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Hellois Dawn
The Outlet
3
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Posted - 2015.03.05 11:12:50 -
[331] - Quote
I bought my first plex for 319 million isk and i know people who bought 90 days for 180 million |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
110
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Posted - 2015.03.05 12:09:46 -
[332] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:erg cz wrote:There is 12 sell orders in Jita with price under 800 milions atm. And median price keep falling even quicker. PLEX price is droping, several months in a raw already, despite all smart talks about "economy implosion". Simply because PLEX is bound to real money. It is not some virtual pixel item, it is a bit more, than part of Eve economy. CCP loses money on high PLEX price and they want their money back. How much is CCP losing? I'd guess that your argument is that because PLEX nets you ~800 m isk that people are buying less because the PLEX is getting them more than when PLEX bought 500 m isk. I would argue that because PLEX gets more isk, it incentivized people to buy it with real money because it gives them more isk. Unless the $ price for PLEX has changed, the real world money is now buying more. The question would then be at what level is there "equilibrium"?
I would argue that PLEX bought does not = profit for CCP until it is utilized. Remember they are a Corporation that has to follow accounting standards and practices.
When PLEX is high, people unsub alts, it is that simple. The need for isk exists whether PLEX is high or not, people who buy isk are going to do it anyways. The real pressure on PLEX is number of accounts using it and number of stored or "invested" Plex.
If you get rid of Plex-Isk direct storage, the price drops, then more accounts re-sub, then CCP gets more money. |
hey friends
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.03.05 13:29:19 -
[333] - Quote
[/quote]
I would argue that PLEX bought does not = profit for CCP until it is utilized. Remember they are a Corporation that has to follow accounting standards and practices.
[/quote]
not sure if youre trolling or what
but by that logic lets say i sell sodapop irl you buy one but i dont profit until you open it and drink it |
Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd Nulli Secunda
352
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Posted - 2015.03.05 14:00:04 -
[334] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:When PLEX is high, people unsub alts, it is that simple.
Market McSelling Alt wrote:If you get rid of Plex-Isk direct storage, the price drops, then more accounts re-sub, then CCP gets more money. So your claim is, that people will unsub alts, if they can't afford to buy game time with ISK and will re-sub, when PLEX prices are low enough that their ISK is enough to buy them game-time again. Roger that.
But what I don't understand is, how you believe that CCP's (real life) cashflow is affected by people who can't be arsed to give (real life) money to CCP anyway.
CCP gets cash from people who are willing to give real currency money to CCP and buy PLEX. And probably most of the PLEX bought from CCP with real life money are sold to other players for ISK via the ingame markets. Prices are solely driven by demand and supply. People who will unsub because of high PLEX prices will lower demand a bit, which has the potential to lower prices a bit. But that's it. CCP will neither get more or less money because of that.
J'Poll:
EVE doesn't hand out cookies to you.
EVE kicks you down, steals your cookie and then laughs at you for bringing a cookie in the first place.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
111
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Posted - 2015.03.05 15:15:21 -
[335] - Quote
Myriad Blaze wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:When PLEX is high, people unsub alts, it is that simple. Market McSelling Alt wrote:If you get rid of Plex-Isk direct storage, the price drops, then more accounts re-sub, then CCP gets more money. So your claim is, that people will unsub alts, if they can't afford to buy game time with ISK and will re-sub, when PLEX prices are low enough that their ISK is enough to buy them game-time again. Roger that. But what I don't understand is, how you believe that CCP's (real life) cashflow is affected by people who can't be arsed to give (real life) money to CCP anyway. CCP gets cash from people who are willing to give real currency money to CCP and buy PLEX. And probably most of the PLEX bought from CCP with real life money are sold to other players for ISK via the ingame markets. Prices are solely driven by demand and supply. People who will unsub because of high PLEX prices will lower demand a bit, which has the potential to lower prices a bit. But that's it. CCP will neither get more or less money because of that.
Because the volume of PLEX rarely moves much. The same amount is being bought from CCP and put on the market every day. The real change has been price. Sure there have been some spikes and dips, but the real kicker is the price has increased over time with little change in volume.
