Does the K162 spawn when you jump through the hole or can probes detect it before then?

Does the life of the wormhole now start when you jump through or, as at present, when you initiate warp to the grid it's on?

Currently, when you initiate warp to a signature you spawn the K162 signature on the other side (able to be scanned).

Does the K162 spawn when you jump through the hole or can probes detect it before then?

Does the life of the wormhole now start when you jump through or, as at present, when you initiate warp to the grid it's on?

There will be far fewer incoming connections from k-space, as more people will warp the wormhole, look at what space is on the other side, and choose not to jump through.

This will reduce the connectedness of w-space more generally.

So the only change that has been made is to when the K162 signature is visible or scannable. Wormhole lifetime still begins as soon as someone initiates warp to its grid.

This is the only thing I'd worry about. W-space will become much less interconnected with this.

There will be far fewer incoming connections from k-space, as more people will warp the wormhole, look at what space is on the other side, and choose not to jump through.

This will reduce the connectedness of w-space more generally.

I have to agree with this.

I get what you are going for. You want to keep the discovery scanner up and you don't want to go back to the old system.

This is just patchwork trying to hobble that system together so its viable in wormhole space.
.... it is not.

1) Set it so that when a new wormhole appears, it spawns on both sides.
2) Don't show wormholes on the discovery scanner at all (make people probe out the system to find them).

You get more setup, more interaction, more varied gameplay. The old system worked for a reason.

You are not going to get people to give up on it.

I think you should look at timers/ not applying this to K space wormholes. The vast majority of k spaces we find are K162s, and those will stop spawning since K-space residents rarely care about the WH, they see if its a shortcut, maybe goes where they want but rarely ever jump in.

Id hazard a guess that 90% of null--> WH space connections never open after this change, probably even higher.

Yes BUT give them short timer (10-20 minutes) after which the K162 side spawns anyway, regardless of being jumped through or even had a warp initiated to. Otherwise we will end up with massive amounts of unspawned holes. It would also fix already existing issue with people leaving their holes unspawned when farming.

I have to agree with this.

I get what you are going for. You want to keep the discovery scanner up and you don't want to go back to the old system.

This is just patchwork trying to hobble that system together so its viable in wormhole space.
.... it is not.

1) Set it so that when a new wormhole appears, it spawns on both sides.
2) Don't show wormholes on the discovery scanner at all (make people probe out the system to find them).

You get more setup, more interaction, more varied gameplay. The old system worked for a reason.

You are not going to get people to give up on it.

This is the only thing I'd worry about. W-space will become much less interconnected with this.

In fact, I've just read all of the planned W-space changes for the Hyperion release, and as a continuous w-space dweller for the past 5 years (since Apoc), I have to say there's nothing at all in the list that excites me or makes me want to stay in w-space. Where's the new content, such as more challenging Sleepers which can attack anywhere in system? More varied and interesting radar/mag (sorry - "relic/data") sites? Or game changing additions such as ice belts and moon mining in w-space? Or new modules that let you influence the mass limits or lifetime of a wormhole? There are just a ton of things that could be done to spruce up w-space, without wrecking what has worked very well for the past 5 years, as the current proposals will certainly do.

:-(

There will be far fewer incoming connections from k-space, as more people will warp the wormhole, look at what space is on the other side, and choose not to jump through.

This will reduce the connectedness of w-space more generally.

silly string

Do you have any idea on the potential server load of simultaneously spawning, linking and loading every single k-w, w-k and w-w space connection?

We fly fictional space ships because we don't have real ones yet. We grid WHs because it saves server computation and space too.

Try tempering what you ask for with what is possible.

1) Set it so that when a new wormhole appears, it spawns on both sides.

Would it be possible for it to be made scannable when a ship lands on grid with the wormhole rather than on first jump. The time difference would be very small, but the difference that the people in the parent hole can't just warp to the wormhole and start it's life cycle without ever making it scannable on the other side. I feel that makes things a little bit too safe for wormhole residents in general, even though I am on myself.

Wow....I didnt even think of how much of a pain in the arse it is going to be finding high sec and low sec connections.

