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Xanato Kaso
Kaso Enterprises
19
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Posted - 2014.11.13 12:46:33 -
[1] - Quote
Why are they going up so fast??? Last month when I plexxed my accounts i was getting them for around 780m ea. Now they are running almost 900m!!!! |
Bl1SkR1N
Euphoria Released Triumvirate.
49
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Posted - 2014.11.13 13:00:03 -
[2] - Quote
Too much money poured into economy |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
617
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Posted - 2014.11.13 14:15:31 -
[3] - Quote
Because PLEX are massively underpriced. |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
133
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Posted - 2014.11.13 16:14:09 -
[4] - Quote
Because many players like to play without spending RL cash on EVE. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
622
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Posted - 2014.11.13 16:26:17 -
[5] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Because many players like to play without spending RL cash on EVE. Many people like to have a second account without having to pay two subs. |
RAW23
864
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Posted - 2014.11.13 16:33:17 -
[6] - Quote
They are being very heavily manipulated both up and down but with the overwhelming trend being upwards. In a sense Bobby is right that they are undervalued, in that we obviously haven't yet hit the price beyond which supply will outstrip demand. On the other hand, from another perspective they are very much overpriced as 'plex producers' are willing to sell their product for much, much less. Without heavy manipulation the price would fall to something much nearer the lower levels that the people who create and sell plex would be willing to accept but the traders and medium to long term speculators have stepped into the gap to push prices towards the ceiling that demand will allow.
What I really like about the market at the moment is it's instability as this means margins are frequently opening and closing, making it a fun and dynamic market to watch on a daily basis.
_There are two types of EVE player: _
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
622
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Posted - 2014.11.13 16:43:59 -
[7] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:Without heavy manipulation the price would fall But we are not planning to take our foot off the accelerator any time soon.
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RAW23
864
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Posted - 2014.11.13 16:59:13 -
[8] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:RAW23 wrote:Without heavy manipulation the price would fall But we are not planning to take our foot off the accelerator any time soon.
I believe you
I'm still going to confine myself to cashing out of plexes at the end of any day's trading session, though, as I really don't want to be holding a significant stack overnight when the drop comes, even if it's only a drop to restock.
Now, if I wasn't living hand to mouth and had significant assets to invest then ... well, I'm still not sure. But then, I stayed out of the T2 BPO market for years because I knew a crash was coming. Sadly, by the time the crash did come (five years after I had come to my conclusions) I could have made more than enough profits to have covered the final crash losses. I think I may just be too risk averse
Edit - I also know who to direct my corp-mates to when they are complaining about plex prices
_There are two types of EVE player: _
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
622
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Posted - 2014.11.13 17:17:31 -
[9] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:I stayed out of the T2 BPO market for years because I knew a crash was coming. Sadly, by the time the crash did come (five years after I had come to my conclusions) I could have made more than enough profits to have covered the final crash losses. I think I may just be too risk averse The trick was to use your T2 BPOs as collateral on loans that you use to buy more T2 BPOs.
Someone has to hold the bag, but it doesn't have to be you. |
RAW23
864
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Posted - 2014.11.13 17:43:57 -
[10] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:RAW23 wrote:I stayed out of the T2 BPO market for years because I knew a crash was coming. Sadly, by the time the crash did come (five years after I had come to my conclusions) I could have made more than enough profits to have covered the final crash losses. I think I may just be too risk averse The trick was to use your T2 BPOs as collateral on loans that you use to buy more T2 BPOs. Someone has to hold the bag, but it doesn't have to be you.
I did a fair bit of that with technetium back in the day. Must confess that I did wonder about the ethics of it, though, but since I would always have made good any losses it didn't personally seem to problematic. I suspect other might not have done, though ...
_There are two types of EVE player: _
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
3610
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Posted - 2014.11.13 22:49:33 -
[11] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:RAW23 wrote:I stayed out of the T2 BPO market for years because I knew a crash was coming. Sadly, by the time the crash did come (five years after I had come to my conclusions) I could have made more than enough profits to have covered the final crash losses. I think I may just be too risk averse The trick was to use your T2 BPOs as collateral on loans that you use to buy more T2 BPOs. Someone has to hold the bag, but it doesn't have to be you. I did a fair bit of that with technetium back in the day. Must confess that I did wonder about the ethics of it, though, but since I would always have made good any losses it didn't personally seem too problematic. However, I suspect certain others might have been willing to default ...
Ethics have no place in EVE, they are a weakness.
IRL is very different.
www.minerbumping.com - Mining accidents are on the increase. Don't become a statistic, become a permit holder!
Ganking doesn't need a purpose, the gank is its own purpose.
You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I gank.
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Xanato Kaso
Kaso Enterprises
19
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Posted - 2014.11.14 02:54:05 -
[12] - Quote
I have 7 accounts. its getting rediculous. I have to spend so much time playing the game doing what i dont want just so i can play the game. and each month its costing more and more time. why? cus some buttheads want to have phat bank sucks. |
Signal11th
1467
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Posted - 2014.11.14 10:57:46 -
[13] - Quote
Xanato Kaso wrote:I have 7 accounts. its getting rediculous. I have to spend so much time playing the game doing what i dont want just so i can play the game. and each month its costing more and more time. why? cus some buttheads want to have phat bank sucks.
You have answered your own questions tbh, I have 4 accounts I run one, why? I'm not prepared to put that much time in to plex the other 3 accounts. People need to stop whining about it and either suck it up and pay or lose the accounts for now that they don't need and eventually when the demand falls the price will as well, it's pretty simple.
If you are moaning about plexing 7 accounts but in the end are still paying for the plex you can't complain about ever increasing prices.
There are fairly simple things that CCP could do that would pretty much half the price of plex overnight (e.g time limit on plex) but it won't be in their best interest to do so so don't expect them to do anything about it.
Only players can force a change like anything in life, if enough people stop plexing the price will drop like a stone.
Powered by reaTh Filter V1.23 "All posts by this pilot are personal held views and not representitive of any corp or alliance I am currently a member of. Like I'd give a sh*t anyway.
God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and wo
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Ria Nieyli
22246
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Posted - 2014.11.14 11:03:05 -
[14] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Because PLEX are massively underpriced.
An item that has no inherent ingame cost can never ever be underpriced. The funny part is, that no matter how low the price might be, there will always be people that are falling off the bottom since they can't afford it. I'm watching the effects of the price climb on people with morbid curiosity.
Mirrored eyes
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Jean Luc Lemmont
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
258
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Posted - 2014.11.14 17:05:57 -
[15] - Quote
Personally, I'm loving the current PLEX prices. Since I pay for my subs with RL cash, I just buy PLEX to resell - I haven't had to PVE in months and I can still replace ship losses without issues.
A bitter vet trying to start anew.
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Adunh Slavy
1593
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Posted - 2014.11.14 20:09:54 -
[16] - Quote
Xanato Kaso wrote:I have to spend so much time playing the game ... so i can play the game.
Ok then
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5567
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Posted - 2014.11.14 20:16:43 -
[17] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:RAW23 wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:RAW23 wrote:I stayed out of the T2 BPO market for years because I knew a crash was coming. Sadly, by the time the crash did come (five years after I had come to my conclusions) I could have made more than enough profits to have covered the final crash losses. I think I may just be too risk averse The trick was to use your T2 BPOs as collateral on loans that you use to buy more T2 BPOs. Someone has to hold the bag, but it doesn't have to be you. I did a fair bit of that with technetium back in the day. Must confess that I did wonder about the ethics of it, though, but since I would always have made good any losses it didn't personally seem too problematic. However, I suspect certain others might have been willing to default ... Ethics have no place in EVE, they are a weakness. IRL is very different.
I have had HUGE advantages with ethics in EvE.
I wish I could say the same about your mentioned RL...
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
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Awesome MILF
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2014.11.14 22:49:33 -
[18] - Quote
in fact I'm surprised PLEX doesnt cost like 3b, provided most people brag about earning hundreds of millions passively every day.
Xanato Kaso wrote:I have 7 accounts. its getting rediculous. I have to spend so much time playing the game doing what i dont want just so i can play the game. and each month its costing more and more time. why? cus some buttheads want to have phat bank sucks.
may I suggest STOP the obsession and play the GAME? There's no way you ENJOY eve online if you run 7 accounts. You have converted the game into a JOB.
stop it mate. |
Xanato Kaso
Kaso Enterprises
19
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Posted - 2014.11.14 23:52:07 -
[19] - Quote
Awesome MILF wrote:in fact I'm surprised PLEX doesnt cost like 3b, provided most people brag about earning hundreds of millions passively every day. Xanato Kaso wrote:I have 7 accounts. its getting rediculous. I have to spend so much time playing the game doing what i dont want just so i can play the game. and each month its costing more and more time. why? cus some buttheads want to have phat bank sucks. may I suggest STOP the obsession and play the GAME? There's no way you ENJOY eve online if you run 7 accounts. You have converted the game into a JOB. stop it mate.
I enjoy mining. 6 of my toons are dedicated towards mining and this one is towards combat. but I have to spend a lot of time mining just to pay for PLEXES when i could be using those minerals for my industry goals. all due to the super inflated price of PLEX. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24681
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Posted - 2014.11.15 00:43:28 -
[20] - Quote
pretty sure 90% of the people you think are causing a problem are doing the same thing you are. mining.
if you all stopped mining just to PLEX, the price of PLEX might go down.
that's not irony
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Nemah Xadi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
14
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Posted - 2014.11.15 01:06:11 -
[21] - Quote
Xanato Kaso wrote:I enjoy mining. 6 of my toons are dedicated towards mining and this one is towards combat. but I have to spend a lot of time mining just to pay for PLEXES when i could be using those minerals for my industry goals. all due to the super inflated price of PLEX.
You are your own worst enemy. Train those 6 characters into catalysts and go gank other multiboxers instead. |
Xanato Kaso
Kaso Enterprises
19
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Posted - 2014.11.15 01:17:42 -
[22] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:pretty sure 90% of the people you think are causing a problem are doing the same thing you are. mining.
if you all stopped mining just to PLEX, the price of PLEX might go down.
that's not irony
well i mine so i can build ships to go pvp with. but i have to plex my toons so i also mine so i can plex.
Nemah Xadi wrote:Xanato Kaso wrote:I enjoy mining. 6 of my toons are dedicated towards mining and this one is towards combat. but I have to spend a lot of time mining just to pay for PLEXES when i could be using those minerals for my industry goals. all due to the super inflated price of PLEX. You are your own worst enemy. Train those 6 characters into catalysts and go gank other multiboxers instead.
how am i my own worst enemy |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2333
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Posted - 2014.11.15 05:54:34 -
[23] - Quote
Xanato Kaso wrote:Awesome MILF wrote:in fact I'm surprised PLEX doesnt cost like 3b, provided most people brag about earning hundreds of millions passively every day. Xanato Kaso wrote:I have 7 accounts. its getting rediculous. I have to spend so much time playing the game doing what i dont want just so i can play the game. and each month its costing more and more time. why? cus some buttheads want to have phat bank sucks. may I suggest STOP the obsession and play the GAME? There's no way you ENJOY eve online if you run 7 accounts. You have converted the game into a JOB. stop it mate. I enjoy mining. 6 of my toons are dedicated towards mining and this one is towards combat. but I have to spend a lot of time mining just to pay for PLEXES when i could be using those minerals for my industry goals. all due to the super inflated price of PLEX.
It's more the fact that you picked one of the lowest isk activities in the game |
Jurico Elemenohpe
Laughing Coffin's
6
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Posted - 2014.11.15 09:15:45 -
[24] - Quote
Bl1SkR1N wrote:Too much money poured into economy But what's changed in the past month that caused this spike? I don't remember any new faucets being introduced. |
Xanato Kaso
Kaso Enterprises
21
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Posted - 2014.11.15 10:49:23 -
[25] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Xanato Kaso wrote:Awesome MILF wrote:in fact I'm surprised PLEX doesnt cost like 3b, provided most people brag about earning hundreds of millions passively every day. Xanato Kaso wrote:I have 7 accounts. its getting rediculous. I have to spend so much time playing the game doing what i dont want just so i can play the game. and each month its costing more and more time. why? cus some buttheads want to have phat bank sucks. may I suggest STOP the obsession and play the GAME? There's no way you ENJOY eve online if you run 7 accounts. You have converted the game into a JOB. stop it mate. I enjoy mining. 6 of my toons are dedicated towards mining and this one is towards combat. but I have to spend a lot of time mining just to pay for PLEXES when i could be using those minerals for my industry goals. all due to the super inflated price of PLEX. It's more the fact that you picked one of the lowest isk activities in the game
I enjoy mining, I just dont enjoy having the fruits of my labor get wasted on PLEX, and then having to waste even more because someone felt like manipulating the market. |
Ria Nieyli
22317
|
Posted - 2014.11.15 11:53:35 -
[26] - Quote
Xanato Kaso wrote:I enjoy mining, I just dont enjoy having the fruits of my labor get wasted on PLEX, and then having to waste even more because someone felt like manipulating the market.
Have you considered subscribing with cash? Instant solution.
Clone Grade Nu
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5567
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Posted - 2014.11.15 12:25:04 -
[27] - Quote
Xanato Kaso wrote: I enjoy mining, I just dont enjoy having the fruits of my labor get wasted on PLEX, and then having to waste even more because someone felt like manipulating the market.
You know, you could leave the typical miner victim mentality and actually deal with what you don't like?
It's markets.
As the guy who teached me RL trading always tells: "trading is about money and facts. All the rest is fluff and empty talk".
You are on Market Discussion, where money talks. Slam your money on the table and teach'em a lesson. Or don't, and keep posting about your impotence on a forum for what it can help you (hint: it doesn't).
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
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Xanato Kaso
Kaso Enterprises
21
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Posted - 2014.11.15 12:32:52 -
[28] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Xanato Kaso wrote:I enjoy mining, I just dont enjoy having the fruits of my labor get wasted on PLEX, and then having to waste even more because someone felt like manipulating the market. Have you considered subscribing with cash? Instant solution.
Yeah I am legally disabled, unable to work going through chemotherapy and on an extremely fixxed income with no way to change it. Paying for EVE is not possible. The only reason I am able to play is because of PLEX |
Xanato Kaso
Kaso Enterprises
21
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Posted - 2014.11.15 12:37:50 -
[29] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Xanato Kaso wrote: I enjoy mining, I just dont enjoy having the fruits of my labor get wasted on PLEX, and then having to waste even more because someone felt like manipulating the market.
You know, you could leave the typical miner victim mentality and actually deal with what you don't like? It's markets. As the guy who teached me RL trading always tells: "trading is about money and facts. All the rest is fluff and empty talk". You are on Market Discussion, where money talks. Slam your money on the table and teach'em a lesson. Or don't, and keep posting about your impotence on a forum for what it can help you (hint: it doesn't).
I understand that there are better ways to make ISK than mining. BUT I DO NOT ENJOY DOING THEM. And I did not come here whining about my miner woes. I came on here to discuss the PLEX prices |
Nemah Xadi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
14
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Posted - 2014.11.15 16:10:29 -
[30] - Quote
Wouldn't play this game unless I could plex my accounts either. But there are other free games out there when the eve grind gets too boring. And I've quit eve before. So can you. |
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Xanato Kaso
Kaso Enterprises
21
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Posted - 2014.11.15 16:32:48 -
[31] - Quote
Nemah Xadi wrote:Wouldn't play this game unless I could plex my accounts either. But there are other free games out there when the eve grind gets too boring. And I've quit eve before. So can you.
oh ive quit eve a couple of times. my account has been around since 2011 but I only have 20m sp. and this is the only character on the account |
Waltaratzor
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
3
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Posted - 2014.11.15 17:06:54 -
[32] - Quote
Plex prices have been increasing because CCP has consistently made everything else easier to acquire. There have been a series of changes over the years that have made high sec in particular easier and less risky. PLEX on the other hand is has a fixed RL value and is constantly being removed from the economy. I would also speculate that supply isn't very elastic when it comes to plex, so price changes happen fairly rapidly on the demand side of the equation.
Its not surprising plex prices rise then. |
Angelica Everstar
53
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Posted - 2014.11.15 17:24:56 -
[33] - Quote
Xanato Kaso wrote:Why are they going up so fast??? Last month when I plexxed my accounts i was getting them for around 780m ea. Now they are running almost 900m!!!!
"PLEX are to damn expensive !!!"
Like I have said so many times before... When we hit 300m, 400m, 500m, 600m, 800m and more.
"Just wait, it's going to go higher. The market is not done yet".
§ Any typos, bad spelling or grammar found, are yours to keep.
¦Æ In progress : Angel ConsultingGäó || Angel's Pawn ShopGäó
¢ Bonds : Current AE06 200b // Total : 1.05 Trillion ISK
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2333
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Posted - 2014.11.15 18:52:00 -
[34] - Quote
Xanato Kaso wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Xanato Kaso wrote: I enjoy mining, I just dont enjoy having the fruits of my labor get wasted on PLEX, and then having to waste even more because someone felt like manipulating the market.
You know, you could leave the typical miner victim mentality and actually deal with what you don't like? It's markets. As the guy who teached me RL trading always tells: "trading is about money and facts. All the rest is fluff and empty talk". You are on Market Discussion, where money talks. Slam your money on the table and teach'em a lesson. Or don't, and keep posting about your impotence on a forum for what it can help you (hint: it doesn't). I understand that there are better ways to make ISK than mining. BUT I DO NOT ENJOY DOING THEM. And I did not come here whining about my miner woes. I came on here to discuss the PLEX prices
But how you make your isk is completely relevant to the discussion. Yes there is market manipulation. But there are also plenty of people willing and able to pay the high PLEX prices. Largely because they make better isk/hr than a miner.
If you choose a low income profession you have to accept you may need to live on less. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1388
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Posted - 2014.11.15 21:02:18 -
[35] - Quote
Xanato Kaso wrote: I came on here to discuss the PLEX prices So what do you want to discuss about PLEX prices?
The reasons for potentially high prices have been explained in this thread, one of those probably responsible for turning that potential into a reality has stepped forward and told you that prices will continue to rise, and finally RAW has pointed out that prices might at some point be allowed to crash so people can restock. There even was a morally dubious "How to earn money with PLEX without doing anything or taking any risks" section.
If you are looking for a discussion thread then put something forward that can be discussed. If you are looking for commiseration (regarding the price of PLEX - we all hope that your health will improve) then you have posted in the wrong subforum.
.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
631
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Posted - 2014.11.16 07:23:30 -
[36] - Quote
Xanato Kaso wrote:The only reason I am able to play is because of PLEX I have sympathy with your situation.
In the real world I'm semi-retired and have to live on an income 1/4 of what I was earning a few years ago. If PLEX was not an option, EVE would not be an option for me. I also have very little interest in playing EVE with only one account. I've had to cut down to 8 accounts from a much larger number in recognition of the rising costs and dwindling utility of those additional accounts.
Both of us serve at the pleasure of the PLEX market.
All I can suggest is that you look into the options for what you can do in parallel with your core gaming experience using the multiple accounts you have to make a little more isk on the side and ease the burden on your mining income. |
Bl1SkR1N
Euphoria Released Triumvirate.
49
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Posted - 2014.11.16 09:15:31 -
[37] - Quote
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:Bl1SkR1N wrote:Too much money poured into economy But what's changed in the past month that caused this spike? I don't remember any new faucets being introduced.
Well plex has been on growth longer time. Negative inpact could be caused by activities like incursions that pour direct isk into economy, instead of rewards like LP which cause money ciruclation. Or lot of renters, combinated with not so many explosions in null sec warfare(pre-phoebe).
Increase in recent price growth could be because of people stacking up plexes...after all, they have been on the rise for a long time, so it makes good investment option. If you going out of eve, you just put your cash into plexes and when you get back you cash out the profit. But that's generally known...question is when will it reach critical limit and then the bubble pops :3 hopefully :D |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
431
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Posted - 2014.11.16 11:54:55 -
[38] - Quote
Awesome MILF wrote: may I suggest STOP the obsession and play the GAME? There's no way you ENJOY eve online if you run 7 accounts. You have converted the game into a JOB.
stop it mate.
Sorry, but you don't know the correlation between enjoyment and account numbers for people other than yourself.
Xanato: if you enjoy mining then what's wrong with mining so you can mine more? If you don't enjoy doing that, then there's other ways that require very little effort that you can do while mining to increase your income :).
.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
632
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Posted - 2014.11.16 12:08:10 -
[39] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:there's other ways that require very little effort that you can do while mining to increase your income :). Trading Manufacturing Blueprint research Invention PI
Any one of these can be set up to run in the background, using the resources you already pay for in having multiple accounts.
They need not distract you from your core gameplay, they just have to contribute to paying for it. |
Athanor Ruthoern
united system's commonwealth
16
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Posted - 2014.11.16 17:02:55 -
[40] - Quote
Another factor to put into condieration is dual character training and it has become more popular to have multiple character for dual boxing with multi boxing hardware and software becoming legal. CCp has formerly confirmed that they keept plex prices artificially low with confiscaded it is unknown ot me if this stil is the case or the stopped with it. |
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Jennifer Light
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.11.17 11:32:03 -
[41] - Quote
I Still remember the days when PLEX used to cost 300 - 350 mil. I was like why so expencive Ahhh the old good days. |
Xanato Kaso
Dojiin-Kai OuterHeaven-SoldiersWithoutBorders
21
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Posted - 2014.11.17 21:01:40 -
[42] - Quote
Jennifer Light wrote:I Still remember the days when PLEX used to cost 300 - 350 mil. I was like why so expencive Ahhh the old good days.
I remember then as well. |
Xanato Kaso
Dojiin-Kai OuterHeaven-SoldiersWithoutBorders
21
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Posted - 2014.11.17 21:02:43 -
[43] - Quote
Athanor Ruthoern wrote:Another factor to put into condieration is dual character training and it has become more popular to have multiple character for dual boxing with multi boxing hardware and software becoming legal. CCp has formerly confirmed that they keept plex prices artificially low with confiscaded it is unknown ot me if this stil is the case or the stopped with it.
what do you mean keeping pricces artificially low?
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Alek Azam
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
27
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Posted - 2014.11.17 21:27:14 -
[44] - Quote
Stored plex were removed from banned accounts. This was used by CCP not to keep prices low, but to smooth large price spikes. The aim was to allow the market to move but not have huge changes in price.
Blog: http://sellyourmainbro.blogspot.co.uk/
Twitter: @_Alek_Azam_
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Nemah Xadi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
16
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Posted - 2014.11.18 00:48:57 -
[45] - Quote
Alek Azam wrote:Stored plex were removed from banned accounts. This was used by CCP not to keep prices low, but to smooth large price spikes. The aim was to allow the market to move but not have huge changes in price.
So the only question then is, how do we get more people with plex banned? |
Claire Voyant
149
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Posted - 2014.11.18 02:11:43 -
[46] - Quote
Nemah Xadi wrote:Alek Azam wrote:Stored plex were removed from banned accounts. This was used by CCP not to keep prices low, but to smooth large price spikes. The aim was to allow the market to move but not have huge changes in price. So the only question then is, how do we get more people with plex banned? I doubt that there is any shortage of confiscated PLEX. It is possible that the real reason we haven't seen an intervention yet is that the Eve Central Banker left to run a small community college in northern Iceland about five months ago and no one has been named to fill his clown-sized shoes. |
Alek Azam
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
27
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Posted - 2014.11.18 10:30:31 -
[47] - Quote
Pretty sure they said they did intervene. But wouldn't say at what point or how many plex were used.
Blog: http://sellyourmainbro.blogspot.co.uk/
Twitter: @_Alek_Azam_
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Kaivar Lancer
Little Rat Company
573
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 11:18:24 -
[48] - Quote
Don't care about the reason. At this point I'm letting my account expire. 1b PLEX is ridiculous. |
Bl1SkR1N
Euphoria Released Triumvirate.
49
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 15:04:45 -
[49] - Quote
I would really die for seeing how many plexes pilots actually have sitting in hangars. These prices are not caused by people subbing accounts. |
Nominae Malaketh
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.11.18 15:44:17 -
[50] - Quote
Real money for plex plus rising PLEX prices has created a run away inflation effect. We just have to wait for the market to either stabalize or crash. As prices continue to rise more people will see a resonable profit in buying plex for real cash and selling it for isk. My primary question is who out there is buying plex at such outrageous prices to keep the market rising?
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RAW23
867
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Posted - 2014.11.18 15:56:11 -
[51] - Quote
Nominae Malaketh wrote:Real money for plex plus rising PLEX prices has created a run away inflation effect. We just have to wait for the market to either stabalize or crash. As prices continue to rise more people will see a resonable profit in buying plex for real cash and selling it for isk. My primary question is who out there is buying plex at such outrageous prices to keep the market rising?
I'm sure the people making absurd amounts of isk pushing the plex market higher will be using plex to pay for their accounts
Also, lots of traders and industrialists for whom a few bil a month on plex is no great problem. Also wormholers, dedicated null ratters, incursioners and pretty much anyone who makes multiple billions a week (or a day) with relative ease.
_There are two types of EVE player: _
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
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Ria Nieyli
23095
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Posted - 2014.11.18 15:57:10 -
[52] - Quote
Nominae Malaketh wrote:Real money for plex plus rising PLEX prices has created a run away inflation effect. We just have to wait for the market to either stabalize or crash. As prices continue to rise more people will see a resonable profit in buying plex for real cash and selling it for isk.
Not really. People that would buy PLEX for $ already do. It just means that they need to buy less plex than they used to, so there's an even lesser amount of units entering the market.
Clone Grade Nu
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flakeys
Arkham Innovations
2577
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Posted - 2014.11.18 15:58:27 -
[53] - Quote
Nominae Malaketh wrote:Real money for plex plus rising PLEX prices has created a run away inflation effect. We just have to wait for the market to either stabalize or crash. As prices continue to rise more people will see a resonable profit in buying plex for real cash and selling it for isk. My primary question is who out there is buying plex at such outrageous prices to keep the market rising?
People who don't feel paying rl cash for this game is worth it ?So the question is at what point does the need to grind exceed the will to pay rl cash OR the will to play at all.I see a lot of people rather completely unsibbing then spending rl cash on eve , but that's just my view on it .... and yes it probably is biased .
Speaking for myself , i subbed till summer 2018 a month ago to play skill-online .
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
139
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Posted - 2014.11.18 16:02:56 -
[54] - Quote
Nominae Malaketh wrote:Real money for plex plus rising PLEX prices has created a run away inflation effect. We just have to wait for the market to either stabalize or crash. As prices continue to rise more people will see a resonable profit in buying plex for real cash and selling it for isk. My primary question is who out there is buying plex at such outrageous prices to keep the market rising?
PLEX is a weird market. Rising PLEX prices does not mean more ppl will be spending RL cash to get them for isk per se. In fact, as everyone who is buying PLEX with RL cash is getting MORE isk for their money, they don't need to buy as many PLEX with RL cash as they did before to get the same ammount of isk.
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Bl1SkR1N
Euphoria Released Triumvirate.
49
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Posted - 2014.11.18 16:47:21 -
[55] - Quote
Lets all hoard plexes and see how high we can get them |
Xanato Kaso
Dojiin-Kai OuterHeaven-SoldiersWithoutBorders
22
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Posted - 2014.11.18 18:30:35 -
[56] - Quote
I know of one guy who has 800+ PLEX that he is hoarding.... and im sure he isnt the only one..... so im sure there is hundreds of thousands of plex sitting in storage waiting to see how high it goes... |
Obunagawe
415
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 18:37:59 -
[57] - Quote
Xanato Kaso wrote:I know of one guy who has 800+ PLEX that he is hoarding.... and im sure he isnt the only one..... so im sure there is hundreds of thousands of plex sitting in storage waiting to see how high it goes...
At least 1.5 million PLEX if my calculations based on CCCP's financial report are correct. Could be a lot more if the "liability" value of a PLEX is a lot less than it's $17.50 "sale" value. |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
139
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Posted - 2014.11.18 18:43:24 -
[58] - Quote
Obunagawe wrote:Xanato Kaso wrote:I know of one guy who has 800+ PLEX that he is hoarding.... and im sure he isnt the only one..... so im sure there is hundreds of thousands of plex sitting in storage waiting to see how high it goes... At least 1.5 million PLEX if my calculations based on CCCP's financial report are correct. Could be a lot more if the "liability" value of a PLEX is a lot less than it's $17.50 "sale" value. An article I read somewhere (can't remember where) said that the number of PLEX 'hoarded' was pretty constant throughout the past few years. Of course that could have changed this year but if his analyis of the financial report were correct then that would mean that PLEX 'hoarding' has not been the driving force behind rising PLEX prices in the past, which in my book makes it unlikely (not impossible mind you) that it has been the driving force in rising prices lately. |
Lilly The Pink
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 19:10:21 -
[59] - Quote
Well prices are rising so much I'm becoming tempted to hoard some myself.
However from past experience as a rubbish market speculator if an item is looking like a 'must' investment and I decide to throw money at it you can be pretty certain the 'bubble' is about to pop! |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
141
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Posted - 2014.11.18 19:31:01 -
[60] - Quote
Lilly The Pink wrote:Well prices are rising so much I'm becoming tempted to hoard some myself. However from past experience as a rubbish market speculator if an item is looking like a 'must' investment and I decide to throw money at it you can be pretty certain the 'bubble' is about to pop! I do 'some' PLEX hoarding. If I have excess isk that is not used by my trading alts I drop a portion of it into PLEX. Historically, PLEX and b4 that GTC have always gone up in isk value with only minor corrections downwards. It is prolly the most safe investment you can ever do in EVE. Buy a PLEX now and it's almost guaranteed it will be worth more a year from now.
Even if PLEX prices would halve or more, the worst thing that is happening is that I have a bunch of PLEX stored to pay for my accounts for about a year. I can't see PLEX prices crash that hard and stay at such a level for any significant lenght of time though. For that to happen I reckon the game should either be near death (not the case right now and see no reason why that would be the case a year from now), markets could get weird at that point, or, for EVE to become immensely popular with the "I can and don't mind spending tons of cash on a video game"-crowd. The latter being unlikely too... |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5569
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Posted - 2014.11.18 20:35:17 -
[61] - Quote
Lilly The Pink wrote:Well prices are rising so much I'm becoming tempted to hoard some myself. However from past experience as a rubbish market speculator if an item is looking like a 'must' investment and I decide to throw money at it you can be pretty certain the 'bubble' is about to pop!
Bubble or not, you are meant to "buy low" before (hoping to) selling high. Now it's not low.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
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The UberSoldier
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2014.11.18 22:11:59 -
[62] - Quote
Remember this thead. Next year, there will be a new one with "why is plex so expensive (with a price at 1.3 bil)"
I, for my self, finally learned one thing: Plex is always expensive, there will be no huge crash because there are so many wealthy people trying to secure their money from inflation. If the market would crash we would see huge demand from various people (which are atm just waiting for lower prices) and less supply (because its not sensible anymore to get that few ISK for real life money) -> PLEX rises again.
Look at the PLEX price on the Chinese Server, in 3-4 years we are going to have these prices on Tranquility. |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
143
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 10:28:08 -
[63] - Quote
The UberSoldier wrote:Remember this thead. Next year, there will be a new one with "why is plex so expensive (with a price at 1.3 bil)" . You can expect a thread like this every few months even :P . |
Dave Stark
7190
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 11:14:20 -
[64] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Now it's not low.
*looks at serenity*
righty. |
Dianalexia
Gea'Vii Enterprises
8
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Posted - 2014.11.19 11:28:14 -
[65] - Quote
If less players are going to play do to high price of plex, CCP will probably do something to limit the gold like value of plex (which might be the the real problem with this item). If the number of players will stay the same or increase, so will do the price of plex.
On the other hand, I think CCP already thought about the worst case scenario when they introduced the "Pilot training certificate". |
Ria Nieyli
23218
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 13:03:36 -
[66] - Quote
Checked prices today. Had a good chuckle.
Clone Grade Nu
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Dianalexia
Gea'Vii Enterprises
8
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Posted - 2014.11.19 19:54:36 -
[67] - Quote
Currently taking a long brake because of boredom, but honestly I will probably be less inclined to get back if I will have to spend too much time to get the isk necessary to fund my accounts with plex. That time may vary from person to person and i'm not that patient
Thanks CCP, it was nice.
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Zahara Cody
Imperial Corrections Service.
149
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Posted - 2014.11.19 20:14:55 -
[68] - Quote
Prices are falling... sell. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
633
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Posted - 2014.11.19 20:16:20 -
[69] - Quote
Zahara Cody wrote:Prices are falling... sell. ...to my buy orders. |
350125GO
Transcendent Sedition Protean Concept
133
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Posted - 2014.11.19 20:40:12 -
[70] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Zahara Cody wrote:Prices are falling... sell. ...to my buy orders.
PLEX are the new T2 BPOs. They must be nerfed!
You're young, you'll adjust.
I'm old, I'll get used to it.
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Zahara Cody
Imperial Corrections Service.
149
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Posted - 2014.11.19 20:56:53 -
[71] - Quote
350125GO wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Zahara Cody wrote:Prices are falling... sell. ...to my buy orders. PLEX are the new T2 BPOs. They must be nerfed!
Can't nerf t2 bpos any further. |
Alek Azam
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
27
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Posted - 2014.11.19 22:17:24 -
[72] - Quote
Zahara Cody wrote:350125GO wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Zahara Cody wrote:Prices are falling... sell. ...to my buy orders. PLEX are the new T2 BPOs. They must be nerfed! Can't nerf t2 bpos any further.
WTFunk! I have sold all my plex and bought 30 T2 BPO's.
Blog: http://sellyourmainbro.blogspot.co.uk/
Twitter: @_Alek_Azam_
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Circumstantial Evidence
156
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Posted - 2014.11.19 22:50:39 -
[73] - Quote
According to eve-central at this time, ~6800 buy orders are chasing after ~500 available for sale. I think plex 'collectors' have succeeded at driving price up, by keeping stock off the market. I expect stocks to be re-listed and price to come down, close to the nearly-inevitable holiday CCP sale. |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance
564
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Posted - 2014.11.20 00:02:40 -
[74] - Quote
I'd quite like to see PLEX have an expiry time after their first market transaction to stop people stockpiling them for trading and reselling later.
I'd also like to see Mila Kunis naked in my bed waiting for me later, however I know that won't happen either all because CCP is so greedy for people's real money and know higher PLEX prices means more in game stuff for people's money.... and less chance for Mila in my bed.
Barstewards.
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
3643
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Posted - 2014.11.20 01:24:44 -
[75] - Quote
I am interested to see how much the price falls when the next significant sale on 30 PLEX packs hits and the whales get Christmas bonuses.
And I am also interested in how much the price rises the next time Power of Two is advertised. Didn't X ATM invest almost a thousand PLEX in that recently?
www.minerbumping.com - Mining accidents are increasing. Get your permit now.
Ganking doesn't need a purpose, the gank is its own purpose.
You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I gank.
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Zetsubou Gakusei
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.11.20 08:38:27 -
[76] - Quote
I had an experiment in mind but since I'm no expert trader I have no idea what would happen.
Let's say I buy a single plex from CCP Then I sell that plex through a sell order Then with the money I set up a buy order for a plex
Then if it gets fullfilled I sell that plex again and so on
What would happen? would I slowly make enough of a profit to be able to buy a second plex? Would the increasing prices interefere or make this process easier?
Maybe people are already doing this?
Is this a completely dumb idea and I'd just waste money?
What do the experts think? |
Angelica Everstar
53
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Posted - 2014.11.20 13:29:41 -
[77] - Quote
IF done right - sure If not - you will just waste time and some isk
§ Any typos, bad spelling or grammar found, are yours to keep.
¦Æ In progress : Angel ConsultingGäó || Angel's Pawn ShopGäó
¢ Bonds : Current AE06 200b // Total : 1.05 Trillion ISK
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
633
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Posted - 2014.11.20 13:58:29 -
[78] - Quote
If you have to ask these questions, then chances are the excercise would not end well!
But it is absolutely possible to profit from an approach like that. |
Zetsubou Gakusei
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.11.20 14:08:17 -
[79] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:IF done right - sure If not - you will just waste time and some isk
Bad Bobby wrote: If you have to ask these questions, then chances are the excercise would not end well!
But it is absolutely possible to profit from an approach like that.
Of course I know I'd probably fail given my little knowledge of the subject.
Still, it's pretty interesting to know |
Elvandari
Valheru industries Imperium of Rising Luna
3
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Posted - 2014.11.20 14:24:34 -
[80] - Quote
Zetsubou Gakusei wrote:Angelica Everstar wrote:IF done right - sure If not - you will just waste time and some isk Bad Bobby wrote: If you have to ask these questions, then chances are the excercise would not end well!
But it is absolutely possible to profit from an approach like that. Of course I know I'd probably fail given my little knowledge of the subject. Still, it's pretty interesting to know
sometimes it is really hard to make profit from trading PLEX due to broker fees and taxes being really high but you definitely can do that (as i already did few times in the past) |
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
633
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Posted - 2014.11.20 14:44:01 -
[81] - Quote
Elvandari wrote:sometimes it is really hard to make profit from trading PLEX due to broker fees and taxes That is deliberate.
Closing the gap between buy and sell so that only people with very high standings can profitably trade an item is a tried and tested method.
This works well on items with high price and high traded volume, as you can make a non-trivial amount from each trade and multiply that by a large volume of trades. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
3652
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Posted - 2014.11.20 22:37:39 -
[82] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Elvandari wrote:sometimes it is really hard to make profit from trading PLEX due to broker fees and taxes That is deliberate. Closing the gap between buy and sell so that only people with very high standings can profitably trade an item is a tried and tested method. This works well on items with high price and high traded volume, as you can make a non-trivial amount from each trade and multiply that by a large volume of trades.
This is why trillionaires will pay absurd amounts for characters with extreme standings (like 9.8 Gallente Federation to player and 9.993 Federation Navy to player).
www.minerbumping.com - Mining accidents are increasing. Get your permit now.
Ganking doesn't need a purpose, the gank is its own purpose.
You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I gank.
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2542
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Posted - 2014.11.21 01:53:31 -
[83] - Quote
Watching plex drop 40 mil in less than an hour after they hit 1 bil was good fun. |
Airto TLA
Puppeteers of Doom
65
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Posted - 2014.11.21 05:46:58 -
[84] - Quote
I have to assume the problem of supply has finally come to roost. There are simply not enough people willing to pay to "win" Eve any more. They have been massively outnumbered by those who have isk there way PLex for years and know no other way. The banned miners plexs probably just slowed the inevitable. |
Isabella Odelia
Golden-Lions Uncharted Infinite Spiral Drillings
0
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Posted - 2014.11.21 06:51:34 -
[85] - Quote
The UberSoldier wrote:Remember this thead. Next year, there will be a new one with "why is plex so expensive (with a price at 1.3 bil)"
I, for my self, finally learned one thing: Plex is always expensive, there will be no huge crash because there are so many wealthy people trying to secure their money from inflation. If the market would crash we would see huge demand from various people (which are atm just waiting for lower prices) and less supply (because its not sensible anymore to get that few ISK for real life money) -> PLEX rises again.
Look at the PLEX price on the Chinese Server, in 3-4 years we are going to have these prices on Tranquility.
And then we are going to have no more than 15000 poeple online at same time, just same as Chinese Server.
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Cista2
Phoibe Enterprises
26
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Posted - 2014.11.21 08:48:16 -
[86] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Elvandari wrote:sometimes it is really hard to make profit from trading PLEX due to broker fees and taxes That is deliberate. Closing the gap between buy and sell so that only people with very high standings can profitably trade an item is a tried and tested method. This works well on items with high price and high traded volume, as you can make a non-trivial amount from each trade and multiply that by a large volume of trades. Utter nonsense from someone who has not station-traded a day in his life. Disinformation to put it nicely.
There are less than 100 PLEX sold in Jita per hour. But PLEX is not like other items. a) PLEX are largely sold by players that bought them the from CCP with RL money, so not station traders. b) PLEX are largely bought by players that consume them, so not station traders c) PLEX have risen 150 million isk in 1 month. The majority of PLEX are of course bought and sold by traders holding *positions* in PLEX, i.e. not riding the narrow spread but keeping their distance to it. Thus making not 10, but 40, 60, 80 million isk per unit.
I am estimating only 10 PLEX per hour are bought and sold by true margin traders in Jita. Look at the listed prices yourself and see how little 0.01 isking is going on. This does not constitute the postulated "large volume of trades" by any one person with perfect broker relations. There are many important factors controlling the price of PLEX.... daytraders are not one of them. |
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
436
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Posted - 2014.11.21 09:44:19 -
[87] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Elvandari wrote:sometimes it is really hard to make profit from trading PLEX due to broker fees and taxes That is deliberate. Closing the gap between buy and sell so that only people with very high standings can profitably trade an item is a tried and tested method. This works well on items with high price and high traded volume, as you can make a non-trivial amount from each trade and multiply that by a large volume of trades. Utter nonsense from someone who has not station-traded a day in his life. Disinformation to put it nicely. There are less than 100 PLEX sold in Jita per hour. But PLEX is not like other items. a) PLEX are largely sold by players that bought them the from CCP with RL money, so not station traders. b) PLEX are largely bought by players that consume them, so not station traders c) PLEX have risen 150 million isk in 1 month. The majority of PLEX are of course bought and sold by traders holding *positions* in PLEX, i.e. not riding the narrow spread but keeping their distance to it. Thus making not 10, but 40, 60, 80 million isk per unit. I am estimating no more than 10 PLEX per hour are bought and sold by a few true margin traders in Jita. Look at the listed prices yourself and see how little 0.01 isking is going on. This does not constitute the postulated "large volume of trades" by any given person with perfect broker relations. There are many important factors controlling the price of PLEX.... daytraders are not one of them.
Depends on your capital :) If you can generate enough capital through other means and withhold say 10% of plex per day off the market you will drive the price up. |
Sir Constantin
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
16
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Posted - 2014.11.21 13:21:14 -
[88] - Quote
Airto TLA wrote:I have to assume the problem of supply has finally come to roost. There are simply not enough people willing to pay to "win" Eve any more. They have been massively outnumbered by those who have isk there way PLex for years and know no other way. The banned miners plexs probably just slowed the inevitable.
Or maybe is because plex hoarders are investing in plex, they don't care about plex price because it wil always go up. So it's a win win for them. For every 5 or more paying customers there is a person who makes 5 bil/month or more and is able to buy and stash 5 or more plexes.
I think CCP should limit the amount of plex a person can have and make people to invest in real ingame items. |
RAW23
867
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 13:44:11 -
[89] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Elvandari wrote:sometimes it is really hard to make profit from trading PLEX due to broker fees and taxes That is deliberate. Closing the gap between buy and sell so that only people with very high standings can profitably trade an item is a tried and tested method. This works well on items with high price and high traded volume, as you can make a non-trivial amount from each trade and multiply that by a large volume of trades. Utter nonsense from someone who has not station-traded a day in his life. Disinformation to put it nicely. There are less than 100 PLEX sold in Jita per hour. But PLEX is not like other items. a) PLEX are largely sold by players that bought them the from CCP with RL money, so not station traders. b) PLEX are largely bought by players that consume them, so not station traders c) PLEX have risen 150 million isk in 1 month. The majority of PLEX are of course bought and sold by traders holding *positions* in PLEX, i.e. not riding the narrow spread but keeping their distance to it. Thus making not 10, but 40, 60, 80 million isk per unit. I am estimating no more than 10 PLEX per hour are bought and sold by a few true margin traders in Jita. Look at the listed prices yourself and see how little 0.01 isking is going on. This does not constitute the postulated "large volume of trades" by any given person with perfect broker relations. There are many important factors controlling the price of PLEX.... daytraders are not one of them.
This is very, very, very wrong on pretty much every point.
When I am casually trading the plex margin as a side thing to my main basket of goods or doing it on a second screen while in fleet I normally flip 20 or so plex an hour by myself. On the rare occasions I focus on it it can be 30-40. I am competing with a lot of people and I am never a major player in the PLEX market, keeping my buy orders small.
Bear in mind that most people who buy plexes with real money do not put up a sell order to dispose of them - they sell them to the margin traders who have buy orders up. Why? because if you don't have skills and standings you pay a 1% broker fee on top of your sales tax and that wipes out almost all the extra isk you would have earned from selling on a sell order over a buy. Also, most people who buy plexes with rl cash want instant gratification and don't want to nurse sell orders. So, the majority of what you see on sells are recycled from buys.
You can check this by looking at the highest, lowest and average prices on the chart from days when the price was relatively stable - average in normally roughly in the middle of lowest and highest, suggesting that the volume of goods sold on sell orders and buy orders is roughly proportional.
_There are two types of EVE player: _
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
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Cista2
Phoibe Enterprises
27
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Posted - 2014.11.21 15:01:32 -
[90] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:[This is very, very, very wrong on pretty much every point.
When I am casually trading the plex margin as a side thing to my main basket of goods or doing it on a second screen while in fleet I normally flip 20 or so plex an hour by myself. On the rare occasions I focus on it it can be 30-40. I am competing with a lot of people and I am never a major player in the PLEX market, keeping my buy orders small. If I spend a day trading on the weekends then 300 billion isk of trades in plex might pass through my hands in an 8 hour period. Margins are tiny but they add up so it's something to do with excess isk that stacks up beyond what I need for my regular trading.
Bear in mind that most people who buy plexes with real money do not put up a sell order to dispose of them - they sell them to the margin traders who have buy orders up. Why? because if you don't have skills and standings you pay a 1% broker fee on top of your sales tax and that wipes out almost all the extra isk you would have earned from selling on a sell order over a buy. Also, most people who buy plexes with rl cash want instant gratification and don't want to nurse sell orders. So, the majority of what you see on sells are recycled from buys.
You can check this by looking at the highest, lowest and average prices on the chart from days when the price was relatively stable - average in normally roughly in the middle of lowest and highest, suggesting that the volume of goods sold on sell orders and buy orders is roughly proportional. So, less than 100 PLEX are sold (in Jita) per hour, and you are personally responsible for 30-40 of those less than 100 sold? That is impressive indeed, but I do not understand why you call yourself a small player when you have "casually" cornered so much of the market.
Maybe your monopoly is why there is no 0.01 isking on this item
Anyway, the statement that was made by Bad Bobby was that the players with the perfect broker standings have "deliberately" made the spread on the item so small that noone else can make any profit. This is what I said was utter nonsense, and that the spread on PLEX is decided not by the daytraders - the daytraders simply trade within the price margin that the item has. I did *not* say that is not possible to make profit on that spread and that noone is doing it. I said that daytraders are not the important factor in price development of PLEX.
You, who trade 30-40 PLEX per hour on the slim margin spread, must then be the right question to answer the question: have you deliberately minimised your own profits to the smallest possible, just to squeeze any competitiors out? You did say that I am wrong in everything I put forward, so we just need a confirmation that to minimize your profit is indeed your strategy. Alternatively, if that is not your strategy, then you should in fact agree with me that such a strategy is nonsensical.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
634
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Posted - 2014.11.21 15:06:33 -
[91] - Quote
Now this thread is going places. |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations
2578
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 15:20:29 -
[92] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Now this thread is going places.
At least both the entertainment value as the informative value is going up by every page ...
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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RAW23
868
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 15:56:29 -
[93] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:So, less than 100 PLEX are sold (in Jita) per hour, and you are personally responsible for 30-40 of those less than 100 sold? That is impressive indeed, but I do not understand why you call yourself a small player when you have "casually" cornered so much of the market. Maybe your monopoly is why there is no 0.01 isking on this item Anyway, the statement that was made by Bad Bobby was that the players with the perfect broker standings have "deliberately" made the spread on the item so small that noone else can make any profit. This is what I said was utter nonsense, and that the spread on PLEX is decided not by the daytraders - the daytraders simply trade within the price margin that the item has. I did *not* say that is not possible to make profit on that spread and that noone is doing it. I said that daytraders are not the important factor in price development of PLEX. You, who trade 30-40 PLEX per hour on the slim margin spread, must then be the right question to answer the question: have you deliberately minimised your own profits to the smallest possible, just to squeeze any competitiors out? You did say that I am wrong in everything I put forward, so we just need a confirmation that to minimize your profit is indeed your strategy. Alternatively, if that is not your strategy, then you should in fact agree with me that such a strategy is nonsensical.
A couple of things:
a) Your figure of 100 PLEX an hour in Jita is waaaaay off. What you have done is taken the daily average and then proceeded to treat each hour as if it conforms to that average. This is not the case. The vast majority of PLEX trading is done in EU and US prime-time, a window of about 8-10 hours. During this period PLEX volumes are much higher than during the hour after downtime, for instance, and I would estimate that the average in the peak period is closer to 200 than 100.
b) As to why I'm a small player, it's because I trade casually and infrequently. While I might be very active when I'm active, the periods I'm active are brief and inconsistent. It's pretty easy to corner about 10% of the volume in any market if you are willing to 0.01 constantly for a few hours. I certainly have nothing approaching a monopoly but I do concede that if I traded everyday for significant periods then I would probably count as a relatively major player in the market.
c)
Quote:Maybe your monopoly is why there is no 0.01 isking on this item
Go and buy a stack of 5 plexes on a buy order and then sell it on a sell order, then come back and tell me there is no 0.01isking. There is probably more in this market than in any other market I have traded in when the spreads are decent (although see d below) and I can't begin to understand why you think otherwise.
d)
Quote: Anyway, the statement that was made by Bad Bobby was that the players with the perfect broker standings have "deliberately" made the spread on the item so small that noone else can make any profit. This is what I said was utter nonsense, and that the spread on PLEX is decided not by the daytraders - the daytraders simply trade within the price margin that the item has.
No, Bobby is right here and you're wrong. Just watch the market for a while and you'll see that those 0.01ing don't let the spread get too high for too long. There is already a lot of competition and when the spread gets big enough to allow those without standings to play as well, activity on the market becomes much harder to compete with. As such, while I might enjoy half an hour of a higher than normal spread, I know with absolute certainty it will be closed down in the 30-45 minute time frame if it opens up during peak hours (off peak the wider spreads can last longer). I don't shut the margins down myself because I'm not sufficiently invested as a player in that market to seek to exercise control over it (or any other - I just ride the waves maaan), but if I were trading in it every day for significant periods I would absolutely be closing the margin down actively to shut people out. This is hardly rocket science or anything new to eve. Margins are not a 'natural' product of the good being traded, they are a product of the way traders trade them. As Bobby pointed out, the situation is the same in a lot of the other very high volume markets in Jita (look at low end mins for example). These markets are largely controlled by a relatively small number of people with deep pockets who keep the margins slim and also have the resources to push the markets around a bit.
e)
Quote: I did *not* say that is not possible to make profit on that spread and that noone is doing it. I said that daytraders are not the important factor in price development of PLEX.
I think you are confusing two different things. Day traders control the spread on the item but not necessarily the price. Manipulators control the price but not necessarily the spread. However, day traders and manipulators are often one and the same people, so Bobby signalling that he is trading the margin and Bobby signalling that he is to some extent controlling the prices are signals about two different activities from the same person, not a claim that trading the margin sets the price. It doesn't, at least by itself, but it only takes little nudges to open and close margins in the plex market, partly because the margins are so small in comparison to the value of the item that being caught on the wrong side of even a small drop can cost 100s of millions. I suspect that what is having its effect on the plex market is a combination of day traders/light manipulators who have found that it is easy to keep nudging the market up a little at a time without much significant downwards resistance with a few speculators who have caught onto this trend and bet big on it.
_There are two types of EVE player: _
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
|
Signal11th
1470
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 15:57:45 -
[94] - Quote
*gets popcorn and a brew*
Powered by reaTh Filter V1.23 "All posts by this pilot are personal held views and not representitive of any corp or alliance I am currently a member of. Like I'd give a sh*t anyway.
God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and wo
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2550
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 16:00:46 -
[95] - Quote
Now down 50 mil from 1b. The only way it can go is up, up, up! *popcorn* |
Eve Austerity
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 16:02:26 -
[96] - Quote
Hey,
I can also trade 20-30 plex in an hour and sometimes 40-50 - granted i don't get involved in every spread so its not a permanent state of events but every day i do 40-50 as an absolute minimum - I would say that day traders are almost certainly involved in the plex market on a very regular basis. I know at least 3/4 others who do the same thing. Looking at it as 100 plex per hour is also nice - Do you have a citation for that? The reason i ask is that in my limited experience i'm of the opinion that peak times take a much larger share of the total volume. I could be wrong
To say that day trading has no effect is not accurate IMHO.
Regards
Eve A |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2984
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 16:21:22 -
[97] - Quote
Isabella Odelia wrote:The UberSoldier wrote:Remember this thead. Next year, there will be a new one with "why is plex so expensive (with a price at 1.3 bil)"
I, for my self, finally learned one thing: Plex is always expensive, there will be no huge crash because there are so many wealthy people trying to secure their money from inflation. If the market would crash we would see huge demand from various people (which are atm just waiting for lower prices) and less supply (because its not sensible anymore to get that few ISK for real life money) -> PLEX rises again.
Look at the PLEX price on the Chinese Server, in 3-4 years we are going to have these prices on Tranquility. And then we are going to have no more than 15000 people online at same time, just same as Chinese Server. It's quite rare to have 15000 on Serenity at once. The average is around 6000 to 7000.
Now here is one to think about:
Right now the price of gasoline is dropping.
As a result, the number of miles you can get per dollar is increasing. Are we, as a result, spending more money on gasoline? No, we are spending less, and the sellers of gasoline are getting less money.
Now take the above and substitute "PLEX for "gasoline" and "ISK" for "miles".
As a result, the number of ISK you can get per dollar is increasing. Are we, as a result, spending more money on PLEX? No, we are spending less, and the sellers of PLEX are getting less money.
http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
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Cista2
Phoibe Enterprises
28
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 17:39:14 -
[98] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Closing the gap between buy and sell so that only people with very high standings can profitably trade an item is a tried and tested method.
RAW23 wrote:I don't shut the margins down The guy with perfect broker standings, who flips 30-40 PLEX per hour, does not deliberately shut down the margins. I rest my case - no need for further waterfalls of text |
Claire Voyant
149
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 17:41:27 -
[99] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Now here is one to think about:
Right now the price of gasoline is dropping.
As a result, the number of miles you can get per dollar is increasing. Are we, as a result, spending more money on gasoline? No, we are spending less, and the sellers of gasoline are getting less money.
Now take the above and substitute "PLEX for "gasoline" and "ISK" for "miles".
As a result, the number of ISK you can get per dollar is increasing. Are we, as a result, spending more money on PLEX? No, we are spending less, and the sellers of PLEX are getting less money.
But a mile will always be a mile (until we all get helicopters) while the RL value of isk is dropping rapidly.
The demand curve for gasoline says consumers will probably drive more with a lower price of gas even if they spend less for gas in total. For example a 10% decrease in the price of gas might mean a 5% increase in miles driven.
A 10% decrease in the price of isk may or may not mean an increase in the isk bought for RL money. If the isk you are buying today has a perceived value to you of 20% less than before, a 10% price break may not seem like such a deal.
Isk is not a commodity, it is a currency. If the pound becomes cheaper than a dollar then Americans might vacation in England more because they can get more value for their money. But at some point if people don't want to visit a country no matter how much you devalue the currency they will still stay away.
Not that Eve is a third world country yet, but we do need more space tourists for PLEX prices to stabilize.
And while we may moan about the lack of space tourists driving up PLEX prices, CCP is going to have to layoff more employees soon if it doesn't get better. |
Eve Austerity
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 17:48:08 -
[100] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:That is deliberate. RAW23 wrote:I don't shut the margins down myself The guy with perfect broker standings, who flips 30-40 PLEX per hour, does not deliberately shut down the margins. I rest my case - no need for more word cascades
Actually not true - it really depends on the resistance at any given time and how far you want to move into speculation.
For example on a market like plex u might close the margin to apply upward pressure even if its just limited. Recently i've noticed 10mil spreads - totally not worthwhile - however competition is the same on the buys because the resistance for it to be able to open again to a 15mil margin is very low on the sells - hourly trading almost as opposed to pure station trading. You dont need to have massively deep pockets depending on what time you do this either because if you take out 20% of the plex at an off peak time and only 15 need to sell to reestablish your margin there is a good chance it will happen.
If buy support is very strong - from those with deep pockets your risk is quite low
Regards
Eve A |
|
RAW23
868
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 17:54:18 -
[101] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Closing the gap between buy and sell so that only people with very high standings can profitably trade an item is a tried and tested method. RAW23 wrote:I don't shut the margins down The guy with perfect broker standings, who flips 30-40 PLEX per hour, does not deliberately shut down the margins. I rest my case - no need for further waterfalls of text
Selective quoting for the win!
RAW23 wrote: I don't shut the margins down myself because I'm not sufficiently invested as a player in that market to seek to exercise control over it (or any other - I just ride the waves maaan), but if I were trading in it every day for significant periods I would absolutely be closing the margin down actively to shut people out.
I don't have to do it because other people are doing the job for me and I'm complacent enough when trading casually to just follow the trend. If I were one of the players who was in that market daily I would be taking part in those activities as I would have a motivation to make the market dance to my tune as and when I wanted rather than just sliding along on the changes other people are engineering. I would also be working to open up the margins for brief periods at my convenience but not for long enough to let the guys with low standings take part regularly.
_There are two types of EVE player: _
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
|
Cista2
Phoibe Enterprises
28
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 18:11:48 -
[102] - Quote
Eve Austerity wrote:If buy support is very strong - from those with deep pockets your risk is quite low
Sure thing PLEX is rising and rising. And what I pointed out in my first post is that buy support comes also from others than station traders. Namely, people that need PLEX for their 5-6 characters. And these may be fuzzy about the price of PLEX, but certainly not worried about the size of the spread. RAW suggests they buy from sell orders, and certainly many do, but they also can make own buy orders inside the margin spread, and save a buck or two. This is one part of the reason why you see spreads that are "totally not worth it".
And another part of the miniscule price spreads are those that sell PLEX that they bought from CCP. Again, the width of the spread is the last of their worries, they will gladly ruin the spread for you and make a few isk more on their sale.
As will those that have held PLEX and now sell them with high profits of 100 million isk per unit or more. When they decide that today is the day they sell a handful or 20, they don't care much about the spread. I've sold a few myself, doing my bit to narrowing the margin spread each time.
The rise of PLEX atm is similar to the great rise of Technetium a few years ago - which means 0.01 iskers have less influence on the daily price IMHO.
What Bobby and Raw are saying is that it is the people that make 4-5 million profit per unit of PLEX that are fine with driving their profit going down 2-3 million more per unit (except RAW himself naturellement), while those that make 50-100 million isk per unit are more worried about the margin spread, because they do not have perfect broker standings? I don't buy it. |
RAW23
868
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 18:16:14 -
[103] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:
What Bobby and Raw are saying is that it is the people that make 4-5 million profit per unit of PLEX that are fine with driving their profit going down 2-3 million more per unit (except RAW himself naturellement), while those that make 50-100 million isk per unit are more worried about the margin spread, because they do not have perfect broker standings? I don't buy it.
That's not what we're saying. You're eliding two completely different discussions - one about what is driving the price of plex and one about what normally drives the margin.
_There are two types of EVE player: _
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
|
MoRRaK Galaxy
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 18:23:16 -
[104] - Quote
Im rather happy there rising :)
Makes it easier and cheaper to fund my PvP |
Cista2
Phoibe Enterprises
28
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 18:25:28 -
[105] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:[quote=Cista2] You're eliding two completely different discussions - one about what is driving the price of plex and one about what normally drives the margin. Normally? Please explain to me what items in EVE "normally" increase their price with 300% over a period of a couple of years.
You two keep saying that PLEX is an item that behaves like every other and the price spread is regulated by the "tried and tested method" that daytraders always use on "all high volume items". I in my low humbleness is trying to point out that PLEX has behaved and does behave a little different from most items.
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Eve Austerity
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 18:26:02 -
[106] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:Eve Austerity wrote:If buy support is very strong - from those with deep pockets your risk is quite low
Sure thing PLEX is rising and rising. And what I pointed out in my first post is that buy support comes also from others than station traders. Namely, people that need PLEX for their 5-6 characters. And these may be fuzzy about the price of PLEX, but certainly not worried about the size of the spread. RAW suggests they buy from sell orders, and certainly many do, but they also can make own buy orders inside the margin spread, and save a buck or two. This is one part of the reason why you see spreads that are "totally not worth it". And another part of the miniscule price spreads are those that sell PLEX that they bought from CCP. Again, the width of the spread is the last of their worries, they will gladly ruin the spread for you and make a few isk more on their sale. As will those that have held PLEX and now sell them with high profits of 100 million isk per unit or more. When they decide that today is the day they sell a handful or 20, they don't care much about the spread. I've sold a few myself, doing my bit to narrowing the margin spread each time. The rise of PLEX atm is similar to the great rise of Technetium a few years ago - which means 0.01 iskers have less influence on the daily price IMHO. What Bobby and Raw are saying is that it is the people that make 4-5 million profit per unit of PLEX that are fine with driving their profit going down 2-3 million more per unit (except RAW himself naturellement), while those that make 50-100 million isk per unit are more worried about the margin spread, because they do not have perfect broker standings? I don't buy it.
Dude if i am expecting plex to rise, in say 30mins i want to secure as many as my pockets can afford. Hence i want to reduce the spread because i want less competition in buying the ones up that are available knowing full well that they will go up in an hour. Thus i reduce the margin to the total not worthwhile ( along with the other guys that do this ). |
Cista2
Phoibe Enterprises
28
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 18:32:50 -
[107] - Quote
Eve Austerity wrote:Dude if i am expecting plex to rise, in say 30mins i want to secure as many as my pockets can afford. Hence i want to reduce the spread because i want less competition in buying the ones up that are available knowing full well that they will go up in an hour. Thus i reduce the margin to the total not worthwhile ( along with the other guys that do this ). Dude that's not margin trading, that's speculation in a future price.
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Eve Austerity
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 18:37:59 -
[108] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:Eve Austerity wrote:Dude if i am expecting plex to rise, in say 30mins i want to secure as many as my pockets can afford. Hence i want to reduce the spread because i want less competition in buying the ones up that are available knowing full well that they will go up in an hour. Thus i reduce the margin to the total not worthwhile ( along with the other guys that do this ). Dude that's not margin trading, that's speculation in a future price.
Yeah but the people doing it on an hourly type basis are the same people who are trading in them, as rawrr pointed out to you in an earlier post. You asked why anybody would want to close a spread and i explained why |
Cista2
Phoibe Enterprises
28
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 18:50:16 -
[109] - Quote
Eve Austerity wrote:[Yeah but the people doing it on an hourly type basis are the same people who are trading in them, as rawrr pointed out to you in an earlier post. You asked why anybody would want to close a spread and i explained why My point is, someone cannot fixate the spread on PLEX by the "tried and tested method" to a width where it shuts out those that do not have perfect broker standings. The price development is too explosive! So....those broker standings are less relevant with PLEX when traders know, as you have just - oh gosh - pointed out, the price will rise anyway and that margin spread we see right now is completely irrelevant.
You state that the narrow margin spread that we see is irrelevant to you, while Bobby and RAW claim that the narrow spread is shutting people out |
RAW23
868
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 19:04:12 -
[110] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:RAW23 wrote:[quote=Cista2] You're eliding two completely different discussions - one about what is driving the price of plex and one about what normally drives the margin. Normally? Please explain to me what items in EVE "normally" increase their price with 300% over a period of a couple of years. You two keep saying that PLEX is an item that behaves like every other and the price spread is regulated by the "tried and tested method" that daytraders always use on "all high volume items". I in my low humbleness is trying to point out that PLEX has behaved and does behave a little different from most items.
All I can say is spend a bit of time actually doing some intensive trading of the spread on a couple of 'normal' days (i.e. days when the price is stable) and you'll see what I mean. At the moment it's pretty clear you are speculating about how the market works and what happens when you trade the spread without much experience of it and since you're unwilling to listen to those who do actually have that experience the only way you'll be convinced is to try it yourself.
_There are two types of EVE player: _
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
|
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Eve Austerity
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 19:05:01 -
[111] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:Eve Austerity wrote:[Yeah but the people doing it on an hourly type basis are the same people who are trading in them, as rawrr pointed out to you in an earlier post. You asked why anybody would want to close a spread and i explained why My point is, someone cannot fixate the spread on PLEX by the "tried and tested method" to a width where it shuts out those that do not have perfect broker standings. The price development is too explosive! So....those broker standings are less relevant with PLEX when traders know, as you have just - oh gosh - pointed out, the price will rise anyway and that margin spread we see right now is completely irrelevant. You state that the narrow margin spread that we see is irrelevant to you, while Bobby and RAW claim that the narrow spread is shutting people out
It does, it shut out those that you point out are trying to save isk by buying from a buy and not a sell because it becomes not worth it 'hmm i can save 5mil if i spend an hour babysitting an order, forget that i will just buy it now from a buy'
- thus leaving it open to the traders and speculators only - forgive me but your initial argument was that traders have zero impact in plex and wouldn't want to narrow a spread i have pointed out why as i trader i would look to do that given the right circumstances.
and yes plex price is explosive - perfect broker skills allow you to not lose isk if it doesn't work and to make a chunk if it does. and plex dropped by 65mil ish at one point yesterday and are currently trading circa 35 mil lower on the sells peak. not everybody can afford to have 20-25 bil in plex for any amount of time (opportunity cost ). Those that bought and sold at the wrong time would lose isk if they wanted to cash out today based on yesterdays high buy. |
Tear Jar
Emolgranlan Code Enforcement Branch
159
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 20:29:23 -
[112] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Isabella Odelia wrote:The UberSoldier wrote:Remember this thead. Next year, there will be a new one with "why is plex so expensive (with a price at 1.3 bil)"
I, for my self, finally learned one thing: Plex is always expensive, there will be no huge crash because there are so many wealthy people trying to secure their money from inflation. If the market would crash we would see huge demand from various people (which are atm just waiting for lower prices) and less supply (because its not sensible anymore to get that few ISK for real life money) -> PLEX rises again.
Look at the PLEX price on the Chinese Server, in 3-4 years we are going to have these prices on Tranquility. And then we are going to have no more than 15000 people online at same time, just same as Chinese Server. It's quite rare to have 15000 on Serenity at once. The average is around 6000 to 7000. Now here is one to think about: Right now the price of gasoline is dropping. As a result, the number of miles you can get per dollar is increasing. Are we, as a result, spending more money on gasoline? No, we are spending less, and the sellers of gasoline are getting less money. Now take the above and substitute "PLEX for "gasoline" and "ISK" for "miles". As a result, the number of ISK you can get per dollar is increasing. Are we, as a result, spending more money on PLEX? No, we are spending less, and the sellers of PLEX are getting less money.
It depends, we really have two competing trends.
1. People who say "Plex is worth 1b isk. I am going to buy plex with RL money now!"
and
2. People who need a set amount of isk each month and go "well, now i only need two plex per month instead of 3 to fit my spending habits". |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2985
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 22:41:56 -
[113] - Quote
Right. For any commodity there is a price that maximizes the revenue for the seller. Here the seller is CCP, and what we players are buying is ISK. That is we buy PLEX and use it to get ISK form another player. Hence the commodity price we look at is dollars per ISK. This price has an optimum value. If ISK is too expensive, few will buy it as it's a poor use of their money. If it's very cheap (a huge amount of ISK per dollar), many may buy, but they will buy very little PLEX as they just do not need that much, and would rather spend their money on something else. Somewhere in between, CCP makes the most revenue.
Now what is that price? We would need to CCP's sale records to know. The best we can do is look at the trading volume at Jita. The daily trading volume for PLEX peaked somewhere around 500 million. Since then it's been dropping. CCP's economist even remarked on that drop in a presentation. My guess is a 500 million ISK PLEX makes CCP the most revenue.
http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
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Claire Voyant
149
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 22:55:31 -
[114] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Right. For any commodity there is a price that maximizes the revenue for the seller. Here the seller is CCP, and what we players are buying is ISK. That is we buy PLEX and use it to get ISK form another player. Hence the commodity price we look at is dollars per ISK. This price has an optimum value. If ISK is too expensive, few will buy it as it's a poor use of their money. If it's very cheap (a huge amount of ISK per dollar), many may buy, but they will buy very little PLEX as they just do not need that much, and would rather spend their money on something else. Somewhere in between, CCP makes the most revenue.
Now what is that price? We would need to CCP's sale records to know. The best we can do is look at the trading volume at Jita. The daily trading volume for PLEX peaked somewhere around 500 million. Since then it's been dropping. CCP's economist even remarked on that drop in a presentation. My guess is a 500 million ISK PLEX makes CCP the most revenue. Except you need to separate cause and effect. Maybe prices have risen so much since that that peak because supply has fallen so much. If you have a lot of people wanting to buy isk with PLEX, PLEX prices get driven down, players are happy and CCP is happy. If not so many people want to buy isk with PLEX prices go up and no one except the isk buyers (and PLEX speculators) are happy. |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
733
|
Posted - 2014.11.22 08:58:45 -
[115] - Quote
It would be nice if we could get some per month statistics like: Total number of accounts paid with PLX + Total number of additional training queues on accounts paid with PLEX + Total amount of PLEX converted to aurum
and then Total number of plex bought with real money from CCP
Are less people buying plex from CCP? Are more there more accounts running? Are more people using dual training? - ie has plex use gone up (for my part I've gone from a high of using 3 plex per month, to less than one, as my sub lapses from time to time)
Maybe it is just hoarding. My plex stockpile has gradually increased, even as my plex use has gone down (but the rate at which I buy plex has gone down a lot) |
Theo Sotken
Mother Knows Best Corporation
34
|
Posted - 2014.11.22 10:43:35 -
[116] - Quote
This latest increase in the cost of plexes has made me realise I cannot ignore the plex market. I currently consume about 10 a month which I was buying as needed but in future I have plan to build a buffer of a hundred.
Do plexes have a geffin good effect ie does the rising price of plex actually increase demand for the plex? |
Tear Jar
Emolgranlan Code Enforcement Branch
161
|
Posted - 2014.11.22 15:11:43 -
[117] - Quote
Theo Sotken wrote:This latest increase in the cost of plexes has made me realise I cannot ignore the plex market. I currently consume about 10 a month which I was buying as needed but in future I have plan to build a buffer of a hundred.
Do plexes have a geffin good effect ie does the rising price of plex actually increase demand for the plex?
I don't think it has a geffin good effect. I think the supply side of the equation is fairly fixed. a lot of players have a principled opposition to buying plex with money. These people won't sell at any price. Current sellers have no reason to increase PLEX "creation"(I mean they make plenty of isk to meet their wants right now). So PLEX prices are entirely decided by demand(rather when enough people become unable to afford them).
For more specific causes, look at multiboxers(who will keep plexxing until the extra accounts aren't profitable) and stagnating new player numbers. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5569
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 14:42:21 -
[118] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Watching plex drop 40 mil in less than an hour after they hit 1 bil was good fun.
1B is a (very) big round number. It's a very good candidate for price to react to it (as resistance). Of course "reacting" does not necessarily mean "invert direction" but the reaction itself creates a milestone that later may be used to setup a trade.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2988
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 22:01:10 -
[119] - Quote
If the PLEX does start to drop, remember to time your buy. You don't want to be buying at 900 if it's going to drop to 850 or 800.
http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
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Xanato Kaso
Dojiin-Kai OuterHeaven-SoldiersWithoutBorders
22
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 02:51:42 -
[120] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:If the PLEX does start to drop, remember to time your buy. You don't want to be buying at 900 if it's going to drop to 850 or 800.
how do you tell what its going to drop to though? and if my character needs a plex so i can keep playing. im kinda at the whim of the market |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5569
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 09:06:17 -
[121] - Quote
Xanato Kaso wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:If the PLEX does start to drop, remember to time your buy. You don't want to be buying at 900 if it's going to drop to 850 or 800. how do you tell what its going to drop to though? and if my character needs a plex so i can keep playing. im kinda at the whim of the market
It's fairly easy (but not so simple), just read my Experiment #01: RL finance analysis applied to EvE thread.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
640
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 13:23:45 -
[122] - Quote
We're heading back towards the stars again. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
436
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 13:31:56 -
[123] - Quote
Just as planned?
.
|
Eliram Kahoudi
Big Fluffy Bunnies
101
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 16:03:07 -
[124] - Quote
good cause i bought back in at 860. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5569
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 17:59:25 -
[125] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Just as planned?
Swings happen.
Actually, without swings, markets go in coma mode.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
|
voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
305
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 22:19:16 -
[126] - Quote
My personal opinion is that the iskbotter announcement caused people to start dumping which burst the bubble. It's obvious in retrospect that the price was driven by speculation or it wouldn't be 890 now, though I have to admit that I never realised that so much of the recent plex price was speculation driven.
Interesting aside to VV, if the price of a good is driven up by speculation can this be detected by your analysis of fundamentals?
|
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
3763
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 22:49:52 -
[127] - Quote
voetius wrote:
Interesting aside to VV, if the price of a good is driven up by speculation can this be detected by your analysis of fundamentals?
Given how poor mainstream economic theorists were at understanding the US housing bubble when early signs were showing in 2003-4, I do not believe that mainstream economic theories will predict anything useful about PLEX speculation.
I am staying right out of this market now. In 60 days time I could see PLEX at 600 million or 1100 million and the determining factor will be the decisions made by individual multi-trillionaires, as well as the promotions CCP decides to run over Christmas.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
|
Princess Honneamise
28
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 01:16:54 -
[128] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
... as well as the promotions CCP decides to run over Christmas.
for your info TODAY have started some promo on steam .
1x PLEX = 16,99 Gé¼
( price for new eve subscription - 75% = 4,99Gé¼ )
this round of offers will end on 2 december .
EVE MOONS PROJECT
http://eve-moons.com
The EVE MOONS PROJECT is the most complete and accurate moons database for Eve Online
|
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
3774
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 01:27:29 -
[129] - Quote
Princess Honneamise wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
... as well as the promotions CCP decides to run over Christmas.
for your info TODAY have started some promo on steam . 1x PLEX = 16,99 Gé¼ ( price for new eve subscription - 75% = 4,99Gé¼ ) this round of offers will end on 2 december .
I believe the main driving factor for PLEX price decreases is reductions in the cost of 6 and 28 packs. I have no idea how much those packs cost or what they get discounted to.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
|
Terraj Oknatis
Perkone Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 10:40:42 -
[130] - Quote
Delonewolf reports Plex prices took a sharp fall after ISOBOX ban was announced! |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5571
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 19:08:34 -
[131] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:voetius wrote:
Interesting aside to VV, if the price of a good is driven up by speculation can this be detected by your analysis of fundamentals?
Given how poor mainstream economic theorists were at understanding the US housing bubble when early signs were showing in 2003-4, I do not believe that mainstream economic theories will predict anything useful about PLEX speculation. I am staying right out of this market now. In 60 days time I could see PLEX at 600 million or 1100 million and the determining factor will be the decisions made by individual multi-trillionaires, as well as the promotions CCP decides to run over Christmas.
What I do is not exactly "mainstream". It can't be, because if anyone or anything becomes mainstream it means every cat and dog have jumped on the bandwagon, which SHALL crash. Because the recipe for profit is to always be in the NOT mainstream minority, that is the minority that gains.
Finally, I don't and didn't do any fundamental analysis (that's what Mynna and Akita T do, not me). Neither in RL nor in EvE. Actually, living across the ocean did not exactly push me to try predict an American bubble to begin with.
But I can see - if you really want - if I can find my links to a RL finance forum where I talk about how I have convinced my parents selling most of their properties before the big crash happened in my country. Of course it's in that country's language.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
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Mark Rain
EVE University Ivy League
29
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 20:11:23 -
[132] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:We're heading back towards the stars again.
You got 6 days of plex sales and the weekend traffic is usually higher.
Bottom isn't set yet. |
Randolph the Conquerer
Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic
2
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 20:27:57 -
[133] - Quote
Well, we know one thing.
For the price of PLEX to continue to rise, the demand for PLEX must increase relative to the supply. This means that either: 1) More people decide to play EVE by PLEXing their accounts. A possible consequence of the increased population resulting from that 'This is EVE' trailer 2) The daily supply somehow shrinks. This basically requires more people to horde PLEX.
Based on this, we can reasonably establish that there is a 'peak' price of PLEX. Unless the popularity of EVE grows significantly, the demand for PLEX will always act as a handicap.
I predict we're nearing this handicap. PLEX is very unlikely to stabilise above 1 billion ISK. |
voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
305
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 23:14:42 -
[134] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:voetius wrote:
Interesting aside to VV, if the price of a good is driven up by speculation can this be detected by your analysis of fundamentals?
Given how poor mainstream economic theorists were at understanding the US housing bubble when early signs were showing in 2003-4, I do not believe that mainstream economic theories will predict anything useful about PLEX speculation. I am staying right out of this market now. In 60 days time I could see PLEX at 600 million or 1100 million and the determining factor will be the decisions made by individual multi-trillionaires, as well as the promotions CCP decides to run over Christmas. What I do is not exactly "mainstream". It can't be, because if anyone or anything becomes mainstream it means every cat and dog have jumped on the bandwagon, which SHALL crash. Because the recipe for profit is to always be in the NOT mainstream minority, that is the minority that gains. Finally, I don't and didn't do any fundamental analysis (that's what Mynna and Akita T do, not me). Neither in RL nor in EvE. Actually, living across the ocean did not exactly push me to try predict an American bubble to begin with. But I can see - if you really want - if I can find my links to a RL finance forum where I talk about how I have convinced my parents selling most of their properties before the big crash happened in my country. Of course it's in that country's language.
Fair point. I can see what you mean after reading the biography of John Maynard Keynes by Skidelsky, esp. Vol 2. where he makes some interesting points about Keynes's stock picking strategy which was based on contrarianism, for the same reason that you mention mainstream.
No need to look for the links, I was just interested in your point of view. |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
155
|
Posted - 2014.11.28 10:45:25 -
[135] - Quote
It's dropping faster and lower than I had expected at this point. Curious to see where we will be at come monday.
|
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
3823
|
Posted - 2014.11.30 05:35:13 -
[136] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:It's dropping faster and lower than I had expected at this point. Curious to see where we will be at come monday.
Yep, I'm watching this closely.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
|
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
156
|
Posted - 2014.11.30 17:07:54 -
[137] - Quote
Interesting, prices creeping up again. If this continues the 'big crash' ppl were fearing/hoping for will once again have been nothing more than a correction of the recent spike. We're basically back at the peak of the previous spike (the summer one).
PLEX market, you so boring! |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
644
|
Posted - 2014.11.30 17:14:39 -
[138] - Quote
A lot of players that exited the market during the crash have now bought back in.
The market graph has gone back in time by a few weeks and speculators wallets have inflated. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5571
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 15:59:00 -
[139] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Interesting, prices creeping up again. If this continues the 'big crash' ppl were fearing/hoping for will once again have been nothing more than a correction of the recent spike. We're basically back at the peak of the previous spike (the summer one).
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Swings happen.
Actually, without swings, markets go in coma mode.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
|
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
563
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 18:54:26 -
[140] - Quote
Shes being very aggressively Pumped in jita now, was tumbling very fast otherwise without this latest attempt.
Don't get caught with the bag newbro's.
iCandy - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
|
|
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
414
|
Posted - 2014.12.02 18:41:31 -
[141] - Quote
You are all so silly... EVE MD people, you so silly.
For the logical minded:
PLEX = 30days regardless, and also 1 month of training etc... these are fixed and do not change, eg. they are a hedge like gold per ounce or a barrel or oil, or bacon, but more like gold because they do not degrade with time and all that unlike some commodities.
The amount of ISK you pay to buy or the amount you get when you sell are only real if you do one of them = realized gain or loss, should you sell, if you hold them that is not realized as they will always have a market price that is variable (but history shows they always go up over time with minor dips and levels from a new set price.
When PLEX is high hold them, and only use them as needed, when PLEX is low accumulate more if you can, this is the "way of the PLEX" - zen style.
Price doesn't matter unless you can't afford one and you need on to stay active. This is the point at which most people grumble... but if ISK is coming in, then getting one (or more) isn't really an issue.
What would be the case imho = people saw a natural sell point to liquidate some PLEX into ISK as well as an intervention in PLEX and then perhaps the isboxer thing may have had some impact but I don't think so, because PLEX selling doesn't help you with that announcement, if you have a bunch of accounts and you let them unsub, which is dumb, you could sell them for ISK, then also you could sell the assets for more ISK and simply keep you PLEX as you can use them with your main... I don't see any boxers I know quitting over it, and most of them didn't have a pile of PLEX as they had to box monthly to get enough ISK to get all the PLEX from the market to keep going... so they didn't hold a lot of them they used them as they got them.
The big PLEX holders are the people with 1 or 2 accounts that have 10x or 100x of PLEX in a can somewhere that they don't use more, and as they use them they add a few more always in accumulation mode... they are the ones that help keep the price up, but also they aren't setting the price, the demand is: what the market will allow and pay.
The number of PLEX being brought into existence is the biggest part of the price, if a lot of people put in RM to make new PLEX and then put them on the market the price seems to dip, but only because people who want to accumulate try very hard to push the price down and grab them up - such as the markets eating up any CCP intervention that is putting in PLEX, these are simply temp down-turns because the big ISK wants to pull them all up at the lowest price, and so they do, and then when that happens the price increases over time again as less of them are available.
All you can do in EVE is keep up some king ISK engine where you make enough to balance your PLEX needs with your amount of accounts to your wallet levels - real or in game.
Basically: Productive Activity = Wealth, anything else is just stuff (including PLEX) that someone may give you some of their productivity for, at whatever price is currently seen as a reasonable trade. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5571
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 22:12:41 -
[142] - Quote
Aurelius Valentius wrote: The big PLEX holders are the people with 1 or 2 accounts that have 10x or 100x of PLEX in a can somewhere that they don't use more, and as they use them they add a few more always in accumulation mode... they are the ones that help keep the price up, but also they aren't setting the price, the demand is: what the market will allow and pay.
I think you are understimating what a "big PLEX holder is". Even without really trying the PLEX markets I myself had up to 6 subs and 100x PLEX were nothing exceptional.
There are guys with a dozen+ PLEXed accounts and 500x PLEXes and that's just to warm them up.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
|
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
451
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 22:15:13 -
[143] - Quote
Aurelius Valentius wrote:You are all so silly... EVE MD people, you so silly.
Why are we silly and what's your point?
.
|
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
564
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 22:50:38 -
[144] - Quote
Aurelius Valentius wrote: When PLEX is high hold them, and only use them as needed, when PLEX is low accumulate more if you can, this is the "way of the PLEX" - zen style.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0
iCandy - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 23:45:05 -
[145] - Quote
Plex only has a value as long as CCP declares it is valid tender. The day that Plex is declared unsaleable, or non-market based is the day that all your time and effort is worthless.
Is this likely to happen? No Could it happen? Yes
Before you say that CCP would never do such a thing it would behoove people to look at history. There are numerous examples of priceless items being made worthless with one devblog, including out of game assets. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
452
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 00:42:30 -
[146] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Plex only has a value as long as CCP declares it is valid tender. The day that Plex is declared unsaleable, or non-market based is the day that all your time and effort is worthless.
Is this likely to happen? No Could it happen? Yes
Before you say that CCP would never do such a thing it would behoove people to look at history. There are numerous examples of priceless items being made worthless with one devblog, including out of game assets.
Did any of those other changes remove a major source of income for CCP?
.
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 00:50:30 -
[147] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Plex only has a value as long as CCP declares it is valid tender. The day that Plex is declared unsaleable, or non-market based is the day that all your time and effort is worthless.
Is this likely to happen? No Could it happen? Yes
Before you say that CCP would never do such a thing it would behoove people to look at history. There are numerous examples of priceless items being made worthless with one devblog, including out of game assets. Did any of those other changes remove a major source of income for CCP?
WTS 60 day time card... WTS 90 day time card?
Changes don't always have to remove something, or add something to significantly effect the game or value of assets.
Some would argue the recent ISBoxer changes will significantly hurt their bottom line. Need more examples? |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
452
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 00:54:14 -
[148] - Quote
I don't get what you mean by the time card statement and I don't think the recent key broadcasting change will affect their bottom line much.
.
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 00:58:52 -
[149] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:I don't get what you mean by the time card statement and I don't think the recent key broadcasting change will affect their bottom line much.
Off topic, but you don't think banning the use of a tool that let one guy use 30 of the same ship to alpha anything in the game is going to effect the number of accounts that guy keeps active?!
The time card thing is important because it is the reason we have PLEX today. They got rid of the 60 and 90 day time cards, which you bought and transferred in the forums in place of that we got 30 day market available in game assets.
What would prevent them from say losing a court case, or some other change in some other country's laws that would force them to take said assets back out of game? Maybe not make plex worthless, but definitely make it hard to sell 500 of them. |
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
566
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 01:26:10 -
[150] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote:I don't get what you mean by the time card statement and I don't think the recent key broadcasting change will affect their bottom line much. Off topic, but you don't think banning the use of a tool that let one guy use 30 of the same ship to alpha anything in the game is going to effect the number of accounts that guy keeps active?!
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote: Some would argue the recent ISBoxer changes will significantly hurt their bottom line. Need more examples?
The guy/multiboxer using isk to pay for his account, has no bearing on the amount of PLEX being generated by the players that buy them for RL money. so how does that affect the bottom line sonny? Will only affect the supply/demand in game. that & a sorebutt from the guy that can't multibox 30 miner accounts in his rented 0.0 space anymore.
iCandy - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
|
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 01:35:32 -
[151] - Quote
Candy Oshea wrote:Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote:I don't get what you mean by the time card statement and I don't think the recent key broadcasting change will affect their bottom line much. Off topic, but you don't think banning the use of a tool that let one guy use 30 of the same ship to alpha anything in the game is going to effect the number of accounts that guy keeps active?! Toad The Hitchhiker wrote: Some would argue the recent ISBoxer changes will significantly hurt their bottom line. Need more examples?
The guy/multiboxer using isk to pay for his account, has no bearing on the amount of PLEX being generated by the players that buy them for RL money. so how does that affect the bottom line sonny? Will only affect the supply/demand in game. that & a sorebutt from the guy that can't multibox 30 miner accounts in his rented 0.0 space anymore.
what?! How can you say that the guy/multiboxer using isk to pay for his account has no bearing on amount of PLEX generated?
It does not matter if an account is plex, paypal, month 2 month, they all have to be bought from CCP. If 1000 accounts are unsubbed, then 1000 less plex are needed every month. If they are still being bought but not used, then CCP gets the cash for the plex but retains the liability on their sheets for the time unused.
Or do you think Sleepers drop plex?
Seriously don't be one of those people that think there is some magical disconnect between plex and CCP subscriptions. Every plex is either a 1 month subscription, or a liability towards 1 month of subscription not yet realized... until the day CCP changes policy. |
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
566
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 03:27:11 -
[152] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:
what?! How can you say that the guy/multiboxer using isk to pay for his account has no bearing on amount of PLEX generated?
.... Irrelevant rant .....
Of course they are not, no bearing at all.
The buyer of PLEX for ISK from the market (multiboxer in this case) has nothing to do with the seller of PLEX (Brave newbie alt, Yourself whose account is already active), or the quantity of PLEX being Generated. (Weekend sale).
I'm not arguing What PLEX is or what it is not
So back to the bottom line. I'll elaborate why i think its a bogus claim that this will "hurt" CCP, as your strawman argument would imply based on the ISBoxer changes.
The amount of accounts being 'unsubbed' due to this, is a tainted sample, that you or no-one else can accurately portray. To attain the impact, you need numbers which are unobtainable.
1) Eve Subscriber numbers (total) - how they sub is irrelevant, as you so accurately stated earlier, albeit in an extremely butthurt manner. 2) Amount of accounts that Unsub their multibox alts. 3) Amount of players that simply adapt (use other software) or the Tab key. 4) Amount of accounts are made that RE-sub due to this, or the concurrent new Expac with all the new Do-dahs & systems to explore.
Even if 1000 Hearsay accounts unsub, Were talking ~ 0.2 - 0.25% of total 400-500k Subs. Is that significant? IMO no, In yours Yes?
iCandy - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 03:33:29 -
[153] - Quote
Again, all plex has to be bought before it is sold on the market. If less people are buying, more will have to be bought to purchase the same amount of isk, which in turn drives the price down. This is supply and demand. This is what the thread is about. Please use some common sense.
And the silly comment about .2% or whatever... come on, you really think all 400k accounts in this game are funded through plex? We actually have no idea how many are or are not, but we do have market data. Even a 30 plex a day drop in volume could have substantial effect on the plex market short term.
So yes, it is ******** to think that plex demand only effects sellers and not buyers from CCP. |
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
566
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 03:40:40 -
[154] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Again, all plex has to be bought before it is sold on the market. If less people are buying, more will have to be bought to purchase the same amount of isk, which in turn drives the price down. This is supply and demand. This is what the thread is about. Please use some common sense.
And the silly comment about .2% or whatever... come on, you really think all 400k accounts in this game are funded through plex? We actually have no idea how many are or are not, but we do have market data. Even a 30 plex a day drop in volume could have substantial effect on the plex market short term.
So yes, it is ******** to think that plex demand only effects sellers and not buyers from CCP.
So one post your asking if this will affect the bottom line of CCP (which is what my response was too),
Now you are arguing about supply and demand, and have somehow projected that i think 400k accounts are plexed? the 0.2 is using your 1000 Unsubs/400k accounts. Its silly because you don't understand?
I take it you are a butthurt alt of a multiboxer, Gotcha.
iCandy - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 03:46:19 -
[155] - Quote
Candy Oshea wrote:Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Again, all plex has to be bought before it is sold on the market. If less people are buying, more will have to be bought to purchase the same amount of isk, which in turn drives the price down. This is supply and demand. This is what the thread is about. Please use some common sense.
And the silly comment about .2% or whatever... come on, you really think all 400k accounts in this game are funded through plex? We actually have no idea how many are or are not, but we do have market data. Even a 30 plex a day drop in volume could have substantial effect on the plex market short term.
So yes, it is ******** to think that plex demand only effects sellers and not buyers from CCP. So one post your asking if this will affect the bottom line of CCP (which is what my response was too), Now you are arguing about supply and demand, and have somehow projected that i think 400k accounts are plexed? the 0.2 is using your 1000 Unsubs/400k accounts. Its silly because you don't understand? I take it you are a butthurt alt of a multiboxer, Gotcha. EDIT: Toad The Hitchhiker wrote: At the end of the argument the theory being proposed is that PLEX is a 100% safe investment, which is untrue. The various reasons are posted, mine included. The most important I haven't mentioned yet is that there is an abundant supply held by very wealthy players, should one decide to tank the price, they could.
Who exactly is proposing that plex is a 100% safe investment?
So you use unrelated insults to minimize the points that I am making... got it.
Your argument was that 1000 subs lost wouldnt effect CCP or effect the Plex market. I argue that both your points are wrong.
The two reasons why is, 1000 lost subs hurts CCP no matter how they are funded and 1000 plex per month would be negative to the plex market because of supply and demand.
But you decided to go 1st grade school boy on me and call me names instead. |
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
566
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 03:56:08 -
[156] - Quote
Except i didn't argue the effect of plex market, supply demand, in fact my first response to you was confirming this (go ahead and re-read, as i haven't edited)
Except i used a Random number, explained that it was a placeholder, and that 4 unknown factors are in play.
I think -1000 subs is negligible, you don't.
no-one cares dude.
iCandy - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
|
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 19:11:16 -
[157] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote:Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Plex only has a value as long as CCP declares it is valid tender. The day that Plex is declared unsaleable, or non-market based is the day that all your time and effort is worthless.
Is this likely to happen? No Could it happen? Yes
Before you say that CCP would never do such a thing it would behoove people to look at history. There are numerous examples of priceless items being made worthless with one devblog, including out of game assets. Did any of those other changes remove a major source of income for CCP? WTS 60 day time card... WTS 90 day time card? Changes don't always have to remove something, or add something to significantly effect the game or value of assets. Some would argue the recent ISBoxer changes will significantly hurt their bottom line. Need more examples?
How did the removal of purchasable 60 and 90 GTCs affect the value of existing 60 and 90 day GTCs? |
SabotNoob
Sabot Industries
59
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 00:45:11 -
[158] - Quote
I just came back to EVE 4 days ago from a 10 month break. PLEX was 650-ish million when I left. Imagine my surprise.
What's further shocking is that I went through some of my random notes on the in-client notepad, and there was a reference to PLEX costing 325 million when I first started playing EVE in early 2010.
Hard to believe it rose by half a billion in 4 years. |
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
1476
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 09:53:50 -
[159] - Quote
SabotNoob wrote:I just came back to EVE 4 days ago from a 10 month break. PLEX was 650-ish million when I left. Imagine my surprise.
What's further shocking is that I went through some of my random notes on the in-client notepad, and there was a reference to PLEX costing 325 million when I first started playing EVE in early 2010.
Hard to believe it rose by half a billion in 4 years.
I remember 2008 when 1 month GTC's where 230-250
Funny http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0801/GTC-1-02-08.zip (Posted - 2007.12.18) |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 17:08:33 -
[160] - Quote
Pak Narhoo wrote:SabotNoob wrote:I just came back to EVE 4 days ago from a 10 month break. PLEX was 650-ish million when I left. Imagine my surprise.
What's further shocking is that I went through some of my random notes on the in-client notepad, and there was a reference to PLEX costing 325 million when I first started playing EVE in early 2010.
Hard to believe it rose by half a billion in 4 years. I remember 2008 when 1 month GTC's where 230-250 Funny http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0801/GTC-1-02-08.zip (Posted - 2007.12.18)
I remember when you could get a 90 day GTC for 450 million. If it got to 530 that was "expensive" |
|
Alcaine Elias
Controlled Outcomes
2
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 14:13:17 -
[161] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Pak Narhoo wrote:SabotNoob wrote:I just came back to EVE 4 days ago from a 10 month break. PLEX was 650-ish million when I left. Imagine my surprise.
What's further shocking is that I went through some of my random notes on the in-client notepad, and there was a reference to PLEX costing 325 million when I first started playing EVE in early 2010.
Hard to believe it rose by half a billion in 4 years. I remember 2008 when 1 month GTC's where 230-250 Funny http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0801/GTC-1-02-08.zip (Posted - 2007.12.18) I remember when you could get a 90 day GTC for 450 million. If it got to 530 that was "expensive" Good times. I was happy to log back in with a few PLEX in my hangar. I should have bought more. |
Awesome MILF
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2014.12.09 17:10:41 -
[162] - Quote
Xanato Kaso wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:Xanato Kaso wrote:I enjoy mining, I just dont enjoy having the fruits of my labor get wasted on PLEX, and then having to waste even more because someone felt like manipulating the market. Have you considered subscribing with cash? Instant solution. Yeah I am legally disabled, unable to work going through chemotherapy and on an extremely fixxed income with no way to change it. Paying for EVE is not possible. The only reason I am able to play is because of PLEX
What about running, lets say... 4 accounts? This is an Orca/Rorqual plus 3 miners.
Running 7 accounts is a bit overkill imho and maybe, just maybe you will enjoy the game more. You get the chance of looking your beautiful ship more than 10 seconds before alt-tabbing to the next client. |
Ione Hunt
Storm Solutions
9
|
Posted - 2014.12.09 19:03:46 -
[163] - Quote
Aurelius Valentius wrote:
When PLEX is high hold them, and only use them as needed, when PLEX is low accumulate more if you can, this is the "way of the PLEX" - zen style.
/end thread
Seriously, this is all people need to realise and accept. |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
222
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 10:27:50 -
[164] - Quote
Ione Hunt wrote:Aurelius Valentius wrote:
When PLEX is high hold them, and only use them as needed, when PLEX is low accumulate more if you can, this is the "way of the PLEX" - zen style.
/end thread Seriously, this is all people need to realise and accept. And turn them into iskies at your leisure
Small crash seems to be in progress atm again. Time to buy :) |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
272
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 22:44:10 -
[165] - Quote
What a weak manip attempt |
Marsan
249
|
Posted - 2014.12.13 00:49:12 -
[166] - Quote
Personally with the multiboxing changes I'm serious thinking of converting a large amount of my isk to trit, ice and the like rather than invest any more in plex.
Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
|
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
222
|
Posted - 2014.12.13 06:04:11 -
[167] - Quote
Marsan wrote:Personally with the multiboxing changes I'm serious thinking of converting a large amount of my isk to trit, ice and the like rather than invest any more in plex. Isboxers claim they already have workarounds for the nerf. Sure, they might have to perform 10 clicks instead of one now and use fleetwarp but I reckon that's a burden they are able to carry |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
668
|
Posted - 2014.12.13 06:50:29 -
[168] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Marsan wrote:Personally with the multiboxing changes I'm serious thinking of converting a large amount of my isk to trit, ice and the like rather than invest any more in plex. Isboxers claim they already have workarounds for the nerf. Sure, they might have to perform 10 clicks instead of one now and use fleetwarp but I reckon that's a burden they are able to carry Multiboxing is still a thing and it still eats up muchos PLEX.
I've multiboxed pretty much everything in EVE, including a lot of things people still tell me you cannot multibox, and I've never used any input multiplication. I have however eaten a metric **** ton of PLEX.
Talking about this is reminding me of the frankly embarrassing amount of money I spent on multiple subscriptions before I eventually switched over to PLEX. |
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
64
|
Posted - 2014.12.13 15:30:04 -
[169] - Quote
Quote:Small crash seems to be in progress atm again. Time to buy :)
You don't want to wait a little till beginning of next year? With all the multibox alt accounts running out of subscription, i would assume, we'll see a slight price drop in january, don't you think? |
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 00:28:02 -
[170] - Quote
Damjan Fox wrote:Quote:Small crash seems to be in progress atm again. Time to buy :) You don't want to wait a little till beginning of next year? With all the multibox alt accounts running out of subscription, i would assume, we'll see a slight price drop in january, don't you think?
The only thing keeping Plex up now is the fact that so much of them are being used to transfer characters. Look at the number of Ishtar, Miner and boost characters for sale and tell me multibox changes haven't effected anything
Once all those accounts are firesold, or just unsubbed I predict a large flood of PLEX on the market as these accounts going from say 20 to 5 won't need the stockpile anymore.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=389930&find=unread There is 8x bombers gone and the guy even lists Isboxer as the reason lol Front page has 3x sets of miner toons and a set of marauder toons. |
|
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
223
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 02:24:52 -
[171] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:The only thing keeping Plex up now is the fact that so much of them are being used to transfer characters. Look at the number of Ishtar, Miner and boost characters for sale and tell me multibox changes haven't effected anything Once all those accounts are firesold, or just unsubbed I predict a large flood of PLEX on the market as these accounts going from say 20 to 5 won't need the stockpile anymore. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=389930&find=unread There is 8x bombers gone and the guy even lists Isboxer as the reason lol Front page has 3x sets of miner toons and a set of marauder toons. The thing is: all those chars on firesale will have to be dedicated to an account. I very much doubt they are being bought to sit in an unsubbed account. Because of this, I do not expect the ammount of subbed accounts to drop significantly in the grand scheme of things.
Listing one link to someone fireselling his chars is by no means proof of pending PLEX market price crash. Even with the news out on the isboxer nerf for quite some time, PLEX prices have not even dropped below the last spike peak (the summer one). That price peak was at about 820 million at it's height. We are still well above that atm.
I'm pretty sure that if you buy PLEX now, you'll be able to sell it within a year for 200+ million profit. If you're daytrading PLEX in jita atm, well, that's another story, but I'm not in the PLEX trade for daytrading in general. I just funnel "excess" isk into PLEX, turning it into more isk at my leisure. The worst thing that can happen is that I end up with a bunch of PLEX to sub my accounts with if they become worthless in terms of isk. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me... |
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2014.12.15 02:32:30 -
[172] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:The only thing keeping Plex up now is the fact that so much of them are being used to transfer characters. Look at the number of Ishtar, Miner and boost characters for sale and tell me multibox changes haven't effected anything Once all those accounts are firesold, or just unsubbed I predict a large flood of PLEX on the market as these accounts going from say 20 to 5 won't need the stockpile anymore. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=389930&find=unread There is 8x bombers gone and the guy even lists Isboxer as the reason lol Front page has 3x sets of miner toons and a set of marauder toons. The thing is: all those chars on firesale will have to be dedicated to an account. I very much doubt they are being bought to sit in an unsubbed account. Because of this, I do not expect the ammount of subbed accounts to drop significantly in the grand scheme of things. Listing one link to someone fireselling his chars is by no means proof of pending PLEX market price crash. Even with the news out on the isboxer nerf for quite some time, PLEX prices have not even dropped below the last spike peak (the summer one). That price peak was at about 820 million at it's height. We are still well above that atm. I'm pretty sure that if you buy PLEX now, you'll be able to sell it within a year for 200+ million profit. If you're daytrading PLEX in jita atm, well, that's another story, but I'm not in the PLEX trade for daytrading in general. I just funnel "excess" isk into PLEX, turning it into more isk at my leisure. The worst thing that can happen is that I end up with a bunch of PLEX to sub my accounts with if they become worthless in terms of isk. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me...
One of the reasons to buy an account instead of skill a character is to put it as your 3rd slot. I would wager a person buying a low skilled Mackinaw pilot that is one of 10 on sale with the same name as someone else isn't going to set up a new account just for that to be their new main. I would wager it is a side character to mine when something is going on they can't or won't use their main.
Also, many of these characters are being sold using the 2x plex in their accounts to transfer, after they transfer they may go to an account that is paypal based, or otherwise. Either way it is a negative pressure on PLEX. There are many negative pressures on PLEX and until subcription numbers increase I don't see much strong short term support. |
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
215
|
Posted - 2014.12.15 03:15:15 -
[173] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote: One of the reasons to buy an account instead of skill a character is to put it as your 3rd slot. I would wager a person buying a low skilled Mackinaw pilot that is one of 10 on sale with the same name as someone else isn't going to set up a new account just for that to be their new main. I would wager it is a side character to mine when something is going on they can't or won't use their main.
Also, many of these characters are being sold using the 2x plex in their accounts to transfer, after they transfer they may go to an account that is paypal based, or otherwise. Either way it is a negative pressure on PLEX. There are many negative pressures on PLEX and until subcription numbers increase I don't see much strong short term support.
toad are u saying plex prices will drop and ppl should sell them
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2014.12.15 05:20:57 -
[174] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Toad The Hitchhiker wrote: One of the reasons to buy an account instead of skill a character is to put it as your 3rd slot. I would wager a person buying a low skilled Mackinaw pilot that is one of 10 on sale with the same name as someone else isn't going to set up a new account just for that to be their new main. I would wager it is a side character to mine when something is going on they can't or won't use their main.
Also, many of these characters are being sold using the 2x plex in their accounts to transfer, after they transfer they may go to an account that is paypal based, or otherwise. Either way it is a negative pressure on PLEX. There are many negative pressures on PLEX and until subcription numbers increase I don't see much strong short term support.
toad are u saying plex prices will drop and ppl should sell them
People will do whatever they want with them. They are however a very tricky thing. One one hand you have the fact that everything in game is technically worthless (according to the EULA) and the other it gives you game time (worth $$$). On one hand you have the value of game time as a buffer to any isk fluctuations, on the other they are the single most secretive thing in the game. CCP does not talk about PLEX, they don't offer answers to questions about it. We have never known if any were ever seeded, how many are destroyed and how many were locked in inventory of banned accounts or what happens to those that are.
Personally, I would never stockpile something that has actual cash value but is technically worthless. Think about it, you are paying money to get something that converts into something that is worthless but may have worth some time in the future should things remain the same. Or you are paying worthless in game currency for someone else having spent cash for the same.
At the end of the day the idea of PLEX is horrible, at least time cards had a number and remained outside the game, but in the game anything could effect the price.
But to directly answer your question, yes PLEX price will drop, I don't know how long but I can say with a large amount of certainty that we are looking at a correction in the market from lack of demand. |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
224
|
Posted - 2014.12.15 09:40:32 -
[175] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:
People will do whatever they want with them. They are however a very tricky thing. One one hand you have the fact that everything in game is technically worthless (according to the EULA) and the other it gives you game time (worth $$$). On one hand you have the value of game time as a buffer to any isk fluctuations, on the other they are the single most secretive thing in the game. CCP does not talk about PLEX, they don't offer answers to questions about it. We have never known if any were ever seeded, how many are destroyed and how many were locked in inventory of banned accounts or what happens to those that are.
CCP has stated that it does intervene in PLEX markets if prices rise too fast (they're not aiming at any set price though), they have several tools for this. 1) they can sell PLEX at a discount, this has happened numerous times before. 2) they revealed that they have taken PLEX from banned accounts and dropped them into the market to stop price spikes. They did not create them out of thin air though.
Quote: Personally, I would never stockpile something that has actual cash value but is technically worthless. Think about it, you are paying money to get something that converts into something that is worthless but may have worth some time in the future should things remain the same. Or you are paying worthless in game currency for someone else having spent cash for the same.
At the end of the day the idea of PLEX is horrible, at least time cards had a number and remained outside the game, but in the game anything could effect the price.
But to directly answer your question, yes PLEX price will drop, I don't know how long but I can say with a large amount of certainty that we are looking at a correction in the market from lack of demand.
As soon as your cash becomes PLEX, it has no actual cash value anymore, you cannot revert it back to cash (legally at least). You can use it for things that would otherwise COST you cash instead (subs, fanfest tickets and whatnot) but it's never ever going to be cash again in a non-eula violating way.
So at that point, you have two main values left on your PLEX: a non set isk value in game and a set value of 30 days worth of subscription. The isk value has only gone up in the lifetime of PLEX (all 'crashes' so far have been little more than corrections after large price spikes after which the upward trend continued again). As for the ingame use of PLEX, only more options have been added (dual training, fanfest tickets etc etc) and the 30 days of subscription has remained the same. I very much doubt CCP is going to tamper with the number of subscription days on existing PLEX ever.
Knowing all this, I feel very safe with my PLEX investment both isk wise and playtime wise. For things to work out badly isk wise on my current PLEX stock (which is laughably small by the standards of the big boys) prices would have to drop below 600 million isk and stay there. That's roughly where they were a year ago.
Again, I would not mind lower PLEX prices, hell, if they'd hit rock bottom I'd be delighted even and prolly get several more accounts.
Edit: just after writing this I saw I sold a PLEX that I was high balling for just under 900 million |
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 00:09:06 -
[176] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:
People will do whatever they want with them. They are however a very tricky thing. One one hand you have the fact that everything in game is technically worthless (according to the EULA) and the other it gives you game time (worth $$$). On one hand you have the value of game time as a buffer to any isk fluctuations, on the other they are the single most secretive thing in the game. CCP does not talk about PLEX, they don't offer answers to questions about it. We have never known if any were ever seeded, how many are destroyed and how many were locked in inventory of banned accounts or what happens to those that are.
CCP has stated that it does intervene in PLEX markets if prices rise too fast (they're not aiming at any set price though), they have several tools for this. 1) they can sell PLEX at a discount, this has happened numerous times before. 2) they revealed that they have taken PLEX from banned accounts and dropped them into the market to stop price spikes. They did not create them out of thin air though. Quote: Personally, I would never stockpile something that has actual cash value but is technically worthless. Think about it, you are paying money to get something that converts into something that is worthless but may have worth some time in the future should things remain the same. Or you are paying worthless in game currency for someone else having spent cash for the same.
At the end of the day the idea of PLEX is horrible, at least time cards had a number and remained outside the game, but in the game anything could effect the price.
But to directly answer your question, yes PLEX price will drop, I don't know how long but I can say with a large amount of certainty that we are looking at a correction in the market from lack of demand.