So the only real change is when PLEX = High, investors unload stock (AKA CCP not involved) When price = Low, investors stock up (same amount bought from CCP, but liability increases as game time owed)
CCP has pretty steady sales of Plex, their income however fluctuates based on how many are used. They already stated year over year that stockpiles of PLEX are alarming, and concerning. Their move off the market means the Liability of Plex is not the hedge fund of players, instead we stock AUR which CCP doesn't have to show on their books as game time owed. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
111
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Posted - 2015.03.05 15:16:50 -
[336] - Quote
hey friends wrote:Quote:
I would argue that PLEX bought does not = profit for CCP until it is utilized. Remember they are a Corporation that has to follow accounting standards and practices.
not sure if youre trolling or what but by that logic lets say i sell sodapop irl you buy one but i dont profit until you open it and drink it
You are bad at accounting. When I buy a sodapop you have fulfilled your obligation. Think of PLEX like a giftcard or a prepaid credit card... now apply your wrong logic. |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
209
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Posted - 2015.03.05 18:19:03 -
[337] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:hey friends wrote:Quote:
I would argue that PLEX bought does not = profit for CCP until it is utilized. Remember they are a Corporation that has to follow accounting standards and practices.
not sure if youre trolling or what but by that logic lets say i sell sodapop irl you buy one but i dont profit until you open it and drink it You are bad at accounting. When I buy a sodapop you have fulfilled your obligation. Think of PLEX like a giftcard or a prepaid credit card... now apply your wrong logic. This is exactly why I support the selling of skill remaps for plex. Anything that destroys a plex without redeeming game time is the same as ccp lending money to someone and then that someone says its ok nevermind you can just keep the money, and that will be good for ccp, and more money in their wallet means more development And improvements on eve.
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
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hey friends
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.03.05 19:02:21 -
[338] - Quote
oh my to quote george takei
once someone buys a plex with cash from ccp/vendor ccp has the money end of story
they could care less if you blow it up ,wipe your tears with it or use it for game time
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Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd Nulli Secunda
352
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Posted - 2015.03.05 19:42:36 -
[339] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:CCP has pretty steady sales of Plex, their income however fluctuates based on how many are used. They already stated year over year that stockpiles of PLEX are alarming, and concerning. Their move off the market means the Liability of Plex is not the hedge fund of players, instead we stock AUR which CCP doesn't have to show on their books as game time owed. Ok, I see where you're coming from. However, I think you don't consider some aspects that I would deem important.
What you describe is only an accounting problem. You could also say it's purely cosmetic. CCP already has the money and will keep it. There is no way players can give their PLEX back to CCP and force them to pay real money for it.
Furthermore people with stockpiles of PLEX might stop playing without touching their PLEX. Or they might get banned and get their PLEX confiscated by CCP (I think it's not unreasonable to believe that CCP confiscated a significant number of PLEX when they banned Somer). In these cases it's money for nothing for CCP. They get money but never have to provide any services. And if at one day in the (hopefully) far future CCP decides to shut EVE down, all the stockpiled PLEX will be worthless (more money for nothing for CCP).
J'Poll:
EVE doesn't hand out cookies to you.
EVE kicks you down, steals your cookie and then laughs at you for bringing a cookie in the first place.
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
112
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Posted - 2015.03.05 21:09:46 -
[340] - Quote
hey friends wrote:oh my to quote george takei
once someone buys a plex with cash from ccp/vendor ccp has the money end of story
they could care less if you blow it up ,wipe your tears with it or use it for game time
Too bad they live in the real world and there is a difference between cash accounting and accrual accounting... and CCP is in Iceland so they can't follow the Enron form of accounting.