Absolutely the worst idea.

Please explain how does someone see if it's a shortcut without actually jumping through, and thus activating it?

Also, unoccupied wh's will never have the k162's open, decreasing wh connectivity.

There will be far fewer incoming connections from k-space, as more people will warp the wormhole, look at what space is on the other side, and choose not to jump through.

This will reduce the connectedness of w-space more generally.

I like the idea that the attacker gets just as much time as the defender now when opening up a new wh. I just hope that the new random wormholes will make up for the fact that people won't open wh's by jumping through them all the time. If not you may concider adding a timer after the wh spawned to go ahead and open up the k162.

I think only time will show if this is good or bad. I believe it will decrease the connectivity of higher class WHs to k-space because people are generaly "scared" of c5 and c6 residents. This may not be true for null sec but definitely is for low and high.

On the other hand it gives you more time to gather fleet members and less time for the recieving side to react if a k162 appears which could result in more kills. this will probably result in me losing yet another moros :)

Please explain how does someone see if it's a shortcut without actually jumping through, and thus activating it?

But those don't open up now anyway , right? Since there's noone jumping to the initiating end, the K162 never appears.

I agree with the above posters, though I think 4 hours is far, far too long. I would love to see the K162 spawn after 30 minutes or so.

There is a balance between those wishing to do activities such as PI, Mining, running sites, etc etc, 30 minutes means they never have the opportunity to do any of these jobs. They need to earn isk to Pew Pew too. Small corps may only have very few on at different times of day, they simply do not have the resources to deal with that short a timer.

4 hours gives a reasonable time and a reasonable balance but prevents them from just never opening it. It keeps the balance of K162 and It preserves the balance that CCP have tried to maintain.

If their home Static can never be isolated even for a short time, they will just move out, and consider they now have wandering frigate holes and C4's now have a second hole to contend with.

They still need to be alert and aware to contend with these. If people are always in the POS there is no content.

The desirability or lack of, with Making holes instaspawn is another argument for another day. 30 minutes is effectively that.

I would suggest that four hours after the signature spawn of the static meaning when it is available in the source system, even if unwarped to it becomes visible as a k999 until jumped, and visible from the both sides and useable. After it is jumped it restores to it's original designation.

Effects:- designation clearly identifies it's status.
No reduction overall in traffic.
No more never opening statics.

current system - on warp to, k162 becomes visible.
--my proposal:
on warp, start timer. (random timer, some arbitrary minimum time, to some maximum time before spawning on the other side)
IF jump comes first, ignore timer and generate K162.
IF NO jump, once the timer expires, generate K162.

source keeps advantage, as (apparently) preferred by most every post I've seen.
destination still gets it's K162 connection, solving the "connectivity will suffer" complaint.

This has to be the best change of all. I see now downside to this expansion at all.


Ship it.

If this expansion can make Winthorp happy, CCP must be doing something right. Either that or he's actually CCP Fozzie and he's bought a small island with confiscated RMT money and filled it with hookers and blow.

A valid point - I guess adding some kind of timer that eventually spawns it anyhow would make this work in both directions - reducing the time someone has to respond to a new k162 if its being used as a means for hunting targets but without impacting on the connectivity aspect if its not immediately used as a tool for pvp.

...

Related to this, please also change the type of Ore sites back to signatures, instead of anomalies.

There is a slight advantage to the aggressor here. I'd say either 1.) Allow the WH to spawn on both sides without anyone warping to it. 2) Leave it the way it currently is. 3) Add local to W Space or a POS module that scans the system creating a local. 4) A wormhole generator that creates a random K space (i.e Null, Low, High), seeing that W space will have less connections to K space due to people being afraid to enter.

Removing all opportunity with a zero or short timer will not lead to additional PvP, It will simply ensure that people are forced to run missions in Hisec or do incursions for their income or other Kspace activities, and they will only come home to log off.

so the question is do we :-

A. want more interaction and life in Jspace, or do we
B. just want to drive off anyone who wishes to earn, live and die in sub C5 Jspace?

If you ask for short timers, you are arguing for the latter.