As soon as your cash becomes PLEX, it has no actual cash value anymore, you cannot revert it back to cash (legally at least). You can use it for things that would otherwise COST you cash instead (subs, fanfest tickets and whatnot) but it's never ever going to be cash again in a non-eula violating way. So at that point, you have two main values left on your PLEX: a non set isk value in game and a set value of 30 days worth of subscription. The isk value has only gone up in the lifetime of PLEX (all 'crashes' so far have been little more than corrections after large price spikes after which the upward trend continued again). As for the ingame use of PLEX, only more options have been added (dual training, fanfest tickets etc etc) and the 30 days of subscription has remained the same. I very much doubt CCP is going to tamper with the number of subscription days on existing PLEX ever. Knowing all this, I feel very safe with my PLEX investment both isk wise and playtime wise. For things to work out badly isk wise on my current PLEX stock (which is laughably small by the standards of the big boys) prices would have to drop below 600 million isk and stay there. That's roughly where they were a year ago. Again, I would not mind lower PLEX prices, hell, if they'd hit rock bottom I'd be delighted even and prolly get several more accounts. Edit: just after writing this I saw I sold a PLEX that I was high balling for just under 900 million
Just because someone was dumb enough to buy out of hub or unsorted market goods doesn't mean the bubble is growing again. Plex remains stubborn at 820-830mil. Again, there is no demand to push an increase.
And yes I know that cash -> plex cannot go the other way directly, which is why I would never suggest stockpiling something that doesn't actually exist is good. Again, if CCP wanted to they could sell plex for $5 a piece and crash the market, they could also stop the plex for training or plex for transfers. There is a number of things that CCP could do or undo that effect plex. Since the system is out of the hands of the player I don't feel it is a worthwhile investment unless you have the account numbers to utilize your future stockpiles. |
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
217
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 03:01:50 -
[177] - Quote
laymans terms:
plex are rectangles |
Cista2
Phoibe Enterprises
37
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 08:21:09 -
[178] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote: 2) they revealed that they have taken PLEX from banned accounts and dropped them into the market to stop price spikes.
Can anyone link to where this is described? I would like to know what CCP/NPC sell orders would look like, how large they were etc. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
671
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 08:52:41 -
[179] - Quote
I don't think they ever discussed those details. |
Cista2
Phoibe Enterprises
37
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 10:24:47 -
[180] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:I don't think they ever discussed those details. I meant, described by players. If there are any npc PLEX orders on the market, and this was stated as fact in the post above, then surely players would have been on to it and discussing it.
|
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Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
1505
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 11:11:44 -
[181] - Quote
Don't think CCP is bound by selling PLEX from banned accounts on npc's. |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
228
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 11:58:07 -
[182] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:
Just because someone was dumb enough to buy out of hub or unsorted market goods doesn't mean the bubble is growing again. Plex remains stubborn at 820-830mil. Again, there is no demand to push an increase.
I don't know if they are 'stubborn' at 820-830, it's still trending downwards atm. We're at about the top of the previous big spike (the summer one). That is not uncommon in PLEX price history. After the summer spike, prices dropped back in the 750-800 range. Prices would have to drop below that level before you can say that the current downward trend is more than the usual correction after a spike.
As in terms of ISK investment: prices at the current level are still roughly 200 million higher then they were a year ago, they were at 600+ back then. So PLEX purchased back then still make you a nifty 30+% profit for just having them sit in your hangar.
Quote: And yes I know that cash -> plex cannot go the other way directly, which is why I would never suggest stockpiling something that doesn't actually exist is good. Again, if CCP wanted to they could sell plex for $5 a piece and crash the market, they could also stop the plex for training or plex for transfers. There is a number of things that CCP could do or undo that effect plex. Since the system is out of the hands of the player I don't feel it is a worthwhile investment unless you have the account numbers to utilize your future stockpiles.
CCP can do lots of things, the risk is in how likely it is that they will do it. History teaches us that CCP has only done things that make PLEX more desirable so far and have never ever tampered with the intrinsic value of PLEX (the 30 day sub). Now compare that to any other commodity in the game and then tell me that PLEX is not the safest thing to invest in for long term investment plans. |
Nemah Xadi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 17:29:25 -
[183] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:History teaches us that CCP has only done things that make PLEX more desirable so far and have never ever tampered with the intrinsic value of PLEX (the 30 day sub).
I never thought they would do what they did to Isboxer.
Never ever.
Though I'm sure it will never ever happen again. |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
228
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 19:05:13 -
[184] - Quote
Nemah Xadi wrote:Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:History teaches us that CCP has only done things that make PLEX more desirable so far and have never ever tampered with the intrinsic value of PLEX (the 30 day sub). I never thought they would do what they did to Isboxer. Never ever. Though I'm sure it will never ever happen again.
Then you were a bit naive. Isboxer has been borderlining botting for a long time, I expect them to enforce cache scraping too in the not too distant future for instance, which has been ignored for years now.
And if you think that there is a realistic chance that CCP is going to nerf PLEX intrinsic value without compensation for existing stocks, you're a bit naive as well. I'm not even sure it would be possible legally. Yesyes, we know PLEX is an ingame item and fall under the EULA and by that definition they can do whatever they want with it but it would be interesting to see how that holds up in court in a class action law suit. It would be much the same as buying a gift card for 20 bucks which then get's turned into a gift card for 10 bucks. Even if it were possible it would **** off so many ppl that I suspect the Summer of Rage will be dwarfed by it.
You're right if you're saying that it CAN happen but you're wrong if you think that it is likely to happen. Pretty much everything else in EVE is a much more risky investment as they don't represent an intrinsic value so important as the stuff you can do with PLEX. There are countless examples of nerfs and buffs to pretty much everything in game, there are none (0, that is zero) for PLEX.
So again: based on that knowledge, what do you think is the safest investment in EVE? *Any item* or PLEX? |
Cista2
Phoibe Enterprises
38
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 21:30:13 -
[185] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:So again: based on that knowledge, what do you think is the safest investment in EVE? *Any item* or PLEX? Melted nanoribbons, clearly! |
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 01:24:35 -
[186] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Nemah Xadi wrote:Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:History teaches us that CCP has only done things that make PLEX more desirable so far and have never ever tampered with the intrinsic value of PLEX (the 30 day sub). I never thought they would do what they did to Isboxer. Never ever. Though I'm sure it will never ever happen again. Then you were a bit naive. Isboxer has been borderlining botting for a long time, I expect them to enforce cache scraping too in the not too distant future for instance, which has been ignored for years now. And if you think that there is a realistic chance that CCP is going to nerf PLEX intrinsic value without compensation for existing stocks, you're a bit naive as well. I'm not even sure it would be possible legally. Yesyes, we know PLEX is an ingame item and fall under the EULA and by that definition they can do whatever they want with it but it would be interesting to see how that holds up in court in a class action law suit. It would be much the same as buying a gift card for 20 bucks which then get's turned into a gift card for 10 bucks. Even if it were possible it would **** off so many ppl that I suspect the Summer of Rage will be dwarfed by it. You're right if you're saying that it CAN happen but you're wrong if you think that it is likely to happen. Pretty much everything else in EVE is a much more risky investment as they don't represent an intrinsic value so important as the stuff you can do with PLEX. There are countless examples of nerfs and buffs to pretty much everything in game, there are none (0, that is zero) for PLEX. So again: based on that knowledge, what do you think is the safest investment in EVE? *Any item* or PLEX?
And in many of the countries with large Eve subscribers PLEX is borderline illegal. Do not fool yourself into thinking that PLEX is anything more than one court case away from being worthless in this game. Perhaps not worthless, just not worth what you think it would be.
Imagine holding 100 plex as your life savings in eve... it becomes illegal tender for in game transactions (because ganking and destroying plex would be akin to larceny in most countries). The PLEX is declared valid only for game time and is auto applied to the account you hold. How worthwhile is it to have 100 months of game time in a game that might not live that long?
Everything could change, as many things have in the past and will in the future. I would say the most worthwhile investment in game if you don't like isk is Trit... as the game has always used it and always will. But again, I wouldn't stockpile anything that has no actual live value, hence I would stockpile nothing in eve.
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Nornir Empire
463
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 01:29:16 -
[187] - Quote
Toad, do you really believe this rubbish you're spouting?
.
|
Makhpella
Temet Nosce Ex Astra
5
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 02:43:31 -
[188] - Quote
He is American for sure."one court case away from being worthless" roflmao |
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 05:19:29 -
[189] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Toad, do you really believe this rubbish you're spouting?
You willing to put everything you worked for in this game, possibly even real life cash up to the support the belief that PLEX will be around forever and CCP doesn't ever mess with the market of the most secretive item in it's history? OK, have fun.
And to the American hater there... is it supposed to be an insult that you think Americans are the only ones with courts?! |
Artemis Scat
Inertia Mining Industries
23
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 05:27:52 -
[190] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote: And to the American hater there... is it supposed to be an insult that you think Americans are the only ones with courts?!
I think the fact that because you took Makhpella's observation as an affront to being American and as a personal insult, you very much verified his opinion. |
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 05:31:51 -
[191] - Quote
Artemis Scat wrote:Toad The Hitchhiker wrote: And to the American hater there... is it supposed to be an insult that you think Americans are the only ones with courts?!
I think the fact that because you took Makhpella's observation as an affront to being American and as a personal insult, you very much verified his opinion.
I am not American, but I do take affront that somehow they are viewed as the only ones with laws and courts. But this is off-topic.
So instead of trying to insult a person's national heritage, or perceived national heritage let us not discuss the actual topic at hand... |
Abyss Azizora
Viziam Amarr Empire
121
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 08:19:17 -
[192] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:I'd quite like to see PLEX have an expiry time after their first market transaction to stop people stockpiling them for trading and reselling later.
I'd also like to see Mila Kunis naked in my bed waiting for me later, however I know that won't happen either all because CCP is so greedy for people's real money and know higher PLEX prices means more in game stuff for people's money.... and less chance for Mila in my bed.
Barstewards.
That... actually makes a hell of a lot of sense. And as you said, makes too much sense for CCP to ever implement. But grats on coming up with a nearly perfect solution to the hoarding issue. |
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
221
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 09:19:43 -
[193] - Quote
Facts:
1) None of you idiots can predict the price: "how long is a piece of string" 2) Plex are definitely rectangular in shape. 3) It's speculated, although he denys it, Toad the hitchhiker is / was a butthurt multiboxer alt who Resides in america. 4) they are used to pay to win this game.
did i miss anything? |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
230
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 13:54:01 -
[194] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:
And in many of the countries with large Eve subscribers PLEX is borderline illegal. Do not fool yourself into thinking that PLEX is anything more than one court case away from being worthless in this game. Perhaps not worthless, just not worth what you think it would be.
Imagine holding 100 plex as your life savings in eve... it becomes illegal tender for in game transactions (because ganking and destroying plex would be akin to larceny in most countries). The PLEX is declared valid only for game time and is auto applied to the account you hold. How worthwhile is it to have 100 months of game time in a game that might not live that long?
Everything could change, as many things have in the past and will in the future. I would say the most worthwhile investment in game if you don't like isk is Trit... as the game has always used it and always will. But again, I wouldn't stockpile anything that has no actual live value, hence I would stockpile nothing in eve.
Buying digital gift cards is borderline illegal in many countries? If you say so
Shooting pixels in a video game is not illegal in any country I imagine. Threathening ppl IRL to hand over their PLEX would be, but just shooting someone in game, no. Perhaps in really, really backward places, North Korea comes to mind....
Pouring your life savings into a video game would be idiotic, don't spend what you can't or are not willing to lose goes for RL as much as it goes for EVE. Furthermore, how worthwile is it to hold anything in a game that might have the plug pulled at any moment?
Yes, everything could change, again, the risk is in how LIKELY it is that a change will happen that will make your stuff wortheless or worth significantly less. For reasons stated, that risk seems lowest on PLEX.
Trit: has been nerfed, buffed, nerfed, buffed, nerfed, buffed and this will most likely continue to get nerfed and buffed. So in this regard it compares poorly to PLEX. Ever since the artificial price cap was removed on it (shuttles were seeded by NPC's in the past and kept the trit price low) the market has been quite volatile for trit. Same goes for any mineral really.
As for stockpiling 'nothing', I'm guessing you're spending everything you make ASAP then? Earn isk, buy stuff, get stuff blown up cuz if you don't that would be like 'stockpiling', amirite? I wonder if you take this aproach IRL too as there is risk that 'everything changes' IRL too (and it does pretty often history teaches us).
OT: price still trending slowly downwards in jita, margins are thin though. |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
230
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 13:56:45 -
[195] - Quote
Abyss Azizora wrote:Vyktor Abyss wrote:I'd quite like to see PLEX have an expiry time after their first market transaction to stop people stockpiling them for trading and reselling later.
I'd also like to see Mila Kunis naked in my bed waiting for me later, however I know that won't happen either all because CCP is so greedy for people's real money and know higher PLEX prices means more in game stuff for people's money.... and less chance for Mila in my bed.
Barstewards.
That... actually makes a hell of a lot of sense. And as you said, makes too much sense for CCP to ever implement. But grats on coming up with a nearly perfect solution to the hoarding issue. It makes as much sense as saying: there will be an expiration date on *anything you buy*. if it should happen to PLEX though, I'd simply activate them all on my accounts... |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Nornir Empire
469
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 16:34:39 -
[196] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote:Toad, do you really believe this rubbish you're spouting? You willing to put everything you worked for in this game, possibly even real life cash up to the support the belief that PLEX will be around forever and CCP doesn't ever mess with the market of the most secretive item in it's history? OK, have fun.
Yep, because I think you're chatting nonsense that means I put everything I've played for and real life cash into an item in a video game to earn more video game money .
.
|
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 22:56:01 -
[197] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote:Toad, do you really believe this rubbish you're spouting? You willing to put everything you worked for in this game, possibly even real life cash up to the support the belief that PLEX will be around forever and CCP doesn't ever mess with the market of the most secretive item in it's history? OK, have fun.!
How is that much different than putting time into a game that could be gone in a year? Once those servers are turned off you do not even have a single player piece left. It's alllll gone |
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
237
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 15:10:22 -
[198] - Quote
those plex sales though
surprised the great toad hasn't done the told u so thing.
sell sell sell sell sell ( FOOTLOOSE ERA KEVIN BACON VOICE)
|
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2200
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 23:12:55 -
[199] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:And in many of the countries with large Eve subscribers PLEX is borderline illegal. Do not fool yourself into thinking that PLEX is anything more than one court case away from being worthless in this game. Perhaps not worthless, just not worth what you think it would be.
Imagine holding 100 plex as your life savings in eve... it becomes illegal tender for in game transactions (because ganking and destroying plex would be akin to larceny in most countries). The PLEX is declared valid only for game time and is auto applied to the account you hold. How worthwhile is it to have 100 months of game time in a game that might not live that long?
Everything could change, as many things have in the past and will in the future. I would say the most worthwhile investment in game if you don't like isk is Trit... as the game has always used it and always will. But again, I wouldn't stockpile anything that has no actual live value, hence I would stockpile nothing in eve.
the only appropriate answer
I should buy an Ishtar.
|
Ren Oren
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
65
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 08:10:29 -
[200] - Quote
30% discount plex sale on a site (forgot the name)
More bad news for plex holders |
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 18:45:50 -
[201] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:And in many of the countries with large Eve subscribers PLEX is borderline illegal. Do not fool yourself into thinking that PLEX is anything more than one court case away from being worthless in this game. Perhaps not worthless, just not worth what you think it would be.
Imagine holding 100 plex as your life savings in eve... it becomes illegal tender for in game transactions (because ganking and destroying plex would be akin to larceny in most countries). The PLEX is declared valid only for game time and is auto applied to the account you hold. How worthwhile is it to have 100 months of game time in a game that might not live that long?
Everything could change, as many things have in the past and will in the future. I would say the most worthwhile investment in game if you don't like isk is Trit... as the game has always used it and always will. But again, I wouldn't stockpile anything that has no actual live value, hence I would stockpile nothing in eve.
the only appropriate answer
You can make fun all you want to... but if you took 1 trillion isk and bought Plex one year ago today, and I bought 1 tril of Trit
You would have 1.25 trillion in isk if you sold your plex today (and dropping) and I would have 1.33 tril isk for selling my trit (and increasing)
Trit can't go anywhere without massive changes to the game, Plex is a relatively new market item, with a relatively experimental application for in game trading. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Nornir Empire
471
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 19:33:33 -
[202] - Quote
If you bought 1T of PLEX one year ago and sold it a few weeks ago you would have 1.544T
If you bought 1T of Tritanium one year ago and sold it a few weeks ago you would have 1.165T
It's not just about what you buy and sell, but when you buy and sell it too.
Also these:
http://www.eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=34#history http://eve-marketdata.com/price_check.php?type_id=29668
.
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 20:01:14 -
[203] - Quote
Right, just like if you bought 1 tril of plex a month or two ago and tried to sell it now you would have less than 900bil?
Got it, your examples only are relevant when they support your talking points. |
Makhpella
Temet Nosce Ex Astra
18
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 11:27:48 -
[204] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker
http://youtu.be/SGvDtc2Ye04
|
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
238
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 14:47:03 -
[205] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote: Nobody belittles the trit market, it's just that trit has been much more volatile throughout EVE history. The recent spike is speculation/manipulation cuz of the ISBoxer nerf mostly I reckon. There have been many changes that affected supply and demand for trit throughout the years due to changing game mechanics, both adding negative pressure and positive pressure on the price. For PLEX, all changes made so far have added positive pressure on the price. I doubt CCP is going to remove uses for PLEX anytime soon.
Again, in a worst case scenario you end up with something that has turned out to be a very bad isk investment. That still leaves you with loads of game time (or fanfest tickets). I could live with that. Hell, in fact I'd love to see PLEX crash down to 200 million or lower
Edit: OT: trending downwards again, 800 million is starting to get closer. Should it drop below 800 things would be getting interesting as that means it will be entering the price range in which PLEX stabilized after the summer peak. |
N00B-SAIB0T
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 17:21:10 -
[206] - Quote
PLEX dropped to below 800 million in the last day or two. At roughly 792 million last I checked. I just resubbed about 3 weeks ago, when it was still 885-ish million. Almost a 100 million ISK drop in less than a month.
Will be interesting to see how low it goes. |
Nemah Xadi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 17:50:14 -
[207] - Quote
There are people putting up buy orders for hundreds of PLEX at 800m over the last few days, it only briefly drops below 800m as those get filled up. The fatcats seem to think this is a time to buy, and I wouldn't expect it to go lower than this either.
Save Nemah!
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 17:53:06 -
[208] - Quote
Nemah Xadi wrote:There are people putting up buy orders for hundreds of PLEX at 800m over the last few days, it only briefly drops below 800m as those get filled up. The fatcats seem to think this is a time to buy, and I wouldn't expect it to go lower than this either.
Just watch. They don't have the isk to stop what is coming. |
Nemah Xadi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 18:31:47 -
[209] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Just watch. They don't have the isk to stop what is coming.
I would like for you to be correct Sir, but since you are clearly a grade A moron, I shan't be holding my breath.
Save Nemah!
|
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
247
|
Posted - 2014.12.25 09:08:12 -
[210] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Nemah Xadi wrote:There are people putting up buy orders for hundreds of PLEX at 800m over the last few days, it only briefly drops below 800m as those get filled up. The fatcats seem to think this is a time to buy, and I wouldn't expect it to go lower than this either. Just watch. They don't have the isk to stop what is coming.
toad is right guys
tiiiimber (fred flintstone voice)
sell them now or be dunked by ..... . ....... toad
thats right, the toad ! the guy who in his wisdom, predicted this would happen
please, step forward if you took a dive on this based solely of "what you read on the forums" Give toad the satisfaction, that had you read butthurt retorical post #24432 you would have avoided this!
"just buy more from the store"
that rhymes!
go go 500m! |
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.12.25 15:23:55 -
[211] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Nemah Xadi wrote:There are people putting up buy orders for hundreds of PLEX at 800m over the last few days, it only briefly drops below 800m as those get filled up. The fatcats seem to think this is a time to buy, and I wouldn't expect it to go lower than this either. Just watch. They don't have the isk to stop what is coming. toad is right guys tiiiimber (fred flintstone voice) sell them now or be dunked by ..... . ....... toad thats right, the toad ! the guy who in his wisdom, predicted this would happen please, step forward if you took a dive on this based solely of "what you read on the forums" Give toad the satisfaction, that had you read butthurt retorical post #24432 you would have avoided this! "just buy more from the store" that rhymes! go go 500m!
Not sure what that was about.
But the bottom of the market cap just fell out. Warning to those who still have PLEX for short term gain, there is nothing substantial stopping a 750m price by the end of the day.
Also warning, hundreds of eve players just got amazon (plex sale) and paypal gift cards... expect a fresh batch of plex on the market to add to the 200 sell orders placed at 795 last night.
|
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
247
|
Posted - 2014.12.25 19:12:41 -
[212] - Quote
Nemah Xadi wrote:Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Just watch. They don't have the isk to stop what is coming. I would like for you to be correct Sir, but since you are clearly a grade A moron, I shan't be holding my breath.
dunked by toad the hitchhiker, be mad.
plex at under 800m :) |
Ren Oren
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
75
|
Posted - 2014.12.26 03:20:24 -
[213] - Quote
Plex @ 791
And I don't see the block trades anymore, seems they decided it wasn't a good idea to catch falling knives.
For now plex is back to being just a game time extension and not a investment or trade to speculate higher |
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.12.26 05:28:54 -
[214] - Quote
Plex dropped to 768mil with several good sized orders. All support between 750 and current sell prices gone.
Hope you all enjoyed your Christmas. |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
245
|
Posted - 2014.12.26 05:47:01 -
[215] - Quote
I figure the best theory is that you would want to own an asset that took a fixed amount of player TIME to produce and of course had utility enough that players still would take the time to produce it.
ISK costs less and less to gather over time due to mud inflation... (and CCP does a good job at not letting it get out of hand)
The risk with Plex is that they may increasingly feel forced to make game time cheaper and cheaper in real $ ... and then hope to sell just as many plex for people to instead fund more accounts or spend the same $100 to buy a carrier (or whatever equates to $100 these days) buying 16 plex at 6$ a piece instead of 6 plex at $16$ a piece.
They may discover that the game time can be cheaper in real $ but make it up in volume ....
That might sound weird but plenty of FtP games really aren't free at all for most players and only a portion of what they pay per month is for their "premium" subscriptions
I know FtP ruins games..
...we're talking investment here though, not what we want.
If we want to play EVE markets in a way that will make our hordes as valuable as possible compared to the average ISK riches of other players.....get ahead in comparative ISK wealth... thinking of the META issues concerning financial motivations can effect the value
... time value .. 1 hour of a human players time..that's what I'd like to keep parity with....
..but I'll take the risk with Plex and characters even if I think they'll 1/2 life once....
Why ? The make things like Invention easier to do and suddenly my horde of expanded cargo bays falls in ISK and ISK doesn't buy the plex it used to.. AND Plex don't cost the Dollars they used to... ... that's a triple whammy loss
I'll never RMT my isk.. those are CCP assets...but I will score the value of my game holdings in dollar equivalent to gage whether I'm getting ahead or falling behind.
.
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.12.26 06:04:00 -
[216] - Quote
Diomedes Calypso wrote:I figure the best theory is that you would want to own an asset that took a fixed amount of player TIME to produce and of course had utility enough that players still would take the time to produce it.
ISK costs less and less to gather over time due to mud inflation... (and CCP does a good job at not letting it get out of hand)
The risk with Plex is that they may increasingly feel forced to make game time cheaper and cheaper in real $ ... and then hope to sell just as many plex for people to instead fund more accounts or spend the same $100 to buy a carrier (or whatever equates to $100 these days) buying 16 plex at 6$ a piece instead of 6 plex at $16$ a piece.
They may discover that the game time can be cheaper in real $ but make it up in volume ....
That might sound weird but plenty of FtP games really aren't free at all for most players and only a portion of what they pay per month is for their "premium" subscriptions
I know FtP ruins games..
...we're talking investment here though, not what we want.
If we want to play EVE markets in a way that will make our hordes as valuable as possible compared to the average ISK riches of other players.....get ahead in comparative ISK wealth... thinking of the META issues concerning financial motivations can effect the value
... time value .. 1 hour of a human players time..that's what I'd like to keep parity with....
..but I'll take the risk with Plex and characters even if I think they'll 1/2 life once....
Why ? The make things like Invention easier to do and suddenly my horde of expanded cargo bays falls in ISK and ISK doesn't buy the plex it used to.. AND Plex don't cost the Dollars they used to... ... that's a triple whammy loss
I'll never RMT my isk.. those are CCP assets...but I will score the value of my game holdings in dollar equivalent to gage whether I'm getting ahead or falling behind.
So it is your theory then that Plex is a horrible investment because the price IRL monies has always dropped and the value of In Game Isk has always decreased as well?
Plex is a horrible investment because we cannot control the supply, or the utility. I think this recent week's price crash backs up at least some of what I have been saying. |
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
250
|
Posted - 2014.12.26 06:27:23 -
[217] - Quote
i really do think that toads avatar has ALOT to do with ppl instantly dis-agreeing with him.
if you want to stock plex (for some stupid reason), put up buy orders for 500m & wait. |
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.12.26 13:25:25 -
[218] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:i really do think that toads avatar has ALOT to do with ppl instantly dis-agreeing with him.
if you want to stock plex (for some stupid reason), put up buy orders for 500m & wait.
That is about what I get for "randomize all" and accept without double checking.
Oh well.
Someone is making a valiant effort in Amarr to buy up a bunch of sell orders, but Jita fell last night to 783 so the Amarr orders are pretty hilarious. Plex down to 760 by the end of the weekend :)
There is a massive oversupply on the market right now, even for speculation. We are looking at 23% more PLEX for sale in the four hubs than there is buy orders in the entire game. |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
245
|
Posted - 2014.12.26 21:21:27 -
[219] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:
So it is your theory then that Plex is a horrible investment because the price IRL monies has always dropped and the value of In Game Isk has always decreased as well?
Plex is a horrible investment because we cannot control the supply, or the utility. I think this recent week's price crash backs up at least some of what I have been saying.
Well sort of,
I think I'm saying what you are another way. Even if you don't agree with my thinking as I expressed it (in my wordy manner) I do agree with exactly what you are saying.
"we cannot control the supply or utility" Exactly (I explained why I thought supply would increase for Meta reasons and utility would become less scarce)
BUT
I wouldn't call it a "horrible investment" because it is as good or better as the next best ideas I have for PASSIVE (like unsubscibed holdings type of passive) parking of game assets. I anticipate game time coming down to maybe $10 a month
... so I know I'll lose half of the theoretical RMT value...but I don't see doing much better with other assets and at least I see a bottom.
Trit ? yes that does make a fair bit of sense to me. that might be a better bet than holding characters or game time tokens... maybe I will put 1/4 of my game assets there.
My main theory was that Player Time ingame.. not character time, is the greatest constant and so an asset that will take just as much time to collect in the future as the present would be the best investment. I'd need to trust that it doesn't become easier to mine Trit per player hour...or that the game requires less trit but some players continue to collect it as a by product of some other activity, and that is something I am wary about.
.
|
Nemah Xadi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2014.12.26 23:01:52 -
[220] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:dunked by toad the hitchhiker, be mad.
plex at under 800m :)
Oh no, I'm pleased to be wrong :)
Lets try that again: I'm sure it won't go below 700m in a week.
I wonder if those 50-100 buy orders might actually be CCP keeping the prices from falling too fast...
Save Nemah!
|
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.12.27 00:57:06 -
[221] - Quote
Diomedes Calypso wrote:Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:
So it is your theory then that Plex is a horrible investment because the price IRL monies has always dropped and the value of In Game Isk has always decreased as well?
Plex is a horrible investment because we cannot control the supply, or the utility. I think this recent week's price crash backs up at least some of what I have been saying.
Well sort of, I think I'm saying what you are another way. Even if you don't agree with my thinking as I expressed it (in my wordy manner) I do agree with exactly what you are saying. "we cannot control the supply or utility" Exactly (I explained why I thought supply would increase for Meta reasons and utility would become less scarce) BUT I wouldn't call it a "horrible investment" because it is as good or better as the next best ideas I have for PASSIVE (like unsubscibed holdings type of passive) parking of game assets. I anticipate game time coming down to maybe $10 a month ... so I know I'll lose half of the theoretical RMT value...but I don't see doing much better with other assets and at least I see a bottom. Trit ? yes that does make a fair bit of sense to me. that might be a better bet than holding characters or game time tokens... maybe I will put 1/4 of my game assets there. My main theory was that Player Time ingame.. not character time, is the greatest constant and so an asset that will take just as much time to collect in the future as the present would be the best investment. I'd need to trust that it doesn't become easier to mine Trit per player hour...or that the game requires less trit but some players continue to collect it as a by product of some other activity, and that is something I am wary about.
I see what you are saying now.
Well my problem with Plex is multi-faceted and stems from two problems, one the demand is dropping as the player base becomes "younger" and new accounts buy old ones which requires Isk. Demand is dropping because subscription numbers are taking a beating and have been naturally declining for 3.5 years.
But two, my problem is also that while the argument that Plex has utility as game time is valid on its face, when one looks at the history of CCP and the decisions as of late, I wouldn't put much stock into anything being the same in 6 months as it is today. Look at the mutlibox rule changes, team industry reversal, the sudden inclusion of dual skill training, training itself was massively changed and of course the GTC change which was huge and was game altering.
And last like you said the supply cannot be controlled. Realize it would only take one Eve player winning the lottery, or inheiriting a lot of money to crash the market down to 0. 3600 buy orders up today, 4000 sell orders. If someone had say 50k euro they could sell to every buy order and leave 4000 units to trickle through the next few weeks in an already over supplied market.
The only sound reason for why Plex has "always gone up" is that the economy worldwide was in shambles when they released it and continued to stagnate along with massive inflation in the game from WH's and Incursions. If CCP were to nerf Incursions or WH's the value of isk would start to tighten again, Economics 101. If the global economy continues to improve like it already has in the US and Canada and Australia, then people will have disposable income for Plex again and your oversupply starts to become a real problem.
Anyways, Plex is being propped up by another valiant effort tonight @770 with several large buy orders... those will be filled by morning :) Crash continues
|
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics CODE.
255
|
Posted - 2014.12.27 06:38:00 -
[222] - Quote
Diomedes Calypso wrote:Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:
So it is your theory then that Plex is a horrible investment because the price IRL monies has always dropped and the value of In Game Isk has always decreased as well?
Plex is a horrible investment because we cannot control the supply, or the utility. I think this recent week's price crash backs up at least some of what I have been saying.
Well sort of, I think I'm saying what you are another way. Even if you don't agree with my thinking as I expressed it (in my wordy manner) I do agree with exactly what you are saying. "we cannot control the supply or utility" Exactly (I explained why I thought supply would increase for Meta reasons and utility would become less scarce) BUT I wouldn't call it a "horrible investment" because it is as good or better as the next best ideas I have for PASSIVE (like unsubscibed holdings type of passive) parking of game assets. I anticipate game time coming down to maybe $10 a month ... so I know I'll lose half of the theoretical RMT value...but I don't see doing much better with other assets and at least I see a bottom. Trit ? yes that does make a fair bit of sense to me. that might be a better bet than holding characters or game time tokens... maybe I will put 1/4 of my game assets there. My main theory was that Player Time ingame.. not character time, is the greatest constant and so an asset that will take just as much time to collect in the future as the present would be the best investment. I'd need to trust that it doesn't become easier to mine Trit per player hour...or that the game requires less trit but some players continue to collect it as a by product of some other activity, and that is something I am wary about.
A big issue with this theory is alts. People with alts are almost always going to plex that alt. And you will see a lot of variance in the value of alts.
For instance, the multibroadcasting changes saw a big downswing in the number of alts and thus plex demand. Multibox mining is still viable, but if CCP made that more difficult, we would see another downswing in the price of plex. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Nornir Empire
475
|
Posted - 2014.12.27 11:03:51 -
[223] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Well my problem with Plex is multi-faceted and stems from two problems, one the demand is dropping as the player base becomes "younger" and new accounts buy old ones which requires Isk. Demand is dropping because subscription numbers are taking a beating and have been naturally declining for 3.5 years.
[citation needed]
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:But two, my problem is also that while the argument that Plex has utility as game time is valid on its face, when one looks at the history of CCP and the decisions as of late, I wouldn't put much stock into anything being the same in 6 months as it is today. Look at the mutlibox rule changes, team industry reversal, the sudden inclusion of dual skill training, training itself was massively changed and of course the GTC change which was huge and was game altering.
Do you have any idea how many multiboxers there are (note that the rule changes are still not in effect), that teams is being removed because no one used them, that dual character training probably increased PLEX demand and what GTC change that was huge and game altering? The one that put out of game GTCs sold for ISK in game as PLEX and still sold for ISK?
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:And last like you said the supply cannot be controlled. Realize it would only take one Eve player winning the lottery, or inheiriting a lot of money to crash the market down to 0. 3600 buy orders up today, 4000 sell orders. If someone had say 50k euro they could sell to every buy order and leave 4000 units to trickle through the next few weeks in an already over supplied market.
Can you control the supply or utility of any item in the game? Also I've heard that we've already had an aluminium magnate fund his alliance via PLEX.
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:The only sound reason for why Plex has "always gone up" is that the economy worldwide was in shambles when they released it and continued to stagnate along with massive inflation in the game from WH's and Incursions. If CCP were to nerf Incursions or WH's the value of isk would start to tighten again, Economics 101. If the global economy continues to improve like it already has in the US and Canada and Australia, then people will have disposable income for Plex again and your oversupply starts to become a real problem.
[citation needed] According to Dr. Eyjo, the EVE economy is in slight deflation.
.
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.12.27 12:17:49 -
[224] - Quote
ITT: Elizabeth Norm trying desperately to keep the value of her Plex hording up.
I and others have explained all those reasons, but yet you want citation. Even the goons wrote about this back in July and after the CSM8 discussion on Plex. They said it then, most plex are consumed by accounts, however a lot of oversupply is sitting in hangers as investments, and that number has increased.
Overall demand for Plex has been steadily dropping and the amount purchased from CCP has increased but the price still went up. Dr. EyjoG explained that speculators had driven up the price and did it with the massive influx of Incursion and FW isk.
Also: "The final discussion point turned to PLEX. The graph very clearly showed both the FW driven spike and intervention by CCP - no further intervention has occurred since. EyjoG confirmed that their goal with plex is to prevent dramatic changes. Their preferred metric is PLEX price divided by subscriptions - maintaining a particular price is not a concern."
It was confirmed that CCP used banned accounts storage of Plex to seed the market at the end of last year and into this year.
Again, you cannot control the supply of Plex, if CCP magically decides the price is too high it drops it on it's own through Sales and Seeds.
You cannot control Utility. Plex is used for many things now, but that isn't always going to be the case. Trit is always used for ship and mod building until day this game ends. Some things have changed over time (pos fuel) but Plex is the only one that crosses RL and InG boundaries.
And we aren't in deflation yet... more like Stagnation: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65910/1/Indices_2014-02.png Keep trying Liz... those blocking orders at 770 were gobbled up quick. 768 new block but only one set of 50 left. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Nornir Empire
475
|
Posted - 2014.12.27 13:02:29 -
[225] - Quote
You've just made unsubstantiated claims, most likely pulled out of your arse.
I'm just here to make ISK, whether that's through PLEX or otherwise (my investments are more diverse than just PLEX) and so far I'm doing okay. If PLEX goes down, that just means Fanfest and EVE Vegas are cheaper for me. You're the one with a vendetta against PLEX and shouting random things.
.
|
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
251
|
Posted - 2014.12.27 13:05:49 -
[226] - Quote
ITT: Toad looks on from the backrow in amazement as plex prices get pumped and dumped.
(hes also been waiting for the popcorn guy to come up for the last 2 hours, he wonders the rest of the evening if when he went to take a ****, that the guy had been then and he missed his window, he will never know.)
spreading it a little thick, your posts are tl:dr you want a cookie dude? |
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.12.27 13:13:15 -
[227] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:You've just made unsubstantiated claims, most likely pulled out of your arse.
I'm just here to make ISK, whether that's through PLEX or otherwise (my investments are more diverse than just PLEX) and so far I'm doing okay. If PLEX goes down, that just means Fanfest and EVE Vegas are cheaper for me. You're the one with a vendetta against PLEX and shouting random things.
You said inflation, Eyjo said deflation, now you say stagnation.
General Economy = Stagflation Certain areas pertinent to this discusion = ... guess for yourself
I personally couldn't care less what Eyjo said except that he confirmed that CCP intervene's in Plex prices by seeding the market with confiscated Plex... hence even more reason not to use it as an Isk Park.
And if you truly believe the game is experiencing Deflation the LAST place you want to park your isk is in an item, you want to park it liquid. |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
240
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 11:23:06 -
[228] - Quote
Well over 800 again now in Jita. Trend break or correction after steep price fall? Time will tell but I'm not holding my breath that we'll be seeing prices go down much more... |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
182
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 11:51:32 -
[229] - Quote
900 incoming!
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
|
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
255
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 11:59:10 -
[230] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Well over 800 again now in Jita. Trend break or correction after steep price fall? Time will tell but I'm not holding my breath that we'll be seeing prices go down much more...
and less than 2 hours ago it was :
797 / 780 in Jita, (now (814 / 792) 780 / 764 in amarr (now 814 / 764)
Dodixie is still at (797 / 768)
would love to hear from toadfish the hitchhiker to get a professional opinion. |
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 12:34:14 -
[231] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Well over 800 again now in Jita. Trend break or correction after steep price fall? Time will tell but I'm not holding my breath that we'll be seeing prices go down much more... and less than 2 hours ago it was : 797 / 780 in Jita, (now (814 / 792) 780 / 764 in amarr (now 814 / 764) Dodixie is still at (797 / 768) would love to hear from toadfish the hitchhiker to get a professional opinion.
Sunday has more players log in and therefore more demand. I was expecting demand stripped so far down that it woudn't matter. Expect a fall throughout the week, especially on holiday.
Also outside of Jita (hubs) the true price of plex is still being reflected down faster.
Also there was that little problem where some RMT got blown up in a rookie ship with 86 plex in his hold and of course not one of them dropped. (Tin Foil)
|
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 17:04:13 -
[232] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:ITT: Elizabeth Norm trying desperately to keep the value of her Plex hording up. I and others have explained all those reasons, but yet you want citation. Even the goons wrote about this back in July and after the CSM8 discussion on Plex. They said it then, most plex are consumed by accounts, however a lot of oversupply is sitting in hangers as investments, and that number has increased. Overall demand for Plex has been steadily dropping and the amount purchased from CCP has increased but the price still went up. Dr. EyjoG explained that speculators had driven up the price and did it with the massive influx of Incursion and FW isk. Also: "The final discussion point turned to PLEX. The graph very clearly showed both the FW driven spike and intervention by CCP - no further intervention has occurred since. EyjoG confirmed that their goal with plex is to prevent dramatic changes. Their preferred metric is PLEX price divided by subscriptions - maintaining a particular price is not a concern." It was confirmed that CCP used banned accounts storage of Plex to seed the market at the end of last year and into this year. Again, you cannot control the supply of Plex, if CCP magically decides the price is too high it drops it on it's own through Sales and Seeds. You cannot control Utility. Plex is used for many things now, but that isn't always going to be the case. Trit is always used for ship and mod building until day this game ends. Some things have changed over time (pos fuel) but Plex is the only one that crosses RL and InG boundaries. And we aren't in deflation yet... more like Stagnation: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65910/1/Indices_2014-02.png Keep trying Liz... those blocking orders at 770 were gobbled up quick. 768 new block but only one set of 50 left.
If that chart is your demonstration of "stagflation",I can only conclude you have no idea what stagflation is. How does one determine unemployment in eve btw? |
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
255
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 18:17:01 -
[233] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote: If that chart is your demonstration of "stagflation",I can only conclude you have no idea what stagflation is. How does one determine unemployment in eve btw?
lets see toad wiggle out of this one. |
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 20:42:11 -
[234] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote: If that chart is your demonstration of "stagflation",I can only conclude you have no idea what stagflation is. How does one determine unemployment in eve btw?
lets see toad wiggle out of this one.
Easy, I never used the word "Stagflation"
I said STAGNATION... meaning not up or down. |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
240
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 20:43:35 -
[235] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote: If that chart is your demonstration of "stagflation",I can only conclude you have no idea what stagflation is. How does one determine unemployment in eve btw?
lets see toad wiggle out of this one. I still haven't figured out yet WHAT he is trying to wiggle exactly.... If I had to make a guess I'd say he's basicly a PLEX hater. If he hates them out of principle (some PPL do) or that he just hates ppl making isk off of them I dunno...
He also made a case out of ANYTHING being a bad idea to invest in cuz of 'everything could change!1!!!11one!' (which I'm sure the average trader/invester is quite aware of and keeps his eggs in several baskets) and whatnot....
OT: jita price seems to be settling nicely above 800. If this upward trend is not followed by a renewed downward trend soon the 'Great PLEX Price Crash of Fall 2014' will not have been a great crash at all and will go down in history as a correction, a rather big correction in PLEX history but just a correction nontheless.
Interesting historical price comparison on X-mas PLEX price: http://nosygamer.blogspot.nl/2014/12/a-quick-history-of-christmas-plex-prices.html |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
683
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 20:58:46 -
[236] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:General Economy = Stagflation Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Easy, I never used the word "Stagflation" Jerry T Pepridge wrote:lets see toad wiggle out of this one.
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 21:45:25 -
[237] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:General Economy = Stagflation Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Easy, I never used the word "Stagflation" Jerry T Pepridge wrote:lets see toad wiggle out of this one.
Yep I did mistype that one time, The quoted post, the quoted post when I responded, the initial post all were stagnation.
Anyways, does this detract from the fact that Jita is lone prop up of the cost of Plex? All of Eve just dropped to 771 again, so the attempt to holdup the price is starting to crumble.
There are some very wealthy people trying to keep this price up. I think they just don't like me
Anyways, I am signing off, too much hate and I don't benefit from voicing my opinion. And that is all this is, opinion. No one knows the future. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Nornir Empire
480
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 21:46:12 -
[238] - Quote
Also:-
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:The only sound reason for why Plex has "always gone up" is that the economy worldwide was in shambles when they released it and continued to stagnate along with massive inflation in the game from WH's and Incursions. If CCP were to nerf Incursions or WH's the value of isk would start to tighten again, Economics 101. If the global economy continues to improve like it already has in the US and Canada and Australia, then people will have disposable income for Plex again and your oversupply starts to become a real problem.
.
|
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 21:49:21 -
[239] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Also:- Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:The only sound reason for why Plex has "always gone up" is that the economy worldwide was in shambles when they released it and continued to stagnate along with massive inflation in the game from WH's and Incursions. If CCP were to nerf Incursions or WH's the value of isk would start to tighten again, Economics 101. If the global economy continues to improve like it already has in the US and Canada and Australia, then people will have disposable income for Plex again and your oversupply starts to become a real problem.
What did you discover Matlock?
I said it before. Isk supply is inflated, massively. Prices have been stagnant.... Plex is not a normal Eve commodity. Plex is injected from outside the game, the rest of the items are from inside the game.
So again, what would you like to show the Jury as exhibit A? |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 22:35:22 -
[240] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:General Economy = Stagflation Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Easy, I never used the word "Stagflation" Jerry T Pepridge wrote:lets see toad wiggle out of this one. Yep I did mistype that one time, The quoted post, the quoted post when I responded, the initial post all were stagnation. Anyways, does this detract from the fact that Jita is lone prop up of the cost of Plex? All of Eve just dropped to 771 again, so the attempt to holdup the price is starting to crumble. There are some very wealthy people trying to keep this price up. I think they just don't like me Anyways, I am signing off, too much hate and I don't benefit from voicing my opinion. And that is all this is, opinion. No one knows the future.
Yes I did see the stagflation post then scrolled and saw the stagnation chart as one in the same. It was all typo and misread |
|
Makhpella
Temet Nosce Ex Astra
21
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 12:03:24 -
[241] - Quote
Can someone tell me what is Toad trying to say? I cant comprehend it. Should I sell my freighter full of plex or should I undock it?
btw: It is Charon with T2 cargohold expanders. |
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 13:49:12 -
[242] - Quote
Makhpella wrote:Can someone tell me what is Toad trying to say? I cant comprehend it. Should I sell my freighter full of plex or should I undock it?
btw: It is Charon with T2 cargohold expanders.
lol, Orbit Jita IV-4 until the value goes down to make the killmail less hilarious. |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
241
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 14:18:10 -
[243] - Quote
Makhpella wrote:Can someone tell me what is Toad trying to say? I cant comprehend it. Should I sell my freighter full of plex or should I undock it?
btw: It is Charon with T2 cargohold expanders. Autopilot it through Uedama 10 times a week.
|
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
264
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:32:45 -
[244] - Quote
Makhpella wrote:Can someone tell me what is Toad trying to say? I cant comprehend it. Should I sell my freighter full of plex or should I undock it?
btw: It is Charon with T2 cargohold expanders.
be careful with the contract, not to miss any zeros *wink* *wink* |
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
272
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 07:31:20 -
[245] - Quote
toad was right about them going down again |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 12:55:40 -
[246] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:toad was right about them going down again
Seems like his detractors have a Frog in their throat...
Sorry I had to |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
242
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 14:17:47 -
[247] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:toad was right about them going down again Now if only we can see them drop into the 700-750 range, then we'll be witnessing a quite historical event in the PLEX pricing history :P |
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
272
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 15:30:10 -
[248] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Jerry T Pepridge wrote:toad was right about them going down again Now if only we can see them drop into the 700-750 range, then we'll be witnessing a quite historical event in the PLEX pricing history :P
this thread blows me away :| kind of typifies the recent plex sale thingy.
Also on the ISboxer thing, i saw a dude in jita with ~50 abbadons shooting the statue, was an obs multiboxer.
i never realised how many ppl actually multibox using that thing untill i saw that.
that 1 guy alone, is 50 plex a month of demand gone. will we see less "plex sales" now? who knows....
thread belongs to toad tho, sorry for interupting your worship
*bows*
*nervously walks out* |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 16:03:13 -
[249] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Jerry T Pepridge wrote:toad was right about them going down again Now if only we can see them drop into the 700-750 range, then we'll be witnessing a quite historical event in the PLEX pricing history :P this thread blows me away :| kind of typifies the recent plex sale thingy. Also on the ISboxer thing, i saw a dude in jita with ~50 abbadons shooting the statue, was an obs multiboxer. i never realised how many ppl actually multibox using that thing untill i saw that. that 1 guy alone, is 50 plex a month of demand gone. will we see less "plex sales" now? who knows.... thread belongs to toad tho, sorry for interupting your worship *bows* *nervously walks out*
I like to think that the guy in the link has ventured onto the forums for the first time and is afraid of being rolled by the big boys. Or he has managed to allready have spent the ISKies by making a deal with nefarious back alley types only to see the value of PLEX drop and now he is short... And the people who loaned the money up front are calling |
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
274
|
Posted - 2015.01.01 07:09:28 -
[250] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Jerry T Pepridge wrote:toad was right about them going down again Now if only we can see them drop into the 700-750 range, then we'll be witnessing a quite historical event in the PLEX pricing history :P
buy orders in jita are 750 atm.
wowsers |
|
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
274
|
Posted - 2015.01.01 09:13:35 -
[251] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Jerry T Pepridge wrote:toad was right about them going down again Now if only we can see them drop into the 700-750 range, then we'll be witnessing a quite historical event in the PLEX pricing history :P buy orders in jita are 750 atm. wowsers
now at 788 / 773
|
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
182
|
Posted - 2015.01.01 10:32:38 -
[252] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Jerry T Pepridge wrote:toad was right about them going down again Now if only we can see them drop into the 700-750 range, then we'll be witnessing a quite historical event in the PLEX pricing history :P buy orders in jita are 750 atm. wowsers now at 788 / 773 Prices usually hit a high around Thursday/Friday...
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
2
|
Posted - 2015.01.01 12:54:52 -
[253] - Quote
Koniforous wrote:Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Jerry T Pepridge wrote:toad was right about them going down again Now if only we can see them drop into the 700-750 range, then we'll be witnessing a quite historical event in the PLEX pricing history :P buy orders in jita are 750 atm. wowsers now at 788 / 773 Prices usually hit a high around Thursday/Friday...
True or not it would appear as if someone or some group of people do not want the price to fall to 750. Every time Jita flirts with that they scoop up large market shares and relist higher. I am going to try and get some alt names later.
But this is not sustainable for long. There is too much plex on the market and not enough sensible buy orders. 100 plex is all that stands between current price and 750. Beyond 750 there is little floor. |
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
274
|
Posted - 2015.01.01 13:00:54 -
[254] - Quote
alt names?
why does that matter, w/e they are doing is working tbh, once the sale is over, variables change again.
hows the weather in murica mr madoff it actually made the news here that its snowing in las vegas o_O |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
2
|
Posted - 2015.01.01 13:06:59 -
[255] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:alt names?
why does that matter, w/e they are doing is working tbh, once the sale is over, variables change again.
hows the weather in murica mr madoff it actually made the news here that its snowing in las vegas o_O
Oh I don't really care all that much. Still waiting for Toady to come in raging about something. I don't even have any plex stocked right now, I sold it all to buy Melted Nano Ribbons (jk)
I don't think the sale ending will effect things much. There is a lot of activity on the character market and those are consuming a bit of plex atm. I would also guess that our player numbers are going to start to be noticeably smaller soon. Time will tell.
... Where Bernie Madoff is it is always 22c and sunny with a slight breeze when the cell door opens. |
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
278
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 06:22:49 -
[256] - Quote
CCP PLEX SALE IS OVER
PANIC GUYS! |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
243
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 10:54:13 -
[257] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:CCP PLEX SALE IS OVER
PANIC GUYS!
SELL SELL SELL! BUY BUY BUY!
Prices up over 800 million again. |
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
294
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 11:02:14 -
[258] - Quote
weird market this one, i stay away from it, far too many big boys in it, im only a tadpole, not a full fledge toad. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
7
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 12:08:02 -
[259] - Quote
Yeah I don't know if Toad was on to something or not. All of the rest of Eve the Plex seems to be headed down, but in Jita it seems to be fighting itself like someone I losing money to deliberately prop it up. I don't know, I think its too rich for my blood. I already have enough plex to fund until I am eligible for a retirement home. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3049
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 21:51:25 -
[260] - Quote
A big wildcard is the EULA change, the banning of multicasters. I figure that will cause 4 waves of PLEX demand reduction.
1) This is already over. Players who suspend most or all their accounts due to the change in the EULA.
2) Players who think they can get away with it. They will drop some or all accounts once CCP starts handing out bans. It is not clear if CCP has handed out any bans yet. There have been no posts about it happening.
3) Players who figure they can keep going with all their accounts, only to find they just turned a game into something more like work. Some will actually keep going, others will drop some or all of their accounts.
4) There use to be a continual influx of new players using multicasting, propping up PLEX demand. This will now cease.
I figure it will take a few months for all these effects to sort themselves out. But I'm not sure of the total magnitude they have on the PLEX price. It could be big, or it could get lost in the normal market variability.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
8
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 22:12:35 -
[261] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:A big wildcard is the EULA change, the banning of multicasters. I figure that will cause 4 waves of PLEX demand reduction.
1) This is already over. Players who suspend most or all their accounts due to the change in the EULA.
2) Players who think they can get away with it. They will drop some or all accounts once CCP starts handing out bans. It is not clear if CCP has handed out any bans yet. There have been no posts about it happening.
3) Players who figure they can keep going with all their accounts, only to find they just turned a game into something more like work. Some will actually keep going, others will drop some or all of their accounts.
4) There use to be a continual influx of new players using multicasting, propping up PLEX demand. This will now cease.
I figure it will take a few months for all these effects to sort themselves out. But I'm not sure of the total magnitude they have on the PLEX price. It could be big, or it could get lost in the normal market variability.
I agree with 2 through 4 wholeheartedly.
People will get banned as they think CCP won't notice or be able to tell. Also I see lots of false positive bans to this "round robin" method on other forums. I also see people giving up trying to make it work.
#4 especially, see www.eve-offline.net and check out the new character joins in the last 6 months. Other than the week of the expansion, the new character builds were up sharply after isboxer videos were made in the early summer. I know it was around much earlier, but popularity didn't start until this year. After the announcement to ban, new character builds drop (except during expansion week).
#1 I don't think we have seen yet. These guys had to plex their account one last time to sell on the forums and they probably used plex to make the transaction. We have yet to see all the characters sell, there is still a lot on the forums and some holding on until a later date (due to decreased SP/Isk currently).
But more than all of that, the population has been decreasing steadily since 2013 as Frog boy pointed out earlier. That is having a hard impact on demand. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
485
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 22:57:19 -
[262] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:#4 especially, see www.eve-offline.net and check out the new character joins in the last 6 months. Other than the week of the expansion, the new character builds were up sharply after isboxer videos were made in the early summer. I know it was around much earlier, but popularity didn't start until this year. After the announcement to ban, new character builds drop (except during expansion week).
What ISBoxer videos were those? OAre you sure the spikes in new characters weren't due to some of the big fights we've had, expansions or the "This is EVE" trailer?
The biggest spike in 2014 (~2014/01/30) is undoubtedly due to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodbath_of_B-R5RB
.
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
8
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 06:15:10 -
[263] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:#4 especially, see www.eve-offline.net and check out the new character joins in the last 6 months. Other than the week of the expansion, the new character builds were up sharply after isboxer videos were made in the early summer. I know it was around much earlier, but popularity didn't start until this year. After the announcement to ban, new character builds drop (except during expansion week). What ISBoxer videos were those? Are you sure the spikes in new characters weren't due to some of the big fights we've had, expansions or the "This is EVE" trailer? The biggest spike in 2014 (~2014/01/30) is undoubtedly due to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodbath_of_B-R5RB Vincent Athena wrote:4) There use to be a continual influx of new players using multicasting, propping up PLEX demand. This will now cease. It's pretty much a fact that people decided to start using multicasting software, but there were surely others who decided to stop. Just like with people playing EVE.
I think you are confusing player online number spikes and new player creation spikes. Please re-view the stats and understand the difference. A single fleet fight isn't going to give cause to new account creation. The expansions might, and I credit those. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
487
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 09:45:36 -
[264] - Quote
I'm not confusing anything, look for yourself. It's a widely known phenomenon that HUGE battles in EVE get quite of a bit media coverage outside of our own community which attracts LOTS of new players. B-R5RB has a Wikipedia article for globs sake . I'm pretty sure a dev commented on it while the jump changes were being discussed which is a likely factor for the creation of the "This is EVE" trailer which had a similar, albeit lesser, effect.
So show me these massively popular ISBoxer videos that caused a spike in new character creations, because I don't buy that for a second.
.
|
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
299
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 10:40:58 -
[265] - Quote
Plex price debates for dummies:
player 1 " how long is a piece of string " player 2 " about this long UP " player 3 " about this long DOWN " player 1 " I don't believe you " sperg ensues....
Meamwhile.....
CCP 1 " lets dunk plex, **** it why not, ahh 10% sale, sound good for a virtual item? " CCP 2 " heh why not, the xmas bonuses won't pay for themselves "
player 3 " I was right ..... " player 2 " no you weren't "
the comic book is available in all good book stores. |
Nemah Xadi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 11:24:35 -
[266] - Quote
Even something like the broadcasting ban only caused a temporary dip, and it didn't even go that far. It's slowly working its way back towards 1b again.
My accounts expire in 2 weeks so at least I won't be contributing.
Save Nemah!
|
Signal11th
1591
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 11:29:18 -
[267] - Quote
Nemah Xadi wrote:Even something like the broadcasting ban only caused a temporary dip, and it didn't even go that far. It's slowly working its way back towards 1b again.
My accounts expire in 2 weeks so at least I won't be contributing.
As it was always going to......You can't use plex then complain about always increasing prices. (not you personally just people in general)
God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
|
Nemah Xadi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 13:08:00 -
[268] - Quote
You can't? Really now? I had no idea...
Save Nemah!
|
Signal11th
1592
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 13:12:06 -
[269] - Quote
Nemah Xadi wrote:You can't? Really now? I had no idea...
Then why post saying your accounts are going to expire...it's like asking someone to kick you in the nads and then complaining when they do it.
Far as I'm concerned anyone who relies on PLEX to run their accounts just can't complain about the price.
God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
|
Nemah Xadi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 13:17:06 -
[270] - Quote
But I'm not relying on it anymore, I'm leaving, so that means I can complain about it... right?
Save Nemah!
|
|
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
299
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 13:40:27 -
[271] - Quote
Nemah Xadi wrote:But I'm not relying on it anymore, I'm leaving, so that means I can complain about it... right?
Doors that way ----->
wipe up your tears on the way out |
Nemah Xadi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 15:58:44 -
[272] - Quote
Thank you, I know very well where the door is. And I still have 2 weeks left and more complaining to do.
I hope that doesn't bother you.
Save Nemah!
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
686
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 17:04:44 -
[273] - Quote
Well, I'm glad that's all over. |
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
308
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 17:30:28 -
[274] - Quote
Nemah Xadi wrote:Thank you, I know very well where the door is. And I still have 2 weeks left and more complaining to do.
I hope that doesn't bother you.
not at all, please continue to sperg butthurt in forums. |
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
308
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 17:35:15 -
[275] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Well, I'm glad that's all over.
it's not over till the fat toad sings |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
489
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 18:10:13 -
[276] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:I'm not confusing anything, look for yourself. It's a widely known phenomenon that HUGE battles in EVE get quite of a bit media coverage outside of our own community which attracts LOTS of new players. B-R5RB has a Wikipedia article for globs sake . I'm pretty sure a dev commented on the phenomenon while the jump changes were being discussed which were likely a factor for the creation of the "This is EVE" trailer which had a similar, albeit lesser, effect. So show me these massively popular ISBoxer videos that caused a spike in new character creations, because I don't buy that for a second.
To follow up on this, here's what I would guess caused the player creation spikes in 2014.
http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility
The first and biggest around 2014-02-01 is undoubtedly B-R5RB. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodbath_of_B-R5RB
The next is on 2014-05-04 was likely Fanfest which was from the 1st to 3rd of May. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrKlYEsGvvw
Not sure about the one on 2014-05-25
The spike on 2014-07-2014 could be due to http://www.pcgamer.com/project-legion-first-look/
The last big one I can be bothered to find is 2014-11-23 and I'm going to guess it's thanks to "This is EVE". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdfFnTt2UT0
So unless there was a massively popular ISBoxing video released at the end of May I don't think that any of the spikes of new character creations were hundreds of people creating tens of alts in order to multibox.
.
|
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 18:30:32 -
[277] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote:I'm not confusing anything, look for yourself. It's a widely known phenomenon that HUGE battles in EVE get quite of a bit media coverage outside of our own community which attracts LOTS of new players. B-R5RB has a Wikipedia article for globs sake . I'm pretty sure a dev commented on the phenomenon while the jump changes were being discussed which were likely a factor for the creation of the "This is EVE" trailer which had a similar, albeit lesser, effect. So show me these massively popular ISBoxer videos that caused a spike in new character creations, because I don't buy that for a second. To follow up on this, here's what I would guess caused the player creation spikes in 2014. http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility The first and biggest around 2014-02-01 is undoubtedly B-R5RB. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodbath_of_B-R5RB The next is on 2014-05-04 was likely Fanfest which was from the 1st to 3rd of May. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrKlYEsGvvw Not sure about the one on 2014-05-25. The spike on 2014-07-2014 could be due to an article PC Gamer. http://www.pcgamer.com/project-legion-first-look/ The last big one I can be bothered to find is 2014-11-23 and I'm going to guess it's thanks to "This is EVE". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdfFnTt2UT0 So unless there was a massively popular ISBoxing video released at the end of May I don't think that any of the spikes of new character creations were hundreds of people creating tens of alts in order to multibox. I've also heard that people who joined due to big battles didn't stick around for long, so probably didn't consume or create many PLEX anyway.
I am surprised there wasn't anything big related to AT 12. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
8
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 18:52:20 -
[278] - Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVWC6I-FLEA
Honestly this would be #5 reason why long term plex pressure might (MIGHT) trend down.
Our average age of player is about 5 years older than when we started. Older people tend to be more secure in their careers, have more disposable income and have less time in their life to grind for isk. As a result I would expect an older population to seek long term real life methods for supplying account time instead of plex. |
N00B-SAIB0T
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 21:17:02 -
[279] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:weird market this one, i stay away from it, far too many big boys in it, im only a tadpole, not a full fledge toad.
I don't play with the PLEX market like I use to. It's become to volatile and swings sharply in a very short period of time. I limit my exposure to it to a certain number at any given time but that's it. Crazy. You can rack up some major losses if you overexpose yourself. |
Chris Winter
Winters Are Coming
590
|
Posted - 2015.01.07 00:50:25 -
[280] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Not sure about the one on 2014-05-25. That would be Humble Bundle day: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/eve-online-comes-to-the-humble-bundle/ |
|
Nemah Xadi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2015.01.07 03:35:46 -
[281] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Nemah Xadi wrote:Thank you, I know very well where the door is. And I still have 2 weeks left and more complaining to do.
I hope that doesn't bother you. not at all, please continue to sperg butthurt in forums.
You're completely sure about that, not even a little tiny bit?
The fact you refer to it as "sperg butthurt", and that you felt the need to post that, says otherwise, I would think...
Save Nemah!
|
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
246
|
Posted - 2015.01.16 13:01:47 -
[282] - Quote
*yawn*
Price seems to have stabilizied at summer peak prices. ATM, a price drop to 700 or even 750 seems completely unrealistic to me, let alone a price crash to 'dirt cheap PLEX' so many ppl were hoping for (and some even predicting it).
Even with the fall price spike and the major correction afterwards (most likely driven mostly by panic selling due to multibox-policy changes) it seems we are back at where we have always been with PLEX-price trend: an overall upward trend. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
703
|
Posted - 2015.01.16 13:17:57 -
[283] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Because PLEX are massively underpriced.
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
23
|
Posted - 2015.01.16 20:40:59 -
[284] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Because PLEX are massively underpriced.
No I can assure you it isn't. In fact I would be very careful in this market as the average trade volumes are far far below the average for its price. We are seeing Jita volumes around 2400 units when they should be 3000. So either supply fell perfectly with the drop in demand or something is about to happen to the market. |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.01.16 20:44:40 -
[285] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Because PLEX are massively underpriced. No I can assure you it isn't. In fact I would be very careful in this market as the average trade volumes are far far below the average for its price. We are seeing Jita volumes around 2400 units when they should be 3000. So either supply fell perfectly with the drop in demand or something is about to happen to the market.
I'm hoping your second possibility is what occurs. Should be fun to watch |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
24
|
Posted - 2015.01.25 13:22:41 -
[286] - Quote
OMG That stupid Toady guy was right!
Quote:The team is looking into removing buying PLEX directly and replacing it with buying AUR which can then be redeemed for a PLEX from the New Eden Store, reducing the current ISK/PLEX/AUR to simply ISK/AUR
From Day One of the CSM... no more buying Plex on the market, they want us to use AUR instead. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3107
|
Posted - 2015.02.02 19:40:57 -
[287] - Quote
I think they should go one step farther. Remove PLEX, period. You turn in AUR, you get game time. Also, allow players to trade AUR for ISK with each other. Then, instead of having PLEX price threads, we will have AUR price threads.
Other changes CCP would have to make for this to work:
AUR would have to go back to being a per pilot thing, not a per account thing. It would become another number in your wallet.
The market for exchanging ISK and AUR would have to be a special Eve wide market, not one limited to what station you are in. After all AUR is a number in your wallet, not an item. Such an eve wide market would be useful for other things, like a stock market (After all, stock is just a number in your wallet too.)
The disadvantage is: No more kills of frigates carrying 80 PLEX.
Now about the PLEX price: I noticed it dropping over the weekend. It seems odd it would be dropping. No PLEX sale, some extra demand due to FanFest, yet it is dropping. Are we entering a new era? Maybe the multi-cast ban rules are beginning to really bite? Or is it just a little glitch in the ever upward market?
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2015.02.02 19:57:33 -
[288] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:I think they should go one step farther. Remove PLEX, period. You turn in AUR, you get game time. Also, allow players to trade AUR for ISK with each other. Then, instead of having PLEX price threads, we will have AUR price threads.
Other changes CCP would have to make for this to work:
AUR would have to go back to being a per pilot thing, not a per account thing. It would become another number in your wallet.
The market for exchanging ISK and AUR would have to be a special Eve wide market, not one limited to what station you are in. After all AUR is a number in your wallet, not an item. Such an eve wide market would be useful for other things, like a stock market (After all, stock is just a number in your wallet too.)
The disadvantage is: No more kills of frigates carrying 80 PLEX.
Now about the PLEX price: I noticed it dropping over the weekend. It seems odd it would be dropping. No PLEX sale, some extra demand due to FanFest, yet it is dropping. Are we entering a new era? Maybe the multi-cast ban rules are beginning to really bite? Or is it just a little glitch in the ever upward market?
I saw a 10% off PLEX packs on the log in screen
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3109
|
Posted - 2015.02.02 22:26:12 -
[289] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote: I saw a 10% off PLEX packs on the log in screen
I bypass the launcher, so sometimes I miss these. When did it start?
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2015.02.02 23:38:33 -
[290] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote: I saw a 10% off PLEX packs on the log in screen
I bypass the launcher, so sometimes I miss these. When did it start?
Not sure. 1st noticed a couple days ago by accident.
|
|
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
194
|
Posted - 2015.02.02 23:54:07 -
[291] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote: I saw a 10% off PLEX packs on the log in screen
I bypass the launcher, so sometimes I miss these. When did it start? Not sure. 1st noticed a couple days ago by accident. Just a few days, my guess on its date was a week or so early :(
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
|
erg cz
Tribal Core
133
|
Posted - 2015.02.03 12:08:58 -
[292] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:I think they should go one step farther. Remove PLEX, period.
....
Now about the PLEX price: I noticed it dropping over the weekend. It seems odd it would be dropping. No PLEX sale, some extra demand due to FanFest, yet it is dropping. Are we entering a new era?
Smart traders sell PLEX before they become useless pixel item, due to AUR changes you mentioned.
|
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2015.02.03 15:07:44 -
[293] - Quote
erg cz wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:I think they should go one step farther. Remove PLEX, period.
....
Now about the PLEX price: I noticed it dropping over the weekend. It seems odd it would be dropping. No PLEX sale, some extra demand due to FanFest, yet it is dropping. Are we entering a new era? Smart traders sell PLEX before they become useless pixel item, due to AUR changes you mentioned.
How would they become useless? Even if they do the change to AUR, I do not see how PLEX will suddenly be unusable. Whatever is on the market will be burned off or they would have to convert PLEX to AUR. If they simple had PLEX go worthless, how many pissed of people would there be? Not to mention the currently ongoing PLEX sale.... |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
50
|
Posted - 2015.02.03 16:47:23 -
[294] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:erg cz wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:I think they should go one step farther. Remove PLEX, period.
....
Now about the PLEX price: I noticed it dropping over the weekend. It seems odd it would be dropping. No PLEX sale, some extra demand due to FanFest, yet it is dropping. Are we entering a new era? Smart traders sell PLEX before they become useless pixel item, due to AUR changes you mentioned. How would they become useless? Even if they do the change to AUR, I do not see how PLEX will suddenly be unusable. Whatever is on the market will be burned off or they would have to convert PLEX to AUR. If they simple had PLEX go worthless, how many pissed of people would there be? Not to mention the currently ongoing PLEX sale....
CCP is pushing to remove them from inside the game all together and have them on the NES only. They wouldn't be "worthless" just non-transferable through in game means. Instead you would use isk to buy AUR and AUR to buy Plex.
My take is they realize the massive stockpiling and market manipulation actually fosters a bot and rmt environment and want more direct control of plex time.
Edit: Going back and reading some of the posts of that nut job Toad... he seems a bit prophetic and kinda called this a long time ago. Probably lucky, but hats off to him. |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2015.02.03 17:57:41 -
[295] - Quote
I just don't see what going to AUR to get PLEX is really going to change other than pushing a currency no one cares about. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
51
|
Posted - 2015.02.03 18:07:48 -
[296] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:I just don't see what going to AUR to get PLEX is really going to change other than pushing a currency no one cares about.
Stop the stockpile and manipulation... allow for dynamic pricing controlled by CCP |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2015.02.03 18:36:06 -
[297] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:I just don't see what going to AUR to get PLEX is really going to change other than pushing a currency no one cares about. Stop the stockpile and manipulation... allow for dynamic pricing controlled by CCP
Couldn't you just stock pile AUR instead? Now that I think about it... Don't you currently get AUR by converting PLEX? |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
51
|
Posted - 2015.02.03 18:54:58 -
[298] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:I just don't see what going to AUR to get PLEX is really going to change other than pushing a currency no one cares about. Stop the stockpile and manipulation... allow for dynamic pricing controlled by CCP Couldn't you just stock pile AUR instead? Now that I think about it... Don't you currently get AUR by converting PLEX?
But if Plex = same amount of AUR, and AUR = same amount of RL $, then there can be no manipulation. Only between isk and AUR, but that would be pointless because you aren't buying Plex from players anymore.
Edit: really it depends on what CCP implements, but fact remains we will likely see big changes that will negatively effect the Isk per Plex amount. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3122
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 22:38:41 -
[299] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:erg cz wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:I think they should go one step farther. Remove PLEX, period.
....
Now about the PLEX price: I noticed it dropping over the weekend. It seems odd it would be dropping. No PLEX sale, some extra demand due to FanFest, yet it is dropping. Are we entering a new era? Smart traders sell PLEX before they become useless pixel item, due to AUR changes you mentioned. How would they become useless? Even if they do the change to AUR, I do not see how PLEX will suddenly be unusable. Whatever is on the market will be burned off or they would have to convert PLEX to AUR. If they simple had PLEX go worthless, how many pissed of people would there be? Not to mention the currently ongoing PLEX sale.... If they did my idea (no PLEX, buy game time with AUR directly for the NEX store) then one thing they would do is convert every existing PLEX to 3500 AUR. AUR would then become the thing people buy as a hedge against inflation, and all the PLEX price threads would be replaced with AUR price threads.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
51
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 23:40:11 -
[300] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:erg cz wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:I think they should go one step farther. Remove PLEX, period.
....
Now about the PLEX price: I noticed it dropping over the weekend. It seems odd it would be dropping. No PLEX sale, some extra demand due to FanFest, yet it is dropping. Are we entering a new era? Smart traders sell PLEX before they become useless pixel item, due to AUR changes you mentioned. How would they become useless? Even if they do the change to AUR, I do not see how PLEX will suddenly be unusable. Whatever is on the market will be burned off or they would have to convert PLEX to AUR. If they simple had PLEX go worthless, how many pissed of people would there be? Not to mention the currently ongoing PLEX sale.... If they did my idea (no PLEX, buy game time with AUR directly for the NEX store) then one thing they would do is convert every existing PLEX to 3500 AUR. AUR would then become the thing people buy as a hedge against inflation, and all the PLEX price threads would be replaced with AUR price threads.
Not really, because to most people AUR is worthless, it would only become worth something if it were tied to game time. |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5642
|
Posted - 2015.02.05 02:40:28 -
[301] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Not really, because to most people AUR is worthless, it would only become worth something if it were tied to game time.
You could populate a large percentile with the "Most people", but that does not mean the "FEW people" who have large stashes of money (guess who plays heavy PLEX markets games?) are intelligent enough to have been able to achieve those large stashes of money (duh!). This "intelligent enough" factor would also push them into studying what happens when you store egregious amounts of wealth inside a depreciable currency (ISK). I am not sure it's necessary for an economy to function, but "humanity" seem adamant into saving their efforts and wealth by looking for "stronghold assets" like noble metals in RL. How many EvE stronghold assets are there besides the ONE item that is worth a fixed, dependable amount of the highest value commodity of all: time? What'd be the second best, if the ONE item is removed? What can buy time then?
The answer is what investors will turn into. And then traders.
Also, if CCP has plans to ever cut the umbilical cord ISK <=> game time (be it through PLEX or AUR), they are better thinking 20 or 30 times before such decision is made.
Imagine unleashing the tremendous, unstoppable earthquake-tsunami ISK equivalent of all the PLEX existing in game, onto the relatively feeble "regular" EvE markets. Low tier minerals and ice markets could possibily carry on, but the others? You'd have untold amounts of liquidity flooding everything, novel "market makers" manipulating stuff with unprecedented power.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
|
erg cz
Tribal Core
134
|
Posted - 2015.02.05 09:37:50 -
[302] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote: If they simple had PLEX go worthless, how many pissed of people would there be?
As far as I understood you will be able to turn certain number of PLEXes into AUR (they look for balance atm). So only pissed players will be those speculators, who stock pile really high amount of PLEXes. They do not create intended game content and CCP see this as problem. In about 1,5 year ago CCP got real money for 2 PLEXes for each destroyed item, worth 1bilion ISK. Cause PLEX was like 500 milions. Not long ago it jumped to 1 bilion, so players need to sell only one PLEX - real money for CCP was cutted to 50 %. It seems to be market manipulation and now CCP fires back, killing speculators. |
Alex Grison
Grison Industrial Group
912
|
Posted - 2015.02.06 23:40:13 -
[303] - Quote
CCP wants em nice and low. But it no workey.
yes
|
erg cz
Tribal Core
141
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 11:58:37 -
[304] - Quote
Alex Grison wrote:CCP wants em nice and low. But it no workey.
Well, it does workey, though not that quick. PLEX price still dropping: http://www.eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=29668#history |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
204
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 18:57:03 -
[305] - Quote
They usually drop after an update, and return or spike a couple weeks later.
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3165
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 19:33:18 -
[306] - Quote
erg cz wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:I think they should go one step farther. Remove PLEX, period.
....
Now about the PLEX price: I noticed it dropping over the weekend. It seems odd it would be dropping. No PLEX sale, some extra demand due to FanFest, yet it is dropping. Are we entering a new era? Smart traders sell PLEX before they become useless pixel item, due to AUR changes you mentioned. If CCP were to remove PLEX, and use AUR for buying game time, I'm sure they would also replace every PLEX in the game with 3500 AUR. PLEX would never be a worthless pixel item, they would just go away, and your inflation hedge would become AUR.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
107
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 19:34:34 -
[307] - Quote
Koniforous wrote:They usually drop after an update, and return or spike a couple weeks later.
lol no they dont, they usually spike at the same time as an expansion due to returning players and players hording them to hedge against other assets reducing in value.
The price has been falling for a while. Faster until the holidays, and slowly now.
This is probably the effect of loss of population in the game. It looks like we are down about 1% each month since Christmas. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
107
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 19:36:37 -
[308] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:erg cz wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:I think they should go one step farther. Remove PLEX, period.
....
Now about the PLEX price: I noticed it dropping over the weekend. It seems odd it would be dropping. No PLEX sale, some extra demand due to FanFest, yet it is dropping. Are we entering a new era? Smart traders sell PLEX before they become useless pixel item, due to AUR changes you mentioned. If CCP were to remove PLEX, and use AUR for buying game time, I'm sure they would also replace every PLEX in the game with 3500 AUR. PLEX would never be a worthless pixel item, they would just go away, and your inflation hedge would become AUR.
But AUR has no inherent value in game. The move to AUR removes PLEX as a place to store ISK, instead it would be a place to store AUR which would have it's own conversion to ISK based on what players would pay.
So in essence, Plex would get competition from AUR if one could use AUR for game services too. Just moves Plex out of in game markets and on to an out of game market where it belongs. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3165
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 19:45:23 -
[309] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:erg cz wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:I think they should go one step farther. Remove PLEX, period.
....
Now about the PLEX price: I noticed it dropping over the weekend. It seems odd it would be dropping. No PLEX sale, some extra demand due to FanFest, yet it is dropping. Are we entering a new era? Smart traders sell PLEX before they become useless pixel item, due to AUR changes you mentioned. If CCP were to remove PLEX, and use AUR for buying game time, I'm sure they would also replace every PLEX in the game with 3500 AUR. PLEX would never be a worthless pixel item, they would just go away, and your inflation hedge would become AUR. But AUR has no inherent value in game. The move to AUR removes PLEX as a place to store ISK, instead it would be a place to store AUR which would have it's own conversion to ISK based on what players would pay. So in essence, Plex would get competition from AUR if one could use AUR for game services too. Just moves Plex out of in game markets and on to an out of game market where it belongs. Right, so they would have to give AUR value. Remove PLEX, replace all of them with AUR, then sell game time for AUR. The rate would be 3 days for 350 AUR. They CCP would also need to introduce a market allowing players to trade AUR for ISK with each other.
In the end, we would have the same situation as we do now: You can get AUR for real money and then sell for ISK, or you can use ISK to buy AUR form another player, then turn it in for game time.
The big difference: We eliminate a redundant currency: PLEX. AUR and ISK are all we really need to make the current EVE economy work.
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Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 20:06:27 -
[310] - Quote
Isn't the only way to get AUR is by converting PLEX? |
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
107
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 20:56:53 -
[311] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Isn't the only way to get AUR is by converting PLEX?
Everything will change if CCP gets their way |
erg cz
Tribal Core
141
|
Posted - 2015.02.25 09:38:51 -
[312] - Quote
Koniforous wrote:They usually drop after an update, and return or spike a couple weeks later.
Did you actually checked the link I posted? PLEX value drops over last 90 days and keep going that way. No real spikes.
Vincent Athena wrote: I'm sure they would also replace every PLEX in the game with 3500 AUR.
I am not so sure about "every PLEX". Quota for conversion can be big, yes, but it is still qouta. Even if CCP will agree to allow you convert 100 PLEX as of now, there still be ppl with larger PLEX count. And quota is still under concideration. It can be even lower to make more PLEX speculators rage quit. |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
205
|
Posted - 2015.02.25 13:48:05 -
[313] - Quote
erg cz wrote:Koniforous wrote:They usually drop after an update, and return or spike a couple weeks later. Did you actually checked the link I posted? PLEX value drops over last 90 days and keep going that way. No real spikes. I did not check your link. I have made the majority of my wealth from plex flipping, including riding the waves the follow a patch, and I have my own personal experience and wallet to prove my statement for me, I'm not really interested if you disagree with me or mot because I know my investment practices in plex and plex behavior have proven correct. Prices are high before a patch (when I sell to have the liquid needed for...), quickly plummet a few weeks after a patch (when I buy), supply is choked and briefly prices spike (when I sell), and then normalize to just before patch prices and continue on with their downward trend.
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
109
|
Posted - 2015.02.25 16:17:28 -
[314] - Quote
Koniforous wrote:erg cz wrote:Koniforous wrote:They usually drop after an update, and return or spike a couple weeks later. Did you actually checked the link I posted? PLEX value drops over last 90 days and keep going that way. No real spikes. I did not check your link. I have made the majority of my wealth from plex flipping, including riding the waves the follow a patch, and I have my own personal experience and wallet to prove my statement for me, I'm not really interested if you disagree with me or mot because I know my investment practices in plex and plex behavior have proven correct. Prices are high before a patch (when I sell to have the liquid needed for...), quickly plummet a few weeks after a patch (when I buy), supply is choked and briefly prices spike (when I sell), and then normalize to just before patch prices and continue on with their downward trend.
You can say that all you want to, but evidence from API is to the contrary. Other than the summer slow rise there has been negative pressure on plex for a year. No spikes, no dips from patches. Historically before that there are spikes AT patch dates and after from returning players, but not before and certainly no crashes after a patch. |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
205
|
Posted - 2015.02.25 18:12:29 -
[315] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Koniforous wrote:erg cz wrote:Koniforous wrote:They usually drop after an update, and return or spike a couple weeks later. Did you actually checked the link I posted? PLEX value drops over last 90 days and keep going that way. No real spikes. I did not check your link. I have made the majority of my wealth from plex flipping, including riding the waves the follow a patch, and I have my own personal experience and wallet to prove my statement for me, I'm not really interested if you disagree with me or mot because I know my investment practices in plex and plex behavior have proven correct. Prices are high before a patch (when I sell to have the liquid needed for...), quickly plummet a few weeks after a patch (when I buy), supply is choked and briefly prices spike (when I sell), and then normalize to just before patch prices and continue on with their downward trend. You can say that all you want to, but evidence from API is to the contrary. Other than the summer slow rise there has been negative pressure on plex for a year. No spikes, no dips from patches. Historically before that there are spikes AT patch dates and after from returning players, but not before and certainly no crashes after a patch. I must have found a market leprechaun then, turning what a graph says should be losses into billions of profit. This can only mean one thing: Half life 3 confirmed!
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3168
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 04:44:44 -
[316] - Quote
erg cz wrote:Koniforous wrote:They usually drop after an update, and return or spike a couple weeks later. Did you actually checked the link I posted? PLEX value drops over last 90 days and keep going that way. No real spikes. Vincent Athena wrote: I'm sure they would also replace every PLEX in the game with 3500 AUR. I am not so sure about "every PLEX". Quota for conversion can be big, yes, but it is still qouta. Even if CCP will agree to allow you convert 100 PLEX as of now, there still be ppl with larger PLEX count. And quota is still under concideration. It can be even lower to make more PLEX speculators rage quit. No quota. Every PLEX. CCP would do nothing less.
At one time, after PLEX but before AURUM and the NEX store, people were talking about "mili-PLEX" a way to divide up the PLEX to allow for purchase of items from the NEX store that are worth less than one PLEX. We did not get mili-PLEX, we got AUR. But it serves the same purpose.
Having a "quota" would be like replacing $1000 bills with $20 bills, but only for the first 100 bills. It would just not be acceptable.
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Frozen fanfiction
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erg cz
Tribal Core
141
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 08:22:15 -
[317] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:
Having a "quota" would be like replacing $1000 bills with $1000 bills, but only for the first 100 bills.
Fixed that for you.
Vincent Athena wrote: It would just not be acceptable.
by any PLEX speculator. Thats right. But for ordinary PLEX producers / users like me it would be absolutely OK. Cause I rearely have more than 5 PLEX in my posession. PLEX speculators do not create any usefull game content but rather abuse feature, that was intended solely for quick ISK injection / possibility to play for free. So there will be no surprise if CCP decides to get rid of those via PLEX conversion quota? PLEX speculators rage quite, game economy stabilize, CCP will get 20 euro for one replaced megatrone navy issue instead of 10 as it was around new year. |
Luthias Austrene
Drone Orphanage Ethical Carnage
14
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 13:28:47 -
[318] - Quote
EDIT: wrong thread |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 15:33:51 -
[319] - Quote
The only way to stop PLEX speculation is to peg it to a specific isk value, say 500 million isk. No matter what region you are in PLEX is the same value on the market |
erg cz
Tribal Core
141
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 16:08:09 -
[320] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:The only way to stop PLEX speculation is to peg it to a specific isk value, say 500 million isk. No matter what region you are in PLEX is the same value on the market
I think it would open door for black market and RMT. Since PLEX is not generated but injected into the game by players. |
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3188
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 03:20:05 -
[321] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:The only way to stop PLEX speculation is to peg it to a specific isk value, say 500 million isk. No matter what region you are in PLEX is the same value on the market People would just not use the market. They would trade via contracts, or directly by trading with each other in a station, or via a third party.
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Frozen fanfiction
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5653
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 22:55:00 -
[322] - Quote
erg cz wrote:PLEX speculators do not create any usefull game content but rather abuse feature, that was intended solely for quick ISK injection / possibility to play for free. So there will be no surprise if CCP decides to get rid of those via PLEX conversion quota? PLEX speculators rage quite, game economy stabilize, CCP will get 20 euro for one replaced megatrone navy issue instead of 10 as it was around new year.
How curious seeing people deciding in a sandbox game what's useful, what's "intended solely for" and so on.
I have read long threads with dumbs declaring miners useless, others declaring L4 missioneers a "cancer for EvE economy" and much more.
EvE is bigger than this. In EvE people create content, even content you find useless. In EvE unconsensual gameplay is not only allowed, but encouraged. PLEX speculators create content you don't like... feel free to stay out of it!
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5653
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 22:56:55 -
[323] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:The only way to stop PLEX speculation is to peg it to a specific isk value, say 500 million isk. No matter what region you are in PLEX is the same value on the market
We have enough economy rigging in RL.
Let's allow a true, capitalistic economy exist, at least in a fictional game, shall we?
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
|
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 00:14:01 -
[324] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:The only way to stop PLEX speculation is to peg it to a specific isk value, say 500 million isk. No matter what region you are in PLEX is the same value on the market We have enough economy rigging in RL. Let's allow a true, capitalistic economy exist, at least in a fictional game, shall we?
The claim was made that CCP was looking at ending it and changing buying PLEX directly with AUR. I was stating that I do not* understand how they expect to eliminate speculation without a forced market price peg. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
110
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 00:38:41 -
[325] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:The only way to stop PLEX speculation is to peg it to a specific isk value, say 500 million isk. No matter what region you are in PLEX is the same value on the market We have enough economy rigging in RL. Let's allow a true, capitalistic economy exist, at least in a fictional game, shall we? The claim was made that CCP was looking at ending it and changing buying PLEX directly with AUR. I was stating that I do not* understand how they expect to eliminate speculation without a forced market price peg.
Plex has many uses right now. One of which is the direct storage of Isk. Anyone can store plex and play trading games and the worst they have to risk in their mind is less isk, or using it for a month's game time.
Take plex off the in game market and the station games end. Make plex's only use directly applying game time. Now plex can only be converted to AUR, which can then be used for various things. This provides a buffer to Plex, but also makes it far more risky to horde Plex because getting stuck with a lot of AUR would not have the same benefits of being stuck with a bunch of Isk. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5653
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 09:15:46 -
[326] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Take plex off the in game market and the station games end. Make plex's only use directly applying game time. Now plex can only be converted to AUR, which can then be used for various things. This provides a buffer to Plex, but also makes it far more risky to horde Plex because getting stuck with a lot of AUR would not have the same benefits of being stuck with a bunch of Isk.
I hope CCP won't do this thing because it'd be a terrible move that could have vast negative effects on the whole EvE economy.
PLEX does 4 fundamental things:
- Provides a muitiple pronged attack vehicle against RMTers.
- Greatly helps at preserving the only defense that a 12 year old MMO has against its economy implosion: wallets segregation.
- Acts as "liquidity sponge" that preserves the other markets against a massive flood of ISK that would make them unpracticable, and perma-manipulated against new players.
- Gives a players niche an "end game" where to PvP, PLEXes are capital ISK ships.
This has become even more relevant after CCP nerfed Technetium, the former "end game flag ship".
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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erg cz
Tribal Core
143
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 11:40:12 -
[327] - Quote
There is 12 sell orders in Jita with price under 800 milions atm. And median price keep falling even quicker. PLEX price is droping, several months in a raw already, despite all smart talks about "economy implosion". Simply because PLEX is bound to real money. It is not some virtual pixel item, it is a bit more, than part of Eve economy. CCP loses money on high PLEX price and they want their money back. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5654
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 16:34:59 -
[328] - Quote
erg cz wrote:There is 12 sell orders in Jita with price under 800 milions atm. And median price keep falling even quicker. PLEX price is droping, several months in a raw already, despite all smart talks about "economy implosion". Simply because PLEX is bound to real money. It is not some virtual pixel item, it is a bit more, than part of Eve economy. CCP loses money on high PLEX price and they want their money back.
You don't seem to have an idea about what "economy implosion" is.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
|
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 17:20:43 -
[329] - Quote
erg cz wrote:There is 12 sell orders in Jita with price under 800 milions atm. And median price keep falling even quicker. PLEX price is droping, several months in a raw already, despite all smart talks about "economy implosion". Simply because PLEX is bound to real money. It is not some virtual pixel item, it is a bit more, than part of Eve economy. CCP loses money on high PLEX price and they want their money back.
How much is CCP losing? I'd guess that your argument is that because PLEX nets you ~800 m isk that people are buying less because the PLEX is getting them more than when PLEX bought 500 m isk. I would argue that because PLEX gets more isk, it incentivized people to buy it with real money because it gives them more isk. Unless the $ price for PLEX has changed, the real world money is now buying more. The question would then be at what level is there "equilibrium"? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5654
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 08:11:52 -
[330] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:The question would then be at what level is there "equilibrium"?
That's a process called: "price discovery". Markets equilibrium is ever changing, current equilibrium is called: "price".
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
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|
Hellois Dawn
The Outlet
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 11:12:50 -
[331] - Quote
I bought my first plex for 319 million isk and i know people who bought 90 days for 180 million |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
110
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 12:09:46 -
[332] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:erg cz wrote:There is 12 sell orders in Jita with price under 800 milions atm. And median price keep falling even quicker. PLEX price is droping, several months in a raw already, despite all smart talks about "economy implosion". Simply because PLEX is bound to real money. It is not some virtual pixel item, it is a bit more, than part of Eve economy. CCP loses money on high PLEX price and they want their money back. How much is CCP losing? I'd guess that your argument is that because PLEX nets you ~800 m isk that people are buying less because the PLEX is getting them more than when PLEX bought 500 m isk. I would argue that because PLEX gets more isk, it incentivized people to buy it with real money because it gives them more isk. Unless the $ price for PLEX has changed, the real world money is now buying more. The question would then be at what level is there "equilibrium"?
I would argue that PLEX bought does not = profit for CCP until it is utilized. Remember they are a Corporation that has to follow accounting standards and practices.
When PLEX is high, people unsub alts, it is that simple. The need for isk exists whether PLEX is high or not, people who buy isk are going to do it anyways. The real pressure on PLEX is number of accounts using it and number of stored or "invested" Plex.
If you get rid of Plex-Isk direct storage, the price drops, then more accounts re-sub, then CCP gets more money. |
hey friends
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 13:29:19 -
[333] - Quote
[/quote]
I would argue that PLEX bought does not = profit for CCP until it is utilized. Remember they are a Corporation that has to follow accounting standards and practices.
[/quote]
not sure if youre trolling or what
but by that logic lets say i sell sodapop irl you buy one but i dont profit until you open it and drink it |
Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd Nulli Secunda
352
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 14:00:04 -
[334] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:When PLEX is high, people unsub alts, it is that simple.
Market McSelling Alt wrote:If you get rid of Plex-Isk direct storage, the price drops, then more accounts re-sub, then CCP gets more money. So your claim is, that people will unsub alts, if they can't afford to buy game time with ISK and will re-sub, when PLEX prices are low enough that their ISK is enough to buy them game-time again. Roger that.
But what I don't understand is, how you believe that CCP's (real life) cashflow is affected by people who can't be arsed to give (real life) money to CCP anyway.
CCP gets cash from people who are willing to give real currency money to CCP and buy PLEX. And probably most of the PLEX bought from CCP with real life money are sold to other players for ISK via the ingame markets. Prices are solely driven by demand and supply. People who will unsub because of high PLEX prices will lower demand a bit, which has the potential to lower prices a bit. But that's it. CCP will neither get more or less money because of that.
J'Poll:
EVE doesn't hand out cookies to you.
EVE kicks you down, steals your cookie and then laughs at you for bringing a cookie in the first place.
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
111
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 15:15:21 -
[335] - Quote
Myriad Blaze wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:When PLEX is high, people unsub alts, it is that simple. Market McSelling Alt wrote:If you get rid of Plex-Isk direct storage, the price drops, then more accounts re-sub, then CCP gets more money. So your claim is, that people will unsub alts, if they can't afford to buy game time with ISK and will re-sub, when PLEX prices are low enough that their ISK is enough to buy them game-time again. Roger that. But what I don't understand is, how you believe that CCP's (real life) cashflow is affected by people who can't be arsed to give (real life) money to CCP anyway. CCP gets cash from people who are willing to give real currency money to CCP and buy PLEX. And probably most of the PLEX bought from CCP with real life money are sold to other players for ISK via the ingame markets. Prices are solely driven by demand and supply. People who will unsub because of high PLEX prices will lower demand a bit, which has the potential to lower prices a bit. But that's it. CCP will neither get more or less money because of that.
Because the volume of PLEX rarely moves much. The same amount is being bought from CCP and put on the market every day. The real change has been price. Sure there have been some spikes and dips, but the real kicker is the price has increased over time with little change in volume.
So the only real change is when PLEX = High, investors unload stock (AKA CCP not involved) When price = Low, investors stock up (same amount bought from CCP, but liability increases as game time owed)
CCP has pretty steady sales of Plex, their income however fluctuates based on how many are used. They already stated year over year that stockpiles of PLEX are alarming, and concerning. Their move off the market means the Liability of Plex is not the hedge fund of players, instead we stock AUR which CCP doesn't have to show on their books as game time owed. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
111
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 15:16:50 -
[336] - Quote
hey friends wrote:Quote:
I would argue that PLEX bought does not = profit for CCP until it is utilized. Remember they are a Corporation that has to follow accounting standards and practices.
not sure if youre trolling or what but by that logic lets say i sell sodapop irl you buy one but i dont profit until you open it and drink it
You are bad at accounting. When I buy a sodapop you have fulfilled your obligation. Think of PLEX like a giftcard or a prepaid credit card... now apply your wrong logic. |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
209
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 18:19:03 -
[337] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:hey friends wrote:Quote:
I would argue that PLEX bought does not = profit for CCP until it is utilized. Remember they are a Corporation that has to follow accounting standards and practices.
not sure if youre trolling or what but by that logic lets say i sell sodapop irl you buy one but i dont profit until you open it and drink it You are bad at accounting. When I buy a sodapop you have fulfilled your obligation. Think of PLEX like a giftcard or a prepaid credit card... now apply your wrong logic. This is exactly why I support the selling of skill remaps for plex. Anything that destroys a plex without redeeming game time is the same as ccp lending money to someone and then that someone says its ok nevermind you can just keep the money, and that will be good for ccp, and more money in their wallet means more development And improvements on eve.
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
|
hey friends
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 19:02:21 -
[338] - Quote
oh my to quote george takei
once someone buys a plex with cash from ccp/vendor ccp has the money end of story
they could care less if you blow it up ,wipe your tears with it or use it for game time
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Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd Nulli Secunda
352
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 19:42:36 -
[339] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:CCP has pretty steady sales of Plex, their income however fluctuates based on how many are used. They already stated year over year that stockpiles of PLEX are alarming, and concerning. Their move off the market means the Liability of Plex is not the hedge fund of players, instead we stock AUR which CCP doesn't have to show on their books as game time owed. Ok, I see where you're coming from. However, I think you don't consider some aspects that I would deem important.
What you describe is only an accounting problem. You could also say it's purely cosmetic. CCP already has the money and will keep it. There is no way players can give their PLEX back to CCP and force them to pay real money for it.
Furthermore people with stockpiles of PLEX might stop playing without touching their PLEX. Or they might get banned and get their PLEX confiscated by CCP (I think it's not unreasonable to believe that CCP confiscated a significant number of PLEX when they banned Somer). In these cases it's money for nothing for CCP. They get money but never have to provide any services. And if at one day in the (hopefully) far future CCP decides to shut EVE down, all the stockpiled PLEX will be worthless (more money for nothing for CCP).
J'Poll:
EVE doesn't hand out cookies to you.
EVE kicks you down, steals your cookie and then laughs at you for bringing a cookie in the first place.
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
112
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 21:09:46 -
[340] - Quote
hey friends wrote:oh my to quote george takei
once someone buys a plex with cash from ccp/vendor ccp has the money end of story
they could care less if you blow it up ,wipe your tears with it or use it for game time
Too bad they live in the real world and there is a difference between cash accounting and accrual accounting... and CCP is in Iceland so they can't follow the Enron form of accounting.
Just stop and let the big boys talk this one out. |
|
hey friends
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 21:19:51 -
[341] - Quote
how do you measure how big anyone is? im guessing you consider yourself to be a big boy? lots of isk? ive got about 700b i know its not a whole lot but surely id get a seat at the kiddie table |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
112
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 22:06:19 -
[342] - Quote
hey friends wrote:how do you measure how big anyone is? im guessing you consider yourself to be a big boy? lots of isk? ive got about 700b i know its not a whole lot but surely id get a seat at the kiddie table
Having isk, or stuff or being physically gifted matters not in a discussion about virtual gift cards and the accounting practices of them.
If you were to make a statement about what you will put your isk into once Plex goes to the AUR market and you cannot directly trade them for isk, then perhaps someone would listen. But making the neanderthal-like claim that money is yours once it hits your wallet (even if it is more like a deposit for services rendered) puts you squarely at the plastic spoon and square colorful plate table. |
Anthar Thebess
958
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 14:27:15 -
[343] - Quote
Current plex holders keeping prices up. I know people that have around 4 thousand of plexes they want to sell now. Of course they will not allow for price to drop below the line they bought it in first place , so they are slowly reducing their stock , while keeping price up . There are many more players doing the same thing. Plex prices will slowly move to normal within a year.
Unless CCP add some new stuff that will drive the price up again.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
|
Noonian Enaka
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 15:27:26 -
[344] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Current plex holders keeping prices up. I know people that have around 4 thousand of plexes they want to sell now.
That is a LOT of bound capital. I am not sure if that amount of capital and it`s associated speculation is healthy for the game economy
I was always under the impression, that there is way too much ISK influx past and present. It`s understandable that peolpe are looking for a hedge to put all that ISK in...but wow...at 750 million per Plex we are talking about 3million millions
Thats enough to **** over any economy. The more I think about it the more I think it would be good if plex would crash overnight down to the 200ish million mark or lower like it used to be. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
117
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 15:56:04 -
[345] - Quote
Noonian Enaka wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Current plex holders keeping prices up. I know people that have around 4 thousand of plexes they want to sell now.
That is a LOT of bound capital. I am not sure if that amount of capital and it`s associated speculation is healthy for the game economy I was always under the impression, that there is way too much ISK influx past and present. It`s understandable that peolpe are looking for a hedge to put all that ISK in...but wow...at 750 million per Plex we are talking about 3million millions Thats enough to **** over any economy. The more I think about it the more I think it would be good if plex would crash overnight down to the 200ish million mark or lower like it used to be.
In 2013 CCP said they had over 10,000 Plex sitting in holding accounts from confiscated banned characters. CCP also admitted that most of the Plex sold on market ends up sitting unused in character hangers.
I think they have some very valid reasons for taking Plex out of the game and into the AUR market. Many sad speculators when this happens. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
519
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 17:00:49 -
[346] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: I think they have some very valid reasons for taking Plex out of the game and into the AUR market. Many sad speculators when this happens.
You do realize that you can already convert PLEX to AUR, right? So the only difference would be that the material item PLEX is removed, so sure none will get blown up, but otherwise everything is exactly the same. Unless they don't make AUR tradable, which would be silly. Stop saying silly things please.
.
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
117
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 21:01:25 -
[347] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: I think they have some very valid reasons for taking Plex out of the game and into the AUR market. Many sad speculators when this happens.
You do realize that you can already convert PLEX to AUR, right? So the only difference would be that the material item PLEX is removed, so sure none will get blown up, but otherwise everything is exactly the same. Unless they don't make AUR tradable, which would be silly. Stop saying silly things please.
You do realize that removing Plex from the market changes everything. You think Plex will remain a Isk haven when you have to battle both the fluctuating isk prices to AUR and the AUR to Plex market? You think people will store them on their accounts instead of in hangers?
I rather think not, and not being able to trade the margins on the market means less plex upward pressure. It is really not hard to see this. |
erg cz
Tribal Core
145
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 09:24:21 -
[348] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Current plex holders keeping prices up. I know people that have around 4 thousand of plexes they want to sell now. Of course they will not allow for price to drop below the line they bought it in first place , so they are slowly reducing their stock , while keeping price up .
And I believe that is the exact reason why there will be some quota, how many PLEXes can be converted into AUR.
If you check the chart with 111 days of PLEX price (http://www.eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=29668#history), you will see not only that it keeps loosing its price, but that there are also jumps in sell volume from 1,5 milions to 4,5 milions and back again. Clear manipulations in desparate attempt to save "investments". |
Noonian Enaka
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 09:59:46 -
[349] - Quote
erg cz wrote:[quote=Anthar Thebess] If you check the chart with 111 days of PLEX price (http://www.eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=29668#history), you will see not only that it keeps loosing its price, but that there are also jumps in sell volume from 1,5 milions to 4,5 milions and back again. Clear manipulations in desparate attempt to save "investments".
This. It`s what I noticed as well, and it`s not a market I am invested at all. I am just too space poor after a 6 year break to even think about flipping PLEX for Profit.
A quota for conversion would be a possibility, however thats a thin line to tread. If the quota is too low it could lead to mass cancellation. On the other hand people with 4.000+ PLEX in their hands should hopefully be smart enough to have other considerable assets and it shouldn`t really affect them. Even if trillions are lost due to PLEX conversion I would wager the heavy PLEX speculators are the big EVE multi-trillionaires and losing a trillion or two while harsh at first look, shouldnt effect their ability to play or be engaged in large scale markt activites at all. I think there would be more then enough wealth left on those individuals to still screw markets over several times.
The question is, does CCP want to open the can of worms of basically disposessing a "financially powerful" segment of the playerbase from a lot of their wealth for "the good of the game"? It`s an interesting RL analogy. Humongous amounts of wealth concentrated in a few hands with all the potential drawbacks that entails.
We do live in interesting times indeed. I`m eager to see how this all pans out. |
Anthar Thebess
959
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 12:22:42 -
[350] - Quote
Look what is happening when plex will fall below 800mil, instantly it is being pulled up. I still wonder why CCP will not make some big sale after sale. High plex prices are bad for eve. People usually use plex to subscribe alt accounts - i know people who where having 4 alt accounts active when plex was around 400mil , and now have just one , and constantly complain how high plex price is now.
They used up more PLEX'es per month and paid more in term of isk. But probably i don't see all data , and my assumption is bad.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
|
|
erg cz
Tribal Core
145
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 13:25:39 -
[351] - Quote
Noonian Enaka wrote: If the quota is too low it could lead to mass cancellation.
This volume picture (jump 4,5 milions Plexes one day and holding, jump back to1,5 milion and holding level again) clearely points out, that PLEX speculations is not done by group. Most likely it is one player... or two players, who can cooperate really well. Even if those one, two, even ten speculaters rage quit, game will not lose anything, IMHO. |
Anthar Thebess
960
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 13:43:34 -
[352] - Quote
X ATM usually have quite big stock of plexes. Could be one of the people.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
|
Noonian Enaka
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 13:59:58 -
[353] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:X ATM usually have quite big stock of plexes. Could be one of the people.
One of those many times I think it is sad that you can not really out down short positions like in the real market. Profit from falling prices! Oh the tears that could be harvested from that. |
Null Infinity
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 08:28:50 -
[354] - Quote
erg cz wrote:Noonian Enaka wrote: If the quota is too low it could lead to mass cancellation. This volume picture (jump 4,5 milions Plexes one day and holding, jump back to1,5 milion and holding level again) clearely points out, that PLEX speculations is not done by group. Most likely it is one player... or two players, who can cooperate really well. Even if those one, two, even ten speculaters rage quit, game will not lose anything, IMHO.
Kind of sucks to know, that the world econy is in the hand of one or two man, who can do with PLEX whatever they want to do. Right now they are happy with 800 milions, tommorrow it will be 900 if they decide to. And you can not do anything about this... |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 16:43:01 -
[355] - Quote
Null Infinity wrote:erg cz wrote:Noonian Enaka wrote: If the quota is too low it could lead to mass cancellation. This volume picture (jump 4,5 milions Plexes one day and holding, jump back to1,5 milion and holding level again) clearely points out, that PLEX speculations is not done by group. Most likely it is one player... or two players, who can cooperate really well. Even if those one, two, even ten speculaters rage quit, game will not lose anything, IMHO. Kind of sucks to know, that the world econy is in the hand of one or two man, who can do with PLEX whatever they want to do. Right now they are happy with 800 milions, tommorrow it will be 900 if they decide to. And you can not do anything about this...
You could simply not buy PLEX |
Null Infinity
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 08:12:09 -
[356] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:
You could simply not buy PLEX
But what if I want to sell it? I saw it was like 1 billion per 1 piece not long ago. Now that PLEX holding dude decide to keep it on 800 milions. I really start to think, that the idea with plex converting quota is not that bad after all...
As someone here pointed out PLEX is now one of the key comodite for the whole EVE economy. And if one or two person hold this key, it is not free market any more. |
erg cz
Tribal Core
180
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 09:40:42 -
[357] - Quote
erg cz wrote:
This volume picture (jump 4,5 milions Plexes one day and holding, jump back to1,5 milion and holding level again)
Few days ago volume jumped from 1,8 milions to 700 - 800 thousands and holding again... Something is going to happen...
|
Null Infinity
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 09:03:44 -
[358] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Look what is happening when plex will fall below 800mil, instantly it is being pulled up.
So now someone seems to decide to push the price over 800. Few dozens of buy orders in JIta just below 800 milions ISK (as we can see last few days) will not let PLEX sell prices fall under 800 milions anymore
New mining menthods: interactive mining
and comet mining
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Shakuul
Infinitus Sapientia
3
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 18:55:55 -
[359] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Current plex holders keeping prices up. I know people that have around 4 thousand of plexes they want to sell now. Of course they will not allow for price to drop below the line they bought it in first place , so they are slowly reducing their stock , while keeping price up . There are many more players doing the same thing. Plex prices will slowly move to normal within a year.
Unless CCP add some new stuff that will drive the price up again.
Why would you want to sell 4000 PLEX? What would you do with the ISK? Unless you are doing some sort of massive speculation (in which case you can profitably sell to buy orders) there's no reason to sell. PLEX are by far the best long term store of value in EVE. ISK has inflated significantly (as shown by the price of minerals and the price of PLEX). PLEX, on the other hand, are worth $15 for as long as EVE is worth playing.
You expect PLEX to move back to "normal" but the long run trend in PLEX in nowhere but up, simply because every day it gets a bit easier to make ISK in EVE, but not much easier to make $15. |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 21:25:52 -
[360] - Quote
Shakuul wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Current plex holders keeping prices up. I know people that have around 4 thousand of plexes they want to sell now. Of course they will not allow for price to drop below the line they bought it in first place , so they are slowly reducing their stock , while keeping price up . There are many more players doing the same thing. Plex prices will slowly move to normal within a year.
Unless CCP add some new stuff that will drive the price up again. Why would you want to sell 4000 PLEX? What would you do with the ISK? Unless you are doing some sort of massive speculation (in which case you can profitably sell to buy orders) there's no reason to sell. PLEX are by far the best long term store of value in EVE. ISK has inflated significantly (as shown by the price of minerals and the price of PLEX). PLEX, on the other hand, are worth $15 for as long as EVE is worth playing. You expect PLEX to move back to "normal" but the long run trend in PLEX in nowhere but up, simply because every day it gets a bit easier to make ISK in EVE, but not much easier to make $15.
If the PLEX holders are fearful that the PLEX change will occur and possibly lock PLEX to an account, what are you going to need 4000 months of game time for? |
|
Shakuul
Infinitus Sapientia
3
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 22:56:22 -
[361] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:If the PLEX holders are fearful that the PLEX change will occur and possibly lock PLEX to an account, what are you going to need 4000 months of game time for?
Fair point, there is always that risk with any asset (the risk that CCP will nerf it). However, is there reason to think CCP is moving in that direction? The ability to use PLEX for many more things (swap for AUR, give to a friend, multiple training) would indicate they are moving towards more, rather than less, use for PLEX. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4970
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 00:08:06 -
[362] - Quote
Noonian Enaka wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Current plex holders keeping prices up. I know people that have around 4 thousand of plexes they want to sell now.
That is a LOT of bound capital. I am not sure if that amount of capital and it`s associated speculation is healthy for the game economy I was always under the impression, that there is way too much ISK influx past and present. It`s understandable that peolpe are looking for a hedge to put all that ISK in...but wow...at 750 million per Plex we are talking about 3million millions Thats enough to **** over any economy. The more I think about it the more I think it would be good if plex would crash overnight down to the 200ish million mark or lower like it used to be.
4K PLEX is 3T ISK, after factoring in that you couldn't get buy order price for that quantity.
Three trillion ISK is less than one twentieth of one percent of the total player built or looted assets in EVE. There is provably more than six quadrillion (6000 T) in player-built assets without counting blueprints, 'unique' ships and the like.