Just stop and let the big boys talk this one out. |
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hey friends
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.03.05 21:19:51 -
[341] - Quote
how do you measure how big anyone is? im guessing you consider yourself to be a big boy? lots of isk? ive got about 700b i know its not a whole lot but surely id get a seat at the kiddie table |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
112
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Posted - 2015.03.05 22:06:19 -
[342] - Quote
hey friends wrote:how do you measure how big anyone is? im guessing you consider yourself to be a big boy? lots of isk? ive got about 700b i know its not a whole lot but surely id get a seat at the kiddie table
Having isk, or stuff or being physically gifted matters not in a discussion about virtual gift cards and the accounting practices of them.
If you were to make a statement about what you will put your isk into once Plex goes to the AUR market and you cannot directly trade them for isk, then perhaps someone would listen. But making the neanderthal-like claim that money is yours once it hits your wallet (even if it is more like a deposit for services rendered) puts you squarely at the plastic spoon and square colorful plate table. |
Anthar Thebess
958
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Posted - 2015.03.11 14:27:15 -
[343] - Quote
Current plex holders keeping prices up. I know people that have around 4 thousand of plexes they want to sell now. Of course they will not allow for price to drop below the line they bought it in first place , so they are slowly reducing their stock , while keeping price up . There are many more players doing the same thing. Plex prices will slowly move to normal within a year.
Unless CCP add some new stuff that will drive the price up again.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
|
Noonian Enaka
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.03.11 15:27:26 -
[344] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Current plex holders keeping prices up. I know people that have around 4 thousand of plexes they want to sell now.
That is a LOT of bound capital. I am not sure if that amount of capital and it`s associated speculation is healthy for the game economy
I was always under the impression, that there is way too much ISK influx past and present. It`s understandable that peolpe are looking for a hedge to put all that ISK in...but wow...at 750 million per Plex we are talking about 3million millions
Thats enough to **** over any economy. The more I think about it the more I think it would be good if plex would crash overnight down to the 200ish million mark or lower like it used to be. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
117
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Posted - 2015.03.11 15:56:04 -
[345] - Quote
Noonian Enaka wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Current plex holders keeping prices up. I know people that have around 4 thousand of plexes they want to sell now.
That is a LOT of bound capital. I am not sure if that amount of capital and it`s associated speculation is healthy for the game economy I was always under the impression, that there is way too much ISK influx past and present. It`s understandable that peolpe are looking for a hedge to put all that ISK in...but wow...at 750 million per Plex we are talking about 3million millions Thats enough to **** over any economy. The more I think about it the more I think it would be good if plex would crash overnight down to the 200ish million mark or lower like it used to be.
In 2013 CCP said they had over 10,000 Plex sitting in holding accounts from confiscated banned characters. CCP also admitted that most of the Plex sold on market ends up sitting unused in character hangers.
I think they have some very valid reasons for taking Plex out of the game and into the AUR market. Many sad speculators when this happens. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
519
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Posted - 2015.03.11 17:00:49 -
[346] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: I think they have some very valid reasons for taking Plex out of the game and into the AUR market. Many sad speculators when this happens.
You do realize that you can already convert PLEX to AUR, right? So the only difference would be that the material item PLEX is removed, so sure none will get blown up, but otherwise everything is exactly the same. Unless they don't make AUR tradable, which would be silly. Stop saying silly things please.
.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
117
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Posted - 2015.03.11 21:01:25 -
[347] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: I think they have some very valid reasons for taking Plex out of the game and into the AUR market. Many sad speculators when this happens.
You do realize that you can already convert PLEX to AUR, right? So the only difference would be that the material item PLEX is removed, so sure none will get blown up, but otherwise everything is exactly the same. Unless they don't make AUR tradable, which would be silly. Stop saying silly things please.
You do realize that removing Plex from the market changes everything. You think Plex will remain a Isk haven when you have to battle both the fluctuating isk prices to AUR and the AUR to Plex market? You think people will store them on their accounts instead of in hangers?
I rather think not, and not being able to trade the margins on the market means less plex upward pressure. It is really not hard to see this. |
erg cz
Tribal Core
145
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Posted - 2015.03.12 09:24:21 -
[348] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Current plex holders keeping prices up. I know people that have around 4 thousand of plexes they want to sell now. Of course they will not allow for price to drop below the line they bought it in first place , so they are slowly reducing their stock , while keeping price up .