I love your options... It reminded me of "Are you pro-choice, or are you against women's rights?" LOL

We run sites almost every single night in low class wormholes with open holes. If you learn to wh you don't need your holes closed all the time.

Are you on your own? or with one or two others? because many low class residents out of TZ or mid week, have to deal with this reality. tell me how learning to wormhole will help them when they never have a closed static? and I don't mean 2 or 3 players with 5 alts each.

when running sites I'm typically alone, or one other guy. We have multiple toons of course, but who in their right mind actually thinks they can play Eve with one account? It cost at least 30.00 a month to play Eve!

fair enough, Jspace is only for those who have 3 toons. I understand.

I had a crazyish idea that might fit as a compromise. If someone else has this idea, then great on you, great minds think alike.

Keep the new changes coming out but make a new set of wanderer wormholes that go from system to system and has a VERY short duration (4 hours at most) that spawn both sides simultaneously and both have what used to be the sig 10 size signature (i.e. VERY easy to find.) Could even have a lore thing go with it. What Eve-Gate's collapse effect unique?


Even make things more interesting have 2 or 3 (or 4-5?) per system. Wormhole space gets a bit more connected but NOT static and it changes rapidly. Could even center all these extra wanderers on Class 4 systems.

Might make things more interesting or more frustrating. Feel free to take this idea and run with it.

(For the TL;DR Crowd)

New set of "wandering Wormholes" that appear on both sides regardless of someone scanning the signature down. Signature will be as strong as a K162. Short Duration of 4 hours.

The reason for suggesting a four hour timer, if un-jumped, is it gives a small window of opportunity to run sites, mine, gas, do Pi and all the other reasons, why a small corp might wish to leave their static closed.
With a very short timer, all their choice to conduct these activities would be removed.

Some may believe that is a desirable goal and some do not. That is an entirely different issue and CCP were avoiding this issue at this time when setting their design for this.

The suggestion of a four hour timer does not challenge this decision, but instead, eliminates an unfortunate side effect.
That is its only goal.
All the K162s will with this eventually spawn, so no loss of K162s and no removal of reasonable choice from the occupants of the statics.

That change make high risk for c5 ratters. It can lead c5 resident to move out of wh because it's too risky to get ganked by fleet of t3.

I'm as c2 resident for my all time i spend with that game think it's bad idea too. Nullsec players don;t even bother to look on new sig. That k162 can lead, as few of players sad, to block new connections for us. Many of wh's are non occupied. That means if noone from other side scan in and jump to it we will never get that connection it will make more diffuciult to find new wh's with for example high sec connection. Which are quite rare for now specially that lucky near jita/amarr.

Idea of 30 min delay or even 20 it's great solution. If new sig spawn it takes 1-2 min to scan it. 5-7 to get all ready and you have plenty of time to jump and gank all on the other side.

If you make that way which you proposed it's only make us wormholers to suffer with finding new connections.
Take for example pod express to high sec. Now it take sometimes 1-2 day for high sec enternance in future it will get more difficult to get back to action.

-1:
This is 100% anti-PVE, and will make it almost impossible to have any security at all in WHs.

Perhaps if you allowed players to warp to the WH and it didn't spawn K162, but then after a second, or third or fifth warp to the WH it would, that would make huge fleets less likely to gather up and then explode into a system, killing everybody.

Or allow it to not spawn for 5 minutes and/or 5 warps to the WH - if you want to scout it down, and see what type it is, you can. If you want to pop 50 ships through it to gank whoever is on the other side with 0 warning, you can't

PVPers will fight PVPers whenever they can, or at least when it looks fair.. but PVE players will just die in droves - driving them out of WHs where CCP has a terrible lack of interesting PVE content. This is yet another "get in a huge corp or die" patch, it seems

Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far. Keep it coming.

We completely agree that the potential decrease in available connections (especially to K-space) is an issue to consider heavily. Thanks to all of you who have brought it up.

We're doing some investigating into setting a timer that will make the sig visible eventually even if nobody travels through it, and we'll let you know what we decide.

Why is this change being made? When scouting an unstable wormhole you warp to it, bookmark it while approaching and then jump. In a covert ops frig the reduced warning for the hunted parties from this change is a matter of seconds.