I expect the PLEX price to trend up slowly over time, punctuated with speculative bumps along the way.
200m days are forever gone. 200m prices occurred when there was a lot less ISK in the economy.
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
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Koniforous
Tauren Transit
226
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 02:29:54 -
[363] - Quote
Is it plausible that ccp is the primary entity keeping prices around 800mil? They've said their central bank intervenes when prices increase too fast, but with a new operator, maybe the bank attempts to maintain a steady price against decreases also. Call me a n00b, but it just seems a little far fetched that a pilot or pilot entity can possess enough market force to keep something like plex at a steady ~800mil, but for someone with unbounded access to banned assets and banned accounts it would be an easy thing to accomplish.
Maybe the central bank aims for a specific rate of price growth?
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
100
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 03:57:19 -
[364] - Quote
Koniforous wrote:Is it plausible that ccp is the primary entity keeping prices around 800mil?
Yes, by being bad.
Lowest Peak-concurrent-user numbers since 2007, with newborn player creation levels back to 2010, along with no increase of (new) players willing to spend real cash on the game, and ever-growing number of bittervets with 2.5 accounts average left in the game will do that for this most interesting commodity.
Elementary zupply und demand, friend.
Quote:They've said their central bank intervenes when prices increase too fast
Oooh, could you be so kind as to direct me to learning more details on this most curious facility? Thank you.
Quote:Maybe the central bank aims for a specific rate of price growth?
Entirely possible and entirely bad - Can artificially create supply and put it on the market to suppress prices, or buy out current supply to hike prices via unlimited ISK facility, subject to their data on new player creation numbers, their habits, and their interest in spending lave on a virtual currency at specific price levels/exchange rates.
You didn't hear me say that, but I'm thinking aloud.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
227
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 05:21:34 -
[365] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Koniforous wrote:They've said their central bank intervenes when prices increase too fast Oooh, could you be so kind as to direct me to learning more details on this most curious facility? Thank you. Google...
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
101
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 06:32:59 -
[366] - Quote
I'm just trying to stem human interaction, that is all.
Thanks
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5337
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 10:09:37 -
[367] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:If the PLEX holders are fearful that the PLEX change will occur and possibly lock PLEX to an account, what are you going to need 4000 months of game time for? Even if this were to happen (unlikely), you'd still be able to convert the PLEX to AUR and trade the AUR in the same way PLEX currently trades. I can't see them locking both and screaming "YOLO" on their way down while people explode with monument shooting rage.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
33828
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 12:38:54 -
[368] - Quote
Four thousand PLEX is not that much, considering daily volumes though.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
|
Priest Amarr
Temple's Gate
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 13:48:09 -
[369] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
In 2013 CCP said they had over 10,000 Plex sitting in holding accounts from confiscated banned characters. CCP also admitted that most of the Plex sold on market ends up sitting unused in character hangers.
I think they have some very valid reasons for taking Plex out of the game and into the AUR market. Many sad speculators when this happens.
The moment Plex's convertibility is gone, so would plex. Why would anybody need plex for if they won't be able to trade it for isk? For paying the subscription? You can directly subscribe with your credit card. For secondary training? No need to plex for that either.
The moment you take plex out of the game CCP would start losing accounts big time. Because plex caters two different types of players at once. Player A spends time to make isk in game so he can play for free, Player B has more real money and not much time so he buys plex and trades it for isk with Player A. Therefore player B's real cash finances player A's game time and player A's in game efforts give Player B a chance to get himself shinny stuff without a sweat. Now take the plex out of this equation and suddenly Player A has to pay real cash for his game time and Player B has to grind in game to make isk. They are both unhappy, they are both gone. So as long as CCP is in it's right mind, plex will stay. They may replace it with something even better though. Maybe add more functionality to it.
Plex sitting in hangars without being used doesn't hurt anybody either. When I took a break I had more than 10 plexes in my hangar. I didn't come back for years and they just stood there. When I finally logged back in I found them where I left. This is what you are talking about, and it's not a problem. I can use them for my game time or sell them for isk. It's my concern not CCP's. CCP already got paid for them in advance. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
102
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 13:59:16 -
[370] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Four thousand PLEX is not that much, considering daily volumes though.
Speaking of volumes, it is unavailable pre-2014/07 on eve-markets. http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=29668#history
Fuzz works excellently for the short term charting - https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/marketdisplay.php?typeid=29668®ionid=10000002
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
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Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 20:45:40 -
[371] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:OMG That stupid Toady guy was right! Quote:The team is looking into removing buying PLEX directly and replacing it with buying AUR which can then be redeemed for a PLEX from the New Eden Store, reducing the current ISK/PLEX/AUR to simply ISK/AUR From Day One of the CSM... no more buying Plex on the market, they want us to use AUR instead.
Here is the reference to changing PLEX |
Hemmo Paskiainen
474
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 23:05:29 -
[372] - Quote
Think simple, there's just too few revenue streaming in. I wonder why ccp.... how about: "Ha Ha you should have listned 5 yrs ago"
"Relativity equals time plus momentum: if it can be erased by a single click on a button, would it be worth spending your time?"
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erg cz
Tribal Core
214
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 08:54:58 -
[373] - Quote
Priest Amarr wrote:Because plex caters two different types of players at once.
Wrong. According to CCP statistics, average PLEX changes 4 owners before it got used. Among those 4 owners are ppl with hundreds or even thousands of PLEXes, who keep prices up. So CCP loses money (your type B players need to buy less plexes cause player A gives him more ISK for one) This quota thing, when you can convert only limited amount of PLEXes into AUR, is simple and effective solution how to make those 2 or 3 speculants rage quit. Rest of the community will happily keep on playing.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5341
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 12:33:19 -
[374] - Quote
erg cz wrote:Priest Amarr wrote:Because plex caters two different types of players at once. Wrong. According to CCP statistics, average PLEX changes 4 owners before it got used. Among those 4 owners are ppl with hundreds or even thousands of PLEXes, who keep prices up. So CCP loses money (your type B players need to buy less plexes cause player A gives him more ISK for one) This quota thing, when you can convert only limited amount of PLEXes into AUR, is simple and effective solution how to make those 2 or 3 speculants rage quit. Rest of the community will happily keep on playing. Actually there was a podcast a while back (I'll hunt for it later) with one of the owners of one of the GTC selling websites (I think it was eve-codes) and they were asked about PLEX prices and they stated that there was no real correlation between price of PLEX and PLEX sold. I imagine it's because while people need less PLEX each when the price gets highers, more people are willing to part with real cash for that much more ISK.
As for people trading PLEX, that's what a healthy economy does. It's not a problem that requires a solution, it's a required part of a healthy market. I doubt very much CCP will put in arbitrary limits on or remove the ability to trade PLEX.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Priest Amarr
Temple's Gate
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 08:54:57 -
[375] - Quote
erg cz wrote:Priest Amarr wrote:Because plex caters two different types of players at once. Wrong. According to CCP statistics, average PLEX changes 4 owners before it got used. Among those 4 owners are ppl with hundreds or even thousands of PLEXes, who keep prices up. So CCP loses money (your type B players need to buy less plexes cause player A gives him more ISK for one) This quota thing, when you can convert only limited amount of PLEXes into AUR, is simple and effective solution how to make those 2 or 3 speculants rage quit. Rest of the community will happily keep on playing.
I said two different types of players, not two different players.
CCP doesn't lose money from high plex prices because people's game budgets are limited to begin with. A person that buys a plex for $19.95 and sells it for 800mil won't start paying $160 if you drop plex prices to 100mil. Instead he'll think 100mil wouldn't worth his 19.95 and stop buying altogether.
Plex prices are not going up because of speculation. It's the inflation. Some people are able to pay trillions of isk for buying thousands of plexus because the in-game economy inflation allows them to reach those wallet sizes. In that case majority of players becomes (relatively) poor, and poorer right? Well, welcome to the reality of inflation based economy. This happens everyday in real world. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
123
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 11:40:59 -
[376] - Quote
Priest Amarr wrote:erg cz wrote:Priest Amarr wrote:Because plex caters two different types of players at once. Wrong. According to CCP statistics, average PLEX changes 4 owners before it got used. Among those 4 owners are ppl with hundreds or even thousands of PLEXes, who keep prices up. So CCP loses money (your type B players need to buy less plexes cause player A gives him more ISK for one) This quota thing, when you can convert only limited amount of PLEXes into AUR, is simple and effective solution how to make those 2 or 3 speculants rage quit. Rest of the community will happily keep on playing. I said two different types of players, not two different players. CCP doesn't lose money from high plex prices because people's game budgets are limited to begin with. A person that buys a plex for $19.95 and sells it for 800mil won't start paying $160 if you drop plex prices to 100mil. Instead he'll think 100mil wouldn't worth his 19.95 and stop buying altogether. Plex prices are not going up because of speculation. It's the inflation. Some people are able to pay trillions of isk for buying thousands of plexus because the in-game economy inflation allows them to reach those wallet sizes. In that case majority of players becomes (relatively) poor, and poorer right? Well, welcome to the reality of inflation based economy. This happens everyday in real world.
There is no inflation in this game. It has been said many many times with many many graphics. Eve has been deflationary for more than half a decade. Now even the Faction/DED gear is deflationary.
Falling subscription numbers, free CCP gifts, changes to mining and manufacturing, increased averaged SP and increased availability of drops have made everything in this game deflationary.
Don't believe me? Consult the graph http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65910/1/Indices_2014-02.png
By the way, your statement is completely wrong. There might be an upper limit to how much money the player base will spend because of real life budgets, but just because plex goes to 2bil a piece doesn't mean people will continue to max out their budget.
What you describe is the upper limit of spending, but the bottom limit is zero. I am sure the players using plex for isk would love higher prices, CCP wouldn't though. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
108
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 18:50:54 -
[377] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: There is no inflation in this game. It has been said many many times with many many graphics. Eve has been deflationary for more than half a decade. Now even the Faction/DED gear is deflationary.
Really now? And the prices of Tritanium, Pyerite & other base basket minerals, which are used to calculate Eve's CPI, have been the same as they were back in 2010?
Pyerite: http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=35#history Mexallon: http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=36#history
Sold to you!
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
108
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 19:24:12 -
[378] - Quote
Priest Amarr wrote: CCP doesn't lose money from high plex prices
They do, actually.
[quote]A person that buys a plex for $19.95 and sells it for 800mil won't start paying $160 if you drop plex prices to 100mil. Instead he'll think 100mil wouldn't worth his 19.95 and stop buying altogether.
A price difference of 8 times is an extreme example - yes at those exchange rates people wouldn't be interested in plex. Now, 800 vs 600 is a lot more reasonable - a 25% decrease in plex "purchasing power", but still within the threshold of providing excellent options.
Since prices topped just short of 1bn ISK, that would constitute a 40% decrease, or 1.66 plexes being needed to purchase the same basket of commodities, compared to just one back in Nov of 2014.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
123
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 04:31:45 -
[379] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: There is no inflation in this game. It has been said many many times with many many graphics. Eve has been deflationary for more than half a decade. Now even the Faction/DED gear is deflationary.
Really now? And the prices of Tritanium, Pyerite & other base basket minerals, which are used to calculate Eve's true CPI, have been the same as they were back in 2010? A forty percent rise on average looks pretty inflationary. Pyerite: http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=35#history Mexallon: http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=36#history http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html - 1 Tril ISK circa 2012 vs 380bn per day in 2010 entering & staying can also be disregarded? Sold to you! Incidentally, plex really took off, with a lag of a few months, during the advances in Pyerite & Mexallon, beginning around the start of the year 2012.
The mineral index doesn't matter one hill of beans if the total end product prices are still decreasing. It means either the build costs were reduced or the profits on manufacturing were reduced.
CCP has released the inflation numbers and 4 of the 5 indicators are deflationary, with minerals being the only inflationary index.
Sorry, no one cares what the price of minerals are, but we do care how much a T2 missile launcher is... get it? |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5343
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 10:27:11 -
[380] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Priest Amarr wrote: CCP doesn't lose money from high plex prices
They do, actually. No they don't. As I said above, when one of the ETC traders was interviewed they stated that the number of codes sold does not change with the price of PLEX, likely either because peopel have a set amount they want to spend or codes or the price increases attract more players buying fewer each for the same total.
GankYou wrote:Since prices topped just short of 1bn ISK, that would constitute a 40% decrease, or 1.66 plexes being required to purchase the same basket of commodities, compared to just one back in Nov of 2014. Prices didn't really top just short of 1bn, at least not steadily. If you look at the PLEX graphs the price suddenly shot up rapidly just prior to the isboxer announcement. To me that was an artificial raise being pushed by someone with enough capital to get the price primed for cashing out around the time the announcement was made (which actually raises questions of who had prior knowledge of the change) as you can see here. Even without any other changes I don't think the price would have stayed there without someone holding it up as it was too sharp a rise to be the natural price increase.
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
109
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 10:35:09 -
[381] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: The mineral index doesn't matter one hill of beans if the total end product prices are still decreasing. It means either the build costs were reduced or the profits on manufacturing were reduced.
They are still decreasing?
So we still have tier 3 BS @ 140 mil Carriers sub 900 mln ISK Supercarriers @ 21 bn Cruisers sub 10 mil Freighters below 900 mil, most certainly. Titans at 80bn?
Decreasing he said.
Quote:CCP has released the inflation numbers and 4 of the 5 indicators are deflationary, with minerals being the only inflationary index.
Their CPI calculation is irrelevant: they take a Tengu and see a 60% decrease from the price of 1bn - whoah-hey lets put that into the index with an unknown weight attached - presto deflation!
You want to see Eve's CPI metrics, you look at Tech 1 only, which are 80% of the total ships used in New Eden.
All capital ships are Tech 1.
And do address the point of 28 trillion ISK entering & staying per month. ISK can only be "lost", or destroyed by using NPCs' products or services, everything else is just its healthy breathing through the system.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
109
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 10:45:41 -
[382] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:GankYou wrote:Priest Amarr wrote: CCP doesn't lose money from high plex prices
They do, actually. No they don't. As I said above, when one of the ETC traders was interviewed they stated that the number of codes sold does not change with the price of PLEX, likely either because peopel have a set amount they want to spend or codes or the price increases attract more players buying fewer each for the same total.
Timeframe has to be taken into account, as we are experienced almost 2007 levels of player activity currently. So it is possible that the ones purchasing plex right now are the only people interested to spend any monies on this game at all.
In an expanding economy with new players taking note of plex everyday, they would lose on sales.
Quote:GankYou wrote:Since prices topped just short of 1bn ISK, that would constitute a 40% decrease, or 1.66 plexes being required to purchase the same basket of commodities, compared to just one back in Nov of 2014. Prices didn't really top just short of 1bn, at least not steadily. If you look at the PLEX graphs the price suddenly shot up rapidly just prior to the isboxer announcement. To me that was an artificial raise being pushed by someone with enough capital to get the price primed for cashing out around the time the announcement was made (which actually raises questions of who had prior knowledge of the change) as you can see here. Even without any other changes I don't think the price would have stayed there without someone holding it up as it was too sharp a rise to be the natural price increase.
"Artifical raise" "Natural price increase"
When I bought out Megacyte and Zydrine Empire-wide on March 20th that was pretty natural, and true price discovery ensued.
It is irrelevant how one views this development - market forces conspired to make it so, and the peak is for everyone to see, especially those who would be trying to retrace those levels.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5343
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 11:14:51 -
[383] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Timeframe has to be taken into account, as we are experienced almost 2007 levels of player activity currently. So it is possible that the ones purchasing plex right now are the only people interested to spend any monies on this game at all. In an expanding economy with new players taking note of plex everyday, they would lose on sales. Like you say, more players taking note of PLEX everyday, on both sides of the market. While a single player may not buy as many PLEX, there's always someone in right behind him saying "last month it wasn't worth my money, but now it is". you also have to account for how many people have a set real money budget and get as much PLEX as they can get for that regardless of how much ISK it turns into.
GankYou wrote:"Artifical raise" "Natural price increase" When I bought out Megacyte and Zydrine Empire-wide on March 20th that was pretty natural, and true price discovery ensued. It is irrelevant how one views this development - market forces conspired to make it so, and the peak is for everyone to see, especially those who would be trying to retrace those levels. Yeah, but when you talk about the price dropping you have to talk about a steady price, not a random peak. I could go and buy out an item, quadrupling it's price n the very short term. After a week it's back to normal. We wouldn't then say in a months time that the item had drastically decreased in price since a month ago, since it was never actually at that price, just pushed up temporarily due to an out of the ordinary trading pattern.
To be honest, I think you know the difference :D
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
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Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
109
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 11:25:27 -
[384] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote: Yeah, but when you talk about the price dropping you have to talk about a steady price, not a random peak.
Volume hasn't changed during this development. The thing you regard as "random" are actually the markings of fundamental changes, and turns in the market.
It doesn't matter how these peaks and troughs occur, because following a major change, an instrument may not see those prices again for years, even decades.
Most of the time it is characterised by panic selling, or buying.
Quote:I could go and buy out an item, quadrupling it's price n the very short term. After a week it's back to normal.
That only is possible in illiquid markets and commodities.
Quote:We wouldn't then say in a months time that the item had drastically decreased in price since a month ago, since it was never actually at that price
If the volume had stayed the same, and transactions occurred, then yes that price is indeed more than just chart noise.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5343
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 12:49:32 -
[385] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Volume didn't change during the development leading upto the 1bn ISK mark, and had gone up significantly afterwards - during the crash. The thing you regard as "random" are actually the markings of fundamental changes, and turns in the market. It doesn't matter how these peaks and troughs occur, because following a major change, an instrument may not see those prices again for years, even decades. Most of the time it is characterised by panic selling, or buying. If someone was previously buying and selling each PLEX once and instead switched to just buying twice as much, the price would increase but the volume would remain the same, which is what I believe happened that caused the price to shoot up by nearly 100m in under 2 weeks. As the announcement hit, the volumes then spiked as they cashed out at the inflated price.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
109
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 13:01:50 -
[386] - Quote
A 13% rise over that time period in anticipation of significant and fundamental news is entirely healthy.
You need to account for the fact that the stockpile that had been accumulated during the movement has to be sold, in order to bank a profit. With the volume that is required to push prices of this commodity higher, one can argue that the participants only made 5-7% on average, if even that.
Still, 7% on a trillion investment is 70bn ISK.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
109
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 13:12:36 -
[387] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote: As the announcement hit, the volumes then spiked as they cashed out at the inflated price.
Sell volume. Any buy orders which had not been updated in time had indeed constituted a fair share of the dump - price at that time averages around 896 mln.
As is ordained by the Almighty - some suckers need to be left holding the bag.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5343
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 13:26:14 -
[388] - Quote
GankYou wrote:A 13% rise over that time period in anticipation of significant and fundamental news is entirely healthy. You need to account for the fact that the stockpile that had been accumulated during the movement has to be sold, in order to bank a profit. With the volume that is required to push prices of this commodity higher, one can argue that the participants only made 5-7% on average, if even that. Still, 7% on a trillion investment is 70bn ISK. At the time that the prices were rising there was no anticipation of the announcement, it wasn't hinted at prior to Nov 25th. Otherwise I'd agree that the entire market adjusting to a change would cause that. As it wasn't it leads me to believe it was only a couple of individuals at most. I imagine that knowing there was to be a change that would cause a drop in the PLEX price and sitting on a substantial number of PLEX, it would have been impossible to ships that stockpile at with just sell orders and without taking a loss. However by raising the price substantially so that buy orders were significantly higher, the stock could then be dumped onto them, like you say, leaving some suckers holding the bag.
Of course it's all speculation, I simply refuse to believe that the stable price went from mid 800s to high 900s in under 14 days with no announcements of changes pushing it. It just seems like short term manipulation to me.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
109
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 13:28:37 -
[389] - Quote
Never under-estimate the madness and delusions of the masses once the final ball gets rolling.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
125
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 14:47:10 -
[390] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: The mineral index doesn't matter one hill of beans if the total end product prices are still decreasing. It means either the build costs were reduced or the profits on manufacturing were reduced.
They are still decreasing? So we still have tier 3 BS @ 140 mil Carriers sub 900 mln ISK Supercarriers @ 21 bn Cruisers sub 10 mil Freighters below 900 mil, most certainly. Titans at 80bn? Quote:CCP has released the inflation numbers and 4 of the 5 indicators are deflationary, with minerals being the only inflationary index. Their CPI calculation is irrelevant: they take a Tengu and see a 60% decrease from the price of 1bn - whoah-hey lets put that into the index with an unknown weight attached - presto deflation! You want to see Eve's CPI metrics, you look at Tech 1 only, which are 80% of the total ships used in New Eden. All capital ships are Tech 1, except for the JFs. And do address the point of 28 trillion ISK entering & staying per month. ISK can only be "lost", or destroyed by using NPCs' products or services, everything else is just its healthy breathing through the system.
You assume two things rather poorly. First that most capitals are bought on the market at all and not simply built (thus not actually being counted in CPI) and second that there is enough capitals to overshadow the pirate BS, Navy BS and module market.
CCP Takes ships and fits them with common fittings, since the price of modules has been decimated over the last years the price of the total package is still low. And yes, many T1 ships have dropped and continue to drop in price.
Also why shouldn't the drop from a 90day post release price of 1bil for a tengu that now sells for 140mil not be included? Inflation is inflation and deflation is deflation. But cherry picking one segment or a handful of ships and declaring their graphs and stats wrong is just bad form.
Also to add, take the archon for example. It is down from a 1000 day stable high of 1.5bil to 1.05bil. http://www.eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=23757#history
Yes even capital ships are showing deflationary pressure (See compression changes). Build cost is still 930mil. |
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
109
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 16:01:31 -
[391] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: You assume two things rather poorly. First that most capitals are bought on the market at all and not simply built (thus not actually being counted in CPI)
That is irrelevant, as the value is being built into them from the current Trit, Pyerite, Mexallon valuations.
If they were honest, they'd calculate CPI just as they do with Mineral index, because Trit, Pyerite, Mex, Isogen, Nocx, Zyd & Mega are the irreducible necessities in our universe that one needs to merely survive & function.
Has been so, and so it remains.
Quote:CCP Takes ships and fits them with common fittings, since the price of modules has been decimated over the last years the price of the total package is still low.
Yes, they take T1-fit battleships circa 2003 @ 99mil total and compare them to T2-fit battlecruisers, and then say there is no inflation in Eve.
Prices are stable!
Quote:Also why shouldn't the drop from a 90day post release price of 1bil for a tengu that now sells for 140mil not be included?
Because that's an illiquid commodity, which also constitutes only a minuscule fraction of spaceships used.
We're talking about placing standard table wine in the same basket with a -ú12,000 bottle.
Quote:Inflation is inflation and deflation is deflation. But cherry picking one segment or a handful of ships and declaring their graphs and stats wrong is just bad form.
Yes, indeed - do not cherry pick and single out Deadspace loot, and acknowledge that they had been great inflation in the price of ship hulls.
That is the case, and following the Nullsec ore changes later this month, that is also expected and welcomed. Should probably take until the end of the Summer to properly rebalance.
Also, what of the 28 Trillion ISK per month being injected into the game?
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
127
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 17:34:54 -
[392] - Quote
Actually when battleships came out they weren't cheap. The fact remains that cpi has gone up and down but has averaged more down in the relevant time frame of the last half decade. Furthermore if that 99mil bs you keep bringing up is worth 150mil today after 12 years then you just proved inflation a non factor. Unfortunately for you bs weren't 99 mil back in the day and ships in the teir 2 and 3 are actually cheaper.
Again stop looking at a couple of items and look at the entire primary market together. Yes individual segments have inflated due to buffs, nerfs, game changes but the cost of staple goods and the culmination of the market is deflationary.
Knock that off quoting 28 tril injected monthly without first having the numbers of what was removed. Thousands of accounts have been banned with untold amounts of assets and isk. Also sinks are not included in that number. Stop with the purposely misuse of incomplete data. |
Molic Blackbird
Orion Faction Industries Orion Consortium
132
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 17:45:47 -
[393] - Quote
GankYou wrote:But what of the 28 Trillion ISK per month being injected into the economy?
An increase in money supply is one part of what brings about inflation. You are leaving out the amount of materials that are also being injected into the economy. If there are 28 trillion ISK worth of minerals, moon goo, meta loot and other items entering the game, inflation will be mitigated to a large extent.
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
554
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 17:49:17 -
[394] - Quote
Is 28T not the number after sinks? Sure banned accounts and people quitting aren't accounted for, but it's pretty close to the stats we were given a few years ago (http://blog.beyondreality.se/ISK-faucets-sinks).
.
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
111
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 18:02:17 -
[395] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:that 99mil bs you keep bringing up is worth 150mil today after 12 years then you just proved inflation a non factor.
So we went from there being no inflation in Eve, to inflation being a non-factor. Fascinating.
That example contained the Armageddon battleship, which cost 60 mil then, and 180 now - a 200% increase, or ((180/60)^(1/12) - 1) * 100 = 9.58% yearly inflation.
Quote:Unfortunately for you bs weren't 99 mil back in the day and ships in the teir 2 and 3 are actually cheaper.
Yes, they were 50-60 mil for Tier 1 like the Armageddon and 70-90mil for Tier 2 such as the Apocalypse. That is why I didn't include tiericide of either Battleships or Battlecruisers in the initial figure, as that further establishes the point.
The fully-T1 fit 99 mil example is straight from their own presentation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie9V2P5El0E
Again stop looking at a couple of items and look at the entire primary market together. Yes individual segments have inflated due to buffs, nerfs, game changes but the cost of staple goods and the culmination of the market is deflationary. [/quote]
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
554
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:18:53 -
[396] - Quote
GankYou wrote: That example contained the Armageddon battleship, which cost 60 mil then, and 180 now - a 200% increase, or ((180/60)^(1/12) - 1) * 100 = 9.58% avg yearly inflation.
Those had their material requirements significantly increased when BS tiericide happened though, but you know this, so what is your point?
.
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
111
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:43:08 -
[397] - Quote
This is why I made a remark on Tier 3.
As to the whole grand purpose, I guess if one doesn't see it - there is none.
Carry on as you were.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 03:18:12 -
[398] - Quote
Wow have not been in game for a bit. Was not expecting 850 PLEX |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
127
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 03:23:11 -
[399] - Quote
GankYou wrote:This is why I made a remark on Tier 3. As to the whole grand purpose, I guess if one doesn't see it - there is none. Carry on as you were. P.S. For those who haven't seen the 2014 Economic presentation, it is the most current one to my knowledge - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2hsqEvPGWQ
Did you even watch your own video?
Go to 7:04 and take a look, see how ALL of the indexes are under 100.
Guess you know what that means?
Trit might have gone up 300% since game start, but I guess you can't guess where Zyd, or Mega or the high ends sans Nox has gone?
Bet you forgot to mention how CCP deliberately changed production requirements for ships in the specific groups you are pointing out.
You seem to also have completely abandoned the idea of Capital ship inflation, I thought that was a staple for your argument.
The fact remains, that everything from Modules, ammo, T2 and T3 goods have all decreased in price. Faction and DED has been decimated. Zyd, Mega, Morph all decimated. The build formulas were changed during Tiericide, and we are still seeing the effects of "Mineraless Mining" where miners simply compress their ores and sell that instead of refining.
You cannot argue with CCP's own numbers, own stats, own graphs and then turn around and point to them for support. You didn't even watch your own video. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4996
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 04:05:13 -
[400] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Is 28T not the number after sinks? Sure banned accounts and people quitting aren't accounted for, but it's pretty close to the stats we were given a few years ago (http://blog.beyondreality.se/ISK-faucets-sinks).
Total production is around 2.5Q per year, total destruction around 0.75Q per year. That 28T per month (0.3Q per year) is probably the liquid ISK added after sinks but not considering accounts that go long-term inactive; 56M per subscribed account sounds pretty believable as an average.
Personally I am surprised PLEX haven't gone higher with how stable 0.0 has been for such a long time. Or, more specifically, I'm surprised that ISK as a currency hasn't devalued considerably.
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
116
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:21:38 -
[401] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Total production is around 2.5Q per year, total destruction around 0.75Q per year.
Production is not what you need to look at, if you wish to understand these inflows.
Ideally, this ISK has to be matched to resources, on a monthly basis, that are either mined or obtained otherwise through different means, such as salvaging.
I emphasise the word resources.
CONCORD here acts as a universal bank, essentially expanding credit, and when everyone gets a loan they want, we know what happens to asset prices next.
This topic will keep coming up with ever-greater intensity, as ISK accumulation grows with there being no safety measures in place, such as a Progressive tax, meaning we can end up with major disruptions even in the most liquid of commodities and resources - as can already be observed in plex.
A flat transaction/broker's fee is helpless in averting disaster.
Market McSelling Alt wrote: Did you even watch your own video?
Isn't my video, and it was posted on the topic of plex prices.
Quote:Trit might have gone up 300% since game start, but I guess you can't guess where Zyd, or Mega or the high ends sans Nox has gone?
You're telling me this?
And yet, there has been a net increase in everything Tech 1. Should I spill the beans what will happen again on April 28th?
Quote:Bet you forgot to mention how CCP deliberately changed production requirements for ships in the specific groups you are pointing out.
It doesn't matter for the end user what are the causes of the increase in price.
No one will remember these new Null ore changes six months from now, and increased cost will stay with us forever.
Quote:You cannot argue with CCP's own numbers, own stats, own graphs and then turn around and point to them for support. You didn't even watch your own video.
As much as I like the fact that they've kept this whole Colossal from collapsing catastrophically over the years, there has been great inflation in the price of minerals, and consequently all Tech 1 hulls. Mind you, certain amount of inflation is required for healthy economic growth.
If the whole of Tech 1 is a non-factor to you, then do continue doing the thing that you seem to understand best - 0.01 ISKing Deadspace loot.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
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Priest Amarr
Temple's Gate
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 16:23:38 -
[402] - Quote
There is a misconception about inflation which actually was created by real economists on the purpose of confusing masses about it's real effects. The real measurement of inflation can't be made through some sort of index or product baskets. They only want you to believe it so the the numbers can be adjusted (manipulated) at will.
Inflation is about the size of the liquid injected into an economy out of thin air. This doesn't necessarily mean an increase to low end product prices because in most cases majorities purchasing power doesn't increase. In other terms only the top tier (of people/players) benefit from such liquidity. Look at the real world examples: While the housing market was crashing (due to lack of liquidity for middle class) price of prime locations was increasing. Look at the fine arts market. Ten years ago 100mil was a big deal, today 200mil seems like business as usual. The price of high quality food goes up, the price of junk food goes down. The price of high end clothing increases way above official inflation, the price of low end clothing decreases. One may argue the price increase of luxury goods is irrelevant but in reality it creates an enormous gap between rich and poor, and put's many things out of the reach of middle class. This is an affect of hidden inflation.
Same happens in Eve. The trillions of isk sitting in some accounts won't affect the low end market. Their isk won't create a real demand for majority of goods, but the affects of inflation (hence their bigger than ever wallet sizes) will put a pressure on plex market. Because plex is the only in game commodity that has real convertibility. Compared to ships, modules and even BPO's, plex is an actual alternative to liquid isk. Therefore richer top tier gets, more demand they create for plex. Or let me put it this way, richer they get, more easily they take the control of the market and set the prices at will.
These things were argued 7-8 years ago and there was no plex back then. I remember CCP hiring and economist and making a big deal out of it. From the very beginning they knew the inflationary nature of Eve economy yet they had no choice but allow it to go on since they didn't want to cripple the growth of this (experimental) virtual economy. The affects of in game inflation is not very visible to casual player and only becomes apparent when you want to buy plex, or finance your operations for competing with other alliances, so it's not a big deal for CCP.
It's a big deal for some people though, because it makes the competition with top tier more and more impossible every passing day. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
117
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 18:02:50 -
[403] - Quote
ISK:plex:AUR exchange rate is about to see some changes - http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/newssystem/media/67122/1/AUR.png
Sauce: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/aurum-package-changes/
The difference is 15% between direct AUR purchases and plex exchange rate.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
124
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 16:12:33 -
[404] - Quote
It would seem the anticipation & deployment of the SKINs system has sparked a healthy impulsive move back to 1b ISK - http://i.imgur.com/eoJmOTj.png
Levels to watch out for: 866 mln, 897 mln and of course the prize itself.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/ship-customization-time-to-show-some-skin/
With the SKINs system being received generally positively, with it being fully detailed and reviewed now, and previous BPC collection temporarily inaccessible on the NEX - all points the capsuleers are stocking up on plex, in order to exchange for the either personal, or entrepreneural goals in mind, on the AURUM Store come April 28th, which will see an additional 130 New Ship SKINs, together with the previous batch of around one hundred.
The Power of Two promotion also seems to be making a come back- http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/33btmr/psa_power_of_two_seems_to_be_back_o/
Interesting, interesting times.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
165
|
Posted - 2015.04.25 02:00:45 -
[405] - Quote
Curious.
There is some sort of curious formation developing in the price of PLEX... Following the fundamental change back in Nov 2014, PLEX topped short of 1bn mark, and currently the market appears to be carving out a strange right shoulder looking thingy - http://i.imgur.com/1IiUUA4.png
Outward perspective can help with things - http://i.imgur.com/GHYKQxh.png
It would be most unfortunate for everyone involved, were that to happen.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Magnius Dark
Terpene Conglomerate
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.25 10:43:54 -
[406] - Quote
Do you guys think that people will stop buying plexes and the price of an PLEX will rise up (alot) And the market will slow down? And that will also men that this game will be grind to plex or just not free to play. What do you think? |
Coelomate Tian
The Suicide Kings Black Legion.
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.25 16:04:45 -
[407] - Quote
SKINs will be a huge new pool of demand for PLEX. Because of EVE's complex ecosystem, you don't need to be willing to buy SKINs for money to get them - you just have to pair people willing to buy isk for money (purchasing then selling PLEX) with people willing to spend isk for SKINs (using isk to buy PLEX to convert to aurum, or just using isk to buy SKINs off the market if somebody else has already done the work).
This gives PLEX three extremely valuable intrinsic uses:
(1) Gametime (subscription or multi-character) (2) Asset with fiat currency tether / hedge against inflation (reasonable to assume 10 PLEX now and 10 PLEX in the future will hold similar purchasing power, less reasonable to assume that of most in-game items or currencies) (3) Converting to Aurum to purchase SKINs (and to a lesser extent clothing)
Of course speculation, manipulation, scamming, honorable PLEX tank, and other uses contribute to the picture too. And if speculation in the past has been hard enough, there may be stockpiled PLEX to meet the demand for Aurum, at least initially. So PLEX prices might not double tomorrow, but the SKIN system gives me more reason to believe PLEX will at least remain "expensive" if not spike in value. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
167
|
Posted - 2015.04.25 16:15:28 -
[408] - Quote
Only one assumption clouds this judgment - that the SKINs will be selling at the PLEX exchange rate.
Purchasing AURUM directly already puts the seller at an advantage by at least 15%, which is the average AUR per $ difference between these two methods. We will labour very hard indeed to undermine even the AURUM sellers, with our mountains of supply.
Current exchange rate stands at 242k vs 210k ISK per 1 AURUM.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Coelomate Tian
The Suicide Kings Black Legion.
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.25 16:28:48 -
[409] - Quote
Good point. There will be a huge difference between the 'rate' of existing skinned ship SKINs (stockpiles, as you note, will be huge) and new SKINs (which must start life as Aurum before coming into existence Tuesday). It will also be interesting to see if certain new SKINs are popular can command a temporary premium to the PLEX/isk/Aurum rate - I'm going to try and be online arbitraging like a crazy person if opportunities pop up soon after the patch. |
Suur Ala
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 16:15:00 -
[410] - Quote
Sorry to be a little off-topic, but what tool is that and how is it pulling market history from that far back? Thanks in advance! |
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
175
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 17:34:09 -
[411] - Quote
Suur Ala wrote:Sorry to be a little off-topic, but what tool is that and how is it pulling market history from that far back? Thanks in advance!
The charting is provided by the https://element-43.com web-site using data from CREST.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Suur Ala
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 19:39:57 -
[412] - Quote
Thanks! |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
199
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 04:17:27 -
[413] - Quote
The price has retraced 50% of the fall from the 952 mil top back in Nov of 2014.
There's still time and room to get your supers SKINs and sell them at 100-150% mark-up.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Jori McKie
New Caldari Bureau of Investigation
235
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 09:21:51 -
[414] - Quote
PLEX will rise until EVE population is more or less saturated with SKINS with several dips in between.
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."
--áAbrazzar
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
200
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 15:22:22 -
[415] - Quote
Thank you, captain McKie.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Jori McKie
New Caldari Bureau of Investigation
236
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 15:51:40 -
[416] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Thank you, captain McKie.
Someone has to state the obvious ;)
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."
--áAbrazzar
|
Angelica Everstar
138
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 15:52:24 -
[417] - Quote
Well... there is likely a sale and soon to be dev blog that is going to affect PLEX a fair bit :)
§ Any typos, bad spelling or grammar found, are yours to keepGäó
¢ Please support PLEX for GOOD for Nepal !
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE07 1 Trillion // Total : 2+ Trillon ISK
@EveEntrepreneur
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
202
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 17:49:43 -
[418] - Quote
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/10-discount-on-all-plex-sales/
Quote:We are happy to announce that over the course of the weekend, the EVE Community can enjoy a 10% discount on all PLEX sales!
Whether you're looking to pick up that sought after ship skin, activate multiple character training, or reactivate an account for yourself or a wingman, there's never been a better time to pick up a PLEX.
The right shoulder is coming along, nicely - http://i.imgur.com/GHYKQxh.png
a++ püñ Gùò_Gùò a++püñ CCP gib shorts pls
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
239
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 19:08:30 -
[419] - Quote
Gank, where do you see plex prices at in December? Based on your graphing, and also in separate based on your intuition? I'm guessing this will be a temporary damper to the price rise and when its done plex will recover quickly to slightly below 900mil, and achieve ~1bil by December.
Edit: How do plex for goods affect the price of plex? Anyone know? I've never bothered to investigate. I would think it would increase price, and if ccp gets approval for the Nepal plex for good prices could retrace much fast....
TAUTX: Private Bank & Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
[TAUTX: Weekly Lotteries][3]
[TAUTX: 3rd Party Services][4]
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
202
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 20:01:22 -
[420] - Quote
Seven hundred mil this coming Summer, provided the expansions CCP are planning to put out are a success.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
|
Angelica Everstar
139
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 20:38:47 -
[421] - Quote
I am willing to better 10 PLEX that we are NOT going to hit 750 in the next 3 months
Sale hit as predicted - dev blog next
§ Any typos, bad spelling or grammar found, are yours to keepGäó
¢ Please support PLEX for GOOD for Nepal !
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE07 1 Trillion // Total : 2+ Trillon ISK
@EveEntrepreneur
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
202
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 21:08:41 -
[422] - Quote
I'll take the bet at a 3:1 ratio. Average across 4 major trade hubs by August 1st.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Angelica Everstar
139
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 21:55:57 -
[423] - Quote
3:1 - so I get 30 and you get 10 ?
Rens/Heck - unless place
Avg of trade PLEX per day in Forge, Domain and Sinq L. weighted by traded amount. From 1/5 -> To 1/8 Goes below 750m or not.
Collateral holder Chribba.
§ Any typos, bad spelling or grammar found, are yours to keepGäó
¢ Please support PLEX for GOOD for Nepal !
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE07 1 Trillion // Total : 2+ Trillon ISK
@EveEntrepreneur
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
129
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 23:01:50 -
[424] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:3:1 - so I get 30 and you get 10 ? Rens/Hek - unless place Avg of trade PLEX per day in Forge, Domain and Sinq L. weighted by traded amount. Before 1st August, does it go below 750m or not. (Collateral holder Chribba.)
No, it will hit 750 on or about September 15th. It will go up before Christmas and back down to 700 at end of year.
I wouldn't bet on those odds though as that is a loanshark style bet. But come up with something mutually beneficial and we can talk to Chribba. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
562
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 23:33:56 -
[425] - Quote
I always like to see people put their money where their mouth is. It's too late to back out now .
Angelica Everstar wrote:I am willing to better 10 PLEX that we are NOT going to hit 750 in the next 3 months Sale hit as predicted - dev blog next
GankYou wrote:I'll take the bet at a 3:1 ratio. Average across 4 major trade hubs by August 1st.
.
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
203
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 00:41:17 -
[426] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:3:1 - so I get 30 and you get 10 ?
Your 10 / 3, price averaged across 4 trade hubs as per https://element-43.com
No collateral - only the pirate's word, because I find it generates the maximum amount of drama this way.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
562
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 00:51:46 -
[427] - Quote
There's no drama in your position, only shame .
.
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
205
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 02:17:58 -
[428] - Quote
Bagholder 170x order filled at 840 mln in Jita - We'll see where it goes from here.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Angelica Everstar
144
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 09:24:03 -
[429] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Angelica Everstar wrote:3:1 - so I get 30 and you get 10 ? Rens/Hek - unless place Avg of trade PLEX per day in Forge, Domain and Sinq L. weighted by traded amount. Before 1st August, does it go below 750m or not. (Collateral holder Chribba.) No, it will hit 750 on or about September 15th. It will go up before Christmas and back down to 700 at end of year. I wouldn't bet on those odds though as that is a loanshark style bet. But come up with something mutually beneficial and we can talk to Chribba. Does the avg. of PLEX go blow 700m before 1st Jan 2016?
We both give Chribba 5 PLEX : If it does go below - You will get the 10 PLEX from Chribba. If it does not go below - I will get the 10 PLEX from Chribba.
Data use to determine : Data from EVE market history of, as seen in client. Avg. of traded PLEX of the day in Forge, Domain and Sinq L. weighted by traded amount.
§ Any typos, bad spelling or grammar found, are yours to keepGäó
¢ Please support PLEX for GOOD for Nepal !
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE07 1 Trillion // Total : 2+ Trillon ISK
@EveEntrepreneur
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
207
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 09:29:09 -
[430] - Quote
Why did the date get pushed back all of a sudden?
Averages across the four major trade hubs as reported by https://element-43.com/market/29668/ is more accurate than any other method, because the website uses CREST.
No third parties - just the word, and I wouldn't want to have devalued PLEX returned to me on the termination date.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
|
Angelica Everstar
144
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 09:32:18 -
[431] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Angelica Everstar wrote:3:1 - so I get 30 and you get 10 ? Your 10 / 3, price averaged across 4 trade hubs as per https://element-43.comNo collateral - only the pirate's word, because I find it generates the maximum amount of drama this way.
Does the avg. of PLEX go blow 750m before 1st Aug 2015?
We both give Chribba 0 PLEX : If it does go below - You will get the 5 PLEX from me. If it does not go below - I will get the 10 PLEX from you.
Data use to determine : Data from EVE market history of, as seen in client (Which should be the same as Element43). Avg. of traded PLEX of the day in Forge, Domain Heimatar, and Sinq L. weighted by traded amount.
§ Any typos, bad spelling or grammar found, are yours to keepGäó
¢ Please support PLEX for GOOD for Nepal !
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE07 1 Trillion // Total : 2+ Trillon ISK
@EveEntrepreneur
|
Angelica Everstar
144
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 09:37:33 -
[432] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Why did the date get pushed back all of a sudden? Averages across the four major trade hubs as reported by https://element-43.com/market/29668/ is more accurate than any other method, because the website uses CREST. No third parties - just the word, and I wouldn't want to have devalued PLEX returned to me on the termination date.
Are you also Market McSelling ?
Data as per client, is the source. CREST is a copy, and Element-43 is a "unknown" 3rd party "stating" it uses CREST (Likely does, but still)...
Why data as per client is a most for me, to be willing to take part :)
§ Any typos, bad spelling or grammar found, are yours to keepGäó
¢ Please support PLEX for GOOD for Nepal !
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE07 1 Trillion // Total : 2+ Trillon ISK
@EveEntrepreneur
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
207
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 09:38:10 -
[433] - Quote
What happened to the 10 PLEX on the table? Make it 1:1 then - ten both ways.
I would only agree on data as provided by element-43.com - should you find any fault in their work, let me know as soon as possible.
Content creation - almost Page two!
Angelica Everstar wrote:GankYou wrote:Why did the date get pushed back all of a sudden? Averages across the four major trade hubs as reported by https://element-43.com/market/29668/ is more accurate than any other method, because the website uses CREST. No third parties - just the word, and I wouldn't want to have devalued PLEX returned to me on the termination date. Are you also Market McSelling ?
Yes, I like debating myself on Internet forums through alts.
Quote:Data as per client, is the source. CREST is a copy, and Element-43 is a "unknown" 3rd party "stating" it uses CREST (Likely does, but still)...
As much as I like sitting with a calculator, those CREST averages are weighted for volume to filter out the noise.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Angelica Everstar
144
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 09:59:28 -
[434] - Quote
Does the avg. of PLEX go blow 750m before 1st Aug 2015?
If it does go below - You will get the 10 PLEX from me. If it does not go below - I will get the 10 PLEX from you.
Data use to determine : Data from EVE market history, as seen in client. Avg. of traded PLEX of the day in Forge, Domain Heimatar, and Sinq L. weighted by traded amount.
Well - you are free to use those site to see if the PLEX has gone below (or even close), and I will likely do the same. BUT - Since the data from the client is the original source. I'm only willing to accept THOSE data, as everything else gives room for errors.
§ Any typos, bad spelling or grammar found, are yours to keepGäó
¢ Please support PLEX for GOOD for Nepal !
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE07 1 Trillion // Total : 2+ Trillon ISK
@EveEntrepreneur
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
208
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 10:03:52 -
[435] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:Does the avg. of PLEX go blow 750m before 1st Aug 2015?
If it does go below - You will get the 10 PLEX from me. If it does not go below - I will get the 10 PLEX from you.
Acceptable.
Quote:Data use to determine : Data from EVE market history, as seen in client. Avg. of traded PLEX of the day in Forge, Domain Heimatar, and Sinq L. weighted by traded amount.
Is not acceptable. vOv
Quote:Well - you are free to use those site to see if the PLEX has gone below (or even close), and I will likely do the same. BUT - Since the data from the client is the original source. I'm only willing to accept THOSE data, as everything else gives room for errors.
There are far larger problems at hand, when an error of 2 mil makes it or breaks it for those specified conditions.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Angelica Everstar
144
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 10:08:38 -
[436] - Quote
Does the avg. of PLEX go blow 750m before 1st Aug 2015?
If it does go below - You will get the 10 PLEX from me. If it does not go below - I will get the 10 PLEX from you.
Data use to determine : Data from EVE market history, as seen in client. Avg. of traded PLEX of the day in Sinq Laison, Heimatar, Domain and the Forge regions weighted by traded amount.
Are my terms
If you wish to discuses them - PM me - let us not derail this thread anymore than already
§ Any typos, bad spelling or grammar found, are yours to keepGäó
¢ Please support PLEX for GOOD for Nepal !
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE07 1 Trillion // Total : 2+ Trillon ISK
@EveEntrepreneur
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
209
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 10:12:46 -
[437] - Quote
Fuzzwork or 43-element for data. vOv
This thread could use a lively discussion again - I'd love to have the guy who's losing 1bn ISK everytime the price goes down by 5.882 mil come join us.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Angelica Everstar
145
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 18:35:23 -
[438] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:Well... there is likely a sale and soon to be dev blog that is going to affect PLEX a fair bit :)
And ... the dev blog http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/plex-for-good-nepal/
§ Any typos, bad spelling or grammar found, are yours to keepGäó
¢ Please support PLEX for GOOD for Nepal !
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE07 1 Trillion // Total : 2+ Trillon ISK
@EveEntrepreneur
|
Angelica Everstar
151
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 19:23:02 -
[439] - Quote
Any takers on if PLEX reach 1b or not within the month ?
§ Any typos, bad spelling or grammar found, are yours to keepGäó
¢ Please support PLEX for GOOD for Nepal !
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE07 1 Trillion // Total : 2+ Trillon ISK
@EveEntrepreneur
|
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
240
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 20:20:50 -
[440] - Quote
Is the sale over? If prices continue to rise I'd expect the sale to continue, or a new one to be announced soon....
TAUTX: Private Bank & Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
[TAUTX: Weekly Lotteries][3]
[TAUTX: 3rd Party Services][4]
|
|
Angelica Everstar
155
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 20:47:38 -
[441] - Quote
To my knowledge sale is over tmr. Might see another on the final days of the PLEX4GOOD
§ Any typos, bad spelling or grammar found, are yours to keepGäó
¢ Please support PLEX for GOOD for Nepal !
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE07 1 Trillion // Total : 2+ Trillon ISK
@EveEntrepreneur
|
Lil Bo Peep
Insight Securities
7
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 13:06:11 -
[442] - Quote
Xanato Kaso wrote: I enjoy mining. 6 of my toons are dedicated towards mining and this one is towards combat. but I have to spend a lot of time mining just to pay for PLEXES when i could be using those minerals for my industry goals. all due to the super inflated price of PLEX.
I used to run a 6 ship mining fleet, I enjoyed it too. Then PLEX got expensive and it sucked and I was tired of feeling obligated to mine MORE, and EVERY DAY to maintain my accounts. Then I realized that after subtracting my PLEX cost, dual boxing missions netted me more ISK/Hr than sextuple-boxing miners so I sold my miners. Then I realized that 45 minutes at my RL job nets a month worth of game time for 1 account. Now I pay with a CC and explore the other things EVE has to offer, I play whenever I want, and I don't care about PLEX prices. YMMV, but the takeaway is that missioning is (can easily be, if you do it right) more profitable and I also found it to be similarly relaxing and enjoyable. It's ultimately less stressful as well, as I have fewer accounts to worry about. |
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
33880
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 13:45:10 -
[443] - Quote
Koniforous wrote:Is the sale over? If prices continue to rise I'd expect the sale to continue, or a new one to be announced soon....
I'm just wondering at which point will CCP **** a brick and try to depress the prices longterm.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5580
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 14:42:26 -
[444] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Koniforous wrote:Is the sale over? If prices continue to rise I'd expect the sale to continue, or a new one to be announced soon.... I'm just wondering at which point will CCP **** a brick and try to depress the prices longterm. Why would they ever do that?
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
240
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 14:54:45 -
[445] - Quote
They had sale after sale last year while prices were experiencing wild fluctuations. I don't think ccp aims to maintain a specific price, but rather, a specific rate of price increase. I've suspected that when prices increase by ~100mil within only a few days/weeks, ccp intervenes with a sale, and if prices continue rising, they begin selling off banned account plex to buy orders for less than the order is posted. I'm more concerned about ccp's long term promise of game time via purchased plex, and how they plan to handle it.
I foresee a LOT more uses of plex in the future that completely destroy the plex [releasing ccp from promised game time (releasing ccp from paying back a loan/bond purchased by a pilot)]. Whether or not this will make prices rise though is beyond my scope, I would guess prices would rise however if supply becomes limited. But with ever increasing ways to use plex, new players would have to continue coming into the game for supplies to remain high and isk values to remain low. Something I'd guess won't happen unless ccp does something like blizzard did with cataclysm and change their entire eve universe upside down (a path we seem to be on.)
Blah blah blah
TAUTX: Private Bank & Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
[TAUTX: Weekly Lotteries][3]
[TAUTX: 3rd Party Services][4]
|
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
33880
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 14:55:06 -
[446] - Quote
Various reasons, 1 PLEX costing more than 1 month of regular subscription probably at the top.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5580
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 15:40:36 -
[447] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Various reasons, 1 PLEX costing more than 1 month of regular subscription probably at the top. A PLEX is a monthly subscription, and it's ISK price is irrelevant against subscription prices. Consider that a PLEX on Serenity is over 3b, there's no reason to assume they will ever intervene by pushing for a hard limit on price.
Koniforous wrote:I don't think ccp aims to maintain a specific price, but rather, a specific rate of price increase. This. They intervene when prices rise or fall too quickly, and usually do so by trading PLEX which has been taken from botters and the like. To quote them directly:Quote:EVE Central Bank may, or may not, take actions to intervene with the PLEX market if its stability is severely threatened. - Important to note that it does not mean that there is a specific target for PLEX prices or money supply in the future.
Koniforous wrote:I'm more concerned about ccp's long term promise of game time via purchased plex, and how they plan to handle it.
I foresee a LOT more uses of plex in the future that completely destroy the plex [releasing ccp from promised game time (releasing ccp from paying back a loan/bond purchased by a pilot)]. Whether or not this will make prices rise though is beyond my scope, I would guess prices would rise however if supply becomes limited. But with ever increasing ways to use plex, new players would have to continue coming into the game for supplies to remain high and isk values to remain low. Something I'd guess won't happen unless ccp does something like blizzard did with cataclysm and change their entire eve universe upside down (a path we seem to be on.) I think it's pretty safe to say that PLEX for game time will continue as normal. As for other uses, I'm sure they will add more as time goes on, it's a pretty good way of running purchases. That PLEX will rise in prices is a certainty regardless. PLEX price generally goes up, it always will. I'll honestly be surprised if we don't see the 1b PLEX this year.
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
33880
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 16:22:51 -
[448] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:A PLEX is a monthly subscription, and it's ISK price is irrelevant against subscription prices. Consider that a PLEX on Serenity is over 3b, there's no reason to assume they will ever intervene by pushing for a hard limit on price.
CCP doesn't directly manage the Chinese server, though. CCP earns more cold, hard cash per PLEX used than if that person were to subscribe through a credit card. Especially when you consider the discounts they give for buying multiple months at the same time. If you take into account that economics stats that CCP released show that EVE's economy is deflationary, the only conclusion is that PLEX is currently massively overpriced due to upwards manipulation. The question is, where will CCP draw the line, since it's directly tied to their profit as a company.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5581
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Posted - 2015.05.06 16:49:28 -
[449] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:CCP doesn't directly manage the Chinese server, though. CCP earns more cold, hard cash per PLEX used than if that person were to subscribe through a credit card. Especially when you consider the discounts they give for buying multiple months at the same time. If you take into account that economics stats that CCP released show that EVE's economy is deflationary, the only conclusion is that PLEX is currently massively overpriced due to upwards manipulation. The question is, where will CCP draw the line, since it's directly tied to their profit as a company. But why would they draw a line? If anything, they want prices to be higher, as someone is more likely to buy an extra PLEX to sell for 3b isk than they are to sell one for 800m. I honestly don't think CCP will ever intervene beyond what they currently do, which is to slow down rapid spikes and falls in price, which they purely do to keep the economy from crashing.
There's a bit of truth though to the manipulation in that a large number of PLEX are held by traders and a lot are actively traded, but the primary driver for the continuous uptick in price is what people are willing to pay for purchase and consumption.
As it stands PLEX are actually pretty cheap. You can PLEX an account with a highsec miner playing semi-AFK for 2.5 hours a day can PLEX every month. That's one of the lowest forms of income, and you can still PLEX an account in a relatively small amount of playtime. I think it will be a long time before PLEX hits any form of ceiling.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
130
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Posted - 2015.05.06 16:56:56 -
[450] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:CCP doesn't directly manage the Chinese server, though. CCP earns more cold, hard cash per PLEX used than if that person were to subscribe through a credit card. Especially when you consider the discounts they give for buying multiple months at the same time. If you take into account that economics stats that CCP released show that EVE's economy is deflationary, the only conclusion is that PLEX is currently massively overpriced due to upwards manipulation. The question is, where will CCP draw the line, since it's directly tied to their profit as a company. But why would they draw a line? If anything, they want prices to be higher, as someone is more likely to buy an extra PLEX to sell for 3b isk than they are to sell one for 800m. I honestly don't think CCP will ever intervene beyond what they currently do, which is to slow down rapid spikes and falls in price, which they purely do to keep the economy from crashing. There's a bit of truth though to the manipulation in that a large number of PLEX are held by traders and a lot are actively traded, but the primary driver for the continuous uptick in price is what people are willing to pay for purchase and consumption. As it stands PLEX are actually pretty cheap. You can PLEX an account with a highsec miner playing semi-AFK for 2.5 hours a day can PLEX every month. That's one of the lowest forms of income, and you can still PLEX an account in a relatively small amount of playtime. I think it will be a long time before PLEX hits any form of ceiling.
That is far too short-term sighted. CCP wants cheap plex because they want more subscription numbers. As it is we are dropping again at 2013 rates. Seeing average users down almost 10k from this time last year.
CCP wants a healthy balance where people will still buy Plex but not too high that people start leaving or hibernating accounts. |
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Koniforous
Tauren Transit
240
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Posted - 2015.05.06 17:09:48 -
[451] - Quote
Could it be that the main reason for gradual price increase of plex is due to the very mechanic ccp uses to lower prices? Plex sales.
I wonder if plex price acts like fiat currency inflation, that to lower rates more plex is pumped into the system lowering prices for short time, and then elevating prices in long term because of speculative traders buying plex and holding them thus shortening the supply.
Either way, I foresee prices continually rising also. I'd guess that with more and more ways to use/destroy plex, we will see higher and higher prices of plex, resulting in more pilots subbing with cash, not plex. This will have a slowing effect on price increase.
I'm not sure how less speculative buying and a shrinking supply of pilots that buy plex for cash to pump into the economy will affect the price though. I imagine with everything turning to aurum, demand for plex might decrease, prices might fall, and eventually we may see an aurum dominated market just before ccp decides to get rid of plex and deal strictly with aurum. I don't know what I'm talking about.
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Angelica Everstar
156
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Posted - 2015.05.06 18:04:55 -
[452] - Quote
I will say this much - number don't lie
Its going to be interesting times ahead
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Koniforous
Tauren Transit
241
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Posted - 2015.05.06 18:09:20 -
[453] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:I will say this much - number don't lie Its going to be interesting times ahead Someone's needs to make a graph overlay of 1.plex prices, 2.new players, 3.overall population, 4.plex sale dates and duration, 5.amount of plex purchased/sold, 6. Aurum stuff
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Angelica Everstar
156
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Posted - 2015.05.06 18:17:23 -
[454] - Quote
I got one for private use, minus the Auruum
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Koniforous
Tauren Transit
241
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Posted - 2015.05.06 18:22:15 -
[455] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:I got one for private use, minus the Auruum I'm too lazy or I'd make one and post it on MD forums. Share it with us! I'd like to see aurum prices, aurum sales, and even aurum token prices on it too, I think those would be good indicators.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5581
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Posted - 2015.05.06 19:26:33 -
[456] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:That is far too short-term sighted. CCP wants cheap plex because they want more subscription numbers. As it is we are dropping again at 2013 rates. Seeing average users down almost 10k from this time last year.
CCP wants a healthy balance where people will still buy Plex but not too high that people start leaving or hibernating accounts. As long as PLEX is being consumed, I don't think they much care where it's going, subs or services. And PLEX is cheap, the effort you gave to put in to PLEX is minimal. It's not as cheap as the laziest casuals would like, but it's not them it's serving. If everyone could just PLEX their accounts with a couple of hours of effort, you'd find PLEX prices increasing even more rapidly, as demand shoots up while supply drops off. All the time prices are naturally rising it means tht supply is still chasing demand, which is ideal. I tell you what though, if they ever did decide to try to force a price cap, you'd see the economy crash faster than you can imagine when the long-term investors cash out.
Quite honestly, I think what you've got there is wishful thinking. Reality is that CCP will let PLEX continue fairly naturally, which means up.
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Koniforous
Tauren Transit
241
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Posted - 2015.05.06 20:21:01 -
[457] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:That is far too short-term sighted. CCP wants cheap plex because they want more subscription numbers. As it is we are dropping again at 2013 rates. Seeing average users down almost 10k from this time last year.
CCP wants a healthy balance where people will still buy Plex but not too high that people start leaving or hibernating accounts. As long as PLEX is being consumed, I don't think they much care where it's going, subs or services. And PLEX is cheap, the effort you gave to put in to PLEX is minimal. It's not as cheap as the laziest casuals would like, but it's not them it's serving. If everyone could just PLEX their accounts with a couple of hours of effort, you'd find PLEX prices increasing even more rapidly, as demand shoots up while supply drops off. All the time prices are naturally rising it means tht supply is still chasing demand, which is ideal. I tell you what though, if they ever did decide to try to force a price cap, you'd see the economy crash faster than you can imagine when the long-term investors cash out. Quite honestly, I think what you've got there is wishful thinking. Reality is that CCP will let PLEX continue fairly naturally, which means up. Occasionally, however, the short in supply due to demand is driven by speculative investors, and that is not healthy for the economy, nor for ccp as a business.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5581
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Posted - 2015.05.06 21:26:09 -
[458] - Quote
Koniforous wrote:Occasionally, however, the short in supply due to demand is driven by speculative investors, and that is not healthy for the economy, nor for ccp as a business. There's no evidence to suggest it's not healthy for either. Again though, I think it's wishful thinking over anything else if you think CCP are going to intervene more than they currently do.
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Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
1006
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 21:41:49 -
[459] - Quote
Koniforous wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:That is far too short-term sighted. CCP wants cheap plex because they want more subscription numbers. As it is we are dropping again at 2013 rates. Seeing average users down almost 10k from this time last year.
CCP wants a healthy balance where people will still buy Plex but not too high that people start leaving or hibernating accounts. As long as PLEX is being consumed, I don't think they much care where it's going, subs or services. And PLEX is cheap, the effort you gave to put in to PLEX is minimal. It's not as cheap as the laziest casuals would like, but it's not them it's serving. If everyone could just PLEX their accounts with a couple of hours of effort, you'd find PLEX prices increasing even more rapidly, as demand shoots up while supply drops off. All the time prices are naturally rising it means tht supply is still chasing demand, which is ideal. I tell you what though, if they ever did decide to try to force a price cap, you'd see the economy crash faster than you can imagine when the long-term investors cash out. Quite honestly, I think what you've got there is wishful thinking. Reality is that CCP will let PLEX continue fairly naturally, which means up. Occasionally, however, the short in supply due to demand is driven by speculative investors, and that is not healthy for the economy, nor for ccp as a business. Make sure and phone BP and Exxon-Mobil to inform them that speculators are bad for business. Give us a detailed write-up of how long they spend laughing at you. |
Angelica Everstar
156
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Posted - 2015.05.06 21:43:44 -
[460] - Quote
I know of a few "speculative investors", that do not touch PLEX, due to CCP has clearly and repeatedly stated that "massive" manipulation of PLEX will get you banned.
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Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
1006
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Posted - 2015.05.06 21:49:14 -
[461] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:I know of a few "speculative investors", that do not touch PLEX, due to CCP has clearly and repeatedly stated that "massive" manipulation of PLEX will get you banned. I won't touch them anymore for a few reasons, and being banned isn't one of them. A: there is way too much damned volume for all but the most wealthy individuals (likely the literal top 1%) to make much of a dent. B: CCP can throw PLEX on sale whenever they want, for however long they want, and completely screw up anything you were trying to accomplish. C: it is one of the few things in Eve (along with Aurum based items) that have a theoretically infinite supply. A bored guy with a fat wallet could completely annihilate the PLEX market within thirty minutes, if he felt so inclined. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
567
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 22:08:34 -
[462] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:I know of a few "speculative investors", that do not touch PLEX, due to CCP has clearly and repeatedly stated that "massive" manipulation of PLEX will get you banned.
I haven't heard of that before, how massive is "massive?
.
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Koniforous
Tauren Transit
241
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Posted - 2015.05.06 22:45:56 -
[463] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Koniforous wrote: Occasionally, however, the short in supply due to demand is driven by speculative investors, and that is not healthy for the economy, nor for ccp as a business.
Make sure and phone BP and Exxon-Mobil to inform them that speculators are bad for business. Give us a detailed write-up of how long they spend laughing at you. I never said they were bad for business, I said bad for the economy. More specifically, I said when demand driven price increase is caused primarily by investors it is bad for the economy.
The housing bubble and its collapse is one such example.
I guess I did! But that was intended differently....
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
288
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Posted - 2015.05.06 22:53:56 -
[464] - Quote
Koniforous, speculators, monkeys with fifty times the leverage, sphaghetti monsters - they all provide liquidity to the market. What is unhealthy, is the dropping velocity of the commodity in question, which is somewhat similar to velocity of money concept in, as could be observed in the economy beyond the Eve Gate.
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
33883
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 11:17:25 -
[465] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:But why would they draw a line? If anything, they want prices to be higher, as someone is more likely to buy an extra PLEX to sell for 3b isk than they are to sell one for 800m. I honestly don't think CCP will ever intervene beyond what they currently do, which is to slow down rapid spikes and falls in price, which they purely do to keep the economy from crashing.
There's a bit of truth though to the manipulation in that a large number of PLEX are held by traders and a lot are actively traded, but the primary driver for the continuous uptick in price is what people are willing to pay for purchase and consumption.
As it stands PLEX are actually pretty cheap. You can PLEX an account with a highsec miner playing semi-AFK for 2.5 hours a day can PLEX every month. That's one of the lowest forms of income, and you can still PLEX an account in a relatively small amount of playtime. I think it will be a long time before PLEX hits any form of ceiling.
PLEX is being actively manipulated, there's buy orders appearing at 10m above the next lowest one, I've even seen 4x5 sets with a larger than 0.01 ISK price difference that were placed at the same time. You then just wait for people to outbid you by 0.01 and you don't need to do anything else.
Another note about the Chinese server, their ships are about as twice as expensive as they are on our shard, if I do recall correctly. The equivalent PLEX price for Tranquility would be 1.5 billion per unit. The end is nearer than you think.
Additionally, for every person who wasn't injecting PLEX into the economy that will start doing so at higher prices, there's a person who doesn't need to buy as many to fund his ships. The supply will largely remain unchanged. It will drop way before the aforementioned price point too. At 900m p/u, people can buy a cheap T2 fit Vindicator with a single PLEX, whereas at 800m p/u, they need two. There are all sorts of price breakpoints like that along the way, that will gradually taper off supply as they are being hit. PLEX producers are a minority, and most of them are already established.
Now, let's spend a moment to talk about who actually uses PLEX. It's not, or you, or someone who wants to play for free. Can you guess who it is? That's right, it's alts! Nobody wants to pay for his second, or third or fourth account. Most people use cash for their main, however. Conversely, it's easier to stop subbing an alt than it is to stop subbing entirely if you were playing on a single account. People will shed those alts as they go. At this point, panic selling would begin as sell orders stop getting bought. It will be hilarious.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
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Jori McKie
New Caldari Bureau of Investigation
240
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Posted - 2015.05.07 12:46:17 -
[466] - Quote
There is market manipulation that i have no doubt. The question is how much influence does it have? My take is not that much, you can't manipulate a downsizing/upsizing massive market into the complete opposite for a longer time period or in other words you can't reverse a market trend longterm you can just enhance it. Of course with enough ISK and time you could do that to smaller market getting the price to a new level but you will accumulate a lot of overpriced stuff while doing it. The only group who could manipulate PLEX longterm are alliances with a high income per month due to renting or massive numbers like Goons, PL or NC and i guess that is who is Angelica Everstar referring to. But i might be totally wrong because i'm not privy to insider information.
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."
--áAbrazzar
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u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
25
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Posted - 2015.05.07 16:36:25 -
[467] - Quote
Jori McKie wrote:There is market manipulation that i have no doubt. The question is how much influence does it have? My take is not that much, you can't manipulate a downsizing/upsizing massive market into the complete opposite for a longer time period or in other words you can't reverse a market trend longterm you can just enhance it. Of course with enough ISK and time you could do that to smaller market getting the price to a new level but you will accumulate a lot of overpriced stuff while doing it. The only group who could manipulate PLEX longterm are alliances with a high income per month due to renting or massive numbers like Goons, PL or NC and i guess that is who is Angelica Everstar referring to. But i might be totally wrong because i'm not privy to insider information.
There could be few individuals who could do this. I was astounded when I saw bids for super rare ships...People threw trillions of ISK like they were spare cash. However I saw someone mention CCP might ban people for massive manipulations of PLEX and they just might fall into that category, so no wonder why they ain't doing it.
I used to think 10 trillion is a lot of ISK, but to some people it might not be. What's the point of going over 1T ISK is beyond me, when there are so many other things to be done...Interesting times, I wonder how far will the PLEX price go prior 2nd of June. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5771
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 17:43:36 -
[468] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:PLEX is being actively manipulated, there's buy orders appearing at 10m above the next lowest one, I've even seen 4x5 sets with a larger than 0.01 ISK price difference that were placed at the same time. You then just wait for people to outbid you by 0.01 and you don't need to do anything else. That's not necessarily manipulation. If people are looking to buy PLEX to use, often they'll set buy orders at high enough to put of cutting, and low enough to make a saving on sell orders. In addition, I have maxed standings on my PLEX trader, so I'll often make big changes in price to crush the margins to squeeze out traders without those standings. Again, that's not a manipulation of a price, simply the margins.
Ria Nieyli wrote:Another note about the Chinese server, their ships are about as twice as expensive as they are on our shard, if I do recall correctly. The equivalent PLEX price for Tranquility would be 1.5 billion per unit. The end is nearer than you think. What "End". If PLEX goes up in price, nothing ends. It's not some cataclysmic event. You talk about it as if it's a fact that high PLEX prices are a bad thing.
Ria Nieyli wrote:Additionally, for every person who wasn't injecting PLEX into the economy that will start doing so at higher prices, there's a person who doesn't need to buy as many to fund his ships. The supply will largely remain unchanged. It will drop way before the aforementioned price point too. At 900m p/u, people can buy a cheap T2 fit Vindicator with a single PLEX, whereas at 800m p/u, they need two. There are all sorts of price breakpoints like that along the way, that will gradually taper off supply as they are being hit. PLEX producers are a minority, and most of them are already established.
Now, let's spend a moment to talk about who actually uses PLEX. It's not, or you, or someone who wants to play for free. Can you guess who it is? That's right, it's alts! Nobody wants to pay for his second, or third or fourth account. Most people use cash for their main, however. Conversely, it's easier to stop subbing an alt than it is to stop subbing entirely if you were playing on a single account. People will shed those alts as they go. At this point, panic selling would begin as sell orders stop getting bought. It will be hilarious. Prices would have to hit way above 5b before it would stop being worth it for most cash making alts, and what you forget is that as prices rise so does income. Back when PLEX was 200m, it was a lot harder to get 200m than it is now. There's also a lot more uses for PLEX than just alts, and those uses will undoubtedly continue to grow.
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
33884
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 18:24:41 -
[469] - Quote
Please tell me how you make upwards of 5b with your link alt, for example.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5772
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 19:15:31 -
[470] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Please tell me how you make upwards of 5b with your link alt, for example. Or cyno alt. That's the majority of alts, characters like these. Those are support characters. If you create an account and only have support characters on it, you're doing EVE wrong.
Ria Nieyli wrote:Seriously, your post is dumb as bricks. When you squeeze the margin, you squeeze from both ends, otherwise the other sellers would just post higher sell orders, achieving an upwards trend in price. Oops, nevermind? Lol? And yours isn't? You're talking about rising PLEX price like it's the end of EVE and CCP if it goes much higher. It's not though, you're simply butthurt that PLEX is higher than you'd like. Get over it.
And when you trade PLEX, you tend to squeeze margins from the bottom, it tends to work better that way as people are more likely to cut your sell price to release capital even if they take a small loss. Overall price doesn't really change from it, and it's certainly not manipulation in the classic sense, since you're not striving (or succeeding) to drive the price.
Ria Nieyli wrote:Five billion, cite a source. China has theirs at 3, with the other stuff costing about 2x as much as on our shard. Guess what, 1.5b is less than double the price and you're talking about it increasing over five times? I'm not talking about it gettin that high, I'm simply stating that it wouldn't be the end of the world if it did. That would be about the limit of achievable with the current economy. But if it were to rise that high, the rest of the economy would rise with it, higher income would be more achievable, just like it always has.
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
33885
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 19:35:33 -
[471] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Those are support characters. If you create an account and only have support characters on it, you're doing EVE wrong.
So, if I have an account with three cyno alts that are positioned in different systems for maximum utility. I guess I could recycle one of them into a dedicated scanner alt and sell it every X months to recoup some of the costs, but that's hardly 5b/mo. Or I could just make a money-making alt on it and run Incursions for some risk-free moolah. Of course, that would mean that I'd need an additional account, but I can make an incursion alt on it too. And the offgrid booster on the other account? Make an incursion alt! At this point, it starts to feel like a second job, but at least I wouldn't need an incursion alt for my super alt account, because I can just rat with my super! OY VEY why don't I just multibox incursions?
Lucas Kell wrote:Lol? And yours isn't? You're talking about rising PLEX price like it's the end of EVE and CCP if it goes much higher. It's not though, you're simply butthurt that PLEX is higher than you'd like. Get over it.
Yes, I'm 105% butthurt because YOU disagree with ME.
Lucas Kell wrote:And when you trade PLEX, you tend to squeeze margins from the bottom, it tends to work better that way as people are more likely to cut your sell price to release capital even if they take a small loss. Overall price doesn't really change from it, and it's certainly not manipulation in the classic sense, since you're not striving (or succeeding) to drive the price.
Bullshit, demand exceeds supply for PLEX, so there's no reason to release capital and take a loss. Well, unless prices going up by 50m in a day is a natural occurence to you, and need I remind you of the 1b spike a while back?
Lucas Kell wrote:I'm not talking about it gettin that high, I'm simply stating that it wouldn't be the end of the world if it did. That would be about the limit of achievable with the current economy. But if it were to rise that high, the rest of the economy would rise with it, higher income would be more achievable, just like it always has.
How would rising PLEX prices upturn the economy exactly? Last time I checked PLEX doesn't inject ISK into the economy. PLEX pricing is disjointed from the rest of the economy. Prices for everything else have been going down the last few months. Well, everything except rare collectibles, that is, but they're a special case unto themselves.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5773
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 00:26:10 -
[472] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:So, if I have an account with three cyno alts that are positioned in different systems for maximum utility. Then you are doing it wrong. Most people looking to pay for their accounts by PLEX will have at least one money making alt on each account, and passive income on as many characters as possible. I tend to train mine as traders and periodically dump a mass of goods for them to sell in their region which ticks income in pretty well, in addition to PI. Then each account has an active character, again usually a trader but much more heavily controlled.
Ria Nieyli wrote:Yes, I'm 105% butthurt because YOU disagree with ME. It's nothing to do with me, you obviously have a problem with the idea of PLEX prices which is leading to you making extreme predictions about the death of the economy and CCP.
Ria Nieyli wrote:Bullshit, demand exceeds supply for PLEX, so there's no reason to release capital and take a loss. Well, unless prices going up by 50m in a day is a natural occurence to you, and need I remind you of the 1b spike a while back? Of course there's a reason, not everyone wants to sit on the PLEX and the prices don't always move as quickly as they have right now. If someone who can consistently crush your margins is doing so, you may choose to simply move your isk to more profitable ventures. The 1b spike was market manipulation, guaranteed.
Ria Nieyli wrote:How would rising PLEX prices upturn the economy exactly? Last time I checked PLEX doesn't inject ISK into the economy. PLEX pricing is disjointed from the rest of the economy. Prices for everything else have been going down the last few months. Well, everything except rare collectibles, that is, but they're a special case unto themselves. No, but both the income streams and PLEX prices go up over time. Are you claiming that income hasn't increase since the days of 200m/PLEX? Prices for goods may go down, but achievable income will tend to increase.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
242
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 00:49:14 -
[473] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Lucas pls.
TAUTX: Private Bank & Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
[TAUTX: Weekly Lotteries][3]
[TAUTX: 3rd Party Services][4]
|
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
5066
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 00:54:51 -
[474] - Quote
Comparing our prices (where ratting bots are hunted down by GMs with at least moderate effectiveness) to the Chinese server (where the GMs turn a blind eye to ratting bots) tells you nothing.
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
|
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
5066
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 00:58:33 -
[475] - Quote
Also as for seriously manipulating the PLEX market - it's not really doable. There's a bit under a trillion ISK worth of PLEX in Jita on the market now which probably a hundred individuals in game have enough ISK to buy out entirely. But there's a lot more in hangars.
There is more wealth in PLEX on the market in Jita than there is in the seven minerals combined.
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
|
Vibiana
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 09:13:55 -
[476] - Quote
Well, I don't believe (and I don't see the volume) in massive demand on NEW 1 bil worth frig/dessie/cruiser skins. So there are no substantial reasons for current market trend, except EvE most common type of speculation "buy out and see what happens next" |
Shakuul
Infinitus Sapientia
11
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 17:10:12 -
[477] - Quote
Koniforous wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Koniforous wrote: Occasionally, however, the short in supply due to demand is driven by speculative investors, and that is not healthy for the economy, nor for ccp as a business.
Make sure and phone BP and Exxon-Mobil to inform them that speculators are bad for business. Give us a detailed write-up of how long they spend laughing at you. I never said they were bad for business, I said bad for the economy. More specifically, I said when demand driven price increase is caused primarily by investors it is bad for the economy. The housing bubble and its collapse is one such example. I guess I did! But that was intended differently....
Real economic collapses are bad for a number of reasons: they create income problems, cash flow problems, and increase search costs as huge numbers of people lost their jobs and homes.
The health of the EVE "economy" is really determined by player activity, so PLEX speculation is only bad if it gets players to quit. In the long run, I don't know if that's the case. As a new player, if I can buy everything I need by selling a single PLEX the game looks a lot more appealing than if it takes 3 PLEX to get what I want.
Speculators are a good thing because they translate information about the future into prices today leading to more efficient pricing. If zydrine was going to be worth 1300 post patch, speculators help get it there so people make the correct purchase decisions and manufacturing choices. It would be wasteful to use a bunch of zydrine making T1 guns at 5% margins if the zydrine you bought for 400 per unit is going to be worth 1300 per unit in a few months. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2913
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 06:12:27 -
[478] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:CCP doesn't directly manage the Chinese server, though. CCP earns more cold, hard cash per PLEX used than if that person were to subscribe through a credit card. Especially when you consider the discounts they give for buying multiple months at the same time. If you take into account that economics stats that CCP released show that EVE's economy is deflationary, the only conclusion is that PLEX is currently massively overpriced due to upwards manipulation. The question is, where will CCP draw the line, since it's directly tied to their profit as a company. But why would they draw a line? If anything, they want prices to be higher, as someone is more likely to buy an extra PLEX to sell for 3b isk than they are to sell one for 800m. I honestly don't think CCP will ever intervene beyond what they currently do, which is to slow down rapid spikes and falls in price, which they purely do to keep the economy from crashing. There's a bit of truth though to the manipulation in that a large number of PLEX are held by traders and a lot are actively traded, but the primary driver for the continuous uptick in price is what people are willing to pay for purchase and consumption. As it stands PLEX are actually pretty cheap. You can PLEX an account with a highsec miner playing semi-AFK for 2.5 hours a day can PLEX every month. That's one of the lowest forms of income, and you can still PLEX an account in a relatively small amount of playtime. I think it will be a long time before PLEX hits any form of ceiling.
The problem here Lucas is that a 3 billion PLEX price is sustained by the massive botting that goes on in Serenity and keeping in mind that there are even fewer players on Serenity. Surely you are not suggesting botting be allowed.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Anthar Thebess
1019
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 07:28:52 -
[479] - Quote
On Chinese server you can officially BOT, this is even enforced by some of the groups. When i see upcoming changers it is big possibility that plex prices can drop, as people will be more willing to sell plexes to get citadel under their banner.
I think that limiting thing , blocking most of the players from starting to play in this game is initial "fun lag". Observed this more than once: 1. New player logins 2. SPACESHIPS SPACESHIPS 3. Where to get isk - oh this is some way to do it. 4. I cannot fly this , and last 2 weeks of skill points i invested in worthless stuff 5. F%%%C this game i will no longer wait to have some fun
Why this is important for plex prices? Many new players buy initially few plexes to fund them self basic ships.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
|
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
596
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 16:41:02 -
[480] - Quote
Figured this could do with a bump .
.
|
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
138
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 02:32:52 -
[481] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Figured this could do with a bump .
Rising plex prices can be directly attributed to the lack of new players entering and staying in the game. Which overall is a negative thing for plex and for the game as a whole.
New players fund their lack of skills with isk bought bling, said players aren't coming to eve and aren't staying even if they did. Look at the new player creation numbers and total average online players. We have lost 30% of the new player creation in the last 6 months alone even with power of 2, buddy plex and plex for reinvites galore.
So yes, Plex is up... Eve is down, for all of us. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2994
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 21:40:14 -
[482] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote:Figured this could do with a bump . Rising plex prices can be directly attributed to the lack of new players entering and staying in the game. Which overall is a negative thing for plex and for the game as a whole. New players fund their lack of skills with isk bought bling, said players aren't coming to eve and aren't staying even if they did. Look at the new player creation numbers and total average online players. We have lost 30% of the new player creation in the last 6 months alone even with power of 2, buddy plex and plex for reinvites galore. So yes, Plex is up... Eve is down, for all of us.
Yes...that could be an explanation....of several. Another is the amount of ISK entering the game economy as well.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Makhpella
Bad Taste.
36
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 10:30:00 -
[483] - Quote
https://youtu.be/5BmEGm-mraE play while trading your plex
1b this week? Is CCP going to save the miner?
|
lolcorpholder alt
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
81
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 16:03:13 -
[484] - Quote
449 plex went poof in the course of couple weeks
These prices might be here for a while
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
236
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 18:29:25 -
[485] - Quote
lolcorpholder alt wrote:449 plex went poof in the course of couple weeks
These prices might be here for a while
There is 12 Trillion isk worth of plex buy orders up and ridiculous low prices.
Some people got real smart and have realized that when the big boys get out, there wont be enough buy orders to cover the thousands of stored plex. Some day, someone is going to actually cash in with those 20, 30mil plex buy orders... but when that happens the servers might be getting turned off lol.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3007
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 21:52:53 -
[486] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:lolcorpholder alt wrote:449 plex went poof in the course of couple weeks
These prices might be here for a while
There is 12 Trillion isk worth of plex buy orders up and ridiculous low prices. Some people got real smart and have realized that when the big boys get out, there wont be enough buy orders to cover the thousands of stored plex. Some day, someone is going to actually cash in with those 20, 30mil plex buy orders... but when that happens the servers might be getting turned off lol.
So the price will come down. v0v
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
SFR SaFeRa
DBD RELOADED Against ALL Authorities
8
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 10:00:41 -
[487] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:
Even if PLEX prices would halve or more, the worst thing that is happening is that I have a bunch of PLEX stored to pay for my accounts for about a year.
If this is how you think, you should not be market trading. |
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
15
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 18:56:25 -
[488] - Quote
One way CCP can reduce the price of plexes is by making the servers only allow one account for one computer. I doubt the majority of the player base can afford 7 accounts along with 7 different machines running and then the money lost on the maintenance needs of such a set up.
Although, I feel like I'm the only one with the opinion that there shouldn't be alt accounts. I feel that both CCP and the player base is against this. I had to put my two cents in anyways because I can and felt like it. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3013
|
Posted - 2015.06.20 05:47:39 -
[489] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:One way CCP can reduce the price of plexes is by making the servers only allow one account for one computer. I doubt the majority of the player base can afford 7 accounts along with 7 different machines running and then the money lost on the maintenance needs of such a set up.
Although, I feel like I'm the only one with the opinion that there shouldn't be alt accounts. I feel that both CCP and the player base is against this. I had to put my two cents in anyways because I can and felt like it.
Why? Why should CCP care what the price of a PLEX is? I find this kind of logic mind boggling. On one hand people will go on and on about how CCP just doesn't intervene in the game (much) but when it comes to PLEX why CCP MUST intervene!!!!
What happened to PvP--i.e. letting supply and demand set the price. You guys are talking out of both sides of your mouth, IMO.
The above is a solution looking for an answer....which is most likely that the poster wants to PLEX his account but is annoyed that the price is so high. Oh well, suck it up.
Oh and, obligatory....can I has your stuff?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
873
|
Posted - 2015.06.20 06:12:07 -
[490] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:One way CCP can reduce the price of plexes is by making the servers only allow one account for one computer. I doubt the majority of the player base can afford 7 accounts along with 7 different machines running and then the money lost on the maintenance needs of such a set up.
Although, I feel like I'm the only one with the opinion that there shouldn't be alt accounts. I feel that both CCP and the player base is against this. I had to put my two cents in anyways because I can and felt like it. An interesting suggestion, which I'd like to respond to in detail.
First off, I would like to make it clear that I am in the opposing school of thought. I'll give you a little background about me so that you can understand where I am coming from and maybe get a little insight into someone who plays the game differently to you.
I like alts, I have lots of them, I always have had lots of them and I doubt I would play EVE at all if I could not continue to have lots of them. For me, EVE is an RTS or party-based RPG game, and I use my alt army as a team to achieve my goals. This makes the game interesting for me and helps compensate for many of the game's shortcomings in depth, engagement and useability.
I will take this opportunity to point out that I have never used ISBOXER or any similar tool. I started out using one PC with one screen, alt-tabbing between clients. I moved to dual screens. Then two PCs with four screens. Then three PCs with six screens. Throughout this period I was using a separate keyboard and mouse for each PC.
I then discovered the Microsoft Garage tool, "Mouse Without Borders" and was able to replace three keyboards and mice on my desk with only one. The single set of input devices could be used to control all three PCs, as if they were one PC with a massive desktop, no input multipexing was used and every click and keypress was made by me on each client separately. This allowed me to reduce the size of my desk a great deal, which was a godsend for my console collection which has been fighting my PC for space in my room for many years.
I then replaced all three PCs with one eight-core machine with three video cards, hosting six screens.
The largest number of accounts I have used effectively at once is 20. The largest number of accounts I've had subbed is somewhere in the mid-20s. I currently have only 8, because I've reduced my investment in EVE and reduced my playtime as a result of CCP's disastrous customer service performance and the draw of other games on my limited time.
I paid for all my accounts on my credit card for many, many years, long after I had enough ISK income to painlessly support them all on PLEX. I finally made the switch to PLEX supporting my entire account set after I retired from my career in IT and had to make some tough decisions about how I used my money going forward.
I feel that my play style is just as valid as your single account play style. I feel that each player should do what works for them, provided they remain within the rules. However, I do not believe that all players will respect the rules if there are ways to circumvent them.
If a one account limit was placed on the game, I would simply quit, along with many other players. However, many other serious multi-boxers who are not as rule abiding as I am would use software and networking tools to circumvent the one account limit and proceed as if nothing had changed. The people who would suffer most, other than CCP (from the lost income) would be those that just run two accounts on one PC. For extreme multi-boxers it would just be a minor bump in the road, but for casual multi-boxers it could ruin their game experience or force them in to rule-breaking behavior which may be the start of a slipperly slope.
For those that will read this massive tract of text and say: why don't you just play with other people. I'll point out that I do personally prefer to play with others, I have been or still am a prolific FC, a CEO of many player corps, an alliance leader, Alliance Tournament captain, I spent about three years flying with Pandemic Legion and many more years (I lose count) with HYDRA RELOADED and other PvP focused groups. I don't just (or indeed ever) sit with 20 hulks mining solo in some dead end 0.0 system farming to pay for my PLEX (not that there is anything wrong with that if you enjoy that kind of thing).
So TLDR:
1. A limit would not be enforceable, it would be trivial to circumvent for anyone who cares to. 2. You should not underestimate the lengths that some people will go to in order to play the game the way they want to. 3. It would be terrible for CCP to do this, from both a financial and customer service perspective. 4. The people most harmed would be the casual players.
Oh and pics or it didn't happen:
http://imgur.com/ZZVqvpi http://imgur.com/xlSJpc3 |
|
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
47
|
Posted - 2015.06.20 07:04:07 -
[491] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Joe Atei wrote:One way CCP can reduce the price of plexes is by making the servers only allow one account for one computer. I doubt the majority of the player base can afford 7 accounts along with 7 different machines running and then the money lost on the maintenance needs of such a set up.
Although, I feel like I'm the only one with the opinion that there shouldn't be alt accounts. I feel that both CCP and the player base is against this. I had to put my two cents in anyways because I can and felt like it. An interesting suggestion, which I'd like to respond to in detail. First off, I would like to make it clear that I am in the opposing school of thought. I'll give you a little background about me so that you can understand where I am coming from and maybe get a little insight into someone who plays the game differently to you. I like alts, I have lots of them, I always have had lots of them and I doubt I would play EVE at all if I could not continue to have lots of them. For me, EVE is an RTS or party-based RPG game, and I use my alt army as a team to achieve my goals. This makes the game interesting for me and helps compensate for many of the game's shortcomings in depth, engagement and useability. I will take this opportunity to point out that I have never used ISBOXER or any similar tool. I started out using one PC with one screen, alt-tabbing between clients. I moved to dual screens. Then two PCs with four screens. Then three PCs with six screens. Throughout this period I was using a separate keyboard and mouse for each PC. I then discovered the Microsoft Garage tool, "Mouse Without Borders" and was able to replace three keyboards and mice on my desk with only one. The single set of input devices could be used to control all three PCs, as if they were one PC with a massive desktop, no input multipexing was used and every click and keypress was made by me on each client separately. This allowed me to reduce the size of my desk a great deal, which was a godsend for my console collection which has been fighting my PC for space in my room for many years. I then replaced all three PCs with one eight-core machine with three video cards, hosting six screens. The largest number of accounts I have used effectively at once is 20. The largest number of accounts I've had subbed is somewhere in the mid-20s. I currently have only 8, because I've reduced my investment in EVE and reduced my playtime as a result of CCP's disastrous customer service performance and the draw of other games on my limited time. I paid for all my accounts on my credit card for many, many years, long after I had enough ISK income to painlessly support them all on PLEX. I finally made the switch to PLEX supporting my entire account set after I retired from my career in IT and had to make some tough decisions about how I used my money going forward. I feel that my play style is just as valid as your single account play style. I feel that each player should do what works for them, provided they remain within the rules. However, I do not believe that all players will respect the rules if there are ways to circumvent them. If a one account limit was placed on the game, I would simply quit, along with many other players. However, many other serious multi-boxers who are not as rule abiding as I am would use software and networking tools to circumvent the one account limit and proceed as if nothing had changed. The people who would suffer most, other than CCP (from the lost income) would be those that just run two accounts on one PC. For extreme multi-boxers it would just be a minor bump in the road, but for casual multi-boxers it could ruin their game experience or force them in to rule-breaking behavior which may be the start of a slipperly slope. For those that will read this massive tract of text and say: why don't you just play with other people. I'll point out that I do personally prefer to play with others, I have been or still am a prolific FC, a CEO of many player corps, an alliance leader, Alliance Tournament captain, I spent about three years flying with Pandemic Legion and many more years (I lose count) with HYDRA RELOADED and other PvP focused groups. I don't just (or indeed ever) sit with 20 hulks mining solo in some dead end 0.0 system farming to pay for my PLEX (not that there is anything wrong with that if you enjoy that kind of thing). So TLDR: 1. A limit would not be enforceable, it would be trivial to circumvent for anyone who cares to. 2. You should not underestimate the lengths that some people will go to in order to play the game the way they want to. 3. It would be terrible for CCP to do this, from both a financial and customer service perspective. 4. The people most harmed would be the casual players. Oh and pics or it didn't happen: http://imgur.com/ZZVqvpihttp://imgur.com/xlSJpc3
Is that actually a record player? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
873
|
Posted - 2015.06.20 07:09:04 -
[492] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Is that actually a record player? Of course it is.
|
flakeys
Arkham Innovations
2996
|
Posted - 2015.06.20 07:45:47 -
[493] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Joe Atei wrote:One way CCP can reduce the price of plexes is by making the servers only allow one account for one computer. I doubt the majority of the player base can afford 7 accounts along with 7 different machines running and then the money lost on the maintenance needs of such a set up.
Although, I feel like I'm the only one with the opinion that there shouldn't be alt accounts. I feel that both CCP and the player base is against this. I had to put my two cents in anyways because I can and felt like it. An interesting suggestion, which I'd like to respond to in detail. First off, I would like to make it clear that I am in the opposing school of thought. I'll give you a little background about me so that you can understand where I am coming from and maybe get a little insight into someone who plays the game differently to you. I like alts, I have lots of them, I always have had lots of them and I doubt I would play EVE at all if I could not continue to have lots of them. For me, EVE is an RTS or party-based RPG game, and I use my alt army as a team to achieve my goals. This makes the game interesting for me and helps compensate for many of the game's shortcomings in depth, engagement and useability. I will take this opportunity to point out that I have never used ISBOXER or any similar tool. I started out using one PC with one screen, alt-tabbing between clients. I moved to dual screens. Then two PCs with four screens. Then three PCs with six screens. Throughout this period I was using a separate keyboard and mouse for each PC. I then discovered the Microsoft Garage tool, "Mouse Without Borders" and was able to replace three keyboards and mice on my desk with only one. The single set of input devices could be used to control all three PCs, as if they were one PC with a massive desktop, no input multipexing was used and every click and keypress was made by me on each client separately. This allowed me to reduce the size of my desk a great deal, which was a godsend for my console collection which has been fighting my PC for space in my room for many years. I then replaced all three PCs with one eight-core machine with three video cards, hosting six screens. The largest number of accounts I have used effectively at once is 20. The largest number of accounts I've had subbed is somewhere in the mid-20s. I currently have only 8, because I've reduced my investment in EVE and reduced my playtime as a result of CCP's disastrous customer service performance and the draw of other games on my limited time. I paid for all my accounts on my credit card for many, many years, long after I had enough ISK income to painlessly support them all on PLEX. I finally made the switch to PLEX supporting my entire account set after I retired from my career in IT and had to make some tough decisions about how I used my money going forward. I feel that my play style is just as valid as your single account play style. I feel that each player should do what works for them, provided they remain within the rules. However, I do not believe that all players will respect the rules if there are ways to circumvent them. If a one account limit was placed on the game, I would simply quit, along with many other players. However, many other serious multi-boxers who are not as rule abiding as I am would use software and networking tools to circumvent the one account limit and proceed as if nothing had changed. The people who would suffer most, other than CCP (from the lost income) would be those that just run two accounts on one PC. For extreme multi-boxers it would just be a minor bump in the road, but for casual multi-boxers it could ruin their game experience or force them in to rule-breaking behavior which may be the start of a slipperly slope. For those that will read this massive tract of text and say: why don't you just play with other people. I'll point out that I do personally prefer to play with others, I have been or still am a prolific FC, a CEO of many player corps, an alliance leader, Alliance Tournament captain, I spent about three years flying with Pandemic Legion and many more years (I lose count) with HYDRA RELOADED and other PvP focused groups. I don't just (or indeed ever) sit with 20 hulks mining solo in some dead end 0.0 system farming to pay for my PLEX (not that there is anything wrong with that if you enjoy that kind of thing). So TLDR: 1. A limit would not be enforceable, it would be trivial to circumvent for anyone who cares to. 2. You should not underestimate the lengths that some people will go to in order to play the game the way they want to. 3. It would be terrible for CCP to do this, from both a financial and customer service perspective. 4. The people most harmed would be the casual players. Oh and pics or it didn't happen: http://imgur.com/ZZVqvpihttp://imgur.com/xlSJpc3 Is that actually a record player?
Stop making us feel old ... it's not funny .
Well BB , that is one awsome setup for sure .Max accounts i had was 5 if i recall right of wich 2 where purely research characters that would only log in once a month.I've never played with more then 2 accounts simultaniously and even that i rarely did.I loved the ability to use my alts but for me playing anything else then flakeys allays felt a bit meh so usually i only had him logged in.Flakeys acc is also the only one still active for the last year but then i rarely play anymore.If it wasn't for plex that i used to sub till somewhere 2021 i wouldn't even have this acc active.
To the guy asking for only one account per computer active , i think you underestimate the huge impact that will have on the game as a whole.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
874
|
Posted - 2015.06.20 07:53:53 -
[494] - Quote
flakeys wrote:If it wasn't for plex that i used to sub till somewhere 2021 i wouldn't even have this acc active. Well, at least I know you'll be around to keep me company for some time.
|
flakeys
Arkham Innovations
2996
|
Posted - 2015.06.20 07:59:50 -
[495] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:flakeys wrote:If it wasn't for plex that i used to sub till somewhere 2021 i wouldn't even have this acc active. Well, at least I know you'll be around to keep me company for some time.
Till someone put's out the lights mate , that is the plan .
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
875
|
Posted - 2015.06.20 08:06:23 -
[496] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:flakeys wrote:If it wasn't for plex that i used to sub till somewhere 2021 i wouldn't even have this acc active. Well, at least I know you'll be around to keep me company for some time. Till someone put's out the lights mate , that is the plan . That was always my plan to, but CCP does like to try my resolve... or maybe they're just trying to find the light switch?
Honestly though, there is no other game like EVE. Even EVE itself struggles to remain like EVE and is becoming less and less with each passing month. It's great to be able to look back on over a decade of playing a classic game and the massive player achievements that have occurred in that time (some of them I even participated in). I find it difficult to explain it to people who don't play EVE or only have a casual relationship with the game. |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations
2998
|
Posted - 2015.06.20 08:44:32 -
[497] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:flakeys wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:flakeys wrote:If it wasn't for plex that i used to sub till somewhere 2021 i wouldn't even have this acc active. Well, at least I know you'll be around to keep me company for some time. Till someone put's out the lights mate , that is the plan . That was always my plan to, but CCP does like to try my resolve... or maybe they're just trying to find the light switch? Honestly though, there is no other game like EVE. Even EVE itself struggles to remain like EVE and is becoming less and less with each passing month. It's great to be able to look back on over a decade of playing a classic game and the massive player achievements that have occurred in that time (some of them I even participated in). I find it difficult to explain it to people who don't play EVE or only have a casual relationship with the game.
Eve is the best and worst thing that could have happened to me in regards to gaming experience.I have been looking for something to spend as much time and passion into as eve for the past years and so far i have not found it.I doubt i'll ever find a game that can bring me what eve did for it's first years i played it.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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Asinar
The Hotdog
7
|
Posted - 2015.06.21 10:03:06 -
[498] - Quote
Here's my story.
I haven't payed for an account for a long time and I would never play EVE if I had to.
When I started, PLEX was about 300-350 mil. For 2 accounts that amounted to a week of missionrunning. Rest of the month I could do whatever I wanted. Interact will all of you guys, I was active in different type of Corps, wormhole, nullsec, missionrunning, helping new players.
Today, when a Plex costs 900+ mil that means I need almost 2 bil ISK every month to keep playing. And missionrunning hasn't gotten one bit more profitable. This means I spend more and more time missionrunning. Meaning, I interact with other players less and less. I've been soloing with 2 accounts for years now. I could rat in nullsec if I wanted to but it's not more profitable with 2 cloaky ships and people entering same system as I am in. Exploration is very much a hit and miss. Once have I gotten a module worth 800 mil. Once. I have been exploring, scanning down sites for probably years in total now. Mostly in lowsec. Exploration and Missionrunnign is the reason I have 2 accounts. It takes time to train and training 2 accounts is just more effective in this game, in every way.
My motivation to keep playing this game and grinding plexes goes down with increase in PLEX prices. And these new expeansions doesn't really change the game for me in any meaningful way. Last good expansion was Apocrypha, I believe. Wormholes, T3s. New modules are nice but it's a drop in the bucket. Gameplay really hasn't changed in years, not PVE. It's the same 2003-Formula.
Maybe this is a PVP game for you but it isn't for me. I play the way I want to. If my gamestyle doesn't fit your formula or pattern of how Eve should be played...I really don't care. Isn't that really the point of Eve?
Exploration "upgrade" with the hacking nodes stuff...doesn't really add anything. Just gets more annoying than it already was. And reward for hacking those containers is just a waste, I could earn more cash killing frigates in a belt..
|
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
602
|
Posted - 2015.06.21 10:29:36 -
[499] - Quote
Who wouldn't get bored of playing the same trivially difficult, repetitive, single-player game for 5+ years? You can say this is how you want to play all you want, but you know it's boring and quitting is on your mind, so why not try something else?
WTS BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
890
|
Posted - 2015.06.21 10:42:14 -
[500] - Quote
Asinar wrote:Here's my story. If you want a positive change in your circumstances, you are going to have to be willing to change them yourself.
It's no use hoping to forever cover PLEX costs while still doing the EVE equivalent of a minimum wage job.
While all play styles are valid, some simply don't pay the bills.
|
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u3pog
MagypuTe
466
|
Posted - 2015.06.21 11:46:14 -
[501] - Quote
Asinar, do like I did. I used to do missions and at some point I saw it isn't enough and it's very time consuming as you've said.
So? I tried doing something else, there are many ways to earn ISK in the game. And you know what? It worked! In just one year and something I was able to accumulate enough ISK to subscribe for the next 10 years! And I put a lot less effort into it, It just took some time to know what I am doing.
My only problem is that I don't want to stop now that my wallet is full. I want more and more :P And this is where alts come in...While making ISK with one account, you can freely do whatever you like with another.
The way I see It I won't stop playing even if PLEX goes up beyond 2-3 billion, maybe this will force me to stop any alts, but as long as I have ISK I will pay with it, because I don't have a lot of spare real money to spend. Yes, I remember when it used to be 300 mil, but there's no going back. |
RAW23
897
|
Posted - 2015.06.21 11:55:45 -
[502] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:Is that actually a record player? Of course it is.
And it's powered by a waterwheel.
_There are two types of EVE player: _
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
892
|
Posted - 2015.06.21 11:58:10 -
[503] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:Is that actually a record player? Of course it is. And it's powered by a waterwheel. Don't give me ideas.
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Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
49
|
Posted - 2015.06.21 22:46:30 -
[504] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:RAW23 wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:Is that actually a record player? Of course it is. And it's powered by a waterwheel. Don't give me ideas.
You might want to "nyx" that one... Last thing you'd want is to spring a leak with all those electronics. I'm so funny |
Tomb Ovaert
Freelance Entreprises LLC
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 13:26:22 -
[505] - Quote
The current price of PLEX appears to reflect the overall slump in activity in EVE Online, as, arguably, new-er players are reluctant to purchase said PLEX, or as can be gleaned from eve-offline.net, courtesy of Chribba, new-er player creation numbers themselves are back to 2009-ish levels, while demand is constant along with more stemming from the addition of Tech 2 SKINs.
As a representative of GankYou, I am going to be settling the PLEX price bet with Angelica Everstar next month. The conditions of the bet, I believe, were ten PLEX either way with the price target being seven hundred fifty million ISK across all major trade hubs by the start of the month of August.
He was adamant in honouring this - a Pirate's word, or so he said. |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
258
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 13:56:29 -
[506] - Quote
Koniforous wrote:Gank, where do you see plex prices at in December? Based on your graphing, and also in separate based on your intuition? I'm guessing this will be a temporary damper to the price rise and when its done plex will recover quickly to slightly below 900mil, and achieve ~1bil by December.
TAUTX: Private Bank & Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
|
Tomb Ovaert
Freelance Entreprises LLC
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 14:45:40 -
[507] - Quote
That was a very good call, Mr Koniforous.
Although, as has been mentioned in this thread, high PLEX prices are detrimental to overall activity in the EVE Universe. |
Makhpella
Bad Taste.
40
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 15:23:06 -
[508] - Quote
There are 787 units of plex on the entire eve market right now.
If you have 1T ISK lying in you wallet....
JUST DO IT!!! |
Angelica Everstar
238
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 17:15:15 -
[509] - Quote
Tomb Ovaert wrote:The current price of PLEX appears to reflect the overall slump in activity in EVE Online, as, arguably, new-er players are reluctant to purchase said PLEX, or as can be gleaned from eve-offline.net, courtesy of Chribba, new-er player creation numbers themselves are back to 2009-ish levels, while demand is constant along with more stemming from the addition of Tech 2 SKINs.
As a representative of GankYou, I am going to be settling the PLEX price bet with Angelica Everstar next month. The conditions of the bet, I believe, were ten PLEX either way with the price target being seven hundred fifty million ISK across all major trade hubs by the start of the month of August.
He was adamant in honouring this - a Pirate's word, or so he said.
I still firmly believe that the days of 750m per PLEX are LONG gone...
Or "this is just the beginning..."
§ Help support PLEX4GOOD
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE08 1.2 Trillion // Total : 3+ Trillon ISK
¢ Any bad spelling or grammar, is free of charge
@EveEntrepreneur
|
Alt Pilot1
Hysera Innovations
2
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 18:16:49 -
[510] - Quote
Here's what I think.
Player A - People sell PLEX because:
1. They only log in to PvP. So when they run out of ISK, they sell more PLEX to fund their PvP. However, the population is decreasing. Therefore the number of players doing this decreased.
2. They are relatively newer players using PLEX to fund their trading / industrial operations.
3. The number of Newborn Players has been decreasing. The population of Eve has been decreasing.
Player B - People buy PLEX because:
1. They are older players that already have the capability to generate ISK, and use PLEX to fund their second account, multiple character training, or whatever they choose to do with it.
2. They are older players with enough ISK to buy up and hold a boat load of PLEX for speculation.
3. There is "PLEX for Good" from time to time, which creates a PLEX sink when people donate.
In summary, Player B has a bigger market impact than Player A, that's why PLEX prices are going up. |
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Tomb Ovaert
Freelance Entreprises LLC
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 16:11:59 -
[511] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:I still firmly believe that the days of 750m per PLEX are LONG gone... Or "this is just the beginning..."
In the eye of the beholder, I'd say, as I personally view high PLEX prices detrimental to player count growth in EVE O. Then again, it might not be too bad, considering that incomes went up by several times: from FW LP to Incursions and Wormhole PvE. |
Angelica Everstar
239
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 17:58:53 -
[512] - Quote
I want to hereby confirm that I received 10 PLEX from Tomb Ovaert, on behalf of GankYou, to honor a stated bet regarding PLEX prices predictions.
§ Help support PLEX4GOOD
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE08 1.2 Trillion // Total : 3+ Trillon ISK
¢ Any bad spelling or grammar, is free of charge
@EveEntrepreneur
|
Pontryvel Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 18:04:57 -
[513] - Quote
If you invest in PLEx 7 years ago and plan on selling now, you'd get a profitable 200% return on top of the original capital investment.
(That is 300% including the investment.)
The above figures are in relation to in-game currency since there is no direct correlation to sell the PLEx for other currency. One possible conversion is to Aurum, however, Aurum also is an in-game currency.
The fact that one can purchase PLEx with other currencies only if from authorized CCP sources as per the rules does not mean the reverse is true.
You can plan that it will not be possible to sell PLEx for other currencies.
300% or 200% is better than transporting material effectives in ships risking to be destroyed even while protected by expensive escorts eating away potential billions of the cargo value per one way trips.
It is easily worth 400% to 500% more due to the potential risk + time and efforts consumptions costs. |
Tomb Ovaert
Freelance Entreprises LLC
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.03 11:23:42 -
[514] - Quote
Going that far back - http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=29668#history
Price then was around three hundred million ISK, which is around 17% Year on Year growth against today's prices. There are instruments that produce this much per week. |
Freelancer117
so you want to be a Hero
318
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 09:03:16 -
[515] - Quote
Let's compare Plex prices in isk for eve online, and Gem prices in gold for guild wars 2
http://www.gw2spidy.com/gem
http://i.imgur.com/ViLQ0TM.jpg
It must be due to the global mmorpg economy
Regards, a Freelancer
PS: also https://wowtoken.info
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
495
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 10:49:36 -
[516] - Quote
No, but both of these games have something in common... Quickly diminishing active player numbers.
Still think rising prices are a good thing? It is a direct result of new players not selling plex to vets, because the new players aren't staying.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Vince Nolen
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 13:40:33 -
[517] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:They are being very heavily manipulated both up and down but with the overwhelming trend being upwards. In a sense Bobby is right that they are undervalued, in that we obviously haven't yet hit the price beyond which supply will outstrip demand. On the other hand, from another perspective they are very much overpriced as 'plex producers' are willing to sell their product for much, much less. Without heavy manipulation the price would fall to something much nearer the lower levels that the people who create and sell plex would be willing to accept but the traders and medium to long term speculators have stepped into the gap to push prices towards the ceiling that demand will allow.
What I really like about the market at the moment is it's instability as this means margins are frequently opening and closing, making it a fun and dynamic market to watch on a daily basis.