And I believe that is the exact reason why there will be some quota, how many PLEXes can be converted into AUR.
If you check the chart with 111 days of PLEX price (http://www.eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=29668#history), you will see not only that it keeps loosing its price, but that there are also jumps in sell volume from 1,5 milions to 4,5 milions and back again. Clear manipulations in desparate attempt to save "investments". |
Noonian Enaka
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.03.12 09:59:46 -
[349] - Quote
erg cz wrote:[quote=Anthar Thebess] If you check the chart with 111 days of PLEX price (http://www.eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=29668#history), you will see not only that it keeps loosing its price, but that there are also jumps in sell volume from 1,5 milions to 4,5 milions and back again. Clear manipulations in desparate attempt to save "investments".
This. It`s what I noticed as well, and it`s not a market I am invested at all. I am just too space poor after a 6 year break to even think about flipping PLEX for Profit.
A quota for conversion would be a possibility, however thats a thin line to tread. If the quota is too low it could lead to mass cancellation. On the other hand people with 4.000+ PLEX in their hands should hopefully be smart enough to have other considerable assets and it shouldn`t really affect them. Even if trillions are lost due to PLEX conversion I would wager the heavy PLEX speculators are the big EVE multi-trillionaires and losing a trillion or two while harsh at first look, shouldnt effect their ability to play or be engaged in large scale markt activites at all. I think there would be more then enough wealth left on those individuals to still screw markets over several times.
The question is, does CCP want to open the can of worms of basically disposessing a "financially powerful" segment of the playerbase from a lot of their wealth for "the good of the game"? It`s an interesting RL analogy. Humongous amounts of wealth concentrated in a few hands with all the potential drawbacks that entails.
We do live in interesting times indeed. I`m eager to see how this all pans out. |
Anthar Thebess
959
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Posted - 2015.03.12 12:22:42 -
[350] - Quote
Look what is happening when plex will fall below 800mil, instantly it is being pulled up. I still wonder why CCP will not make some big sale after sale. High plex prices are bad for eve. People usually use plex to subscribe alt accounts - i know people who where having 4 alt accounts active when plex was around 400mil , and now have just one , and constantly complain how high plex price is now.
They used up more PLEX'es per month and paid more in term of isk. But probably i don't see all data , and my assumption is bad.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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erg cz
Tribal Core
145
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Posted - 2015.03.12 13:25:39 -
[351] - Quote
Noonian Enaka wrote: If the quota is too low it could lead to mass cancellation.
This volume picture (jump 4,5 milions Plexes one day and holding, jump back to1,5 milion and holding level again) clearely points out, that PLEX speculations is not done by group. Most likely it is one player... or two players, who can cooperate really well. Even if those one, two, even ten speculaters rage quit, game will not lose anything, IMHO. |
Anthar Thebess
960
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Posted - 2015.03.12 13:43:34 -
[352] - Quote
X ATM usually have quite big stock of plexes. Could be one of the people.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
|
Noonian Enaka
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2015.03.12 13:59:58 -
[353] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:X ATM usually have quite big stock of plexes. Could be one of the people.
One of those many times I think it is sad that you can not really out down short positions like in the real market. Profit from falling prices! Oh the tears that could be harvested from that. |
Null Infinity
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.04.02 08:28:50 -
[354] - Quote
erg cz wrote:Noonian Enaka wrote: If the quota is too low it could lead to mass cancellation. This volume picture (jump 4,5 milions Plexes one day and holding, jump back to1,5 milion and holding level again) clearely points out, that PLEX speculations is not done by group. Most likely it is one player... or two players, who can cooperate really well. Even if those one, two, even ten speculaters rage quit, game will not lose anything, IMHO.