If the scouts are warping to the unstable wormhole, bookmarking it and then continuing to scout the current system rather than jumping through they're doing it wrong. They should bookmark the multiple unstable wormhole sigs (named differently so that nobody uses that bookmark for travel) then after scanning all sigs they should warp to the sig bookmark, remove the bookmark while in warp, upon landing bookmark the wormhole and jump through.

I don't see why this change is needed. Don't compensate for bad scouts with game mechanic changes.

Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far. Keep it coming.

We completely agree that the potential decrease in available connections (especially to K-space) is an issue to consider heavily. Thanks to all of you who have brought it up.

We're doing some investigating into setting a timer that will make the sig visible eventually even if nobody travels through it, and we'll let you know what we decide.

Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far. Keep it coming.

We completely agree that the potential decrease in available connections (especially to K-space) is an issue to consider heavily. Thanks to all of you who have brought it up.

We're doing some investigating into setting a timer that will make the sig visible eventually even if nobody travels through it, and we'll let you know what we decide.

Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far. Keep it coming.

We completely agree that the potential decrease in available connections (especially to K-space) is an issue to consider heavily. Thanks to all of you who have brought it up.

We're doing some investigating into setting a timer that will make the sig visible eventually even if nobody travels through it, and we'll let you know what we decide.

The real concern is one that was introduced with Odyssey in the first place: instant and free intel about what is happening in W-space. We know this is something that clearly concerns you guys given primarily the removal of API kill info from W-space. This change addresses the symptom, safety for the PvE fleets, but not the underlying root issue. It also adds issues of its own.

The real concern is one that was introduced with Odyssey in the first place: instant and free intel about what is happening in W-space. We know this is something that clearly concerns you guys given primarily the removal of API kill info from W-space. This change addresses the symptom, safety for the PvE fleets, but not the underlying root issue. It also adds issues of its own.

In wormhole space, what we want, what you guys verbalize on the forums, and what the lore seems to support, is more unknown in W-space. Applied to this situation and signatures and the Discovery Scanner in particular, is that sigs and anomalies at 0% should not appear until scanned. Whether in the overlay in space, or whether in the scanner window, it should require probes to identify signatures in W-space. A value of 0% means you don't know anything about it, including that it even exists.

Only in W-space. Everywhere else, this is fine. It encourages exploration, and it encourages people to be exposed to wormholes more and more, ultimately leading to the increased traffic we saw when Odyssey landed.

W-space, however, should maintain its reputation for being a challenge and for being a place of unknowns. What challenge is there if you know, jumping in, what is there and what isn't unless you can already warp to it?

Because of the concerns over loss of connectivity in W-space from this, the planned change should not go into effect. Instead, as we have requested, the Discovery Scanner and the system overlay should be adjusted.

Because it would be different, some notice in the scanner window indicating that the scanner is not completely functional in W-space should be made, with the suggestion of dropping probes to fully recon the system.


The reason the timer option is bad, and that this whole idea should be scrapped, is that it removes risk. If I log into my C5 system, and I'm the first one online today and getting prepared for our farming session for the night, I'll scan the system. If I see only one wormhole, I could warp to it, see that it hasn't begun its natural cycle (or see that it has), and have a reasonable idea of whether the K162 exists, having a reasonable idea of my level of safety. I could also warp to additional wormholes, see that they are random outbound holes and thus also likely safe, and ignore them.

If, instead, I know that by warping to it that I will spawn the K162, I'm faced with a dilemna (ie, an interesting choice): do I warp to it, possibly spawning it, to verify that it hasn't already been opened, or do I take the chance that someone hasn't rolled into my system while no one was on, opened it, and then rolled off, leaving my now-opened static as the only wormhole in the system? What about that second wormhole? Is it a K162 or is it a random outbound? I have to warp to it, opening it, to find out.

Suddenly there is risk added that has less chance of existing with this change, and will most likely lead to collapsing that hole, also possibly leading to explosions.


Related to this, please also change the type of Ore sites back to signatures, instead of anomalies.