I like that its this high it gave me the push I needed to Use Real life cash to buy Plex to sale on the market so far I invest over $200 dollars on them and Im very happy on my return.
I fund my accounts with RL money paying yrly for the discounts you get. so plex never intrest me never saw the value of the dollar vs isk on plex. now its worth it
I'm hoping it hits and passes over the billion mark to make worth buying plex in the long run |
Angelica Everstar
258
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 17:01:42 -
[518] - Quote
Vince Nolen wrote:I'm hoping it hits and passes over the billion mark to make worth buying plex in the long run
Trust me it will :D
"This is still just the begin..."
§ Help support PLEX4GOOD
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE08 1.2 Trillion // Total : 3+ Trillon ISK
¢ Any bad spelling or grammar, is free of charge
@EveEntrepreneur
|
Vince Nolen
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 05:10:55 -
[519] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:Vince Nolen wrote:I'm hoping it hits and passes over the billion mark to make worth buying plex in the long run Trust me it will :D "This is still just the begin..."
IT DID IT DID PASS A BIL IM SO HAPPY now if only ccp would give a discount on the plex lol |
Nalelmir Ahashion
Omegon 42nd Core
658
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 16:20:10 -
[520] - Quote
1b per plex.
I personally do not purchase those since they had price tag of 700m+, I find the fact of taking huge amounts of isk burnt on game time to suck the soul out of the gameplay.
If someone do not find the game enjoyable enough to pay the subscription he shouldn't play it, if someone does not have enough income to support playing eve with subscription he should really DON'T play eve or any other game and take care of his livelihood first.
I can see plex in current prices an investment if someone wish to train an alt on same account or something like that but to pay 1b+ of isk each month for a sub? hell no.
"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin"
- The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
|
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1015
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 07:04:31 -
[521] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Because PLEX are massively underpriced. ...and probably even more so, nine months later. |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
66
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 23:06:02 -
[522] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Because PLEX are massively underpriced. ...and probably even more so, nine months later.
Say it ain't so Bad Bobby! Where do you think they need to be to "fairly" priced?
On a side note, a while back I ended up with a dozen or so PLEX for 830ish. Soon after the price dropped below and it looked like I bought high. Turns out, I was a shrewd businessman. |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
66
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 23:08:02 -
[523] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Because PLEX are massively underpriced. ...and probably even more so, nine months later.
Say it ain't so Bad Bobby! Where do you think they need to be to "fairly" priced? I'm assuming they are now more underpriced because more money has entered the game?
On a side note, a while back I ended up with a dozen or so PLEX for 830ish. Soon after the price dropped below and it looked like I bought high. Turns out, I was a shrewd businessman. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1015
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 02:13:19 -
[524] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Because PLEX are massively underpriced. ...and probably even more so, nine months later. Say it ain't so Bad Bobby! Where do you think they need to be to "fairly" priced? Players who are in-game poor and/or inept mostly push the PLEX price down, as they tend to sell them rather than buy them.
Players who are in-game rich and capable mostly push the PLEX price up, as they tend to buy them (either for use or as an investment).
Once the bar for affording PLEX to sub an account rises to the level where a moderately established and capable player cannot afford them, then we have hit our price. We aren't even close to that point yet.
|
James Zealot
ALEHEADS Apocalypse Now.
20
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 03:31:41 -
[525] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Because PLEX are massively underpriced. ...and probably even more so, nine months later. Say it ain't so Bad Bobby! Where do you think they need to be to "fairly" priced? Players who are in-game poor and/or inept mostly push the PLEX price down, as they tend to sell them rather than buy them. Players who are in-game rich and capable mostly push the PLEX price up, as they tend to buy them (either for use or as an investment). Once the bar for affording PLEX to sub an account rises to the level where a moderately established and capable player cannot afford them, then we have hit our price. We aren't even close to that point yet.
I disagree with that last part. PLEX should not be billions. Then you get into $20 being billions and easy to get ISK, more so anyways. So that would really screw the economy. Oh man, I need 10 billion, that's just $40. No big deal. I think current prices are right about where it should be. |
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
843
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 04:12:41 -
[526] - Quote
James Zealot wrote: I disagree with that last part. PLEX should not be billions. Then you get into $20 being billions and easy to get ISK, more so anyways. So that would really screw the economy. Oh man, I need 10 billion, that's just $40. No big deal. I think current prices are right about where it should be.
How does transfering 10 billion isk between players 'screw' the economy? I'd imagine the taxes are pretty high, but not enough to unbalance anything.
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1015
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 04:35:39 -
[527] - Quote
James Zealot wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:Where do you think they need to be to "fairly" priced? Players who are in-game poor and/or inept mostly push the PLEX price down, as they tend to sell them rather than buy them. Players who are in-game rich and capable mostly push the PLEX price up, as they tend to buy them (either for use or as an investment). Once the bar for affording PLEX to sub an account rises to the level where a moderately established and capable player cannot afford them, then we have hit our price. We aren't even close to that point yet. I disagree with that last part. PLEX should not be billions. Then you get into $20 being billions and easy to get ISK, more so anyways. So that would really screw the economy. Oh man, I need 10 billion, that's just $40. No big deal. I think current prices are right about where it should be. It is already easy to get isk. You can play the game to make 1B easily or you can exchange a PLEX with someone who plays the game to get 1B easily.
The isk still gets made by someone playing the game, the isk still gets spent by someone playing the game and the PLEX subscription option allows more people to play the game. All of that gameplay is good for EVE and good for the economy.
If there is something wrong, it's with the balance of sinks and faucets. CCP need to use the new structures and new sov mechanics to soak up more isk from the system. |
James Zealot
ALEHEADS Apocalypse Now.
20
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 04:58:37 -
[528] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:James Zealot wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:Where do you think they need to be to "fairly" priced? Players who are in-game poor and/or inept mostly push the PLEX price down, as they tend to sell them rather than buy them. Players who are in-game rich and capable mostly push the PLEX price up, as they tend to buy them (either for use or as an investment). Once the bar for affording PLEX to sub an account rises to the level where a moderately established and capable player cannot afford them, then we have hit our price. We aren't even close to that point yet. I disagree with that last part. PLEX should not be billions. Then you get into $20 being billions and easy to get ISK, more so anyways. So that would really screw the economy. Oh man, I need 10 billion, that's just $40. No big deal. I think current prices are right about where it should be. It is already easy to get isk. You can play the game to make 1B easily or you can exchange a PLEX with someone who plays the game to get 1B easily. The isk still gets made by someone playing the game, the isk still gets spent by someone playing the game and the PLEX subscription option allows more people to play the game. All of that gameplay is good for EVE and good for the economy. If there is something wrong, it's with the balance of sinks and faucets. CCP need to use the new structures and new sov mechanics to soak up more isk from the system.
You must be space rich? :P It's not that easy for most to make billions. Most of the time, it's time that's the enemy. I know of quite a few ways to make multiple billions in a month, but only if I had tons of time. Sure you can do market trading, "passive" in some ways, but you have to spend the time researching the items to sell. Lots to consider. Anyways, so sure someone pays for that PLEX the guy just bought for $20, but the more that $20 is worth the more someone is enticed to pay for more isk. Good for CCP sure, but then the market will be more saturated. At least thats how I'm thinking of it right this second. I'm not sure what you believe fair price is, maybe it's not above 2billion. Maybe 1.5b is a good price. Still, I like to use my limited time a week to make enough to sub my accounts. It gets harder as PLEX price goes up lol
I think it's mainly just the market moguls that are worried about prices so much. The ones will billions invested that want their investment to keep growing. Has nothing to do with anything else other than profits really. Just another thought I have right this second. Might not be there when I click post :P |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1015
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 06:03:27 -
[529] - Quote
James Zealot wrote:You must be space rich? :P It's not that easy for most to make billions. If you don't know how, you can learn.
If you are unwilling or unable to invest the time and effort required and still expect to be able to afford PLEX when so many other players are willing and able to put in that time and effort, then you are just expecting too much.
James Zealot wrote:Most of the time, it's time that's the enemy. I know of quite a few ways to make multiple billions in a month, but only if I had tons of time. Sure you can do market trading, "passive" in some ways, but you have to spend the time researching the items to sell. Lots to consider. Yes. Everyone has the option of exchanging lots of time and effort for isk, through grinding whatever profession they choose. But if they choose a poorly paying profession they have to accept the inefficient conversion of time/effort to isk that comes with that.
You also have the option of investing some of your time, effort and isk in carrying out the research, planning and investment needed to enter a better paying profession and gain a more efficient conversion rate. It is generally the failure to do this that traps EVE players in wage slavery, where they spend more time grinding for isk than enjoying the game. It's a poor choice that so many people make.
James Zealot wrote:Anyways, so sure someone pays for that PLEX the guy just bought for $20, but the more that $20 is worth the more someone is enticed to pay for more isk. Good for CCP sure, but then the market will be more saturated. If you are saying the market will become more saturated with PLEX, then I don't see that as a problem since the market would correct and PLEX prices would drop.
If you are saying the market will become more saturated with ISK, then no, because the ISK is just passing between players. It doesn't get created by the PLEX trade, only consumed by taxes. The market is already saturated with ISK and CCP needs to deal with that separately. It's not an issue with PLEX, but a separate issue that contributes to rising PLEX prices.
James Zealot wrote:I'm not sure what you believe fair price is, maybe it's not above 2billion. Maybe 1.5b is a good price. No one person gets to make that determination. Instead it takes all of us, pulling and pushing at the market, to decide what price it should be at. The fact that PLEX price has been trending upwards since it's introduction tells us a lot here.
I could personally cope with PLEX at 3B or so, more than that and I would have to look at further improving the efficiency of my isk making. I expect the point where the moderately established and moderately capable players cap out would be lower than that, but I'm only guessing. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1015
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 06:04:13 -
[530] - Quote
James Zealot wrote:Still, I like to use my limited time a week to make enough to sub my accounts. It gets harder as PLEX price goes up lol So, you have chosen to play the game in an inefficient way. If you are happy doing it that way, then great. If you aren't, then you should change.
James Zealot wrote:I think it's mainly just the market moguls that are worried about prices so much. The market moguls are generally rich enough that PLEX price isn't a concern for their subscription. But of course, if they use PLEX as an investment they'll be plenty concerned about the price.
I think it's the people who grind to feed their accounts that are most concerned about the PLEX price, because their survival is endangered by it. |
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1015
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 06:34:14 -
[531] - Quote
CCP has provided us with so many options for making isk.
Each account can host three characters and each character can host:
305 market orders 11 manufacturing jobs 11 science jobs 21 personal contracts 60 corporation contracts (and even more contracts to corporation members) 6 command centers for PI 6 R&D agents for datacores
On top of that, you can run as many of the following as you can handle:
Moon mining POSes Reaction POSes Syphons on other peoples moon mining and reaction POSes Customs offices Forum posts that generate isk by various means (shops, services and scams)
All this before you consider fully active grinding with one character on the account doing PvE or whatever.
So with all that at your disposal, if you can't make bags of isk each month then you have to be doing something wrong. You have options to choose from regardless of whether you lack SP or isk. You just need to invest some time and effort in finding something that works within your limitations. If you can't afford that time and effort, minimal as it may be, then you can't really expect riches. |
James Zealot
ALEHEADS Apocalypse Now.
20
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 06:51:33 -
[532] - Quote
Well said on all counts. I'm not "smart" like you with all the eve isk making opportunities. You can't just jump into eve and start making billions without someone showing you how that has been doing it for a long while. The ideas are simple, actually accomplishing them take a lot more effort/time.
Market trading and incursions come to mind for great opportunities. Incursions can take some isk to get started but are pretty good for isk making. Market trading can be very lucrative, but again, takes a lot of time to find the right items. There are many other ways, just like you said, but takes countless hours to plan for and setup. It's not THAT easy lol.
I was talking about saturation of PLEX not isk. Either way, I figured you were thinking around the 3 to 5bil mark for PLEX. That's about all I have for this forum topic :P Love the conversations here though. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1016
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 07:36:46 -
[533] - Quote
James Zealot wrote:I'm not "smart" like you with all the eve isk making opportunities. I don't doubt that I have some advantages over you.
I've been playing the game seriously and continuously since 2005, less so before that. I have lots of characters, SP, isk, assets and friends. It is my nature to seek out knowledge from wherever and whoever I can get it. I appear to be better than average at linking different pieces of knowledge together to come up with an effective plan.
On the flip side, I suffer from dyscalculia, so I have a hard time dealing with numbers, arithmetic and related things. I'm obsessive compulsive, so I routinely make sub-optimal decisions due to the need to have things neat, ordered, symmetrical and predictable. I live a fairly frugal existence in real life and could not justify the cost of EVE subscriptions if PLEX wasn't an option. I therefore have to accept the burden of PLEX cost regardless of how high it goes, because I have no real alternative.
So for me, as with everyone, the trick is in finding ways to make isk while working within my personal limitations.
James Zealot wrote:You can't just jump into eve and start making billions without someone showing you how that has been doing it for a long while. But with all the forums, wikis, videos, streams, guides, channels, tools and amazingly knowledgeable and helpful people in the EVE community, that is more or less available to anyone.
James Zealot wrote:Market trading and incursions come to mind for great opportunities. Both can be lucrative, but work best if you have money and time to put in to them.
If I were in your position, I'd be looking at things that require only a little isk and time to set up and provide a semi-passive income thereafter. Time spent on things like that reward you for your entire EVE career (unless CCP nerfs them) and offer good isk/hour once all things are considered. But most importantly, these are not things you have to do instead of your regular carebearing, but can be done in addition to it. |
James Zealot
ALEHEADS Apocalypse Now.
20
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 14:44:03 -
[534] - Quote
I appreciate your detailed and personal responses. I actually have around 20 something billion in assets and liquid ISK. It's there and I have been researching :-p I like pvp as well. I will probably be messaging you soon honestly. Thanks again for the responses. |
Johnathan Coffey
Niforce Triggers
31
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 16:59:24 -
[535] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:CCP has provided us with so many options for making isk.
Each account can host three characters and each character can host:
305 market orders 11 manufacturing jobs 11 science jobs 21 personal contracts 60 corporation contracts (and even more contracts to corporation members) 6 command centers for PI 6 R&D agents for datacores
On top of that, you can run as many of the following as you can handle:
Moon mining POSes Reaction POSes Syphons on other peoples moon mining and reaction POSes Customs offices Forum posts that generate isk by various means (shops, services and scams)
All this before you consider fully active grinding with one character on the account doing PvE or whatever.
So with all that at your disposal, if you can't make bags of isk each month then you have to be doing something wrong. You have options to choose from regardless of whether you lack SP or isk. You just need to invest some time and effort in finding something that works within your limitations. If you can't afford that time and effort, minimal as it may be, then you can't really expect riches. Just chiming in to point out that some of the things you named (R&D and PI in particular) are passive in name only. Once you calculate the time you need to keep them running and derive the effective ISK/hr, you will be surprised to learn that they barely pay any better than something as simple as running missions (albeit with smaller opportunity cost).
First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING.
|
u3pog
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
667
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 22:37:42 -
[536] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:CCP has provided us with so many options for making isk.
Each account can host three characters and each character can host:
305 market orders 11 manufacturing jobs 11 science jobs 21 personal contracts 60 corporation contracts (and even more contracts to corporation members) 6 command centers for PI 6 R&D agents for datacores
On top of that, you can run as many of the following as you can handle:
Moon mining POSes Reaction POSes Syphons on other peoples moon mining and reaction POSes Customs offices Forum posts that generate isk by various means (shops, services and scams)
All this before you consider fully active grinding with one character on the account doing PvE or whatever.
So with all that at your disposal, if you can't make bags of isk each month then you have to be doing something wrong. You have options to choose from regardless of whether you lack SP or isk. You just need to invest some time and effort in finding something that works within your limitations. If you can't afford that time and effort, minimal as it may be, then you can't really expect riches.
Couldn't have said it better. You are my EVE Jesus. Now I know why some people have 20-30 alts...They must have found the right formulae.
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1022
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 03:36:56 -
[537] - Quote
Johnathan Coffey wrote:Just chiming in to point out that some of the things you named (R&D and PI in particular) are passive in name only. It wasn't supposed to be a list of passive income streams, but a list of resources each character has available to generate isk.
I agree with you on R&D agents, as they are terrible now. If you haven't already got them going, I wouldn't bother setting them up. If you have got them going, cash them in as infrequently as you can to improve your effective isk/hour.
PI depends on how you do it. Factory planets with no extraction require little effort to maintain, you just need to visit the POCO regularly to feed in fresh inputs and take away your product. It's similar to running POS reactions. Whereas more mainstream PI is a bit of a grind, as you say. |
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 08:36:22 -
[538] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:CCP has provided us with so many options for making isk.
Each account can host three characters and each character can host:
305 market orders ...
On top of that, you can run as many of the following as you can handle:
Moon mining POSes ... Forum posts that generate isk by various means (shops, services and scams)
All this before you consider fully active ...
So with all that at your disposal, if you can't make bags of isk each month then you have to be doing something wrong. ... Thank you for the listing of those opportunities, in theory. However, I disagree with your statement about having to be doing something wrong. There are cases where the person has wrong done to him which may lead him to lose more than to win or earn. To blame it on them only agravates the loss and those supporting it are making money from it.
Bad Bobby wrote:...You just need to invest some time and effort in finding something that works within your limitations. If you can't afford that time and effort, minimal as it may be, then you can't really expect riches. I agree with the first part that finding something that works within your limitations is the solution. (However finding those limitation can be a different ball-park.)
I disagree with the second part that you can't expect riches (or even to make profit). Character Bazaar requires time and efforts yes, but not so much ingame time as other activities do take time. It is pretty close to minimal. Besides, there is little to stop a player to be given 10 billion except the proverbial foot in the mouth while shooting oneself in the foot. (Gotta love those russian roulette players, no , not the Vegas roulette.) If you are offered 10 billion ISK and say you don't want to get paid , you deserve suffering. (Except illegal transfer.)
For instance, using the EVE forums on a 512 MB Ram device is bad enough, that it's worth the time to buy a new phone with cam to record the posting.
Edit: Plex Price will be 1.1 b ISK to 1.2b ISK in 7 days + until around October (for 10% to 20% + increase). |
Tiffen Jouhinen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 08:53:46 -
[539] - Quote
Not surprised at all on why plex price went up.
The only thing that comes to mind is how people were angry at me ...last year... for speculating that plex price is gonna go up.
They were rambling they have many alts and they played eve online by buying plex in the market...not by subscription based because they can't afford to pay $9.99 / month. Can't imagine the electricity bill to pay for this. Must be more than $9.99 / month.
*shrugs* meh |
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 09:01:48 -
[540] - Quote
Tiffen Jouhinen wrote:Not surprised at all ...
... because they can't afford to pay $9.99 / month. Can't imagine the electricity bill to pay for this. Must be more than $9.99 / month.
*shrugs* meh Considering some PLEx Specials offer by CCP occurs on a few accounts at $9.99 or $13 or $29 for 2 PLEx. You have to include your finite dollars and pay before the offer expires.
As for electricity , get a solar panel or a bike with energy convertor / generator battery charger (if your food bill is worthwhile).
(This does not include a $60 cab fare to avoid being late for work due to PvP delays... Or diversions) |
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1022
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 11:52:17 -
[541] - Quote
Now, back on topic...
Look at that PLEX price go!
(1,040M Sell / 1,025M Buy in Jita atm) |
u3pog
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
667
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 15:01:44 -
[542] - Quote
Currently less than 250 PLEX left in Jita...Sellers are waiting for higher prices or simply low supply? |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
506
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 16:59:06 -
[543] - Quote
u3pog wrote:Currently less than 250 PLEX left in Jita...Sellers are waiting for higher prices or simply low supply?
Who would spend real life money on a game that has shrinking numbers, less opportunities and less need for more expensive ships?
1) Players are unsubbing 2) Capitals are now more of a burden than before 3) Deflation is starting to become a problem in all other markets (See Pith and T3 prices) 4) New player numbers dropping (they tend to sell plex on the market to vets) 5) Lack of new players means a huge isk sink is gone (Skillbooks) 6) Game is losing its focus and fun for many, which means more PLEX and less SUB
Problem with a shrinking player count, shrinking opportunities and lower entertainment value means people won't spend cash on this game, whether that is cash for pay to win (PLEX) or cash for subs (Play with Plex)
As a result, Plex has no limit, this is hugely bad for the game.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
u3pog
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
667
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 20:50:21 -
[544] - Quote
1110m and counting! New records, at that rate we could reach 1.5 billion tomorrow... |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
66
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 21:16:23 -
[545] - Quote
I'm surprised by the roughly 100 million pop of the last couple days |
Gudrun die Gute
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 21:30:51 -
[546] - Quote
A dozen of new Skins almost every week since various months is for sure another pusher for the Plex price. |
Painkill3r
Perkone Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 21:33:28 -
[547] - Quote
Gadolf Agalder wrote:Tiffen Jouhinen wrote:Not surprised at all ...
... because they can't afford to pay $9.99 / month. Can't imagine the electricity bill to pay for this. Must be more than $9.99 / month.
*shrugs* meh Considering some PLEx Specials offer by CCP occurs on a few accounts at $9.99 or $13 or $29 for 2 PLEx. You have to include your finite dollars and pay before the offer expires. As for electricity , get a solar panel or a bike with energy convertor / generator battery charger (if your food bill is worthwhile). (This does not include a $60 cab fare to avoid being late for work due to PvP delays... Or diversions)
Xenuria pls go. |
Painkill3r
Perkone Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 21:36:28 -
[548] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Your stuff, sir? |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
510
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 21:39:27 -
[549] - Quote
Painkill3r wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: Your stuff, sir?
No, it goes to a charity of choice when my pre-paid sub runs out
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Painkill3r
Perkone Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 22:37:13 -
[550] - Quote
Did I mention my starving children in Nigeria? |
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
510
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 22:39:27 -
[551] - Quote
Painkill3r wrote:Did I mention my starving children in Nigeria?
Quick give me your savings account information so I can wire you the money you deserve
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Painkill3r
Perkone Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 06:15:25 -
[552] - Quote
Private contract will be fine. |
Jajas Helper
152
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 10:53:12 -
[553] - Quote
The prices are what they are, its a player market...
however i would love to see ccp's data on how many plex are beeing introduced, how many are used and how many are sold/traded on a monthly base for the last x months...
^that would show us more then enough on whts realy going on...
Inferno
do _stuff _with _stuff _to imitate the _stuff _you could do faster with the old stuff
-stuff-
|
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
34226
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 11:14:06 -
[554] - Quote
u3pog wrote:1110m and counting! New records, at that rate we could reach 1.5 billion tomorrow...
First of all, what happened to the Ministry of Defence?
And reading this thread makes me wonder what the price will be by the time I get back home in October. Crikey!
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
|
Jori McKie
Viziam Amarr Empire
271
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 12:01:47 -
[555] - Quote
I think the last time we had so less PLEX in the market i made a topic about it https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=152886. Price spiked like crazy when someone else bought them out completly and CCP had to intervene. I guess CCP will do that again if PLEX are spiking that hard again but in the end it won't matter. PLEX are profoundly over 1b and i doubt they will ever go back.
I'm glad i stocked up my PLEX at 755m with 1100m i'm up 138b profit, nothing can beat passive income ;)
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."
--áAbrazzar
|
Theo Sotken
Mother Knows Best Corporation
38
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 12:17:44 -
[556] - Quote
Is this the thread where people cry about plex prices? |
Johnathan Coffey
Niforce Triggers
32
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 15:07:36 -
[557] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:u3pog wrote:Currently less than 250 PLEX left in Jita...Sellers are waiting for higher prices or simply low supply? Who would spend real life money on a game that has shrinking numbers, less opportunities and less need for more expensive ships? 1) Players are unsubbing 2) Capitals are now more of a burden than before 3) Deflation is starting to become a problem in all other markets (See Pith and T3 prices) 4) New player numbers dropping (they tend to sell plex on the market to vets) 5) Lack of new players means a huge isk sink is gone (Skillbooks) 6) Game is losing its focus and fun for many, which means more PLEX and less SUB Problem with a shrinking player count, shrinking opportunities and lower entertainment value means people won't spend cash on this game, whether that is cash for pay to win (PLEX) or cash for subs (Play with Plex) As a result, Plex has no limit, this is hugely bad for the game. As much as I supported the unfucking of EVE over the past years, I can't but wish for new Jesus features right about now.
First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING.
|
u3pog
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
667
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 15:19:32 -
[558] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:u3pog wrote:1110m and counting! New records, at that rate we could reach 1.5 billion tomorrow... First of all, what happened to the Ministry of Defence? And reading this thread makes me wonder what the price will be by the time I get back home in October. Crikey!
Nothing lasts forever. Vacation is over, time to pay attention to real life for a while. Some day...
I remember when PLEX was stable at around 500 mil mark, then suddently it went up in a matter of months, same thing is happening now, it will stabilize, I just wonder when...Long term though it's not going to stop. When I began playing it was less than 300 mil...
So like ori McKie said, it's always a good idea to stockpile in the right time, however in his case that must have been 400-500 PLEXes, not everyone can invest that much. |
Painkill3r
Perkone Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 16:28:41 -
[559] - Quote
Jori McKie wrote:I'm glad i stocked up my PLEX at 755m with 1100m i'm up 138b profit, nothing can beat passive income ;)
It doesn't go in the revenue column until you sell them mate. |
Jori McKie
Viziam Amarr Empire
271
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 16:44:38 -
[560] - Quote
Painkill3r wrote:Jori McKie wrote:I'm glad i stocked up my PLEX at 755m with 1100m i'm up 138b profit, nothing can beat passive income ;) It doesn't go in the revenue column until you sell them mate.
It still looks good in the books.
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."
--áAbrazzar
|
|
James Zealot
ALEHEADS Apocalypse Now.
20
|
Posted - 2015.08.27 00:15:12 -
[561] - Quote
Wow what a jump in price today. Wish I still had some at the 700mil range. |
Dextrome Thorphan
Intrepid Crossing
128
|
Posted - 2015.08.27 10:56:06 -
[562] - Quote
James Zealot wrote:Wow what a jump in price today. Wish I still had some at the 700mil range.
Lol... I was considering buying 15 plex yesterday, but I didn't... sure wish I did now |
Jacek Cygan
Alzhara Academy
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.27 11:58:41 -
[563] - Quote
now im sure, coz low market stock of plex its manipulated with little cost, from 1100 to 1200 in 24h |
Rykker Bow
The Mjolnir Bloc
173
|
Posted - 2015.08.27 12:00:45 -
[564] - Quote
I actually ran out of liquid isk yesterday ridding plex. I love unstable markets, preferably when I create them myself but I'm happy to ride them when I see them. I put 7b+ profits in the books yesterday.
I do well in seeing short term trends and futures, but what does the long term future hold for plex??
The Mjolnir Bloc - Lowsec PvP for the sophisticated
The Mjolnir Bloc Killboards
|
Jacek Cygan
Alzhara Academy
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.27 13:01:23 -
[565] - Quote
plex price rising coz big issue with eve economy and inflation, isk heavy people prefer to keep plex instead of liquid isk coz inflation
and coz that you have funny guys who keeping 300+ plexes and dont even trying to sell them
i talked about it with friend who keeping such amout of plexes (and giving them for free sometimes) |
Painkill3r
Perkone Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2015.08.27 19:36:29 -
[566] - Quote
2b by the end of the month please. |
Jacek Cygan
Alzhara Academy
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.27 20:52:44 -
[567] - Quote
Painkill3r wrote:2b by the end of the month please. ok but only if tengu price will follow |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
66
|
Posted - 2015.08.28 00:18:11 -
[568] - Quote
I'm surprised we have not seen a recent PLEX sale. |
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
618
|
Posted - 2015.08.28 00:21:53 -
[569] - Quote
Rykker Bow wrote:I actually ran out of liquid isk yesterday ridding plex. I love unstable markets, preferably when I create them myself but I'm happy to ride them when I see them. I put 7b+ profits in the books yesterday.
I do well in seeing short term trends and futures, but what does the long term future hold for plex??
Sudden spikes in price will always bring in new investors. You'll probably witness another price hike before it falls.
My question is how has it taken so long to go from 900 to here? Shouldn't we be at 2 bil already? I know hard core ratters can farm 25+ bil/month in null so its not a matter of having a price that's too high.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
|
u3pog
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
667
|
Posted - 2015.08.28 12:29:36 -
[570] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Rykker Bow wrote:I actually ran out of liquid isk yesterday ridding plex. I love unstable markets, preferably when I create them myself but I'm happy to ride them when I see them. I put 7b+ profits in the books yesterday.
I do well in seeing short term trends and futures, but what does the long term future hold for plex?? Sudden spikes in price will always bring in new investors. You'll probably witness another price hike before it falls. My question is how has it taken so long to go from 900 to here? Shouldn't we be at 2 bil already? I know hard core ratters can farm 25+ bil/month in null so its not a matter of having a price that's too high.
CCP Terminus wrote: We've seen over the years a fairly consistent percentage of our player base PLEX their accounts. If this percentage begins to decline consistently, and is not being counteracted by an increase in subscriber counts, then I'm sure we would take a look in to the system. So far, to my knowledge, even with the ruble plummeting recently, the overall subscriber ratio hasn't really been affected. People who couldn't afford to pay subscription began PLEXing their accounts. The same is true in reverse for the PLEX speculation spike that happened late last year. The overall subscriber count wasn't really affected. After the Black Friday PLEX sale PLEX prices hovered steadily around 800m ISK for around 4 months.
That's CCP's explanation on the steady prices. It's player driven market anyway, so they are not obliged to react, but they observe it anyway. I am sure CCP keep an eye on this thread too. |
|
Painkill3r
Perkone Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2015.08.28 17:28:42 -
[571] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:I'm surprised we have not seen a recent PLEX sale.
The last one was less than a month ago iirc. |
Johnathan Coffey
Niforce Triggers
36
|
Posted - 2015.08.28 17:36:04 -
[572] - Quote
I noticed recently that the free game time for new accounts was upped to 30 days. I wouldn't be surprised if that change has had its share in the accelerated PLEX price hike.
First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING.
|
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8292
|
Posted - 2015.08.28 17:50:15 -
[573] - Quote
As others have said, there's too much money floating around the system.
Sorry you had to go through this terrible condition. What on earth does begging for RL money have to do with EVE, though?
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1023
|
Posted - 2015.08.29 03:45:03 -
[574] - Quote
Painkill3r wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:I'm surprised we have not seen a recent PLEX sale. The last one was less than a month ago iirc. AND... The PLEX sale begins. |
Malt Zedong
WorldTradersGuild.Com
6
|
Posted - 2015.08.29 07:25:19 -
[575] - Quote
There are so many funny things in this thread:
"Plex has not value ingame, it cant be underpriced." Yeah, playing EVE has not value. The sole instrument of sanctioned ISK farming for selling by RL currency has not value. The one thing that allows people to play to pay has no value. Imagine if plex were important, how much it would cost ?
"Plex price is being manually manipulated." Yeah. We had tons of sales in the past, both for returning and new players, which I see most people playing the game havent bothered to check. I had bought plex for less then 10 USD for a while resubbing my old accounts. That were a lot. For me it paid the bother to resub all old account I had throught the years playing just to buy cheaper plex instead of buying a bulk in the main account. Suddenly, it all stopped and then we are back everyone to the same IRL price of plex. But yeah, it is a mistery the prices are going up.
"Plex price is being manually manipulated." II - The return of the mummy. Yeah, the fact that both USD and EURO, major IRL currencies for buying plex skyrocketed in most eve playing countries outside the US and Europe, therefore making plex in average 25% more expensive around the rest of the World in the space of couple days.
What I see is that plex prices are being kept down in face of the circumstances. Because all the natural forces that should act are pushing prices up, not down.
WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.
|
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.29 07:37:44 -
[576] - Quote
It already went up to 1.11 b shortly around the 26th to 27th. (or 28th.) It is back down to 1.04, 1.03, 1.02
I predict again (conservatively, as analyst forecast , while still hiding the source of my data) a 10% to 20% raise in price starting in 3 days , at 1.1b to 1.2b , September to October of this EVE Year.
Edit: This, starting at the 960m, 970m ISK value. (* 1.1= 1.156 b ISK ; * 1.2 = 1.252 b ISK) 2. I forgot number 2. But i never analysed the volume yet, it will be the first year that I start to aqnalyse the volume. However, it does take more resources than I have at this time to make it worthwhile for me to analyze the volume(s) yet. |
Careby
252
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 12:17:59 -
[577] - Quote
Now let's see what one session per client does for the price of plex...
|
Vibiana
Frontier Trading Company
23
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 12:43:50 -
[578] - Quote
Careby wrote:Now let's see what one session per client does for the price of plex...
Same thing that ISBoxer ban did
provided that issue won't get fixed, wich is doubltfull. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1034
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 13:08:33 -
[579] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:We have deployed a patch to fix this issue.
Please close your EVE Client and EVE Launcher and then restart the Launcher. This will update the client removing the bug.
|
Vibiana
Frontier Trading Company
23
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 14:23:09 -
[580] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:CCP Phantom wrote:We have deployed a patch to fix this issue.
Please close your EVE Client and EVE Launcher and then restart the Launcher. This will update the client removing the bug.
before the patch Online - 9k After the patch Online - 18k
Op success |
|
Dextrome Thorphan
Intrepid Crossing
129
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 14:29:24 -
[581] - Quote
Careby wrote:Now let's see what one session per client does for the price of plex...
Did you mean the following? Session = Client Client = PC So... "Now let's see what one client per PC does for the price of plex..."?
Because 1 session per eve client makes no sense... because that's how it is right now.
Or did you mean something else, like 1 client per IP adress? But that would be pretty unfair for people living together... |
Careby
252
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 16:01:33 -
[582] - Quote
Dextrome Thorphan wrote:Careby wrote:Now let's see what one session per client does for the 'tprice of plex...
Did you mean...
Please don't put your potatoes in my tomatoes.
|
Dextrome Thorphan
Intrepid Crossing
129
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 10:34:12 -
[583] - Quote
Careby wrote:Dextrome Thorphan wrote:Careby wrote:Now let's see what one session per client does for the 'tprice of plex...
Did you mean... Please don't put your potatoes in my tomatoes.
Sorry, was just trying to make sense of it (I honestly did not know what you were trying to say) |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
1004
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 11:11:49 -
[584] - Quote
PLEX is EvE's Gold market.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
|
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 16:52:14 -
[585] - Quote
Well, despite my prediction that it would go up to 1.1b - 1.2b in September to October (for Buyers offer, not the sell price value), the price is only 1.05b ISK for only 10 units of volume.
As I mentioned, I saw the price go up to 1.11b ISK, however, it was last August 2015 and not September as predicted, and so the forecast was off by about 1 week. I believe it was around August 24 to the 26th. This value probably remained on the market for a period of 1 hour to 24 hours.
There is still about 3.5 weeks left (4 days + 26 days) in September and another full 31 days left in October, but the price may remain at a 1.05b ISK cap which is not too bad. That is only about 100m ISK less to 200m ISK less than predicted. The price value started to raise from around 960m ISK or less. 960m ISK + 96m ISK (10%) = 1.056m ISK 960m ISK + 192m ISK (20%) = 1.152m ISK
Still not too far off, at least I would have had the percent right , about 4 days off. Let's see what's going to happen, and if the 1.5b prediction of the other user will happen. I think if it does happen, it won't stay on for long.
I expected the price to go up higher but will be trading a few PLEx today (or at least 1), even without my trader to save 0.75%. 1.05b ISK - 0.75% (0.007875) = -1.042125 = 1.042125 ISK |
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.07 08:19:41 -
[586] - Quote
2nd: 1,058,000,500.00 ISK Broker's fee (0.0%) 0.00 ISK Sale tax (1.5%) 15,870,007.50 ISK (with no skills except Trade I, which makes zero difference) 1,042,130,492.50 ISK
1st: 1,057,767,000.00 ISK Broker's fee (0.0%) 0.00 ISK Sale tax (1.5%) 15,866,505.00 ISK (with no skills except Trade I, which makes zero difference) 1,041,900,495.00 ISK
|
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.07 21:33:14 -
[587] - Quote
offers +40m @ 1.093 to 1.087m ISK. +5% from 1b ISK to 1.04b ISK. |
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
55
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 20:21:23 -
[588] - Quote
1.1 billion for a PLEX ... WTF is going on? I thought it would stop at 1 bill and then go down again. Why is it still increasing so much? Have i missed a new ISK faucet? Is there a problem with PLEX supply? (i.e. Are the players just hoarding PLEX en masse as gold reserve?) |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
268
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 06:12:58 -
[589] - Quote
Algarion Getz wrote:1.1 billion for a PLEX ... WTF is going on? I thought it would stop at 1 bill and then go down again. Why is it still increasing so much? Have i missed a new ISK faucet? Is there a problem with PLEX supply? (i.e. Are the players just hoarding PLEX en masse as gold reserve?) Skins keep releasing, without any recent plex sales
TAUTX: Private Bank & Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
|
erg cz
Aligned Fleet CZ-SK
322
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 08:25:19 -
[590] - Quote
Algarion Getz wrote:1.1 billion for a PLEX ... WTF is going on? I thought it would stop at 1 bill and then go down again. Why is it still increasing so much? Have i missed a new ISK faucet? Is there a problem with PLEX supply? (i.e. Are the players just hoarding PLEX en masse as gold reserve?)
People stop generating PLEX. Almost no newbies, who would stay in game long enough to upgrade (so - buddy program as PLEX source is almost out). Null dwellers stop fighting - they are busy relocating. So no PLEX source here as well. No CCP advertisment in mass media - very few new players comming in. MMO, which can be played for free , have advertisment every where - TV, google etc... So new players, who wants pew pew, go there, where they get match making, instant fights and have all this for free. New players, who like sand box, start building their own little empire and get ganked rather quickly at the moment, when they do not have mood / will / skills / ship to fight. Which is frustraiting and make them leave as well.
Absolutely free trial extension. Just click the link and get your extra 2 weeks of Eve for free!
|
|
Angelica Everstar
283
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 09:16:10 -
[591] - Quote
Koniforous wrote:Algarion Getz wrote:1.1 billion for a PLEX ... WTF is going on? I thought it would stop at 1 bill and then go down again. Why is it still increasing so much? Have i missed a new ISK faucet? Is there a problem with PLEX supply? (i.e. Are the players just hoarding PLEX en masse as gold reserve?) Skins keep releasing, without any recent plex sales
There was a sale last week :)
§ Help support PLEX4GOOD
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE08 1.2 Trillion // Total : 3+ Trillon ISK
¢ Any bad spelling or grammar, is free of charge
@EveEntrepreneur
|
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
268
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 11:34:39 -
[592] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:Koniforous wrote:Algarion Getz wrote:1.1 billion for a PLEX ... WTF is going on? I thought it would stop at 1 bill and then go down again. Why is it still increasing so much? Have i missed a new ISK faucet? Is there a problem with PLEX supply? (i.e. Are the players just hoarding PLEX en masse as gold reserve?) Skins keep releasing, without any recent plex sales There was a sale last week :) It must not have ran for very long? I really should log in once in a while....
TAUTX: Private Bank & Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
|
Angelica Everstar
283
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 15:58:25 -
[593] - Quote
A weekend and a bit. So not much effect.
But like I always say - "This is just the beginning"
§ Help support PLEX4GOOD
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE08 1.2 Trillion // Total : 3+ Trillon ISK
¢ Any bad spelling or grammar, is free of charge
@EveEntrepreneur
|
Makhpella
Bad Taste.
41
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 00:43:27 -
[594] - Quote
@Angelica you must have made fortune in the last few weeks... |
Angelica Everstar
284
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 10:58:23 -
[595] - Quote
If one was to had bought 1.200 PLEX for 1b each, for a total of 1.2t ISK. And was to sell them at 1,15b each after taxes and fees. One would make 180b profit.
Now, that would be a nice profit
§ Help support PLEX4GOOD
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE08 1.2 Trillion // Total : 3+ Trillon ISK
¢ Any bad spelling or grammar, is free of charge
@EveEntrepreneur
|
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
670
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 11:01:18 -
[596] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:If one was to had bought 1.200 PLEX for 1b each, for a total of 1.2t ISK. And was to sell them at 1,15b each after taxes and fees. One would make 180b profit. Now, that would be a nice profit
I have the feeling I know who's that one... |
Vibiana
Frontier Trading Company
27
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 15:19:36 -
[597] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:If one was to had bought 1.200 PLEX for 1b each, for a total of 1.2t ISK. And was to sell them at 1,15b each after taxes and fees. One would make 180b profit. Now, that would be a nice profit
Peeps not seeding Plex, EVE is dying post here |
Vibiana
Frontier Trading Company
27
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 15:21:31 -
[598] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:If one was to had bought 1.200 PLEX for 1b each, for a total of 1.2t ISK. And was to sell them at 1,15b each after taxes and fees. One would make 180b profit. Now, that would be a nice profit
Btw, you just made poor sobs farm 20% extra time, insted of PVPing |
Careby
265
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 15:23:30 -
[599] - Quote
Vibiana wrote:Btw, you just made poor sobs farm 20% extra time, insted of PVPing
The poor sobs farming on real farms can now farm 20% less and PVP more.
|
Vibiana
Frontier Trading Company
28
|
Posted - 2015.09.12 00:00:21 -
[600] - Quote
Careby wrote:Vibiana wrote:Btw, you just made poor sobs farm 20% extra time, insted of PVPing The poor sobs farming on real farms can now farm 20% less and PVP more.
leaving CCP without 20% extra farm producs |
|
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
671
|
Posted - 2015.09.12 00:51:43 -
[601] - Quote
Vibiana wrote:Careby wrote:Vibiana wrote:Btw, you just made poor sobs farm 20% extra time, insted of PVPing The poor sobs farming on real farms can now farm 20% less and PVP more. leaving CCP without 20% extra farm producs
You can't be sure of that.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
34393
|
Posted - 2015.09.12 00:56:04 -
[602] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Vibiana wrote:Careby wrote:Vibiana wrote:Btw, you just made poor sobs farm 20% extra time, insted of PVPing The poor sobs farming on real farms can now farm 20% less and PVP more. leaving CCP without 20% extra farm producs You can't be sure of that.
There have been people that couldn't afford PLEX and were falling off the bottom back when I was starting and it cost 600m, I doubt the price hike is hurting.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
|
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
56
|
Posted - 2015.09.13 05:01:44 -
[603] - Quote
1,126,116,985.00 ISK Broker's fee (0.0%) 0.00 ISK Sales tax (0.75%) 8,445,877.39 ISK 1,117,671,107.61 ISK
|
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.13 05:06:20 -
[604] - Quote
The price went up to 1.17b ISK in Jita, folllowing a raise to 1.16b (also in Jita).
(Of course I was unable to get the 500m ISK difference profit, no matter how unfair.)
Now the price dropped again, except for some low volume about 10-20 jumps away.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
597
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 00:15:24 -
[605] - Quote
Looks like someone, probably CCP, has been dumping a bunch of PLEX on the market, across most regions, for the past couple of days. Perhaps an attempt to stabilize prices and slow/stop the recent steep upward climb?
BTW, if it was not CCP, then someone was using a script/bot, because, in at least one region, the sell orders, all at identical prices, were placed seconds apart. |
CaptainMorgan49
Troglodytes of Narnia
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 00:28:48 -
[606] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Looks like someone, probably CCP, has been dumping a bunch of PLEX on the market, across most regions, for the past couple of days. Perhaps an attempt to stabilize prices and slow/stop the recent steep upward climb?
BTW, if it was not CCP, then someone was using a script/bot, because, in at least one region, the sell orders, all at identical prices, were placed seconds apart.
Take the tinfoil hat off!
If CCP put plexes on the market, they would be directly lowering the profit margin of CCP games because nobody had to pay RL money for those plexes. I feel confident in saying that that is something that CCP will never(TM) do. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
597
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 00:52:50 -
[607] - Quote
CaptainMorgan49 wrote:If CCP put plexes on the market, they would be directly lowering the profit margin of CCP games because nobody had to pay RL money for those plexes. I feel confident in saying that that is something that CCP will never(TM) do. From what I was told by some folks at Fanfest, this is not how it works.
CCP has a large number of PLEX, which were confiscated from players, who violated the EULA. They also collect PLEX from activities like the Alliance Tournament. These PLEX have already been paid for, in terms of RL money.
For accounting purposes, CCP apparently does not recognize revenue from PLEX sales, until the PLEX has been consumed in the game - exchanged for game time, used for MCT, or whatever. So, making more PLEX avaialble, at a lower price, particularly that which will be immediately converted to game time, by players who pay for their subs via in-game PLEX, actuallly will improve CCP's income statement, not hurt it. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
576
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 01:22:46 -
[608] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:CaptainMorgan49 wrote:If CCP put plexes on the market, they would be directly lowering the profit margin of CCP games because nobody had to pay RL money for those plexes. I feel confident in saying that that is something that CCP will never(TM) do. From what I was told by some folks at Fanfest, this is not how it works. CCP has a large number of PLEX, which were confiscated from players, who violated the EULA. They also collect PLEX from activities like the Alliance Tournament. These PLEX have already been paid for, in terms of RL money. For accounting purposes, CCP apparently does not recognize revenue from PLEX sales, until the PLEX has been consumed in the game - exchanged for game time, used for MCT, or whatever. So, making more PLEX avaialble, at a lower price, particularly that which will be immediately converted to game time, by players who pay for their subs via in-game PLEX, actuallly will improve CCP's income statement, not hurt it.
Correct, CCP actually carries Plex that are sitting in this game as a liability on their books until they are redeemed, then it goes from unearned income to revenue.
So it is in their best interest to get those confiscated Plex used up, for many reasons.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Tempus Halley
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 02:51:38 -
[609] - Quote
CCP could destroy confiscated Plex and realize the revenue that way. I hear aaything given to a GM is auto-deleted.. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5337
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 03:01:24 -
[610] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Looks like someone, probably CCP, has been dumping a bunch of PLEX on the market, across most regions, for the past couple of days. Perhaps an attempt to stabilize prices and slow/stop the recent steep upward climb?
BTW, if it was not CCP, then someone was using a script/bot, because, in at least one region, the sell orders, all at identical prices, were placed seconds apart.
I often sell multiple stacks of an item at once, and use copy-paste on the prices so I can sell 10 stacks of an item fast enough to look like a bot.
Have a look at https://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=34201 and specifically all the ones priced at 850000.00 - those are all me, all placed seconds apart from each other from the Assets-Search window.
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
|
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Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 04:23:44 -
[611] - Quote
Back to 1.149b ISK in Jita, and nowhere else is higher, < 5 minutes ago from EVE-marketdata.com From 1.12b ISK still another loss.
Give me those complex confiscation, I need to make up for 4 PLEx + 2. Maybe a new sale for PLEx?
|
erg cz
Aligned Fleet CZ-SK
326
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 08:09:39 -
[612] - Quote
Would be funny, if someone, who stockpilled about 10 000 PLEXes in Jita, will decide to put them on the market at, let say, 500 milions ISK. Hardcore market PvP, anyone?
Absolutely free trial extension. Just click the link and get your extra 2 weeks of Eve for free!
|
Daidary Oriki
Krab processing and delivery
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 18:12:52 -
[613] - Quote
well, if you complain it wont get better.
just reduce the amount of training/active toons you have(if you plex with isk). the worst thing you can do is to buy them with real money now, since thats what CCP wants and they keep releasing more stuff that pushes up the plex price(skins etc.)
show them that rising plex prices are not always good. on the short run it gives CCP more money, but the long run: less players -> less people starting to play eve
if a player stops playing eve because of insane plex prices, his friend might stop as well.
im currently training 11 toons.. gonna drop down to 5(not because i cant afford it.. its because it isnt worth with the current prices for me)
so if you dont want them to keep going up, stop training like 12 toons, reduce it to the minimum - if you're not poor, then go on and everything is fine :) |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 19:00:36 -
[614] - Quote
Daidary Oriki wrote:well, if you complain it wont get better.
just reduce the amount of training/active toons you have(if you plex with isk). the worst thing you can do is to buy them with real money now, since thats what CCP wants and they keep releasing more stuff that pushes up the plex price(skins etc.)
show them that rising plex prices are not always good. on the short run it gives CCP more money, but the long run: less players -> less people starting to play eve
if a player stops playing eve because of insane plex prices, his friend might stop as well.
im currently training 11 toons.. gonna drop down to 5(not because i cant afford it.. its because it isnt worth with the current prices for me)
so if you dont want them to keep going up, stop training like 12 toons, reduce it to the minimum - if you're not poor, then go on and everything is fine :)
What do you use your 11 accounts for? |
N00B-SAIB0T
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 19:29:37 -
[615] - Quote
I'm not sure if this is note worthy but I just noticed that a lot of the sell orders were picked up, leaving only 5 active sell orders on the market for about 20 minutes. Looks like someone bought up a lot of sell orders? The price hiked up from 1.17 billion (last night) to 1.22 billion as soon as this happened. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
598
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 00:48:46 -
[616] - Quote
N00B-SAIB0T wrote:I'm not sure if this is note worthy but I just noticed that a lot of the sell orders were picked up, leaving only 5 active sell orders on the market for about 20 minutes. Looks like someone bought up a lot of sell orders? The price hiked up from 1.17 billion (last night) to 1.22 billion as soon as this happened. Yes, I noticed this, as well, in the 3 high-sec regions in which I regularly zip around. Someone(s) with trillions of idle ISK in wallet are working to keep pushing the prices up.
And, it looks like CCP tried to slow this down recently - first with a PLEX sale, then dumping PLEX on market across multiple (all?) regions. It doesn't look like it worked, though - the prices pushed right through the momentary drops/plateaus, as soon as the sale/dumping stopped. I think CCP underestimates how much idle ISK is in the hands of a small number of aggressive market players.
As for why CCP might intervene? I suspect that high PLEX prices affects low-income players who cannot afford to pay for their subs with RL cash, eventually forcing them from the game when they can no longer grind enough ISK to buy in-game PLEX - and I don't think CCP sees this as a good thing.
But, that's just my theory.... |
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
709
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 09:24:20 -
[617] - Quote
I made an experiment yesterday - grind missions for few hours, I made about 300 million. In one day. If someone wants to play this game, but can't afford it with real money, then they should put some effort in it. PLEX has been near a billion for quite some time, I don't think -¦200 mil are that much of an issue. Even if you don't grind few hours per day, 1 week should be absolutely enough to earn that PLEX, so you can do whatever you do till the end of the month.
Also, as Bad Bobby said earlier, each character can have up to 305 market orders, 11 manufacture and science jobs, 21 contracts, 21 R&D agents and so on, and you have 3 characters per account, so if you can't make enough ISK to buy a PLEX, then you are doing it wrong.
People keep creating new threads, omg PLEX is 1 bil, then new one PLEX reached 1.2!! I guess they gonna keep doing it with every 100 mil it goes up, but by now everyone should know that it's price won't stop rising, so...
...PLEX is so cheap right now, compared to what will it be in 1-2 years, buy buy buy. |
Linistitul
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 09:36:22 -
[618] - Quote
Supply and demand. Entities with trillions of ISK can easily manipulate the demand. Looking at how some of those entities got screwed with the new sov, it's not hard to assume that they are pissed at CCP and try to screw them any way they can. |
Rumbaldi
Quantum Innovations Limited
16
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 16:57:32 -
[619] - Quote
u3pog wrote:I made an experiment yesterday - grind missions for few hours, I made about 300 million. In one day. If someone wants to play this game, but can't afford it with real money, then they should put some effort in it. PLEX has been near a billion for quite some time, I don't think -¦200 mil are that much of an issue. Even if you don't grind few hours per day, 1 week should be absolutely enough to earn that PLEX, so you can do whatever you do till the end of the month. Also, as Bad Bobby said earlier, each character can have up to 305 market orders, 11 manufacture and science jobs, 21 contracts, 21 R&D agents and so on, and you have 3 characters per account, so if you can't make enough ISK to buy a PLEX, then you are doing it wrong. People keep creating new threads, omg PLEX is 1 bil, then new one PLEX reached 1.2!! I guess they gonna keep doing it with every 100 mil it goes up, but by now everyone should know that it's price won't stop rising, so... ...PLEX is so cheap right now, compared to what will it be in 1-2 years, buy buy buy.
But doesnt that mean that those players will just be playing the game to firstly train up to get those 305 order slots and the R&D agents etc, then just literally playing to get the next plex which is not ideal. I've seen bad Bobby on the forums and I dont think he is wanting for a few isk so its easy for him to just say, go use the market orders or the R&D agents etc.
but not everyone wants to play the game that way, so regardless of what you or he (or others say) if people plex their account and suddenly the price of plex is restrictive for them they will unsub accounts and/or leave altogether. Whilst some PVE acitivity is necessary, if you are a mainly pvp player, why would you want to grind PVE stuff for 50% of your month? especially those with limited time and perhaps not the game knowledge of how to make good money like the vets have |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
599
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 19:28:26 -
[620] - Quote
u3pog wrote:I made an experiment yesterday - grind missions for few hours, I made about 300 million. In one day. If someone wants to play this game, but can't afford it with real money, then they should put some effort in it. PLEX has been near a billion for quite some time, I don't think -¦200 mil are that much of an issue. Even if you don't grind few hours per day, 1 week should be absolutely enough to earn that PLEX, so you can do whatever you do till the end of the month.
Also, as Bad Bobby said earlier, each character can have up to 305 market orders, 11 manufacture and science jobs, 21 contracts, 21 R&D agents and so on, and you have 3 characters per account, so if you can't make enough ISK to buy a PLEX, then you are doing it wrong. Many, if not most, adults simply do not have that much time available to play a game. RL activities - such as work, family, church, social obligations, taking care of a house, et cetera - take higher precedence. And, it is particularly difficult for lower income players, who may even need to work a second job - they are also the ones with the least amount of free time available to play a game.
So, maybe you get a couple of hours per week, to spend playing games, such as EVE Online - if so, you want to spend those hours enjoying yourself, and not doing stuff in-game which is not particularly fun for you. And, for PVP players, grinding ISK - via mission running, market trading, mining, or other PVE activity - has never been fun. |
|
James Zealot
ALEHEADS Apocalypse Now.
20
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 19:40:36 -
[621] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:u3pog wrote:I made an experiment yesterday - grind missions for few hours, I made about 300 million. In one day. If someone wants to play this game, but can't afford it with real money, then they should put some effort in it. PLEX has been near a billion for quite some time, I don't think -¦200 mil are that much of an issue. Even if you don't grind few hours per day, 1 week should be absolutely enough to earn that PLEX, so you can do whatever you do till the end of the month.
Also, as Bad Bobby said earlier, each character can have up to 305 market orders, 11 manufacture and science jobs, 21 contracts, 21 R&D agents and so on, and you have 3 characters per account, so if you can't make enough ISK to buy a PLEX, then you are doing it wrong. Many, if not most, adults simply do not have that much time available to play a game. RL activities - such as work, family, church, social obligations, taking care of a house, et cetera - take higher precedence. And, it is particularly difficult for lower income players, who may even need to work a second job - they are also the ones with the least amount of free time available to play a game. So, maybe you get a couple of hours per week, to spend playing games, such as EVE Online - if so, you want to spend those hours enjoying yourself, and not doing stuff in-game which is not particularly fun for you. And, for PVP players, grinding ISK - via mission running, market trading, mining, or other PVE activity - has never been fun.
This! Just this. |
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
712
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 19:43:45 -
[622] - Quote
This is the current situation with EVE. Eve doesn't care about people's real life, EVE cares for your money or your ISK. What are you going to do is your problem. As harsh as it may sound, that's the truth.
It's the same in real life. I like BMW, I can go to Munchen and say "Could you please do something about the price, because I have many things to do, my job sucks and can't afford one?" Well, that's my problem. If I can't afford one, I don't drive BMW. Simple as that.
That being said, CCP won't and shouldn't interfere too much with the market and particulary with PLEX, after all it's player driven one. They do it only when things go out of hand too quickly. |
Brometheus Down
The Templar Legacy
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 23:16:35 -
[623] - Quote
Is PLEX going to continue to rise? :[
If so, why?! |
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
712
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 23:19:41 -
[624] - Quote
Just gave away one...for 233 ISK! Gratz to the winner I usually type numbers with the numpad, however this time my little finger just had the urge to click enter, no warning message, no nothing...weird. As a friend suggested - remove it.
...I'll do it - here goes away...the enter key |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
600
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 23:49:54 -
[625] - Quote
Brometheus Down wrote:Is PLEX going to continue to rise? :[
If so, why?! For the near future, I would guess, yes.
In addition to the market speculators, who want to actively push the price up, in order to eventually better profit on their stockpiles of PLEX, purchased at sub-billion ISK prices, there are the many folks who just have too much ISK in wallet.
If you don't fly supercaps, nor laughable bling ships, then there isn't much else on which to spend ISK, for those players who earn billions of ISK per month. Most of them are realizing that they should just convert the excess ISK in wallet to PLEX. As a group, they are buying up an increasing number of PLEX per month. I have a bit over 4 years worth of PLEX myself, and I'm not a particularly space-rich player.
Eventually, though, there will be a tipping point, at which everyone decides that EVE Online isn't going to last 10 or 20 more years, and that they should sell off all of those PLEX which they will never be able to use up. Then, you'll see a massive sell off, and prices should fall rather dramatically. However, at that point, there will also probably be fewer people playing the game, and thus fewer people looking to buy PLEX (essentially, everyone who pays for their subs with PLEX will already have years worth of PLEX stocked up). There are simply not enough new players joining EVE to use up the excess PLEX.
Can CCP do anything to control it?
Hmm.... short of dumping massive numbers of PLEX on the market (enough to absorb all of the outstanding buy orders for a couple of months), selling PLEX at huge RL discounts in order to get players to push massive amounts of PLEX in game (again, enough to absorb the buy orders for a couple of months), eliminating a lot of the large ISK faucets to reduce player income and increasing ISK sinks to remove the trillions upon trillions of idle ISK in wallet from the game ... I'd say "probably not much". |
Katja Andrard
WorldTradersGuild.Com
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 00:43:42 -
[626] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Brometheus Down wrote:Is PLEX going to continue to rise? :[
If so, why?! For the near future, I would guess, yes. In addition to the market speculators, who want to actively push the price up, in order to eventually better profit on their stockpiles of PLEX, purchased at sub-billion ISK prices, there are the many folks who just have too much ISK in wallet. If you don't fly supercaps, nor laughable bling ships, then there isn't much else on which to spend ISK, for those players who earn billions of ISK per month. Most of them are realizing that they should just convert the excess ISK in wallet to PLEX. As a group, they are buying up an increasing number of PLEX per month. I have a bit over 4 years worth of PLEX myself, and I'm not a particularly space-rich player. Eventually, though, there will be a tipping point, at which everyone decides that EVE Online isn't going to last 10 or 20 more years, and that they should sell off all of those PLEX which they will never be able to use up. Then, you'll see a massive sell off, and prices should fall rather dramatically. However, at that point, there will also probably be fewer people playing the game, and thus fewer people looking to buy PLEX (essentially, everyone who pays for their subs with PLEX will already have years worth of PLEX stocked up). There are simply not enough new players joining EVE to use up the excess PLEX. Can CCP do anything to control it? Hmm.... short of dumping massive numbers of PLEX on the market (enough to absorb all of the outstanding buy orders for a couple of months), selling PLEX at huge RL discounts in order to get players to push massive amounts of PLEX in game (again, enough to absorb the buy orders for a couple of months), eliminating a lot of the large ISK faucets to reduce player income and increasing ISK sinks to remove the trillions upon trillions of idle ISK in wallet from the game ... I'd say "probably not much".
Two things for y'all to think about.
First, you underestimate the power of an interventionist market regime. Believe me, there are plenty of options besides pure market inflation/deflation.
Second, has anyone thought about the case in which the rise of prices were by design in the first place ? |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
576
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 00:48:46 -
[627] - Quote
Katja Andrard wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Brometheus Down wrote:Is PLEX going to continue to rise? :[
If so, why?! For the near future, I would guess, yes. In addition to the market speculators, who want to actively push the price up, in order to eventually better profit on their stockpiles of PLEX, purchased at sub-billion ISK prices, there are the many folks who just have too much ISK in wallet. If you don't fly supercaps, nor laughable bling ships, then there isn't much else on which to spend ISK, for those players who earn billions of ISK per month. Most of them are realizing that they should just convert the excess ISK in wallet to PLEX. As a group, they are buying up an increasing number of PLEX per month. I have a bit over 4 years worth of PLEX myself, and I'm not a particularly space-rich player. Eventually, though, there will be a tipping point, at which everyone decides that EVE Online isn't going to last 10 or 20 more years, and that they should sell off all of those PLEX which they will never be able to use up. Then, you'll see a massive sell off, and prices should fall rather dramatically. However, at that point, there will also probably be fewer people playing the game, and thus fewer people looking to buy PLEX (essentially, everyone who pays for their subs with PLEX will already have years worth of PLEX stocked up). There are simply not enough new players joining EVE to use up the excess PLEX. Can CCP do anything to control it? Hmm.... short of dumping massive numbers of PLEX on the market (enough to absorb all of the outstanding buy orders for a couple of months), selling PLEX at huge RL discounts in order to get players to push massive amounts of PLEX in game (again, enough to absorb the buy orders for a couple of months), eliminating a lot of the large ISK faucets to reduce player income and increasing ISK sinks to remove the trillions upon trillions of idle ISK in wallet from the game ... I'd say "probably not much". Two things for y'all to think about. First, you underestimate the power of an interventionist market regime. Believe me, there are plenty of options besides pure market inflation/deflation. Second, has anyone thought about the case in which the rise of prices were by design in the first place ?
Well it has been said before. One Eve Player wins the lottery or gets a big inheritance from a rich uncle and they could collapse the game's economy in a matter of minutes.
Think about the effect of a sudden 2000 plex influx direct to buy orders on the market, the rest to cheap sell orders.
Now that person has a trillion isk to screw with any market they want.
CCP would have to intervene. I am surprised it hasn't happened yet.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Katja Andrard
WorldTradersGuild.Com
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 00:53:10 -
[628] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Katja Andrard wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Brometheus Down wrote:Is PLEX going to continue to rise? :[
If so, why?! For the near future, I would guess, yes. In addition to the market speculators, who want to actively push the price up, in order to eventually better profit on their stockpiles of PLEX, purchased at sub-billion ISK prices, there are the many folks who just have too much ISK in wallet. If you don't fly supercaps, nor laughable bling ships, then there isn't much else on which to spend ISK, for those players who earn billions of ISK per month. Most of them are realizing that they should just convert the excess ISK in wallet to PLEX. As a group, they are buying up an increasing number of PLEX per month. I have a bit over 4 years worth of PLEX myself, and I'm not a particularly space-rich player. Eventually, though, there will be a tipping point, at which everyone decides that EVE Online isn't going to last 10 or 20 more years, and that they should sell off all of those PLEX which they will never be able to use up. Then, you'll see a massive sell off, and prices should fall rather dramatically. However, at that point, there will also probably be fewer people playing the game, and thus fewer people looking to buy PLEX (essentially, everyone who pays for their subs with PLEX will already have years worth of PLEX stocked up). There are simply not enough new players joining EVE to use up the excess PLEX. Can CCP do anything to control it? Hmm.... short of dumping massive numbers of PLEX on the market (enough to absorb all of the outstanding buy orders for a couple of months), selling PLEX at huge RL discounts in order to get players to push massive amounts of PLEX in game (again, enough to absorb the buy orders for a couple of months), eliminating a lot of the large ISK faucets to reduce player income and increasing ISK sinks to remove the trillions upon trillions of idle ISK in wallet from the game ... I'd say "probably not much". Two things for y'all to think about. First, you underestimate the power of an interventionist market regime. Believe me, there are plenty of options besides pure market inflation/deflation. Second, has anyone thought about the case in which the rise of prices were by design in the first place ? Well it has been said before. One Eve Player wins the lottery or gets a big inheritance from a rich uncle and they could collapse the game's economy in a matter of minutes. Think about the effect of a sudden 2000 plex influx direct to buy orders on the market, the rest to cheap sell orders. Now that person has a trillion isk to screw with any market they want. CCP would have to intervene. I am surprised it hasn't happened yet.
Take a look at the market history graph, the correlation between the green bars at the bottom, the mean price line and the size of the dark red area. You can see everytime CCP does. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5340
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 02:19:33 -
[629] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Katja Andrard wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Brometheus Down wrote:Is PLEX going to continue to rise? :[
If so, why?! For the near future, I would guess, yes. In addition to the market speculators, who want to actively push the price up, in order to eventually better profit on their stockpiles of PLEX, purchased at sub-billion ISK prices, there are the many folks who just have too much ISK in wallet. If you don't fly supercaps, nor laughable bling ships, then there isn't much else on which to spend ISK, for those players who earn billions of ISK per month. Most of them are realizing that they should just convert the excess ISK in wallet to PLEX. As a group, they are buying up an increasing number of PLEX per month. I have a bit over 4 years worth of PLEX myself, and I'm not a particularly space-rich player. Eventually, though, there will be a tipping point, at which everyone decides that EVE Online isn't going to last 10 or 20 more years, and that they should sell off all of those PLEX which they will never be able to use up. Then, you'll see a massive sell off, and prices should fall rather dramatically. However, at that point, there will also probably be fewer people playing the game, and thus fewer people looking to buy PLEX (essentially, everyone who pays for their subs with PLEX will already have years worth of PLEX stocked up). There are simply not enough new players joining EVE to use up the excess PLEX. Can CCP do anything to control it? Hmm.... short of dumping massive numbers of PLEX on the market (enough to absorb all of the outstanding buy orders for a couple of months), selling PLEX at huge RL discounts in order to get players to push massive amounts of PLEX in game (again, enough to absorb the buy orders for a couple of months), eliminating a lot of the large ISK faucets to reduce player income and increasing ISK sinks to remove the trillions upon trillions of idle ISK in wallet from the game ... I'd say "probably not much". Two things for y'all to think about. First, you underestimate the power of an interventionist market regime. Believe me, there are plenty of options besides pure market inflation/deflation. Second, has anyone thought about the case in which the rise of prices were by design in the first place ? Well it has been said before. One Eve Player wins the lottery or gets a big inheritance from a rich uncle and they could collapse the game's economy in a matter of minutes. Think about the effect of a sudden 2000 plex influx direct to buy orders on the market, the rest to cheap sell orders. Now that person has a trillion isk to screw with any market they want. CCP would have to intervene. I am surprised it hasn't happened yet.
They'd want to get more than a single trillion ISK for that sum of money.
Let's see what happens the next time CCP offers a sale on 28 packs of PLEX.
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
|
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 07:18:40 -
[630] - Quote
Speaking of lotion...
1,212,100,001 EVE Online ISK 10 min ago.
|
|
Loki Yamaguchi
Level 42 Industries
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 17:02:12 -
[631] - Quote
Lieu Thiesant wrote:Speaking of lotion...
1,212,100,001 EVE Online ISK 10 min ago.
I just did a quick run though Forge, Lonetrek, Citadel, Domain and Tash...all at or close to being above 1.3B (or already above).
Crazy...
EVE Central is so slow now it worthless with such a volatile item.
Guess I need to find a street-corner soon... |
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 17:34:55 -
[632] - Quote
From EVE-Marketdata.com BUYERS 0.5 Metropolis - Hek-1 unit-1,299,000,000 ISK(20 Jumps Range)< 30 minutes ago 0.9 The Forge - Jita-5 units-1,245,000,000 ISK(Station Range)< 5 minutes ago |
Loki Yamaguchi
Level 42 Industries
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:02:21 -
[633] - Quote
Gadolf Agalder wrote:From EVE-Marketdata.com BUYERS 0.5 Metropolis - Hek-1 unit-1,299,000,000 ISK(20 Jumps Range)< 30 minutes ago 0.9 The Forge - Jita-5 units-1,245,000,000 ISK(Station Range)< 5 minutes ago
It's hyper volatile and quickly trending-up.
I'm looking at Jita as I type and 1.329B is the cheapest right now... |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17046
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:49:34 -
[634] - Quote
Loki Yamaguchi wrote:Gadolf Agalder wrote:From EVE-Marketdata.com BUYERS 0.5 Metropolis - Hek-1 unit-1,299,000,000 ISK(20 Jumps Range)< 30 minutes ago 0.9 The Forge - Jita-5 units-1,245,000,000 ISK(Station Range)< 5 minutes ago It's hyper volatile and quickly trending-up. I'm looking at Jita as I type and 1.329B is the cheapest right now...
Are people buying at that price? This question is unconnected with me just having banked my tax refund.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
672
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:51:38 -
[635] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:[quote=Loki Yamaguchi]
Are people buying at that price? This question is unconnected with me just having banked my tax refund.
People have been paying 1.35b today, but the competition is intense at the moment. There are lots of 1.25b+ buy orders though, don't sell below that.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1057
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:52:05 -
[636] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Are people buying at that price? Yes, they most certainly are. |
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:54:52 -
[637] - Quote
This date last month; Plex were under 1 Billion isk each. Right now they are at about 1.25B isk.
This is a 25% increase in price in a 1 Month period - Which makes PLEX currently one of the most valuable investments a player can make. Why loan out isk at 10% monthly when you can Invest plex at 25%? Why deal amazing investments when they only pay 20% ? No investment is as secure as plex as even if a dip were to occur it would shoot through the roof anyhow. The oppurtunity cost of investing in anything but plex is too great.
If CCP were to even attempt to manipulate this value it would be to no avail as people will buy the plex and the price would not even budge; as now more than ever we know the sky is the limit and plex always goes up. It won't be one entity or one person but hundreds of people who will pick up their plex that instant instead of the future.
If new skins are introduced more people redeem plex for aurum regardless of the exchange rate
If there are fewer players in eve; plex rises If skins are released; plex rises
CCP noted when prices reached 1Billion and were temporarilly reset that they did not believe 1B was the right price of plex and infered it should cost more isk than that. Aside from making plex appear out of thin air as opposed to relying on a banned/reserve pile which is now nearly extinguished; there is little way to affect the prices. The reason being; any attempt would be thwarted by people stocking ahead of time knowing they'll save.
Plexes are nearing 15 billion per year per character if you buy your plex once a month. (If you buy it all TODAY) If you bought one a month for each character; the last few months would surely demand a higher price. Don't be suprised if you are paying 25 Billion plex per character if you intend to pay for your next years subscription 1 PLEX at a time. Look for alternate ways to pay.
Do you want 3 extra accounts this year or a Titan? 3 Super Carriers? 70 Carriers?
Because plex is destined to rise without the ability for CCP to intervene in any reasonable way it becomes more and more evident and valuable to pay for your subscription via credit card monthly for all accounts. Isk is not weighed against an item basket; deadspace mods; ships; everything can go down as players farm to make their monthly plex -> The more a player needs to farm the more prices drop ->
Its important to know ISK and its value is based solely on the existance of PLEX and is measured by the cost of plex. The value of isk has gone down down down and the severe inflation we see of ISK being worth 25% less in the last month. In 2 months time your hoarded isk can be worth HALF of what it is worth now and the only way to protect yourself from this volatility is to invest your isk in PLEX -> No other way can you assure your ISK will never lose value -> all the other items to invest in are a gamble; plex is not a gamble.
You can get a deadspace module for a little more; a little less or the same price you could last month in some cases; but you sure as heck can't buy plex at the same price. 1 Billion isk plex will never return. And I don't think 1.25B isk plex will return either
Don't expect CCP to bail out the plex economy this time; the reserves simply are not there. They made their magnificent move already; that hand was already played. Start paying by credit card for each account. As for general goods and items; look at these to determine the breaking point. Plex will go up indefinitely but general goods won't until the point where which the black market and playerbase shrinks.
At that breaking point though; you better buy because that means so many players quit; so many RMT operations moved out of EVE and its profitability is so low; that general goods will rise. Supply and Demand both going down is not ideal; less market competition is not good.
Keep an eye out on those deadspace boosters people; because when that line curves or angles upwards and continues to do so; we hit the breaking point.
One may think the only cure for our condition is injecting cold-hard players straight into the system -> Eve needs new players much like a ponzi schemist needs new investors; if EVE doesn't get the new players its markets implode. You may make the argument it will stabalize at some point; But don't expect to be able to afford goods or plex at the point.
I don't agree with this. i think the cure for our condition is to stop pretending the norms or prices of the past are at all indicative of what things should cost. Wake up people plex is worth a lot more than 1.3B isk. Isk is nothing and PLEX is water; is life; is gold is oil is everything. Plex is the lifeline. Enjoy the low prices while they last; because 1.3B for a plex is nothing compared to where its going. |
Loki Yamaguchi
Level 42 Industries
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:57:17 -
[638] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Are people buying at that price? This question is unconnected with me just having banked my tax refund.
That last price I mentioned was for a stack of 26 units...that's now gone and the price has "dropped" to 1.307B...safe to say people are buying but the volume seems low if the history chart can be trusted.
Also, there are 90 less PLEX over the last two hours available galaxy-wide according to Eve-Central (but I don't overly trust their data anymore but it's at least consistently wrong/slow). |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17046
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 19:01:31 -
[639] - Quote
Leetmcfeet wrote:
Don't expect CCP to bail out the plex economy this time; the reserves simply are not there
Source?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
712
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 19:14:17 -
[640] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Leetmcfeet wrote:
Don't expect CCP to bail out the plex economy this time; the reserves simply are not there
Source?
Crystal ball.
Price is backing up now, but not for long. Few people decided it's time to sell. |
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17046
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 19:20:16 -
[641] - Quote
At Markee Dragon prices, 1.35B for a PLEX comes in at under -ú7 for a billion ISK. That's a pretty persuasive price point.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 19:36:50 -
[642] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Leetmcfeet wrote:
Don't expect CCP to bail out the plex economy this time; the reserves simply are not there
Source?
ISK prices drop as plex prices rise; because ISK is worth less on the black market. When isk is worth less on the black market; RMT opperations go to other games with their farms; which are more profitable. if RMT operations leave; there are less RMT related bans - because nobody is doing it. If there are less RMT bans; there are less RMT related plex to introduce into holding.
Isk becomes worth less on the black market because the value of buying plex from ccp and exchanging it for isk is more prevalent as the amount of illicit isk one could possibly gain becomes very arbitrary as buying plex from CCP offers more and more isk per unit of plex. People are encouraged to obtain isk through CCP legitimately because they get so much isk for their money. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17046
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 19:56:28 -
[643] - Quote
Leetmcfeet wrote:Malcanis wrote:Leetmcfeet wrote:
Don't expect CCP to bail out the plex economy this time; the reserves simply are not there
Source? ISK prices drop as plex prices rise; because ISK is worth less on the black market. When isk is worth less on the black market; RMT opperations go to other games with their farms; which are more profitable. if RMT operations leave; there are less RMT related bans - because nobody is doing it. If there are less RMT bans; there are less RMT related plex to introduce into holding. Isk becomes worth less on the black market because the value of buying plex from ccp and exchanging it for isk is more prevalent as the amount of illicit isk one could possibly gain becomes very arbitrary as buying plex from CCP offers more and more isk per unit of plex. People are encouraged to obtain isk through CCP legitimately because they get so much isk for their money.
Well I just ordered 6 PLEX
In the usual way of things this should more or less immediately drop the price by 25% at least.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Loki Yamaguchi
Level 42 Industries
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 20:06:54 -
[644] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:In the usual way of things this should more or less immediately drop the price by 25% at least.
Aa I type Jita is at 1.319B
Please point us to where PLEX is selling at 990M range... |
Lone Gunman
Forhotea Corporation
33
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 20:21:42 -
[645] - Quote
Mid August. |
Angelica Everstar
286
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 21:23:17 -
[646] - Quote
I feel it's time to yet again repeat myself ...
'This is just the beginning...'
§ Help support PLEX4GOOD
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE08 1.2 Trillion // Total : 3+ Trillon ISK
¢ Any bad spelling or grammar, is free of charge
@EveEntrepreneur
|
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
673
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 21:25:56 -
[647] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:I feel it's time to yet again repeat myself ...'This is just the beginning...'
What happened to this statement?
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
Angelica Everstar
286
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 21:50:08 -
[648] - Quote
I still know some of these people
I have personally asked 'dr. ergo' twice, 'If investments of up to a specific amount was ok'. I have been told twice, that these amounts are fine. So I personally don't go above these amounts.
I guess this is my prediction for PLEX prices : https://twitter.com/EveEntrepreneur/status/644265001599922176
§ Help support PLEX4GOOD
¦Æ Bonds: Current AE08 1.2 Trillion // Total : 3+ Trillon ISK
¢ Any bad spelling or grammar, is free of charge
@EveEntrepreneur
|
Daidary Oriki
Krab processing and delivery
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 23:51:53 -
[649] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Daidary Oriki wrote:well, if you complain it wont get better.
just reduce the amount of training/active toons you have(if you plex with isk). the worst thing you can do is to buy them with real money now, since thats what CCP wants and they keep releasing more stuff that pushes up the plex price(skins etc.)
show them that rising plex prices are not always good. on the short run it gives CCP more money, but the long run: less players -> less people starting to play eve
if a player stops playing eve because of insane plex prices, his friend might stop as well.
im currently training 11 toons.. gonna drop down to 5(not because i cant afford it.. its because it isnt worth with the current prices for me)
so if you dont want them to keep going up, stop training like 12 toons, reduce it to the minimum - if you're not poor, then go on and everything is fine :) What do you use your 11 accounts for?
3 dread toons, some suicide ganking toons for the boring hours.. but mostly all kinds of useful pvp toons, since im living in a C5 |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
601
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 01:07:01 -
[650] - Quote
Leetmcfeet wrote:Aside from making plex appear out of thin air as opposed to relying on a banned/reserve pile which is now nearly extinguished; there is little way to affect the prices.... I'm pretty sure that CCP cannot just make PLEX "out of thin air", due to the way they are doing their accounting, and it isn't clear whether or not CCP's stockpile of confiscated PLEX is "nearly extinguished", or not, since they tend not to publicly release that sort of info.
However, they could always confiscate more PLEX by enforcing more permabans on bot activity. Market bots, in particular, seem to run without much fear of being caught and punished by CCP. The guy who does the Merchant Monarchy blog has apparently reported market bots to CCP several times, but CCP doesn't appear to be very proactive in dealing with them. Many of these bots have been running for years.
Given that market trading is much, much more profitable than mining or mission running, it is probably safe to say that these market botters are making orders of magnitude more ISK than other botters. I'd be willing to bet that they have nice big stockpiles of PLEX, too, and are among those buying up large numbers of PLEX - after all, what else can you do with trillions of ISK in high sec? |
|
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 02:51:01 -
[651] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Leetmcfeet wrote:Aside from making plex appear out of thin air as opposed to relying on a banned/reserve pile which is now nearly extinguished; there is little way to affect the prices.... I'm pretty sure that CCP cannot just make PLEX "out of thin air", due to the way they are doing their accounting, and it isn't clear whether or not CCP's stockpile of confiscated PLEX is "nearly extinguished", or not, since they tend not to publicly release that sort of info. However, they could always confiscate more PLEX by enforcing more permabans on bot activity
There actually is quite a bit of info which pertains to this and CCP themselves released it. On at least one occasion in the last 60 days the community got a snapshot of the wallet sizes of 2 specific ccp characters which were used for holding confiscated isk. These characters covered 2 major categories; such as but not nescessarilly; botting/selling.
The wallets sizes account for trillions; but is raw isk. Total PLEX would be much less than the isk amounts displayed here:
GM x and z
Than there are older stats released at the 2015 Eve Fanfest;
Stats 1
From this we can guess 2.5 trillion in isk monthly total was being gathered than and it was infered by the security team that these numbers were decreasing; thats the total amount - of which PLEX would be very little.
Than there is this graph; dictating those banned by in large were new players
Naughty Newbros
How many new players did we get in the last 90 days?
Than there is this figure:
Security Team SMASH!
Which showed a downward trend and decline in illicit actions and bannable and thus confiscated assets.
March was 2.5 trillion in total assets; isk plex etc. and we got to that point from a downward trend - Its 6 months later; if that trend continued; if security continued to be at least as efficient; todays numbers could very well be miniscule and will continue to decline rapidly as ISK loses its value on the black market due to the correlation between it and the price of PLEX: (READ: how much isk you get for a PLEX)
Mind the average player count and peak concurent users for these time periods; note the population we see today; note that there indeed is less illicit activity to weigh against the great security team CCP has; note how profitable EVE is on the black market in comparison to other MMO titles. Note the complete reorginzation of sov and what that meant for renters who made up the vast majority of illicit activity. These things have affects and drive down illicit activity.
The evil people are not going to be found here; they left for greener pastures whether by not being able to feed their children from botting eve; or having been successfully thwarted one times too many. Illicit activity will continue to decline as ISK becomes more and more worthless in comparison to something like wow gold. Eve is just not a good game for botting/RMT/Cheating because the money is not there and real life money; and bread to put on the table for little suzzie is what drives the big botters.
But don't shed a tear for them; they will make better money in another game. Given the data; I infer there is no mountain of plex to fix the market and it must be stated again; CCP infered plex should cost more than 1 Billion isk per unit back when it first reached 1 Billion and they intervened. And I say it should cost more than 1.3B isk per unit as it is the lifeline.
|
yvsyvz
50 Shades of Autism
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 02:56:03 -
[652] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:N00B-SAIB0T wrote:I'm not sure if this is note worthy but I just noticed that a lot of the sell orders were picked up, leaving only 5 active sell orders on the market for about 20 minutes. Looks like someone bought up a lot of sell orders? The price hiked up from 1.17 billion (last night) to 1.22 billion as soon as this happened. Yes, I noticed this, as well, in the 3 high-sec regions in which I regularly zip around. Someone(s) with trillions of idle ISK in wallet are working to keep pushing the prices up. And, it looks like CCP tried to slow this down recently - first with a PLEX sale, then dumping PLEX on market across multiple (all?) regions. It doesn't look like it worked, though - the prices pushed right through the momentary drops/plateaus, as soon as the sale/dumping stopped. I think CCP underestimates how much idle ISK is in the hands of a small number of aggressive market players. As for why CCP might intervene? I suspect that high PLEX prices affects low-income players who cannot afford to pay for their subs with RL cash, eventually forcing them from the game when they can no longer grind enough ISK to buy in-game PLEX - and I don't think CCP sees this as a good thing. But, that's just my theory....
This is exactly whats happening. Most of the people I know have bought one plex with their last ISK and will use that plex to reactivate the account when the prices come to affordable regions again, IF that will happen. I am not sure if CCP can do anything about these market manipulations but I hope so, because I loose a hell lot of good ingame friends to this at the moment. :( |
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 03:55:01 -
[653] - Quote
I would like to make a correction; I actually found this in relation to GMs x and z
CCP Peligro GÇÅ@CCP_Peligro Feb 17 @Silva117 @noizygamer The raw ISK actually pales in comparison to the worth of the asset on banned accounts.
That being the case; the snapshot is from a very active time in history and likely contains several Titan class super capital class ships. That being said I find it harder to quantify how much plex may be available; but can still attest very little if any could be flowing in given the rest of the data we are privy too. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5349
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 05:37:06 -
[654] - Quote
A low value of ISK (which translates to one PLEX trading for a lot of ISK) is good for CCP.
CCP make all of their revenue from players that purchase a subscription and/or people that use PLEX as a sanctioned form of RMT ISK buying.
A player that PLEXes their account or accounts produce no revenue. Their merit to CCP is solely that they raise demand for PLEX.
If they leave because they consider PLEX prices too high, CCP are just fine with that. Those players have already done their job (providing a form of marketing for CCP's 6 and 28 packs of PLEX).
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
|
yvsyvz
50 Shades of Autism
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 06:13:46 -
[655] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:A low value of ISK (which translates to one PLEX trading for a lot of ISK) is good for CCP.
CCP make all of their revenue from players that purchase a subscription and/or people that use PLEX as a sanctioned form of RMT ISK buying.
A player that PLEXes their account or accounts produce no revenue. Their merit to CCP is solely that they raise demand for PLEX.
If they leave because they consider PLEX prices too high, CCP are just fine with that. Those players have already done their job (providing a form of marketing for CCP's 6 and 28 packs of PLEX).
If they leave the game dies further plus these people are the subcribers of the future. It is not what CCP wants lol. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5349
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 07:26:14 -
[656] - Quote
yvsyvz wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:A low value of ISK (which translates to one PLEX trading for a lot of ISK) is good for CCP.
CCP make all of their revenue from players that purchase a subscription and/or people that use PLEX as a sanctioned form of RMT ISK buying.
A player that PLEXes their account or accounts produce no revenue. Their merit to CCP is solely that they raise demand for PLEX.
If they leave because they consider PLEX prices too high, CCP are just fine with that. Those players have already done their job (providing a form of marketing for CCP's 6 and 28 packs of PLEX). If they leave, the game dies further plus these people are the subcribers of the future. It is not what CCP wants lol.
CCP would rather they stick around, but *solely* for the marketing they provide for PLEX sales and (less importantly) for their role in content creation.
Mostly they are subscribers of the past, not the future.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
|
Rumbaldi
Quantum Innovations Limited
16
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 10:20:41 -
[657] - Quote
If someone is using plex to fund their account, be it game time or training and that person leaves then surely that is reducing the demand of plex.
If someone with even 3 same account toons wanted to plex game time and geet all 3 training queues going they would need 3 plex, if they leave then that is 3 plex that will not be sold. Surely that is not a good thing.
R |
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 12:29:57 -
[658] - Quote
Rumbaldi wrote:If someone is using plex to fund their account, be it game time or training and that person leaves then surely that is reducing the demand of plex.
If someone with even 3 same account toons wanted to plex game time and geet all 3 training queues going they would need 3 plex, if they leave then that is 3 plex that will not be sold. Surely that is not a good thing.
R
I don't forsee this high reducing the demand of PLEX: quite the opposite. I expect the DEMAND for PLEX to skyrocket higher than its ever been before. You can get new skins with PLEX; you can get ISK and CCP offers a great deal.
I suspect anyone who temporarilly or even permamently quit due to this would be vastly outweighed by the additional purchases people are now making and have been making in anticipation of skins and plex to isk conversions. I say temporarilly as eve players historically resub when things are good again or different enough for another try. Maybe they'll just be able to afford 10 or 15 dollars a month to sub down the line. The higher PLEX climbs; the more incentive there is to buy PLEX.
Lets be honest god forbid someone quit they would likely return; people statistically return to EVE and anyone posting here is so deep in EVE and cares so much that they are destined to return should they take a break. And when they do they will be able to grab a couple billion isk for a plex.
The second CCP is not selling more plex through PLEX being worth more isk in comparison to any player who cannot sub their account is the second CCP will introduce a plex sale. CCP had how many economists watch over this game in the past? And still pays someone to study the economy.
REST assured their data is better than yours and they know very well what will happen. You don't need to teach CCP economics or subs because they already have people who devoted their lifes work to this and already know the answer. Peoples napkin math and calculations had been run countless times over the years no doubt by staff who were paid to do so; not just encouraged on a whim because it affected them but because that was their job.
They know what the market can bear. They know the exact numbers. So don't spaceship economist theorizing the possibilities on this one. |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
78
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 14:40:15 -
[659] - Quote
Leetmcfeet wrote:Rumbaldi wrote:If someone is using plex to fund their account, be it game time or training and that person leaves then surely that is reducing the demand of plex.
If someone with even 3 same account toons wanted to plex game time and geet all 3 training queues going they would need 3 plex, if they leave then that is 3 plex that will not be sold. Surely that is not a good thing.
R I don't forsee this high reducing the demand of PLEX: quite the opposite. I expect the DEMAND for PLEX to skyrocket higher than its ever been before. You can get new skins with PLEX; you can get ISK and CCP offers a great deal. I suspect anyone who temporarilly or even permamently quit due to this would be vastly outweighed by the additional purchases people are now making and have been making in anticipation of skins and plex to isk conversions. I say temporarilly as eve players historically resub when things are good again or different enough for another try. Maybe they'll just be able to afford 10 or 15 dollars a month to sub down the line. The higher PLEX climbs; the more incentive there is to buy PLEX. Lets be honest god forbid someone quit they would likely return; people statistically return to EVE and anyone posting here is so deep in EVE and cares so much that they are destined to return should they take a break. And when they do they will be able to grab a couple billion isk for a plex. The second CCP is not selling more plex through PLEX being worth more isk in comparison to any player who cannot sub their account is the second CCP will introduce a plex sale. CCP had how many economists watch over this game in the past? And still pays someone to study the economy. REST assured their data is better than yours and they know very well what will happen. You don't need to teach CCP economics or subs because they already have people who devoted their lifes work to this and already know the answer. Peoples napkin math and calculations had been run countless times over the years no doubt by staff who were paid to do so; not just encouraged on a whim because it affected them but because that was their job. They know what the market can bear. They know the exact numbers. So don't spaceship economist theorizing the possibilities on this one.
Your belief that economists know exactly what is going to happen is laughable. |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
78
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 14:49:08 -
[660] - Quote
CCP has had numerous PLEX sales and guess what? They were all at lower PLEX isk prices. How do you expect some new PLEX sale to magically set this perfect number for what a PLEX "should" be at? The reality is that at best, they would have an idea of what the sweet spot is for PLEX price but markets surprise all the time. The only way they might know is if we have already passed that number and they see things in the data. But if that had happened, by your logic, we would be seeing an be all to end all massive PLEX sale on right |
|
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 15:10:44 -
[661] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:
Your belief that economists know exactly what is going to happen is laughable.
Surely can be likened to the weatherman but there is a reason why economist is a profession. They have more access and more data than any player here; they have monitored this phenomena to varying degrees in the past. You are hung up on the terminology exactly and want to point out that "they in fact have a much better idea than anyone here" - was the correct phrase. What exactly do you think you are pointing out that other readers couldn't see for themselves?
Alexi Stokov wrote:CCP has had numerous PLEX sales and guess what? They were all at lower PLEX isk prices. How do you expect some new PLEX sale to magically set this perfect number for what a PLEX "should" be at? The reality is that at best, they would have an idea of what the sweet spot is for PLEX price but markets surprise all the time. The only way they might know is if we have already passed that number and they see things in the data. But if that had happened, by your logic, we would be seeing a be all to end all massive PLEX sale on right
Markee Dragon when questioned noted Business has spiked in relation to the plex prices going up. He is a third party seller of plex and is a great indication that CCP's own numbers are up.
If you wanted a BMW which is priced at $179,120 and is offered at a car lot for $169,000 you might buy it. If that same BMW is priced one sale at 1 cent; you will buy it.
It can't be that hard to understand how it is possible that plex could sell more units when there have been sales before. When you become an adult and need to get groceries weekly you will better understand the noted relationship; because everything is always on sale at the supermarket. |
icarus1166
Cripple Creek Viral Society
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 17:57:46 -
[662] - Quote
Capatalism in its best form!!!! Players/botters what ever. This wil deal with a couplet of things!!!
Multibox Players being killed over time. I can tell because i am 1. If i cant keep Up ill drop 75% of my toons.
Result.
Multibox miners. Less miners on the market higher schip mod proces at the end. The one pvper that sales a plex can buy a carrier for Gé¼15,- ATM See if that carrier will stil cost 1bil isk next year.
Less multibox pvping
Beter fight on 1 on 1 base. Less cyno alts flying around to set Up a highway for carriers And other jump capable ships. Less hotdrops or maybe beter orginezed because of Players drpping alts first.
I must say i dont give a ****. I like to plex my account as far as i can go. But will not become a second job me!!!!!
This is what will happen on my side cause i help plexing corp mates as wel.
First i drop my toons 1by1 since i cant grind or collectie more then im willing to play. (3 to 4 hour daily online ) After this my team mates have to make a choice what they will do. If this ends Up quiting the game ill lose around 12 Players that are flying with me.
No more reason to play for me either. Cause what keeps me ingame is not the actual game it self. It are the Players i fly with.
About CCP not interupting this fenominon is there right. Market will heal it self, or kill her self.
Lets push Up those plexes a 100 mil isk per week. Wonder what the effects are in about Christmas times!!!
Cant waiting guys!!!! Keep on f*****g everything Up. Untill there are no buyers anymore.
Mhahahaha.
|
Nero Farway
Selectivity
34
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 19:09:37 -
[663] - Quote
icarus1166 wrote: Lets push Up those plexes a 100 mil isk per week. Wonder what the effects are in about Christmas times!!!
Cant waiting guys!!!! Keep on f*****g everything Up.
I think my now we all know whats actually happening, it's been explained multiple times. Prices go up if demand exceeds supply. In return, they drop if supply exceeds demand.
Another basic thing we all know is that we can choose if we buy something (provided we have the money for it), sell it (provided we have it) or leave the market alone, but we cannot force others to do any of these things.
Knowing these 2 things - which basically everyone posting here knows - by applying simple logic, we can conclude that there are only so many ways to influence the market.
1) We can influence the market upwards if we buy. 2) We can influence the market downwards if we sell. 3) We can choose not to influence the market buy doing neither.
As we can see, complaining about the prices is not on the list. In fact, it's counterproductive to complain because if one cares that much about plex prices that he complains, he could better use that time doing 1) or 2).
Applying that to PLEX, people who buy plex on the eve Market are doing 1). They influence the market upwards, regardless of what they use the PLEX for. However, if they want the price of PLEX lower, they should instead do 2). If they do not want to do 2) but rather do 1), they cannot complain about the price trending up. In fact, they are part of the "problem" they seem to have. If they do not want to do 2) because they do not have the money for it, then thats ok. They can always do 3) without caring about that particular market. If they do not want to pay for the sub (which they could, they were able to afford a computer after all, they might just have other priorities and thats fine) and do 1) instead, they cannot complain. If you complain about yourself you should probably change O_o
I conclude: If people stay and do 2) or 3) they don't influence the market upwards. If people leave, they don't influence the market upwards. Only the ones doing 1) are the source of the "problem". Because of this, they have no right to complain.
Edit: quotation marks on "problem" are used because some see it as one, but I do not think this is a problem at all. |
icarus1166
Cripple Creek Viral Society
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 19:21:08 -
[664] - Quote
I fully agree with you Nero.
Im diggin And shooting my way trough the game pretty wel. But i think this will drive Players away anyway. My main trouble is that ill Lose my corp teammates over time. Thats what im complaining about ;)
I can fly with 4 toons without plexing. Because i can. Unfortunatly not everybody has this luxury.
So a call to all indys!!!! Push your prices Up on the market.
The miners need the pvp ers And visa versa.
They want more isk for 1item? So do you =)
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
87
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 21:00:02 -
[665] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:At Markee Dragon prices, 1.35B for a PLEX comes in at under -ú7 for a billion ISK. That's a pretty persuasive price point.
Eh. Maybe. Aside from the fact that is a very good exchange rate in absolute terms, the relative utility of isk is really questionable.
I'm too new to feel overly confident about my asessment, but I think the rallying PLEX is more about signaling how trivial isk has become to players who are subscribed with cash. If PLEX and it's associated vanity items are all people really have a need to spend their isk on, then those things are going to soar in price while everything else descends to floor production cost.
Of course, individuals have varying valuations of isk. Some might want the biggest stack as a thing in itself. Some might have a more expensive taste in ships and don't have an alliance program to replace them. But I think on the average most players are either subscribed with cash and have an incredibly low-overhead cost of operation OR are subscribed with PLEX and have an overhead-cost that is almost entirely PLEX.
So what the market is actually signaling is that cash subscribers don't want the service of being provided isk as much as they used to. Or, perhaps more accurately, speculators are signaling to cash subscribers that they have been selling PLEX at a rate which is far below what the PLEX-consumers are willing to pay and they are willing to part with more of their isk in order to hold a more stable asset, one that can always be redeemed for something.
In the extreme event that isk was devalued to the point where it was nearly worthless eg. gold in most games, PLEX holders would still be able to redeem their stash for something. Meanwhile, isk holders would be completely hosed, unable to exchange their great mountain of credit for much of anything. |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
78
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 21:33:57 -
[666] - Quote
Leetmcfeet wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:
Your belief that economists know exactly what is going to happen is laughable.
Surely can be likened to the weatherman but there is a reason why economist is a profession. They have more access and more data than any player here; they have monitored this phenomena to varying degrees in the past. You are hung up on the terminology exactly and want to point out that "they in fact have a much better idea than anyone here" - was the correct phrase. What exactly do you think you are pointing out that other readers couldn't see for themselves? Alexi Stokov wrote:CCP has had numerous PLEX sales and guess what? They were all at lower PLEX isk prices. How do you expect some new PLEX sale to magically set this perfect number for what a PLEX "should" be at? The reality is that at best, they would have an idea of what the sweet spot is for PLEX price but markets surprise all the time. The only way they might know is if we have already passed that number and they see things in the data. But if that had happened, by your logic, we would be seeing a be all to end all massive PLEX sale on right Markee Dragon when questioned noted Business has spiked in relation to the plex prices going up. He is a third party seller of plex and is a great indication that CCP's own numbers are up. If you wanted a BMW which is priced at $179,120 and is offered at a car lot for $169,000 you might buy it. If that same BMW is priced one sale at 1 cent; you will buy it. It can't be that hard to understand how it is possible that plex could sell more units when there have been sales before. When you become an adult and need to get groceries weekly you will better understand the noted relationship; because everything is always on sale at the supermarket.
I'm just saying out loud what everyone is thinking.... That economists are not that good and a belief that they know exactly what will happen is rediculous |
Akballah Kassan
Mosquito Squadron Mordus Angels
69
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 21:38:24 -
[667] - Quote
Being the kind of person that hates grinding isk I bailed out of plexing my alt accounts when the price reached 1 billion. I was hoping that would be the 'top', obviously I was wrong.
Now I just pay two subs for two accounts.
I'm just hoping that one day CCP put a time stamp on Plexes - if they are not used within 12 months they become worthless.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
601
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 21:55:59 -
[668] - Quote
Well, here's another speculation on the future:
We're approaching the holiday and gift-giving season, and CCP usually runs a series of PLEX sales through Nov-Jan. PLEX prices tend to drop during this period, due to more frequent bursts of increased sales of PLEX for RL cash. Also, market speculators typically sell off PLEX during the earlier part of the season, to take out their profits while the prices are still high. They start buying PLEX again in the latter part of the season, when the PLEX sales have pushed in-game prices down.
So, I'd guess that we'll see PLEX prices continue to rise until mid Nov - easily pushing through any isolated weekend-only 10% off sales that CCP might try to use to slow things down. Around early Dec, I think we'll see prices level off - and perhaps drop somewhat through Dec and early Jan, depending on whether or not CCP runs an early Jan PLEX sales right after New Year's Day (which I think they should - that is the usual time when people, esp. the kids, have extra RL cash to spend, due to New Year's cash gifts given in many countries/cultures).
After Jan, I'd expect prices to start rising again, as speculators rapidly buy up the lower-cost PLEX injected into the game.
So... buy now, or wait until Nov/Dec? That depends on how much you think the prices will rise until then, and how long CCP will run their hoiday season sales. If the sales are extended and larger than normal (say 20%), then PLEX prices may go low; if not, then we may only see a plateau on prices and not a significant drop (ie. PLEX will still cost more in Nov/Dec than current prices).
Personally, I advise buying PLEX whenever you have excess idle ISK in your wallet, regardless of the price trends. If the price goes low, then just buy more. Remember that a PLEX is *always* worth 30 days of game play, so no loss ever in terms of RL value. |
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 23:17:06 -
[669] - Quote
Last year; prices rose over 20% between October and the middle of November; and than the prices went back to normal at around December. For more info on this: http://nosygamer.blogspot.com/2014/12/a-quick-history-of-christmas-plex-prices.html
That being said there is a rough 2 months ahead of us and when the price goes down for December (If it goes down any reasonable %) It will be to a price which could very well be a price higher than what plex currently demands. That link suggests the announcement of ISBOXER multibroadcast being bannable lowered plex prices back than.
Given the data plex appears to rise in cost each year and has a small dip around the month of christmas. When this occurs I think plex will be at a fine price for the year; but it will be more expensive than it is now (1.3B) I think 1.3 will pale in comparison to where plex is heading this year.
This noted trend of a PLEX bubble; suggests we may see this price hike for another 2 full months before release; when all is said and done; the resting price for the new year I expect to be over the current price; Do not expect plex to be cheaper in December than it is today; Insteadl; expect the price of plex in December to be cheaper than Novembers high. |
motie one
Secret Passage
18
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 11:59:04 -
[670] - Quote
Well we are are in a really interesting position.
The situation that has occured is an anethema to the concept of an open market. Under healthy conditions wealth is generated and the product of this increased wealth is reinvestment into the economy, leading to increased production with short term inflation whilst production catches up. Destruction in eve would be the consumption driver to soak up this greater availability of goods.
However we now have the wealth generated being soaked up via plex purchases. Together with rampant speculation to maximise the paper value of such items.
This is a situation that is not just unstable but destructive to the eve econony and player use of said plex.
Plex is a commodity that is designed for use not risk free storage of wealth. It is not a gold standard.
It is insanity to believe that CCP can indefinitely support this imbalance.
This wealth needs to be returned to the wider economy, to stimulate all areas of the game.
I would expect the process would be permenant and fixed NPC sell orders at 500m coupled with a Plex sale of 1$/Gé¼/-ú over the subscription rate for a transition period. The free market will continue to operate beneath this hard cap.
This would force a transfer of isk held in Plex holdings into the wider economy whilst limiting the overload of fresh isk into the economy.
Yes some players will lose MASSIVE amounts of Paper Isk profits, but will overall mean isk assets will be used to fund production and spread throught the economy, (isk velocity).
This would be good for Players, Good for retention, good for activity, and good for the game overall. Unless plex is dealt with as an Isk limbo, we will see lesser and lesser activity as a result.
I understand that Large plex holders and speculators will loath and hate this concept, but the overall health of EvE is greater than paper profits, that you cannot realise as the velocity of plex has collapsed. Paper profits are meaningless without large numbers of end users willing and able to purchase plex. |
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
674
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 12:30:32 -
[671] - Quote
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
erg cz
Aligned Fleet CZ-SK
335
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 12:59:49 -
[672] - Quote
motie one wrote:
I would expect the process would be permenant and fixed NPC sell orders at 500m
Never going to happen. Too many players will stop subscription and just plex their accounts since this 500 m is achievable in a matter of 50 hours of AFK mining even with semi-newbie skills, not speaking about higher ISK /hour activities.
Absolutely free trial extension. Just click the link and get your extra 2 weeks of Eve for free!
|
Nouva MacGyver
MacGyver Communications
17
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 13:26:39 -
[673] - Quote
This is just 34 pages of (mostly) a minority. In the span of a month there are enough unique client IDs for both buyers and sellers of plex DAILY, with sell orders completed edging buy orders being fulfilled on average.
Figuratively, the daily rate of movement is just as "healthy" as it was from years ago. No authoritative intervention is required, just the regular market forces at work. |
motie one
Secret Passage
18
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 14:47:12 -
[674] - Quote
Nouva MacGyver wrote:This is just 34 pages of (mostly) a minority. In the span of a month there are enough unique client IDs for both buyers and sellers of plex DAILY, with sell orders completed edging buy orders being fulfilled on average.
Figuratively, the daily rate of movement is just as "healthy" as it was from years ago. No authoritative intervention is required, just the regular market forces at work.
CCP can compare the Numbers of Plex held versus the velocity of movement. It appears to have become immobile relatively speaking from the information available. {Numbers sold vs estimated stocks held.} Market forces only work in a liquid market. A small number of speculators Dabbling on the edge of the market, are setting price, not market forces. The market by definition has become illiquid. |
Cervantis Storm
Respawn Disabled Initiative Mercenaries
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 15:25:50 -
[675] - Quote
Another Factor to consider in increasing plex prices, ship skins. People aren't just adding game time anymore, they are getting there fancy painted ships making the price of plex more valuable. I really do not expect plex to drop below 1bil again unless ships skins can be bought by other means. |
Nouva MacGyver
MacGyver Communications
17
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 15:56:59 -
[676] - Quote
motie one wrote:Nouva MacGyver wrote:This is just 34 pages of (mostly) a minority. In the span of a month there are enough unique client IDs for both buyers and sellers of plex DAILY, with sell orders completed edging buy orders being fulfilled on average.
Figuratively, the daily rate of movement is just as "healthy" as it was from years ago. No authoritative intervention is required, just the regular market forces at work. CCP can compare the Numbers of Plex held versus the velocity of movement. It appears to have become immobile relatively speaking from the information available. {Numbers sold vs estimated stocks held.} Market forces only work in a liquid market. A small number of speculators Dabbling on the edge of the market, are setting price, not market forces. The market by definition has become illiquid.
I think I should clarify my stance. Stocks held for speculation aside, the rapidity of the plex's buy and sell has not suffered overall on a daily basis, even at these prices. Whatever the plexes on the market are being used for in the end, plex is still experiencing a fluid trade and changing of hands. My statements were never a for or against the prices.
There is no real need for a CCP intervention when a majority of players (including speculators) are carrying on their respective roles as they are with regards to the plex market for their own perceived advantages. |
motie one
Secret Passage
18
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 17:14:36 -
[677] - Quote
Nouva MacGyver wrote:motie one wrote:Nouva MacGyver wrote:This is just 34 pages of (mostly) a minority. In the span of a month there are enough unique client IDs for both buyers and sellers of plex DAILY, with sell orders completed edging buy orders being fulfilled on average.
Figuratively, the daily rate of movement is just as "healthy" as it was from years ago. No authoritative intervention is required, just the regular market forces at work. CCP can compare the Numbers of Plex held versus the velocity of movement. It appears to have become immobile relatively speaking from the information available. {Numbers sold vs estimated stocks held.} Market forces only work in a liquid market. A small number of speculators Dabbling on the edge of the market, are setting price, not market forces. The market by definition has become illiquid. I think I should clarify my stance. Stocks held for speculation aside, the rapidity of the plex's buy and sell has not suffered overall on a daily basis, even at these prices. Whatever the plexes on the market are being used for in the end, plex is still experiencing a fluid trade and changing of hands. My statements were never a for or against the prices. There is no real need for a CCP intervention when a majority of players (including speculators) are carrying on their respective roles as they are with regards to the plex market for their own perceived advantages.
We may be looking at different figures, It appears that the velocity of plex transactions has stopped other than between traders. Plex is being bought for trading or storage, and even storage has ceased at these levels. Players buying plex on the market for other roles appears to have effectively ended. Of course only CCP have the hard data at this level.
However when a core component of the EVE economy and the driver for many functions, alts etc, has ceased to function other than a way of counting trading coup, One would be either foolish or delusional, to believe that such a state will continue to the detriment of CCP's continuing existence. |
Ulmaki
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 00:49:19 -
[678] - Quote
This is becoming damaging to player base. Some friends from my corp already left/ceased to play eve because of plex prices. Not everyone have nice jobs or much real money to play. |
yvsyvz
50 Shades of Autism
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 02:03:03 -
[679] - Quote
What motie one wrote is so f****** right I hope CCP will eventually notice his comments.
I am not sure which price a plex should be and how to fix a price but I am very sure that it needs to be protected from market pvp. We have reached a certain threshold of players with insane amounts of ISK that can manipulate the life line of eve with ease with far more consequences than the average reddit ****** is able to determine. |
Katja Andrard
WorldTradersGuild.Com
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 04:02:25 -
[680] - Quote
yvsyvz wrote:What motie one wrote is so f****** right I hope CCP will eventually notice his comments. I am not sure which price a plex should be and how to fix a price but I am very sure that it needs to be protected from market pvp. We have reached a certain threshold of players with insane amounts of ISK that can manipulate the life line of eve with ease with far more consequences than the average reddit ****** is able to determine.
And for those who criticize people who compare EVE with real life, that is pretty much how a PLEX bubble is being formed. I am holding up before the Donchian Channel advises me otherwise.