Kind of sucks to know, that the world econy is in the hand of one or two man, who can do with PLEX whatever they want to do. Right now they are happy with 800 milions, tommorrow it will be 900 if they decide to. And you can not do anything about this... |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2015.04.02 16:43:01 -
[355] - Quote
Null Infinity wrote:erg cz wrote:Noonian Enaka wrote: If the quota is too low it could lead to mass cancellation. This volume picture (jump 4,5 milions Plexes one day and holding, jump back to1,5 milion and holding level again) clearely points out, that PLEX speculations is not done by group. Most likely it is one player... or two players, who can cooperate really well. Even if those one, two, even ten speculaters rage quit, game will not lose anything, IMHO. Kind of sucks to know, that the world econy is in the hand of one or two man, who can do with PLEX whatever they want to do. Right now they are happy with 800 milions, tommorrow it will be 900 if they decide to. And you can not do anything about this...
You could simply not buy PLEX |
Null Infinity
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.04.03 08:12:09 -
[356] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:
You could simply not buy PLEX
But what if I want to sell it? I saw it was like 1 billion per 1 piece not long ago. Now that PLEX holding dude decide to keep it on 800 milions. I really start to think, that the idea with plex converting quota is not that bad after all...
As someone here pointed out PLEX is now one of the key comodite for the whole EVE economy. And if one or two person hold this key, it is not free market any more. |
erg cz
Tribal Core
180
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Posted - 2015.04.03 09:40:42 -
[357] - Quote
erg cz wrote:
This volume picture (jump 4,5 milions Plexes one day and holding, jump back to1,5 milion and holding level again)
Few days ago volume jumped from 1,8 milions to 700 - 800 thousands and holding again... Something is going to happen...
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Null Infinity
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
18
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Posted - 2015.04.14 09:03:44 -
[358] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Look what is happening when plex will fall below 800mil, instantly it is being pulled up.
So now someone seems to decide to push the price over 800. Few dozens of buy orders in JIta just below 800 milions ISK (as we can see last few days) will not let PLEX sell prices fall under 800 milions anymore
New mining menthods: interactive mining
and comet mining
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Shakuul
Infinitus Sapientia
3
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Posted - 2015.04.15 18:55:55 -
[359] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Current plex holders keeping prices up. I know people that have around 4 thousand of plexes they want to sell now. Of course they will not allow for price to drop below the line they bought it in first place , so they are slowly reducing their stock , while keeping price up . There are many more players doing the same thing. Plex prices will slowly move to normal within a year.
Unless CCP add some new stuff that will drive the price up again.
Why would you want to sell 4000 PLEX? What would you do with the ISK? Unless you are doing some sort of massive speculation (in which case you can profitably sell to buy orders) there's no reason to sell. PLEX are by far the best long term store of value in EVE. ISK has inflated significantly (as shown by the price of minerals and the price of PLEX). PLEX, on the other hand, are worth $15 for as long as EVE is worth playing.
You expect PLEX to move back to "normal" but the long run trend in PLEX in nowhere but up, simply because every day it gets a bit easier to make ISK in EVE, but not much easier to make $15. |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
26
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Posted - 2015.04.15 21:25:52 -
[360] - Quote
Shakuul wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Current plex holders keeping prices up. I know people that have around 4 thousand of plexes they want to sell now. Of course they will not allow for price to drop below the line they bought it in first place , so they are slowly reducing their stock , while keeping price up . There are many more players doing the same thing. Plex prices will slowly move to normal within a year.
Unless CCP add some new stuff that will drive the price up again. Why would you want to sell 4000 PLEX? What would you do with the ISK? Unless you are doing some sort of massive speculation (in which case you can profitably sell to buy orders) there's no reason to sell. PLEX are by far the best long term store of value in EVE. ISK has inflated significantly (as shown by the price of minerals and the price of PLEX). PLEX, on the other hand, are worth $15 for as long as EVE is worth playing. You expect PLEX to move back to "normal" but the long run trend in PLEX in nowhere but up, simply because every day it gets a bit easier to make ISK in EVE, but not much easier to make $15.
If the PLEX holders are fearful that the PLEX change will occur and possibly lock PLEX to an account, what are you going to need 4000 months of game time for? |
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