Would it be possible for it to be made scannable when a ship lands on grid with the wormhole rather than on first jump. The time difference would be very small, but the difference that the people in the parent hole can't just warp to the wormhole and start it's life cycle without ever making it scannable on the other side. I feel that makes things a little bit too safe for wormhole residents in general, even though I am on myself.

Because ist not made to compemsate bad Scout, but to give pvp fleets better time to prepair for rushing into a hole. Forget the Scout. Just wait until all fleet members arrive at the hole and then jump into with the whole fleet. 1 Bubble + 1 dps in each belt and each combat site and catch what is possible...

Well I liked the old mechanic when signatures did not appear in dscan at all and we used deep space probes.

We're doing some investigating into setting a timer that will make the sig visible eventually even if nobody travels through it, and we'll let you know what we decide.

Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far. Keep it coming.

We completely agree that the potential decrease in available connections (especially to K-space) is an issue to consider heavily. Thanks to all of you who have brought it up.

We're doing some investigating into setting a timer that will make the sig visible eventually even if nobody travels through it, and we'll let you know what we decide.

-1:
This is 100% anti-PVE, and will make it almost impossible to have any security at all in WHs.

Perhaps if you allowed players to warp to the WH and it didn't spawn K162, but then after a second, or third or fifth warp to the WH it would, that would make huge fleets less likely to gather up and then explode into a system, killing everybody.

Or allow it to not spawn for 5 minutes and/or 5 warps to the WH - if you want to scout it down, and see what type it is, you can. If you want to pop 50 ships through it to gank whoever is on the other side with 0 warning, you can't

PVPers will fight PVPers whenever they can, or at least when it looks fair.. but PVE players will just die in droves - driving them out of WHs where CCP has a terrible lack of interesting PVE content. This is yet another "get in a huge corp or die" patch, it seems

As of Hyperion, we are planning to have K162 signatures appear as soon as the first player jumps through their wormhole connection.

I for one like this change.
Kudos.

Those talking about loss of w-space connectivity may have missed the "More and New Randomly Spawning Wormholes" and "Second Static for Class 4 Wormholes" parts.

this is another great change for the upcoming nullsec patch. this will allow us to make better use of all the wormholes we get in our ratting system (from that wh spawning upgrade) for both killing farming wormholers while at the same time keeping our ratters safe if we don't want to pvp.

+1 from me.

also what is all these wh people doing commenting on a nullsec patch?

No. I am quite sure you misunderstood that.
WHs originating from W-space to 0.0 will now only spawn as someone jumps through. So when you are happy to kill wormhole farmes they / we are happy to do the same thing with your ratters in 0.0

This change is good it restores balance between hunter and prey.
I would rather have the situation before oddesey but i take this.
The timers for the spawn of the k162 as sugested will be quite important though.
To less they prey will be hurt to much, to high and pve will be to easy.
My best geuss is between 1-4 hours.

Why is this change being made? When scouting an unstable wormhole you warp to it, bookmark it while approaching and then jump. In a covert ops frig the reduced warning for the hunted parties from this change is a matter of seconds.

If the scouts are warping to the unstable wormhole, bookmarking it and then continuing to scout the current system rather than jumping through they're doing it wrong. They should bookmark the multiple unstable wormhole sigs (named differently so that nobody uses that bookmark for travel) then after scanning all sigs they should warp to the sig bookmark, remove the bookmark while in warp, upon landing bookmark the wormhole and jump through.

I don't see why this change is needed. Don't compensate for bad scouts with game mechanic changes.

As a smallish C5 corporation trying to grow this change is quite difficult for us to deal with. We actively dscan/probe during site operations and generally (with the current system) if a competent group rolls into us we can be tackled before exiting siege. With this change, despite being actively looking for new signatures, we are given even less response time to deal with the impending threat.

On the flip side of this, for people running sites who are not locked in siege, its all too easy to just POS back up when a new signature appears.

I would advocate a return to the old system (as I'm sure quite a few others would support) but with a slight tweak to allow for signatures appearing in the scanner:

1. New K162 signatures appear when someone warps to the wormhole (as it currently does).
2. The delay before these appear is down to the pilot:
2a. If the pilot has probes launched and is scanning, the signature is picked up on the next cycle end.
2b. If the pilot is simply using the overlay with no probes, the signature is automatically detected after about a minute.