Plex is a tricky thing in EVE market because it is the one thing that do not follow the pattern "it is just a game". Anything else people just buy for whatever price because "it is just play money". PLEX, on the other hand, will become stale like IRL market once it outprices its utility. |
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Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 04:18:11 -
[681] - Quote
Get your plex now; at these prices. you can grab them at 1.2B around the time when the new day starts in eve. Why?
Because historically plex prices rise and rise and rise in fall and winter. October plex will be higher on average; November plex will be higher on average. The supply of plex will be very low as we move into and throughout winter baring sales which barely effect its price.
Forget what prices plex used to be. If you see 1.2B plex; you should think thats normal. 1,2 is the new 1b was the old 800m was the old was the old 540m was the old 300m - when prices finally calm next summer;
If you don't want to pay via credit card; and you don't think you want to pay 1.4-1.5B this winter; buy at 1.2. The only other time you might get a chance may be on the 23'rd-24th when power of 2 promotion is no longer in effect; as people currently can trade 3 plex for 6 months of training on an alt account. Buy at the lowest point you can but do not plan on 1B returning.
If you don't have a storage of liquid isk for this winter or otherwise have your subscription planned/figured out/paid for; budget how you are going to acquire 1.3-1.5B isk each month and you will be fine. You should see daily highs and lows which may vary from 5-10% with some outliers selling more or less than this range; make a buy order - buy low. The lowest price you can; do not wait for October; do not wait for Novermber - Do not plan on a drastic game change or announcement to hopefully lower prices. It will be a harsh winter.
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Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 03:38:55 -
[682] - Quote
Except it was 1.29b ISK near Jita and it's now 1.18 b ISK in Jita by the time I logged in. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5372
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 05:09:14 -
[683] - Quote
I sort of wonder why CCP doesn't eliminate PLEX, and instead go back to aurum tokens, and add 30 days of gametime to the NES.
Having two currencies, tradeable PLEX and non-tradeable aurum, doesn't make sense to my pea of a brain. |
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 05:11:27 -
[684] - Quote
Except I now have 12b ISK. |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
79
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 05:46:55 -
[685] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:I sort of wonder why CCP doesn't eliminate PLEX, and instead go back to aurum tokens, and add 30 days of gametime to the NES.
Having two currencies, tradeable PLEX and non-tradeable aurum, doesn't make sense to my pea of a brain.
My guess is that it wouldn't change anything. Instead of PLEX changing values AUR would move in a similar manner. |
Katja Andrard
WorldTradersGuild.Com
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 07:30:53 -
[686] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:I sort of wonder why CCP doesn't eliminate PLEX, and instead go back to aurum tokens, and add 30 days of gametime to the NES.
Having two currencies, tradeable PLEX and non-tradeable aurum, doesn't make sense to my pea of a brain. My guess is that it wouldn't change anything. Instead of PLEX changing values AUR would move in a similar manner.
Just a case of information equations.
The only thing that become impossible when you eliminate plex, and the reason it was introduced in the first place is the possibility of cashing in on the converse need of people to "buy ISK" and the people who farm ISK to pay their game time. It is a Win-Win-Double Win, CCP being the one double winning.
Aurum appeared a little after the new char engine and the forsaken idea of WiS came about, in order to avoid issues with the values having it being bought with plex. At the time they explained why Aurum.
Honestly, plex was the most elegant solution for the problem of people wanting to buy ISK and people wanting to play for free, and now other sub based games are copying it, such is its beauty.
|
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
675
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 11:04:42 -
[687] - Quote
As long as there's an item (AUR tokens) or currency (AUR) that's able to be hoarded then we'd be in the same position. The only way to stop this would to make PLEX bind on purchase, or go the WoW route and have a fixed exchange rate between ISK and game time set by CCP with game time being directly applied to your account. Those are boring though. This is EVE.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
112
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 20:59:58 -
[688] - Quote
Correct, but having a more divisible currency makes for a more dynamic market. |
goodlady Smith
Exit-Strategy Exit Strategy..
41
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 22:12:43 -
[689] - Quote
Down from 1.3B at the start of the weekend? is this the end Nah hold your plex its gonna be epic
Please like my posts it makes me feel better about the time I spend on the forums
Buy your drugs from: Charlinda Akheteru, AIA Pharmaceuticals
|
motie one
Secret Passage
21
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:11:17 -
[690] - Quote
Well, I personally cannot imagine CCP not taking an "ECB" action of some form. Plex is no longer a material good or a consumeable. This connection has been broken. Leaving it in this situation, would be foolhardy from a business viewpoint. CCP hardly need us to point out the reality of the situation, It is probably more a reluctance to frighten more players away, who are committed to high Plex holding Values.
Plex is a poor resevoir of wealth, Commodities and equipment manufactured by players, are a far better "sink" for the economy.
If people wish to invest in Plex, Multiple pilot licence certificates or Aurum tokens, they really should not expect CCP to protect them, against the best intrests of the Game, and the Overall Economy. There is no Goldman Sachs A bank to Big to fail. There is no one exempt.
A hard cap supported by NPC sell orders, and a free market below that point is my recommendation. A massive plex sale marginally above subscription rate, will prime the pump and slowly break up the Blockages in availabilityy, and probably, In reality, Very few NPC sell orders will happen as players will sell just below, knowing the days of forcing plex into stratospheric ranges are impossible. |
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
677
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:47:37 -
[691] - Quote
motie one wrote:The price simply is fatally decoupled from the Value of Plex as a service.
Uh, isn't the price exactly a result of what people are willing to pay for it?
You've mentioned 500m more than once now, you know there are people who can earn ten times that per day?
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
motie one
Secret Passage
21
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:52:57 -
[692] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:motie one wrote:The price simply is fatally decoupled from the Value of Plex as a service. Uh, isn't the price exactly a result of what people are willing to pay for it? You've mentioned 500m more than once now, you know there are people who can earn ten times that per day?
The issue is not price, It is price of an exchangeable commodity, no longer having a relationship to the inherent value of the commodity.
Bonds etc in the real world wre controlled within ranges, even stocks and shares are balanced within invisible hard caps by market makers. Currencies work within ranges controlled by central banks.
The free market operates within these ranges, Even if you never see them.
The price is NOT pure supply and demand, that is a simplistic understanding and wildly inaccurate. That HAS happened in the past, but every time It has there were catastrophic consequences, see south see bubble and Tulip ecenomics for a wider understanding.
Whether SOME people can afford to, and are willing to pay these prices is of no importance whatsoever. |
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
34493
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:54:35 -
[693] - Quote
I'd venture a guess that the number of players dropping with the increase of PLEX prices is simply alts not being funded any more. The majority of people just cashsub their main, because of various reasons.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
|
motie one
Secret Passage
21
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:56:42 -
[694] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:I'd venture a guess that the number of players dropping with the increase of PLEX prices is simply alts not being funded any more. The majority of people just cashsub their main, because of various reasons.
Most players I know have effectively Hibernated their alts. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
677
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:05:45 -
[695] - Quote
motie one wrote: The issue is not price, It is price of an exchangeable commodity, no longer having a relationship to the inherent value of the commodity.
Whether SOME people can afford to, and are willing to pay these prices is of no importance whatsoever.
Why is the inherent value what you say it is and not what the market says it is? If anything the inherent value is PLEX is solely that they can be used to to extend an account's game time by 30 days. There are some bottles of wine worth over $10k, do think those should have their price capped too?
EVE is not real life, it's just a game, a game where the developers promise you can live out your fantasies that would most certainly be illegal in real life, they promise us that the market is (mostly) player ran and that's what entices people. If you can't afford PLEX doing what you're doing then you either need to pay IRL $ for a game you're so invested in or find better ways to make ISK.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
motie one
Secret Passage
21
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:09:47 -
[696] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:motie one wrote: The issue is not price, It is price of an exchangeable commodity, no longer having a relationship to the inherent value of the commodity.
Whether SOME people can afford to, and are willing to pay these prices is of no importance whatsoever.
Why is the inherent value what you say it is and not what the market says it is? If anything the inherent value is PLEX is solely that they can be used to to extend an account's game time by 30 days. EVE is not real life, it's just a game, a game where the developers promise you can live out your fantasies that would most certainly be illegal in real life, they promise us that the market is (mostly) player ran and that's what entices people. If you can't afford PLEX doing what you're doing then you either need to pay IRL $ for a game you're so invested in or find better ways to make ISK.
You are quite free to hold onto your beliefs. You are quite free to not see the underlying instabilities. You are quite free to not understand that plex as a service is no longer working. You are quite free to not see how this if affecting concurrent sign ons and reduced players in space. You are quite free to fail to understand how this is damaging to the game.
And you are quite free to have a shocked and surprised expression on your face when CCP take the required action.
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
677
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:20:53 -
[697] - Quote
What are the underlying instabilities?
Why is PLEX not working as a service? I, and many others, pay for their accounts with PLEX, I also just purchased Fanfest tickets with PLEX. Why is it not working because they are out of the price range of some people? Nobody has ever said EVE is easy.
It may well affect the PCU, but it's possible that these are just alts and CCP wants players rather than alts. Here's a quote from a CCP dev that seems to suggest that there isn't a problem.
CCP Terminus wrote:We've seen over the years a fairly consistent percentage of our player base PLEX their accounts. If this percentage begins to decline consistently, and is not being counteracted by an increase in subscriber counts, then I'm sure we would take a look in to the system. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5995129#post5995129
How is it damaging the game? Back up your claims.
You are right that I would be shocked if CCP did as you suggested and fixed PLEX prices at 500m. I would then go out and buy hundreds of billions of ISK worth of PLEX, because without a system like the WoW has, CCP will soon run out of confiscated PLEX and we'll be back to where we are. Even if PLEX prices were somehow to never deviate from 500m, that would save me 4.2b/month and much, much more ISK on other things.
The question remains though, why 500m?
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
motie one
Secret Passage
21
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:28:42 -
[698] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:What are the underlying instabilities? Why is PLEX not working as a service? I, and many others, pay for their accounts with PLEX, I also just purchased Fanfest tickets with PLEX. Why is it not working because they are out of the price range of some people? Nobody has ever said EVE is easy. Edit: Actually I kind of understand this, if people are hoarding them rather than being used then you could consider it not working, but the people who paid $ for the PLEX so they could sell are getting what they want. Hmm, it's a toughie. It may well affect the PCU, but it's possible that these are just alts and CCP wants players rather than alts. Here's a quote from a CCP dev that seems to suggest that there isn't a problem. CCP Terminus wrote:We've seen over the years a fairly consistent percentage of our player base PLEX their accounts. If this percentage begins to decline consistently, and is not being counteracted by an increase in subscriber counts, then I'm sure we would take a look in to the system. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5995129#post5995129 How is it damaging the game? Back up your claims. You are right that I would be shocked if CCP did as you suggested and fixed PLEX prices at 500m. I would then go out and buy hundreds of billions of ISK worth of PLEX, because without a system like the WoW has, CCP will soon run out of confiscated PLEX and we'll be back to where we are. Even if PLEX prices were somehow to never deviate from 500m, that would save me 4.2b/month and much, much more ISK on other things. The question remains though, why 500m?
As i previusly stated, 500m is a figure that is a mid point between long term values when we did not see an ongoing slowing in the velocity of isk. When plex actually fulfilled it's function rather than as a pure means of wealth storage and speculative activity. CCP's own economists will determine an appropriate level, at the appropriate time. Buying hundreds of billions of isk worth of Plex would be pointless for you, as the value would never rise beyond the cap. You would be far better investing in player produced products, that have an intrinsic use, and are destroyed requiring replacement. This would benefit the wider economy as well as creating a temporary isk sink. Where plex investment just will Make CCP's bookkeeping somewhat of a problem, that needs to be dealt with in one way or another.
What we are witnessing has a name in economic theory.
I will leave this here for you.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
677
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:34:44 -
[699] - Quote
Why would the price never rise above 500m? What happens when all of CCP's confiscated PLEX are sold? If they magicked any into the game then they'd be losing money.
CCP's economists have already decided that any price is an okay price, why will they change their mind now?
It's good I follow this, then.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
motie one
Secret Passage
21
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:38:46 -
[700] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Why would the price never rise above 500m? What happens when all of CCP's confiscated PLEX are sold? If they magicked any into the game then they'd be losing money. CCP's economists have already decided that any price is an okay price, why will they change their mind now? It's good I follow this, then. Since we're just going in circles, I'll leave you to it now o7. Sorry, link states this page has been deleted.
It is probably Best for me to leave discussing economics to those who are willing to challenge their assumptions, and are willing to understand what is actually happening. Of course you may already be fully aware and just hoping the bubble continues, no matter what the greater effect is.
If it was, for example, Caracals, then it would not matter, but it is the key and critical service offered by the game that is being speculated with and used as a wealth store.
I wish you luck, there is always SOMEONE out there who will be the greater fool and fund your speculation.
Until there isn't. |
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Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:58:41 -
[701] - Quote
motie one wrote:Well, I personally cannot imagine CCP not taking an "Central Bank" action of some form.
Again CCP infered plex should cost more than 1 Billion isk last time they intervened when plex jumped to 1 Billion from 800. If it hits 1.5B they just might intervene if it happens quickly; if it takes months (as it should) they likely would not - because if the past is any indicator - if it slowly increases to an amount (1.5B in this example) - it will drop when next years summer begins. At which point it would be in the 1.2-.1.3 range and be a good price for that year; until september/october happens again and the base price for the next year is set at 1.5B and so on.
Did plex spike a large amount as opposed to a gradual increase this year? Yes it did. Will people unsub alts because of this? Yes they will. Will people quit the game because of this? Not unless they were already on their way out.
Plex always goes up; and this is beneficial for the game in several ways. The biggest benefit is the game sheds weight in the amount of illicit users who are botting or otherwise cheating to obtain isk to sell. High Plex Prices are the biggest blow that can be struck as far as black markets and RMT are concerned - because legitimate ISK from CCP is cheaper - Which allows players to legitimately purchase their isk in the form of PLEX from CCP without the premium tax of doing it the right way. The higher the price of plex - the less valuable EVE is as a potential black market money making activity.
Plex is worth much more than 1.2B - and 200m is an increase we could have expected this year as normal. However - this year we had a very successful plex drive taking thousands of plex out of circulation - we also saw skins introduced and many plex converted into aurum. The sinks for plex this year have been tremendous and as such the peak this year should be much higher.
The prices; spikes and trends we saw of years past; all with their own doomsayer threads; are incomprable based on the amount of plex sinks and uses/conversions for plex we have today. PLEX appreciated in value this year - it buys skins. So it can be expected that in additional to the normal price hike; an additional hike occur based on its new found demand.
The price of PLEX is ordinary for a month or two from today - given what happened this year I don't think its out of line; we should see higher peaks as winter commences. You say PLEX is not worth 1.2B and think it should be valued at 500m. I say plex should be 1.2B and more and I have provided details as to why this would be the case. This year is different and you should expect CCP knows this and will take it into account. Do not expect CCP to step in.
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motie one
Secret Passage
22
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:07:24 -
[702] - Quote
Do not focus on the price. Whilst that is indicative, the actual issue is what is Happening to plex as a service.
If it still functions well, as intended for the service, the velocity of isk is stable, and signed in players is stable or growing, then all is well, people can speculate away,driving it to any price, and buy as a store freely.
If however the removal of plex from the active economy, by it being used as a wealth store, and the high prices due to limited availability and rampant speculation, is preventing it being used MAINLY as a service, leading to reduced player logins, and the overall economy showing a reduction in the velocity of money. Then there is a critical and existential need to deal with the issue.
CCP have the full data and can decide whether these concerns have validity, and act accordingly. |
Katja Andrard
WorldTradersGuild.Com
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:57:01 -
[703] - Quote
And that all assuming that plex prices are subject of reactive control. Again.
Interesting enough, we might have to ponder some facts:
- If CCP were to dump plex in the market to control the prices, it would be actually CCP unfairly "bailing out" the people who put up buy orders filled by internal plex supply. Which I might not take as something very "CCPist". - The reverse is also true. If CCP were to buy plex to dry up the market, they would be in fact giving ISK for people from nothing.
The most reasonable outcome if it were done by that way is that the control of plex prices would end up being a ISK generator system that would be abused to oblivion by anyone and their neighbour.
FYI, that is what banks do in the bank internal market of IBB (a kind of bank only market of debt), and I know that doest end up well because I used to work in a bank.
So you gotta come up with another theory on how plex price is controlled by CCP.
I should remind you that CCP does have had, and I dont know, but assume, still do, in house finance geeks to control the way the market goes, and that is why the tools, the techniques and the aspect of the market is very kin to its IRL form. |
motie one
Secret Passage
22
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 22:00:03 -
[704] - Quote
Katja Andrard wrote:And that all assuming that plex prices are subject of reactive control. Again.
Interesting enough, we might have to ponder some facts:
- If CCP were to dump plex in the market to control the prices, it would be actually CCP unfairly "bailing out" the people who put up buy orders filled by internal plex supply. Which I might not take as something very "CCPist". - The reverse is also true. If CCP were to buy plex to dry up the market, they would be in fact giving ISK for people from nothing.
The most reasonable outcome if it were done by that way is that the control of plex prices would end up being a ISK generator system that would be abused to oblivion by anyone and their neighbour.
FYI, that is what banks do in the bank internal market of IBB (a kind of bank only market of debt), and I know that doest end up well because I used to work in a bank.
So you gotta come up with another theory on how plex price is controlled by CCP.
I should remind you that CCP does have had, and I dont know, but assume, still do, in house finance geeks to control the way the market goes, and that is why the tools, the techniques and the aspect of the market is very kin to its IRL form.
"Dumping" plex is a wasteful and inefficient process that only yields short term gains. It is a primitive process that gives no opportunity for sterilisation. This is not being suggested at this point as it would be not only wasteful, unfair and inefficient. It would have minor benefit and not restore the role of plex as a service. The action needs to come from the sell side of the equation. |
Katja Andrard
WorldTradersGuild.Com
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 22:21:06 -
[705] - Quote
motie one wrote:Katja Andrard wrote:And that all assuming that plex prices are subject of reactive control. Again.
Interesting enough, we might have to ponder some facts:
- If CCP were to dump plex in the market to control the prices, it would be actually CCP unfairly "bailing out" the people who put up buy orders filled by internal plex supply. Which I might not take as something very "CCPist". - The reverse is also true. If CCP were to buy plex to dry up the market, they would be in fact giving ISK for people from nothing.
The most reasonable outcome if it were done by that way is that the control of plex prices would end up being a ISK generator system that would be abused to oblivion by anyone and their neighbour.
FYI, that is what banks do in the bank internal market of IBB (a kind of bank only market of debt), and I know that doest end up well because I used to work in a bank.
So you gotta come up with another theory on how plex price is controlled by CCP.
I should remind you that CCP does have had, and I dont know, but assume, still do, in house finance geeks to control the way the market goes, and that is why the tools, the techniques and the aspect of the market is very kin to its IRL form. "Dumping" plex is a wasteful and inefficient process that only yields short term gains. It is a primitive process that gives no opportunity for sterilisation. The problem is that a commodity that is a service, has become illiquid for it's primary function, due in the main by it being used as a wealth store with the chance of speculative gains. Just providing a temporary burst of liquidity would be absorbed by this process in moments. Drying up liquidity is totally contrary to needs and not considered. "Dumping" is not being suggested at this point as it would be not only wasteful, unfair and inefficient. It would have minor benefit and not restore the role of plex as a service. The action needs to come from the sell side of the equation. NPC sell orders, would effectively cap the market, with free trade operating below this cap, as done in markets, and central banks worldwide today. (Just dressed up a bit to not frighten the unaware) think swiss central bank.
Ah it has.
4 times in this post, and to exhaustion in others, almost everytime you talk about plex prices or market in this forums someone come up with the genial idea that plex prices are controlled by CCP dumping or drying plex.
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motie one
Secret Passage
22
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 22:24:28 -
[706] - Quote
Katja Andrard wrote:motie one wrote:Katja Andrard wrote:And that all assuming that plex prices are subject of reactive control. Again.
Interesting enough, we might have to ponder some facts:
- If CCP were to dump plex in the market to control the prices, it would be actually CCP unfairly "bailing out" the people who put up buy orders filled by internal plex supply. Which I might not take as something very "CCPist". - The reverse is also true. If CCP were to buy plex to dry up the market, they would be in fact giving ISK for people from nothing.
The most reasonable outcome if it were done by that way is that the control of plex prices would end up being a ISK generator system that would be abused to oblivion by anyone and their neighbour.
FYI, that is what banks do in the bank internal market of IBB (a kind of bank only market of debt), and I know that doest end up well because I used to work in a bank.
So you gotta come up with another theory on how plex price is controlled by CCP.
I should remind you that CCP does have had, and I dont know, but assume, still do, in house finance geeks to control the way the market goes, and that is why the tools, the techniques and the aspect of the market is very kin to its IRL form. "Dumping" plex is a wasteful and inefficient process that only yields short term gains. It is a primitive process that gives no opportunity for sterilisation. The problem is that a commodity that is a service, has become illiquid for it's primary function, due in the main by it being used as a wealth store with the chance of speculative gains. Just providing a temporary burst of liquidity would be absorbed by this process in moments. Drying up liquidity is totally contrary to needs and not considered. "Dumping" is not being suggested at this point as it would be not only wasteful, unfair and inefficient. It would have minor benefit and not restore the role of plex as a service. The action needs to come from the sell side of the equation. NPC sell orders, would effectively cap the market, with free trade operating below this cap, as done in markets, and central banks worldwide today. (Just dressed up a bit to not frighten the unaware) think swiss central bank. Ah it has. 4 times in this post, and to exhaustion in others, almost everytime you talk about plex prices or market in this forums someone come up with the genial idea that plex prices are controlled by CCP dumping or drying plex.
Well, people believe in Fairies and fair taxation too! They would be a lot more professional than that. Just buying and selling plex on the market, Naked, would be quite silly, and totally pointless. |
Katja Andrard
WorldTradersGuild.Com
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 22:28:02 -
[707] - Quote
motie one wrote:Katja Andrard wrote:motie one wrote:Katja Andrard wrote:And that all assuming that plex prices are subject of reactive control. Again. (...) "Dumping" plex is a wasteful and inefficient process that only yields short term gains. It is a primitive process that gives no opportunity for sterilisation. The problem is that a commodity that is a service, has become illiquid for it's primary function, due in the main by it being used as a wealth store with the chance of speculative gains. Just providing a temporary burst of liquidity would be absorbed by this process in moments. Drying up liquidity is totally contrary to needs and not considered. "Dumping" is not being suggested at this point as it would be not only wasteful, unfair and inefficient. It would have minor benefit and not restore the role of plex as a service. The action needs to come from the sell side of the equation. NPC sell orders, would effectively cap the market, with free trade operating below this cap, as done in markets, and central banks worldwide today. (Just dressed up a bit to not frighten the unaware) think swiss central bank. Ah it has. 4 times in this post, and to exhaustion in others, almost everytime you talk about plex prices or market in this forums someone come up with the genial idea that plex prices are controlled by CCP dumping or drying plex. Well, people believe in Fairies and fair taxation too! They would be a lot more professional than that. Just buying and selling plex on the market, Naked, would be quite silly, and totally pointless.
Edited, but still the same thing. But I understand that as most people doing combat are not fighter pilots, and most people doing industry are not engineers, so must traders not be market experts in the average.
LOL |
motie one
Secret Passage
22
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 22:34:19 -
[708] - Quote
Katja Andrard wrote:motie one wrote:Katja Andrard wrote:motie one wrote:Katja Andrard wrote:And that all assuming that plex prices are subject of reactive control. Again. (...) "Dumping" plex is a wasteful and inefficient process that only yields short term gains. It is a primitive process that gives no opportunity for sterilisation. The problem is that a commodity that is a service, has become illiquid for it's primary function, due in the main by it being used as a wealth store with the chance of speculative gains. Just providing a temporary burst of liquidity would be absorbed by this process in moments. Drying up liquidity is totally contrary to needs and not considered. "Dumping" is not being suggested at this point as it would be not only wasteful, unfair and inefficient. It would have minor benefit and not restore the role of plex as a service. The action needs to come from the sell side of the equation. NPC sell orders, would effectively cap the market, with free trade operating below this cap, as done in markets, and central banks worldwide today. (Just dressed up a bit to not frighten the unaware) think swiss central bank. Ah it has. 4 times in this post, and to exhaustion in others, almost everytime you talk about plex prices or market in this forums someone come up with the genial idea that plex prices are controlled by CCP dumping or drying plex. Well, people believe in Fairies and fair taxation too! They would be a lot more professional than that. Just buying and selling plex on the market, Naked, would be quite silly, and totally pointless. Edited, but still the same thing. But I understand that as most people doing combat are not fighter pilots, and most people doing industry are not engineers, so must traders not be market experts in the average. LOL
Very true, most trading in eve is absolutely not that, apart from possibly some major alliances, on the whole, playing at speculation, or arbatrage, but that's fine, it is a game. |
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 22:44:54 -
[709] - Quote
I had a post; and it was emotionally charged and against the ideas of Motie One. I have decided it does not forward or do any justice to this thread or the ideas within and I have removed it. The premise was more than 30 seconds of thought would likely be required to formulate any idea that wouldn't be torn to hell within seconds by more experienced players with no economic experience. |
motie one
Secret Passage
22
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 22:56:19 -
[710] - Quote
Leetmcfeet wrote:I had a post; and it was emotionally charged and against the ideas of Motie One. I have decided it does not forward or do any justice to this thread or the ideas within and I have removed it. The premise was more than 30 seconds of thought would likely be required to formulate any idea that wouldn't be torn to hell within seconds by more experienced players with no economic experience. Just Tell the swiss Central bank, just how bad an idea it is. Or market makers, or..... Or....... Or...... The whole international finance community.
But if you are talking Exploit? They are less permitted in EVE than the real world and much clearer to see here.
Permaban incoming in 3...2...1 |
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 01:38:50 -
[711] - Quote
So CCP would benefit themselves and the game... by emulating European central banks? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1091
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 03:38:58 -
[712] - Quote
I don't know what you people are talking about.
PLEX is still massively underpriced. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5364
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 05:38:51 -
[713] - Quote
There are no stupid ideas, only stupid people...
...
One of the hilarious things I've seen here is the idea that CCP should dump PLEX on the in-game market at a lower amount in ISK than the market is presently paying, and this would punish speculators.
...
...
...
REALLY? People actually think this?
How would selling 1000 PLEX at a billion ISK each punish speculators?
A few players would buy one or two each, then someone with a liquid trillion would buy the remaining 950 and resell them over time. CCP would literally lose over ten grand in potential future revenue in order to give an ISK handout to a trillionaire.
I do expect CCP to intervene with a PLEX sale soon, which will not be a conscious strategy to adjust the price of PLEX, but instead a strategy to profit from the recent increases in price. And if someone with a liquid trillion buys up a lot of those PLEX from the market during the sale, CCP will likely end up selling more.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
|
Fornost Fornostsen
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 09:55:52 -
[714] - Quote
As an almost 2 years old trader, there was a moment when I switched from "I wish i had the ISK to trade this item" to "I whish I found an item to invest my ISK".
When you begin to have tens of billions of liquid ISKs I think you can follow 2 paths: 1) Start speculation(s) = High risks / High rewards 2) Stockpile ISKs / Assets = Low risks / Low rewards
Personaly, I choose the latter, because I prefer spending time blowing ships. And I suppose a lot of people agree with me.
Now, what's the best asset to stockpile? Nobody knows it, like in real life. But PLEXs are the best "retirement fund".
I know that if I have the ISKs to afford 24 PLEXs, I will play for free for two years, whatever happens to their price.
And if you think how many people have enough ISKs to afford a fitted Titan (about 90 PLEXs, or 7,5 yrs of game time) you can figure how many people have enough ISKs to stockpile tens of PLEXs to be sure to be able to play the game for free in next years.
And they probably will not 'panic sell' if the price begins to fall, because it's a "retirement fund".
What if CCP shuts servers down in the meantime? Your PLEXs will be worth nothing, but so will do your liquid ISKs and/or your assets. |
Katja Andrard
WorldTradersGuild.Com
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 10:13:31 -
[715] - Quote
The people IRL have been working the popular consensus that market is driven by supply and demand for centuries, it is not so far fetched that people in EVE do the same. If you take a time to look at eve market, you will see that there is a place of powerful control over prices in a given hub by just placing a large order, lowering the prices gradually and to make people lower theirs in the hopes that works, then when you have a bunch of wanna be traders with orders as low as the price you would buy, you take of your order and buy them off before they can change their orders. Is the "Average Down", when your own prices being bought in low from a large order sum up with the cheap product you crashed the price, in average, making your bulk have cheap cost.
The reverse, buying higher in the hopes people will place orders to rise you, in order to artificially change the price up so you can afterwards dump your product in the market by higher price, the "Average up" where the product you bought at inflated prices dont matter as in average your sale at inflated prices will cover it and open window for the cheap product you bought to be also sold at inflated prices, in average granting profit.
Those only work in EVE for 2 reasons: 1) People believe in supply and demand law - 2) People act as if ISK was play money
That is pretty much why no matter how politics go, IRL or in EVE, the money doesnt really change hands equally, and concentrate in the hands of those who already have the money, and know how to use it.
But in the "Big Picture" the one who owns the EVE universe, CCP, is the richest power in EVE Universe, and not only owns the means of making things in EVE Universe, but the power of NPC corps, as mentioned.
In a dev blog you will find the concepts of "ISK mine" and "ISK sink", which are the means on how CCP controls the total ammount of ISK pottentially ingame. While the "its just a game folks" simple dont care (tl;dr and what not), the traders ingame are very much devouring all the material over ships, prints, mines and sinks, in order to understand how to avoid sinks.
While we do that in the internal market of EVE, CCP does that outside the EVE market, much like nations do with colonies and neo-colonies IRL.
So for that reason, they dont need to buy or sell plex in EVE market to control its prices. Like IRL central banks, they tweak the ratio of earning and losing ISK ingame to tweak the value of plex.
While some people assume the value of plex is derived from their own interests, the savvy trader will know that the value of plex is related directly to an equilibrium between the people farming ISK and the people sinking ISK. The priciple is very simple: Reasonable farming ability.
If ISK is to costly earned by plex, prices too low, it does not matter how the market is flooded, there is no interest in sell plex. If it is too costly to farm ISK for a plex, no matter how much the market is dry, there is no people buying it.
So the control is applied there, the "GDP" of New Eden. IT changes, plex prices changes naturally. We traders have little to say over and below the opening of the will of farmers and sinkers. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1092
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 10:14:26 -
[716] - Quote
Fornost Fornostsen wrote:Personaly, I choose the latter, because I prefer spending time blowing ships. And I suppose a lot of people agree with me. I certainly do.
Fornost Fornostsen wrote:But PLEXs are the best "retirement fund".
I know that if I have the ISKs to afford 24 PLEXs, I will play for free for two years, whatever happens to their price. Indeed. Unless someone finds a way to turn me into an immortal and I become a RL pod pilot, I'm subbed in this game until I die.
Fornost Fornostsen wrote:And they probably will not 'panic sell' if the price begins to fall, because it's a "retirement fund".
What if CCP shuts servers down in the meantime? Your PLEXs will be worth nothing, but so will do your liquid ISKs and/or your assets. Yep, when the apocalypse comes, none of these minor concerns will matter.
Plus it's important to remember that PLEX doesn't just pay for subs. I've paid for about 40 collectors editions, HD steams, loads of dual training and a whole bunch of other stuff with PLEX. Someday I'm hoping to be able to make it to Fanfest and eve-Vegas and when I do I'll be buying those tickets with PLEX too.
Generally speaking, the RL buying power of PLEX makes it somewhat distinct from pretty much everything else in EVE. |
motie one
Secret Passage
27
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 18:21:17 -
[717] - Quote
Zihao wrote:So CCP would benefit themselves and the game... by emulating European central banks?
Well I am pleased to confim that your Geography, if not your political awareness is accurate.
Switzerland is in Europe but not in either the EU or the Eurozone.
The swiss central bank has a cap against the euro because of the issue of the swiss frank becoming a store of wealth harming the wider economy, and manipulated mercilessly by speculators.
Sound familiar?
It has been stunningly succsessful in preventing ongoing excesses, and the markets trade freely beneath this cap with confidence, efficiently.
When the speculators made an attempt recently to drive the frank out of it's range, It crushed them ..... Mercilessly.
So to those who claim they would break any attempt by CCP, just make sure you have deeper pockets than the Central bank, bearing in mind they can issue, and sterilise Plex at will. |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
129
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 19:34:24 -
[718] - Quote
How do you quantify "excess," and why is it desirable to stifle this ambiguous thing? |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
79
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 21:09:43 -
[719] - Quote
Why do you keep claiming that the Swiss central bank have a hard currency cap? They removed that back in January. |
motie one
Secret Passage
27
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 04:19:05 -
[720] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Why do you keep claiming that the Swiss central bank have a hard currency cap? They removed that back in January. No, no they did not (well they announced they had) , they allowed it to reset it to a new level, the currency is still receiving central bank intervention (together with negative interest rates) but I agree the "public" cap removal sent shockwaves through the market, burning speculators, quite thoroughly. |
|
motie one
Secret Passage
27
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 05:26:49 -
[721] - Quote
Zihao wrote:How do you quantify "excess," and why is it desirable to stifle this ambiguous thing?
Excess is where the primary and intended use of a good or product ceases to function in the intended manner. If the velocity of the rate of exchange into pilot services, has decreased to the point that these are only a secondary use for the product then the alternative uses (wealth storage, and speculative gambling) are "in excess"
Any excess or deficit in player produced commodities are largely self correcting, demand can shift, prices will adjust as production waxes and wanes, player actions, lead to corrections. An excess in any one area, eventually balances.
Pilots services are Unique, player actions on their own are unable to balance, actions taken by other players. If thousands of plex are frozen in long term wealth storage, players are unable to mine or manufacture or seek out more to rebalance the reduced velocity and availability. They can be considered in excess in those areas, and in defecit in availability to turn into pilots services such as licence extention or multiple player training.
This cannot be self correcting for this product. The mechanisms are not available to players. plex holds a unique place in the economy, and players have ceased to remember this and are treating it like any other item. This is not a sustainable expectation.
Plex was not designed, or suitable as a means of long term wealth storage, with an ever increasing expectation of gains.
This is the role of player produced commodities.
Plex was designed as a means,to sell a commodity for real money, that in the end, possibly afer passing through another players hands, would be used to purchase pilot services. It is now ceasing to fulfill that role due to the above. |
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 07:30:16 -
[722] - Quote
Motie people are still putting newly introduced plex onto the market. Players are still obtaining and consuming plex. Players holding onto plex - does not stop others from introducing new plex into the game. There is no shortage of PLEX being consumed and leaving the economy as many 'wealth reserves' were converted into aurum to pick up skins; to make use of power of two promotion etc.
Within this thread exists testimony of players purchasing and putting plex into the market. The volume of PLEX trading hands is large; there is a healthy amount in circulation for this time of year. PLEX is a player produced comodity; it only enters the eve universe when an individual pays a premium in real world currency for it to enter the market.
The demand for plex is ever increasing as EVE ages and its price in part correlates with this demand. Your disatisfaction with other players sometimes dealing with plex in a fashion you deem outside of its expected usage; does not change any of these facts.
|
motie one
Secret Passage
27
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 07:40:25 -
[723] - Quote
Leetmcfeet wrote:Motie people are still putting newly introduced plex onto the market. Players are still obtaining and consuming plex. Players holding onto plex - does not stop others from introducing new plex into the game. There is no shortage of PLEX being consumed and leaving the economy as many 'wealth reserves' were converted into aurum to pick up skins; to make use of power of two promotion etc.
Within this thread exists testimony of players purchasing and putting plex into the market. The volume of PLEX trading hands is large; there is a healthy amount in circulation for this time of year. PLEX is a player produced comodity; it only enters the eve universe when an individual pays a premium in real world currency for it to enter the market.
The demand for plex is ever increasing as EVE ages and its price in part correlates with this demand. Your disatisfaction with other players sometimes dealing with plex in a fashion you deem outside of its expected usage; does not change any of these facts.
Whilst people are certainly redeeming plex into Pilot services and CCP authorised real world services and products, the percentage of Plex redeemed in reletionship to the Plex in circulation is the matter in discussion.
If as you contend there is a vibrant and active velocity of Plex right the way through from production to final consumption, then any price imaginable is acceptable, 1,3,5 100 billion! It doesn't matter.
If as it appears this is not the case, then there is an issue.
CCP are the only people who can know this definitively, but current observations in the game, that anyone can witness, does indicate that the situation is anything but healthy. But naturally there are many with a vested interest in "bubbling" assets, and as there is no other way for players to purchase plex for isk, there is nothing to stop that process in players hands, other than reducing their need to play along, by unsubning alts, and ceasing dual pilot training. There is only one solution and That rests with CCP |
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 08:12:53 -
[724] - Quote
Explain the link between a variable amount of plex being stored and how you feel CCP must intervene. I am having trouble following the jump. For what reason do you feel plex which is not in circulation is affecting anything when it does not exist as far as the market is concerned? Is it that you are concerned players are paying more for plex than they might have if all existing plex were available to the market at all times until consumption? If so; of what matter is it if PLEX costs more so long as players are still buying it?
Your theorized case of people quitting is not supported by any statistics. Every year players complain about the winter prices of PLEX- Every year the doomsayers suggest they will quit the game - In reality what appears to happen is they shed extra weight (unsub alt accounts) and resub those accounts as ISK and conditions permit. What does however happen is more players discontinue subbing via PLEX and instead pay for their subscription via credit card which allows CCP to realise any potential profits sooner rather than later (which is the case with consumables gamers purchase whose real world costs are not realised until the consumables are actually consumed).
Simply put; I don't agree that players are quitting in droves due to ISK cost of plex. I don't think CCP is losing any money with plex being 1.2B as opposed to say 300m. Should you be able to better support a link between damage being done to the game and the amount of plex being stored than one previously mentioned idea might be of some value.
Plex ultimately having an experation date - at which point it would be automatically added to the game time on the account where which its stored - is an interesting idea and might warrant further exploration. The other ideas I have seen presented can have catastrophic economic consequences as far as I am concerned. Seeing a 1 year experiation date added to all current and future plex to allow a years time for people to move the product; might be reasonable if it would have a positive effect for CCP. This again is an interesting concept to consider for the sport of it - as to suggest why not develope that idea and see where it leads- what the drawbacks; benefits and consequences could possibly be. |
motie one
Secret Passage
27
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 08:20:32 -
[725] - Quote
Leetmcfeet wrote:Explain the link between a variable amount of plex being stored and how you feel CCP must intervene. I am having trouble following the jump. For what reason do you feel plex which is not in circulation is affecting anything when it does not exist as far as the market is concerned? Is it that you are concerned players are paying more for plex than they might have if all existing plex were available to the market at all times until consumption? If so; of what matter is it if PLEX costs more so long as players are still buying it?
Your theorized case of people quitting is not supported by any statistics. Every year players complain about the winter prices of PLEX- Every year the doomsayers suggest they will quit the game - In reality what appears to happen is they shed extra weight (unsub alt accounts) and resub those accounts as ISK and conditions permit. What does however happen is more players discontinue subbing via PLEX and instead pay for their subscription via credit card which allows CCP to realise any potential profits sooner rather than later (which is the case with consumables gamers purchase whose real world costs are not realised until the consumables are actually consumed).
Simply put; I don't agree that players are quitting in droves due to ISK cost of plex. I don't think CCP is losing any money with plex being 1.2B as opposed to say 300m. Should you be able to better support a link between damage being done to the game and the amount of plex being stored than one previously mentioned idea might be of some value.
Plex ultimately having an experation date - at which point it would be automatically added to the game time on the account where which its stored - is an interesting idea and might warrant further exploration. The other ideas I have seen presented can have catastrophic economic consequences as far as I am concerned. Seeing a 1 year experiation date added to all current and future plex to allow a years time for people to move the product; might be reasonable if it would have a positive effect for CCP. This again is an interesting concept to consider for the sport of it - as to suggest why not develope that idea and see where it leads- what the drawbacks; benefits and consequences could possibly be.
Clearly, If you do not believe that there is a link between the limited liquidity of Plex having an effect on the amount of redemptions of plex within the game, then there is little I can say to change your conclusions.
Let me ask you, do you see no connection between this and the reduction of concurrent players, the unsubbing of alts, the reduction of multiple pilot training and the velocity of isk in the economy? The very reasons for Plex to exist? This isk for example would be buying these services and is currently not for most players. It is just padding users balances. Waiting for the day when actually buying plex on the market to use, once again made some sort of sense.
If you cannot see this just wait for CCP to act to rebalance the serious imbalance, and then reconsider. |
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 08:30:54 -
[726] - Quote
motie one wrote:
Let me ask you, do you see no connection between this and the reduction of concurrent players, the unsubbing of alts, the reduction of multiple pilot training and the velocity of isk in the economy? This isk for example would be buying these services and is currently not for most players. It is just padding users balances. Waiting.
If you cannot see this just wait for CCP to act to rebalance the serious imbalance, and then reconsider.
You're attributing a loss of concurent players to PLEX which is simply not true. Phoebe; Sov and various forms of bitching have lowered concurent players in the cases where players are actually leaving the game- in other cases people are cutting the fat until a time where which they find use in their alts and sub them again. The game has undergone massive changes which fundamentally completely change the way the game is played. People left because they were unhappy and because when your friends quit - you quit. When you've had your group for several years and people leave; you leave too because you are left with nothing. Those players may or may not return; but PLEX will hardly have anything to do with it. |
motie one
Secret Passage
27
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 08:33:36 -
[727] - Quote
I will answer you attempt at distraction seperately. You raise the suggestion "for sport" as you put ir to place a time limit for plex. Whilst it would remove plex as a long term storage, for that plex, it would simply be retraded for a fresh one in the market, and the whole market would have to be redesigned to display the remaining life. As you know that will never happen. Nice attempt to waste time. |
motie one
Secret Passage
27
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 08:36:04 -
[728] - Quote
Leetmcfeet wrote:motie one wrote:
Let me ask you, do you see no connection between this and the reduction of concurrent players, the unsubbing of alts, the reduction of multiple pilot training and the velocity of isk in the economy? This isk for example would be buying these services and is currently not for most players. It is just padding users balances. Waiting.
If you cannot see this just wait for CCP to act to rebalance the serious imbalance, and then reconsider.
You're attributing a loss of concurent players to PLEX which is simply not true. Phoebe; Sov and various forms of bitching have lowered concurent players in the cases where players are actually leaving the game- in other cases people are cutting the fat until a time where which they find use in their alts and sub them again. The game has undergone massive changes which fundamentally completely change the way the game is played. People left because they were unhappy and because when your friends quit - you quit. When you've had your group for several years and people leave; you leave too because you are left with nothing. Those players may or may not return; but PLEX will hardly have anything to do with it.
Please tell me how any human being, in their right mind will use their reserves to keep alts or multiple training going, on a regular basis! At the current vastly inflated value of plex.
Because most people are rational. The actions are as we witness. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1095
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 08:37:04 -
[729] - Quote
Oh, this thread is getting salty. I may have to start reading it again. |
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 09:07:28 -
[730] - Quote
For whatever reason you cannot understand PLEX is worth more than 1.2B isk. its your inexperience and ineptitude towards matters regarding economics; demand and any number of related facets. As such you are in for a very dissapointing time with EVE - because what you want - is not going to happen period
Plex will rise year in and year out and will not cease to rise on a yearly basis until the game dies. Your unsupported bubble theory where the sky falls because plex is at a value more than its worth - is ridiculous. Its price is within normal bounds for this year. Rises in winter; Falls in summer. Its not the housing bubble; its not tulips its not the credit crunch. This is EVE love it or hate it. |
|
motie one
Secret Passage
27
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 09:11:23 -
[731] - Quote
Leetmcfeet wrote:For whatever reason you cannot understand PLEX is worth more than 1.2B isk. its yout inexperience and ineptitude towards matters regarding economics; demand and any number of related facets. As such you are in for a very dissapointing time with EVE - because what you want - is not going to happen period
Plex will rise year in and year out and will not cease to rise on a yearly basis until the game dies. Your unsupported bubble theory where the sky falls because plex is at a value more than its worth - is ridiculous. Its price is within normal bounds for this year. Rises in winter; Falls in summer. Its not the housing bubble; its not tulips its not the credit crunch. This is EVE love it or hate it.
Oh, is this where you write me another mail, telling me that I am new? Wrong. I am a student and don't understand economics? Wrong and wrong, and I shouldn't argue with my betters?
Yes, I know, I know, you cannot understand why anyone would possibly disagree that pumping plex into the stratosphere is a great idea, and so long as you get rich who cares anyway?
I know it is a shock to you, but it may be possible that people with a lifetimes experience may not agree with you? |
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 09:21:10 -
[732] - Quote
motie one wrote:
Oh, is this where you write me another mail, telling me that I am new? Wrong. I am a student and don't understand economics? Wrong and wrong, and I shouldn't argue with my betters?
sic:
"You are dealing with people; some of whom have studied EVE onlines economy for several years. Still others believe the sky is falling and will say to all doom is here and the world will surely crumble. You are combating an economy which has been molded over a decade - with little to no knowledge or experience in the area and an inability to seperate our world from the real world. If the real world suffers economic collapse; it recovers. If EVE suffers collapse it ceases to exist as it can no longer make payroll.
The ideas you have forumulated are very short sighted and based on a lack of understanding of EVE - I can see you don't have the knowledge; experience or dedication the EVE staff consists of. your 101 course might be the beggining of a life of knowledge and attunement in the way of real world economies and you will likely pick up bits along the way which would allow you to better understand our economy - but a decade from now you will laugh at your self and what little you knew and how shortsighted you were. I am not saying you need to complete your doctorate before you comment; but realise you are competing against doctoral level knowledge of real world professionals. You no doubt know of EVEs fame and its reliance on economists - on world renown economists whose work here is well regarded and respected.
If you want to tackle the issue at least think about it for a few months for a few hours each day; because you are fighting a school of thought which it was built on; that studied the economy every day for just short of a decade. A paid professional in the field whose work was EVE; whose joy was EVE - whose life was EVE. If you want to present ideas; present ideas that work in eve and cut the rhetoric. Whatever you do; don't cite examples from last semester; last year or what you picked up paying attention in class. Because they don't support your ideas or oppiniions. Use good quality sources that are relevant - cite other occurances in EVE; in video games.
Tulips are the first page in the book of a different genre; try the last page - read that; than read the series on EVE; the volumes and collections - than read the work of Dr. Eyjolfur - Study EVE s economy and than come up with an idea. I am getting caught up in the lack of any relevant idea and the bad examples which do not demonstrate or assist your points - not the price of plex.
You are new to our game; Our Economy; I don't hold that against you - I hold your short sigtedness and inappropriate citing of sources against you. They don't forward your oppinion and exist as nothing more than gradeschool rhetoric. You should at least take a course on EVE before trying to fix or bankrupt it. "
Moties Response:
"this character is a posting alt, I have played the game for 5 years. I was employed in an international bank in the trading room until my retirement. your assumptions are amusing. Good luck pumping plex. Pity you do not realise just how different a commodity it is."
That was the end of that correspondence and is the full correspondence |
motie one
Secret Passage
27
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 09:23:12 -
[733] - Quote
Leetmcfeet wrote:motie one wrote:
Oh, is this where you write me another mail, telling me that I am new? Wrong. I am a student and don't understand economics? Wrong and wrong, and I shouldn't argue with my betters?
sic: "You are dealing with people; some of whom have studied EVE onlines economy for several years. Still others believe the sky is falling and will say to all doom is here and the world will surely crumble. You are combating an economy which has been molded over a decade - with little to no knowledge or experience in the area and an inability to seperate our world from the real world. If the real world suffers economic collapse; it recovers. If EVE suffers collapse it ceases to exist as it can no longer make payroll. The ideas you have forumulated are very short sighted and based on a lack of understanding of EVE - I can see you don't have the knowledge; experience or dedication the EVE staff consists of. your 101 course might be the beggining of a life of knowledge and attunement in the way of real world economies and you will likely pick up bits along the way which would allow you to better understand our economy - but a decade from now you will laugh at your self and what little you knew and how shortsighted you were. I am not saying you need to complete your doctorate before you comment; but realise you are competing against doctoral level knowledge of real world professionals. You no doubt know of EVEs fame and its reliance on economists - on world renown economists whose work here is well regarded and respected. If you want to tackle the issue at least think about it for a few months for a few hours each day; because you are fighting a school of thought which it was built on; that studied the economy every day for just short of a decade. A paid professional in the field whose work was EVE; whose joy was EVE - whose life was EVE. If you want to present ideas; present ideas that work in eve and cut the rhetoric. Whatever you do; don't cite examples from last semester; last year or what you picked up paying attention in class. Because they don't support your ideas or oppiniions. Use good quality sources that are relevant - cite other occurances in EVE; in video games. Tulips are the first page in the book of a different genre; try the last page - read that; than read the series on EVE; the volumes and collections - than read the work of Dr. Eyjolfur - Study EVE s economy and than come up with an idea. I am getting caught up in the lack of any relevant idea and the bad examples which do not demonstrate or assist your points - not the price of plex. You are new to our game; Our Economy; I don't hold that against you - I hold your short sigtedness and inappropriate citing of sources against you. They don't forward your oppinion and exist as nothing more than gradeschool rhetoric. You should at least take a course on EVE before trying to fix or bankrupt it. " Moties Response: "this character is a posting alt, I have played the game for 5 years. I was employed in an international bank in the trading room until my retirement. your assumptions are amusing. Good luck pumping plex. Pity you do not realise just how different a commodity it is." That was the end of that correspondence and is the full correspondence
Hmm I think you might want to remove that before ISD do. And I still find your wild assumptions amusing. Your mail hardly assisted your case. |
ISD Atomic Dove
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
59
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 10:48:20 -
[734] - Quote
Locked for Cleaning,
Please take this time to make yourself a cup of tea or go for a bio.
ISD Atomic Dove
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
682
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 17:06:12 -
[735] - Quote
motie one wrote:Let me ask you, do you see no connection between this and the reduction of concurrent players, the unsubbing of alts, the reduction of multiple pilot training and the velocity of isk in the economy? The very reasons for Plex to exist?
Is the reason PLEX exists not to combat unsanctioned RMT and the associated illegal activity that comes with that, such as credit card fraud and account hacking? Higher PLEX prices reduce the profitability of RMT.
motie one wrote:Please tell me how any human being, in their right mind will use their reserves to keep alts or multiple training going, on a regular basis! At the current vastly inflated value of plex.
If they can use the characters on an account to earn more than the cost of PLEX per month, paying for that account with PLEX sounds pretty rational to me assuming they're happy to spend their time to do so.
motie one wrote:Let me repeat, Pilots services, as a class are different to every other commodity in Eve, their existence is existential to the prosperity of CCP and they will not permit them to be manipulated and distorted either deliberately or through misunderstanding their nature as a tool intended to be redeemed , indefinitely.
So why haven't they done anything to permanently reduce the price? They've visibly done more to increase the prices, if anything.
https://youtu.be/w2hsqEvPGWQ?t=21m15s
CCP Dr.EyjoG wrote:So I do reserve the rights that if we feel the market's not representing a good, efficient market at any given time we will intervene, but I always know and feel that this is not the way to go for any long term stability. A price is a price. People have been posting on the internet, "Ah wait until price reaches a billion". Why a billion? That's low. Serenity prices are 3.6 billion per PLEX, yeah. What is the right price? This is not the show of what's the right price, right? [Audience member: "There is no right price"]. There is no right price, you're learning. Nice to have these repeat customers coming over and over again, so I can know that in ten years time my message will have been learned and the system will behave as I want to.
I should probably start taking notes so I can keep up with this thread .
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
motie one
Secret Passage
27
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 17:19:08 -
[736] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:motie one wrote:Let me ask you, do you see no connection between this and the reduction of concurrent players, the unsubbing of alts, the reduction of multiple pilot training and the velocity of isk in the economy? The very reasons for Plex to exist? Is the reason PLEX exists not to combat unsanctioned RMT and the associated illegal activity that comes with that, such as credit card fraud and account hacking? Higher PLEX prices reduce the profitability of RMT. motie one wrote:Please tell me how any human being, in their right mind will use their reserves to keep alts or multiple training going, on a regular basis! At the current vastly inflated value of plex. If they can use the characters on an account to earn more than the cost of PLEX per month, paying for that account with PLEX sounds pretty rational to me assuming they're happy to spend their time to do so. motie one wrote:Let me repeat, Pilots services, as a class are different to every other commodity in Eve, their existence is existential to the prosperity of CCP and they will not permit them to be manipulated and distorted either deliberately or through misunderstanding their nature as a tool intended to be redeemed , indefinitely. So why haven't they done anything to permanently reduce the price? They've visibly done more to increase the prices, if anything. https://youtu.be/w2hsqEvPGWQ?t=21m15s CCP Dr.EyjoG wrote:So I do reserve the rights that if we feel the market's not representing a good, efficient market at any given time we will intervene, but I always know and feel that this is not the way to go for any long term stability. A price is a price. People have been posting on the internet, "Ah wait until price reaches a billion". Why a billion? That's low. Serenity prices are 3.6 billion per PLEX, yeah. What is the right price? This is not the show of what's the right price, right? [Audience member: "There is no right price"]. There is no right price, you're learning. Nice to have these repeat customers coming over and over again, so I can know that in ten years time my message will have been learned and the system will behave as I want to. I should probably start taking notes so I can keep up with this thread .
You missed the bit where I said there is no right price, there is either a good rate of conversion right through the system from entering the game to redemption or there is not, the price will settle so long as tere are no blockages such as wealth storage or manipulation of the item.
When the rate slows to levels where plex is only redeemed as a secondary item and is mainly used for other uses, THEN action needs to be taken. If the rate if redemption is active and healthy and a majority of use relative to the total in system, Then it can be 1,3,5,100 billion, it doesn't matter.
So there is no right price, it varies according to need, if this is manipulated by player behaviour, then a balancing force needs to be applied
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
130
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 18:00:07 -
[737] - Quote
motie one wrote:If the velocity of the rate of exchange into pilot services, has decreased to the point that these are only a secondary use for the product then the alternative uses (wealth storage, and speculative gambling) are "in excess"
What differentiates gambling and wealth storage from investment? The opinions of bureaucrats.
It sounds like you believe your central planners can allocate capital more efficiently than producers and consumers. If that is the case, why not simply put these people in charge of all resource allocation? Surely a command economy run by such brilliant people would be wildly successful. |
motie one
Secret Passage
27
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 18:08:17 -
[738] - Quote
Zihao wrote:motie one wrote:If the velocity of the rate of exchange into pilot services, has decreased to the point that these are only a secondary use for the product then the alternative uses (wealth storage, and speculative gambling) are "in excess" What differentiates gambling and wealth storage from investment? The opinions of bureaucrats. It sounds like you believe your central planners can allocate capital more efficiently than producers and consumers. If that is the case, why not simply put these people in charge of all resource allocation? Surely a command economy run by such brilliant people would be wildly successful.
Well, If you cannot see that pilots services are different from the wider economy, then there is not much to say, If you believe that even the most right wing economies on the planet do not have some checks and balances on essential services, then I guess that the FED should just be sold to Goldman sachs, together with the documents signing you over officially as a serf to exploit?
That'll take care of those meddling socialists! |
Dethmourne Silvermane
Mare Crisium Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
58
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 18:16:45 -
[739] - Quote
What's the problem with using PLEX as wealth storage, as long as players continue to be willing to generate new PLEX to feed into those who want to use it as wealth storage?
I'm not sure I'm following why "redeeming for gametime" is the One True God of PLEX.
Interested Party (TM)
|
yvsyvz
50 Shades of Autism
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 04:23:22 -
[740] - Quote
Leetmcfeet wrote:motie one wrote:
Let me ask you, do you see no connection between this and the reduction of concurrent players, the unsubbing of alts, the reduction of multiple pilot training and the velocity of isk in the economy? This isk for example would be buying these services and is currently not for most players. It is just padding users balances. Waiting.
If you cannot see this just wait for CCP to act to rebalance the serious imbalance, and then reconsider.
You're attributing a loss of concurent players to PLEX which is simply not true. Phoebe; Sov and various forms of bitching have lowered concurent players in the cases where players are actually leaving the game- in other cases people are cutting the fat until a time where which they find use in their alts and sub them again. The game has undergone massive changes which fundamentally completely change the way the game is played. People left because they were unhappy and because when your friends quit - you quit. When you've had your group for several years and people leave; you leave too because you are left with nothing. Those players may or may not return; but PLEX will hardly have anything to do with it.
I have not unsubscribed because of Fozzie Sov, in the contrary I like it with some tweaking here and there. The People that are crying like babies about it are groups like PL and the extremly ******** reddit congregation, which is a direct projection of their spin. BUT I have cut down an alt account due to plex prices. I am not spending any unnecessary ISK on the market anymore to have more potential buffer for my main account if the manipualtion is going on further. Does that tell you something? And no! I am sure not the only one wo needs to act like this. |
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
145
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 05:49:29 -
[741] - Quote
motie one wrote:Zihao wrote:motie one wrote:If the velocity of the rate of exchange into pilot services, has decreased to the point that these are only a secondary use for the product then the alternative uses (wealth storage, and speculative gambling) are "in excess" What differentiates gambling and wealth storage from investment? The opinions of bureaucrats. It sounds like you believe your central planners can allocate capital more efficiently than producers and consumers. If that is the case, why not simply put these people in charge of all resource allocation? Surely a command economy run by such brilliant people would be wildly successful. Well, If you cannot see that pilots services are different from the wider economy, then there is not much to say, If you believe that even the most right wing economies on the planet do not have some checks and balances on essential services, then I guess that the FED should just be sold to Goldman sachs, together with the documents signing you over officially as a serf to exploit? That'll take care of those meddling socialists!
No there isn't any diffirence because they're both purchases by customers and that's what matters to those players and CCP. Hand waiving about checks and balances doesn't substantiate your point.
Grr capitalism? |
Zhaceera Armerarram
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 10:20:49 -
[742] - Quote
And there you go.
That is how nothing needs to be covered up, just let people alone and they themselves cover things up.
"If justice is not for everyone, it is for no one."
|
motie one
Secret Passage
29
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 11:16:12 -
[743] - Quote
Zihao wrote:motie one wrote:Zihao wrote:motie one wrote:If the velocity of the rate of exchange into pilot services, has decreased to the point that these are only a secondary use for the product then the alternative uses (wealth storage, and speculative gambling) are "in excess" What differentiates gambling and wealth storage from investment? The opinions of bureaucrats. It sounds like you believe your central planners can allocate capital more efficiently than producers and consumers. If that is the case, why not simply put these people in charge of all resource allocation? Surely a command economy run by such brilliant people would be wildly successful. Well, If you cannot see that pilots services are different from the wider economy, then there is not much to say, If you believe that even the most right wing economies on the planet do not have some checks and balances on essential services, then I guess that the FED should just be sold to Goldman sachs, together with the documents signing you over officially as a serf to exploit? That'll take care of those meddling socialists! No there isn't any diffirence because they're both purchases by customers and that's what matters to those players and CCP. Hand waiving about checks and balances doesn't substantiate your point. Grr capitalism?
Wow, nothing like completely avoiding the issue, covering one's eyes, and ears, and say all's good here, one wouldn't want reality to interfere now would one?
I mean one wouldn't like people to look at what's happening and upset the nice tidy cartel, I mean, that might be messy or disruptive or something....... Best to just keep one's eyes tightly closed, Don't ask questions,and just bend over once a month. |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 14:32:21 -
[744] - Quote
Yeah. You are avoiding the issue that the money and plex being spent belong to the players and ccp. Your opinion on how it is spent is moot. If you want cheap plex on the market, go buy some and sell them cheaply. Heck, give them away of you like. I can at least respect a martyr for his own cause. You are asking others to be martyred for you and yours. That's the epitome of greed. |
motie one
Secret Passage
29
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 14:47:02 -
[745] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Yeah. You are avoiding the issue that the money and plex being spent belong to the players and ccp. Your opinion on how it is spent is moot. If you want cheap plex on the market, go buy some and sell them cheaply. Heck, give them away of you like. I can at least respect a martyr for his own cause. You are asking others to be martyred for you and yours. That's the epitome of greed.
Are we even discussing the same thread? Or are you studiously avoiding the whole issue, hoping no one will notice? Or get bored and distracted and wander off? |
Zhaceera Armerarram
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 14:56:34 -
[746] - Quote
It is like "Caldari Elections":
"You sir is avoiding the issue." "You sir dont know what you talking about." "You sir is (insert here demeaning personal attack unrelated to the matter)." "You sir, do you even know what you talking about ?"
And maybe that "reasoning" in handling the plex you buy and you sell is preciselly the reason that a few people can set the prices as they see fit.
"If justice is not for everyone, it is for no one."
|
motie one
Secret Passage
29
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 15:30:18 -
[747] - Quote
Zhaceera Armerarram wrote:It is like "Caldari Elections":
"You sir is avoiding the issue." "You sir dont know what you talking about." "You sir is (insert here demeaning personal attack unrelated to the matter)." "You sir, do you even know what you talking about ?"
And maybe that "reasoning" in handling the plex you buy and you sell is preciselly the reason that a few people can set the prices as they see fit.
Well one can understand why they want to extract as many Eggs from the Golden goose while they can, and don't want people to see, but they are somewhat failing when even the most unaware can see it is plucked, turned inside out, and bleeding from the abuse it has suffered.
But the response it to dismiss those who complain about the squawking. Nothing to see here... Move along....
Self restraint and EvE? Not a thing..... |
Zhaceera Armerarram
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 16:03:45 -
[748] - Quote
People just cant understand that EVE is aimed to a kind of player, that is not the "simple" anything. The market just answers badly to the wrong crowd playing the game.
"If justice is not for everyone, it is for no one."
|
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 16:15:43 -
[749] - Quote
wsop |
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 21:11:42 -
[750] - Quote
motie one wrote:
No, no they did not (well they announced they had)
motie one wrote:
fixed NPC sell orders at 500m coupled with a Plex sale of 1$/Gé¼/-ú over the subscription rate for a transition period
motie one wrote:
One must be aware, that there is an "arms race" between speculators and the central banks of the world
motie one wrote:
Plex is no longer a material good or a consumeable
a large quantity of Plex holdings that can actually be sold for 499,999,999 ISK each is more valuable than plex with a 1.3 Bil price tag
And there is no guarantee, those alts, that training, or those people will suddenly discover their mothers credit card.
I am a student and don't understand economics
Best to just keep one's eyes tightly closed, Don't ask questions,and just bend over once a month.
It is probably Best for me to leave discussing economics to those who are willing to challenge their assumptions
A hard cap supported by NPC sell orders, and a free market below that point is my recommendation.
Motie; If only you could take your own advice. Understand we the eve community do not want your ideas. You have failed to convince anyone again and again yet you keep comming back with more rhetoric. Its not only the language you use; not only the way you present your thoughts - Its the thoughts - they are bad. Your ideas are really bad. Understand whatever tact or wit you attempt to apply will be wasted as fundamentally the ideas show a complete lack of understanding of EVE.
No we will not have 500m Plex npc sell orders. (Are you trying to bankrupt CCP for your own gain?)
No we will not operate like how you envision a swiss bank does (Death to all bankers)
No we don't want to hear about your deviant fantasies - this is not the appropriate forum to post them ( NSFW much?) |
|
motie one
Secret Passage
30
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 23:11:31 -
[751] - Quote
Leetmcfeet wrote:motie one wrote:
No, no they did not (well they announced they had)
motie one wrote:
fixed NPC sell orders at 500m coupled with a Plex sale of 1$/Gé¼/-ú over the subscription rate for a transition period
motie one wrote:
One must be aware, that there is an "arms race" between speculators and the central banks of the world
motie one wrote:
Plex is no longer a material good or a consumeable
a large quantity of Plex holdings that can actually be sold for 499,999,999 ISK each is more valuable than plex with a 1.3 Bil price tag
And there is no guarantee, those alts, that training, or those people will suddenly discover their mothers credit card.
I am a student and don't understand economics
Best to just keep one's eyes tightly closed, Don't ask questions,and just bend over once a month.
It is probably Best for me to leave discussing economics to those who are willing to challenge their assumptions
A hard cap supported by NPC sell orders, and a free market below that point is my recommendation.
Motie; If only you could take your own advice. Understand we the eve community do not want your ideas. You have failed to convince anyone again and again yet you keep comming back with more rhetoric. Its not only the language you use; not only the way you present your thoughts - Its the thoughts - they are bad. Your ideas are really bad. Understand whatever tact or wit you attempt to apply will be wasted as fundamentally the ideas show a complete lack of understanding of EVE. No we will not have 500m Plex npc sell orders. (Are you trying to bankrupt CCP for your own gain?) No we will not operate like how you envision a swiss bank does (Death to all bankers) No we don't want to hear about your deviant fantasies - this is not the appropriate forum to post them ( NSFW much?)
Wow, thats more than one would normally hear in an election from the party that is being slaughtered in the polls. Normally they only wheel out the attack dogs when it looks like they might not get ANY seats.
Good luck with the pump and dump. Keep hoping no one has noticed.
ps when trying for the most imaginative reason for getting banned off the Eveo forums, making up quotes, is at the top of the list.
Reported, Good luck with ISD. |
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 01:02:42 -
[752] - Quote
Those are copy pastes from your replies in this thread. You can edit all you want - the originals are still accessible to CCP as is every variant along the way. Lying about it is silly and a waste of ISD time - I suggest you discontinue doing so before someone takes notice of this intentional disruption.
Instead why don't you stick to your guns and defend your statements instead of disowning them. Are you purposely trolling? How do you think this looks? Me, disagreeing with you is not an offense. You are free to leave the thread; you are free to not participate in the thread - but don't spam ISD like a child. |
yvsyvz
50 Shades of Autism
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 04:09:04 -
[753] - Quote
Leetmcfeet wrote: Understand we the eve community do not want your ideas.
Wow! You always know something is foul and fishy if someone starts to speak for the "eve community".
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1162
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 04:22:57 -
[754] - Quote
Now this thread is going places!
Why is there no popcorn eating emote on the terrible forum? |
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 05:07:24 -
[755] - Quote
yvsyvz wrote:Leetmcfeet wrote: Understand we the eve community do not want your ideas. Wow! You always know something is foul and fishy if someone starts to speak for the "eve community".
I agree CSM is good people. In other news every point the guy brought up got slammed by one of several unique individuals; terminology may be too broad for your liking but its surely evidenced in this very thread that the ideas he wants implemented would destroy the EVE economy if not the game. Simply cannot implement 500m npc sell orders for plex; he is a goofy character. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1392
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 06:05:46 -
[756] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Now this thread is going places!
Why is there no popcorn eating emote on the terrible forum? They introduced a popcorn emoji but I don't think font support is there yet.
.
|
motie one
Secret Passage
35
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 10:12:46 -
[757] - Quote
Leetmcfeet wrote:Those are copy pastes from your replies in this thread. You can edit all you want - the originals are still accessible to CCP as is every variant along the way. Lying about it is silly and a waste of ISD time - I suggest you discontinue doing so before someone takes notice of this intentional disruption.
Instead why don't you stick to your guns and defend your statements instead of disowning them. Are you purposely trolling? How do you think this looks? Me, disagreeing with you is not an offense. You are free to leave the thread; you are free to not participate in the thread - but don't spam ISD like a child.
Wow the sheer Chutzpah you have!
Taking words from different sentences and combining them to make new ones is not exactly quoting! More the way of making Blackmail letters in Bad 1970's TV programmes. Snip.Snip!
I thought at first, once your chosen Career as a speculator had imploded, you would make a Good writer of headlines, for the News of the world, Or Fox News, They have a demand for people with no moral compass, and disregard for the truth. But the sheer lack of imagination, the use of Dirty tricks, and the desperate demands for attention would make a career as a Back bench politicial far more appropriate. |
Zhaceera Armerarram
World Traders Guild Channel
15
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 10:48:29 -
[758] - Quote
The is an old matari saying that goes: "We have 2 eyes, 2 ears, but one mouth for a reason."
Even genetics has proven unable to change that.
"If justice is not for everyone, it is for no one."
|
Leetmcfeet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 10:50:30 -
[759] - Quote
LOL |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1166
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 10:50:51 -
[760] - Quote
Zhaceera Armerarram wrote:The is an old matari saying that goes: "We have 2 eyes, 2 ears, but one mouth for a reason."
Even genetics has proven unable to change that. But some people do speak out of their arses.
[EDIT] Is that a Babylon 5 quote? |
|
motie one
Secret Passage
34
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 11:00:18 -
[761] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Zhaceera Armerarram wrote:The is an old matari saying that goes: "We have 2 eyes, 2 ears, but one mouth for a reason."
Even genetics has proven unable to change that. But some people do speak out of their arses. [EDIT] Is that a Babylon 5 quote?
Possibly from every good programme ever, probably said in the original babylon 5000 years ago. And after all this we still cannot cure stupid!
Ah well, in Eve geneticists are still trying, apparently without success. Maybe the Drifters will Burn Jita 4-4 to a husk and clean the Gene pool in one go! |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1167
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 11:04:49 -
[762] - Quote
Some relevant media for those that don't already follow them:
http://www.legacyofacapsuleer.com/mp3/LOAC_ep_26.mp3
https://www.youtube.com/user/EVEProsper |
Zhaceera Armerarram
World Traders Guild Channel
16
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 11:07:35 -
[763] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Zhaceera Armerarram wrote:The is an old matari saying that goes: "We have 2 eyes, 2 ears, but one mouth for a reason."
Even genetics has proven unable to change that. But some people do speak out of their arses. [EDIT] Is that a Babylon 5 quote?
There must be some fertilizer for new ideas.
But that is a saying as old my granny's granny.
"If justice is not for everyone, it is for no one."
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1167
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 11:15:00 -
[764] - Quote
Zhaceera Armerarram wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Zhaceera Armerarram wrote: "We have 2 eyes, 2 ears, but one mouth for a reason."
Is that a Babylon 5 quote? that is a saying as old my granny's granny. So is all the humour in Babylon 5. |
ISD Atomic Dove
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
61
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 12:12:20 -
[765] - Quote
Another round of cleaning, give us a moment and we will be right back.
ISD Atomic Dove
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
92
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 16:16:00 -
[766] - Quote
I think you should close it, it's full of rubbish. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1173
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 16:36:17 -
[767] - Quote
Amarr Citizen 155 wrote:it's full of rubbish. You are not wrong there.
But if we close it, many more PLEX threads will spawn to replace it.
It's better we keep the one ****** threadnaught than be plagued by an army of them.
It would be like that scene in Zulu, but with worse singing.
|
Zhaceera Armerarram
World Traders Guild Channel
16
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 16:53:16 -
[768] - Quote
This thread reminds me of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wYtG7aQTHA
The final Michael Bay part summs it all.
"If justice is not for everyone, it is for no one."
|
motie one
Secret Passage
34
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 18:53:42 -
[769] - Quote
Well, Further to previous thread posts, It looks like there has been significant disruptive action on the markets regarding Plex Today.
There are now very few buy orders left supporting prices over a billion, (and very few below it) in Jita, and only once the US market opened has there been any sell orders issued anew, showing prices above the day's lows.
Whether that has been a central bank action or speculators not wanting to be left with the task of catching a falling knife, It has been an interesting day.
Whilst there is a clear attempt to push support back above 1.2m the numbers are tiny, and the slightest downward pressure has almost nothing to catch it above a billion. And little below that!
It will be really interesting to see what happens after business hours reopen in iceland/Europe, Which might give us indication as to the source of the selloff.
Possibly the smart money will make it's move before Monday morning. Not taking any bets on what will happen to the less than smart money.
In the meantime there should be a bonanza for Gankers as Players try to extract from Jita to sell in the less responsive markets. |
Zhaceera Armerarram
World Traders Guild Channel
19
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 21:40:32 -
[770] - Quote
What is clearly out of people's minds is the situation at the other side of plex.
A plex costs roughly from 15 to 20 USD, and roughly the same about euros, as of this moment euro is 1.12 usd.
That means the value is that for anyone in Euro zone, US and dollarized/euronized economies (countries which equates artificially to either by a fixed value). Despite both issues of those currencies efforts on hideing it, from last year to today you have inflation of 12,5% roughly. That means playing EVE, for those who buy plex in those regions, is 12.5% more expensive, and in turn, the impact for them into buying plex. That alone is a natural driving for making plex value ingame rise. And that has not affected the cost for those who buy plex, so the market demands from these to cover the losses of those, driving the prices up naturally and beyond any ingame control.
But, you remember that mother russia, poland, turkey, south america, singapore, india, among the most consistent present people in EVE, and many others with smaller presences, lives in places with no ties to dollar or Euro.
Taking one of the less affected country examples, for me from 6 months to now, beyond the 12.5% natural inflation for euro/dollar, I must add the 120% increase value of either against my national currency, which makes EVE 135% more expensive to play if I were to pay plex in money. As many of euro/us people's dont get always aware, we outside the axis of ... erm ... forget it, do have networks and things for our own use distinct from those provided by World Wide Corporations, so Internet, website access, anything hosted or routed locally here, does not reflect that cost, but EVE does. That for itself make playing EVE disproportionally more expensive for us than it is for you guys on the axis.
As many may realize, Russian, Polish, South Americans and "Asorted Asians" (sorry guys, no ofense, love ya) make up for a big fraction of players, and all of them are affected by the policy of promoting reacquisition of euro and dollars by its original issuers.
And that, alone, would be reason for a much bigger rise.
"If justice is not for everyone, it is for no one."
|
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1176
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 03:20:00 -
[771] - Quote
Excitement! |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1176
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 11:21:29 -
[772] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:plex is dropping down hard it seems, wonder if the speculators are trying to get out somewhat and taking their profits, before they get caught holding Overvalued stock? The PLEX price clearly overshot. Some people are dumping stocks, some people are taking advantage of the high price to purchase PLEX (-ú/$/etc) and convert to ISK and we may even be seeing a CCP intervention (for possibly the first time this year). I expect it to fall back to ~1.1B and then resume it's climb. It fell back to ~1.12B Buy / ~1.15B Sell before starting to climb again. Now at ~1.17B Buy / ~1.2B Sell.
Prices tend to fall back on the weekends and rise during the week, so it could take another pounding during primetime.
|
Nouva MacGyver
MacGyver Communications
20
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 12:00:05 -
[773] - Quote
Business as usual in Plexland. |
motie one
Secret Passage
35
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 12:16:40 -
[774] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:plex is dropping down hard it seems, wonder if the speculators are trying to get out somewhat and taking their profits, before they get caught holding Overvalued stock? The PLEX price clearly overshot. Some people are dumping stocks, some people are taking advantage of the high price to purchase PLEX (-ú/$/etc) and convert to ISK and we may even be seeing a CCP intervention (for possibly the first time this year). I expect it to fall back to ~1.1B and then resume it's climb. It fell back to ~1.12B Buy / ~1.15B Sell before starting to climb again. Now at ~1.17B Buy / ~1.2B Sell. Prices tend to fall back on the weekends and rise during the week, so it could take another pounding during primetime.
Yes, I notice support levels have been put back in, though not in high numbers, the interesting point is whether the weekend gives some the opportunity to dump a few of their stock, to those orders, but not much there for people to move more than a few because come monday, GMT all hell might break loose, even a tiny push now will cause vast drops. Anyone holding large stock is probably far to late to get out now, and even the most determined speculator will be unwilling to act like King canute, and put himself at great risk, only to be overwhelmed, by the inevitable direction of the market, for the benefit of his competition.
I do agree, Exciting times. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1176
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 13:24:15 -
[775] - Quote
I disagree, I think the critical period will be today and tomorrow's prime times.
Monday will see an upward movement from wherever those prime times leave us.
After the action of the last few days, I'm only holding the 8 PLEX I need to top up my subs. I'll buy in again once I'm happy we're in the up-turn. |
Tom Hagen
Friendly Bunch Of Brothers
158
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 14:09:47 -
[776] - Quote
motie one wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:plex is dropping down hard it seems, wonder if the speculators are trying to get out somewhat and taking their profits, before they get caught holding Overvalued stock? The PLEX price clearly overshot. Some people are dumping stocks, some people are taking advantage of the high price to purchase PLEX (-ú/$/etc) and convert to ISK and we may even be seeing a CCP intervention (for possibly the first time this year). I expect it to fall back to ~1.1B and then resume it's climb. It fell back to ~1.12B Buy / ~1.15B Sell before starting to climb again. Now at ~1.17B Buy / ~1.2B Sell. Prices tend to fall back on the weekends and rise during the week, so it could take another pounding during primetime. Yes, I notice support levels have been put back in, by holders and speculators, though not in high numbers, the interesting point is whether the weekend gives some the opportunity to dump a few of their stock, to those orders, but not much there for people to move more than a few. Come Monday, GMT all hell might break loose, even a tiny push now will cause vast drops. Anyone holding large stock is probably far to late to get out now, and even the most determined speculator will be unwilling to act like King canute, and put himself at great risk, only to be overwhelmed, by the inevitable direction of the market, for the benefit of his competition. Best to take their profit now and buy back in after the market restabilises. I do agree, Exciting times. Clearly we are at a tipping point where minimal effort can have a major effect, whether it is players, Or CCP, taking action, It has proven, that speculators at the right time, can push the market vastly higher, equally, at the right time, a concerted effort can restore the Plex market to levels where pilots services become available to all at affordable prices, whatever that price may be. In my opinion the action whoever took it, was set up to allow minimal player action to finish the Job. That is very EVE. Monday will be something interesting either way. I predict at this time, subject to player actions this weekend that there is a strong possibility of the 1bil support level being significantly breached even before Monday, and the 800m level does not look much stronger. It would probably be wise for speculators to put in strong support between 7-800 mil, rather than lose their shirt trying to support too high a level, But of course, who knows if someone sees the desireable level far below that, and has the means to bring it about. Of course it could be simply Economic war, It's a thing, nothing better than to bankrupt one's enemies. Collateral damage is also a thing, best not be that guy.
I am sorry.. I have been away for Close to 2 years now. I will admit I haven' t read all the 39 pages of this thread.
But if I got it correctly you Motie aren't that satisfied with the current PLEX prices, and I must say your analysis seems to be some what affected by your own wishful thinking. Sure you will have some movements up and down, but when me and my friends left EVE last time 2 years ago there was 2 very safe assumption we made.
We placed our ISK in Procurers and PLEXs....
Of those 2, if I was to leave again Plex still seem like a safe option over time..
But I wish you well in trying to affect the market in any meaningful way with your posting in Market Discussion your doom and gloom scenarios. My advice to you is, spend your time running lvl4 mission in empire instead of posting lengthy post in here and maybe you can afford the PLEX that you need :-D
And don't you worry about the PLEX market, I don't need any, but IF they fall I will buy some more :-) |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1176
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 14:36:10 -
[777] - Quote
Tom Hagen wrote:I will admit I haven' t read all the 39 pages of this thread. That probably makes you better informed than most then.
|
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 14:46:31 -
[778] - Quote
Looking back last month On August (08) 24 to 27 or 25 and 26th, 2015 or EVE Year time rather, I made an advanced business forecast that the rate would go up from 940m - 960m to around 1.1b ISK to 1.2b ISK.
I mentionned that I would keep my source secret and unpublished at that time since I didn't have the resources to publish those details in enough exactitude to make it worthwhile.
I took the risk of using some hidden information in the forecast and I presumed it would not affect the factors influencing the value by more than 10%.
In fact, 1.1b ISK to 1.2b ISK only is 8.33% margin of difference. Not even 10%.
I further predicted in the publicly announced forecast that this rate would occur by September to around mid-October (same year).
I got some of my fact mistaken , if not wrong, or within a margin of error higher than I would have liked to work with.
One error is that , those rates occured until November of last year, that is, according to another poster publishing in this thread, or fourm... I could not verify those data at this time. There is a ratio of efficiency related to the verification.
I will make a graph or extract data from the EVE Market graph for PLEx, but the rate went up to 1.1b ISK by September, after reaching it end of August for a day. It then reached 1.2b ISK a week later or so. It then again reached 1.29b ISK a few days after that.
My forecast accuracy was off by 0.07b ISK end of August, beginning of September, at around 1.093b ISK. That was a margin of error of 0.7 % or less than 1% which was a good sample of the PLEx market exactitude wise. The digit accuracy level was around 1 to 3 digits after the floating point.
1.29b ISK is 6.976 7% difference over 1.2b ISK .
There are margin of accuracy, and level of trusts which are not based on value of accuracy but on rights of association. You may hear or read, this is right, that is wrong and so on, but when it comes down to accuracy of those statement, they are motivated by association rather than mathematical accuracy, or rather, without other mathetical accuracy than the logic diagrams of associations.
I prefer to verify mathematical, or even business arithmetic formulas accuracy before doing something more practical, like take an action, publish a post, do an online transaction (in EVE Online).
It is true that PLEx go up on Wednesday and down on Thursday evening. I made profit from PLEx speculation, all lotions aside, and I can calculate the margin of profit, or count my profit percentage. Is it done automatically? Hell no, no more automatically than the positive and negative electronic current flowing through those digital circuits. The rest of it, I have to either hard-code it, or punch it in, before it can be read or extracted.
I am more than certain that others posted it, just where is harder to post here.
A second error is: I only bought 11 PLEx, and I didn't expect my funds to get those PLEx would run out. I would have bought another 2 PLEx or more, just so I could get the 10% margin of profit from the previous rate.
3rd: I sold most of my PLEx at around 1.1b ISK to 2.2b ISK while those figure were not the most efficient cost-profit scenario. Why scenario, well, I just so happen to be able to get enough capital to make scenarios and to shoot it.
Conclusion: I made 10% to 20% profit, but I could have made 5% to 15% more (=6.97% to 14.728 % more). Take some, give some.
ok, we'll leave this for now.
|
Tom Hagen
Friendly Bunch Of Brothers
159
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 15:43:57 -
[779] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Tom Hagen wrote:I will admit I haven' t read all the 39 pages of this thread. That probably makes you better informed than most then.
From the pages I have read, I have come to the conclusion.. Less is more! |
motie one
Secret Passage
35
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 16:05:13 -
[780] - Quote
Tom Hagen wrote:motie one wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:plex is dropping down hard it seems, wonder if the speculators are trying to get out somewhat and taking their profits, before they get caught holding Overvalued stock? The PLEX price clearly overshot. Some people are dumping stocks, some people are taking advantage of the high price to purchase PLEX (-ú/$/etc) and convert to ISK and we may even be seeing a CCP intervention (for possibly the first time this year). I expect it to fall back to ~1.1B and then resume it's climb. It fell back to ~1.12B Buy / ~1.15B Sell before starting to climb again. Now at ~1.17B Buy / ~1.2B Sell. Prices tend to fall back on the weekends and rise during the week, so it could take another pounding during primetime. Yes, I notice support levels have been put back in, by holders and speculators, though not in high numbers, the interesting point is whether the weekend gives some the opportunity to dump a few of their stock, to those orders, but not much there for people to move more than a few. Come Monday, GMT all hell might break loose, even a tiny push now will cause vast drops. Anyone holding large stock is probably far to late to get out now, and even the most determined speculator will be unwilling to act like King canute, and put himself at great risk, only to be overwhelmed, by the inevitable direction of the market, for the benefit of his competition. Best to take their profit now and buy back in after the market restabilises. I do agree, Exciting times. Clearly we are at a tipping point where minimal effort can have a major effect, whether it is players, Or CCP, taking action, It has proven, that speculators at the right time, can push the market vastly higher, equally, at the right time, a concerted effort can restore the Plex market to levels where pilots services become available to all at affordable prices, whatever that price may be. In my opinion the action whoever took it, was set up to allow minimal player action to finish the Job. That is very EVE. Monday will be something interesting either way. I predict at this time, subject to player actions this weekend that there is a strong possibility of the 1bil support level being significantly breached even before Monday, and the 800m level does not look much stronger. It would probably be wise for speculators to put in strong support between 7-800 mil, rather than lose their shirt trying to support too high a level, But of course, who knows if someone sees the desireable level far below that, and has the means to bring it about. Of course it could be simply Economic war, It's a thing, nothing better than to bankrupt one's enemies. Collateral damage is also a thing, best not be that guy. I am sorry.. I have been away for Close to 2 years now. I will admit I haven' t read all the 39 pages of this thread. But if I got it correctly you Motie aren't that satisfied with the current PLEX prices, and I must say your analysis seems to be some what affected by your own wishful thinking. Sure you will have some movements up and down, but when me and my friends left EVE last time 2 years ago there was 2 very safe assumption we made. We placed our ISK in Procurers and PLEXs.... Of those 2, if I was to leave again Plex still seem like a safe option over time.. But I wish you well in trying to affect the market in any meaningful way with your posting in Market Discussion your doom and gloom scenarios. My advice to you is, spend your time running lvl4 mission in empire instead of posting lengthy post in here and maybe you can afford the PLEX that you need :-D And don't you worry about the PLEX market, I don't need any, but IF they fall I will buy some more :-)
Very good If you believe Plex is a long term hold, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion.
Historically you may have made a correct call, not disagreeing with you in any way. But historical performance is no guarantee of future performance.
In my opinion is likely to be a poor assumption.
However what happens, is what will happen. I may be right, you may be right, but it is hard to argue over what actually happened before close of business on Friday, and it is hard to argue that support levels have not deliberately been put in place by players to support the high prices, and to try to drive them back up. It is also hard to argue that this downward pressure will not reoccur when office time in GMT occurs.
My view is it is speculators hoping to keep the price high, not a demand to redeem Plex for Pilots services at any price. My view is there is the opportunity for a few traders to be able to get out of their positions and take profits. But not many. The support is just not there for large numbers.
You are not compelled to accept my view, but it is foolish to disregard the possibility that it may be correct. Being dismissive where others may disagree with you is not going to gain you or your position respect. |
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1177
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 17:04:16 -
[781] - Quote
I've been trading PLEX and drinking all day, in equal measure, while I catch up on podcasts/streams and chat with my friends.
Yesterdays drop opened up the spread enough for me to do a lot of 50m-60m flips this morning before the usual PLEX market day activity closed that down to a more normal 10m-20m spread.
Since then it's just been wobbling mostly in the range of 1,160-1,170 Buy 1,170-1,200 Sell.
Those of you that base your analysis on the market graphs alone should actually spend some time watching and trading in the actual market, because those graphs tell only part of the story.
Also basing judgement on where orders are or are not isn't reliable. People know full well that others look at orders as an indicator, so we often either don't put orders up until they are needed or we put up orders that we have no intention of leaving there to be filled.
Anyway, I'm heading out for dinner with some friends, so if you want to trash the PLEX market while I'm away, now is your chance. |
motie one
Secret Passage
35
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 17:17:33 -
[782] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:I've been trading PLEX and drinking all day, in equal measure, while I catch up on podcasts/streams and chat with my friends.
Yesterdays drop opened up the spread enough for me to do a lot of 50m-60m flips this morning before the usual PLEX market day activity closed that down to a more normal 10m-20m spread.
Since then it's just been wobbling mostly in the range of 1,160-1,170 Buy 1,170-1,200 Sell.
Those of you that base your analysis on the market graphs alone should actually spend some time watching and trading in the actual market, because those graphs tell only part of the story.
Also basing judgement on where orders are or are not isn't reliable. People know full well that others look at orders as an indicator, so we often either don't put orders up until they are needed or we put up orders that we have no intention of leaving there to be filled.
Anyway, I'm heading out for dinner with some friends, so if you want to trash the PLEX market while I'm away, now is your chance.
[EDIT] Plus we are entering EU prime and that's where the fun is likely to start.
The market will behave as it will behave, It will be interesting to watch, But I do expect speculators to try to shore up their support, before Monday. But all hell may or may not break loose in the meantime. It sounds like you are dealing with the market in an intelligent manner, and keeping things moving and taking profits where you can.
Have a good evening and Enjoy your dinner. |
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 18:23:25 -
[783] - Quote
Learning skills exist even in EVE Online (or offline).
If you read 39 pages you have to be more technical.
Even 10 pages is more technical.
1 or 2 pages is all you should need or even less.
I didn't read 1 or 2 pages yet.
The best I can do is save them.
The trick is to get the good part, not bother about the bad parts , and especially not post about the worst parts and try to capitalize on it. It can only lead to disaster and worst. |
Zhaceera Armerarram
World Traders Guild Channel
21
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 19:51:15 -
[784] - Quote
After a time in here you know people to block (myself included if you dont like my reasoning or think I lack it), and the threads start to be much smaller.
"If justice is not for everyone, it is for no one."
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1177
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 20:27:57 -
[785] - Quote
motie one wrote:I do expect speculators to try to shore up their support, before Monday. As a speculator, I cashed out during the obvious peak. Every pundit I know of called it as being overblown and likely to fall back to ~1.1B, as it did.
So the only speculators left with stocks were either asleep at the wheel or holding regardless with the intention of cashing out during the inevitable year end spike.
Why anyone would worry about propping up today's PLEX price, if it were to fall further, rather than letting it drop so that they could buy in heavily at the new floor, is beyond me.
PLEX is headed up to 1.3B-1.5B, regardless of this recent drop, it just outran itself with the recent spike. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
684
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 20:52:36 -
[786] - Quote
TLDR? Watch PLEX the Animated Series: https://youtu.be/mj_V3DP6r-s?t=1m24s
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
392
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 21:00:21 -
[787] - Quote
Gadolf Agalder wrote:
I further predicted
I'm usually a bit sceptical of people that 'predict' things using secret sauce recipes that are too secret to divulge to the masses. After all, if you throw enough darts at the board you are bound to get 180 every now and again. |
Zhaceera Armerarram
World Traders Guild channel
21
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 22:29:33 -
[788] - Quote
Self fullfilling Prophecies and self fueling arguments really bear no foresight.
Foresight is seeing something going up when it is going down. Something crashing during a long stable period.
"If justice is not for everyone, it is for no one."
|
motie one
Secret Passage
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 22:58:15 -
[789] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:I do expect speculators to try to shore up their support, before Monday. As a speculator, I cashed out during the obvious peak. Every pundit I know of called it as being overblown and likely to fall back to ~1.1B, as it did. So the only speculators left with stocks were either asleep at the wheel or holding regardless with the intention of cashing out during the inevitable year end spike. Why anyone would worry about propping up today's PLEX price, if it were to fall further, rather than letting it drop so that they could buy in heavily at the new floor, is beyond me. PLEX is headed up to 1.3B-1.5B, regardless of this recent drop, it just outran itself with the recent spike.
Quite logical, your behaviour seems more of a market strategy rather than speculation. Whilst some who wish to see it rise, speculators, if you will, are clearly putting in stop orders, to prevent a sell off. The greater pressure is the behaviou of those more major entities, who wish to preserve their much larger investment, that is probably too large to crash out without in turn damaging their investment returns as a result.
I do disagree with your projections as to long term values, I have previously explained why. We are in my opinion going to see one of two scenarios.
A hard reduction, either created by the action of EvE's economists, or a panic reaction, or both in combination, which may already be primed to occur, or the large Holders using market peaks, to divest over the longer term.
It will be interesting to witness either way, and I am sure there will still be plenty of money to be made by an intelligent, and aware market player such as yourself, whichever way the market moves. |
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:15:38 -
[790] - Quote
voetius wrote:Gadolf Agalder wrote:
I further predicted
I'm usually a bit sceptical of people that 'predict' things using secret sauce recipes that are too secret to divulge to the masses. After all, if you throw enough darts at the board you are bound to get 180 every now and again. ... I further predicted in the publicly announced forecast that ...
... Edit: 2. The source of the data and forecast info was from the "back to school" time period.
There are factors related to ... |
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1177
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 03:42:16 -
[791] - Quote
voetius wrote:Gadolf Agalder wrote:I further predicted I'm usually a bit sceptical of people that 'predict' things using secret sauce recipes that are too secret to divulge to the masses. After all, if you throw enough darts at the board you are bound to get 180 every now and again. I think he actually provided support for his claims, it's just I can't make head nor tail of his posting.
For clearer predictions, complete with extensive graph porn of a type far beyond the limits of the in-game market browser, I'd refer you to something I included in my previous posts, in advance of the events predicted therein:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIJVf9qMO5k PLEX analysis starts @ 4:15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULyk4IryZ6k PLEX analysis starts @ 6:52
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOJIS5McFcQ PLEX analysis starts @ 6:54
I've given the times for the start of the PLEX analysis, but there is plenty of other good content in those videos.
Tbh, I don't think you needed to apply Lockefox's level of market voodoo and entrail scrying in order to predict what was going to happen. I had already made up my mind when I watched his videos on release and he just confirmed what I was already thinking and gave me some nice graphs, trends and justification for what I was already doing in the PLEX market.
I can't remember and am not going to go back and check, but I think delonewolf made similar, if less detailed predictions in his weekly market run down (EVE Talk).
I'd like to hear VV's view on all this.
|
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 05:14:32 -
[792] - Quote
Thanks for the videos Bad Bobby.
I will review what I advanced in more details and review the source of my finding as was already predicted by others this occurence last year for now. I first heard of it 2 years ago, and the first time it occured, I didn't understand. The second time, I didn't understand but I saw it happened.
This time around I took the time to add calculations and marked references so I could get more precisions in my approximations and factors to a list of factors influencing this.
My forecast was from approximation of 10% to 20% change and value change going upward in this time frame. Do I use graphs? hell yes. Do I make graphs? Yes, that too, I also do drafting.
I use graph & drafts to simplify my analytical mind processes since they require overcoming challenges greater than my simple resources allow.
I create & use those graphs & tools simply to overcome those challenges & to simplify my procedures whether it is reasoning grounds on which to do analysis...
Given, one would have to learn how to read those design to interpret them properly without misinterpretation, but , I create alternate method to convey the subject without the need to assimilate the design learning process.
When the time period started to occur, I compared my approximative market values with those which occured and the time frames in question. One reason they were approximative is because I didn't link it. I didn't even bother to verify the exactitude of my advances since I was confident enough of myself to mention it without verifying by eye witness. In other words, the original post may still be there with the exact data, I just didn't verify it myself either, although I wrote it myself indeed, which makes a big difference from other posters.
I read nothing of the other post from other posters yet and I am sure that it is loaded with better data than I could provide.
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Oinola Akachi
State War Academy Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 05:37:31 -
[793] - Quote
[v] Remember me ?
I made videos of the PLEx trading Prices which I will edit before publishing to others.
Most of my videos are private on YouTube awaiting editing.
Many parts will be integrated into edited versions.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1182
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 05:47:07 -
[794] - Quote
I'm going against my better instincts in engaging you in conversation motie one, because I think you are fundamentally wrong in almost every respect in your philosophy, predictions and understanding of the EVE/PLEX economy.
I suspect that wrongness comes from some underlying bitterness or angst, which is clouding your judgement, because I see that you do have a grip on economic theories, so you clearly have the mental capacity to understand these things, and yet your view seems to have a Gevlon-esque skew away from reality and down your own private rabbit hole.
Please don't take this as a plot to insult or inflame you, I'm just making a single attempt to break through your delusions and bring you back to reality. If that is unsuccessful or unwelcome, then I apologize wholeheartedly.
motie one wrote:The greater longer term pressure acting out, is the behaviour of those more major entities, who wish to preserve their much larger investment, that is probably too large to crash out without in turn damaging their investment returns as a result. So, these major entities:
Who are they?
Why do they have both a "much larger investment" in something and yet have to exert massive pressure on propping up the value of this thing in the face of strong fundamental market forces that you think work against them?
I question how such a person amasses a large fortune with which to wield such power in the marketplace if they spend their time investing in things that are going against them and have a strong tendency to throw good money after bad in order to hold up their ill-planned schemes.
I don't find this greatly plausible, even if I were to accept your analysis of the PLEX market. I don't feel your analysis is internally consistent. Feel free to explain this to me.
motie one wrote:I do disagree with your projections as to long term values Those were not long term projections. That is how I see things going up until the December holiday sale induced slump. Longer term, moving in to the new year, I expect PLEX to progress much higher.
motie one wrote:We are in my opinion going to see one of two scenarios.
A hard reduction, either created by the action of EvE's economists, or a panic reaction, or both in combination, which may already be primed to occur, or the large Holders using market peaks, to divest over the longer term. As always leaving the less aware or less than competent speculators. and those who are blinded by the promise of historic safety, to carry the loss. We've just gone through those scenarios this weekend.
The hard reduction created by the action of EvE's economists has happened, it's over, we've done it. They pulled the price back into sanity at around 1.15B and are now letting it continue on it's usual upward trend at a more sober pace.
The panic/exit reaction, such that it was, was just people exiting their position at an obvious peak. There wasn't much panic. Just speculators completing their transactions and other people going along with it.
CCP's action obviously made the need to sell somewhat immediate, for those that aren't playing for the future higher prices or who are planning to exit and re-enter in order to cash in on that future price. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1182
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 05:55:18 -
[795] - Quote
motie one wrote:I fully understand the logic, where past performance and events extrapolated forward do support your projections, the graph wizardry is persuasive. However past performance, does not guarantee future performance, as we are very well aware of in the real world too. It is a mistake to place too much faith in them. While past performance may be a strong factor in many people's thinking and it certainly helps to maintain the upward PLEX trend. This is not the only, or even the most significant factor in my PLEX investments or those of informed investors.
The simple fact is that PLEX is massively underpriced. As I've said many times.
It's functional value and utility, is much higher than the price you pay for it. If you are a capable player, you will get more out of your 30 days sub than the isk you put in to paying for it. That's a fundamentally good investment for those that can afford to make it.
That functional value and utility is rising and has been rising for a long time. CCP keep adding new ways to make use of that PLEX and have short-medium term plans to keep increasing that utility. It's certainly consistent with their own financial needs to keep the utility of PLEX rising and thereby maintaining demand for it.
Aside from basic sales incentive for CCP to keep PLEX going strong, there is the fact that one of the main fundamental functions of PLEX is to combat RMT. In that respect it is performing well, in that the rate of exchange from RL currency to isk is extremely attractive and there is minimal incentive to take greater risks in the illicit RMT market instead of simply buying PLEX.
The recent past of EVE has been pretty poor:
We've gone through a period where 0.0 stagnated and bored PvP pilots were required (and were able to) tour the length and breadth of EVE in search of what content they could find. The totally solved problem that was Dominion sov was so long in the tooth that it held no surprises for anyone and a steady state had been established and cemented to a degree that had horrendous impacts on the game.
The evolved meta and the results of a succession of nerfs that had rendered capitals somewhat dull and pointless has led to much unsubbing or alts.
The cure to that problem was (and had to be) somewhat extreme and took a lot of us up to the edge. Nerfing capitals in to the ground. Removing the force projection that was needed to extract what little content remained. Leaving us with more or less nothing to do.
Aside from that, there were some pretty disasterous, or just plain painfull, changes in all other aspects of EVE.
It shouldn't come as any surprise that EVE activity and player counts had dropped massively.
But now we're through that dark time and everything before us looks pretty good:
They are replacing the structures they ruined in Crius with new structures that have far greater potential and appear to have far more work being put in to them.
They are re-working capitals and super capitals and the word on the street from CSMs who live and breath capital combat is that we're in for moist underwear and dirty grins.
They are a long way through the process of making the majority of ships and modules in the game non-terrible, but are still clearly committed to this as an eternal struggle.
They are working their way through the issues with their new problem child sov system and the hope and expectation of many is they'll eventually get it to a nice state where we can enjoy a new shiny sov system that actually works for as long as it takes for us to bring it to the same totally solved state as we did with Dominion.
The future outlook for the next six months is one of increasing player numbers, increasing player activity and increasing demand for PLEX.
So please, tell me, why do you feel PLEX price should be dropping in the face of all this positive news and upward forces?
Why do you think that such a fundamentally daft and counter productive idea as an NPC order is needed? |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 06:08:44 -
[796] - Quote
Isn't the price of a PLEX on the Chinese server over 3 billion? Why cry over a measly 1.2 billion? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1182
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 07:13:03 -
[797] - Quote
Tbh, if they were to un-break industry by sorting out the terrible ranks system and the overly fast speed of production as well as doing some work on actually improving the overall EVE UI rather than degrading it, I'd be entirely happy with where EVE is and where it's headed.
Given that I'm pretty fussy and have zero tolerance for shoddy work, the fact that I can say that is a pretty impressive complement to CCP.
Oh and they could replace this terrible forum with something good, preferably restoring the features they threw out when they moved to it from the old forums.
I'm not going to bother asking for them to improve EVE PvE, because it's so hateful at the moment that there isn't really much worth saving. I've always advocated they just delete all the missions and non-sandbox PvE from the game and be done with it, but I know that focusing the game on the hard core sandbox player and away from the casual player isn't really a good idea. But seriously, missions are so embarrassingly bad for game content in 2015.
When I can say that CCP are doing a good job, that means pretty much everyone else that is less bitter and demanding than me must be dancing in the streets. When these promises turn into actual implemented, stable and iterated features then we're going to see a lot of re-subbing. |
motie one
Secret Passage
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 09:53:29 -
[798] - Quote
Bobby, so much of what you say is absolutely on the ball, some well discussed and clear thinking. In the end, when all is taken into account, only what the market dictates, will come to pass. I really do expect a reset of the price of Plex, as much as you expect to see it rise.
I know that from the point of view of a market trader, that both a volatile market, with wide swings, and of course a 10% profit on two bil is so much better than ten percent on two hundred (I do not expect it to drop that low other than a massive overshoot). Naturally one has an emotional attachment for such conditions to exist and prosper.
This has been the driver of plex price increase, not demand for pilot services skyrocketing. The opposite is true, which is why we see our colleagues, hybernating alts amongst other actions.
There is a structural disparity, that is deeply destructive. And that will one way or other end in a black swan moment.
As to which one of us is right, remains to be seen.
I naturally do hope I am right as otherwise a major pillar supporting eve, the ability to get some real world benefit, for average players, from their in game efforts will remain effectively unavailable.
The fact that an incursioneer or null ratter deep in the blue doughnut can earn 200m an hour (sic) does not mean 95% of others see the world from his viewpoint.
That will have very toxic results long term |
motie one
Secret Passage
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 10:02:11 -
[799] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Isn't the price of a PLEX on the Chinese server over 3 billion? Why cry over a measly 1.2 billion?
There is a desire there by the independent company that runs it to encourage numbers of subscriptions with little concern for the health of the game.
Bots are technically still forbidden, but form a large majority of player action, the market is monstrously distorted and dysfunctional and is allowed to spiral into chaos.
Cost of plex in real currency is very different.
In fact it is a pretty good example, of what happens when you let an experiment run, when CCP do not give a guiding hand to the market.
Hardly a model of a long term profitable business.
And not something we should use to compare EvE as we know it to. Truly apples to oranges. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1183
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 10:59:08 -
[800] - Quote
motie one wrote:The fact that an incursioneer or null ratter deep in the blue doughnut can earn 200m an hour (sic) does not mean 95% of others see the world from his viewpoint. The thing is that there are only a finite number of PLEXes being created by players handing over their RL currency to CCP and due to the free market sandbox economy of EVE, those PLEXes are always destined to go to the people willing to pay the most for them. The poor player will always have a hard time, unless there are so many PLEXes being created that the richer player's needs are entirely satisfied.
By way of an example with small numbers to make it easy for my arithmetic challenged brain:
A total of 10 PLEX are created this month.
2 get bought by wealthy 0.0 alliances to hand out to their leaders, FCs and logisticians. 2 get bought by wealthy individual players as an investment against future price rises. 2 get bought by wealthy market traders and industrialists. 1 gets bought by wealthy Incursion runners. 1 gets bought by wealthy WH farmers. 2 get bought by middle income no-life grinders that run LV4s, rat or mine constantly to sustain themselves.
There is nothing left for a poor player who despite the desire to do so, cannot afford to pay the price that all those people listed above are prepared to pay. Either because they lack the knowledge, time, determination or enthusiasm to do what it takes to make the isk they need.
The only solution, if indeed there is one, is to encourage more people to buy PLEX with RL currency and make them available on the market. This will occur naturally once more people are playing the game, enjoying it and are willing to invest more RL currency in it.
My personal feeling is that CCP should lower the monthy subscription cost and the PLEX cost, because in today's gaming marketplace the product they are providing isn't worth the price they are charging for it. But that's very much my personal opinion and CCP's numbers may not agree with me or their financial situation may not be able to endure that change. |
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motie one
Secret Passage
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 11:13:07 -
[801] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:The fact that an incursioneer or null ratter deep in the blue doughnut can earn 200m an hour (sic) does not mean 95% of others see the world from his viewpoint. The thing is that there are only a finite number of PLEXes being created by players handing over their RL currency to CCP and due to the free market sandbox economy of EVE, those PLEXes are always destined to go to the people willing to pay the most for them. The poor player will always have a hard time, unless there are so many PLEXes being created that the richer player's needs are entirely satisfied. By way of an example with small numbers to make it easy for my arithmetic challenged brain: A total of 10 PLEX are created this month. 2 get bought by wealthy 0.0 alliances to hand out to their leaders, FCs and logisticians. 2 get bought by wealthy individual players as an investment against future price rises. 2 get bought by wealthy market traders and industrialists. 1 gets bought by wealthy Incursion runners. 1 gets bought by wealthy WH farmers. 2 get bought by middle income no-life grinders that run LV4s, rat or mine constantly to sustain themselves. There is nothing left for a poor player who despite the desire to do so, cannot afford to pay the price that all those people listed above are prepared to pay. Either because they lack the knowledge, time, determination or enthusiasm to do what it takes to make the isk they need. The only solution, if indeed there is one, is to encourage more people to buy PLEX with RL currency and make them available on the market. This will occur naturally once more people are playing the game, enjoying it and are willing to invest more RL currency in it. My personal feeling is that CCP should lower the monthy subscription cost and the PLEX cost, because in today's gaming marketplace the product they are providing isn't worth the price they are charging for it. But that's very much my personal opinion and CCP's numbers may not agree with me or their financial situation may not be able to endure that change.
This is where it is so hard, you are absolutely correct as to what is happening, but your conclusions assume that Plex is treated as a commodity, no different from Player produced items such as Ships or minerals.
Whilst this is what is currently happening, I argue this is NOT the real case even though the current trading sentiment is that it is no different.
CCP cannot allow this to persist in the long term, as it is having horrific results with retention. Short term gain cannot be allowed to harm the long term viability of the game, and CCP always eventually come back to that conclusion.
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
686
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 11:34:17 -
[802] - Quote
You are seeing an effect (lower PCU) and attributing it to higher PLEX prices, why do you think it's that way round rather than lower subscriptions leading to less PLEX bought from CCP, thus less sold on the market and higher PLEX prices. The list of reasons people might've unsubscribed is endless. If PLEX consumers were leaving due to high prices at a similar rate to how much the PCU has gone down, wouldn't we have seen a larger drop in the volume of PLEX?
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
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motie one
Secret Passage
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 11:37:29 -
[803] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:You are seeing an effect (lower PCU) and attributing it to higher PLEX prices, why do you think it's that way round rather than lower subscriptions leading to less PLEX bought from CCP, thus less sold on the market and higher PLEX prices. The list of reasons people might've unsubscribed is endless. If PLEX consumers were leaving due to high prices at a similar rate to how much the PCU has gone down, wouldn't we have seen a larger drop in the volume of PLEX?
We have discussed this at length, so just to pick up one point, regarding volumes, they are only indicative, that they are being bought and sold, the real metric is redemptions into pilots services. Just how many of your friends have put alts into hibernation because it is too time consuming to grind for the cost of plex? and are unhappy with the loss of funtionality and fun that results in, even though they are still holding on to their main for now? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1185
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 11:41:39 -
[804] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:You are seeing an effect (lower PCU) and attributing it to higher PLEX prices Whereas I attribute it to the game being terrible for a prolonged period of time, while still asking a very high price for admission.
Predictably a lot of people have decided:
- "Screw this, I'm going to play a better and/or cheaper game!"
- "I'll carry on playing, but I'm damned if I'm going to keep sinking RL cash into buying PLEX to sustain myself."