I believe this both rewards vigilance but at the same time isn't a significant nerf or buff.

anything past 5 minutes wont make a difference. if you are rage rolling and hunting farmers why on earth would you wait even 1minute on the hole? you rage roll, fleet warp your entire fleet including caps on to the hole and you have Invulnerability for however long this 'timer' is set. what you are suggesting is 1 to 4 hours of Invulnerability from the guys on the other side. and once you do jump your scouts through its a moot point anyways and the guys on the other side still needs to scan down and form up / send out pings for the new sig so you are STILL safe.

looking at the suggestions it looks almost like the pvp guys are more risk averse than the farmers hahaha!

actually with a zero min timer the pvp guys already have a HUGE advantage as if they fleet warp with caps they can close the hole before the guys on the other side have even SCANNED DOWN THE SIG.

holy risk averse pvp batman. no wonder they want to implement the mass based rolling thingy. they just gave 100% safe pvp to the people that need it the least.

never knew you guys were such cowards hahaha!

Yeah, please don't add a timer for a fresh unscanned wormhole static. With all the other lower mass wormholes spawning it will only make things that much more difficult.

So the only change that has been made is to when the K162 signature is visible or scannable. Wormhole lifetime still begins as soon as someone initiates warp to its grid.

This is still quite bad on its own because it will mean that the effective lifetime of some connections will be far less than it would have been otherwise (think empire connections to 'deadly unknown' that is only jumped through after 8 hours of first being warped to).

I'm pretty sure you misunderstand the change as proposed as it relates to hole rolling (ie - this really doesn't relate to hole rolling). I'm equally certain that you misunderstand the change as proposed as it relates to PvP (ie - this really doesn't relate to PvP directly).
Furthermore - the PvP groups are the ones requesting that the K162 spawns at some point, regardless of whether or not someone jumps that hole. Under the current devblog proposal those K162 spawns don't ever happen if the other side isn't jumped, thereby reducing overall connections. We've been pretty vocal about ensuring that they spawn somehow. Hardly the "anti-pvp" response you're implying.

Wipe your chin, there's some drool there.

I promise that I'll be doing my part to open every wormhole I see.

Well the change would be that Opening would require jumping through them.

If you are not stealth that means they may see you your ship type etc. Minor bit of intelligence.



But a bigger impact would be that as proposed WH systems could be left SAFE from gankers (BOO! HISS!) for mining and sleepers

#1 you don't open your new statics and outbound WH until business absolutely requires

#2 you have no K162 showing and all signatures are account


(ROFLMAO -- usually at least 1 guy in corp with more than 10 members that gets severe virtual claustrophobia if its not open though. They feel compelled to jump out for a couple minutes for no reason but to ensure it will open even under threats of death)

Love most of the WH changes, not to sure of this one.

It just does not make sense at it's core, and I do not think the end result will add so much to gameplay that it justifies making something so illogical.

1) Game-Play / Role-Pay / Logic Bomb
- No wormhole exists with only one opening.
- No end should be the "first" or "primary."
- If a WH adjoins two (or more) places, why is any side artificially barred from discovering the hole before the other?
- How is the magical appearance of the other side to scanners justified in a role-play sense?
- Should not all pilots in EVE be constantly aware of their surroundings, especially in the space they choose to play in. (i.e. presence / lack of other intelligence tools (local) in that space should not be a consideration.)

2) The "Problem"
The Blog mentions that the scan overlay enhanced this problem. This is incorrect. the scan overlay created the problem. The solution is as artificial as the problem. The scan overlay was a good idea that was (is) overzealous and poorly implemented.


TL;DR - No Bueno on many levels

wow, I don't think you can misinterpret my post any more if you tried. congrats.

We're arguing against CCP's initial bear friendly idea of never spawn a K162 unless the hole is jumped. How you mistake that for "risk averse PvPers" is beyond me. We'd rather the wh spawn just as it does now. Otherwise (and as proposed) it IS a safer thing for the bears as they don't run the risk of opening holes they don't want to open).

Good grief.

I don't think it was CCP's intention that k162s never opened unless jumped I believe they just either omitted to add further information on the dev blog as to the nature of those mechanics or hadn't got that far along the development of the feature yet to have a method in mind (or decided on a specific solution).

Nope - that needs to happen and thankfully the devs are looking for ways to ensure that it does. Wspace doesn't get to control what spawns where and we're losing some control over how and what we can cycle/respawn. 00 doesn't get to see a wh, say nah that's not the flavor I'm looking for (read: not a direct HS connection "cuz mah moongoo") and simply ignore it without any exposure at all.

Welcome to a new and more connected New Eden. See you soon, toodles.

I can just agree with most People here stating that it's not thought trough.

A wormhole is connection between 2 Systems. That's fact. And as Laurent mentioned above, having a Door visible only from one side is a stupid idea. That's against any logic and is neither a technical requirement by the game-engine nor balances gameplay.

Proposed Change:
If you spawn a wormhole (as soon as it appears on discovery scanner): spawn it simultaneosly on both sides. Then both sides are in exactly the same situation. That's fair.
Additionally, remove the information from WH-info-window regarding the system at the other end. That makes things more interesting for everyone. Also remove the WH-Name like N123. If you scan down a wormhole, you should have to dive in to get intel, not just easily warp to it.

Also make Wormholes even easier/harder (than it is now) to scan depending on their Source/Destination:
Highsec: easy going
Low-Sec & C1/C2: normal (Standard frig & Basic skills)
Null-Sec & C3/C4: requires some serious skills and faction probes or a scanner frig
C5: requires some serious skills AND a scanner frig (or maxed out skill)
C6: requires really high skills, scanner frig and proper Equipment (faction-probes, scan-Arrays in midslot).
Whatever (Source or Destination) is harder to scan determines the signature-size of both ends of the wormhole. Again, both sides are in the same situation when it comes to scanning it down.

The experienced scanner would probably be able to estimate Destination System by the signature-size of the anomaly. That's a Feature, not a bug.

Because apparently, PvE needed more smacking in wormholes, dont mind crap loot, bad prices and ever present danger. Add more danger!

Unless the anomalies need to be probed or similar, its one-side advantage. When someone jumps it takes you few seconds to figure out, where to warp and catch stuff. Defender can only be - look a hole, a dictor. Time to buy new ships.

I guess thats a PVP. Will SURELY help populate space too.

-1 on this change. With current mechanics its already tough to escape competent ppl. Unless the dscan or anoms are changed, its pointless to even go farm. Or wait, maybe we will just do the 200km warp from the field (you know marauders get stuck so, more distance).

I can just agree with most People here stating that it's not thought trough.

A wormhole is connection between 2 Systems. That's fact. And as Laurent mentioned above, having a Door visible only from one side is a stupid idea. That's against any logic and is neither a technical requirement by the game-engine nor balances gameplay.

Proposed Change:
If you spawn a wormhole (as soon as it appears on discovery scanner): spawn it simultaneosly on both sides. Then both sides are in exactly the same situation. That's fair.
Additionally, remove the information from WH-info-window regarding the system at the other end. That makes things more interesting for everyone. Also remove the WH-Name like N123. If you scan down a wormhole, you should have to dive in to get intel, not just easily warp to it.

Also make Wormholes even easier/harder (than it is now) to scan depending on their Source/Destination:
Highsec: easy going
Low-Sec & C1/C2: normal (Standard frig & Basic skills)
Null-Sec & C3/C4: requires some serious skills and faction probes or a scanner frig
C5: requires some serious skills AND a scanner frig (or maxed out skill)
C6: requires really high skills, scanner frig and proper Equipment (faction-probes, scan-Arrays in midslot).
Whatever (Source or Destination) is harder to scan determines the signature-size of both ends of the wormhole. Again, both sides are in the same situation when it comes to scanning it down.