- "I'll carry on playing, but I'm damned if I'm actually going to pay for a sub."
So PCU drops, PLEX supply reduces and PLEX demand increases.
In case you are interested, #3 is me. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1191
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 11:46:20 -
[805] - Quote
motie one wrote:Just how many of your friends have put alts into hibernation because it is too time consuming to grind for the cost of plex? and are unhappy with the loss of funtionality and fun that results in, even though they are still holding on to their main for now? Zero, as far as I can tell.
My friends have left the game because it is bad, or because other games are better, or because they are getting older and now have wives and kids that take up the time that they used to devote to EVE, or because after playing the game for X years they've just had enough of it.
That said, none of my friends are poor, because they are either independently wealthy in EVE or because they have me as a friend and I **** out money like the proverbial golden goose. |
motie one
Secret Passage
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 11:46:28 -
[806] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote:You are seeing an effect (lower PCU) and attributing it to higher PLEX prices Whereas I attribute it to the game being terrible for a prolonged period of time, while still asking a very high price for admission. Predictably a lot of people have decided:
- "Screw this, I'm going to play a better and/or cheaper game!"
- "I'll carry on playing, but I'm damned if I'm going to keep sinking RL cash into buying PLEX to sustain myself."
- "I'll carry on playing, but I'm damned if I'm actually going to pay for a sub."
So PCU drops, PLEX supply reduces and PLEX demand increases. In case you are interested, #3 is me.
Lots of truth there, the only proviso I would add, is that people are reasonably willing to pay for their main as long as there is some fun, alts however, are still fun to shoot at. But without being able to redeem plex to pay for them, at a reasonable time cost, then they go. Eventually the main follows, if he has not already.
It is not reasonable for anyone to request that you voluntarily, give up a highly profitable, and well played technique, for the good of the game, as others would simply step in and all that that would result in in you losing out.
But in one form or another the unique nature of pilots services, will be clarified, and enforced if needed. The alternative is really something that cannot persist and expand if we wish EVE to have a healthy future. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1191
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 11:49:29 -
[807] - Quote
I can't imagine the hell of playing this game with only one account.
I don't think that's a curse any of my friends are interested in either, except for the few that have been strictly one account only forever. The game just doesn't function very well with only one account, it's almost as if that was intentional. |
motie one
Secret Passage
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 11:54:59 -
[808] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:I can't imagine the hell of playing this game with only one account.
I don't think that's a curse any of my friends are interested in either, except for the few that have been strictly one account only forever. The game just doesn't function very well with only one account, it's almost as if that was intentional. Absolutely true, Plex WAS a mechanism to allow growth into that possibility, where one had alts soaking Up commodities from the economy. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1191
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 12:09:59 -
[809] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Just how many of your friends have put alts into hibernation because it is too time consuming to grind for the cost of plex? and are unhappy with the loss of funtionality and fun that results in, even though they are still holding on to their main for now? Zero, as far as I can tell. My friends have left the game because it is bad, or because other games are better, or because they are getting older and now have wives and kids that take up the time that they used to devote to EVE, or because after playing the game for X years they've just had enough of it. That said, none of my friends are poor, because they are either independently wealthy in EVE or because they have me as a friend and I **** out money like the proverbial golden goose. Actually, maybe half of one.
I personally cut down from around 25 subbed accounts to my current 8-9 about a year ago. I didn't do that because the PLEX prices rose, although that certainly gave me an additional incentive to do so.
I did that because CCP banned my main for something I didn't do, made me go through customer service hell to get myself re-instated, dealing with the most unhelpful and rude people I've ever had to deal with in customer service roles, gave me the most weak apology I have ever seen when they finally figured out they had banned me in error and gave me an insult for reimbursement.
However, I've chosen not to re-sub those accounts, even a year after the event, because (1) CCP still haven't made good on their past behaviour and (2) High PLEX prices make the cold hard business maths of re-subbing those accounts somewhat unattractive. |
motie one
Secret Passage
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 13:28:16 -
[810] - Quote
That must be a miserable experience, my sympathies. |
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1191
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 13:46:51 -
[811] - Quote
motie one wrote:That must be a miserable experience, my sympathies. At the time it was a pain, but EVE is full of such pains and the life of a successful EVE player is shaped by how they adapt and overcome such obstacles.
I'm more concerned about the fact that CCP lost over -ú3000 in income from me as a result of a minor act of incompetence and I'm certain that I wasn't the only person impacted. Despite the fact that each cancelled sub had that as the reason for cancellation there hasn't been even so much as a mail to smooth things over with me. If I treated my RL clients like that, I wouldn't have any clients. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1191
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 14:09:37 -
[812] - Quote
So back on topic.
The PLEX price is now 1184 Buy / 1206 Sell. I don't think any suggested crash is happening.
We're going to see 1.3B again, but more slowly.
We may well see 1.5B by December.
There will be the traditional slump during the holiday season.
Then in the new year PLEX prices will reach for the stars.
This is assuming that CCP don't make any fundamental changes. I'm not talking about central bank intervention, because those will happen when needed to prevent insane spikes as we have seen in the past.
I personally don't care too much if CCP does or doesn't make any fundamental changes because I'm happy with PLEX price being the price people are prepared to pay for PLEX. But you, motie one, have a desire to see some change to deal with your perceived issue. The idea of a NPC order is ridiculous and entirely the opposite of the way EVE is headed. so you should give up any hope of that or anything like it. You could however get behind more viable changes to bring about your desired lowering of the PLEX price, which would have to be something to do with account structure and subscription changes.
Personally, I'd like to see myself only have one account with all my characters on it, not 9 active accounts and 16 inactive accounts. I'd like to see the ability to pay monthly for the particular services I require from CCP. Be that the ability to train X characters on my account, the ability to log on X concurrent characters on my account or the ability to do any other thing CCP can dream up. I'd also love to see this because it would herald the end of having to pay 2 PLEX whenever I need to move a character from one of my own accounts to another of my own accounts for organisational purposes. It would also mean I'd only need one username and password rather than the dictionary of username/password pairs I currently have to manage.
If PLEX become simply the units of payment for the services you use on your account, then PLEX will be a lot better than they are now and accounts will be a lot better than they are now.
If CCP also reduce the RL currency price of Subs/PLEX, we'll probably see some, but not all, of the change you desire. |
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
34494
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 14:40:35 -
[813] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:I can't imagine the hell of playing this game with only one account.
I don't think that's a curse any of my friends are interested in either, except for the few that have been strictly one account only forever. The game just doesn't function very well with only one account, it's almost as if that was intentional.
As a tangent, something something bad design.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17079
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 15:41:36 -
[814] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: The only solution, if indeed there is one, is to encourage more people to buy PLEX with RL currency and make them available on the market. This will occur naturally once more people are playing the game, enjoying it and are willing to invest more RL currency in it.
My personal feeling is that CCP should lower the monthy subscription cost and the PLEX cost, because in today's gaming marketplace the product they are providing isn't worth the price they are charging for it. But that's very much my personal opinion and CCP's numbers may not agree with me or their financial situation may not be able to endure that change.
My thoughts precisely. Not least because an EVE with 1.5x players paying $10/month is substantially more resilient, attractive and entertaining than one with 1.0x players paying $15/month.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1193
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 15:57:31 -
[815] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: The only solution, if indeed there is one, is to encourage more people to buy PLEX with RL currency and make them available on the market. This will occur naturally once more people are playing the game, enjoying it and are willing to invest more RL currency in it.
My personal feeling is that CCP should lower the monthy subscription cost and the PLEX cost, because in today's gaming marketplace the product they are providing isn't worth the price they are charging for it. But that's very much my personal opinion and CCP's numbers may not agree with me or their financial situation may not be able to endure that change.
My thoughts precisely. Not least because an EVE with 1.5x players paying $10/month is substantially more resilient, attractive and entertaining than one with 1.0x players paying $15/month. Assuming the hamsters don't die under the strain, I can't see any reason why we wouldn't want that.
When you were on the CSM, was the subject of pricing ever discussed? |
motie one
Secret Passage
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 16:19:11 -
[816] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:So back on topic.
The PLEX price is now 1184 Buy / 1206 Sell. I don't think any suggested crash is happening.
We're going to see 1.3B again, but more slowly.
We may well see 1.5B by December.
There will be the traditional slump during the holiday season.
Then in the new year PLEX prices will reach for the stars.
This is assuming that CCP don't make any fundamental changes. I'm not talking about central bank intervention, because those will happen when needed to prevent insane spikes as we have seen in the past.
I personally don't care too much if CCP does or doesn't make any fundamental changes because I'm happy with PLEX price being the price people are prepared to pay for PLEX. But you, motie one, have a desire to see some change to deal with your perceived issue. The idea of a NPC order is ridiculous and entirely the opposite of the way EVE is headed. so you should give up any hope of that or anything like it. You could however get behind more viable changes to bring about your desired lowering of the PLEX price, which would have to be something to do with account structure and subscription changes.
Personally, I'd like to see myself only have one account with all my characters on it, not 9 active accounts and 16 inactive accounts. I'd like to see the ability to pay monthly for the particular services I require from CCP. Be that the ability to train X characters on my account, the ability to log on X concurrent characters on my account or the ability to do any other thing CCP can dream up. I'd also love to see this because it would herald the end of having to pay 2 PLEX whenever I need to move a character from one of my own accounts to another of my own accounts for organisational purposes. It would also mean I'd only need one username and password rather than the dictionary of username/password pairs I currently have to manage.
If PLEX become simply the units of payment for the services you use on your account, then PLEX will be a lot better than they are now and accounts will be a lot better than they are now.
If CCP also reduce the RL currency price of Subs/PLEX, we'll probably see some, but not all, of the change you desire.
Do not be too distracted, by attributing my comments to personal desire. I simply desire working tools.
What changes occur to restore Plex into a means of Average players gaining some benefit from it's existance, are really a matter for CCP to design, they can take the long term, if they have time and manipulate and wrangle it down to a level they deem viable, or if time is short, implement a design that MAY be similar to my suggestions or something quite different , but either way, drawing a line in the sand stating that players speculate with this commodity at their peril.
It can be argued that such behaviour is not like EVE, but in reality, it is very much so, one does not exploit clearly defined in game tools without a reaction in return. The fact that this has not been visible up to now, does not mean they will close their eyes and mouths indefinately.
All that is really needed is for CCP to state how importantly they see Plex as a tool. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
686
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 18:49:23 -
[817] - Quote
Why must the average player be able to afford in-game PLEX with ISK? I would imagine the average player is already paying for the subscription with IRL $ anyway.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3414
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 19:02:53 -
[818] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Why must the average player be able to afford in-game PLEX with ISK? I would imagine the average player is already paying for the subscription with IRL $ anyway.
I don't know, but it seems to be an assumption held by most people who think PLEX prices are too high. Personally I think it is a dumb assumption. It is dumb because it means half the Eve population is paying via PLEX with ISK, while the other half is paying via subs and also buying PLEX.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 19:37:42 -
[819] - Quote
It seems the high prices yearly stable increase percentages affect the player base or logged accounts decline ...
Less players could afford to pay their pilot extension license for extra time at 1.5b ISK. Less players at 2b ISK.
Unless... Unless the cash flow increases and is directly related to the PLEx values. |
motie one
Secret Passage
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 20:24:01 -
[820] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Why must the average player be able to afford in-game PLEX with ISK? I would imagine the average player is already paying for the subscription with IRL $ anyway.
Most players will pay for their primary character with real world subs, and alts with Plex. Except many are not any more, hence the issue.
Eve without alts is very limited once you get past a certain pont, and after hibernating alts the game is less fun.
Think about what happens next when the game is less fun. |
|
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 20:25:07 -
[821] - Quote
motie one wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote:Why must the average player be able to afford in-game PLEX with ISK? I would imagine the average player is already paying for the subscription with IRL $ anyway. Most players will pay for their primary character with real world subs, and alts with Plex. Except many are not any more, hence the issue. That makes sense, still a lot of people. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
686
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 23:52:47 -
[822] - Quote
Perhaps CCP doesn't want alts, perhaps they want players .
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5373
|
Posted - 2015.09.28 00:42:19 -
[823] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Perhaps CCP doesn't want alts, perhaps they want players .
What CCP want is people with RL money that are willing to spend it on EVE, either to pay for a subscription, or to engage in the sanctioned RMT that is purchasing a PLEX pack from an authorized distributor.
Either works.
All that end users of PLEX do for CCP is change how desireable sanctioned RMT is to people by altering how much ISK they get for their PLEX pack. Which, ironically, is exactly the same thing that a speculator with a trillion liquid ISK buying up 900 PLEX from the in-game market with intent to resell them 'when the time is right' does.
Edit: Worth saying that the changed PLEX:ISK exchange ratio has one more big effect that's actually a bit of a negative. If a player desires 8b ISK and wishes to get there via sanctioned RMT, two years ago they'd have needed to buy a much larger PLEX pack than they do today. Yet the ISK price of many of the goods they might consider buying haven't changed that much.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3416
|
Posted - 2015.09.28 03:11:37 -
[824] - Quote
Lieu Thiesant wrote:It seems the high prices yearly stable increase percentages affect the player base or logged accounts decline ...
Less players could afford to pay their pilot extension license for extra time at 1.5b ISK. Less players at 2b ISK.
Unless... Unless the cash flow increases and is directly related to the PLEx values.
Dude you get an F in time series analysis.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
motie one
Secret Passage
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.28 03:50:14 -
[825] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Perhaps CCP doesn't want alts, perhaps they want players .
Well, CCP are a business who Are not based on the "MBA "model, that earns the shareholders a big dividend this year and Let the next CEO worry about if there is a next year.
To exist long term They need people in space so paying subscribers have someone to interact with.
I could explain how alts lets people broaden their game and spend more time logged in, but I think we all know that?
Remember, happy engaged players tend to stay subscribed. Frustrated, players who have hibernated their alts, less so.
What would you choose as a good business model? |
motie one
Secret Passage
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.28 03:56:33 -
[826] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: The only solution, if indeed there is one, is to encourage more people to buy PLEX with RL currency and make them available on the market. This will occur naturally once more people are playing the game, enjoying it and are willing to invest more RL currency in it.
My personal feeling is that CCP should lower the monthy subscription cost and the PLEX cost, because in today's gaming marketplace the product they are providing isn't worth the price they are charging for it. But that's very much my personal opinion and CCP's numbers may not agree with me or their financial situation may not be able to endure that change.
My thoughts precisely. Not least because an EVE with 1.5x players paying $10/month is substantially more resilient, attractive and entertaining than one with 1.0x players paying $15/month.
Very true, I have often wondered, why they feel they need to set their prices at a level to deter customers? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3416
|
Posted - 2015.09.28 04:23:21 -
[827] - Quote
motie one wrote:Malcanis wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: The only solution, if indeed there is one, is to encourage more people to buy PLEX with RL currency and make them available on the market. This will occur naturally once more people are playing the game, enjoying it and are willing to invest more RL currency in it.
My personal feeling is that CCP should lower the monthy subscription cost and the PLEX cost, because in today's gaming marketplace the product they are providing isn't worth the price they are charging for it. But that's very much my personal opinion and CCP's numbers may not agree with me or their financial situation may not be able to endure that change.
My thoughts precisely. Not least because an EVE with 1.5x players paying $10/month is substantially more resilient, attractive and entertaining than one with 1.0x players paying $15/month. Very true, I have often wondered, why they feel they need to set their prices at a level to deter customers?
Is it though? It all depends on the price elasticity of demand. For example, if the price elasticity of demand is -1 then a 10% decrease in the RL price of PLEX ($19.95 to $17.95) would only boost RL sales by 10%--i.e. CCP makes just as much money after the price change as before. If price is inelastic, say -0.5, then a 10% reduction in sales implies a boost in sales of 0.05% or CCP looses money or conversely CCP should raise the price of PLEX by 10% and reduce sales by only 5%.
If the price elasticity is -2 then reducing the price by 10% implies a 20% increase in sales, implying a price decrease will make more money for CCP.
Given that Eve is probably a luxury good it is probably price elastic...i.e. dropping the price is probably a good thing.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
motie one
Secret Passage
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.28 17:03:54 -
[828] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote:Malcanis wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: The only solution, if indeed there is one, is to encourage more people to buy PLEX with RL currency and make them available on the market. This will occur naturally once more people are playing the game, enjoying it and are willing to invest more RL currency in it.
My personal feeling is that CCP should lower the monthy subscription cost and the PLEX cost, because in today's gaming marketplace the product they are providing isn't worth the price they are charging for it. But that's very much my personal opinion and CCP's numbers may not agree with me or their financial situation may not be able to endure that change.
My thoughts precisely. Not least because an EVE with 1.5x players paying $10/month is substantially more resilient, attractive and entertaining than one with 1.0x players paying $15/month. Very true, I have often wondered, why they feel they need to set their prices at a level to deter customers? Is it though? It all depends on the price elasticity of demand. For example, if the price elasticity of demand is -1 then a 10% decrease in the RL price of PLEX ($19.95 to $17.95) would only boost RL sales by 10%--i.e. CCP makes just as much money after the price change as before. If price is inelastic, say -0.5, then a 10% reduction in sales implies a boost in sales of 0.05% or CCP looses money or conversely CCP should raise the price of PLEX by 10% and reduce sales by only 5%. If the price elasticity is -2 then reducing the price by 10% implies a 20% increase in sales, implying a price decrease will make more money for CCP. Given that Eve is probably a luxury good it is probably price elastic...i.e. dropping the price is probably a good thing.
I would like to believe their marketing department has a good handle on things, but the occasional offer where short subscriptions or small plex purchases are better value than the large ones doesn't inspire confidence. |
motie one
Secret Passage
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 15:29:34 -
[829] - Quote
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2AbxlFJHt6M
Scope news pretty much making the "plex stabilisation action" unmistakeable. Some seriously low plex offers with their partners too.
Let's see if the speculators, can keep their support levels, or whether they get broken through, and by how much. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3423
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 15:35:59 -
[830] - Quote
motie one wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2AbxlFJHt6M
Scope news pretty much making the "plex stabilisation action" unmistakeable. Some seriously low plex offers with their partners too.
Let's see if the speculators, can keep their support levels, or whether they get broken through, and by how much.
Uhhmmm what?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
|
Nouva MacGyver
MacGyver Communications
21
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 16:24:41 -
[831] - Quote
"Love your plex? BUY ONLINE NOW!"
Heh, couldn't resist. That's a pretty damn awesome shade of yellow over the button in the market window.
In other news - business as usual in Plexland! |
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 18:39:48 -
[832] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dude you get an F in time series analysis. I get nothing in time series analysis since I did not do any ...
Additionally, judging by your judgment , why should I bother trying if it is not worth the try ?
Btw, I just made my first easy 2 billion earlier today in the last 14 hours hours... (At that rate I'd make over 700 billion year 1 of trading.)
And I'll even hide the bottom line to justify raising undue suspicion and lie about it for good faith. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3423
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 18:48:42 -
[833] - Quote
Lieu Thiesant wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dude you get an F in time series analysis. I get nothing in time series analysis since I did not do any ... Additionally, judging by your judgment , why should I bother trying if it is not worth the try ? Btw, I just made my first easy 2 billion earlier today in the last 14 hours hours... (At that rate I'd make over 700 billion year 1 of trading.) And I'll even hide the bottom line to justify raising undue suspicion and lie about it for good faith.
You made this comment:
Quote:It seems the high prices yearly stable increase percentages affect the player base or logged accounts decline ...
To my eye, there is no relationship at all. Now to really test it I'd need PCU data and PLEX price data. But given that PLEX prices have been steadily rising, and PCU have been rising then falling. There could be a relationship, but I think PLEX prices have damn little do with players logged in or subs.
People like to make this claim, but it is backed up by exactly nothing. My guess it is because are pushing an agenda that benefits them and cloak it in dopey "it will be good for the game" argument. Could be worse, they could be arguing it would good for new players.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 19:06:41 -
[834] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:You made this comment: Quote:It seems the high prices yearly stable increase percentages affect the player base or logged accounts decline ... To my eye, there is no relationship at all. The proper interpretation of those related data was meant in the following sense: 1. the high prices (of the PLEx) = the current high prices of the PLEx or price spike... 2. yearly stable increase = (or could be interpreted as) the recurrent yearly increases in around the "back to school" period which runs from around September to October. Note that, even for that period, after paying attention, is from around mid-August to before October. The PLEx peak of that period from the previous years at the exact same time period, or approximately the same time period, extends to beyond that time frame. Perhaps due to extended side effect of the sudden change in the player base or player base behavior. (Now, if you were to review the above interpretation, you would find there are more than one points condensed.) 3. yearly stable increase percentage = - 3.a. the yearly stable increase, as per 2. above, is related to the fact that the PLEx value increases steadily from years to years not only at the same period but also by the same percentage. Which leads to : - 3.b. yearly stable increase percentage = which is the same percentage increase (stable by the way) as mentionned in 3.a. above. - 3.c. it doesn't really matter how many times I would try to make it seem like if it made no-sense, it is still facts. Just to interpret it as non-sense doesn't justify the results or condition or the player base behaviors affecting those facts , in those given conditions. 4. affect the player base or logged accounts decline ... = as per 3.b. above, again, and 3.c. and 3.a., on top of that, it all leads to the exact same outcome , conclusion, no matter how much cover up or attempt to change the facts.
Teckos Pech wrote:... Now to really test it I'd need PCU data and PLEX price data. What do you mean by PCU data? Do you mean Peak Concurrent User by PCU data?
Teckos Pech wrote:... But given that PLEX prices have been steadily rising, and PCU have been rising then falling. There could be a relationship, but I think PLEX prices have damn little do with players logged in or subs.
People like to make this claim, but it is backed up by exactly nothing. My guess it is because are pushing an agenda that benefits them and cloak it in dopey "it will be good for the game" argument. Could be worse, they could be arguing it would good for new players.
The solution to, or the crux of the matter was that, players logged less alts accounts , but the same amounts of online players remained.
Less PLEx supply = less PLExed accounts for Alt being active ingame = More PLEx demand = Higher PLEx value.
A higher PLEx value is not necessarily bad, it just has some outcomes. Some of which outcomes of the PLEx value being higher are , decline in numbers.
I didn't read your whole post and I don't think I will have the time to read it much more or at a faster rate.
However, contrary to you, I don't believe it would be a good idea to just contradict you and make you seem as bad or with an F in some course you didn't register with. (Unless I don't have you on file.?) |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3423
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 19:22:52 -
[835] - Quote
Lieu Thiesant wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:You made this comment: Quote:It seems the high prices yearly stable increase percentages affect the player base or logged accounts decline ... To my eye, there is no relationship at all. The proper interpretation of those related data was meant in the following sense: 1. the high prices (of the PLEx) = the current high prices of the PLEx or price spike... 2. yearly stable increase = (or could be interpreted as) the recurrent yearly increases in around the "back to school" period which runs from around September to October. Note that, even for that period, after paying attention, is from around mid-August to before October. The PLEx peak of that period from the previous years at the exact same time period, or approximately the same time period, extends to beyond that time frame. Perhaps due to extended side effect of the sudden change in the player base or player base behavior. (Now, if you were to review the above interpretation, you would find there are more than one points condensed.) 3. yearly stable increase percentage = - 3.a. the yearly stable increase, as per 2. above, is related to the fact that the PLEx value increases steadily from years to years not only at the same period but also by the same percentage. Which leads to : - 3.b. yearly stable increase percentage = which is the same percentage increase (stable by the way) as mentionned in 3.a. above. - 3.c. it doesn't really matter how many times I would try to make it seem like if it made no-sense, it is still facts. Just to interpret it as non-sense doesn't justify the results or condition or the player base behaviors affecting those facts , in those given conditions. 4. affect the player base or logged accounts decline ... = as per 3.b. above, again, and 3.c. and 3.a., on top of that, it all leads to the exact same outcome , conclusion, no matter how much cover up or attempt to change the facts. Teckos Pech wrote:... Now to really test it I'd need PCU data and PLEX price data. What do you mean by PCU data? Do you mean Peak Concurrent User by PCU data? Teckos Pech wrote:... But given that PLEX prices have been steadily rising, and PCU have been rising then falling. There could be a relationship, but I think PLEX prices have damn little do with players logged in or subs.
People like to make this claim, but it is backed up by exactly nothing. My guess it is because are pushing an agenda that benefits them and cloak it in dopey "it will be good for the game" argument. Could be worse, they could be arguing it would good for new players. The solution to, or the crux of the matter was that, players logged less alts accounts , but the same amounts of online players remained. Less PLEx supply = less PLExed accounts for Alt being active ingame = More PLEx demand = Higher PLEx value. A higher PLEx value is not necessarily bad, it just has some outcomes. Some of which outcomes of the PLEx value being higher are , decline in numbers. I didn't read your whole post and I don't think I will have the time to read it much more or at a faster rate. However, contrary to you, I don't believe it would be a good idea to just contradict you and make you seem as bad or with an F in some course you didn't register with. (Unless I don't have you on file.?)
I actually did down load PLEX prices for a number of years and then I ran a simple model with a trend variable and monthly and weekly dummy variables (December and the last week of the year omitted to avoid the problem of perfect multi-collinearity). The basic result was that not one dummy variable was statistically significant at the 5%. The only variable that was significant was trend variable.
In other words, for PLEX prices there is no "back to school" effect. If there were, it would be noted in the monthly dummy variable. It is not, so it is highly unlikely there is one.
The idea that PLEX prices fluctuate with the number of players online just does not seem to hold water. We see very, very strong seasonality in the PCU data. We do not see even remotely similar seasonal patterns in PLEX prices.
Your "facts" just don't stand up to scrutiny.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 19:47:46 -
[836] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I actually did down load PLEX prices for a number of years and then I ran a simple model with a trend variable and monthly and weekly dummy variables (December and the last week of the year omitted to avoid the problem of perfect multi-collinearity). The basic result was that not one dummy variable was statistically significant at the 5%. The only variable that was significant was trend variable.
In other words, for PLEX prices there is no "back to school" effect. If there were, it would be noted in the monthly dummy variable. It is not, so it is highly unlikely there is one.
The idea that PLEX prices fluctuate with the number of players online just does not seem to hold water. We see very, very strong seasonality in the PCU data. We do not see even remotely similar seasonal patterns in PLEX prices.
Your "facts" just don't stand up to scrutiny.
Can I EVE Mail you outside of the forums?
Can you be reached for communication otherwise?
It seems to me that your scrutiny is not as accurate as you make it seem. You seem to prefer to get away with mixing up my facts with how you like to misinterpret them for your own credit. You also seem fond of investing into systems to discredit me if not to reuse those systems to discredit others.
All research aside: Where can "the data for your model with a trend variable to avoid the problem of perfect mutil-collinearity" be analysed? Are there studies on this? If so who has done those studies, and are there ongoing studies? I highly doubt that a "Dummy variable" will hardly be able to pass tests of integrity in regards to the related statements advanced.
The change in price is 10% to 20% , steadily repeating over 3 years practically to potentially up 4 years which would be next year.
There is no back to school effect in PLEx however the same change occurred at the exact same critical creeping point. The reverse is more true, that the fact that the player base does try to buy more PLEx to pay for Alt account since they have less time to earn the PLEx value of their accounts to but those PLEx, affects the value of the PLEx.
If you don't mind, I would like to use your statements when you say that my "facts" don't stand up to scrutiny, for copyright ... The fact that my "facts" don't stand up to your judgment or indictments perhaps is more close to reality. I would want to transfer those rights to my descendants since it would be rather peculiar if it proved to be false... It would make it very hard for them to discern the truth in regards to security related facts.
By the way, what kind of use Your monthly dummy variable or any other flags you may be using, even if those flags are for jet fighter decent on an aircraft carrier, or even the largest new carriers, did you refer to.?. And how does that relate to time period when players leave and ways to divert from facts? |
motie one
Secret Passage
37
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 20:37:40 -
[837] - Quote
The truth is, no matter how we attempt to extract conclusions from the data, the data available is too restricted to approach an answer with any degree of confidence.
CCP do however have access to all the data, across the board, they are hopefully aware of the effect the plex price has on player and alt retention, and whether there is a tipping point, and whether we have passed it.
The critical data is redemptions of plex in relation to circulation. This they can work into their other data points. I would love to see what effects that has As it changes.
If they have not analysed the data, well, then they shouldn't be surprised by the drop in their bottom line and prospects of continuing employment.
We will be able to determine the answer by watching their actions. But clear interference on Friday, dropping massive hints in the last scope video, and now a plex sale, including their partners might give us a clue? |
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 21:58:51 -
[838] - Quote
motie one wrote:The truth is, no matter how we attempt to extract conclusions from the data, the data available is too restricted to approach an answer with any degree of confidence.
CCP do however have access to all the data, across the board, they are hopefully aware of the effect the plex price has on player and alt retention, and whether there is a tipping point, and whether we have passed it.
The critical data is redemptions of plex in relation to circulation. This they can work into their other data points. I would love to see what effects that has As it changes.
If they have not analysed the data, well, then they shouldn't be surprised by the drop in their bottom line and prospects of continuing employment.
We will be able to determine the answer by watching their actions. But clear interference on Friday, dropping massive hints in the last scope video, and now a plex sale, including their partners might give us a clue? I don't have your data and mine is very limited and for that reason will not cover the scope of the matter.
However, there are degree or ratios of exactitude in regards to the PLEx Price changing value at the same time as the school year start , or the "back to school" period.
I wasn't the first one to mention it, and the PLEx price raise of last year or 2 years ago in 2013 was referred to as that time period, during the back to school period.
Maybe it is 60% related or 40% related , I don't have the exact or even approximate ratios of those more specific factors yet, and I would have to invest more efforts into defining them or even the methods to derive their number.
... But it is diverting me from the fact.
Edit: Oh yes... I can save PLEx for next year as the price may change during the school period, or even in 2 years in 2017, as a speculation. However, other risks such as security matters, or the time it takes to have an account un-ban diminishes the value or profit. (Not to be omitted out of the equation for profit or return on investment.)
By the way, I do design systems, and also, calculations systems, yes. |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
81
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 22:39:10 -
[839] - Quote
Lieu, what are you doing that is getting your accounts banned? Perhaps you should cease such activities so that your "ban risk" =0 ? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3426
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 22:39:22 -
[840] - Quote
Lieu Thiesant wrote: Can I EVE Mail you outside of the forums?
Can you be reached for communication otherwise?
It seems to me that your scrutiny is not as accurate as you make it seem. You seem to prefer to get away with mixing up my facts with how you like to misinterpret them for your own credit. You also seem fond of investing into systems to discredit me if not to reuse those systems to discredit others.
All research aside: Where can "the data for your model with a trend variable to avoid the problem of perfect mutil-collinearity" be analysed? Are there studies on this? If so who has done those studies, and are there ongoing studies? I highly doubt that a "Dummy variable" will hardly be able to pass tests of integrity in regards to the related statements advanced.
The data is available here. It is in Excel, I imported it into another software program to analyze it to remove the ISK from the daily average price. You'll have to add your additional variables. Excel can handle linear regression analysis, but it is somewhat limited.
Quote:There is no back to school effect in PLEx however the same change occurred at the exact same critical creeping point. The reverse is more true, that the fact that the player base does try to buy more PLEx to pay for Alt account since they have less time to earn the PLEx value of their accounts to but those PLEx, affects the value of the PLEx.
Not trying to be a jerk here...but, so now there is no "back to school" effect, but a reverse one? Or that number of alts is the driving factor?
Quote:By the way, what kind of use Your monthly dummy variable or any other flags you may be using, even if those flags are for jet fighter decent on an aircraft carrier, or even the largest new carriers, did you refer to.?. And how does that relate to time period when players leave and ways to divert from facts?
I am not sure what you are asking here, but dummy variables are simple variables that take on a value of 1 if a condition holds, zero otherwise. They are helpful in analyzing seasonality, marginalizing out outliers, or even to change the slope of a trend variable. I wanted to see if there were any seasonal effects in PLEX prices after controlling for the trend. I found none.
As for the PCU data I have looked at the graphs of the data but was not able to down load the data itself. Still by looking at the two graphs it seems unlikely that PCU numbers would provide much explanation for PLEX prices of vice-versa.
So I am highly skeptical of the claims about PLEX prices and what the portend for the game. In fact, what passes for analysis on the forums when it comes to markets is just terrible. Look at the front page with claims of manipulation and crashes and even a goofy reference to T2 BPOs (note they didn't crash because of a bubble, the implication, but because the last round of industry changes indirectly nerfed T2 BPOs into the ground). Now most of them are worthless except as collectors items. Now that there are infinite slots, POS' not being necessary, and so forth why invest in a T2 BPO that will take several years to recoup your initial investment?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3427
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 22:51:13 -
[841] - Quote
Xanato Kaso wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Xanato Kaso wrote:Awesome MILF wrote:in fact I'm surprised PLEX doesnt cost like 3b, provided most people brag about earning hundreds of millions passively every day. Xanato Kaso wrote:I have 7 accounts. its getting rediculous. I have to spend so much time playing the game doing what i dont want just so i can play the game. and each month its costing more and more time. why? cus some buttheads want to have phat bank sucks. may I suggest STOP the obsession and play the GAME? There's no way you ENJOY eve online if you run 7 accounts. You have converted the game into a JOB. stop it mate. I enjoy mining. 6 of my toons are dedicated towards mining and this one is towards combat. but I have to spend a lot of time mining just to pay for PLEXES when i could be using those minerals for my industry goals. all due to the super inflated price of PLEX. It's more the fact that you picked one of the lowest isk activities in the game I enjoy mining, I just dont enjoy having the fruits of my labor get wasted on PLEX, and then having to waste even more because someone felt like manipulating the market.
I'm sorry, but how would one manipulate a market in Eve? Keep in mind that market manipulation usually entails misleading other market participants. If I started a rumor that CCP was going to raise the price of PLEX, ran around to different forums, tried to get websites to comment on it, and people reacted by suddenly snapping up PLEX driving the prices even higher, then dumped my personal stash of PLEX at the elevated price...that would be manipulation. I manipulated other market participants into doing something they otherwise wouldn't in an attempt to benefit.
Trying to buy up PLEX at the current price to drive the price even higher...yeah not going to work. History shows that people who try to corner the market often end up wrecked and ruined.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2015.09.29 23:22:11 -
[842] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Lieu, what are you doing that is getting your accounts banned? Perhaps you should cease such activities so that your "ban risk" =0 ? For one thing, you seem to try to put the onus on me. Number 2, I didn't do anything that is getting my accounts banned. #3, you mention that perhaps I should cease such activities so that my "ban risk" = 0? - How can I logically cease to do an activity that I did not start or never did if that will lower my "ban risk" = 0? - Are you suggesting that I start the activity I did not do while investing to set up electronic systems to detect who and when and how I would be asked to do such a thing which would be illegal in fact. - My ban risk is way lower than zero. I don't think it would be all that good to see that risk go up to zero which is the balance between good and wrong. I have way too many accounts invested to make it worthwhile. As for the PLEx instance itself, it was only targeted to 1 account and so I got 5 PLEx on another account after.
Teckos Pech wrote: I am not sure what you are asking here, but dummy variables are simple variables that take on a value of 1 if a condition holds, zero otherwise. They are helpful in analyzing seasonality, marginalizing out outliers, or even to change the slope of a trend variable. I wanted to see if there were any seasonal effects in PLEX prices after controlling for the trend. I found none.
As for the PCU data I have looked at the graphs of the data but was not able to down load the data itself. Still by looking at the two graphs it seems unlikely that PCU numbers would provide much explanation for PLEX prices of vice-versa.
So I am highly skeptical of the claims about PLEX prices and what the portend for the game. In fact, what passes for analysis on the forums when it comes to markets is just terrible. Look at the front page with claims of manipulation and crashes and even a goofy reference to T2 BPOs (note they didn't crash because of a bubble, the implication, but because the last round of industry changes indirectly nerfed T2 BPOs into the ground). Now most of them are worthless except as collectors items. Now that there are infinite slots, POS' not being necessary, and so forth why invest in a T2 BPO that will take several years to recoup your initial investment?
Right but You'd have to show me the programs you used that switch, dummy variable or flag on. How can I guess what you are referring to without any tangible example, references, or otherwise facts to refer to. I don't mean to steal your secrets or rights for free but if you would give me a better idea of what you are advancing I could understand what you are referring to more. On the other hand, I could verify the subjects you are referring to such as : 1. seasonality, 2. marginalizing outliers, 3. change slope of a trend variable. 4. seasonal effects.
I don't have the PCU data and I don't have any graphs, nor their storage location, nor their data transfer related systems or data.
As for the PLEx prices being portend for the game, I do not believe so. However, I like to keep my numbers accurate and to analyse where things stand at in the greater scope or rather, in the larger image.
What passes on the forums is a lot worst than terrible to me, and quite frankly not even 25% just at all, although it seems right from the other end (or hand, funnily enough) at a higher level ratio.
Again, I don't want to intimidate or even have a bad influence on young analyst, but their scope of understanding cannot match most of the knowledge involved by themselves.
I would invest in a T2 BPO if I could loot it for free and , to create my own items, science wise instead of informing the market.
I have never invested much into science and research and manufacturing which are all related to science but I would prefer this than even Market PvP (which is inevitable as other PvP).
I would like to analyse the market and capital systems to verify the relative ROI or integrate additional factors such as source of module controls and risk to gather loot to ownerships ratio. Etc... |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3428
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 06:39:16 -
[843] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: I'm sorry, but how would one manipulate a market in Eve? Keep in mind that market manipulation usually entails misleading other market participants. If I started a rumor that CCP was going to raise the price of PLEX, ran around to different forums, tried to get websites to comment on it, and people reacted by suddenly snapping up PLEX driving the prices even higher, then dumped my personal stash of PLEX at the elevated price...that would be manipulation. I manipulated other market participants into doing something they otherwise wouldn't in an attempt to benefit myself.
Trying to buy up PLEX at the current price to drive the price even higher...yeah not going to work. History shows that people who try to corner the market often end up wrecked and ruined.
So about 7 hours later and nothing. Ok, so can we put to rest this complete Bravo Sierra of market manipulation?
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yvsyvz
50 Shades of Autism
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 10:34:03 -
[844] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: I'm sorry, but how would one manipulate a market in Eve? Keep in mind that market manipulation usually entails misleading other market participants. If I started a rumor that CCP was going to raise the price of PLEX, ran around to different forums, tried to get websites to comment on it, and people reacted by suddenly snapping up PLEX driving the prices even higher, then dumped my personal stash of PLEX at the elevated price...that would be manipulation. I manipulated other market participants into doing something they otherwise wouldn't in an attempt to benefit myself.
Trying to buy up PLEX at the current price to drive the price even higher...yeah not going to work. History shows that people who try to corner the market often end up wrecked and ruined.
So about 7 hours later and nothing. Ok, so can we put to rest this complete Bravo Sierra of market manipulation?
How can you be so naive? Just because there is no activity now of the players that do this Sierra, maybe they have made their cut, maybe they wait now to start the cycle again after the market cooled down. We dont know, but I know that there is no reasonable way to draw conclusions like you do. |
motie one
Secret Passage
40
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 10:39:12 -
[845] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: I'm sorry, but how would one manipulate a market in Eve? Keep in mind that market manipulation usually entails misleading other market participants. If I started a rumor that CCP was going to raise the price of PLEX, ran around to different forums, tried to get websites to comment on it, and people reacted by suddenly snapping up PLEX driving the prices even higher, then dumped my personal stash of PLEX at the elevated price...that would be manipulation. I manipulated other market participants into doing something they otherwise wouldn't in an attempt to benefit myself.
Trying to buy up PLEX at the current price to drive the price even higher...yeah not going to work. History shows that people who try to corner the market often end up wrecked and ruined.
So about 7 hours later and nothing. Ok, so can we put to rest this complete Bravo Sierra of market manipulation?
Rolling on floor having an attack of hysteria!
Of course there is market manipulation, No one EVER accused Eve players of not making the most of every mechanic.
There is a never ending attempt to raise the price of Plex. A blind earthworm living under a concrete tower block can see it happening every minute, every hour, every opportunity.
It makes sense to traders, it makes sense to speculators, it makes sense to holders. They would be certifiably idiotic if they did not. It is the one class of products, that has no competition, there is no other way of redeeming isk through to gametime, so they have the market by the .... Well, you know so OF COURSE they are going to exploit it for all they are worth. Even better, it is completely legal!
The fact that it takes a critical component of Eve's economy out of the regular reach of average players, is of no interest to them. Why should they care? It gets in the way of self interest, and if any one were to care about the health of the game, his competitors would eat him alive.
Concurrent players, number of subscriptions, people ceasing to even consider using plex to redeem for gametime, CCP's survival or not, are meaningless to them. Today they made Isk, and tomorrow, they will make ISK. Market PVP for the win!
What happens next month doesn't matter, they will profit take, and that's another day, deal with that when it comes. Somehow they believe, They can make Plex a never ending Gravy train, and they have been right so far.
One day though, that Gravy train will come off the rails, It may be sooner or later, but the health of the game is more important than peoples profits on a core and critical item. Smart people will have divested, leaving the foolish and unaware to cover their losses.
There are thousands of commodities, that are player produced, that are self regulating. Plenty of opportunity there without breaking the financial tools of EVE. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1195
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 12:44:56 -
[846] - Quote
Too much peyote and he's gone off the reservation again. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1200
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 13:37:39 -
[847] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:In fact, what passes for analysis on the forums when it comes to markets is just terrible. I agree with you there.
It rarely even qualifies as analysis.
30% wild ass guessing, 30% trolling, 30% manipulation attempts and at best 10% is actual analysis.
Teckos Pech wrote:Look at the front page with claims of manipulation and crashes and even a goofy reference to T2 BPOs (note they didn't crash because of a bubble, the implication, but because the last round of industry changes indirectly nerfed T2 BPOs into the ground). Now most of them are worthless except as collectors items. Now that there are infinite slots, POS' not being necessary, and so forth why invest in a T2 BPO that will take several years to recoup your initial investment? This being an excellent example. Not one bit of good analysis there.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3429
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 17:03:41 -
[848] - Quote
motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: I'm sorry, but how would one manipulate a market in Eve? Keep in mind that market manipulation usually entails misleading other market participants. If I started a rumor that CCP was going to raise the price of PLEX, ran around to different forums, tried to get websites to comment on it, and people reacted by suddenly snapping up PLEX driving the prices even higher, then dumped my personal stash of PLEX at the elevated price...that would be manipulation. I manipulated other market participants into doing something they otherwise wouldn't in an attempt to benefit myself.
Trying to buy up PLEX at the current price to drive the price even higher...yeah not going to work. History shows that people who try to corner the market often end up wrecked and ruined.
So about 7 hours later and nothing. Ok, so can we put to rest this complete Bravo Sierra of market manipulation? Rolling on floor having an attack of hysteria! Of course there is market manipulation, No one EVER accused Eve players of not making the most of every mechanic. There is a never ending attempt to raise the price of Plex. A blind earthworm living under a concrete tower block can see it happening every minute, every hour, every opportunity. It makes sense to traders, it makes sense to speculators, it makes sense to holders. They would be certifiably idiotic if they did not. It is the one class of products, that has no competition, there is no other way of redeeming isk through to gametime, so they have the market by the .... Well, you know so OF COURSE they are going to exploit it for all they are worth. Even better, it is completely legal! The fact that it takes a critical component of Eve's economy out of the regular reach of average players, is of no interest to them. Why should they care? It gets in the way of self interest, and if any one were to care about the health of the game, his competitors would eat him alive. Concurrent players, number of subscriptions, people ceasing to even consider using plex to redeem for gametime, CCP's survival or not, are meaningless to them. Today they made Isk, and tomorrow, they will make ISK. Market PVP for the win! What happens next month doesn't matter, they will profit take, and that's another day, deal with that when it comes. Somehow they believe, They can make Plex a never ending Gravy train, and they have been right so far. One day though, that Gravy train will come off the rails, It may be sooner or later, but the health of the game is more important than peoples profits on a core and critical item. Smart people will have divested, leaving the foolish and unaware to cover their losses. There are thousands of commodities, that are player produced, that are self regulating. Plenty of opportunity there without breaking the financial tools of EVE.
So you got nothing but a rant. Good to know.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3429
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 19:11:48 -
[849] - Quote
yvsyvz wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: I'm sorry, but how would one manipulate a market in Eve? Keep in mind that market manipulation usually entails misleading other market participants. If I started a rumor that CCP was going to raise the price of PLEX, ran around to different forums, tried to get websites to comment on it, and people reacted by suddenly snapping up PLEX driving the prices even higher, then dumped my personal stash of PLEX at the elevated price...that would be manipulation. I manipulated other market participants into doing something they otherwise wouldn't in an attempt to benefit myself.
Trying to buy up PLEX at the current price to drive the price even higher...yeah not going to work. History shows that people who try to corner the market often end up wrecked and ruined.
So about 7 hours later and nothing. Ok, so can we put to rest this complete Bravo Sierra of market manipulation? How can you be so naive? Just because there is no activity now of the players that do this Sierra, maybe they have made their cut, maybe they wait now to start the cycle again after the market cooled down. We dont know, but I know that there is no reasonable way to draw conclusions like you do.
Sure there is. Market manipulation usually entails the manipulator(s) misleading other market participants to do something they otherwise would not do that also benefits the manipulator(s). I already gave an example, if I ran around spreading a lie that CCP was going to raise RL PLEX prices many might think the following: CCP will sell fewer PLEX for RL money. That will lower the number of PLEX available in game. That will drive up the price. I better get in now and get my PLEX for cheap or invest for sale later. Thus, while my lie about RL PLEX prices did not change supply, the fact that other believed me changed the demand and thus the price. Further if I had already bought some PLEX prior to spreading my lie and having the price go up I could then dump my PLEX at a premium.
Problems with this are:
1. CCP might release a statement saying, GÇ£We are not going to raise PLEX prices for the foreseeable future.GÇ¥ 2.CCP might actually sell PLEX on the IG market if prices start to go up because of my attempt at market manipulation. 3.CCP might figure out that I spread the lie and decide it is a bannable offense.
Trying to GÇ£manipulateGÇ¥ the price by buying up PLEX is known as cornering the market and it doesnGÇÖt usually work too well. Once you start buying up whatever it is you are trying to corner the market on the price starts going up. Thus, you have to dump more money into the market to keep driving up the price. Right now PLEX prices are say, 1.2 billion. You buy up 10 at that price and then the price goes up to 1.3 billion. Now you have to invest 13 billion for the next 10, then 14 billion, then 15 billion. In other words, you have to invest larger and larger amounts to get those price increases. Further, there is nothing stopping people from buying PLEX in RL and cashing in on your price increaseGǪmaking it even harder to drive the price up. So you have to have very deep pockets and be willing to commit increasing amounts of ISK to keep driving up prices.
And when you get to your sell price, that last batch of PLEX have no or very small profit margin. That is, if your sell price is 2 billion, the last PLEX you bought were very near or at that price. So when you sell those you make nothing or very little. And the next batch youGÇÖll only make a small profit as well for two reasons. First, you bought those PLEX near your sell price and second as you start selling the price wills start dropping. And this goes for every batch of PLEX you bought. Another problem is, you are not the only one buying and selling PLEX. Others who were holding PLEX might see the price start to drop and dump their stocks as well accelerating the price decrease. So, it is a dumb strategy. Might look good for a bit as it did for the Hunt brothers when they tried to corner the silver market, but when trading rules changed and the price of silver plummeted and if not for a bailout from the government not only would they have been wiped out, but several large Wall Street brokerage firms as well. Or Sumitomo and their attempt to corner the copper marketGǪdidnGÇÖt end so well for them.
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motie one
Secret Passage
41
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 20:09:30 -
[850] - Quote
When pumping the price, is in the best interests of plex holders, speculators and traders, why would they not? We might call it manipulation, as it is. It is not cornering the market, nor most of the time is there any advantage in doing so, It is more a voluntary,widespread, uncoordinated cartel. Acting in this way however, is manipulation, you may not describe it as that, you may feel an ever increasing price is for the greater good? You would be wrong.
Plex is a commodity that is the only legal way of transferring effort into gametime. When the effort required exceeds the reward. Then the commodity as a tool is disfunctional. |
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3429
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 03:05:20 -
[851] - Quote
motie one wrote:When pumping the price, is in the best interests of plex holders, speculators and traders, why would they not? We might call it manipulation, as it is. It is not cornering the market, nor most of the time is there any advantage in doing that, It is more a voluntary,widespread, uncoordinated cartel. Desire and resultant.
Because you cannot sustain it with something like PLEX. When people try to corner the market they pick something where the supply cannot be quickly increased. For example, trying to corner the market on oranges is easier than something can be copied for very, very low cost. Orange growers can't just go suddenly grow more oranges, they'll have to plant more trees, wait for them to bear fruit, etc. PLEX...PLEX can be made by CCP to satisfy ANY demand. If people want 500 they can make 500, if they want 5,000,000 they can make 5,000,000 and all for very, very low cost and they can do it fast too.
Second, even in those cases where people have tried with something like silver, cocoa, and copper the end result is the same: failure.
Oh, and what you are describing is the definition of cornering the market.
Quote:Acting in this way however, is manipulation, you may not describe it as that, you may feel an ever increasing price is for the greater good? You would be wrong.
Dismissing manipulation using cases where manipulation is counterproductive, ignores the primary form of manipulation. This, is what prices Plex out of the reach of average players, with a resonable and achievable expenditure of effort
GMAFB on the greater good. What is the greater good? You PLEXing your account for a lower in game price? Others doing the same? How is that "good".
And the price has not always been increasing. Looking at the price data, the price clearly has long periods where it is stable. For example, the price dropped and stabilized right the big nerf to third party software like ISBoxer. How do you explain that? People just stopped trying to drive up the price?
What about the fact that CCP introduced additional items in game that can be purchsed with PLEX thereby increasing the demand. Increasing the demand will also increase the price. In fact, I have made the following case for increasing prices:
Fewer players in the game result in this picture. That is fewer people are buying RL PLEX to sell in game. That decreases the supply in game leading to this picture. Then CCP introduces things like skins increasing demand in game leading to this picture. So the in game price goes from P1 to P3 with only a modest decrease in the quantity on the market.
Yes, speculators might play a role driving up the price faster than it would if there was no price speculation, but so what? That is what speculators do. They might even lead to a brief over-shoot like we just saw...or somebody with a pile of PELX came back to the game and cashed out. Or it was a CCP intervention.
Quote:Any downward pressure is immidiately manipulated through the placing of buy,sell,and stop orders. Each one being replaced with a higher and higher one, whether end users are purchasing or not. It is now so embedded that minor price modification attempts such as Fridays , are swiftly countered as soon as they stop.
Really...and the fairly long period of relative price stability from January 2015 through April 2015 where PLEX prices moved around 800 million ISK? How do you explain that? Or the stable price for about 3-4 months in 2013? Care to explain that? Or why did the price decrease from December 2012 through February 2013? Or the relatively flat price from January 2012 through August 2012?
So explain to me how the in-game price of PLEX basically follows this pattern, stable prices, then a period where the price rises then stabilizes again for a period of time.
Have you thought of downloading the data, putting in say dummy variables for various things CCP has done like skins, the NEX store, sales of PLEX, etc.? No? Yeah, color me shocked.
HTFU.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3429
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 03:14:47 -
[852] - Quote
motie one wrote: Possibly, the time may have come for the ability to manufacture Plex in game, using in game WIDELY available purchasable NPC commodities.
Okay, I'll be nice here on this one.
This will never happen and is stupid beyond belief (trust me this is the nice response). PLEX are a revenue source for CCP. Allowing them to be "made" in game will do absolutely nothing but reduce CCP's revenue.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1204
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 03:59:14 -
[853] - Quote
1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
The combination of the CCP intervention at the end of last week and the ongoing PLEX sale appears to be having some effect. We've seen this before though and it will only be temporary.
I've already called the current stable price of plex at ~1.1B and I expect to see that rise to ~1.2B once these downward pressures have passed. It will be interesting to see if it falls bellow 1.1B this week, it will be a buying opportunity if it does. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3429
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 04:09:47 -
[854] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
The combination of the CCP intervention at the end of last week and the ongoing PLEX sale appears to be having some effect. We've seen this before though and it will only be temporary.
I've already called the current stable price of plex at ~1.1B and I expect to see that rise to ~1.2B once these downward pressures have passed. It will be interesting to see if it falls bellow 1.1B this week, it will be a buying opportunity if it does.
It will stabilize again...then start going up again. With brief periods of decreases. There are probably two factors, the huge amounts of ISK entering the New Eden economy, the huge amounts of ISK in many player's wallets.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1204
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 04:19:54 -
[855] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:It will stabilize again...then start going up again. With brief periods of decreases. I agree with you there.
Tbh, it's not even that unstable now.
Teckos Pech wrote:There are probably two factors, the huge amounts of ISK entering the New Eden economy, the huge amounts of ISK in many player's wallets. I think that's a gross oversimplification. There are many more factors involved in PLEX prices and it's that complexity that makes it difficult for inexperienced onlookers to comprehend. Plenty of people have tried to reduce it down to one or two factors in order to support their own point of view or agenda, but that's just propaganda. I've found it a pretty interesting market to trade in over the many years I've been (ab)using it.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3429
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 04:30:48 -
[856] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:It will stabilize again...then start going up again. With brief periods of decreases. I agree with you there. Tbh, it's not even that unstable now. Teckos Pech wrote:There are probably two factors, the huge amounts of ISK entering the New Eden economy, the huge amounts of ISK in many player's wallets. I think that's a gross oversimplification. There are many more factors involved in PLEX prices and it's that complexity that makes it difficult for inexperienced onlookers to comprehend. Plenty of people have tried to reduce it down to one or two factors in order to support their own point of view or agenda, but that's just propaganda. I've found it a pretty interesting market to trade in over the many years I've been (ab)using it.
I was referring to the tendency for prices to increase over time. You are right, there are lots of factors influencing PLEX prices. For example, the higher price in game will likely have a positive effect on the RL sales of PLEX. A sale on PLEX in RL will decrease IG prices, etc....so yeah, I kinda did over simplify.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1204
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 04:53:12 -
[857] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:There are probably two factors, the huge amounts of ISK entering the New Eden economy, the huge amounts of ISK in many player's wallets. I think that's a gross oversimplification. There are many more factors involved in PLEX prices and it's that complexity that makes it difficult for inexperienced onlookers to comprehend. Plenty of people have tried to reduce it down to one or two factors in order to support their own point of view or agenda, but that's just propaganda. I've found it a pretty interesting market to trade in over the many years I've been (ab)using it. I was referring to the tendency for prices to increase over time. You are right, there are lots of factors influencing PLEX prices. For example, the higher price in game will likely have a positive effect on the RL sales of PLEX. A sale on PLEX in RL will decrease IG prices, etc....so yeah, I kinda did over simplify. Plus:
- The perceived quality of the game impacts demand for PLEX both in-game and out of game, pushing the price both up and down.
- CCP's marketing efforts impact demand for PLEX both in-game and out of game, pushing the price both up and down.
- CCP's PR impacts demand for PLEX both in-game and out of game, pushing the price both up and down.
- The release of skins and other PLEX/Aurum related products push the price up.
- Alliance tournament PLEX buy-ins push the price of PLEX up.
- Fanfest ticket PLEX sales push the price of PLEX up.
- PLEX for good drives push the price of PLEX up.
- Changes in the polices of large alliances can impact price either way.
- The introduction of new skills increase demand for multiple training and push the price up.
- Features that encourage or discourage alts and multiboxing push prices up or down.
- The perceived trajectory of PLEX prices encourages or discourages stockpiling and/or investment, pushing prices either up or down.
- Low margin rapid update station traders discourage the use of casual buy and sell orders, impacting price.
- The actions of speculators push prices in one direction or another.
- The actions of manipulators push prices in one direction or another.
- The RL economy in different regions of the world impacts the affordability of PLEX and subscriptions, impacting price.
- Seasonal factors impact price.
- The public (miss-)understanding of the above factors can push the price up and/or down.
...and more besides. Notice that many of the factors I've listed impact the price both up and down at the same time, making their effect even more complex. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3429
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 05:23:18 -
[858] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:There are probably two factors, the huge amounts of ISK entering the New Eden economy, the huge amounts of ISK in many player's wallets. I think that's a gross oversimplification. There are many more factors involved in PLEX prices and it's that complexity that makes it difficult for inexperienced onlookers to comprehend. Plenty of people have tried to reduce it down to one or two factors in order to support their own point of view or agenda, but that's just propaganda. I've found it a pretty interesting market to trade in over the many years I've been (ab)using it. I was referring to the tendency for prices to increase over time. You are right, there are lots of factors influencing PLEX prices. For example, the higher price in game will likely have a positive effect on the RL sales of PLEX. A sale on PLEX in RL will decrease IG prices, etc....so yeah, I kinda did over simplify. Plus:
- The perceived quality of the game impacts demand for PLEX both in-game and out of game, pushing the price both up and down.
- CCP's marketing efforts impact demand for PLEX both in-game and out of game, pushing the price both up and down.
- CCP's PR impacts demand for PLEX both in-game and out of game, pushing the price both up and down.
- The release of skins and other PLEX/Aurum related products push the price up.
- Alliance tournament PLEX buy-ins push the price of PLEX up.
- Fanfest ticket PLEX sales push the price of PLEX up.
- PLEX for good drives push the price of PLEX up.
- Changes in the polices of large alliances can impact price either way.
- The introduction of new skills increase demand for multiple training and push the price up.
- Features that encourage or discourage alts and multiboxing push prices up or down.
- The perceived trajectory of PLEX prices encourages or discourages stockpiling and/or investment, pushing prices either up or down.
- Low margin rapid update station traders discourage the use of casual buy and sell orders, impacting price.
- The actions of speculators push prices in one direction or another.
- The actions of manipulators push prices in one direction or another.
- The RL economy in different regions of the world impacts the affordability of PLEX and subscriptions, impacting price.
- Seasonal factors impact price.
- The public (miss-)understanding of the above factors can push the price up and/or down.
...and more besides. Notice that many of the factors I've listed impact the price both up and down at the same time, making their effect even more complex.
True, but one has to wonder for example how much does the Fanfest effect determine prices now and so forth. As for seasonal factors, my analysis indicates: none.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1204
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 06:39:55 -
[859] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:True, but one has to wonder for example how much does the Fanfest effect determine prices now and so forth. Indeed. One has to wonder about all of these things, because their exact impact is unknown to us.
We cannot pull apart the specific contribution of each of these factors from the whole. All we can see, with any accuracy, is where the traded price is and where it has been, where the traded volume is and where it has been, where the market orders currently are and (for those of us that use more advanced tools than CCP's market browser provides) where they have been.
We can make more or less educated guesses about the impact of each of these factors, but they remain guesses. We cannot reliably confirm the validity of those guesses because even if the price goes where we expect it to, we cannot be sure that it goes there for the reasons we assert.
Teckos Pech wrote:As for seasonal factors, my analysis indicates: none. Since you don't have access to the data required to make a good analysis of seasonal factors, that doesn't really mean much. It does of course indicate that you're happy to post the same guesswork as others in the name of analysis. |
motie one
Secret Passage
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 08:34:02 -
[860] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote: Possibly, the time may have come for the ability to manufacture Plex in game, using in game WIDELY available purchasable NPC commodities.
Okay, I'll be nice here on this one. This will never happen and is stupid beyond belief (trust me this is the nice response). PLEX are a revenue source for CCP. Allowing them to be "made" in game will do absolutely nothing but reduce CCP's revenue.
Lots of information in the previous post, hard to tell to be honest, whether it is an attempt to provide disinformation through obscuration, or genuinely felt. I will assume it is genuine, as I can be nice too.
Lets address just this one post in isolation.
Firstly do you REALLY believe that the customers who wish to grind plex are the same customers who would purchase plex outside of the game to buy isk. They HAVE the isk already and wish to turn it into Pilot services. No one in their right mind would buy plex out of game and exchange it, where they could buy gametime at a far cheaper rate.
Secondly, as I repeatedly tried to explain (but is conviniently ignored) I stated I was not in favour of ANY particular mechanism, I suggest a Balancing mechanism, such as exists for every other item, to allow player actions to influence supply. ie maxallon goes up, miners decide it is worth mining more, price balances, the same mechanisms exist for manufacturing, exploration, missioning, and every other activity and commodity.
No stabilisation is possible by player action of a strategic asset like plex other than letting one's account expire.
I do however find it hard to believe that any player would see this as a positive and desireable situation unless they have a vested interest that is stronger than the desire for a healthy game. |
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1206
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 09:00:26 -
[861] - Quote
motie one wrote:do you REALLY believe that the customers who wish to grind plex are the same customers who would purchase plex outside of the game to buy isk. At different times, they certainly can be.
motie one wrote:No one in their right mind would buy plex out of game and exchange it, where they could buy gametime at a far cheaper rate. There are times and means by which PLEX can be cheaper than direct subscription. Of course I agree that this should not be the case.
motie one wrote:The very definition of someone who Buys Plex to exchange for isk, is that they have insufficient ISK. But insufficient for what? They may have insufficient isk at that point in time for a specific task, but they may not be poor overall. Also the specific task may well be something like buying a Titan, which is beyond the immediate purse of many players but that doesn't make them poor.
motie one wrote:Paying Isk for Plex in game to reexchange for Isk an is equally stupid action. That's certainly not true. I've made a lot of isk buying PLEX with isk and then selling it back for more isk.
motie one wrote:The only End users are those who wish to use it for It's intended purposes. You do like to pick and choose which of the intended purposes of PLEX you will accept as an intended purpose. One of the intended purposes of PLEX is to give players an alternative to illicit RMT, some would say this is it's most important purpose. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1206
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 09:01:17 -
[862] - Quote
motie one wrote:Secondly, as I repeatedly tried to explain (but is conviniently ignored) I stated I was not in favour of ANY particular mechanism, I suggest a Balancing mechanism, such as exists for every other item, to allow player actions to influence supply. ie maxallon goes up, miners decide it is worth mining more, supply increases, price balances, the same mechanisms exist for manufacturing, exploration, missioning, and every other activity and commodity. The same mechanism exist for PLEX too. When PLEX prices go up, people have more reason to sell them, people have more reason to produce them, people have a reason to find alternatives to them, it's the same thing.
motie one wrote:No stabilisation is possible by player action of a strategic asset like plex other than letting one's account expire. Only on the demand side do we have an influence, and only in a way that is self destructive. That's simply not true. Players have control over supply and demand. They also have control over the stockpiles.
motie one wrote:I do however find it hard to believe that any player would see this as a positive and desireable situation unless they have a vested interest that is stronger than the desire for a healthy game. You have a narrow view of what is healthy for the game. It appears to revolve around your own personal agenda which isn't in line with what is healthy for the game. |
motie one
Secret Passage
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 09:08:34 -
[863] - Quote
Bobby, there is NO way for players to produce Plex. There is the issue, and sadly, that is what makes Plex unique.
Buying them for cash, does not produce them. No In game action can provide a balancing action, at best it moves owner.
The only way a player can reduce demand is by not playing.
And yes that is my opinion, and I believe that not playing is not a good action.
Do you disagree? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1206
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 09:24:20 -
[864] - Quote
motie one wrote:Bobby, there is NO way for players to produce Plex. There is the issue, and sadly, that is what makes Plex unique. Yes there is. Just because it serves your agenda to pretend there is not, doesn't make it so.
motie one wrote:Buying them for cash, does not produce them. It does, regardless of your opinion.
motie one wrote:No In game action can provide a balancing action, at best it moves owner. Any balancing action will involve it moving owner. Supply, demand and stockpiles are all controlled by the player.
motie one wrote:The only way a player can reduce demand is by not playing. Not true. They can reduce demand by unsubbing alts, by paying a subscription, by reducing their non-gametime uses of PLEX.
motie one wrote:And yes that is my opinion, and I believe that not playing is not a good action. Some call it winning eve.
|
motie one
Secret Passage
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 11:34:52 -
[865] - Quote
Ok you believe that Plex is a healthy balanced market, with no artificial shortages, and that there is some mechanic, for transferring in game effort into real currency, to enable Plex purchases from CCP or others, to allow them to be brought into game, to provide the required balance.
You may mean purely Buying subscription time from CCP, of course that is a way for players to keep playing but does not provide any plex supply side balance within game.
I do not believe there is a legal method for players to create Plex or create any alternative equivalent product. I would suggest a legal method would be desireable. Otherwise we have a self sustaining feedback loop forever driving prices higher, and the only balancing feedback mechanism is CCP injecting plex manually into the market.
This suits those who have control of stocks and distribution, for historic reasons, So we are always going to disagree. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1206
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 11:52:51 -
[866] - Quote
motie one wrote:Ok you believe that Plex is a healthy balanced market I didn't say the PLEX market is healthy, I said that your view of what is healthy is scewed.
You seem to think that reducing PLEX price to the extent where it ceases to perform some of it's core functions is healthy for the game.
motie one wrote:with no artificial shortages How is it artificial? It's a free market, where every actor in the market is free to do as they wish. There would only be an artificial shortage if CCP was restricting or limiting the number of PLEX that get created, which they are not.
motie one wrote:and that there is some mechanic, for transferring in game effort into real currency, to enable Plex purchases from CCP or others, to allow them to be brought into game, I said nothing of the sort. That mechanic only existed legally during the period that collector's editions were available for purchase via PLEX. You choose to ignore the fact that players can create PLEX whenever they wish to do so, but spending RL currency.
motie one wrote:to provide the required balance. And what balance is this? What method do you advocate for restoring this mystical balance that will not create a greater evil and do more harm than good?
motie one wrote:So we are always going to disagree. Of course we will, while you remain delusional and comitted to your personal agenda beyond all sense and reason. |
motie one
Secret Passage
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 12:12:51 -
[867] - Quote
Well if disagreeing, means the absense of sense and reason, let me ask the following question.
Take any commodity. There are balances within game, for example if mexallon becomes overpriced for demand, then demand drops, people use an alternative in the short term ie buying premade ships rather than manufacturing. The situation only returns to a balanced or healthy state when supply rises to match, People Mine more, salvage more, and then the increased supply means the price drops to create an equilibrium.
Please explain the "IN GAME" balancing mechanisms for Plex. And explain how in their absense any balance can be achieved without CCP injecting Plex to try to provide temporary liquidity.
Without an In Game balance machanism the Product will continously increase in price in the long term at an exponentially increasing rate.
And it will forever cease to be used for Redemption into Pilots services. Is that "healthy"? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1207
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 12:46:34 -
[868] - Quote
motie one wrote:Well if disagreeing, means the absense of sense and reason No, but repeatedly asking for an explanation that has already been given several times in different wording in the good natured effort to break through your delusion is.
motie one wrote:Please explain the "IN GAME" balancing mechanisms for Plex. It's called the free market. Maybe you have heard of it? It allows people to pay more for things when demand outstrips supply, so as to incentivise more production. It allows people to pay less for things when supply exceeds demand, so as to incentivise a reduction. It's very simple and it works really rather well.
motie one wrote:And explain how in their absense any balance can be achieved without CCP injecting Plex to try to provide temporary liquidity. Explain to me this concept of balance that the question is predicated upon?
motie one wrote:Without an In Game balance machanism the Product will continously increase in price in the long term at an exponentially increasing rate. Citation or proof?
motie one wrote:And it will forever cease to be used for Redemption into Pilots services. Citation or proof?
From the perspective of someone outside of your delusional bubble this conversation looks like this:
"Where are the apples? There are no apples!" "What about the ones on that apple tree there?" "Where are the apples? There are no apples!" "Seriously mate, can't you see all the apples on that tree?" "Where are the apples? There are no apples!" "Here, take this apple." "Where are the apples? There are no apples!" "There are plenty of apples, you are quite mad."
Sadly where everyone else sees apples, you only see oranges. It isn't our fault.
|
motie one
Secret Passage
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 13:29:20 -
[869] - Quote
You totally ignored the question.
Answering a different one and calling me silly doesn't count.
The long and short of it is that a free market only functions if there is the ability for the supply side and the demand site to create an equilibrium.
In the absence of one side, we see what we see.
I simply request that such a strategic product has the means within it, to create an equilibrium.
This is not a fixed price, although there are arguments for and against that, it is the equilibrium where there is a market, and the product has customers who are willing to purchase them for use. They could be 100m or 100 Bil, if the inherent value of the commodity justifies that, and the market responds accordingly.
As it is, the inherent value of the product, is currently purely a token for market exchange/speculative storage , and within game are no longer being used in the majority for exchange to pilot's services.
But cut the bits you like out of that and give an answer to points I didn't raise. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
690
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 13:52:36 -
[870] - Quote
motie one wrote:You totally ignored the question.
Hey! That's our line.
Subsidized apple juice for everyone!
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
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Trix Andrard
World Traders Guild Channel
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 14:11:51 -
[871] - Quote
Avoiding the question and calling on the person to answer the idea is somehow understood as a reasonable thing around here it seems.
Determinism seems to be something culturally hardwired for some people.
Carnal rule of gun trade: Never pick up a gun and join the costumers.
Work around spies for a while, and you learn to be careful when it looks like you're getting what you want.
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motie one
Secret Passage
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 14:23:33 -
[872] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:motie one wrote:You totally ignored the question. Hey! That's our line. Subsidized apple juice for everyone! Quote:They could be 100m or 100 Bil, if the inherent value of the commodity justifies that, and the market responds accordingly. The inherent value is 30 days of game time, what's wrong with 1.2b ISK if that's what being paid? Speculating on whether CCP is selling them is silly as we simply don't have the data.
Absolutely nothing is wrong If players feel that is a price that gives value when redeeming for pilots services.
If however it is Just being exchanged as a Token, to score market games, and It is no longer being used in the main as a means of pilots extending their game time or other pilots services, then that raises serious questions, that some wish us not to ask. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1209
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 15:15:11 -
[873] - Quote
motie one wrote:You totally ignored the question. I didn't. I answered it directly. You just ignored the answer.
I've answered it several times and each time you ignored or dismissed the answer.
How many times can I answer the same question, taking different approaches each time?
motie one wrote:The long and short of it is that a free market only functions if there is the ability for the supply side and the demand site to create an equilibrium. Which is what we have and the price is the price.
Why exactly do you think that the current method of producing PLEX is to be ignored? You have exactly what you asked for, I've pointed at it repeatedly, but you choose to ignore and dismiss it. I can't really help you with that. The apples are there, whether you choose to see them or not.
motie one wrote:As it is, the inherent value of the product, is currently purely a token for market exchange/speculative storage , and within game are no longer being used in the majority for exchange to pilot's services. Citation or proof?
You continue to say these things, but you have nothing at all to back it up. Even when CCP state publicly that everything is fine and the sub/PLEX balance is within acceptable limits, you just don't accept it.
motie one wrote:It seems that you think I am mistaken in believing that plex has such a role? I believe PLEX has several roles. Everyone but you, it seems, believes this. It's understandable why, since CCP has said as much and CCP has continued to add new purposes to PLEX.
motie one wrote:But cut the bits you like out of that and give an answer to points I didn't raise. Given how many posts I've made in response to yours and how many of your points I have dealt with, I don't see you have any kind of argument there. You are just banging on with the same old line which has no justification whatsoever.
Anyway, this discussion ceased to fun or helpful to anyone. As I said initially, I engaged you in conversation on this subject against my better judgement. You are clearly not going to make any progress and it's no skin off my nose if you continue to be delusional and frustrated. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3429
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 15:20:13 -
[874] - Quote
motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote: Possibly, the time may have come for the ability to manufacture Plex in game, using in game WIDELY available purchasable NPC commodities.
Okay, I'll be nice here on this one. This will never happen and is stupid beyond belief (trust me this is the nice response). PLEX are a revenue source for CCP. Allowing them to be "made" in game will do absolutely nothing but reduce CCP's revenue. Lots of information in the previous post, hard to tell to be honest, whether it is an attempt to provide disinformation through obscuration, or genuinely felt. I will assume it is genuine, as I can be nice too. Lets address just this one post in isolation. Firstly do you REALLY believe that the customers who wish to grind plex are the same customers who would purchase plex outside of the game to buy isk. They HAVE the isk already and wish to turn it into Pilot services. No one in their right mind would buy plex out of game and exchange it, where they could buy gametime at a far cheaper rate. The very definition of someone who Buys Plex to exchange for isk, is that they have insufficient ISK. They Need isk and Are the ones who sell them for ISK. Grinding ISk to buy (or make) Plex in game to reexchange for Isk Is stupid action, and is not going to happen. There is No benefit to a player. Therefore They are not Buying Plex in real life cash, THEY are not a loss or going to be, to CCP sales of Plex. The ability to turn player effort and isk into Plex, by building them, Is going to have no effect on the income to CCP, other than the price of plex will have greater stability. CCP will determine the inputs/materials. Price going forward would be set by supply and demand and whether it is less effort/value to make or buy the finished form. The only End users are those who wish to use it for It's intended purposes. Those purposes sterilise the product, removing them from the game, and sterilising their inputs. ie permenantly Removed from the economy. It does not automatically mean cheaper prices. But it does mean balanced. Secondly, as I repeatedly tried to explain (but is conviniently ignored) I stated I was not in favour of ANY particular mechanism, I suggest a Balancing mechanism, such as exists for every other item, to allow player actions to influence supply. ie maxallon goes up, miners decide it is worth mining more, supply increases, price balances, the same mechanisms exist for manufacturing, exploration, missioning, and every other activity and commodity. No stabilisation is possible by player action of a strategic asset like plex other than letting one's account expire. Only on the demand side do we have an influence, and only in a way that is self destructive. I do however find it hard to believe that any player would see this as a positive and desireable situation unless they have a vested interest that is stronger than the desire for a healthy game. Of course in the interests of being nice, I could imagine one becomes so distracted by the pretty graphs, one might seek enlightenment in them, Leading to them not seeing the underlying structure and reality of the situation. Note when there is the smell of sulphur in the air, and the ground rumbles underfoot, looking for auguries in chicken entrails, whilst making one look like an oracle, and wise, does not really ensure survival.
Why do you write these long meandering posts that really don't say much of anything. That first paragraph is a horrible mess. You seem to be contradicting yourself. You write this, "No one in their right mind would buy plex out of game and exchange it, where they could buy gametime at a far cheaper rate." then you write this, "The very definition of someone who Buys Plex to exchange for isk, is that they have insufficient ISK. They Need isk and Are the ones who sell them for ISK."
Here is the deal, some people like to play Eve. Some of those people do not want to or do not have the time to grind for ISK. So buying a PLEX and selling it in game is a good thing for them and for the person buying the PLEX. It is also good for CCP as they make some extra money. It boils down to this, for $20 a player can become an Eve billionaire. Seed money to start trading or invention...or whatever. Or they could drop it on ships for PvP and skip the grinding for ISK.
And making PLEX in game will side step the current fact that right now to get a PLEX somebody had to initially give CCP $20. It is a bad, bad, bad idea.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3429
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 15:34:25 -
[875] - Quote
motie one wrote:Ok you believe that Plex is a healthy balanced market, with no artificial shortages, and that there is some mechanic, for transferring in game effort into real currency, to enable Plex purchases from CCP or others, to allow them to be brought into game, to provide the required balance.
You may mean purely Buying subscription time from CCP, of course that is a way for players to keep playing but does not provide any plex supply side balance within game.
I do not believe there is a legal method for players to create Plex or create any alternative equivalent product. I would suggest a legal method would be desireable. Otherwise we have a self sustaining feedback loop forever driving prices higher, and the only balancing feedback mechanism is CCP injecting plex manually into the market.
This suits those who have control of stocks and distribution, for historic reasons, So we are always going to disagree.
How can there be an artificial shortage? If somebody buys something and holds it thinking it will gain in value down the road, that is not creating an artificial shortage...that is how market speculation works. And market speculation is a good thing because it can help send out the right price signals.
For example, some speculators might think for :reasons: that the price of gasoline is going to go up. So they buy some and are going to hold it and sell it if the price does go up. By doing that they could very well cause the price to go up. Especially if they buy enough and other market participants notice and jump in too. So now the price is higher sending a signal to producers: make more.
That is what a high price does, it sends a signal: we need more resources allocated to the production of this good. This is why in a supply and demand graph if the demand curve shifts outwards, "we move up" the supply curve. The supply curve is basically the sum of each firms marginal cost curve...and as the price goes up that means that marginal cost is below the marginal benefit (the price) so firms should make more of the good.
Market speculation is not a bad thing. Feel free to think otherwise, but it is foolish view based on flawed thinking.
Quote:Economic activities that generate output and employment for many hinge critically on how these prices behave. A farmer's motivation to cultivate wheat or choose rice over wheat depends on the price he gets when he takes the produce to the market. A car manufacturer's profit depends on what happens to steel prices; an IT company's profits can be hugely impacted with a change in exchange rates; and the balance sheets of central banks are affected by changing prices of the large gold reserves they hold.
The risk to economic activity from unknown future prices is largely mitigated by speculative activity. Prices do not remain constant because the underlying factors that affect them change with time. A poor monsoon alters the price of agricultural produce and a weakening global economy impacts the price of gold. Speculators play the critical role of bringing changing information into the price. Speculative markets are actually markets for information.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
motie one
Secret Passage
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 15:35:42 -
[876] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote: Possibly, the time may have come for the ability to manufacture Plex in game, using in game WIDELY available purchasable NPC commodities.
Okay, I'll be nice here on this one. This will never happen and is stupid beyond belief (trust me this is the nice response). PLEX are a revenue source for CCP. Allowing them to be "made" in game will do absolutely nothing but reduce CCP's revenue. Lots of information in the previous post, hard to tell to be honest, whether it is an attempt to provide disinformation through obscuration, or genuinely felt. I will assume it is genuine, as I can be nice too. Lets address just this one post in isolation. Firstly do you REALLY believe that the customers who wish to grind plex are the same customers who would purchase plex outside of the game to buy isk. They HAVE the isk already and wish to turn it into Pilot services. No one in their right mind would buy plex out of game and exchange it, where they could buy gametime at a far cheaper rate. The very definition of someone who Buys Plex to exchange for isk, is that they have insufficient ISK. They Need isk and Are the ones who sell them for ISK. Grinding ISk to buy (or make) Plex in game to reexchange for Isk Is stupid action, and is not going to happen. There is No benefit to a player. Therefore They are not Buying Plex in real life cash, THEY are not a loss or going to be, to CCP sales of Plex. The ability to turn player effort and isk into Plex, by building them, Is going to have no effect on the income to CCP, other than the price of plex will have greater stability. CCP will determine the inputs/materials. Price going forward would be set by supply and demand and whether it is less effort/value to make or buy the finished form. The only End users are those who wish to use it for It's intended purposes. Those purposes sterilise the product, removing them from the game, and sterilising their inputs. ie permenantly Removed from the economy. It does not automatically mean cheaper prices. But it does mean balanced. Secondly, as I repeatedly tried to explain (but is conviniently ignored) I stated I was not in favour of ANY particular mechanism, I suggest a Balancing mechanism, such as exists for every other item, to allow player actions to influence supply. ie maxallon goes up, miners decide it is worth mining more, supply increases, price balances, the same mechanisms exist for manufacturing, exploration, missioning, and every other activity and commodity. No stabilisation is possible by player action of a strategic asset like plex other than letting one's account expire. Only on the demand side do we have an influence, and only in a way that is self destructive. I do however find it hard to believe that any player would see this as a positive and desireable situation unless they have a vested interest that is stronger than the desire for a healthy game. Of course in the interests of being nice, I could imagine one becomes so distracted by the pretty graphs, one might seek enlightenment in them, Leading to them not seeing the underlying structure and reality of the situation. Note when there is the smell of sulphur in the air, and the ground rumbles underfoot, looking for auguries in chicken entrails, whilst making one look like an oracle, and wise, does not really ensure survival. Why do you write these long meandering posts that really don't say much of anything. That first paragraph is a horrible mess. You seem to be contradicting yourself. You write this, "No one in their right mind would buy plex out of game and exchange it, where they could buy gametime at a far cheaper rate." then you write this, "The very definition of someone who Buys Plex to exchange for isk, is that they have insufficient ISK. They Need isk and Are the ones who sell them for ISK." Here is the deal, some people like to play Eve. Some of those people do not want to or do not have the time to grind for ISK. So buying a PLEX and selling it in game is a good thing for them and for the person buying the PLEX. It is also good for CCP as they make some extra money. It boils down to this, for $20 a player can become an Eve billionaire. Seed money to start trading or invention...or whatever. Or they could drop it on ships for PvP and skip the grinding for ISK. And making PLEX in game will side step the current fact that right now to get a PLEX somebody had to initially give CCP $20. It is a bad, bad, bad idea.
Try reading the "meandering" post again and you might not miss the entire point.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3432
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Posted - 2015.10.01 15:58:07 -
[877] - Quote
motie one wrote:
Try reading the "meandering" post again and you might not miss the entire point.
I did and unfortunately its a mish-mash of gibberish and nonsense. For example:
Quote:Secondly, as I repeatedly tried to explain (but is conviniently ignored) I stated I was not in favour of ANY particular mechanism, I suggest a Balancing mechanism, such as exists for every other item, to allow player actions to influence supply.
This mechanism exists. You get out your credit card and buy some PLEX and then put them on the market thereby increasing the supply.
Thing is you don't want to put your money where you mouth is. You want to have subsidized game time which just isn't going to happen.
Then there is this gem of stellar nonsense.
Quote:No stabilisation is possible by player action of a strategic asset like plex other than letting one's account expire. Only on the demand side do we have an influence, and only in a way that is self destructive.
Self destructive? What you should have written is "destructive".
And second how is it destructive? That you can't pay for your account by basically grinding ISK for someone else? That you have been priced out of the market? Well pay via cash, buy an entire year and spend what $12.50/month that way.
Also, high ISK prices for PLEX greatly reduce RMT for ISK. Why spend your money on RMT ISK that will come with a high probability you'll be banned and have your wallet drained of that RMT ISK when you can get the same thing totally legally?
Quote:I do however find it hard to believe that any player would see this as a positive and desireable situation unless they have a vested interest that is stronger than the desire for a healthy game.
Nice example of poisoning the well. You are basically saying anyone who disagrees with you must be one of the people trying to screw over other players. That's bullcrap and you know it...it is also intellectually lazy and dishonest.
Your posts are just horrible amalgams of bad reasoning, contradictory statements, and flawed logic that attacks everyone who disagrees with you.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3432
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Posted - 2015.10.01 16:18:29 -
[878] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Quote:They could be 100m or 100 Bil, if the inherent value of the commodity justifies that, and the market responds accordingly. The inherent value is 30 days of game time, what's wrong with 1.2b ISK if that's what being paid? Speculating on whether CCP is selling them is silly as we simply don't have the data.
This right here. This is the difference between nominal and real values. The inherent value of a PLEX, i.e. its real value, is 30 days of game time. Its nominal value is determined by things like income/wealth in addition to number on the market, etc.* With lots of ISK flowing into the game every single day, people are seeing their in game wealth go up and through competition for the limited number of PLEX on the market are driving the price up.
*See Bad Bobby's post for a list of various factors that can effect the price of PLEX.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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motie one
Secret Passage
41
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Posted - 2015.10.01 16:40:55 -
[879] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote:Quote:They could be 100m or 100 Bil, if the inherent value of the commodity justifies that, and the market responds accordingly. The inherent value is 30 days of game time, what's wrong with 1.2b ISK if that's what being paid? Speculating on whether CCP is selling them is silly as we simply don't have the data. This right here. This is the difference between nominal and real values. The inherent value of a PLEX, i.e. its real value, is 30 days of game time. Its nominal value is determined by things like income/wealth in addition to number on the market, etc.* With lots of ISK flowing into the game every single day, people are seeing their in game wealth go up and through competition for the limited number of PLEX on the market are driving the price up. *See Bad Bobby's post for a list of various factors that can effect the price of PLEX.
Assuming the person you are discussing issues with is mentally deficient, and ignoring the points that are being raised, is hardly helpful. You do not need to keep harping on the basics.. I know....
What I am seeing is an example of someone skimming through a document, picking on one or two obvious points and taking them out of context without reading the whole thing, and Saying I do not like your conclusions, I have not read it, but you are bad and your conclusions are bad.
I know the market is going up I know all the reasons why it is, you can even see them in my posts.
What I do not see is a mechanism that counters the feedback that is in place, unlike Every other commodity in the market. And " Just spend money you tight fisted poor" is not a mechanism to control self reinforcing feedback!
Understand yet? Try reading, understanding, and not from a viewpoint of everything is great, he must be wrong. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3435
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 17:10:18 -
[880] - Quote
motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote:Quote:They could be 100m or 100 Bil, if the inherent value of the commodity justifies that, and the market responds accordingly. The inherent value is 30 days of game time, what's wrong with 1.2b ISK if that's what being paid? Speculating on whether CCP is selling them is silly as we simply don't have the data. This right here. This is the difference between nominal and real values. The inherent value of a PLEX, i.e. its real value, is 30 days of game time. Its nominal value is determined by things like income/wealth in addition to number on the market, etc.* With lots of ISK flowing into the game every single day, people are seeing their in game wealth go up and through competition for the limited number of PLEX on the market are driving the price up. *See Bad Bobby's post for a list of various factors that can effect the price of PLEX. Assuming the person you are discussing issues with is mentally deficient, and ignoring the points that are being raised, is hardly helpful. You do not need to keep harping on the basics.. I know.... What I am seeing is an example of someone skimming through a document, picking on one or two obvious points and taking them out of context without reading the whole thing, and Saying I do not like your conclusions, I have not read it, but you are bad and your conclusions are bad. I know the market is going up I know all the reasons why it is, you can even see them in my posts. What I do not see is a mechanism that counters the feedback that is in place, unlike Every other commodity in the market. And " Just spend money you tight fisted poor" is not a mechanism to control self reinforcing feedback! Understand yet? Try reading, understanding, and not from a viewpoint of everything is great, he must be wrong.
Really, that is just it, you don't seem to know the basics. Your basic position seems to be: I don't like high PLEX prices, therefore high PLEX prices are bad.
Lets try it this way....
Suppose country A and Country B have an exchange rate as follows
ABuck = BBuck.
That is a 1-1 exchange rate. Then country A increases its money supply and in fact, doubles it. Now how many ABucks would it take to buy a BBuck?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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motie one
Secret Passage
41
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Posted - 2015.10.01 18:06:14 -
[881] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote:Quote:They could be 100m or 100 Bil, if the inherent value of the commodity justifies that, and the market responds accordingly. The inherent value is 30 days of game time, what's wrong with 1.2b ISK if that's what being paid? Speculating on whether CCP is selling them is silly as we simply don't have the data. This right here. This is the difference between nominal and real values. The inherent value of a PLEX, i.e. its real value, is 30 days of game time. Its nominal value is determined by things like income/wealth in addition to number on the market, etc.* With lots of ISK flowing into the game every single day, people are seeing their in game wealth go up and through competition for the limited number of PLEX on the market are driving the price up. *See Bad Bobby's post for a list of various factors that can effect the price of PLEX. Assuming the person you are discussing issues with is mentally deficient, and ignoring the points that are being raised, is hardly helpful. You do not need to keep harping on the basics.. I know.... What I am seeing is an example of someone skimming through a document, picking on one or two obvious points and taking them out of context without reading the whole thing, and Saying I do not like your conclusions, I have not read it, but you are bad and your conclusions are bad. I know the market is going up I know all the reasons why it is, you can even see them in my posts. What I do not see is a mechanism that counters the feedback that is in place, unlike Every other commodity in the market. And " Just spend money you tight fisted poor" is not a mechanism to control self reinforcing feedback! Understand yet? Try reading, understanding, and not from a viewpoint of everything is great, he must be wrong. Really, that is just it, you don't seem to know the basics. Your basic position seems to be: I don't like high PLEX prices, therefore high PLEX prices are bad. Lets try it this way.... Suppose country A and Country B have an exchange rate as follows ABuck = BBuck. That is a 1-1 exchange rate. Then country A increases its money supply and in fact, doubles it. Now how many ABucks would it take to buy a BBuck?
Dear God! Looks like talking to you is like discussing nuclear power with a Green. Frustrating for me and just confusing and stressful for you.
If you paid attention my point is not that the price of plex is too high. You will need to read my posts to see what my point is. I know preconceptions are just so much easier. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3435
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 18:09:06 -
[882] - Quote
So you don't know.
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motie one
Secret Passage
41
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Posted - 2015.10.01 18:18:49 -
[883] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:So you don't know.
Do you want n economics education? Or is it you think there is a simple answer to that question, the answer if you insist is it depends on when you look at it.
I could post 50 pages of text in a more detailed reply, but you probably want it in two words.
Middle length answer. Economic turmoil, until homeostasis is achieved. Because mechanisms do exist to make that achieveable, unlike a certain product we were meant to be discussing. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3435
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Posted - 2015.10.01 18:41:32 -
[884] - Quote
motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:So you don't know. Do you want n economics education? Or is it you think there is a simple answer to that question, the answer if you insist is it depends on when you look at it. I could post 50 pages of text in a more detailed reply, but you probably want it in two words.(and besides you are not paying consultancy fees) Middle length answer. Economic turmoil, until homeostasis is achieved. Because mechanisms do exist to make that achieveable, unlike a certain product we were meant to be discussing.
No, it is a very, very simple economic model. Simple models can sometimes be good in that they let you isolate certain economic phenomena. In statistics they use something similar as well, they will control for the variables they are not currently interested in. For example, if I want to see if there is a trend in seasonal data and its magnitude I'll control for the seasonality using dummy variables, or maybe a sine function, or even seasonal differencing.
In this case, I was hoping you'd see that the answer is 2. That the increase in the money supply has also influenced the exchange rate. Now that is not the only thing influencing exchange rates, but it is a factor.
So...why is the (implicit) exchange rate worsening with regards to ISK. How come a dollar allows people to buy larger and larger amounts of ISK?
Could it be the ISK entering into the in game economy? Could that be one reason there is an overall trend to the price of PLEX, the mechanism of translating RL money into ISK?
If the answer is yes, trying to screw over CCP from PLEX sales and stabilize the exchange that way is just foolishness on top of vanilla ignorance.
A better solution would be to reconsider something like NS income sources for the typical pilot. Having ISK magically appear in people's wallets for shooting NPC rats probably isn't the best thing. One suggestion is to allow for NS missions, maybe from Concord or something and ramp down rat bounties and grant LP which is and ISK sink.
No, this is not the only thing influence PLEX prices, but it could be one of them. Another thing is that CCP wants to sell more of them. They are a profit maximizing entity and PLEX sales are probably the most profitable item they sell on a per item basis. The suggestion that the players compete with CCP in terms of PLEX sales.... Just. Not. Going. To. Work. CCP is not going to cut its revenue stream and profits. They are not here to subsidize your game time. In fact, it works exactly the other way around. You subsidize CCP either directly via paying your subscription or indirectly by buying a PLEX for ISK that somebody else paid CCP for...and CCP keeps the game up and running. Turning that on its head simply will not work. Ever.
So...suffice it to say, I am not going to ever come to you to learn economics. You have completely turned things on their head and say, "There that will work," when in reality it simply wont. You are bad at making logical arguments, you are bad at economics, and as a result of those two bad things your ideas about PLEX are bad. Really bad.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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motie one
Secret Passage
41
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Posted - 2015.10.01 18:47:49 -
[885] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:So you don't know. Do you want n economics education? Or is it you think there is a simple answer to that question, the answer if you insist is it depends on when you look at it. I could post 50 pages of text in a more detailed reply, but you probably want it in two words.(and besides you are not paying consultancy fees) Middle length answer. Economic turmoil, until homeostasis is achieved. Because mechanisms do exist to make that achieveable, unlike a certain product we were meant to be discussing. No, it is a very, very simple economic model. Simple models can sometimes be good in that they let you isolate certain economic phenomena. In statistics they use something similar as well, they will control for the variables they are not currently interested in. For example, if I want to see if there is a trend in seasonal data and its magnitude I'll control for the seasonality using dummy variables, or maybe a sine function, or even seasonal differencing. In this case, I was hoping you'd see that the answer is 2. That the increase in the money supply has also influenced the exchange rate. Now that is not the only thing influencing exchange rates, but it is a factor. So...why is the (implicit) exchange rate worsening with regards to ISK. How come a dollar allows people to buy larger and larger amounts of ISK? Could it be the ISK entering into the in game economy? Could that be one reason there is an overall trend to the price of PLEX, the mechanism of translating RL money into ISK? If the answer is yes, trying to screw over CCP from PLEX sales and stabilize the exchange that way is just foolishness on top of vanilla ignorance. A better solution would be to reconsider something like NS income sources for the typical pilot. Having ISK magically appear in people's wallets for shooting NPC rats probably isn't the best thing. One suggestion is to allow for NS missions, maybe from Concord or something and ramp down rat bounties and grant LP which is and ISK sink. No, this is not the only thing influence PLEX prices, but it could be one of them. Another thing is that CCP wants to sell more of them. They are a profit maximizing entity and PLEX sales are probably the most profitable item they sell on a per item basis. The suggestion that the players compete with CCP in terms of PLEX sales.... Just. Not. Going. To. Work. CCP is not going to cut its revenue stream and profits. They are not here to subsidize your game time. In fact, it works exactly the other way around. You subsidize CCP either directly via paying your subscription or indirectly by buying a PLEX for ISK that somebody else paid CCP for...and CCP keeps the game up and running. Turning that on its head simply will not work. Ever. So...suffice it to say, I am not going to ever come to you to learn economics. You have completely turned things on their head and say, "There that will work," when in reality it simply wont. You are bad at making logical arguments, you are bad at economics, and as a result of those two bad things your ideas about PLEX are bad. Really bad.
Quote:I really, really, really hope you are not so incredibly detached from reality to believe this would result in a direct relationship to the exchange rate?
So you did believe that! Incredible!
That is why the simplistic arguments of the Pub, are never going to gain someone a job in anything that impacts the countries Economics. (God save us from political appointees.)
Pop quiz why has QE not destroyed the US dollar value.
Answers on a postcard to. I cannot believe it's not Economics, Address not found. Lala land. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3435
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 19:03:33 -
[886] - Quote
motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:So you don't know. Do you want n economics education? Or is it you think there is a simple answer to that question, the answer if you insist is it depends on when you look at it. I could post 50 pages of text in a more detailed reply, but you probably want it in two words.(and besides you are not paying consultancy fees) Middle length answer. Economic turmoil, until homeostasis is achieved. Because mechanisms do exist to make that achieveable, unlike a certain product we were meant to be discussing. I really, really, really hope you are not so incredibly detached from reality to believe this would result in a direct relationship to the exchange rate?
Oh, and homeostasis is typically not used in economics. In economics the concept used is equilibrium.
Homeostasis, by contrast, refers usually to biological entities and how certain biological processes are kept relatively constant such as body temperature.
The difference is that in economics equilibrium is not constant. For example, using a simple supply and demand model, we could right the system down as,
S = s(P) D = d(P,M)
Where P is the price and M is money.
Equilibrium occurs when S = D. However, if we change M we would have a new equilibrium point. In homeostasis you'd have a system that wants to return to its constant state...e.g. body temperature.
Some economists have used the term, e.g. Kenneth Boulding, but that is somewhat of a heterodox view.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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motie one
Secret Passage
41
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Posted - 2015.10.01 19:09:37 -
[887] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:So you don't know. Do you want n economics education? Or is it you think there is a simple answer to that question, the answer if you insist is it depends on when you look at it. I could post 50 pages of text in a more detailed reply, but you probably want it in two words.(and besides you are not paying consultancy fees) Middle length answer. Economic turmoil, until homeostasis is achieved. Because mechanisms do exist to make that achieveable, unlike a certain product we were meant to be discussing. I really, really, really hope you are not so incredibly detached from reality to believe this would result in a direct relationship to the exchange rate? Oh, and homeostasis is typically not used in economics. In economics the concept used is equilibrium. Homeostasis, by contrast, refers usually to biological entities and how certain biological processes are kept relatively constant such as body temperature. The difference is that in economics equilibrium is not constant. For example, using a simple supply and demand model, we could right the system down as, S = s(P) D = d(P,M) Where P is the price and M is money. Equilibrium occurs when S = D. However, if we change M we would have a new equilibrium point. In homeostasis you'd have a system that wants to return to its constant state...e.g. body temperature. Some economists have used the term, e.g. Kenneth Boulding, but that is somewhat of a heterodox view.
Possibly you might wish to read the next page, It is a phrase often and commonly used in the real world economic community possibly not the one you are currently in. And yes, that is exactly how it is used. Strategic economic commodities and reserve currencies returning to a steady state.
Which is why I used it to eliminate attempts at deliberate confusion. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3435
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 19:28:52 -
[888] - Quote
motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:So you don't know. Do you want n economics education? Or is it you think there is a simple answer to that question, the answer if you insist is it depends on when you look at it. I could post 50 pages of text in a more detailed reply, but you probably want it in two words.(and besides you are not paying consultancy fees) Middle length answer. Economic turmoil, until homeostasis is achieved. Because mechanisms do exist to make that achieveable, unlike a certain product we were meant to be discussing. No, it is a very, very simple economic model. Simple models can sometimes be good in that they let you isolate certain economic phenomena. In statistics they use something similar as well, they will control for the variables they are not currently interested in. For example, if I want to see if there is a trend in seasonal data and its magnitude I'll control for the seasonality using dummy variables, or maybe a sine function, or even seasonal differencing. In this case, I was hoping you'd see that the answer is 2. That the increase in the money supply has also influenced the exchange rate. Now that is not the only thing influencing exchange rates, but it is a factor. So...why is the (implicit) exchange rate worsening with regards to ISK. How come a dollar allows people to buy larger and larger amounts of ISK? Could it be the ISK entering into the in game economy? Could that be one reason there is an overall trend to the price of PLEX, the mechanism of translating RL money into ISK? If the answer is yes, trying to screw over CCP from PLEX sales and stabilize the exchange that way is just foolishness on top of vanilla ignorance. A better solution would be to reconsider something like NS income sources for the typical pilot. Having ISK magically appear in people's wallets for shooting NPC rats probably isn't the best thing. One suggestion is to allow for NS missions, maybe from Concord or something and ramp down rat bounties and grant LP which is and ISK sink. No, this is not the only thing influence PLEX prices, but it could be one of them. Another thing is that CCP wants to sell more of them. They are a profit maximizing entity and PLEX sales are probably the most profitable item they sell on a per item basis. The suggestion that the players compete with CCP in terms of PLEX sales.... Just. Not. Going. To. Work. CCP is not going to cut its revenue stream and profits. They are not here to subsidize your game time. In fact, it works exactly the other way around. You subsidize CCP either directly via paying your subscription or indirectly by buying a PLEX for ISK that somebody else paid CCP for...and CCP keeps the game up and running. Turning that on its head simply will not work. Ever. So...suffice it to say, I am not going to ever come to you to learn economics. You have completely turned things on their head and say, "There that will work," when in reality it simply wont. You are bad at making logical arguments, you are bad at economics, and as a result of those two bad things your ideas about PLEX are bad. Really bad. Quote:I really, really, really hope you are not so incredibly detached from reality to believe this would result in a direct relationship to the exchange rate? So you did believe that! Incredible! That is why the simplistic arguments of the Pub, are never going to gain someone a job in anything that impacts the countries Economics. (God save us from political appointees.) Pop quiz why has QE not destroyed the US dollar value. Answers on a postcard to. I cannot believe it's not Economics, Address not found. Lala land.
You have it backwards. There is indeed an implicit exchange rate, you can deny it, but its pretty obvious that a PLEX, which costs $19.95 in the US will buy about 1.2 billion ISK. Or about 60.150 million ISK/dollar. v0v
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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motie one
Secret Passage
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 19:35:50 -
[889] - Quote
Just let it drop, you are starting to look really foolish now. I am tired of even trying to get you to see beyond banalaties |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3435
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 19:46:46 -
[890] - Quote
motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:So you don't know. Do you want n economics education? Or is it you think there is a simple answer to that question, the answer if you insist is it depends on when you look at it. I could post 50 pages of text in a more detailed reply, but you probably want it in two words.(and besides you are not paying consultancy fees) Middle length answer. Economic turmoil, until homeostasis is achieved. Because mechanisms do exist to make that achieveable, unlike a certain product we were meant to be discussing. I really, really, really hope you are not so incredibly detached from reality to believe this would result in a direct relationship to the exchange rate? Oh, and homeostasis is typically not used in economics. In economics the concept used is equilibrium. Homeostasis, by contrast, refers usually to biological entities and how certain biological processes are kept relatively constant such as body temperature. The difference is that in economics equilibrium is not constant. For example, using a simple supply and demand model, we could right the system down as, S = s(P) D = d(P,M) Where P is the price and M is money. Equilibrium occurs when S = D. However, if we change M we would have a new equilibrium point. In homeostasis you'd have a system that wants to return to its constant state...e.g. body temperature. Some economists have used the term, e.g. Kenneth Boulding, but that is somewhat of a heterodox view. Possibly you might wish to read the next page, It is a phrase often and commonly used in the real world economic community possibly not the one you are currently in. And yes, that is exactly how it is used. Strategic economic commodities and reserve currencies returning to a steady state. Which is why I used it to eliminate attempts at deliberate confusion.
No it isn't. It is used in "happiness" economics. The idea here is that departing from a current equilibrium often reduces a person's happiness as it entails a level of uncertainty and people tend not to like uncertainty.
For example, this working paper.
Abstract:
Quote:The paper suggests that maintenance of a homeostatic equilibrium provides a rationale for many actions of economic agents. Homeostatic equilibrium has physical, economic, emotional, psychological and environmental dimensions. The characteristics of this equilibrium include feelings of safety, trust, connectedness with friends, family and community, and a predictable and welcoming social and work environment. Individuals generally make decisions that help them move toward and achieve this state of equilibrium. Departure from homeostasis reduces well being and stimulates agents to take actions that will return them to a state of homeostasis. This hypothesis is tested with probit analysis using sample responses from the four waves of the World Values Surveys conducted between 1980 and 2002. Results generally support the homeostasis hypothesis. Variables that reflect departure from homeostasis such as divorce and poor health are highly significant, pointing to a reduction in well being. Variables that reflect the importance of friends, family, a trusting social and work environment have significant impacts to raise well being.
I see nothing regarding "strategic economic commodities" or reserve currencies.
Looks like it is along the lines of cognitive and behavioral economics in the tradition of Kahneman and Tversky. I tend to agree with David Lavine that behavioral economics is not as impressive as it first appears.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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|
|
motie one
Secret Passage
41
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Posted - 2015.10.01 19:51:11 -
[891] - Quote
Not even going to go there, enjoy your research, however irrelevant. Google is neither an education or an apprenticeship. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3435
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Posted - 2015.10.01 19:54:51 -
[892] - Quote
motie one wrote:Not even going to go there, enjoy your research, however irrelevant. Google is neither an education or an apprenticeship.
I wasn't using google, I was using IDEAS it is a search engine for economic papers and journal articles.
https://ideas.repec.org/
Quote:Welcome to the largest bibliographic database dedicated to Economics and available freely on the Internet. Over 1,800,000 items of research can be browsed or searched, and over 1,700,000 can be downloaded in full text!
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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motie one
Secret Passage
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 20:00:42 -
[893] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote:Not even going to go there, enjoy your research, however irrelevant. Google is neither an education or an apprenticeship. I wasn't using google, I was using IDEAS it is a search engine for economic papers and journal articles. https://ideas.repec.org/ Quote:Welcome to the largest bibliographic database dedicated to Economics and available freely on the Internet. Over 1,800,000 items of research can be browsed or searched, and over 1,700,000 can be downloaded in full text!
Quoting the freely available (and free) academic community, hardly reflects the economic community. possibly you should access professional research and papers? But carry on, you are not trying to convince me. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3435
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 20:11:15 -
[894] - Quote
motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote:Not even going to go there, enjoy your research, however irrelevant. Google is neither an education or an apprenticeship. I wasn't using google, I was using IDEAS it is a search engine for economic papers and journal articles. https://ideas.repec.org/ Quote:Welcome to the largest bibliographic database dedicated to Economics and available freely on the Internet. Over 1,800,000 items of research can be browsed or searched, and over 1,700,000 can be downloaded in full text! Quoting the freely available (and free) academic community, hardly reflects the economic community. possibly you should access professional research and papers? But carry on, you are not trying to convince me.
No, the truth is I've been studying economics for almost 30 years, both formally and after leaving graduate school. I even work at a job where there lots of focus on things like marginal cost. So when you referenced homeostasis I went to the biggest economics database I know of to see what type of research in economics uses that term. It is not used for "strategic commodities" or the reserve currency (hint, there is one reserve currency right now). And currencies do not exhibit homeostasis. That is exchange rates are not constant.
Note I provide citations to actual papers and people...you just spout nonsense and display our ignorance in a stunning manner.
I've pointed out that CCP subsidizing your game time is stupid and will never happen. So, go ahead...have the last word.
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motie one
Secret Passage
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 20:15:52 -
[895] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote:Not even going to go there, enjoy your research, however irrelevant. Google is neither an education or an apprenticeship. I wasn't using google, I was using IDEAS it is a search engine for economic papers and journal articles. https://ideas.repec.org/ Quote:Welcome to the largest bibliographic database dedicated to Economics and available freely on the Internet. Over 1,800,000 items of research can be browsed or searched, and over 1,700,000 can be downloaded in full text! Quoting the freely available (and free) academic community, hardly reflects the economic community. possibly you should access professional research and papers? But carry on, you are not trying to convince me. No, the truth is I've been studying economics for almost 30 years, both formally and after leaving graduate school. I even work at a job where there lots of focus on things like marginal cost. So when you referenced homeostasis I went to the biggest economics database I know of to see what type of research in economics uses that term. It is not used for "strategic commodities" or the reserve currency (hint, there is one reserve currency right now). And currencies do not exhibit homeostasis. That is exchange rates are not constant. Note I provide citations to actual papers and people...you just spout nonsense and display our ignorance in a stunning manner. I've pointed out that CCP subsidizing your game time is stupid and will never happen. So, go ahead...have the last word.
Carry on, possibly you should speak to people who know the way real world economies work. And for your interest, The USD is only one of a number of reserve currencies, plenty of my friends in London Including some that work in the Bank of England, would take exception to the idea that Sterling is not a reserve currency, and a few Friends in frankfurt might disagree too. |
voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
392
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 20:47:37 -
[896] - Quote
Without wishing to get to get involved with your bunfight with Motie I would just like to point out that homeostasis is not a term referred to by Kahnemann in Thinking, Fast and Slow (his extended commentary on the Kahnemann and Tversky work that includes their seminal papers as appendices) nor is it referred to by Taleb (who is heavily influenced by Kahnemann and Tversky) in The Black Swan, or Fooled By Randomness, or Antifragility. Nor by Nate Silver in The Signal and the Noise (another that was influenced by Kahnemann and Tversky). |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3435
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 21:12:33 -
[897] - Quote
voetius wrote:Without wishing to get to get involved with your bunfight with Motie I would just like to point out that homeostasis is not a term referred to by Kahnemann in Thinking, Fast and Slow (his extended commentary on the Kahnemann and Tversky work that includes their seminal papers as appendices) nor is it referred to by Taleb (who is heavily influenced by Kahnemann and Tversky) in The Black Swan, or Fooled By Randomness, or Antifragility. Nor by Nate Silver in The Signal and the Noise (another that was influenced by Kahnemann and Tversky).
Yeah, it isn't a term I've come across in the literature myself. Which is why I hit IDEAS to see if there is used at all. It is. When I looked at the references for that particular paper they did cite some other cognitive/behavioral economics research. I did find an older article on monetary theory that used the word, but it went nowhere really. The guy wrote one paper, and it did not appear to garner any citations...and I didn't want to shell out $10 to get access to the paper itself. It was in a good journal though, American Economic Review.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1225
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 03:32:20 -
[898] - Quote
motie one wrote:Carry on, possibly you should speak to people who know the way real world economies work. Why? You've been speaking to people who know how the EVE economy works and it doesn't appear to have helped you at all.