The experienced scanner would probably be able to estimate Destination System by the signature-size of the anomaly. That's a Feature, not a bug.

when i lived in null i was shocked at how many times i heard dont go in that wh it is active

i had come from a c5/c5 so active holes was nothing new to me but it scared the hell ouf of a lot of null bears

Overall this is a good change. It gives something for everyone. For the PVP'ers they no longer have to worry about early wh detection signs while trying to hunt people. For the PVE'ers they no longer have to roll wh's just because someone "accidentally" warped to the wrong signature.

Overall this is a good change. It gives something for everyone. For the PVP'ers they no longer have to worry about early wh detection signs while trying to hunt people. For the PVE'ers they no longer have to roll wh's just because someone "accidentally" warped to the wrong signature.

I see no area to ask this specific question related to worm hole changes.

Any thoughts about allowing X Large Assembly arrays for Titan builds?

I know those require Sov, however, taking the requirement off if its inside a WH?

Not sure how much support or dislike there is for this.

As still others have stated for the millionth time: rollback the previous changes and get rid of the automated scanning in WH space. it should be dark and scary there and unless you are willing to uncloak and put out probes then you will not know half of what is in a system. Make sigs have to be scanned again. That was a great system and stood the test of time. Not sure why you will not even entertain turning back the hand of time and admitting that the old system worked and was better. Nothing I have seen deployed or mentioned works as well as it did.

Can at least the d-scan be removed in WHs or anomalies be scannable so theres some time to react? Jumping interceptor through gives you nearly no time to react unless you furiousl click spam dscan.

You don't even need to rollback the changes. Let K-space have the easy-to-do stuff.

The server has to do work to come up with the sigs to show in the scanner window. Queries against the database determine what gets shown.

The database tracks what type of signature is in any given system at any given time as well as tracking what each player knows about ... unless the server is trusting the client for that (hopefully not!). The server also tracks where you are located so it knows which signatures to pull; K-space is one universe ID, W-space is another; there is NO way to get the two confused.

A few lines of code extra (maybe) to set up the proper SQL statement(s) to identify universe and scan status, and you have your list of sigs. Then there's the testing and debugging, etc., but there are not NEARLY the code changes Fozzie is proposing in the intro post unless CCP's programmers are completely incompetent, which I find hard to believe.

What would change is that people would need to drop probes again and have a dedicated scanner again. I don't see that as a bad thing: the vigilant are rewarded, the slackers are punished. That is (or was) the rule of W-space.


W-space is (supposed to be) dangerous. If you are diligent, and are careful, you should be rewarded with success, no matter whether you are the hunter or whether you are the intended prey. Your scout should be watching dscan and looking for probes, while your farmers gather in the Sleeper loot.

Lately, I've seen some really creative approaches by site runners to avoid combat. That's a good thing. It makes the hunt much more rewarding.

Maybe you have not lived in W-space long time. With Odyssey, CCP made it Nullsec-easy to avoid incoming threats. We are asking for a return to W-space difficulty. And don't worry, those of us who hunt here also carebear here. The changes will affect us just as much as they affect you.

(We are also asking for low-class rewards to be adjusted upward and mining sites to be returned to scan sites as well)

This does not address the issue of people isolating themselves by not even warping to their fresh static at all.

If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, it will act in the same way that it does now. However since players will now get a less extreme early warning when a new connection that exits in their system appears and we're adding more random wormhole connections, this should help a little bit with the isolation problem.

If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, it will act in the same way that it does now. However since players will now get a less extreme early warning when a new connection that exits in their system appears and we're adding more random wormhole connections, this should help a little bit with the isolation problem.

So it will not spawn the other end? thus if I close both holes in my static, i get dead end and nice time to farm?

If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, it will act in the same way that it does now. However since players will now get a less extreme early warning when a new connection that exits in their system appears and we're adding more random wormhole connections, this should help a little bit with the isolation problem.

]

As a thought, what if the "invisible" K162 could be Combat-Scanned upon spawning. Some form of "proto-wormhole" beacon that had an extremely small signature and would require a very high-level combat scanner to 100% it.

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~Kyra

So it will not spawn the other end? thus if I close both holes in my static, i get dead end and nice time to farm?