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1225
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 04:52:53 -
[899] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
The combination of the CCP intervention at the end of last week and the ongoing PLEX sale appears to be having some effect. We've seen this before though and it will only be temporary.
I've already called the current stable price of plex at ~1.1B and I expect to see that rise to ~1.2B once these downward pressures have passed. It will be interesting to see if it falls bellow 1.1B this week, it will be a buying opportunity if it does. 1,129 Sell / 1,104 Buy atm
PLEX sale still going strong. Looking good to dip bellow 1.1B during the next few days. As with all previous PLEX sales, the price will bounce back up as soon as the sale is over, so when it goes below 1.1B you should be buying ready to cash in post sale. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3436
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 05:41:23 -
[900] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Carry on, possibly you should speak to people who know the way real world economies work. Why? You've been speaking to people who know how the EVE economy works and it doesn't appear to have helped you at all.
Ouch...just ouch.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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|
motie one
Secret Passage
41
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 07:03:05 -
[901] - Quote
Yeah, it is like being savaged by a sheep. |
Drago Nace
Perkone Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 19:41:10 -
[902] - Quote
motie one wrote:Yeah, it is like being savaged by a sheep.
You have obviously not seen this YouTube compilation:
Crazy Sheep Attacks Compilation
Sorry to interrupt... carry on.
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1228
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 01:09:02 -
[903] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
The combination of the CCP intervention at the end of last week and the ongoing PLEX sale appears to be having some effect. We've seen this before though and it will only be temporary.
I've already called the current stable price of plex at ~1.1B and I expect to see that rise to ~1.2B once these downward pressures have passed. It will be interesting to see if it falls bellow 1.1B this week, it will be a buying opportunity if it does. 1,129 Sell / 1,104 Buy atm PLEX sale still going strong. Looking good to dip bellow 1.1B during the next few days. As with all previous PLEX sales, the price will bounce back up as soon as the sale is over, so when it goes below 1.1B you should be buying ready to cash in post sale. 1,110 Sell / 1,080 Buy atm
PLEX sale still going. Buy, buy, buy! |
Bootneck
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 01:15:47 -
[904] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
The combination of the CCP intervention at the end of last week and the ongoing PLEX sale appears to be having some effect. We've seen this before though and it will only be temporary.
I've already called the current stable price of plex at ~1.1B and I expect to see that rise to ~1.2B once these downward pressures have passed. It will be interesting to see if it falls bellow 1.1B this week, it will be a buying opportunity if it does. 1,129 Sell / 1,104 Buy atm PLEX sale still going strong. Looking good to dip bellow 1.1B during the next few days. As with all previous PLEX sales, the price will bounce back up as soon as the sale is over, so when it goes below 1.1B you should be buying ready to cash in post sale. 1,110 Sell / 1,080 Buy atm PLEX sale still going. Buy, buy, buy!
Be funny if the 1,080 people with sell orders were the same 1,080 people with buy orders and there was only actually 30 genuine plex sellers beyond the 1,080 in a circlejerk of margin trading.
Greater fool theory etc.
There's no school like the old school and I've been expelled.
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1229
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 01:28:55 -
[905] - Quote
Bootneck wrote:Be funny if the 1,080 people with sell orders were the same 1,080 people with buy orders and there was only actually 30 genuine plex sellers beyond the 1,080 in a circlejerk of margin trading.
Greater fool theory etc. Those numbers are the prices, not the number of orders.
Any issue you may have with the "circlejerk of margin trading" is misplaced, as those people are not responsible for the PLEX price, they just follow the price up and down flipping from buy to sell. In fact those people actually provide liquidity in the market, which is a good thing.
The greater fool theory wouldn't be applicable to them either. I think you are thinking about speculators, who are an entirely different type of trader.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3453
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 01:34:30 -
[906] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bootneck wrote:Be funny if the 1,080 people with sell orders were the same 1,080 people with buy orders and there was only actually 30 genuine plex sellers beyond the 1,080 in a circlejerk of margin trading.
Greater fool theory etc. Those numbers are the prices, not the number of orders. Any issue you may have with the "circlejerk of margin trading" is misplaced, as those people are not responsible for the PLEX price, they just follow the price up and down flipping from buy to sell. In fact those people actually provide liquidity in the market, which is a good thing. The greater fool theory wouldn't be applicable to them either. I think you are thinking about speculators, who are an entirely different type of trader.
Why speculation is, generally, a good thing. Liquidity in a market is no small thing. Speculation is also, when you get right down to it, a market for information. Some players sit there and look for bits of information off of which to make ISK. They use that information for buy and sell orders and thereby influence the price and putting that information into the market. Granted, sometimes they are wrong, but so what they are accepting that risk hoping to reap a reward.
Everything working as intended. Markets doing their thing.
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motie one
Secret Passage
43
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 08:20:20 -
[907] - Quote
Bootneck wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
The combination of the CCP intervention at the end of last week and the ongoing PLEX sale appears to be having some effect. We've seen this before though and it will only be temporary.
I've already called the current stable price of plex at ~1.1B and I expect to see that rise to ~1.2B once these downward pressures have passed. It will be interesting to see if it falls bellow 1.1B this week, it will be a buying opportunity if it does. 1,129 Sell / 1,104 Buy atm PLEX sale still going strong. Looking good to dip bellow 1.1B during the next few days. As with all previous PLEX sales, the price will bounce back up as soon as the sale is over, so when it goes below 1.1B you should be buying ready to cash in post sale. 1,110 Sell / 1,080 Buy atm PLEX sale still going. Buy, buy, buy! Be funny if the 1,080 people with sell orders were the same 1,080 people with buy orders and there was only actually 30 genuine plex sellers beyond the 1,080 in a circlejerk of margin trading. Greater fool theory etc.
Ssh...... I think that's meant to be a secret, they don't want you scaring the wabbits (but thats the price by the way)
As to whether, there are many currently buying plex off the market to use? Only CCP have the answer. But you may well be not far off the right one. |
motie one
Secret Passage
43
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 08:36:38 -
[908] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
The combination of the CCP intervention at the end of last week and the ongoing PLEX sale appears to be having some effect. We've seen this before though and it will only be temporary.
I've already called the current stable price of plex at ~1.1B and I expect to see that rise to ~1.2B once these downward pressures have passed. It will be interesting to see if it falls bellow 1.1B this week, it will be a buying opportunity if it does. 1,129 Sell / 1,104 Buy atm PLEX sale still going strong. Looking good to dip bellow 1.1B during the next few days. As with all previous PLEX sales, the price will bounce back up as soon as the sale is over, so when it goes below 1.1B you should be buying ready to cash in post sale. 1,110 Sell / 1,080 Buy atm PLEX sale still going. Buy, buy, buy!
Needs a bit of small print. The value of your investment may go down as well as up. Past performance does not guarantee future performance, buy orders may not be satisfied, advice given is not guaranteed to be independent. Declaration of interest, author has a potiential conflict of interest and may be promoting a view that maximises the value of his current and future holdings. This product is not regulated by CCP or Concord, until it is, maybe.
Fixed it for you. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
692
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 11:56:35 -
[909] - Quote
You're smugposting at the wrong time, try again later today.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
Bootneck
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 13:48:03 -
[910] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bootneck wrote:Be funny if the 1,080 people with sell orders were the same 1,080 people with buy orders and there was only actually 30 genuine plex sellers beyond the 1,080 in a circlejerk of margin trading.
Greater fool theory etc. Those numbers are the prices, not the number of orders. Any issue you may have with the "circlejerk of margin trading" is misplaced, as those people are not responsible for the PLEX price, they just follow the price up and down flipping from buy to sell. In fact those people actually provide liquidity in the market, which is a good thing. The greater fool theory wouldn't be applicable to them either. I think you are thinking about speculators, who are an entirely different type of trader.
my error, i misread the figures as numbers of buy/sell orders not values, i haz the dumb.
My view is PLEX will continue to rise due to lack of purchaser interest. The value of EVE as a content proposition is laughably out of whack with what CCP thinks its worth for the average gamer when you look at what else is now on the market, there will be continued PLEX demand from the hardcore of EVE afficionados who are probably too broke in RL to do anything other than grind for ISK to play for free, but if I was a new player and looked at the content proposition, and the pricing. I would probably laugh then move on to something else.
I still enjoy EVE for what its worth, but certainly not enough to drop a lot of RLM buying gucci kit etc on it until CCP delivers some really worthwhile content that isn't the exact same thing we've had since beta with slight tweaks.
There's no school like the old school and I've been expelled.
|
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motie one
Secret Passage
43
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 15:06:59 -
[911] - Quote
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3nbzre/plex_is_now_11b_the_lowest_it_has_been_in_a_while/
See CCP Terminus reply. "The speculation bubble Bursting"
http://i.imgur.com/BcqBPLR.png
Time for smugpost yet? Too soon? Ok I'll wait, theres still "a few " who might not want to get caught with their trousers around their ankles. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3456
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 16:54:49 -
[912] - Quote
motie one wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3nbzre/plex_is_now_11b_the_lowest_it_has_been_in_a_while/ See CCP Terminus reply. "The speculation bubble Bursting" http://i.imgur.com/BcqBPLR.png Time for smugpost yet? Too soon? Ok I'll wait, theres still "a few " who might not want to get caught with their trousers around their ankles. Edit:- eve central seems to be down. Probably nothing to worry about........
FYI, this is what a real bubble bursting looks like.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case%E2%80%93Shiller_index#/media/File:Case-Shiller_data_from_1890_to_2012.png
Right now, this looks like profit taking to me. Prices have dropped down to the previous months values. Saying the bubble is bursting, if there is one, is a bit premature, IMO.
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
692
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 17:07:49 -
[913] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/4GuHWe6.png
So we're just a little ahead of schedule then?
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3456
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 17:28:28 -
[914] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:http://i.imgur.com/4GuHWe6.png So we're just a little ahead of schedule then?
Not quite. Look at the magnitude in the Case-Shiller Index, you have housing prices nearly double...then in a very short period of time those gains were wiped out.
With PLEX we've seen a 30% rise and they are being wiped out.
Could we see PLEX prices fall well below 1 billion? Sure, but I think it is unlikely. And even more unlikely to stay there.
If PLEX are in a bubble then it is one of the longest building bubbles ever. It has taken years for this bubble to build up. Which...would be very unusual in that asset bubbles usually have a fairly rapid rise in prices. Not a long slow build. And considering that CCP has been connecting PLEX to more and more things over the years like character transfers, skins, NEX store, buying fanfest tickets. These all increase the demand for PLEX.
And why didn't the nerf to ISBoxer and similar programs "burst the bubble"? We had a downward movement in prices that was rather noticeable, yet prices stabilized and stayed stable for quite some time. Again, not indicative of a bubble.
I'm not convinced there is a bubble. Could be, bubbles are hard to spot until after the fact. But right now I don't see it.
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So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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motie one
Secret Passage
43
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 17:51:45 -
[915] - Quote
You may have noticed that this bubble has been accelerating and has not been a straight line increase. As the consumption of plex has been decreasing, this has lead to the majority of transactions becoming either Trading speculative or a combination of longer term speculation and storage.
The tenuous link between "value" and price as a commodity has been broken and the price escalation can only become exponential as there is now no restriction to those seeking ever greater profits/margins other than other players in the market.
This continues until there is an event that moves expectations in the opposite direction. This then accelerates in a downward direction, until the value of consumption reaches a point to encourage consumers, -as in those that redeem Plex- to re-enter the market. It is possible that we are witnessing this process starting.
A better example than the house price market in the US might be another event that was occuring at the same time, that had a somewhat impactful effect.
So, How are your sub prime bonds doing as an ever increasing investment now?
Keep hoping the price will return to previous levels. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
692
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 18:46:36 -
[916] - Quote
BREAKING NEWS
CCP developer says PLEX price will continue to increase. TRIPLE BUY.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3nbzre/plex_is_now_11b_the_lowest_it_has_been_in_a_while/cvmybnm
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
motie one
Secret Passage
43
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 18:48:31 -
[917] - Quote
Obviously
Until it doesn't.
Actually I can respect him trying to dig out of that hole, he probably had a phone call or two after the first post.
This may not be the trigger event, under the circumstances, any more than the clear market interference by someone a week last Friday, or the Plex sale, or whatever will be said at fanfest.
If CCP however say or admit publicly, they are dissatisfied with the current state of affairs, then try to leave the room in an orderly manner? |
Vibiana
Frontier Trading Company
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 20:38:43 -
[918] - Quote
selective quoting, such selective. next step is editing |
motie one
Secret Passage
43
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 21:15:41 -
[919] - Quote
Vibiana wrote:selective quoting, such selective. next step is editing
It has moved on a little, He has made it clear that it is his own opinion and implied it is a bit of a troll (possibly) it's best to put this on one side, and see what they really mean when they are deciding what to say and do officially. |
Bootneck
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 22:08:40 -
[920] - Quote
You would have thought CCP would want to talk up the value of PLEX. After all they are selling them and the exchange rate is a big influencer of buyer appeal. Imagine the bank of england saying 'good news for George Soros, sterling is indeed massively overvalued and a crash is imminent.' And 'by the way, heres a new 100bn bond issue, it'll only be worth 80bn soon, but meh, sterling is overvalued'
There is nothing to stop CCP buying PLex off the market to maintain a set exchange rate that stimulates demand. They could have just as easily sold isk by the billion since it is just indirect RMT with players as the middleman atm and CCP pocketing the cash. Its just an accounting mechanism to keep the money supply under control using player isk, otherwise it would be akin to central bank quantitive easing and depending on scale potentially inflationary.
Also there is little to stop CCP buying up plex from the market and liquidating them if they feel the volume of plex in circulation threatens their future income flow. Unlike global markets there is no real consequence for CCP printing isk to buy back its own debt since eve is in a perpetual state of war where value destruction is a constant factor and many players abandon the game leaving their assets / isk out of circulation reducing money supply.
If EVE economists are smart, they will be operating a CPI inflation index on a basket of eve goods to ensure plex prices purchasing power remains a constant regardless of player market makers, since their focus is on the value propisition to sell plex for RLM.
Expecting market crashes is wishful thinking, eve isnt a free market economy like wall street, its closer to Russia where the state ( CCP) will set the rules and intervene to protect its own interests.
In that respect PLEX act as treasury notes and are a good hedge against inflation, since they are pegged to a real money exchange rate its not in CCP's interests to see 20 USD only buy a bantam.
There's no school like the old school and I've been expelled.
|
|
motie one
Secret Passage
43
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 23:17:18 -
[921] - Quote
Bootneck wrote:You would have thought CCP would want to talk up the value of PLEX. After all they are selling them and the exchange rate is a big influencer of buyer appeal. Imagine the bank of england saying 'good news for George Soros, sterling is indeed massively overvalued and a crash is imminent.' And 'by the way, heres a new 100bn bond issue, it'll only be worth 80bn soon, but meh, sterling is overvalued'
There is nothing to stop CCP buying PLex off the market to maintain a set exchange rate that stimulates demand. They could have just as easily sold isk by the billion since it is just indirect RMT with players as the middleman atm and CCP pocketing the cash. Its just an accounting mechanism to keep the money supply under control using player isk, otherwise it would be akin to central bank quantitive easing and depending on scale potentially inflationary.
Also there is little to stop CCP buying up plex from the market and liquidating them if they feel the volume of plex in circulation threatens their future income flow. Unlike global markets there is no real consequence for CCP printing isk to buy back its own debt since eve is in a perpetual state of war where value destruction is a constant factor and many players abandon the game leaving their assets / isk out of circulation reducing money supply.
If EVE economists are smart, they will be operating a CPI inflation index on a basket of eve goods to ensure plex prices purchasing power remains a constant regardless of player market makers, since their focus is on the value propisition to sell plex for RLM.
Expecting market crashes is wishful thinking, eve isnt a free market economy like wall street, its closer to Russia where the state ( CCP) will set the rules and intervene to protect its own interests.
In that respect PLEX act as treasury notes and are a good hedge against inflation, since they are pegged to a real money exchange rate its not in CCP's interests to see 20 USD only buy a bantam.
Agreed, It would not be in CCP's best interest to crash the price of plex. CCP could of course slowly drive the price down, as much as the search For ever increasing yield by players in the markets pushes it up.
Remember, there is no right price, there is however a functional price, where it is viable to both exchange rw cash for plex to sell in game, and to exchange Isk for plex to redeem for pilots services. A point where both are equally functional and viable.
This is where CCP's interests, and players interests go hand in hand.
For those who argue that high exchange values drives rw plex sales, so that must be great for Great for CCP? remember that the botters and RMT players will not have disappeared.
They will change techniques, the minutes show that apparently the high prices may be Encouraging them to Credit card and other fraud to get plex, as the high exchange makes this greatly more viable and profitable. And also remember Credit card companies chargeback as well as causing issues for the retailer. So overvalued Plex is not exactly in CCP's best interests either, but conversely in the RMT operators best interest. The exact opposite of what some have been claiming, quite falsely.
Good to see that CCP are on top of this and are not fooled.
I know that some hate the word balance, but really balancing these disparate needs is in everyones best interest in the medium to long term.
Those who have a significant interest in keeping Plex high for the natural and obvious self interest will not agree however. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3456
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 23:55:13 -
[922] - Quote
motie one wrote: For those who argue that high exchange values drives rw plex sales, so that must be great for Great for CCP? remember that the botters and RMT players will not have disappeared.
Yes, and the lower the ISK price of PLEX the better it is for RMTers.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
693
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 00:05:33 -
[923] - Quote
motie one wrote:They are entitled to their opinion, whether credible or not.
This is the most sensible thing you've said.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3458
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 02:32:40 -
[924] - Quote
Bootneck wrote:
Expecting market crashes is wishful thinking, eve isnt a free market economy like wall street, its closer to Russia where the state ( CCP) will set the rules and intervene to protect its own interests.
Right, there is no regulation for Wall Street. There is no FED, SEC, etc.
I think you have it exactly backwards.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1233
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 04:45:28 -
[925] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
The combination of the CCP intervention at the end of last week and the ongoing PLEX sale appears to be having some effect. We've seen this before though and it will only be temporary.
I've already called the current stable price of plex at ~1.1B and I expect to see that rise to ~1.2B once these downward pressures have passed. It will be interesting to see if it falls bellow 1.1B this week, it will be a buying opportunity if it does. 1,129 Sell / 1,104 Buy atm PLEX sale still going strong. Looking good to dip bellow 1.1B during the next few days. As with all previous PLEX sales, the price will bounce back up as soon as the sale is over, so when it goes below 1.1B you should be buying ready to cash in post sale. 1,110 Sell / 1,080 Buy atm PLEX sale still going. Buy, buy, buy! 1,112 Sell / 1,096 Buy atm |
Vibiana
Frontier Trading Company
31
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 06:25:31 -
[926] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:[quote=Bad Bobby][quote=Bad Bobby]1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
PLEX sale still going. Buy, buy, buy! 1,112 Sell / 1,096 Buy atm
just to keep that thread away from stupid price listings, I have a question:
Dear Bobby, what is the bottom price do you expect in this round of the PLEX match?
And why? Is that ~200 buy orders yours? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1233
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 06:50:52 -
[927] - Quote
Already answered, if you read back. Hence my smugposting the prices. |
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 08:50:17 -
[928] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote: For those who argue that high exchange values drives rw plex sales, so that must be great for Great for CCP? remember that the botters and RMT players will not have disappeared.
Yes, and the lower the ISK price of PLEX the better it is for RMTers.
If you feed rats, you soon find them crawling all over your living room. Who would you rather they support, RMTers or Players?
When Plex sells at a price that is not a banquet for the "rats", and still desireable enough that CCP makes a good income, Traders have a commodity in good supply and demand, and Players can buy it for isk for fair labour.
Then Plex is good, fair and functional.
If it merely plays to RMTers and speculators, both long and short term, and creates a feeding frenzy where traders drive the price to more and more unrealistic levels, and end users cease to even consider it as something that they can actually use.
Then plex is actually something harmful, and damaging, at so many levels.
I do not believe that that can, or will continue. It will either be steered back into a healthy state, or there will be an almighty correction.
Even a Blind rat, nailed in a barrel, and placed in a dark cave, should be able to see that the money river is going to and is beginning to run dry. |
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 11:19:28 -
[929] - Quote
Vibiana wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:[quote=Bad Bobby][quote=Bad Bobby]1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
PLEX sale still going. Buy, buy, buy! 1,112 Sell / 1,096 Buy atm just to keep that thread away from stupid price listings, I have a question: Dear Bobby, what is the bottom price do you expect in this round of the PLEX match? And why? Is that ~200 buy orders yours?
Someone is clealy trying to establish a Floor, But it looks far to weak to protect against a break through. Do not assume that all those 200 apparent orders would turn out to be able to be satisfied, likely someone with a high margin trading and other skills, is playing "price support" with a dedicated alt with an empty wallet.
I also doubt is it would be a market trader doing this, market traders benefit from high volatility and activity in a predictable range. Setting the range, limits their opportunities, but they can benefit from the false sense of security I guess.
Smart market traders can do very well at the moment, but the risk of "breakthrough" must be worrying, definitely a time to monitor developments by the minute, otherwise it could be unfortunate. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1233
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 11:55:55 -
[930] - Quote
1,153 Sell / 1,135 Buy atm
It's not what's going on in the buy orders that is important right now. I could do with keeping the price down for at least another day, so feel free to continue the deranged tinfoil doomsaying. Alternatively: buy, buy, buy!
|
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motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 12:58:06 -
[931] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:1,153 Sell / 1,135 Buy atm
It's not what's going on in the buy orders that is important right now. I could do with keeping the price down for at least another day, so feel free to continue the deranged tinfoil doomsaying. Alternatively: buy, buy, buy!
Fine, Glad it is helpful, It might even turn out to be right, then you can buy even cheaper!!!
Selling might be more of a challenge though.
Keep it up though, someone might buy enough to let you exit your position eventually, one can always hope? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1233
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 13:25:20 -
[932] - Quote
motie one wrote:Fine, Glad it is helpful, It might even turn out to be right, then you can buy even cheaper!!! That is what I said before.
Remember that you are the one that thinks propping up PLEX prices makes sense, I'm the one that thinks anyone doing so is an idiot.
motie one wrote:Keep it up though, someone might buy enough to let you exit your position eventually, one can always hope? Why would I be holding a position? |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
696
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 13:33:19 -
[933] - Quote
motie one wrote: [...] So now that statement you proposed, repeated ad infinitum almost as a universal truth, until people started to believe it, has been publicly Exposed as a lie, literally a cover for RMTers actions, new Propaganda will need to be written by the RMTers, to be repeated by the gullible at every opportunity.
CCP understand, are not gullible, have seen through the clumsy lies, and are on to them, and Know EXACTLY what they are doing.
[...]
If you feed rats, you soon find them crawling all over your living room. Who would you rather CCP support, RMTers or Players?
When Plex sells in game, at a price that is not a banquet for the "rats", and still desireable enough that CCP makes a good income, Traders have a commodity in good supply and demand, and Players can buy it for isk for fair labour.
Then Plex is good, fair and functional.
If it merely plays to RMTers and speculators, both long and short term, and creates a feeding frenzy where traders drive the price to more and more unrealistic levels, and end users cease to even consider it as something that they can actually use.
[...]
Could you elaborate on this? I was under the impression that rising PLEX prices helped speculators, but did the opposite for RMTers.
Edit: I wasn't caught up, we're getting to the juicy stuff now it seems.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1233
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 13:51:54 -
[934] - Quote
Shar Tegral wrote:Then, suddenly, I realized that you are a buffoon and don't know what you are talking about. Once I realized that, your post made much sense. |
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 14:04:08 -
[935] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Fine, Glad it is helpful, It might even turn out to be right, then you can buy even cheaper!!! That is what I said before. Remember that you are the one that thinks propping up PLEX prices makes sense, I'm the one that thinks anyone doing so is an idiot. motie one wrote:Keep it up though, someone might buy enough to let you exit your position eventually, one can always hope? Why would I be holding a position?
Glad you are not, it could get messy.
And as for propping up Plex prices, some will believe it is in their best interests, I believe the opposite applies.
Thanks for clarifying, we are appearing on these points to be fully in agreement. |
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 14:11:27 -
[936] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:motie one wrote: [...] So now that statement you proposed, repeated ad infinitum almost as a universal truth, until people started to believe it, has been publicly Exposed as a lie, literally a cover for RMTers actions, new Propaganda will need to be written by the RMTers, to be repeated by the gullible at every opportunity.
CCP understand, are not gullible, have seen through the clumsy lies, and are on to them, and Know EXACTLY what they are doing.
[...]
If you feed rats, you soon find them crawling all over your living room. Who would you rather CCP support, RMTers or Players?
When Plex sells in game, at a price that is not a banquet for the "rats", and still desireable enough that CCP makes a good income, Traders have a commodity in good supply and demand, and Players can buy it for isk for fair labour.
Then Plex is good, fair and functional.
If it merely plays to RMTers and speculators, both long and short term, and creates a feeding frenzy where traders drive the price to more and more unrealistic levels, and end users cease to even consider it as something that they can actually use.
[...]
Could you elaborate on this? I was under the impression that rising PLEX prices helped speculators, but did the opposite for RMTers. Edit: I wasn't caught up, we're getting to the juicy stuff now it seems. motie one wrote:They will change techniques, the minutes show that the war against bots, is going really well, but apparently the increased risks associated with botting may be Encouraging them to Credit card and other fraud to get plex, as the high exchange also makes this greatly more viable and profitable. And also remember Credit card companies chargeback as well as causing issues for the retailer. So overvalued Plex is not exactly in CCP's best interests either, but conversely in the RMT operators best interest. The exact opposite of what some have been claiming, quite falsely. CCP Peligro said "It's a bit of a double edged sword. Less bots, more fraud.", why does ISK cost of PLEX matter for them in regards to fraud? No matter what they have to undercut them to stay competitive and RL PLEX cost is fixed around $17-20, so even if in-game PLEX hit 20b, they would still have to significantly undercut $20 per 20b to stay competitive. If anything higher PLEX prices not only reduce the profitability of botting (I don't think PVE income isn't going up at the moment), they also reduce the profitability of account hacking, unless the average account they rob is increasing their wealth at the same rate as PLEX is appreciating. I can't see how the rising ISK cost of PLEX affects the profitability of credit card fraud. The only thing I got from the minutes were that because of their efforts to ban bots, the new sov system and other unmentioned factors (rising PLEX prices perhaps? ;)) it's "it's a lot more expensive to bot now." (Peligro), so RMTers are instead turning to fraud. motie one wrote:News flash:- High Plex to ISK redemption rates drive RMT sellers sales! (Who would have guessed?Roll) But not CCP's? No matter what RMTers have to undercut CCP due to the risk associated with their business, so why would a better higher PLEX prices benefit RMTers more than CCP? The only thing I can think of is if RMT looked significantly better (say 1b more per $20) than PLEX from CCP, even if the RMT risk discount percentage was the same as usual. The Nosy Gamer has talked about this, I'll see if I can find his posts about it, I think there were some statistics.
Yes, I am sure there are a lot of factors and variables to consider, but having RMTers acting as competiition, that CCP effectively has to pay the costs of, must be very frustrating. Possibly the disparity in exchange rates/ value in country relative to living costs, may mean that when Plex has a high in game value that people want plex for cash, and the RMTers can get an increased number of customers and undercut CCP whilst still being highly profitable in local terms. I have not kept up on rouble exchange rate, so I do not know if that is the direction they are coming from, but either way, RMTers are acting as competition for CCP even if CCP still make some money from Plex sales. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1233
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 14:26:29 -
[937] - Quote
motie one wrote:Glad you are not, it could get messy. It's not that it could get messy, it's that it's either idiotic or redundant.
motie one wrote:And as for propping up Plex prices, some will believe it is in their best interests What reason would they have for believing that? What set of circumstances would make it beneficial?
Sure there will be the odd fool out there behaving irrationally on the market, but it's unlikely that such a person would wield sufficient isk to make an impact on the market, because fools don't generally have that kind of isk.
You are advancing tinfoil theories that are predicated on their being a super rich illuminati that is staffed entirely with imbeciles that are hell bent on losing their isk. I don't think the existence of such a group is plausible, because the entire concept is contradictory.
motie one wrote:Thanks for clarifying, we are appearing on these points to be fully in agreement. Which points? The only point I advanced was that you are delusional. It would be somewhat paradoxical if you were to agree with me. |
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 14:36:05 -
[938] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Glad you are not, it could get messy. It's not that it could get messy, it's that it's either idiotic or redundant. motie one wrote:And as for propping up Plex prices, some will believe it is in their best interests What reason would they have for believing that? What set of circumstances would make it beneficial? Sure there will be the odd fool out there behaving irrationally on the market, but it's unlikely that such a person would wield sufficient isk to make an impact on the market, because fools don't generally have that kind of isk. You are advancing tinfoil theories that are predicated on their being a super rich illuminati that is staffed entirely with imbeciles that are hell bent on losing their isk. I don't think the existence of such a group is plausible, because the entire concept is contradictory. motie one wrote:Thanks for clarifying, we are appearing on these points to be fully in agreement. Which points? The only point I advanced was that you are delusional. It would be somewhat paradoxical if you were to agree with me.
For someone who seems to have reasonable market insight, it is surprising how you so fail to understand the motivations of many you deal with with many of your transactions, seeing Plex as purely a token to keep score, clearly blinds you to the wider aspects.
I'll leave it at that. It is so much easier, not to see the obvious. I will leave you with your world view, as it is clearly hard for you to imagine otherwise, and possibly make you a less effective trader if you had to consider the whole picture. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1233
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 14:40:44 -
[939] - Quote
motie one wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Glad you are not, it could get messy. It's not that it could get messy, it's that it's either idiotic or redundant. motie one wrote:And as for propping up Plex prices, some will believe it is in their best interests What reason would they have for believing that? What set of circumstances would make it beneficial? Sure there will be the odd fool out there behaving irrationally on the market, but it's unlikely that such a person would wield sufficient isk to make an impact on the market, because fools don't generally have that kind of isk. You are advancing tinfoil theories that are predicated on their being a super rich illuminati that is staffed entirely with imbeciles that are hell bent on losing their isk. I don't think the existence of such a group is plausible, because the entire concept is contradictory. motie one wrote:Thanks for clarifying, we are appearing on these points to be fully in agreement. Which points? The only point I advanced was that you are delusional. It would be somewhat paradoxical if you were to agree with me. For someone who seems to have reasonable market insight, it is surprising how you so fail to understand the motivations of those you deal with with many of your transactions, seeing Plex as purely a token to keep score,of your trading gains, clearly blinds you to the wider aspects. I'll leave it at that. It is so much easier, not to see the obvious. I will leave you with your world view, as it is clearly hard for you to imagine otherwise, and possibly make you a less effective trader if you had to consider the whole picture. So you are just going to throw around the tinfoil and coward out whenever anyone calls you on it?
|
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 14:46:14 -
[940] - Quote
There is more than enough already posted as to explanations and justifications for my comments. You are more than free to hide beneath a towel and say all is well, and nothing to see here move along.
I'll just post this. http://h2g2.com/entry/A387029 |
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1233
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 15:03:25 -
[941] - Quote
motie one wrote:There is more than enough already posted as to explanations and justifications for my comments. A bit too much for you to reduce to a dismissive one line attack. Do you really believe readers are that stupid? And that would work? I'm not speaking to "readers" I'm speaking to you. I'm calling you out for posting baseless nonsense. You can either defend your claims or not.
I think you are just here to troll and spout gibberish. You can prove me wrong if you wish. |
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 15:10:53 -
[942] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:There is more than enough already posted as to explanations and justifications for my comments. A bit too much for you to reduce to a dismissive one line attack. Do you really believe readers are that stupid? And that would work? I'm not speaking to "readers" I'm speaking to you. I'm calling you out for posting baseless nonsense. You can either defend your claims or not. I think you are just here to troll and spout gibberish. You can prove me wrong if you wish. Well, all points are raised, and discussed in previously published posts. I recommend that If you have any interest whatsoever, in understanding them, you should attempt to read them. As opposed to just looking for the odd line you can snip out, and quote out of context.
But as I do not believe you have such an interest, and are simply trying to supress any information or view that upsets your tidy little "unofficial" trading cartel there is not much point even bringing your attention to them.
But of course you could be right, Everything is wonderful! All is right with the world, and Everyone should buy as many plex as they can beg borrow or steal to afford.
And we can all dance hand in hand happily into the rosy future.
>>insert amazing amount of sarcasm emoji here<< |
Ishmael D'ren
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 16:07:08 -
[943] - Quote
Wait, you think Bad Bobby, or some kind of cartel is propping plex prices up? |
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 16:19:22 -
[944] - Quote
Ishmael D'ren wrote:Wait, you think Bad Bobby, or some kind of cartel is propping plex prices up?
Bobby? Not so much that it counts in the big scheme of things.
Others? One would be naive not to know that. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1233
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 16:23:26 -
[945] - Quote
motie one wrote:Bobby? Not so much that it counts. So now I'm incompetent as well as an evil imbecile? This is getting better.
motie one wrote:Others? One would be naive not to know that. So you know that these evil imbeciles exist? |
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 16:27:09 -
[946] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Bobby? Not so much that it counts. So now I'm incompetent as well as an evil imbecile? This is getting better. motie one wrote:Others? One would be naive not to know that. So you know that these evil imbeciles exist?
Bobby If you had any capability to extract meaning from words, you should know precisely my opinion. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1233
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 16:36:55 -
[947] - Quote
motie one wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Bobby? Not so much that it counts. So now I'm incompetent as well as an evil imbecile? This is getting better. motie one wrote:Others? One would be naive not to know that. So you know that these evil imbeciles exist? Bobby If you had any capability to extract meaning from words, you should know precisely my opinion. ...and I'm illiterate too? |
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 16:40:24 -
[948] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Bobby? Not so much that it counts. So now I'm incompetent as well as an evil imbecile? This is getting better. motie one wrote:Others? One would be naive not to know that. So you know that these evil imbeciles exist? Bobby If you had any capability to extract meaning from words, you should know precisely my opinion. ...and I'm illiterate too?
I have no issue with you extracting profit from the gullible, I do take slight exception though, to the level of arrogance, that believes everyone is so easily manipulated. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1233
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 16:46:03 -
[949] - Quote
motie one wrote:Possibly this thread should get back to the subject of plex and not how others see you? No this thread should totally be about me.
|
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
698
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 16:46:47 -
[950] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Bobby? Not so much that it counts. So now I'm incompetent as well as an evil imbecile? This is getting better. motie one wrote:Others? One would be naive not to know that. So you know that these evil imbeciles exist? Bobby If you had any capability to extract meaning from words, you should know precisely my opinion. ...and I'm illiterate too?
It's dangerous to go alone! Take this.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1240
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 16:49:26 -
[951] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:It's dangerous to go alone! Take this. <3 |
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 16:52:27 -
[952] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Possibly this thread should get back to the subject of plex and not how others see you? No this thread should totally be about me.
Nice to see the Eve O forums continuing to provide interesting and worthwhile discussion. |
I LIKE IT
HIGH RISK INVESTMENT
213
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 16:52:32 -
[953] - Quote
I LIKE IT! ISK SENT! |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1240
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 16:54:02 -
[954] - Quote
motie one wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Possibly this thread should get back to the subject of plex and not how others see you? No this thread should totally be about me. Nice to see the Eve O forums continuing to provide interesting and worthwhile discussion. Sorry I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.
|
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 17:22:00 -
[955] - Quote
Confirmed that it costs more to drag 2 PLEx from the Login Client over to a pilot docked in station 2 jumps away from Jita IV-4 Nav.
However, it worked the first time around, although I heard a targeting sound trying to scan my cargo on exit. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1240
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 17:36:15 -
[956] - Quote
Gadolf Agalder wrote:Confirmed that it costs more to drag 2 PLEx from the Login Client over to a pilot docked in station 2 jumps away from Jita IV-4 Nav.
However, it worked the first time around, although I heard a targeting sound trying to scan my cargo on exit. Are you telling me that you are actually moving plex away from Jita 4-4?
May I ask why? |
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 17:43:52 -
[957] - Quote
Gadolf Agalder wrote:Confirmed that it costs more to drag 2 PLEx from the Login Client over to a pilot docked in station 2 jumps away from Jita IV-4 Nav.
However, it worked the first time around, although I heard a targeting sound trying to scan my cargo on exit.
Shudder! |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 17:44:17 -
[958] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Gadolf Agalder wrote:Confirmed that it costs more to drag 2 PLEx from the Login Client over to a pilot docked in station 2 jumps away from Jita IV-4 Nav.
However, it worked the first time around, although I heard a targeting sound trying to scan my cargo on exit. Are you telling me that you are actually moving plex away from Jita 4-4? May I ask why? No , actually, as you can read, he was moving it TO Jita 4-4. Not AWAY From as you suggested. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1240
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 17:45:20 -
[959] - Quote
Buzz Orti wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Gadolf Agalder wrote:Confirmed that it costs more to drag 2 PLEx from the Login Client over to a pilot docked in station 2 jumps away from Jita IV-4 Nav.
However, it worked the first time around, although I heard a targeting sound trying to scan my cargo on exit. Are you telling me that you are actually moving plex away from Jita 4-4? May I ask why? No , actually, as you can read, he was moving it TO Jita 4-4. Not AWAY From as you suggested. Erm?
|
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 17:52:53 -
[960] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Buzz Orti wrote:...to a pilot docked in station 2 jumps away from Jita IV-4 Nav.
.... ... May I ask why? Erm?
The reason why is because I thought that it was going to let me move the PLEx to a station from the ingame Redeem option, rather than making them Station Bound after dragging the items from the Login client.
It is not so, I have screenshots as well, it clearly was bound to the station the piiot was docked in.
http://imgur.com/3LjkuuX
The PLEx is in station near Jita 2 jumps away, if you tried to spied on the location, it's right there. There is no difference except for the second time there would be a similar mistake by me.
Plus, you also spy on the name of the pilot.
And no, I didn't use the Ibis to transport those high worth items... |
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1244
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 17:59:58 -
[961] - Quote
Gadolf Agalder wrote:The reason why is because I thought that it was going to let me move the PLEx to a station from the ingame Redeem option, rather than making them Station Bound after dragging the items from the Login client. That doesn't explain why you would want to move them.
You can apply them to a pilot regardless of where the PLEX and the pilot are located, so there is no need to move them away from Jita 4-4. |
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 18:03:01 -
[962] - Quote
Gadolf Agalder wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Buzz Orti wrote:...to a pilot docked in station 2 jumps away from Jita IV-4 Nav.
.... ... May I ask why? Erm? The reason why is because I thought that it was going to let me move the PLEx to a station from the ingame Redeem option, rather than making them Station Bound after dragging the items from the Login client. It is not so, I have screenshots as well, it clearly was bound to the station the piiot was docked in. http://imgur.com/3LjkuuX The PLEx is in station near Jita 2 jumps away, if you tried to spied on the location, it's right there. There is no difference except for the second time there would be a similar mistake by me. Plus, you also spy on the name of the pilot. And no, I didn't use the Ibis to transport those high worth items...
So you were moving them to sell for the best price?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3462
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 18:03:56 -
[963] - Quote
motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote: For those who argue that high exchange values drives rw plex sales, so that must be great for Great for CCP? remember that the botters and RMT players will not have disappeared.
Yes, and the lower the ISK price of PLEX the better it is for RMTers. Hopefully, you read the sentence that followed this where that ^^(your reply) was clearly shown to be a falsehood, if not an actual deliberate lie designed to mask their actions and motivations? so this reply makes sense to you, (unless you were Just looking for words to clip out without actually reading or understanding the post?) Otherwise, Clearly you have not got the message that that propaganda has been discredited? News flash:- High Plex to ISK redemption rates drive RMT sellers sales! (Who would have guessed? ) So now that statement you proposed, repeated ad infinitum almost as a universal truth, until people started to believe it, has been publicly Exposed as a lie, literally a cover for RMTers actions, new Propaganda will need to be written by the RMTers, to be repeated by the gullible at every opportunity. CCP understand, are not gullible, have seen through the clumsy lies, and are on to them, and Know EXACTLY what they are doing. So Assuming, you read it and the little was intended as a double meaning, ironic, self deprecating attempt at humour, but just not done that clearly, here is a reply. If not jump straight to the last sentence. If you feed rats, you soon find them crawling all over your living room. Who would you rather CCP support, RMTers or Players? When Plex sells in game, at a price that is not a banquet for the "rats", and still desireable enough that CCP makes a good income, Traders have a commodity in good supply and demand, and Players can buy it for isk for fair labour. Then Plex is good, fair and functional. If it merely plays to RMTers and speculators, both long and short term, and creates a feeding frenzy where traders drive the price to more and more unrealistic levels, and end users cease to even consider it as something that they can actually use. Then plex is actually something harmful, and damaging, at so many levels. I do not believe that that can, or will continue. It will either be steered back into a healthy state, or there will be an almighty correction. Even a Blind rat, nailed in a barrel, and placed in a dark cave, should be able to see that the money river is going to and is beginning to run dry. You of course have the right to continue in your beliefs, in spite of everything.
Motie, once again, you have it completely backwards. If I want to "buy ISK" broadly speaking I can:
A. Buy just over a billion ISK legally and risk nothing in terms of my account status or the balance of my wallet. B. Buy 1 billion ISK illegally and risk a ban and having my wallet drained, possibly set negative.
Which is better?
In fact, the higher the price of PLEX in option A, the better and better that deal looks. More ISK zero risk.
To claim otherwise is simply pure idiocy.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 18:04:03 -
[964] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Gadolf Agalder wrote:The reason why is because I thought that it was going to let me move the PLEx to a station from the ingame Redeem option, rather than making them Station Bound after dragging the items from the Login client. That doesn't explain why you would want to move them. You can apply them to a pilot regardless of where the PLEX and the pilot are located, so there is no need to move them away from Jita 4-4. But they never were in Jita in the first place. How can it even be scientifically possible to move them from somewhere they were never not at?
You both get a zero from me in logic.
Secondly, once the PLEx are bound to a station by the redeem options, they cannot be moved except otherwise ingame. They can be moved back to the Redeem screen to have them redeemed to other pilots on the same account. However, that will not allow you to move the PLEx. |
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 18:09:39 -
[965] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote: For those who argue that high exchange values drives rw plex sales, so that must be great for Great for CCP? remember that the botters and RMT players will not have disappeared.
Yes, and the lower the ISK price of PLEX the better it is for RMTers. Hopefully, you read the sentence that followed this where that ^^(your reply) was clearly shown to be a falsehood, if not an actual deliberate lie designed to mask their actions and motivations? so this reply makes sense to you, (unless you were Just looking for words to clip out without actually reading or understanding the post?) Otherwise, Clearly you have not got the message that that propaganda has been discredited? News flash:- High Plex to ISK redemption rates drive RMT sellers sales! (Who would have guessed? ) So now that statement you proposed, repeated ad infinitum almost as a universal truth, until people started to believe it, has been publicly Exposed as a lie, literally a cover for RMTers actions, new Propaganda will need to be written by the RMTers, to be repeated by the gullible at every opportunity. CCP understand, are not gullible, have seen through the clumsy lies, and are on to them, and Know EXACTLY what they are doing. So Assuming, you read it and the little was intended as a double meaning, ironic, self deprecating attempt at humour, but just not done that clearly, here is a reply. If not jump straight to the last sentence. If you feed rats, you soon find them crawling all over your living room. Who would you rather CCP support, RMTers or Players? When Plex sells in game, at a price that is not a banquet for the "rats", and still desireable enough that CCP makes a good income, Traders have a commodity in good supply and demand, and Players can buy it for isk for fair labour. Then Plex is good, fair and functional. If it merely plays to RMTers and speculators, both long and short term, and creates a feeding frenzy where traders drive the price to more and more unrealistic levels, and end users cease to even consider it as something that they can actually use. Then plex is actually something harmful, and damaging, at so many levels. I do not believe that that can, or will continue. It will either be steered back into a healthy state, or there will be an almighty correction. Even a Blind rat, nailed in a barrel, and placed in a dark cave, should be able to see that the money river is going to and is beginning to run dry. You of course have the right to continue in your beliefs, in spite of everything. Motie, once again, you have it completely backwards. If I want to "buy ISK" broadly speaking I can: A. Buy just over a billion ISK legally and risk nothing in terms of my account status or the balance of my wallet. B. Buy 1 billion ISK illegally and risk a ban and having my wallet drained, possibly set negative. Which is better? In fact, the higher the price of PLEX in option A, the better and better that deal looks. More ISK zero risk. To claim otherwise is simply pure idiocy. What??? When someone is buying a plex with a stolen or fraudulent credit card and selling to a gullible player wanting to save a few rubles, etc.(whatever has a large disparity in value) the RMT'er really doesn't give a damn for Either CCP or the victim with the empty wallet. The more the sucker believes he will get for his plex, the more the demand to buy it.
Read the minutes. CCP are quite clear as to what is going on. Or do you believe that the RMTers are commiting credit card fraud, just to keep a large Plex collection and do not want to sell them? They are a direct Competitor to CCP and the Higher the Plex sell value, the more stupid people they can sell to. The buyers always imagine somehow that THEY will never get caught. Never not bet on stupid. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3462
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 18:28:33 -
[966] - Quote
motie one wrote: What??? When someone is buying a plex with a stolen or fraudulent credit card and selling to a gullible player wanting to save a few rubles, etc.(whatever has a large disparity in value) one really doesn't give a damn for Either CCP or the victim with the empty wallet.
Read the minutes.
There you go, mixing apples and oranges...hell not even oranges more like apples and pianos. I was talking about how the high ISK price of PLEX reduces the number of customers for websites that sell ISK. I was not addressing RL criminal activites such as credit card fraud. In any event trying to reduce the price of PLEX in game to address RL crimes strikes me as errant nonsense. It is punishing players for things they have not done nor have any control over.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 18:36:54 -
[967] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote: What??? When someone is buying a plex with a stolen or fraudulent credit card and selling to a gullible player wanting to save a few rubles, etc.(whatever has a large disparity in value) one really doesn't give a damn for Either CCP or the victim with the empty wallet.
Read the minutes.
There you go, mixing apples and oranges...hell not even oranges more like apples and pianos. I was talking about how the high ISK price of PLEX reduces the number of customers for websites that sell ISK. I was not addressing RL criminal activites such as credit card fraud. In any event trying to reduce the price of PLEX in game to address RL crimes strikes me as errant nonsense. It is punishing players for things they have not done nor have any control over.
Let me try to explain it in simple words.
The high Price of plex in certain countries, in real money makes the unofficial transaction appealing. The high price of plex in game makes the offer of a plex for a reduced sum of real money more attractive. The high price of plex in game makes the desireability of Plex greater, encouraging more sales. Of both official and unofficial transactions RMT traders are competing directly with CCP and Official sellers for the sale of these Plex.
Just do a quick google for legitimate sounding sites. Some are quite convincing, and how are they going to know? For example the official list shows only Amazon USA, what about those sold on Amazon UK and Amazon Germany? CCP are selling there, but apparently they are not an official supplier? (They are genuine). But they could just be someone using that name.
For some, the prospect of a good deal outweighs common sense, especially if they do not know it is an unauthorised route, that may have consequences.
Please GOD, LET YOU UNDERSTAND THAT! |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
699
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 19:31:25 -
[968] - Quote
motie one wrote:The high Price of plex in certain countries, in real money makes the unofficial transaction appealing.
Could you describe the scenario in which this happens? Include all prices and exchange rates please.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3465
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 19:33:03 -
[969] - Quote
motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote: What??? When someone is buying a plex with a stolen or fraudulent credit card and selling to a gullible player wanting to save a few rubles, etc.(whatever has a large disparity in value) one really doesn't give a damn for Either CCP or the victim with the empty wallet.
Read the minutes.
There you go, mixing apples and oranges...hell not even oranges more like apples and pianos. I was talking about how the high ISK price of PLEX reduces the number of customers for websites that sell ISK. I was not addressing RL criminal activites such as credit card fraud. In any event trying to reduce the price of PLEX in game to address RL crimes strikes me as errant nonsense. It is punishing players for things they have not done nor have any control over. Let me try to explain it in simple words. The high Price of plex in certain countries, in real money makes the unofficial transaction appealing. The high price of plex in game makes the offer of a plex for a reduced sum of real money more attractive. The high price of plex in game makes the desireability of Plex greater, encouraging more sales. Of both official and unofficial transactions RMT traders are competing directly with CCP and Official sellers for the sale of these Plex. Just do a quick google for legitimate sounding sites. Some are quite convincing, and how are they going to know? For example the official list shows only Amazon USA, what about those sold on Amazon UK and Amazon Germany? CCP are selling there, but apparently they are not an official supplier? (They are genuine). But they could just be someone using that name. For some, the prospect of a good deal outweighs common sense, especially if they do not know it is an unauthorised route, that may have consequences. Please GOD, LET YOU UNDERSTAND THAT!
Please train reading comprehension to level 1.
Yes, I get what you are saying, but to use that as an argument that PLEX prices in the game should be lowered is just nonsense.
If player A has alot of ISK and decides to invest it in PLEX because it is a nice hedge against inflation and he doesn't have any other viable options at the moment...then motie one's idiotic idea of producing PLEX in game is for some idiotic reason implemented to...curb RL crime (Whisky Tango Foxtrot)...then that player is essentially suffering a loss due to RL crime he was in no way a party too.
Nerfing good players who are not breaking in-game rules or even RL laws to get at some bad actors is dumb.
Oh...and no, the high price of PLEX in terms of ISK has an ambiguous effect on PLEX sales in RL. While the high value in terms of ISK would lead to an increase in sales, the higher value means a player may only have to sell 1 or 2 whereas before he might have sold 3 or 4.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 19:37:28 -
[970] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote: What??? When someone is buying a plex with a stolen or fraudulent credit card and selling to a gullible player wanting to save a few rubles, etc.(whatever has a large disparity in value) one really doesn't give a damn for Either CCP or the victim with the empty wallet.
Read the minutes.
There you go, mixing apples and oranges...hell not even oranges more like apples and pianos. I was talking about how the high ISK price of PLEX reduces the number of customers for websites that sell ISK. I was not addressing RL criminal activites such as credit card fraud. In any event trying to reduce the price of PLEX in game to address RL crimes strikes me as errant nonsense. It is punishing players for things they have not done nor have any control over. Let me try to explain it in simple words. The high Price of plex in certain countries, in real money makes the unofficial transaction appealing. The high price of plex in game makes the offer of a plex for a reduced sum of real money more attractive. The high price of plex in game makes the desireability of Plex greater, encouraging more sales. Of both official and unofficial transactions RMT traders are competing directly with CCP and Official sellers for the sale of these Plex. Just do a quick google for legitimate sounding sites. Some are quite convincing, and how are they going to know? For example the official list shows only Amazon USA, what about those sold on Amazon UK and Amazon Germany? CCP are selling there, but apparently they are not an official supplier? (They are genuine). But they could just be someone using that name. For some, the prospect of a good deal outweighs common sense, especially if they do not know it is an unauthorised route, that may have consequences. Please GOD, LET YOU UNDERSTAND THAT! Please train reading comprehension to level 1. Yes, I get what you are saying, but to use that as an argument that PLEX prices in the game should be lowered is just nonsense. If player A has alot of ISK and decides to invest it in PLEX because it is a nice hedge against inflation and he doesn't have any other viable options at the moment...then motie one's idiotic idea of producing PLEX in game is for some idiotic reason implemented to...curb RL crime (Whisky Tango Foxtrot)...then that player is essentially suffering a loss due to RL crime he was in no way a party too. Nerfing good players who are not breaking in-game rules or even RL laws to get at some bad actors is dumb. Oh...and no, the high price of PLEX in terms of ISK has an ambiguous effect on PLEX sales in RL. While the high value in terms of ISK would lead to an increase in sales, the higher value means a player may only have to sell 1 or 2 whereas before he might have sold 3 or 4.
Ok, I understand that attempting to reason is not going to work, I am sorry if I have embarrassed you and things have gone over your head. I really didn't know. Fly safe, enjoy, the game. |
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3465
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 19:39:31 -
[971] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:motie one wrote:The high Price of plex in certain countries, in real money makes the unofficial transaction appealing. Could you describe the scenario in which this happens? Include all prices and exchange rates please.
I think he means high relative to income. Frankly I think this part of his narrative is useless as it is likely trivial.
However, that some people might try to use credit card fraud to obtain PLEX and then sell them for RL money might be a thing. v0v
I haven't seen any numbers, so I can't say. And I doubt motie has either. Right now he is grasping at straws to try and save is completely nonsensical suggestion that players be allowed to make PLEX in game.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3465
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 22:32:07 -
[972] - Quote
As an economist I find the complaints about higher PLEX prices discouraging people from keeping their accounts subbed perplexing.
To make some of the numbers simple, assume the RL cost of a PLEX is $20.
Assume that at some point back in time our average player "paid" 10 hours of grinding to afford his PLEX via ISK. Now, the cost is 20 hours for the same PLEX. Further, assume the average player has income of $20/hour.
What I find perplexing is this...1 hour or RL work would be enough to buy that PLEX. If the cost of paying for a sub via credit card is $15 you could trade 0.75 hours of RL work for the same 30 days.
From standard plain old vanilla neo-classical economics the labor-leisure trade off implies that a person is indifferent between an extra hour leisure or the additional $20 of income from working. This implies that leisure has a value of $20/hour.
Here is the problem: the 10 hours has an implicit value of $200 whereas the 20 hours has an implicit value of $400.
Based on this...playing 20 hours over the month yields $400 of leisure time! You should be happy!
The only way this makes sense is if grinding for ISK type of play comes with a decreasing marginal rate of substitution. That is the more you grind the less enjoyment you get out of it and after a certain point there are other things you'd rather spend your leisure time doing.
Soooo...switch over and pay cash, you'll only have to work an extra 0.75 hours for the cost of a sub and you can have 9.25 hours in Eve were you wont have to be grinding (nearly as much at any rate)...which presumably would provide an even higher level of utility (enjoyment).
Thus, I find the claims that lowering the PLEX price somehow will bring back players completely and totally unconvincing, generally speaking. The OP given his circumstances may have a fixed income which could put a hard constraint on switching over to paying his subs with cash difficult if not impossible. However, I don't think the bulk of the Eve population falls into that category.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
motie one
Secret Passage
44
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 23:01:53 -
[973] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:As an economist I find the complaints about higher PLEX prices discouraging people from keeping their accounts subbed perplexing.
To make some of the numbers simple, assume the RL cost of a PLEX is $20.
Assume that at some point back in time our average player "paid" 10 hours of grinding to afford his PLEX via ISK. Now, the cost is 20 hours for the same PLEX. Further, assume the average player has income of $20/hour.
What I find perplexing is this...1 hour or RL work would be enough to buy that PLEX. If the cost of paying for a sub via credit card is $15 you could trade 0.75 hours of RL work for the same 30 days.
From standard plain old vanilla neo-classical economics the labor-leisure trade off implies that a person is indifferent between an extra hour leisure or the additional $20 of income from working. This implies that leisure has a value of $20/hour.
Here is the problem: the 10 hours has an implicit value of $200 whereas the 20 hours has an implicit value of $400.
Based on this...playing 20 hours over the month yields $400 of leisure time! You should be happy!
The only way this makes sense is if grinding for ISK type of play comes with a decreasing marginal rate of substitution. That is the more you grind the less enjoyment you get out of it and after a certain point there are other things you'd rather spend your leisure time doing.
Soooo...switch over and pay cash, you'll only have to work an extra 0.75 hours for the cost of a sub and you can have 9.25 hours in Eve were you wont have to be grinding (nearly as much at any rate)...which presumably would provide an even higher level of utility (enjoyment).
Thus, I find the claims that lowering the PLEX price somehow will bring back players completely and totally unconvincing, generally speaking. The OP given his circumstances may have a fixed income which could put a hard constraint on switching over to paying his subs with cash difficult if not impossible. However, I don't think the bulk of the Eve population falls into that category.
I have desperately struggled not to answer, but please, for the good of the world, do not turn your Armchair economics hobby into a profession. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3465
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 00:48:04 -
[974] - Quote
motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:As an economist I find the complaints about higher PLEX prices discouraging people from keeping their accounts subbed perplexing.
To make some of the numbers simple, assume the RL cost of a PLEX is $20.
Assume that at some point back in time our average player "paid" 10 hours of grinding to afford his PLEX via ISK. Now, the cost is 20 hours for the same PLEX. Further, assume the average player has income of $20/hour.
What I find perplexing is this...1 hour or RL work would be enough to buy that PLEX. If the cost of paying for a sub via credit card is $15 you could trade 0.75 hours of RL work for the same 30 days.
From standard plain old vanilla neo-classical economics the labor-leisure trade off implies that a person is indifferent between an extra hour leisure or the additional $20 of income from working. This implies that leisure has a value of $20/hour.
Here is the problem: the 10 hours has an implicit value of $200 whereas the 20 hours has an implicit value of $400.
Based on this...playing 20 hours over the month yields $400 of leisure time! You should be happy!
The only way this makes sense is if grinding for ISK type of play comes with a decreasing marginal rate of substitution. That is the more you grind the less enjoyment you get out of it and after a certain point there are other things you'd rather spend your leisure time doing.
Soooo...switch over and pay cash, you'll only have to work an extra 0.75 hours for the cost of a sub and you can have 9.25 hours in Eve were you wont have to be grinding (nearly as much at any rate)...which presumably would provide an even higher level of utility (enjoyment).
Thus, I find the claims that lowering the PLEX price somehow will bring back players completely and totally unconvincing, generally speaking. The OP given his circumstances may have a fixed income which could put a hard constraint on switching over to paying his subs with cash difficult if not impossible. However, I don't think the bulk of the Eve population falls into that category. I have desperately struggled not to answer, but please, for the good of the world, do not turn your Armchair economics hobby into a profession.
Coming from you that is the highest of praise. Considering you get everything exactly backwards.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5387
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 01:04:40 -
[975] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:As an economist I find the complaints about higher PLEX prices discouraging people from keeping their accounts subbed perplexing.
To make some of the numbers simple, assume the RL cost of a PLEX is $20.
Assume that at some point back in time our average player "paid" 10 hours of grinding to afford his PLEX via ISK. Now, the cost is 20 hours for the same PLEX. Further, assume the average player has income of $20/hour.
What I find perplexing is this...1 hour or RL work would be enough to buy that PLEX. If the cost of paying for a sub via credit card is $15 you could trade 0.75 hours of RL work for the same 30 days.
From standard plain old vanilla neo-classical economics the labor-leisure trade off implies that a person is indifferent between an extra hour leisure or the additional $20 of income from working. This implies that leisure has a value of $20/hour.
Here is the problem: the 10 hours has an implicit value of $200 whereas the 20 hours has an implicit value of $400.
Based on this...playing 20 hours over the month yields $400 of leisure time! You should be happy!
The only way this makes sense is if grinding for ISK type of play comes with a decreasing marginal rate of substitution. That is the more you grind the less enjoyment you get out of it and after a certain point there are other things you'd rather spend your leisure time doing.
Soooo...switch over and pay cash, you'll only have to work an extra 0.75 hours for the cost of a sub and you can have 9.25 hours in Eve were you wont have to be grinding (nearly as much at any rate)...which presumably would provide an even higher level of utility (enjoyment).
Thus, I find the claims that lowering the PLEX price somehow will bring back players completely and totally unconvincing, generally speaking. The OP given his circumstances may have a fixed income which could put a hard constraint on switching over to paying his subs with cash difficult if not impossible. However, I don't think the bulk of the Eve population falls into that category.
Two problems with this analysis (under your assumption that someone has a job paying USD 20 an hour; probably a fair assumption for many EVE players)
- Most people would *much* rather be doing something 'grindy' in EVE than at work - Most jobs do not scale as easily as that. Some do, but most people don't control how many hours they work.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3465
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 01:27:46 -
[976] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Two problems with this analysis (under your assumption that someone has a job paying USD 20 an hour; probably a fair assumption for many EVE players)
- Most people would *much* rather be doing something 'grindy' in EVE than at work - Most jobs do not scale as easily as that. Some do, but most people don't control how many hours they work.
Then why complain when they have more grinding as PLEX prices go up? Rejoice, you get to do something you apparently like? Personally, I think that assumption/view is wrong. That after a certain point the "fun" of grinding is not as much fun as doing something else like reading, going to a movie, fishing, going to the bar with some friends, going golfing, etc.
The point about working for an extra hour or 0.75 hours or whatever is that a much smaller fraction of your time can be used to pay for your sub. Or to put it differently if you are grinding 20 hours for a $20 it implies an hourly wage of about $1. Granted to some extent grinding can be fun, but I'd argue that the fun factor declines the more you do it.
As for the assumptions about pay, it was just to make the numbers a bit easier to see the logic--i.e. it was a simplifying assumption, but converting everything to variables and relying on some basic algebra would not really change the conclusions, IMO.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
motie one
Secret Passage
45
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 09:38:06 -
[977] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:motie one wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:As an economist I find the complaints about higher PLEX prices discouraging people from keeping their accounts subbed perplexing.
To make some of the numbers simple, assume the RL cost of a PLEX is $20.
Assume that at some point back in time our average player "paid" 10 hours of grinding to afford his PLEX via ISK. Now, the cost is 20 hours for the same PLEX. Further, assume the average player has income of $20/hour.
What I find perplexing is this...1 hour or RL work would be enough to buy that PLEX. If the cost of paying for a sub via credit card is $15 you could trade 0.75 hours of RL work for the same 30 days.
From standard plain old vanilla neo-classical economics the labor-leisure trade off implies that a person is indifferent between an extra hour leisure or the additional $20 of income from working. This implies that leisure has a value of $20/hour.
Here is the problem: the 10 hours has an implicit value of $200 whereas the 20 hours has an implicit value of $400.
Based on this...playing 20 hours over the month yields $400 of leisure time! You should be happy!
The only way this makes sense is if grinding for ISK type of play comes with a decreasing marginal rate of substitution. That is the more you grind the less enjoyment you get out of it and after a certain point there are other things you'd rather spend your leisure time doing.
Soooo...switch over and pay cash, you'll only have to work an extra 0.75 hours for the cost of a sub and you can have 9.25 hours in Eve were you wont have to be grinding (nearly as much at any rate)...which presumably would provide an even higher level of utility (enjoyment).
Thus, I find the claims that lowering the PLEX price somehow will bring back players completely and totally unconvincing, generally speaking. The OP given his circumstances may have a fixed income which could put a hard constraint on switching over to paying his subs with cash difficult if not impossible. However, I don't think the bulk of the Eve population falls into that category. I have desperately struggled not to answer, but please, for the good of the world, do not turn your Armchair economics hobby into a profession. Coming from you that is the highest of praise. Considering you get everything exactly backwards.
My response, is no different than if I was a doctor, who witnessed a well meaning amateur, (whilst claiming to be a Doctor) making a wildly inaccurate diagnosis, and recommending a positively harmful treatment. One would feel a responsibility to point such a matter out before gullible "patients" ended up damaged by it. Please add a disclaimer to your claims to be an economist, explaining that you read a few books, and find the subject fun. Thank you, this will enable readers to assign the proper value to your speculations, and note that throwing in a few parroted phrases, and from post to post, dropping in a couple of famous names does not suddenly give your efforts credibility.
Of course, this is a game, you are free to imagine any career you wish. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1244
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 10:47:58 -
[978] - Quote
motie one wrote:My response, is no different than if I was a doctor Quick, run, before he puts the leeches on you! |
Aoife Fraoch
Rabble Inc.
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 11:06:33 -
[979] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:My response, is no different than if I was a doctor Quick, run, before he puts the leeches on you!
Leeches implies that at least once, his level of knowledge was considered adequate. Perhaps 'run before he gets out his crystals'? Though I hope motie doesn't stop, this is comedy gold. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1244
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 11:15:16 -
[980] - Quote
Aoife Fraoch wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:My response, is no different than if I was a doctor Quick, run, before he puts the leeches on you! Leeches implies that at least once, his level of knowledge was considered adequate. Perhaps 'run before he gets out his crystals'? Though I hope motie doesn't stop, this is comedy gold. Maybe striking him repeatedly with a willow branch will cure him of this malady? |
|
Aoife Fraoch
Rabble Inc.
144
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 11:25:18 -
[981] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Aoife Fraoch wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:My response, is no different than if I was a doctor Quick, run, before he puts the leeches on you! Leeches implies that at least once, his level of knowledge was considered adequate. Perhaps 'run before he gets out his crystals'? Though I hope motie doesn't stop, this is comedy gold. Maybe striking him repeatedly with a willow branch will cure him of this malady?
And if not trepanning is still an option. |
motie one
Secret Passage
45
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 11:39:37 -
[982] - Quote
Of course, we will never see how many trusting Patients, are left "sick broken husks." That's the problem with People Pretending to be Doctors, or in this case Economists. There is always someone who falls for a credible sounding imposter.
Ah well, shame to pop someone's illusions. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1244
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 13:19:50 -
[983] - Quote
The PLEX sale has ended. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1244
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 15:09:14 -
[984] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
The combination of the CCP intervention at the end of last week and the ongoing PLEX sale appears to be having some effect. We've seen this before though and it will only be temporary.
I've already called the current stable price of plex at ~1.1B and I expect to see that rise to ~1.2B once these downward pressures have passed. It will be interesting to see if it falls bellow 1.1B this week, it will be a buying opportunity if it does. 1,129 Sell / 1,104 Buy atm PLEX sale still going strong. Looking good to dip bellow 1.1B during the next few days. As with all previous PLEX sales, the price will bounce back up as soon as the sale is over, so when it goes below 1.1B you should be buying ready to cash in post sale. 1,110 Sell / 1,080 Buy atm PLEX sale still going. Buy, buy, buy! 1,112 Sell / 1,096 Buy atm 1,144 Sell / 1,135 Buy atm
PLEX sale over. Last chance to buy low.
I'm personally switching back from flipping to speculating now. |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
81
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 18:24:12 -
[985] - Quote
motie one wrote:Of course, we will never see how many trusting Patients, are left "sick broken husks." That's the problem with People Pretending to be Doctors, or in this case Economists. There is always someone who falls for a credible sounding imposter.
Ah well, shame to pop someone's illusions but it's for the best.
What are your qualifications? |
motie one
Secret Passage
46
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 20:40:03 -
[986] - Quote
Bound by an binding NDA. So not able to provide more details, let's just say, In the financial sector, but my name is public, so can't say any more. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3468
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 20:43:57 -
[987] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
The combination of the CCP intervention at the end of last week and the ongoing PLEX sale appears to be having some effect. We've seen this before though and it will only be temporary.
I've already called the current stable price of plex at ~1.1B and I expect to see that rise to ~1.2B once these downward pressures have passed. It will be interesting to see if it falls bellow 1.1B this week, it will be a buying opportunity if it does. 1,129 Sell / 1,104 Buy atm PLEX sale still going strong. Looking good to dip bellow 1.1B during the next few days. As with all previous PLEX sales, the price will bounce back up as soon as the sale is over, so when it goes below 1.1B you should be buying ready to cash in post sale. 1,110 Sell / 1,080 Buy atm PLEX sale still going. Buy, buy, buy! 1,112 Sell / 1,096 Buy atm 1,144 Sell / 1,135 Buy atm PLEX sale over. Last chance to buy low. I'm personally switching back from flipping to speculating now.
And prices are rebounding. What a shock.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 22:31:30 -
[988] - Quote
Gadolf Agalder wrote:... I have to go buy a 1.89 GHz (instead of the required 2.0 Ghz) computer for $89 which will let me run the EVE Market with reduced graphic settings to speed up performance.
I also forgot to verify if I could have sold the PLEx to a buyer 2 jumps away from the station they were offered at because, I have the trade skills to do it. Most likely though, for PLEx , they would have required to be sold in the Station making the offer to buy itself, and the range set at Station.
Just because I have the skills to sell in Region doesn't mean that it's not possible for those posting and paying for Buy Order offers to make it impossible for me to sell at a distance...
Uploads: (All 3) http://imgur.com/a/kPCld
http://imgur.com/hyn1YPd 2015.10.04.16.47.26p Sell Items (1) - Jita IV Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant 30 Day Pilot's Licen... 2 1145009000.99 2,290,018,001.98) ISK -0.6% [Immediate V] 129/129 remaining market orders Broker's fee (0.0%) 0.00 ISK Sales tax (0.75%) 17,175,135.01 ISK 2,272,842,866.97 ISK
http://imgur.com/YvXtPJA 2015.10.04.16.47.38p Sell Items (1) - Jita IV Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant 30 Day Pilot's Licen... 1 1,145,004,000.00 ISK -0.6% [Immediate V] 129/129 remaining market orders Broker's fee (0.0%) 0.00 ISK Sales tax (0.75%) 8,587,530.00 ISK 1,136,416,470.00 ISK
http://imgur.com/PjQdiS1 2015.10.04.16.47.47p Wallet Balance 9,488,411,315 ISK
I got a 2.4 GHz + something Dual Core system with 1.85 GB usable RAM of 2.00 GB Ram. Also, it is apparently compatible with Battlestar Galactica Online.
Edit: 1.1, - 1.143 sale Rens, - 1.158 Jita buy: 1.158 x 2 1.129 Jita 1.128, + 1.127 , + 1.125 |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
81
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 23:09:23 -
[989] - Quote
Gadolf Agalder wrote:Gadolf Agalder wrote:... I have to go buy a 1.89 GHz (instead of the required 2.0 Ghz) computer for $89 which will let me run the EVE Market with reduced graphic settings to speed up performance.
I also forgot to verify if I could have sold the PLEx to a buyer 2 jumps away from the station they were offered at because, I have the trade skills to do it. Most likely though, for PLEx , they would have required to be sold in the Station making the offer to buy itself, and the range set at Station. Just because I have the skills to sell in Region doesn't mean that it's not possible for those posting and paying for Buy Order offers to make it impossible for me to sell at a distance... Uploads: (All 3) http://imgur.com/a/kPCld http://imgur.com/hyn1YPd 2015.10.04.16.47.26p Sell Items (1) - Jita IV Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant 30 Day Pilot's Licen... 2 1145009000.99 2,290,018,001.98) ISK -0.6% [Immediate V] 129/129 remaining market orders Broker's fee (0.0%) 0.00 ISK Sales tax (0.75%) 17,175,135.01 ISK 2,272,842,866.97 ISK http://imgur.com/YvXtPJA 2015.10.04.16.47.38p Sell Items (1) - Jita IV Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant 30 Day Pilot's Licen... 1 1,145,004,000.00 ISK -0.6% [Immediate V] 129/129 remaining market orders Broker's fee (0.0%) 0.00 ISK Sales tax (0.75%) 8,587,530.00 ISK 1,136,416,470.00 ISK http://imgur.com/PjQdiS1 2015.10.04.16.47.47p Wallet Balance 9,488,411,315 ISK I got a 2.4 GHz + something Dual Core system with 1.85 GB usable RAM of 2.00 GB Ram. Also, it is apparently compatible with Battlestar Galactica Online. Edit:1.1, - 1.143 sale Rens, - 1.158 Jita buy:1.158 x 2 1.129 Jita 1.128, + 1.127 , + 1.125 Edit 2:I have to go to a library to cancel a book holding which I don't need since I found the version I needed on Amazon for around $20. However, if I don't go there (20 km away) , I will have to pay a $1 fine for not picking up the hold.
I have zero idea of what to make on any of this |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1247
|
Posted - 2015.10.06 02:07:29 -
[990] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:I have zero idea of what to make on any of this I think we have more than one candidate for the willow branch treatment tbh. |
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1247
|
Posted - 2015.10.06 02:29:06 -
[991] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:plex is dropping down hard it seems, wonder if the speculators are trying to get out somewhat and taking their profits, before they get caught holding Overvalued stock? The PLEX price clearly overshot. Some people are dumping stocks, some people are taking advantage of the high price to purchase PLEX (-ú/$/etc) and convert to ISK and we may even be seeing a CCP intervention (for possibly the first time this year). I expect it to fall back to ~1.1B and then resume it's climb. 1,154 Sell / 1,138 Buy atm
Yeah, I didn't think my predictions were controversial. But some people seemed to think it was the beginning of the end.
Lockefox called it the same as I did, but with less words and more graphs.
Delonewolf said he'd invest half of his wealth if it fell below 1B, but I didn't see a fall of that magnitude being likely.
I'm happy to have picked up six month's supply of PLEX for my alt army at a reduced price. Maybe we'll see another spike that will warrant me cashing these in, but I'm inclined to think I'll just be using them. Shame I didn't have the time or liquidity to invest another 100B or so, but the PLEX sale was over pretty quick. The period of instability made for some nice flipping profits, but the margin and volume have now shrunk back to more normal levels.
|
Ishmael D'ren
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.06 03:16:19 -
[992] - Quote
Bought in at 1.091Bn for the most part. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3468
|
Posted - 2015.10.06 04:29:15 -
[993] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:plex is dropping down hard it seems, wonder if the speculators are trying to get out somewhat and taking their profits, before they get caught holding Overvalued stock? The PLEX price clearly overshot. Some people are dumping stocks, some people are taking advantage of the high price to purchase PLEX (-ú/$/etc) and convert to ISK and we may even be seeing a CCP intervention (for possibly the first time this year). I expect it to fall back to ~1.1B and then resume it's climb. 1,154 Sell / 1,138 Buy atm Yeah, I didn't think my predictions were controversial. But some people seemed to think it was the beginning of the end. Lockefox called it the same as I did, but with less words and more graphs. Delonewolf said he'd invest half of his wealth if it fell below 1B, but I didn't see a fall of that magnitude being likely. I'm happy to have picked up six month's supply of PLEX for my alt army at a reduced price. Maybe we'll see another spike that will warrant me cashing these in, but I'm inclined to think I'll just be using them. Shame I didn't have the time or liquidity to invest another 100B or so, but the PLEX sale was over pretty quick. The period of instability made for some nice flipping profits, but the margin and volume have now shrunk back to more normal levels.
What, what about me?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1249
|
Posted - 2015.10.06 04:40:22 -
[994] - Quote
You're quite capable of doing your own smugging, I don't have to do it for you :) |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3468
|
Posted - 2015.10.06 15:33:30 -
[995] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:You're quite capable of doing your own smugging, I don't have to do it for you :)
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 00:53:30 -
[996] - Quote
back up to 1.176 m ISK as posted around 21st August or mid- August with first spikes occurring around August 26 at over 1.1m ISK.
+ Forgot to mention, until October (and I will now add , perhaps or early November).
I speculate that it will go back down below 940m ISK, as it was before the raise in value mid August.
I also speculate that it will go back up to over 1.1m ISK. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3473
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 04:08:44 -
[997] - Quote
Lieu Thiesant wrote:back up to 1.176 m ISK as posted around 21st August or mid- August with first spikes occurring around August 26 at over 1.1m ISK.
+ Forgot to mention, until October (and I will now add , perhaps or early November).
I speculate that it will go back down below 940m ISK, as it was before the raise in value mid August.
I also speculate that it will go back up to over 1.1m ISK.
So much for the bursting bubble theory.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dextrome Thorphan
Intrepid Crossing
135
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 09:06:49 -
[998] - Quote
Lieu Thiesant wrote:back up to 1.176 m ISK as posted around 21st August or mid- August with first spikes occurring around August 26 at over 1.1m ISK.
+ Forgot to mention, until October (and I will now add , perhaps or early November).
I speculate that it will go back down below 940m ISK, as it was before the raise in value mid August.
I also speculate that it will go back up to over 1.1m ISK.
I speculate that your speculations are bullshit |
Aoife Fraoch
Rabble Inc.
148
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 22:59:59 -
[999] - Quote
Lieu Thiesant wrote:back up to 1.176 m ISK as posted around 21st August or mid- August with first spikes occurring around August 26 at over 1.1m ISK.
+ Forgot to mention, until October (and I will now add , perhaps or early November).
I speculate that it will go back down below 940m ISK, as it was before the raise in value mid August.
I also speculate that it will go back up to over 1.1m ISK.
Sorry but that price is just not going to stabilise at the same level it was before unless something dramatic happens. Once you strip out the in year seasonality, it just goes up. |
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.10 08:59:19 -
[1000] - Quote
Aoife Fraoch wrote:Lieu Thiesant wrote:back up to 1.176 m ISK as posted around 21st August or mid- August with first spikes occurring around August 26 at over 1.1m ISK.
+ Forgot to mention, until October (and I will now add , perhaps or early November).
I speculate that it will go back down below 940m ISK, as it was before the raise in value mid August.
I also speculate that it will go back up to over 1.1m ISK. Sorry but that price is just not going to stabilise at the same level it was before unless something dramatic happens. Once you strip out the in year seasonality, it just goes up. It will not stabilize but it will go back down and it will go back up again. |
|
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 01:04:10 -
[1001] - Quote
Dextrome Thorphan wrote:Lieu Thiesant wrote:back up to 1.176 m ISK as posted around 21st August or mid- August with first spikes occurring around August 26 at over 1.1m ISK.
+ Forgot to mention, until October (and I will now add , perhaps or early November).
I speculate that it will go back down below 940m ISK, as it was before the raise in value mid August.
I also speculate that it will go back up to over 1.1m ISK. I speculate that your speculations are bullshit I was right about the first speculation back in mid-August or before and I even measured the level and degree of precision of the exactitude to which I was right.
It could get more scientific with a little bit more administrated funding.
So far , I am still right, at least until around mid-October to the end of October...
I can verify the originally published speculation from Mid-August, it is still on the forum to make it possible to verify. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3473
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 02:31:07 -
[1002] - Quote
Lieu Thiesant wrote:Dextrome Thorphan wrote:Lieu Thiesant wrote:back up to 1.176 m ISK as posted around 21st August or mid- August with first spikes occurring around August 26 at over 1.1m ISK.
+ Forgot to mention, until October (and I will now add , perhaps or early November).
I speculate that it will go back down below 940m ISK, as it was before the raise in value mid August.
I also speculate that it will go back up to over 1.1m ISK. I speculate that your speculations are bullshit I was right about the first speculation back in mid-August or before and I even measured the level and degree of precision of the exactitude to which I was right. It could get more scientific with a little bit more administrated funding. So far , I am still right, at least until around mid-October to the end of October... I can verify the originally published speculation from Mid-August, it is still on the forum to make it possible to verify.
HFS, 1 for 3!!!!
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 02:41:00 -
[1003] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:HFS, 1 for 3!!!!
I got 2 out of 3 right, the last one being either until mid October to around the end of October.
Let me check. |
Aoife Fraoch
Rabble Inc.
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 09:27:50 -
[1004] - Quote
Lieu Thiesant wrote:Aoife Fraoch wrote:Lieu Thiesant wrote:back up to 1.176 m ISK as posted around 21st August or mid- August with first spikes occurring around August 26 at over 1.1m ISK.
+ Forgot to mention, until October (and I will now add , perhaps or early November).
I speculate that it will go back down below 940m ISK, as it was before the raise in value mid August.
I also speculate that it will go back up to over 1.1m ISK. Sorry but that price is just not going to stabilise at the same level it was before unless something dramatic happens. Once you strip out the in year seasonality, it just goes up. It will not stabilize but it will go back down and it will go back up again.
The funny thing about the plex market is that it appears, like most things here, to be a time series with multiple seasonal effects; in week and yearly. (at least when you look at daily data).
Now take that data, adjust for 7 and 365.25 cycles (have a look at tbats) and once you get the seasonal effects out you'll notice there is an upwards trend.
Where it gets interesting is with rapid changes, such as what we saw just recently. However once this noise settles, it'll return to that gentle upwards slope with a slower rate of change and some seasonal patterns.
(the data is pretty messy and frankly I would hate to try and make any serious predictions on it). |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 01:54:08 -
[1005] - Quote
Aoife Fraoch wrote:Lieu Thiesant wrote:Aoife Fraoch wrote:Lieu Thiesant wrote:back up to 1.176 m ISK as posted around 21st August or mid- August with first spikes occurring around August 26 at over 1.1m ISK.
+ Forgot to mention, until October (and I will now add , perhaps or early November).
I speculate that it will go back down below 940m ISK, as it was before the raise in value mid August.
I also speculate that it will go back up to over 1.1m ISK. Sorry but that price is just not going to stabilise at the same level it was before unless something dramatic happens. Once you strip out the in year seasonality, it just goes up. It will not stabilize but it will go back down and it will go back up again. The funny thing about the plex market is that it appears, like most things here, to be a time series with multiple seasonal effects; in week and yearly. (at least when you look at daily data). Now take that data, adjust for 7 and 365.25 cycles (have a look at tbats) and once you get the seasonal effects out you'll notice there is an upwards trend. Where it gets interesting is with rapid changes, such as what we saw just recently. However once this noise settles, it'll return to that gentle upwards slope with a slower rate of change and some seasonal patterns. (the data is pretty messy and frankly I would hate to try and make any serious predictions on it). Sure but when you will see the trend change with predictions made to the same trend continuing (regardless of factors affecting the actual outcomes) there will be those taking advantage of the losses. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3475
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 03:16:33 -
[1006] - Quote
There is little to no seasonality in the PLEX price time series. I have downloaded the data and checked for both monthly and weekly seasonality and found none.
As for bubbles and the trend in PLEX prices....
As for bubbles, here is the thing about them...they are very, very hard to predict.
Lets suppose that some guy named Bob had found a way to predict perfectly when a bubble was about to burst. Bob would then sell short at the peak and then buy when prices dropped dramatically making a killing. How often Bob do this? Maybe 2-4 times then everyone would know...watch Bob. As soon as Bob starts selling short....oh ****. Get out!!! Bob, to try and maintain his profit margin might sell a bit earlier...but then so would everyone else. And this logic would repeat itself all the way back to the point that the bubble started to form.
Predicting bubbles and their peak is not possible. Of course some people appear to have gotten it "right" by consistently going against the consensus, but so what? Doing that means that eventually be right, but the vast majority of the time you'll be wrong. People who then think such prognosticators are some sort of genius simply help assure why bubbles are so hard to predict.
Is the current PLEX price a bubble? I don't know. Maybe. I doubt it, but then again nobody really knows.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 03:29:38 -
[1007] - Quote
pretty much yes...
And the same player driven market may have decided to bring it down for the first year.
There were zero certainty on that.
The whole scheme was just purely speculation with no way to know for sure in advance.
It was pure luck , and the factors affecting the outcome may have changed without notice.
However, it was true.
This does not mean that I had ways to change the market on my end.
It was only a prediction which did happen to materialize in the same time frame as calculated by approximation.
I had only a very small sample of the data required that affect the actual outcome and no way to change it on my end. |
Aoife Fraoch
Rabble Inc.
151
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 12:42:54 -
[1008] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:There is little to no seasonality in the PLEX price time series. I have downloaded the data and checked for both monthly and weekly seasonality and found none.
As for bubbles and the trend in PLEX prices....
As for bubbles, here is the thing about them...they are very, very hard to predict.
Lets suppose that some guy named Bob had found a way to predict perfectly when a bubble was about to burst. Bob would then sell short at the peak and then buy when prices dropped dramatically making a killing. How often could Bob do this? Maybe 2-4 times then everyone would know...watch Bob. As soon as Bob starts selling short....oh ****. Get out!!! Bob, to try and maintain his profit margin might sell a bit earlier...but then so would everyone else. And this logic would repeat itself all the way back to the point that the bubble started to form.
Predicting bubbles and their peak is not possible. Of course some people appear to have gotten it "right" by consistently going against the consensus, but so what? Doing that means that eventually you'd be right, but the vast majority of the time you'll be wrong. People who then think such prognosticators are some sort of genius simply help assure why bubbles are so hard to predict.
Is the current PLEX price a bubble? I don't know. Maybe. I doubt it, but then again nobody really knows.
There does seem to be yearly seasonality and a general upwards trend. Thanks for posting your data as well, I had a bit of a look at it. I have been meaning to do more with timeseries and it was fun playing with the forecast library.
http://rpubs.com/randomGraphs/117046 |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3478
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 18:30:37 -
[1009] - Quote
Aoife Fraoch wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:There is little to no seasonality in the PLEX price time series. I have downloaded the data and checked for both monthly and weekly seasonality and found none.
As for bubbles and the trend in PLEX prices....
As for bubbles, here is the thing about them...they are very, very hard to predict.
Lets suppose that some guy named Bob had found a way to predict perfectly when a bubble was about to burst. Bob would then sell short at the peak and then buy when prices dropped dramatically making a killing. How often could Bob do this? Maybe 2-4 times then everyone would know...watch Bob. As soon as Bob starts selling short....oh ****. Get out!!! Bob, to try and maintain his profit margin might sell a bit earlier...but then so would everyone else. And this logic would repeat itself all the way back to the point that the bubble started to form.
Predicting bubbles and their peak is not possible. Of course some people appear to have gotten it "right" by consistently going against the consensus, but so what? Doing that means that eventually you'd be right, but the vast majority of the time you'll be wrong. People who then think such prognosticators are some sort of genius simply help assure why bubbles are so hard to predict.
Is the current PLEX price a bubble? I don't know. Maybe. I doubt it, but then again nobody really knows. There does seem to be yearly seasonality and a general upwards trend. Thanks for posting your data as well, I had a bit of a look at it. I have been meaning to do more with timeseries and it was fun playing with the forecast library. http://rpubs.com/randomGraphs/117046
How many models did you fit? That just seems odd. One year high the next low. I could buy something more like a traditional seasonal patter what with school/summer etc. But a year over year fluctuation....?
And did you try including some sort of autoregressive error term? Looking at the remainder graph and your Durbin-Watson statistic (although I don't have access to my texts with the tables for the Durbin-Watson tables) might want to consider adding in an autoregressive error term.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Oinola Akachi
State War Academy Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 17:28:33 -
[1010] - Quote
10 to 20% of not much is not much compared to 40% to 60% or more profit.
However, 10 to 20% of 1 billion is 100m to 200m per transaction , in liquid in game ISK with no other risks except bans in error.
Even 60% of 10,000 ISK is only 6,000 ISK and therefore it would take many more transaction in volume to equal the 200m or 100m to 1 b ISK profit for 5 PLEx. |
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Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 23:54:15 -
[1011] - Quote
1.223 b ISK in Jita 1.220 1.215 2.214 |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3548
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:37:33 -
[1012] - Quote
So much for the bursting bubble theory. Guess whathisface is too bummed to post.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Aoife Fraoch
Rabble Inc.
154
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 09:34:51 -
[1013] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Aoife Fraoch wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:There is little to no seasonality in the PLEX price time series. I have downloaded the data and checked for both monthly and weekly seasonality and found none.
As for bubbles and the trend in PLEX prices....
As for bubbles, here is the thing about them...they are very, very hard to predict.
Lets suppose that some guy named Bob had found a way to predict perfectly when a bubble was about to burst. Bob would then sell short at the peak and then buy when prices dropped dramatically making a killing. How often could Bob do this? Maybe 2-4 times then everyone would know...watch Bob. As soon as Bob starts selling short....oh ****. Get out!!! Bob, to try and maintain his profit margin might sell a bit earlier...but then so would everyone else. And this logic would repeat itself all the way back to the point that the bubble started to form.
Predicting bubbles and their peak is not possible. Of course some people appear to have gotten it "right" by consistently going against the consensus, but so what? Doing that means that eventually you'd be right, but the vast majority of the time you'll be wrong. People who then think such prognosticators are some sort of genius simply help assure why bubbles are so hard to predict.
Is the current PLEX price a bubble? I don't know. Maybe. I doubt it, but then again nobody really knows. There does seem to be yearly seasonality and a general upwards trend. Thanks for posting your data as well, I had a bit of a look at it. I have been meaning to do more with timeseries and it was fun playing with the forecast library. http://rpubs.com/randomGraphs/117046 How many models did you fit? That just seems odd. One year high the next low. I could buy something more like a traditional seasonal patter what with school/summer etc. But a year over year fluctuation....? And did you try including some sort of autoregressive error term? Looking at the remainder graph and your Durbin-Watson statistic (although I don't have access to my texts with the tables for the Durbin-Watson tables) might want to consider adding in an autoregressive error term.
Sorry for the delay, irl has been a little unfriendly of late. Nothing serious, just time and energy consuming.
Frankly this was just something I threw together because it looked interesting, and it did seem that when you have daily data, with some of the trending that is bound to happen around games, you would get some weird cycles turning up and there would not be just one pattern.
Personally I am templed to say that the last year has been weird and has not behaved like the previous ones. And even just mentioning being able to buy sp with plex will continue to make it odd.
The first time serious decomposition I did was using the stl function (using loess) with the seasonal window of "periodic" it takes the mean instead of smoothing per a supplied lag. The function can take a number of other parametres like a trend window and so on. I used this with a number of stated seasonal periods as well (7 and 365.25), but thats in the code.
The tbats function from the forecast library is an interesting one. For one thing it has an insanely long name (TBATS model (Exponential smoothing state space model with Box-Cox transformation, ARMA errors, Trend and Seasonal components)).
The options I had used were seasonal periods for both 7 and 365.25 on daily data with box.cox to true. If this was null then it would have used selected if they were to be used based on AIC.
trend and damped trend were not selected explicitly though damped was used. I should have included this in the original output:
> PlexAverage.tbats$parameters $vect [1] 1.246931e-06 8.484456e-01 8.181487e-01 -4.206490e-02 -6.835356e-07 [6] -3.498706e-04 -4.151820e-04 6.235535e-05
$control $control$use.beta [1] TRUE
$control$use.box.cox [1] TRUE
$control$use.damping [1] TRUE
$control$length.gamma [1] 4
$control$p [1] 0
$control$q [1] 0
arama.errors was set true and used and fitted by AIC.
hope this answers your questions, its worth just looking at it yourself. I am relatively new to working with time series data anyway. |
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:28:48 -
[1014] - Quote
Lieu Thiesant wrote:#1007 - 2015-10-16 23:54:15 UTC | 1.223 b ISK in Jita 1.220 1.215 1.214 To 1.227 1.225 1.224 1.221 All 1.22 |
Adunh Slavy
1624
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 02:25:56 -
[1015] - Quote
Inflation manifests rather strongly in PLEX, don't it.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
716
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 09:28:01 -
[1016] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Inflation manifests rather strongly in PLEX, don't it.
Why buy for 1.25 when others will sell for 1.15?
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 22:39:04 -
[1017] - Quote
Back down to 1.20b ISK and 1.9b ISK. Now back down to 1.17b ISK plus 1.76, 1.74, 1.73 and 1.71... The depreciated deflation is what I mentioned.
Again right. Again, as some other said it would not go back down but would only go up.
Mind you, it is still above 1.1b ISK. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
717
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 23:36:25 -
[1018] - Quote
20% PLEX sale causes PLEX prices to drop, and now we to go live to Lieu Thiesant who is on the scene. How's the weather, Lieu?
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 23:43:29 -
[1019] - Quote
Actually , I have to go to sleep and don't have time to login. I'm still fixing some errors for the last 2 weeks and had to borrow funds to solve it. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3588
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 20:16:27 -
[1020] - Quote
Lieu Thiesant wrote:Back down to 1.20b ISK and 1.9b ISK. Now back down to 1.17b ISK plus 1.76, 1.74, 1.73 and 1.71... The depreciated deflation is what I mentioned.
Again right. Again, as some other said it would not go back down but would only go up.
Mind you, it is still above 1.1b ISK.
And the upward trend will continue once the sale ends.
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Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 21:46:59 -
[1021] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:And the upward trend will continue once the sale ends. There's nothing stopping it.
On the other hand, companies amongst other things like to overcharge and always do so at the most critical moments.
Just now, during the PLEx sale, I was again overcharged for no less then $770 which limits my PLEx trading capacity. Of course, they may fix it before the sale end, but that always leaves some bad emotions and interferes against the optimum flow.
And yes, there are other cases very similar which add to the problems and diminish my legitimate profits and potential profits.
To 1.61 and 1.55...
eve-marketdata.com : http://eve-marketdata.com/price_check.php?step=Show&type_id=29668®ion_id=&solarsystem_id=&type=history (link code probably won't work...)
http://imgur.com/a/GrHWe
http://imgur.com/VYPOwQU 1-1w (in green) Down last week. 1.215 to 1.125
http://imgur.com/hxuSyVu 2-1m (in yellow) 1.095 to 1.22 over 1month
http://imgur.com/dQsSPBo 3-3m (in blue) 960m ISK to 1.22 last. I thought it went up to over 1.21 before, up to 1.29. However, I cannot see it in this graph.
http://imgur.com/pOXEgNQ 4-6m (in yellow ochre) 1.2+ doesn't show anymore over 6 months spread. The graph exactitude level accuracy ratio reduces.
http://imgur.com/YyaYyzh 5-1y (in purple) Last Year's Results: 800m ISK to 780m ISK. Up to 900m 1st and 2nd quarter. Up to 950m ISK in the last quarters. to 1.95 b ISK average in the last month. So, over the 1.1b ISK predicted minimum increase. Time period was targeted from end of August, Sept. 5, to October, 2015.
You can deduce the percent ratio and put them in pie charts from those numbers. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3589
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 04:39:17 -
[1022] - Quote
Lieu Thiesant wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And the upward trend will continue once the sale ends. There's nothing stopping it. On the other hand, companies amongst other things like to overcharge and always do so at the most critical moments. Just now, during the PLEx sale, I was again overcharged for no less then $770 which limits my PLEx trading capacity. Of course, they may fix it before the sale end, but that always leaves some bad emotions and interferes against the optimum flow. And yes, there are other cases very similar which add to the problems and diminish my legitimate profits and potential profits. To 1.61 and 1.55... eve-marketdata.com : http://eve-marketdata.com/price_check.php?step=Show&type_id=29668®ion_id=&solarsystem_id=&type=history (link code probably won't work...) http://imgur.com/a/GrHWe http://imgur.com/VYPOwQU 1-1w (in green) Down last week. 1.215 to 1.125 http://imgur.com/hxuSyVu 2-1m (in yellow) 1.095 to 1.22 over 1month http://imgur.com/dQsSPBo 3-3m (in blue) 960m ISK to 1.22 last. I thought it went up to over 1.21 before, up to 1.29. However, I cannot see it in this graph. http://imgur.com/pOXEgNQ 4-6m (in yellow ochre) 1.2+ doesn't show anymore over 6 months spread. The graph exactitude level accuracy ratio reduces. http://imgur.com/YyaYyzh 5-1y (in purple) Last Year's Results: 800m ISK to 780m ISK. Up to 900m 1st and 2nd quarter. Up to 950m ISK in the last quarters. to 1.95 b ISK average in the last month. So, over the 1.1b ISK predicted minimum increase. Time period was targeted from end of August, Sept. 5, to October, 2015. You can deduce the percent ratio and put them in pie charts from those numbers.
Whatever, a sale will reduce the OOG suppply function; which will increase in game supply and thereby decrease the in game price.
Once this sale ends the price will start it's upward trend again.
I don't care what you write this will be the case.
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Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 18:24:11 -
[1023] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Whatever, a sale will reduce the OOG suppply function; which will increase in game supply and thereby decrease the in game price.
Once this sale ends the price will start it's upward trend again.
I don't care what you write this will be the case.
Once the upward trrend reach levels which are higher than normal or, that are higher than the player base or factors influencing it's behavior would normally affect it, then, the upward trend will diminish. Or at least, it could.
It may go back up again, after it diminishes. It is possible that it went higher than before and by a higher percentage this time around.
It's behavior may still change and there is not enough brick and mortar to dictate it's outcome as a rigid stable trend.
There are other possible outcomes.
I will calculate the percentages at which the rates were affected. It will give insight into the past and present trends.
However, it will not guarantee any valid future speculations. It may make it easier, but that is besides the point.
It could go back up, but by how much, and when, and for how long? Also, what will be the percent of profit for current or pre-planned investments? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3589
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 02:24:24 -
[1024] - Quote
Gadolf Agalder wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Whatever, a sale will reduce the OOG suppply function; which will increase in game supply and thereby decrease the in game price.
Once this sale ends the price will start it's upward trend again.
I don't care what you write this will be the case. Once the upward trrend reach levels which are higher than normal or, that are higher than the player base or factors influencing it's behavior would normally affect it, then, the upward trend will diminish. Or at least, it could. It may go back up again, after it diminishes. It is possible that it went higher than before and by a higher percentage this time around. It's behavior may still change and there is not enough brick and mortar to dictate it's outcome as a rigid stable trend. There are other possible outcomes. I will calculate the percentages at which the rates were affected. It will give insight into the past and present trends. However, it will not guarantee any valid future speculations. It may make it easier, but that is besides the point. It could go back up, but by how much, and when, and for how long? Also, what will be the percent of profit for current or pre-planned investments? Edit:There is also an error in the last graph stating 1.95 b ISK when it would clearly be 1.095 b ISK. 1.29 b ISK being the highest level recorded...
What is "higher than normal"? PLEX prices have been trending generally upward for the better part of a 6 years. And as CCP links PLEX to more and more things the price will only go up.
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Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 23:52:34 -
[1025] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:What is "higher than normal"? PLEX prices have been trending generally upward for the better part of a 6 years. And as CCP links PLEX to more and more things the price will only go up.
Well yes, that is the whole point really. I will calculate the percentages at which they raised to compare with the previous percentages. There are also other factors which can be included as time evolves because more factors are added. It is not generally bad, in fact, it can also increase the rate at which PLEx will raise. That is, the rate which is connected with the actual PLEx value increase, or upward trend changes. |
Nine Axis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 07:07:09 -
[1026] - Quote
Left Eve when plex was about 650-800 mil. Come back to find it at 1.2 bil.
Looked at sale history and it appears to stem from market forces and inflation.
Hasn't the number of players gone down in the last year or two? Could someone familiar with Economics explain what effects a reducing playerbase should have on the plex market specifically? |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
696
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 11:44:32 -
[1027] - Quote
Nine Axis wrote:Left Eve when plex was about 650-800 mil. Come back to find it at 1.2 bil.
Looked at sale history and it appears to stem from market forces and inflation.
Hasn't the number of players gone down in the last year or two? Could someone familiar with Economics explain what effects a reducing playerbase should have on the plex market specifically?
The Eve Economy report said we were deflationary, very this past year. Plex is detached from normal market forces for obvious reasons.
As the player number declines there is less competition for asset generation between players, which means more people can make more isk. The generalization is that the longer you have played the more likely you are to be "invested" in this game. These "invested" players tend to be the ones who plex their account, or to an extreme plex their way to fanfest.
As the player number declines so theoretically does the new player influx. New players tended to be the ones who would buy plex for isk injection early in their careers. There is now less of them and they were a source of plex supply for the in game market.
The capital and sov changes have discouraged many players from buying, building or holding super capitals and other large investment items. These players before might have been a source of plex as they would need massive isk injections to complete their purchase/build.
The player number declining puts a lot of players into deflation. Common wisdom is if you have tons of liquid isk, convert it to plex before you unsub so when you come back you will have both plex and a "hedge" against possible inflation (Eve has almost never had inflation, but plex has always inflated, so you get double bonus doing this).
So basically, in a general way, those are the reasons.
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
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Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5441
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 13:21:24 -
[1028] - Quote
It's my belief that some of the people holding large numbers of PLEX will divest in a slow and controlled manner over the next 6 months. No price shocks, but a trend downward.
Liquid ISK just got more valuable with the Citadels devblog details. PLEX did not change.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 02:33:47 -
[1029] - Quote
Less players can mean less demand, but that is only true to a certain certainty ratio. One reason for the certainty ratio related to the player number is, that number of players can increase. If the player number increase, the PLEx demand may increase.
Some of the points raised about why there are less players , how it's harder for them, why new players find it harder, are good. I would like to go over them as a walkthrough. However, I rather start a new thread about PLEx Prices speculation and profit ratio including the percent of change. This thread may better be left to discuss the PLEx Prices, rather than include more PLEx profit percentages and their related time frames (ROI, etc).
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3600
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 18:08:56 -
[1030] - Quote
Nine Axis wrote:Left Eve when plex was about 650-800 mil. Come back to find it at 1.2 bil.
Looked at sale history and it appears to stem from market forces and inflation.
Hasn't the number of players gone down in the last year or two? Could someone familiar with Economics explain what effects a reducing playerbase should have on the plex market specifically?
Okay, so if you have fewer people buying PLEX OOG it would look like this in terms of supply and demand.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dx8n2gwvngpober/supply-demand3.png?dl=0
Basically, an inward shift of the demand curve. I have drawn the supply curve as horizontal because it has a very low actual marginal cost--i.e. making another PLEX is very, very cheap for CCP since it is a digital item. Think about how easy it is to copy a digital file on your computer.
So, the supply of PLEX entering the game has gone from Q1 down to Q2. That leads to this picture in game of supply and demand.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jx24djmxvo6xeh5/supply-demand1.png?dl=0
In this picture the supply has shifted inwards meaning we move along the demand curve so that the price rises from P1 to P2.
So fewer players logging on can be quite consistent with higher PLEX prices not lower PLEX prices.
Now, you might say, isn't in game demand lower too? Yes, it may very well be which leads to this picture,
https://www.dropbox.com/s/10du4so2zsow7m2/supply-demand2.png?dl=0
Now demand has also shifted inwards bringing the price down from P3 to P2, but note P2 is still above the intial equilibrium price of P1.
It all depends on the slopes of the supply and demand equations, or more accurately the price elasticities of demandand supply.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3600
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 18:11:35 -
[1031] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Nine Axis wrote:Left Eve when plex was about 650-800 mil. Come back to find it at 1.2 bil.
Looked at sale history and it appears to stem from market forces and inflation.
Hasn't the number of players gone down in the last year or two? Could someone familiar with Economics explain what effects a reducing playerbase should have on the plex market specifically? The Eve Economy report said we were deflationary, very this past year. Plex is detached from normal market forces for obvious reasons. As the player number declines there is less competition for asset generation between players, which means more people can make more isk. The generalization is that the longer you have played the more likely you are to be "invested" in this game. These "invested" players tend to be the ones who plex their account, or to an extreme plex their way to fanfest. As the player number declines so theoretically does the new player influx. New players tended to be the ones who would buy plex for isk injection early in their careers. There is now less of them and they were a source of plex supply for the in game market. The capital and sov changes have discouraged many players from buying, building or holding super capitals and other large investment items. These players before might have been a source of plex as they would need massive isk injections to complete their purchase/build. The player number declining puts a lot of players into deflation. Common wisdom is if you have tons of liquid isk, convert it to plex before you unsub so when you come back you will have both plex and a "hedge" against possible inflation (Eve has almost never had inflation, but plex has always inflated, so you get double bonus doing this). So basically, in a general way, those are the reasons.
Which report would that be?
The latest thing I could find from CCP was this report,
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/mineral-trade-in-the-wake-of-the-battle-of-b-r5rb-price-indices-february-2014/?_ga=1.229708572.1433230448.1425016084
Which is a bit sloppy, IMO.
The battle of B-R was clearly an outlier, and should have been dummied out, but it looks like they are calculating a trend from B-R. So, I take as my starting point and outlier, calculate the trend as the market returns back to where it was prior to the outlier and OMG, a deflationary trend. Uhhmmm, no. Bad, statistics, bad. Don't make me rub your nose in it.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
696
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 19:07:31 -
[1032] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Nine Axis wrote:Left Eve when plex was about 650-800 mil. Come back to find it at 1.2 bil.
Looked at sale history and it appears to stem from market forces and inflation.
Hasn't the number of players gone down in the last year or two? Could someone familiar with Economics explain what effects a reducing playerbase should have on the plex market specifically? The Eve Economy report said we were deflationary, very this past year. Plex is detached from normal market forces for obvious reasons. As the player number declines there is less competition for asset generation between players, which means more people can make more isk. The generalization is that the longer you have played the more likely you are to be "invested" in this game. These "invested" players tend to be the ones who plex their account, or to an extreme plex their way to fanfest. As the player number declines so theoretically does the new player influx. New players tended to be the ones who would buy plex for isk injection early in their careers. There is now less of them and they were a source of plex supply for the in game market. The capital and sov changes have discouraged many players from buying, building or holding super capitals and other large investment items. These players before might have been a source of plex as they would need massive isk injections to complete their purchase/build. The player number declining puts a lot of players into deflation. Common wisdom is if you have tons of liquid isk, convert it to plex before you unsub so when you come back you will have both plex and a "hedge" against possible inflation (Eve has almost never had inflation, but plex has always inflated, so you get double bonus doing this). So basically, in a general way, those are the reasons. Which report would that be? The latest thing I could find from CCP was this report, http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/mineral-trade-in-the-wake-of-the-battle-of-b-r5rb-price-indices-february-2014/?_ga=1.229708572.1433230448.1425016084 Which is a bit sloppy, IMO. The battle of B-R was clearly an outlier, and should have been dummied out, but it looks like they are calculating a trend from B-R. So, I take as my starting point and outlier, calculate the trend as the market returns back to where it was prior to the outlier and OMG, a deflationary trend. Uhhmmm, no. Bad, statistics, bad. Don't make me rub your nose in it. BTW, your first and second paragraph are somewhat at odds, claiming deflation then noting that there is less competition. Less competition usually means higher prices not lower prices.
Sorry, it was at Eve Vegas. It will be released next weekish and Quant promised us that he was going to start doing monthly economic reporting.
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
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Tom Hagen
Aliastra Gallente Federation
159
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 20:43:13 -
[1033] - Quote
"The player number declining puts a lot of players into deflation. Common wisdom is if you have tons of liquid isk, convert it to plex before you unsub so when you come back you will have both plex and a "hedge" against possible inflation (Eve has almost never had inflation, but plex has always inflated, so you get double bonus doing this)."
Market McSelling Alt
I do believe this is a bigger problem than most people realize. IF expensive PLEX is a problem that is.. I might have one or two PLEX stored away, and I didn't sell any when I logged off for almost 2 years. Judging others from my self I would say there is a huge number of PLEX on inactive accounts.
I have been back for a few months, but I haven't sold any, where should I put the ISK? |
Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 20:51:17 -
[1034] - Quote
Wouldn't it be a good idea to increase the player base instead?
I was going to post in another thread about this, but due to hardware control interference, I am posting it here until I can fix this.
But it is safe to say that newer and even perhaps some more seasoned veterans overlooked the scope of the condition. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3603
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 04:53:15 -
[1035] - Quote
Well, with a decrease in players logged into the game it is possible that the demand has shifted inwards which would result in a price decrease. However, for deflation to become an ongoing problem the money supply would also need to shrink. While fewer players might mean that the the money supply is not growing by the same amount of ISK, it wouldn't mean it is shrinking.
Of course, without an actual banking industry to keep money in people's wallets still in economy, when players go inactive that could in effect be a type of ISK sink. That could cause the money supply to shrink leading to ongoing deflation.
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Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 14:30:44 -
[1036] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Well, with a decrease in players logged into the game it is possible that the demand has shifted inwards which would result in a price decrease. However, for deflation to become an ongoing problem the money supply would also need to shrink. While fewer players might mean that the the money supply is not growing by the same amount of ISK, it wouldn't mean it is shrinking.
Of course, without an actual banking industry to keep money in people's wallets still in economy, when players go inactive that could in effect be a type of ISK sink. That could cause the money supply to shrink leading to ongoing deflation. I didn't know the PLEx offer was 1,200+ in volume... |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
697
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 17:10:01 -
[1037] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Well, with a decrease in players logged into the game it is possible that the demand has shifted inwards which would result in a price decrease. However, for deflation to become an ongoing problem the money supply would also need to shrink. While fewer players might mean that the the money supply is not growing by the same amount of ISK, it wouldn't mean it is shrinking.
Of course, without an actual banking industry to keep money in people's wallets still in economy, when players go inactive that could in effect be a type of ISK sink. That could cause the money supply to shrink leading to ongoing deflation.
Real Economic and Eve Economic are not the same.
Isk supply doesn't matter as much in Eve for regular things, the old economist and the new economic reporting show that supply of items are the driving force behind prices of goods.
Plex market is a whole different animal than the rest of the Eve Economy.
Basically, because people are building more efficiently, and in greater amounts, resources used less for super capitals, and drop modules and bpcs are on the rise from increased 0.0 and WH pve, we get declines in prices.
Isk supply has always been high, and half of all isk is currently in circulation according to CCP Quant.
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3603
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 17:55:29 -
[1038] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Well, with a decrease in players logged into the game it is possible that the demand has shifted inwards which would result in a price decrease. However, for deflation to become an ongoing problem the money supply would also need to shrink. While fewer players might mean that the the money supply is not growing by the same amount of ISK, it wouldn't mean it is shrinking.
Of course, without an actual banking industry to keep money in people's wallets still in economy, when players go inactive that could in effect be a type of ISK sink. That could cause the money supply to shrink leading to ongoing deflation. Real Economic and Eve Economic are not the same. Isk supply doesn't matter as much in Eve for regular things, the old economist and the new economic reporting show that supply of items are the driving force behind prices of goods. Plex market is a whole different animal than the rest of the Eve Economy. Basically, because people are building more efficiently, and in greater amounts, resources used less for super capitals, and drop modules and bpcs are on the rise from increased 0.0 and WH pve, we get declines in prices. Isk supply has always been high, and half of all isk is currently in circulation according to CCP Quant.
Actually, yes there is a surprising amount of carry over. And yeah, the money supply is a factor. And no, I've done a pretty standard supply and demand analysis that shows why prices can go up even with fewer players.
People always say this, then write things that contradictory like. There is less competition so prices are falling...which is exactly the opposite one would expect. Less competition means less supply on the market. Less supply means higher prices.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
697
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 18:55:35 -
[1039] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Well, with a decrease in players logged into the game it is possible that the demand has shifted inwards which would result in a price decrease. However, for deflation to become an ongoing problem the money supply would also need to shrink. While fewer players might mean that the the money supply is not growing by the same amount of ISK, it wouldn't mean it is shrinking.
Of course, without an actual banking industry to keep money in people's wallets still in economy, when players go inactive that could in effect be a type of ISK sink. That could cause the money supply to shrink leading to ongoing deflation. Real Economic and Eve Economic are not the same. Isk supply doesn't matter as much in Eve for regular things, the old economist and the new economic reporting show that supply of items are the driving force behind prices of goods. Plex market is a whole different animal than the rest of the Eve Economy. Basically, because people are building more efficiently, and in greater amounts, resources used less for super capitals, and drop modules and bpcs are on the rise from increased 0.0 and WH pve, we get declines in prices. Isk supply has always been high, and half of all isk is currently in circulation according to CCP Quant. Actually, yes there is a surprising amount of carry over. And yeah, the money supply is a factor. And no, I've done a pretty standard supply and demand analysis that shows why prices can go up even with fewer players. People always say this, then write things that contradictory like. There is less competition so prices are falling...which is exactly the opposite one would expect. Less competition means less supply on the market. Less supply means higher prices.
Point to the part of my post where I mention "Competition"
The truth is, this economy in game is not like the real world in that material supply has been the sole primary driver of inflation/deflation.
The only thing that has ever caused inflation in the market was changes made by CCP to the build costs and introductions of game design changes. Eve has almost always been deflationary since they started keeping track.
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3603
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 19:04:05 -
[1040] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Well, with a decrease in players logged into the game it is possible that the demand has shifted inwards which would result in a price decrease. However, for deflation to become an ongoing problem the money supply would also need to shrink. While fewer players might mean that the the money supply is not growing by the same amount of ISK, it wouldn't mean it is shrinking.
Of course, without an actual banking industry to keep money in people's wallets still in economy, when players go inactive that could in effect be a type of ISK sink. That could cause the money supply to shrink leading to ongoing deflation. Real Economic and Eve Economic are not the same. Isk supply doesn't matter as much in Eve for regular things, the old economist and the new economic reporting show that supply of items are the driving force behind prices of goods. Plex market is a whole different animal than the rest of the Eve Economy. Basically, because people are building more efficiently, and in greater amounts, resources used less for super capitals, and drop modules and bpcs are on the rise from increased 0.0 and WH pve, we get declines in prices. Isk supply has always been high, and half of all isk is currently in circulation according to CCP Quant. Actually, yes there is a surprising amount of carry over. And yeah, the money supply is a factor. And no, I've done a pretty standard supply and demand analysis that shows why prices can go up even with fewer players. People always say this, then write things that contradictory like. There is less competition so prices are falling...which is exactly the opposite one would expect. Less competition means less supply on the market. Less supply means higher prices. Point to the part of my post where I mention "Competition" The truth is, this economy in game is not like the real world in that material supply has been the sole primary driver of inflation/deflation. The only thing that has ever caused inflation in the market was changes made by CCP to the build costs and introductions of game design changes. Eve has almost always been deflationary since they started keeping track.
I was referencing this post of yours.
In particular this part,
Quote: The Eve Economy report said we were deflationary, very this past year. Plex is detached from normal market forces for obvious reasons.
As the player number declines there is less competition for asset generation between players, which means more people can make more isk. The generalization is that the longer you have played the more likely you are to be "invested" in this game. These "invested" players tend to be the ones who plex their account, or to an extreme plex their way to fanfest.
I highlighted the relevant parts. Deflationary implying prices are generally falling, and the part where you use the phrase, "less competition". That reads very much that you are saying prices are both falling and rising.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
697
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 19:28:39 -
[1041] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:
[quote] The Eve Economy report said we were deflationary, very this past year. Plex is detached from normal market forces for obvious reasons.
As the player number declines there is less competition for asset generation between players, which means more people can make more isk. The generalization is that the longer you have played the more likely you are to be "invested" in this game. These "invested" players tend to be the ones who plex their account, or to an extreme plex their way to fanfest.
I highlighted the relevant parts. Deflationary implying prices are generally falling, and the part where you use the phrase, "less competition". That reads very much that you are saying prices are both falling and rising.
You are referencing a post about PLEX, and the money supply does effect PLEX, as I have stated. I highlighted the part you couldn't read for yourself.
We were discussing how you think money supply has an effect on the economy of eve... which it has been shown for the last 12 years not to have been a factor in any measurable form.
But, you can continue to attribute posts about other things to this discussion if you would like. I find your lack of eve economic understanding amusing.
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3603
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 19:58:57 -
[1042] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:
[quote] The Eve Economy report said we were deflationary, very this past year. Plex is detached from normal market forces for obvious reasons.
As the player number declines there is less competition for asset generation between players, which means more people can make more isk. The generalization is that the longer you have played the more likely you are to be "invested" in this game. These "invested" players tend to be the ones who plex their account, or to an extreme plex their way to fanfest.
I highlighted the relevant parts. Deflationary implying prices are generally falling, and the part where you use the phrase, "less competition". That reads very much that you are saying prices are both falling and rising. You are referencing a post about PLEX, and the money supply does effect PLEX, as I have stated. I highlighted the part you couldn't read for yourself. We were discussing how you think money supply has an effect on the economy of eve... which it has been shown for the last 12 years not to have been a factor in any measurable form. But, you can continue to attribute posts about other things to this discussion if you would like. I find your lack of eve economic understanding amusing.
You were quite clearly discussing other goods in the game. The comment about deflation is about the price level in general. That part about reduced competition is also about in game assets. Again, I'll quote you, "As the player number declines there is less competition for asset generation between players, which means more people can make more isk."
You are quite clearly discussing means of generating ISK, not just PLEX. You have two contradictory statements. Prices going up, while prices are going down. Which is it?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3603
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 20:09:52 -
[1043] - Quote
Oh, and I guess Dr. EyjoG was an economic know-nothing as well,
Quote:"My recommendation to the development team to them is to think about sinks. How can you sink more stuff in terms of isk out of the economy? I do not see it as a threat to the economy at this point, but it is definitely something the development team should be thinking about in the upcoming release patch."--Dr. EyjoG ( 8:54 - 9:14 of the posted video)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3603
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 20:13:42 -
[1044] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
"As the player number declines there is less competition for asset generation between players, which means more people can make more isk. The generalization is that the longer you have played the more likely you are to be "invested" in this game. These "invested" players tend to be the ones who plex their account, or to an extreme plex their way to fanfest."
I was clearly talking about people making isk to buy plex... please train up reading comprehension to at least II
So what, I was pointing out you have two contradictory statements. You appear to be completely incapable of reconciling these two statements into a logical narrative.
Or let me put it this way, I know you were providing an explanation about people being able to buy PLEX (I don't care about this explanation, I consider it irrelevant). Inside that explanation was a statement suggesting prices are rising. You also noted that prices are generally declining as per CCP Quant. My point is you have inherently contradictory views and seem completely unaware of it.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3604
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 22:56:48 -
[1045] - Quote
Did CCP Quant define his notion of the money supply? I could see two possible definitions. First is the total supply of ISK in the gameGÇöi.e. all the ISK in all the wallets everywhere in the game. The second and possibly more useful, the amount of ISK in active accounts (including various GÇ£liveGÇ¥ corporate wallets). So noting that GÇ£50% of the money supply is in the economyGÇ¥ doesnGÇÖt tell us much. If it is the second, we still donGÇÖt know much, but if the number of active accounts is declining, then it is possible the money supply is declining, even though the amount of the money supply circulating remains roughly constant.
Edit: This article suggests it is the second definition.
Quote:"The most reliable measurement is to look at ISK on active accounts GÇô because there are a lot of accounts that are inactive and, as you will know, if you play EVE your stuff is always there even if you quit playing. Even though that ISK exists, we know that itGÇÖs not going to be used in-game so it doesnGÇÖt really count even though it could potentially return. So the measurement that we find most valuable to observe is ISK on active paying accounts, people playing the game and subscribed GÇô and that is at any given point between 6 and 700 trillion ISK. A lot of ISK!"--Dr. EyjoG
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Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5445
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 23:51:28 -
[1046] - Quote
I'm interested to see how much PLEX prices fall with the introduction of a considerable new ISK sink, the Citadel blueprints.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
34770
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 10:51:15 -
[1047] - Quote
Not much, I reckon. The XL things aren't going to be personal assets. 6b for medium isn't enough to dent serious industrial types, and the large and x-large prices make them corp/alliance assets as it is.
Then again, always count on stupid.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
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Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.11.08 20:56:53 -
[1048] - Quote
1.16b ISK to 1.173 - 2 |
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 00:51:56 -
[1049] - Quote
Up to (not down) 1.186,695 b ISK - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 - 0 |
Tangentoar
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 03:59:45 -
[1050] - Quote
I find this a most interesting topic. It is just more proof that CCP let's the market sort itself out. I trade the "real" market every morning, futures to be exact. It really is a simple concept; The price for PLEX will stop going higher when the amount of buyers exceed the sellers. When PLEX was at around 200-300 mil ISK if anyone can remember those days, I had multiple characters cranking out operations so I could fund my alts with PLEX because it made sense. I could mine a belt down or research my bpo's and then sell them for ISK then go buy PLEX so I didn't have to pay. This process really only took me a few days too do. I use to be a BUYER of PLEX from an eve market point of view. Now that the cost of plex is now over 1 billion, it doesn't make sense for me to fund my alts with PLEX and now I purchase it with real money so I can sell it on the market, because it makes more sense for me to do it this way now. If I still tried to make the ISK to buy the PLEX it would literally take me all month just to fund my alts and then I'm still "break even". I consider my time valuable as I'm sure most here do, but some consider money more valuable than time. Currently there are those that consider money more valuable their time so they purchase PLEX with ISK and until that sentiment changes I'm "bullish" on PLEX prices. |
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3634
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 04:18:54 -
[1051] - Quote
Tangentoar wrote:I find this a most interesting topic. It is just more proof that CCP let's the market sort itself out. I trade the "real" market every morning, futures to be exact. It really is a simple concept; The price for PLEX will stop going higher when the amount of buyers exceed the sellers. When PLEX was at around 200-300 mil ISK if anyone can remember those days, I had multiple characters cranking out operations so I could fund my alts with PLEX because it made sense. I could mine a belt down or research my bpo's and then sell them for ISK then go buy PLEX so I didn't have to pay. This process really only took me a few days too do. I use to be a BUYER of PLEX from an eve market point of view. Now that the cost of plex is now over 1 billion, it doesn't make sense for me to fund my alts with PLEX and now I purchase it with real money so I can sell it on the market, because it makes more sense for me to do it this way now. If I still tried to make the ISK to buy the PLEX it would literally take me all month just to fund my alts and then I'm still "break even". I consider my time valuable as I'm sure most here do, but some consider money more valuable than time. Currently there are those that consider money more valuable their time so they purchase PLEX with ISK and until that sentiment changes I'm "bullish" on PLEX prices.
That last part where some people consider money more valuable than their time...they are essentially putting a very low value on their time. For example, if they are taking 20 hours to afford a PLEX they are implicitly saying that their leisure time is worth less than $1/hour. Another implication of this is that they'd work for less than $1/hour too.
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Tangentoar
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 04:33:19 -
[1052] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Tangentoar wrote:I find this a most interesting topic. It is just more proof that CCP let's the market sort itself out. I trade the "real" market every morning, futures to be exact. It really is a simple concept; The price for PLEX will stop going higher when the amount of buyers exceed the sellers. When PLEX was at around 200-300 mil ISK if anyone can remember those days, I had multiple characters cranking out operations so I could fund my alts with PLEX because it made sense. I could mine a belt down or research my bpo's and then sell them for ISK then go buy PLEX so I didn't have to pay. This process really only took me a few days too do. I use to be a BUYER of PLEX from an eve market point of view. Now that the cost of plex is now over 1 billion, it doesn't make sense for me to fund my alts with PLEX and now I purchase it with real money so I can sell it on the market, because it makes more sense for me to do it this way now. If I still tried to make the ISK to buy the PLEX it would literally take me all month just to fund my alts and then I'm still "break even". I consider my time valuable as I'm sure most here do, but some consider money more valuable than time. Currently there are those that consider money more valuable their time so they purchase PLEX with ISK and until that sentiment changes I'm "bullish" on PLEX prices. That last part where some people consider money more valuable than their time...they are essentially putting a very low value on their time. For example, if they are taking 20 hours to afford a PLEX they are implicitly saying that their leisure time is worth less than $1/hour. Another implication of this is that they'd work for less than $1/hour too.
Exactly. I'm actually quite surprised the amount of time people put into this game trading, researching etc. now with PLEX as high as it is. Everything is either time or money to me, PLEX would have to seriously tank for me to go back to the old way of doing things because right now as you say, even at 100 mil ISK per hour income assuming that I don't take a break, it would take me 12 hours to buy a single PLEX with ISK. It would make more sense for me to work 2 extra hours at my theoretical low paying job of 10 dollars an hour and just buy a PLEX with real money instead. I've pretty much stopped manufacturing and doing BPO's because most people insist in this game that they don't want to make hardly any profit on the time they put in. That's fine with me, I'll let these guys work hours and hours making the product for a measly profit while I work a single extra hour at my Engineering Job and buy 4 PLEX when I get home. 6 Billion ISK for one hour of work aint too shabby. I never made that kind of ISK before. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3634
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 04:38:14 -
[1053] - Quote
Tangentoar wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Tangentoar wrote:I find this a most interesting topic. It is just more proof that CCP let's the market sort itself out. I trade the "real" market every morning, futures to be exact. It really is a simple concept; The price for PLEX will stop going higher when the amount of buyers exceed the sellers. When PLEX was at around 200-300 mil ISK if anyone can remember those days, I had multiple characters cranking out operations so I could fund my alts with PLEX because it made sense. I could mine a belt down or research my bpo's and then sell them for ISK then go buy PLEX so I didn't have to pay. This process really only took me a few days too do. I use to be a BUYER of PLEX from an eve market point of view. Now that the cost of plex is now over 1 billion, it doesn't make sense for me to fund my alts with PLEX and now I purchase it with real money so I can sell it on the market, because it makes more sense for me to do it this way now. If I still tried to make the ISK to buy the PLEX it would literally take me all month just to fund my alts and then I'm still "break even". I consider my time valuable as I'm sure most here do, but some consider money more valuable than time. Currently there are those that consider money more valuable their time so they purchase PLEX with ISK and until that sentiment changes I'm "bullish" on PLEX prices. That last part where some people consider money more valuable than their time...they are essentially putting a very low value on their time. For example, if they are taking 20 hours to afford a PLEX they are implicitly saying that their leisure time is worth less than $1/hour. Another implication of this is that they'd work for less than $1/hour too. Exactly. I'm actually quite surprised the amount of time people put into this game trading, researching etc. now with PLEX as high as it is. Everything is either time or money to me, PLEX would have to seriously tank for me to go back to the old way of doing things because right now as you say, even at 100 mil ISK per hour income assuming that I don't take a break, it would take me 12 hours to buy a single PLEX with ISK. It would make more sense for me to work 2 extra hours at my theoretical low paying job of 10 dollars an hour and just buy a PLEX with real money instead. I've pretty much stopped manufacturing and doing BPO's because most people insist in this game that they don't want to make hardly any profit on the time they put in. That's fine with me, I'll let these guys work hours and hours making the product for a measly profit while I work a single extra hour at my Engineering Job and buy 4 PLEX when I get home. 6 Billion ISK for one hour of work aint too shabby. I never made that kind of ISK before.
Exactly, I just pay for my account with a credit card and then spend a few hours in game to make ISK so I can have ships to go have fun in.
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Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 20:23:18 -
[1054] - Quote
I bought my first or second plex at 2.109b ISK or so. It was used to cover for this pilot 30 days of active time , and also forums posting period. screenshots |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3696
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:32:23 -
[1055] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Tangentoar wrote:I find this a most interesting topic. It is just more proof that CCP let's the market sort itself out. I trade the "real" market every morning, futures to be exact. It really is a simple concept; The price for PLEX will stop going higher when the amount of buyers exceed the sellers. When PLEX was at around 200-300 mil ISK if anyone can remember those days, I had multiple characters cranking out operations so I could fund my alts with PLEX because it made sense. I could mine a belt down or research my bpo's and then sell them for ISK then go buy PLEX so I didn't have to pay. This process really only took me a few days too do. I use to be a BUYER of PLEX from an eve market point of view. Now that the cost of plex is now over 1 billion, it doesn't make sense for me to fund my alts with PLEX and now I purchase it with real money so I can sell it on the market, because it makes more sense for me to do it this way now. If I still tried to make the ISK to buy the PLEX it would literally take me all month just to fund my alts and then I'm still "break even". I consider my time valuable as I'm sure most here do, but some consider money more valuable than time. Currently there are those that consider money more valuable their time so they purchase PLEX with ISK and until that sentiment changes I'm "bullish" on PLEX prices. That last part where some people consider money more valuable than their time...they are essentially putting a very low value on their time. For example, if they are taking 20 hours to afford a PLEX they are implicitly saying that their leisure time is worth less than $1/hour. Another implication of this is that they'd work for less than $1/hour too. Unless you have a personal goal of playing for free, and you get enjoyment out of accomplishing that goal. For some, making ISK is fun, especially if it means they can get that fun for zero cash.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3670
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:22:38 -
[1056] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Tangentoar wrote:I find this a most interesting topic. It is just more proof that CCP let's the market sort itself out. I trade the "real" market every morning, futures to be exact. It really is a simple concept; The price for PLEX will stop going higher when the amount of buyers exceed the sellers. When PLEX was at around 200-300 mil ISK if anyone can remember those days, I had multiple characters cranking out operations so I could fund my alts with PLEX because it made sense. I could mine a belt down or research my bpo's and then sell them for ISK then go buy PLEX so I didn't have to pay. This process really only took me a few days too do. I use to be a BUYER of PLEX from an eve market point of view. Now that the cost of plex is now over 1 billion, it doesn't make sense for me to fund my alts with PLEX and now I purchase it with real money so I can sell it on the market, because it makes more sense for me to do it this way now. If I still tried to make the ISK to buy the PLEX it would literally take me all month just to fund my alts and then I'm still "break even". I consider my time valuable as I'm sure most here do, but some consider money more valuable than time. Currently there are those that consider money more valuable their time so they purchase PLEX with ISK and until that sentiment changes I'm "bullish" on PLEX prices. That last part where some people consider money more valuable than their time...they are essentially putting a very low value on their time. For example, if they are taking 20 hours to afford a PLEX they are implicitly saying that their leisure time is worth less than $1/hour. Another implication of this is that they'd work for less than $1/hour too. Unless you have a personal goal of playing for free, and you get enjoyment out of accomplishing that goal. For some, making ISK is fun, especially if it means they can get that fun for zero cash.
No, it is not free. Opportunity cost and all that.
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Veraca Darmazaf
EVE University Ivy League
14
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 22:27:17 -
[1057] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Tangentoar wrote:I find this a most interesting topic. It is just more proof that CCP let's the market sort itself out. I trade the "real" market every morning, futures to be exact. It really is a simple concept; The price for PLEX will stop going higher when the amount of buyers exceed the sellers. When PLEX was at around 200-300 mil ISK if anyone can remember those days, I had multiple characters cranking out operations so I could fund my alts with PLEX because it made sense. I could mine a belt down or research my bpo's and then sell them for ISK then go buy PLEX so I didn't have to pay. This process really only took me a few days too do. I use to be a BUYER of PLEX from an eve market point of view. Now that the cost of plex is now over 1 billion, it doesn't make sense for me to fund my alts with PLEX and now I purchase it with real money so I can sell it on the market, because it makes more sense for me to do it this way now. If I still tried to make the ISK to buy the PLEX it would literally take me all month just to fund my alts and then I'm still "break even". I consider my time valuable as I'm sure most here do, but some consider money more valuable than time. Currently there are those that consider money more valuable their time so they purchase PLEX with ISK and until that sentiment changes I'm "bullish" on PLEX prices. That last part where some people consider money more valuable than their time...they are essentially putting a very low value on their time. For example, if they are taking 20 hours to afford a PLEX they are implicitly saying that their leisure time is worth less than $1/hour. Another implication of this is that they'd work for less than $1/hour too. Unless you have a personal goal of playing for free, and you get enjoyment out of accomplishing that goal. For some, making ISK is fun, especially if it means they can get that fun for zero cash. No, it is not free. Opportunity cost and all that. I believe his point was that if you enjoy doing whatever to earn ISK and have nothing else you would rather spend it on, it's not costing you any more than spending the same time on anything else in game you want to do. Either way your spending x hours on entertaining your self. |
Jinto Rinn
Stratton Oakmont Trading
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 13:22:51 -
[1058] - Quote
http://imgur.com/vNmvJkX
That buy order though |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 15:38:05 -
[1059] - Quote
I forgot if it went up to 1.209 or 1.29. It's now back up to 1.216 .
I started to work on the screenshots of my last purchase, but most of them are not finished.
Those above are the station listing prices near The Forge btw... (those wouldn't show up in The Citadel...)
http://imgur.com/s5w8Lx2 It took me 11 minutes and a few seconds to fly to Jita to trade the PLEx for activation using (4) Hours for PLEx. |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
1191
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 15:57:51 -
[1060] - Quote
I pay for my account(s) using real money, since I refuse to grind for Isk.
Sometimes I find a nice flow and make some, mainly by trading or buying/building/selling.
And sometimes I have a surplus of Isk and no obvious plan or scheme to invest in.
(As in to busy in KSP to really play the Eve market in earnest).
So I stash the surplus in Eve's version of governments bonds, aka plex.
Leaving isk stashed under the pillow (as in resting in j.random wallet) is a guaranteed loss over time.
And while a temporary crash in the plex market is possible, I do regard it as quite safe over time.
CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
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Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 17:20:51 -
[1061] - Quote
Lors Dornick wrote:I pay for my account(s) using real money, since I refuse to grind for Isk.
Sometimes I find a nice flow and make some, mainly by trading or buying/building/selling.
And sometimes I have a surplus of Isk and no obvious plan or scheme to invest in.
(As in to busy in KSP to really play the Eve market in earnest).
So I stash the surplus in Eve's version of governments bonds, aka plex.
Leaving isk stashed under the pillow (as in resting in j.random wallet) is a guaranteed loss over time.
And while a temporary crash in the plex market is possible, I do regard it as quite safe over time.
I paid for my account using real money, except that I had to buy time back with a PLEx because I ran out of money (laid off).
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6938
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 17:53:45 -
[1062] - Quote
Lors Dornick wrote:I pay for my account(s) using real money, since I refuse to grind for Isk.
Sometimes I find a nice flow and make some, mainly by trading or buying/building/selling.
And sometimes I have a surplus of Isk and no obvious plan or scheme to invest in.
(As in to busy in KSP to really play the Eve market in earnest).
So I stash the surplus in Eve's version of governments bonds, aka plex.
Leaving isk stashed under the pillow (as in resting in j.random wallet) is a guaranteed loss over time.
And while a temporary crash in the plex market is possible, I do regard it as quite safe over time.
I pay for my accounts in plex, since the act of playing for fun in itself generates me more than enough income to plex my accounts. I'd probably pay with cash if I had to put any effort outside of enjoying the game into it, but I don't see that happening any time soon.
But yeah, plex will always go up.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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N00B-SAIB0T
MK Financial
23
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 23:35:54 -
[1063] - Quote
Tangentoar wrote:I find this a most interesting topic. It is just more proof that CCP let's the market sort itself out. I trade the "real" market every morning, futures to be exact. It really is a simple concept; The price for PLEX will stop going higher when the amount of buyers exceed the sellers. When PLEX was at around 200-300 mil ISK if anyone can remember those days, I had multiple characters cranking out operations so I could fund my alts with PLEX because it made sense. I could mine a belt down or research my bpo's and then sell them for ISK then go buy PLEX so I didn't have to pay. This process really only took me a few days too do. I use to be a BUYER of PLEX from an eve market point of view. Now that the cost of plex is now over 1 billion, it doesn't make sense for me to fund my alts with PLEX and now I purchase it with real money so I can sell it on the market, because it makes more sense for me to do it this way now. If I still tried to make the ISK to buy the PLEX it would literally take me all month just to fund my alts and then I'm still "break even". I consider my time valuable as I'm sure most here do, but some consider money more valuable than time. Currently there are those that consider money more valuable their time so they purchase PLEX with ISK and until that sentiment changes I'm "bullish" on PLEX prices.
Ah yes, glad to see someone else remember when PLEX was 200-300 million. Looks like you and I have the same outlook on things.
I too back then grinded to play for free on two accounts but I didn't really value my time and wasn't in the best financial shape to pay IRL money. I remember either mining or mission running endlessly to fund two accounts a have a little left over, lol.
Fast forward to now- A LOT of free time and plenty of disposable IRL money and I make anywhere between 6 - 10 Billion ISK/month for what amounts to maybe an hour or less per day of effort. Yet... I refuse to pay using a PLEX. I pull out the credit card and buy 3 month chunks of subscription at a time instead.
Years ago I would drool at the thought of using all of this ISK to play for free, or make enough in IRL to not worry about paying the subscription. Maybe I've come to value the fun factor of earning/spending ISK in-game more than the value of IRL money needed to play the game.
Interesting how perspectives can change with time. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
742
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 00:49:05 -
[1064] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/MsTN3VX.png
PLEX prices are just out of control, CCP needs to do something.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
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Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
351
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 01:08:37 -
[1065] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:http://i.imgur.com/MsTN3VX.png
PLEX prices are just out of control, CCP needs to do something.
not sure if troll, im sort of fist pumping though. |
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 01:59:31 -
[1066] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Lors Dornick wrote:I pay for my account(s) using real money, since I refuse to grind for Isk.
Sometimes I find a nice flow and make some, mainly by trading or buying/building/selling.
... I pay for my accounts in plex, since the act of playing for fun in itself generates me more than enough income to plex my accounts. I'd probably pay with cash if I had to put any effort outside of enjoying the game into it, but I don't see that happening any time soon. But yeah, plex will always go up. PLEx went up since the beginning with the occasional low. If you really calculate by how much, you can deduce percentage of capital amount to arrive to reasonable figures. This can be used to profit from buying low and selling high. The only time this would change perhaps is when the PLEx system would change, for whatever reasons or factors.
I recently bought PLEx with real money from the EVE PLEx store. I usually use the ISK from selling the PLEx to fund my EVE time, because I always have higher costs than ingame income. I usually buy game time or get game time through the buddy program, and get a free PLEx for ISK or time. This last time around however, the PLEx went to over 1b ISK, and 1.1b and 1.2b ISK as predicted. I bought 6 PLEx for $100 and then, 5 more or so, while there was a PLEx sale (only 1 during the sale). I ended up with 13b ISK liquid, but not enough money or internet time. So , I bought a PLEx with ISK and activated my trader account with 7 days left, because I didn't know when I could log in. I therefore paid both with money and PLEx at the same time, by buying PLEx with money and selling PLEx for ISK, and by buying a PLEx with that ISK and selling it for game Time. |
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
351
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 02:28:09 -
[1067] - Quote
Gadolf Agalder wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Lors Dornick wrote:I pay for my account(s) using real money, since I refuse to grind for Isk.
Sometimes I find a nice flow and make some, mainly by trading or buying/building/selling.
... I pay for my accounts in plex, since the act of playing for fun in itself generates me more than enough income to plex my accounts. I'd probably pay with cash if I had to put any effort outside of enjoying the game into it, but I don't see that happening any time soon. But yeah, plex will always go up. PLEx went up since the beginning with the occasional low. If you really calculate by how much, you can deduce percentage of capital amount to arrive to reasonable figures. This can be used to profit from buying low and selling high. The only time this would change perhaps is when the PLEx system would change, for whatever reasons or factors. I recently bought PLEx with real money from the EVE PLEx store. I usually use the ISK from selling the PLEx to fund my EVE time, because I always have higher costs than ingame income. I usually buy game time or get game time through the buddy program, and get a free PLEx for ISK or time. This last time around however, the PLEx went to over 1b ISK, and 1.1b and 1.2b ISK as predicted. I bought 6 PLEx for $100 and then, 5 more or so, while there was a PLEx sale (only 1 during the sale). I ended up with 13b ISK liquid, but not enough money or internet time. So , I bought a PLEx with ISK and activated my trader account with 7 days left, because I didn't know when I could log in. I therefore paid both with money and PLEx at the same time, by buying PLEx with money and selling PLEx for ISK, and by buying a PLEx with that ISK and selling it for game Time.
i'll quit my job right now and work for you. |
Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 02:55:44 -
[1068] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Gadolf Agalder wrote:...So , I bought a PLEx with ISK and activated my trader account with 7 days left, because I didn't know when I could log in. I therefore paid both with money and PLEx at the same time, by buying PLEx with money and selling PLEx for ISK, and by buying a PLEx with that ISK and selling it for game Time. i'll quit my job right now and work for you. That's up to you but we could make more if you kept your job. That would make 4 coders and 1 more business person. I can't fathom that 1 billion ISK per year is a medium type of business. That figure has to be closer to 125b ISK to 250b ISK. (perhaps 250b ISK for a large business.) |
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
352
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 03:56:50 -
[1069] - Quote
Gadolf Agalder wrote:Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Gadolf Agalder wrote:...So , I bought a PLEx with ISK and activated my trader account with 7 days left, because I didn't know when I could log in. I therefore paid both with money and PLEx at the same time, by buying PLEx with money and selling PLEx for ISK, and by buying a PLEx with that ISK and selling it for game Time. i'll quit my job right now and work for you. That's up to you but we could make more if you kept your job. That would make 4 coders and 1 more business person. I can't fathom that 1 billion ISK per year is a medium type of business. That figure has to be closer to 125b ISK to 250b ISK. (perhaps 250b ISK for a large business.)
not rly a business person, more an analyst
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3697
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 03:57:23 -
[1070] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Elizabeth Norn wrote:http://i.imgur.com/MsTN3VX.png
PLEX prices are just out of control, CCP needs to do something. not sure if troll, im sort of fist pumping though.
Wondering if that is a screen shot from Serenity.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
1191
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 14:26:16 -
[1071] - Quote
Gadolf Agalder wrote: I paid for my account using real money, except that I had to buy time back with a PLEx because I ran out of money (laid off).
Been there, done that.
Which is another reason to store currently unused liquid ISK in PLEX ;)
CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
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Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
1191
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 14:37:36 -
[1072] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote: I pay for my accounts in plex, since the act of playing for fun in itself generates me more than enough income to plex my accounts. I'd probably pay with cash if I had to put any effort outside of enjoying the game into it, but I don't see that happening any time soon.
But yeah, plex will always go up.
My point was that I have enough ISK (esp if I sell my bonds/plexes) to easily generate enough profit to pay for my account(s).
(Money breeds money, a well trained monkey can generate an avg 5% profit, and with enough investment it'll generate the needed gain).
But I refuse to let a game rule my day.
Some days I love to dig into all the data, politics, scams, schemes and general mayhem that is Eve.
But some days I just can't be arsed to even open the client.
And when I have 'spare' ISK and can't arsed to play, I stash it in plex.
Until I catch the next wave of inspiration :)
CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
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Gadolf Agalder
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
22
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Posted - 2015.11.19 15:49:59 -
[1073] - Quote
"...So , I bought a PLEx with ISK and activated my trader account with 7 days left, because I didn't know when I could log in. I therefore paid both with money and PLEx at the same time, by buying PLEx with money and selling PLEx for ISK, and by buying a PLEx with that ISK and selling it for game Time."Jerry T Pepridge wrote:i'll quit my job right now and work for you. "That's up to you but we could make more if you kept your job. That would make 4 coders and 1 more business person. I can't fathom that 1 billion ISK per year is a medium type of business. That figure has to be closer to 125b ISK to 250b ISK. (perhaps 250b ISK for a large business.)"Jerry T Pepridge wrote:not rly a business person, more an analyst You learn something new every day... There's a rly good reason why most analysts are in business. Some , and many, are also working for government on official government business... Some advance in research... (btw, I didn't know that Research was used to improve BPO in EVE.)
Lors Dornick wrote:Gadolf Agalder wrote: I paid for my account using real money, except that I had to buy time back with a PLEx because I ran out of money (laid off).
Been there, done that. Which is another reason to store currently unused liquid ISK in PLEX ;) Well yes, I would have made more profit if I had kept at least 1 PLEx without transferring back and forth with taxes and loss of profit margin. This also does not take into account the fact that PLEx value go up, while the ISK value goes down compared to PLEx. However, at the time I traded the PLEx for ISK, I needed the ISK and never had 13b ISK before.
This also makes PLEx one of the best if not the best and most secure long term investment in all of the EVE Market (with discussions).
(There are too many quotes in the post but not enough quotes from my coders. I only got one valid quote so far, which is highly deplorable, although that one quote is darn good, especially compared to the others with no quotes... Most of the program management work ends up teaching coder how to negotiate with quotes... Up to 80% of the time to 99.99% of the time. Even a teacher gave me no quote, though I don't know what he teaches. Sadenning to be reduced to teach teacher, and I hope that he doesn't teach university, otherwise I know what to think, even they don't know...
Also the kind of thing an English speaking teacher would do, since it creates a nice expression of potential student not negotiating with quotes...) |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1264
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 06:27:48 -
[1074] - Quote
Will it hit 1.3B again before the PLEX sale? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3825
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 08:22:47 -
[1075] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Will it hit 1.3B again before the PLEX sale?
Wish I could short the market.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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N00B-SAIB0T
MK Financial
23
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Posted - 2015.11.25 20:12:00 -
[1076] - Quote
What is it with these PLEX sales? Do they have a PLEX sale every time PLEX tends to rise, in order to keep it down? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3828
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 21:44:55 -
[1077] - Quote
N00B-SAIB0T wrote:What is it with these PLEX sales? Do they have a PLEX sale every time PLEX tends to rise, in order to keep it down?
I doubt it. My guess they realized that dropping the PLEX price by a couple of bucks means they sell more and their costs are pretty much unaffected...so sales are good.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
89
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 22:18:20 -
[1078] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:N00B-SAIB0T wrote:What is it with these PLEX sales? Do they have a PLEX sale every time PLEX tends to rise, in order to keep it down? I doubt it. My guess they realized that dropping the PLEX price by a couple of bucks means they sell more and their costs are pretty much unaffected...so sales are good.
With the frequency that they have the PLEX sales, I wouldn't be surprised if people expect the cheaper prices and hold out for them. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3831
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 23:58:48 -
[1079] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:N00B-SAIB0T wrote:What is it with these PLEX sales? Do they have a PLEX sale every time PLEX tends to rise, in order to keep it down? I doubt it. My guess they realized that dropping the PLEX price by a couple of bucks means they sell more and their costs are pretty much unaffected...so sales are good. With the frequency that they have the PLEX sales, I wouldn't be surprised if people expect the cheaper prices and hold out for them.
Well a sale on Black Friday is not exactly unexpected.....
What is unexpected is that the in game price is actually still trending slightly upwards.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
381
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 01:21:28 -
[1080] - Quote
might be time i cashed out all that aurum ccp gave my accounts back in incarna
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRjlewkrwerl - spreadsheets :( |
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1264
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 11:02:42 -
[1081] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Well a sale on Black Friday is not exactly unexpected.....
What is unexpected is that the in game price is actually still trending slightly upwards. Why would you expect any different? People who are planning to buy PLEX for cash and then sell them for ISK are sensibly putting off that transaction until the Black Friday sale.
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Nero Farway
Selectivity
36
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 13:38:28 -
[1082] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Will it hit 1.3B again before the PLEX sale? Wish I could short the market.
Just take a loan in PLEX' and sell them, then rebuy them later to repay the loan. Shouldn't be a problem at all. A lot of people have have excess ISK in PLEX and do not use them anyway. Why not make some money with those PLEX? As long as you offer the collateral it's definitely possible. |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
59
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 17:47:37 -
[1083] - Quote
Nero Farway wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Will it hit 1.3B again before the PLEX sale? Wish I could short the market. Just take a loan in PLEX' and sell them, then rebuy them later to repay the loan. You can't short the market in EVE (who says outside?).
Offer others to take the loan in PLEx which you sell them. Then rebuy them (the loan in PLExes) later (from the party to get the loan) to repay the loan.
Don't minsinterpret it to get a loan in PLEx and then have to pay interest by paying the loan back in higher cost PLEx. (Although , I don't know , unless they deserve it ...) + Interest(s).
Nero Farway wrote:Shouldn't be a problem at all. A lot of people have have excess ISK in PLEX and do not use them anyway. In PLEx, citadel , POS and what not. Except that they don't use them anyway, so to use them in more specific ways later.
Nero Farway wrote: Why not make some money with those PLEX? As long as you offer the collateral it's definitely possible.
Those PLEx all made money, even when the PLEx value go down, they still make money in the overall trend.
I'll buy your collateral for definitely possible PLEx. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3836
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 18:03:03 -
[1084] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Well a sale on Black Friday is not exactly unexpected.....
What is unexpected is that the in game price is actually still trending slightly upwards. Why would you expect any different? People who are planning to buy PLEX for cash and then sell them for ISK are sensibly putting off that transaction until the Black Friday sale.
I know, but I also would have expected people buying PLEX for ISK to also back off...but maybe they aren't paying attention to stuff like PLEX sales.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Nero Farway
Selectivity
36
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 21:29:40 -
[1085] - Quote
Buzz Orti wrote: You can't short the market in EVE (who says outside?).
Offer others to take the loan in PLEx which you sell them. Then rebuy them (the loan in PLExes) later (from the party to get the loan) to repay the loan.
Don't minsinterpret it to get a loan in PLEx and then have to pay interest by paying the loan back in higher cost PLEx. (Although , I don't know , unless they deserve it ...) + Interest(s).
What you wrote confuses me a bit. You can short the market the same way you can do it in real life. Some hedge funds actually loan out their company shares to others so those others can sell them and later rebuy them in order to give them back. you can just do the same with PLEX. Of course there is a cost associated with that. Thats the interest you pay for the loan. say you ask for 100 PLEX and a 30 months duration and offer to give back 101 PLEX, then the 1 PLEX is the interest. If PLEX cost more or if they cost less when it's time to pay back, thats something no one knows, but thats how shorts generally work.
Buzz Orti wrote: In PLEx, citadel , POS and what not. Except that they don't use them anyway, so to use them in more specific ways later.
A bit confusing again. Of course people have different stuff that they are hoarding for whatever purposes. However, loaning them out does not mean they will not be available again at a later time. So when it's time to use them in "more specific ways", the loan duration could already be over. I don't expect anyone to give away stuff for longer than he can afford to do so.
Buzz Orti wrote:
Those PLEx all made money, even when the PLEx value go down, they still make money in the overall trend.
Most of them probably made money, yes. But that doesn't mean they cannot make money right now. An investor always tries to maximize his return. Plus, if you are in it for the long run, it doesn't matter if they rise or fall in the small term and it's even better if you can earn an extra plex by lending out a few.
Buzz Orti wrote: I'll buy your collateral for definitely possible PLEx.
Now I may not be a native English speaker but I am sure I am not the only one who doesn't know what that means. I do not hold or provide any collateral at the moment. |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
59
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 22:46:43 -
[1086] - Quote
Nero Farway wrote:Buzz Orti wrote: You can't short the market in EVE (who says outside?).
Offer others to take the loan in PLEx which you sell them. Then rebuy them (the loan in PLExes) later (from the party to get the loan) to repay the loan.
Don't minsinterpret it to get a loan in PLEx and then have to pay interest by paying the loan back in higher cost PLEx. (Although , I don't know , unless they deserve it ...) + Interest(s).
What you wrote confuses me a bit. You can short the market the same way you can do it in real life. Some hedge funds actually loan out their company shares to others so those others can sell them and later rebuy them in order to give them back. you can just do the same with PLEX. Of course there is a cost associated with that. Thats the interest you pay for the loan. say you ask for 100 PLEX and a 30 months duration and offer to give back 101 PLEX, then the 1 PLEX is the interest. If PLEX cost more or if they cost less when it's time to pay back, thats something no one knows, but thats how shorts generally work.
When I wrote : You can't short the market in EVE (who says outside?). above. It was meant figuratively , since the usual form would be : You can't short the market in EVE (who is to say that you cannot do it outside of EVE Online).
In fact, the place I heard mentioning that you can't short sell in EVE Online's market themselves mentioned that it was possible in real life, referring to it as being outside of EVE Online.
Therefore , in this sense, I for one, was the one who said outside, and put a question mark after the word. For two, it meant that , although you can short sell in real life, that it cannot be done without the proper channel or illegally.
Many on the Market Discussion forums.
As for you mentioning : What you wrote confuses me a bit. I get this a lot. I can usually start to invest into numerating those cases chronologically, and in other orders as well. And no, I won't include how many bits it takes to make related wholes.
btw, Those edge funds you mentioned are not short selling with the ingame system. Everything is done externally. You can trade anything ingame from the game processes without doing it externally. The system will not let you trade items for ingame ISK unless those are expanded. Certain skill will grant you loans which will not be unpaid if a transaction is issued to be completed.
If the funds for it are removed, the offer becomes a scam, and it's a margin trading scam. Usually those doing it are found by pilot names and are dealt with ingame. This is not short selling the market.
As for offering 100 PLEx for 1 PLEx that is too low. I have to raise my prices and interest accordingly. I can't afford to get collaterals unless I can be sure to sell them without being blowed up or lose billions without profits. That means that yes, depending on the percent of capital that needs to be covered, the escort costs will be required in full, before contract. That means that , until I have enough to cover for the escort cost and still make a profit with minimal risk of loses, it won't materialize.
So, on 100 PLEx, and at 2 to 10 PLEx escort cost, that means that 15% only pays me 4% and less due to other costs, and start up costs, but I would take 4% profit.
Buzz Orti wrote: In PLEx, citadel , POS and what not. Except that they don't use them anyway, so to use them in more specific ways later.
" A bit confusing again. Of course people have different stuff that they are hoarding for whatever purposes. However, loaning them out does not mean they will not be available again at a later time. So when it's time to use them in "more specific ways", the loan duration could already be over. I don't expect anyone to give away stuff for longer than he can afford to do so. "
You are again referring to confusion. Maybe I should invest with ingame mental health degree to prevent being railroaded into making you confusing.?.
As for those investments, it's just because they save capital instead of reinvesting it in possible loses.
Buzz Orti wrote:
Those PLEx all made money, even when the PLEx value go down, they still make money in the overall trend.
" Most of them probably made money, yes. But that doesn't mean they cannot make money right now. An investor always tries to maximize his return. Plus, if you are in it for the long run, it doesn't matter if they rise or fall in the small term and it's even better if you can earn an extra plex by lending out a few. "
The longer, the more percent of profit generated, and the more ISK volume. You can still, like me, buy a PLEx and sell it, to later buy a PLEx with the sold PLEx ISK at a worst rate. However, there was an advantage to test the market and see if I would get more money . I would have then avoided the loss. But I would not have found out if I didn't try. I also would have lost the possible use of PLEx and opportunities. My loss wasn't that great either. Only about 5% to 10% or less. I could verify since I have the screenshot with the taxes.
Buzz Orti wrote: I'll buy your collateral for definitely possible PLEx.
"Now I may not be a native English speaker but I am sure I am not the only one who doesn't know what that means. I do not hold or provide any collateral at the moment." I'll buy your collateral for definitely possible PLEx. means: I'll buy your "insert quote here" for my "insert quote here". Eg.: I'll buy your product for my ISK. Or, I'll buy your product for my PLEx.
The inserted "definitely possible" part is from the author mentioning about, " Why not make some money with those PLEX? As long as you offer the collateral it's " definitely possible. " "
It's not for operation Acoustic Kitty while on Probation. |
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
33
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 02:50:59 -
[1087] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:pretty sure 90% of the people you think are causing a problem are doing the same thing you are. mining.
if you all stopped mining just to PLEX, the price of PLEX might go down.
that's not irony
Cutting your throat to stay alive... yes... and all the while driving down prices to make it harder to pay for the plex
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32901
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 02:52:58 -
[1088] - Quote
Paul Pohl wrote:Rain6637 wrote:pretty sure 90% of the people you think are causing a problem are doing the same thing you are. mining.
if you all stopped mining just to PLEX, the price of PLEX might go down.
that's not irony Cutting your throat to stay alive... yes... and all the while driving down prices to make it harder to pay for the plex Holy **** that post is a year old
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3838
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 03:30:43 -
[1089] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Paul Pohl wrote:Rain6637 wrote:pretty sure 90% of the people you think are causing a problem are doing the same thing you are. mining.
if you all stopped mining just to PLEX, the price of PLEX might go down.
that's not irony Cutting your throat to stay alive... yes... and all the while driving down prices to make it harder to pay for the plex Holy **** that post is a year old
A post necro....?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32984
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 17:10:47 -
[1090] - Quote
Not technically, it seems this thread just never died (wtf)
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3838
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 19:33:47 -
[1091] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Not technically, it seems this thread just never died (wtf)
Hence the reference to post...not thread.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
272
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 13:34:16 -
[1092] - Quote
Damn, it feels good to be a plexta.
TAUTX: Private Bank & Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
|
SeaSaw
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
72
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 19:51:15 -
[1093] - Quote
Good Sirs;
I read lots of this thread by people who claimed they were economists and futures traders etc. They talked about time, leasure time, and how if I can earn one plex working my real life job in less time than I can grind it out in game I should.
I have two scenarios:
One: suppose I can play Eve from work. If I play long enuf to buy a plex while I am at work does that mean I shouldn't grind ISK at work?
Two: suppose I work for CCP, does that mean even if I can play from work I should grind ISK?
your humble servent SeaSaw |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4438
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 20:00:17 -
[1094] - Quote
SeaSaw wrote:Good Sirs;
I read lots of this thread by people who claimed they were economists and futures traders etc. They talked about time, leasure time, and how if I can earn one plex working my real life job in less time than I can grind it out in game I should.
I have two scenarios:
One: suppose I can play Eve from work. If I play long enuf to buy a plex while I am at work does that mean I shouldn't grind ISK at work?
Two: suppose I work for CCP, does that mean even if I can play from work I should grind ISK?
your humble servent SeaSaw
Yes, grinding in a case where you can play from work might be a reasonable approach to take. I assume you are doing a low demand type of grinding, like semi-AFK mining/ratting, etc. Or where you have periods where you are simply waiting (e.g. invention).
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
805
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 23:38:51 -
[1095] - Quote
SeaSaw wrote: One: suppose I can play Eve from work. If I play long enuf to buy a plex while I am at work does that mean I shouldn't grind ISK at work?
The opportunity cost here might just be your job ;).
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4438
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 00:17:13 -
[1096] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:SeaSaw wrote: One: suppose I can play Eve from work. If I play long enuf to buy a plex while I am at work does that mean I shouldn't grind ISK at work?
The opportunity cost here might just be your job ;).
There is that...
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
ZmajOgnjeniVuk
Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 11:12:14 -
[1097] - Quote
tl;dr thread, plex is pricey |
Cixi
19
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 13:31:32 -
[1098] - Quote
ZmajOgnjeniVuk wrote:tl;dr thread, plex is pricey
tl;dr, prices are going up soon |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4474
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 16:07:51 -
[1099] - Quote
Cixi wrote:ZmajOgnjeniVuk wrote:tl;dr thread, plex is pricey tl;dr, prices are going up soon
Maybe, but I doubt it. The current upward trend coincides with the announcement that we'll get the SP extractors/injectors in February. My guess is that they'll keep going up for a bit then stabilize.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
113
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 20:04:00 -
[1100] - Quote
Aoife Fraoch wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Aoife Fraoch wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:There is little to no seasonality in the PLEX price time series. I have downloaded the data and checked for both monthly and weekly seasonality and found none.
As for bubbles and the trend in PLEX prices....
As for bubbles, here is the thing about them...they are very, very hard to predict.
Lets suppose that some guy named Bob had found a way to predict perfectly when a bubble was about to burst. Bob would then sell short at the peak and then buy when prices dropped dramatically making a killing. How often could Bob do this? Maybe 2-4 times then everyone would know...watch Bob. As soon as Bob starts selling short....oh ****. Get out!!! Bob, to try and maintain his profit margin might sell a bit earlier...but then so would everyone else. And this logic would repeat itself all the way back to the point that the bubble started to form.
Predicting bubbles and their peak is not possible. Of course some people appear to have gotten it "right" by consistently going against the consensus, but so what? Doing that means that eventually you'd be right, but the vast majority of the time you'll be wrong. People who then think such prognosticators are some sort of genius simply help assure why bubbles are so hard to predict.
Is the current PLEX price a bubble? I don't know. Maybe. I doubt it, but then again nobody really knows. There does seem to be yearly seasonality and a general upwards trend. Thanks for posting your data as well, I had a bit of a look at it. I have been meaning to do more with timeseries and it was fun playing with the forecast library. http://rpubs.com/randomGraphs/117046 How many models did you fit? That just seems odd. One year high the next low. I could buy something more like a traditional seasonal patter what with school/summer etc. But a year over year fluctuation....? And did you try including some sort of autoregressive error term? Looking at the remainder graph and your Durbin-Watson statistic (although I don't have access to my texts with the tables for the Durbin-Watson tables) might want to consider adding in an autoregressive error term. Sorry for the delay, irl has been a little unfriendly of late. Nothing serious, just time and energy consuming. Frankly this was just something I threw together because it looked interesting, and it did seem that when you have daily data, with some of the trending that is bound to happen around games, you would get some weird cycles turning up and there would not be just one pattern. Personally I am templed to say that the last year has been weird and has not behaved like the previous ones. And even just mentioning being able to buy sp with plex will continue to make it odd. The first time serious decomposition I did was using the stl function (using loess) with the seasonal window of "periodic" it takes the mean instead of smoothing per a supplied lag. The function can take a number of other parametres like a trend window and so on. I used this with a number of stated seasonal periods as well (7 and 365.25), but thats in the code. The tbats function from the forecast library is an interesting one. For one thing it has an insanely long name (TBATS model (Exponential smoothing state space model with Box-Cox transformation, ARMA errors, Trend and Seasonal components)). The options I had used were seasonal periods for both 7 and 365.25 on daily data with box.cox to true. If this was null then it would have used selected if they were to be used based on AIC. trend and damped trend were not selected explicitly though damped was used. I should have included this in the original output: > PlexAverage.tbats$parameters $vect [1] 1.246931e-06 8.484456e-01 8.181487e-01 -4.206490e-02 -6.835356e-07 [6] -3.498706e-04 -4.151820e-04 6.235535e-05 $control $control$use.beta [1] TRUE $control$use.box.cox [1] TRUE $control$use.damping [1] TRUE $control$length.gamma [1] 4 $control$p [1] 0 $control$q [1] 0 arama.errors was set true and used and fitted by AIC. hope this answers your questions, its worth just looking at it yourself. I am relatively new to working with time series data anyway. Yes, I found some API code from EVE Online's Developer's link, or the forum references for 3rd party tools. However, I never tested them yet with no home internet. (btw, this text data above was entered without the save draft function, since it works more like a military drone than other.)
I am looking for the data on my programmer, but I believe his EVE mail are on another account, which references I am trying to confirm. I was asked for a quote of around 500m ISK however, or request for confirmation, there weas no replies. Looks like he could not serve me, and that I would have to do the work myself (solo). What's the point to pay 1.8 t ISK to find someone trustworthy and not have enough to pay for programming left? It's more cost effiicient to do the work myself and register the transferrable rights and descriptions for my own credit. |
|
Angelica Everstar
308
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 13:07:51 -
[1101] - Quote
Post #33 - 2014-11-15 17:24:56 UTC from this thread:
Angelica Everstar wrote:Xanato Kaso wrote:Why are they going up so fast??? Last month when I plexxed my accounts i was getting them for around 780m ea. Now they are running almost 900m!!!! "PLEX are to damn expensive !!!" Like I have said so many times before... When we hit 300m, 400m, 500m, 600m, 800m and more. "Just wait, it's going to go higher. The market is not done yet".
Blast from the past :D
§ Current Bond AE09 1 Trillion // Totaling Gëê 4,5 Trillon ISK
¦Æ Any bad spelling or grammar, is free of charge
¢ Pls help support PLEX4GOOD
@EveEntrepreneur
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1284
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 16:27:32 -
[1102] - Quote
Everything is proceeding as I have forseen. |
Angelica Everstar
308
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 17:02:30 -
[1103] - Quote
So when do you foresee the next big up turn?
§ Current Bond AE09 1 Trillion // Totaling Gëê 4,5 Trillon ISK
¦Æ Any bad spelling or grammar, is free of charge
¢ Pls help support PLEX4GOOD
@EveEntrepreneur
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1284
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 17:17:57 -
[1104] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:So when do you foresee the next big up turn? When skill extractor madness has died down. Give it a week or two.
But longer term I think things are going to be pretty interesting. I'm looking to see what kind of dynamics set up between PLEX and Skill Injector prices. We've just gone through an unprecedented week in the PLEX market and interested to see what the future holds. |
Adunh Slavy
1635
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 03:25:10 -
[1105] - Quote
Keep printing that isk.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt
|
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
831
|
Posted - 2016.03.05 02:39:36 -
[1106] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Everything is proceeding as I have forseen.
Bad Bobby wrote:Angelica Everstar wrote:So when do you foresee the next big up turn? When skill extractor madness has died down. Give it a week or two. But longer term I think things are going to be pretty interesting. I'm looking to see what kind of dynamics set up between PLEX and Skill Injector prices. We've just gone through an unprecedented week in the PLEX market and interested to see what the future holds.
What now, captain?
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1292
|
Posted - 2016.03.05 04:30:30 -
[1107] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Everything is proceeding as I have forseen. Bad Bobby wrote:Angelica Everstar wrote:So when do you foresee the next big up turn? When skill extractor madness has died down. Give it a week or two. But longer term I think things are going to be pretty interesting. I'm looking to see what kind of dynamics set up between PLEX and Skill Injector prices. We've just gone through an unprecedented week in the PLEX market and interested to see what the future holds. What now, captain? Abandon ship!
Women and children first! |
Kaivar Lancer
Placid Import and Export
910
|
Posted - 2016.03.05 08:36:13 -
[1108] - Quote
With broker fees increasing up to 6% in NPC station, the cost of a round-trip is going to be 12%. If the change to NPC taxes go through, expect PLEX to jump 10%+ just to cover the spread.
BUY BUY BUY. |
Ria Nieyli
41529
|
Posted - 2016.03.05 09:22:15 -
[1109] - Quote
Well, that is if you have 0 standings or skills. If you're a well prepared trader, you can expect to pay fees and taxes totalling about two and a half times what you're paying now, not ten.
Also something something higher isk sinks increase the value of ISK something. |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
186
|
Posted - 2016.03.05 16:01:29 -
[1110] - Quote
no price available today, sorry
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
|
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Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
870
|
Posted - 2016.03.05 23:48:24 -
[1111] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:With broker fees increasing up to 6% in NPC station, the cost of a round-trip is going to be 12%. If the change to NPC taxes go through, expect PLEX to jump 10%+ just to cover the spread.
BUY BUY BUY.
its 2.something with 5/5 standing each way + sales tax.
Prices will move by about 6%
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
|
Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
10
|
Posted - 2016.03.11 15:32:33 -
[1112] - Quote
I was expecting the prices to go up faster since the sale ended and the announcement for the broker fee raise, there is a lot of ISK to be made here |
Tazinas2
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.03.14 12:49:16 -
[1113] - Quote
Plex are too expensive, skill extractors are too cheap and skill injectors are too expensive. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4801
|
Posted - 2016.03.14 18:30:40 -
[1114] - Quote
Tazinas2 wrote:Plex are too expensive, skill extractors are too cheap and skill injectors are too expensive.
Why?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Dr Caymus
Applied Technologies Inc Agents of Fortune
186
|
Posted - 2016.03.15 01:06:10 -
[1115] - Quote
Tazinas2 wrote:Plex are too expensive, skill extractors are too cheap and skill injectors are too expensive. As I see it, PLEX, Extractors and Injectors are priced very efficiently in the market right now, and pretty much have been since the roll out of Extractors and Injectors. It's been a rather impressive roll out in terms of market efficiency. You could argue that PLEX are a little low and/or Extractors are a little high, based on current bulk (e:real cash) purchase pricing and Aurum exchange rates, but they're really pretty close to spot on. Injectors are priced at a level that would deliver an SP farmer around 200mm per month per character in profits after covering the cost of plex and extractors, a reasonable profit that could be considered consistent with an efficient market. |
Tazinas2
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.03.15 02:57:52 -
[1116] - Quote
Dr Caymus wrote:Tazinas2 wrote:Plex are too expensive, skill extractors are too cheap and skill injectors are too expensive. As I see it, PLEX, Extractors and Injectors are priced very efficiently in the market right now, and pretty much have been since the roll out of Extractors and Injectors. It's been a rather impressive roll out in terms of market efficiency. You could argue that PLEX are a little low and/or Extractors are a little high, based on current bulk (e:real cash) purchase pricing and Aurum exchange rates, but they're really pretty close to spot on. Injectors are priced at a level that would deliver an SP farmer around 200mm per month per character in profits after covering the cost of plex and extractors, a reasonable profit that could be considered consistent with an efficient market.
HA! I plexed my account just skill trading. 200 month profit??? What? I can get almost 3 skill injectors per month in skill points.
Why are plex too expensive? Plex guarantees 2 things-- 1. 30 days of game time and 2. Skill points. CCP has now allowed players to price what those skill points are worth. And like everything else in eve, the community will farm those skill points almost to the point of worthlessness.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4802
|
Posted - 2016.03.15 03:42:23 -
[1117] - Quote
Tazinas2 wrote:Dr Caymus wrote:Tazinas2 wrote:Plex are too expensive, skill extractors are too cheap and skill injectors are too expensive. As I see it, PLEX, Extractors and Injectors are priced very efficiently in the market right now, and pretty much have been since the roll out of Extractors and Injectors. It's been a rather impressive roll out in terms of market efficiency. You could argue that PLEX are a little low and/or Extractors are a little high, based on current bulk (e:real cash) purchase pricing and Aurum exchange rates, but they're really pretty close to spot on. Injectors are priced at a level that would deliver an SP farmer around 200mm per month per character in profits after covering the cost of plex and extractors, a reasonable profit that could be considered consistent with an efficient market. Plex guarantees 2 things-- 1. 30 days of game time and 2. Skill points. CCP has now allowed players to price what those skill points are worth. And like everything else in eve, the community will farm those skill points almost to the point of worthlessness.
Really? So PLEX are worthless? Please explain.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5726
|
Posted - 2016.03.15 04:01:58 -
[1118] - Quote
PLEX in a slow but measured decline short term, as I expected.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
|
Tazinas2
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.03.15 13:57:28 -
[1119] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Tazinas2 wrote:Dr Caymus wrote:Tazinas2 wrote:Plex are too expensive, skill extractors are too cheap and skill injectors are too expensive. As I see it, PLEX, Extractors and Injectors are priced very efficiently in the market right now, and pretty much have been since the roll out of Extractors and Injectors. It's been a rather impressive roll out in terms of market efficiency. You could argue that PLEX are a little low and/or Extractors are a little high, based on current bulk (e:real cash) purchase pricing and Aurum exchange rates, but they're really pretty close to spot on. Injectors are priced at a level that would deliver an SP farmer around 200mm per month per character in profits after covering the cost of plex and extractors, a reasonable profit that could be considered consistent with an efficient market. Plex guarantees 2 things-- 1. 30 days of game time and 2. Skill points. CCP has now allowed players to price what those skill points are worth. And like everything else in eve, the community will farm those skill points almost to the point of worthlessness. Really? So PLEX are worthless? Please explain.
Brilliant post.
All I will say is 1.1 B isk is worth more than ~ $17. And now there is a new way of looking at the value of that plex because of injectors/ extractors.
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1302
|
Posted - 2016.03.15 14:18:16 -
[1120] - Quote
Tazinas2 wrote:All I will say is 1.1 B isk is worth more than ~ $17. To you, maybe.
But to many people, including myself, ISK is pretty much worthless compared to RL currency.
|
|
Angelica Everstar
316
|
Posted - 2016.03.15 14:29:39 -
[1121] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Tazinas2 wrote:All I will say is 1.1 B isk is worth more than ~ $17. To you, maybe. But to many people, including myself, ISK is pretty much worthless compared to RL currency.
I will second that :)
§ Current Bond AE09 1 Trillion // Totaling Gëê 4,5 Trillon ISK
¦Æ Any bad spelling or grammar, is free of charge
¢ Pls help support PLEX4GOOD
@EveEntrepreneur
|
Tazinas2
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.03.15 14:55:28 -
[1122] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Tazinas2 wrote:All I will say is 1.1 B isk is worth more than ~ $17. To you, maybe. But to many people, including myself, ISK is pretty much worthless compared to RL currency.
No, it is to everyone considering what it takes to make 17 usd to what it takes to make 1.1 B in game. And that's just a fact. Very easy to make 17 bucks. Much harder to make 1.1 B isk.
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1302
|
Posted - 2016.03.15 17:13:53 -
[1123] - Quote
I don't think we're talking about the same game.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4804
|
Posted - 2016.03.15 21:00:57 -
[1124] - Quote
Tazinas2 wrote:
Brilliant post.
All I will say is 1.1 B isk is worth more than ~ $17. And now there is a new way of looking at the value of that plex because of injectors/ extractors.
Yes, I know.
My point is that PLEX are not worthless, and the exchange rate between RL currency and ISK is going to be very, very low. While IKS has value in game it has value nowhere else and as such is of very limited RL value. Hence the price of PLEX in terms of ISK.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4804
|
Posted - 2016.03.15 21:08:41 -
[1125] - Quote
Tazinas2 wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Tazinas2 wrote:All I will say is 1.1 B isk is worth more than ~ $17. To you, maybe. But to many people, including myself, ISK is pretty much worthless compared to RL currency. No, it is to everyone considering what it takes to make 17 usd to what it takes to make 1.1 B in game. And that's just a fact. Very easy to make 17 bucks. Much harder to make 1.1 B isk.
Depends on what you are doing.
If you are low skilled in RL you'll have a harder time making $17 than if you are high skilled.
Similarly in game, if you are skilled at making ISK you'll make alot, if you aren't then you won't.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
834
|
Posted - 2016.03.15 21:56:18 -
[1126] - Quote
Tazinas2 wrote:Plex are too expensive, skill extractors are too cheap and skill injectors are too expensive.
Did you mean PLEX is too expensive in ISK or $?
Tazinas2 wrote:All I will say is 1.1 B isk is worth more than ~ $17. And now there is a new way of looking at the value of that plex because of injectors/ extractors.
That's not what the market says ;).
Tazinas2 wrote:No, it is to everyone considering what it takes to make 17 usd to what it takes to make 1.1 B in game. And that's just a fact. Very easy to make 17 bucks. Much harder to make 1.1 B isk.
I agree with this, I think the average EVE player can earn $17 much faster than they could 1.1b.
Incursions top out around 200m/hour including LP so to earn 1.1b you'd need to grind Incursions for 5.5 hours, but only 1.5%* of players on any given day run Incursions, while 22.4% mine and 19.2% run missions which both pay out significantly less. The average (I'm guessing mean) hourly wage in the US is ~$21** and median hourly wage is ~$16***.
For older or otherwise richer players, NEETs, or retirees it may be the other way round, but I don't think they're the norm. I vaguely remember a dev mentioning a statistic regarding wealth disparity in New Eden and I have a feeling it was a lot worse than it is in real life where it's often quoted that the top 1% of the population owning half of the world's wealth.
* http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68738/1/activity.16.png (http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-economy-update-eve-vegas-2015-report/) ** http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/wages *** http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/09/01/the-absurdity-of-a-15-minimum-wage/#77f91bd0483a
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
|
Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
15
|
Posted - 2016.03.16 00:10:58 -
[1127] - Quote
My only explanation for PLEX prices right now is that people cashed out their PLEX booty in order to invest in citadels BPO. |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
223
|
Posted - 2016.03.16 00:26:34 -
[1128] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Tazinas2 wrote:Plex are too expensive, skill extractors are too cheap and skill injectors are too expensive. Did you mean PLEX is too expensive in ISK or $? Tazinas2 wrote:All I will say is 1.1 B isk is worth more than ~ $17. And now there is a new way of looking at the value of that plex because of injectors/ extractors. That's not what the market says ;). Tazinas2 wrote:No, it is to everyone considering what it takes to make 17 usd to what it takes to make 1.1 B in game. And that's just a fact. Very easy to make 17 bucks. Much harder to make 1.1 B isk.
I agree with this, I think the average EVE player can earn $17 much faster than they could 1.1b. Incursions top out around 200m/hour including LP so to earn 1.1b you'd need to grind Incursions for 5.5 hours, but only 1.5%* of players on any given day run Incursions, while 22.4% mine and 19.2% run missions which both pay out significantly less. The average (I'm guessing mean) hourly wage in the US is ~$21** and median hourly wage is ~$16***. For older or otherwise richer players, NEETs, or retirees it may be the other way round, but I don't think they're the norm. I vaguely remember a dev mentioning a statistic regarding wealth disparity in New Eden and I have a feeling it was a lot worse than it is in real life where it's often quoted that the top 1% of the population owning half of the world's wealth. * http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68738/1/activity.16.png (http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-economy-update-eve-vegas-2015-report/) ** http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/wages *** http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/09/01/the-absurdity-of-a-15-minimum-wage/#77f91bd0483a PLEx used to be worth much more to me when I didn't have internet at home. More than 10 times to 100 times more. Unfortunately for me in those times, most perseption of the game were always displayed in "unreal" term, which when applied to computer science terms equated to losing much of the motivation required to actually acquire those PLEx.
Of course it was more cost-efficient forme to forget about it and close the game and actually go get married or whatever else was more worthwhile.
Of course designer keep the right to change terms without notice which makes invetments rather risky to say the least.
What if you invested PLEx, in PLEx and in PLEx prices only to find your legal third party programs obsolete due to changes? How would that affect the value of the third party program ? What part of it can be transferred into transferrable rights and skills? etc, etc, etc (I'll spare you the rest of the non-fun, real fun programming design business work.)
Now that I finally have my home internet connection, my landlord had a stroke and can't talk or write (perhaps for 1 year).
I can also almost run incursion, which at 200m per hour (or 40m per hour, split income) will make my 1.2b ISK PLExing down from 4 hours a day at 10 m ISK per hour to 1 hour per day. (4 hours a day at 10m per hour = 1.2b ISK per 30 days period, the PLEx period of time, also equal to 1 month of game time.)
I did exploration in Tier II, Interceptor ship, minus the ECM Burst , which was changed to a mid slot, but with 3 stabs, let me escape a scram attemptand gpo through a bubble at the other end to jump gate. I made 15m ISK in a few hours at 256 kbps due to speed reduced in 2 relic sites. Then , another 14m ISK, in less than one hour, at 4mbps to 7mbps minimum up to 25 mbps max, in one more site.
20 + Goons showed up, I docked before being destroyed and unloaded the precious cargo.
I will have to JF the loot to where it's worth escorted by my covert fleet or another escort. Escorts cost around 200m ISK to 2b ISK or more.
I also do trading but I am testing other avenues until I can test incursions succesfully. I have my doubt on the reported income and think it is overvalued (amongst other thing, though I could not calculate by how much yet).
I am still looking for my coder / programmer who does not reply, and am asked for 5 billion or less, if i have my own server , of which i have more than 2, nonetheless, negotiattion was not profitable. I will start learning and testing API coding the CREST data code and will offer my services but I doubt it will pay me for the same reasons. It seems that war is the better of the opportunities and the more realistic condition.
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
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Dextrome Thorphan
Intrepid Crossing
145
|
Posted - 2016.03.16 11:08:20 -
[1129] - Quote
Buzz Orti wrote: PLEx used to be worth much more to me when I didn't have internet at home. More than 10 times to 100 times more. Unfortunately for me in those times, most perseption of the game were always displayed in "unreal" term, which when applied to computer science terms equated to losing much of the motivation required to actually acquire those PLEx.
Of course it was more cost-efficient forme to forget about it and close the game and actually go get married or whatever else was more worthwhile.
Of course designer keep the right to change terms without notice which makes invetments rather risky to say the least.
What if you invested PLEx, in PLEx and in PLEx prices only to find your legal third party programs obsolete due to changes? How would that affect the value of the third party program ? What part of it can be transferred into transferrable rights and skills? etc, etc, etc (I'll spare you the rest of the non-fun, real fun programming design business work.)
Now that I finally have my home internet connection, my landlord had a stroke and can't talk or write (perhaps for 1 year).
I can also almost run incursion, which at 200m per hour (or 40m per hour, split income) will make my 1.2b ISK PLExing down from 4 hours a day at 10 m ISK per hour to 1 hour per day. (4 hours a day at 10m per hour = 1.2b ISK per 30 days period, the PLEx period of time, also equal to 1 month of game time.)
I did exploration in Tier II, Interceptor ship, minus the ECM Burst , which was changed to a mid slot, but with 3 stabs, let me escape a scram attemptand gpo through a bubble at the other end to jump gate. I made 15m ISK in a few hours at 256 kbps due to speed reduced in 2 relic sites. Then , another 14m ISK, in less than one hour, at 4mbps to 7mbps minimum up to 25 mbps max, in one more site.
20 + Goons showed up, I docked before being destroyed and unloaded the precious cargo.
I will have to JF the loot to where it's worth escorted by my covert fleet or another escort. Escorts cost around 200m ISK to 2b ISK or more.
I also do trading but I am testing other avenues until I can test incursions succesfully. I have my doubt on the reported income and think it is overvalued (amongst other thing, though I could not calculate by how much yet).
I am still looking for my coder / programmer who does not reply, and am asked for 5 billion or less, if i have my own server , of which i have more than 2, nonetheless, negotiattion was not profitable. I will start learning and testing API coding the CREST data code and will offer my services but I doubt it will pay me for the same reasons. It seems that war is the better of the opportunities and the more realistic condition.
so incoherent lol |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
223
|
Posted - 2016.03.16 11:19:36 -
[1130] - Quote
Dextrome Thorphan wrote:...so incoherent lol So eternally negative no lol
I wouldn't want to be coercive...
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1304
|
Posted - 2016.03.16 11:26:31 -
[1131] - Quote
I'm pretty sure there is suitable medication available. |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
223
|
Posted - 2016.03.16 11:38:22 -
[1132] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:I'm pretty sure there is suitable medication available. Luckily, my landlord who was a nurse and is now suffering from a stroke and can't talk or write left her professional medication book on the kitchen table as if it was a nursing station center table for business as usual.
You can pick and choose, test the other new stuff, call the drug booster lab for PLEx Prices change effect and what not. I mean, at least it would cover for part of the insurance plan.
There was something else, ah yes, the Hell's Kitchen syndrome scheme program, I remember now. Except I forgot what else was with it. Ah yes, it had to do with the SOE Project Discovery and mixing biohazard scientific research with Kitchen Sink more practical daily usage variants into Astronomical Units to go get the PLEx Prices.
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1304
|
Posted - 2016.03.16 11:41:08 -
[1133] - Quote
That's funny, I was just saying the same to my stock broker the other day. |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
223
|
Posted - 2016.03.16 12:40:13 -
[1134] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:That's funny, I was just saying the same to my stock broker the other day. I was offered to move where current mass refugee are offered protection, which seem like the logical solution to care for my future offspring. Good intentions may be better for them in the face of evil (or away from, or both).
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
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Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
17
|
Posted - 2016.03.16 14:04:27 -
[1135] - Quote
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Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
223
|
Posted - 2016.03.16 17:30:14 -
[1136] - Quote
1.123 b ISK in Jita
1.105 b ISK in Jita Buy
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
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ISD Fractal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1129
|
Posted - 2016.03.17 13:17:26 -
[1137] - Quote
Quote:27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
I have removed several off topic posts.
ISD Fractal
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1307
|
Posted - 2016.03.17 13:21:59 -
[1138] - Quote
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Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
223
|
Posted - 2016.03.17 18:07:05 -
[1139] - Quote
Much better to save the replies in this thread before posting since there is too many complaints aimed at gaining grounds.
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
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Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
223
|
Posted - 2016.03.17 18:21:32 -
[1140] - Quote
Was it you Bad Bobby mentioning about informing your broker about related events aimed at PLEX Prices changes , such as those events that try to cover changes by making them seem off-topic?
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1322
|
Posted - 2016.03.17 19:26:09 -
[1141] - Quote
Buzz Orti wrote:Was it you Bad Bobby mentioning about informing your broker about related events aimed at PLEX Prices changes , such as those events that try to cover changes by making them seem off-topic? It was my posts about your posts being gibberish, if that's what you mean.
How that is off topic is anyone's guess. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1329
|
Posted - 2016.03.19 06:51:20 -
[1142] - Quote
And...
PLEX is 1B again! |
Nina Nobuna
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2016.03.19 06:53:45 -
[1143] - Quote
Time to horde em plex, just waiting for the right time, seems like its still going down XD |
Tazinas2
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.03.19 16:30:53 -
[1144] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Tazinas2 wrote:Plex are too expensive, skill extractors are too cheap and skill injectors are too expensive. Did you mean PLEX is too expensive in ISK or $? Tazinas2 wrote:All I will say is 1.1 B isk is worth more than ~ $17. And now there is a new way of looking at the value of that plex because of injectors/ extractors. That's not what the market says ;). Tazinas2 wrote:No, it is to everyone considering what it takes to make 17 usd to what it takes to make 1.1 B in game. And that's just a fact. Very easy to make 17 bucks. Much harder to make 1.1 B isk.
I agree with this, I think the average EVE player can earn $17 much faster than they could 1.1b.
All eve players can earn 17 bucks faster than 1.1 B. So 200m/h running incursions equals around 5 hours running incursions. 17/5 =3.40 per hour wage. Whats the minimum wage here in America? What $10 an hour something like that? You could deliver pizza for like an hour and make that much.
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Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
223
|
Posted - 2016.03.19 22:13:28 -
[1145] - Quote
Isk was going to be good to me, but I don't even have any use to get active game time either now.
This is more like a system to investigate which security entities are involved and try to ban me to justify how they try to make me look how they want and make me do what they want.
According to them, I should be the one to damage others, and pay lawyers some tens of thousands, just to be with them, or to make up for damages, they intend on making me do, and hold me liable to.
I don't think that would be a good idea to ask others to join them if they were to try to do this to them as well.
Either way, the fact that the PLEx is back down at 1b ISK, instead of 1.2b ISK or 1.1b ISK until next September, end of August 2016, means that , it will be worth a 20% investment profit on a billion which is not bad, considering it is 200m ISK a unit. 5 units at 5 billion = 1 billion profit, which is easy profit, capital wise.
Of course, it is a far cry from the 400% business profit or 10,000% + cap.
Either way, I have no use for it due to the aforementioned facts.
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
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Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
77
|
Posted - 2016.04.08 23:46:24 -
[1146] - Quote
Will we hit the sub 1B price today ? https://i.imgur.com/ZsV0xqi.png
That 100 units order look strong!
Meanwhile, Dodixie B/O did break the 1B mark ! https://i.imgur.com/o2r4pv3.png
What a time to be alive |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
274
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 00:32:19 -
[1147] - Quote
I of course was in no way predicting this, and of course the prices were only going to go up and up and up. I mean, it was simply a scientific analysis of the potential outcomes given different possible set of circumstances, which ... Well, it didn't quite happened as mentioning, since there was nothing about a war or rabbit ears, brown, white or black.
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4823
|
Posted - 2016.04.12 17:06:32 -
[1148] - Quote
WTF?
What about market manipulation and all that bullshite? How can the price be this low?
Clearly it must be part of a grand cornspiracy by the eveeel masterlords of the the market.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
288
|
Posted - 2016.04.12 18:24:00 -
[1149] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:WTF? What about market manipulation and all that bullshite? How can the price be this low? Clearly it must be part of a grand cornspiracy by the eveeel masterlords of the the market. The one and only grand cornspiracy by the eveeel masterlords of the the market scheme. There is also the other one, but I don't talk about that.
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
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Tavari Minrathos
Honey Badgers R US
16
|
Posted - 2016.04.13 16:43:28 -
[1150] - Quote
Major Players liquidating for Citadel BPO's and lots of new or low SP characters buying PLEX from to convert into skill injectors.
Add that with a lot of the speculators at the 1.1 or 1.2B price trying to get out of the market over the last few months means a lot of PLEX hitting the market.
Also potentially more than a few vets coming back for the war who might be needing a bit of isk and either dump some of their PLEX stash or buy from CCP to reship.
Due to how SP is now more interwoven with PLEX, I wouldn't be to surprised if we see a plateau for ~6 months |
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Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
288
|
Posted - 2016.04.13 19:27:04 -
[1151] - Quote
Tavari Minrathos wrote:Major Players liquidating for Citadel BPO's and lots of new or low SP characters buying PLEX from to convert into skill injectors.
Add that with a lot of the speculators at the 1.1 or 1.2B price trying to get out of the market over the last few months means a lot of PLEX hitting the market.
Also potentially more than a few vets coming back for the war who might be needing a bit of isk and either dump some of their PLEX stash or buy from CCP to reship.
Due to how SP is now more interwoven with PLEX, I wouldn't be to surprised if we see a plateau for ~6 months This would be early August, to early September, as last year, in 2015, and the year before in 2014, and the year before that in 2013, and the other years before then too.
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
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Anthar Thebess
1497
|
Posted - 2016.04.14 11:09:58 -
[1152] - Quote
Hint from my side. One of the guys that was doing huge plex manipulation for plex left the game. Reason : Skill Injectors He did not sell his stock, but player of his size off the market change a lot.
Next is MBC - it is also founded from some people plex reserve.
Last is skill extractor/injector speculation - you can make much more isk on this, rather than on constantly raising plex price.
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
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Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
288
|
Posted - 2016.04.14 14:23:51 -
[1153] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Hint from my side. One of the guys that was doing huge plex manipulation for plex left the game. Reason : Skill Injectors He did not sell his stock, but player of his size off the market change a lot.
Next is MBC - it is also founded from some people plex reserve.
Last is skill extractor/injector speculation - you can make much more isk on this, rather than on constantly raising plex price.
He probably just went to get a drink with his girlfriend...
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
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Anthar Thebess
1497
|
Posted - 2016.04.15 07:26:22 -
[1154] - Quote
He was quite angry, that any one can come create character and buy skillpoints, but he did not crash plex price like he intended in first place, so who knows.
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
|
Jinto Rinn
Stratton Oakmont Trading
0
|
Posted - 2016.04.15 16:20:53 -
[1155] - Quote
Well someone is crashing the market pretty hard. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4826
|
Posted - 2016.04.15 17:08:59 -
[1156] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:He was quite angry, that any one can come create character and buy skillpoints, but he did not crash plex price like he intended in first place, so who knows.
So he was an idiot.
Here is the thing, if you want to manipulate the price of something...don't put your own money at risk. Look to the Hunt brothers and learn from their foolishness.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
296
|
Posted - 2016.04.15 18:50:30 -
[1157] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:He was quite angry, that any one can come create character and buy skillpoints, but he did not crash plex price like he intended in first place, so who knows. So he was an idiot. Here is the thing, if you want to manipulate the price of something...don't put your own money at risk. Look to the Hunt brothers and learn from their foolishness. When the PLEx price goes down, the profit per unit lowers, but volume increases, because more people can buy more PLEx.
Since everyone now know that most older players have 2 or more accounts, one of which may not be active without a PLEx use to convert it to a 30 days pilot license extension of ingame time...
We could open a new thread for the spelling parts, if someone wants to hear it.
Perfect for , oh, war time?
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
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Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
99
|
Posted - 2016.04.16 07:47:09 -
[1158] - Quote
Plex prices are going to tank for a little bit
https://i.imgur.com/gAVTe31.png |
u3pog
ministerstvo na otbranata
735
|
Posted - 2016.04.16 18:42:48 -
[1159] - Quote
Yeah, I think that he/she is happy with the current prices and has 10 days to collect before the release of "Citadels" . In the o7 show there was a financial report, according to which after the release, PLEX might reach 1.2 bil mark...200 Billion ISK, not a bad profit. Of course we all have our hangars full, waiting...for the force to be awaken. |
u3pog
ministerstvo na otbranata
735
|
Posted - 2016.04.16 18:43:48 -
[1160] - Quote
Double post. |
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Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
106
|
Posted - 2016.04.16 18:54:29 -
[1161] - Quote
That's a buy order not a sell order. Why would prices tank?
|
Cixi
39
|
Posted - 2016.04.16 20:21:19 -
[1162] - Quote
u3pog wrote:Yeah, I think that he/she is happy with the current prices and has 10 days to collect before the release of "Citadels" . In the o7 show there was a financial report, according to which after the release, PLEX might reach 1.2 bil mark...200 Billion ISK, not a bad profit. Of course we all have our hangars full, waiting...for the force to be awaken.
What if the prices don't rise ? |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
297
|
Posted - 2016.04.16 22:12:29 -
[1163] - Quote
u3pog wrote:Yeah, I think that he/she is happy with the ... ... , PLEX might reach 1.2 bil mark...200 Billion ISK, not a bad profit. ... in parts of million per billion that is. 1,000 PLExes at the 1.2 mark (or 100% of the past current stable plateau, after the back to school sale, not the usual subsequent CCP sales) = does equal to 200 Billion ISK.
1 billion ISK to 1.2 bil ISK = 200 million ISK. 'b' for an 'm' typo and you get a difference of 199,800,000,000 ISK (or 199.8 b ISK).
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4829
|
Posted - 2016.04.17 08:22:11 -
[1164] - Quote
Buzz Orti wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:He was quite angry, that any one can come create character and buy skillpoints, but he did not crash plex price like he intended in first place, so who knows. So he was an idiot. Here is the thing, if you want to manipulate the price of something...don't put your own money at risk. Look to the Hunt brothers and learn from their foolishness. When the PLEx price goes down, the profit per unit lowers, but volume increases, because more people can buy more PLEx. Since everyone now know that most older players have 2 or more accounts, one of which may not be active without a PLEx use to convert it to a 30 days pilot license extension of ingame time... We could open a new thread for the spelling parts, if someone wants to hear it. Perfect for , oh, war time?
My point is I don't see how "manipulation" where you try to buy up lots of PLEX will work.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
General Muller
RpG-CONVICTS-FEDERATION
0
|
Posted - 2016.04.17 09:55:56 -
[1165] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:That's a buy order not a sell order. Why would prices tank?
With the release of Citadels it was stated very clearly that an immense fortune will be required to create these structures and as with any new feature it is all about who can achieve it first to control that very aspect, which means Mr. Visa is going to be extremely popular for that instant ISK, combined with high-roller players already stockpiling plex in assets for when they need to drop it.
The market will be flooded with supply resulting in the price to crash. |
Ria Nieyli
43701
|
Posted - 2016.04.17 10:08:43 -
[1166] - Quote
General Muller wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:That's a buy order not a sell order. Why would prices tank? With the release of Citadels it was stated very clearly that an immense fortune will be required to create these structures and as with any new feature it is all about who can achieve it first to control that very aspect, which means Mr. Visa is going to be extremely popular for that instant ISK, combined with high-roller players already stockpiling plex in assets for when they need to drop it. The market will be flooded with supply resulting in the price to crash.
The real reason is going to be the increased ISK sinks. Be it citadel BPOs or market taxes, there'll be a lot less free ISK ingame to hoard PLEX with after the patch.
"slang" is shortened language for "shortened language"
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Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
308
|
Posted - 2016.04.26 21:34:01 -
[1167] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:[quote=Buzz Orti]... My point is I don't see how "manipulation" where you try to buy up lots of PLEX will work. Manipulation is a term related to control. If you buy a lot of PLEx with intent to manipulate the pricxe to either go up or down, or for other other purpose which one "manipulator" or another would control (yes, subcontracting is allowed in this kind of internet game, be it ISP contract or free wifi), one may intent to control part of the market in PLEx.
PLEx prices being what they are, I'm all but left out at this point.
I just earned my first PLEx ingame, from running incursion. I now have over 1.05b ISK left, and spent around 1 b more in the process. So, I earned about 2b ISK income, and that would be enough for 2 PLEx time, except I had expenses to "get" the income. I can still make 3b to 4b except again that Citadels come out today, which means more capital flow will go elsewhere, and my income risk to diminish yet again.
So, if you buy lots of PLEx low, and sell them high, how many PLEx do you need to make one PLEx worth? I would say around 4 to 1, or 4 PLEx purchase sold buys you a 5th PLEx to reinvest in your PLEx manipulation capital. That means that , once you have your first 5 PLEx from sales of PLExes, you can also sell that 5th PLEx and increase your capital. So, you make around 20% profit on an item which is fairly high cost and value.
This ratio , of high value comparison , does go down with the new citadel even higher costs. Nobody even knows the fuel cost, and the BluePrint are , I don't know how much or how many PLEx worth because I didn't check that yet.
So, if you buy 5 PLEx low, with the free profit 5th PLEx, and sell them high, you make 6.20 PLEx, or approximately 20% profit. 8 PLEx bought at that rate returns 10 PLEx worth, or 2 free PLEx. 40 PLEx earns 10 and 80, 20 for a new capital total of 100.
Except for an important detail, all the transaction is done exclusively in PLEx, for as long as the risk of exclusion works (instead of actually losing from exclusion).
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
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u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
736
|
Posted - 2016.04.27 20:48:06 -
[1168] - Quote
I think someone doesn't want PLEX below 949 999 999.99 ISK...There must be 20K pieces in buy orders at that price. |
dawww
Custard Cowboys
1
|
Posted - 2016.04.27 21:21:33 -
[1169] - Quote
CCP didn't want the volume of plex sales to fall with citadel bpos costing so much, no one has that sort of capital.
#conspiracy |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
308
|
Posted - 2016.04.27 21:31:09 -
[1170] - Quote
u3pog wrote:I think someone doesn't want PLEX below 949 999 999.99 ISK...There must be 20K pieces in buy orders at that price. 20,000 / 20% = 20,000 x 0.20 = 4,000 PLExes x 949,999,999.99 ISK (or 949.9m ISK, or 0.949b ISK) = The result is out of range. = 37,999,999.996m ISK. (In supposed profit, way over the cost of a Citadel.) = 37,999.99b ISK = 37.99T ISK, or enough for an XL Citadel + a Palatine / Palladium.
Also, it is extremely hard to conspire to do good.
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
|
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dawww
Custard Cowboys
1
|
Posted - 2016.04.27 21:36:53 -
[1171] - Quote
Buzz Orti wrote:u3pog wrote:I think someone doesn't want PLEX below 949 999 999.99 ISK...There must be 20K pieces in buy orders at that price. 20,000 / 20% = 20,000 x 0.20 = 4,000 PLExes x 949,999,999.99 ISK (or 949.9m ISK, or 0.949b ISK) = The result is out of range. = 37,999,999.996m ISK. (In supposed profit, way over the cost of a Citadel.) = 37,999.99b ISK = 37.99T ISK, or enough for an XL Citadel + a Palatine / Palladium. Also, it is extremely hard to conspire to do good.
well if there are orders for 20000 plex that's around $280,000 worth, who has that kind of money to spend on a game....could just buy another house |
Varnik
Proposition Thirteen The Third Rail
20
|
Posted - 2016.04.27 21:53:40 -
[1172] - Quote
dawww wrote:Buzz Orti wrote:u3pog wrote:I think someone doesn't want PLEX below 949 999 999.99 ISK...There must be 20K pieces in buy orders at that price. 20,000 / 20% = 20,000 x 0.20 = 4,000 PLExes x 949,999,999.99 ISK (or 949.9m ISK, or 0.949b ISK) = The result is out of range. = 37,999,999.996m ISK. (In supposed profit, way over the cost of a Citadel.) = 37,999.99b ISK = 37.99T ISK, or enough for an XL Citadel + a Palatine / Palladium. Also, it is extremely hard to conspire to do good. well if there are orders for 20000 plex that's around $280,000 worth, who has that kind of money to spend on a game....could just buy another house
There are indeed a lot of orders (In Jita) at this price and I do wonder who is manipulating the market...
...
|
Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
108
|
Posted - 2016.04.27 22:44:42 -
[1173] - Quote
Buzz Orti wrote:u3pog wrote:I think someone doesn't want PLEX below 949 999 999.99 ISK...There must be 20K pieces in buy orders at that price. 20,000 / 20% = 20,000 x 0.20 = 4,000 PLExes x 949,999,999.99 ISK (or 949.9m ISK, or 0.949b ISK) = The result is out of range. = 37,999,999.996m ISK. (In supposed profit, way over the cost of a Citadel.) = 37,999.99b ISK = 37.99T ISK, or enough for an XL Citadel + a Palatine / Palladium. Also, it is extremely hard to conspire to do good.
These orders are bogus. You can confirm it by importing the prices in a sheet. (margin trading scam) |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
308
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 00:14:04 -
[1174] - Quote
dawww wrote:...
well if there are orders for 20000 plex that's around $280,000 worth, who has that kind of money to spend on a game....could just buy another house My brother in law is a commercial real-estate agent or broker and you can buy a $600,000 house with $5,000 down-payment.
Also, the EVE Online hardware costs millions of which the $280,000 is not even the 20% which 80% of the populus (latin term for effect, not efficiency) pays.
Many commercial building including CCP's basement is probably worth over millions over the hardware millions.
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
|
Keacha
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 03:09:35 -
[1175] - Quote
Varnik wrote: There are indeed a lot of orders (In Jita) at this price and I do wonder who is manipulating the market...
These orders went up a few hours before patch. I checked a few of them and they all belonged to Probag Bear. See his post in MD. Pre patch speculation etc.
Originally the orders were placed to push the price up. Very few people bothered to out bid him for several hours before patch release . He pushed the price up about 15m. No one else really bidding. A few minutes after the patch was release and eve went back on line he caved and dropped the orders to 950m. As you can see he has since decreased the orders to 849m.
Its not CCP. They want the price to drop as do I. Enjoy the cheap plex while it lasts |
General Muller
RpG-CONVICTS-FEDERATION
0
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 13:47:36 -
[1176] - Quote
dawww wrote:well if there are orders for 20000 plex that's around $280,000 worth, who has that kind of money to spend on a game....could just buy another house
Just ask Bill Gates. He saved CCP from near collapse a few years ago.... |
Makeleth Riatu Solette
I Want ISK Corp
43
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 14:23:46 -
[1177] - Quote
General Muller wrote:dawww wrote:well if there are orders for 20000 plex that's around $280,000 worth, who has that kind of money to spend on a game....could just buy another house Just ask Bill Gates. He saved CCP from near collapse a few years ago....
Not sure if sarcasm or legit. If legit, link please?
Need a loan? Look at my thread!
Mail me if you'd like some marketing advice or advice in general
|
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
737
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 18:48:46 -
[1178] - Quote
Aaron Honk wrote:Buzz Orti wrote:u3pog wrote:I think someone doesn't want PLEX below 949 999 999.99 ISK...There must be 20K pieces in buy orders at that price. 20,000 / 20% = 20,000 x 0.20 = 4,000 PLExes x 949,999,999.99 ISK (or 949.9m ISK, or 0.949b ISK) = The result is out of range. = 37,999,999.996m ISK. (In supposed profit, way over the cost of a Citadel.) = 37,999.99b ISK = 37.99T ISK, or enough for an XL Citadel + a Palatine / Palladium. Also, it is extremely hard to conspire to do good. These orders are bogus. You can confirm it by importing the prices in a sheet. (margin trading scam)
Why would someone waste lots of billions of ISK in broker fee for a scam? Plus I don't see how buy orders with min volume of 1 and such a low price is a scam...
To me this looks like stockpiling for the cold winter. You know, "winter is coming" and all that...Maybe a coallition which already lost a lot. It just looks too much for a single person's pocket. |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
108
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 21:39:07 -
[1179] - Quote
Keacha wrote:Varnik wrote: There are indeed a lot of orders (In Jita) at this price and I do wonder who is manipulating the market...
These orders went up a few hours before patch. I checked a few of them and they all belonged to Probag Bear. See his post in MD. Pre patch speculation etc. Originally the orders were placed to push the price up. Very few people bothered to out bid him for several hours before patch release . He pushed the price up about 15m. No one else really bidding. A few minutes after the patch was release and eve went back on line he caved and dropped the orders to 950m. As you can see he has since decreased the orders to 849m. Its not CCP. They want the price to drop as do I. Enjoy the cheap plex while it lasts
How did you check a few orders? |
Zahara Cody
Imperial Corrections Service.
256
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 23:22:32 -
[1180] - Quote
Why in the hell would he need 400 something bil if he has the cheese to put up 38 tril worth of buy orders?
Hating is free, that's why poor people do it the best.
|
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u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
737
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 23:26:33 -
[1181] - Quote
Zahara Cody wrote:Why in the hell would he need 400 something bil if he has the cheese to put up 38 tril worth of buy orders?
He should skip the PLEX thing and just save for the Palatine citadel, so he can get an achievement...oh wait, that's another game.
What a turn of events, eh? From 1350 mil right after the injector fever, down to less than a billion in 2 months. I wonder where we're headed next... |
Keacha
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2016.04.28 23:28:57 -
[1182] - Quote
I sold plex into different buy orders over a couple of hours using different characters.
I dont think it was a scam. More likely looking at using the patch to push up prices but realized the 3x increase in daily plex sales would stop any attempt to push prices up, Still worth a try and also make people notice. Could have done it to mask his real reason, He most likely still wants plex however will buy them cheaper when the price bottoms out.
Also being a regular buyer of plex it is likely that the real reason that the orders where put up directly before the patch was to save the 2%.brokers fee. (if that worked prepatch). It doesn't sound a lot but when the plex market returns profits of less than 1% a transaction it means he will triple his return per sale down the track. It is a reasonable use of the margin trading skill when dealing with volumns like that. He will be more competitive than any other trader for a while and can choose to dominate the plex market for a while if he likes. |
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
90
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 00:01:30 -
[1183] - Quote
Keacha wrote:I sold plex into different buy orders over a couple of hours using different characters. I dont think it was a scam. His market post to get extra isk however sounds like it was an attempt. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=478043&p=2 Maybe just looking at using the patch to push up prices using bulk orders and market force, but realized the 3x increase in daily plex sales would stop any attempt to push prices up, Still worth a try and also make people notice. Maybe did it to mask his real reason, He most likely still wants plex however will buy them cheaper when the price bottoms out. Also being a regular buyer of plex it is also likely that the real reason that the orders were put up directly before the patch was to save the 2%.brokers fee. (if that worked prepatch). It doesn't sound a lot but when the plex market returns profits of less than 1% a transaction it means he will triple his return per sale down the track. It is a reasonable use of the margin trading skill when dealing with volumns like that. He will be more competitive than any other trader for a while and can choose to dominate the plex market for a while if he likes. So many reason for doing this as a trader and thats just a few possible reasons. Knowledge is power.
But then how did I get the 38 trillion?.. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fq3abPnEEGE
:n all seriousness, it's not me. I only made a few small orders. The rest belong to someone I told the method to. His name... "Pear brobag" |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
309
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 00:43:17 -
[1184] - Quote
+37.99 T x 5 = 189.95 T
(builds enemy Quafe ship in a bottle...)
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
|
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
879
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 04:04:04 -
[1185] - Quote
Buzz Orti wrote:+37.99 T x 5 = 189.95 T
(builds enemy Quafe ship in a bottle...)
eve-marketdata Sellers 0.9 The Forge - Jita :5 units -952,900,000 ISK- 1 hour ago
eve-central Sell Orders Heimatar[-] 0.9 Rens VI - Moon 8 - Brutor Tribe Treasury :970,000,000.00 -1 unit -2016-05-05 -11 hours ago
Buzz, what in the world are you talking about
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
|
Keacha
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 16:04:26 -
[1186] - Quote
probag Bear wrote:But then how did I get the 38 trillion?.. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fq3abPnEEGE :n all seriousness, it's not me. I only made a few small orders. The rest belong to someone I told the method to. His name... "Pear brobag"
Ok I'll bite since people in MD don't seem to understand the game.
You didn't.. You sell to yourself 24% to remove the ISK from escrow. Then put another order up and repeat.
Knowledge is power.. Move along |
HeXxploiT
Little Red X
230
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 16:35:41 -
[1187] - Quote
Oh how I am tickled by all the rationals in this thread as of late..
The flying spaghetti monster accidentally sneezed and plex came out his rear resulting in a slight oversupply and therefor completely rational reason as to why plex prices are TEMPORARILY dropping.
Lol... |
Fydo Skor
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 16:51:18 -
[1188] - Quote
Keacha wrote:probag Bear wrote:But then how did I get the 38 trillion?.. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fq3abPnEEGE :n all seriousness, it's not me. I only made a few small orders. The rest belong to someone I told the method to. His name... "Pear brobag" Ok I'll bite since people in MD don't seem to understand the game. You didn't.. You sell to yourself 24% to remove the ISK from escrow. Then put another order up and repeat. Cost 95GTC. That spike of 8000 extra gtc on patch day was mainly you not the patch. Nice attempt to hide it though. Knowledge is power.. Move along
First, where did you get 95 from? Seems like it would cost a lot more than that.
Second, how does he plan to profit from this? I just see senseless money being thrown away to make a HUGE number of PLEX orders. I guess he can out margin people on PLEX until the end of time?
|
Keacha
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 18:43:09 -
[1189] - Quote
The cost of 95 GTC was just a 5 second guesstimate of what I felt it would cost. Its more like 75 GTC. Very rough math is below.
Before patch the lowest possible sales tax was 0.75% Before patch the lowest possible Broker Fee was 0.1875%
Placing order up only costed broker fee Selling to self with 'immediate' option only costs sale tax Therefore Total Transaction cost about 1%
Currently he has buy orders of 17908 units, however he would have had to sell about 25% of his orders back to himself to get rid of the isk that was tied up in margin trading and use that isk again. i.e. Sold about 4478 plex back to himself.
Therefore put up orders of about 17908+4478 = 22386 plex
22386plex * 1b isk * 0.1875% = 41b isk spent to put up the orders
Cost to sell back to himself would be 4478plex * 1b isk * 0.75% = 33.6b
Total cost is roughly 41b+33.6b = 74.6b or about 75 GTC
75b to someone trading in GTC is nothing. He will make an extra 20 mil per GTC he sells due to the changes in tax/broker rates. Which means he will get his isk cost back in 3750 plexs sales. lets say he does that really really slow and takes a month....
He can do the same over the next 3.77 months with a profit of 283b and all it cost him was 75b in set up money.
Not bad for 4.7 months and that is if he takes it slow could done much quicker. If he bluffs and pushes the price up using his orders as he goes he could make a lot more. I'm always amazed that so many people don't understand trading better.
Knowledge is power...
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4839
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 19:16:07 -
[1190] - Quote
Buzz Orti wrote:u3pog wrote:I think someone doesn't want PLEX below 949 999 999.99 ISK...There must be 20K pieces in buy orders at that price. 20,000 / 20% = 20,000 x 0.20 = 4,000 PLExes x 949,999,999.99 ISK (or 949.9m ISK, or 0.949b ISK) = The result is out of range. = 37,999,999.996m ISK. (In supposed profit, way over the cost of a Citadel.) = 37,999.99b ISK = 37.99T ISK, or enough for an XL Citadel + a Palatine / Palladium. Also, it is extremely hard to conspire to do good.
20,000/20% = 20,000/.2 = 20,000/(1/5) = 20,000*5=100,000.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4839
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 19:26:15 -
[1191] - Quote
Fydo Skor wrote:Keacha wrote:probag Bear wrote:But then how did I get the 38 trillion?.. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fq3abPnEEGE :n all seriousness, it's not me. I only made a few small orders. The rest belong to someone I told the method to. His name... "Pear brobag" Ok I'll bite since people in MD don't seem to understand the game. You didn't.. You sell to yourself 24% to remove the ISK from escrow. Then put another order up and repeat. Cost 95GTC. That spike of 8000 extra gtc on patch day was mainly you not the patch. Nice attempt to hide it though. Knowledge is power.. Move along First, where did you get 95 from? Seems like it would cost a lot more than that. Second, how does he plan to profit from this? I just see senseless money being thrown away to make a HUGE number of PLEX orders. I guess he can out margin people on PLEX until the end of time?
He is hoping the new taxes/fees will drive up the price, which is probably will.
However, the risk is that the price for some other reason does not drop below the price he bought them for. With the number of PLEX being talked about it will likely take awhile to unwind that position and realize the profits.
Oh, and this is not manipulation it is more accurately described as speculation.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
108
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 22:06:41 -
[1192] - Quote
probag Bear wrote:But then how did I get the 38 trillion?.. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fq3abPnEEGE :n all seriousness, it's not me. I only made a few small orders. The rest belong to someone I told the method to. His name... "Pear brobag"
You did like that
https://imgur.com/a/8Tps5 |
Zahara Cody
Imperial Corrections Service.
258
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 22:20:34 -
[1193] - Quote
Its definitely probear and his partner who have put up all of these margin Plex buy orders. Hope it works out .
Hating is free, that's why poor people do it the best.
|
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
90
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 22:21:32 -
[1194] - Quote
Keacha wrote:The cost of 95 GTC was just a 5 second guesstimate of what I felt it would cost. Its more like 75 GTC. Very rough math is below.
Before patch the lowest possible sales tax was 0.75% Before patch the lowest possible Broker Fee was 0.1875%
Placing order up only cost broker fee Selling to self with 'immediate' option only costs sale tax Therefore Total Transaction cost about 1%
Currently he has buy orders of 17908 units, however he would have had to sell about 25% of his orders back to himself to get rid of the isk that was tied up in margin trading and use that isk again. i.e. Sold about 4478 plex back to himself.
Therefore put up orders of about 17908+4478 = 22386 plex
22386plex * 1b isk * 0.1875% = 41b isk spent to put up the orders
Cost to sell back to himself would be 4478plex * 1b isk * 0.75% = 33.6b
Total cost is roughly 41b+33.6b = 74.6b or about 75 GTC
75b to someone trading in GTC is nothing. He will make an extra 20 mil per GTC he sells due to the changes in tax/broker rates. Which means he will get his isk cost back in 3750 plexs sales. lets say he does that really really slow and takes a month....
He can do the same over the next 3.77 months with a profit of 283b and all it cost him was 75b in set up money.
Not bad for 4.7 months and that is if he takes it slow. It could done much much quicker. If he bluffs and pushes the price up using his orders as he goes he could make a lot more. I'm always amazed that so many people don't understand trading better or see opportunities more. I missed this one because I don't play like I used to. My bad.
Knowledge is power...
Someone finally got it, and it was someone who didn't even receive all the hints I was broadcasting.
|
Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
108
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 22:47:47 -
[1195] - Quote
Some data about all of this
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GewsCo1OYLTpTU_B8Pn2c3ap3dUG1CPQkmf32hqIzoo/edit?usp=sharing
As you can see, one order was canceled or busted |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
879
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 23:04:36 -
[1196] - Quote
Or sold
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
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Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5800
|
Posted - 2016.05.01 15:02:49 -
[1197] - Quote
I'm into the PLEX market now, just spent an 11 figure sum buying them. In for the medium to long term hold.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6359218#post6359218 was my reasoning months ago. I predicted the present dip (expected it to not be as sharp as it was) and made myself liquid in expectation of it.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
322
|
Posted - 2016.05.03 16:40:23 -
[1198] - Quote
Rhivre wrote:Buzz Orti wrote: #1180 - 2016-04-29 00:43:17 UTC +37.99 T x 5 = 189.95 T
(builds enemy Quafe ship in a bottle...)
eve-marketdata Sellers 0.9 The Forge - Jita :5 units -952,900,000 ISK- 1 hour ago
eve-central Sell Orders Heimatar[-] 0.9 Rens VI - Moon 8 - Brutor Tribe Treasury :970,000,000.00 -1 unit -2016-05-05 -11 hours ago
Buzz, what in the world are you talking about Why does it take 30 minutes to 1 hour to load the last update? Because all the new rooms in the citadel that are going to be blowed up have to be loaded before it can start...
And I'd really like for the accounts page to load so that I can post the PLEx sale offer rates.
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
|
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
329
|
Posted - 2016.05.05 11:32:21 -
[1199] - Quote
http://imgur.com/stxjsOH 1 PLEX $19.95
2 PLEX Save $4.91 $34.99
6 PLEX Save $14.73 $104.97
12 PLEX Save $29.46 $209.94
28 PLEX Save $68.74 $489.86
Can you see the difference? 12 and 13 PLEX is more saving and 30 to 28 PLEX is less saving...
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4846
|
Posted - 2016.05.05 22:33:18 -
[1200] - Quote
Buzz Orti wrote:http://imgur.com/stxjsOH 1 PLEX $19.95
2 PLEX Save $4.91 $34.99
6 PLEX Save $14.73 $104.97
12 PLEX Save $29.46 $209.94
28 PLEX Save $68.74 $489.86
Can you see the difference? 12 and 13 PLEX is more saving and 30 to 28 PLEX is less saving...
Uhmmm what? 68.74/28 = 24.55.
29.46/12 = 2.455. Looks the same to me.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
|
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Veine Miromme
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2016.05.21 01:37:50 -
[1201] - Quote
back down to 890m |
Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
123
|
Posted - 2016.05.23 13:24:32 -
[1202] - Quote
Going up ? |
Jinto Rinn
Stratton Oakmont Trading
0
|
Posted - 2016.05.23 14:40:48 -
[1203] - Quote
Maybe the people crashing the price have run out of plex ? |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
335
|
Posted - 2016.05.24 21:48:02 -
[1204] - Quote
on eve-central.com Sell Orders (Buy Orders) 905.0 m ISK
Buy Orders 893.7 m ISK buy
m = million in ISK value.
Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
|
Raz Muesin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2016.05.25 03:02:24 -
[1205] - Quote
I was told this would be the end? |
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy Caldari State
110
|
Posted - 2016.05.25 03:27:23 -
[1206] - Quote
PLEX cannot be stopped! |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
241
|
Posted - 2016.05.25 12:29:30 -
[1207] - Quote
This thread cannot be stopped!
EDIT: for context
Xanato Kaso wrote:Here is last comment from previous thread before it locked due to max posts. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=482609&find=unread |
Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
125
|
Posted - 2016.05.25 20:23:03 -
[1208] - Quote
For the first time in 4 month the 5d average crossed line the 20d average |
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