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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:51:00 - [31] Originally by: DeadDuck Looks great, especially the wcs nerf and I would be excited to hear about the ecm changes. No news regarding the Nosferatus... Are they gonna contnue with the same stats ? Thanks No changes to nosferatu in Kali 1. _______________


Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:51:00 - [32] Originally by: Kamikaaazi tux, is hull allso going to te increased by 50%? I really hope its just shield and armor. All hitpoints, including hull _______________

d'hofren Queens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:52:00 - [33] Edited by: d''hofren on 19/10/2006 12:08:23 Ummmm, I am really worried about arty now. Any thoughts on how this HP boost will effect High Alpha weapons with long reloads / Low ROF? We all know that the only real use in Arty now is due to it's high initial damage, after time all other long range weapons draw ahead in sutained damage.
Gripen Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:55:00 - [34] Originally by: Tuxford Shield extenders and plates increased by 50% That's insane! Even now most ships in PvP use passive tanks. Isn't it better to improve repairers\shield boosters? With previous extender\plate boost we just reached balance between them and hardeners. Now fitting any kind of active tank would be waste of slots. =(
Chode Rizoum Minmatar Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:00:00 - [35] ye didten think about my artys.. :/
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:00:00 - [36] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 19/10/2006 12:03:17 Tux, don't shirk this issue, don't ignore it. Don't pretend it doesn't exist. Please. I'm not going to bother trying to explain in depth just how bad a change increasing base hitpoints is. It doesn't solve the blob problem, it only makes it worse. If focus fire doesn't kill targets anymore, then people will bring more ships to make sure it does. Although the overall effect of +50% hitpoints on a 50 man BS blob shooting you is negligible. This change means two things; the first is a nerf to small group combat. Small groups attacking larger ones are pressed for time, trying to kill opposing ships before they get away, or before they bring in even more friends and the odds become un-workable. You're driving the game more into blobbishness. This is a bad thing. Secondly, though, and as most people will have guessed by now here's the meat of my problem; with the previous HP buff being a pretty heavy nerf to artillery, this second, even LARGER hp buff, is going to finish artillery as a viable weapon. Already suffering from being the shortest range of long ranged weapons (thanks to T2 ammo), and having the worst tracking, we've always had to contend with having the worst DPS. This is a huge problem, but has always been worked around by the fact that we have great short-term DPS thanks to our alpha strike. The effectiveness of an alpha strike is inversely proportional to the hitpoints of it's target, as you and everyone else well knows. Alpha strike is becoming less and less important to any meaningful combat (ie, not blob combat). So with the worst tracking, the worst range, and the worst DPS, exactly what is the point of using artillery after this new change? You (CCP) have been saying "we're looking at it/aware of it/etc" since I started using these forums 15 months ago, and all we've had in that time is a poor increase to lower tier artillery that really solved nothing, and a heavy nerf, now followed by an even more serious one. Looking at this issue "at some point" won't do; an artillery change needs to be done at the same time of this ill-contrived hitpoint change. Tux, don't shirk this issue, don't ignore it. Don't pretend it doesn't exist. Please. Sort it out. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford. [/center]
Sian Williams Minmatar oc3M	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:14:00 - [37] Funny that Tux didn't reply to the artillery issue yet. I think he didn't think about that one when he made the changes. ;p
BaneMaker JuBa Corp	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:16:00 - [38] Edited by: BaneMaker on 19/10/2006 12:18:18 Originally by: Tuxford bonus of covert ops ships changed so it reduces cpu need of covert ops cloaking device from 98% to 100% Does this include the force recons as well?
Pehova Mindtriq Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:17:00 - [39] Edited by: Pehova Mindtriq on 19/10/2006 12:20:04 Originally by: Tuxford Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 Thank you! Finally wcs are being nerfed. Celes/Toxin vs BOB
paeronsoda	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:18:00 - [40] This is bad for amarr, longer fights = more cap use. My geddon can sustain its cap for its guns ONLY about 3-4 mins with lvl5 in everything so this is great. With everyone fitting nos that number goes down drastically. Lasers need cap reduction, as someone proposed make the controlled burst skill 7.5% or 10% per lvl insted of 5%. Then the gallente will be happy too i guess.

Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:19:00 - [41] Oh yeah ammo... If everyone has 50% more HP now, can we get a 33% reduction in ammo volume and resource cost to compensate the need for 50% more ammo? :D --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:19:00 - [42] Um.. wow to a lot of stuff - WCS nurf not the least of em - but... 2006.10.19 13:16:00 COMBAT Tuxford perfectly strikes All Artillery wrecking for FATALITY. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:20:00 - [43] RIP: Stabbabond. May you rot in hell. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
d'hofren Queens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:21:00 - [44] Originally by: Sian Williams Funny that Tux didn't reply to the artillery issue yet. I think he didn't think about that one when he made the changes. ;p That is why we raised it, we don't want I WIN guns, just something that holds it's own compared to the other long range weapons....
Morenia Notton	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:24:00 - [45] Edited by: Morenia Notton on 19/10/2006 12:26:21 Originally by: d'hofren Originally by: Sian Williams Funny that Tux didn't reply to the artillery issue yet. I think he didn't think about that one when he made the changes. ;p That is why we raised it, we don't want I WIN guns, just something that holds it's own compared to the other long range weapons.... I know i'm in the middle of training for t2 large arties and i'm thinking about stopping it. :/ edit: stupid alt, /me Sian Williams
Scrofalitic One Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:25:00 - [46] /me strokes his 1400 II's and weeps quietly in the corner.... Guess I really will have to get around to training T2 AC's now. Bye bye sniping, bye bye.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:26:00 - [47] Originally by: Scrofalitic One Bye bye Artillerysniping, bye bye. ....and all hail Rokh, IWin button supreme. It's quite sad that my 5m SP Caldari alt is now a more viable PvP choice than my 20m SP main. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford. [/center]
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:27:00 - [48] Originally by: Alex Tremayne RIP: Stabbabond. May you rot in hell. Oh yes. Oh yes, yes yes yes dances ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Rin Eyre	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:28:00 - [49] I want to hear more... I don't loose all hope for artillery and overall hit-and-run Minmatar tactics (Vagabond turning into several hundred million bait now? funny Stabber otno laughable pitance?)... maybe T2 ammo will be in line with it? I STILL HOPE DAMIT! ...but right now Minmatar loosing almost all interesting points except been "hard more". Yeah, more like "hardcore" now.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:31:00 - [50] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Alex Tremayne RIP: Stabbabond. May you rot in hell. Oh yes. Oh yes, yes yes yes dances indulges in a little happy dancing too Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort

Ghitza Backup Squad	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:43:00 - [51] I hope those changes will make battles longer. Thank you. We need longer battles not short ones like max 2 mins. Longer fight = more fun, simple.
Mordocik Bad Karma.	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:52:00 - [52] Edited by: Mordocik on 19/10/2006 13:56:50 Edited by: Mordocik on 19/10/2006 12:56:52 Edited by: Mordocik on 19/10/2006 12:52:28 I'll take some time to reply in depth to some issues that I see with raising the amount of armour and shield recharge on ships, hopefully you'll explain your reasoning or point out the flaw in mine. It's clear that for your own reasons you have a big problem with the current length of battles. In fact specifically your issue would seem to be with large fleet battles. Unfortunately there are no simple answers to stopping something from dying quickly if 30 people all focus on it, and many would argue that that is as it should be. Regardless of my own personal opinions about it let me point out some problems with just raising the hitpoints with out regard to other aspects of the game. I'll also not just be critical and supply you with some possible solutions. Problems Making any changes game wide at this point in EVE effects EVERYTHING, nothing works in isolation. Given that have you thoroughly thought through the problems associated with boosting hitpoints? Some obvious problems are all weapons that rely on high alpha strike to be effective (Artillery comes to mind) become effectively useless as their alpha strike is now mitigated by the higher damage absorbtion and as there overall DPS is poor they become largely useless weapons compared to say weapons that are designed to do lower, but more consistant damage. Subtle differences kick in as well, if you envisage fights lasting for 5-30minutes then you'll need to change ammo size or cargo size as most weapons, cruiser size or larger, simply can't carry enough ammunition to fight for that long. Other problems include capacitor regeneration over that period of time. Many ships, gallente and amarr in particular, require cap to be functional, either to tank or to fire. Given that and the fact that balance for cap usage has been around the current model you'll need to rethink all the interactions at that level. The list goes on but I hope you see the real and game altering problems that you introduce with a sweeping change like this proposed one. If you go down that path you'll need to be VERY careful to fix massive imbalances that you cause in a timely fashion or risk alienating a lot of your playerbase. Solutions What strikes me about a lot of your current problems, things like ewar and short battles, is that these problems largely stem from lack of support classes in EVE. Yes there are command ships and logistics but when was the last time, outside of artificial scenarios like the pvp tourneys, have you seen a logistic used in the role it was meant to be used as? EVE in it's current state does not have a support class and this is, in my opinion, causing a lot of your problems. Some possible solutions would be to give logistics area effect capabilities like armour / shield repairing, you could even give them some race specific stuff so that, say for example, a caldari logistic was able to boost the sensor strength of all of the ships in it's gang or within a 10km radius of it. The possibilities are there and I'm currently writing up a post about making logistics viable, but I really see getting more use out of the ships that you have in game that are meant for these roles as a better alternative then just bumping all ships effective hitpoints as that breaks the balance in an irrevocable manner. EDIT - The thread I said I'd make :http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=413516
pardux Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:55:00 - [53] >_> geddon with 8x 1600mm tungsten = ~60k armor geddon with 8x 1600mm tungsten&slave set = ~90k armor fun fun fun \o/
Hulemand Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:00:00 - [54] Does the hitpoint increase also affect NPCs? (Really dosn't want to use more time killing NPCs
infraX Caldari Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:05:00 - [55] Tuxford, have you considered the implications of a simple hit point increase in the context of ships that are designed to do a large amount of damage, very quickly and not for a very long time in order to kill the opponent? I'm thinking of blaster ships and the armageddon mainly. It might seem obvious that a simnple hp buff is a fair way of doing things but it does HEAVILY buff capless weapons with a focus on tanking being the i-win button. Remember we have already been through one 50% increase, another is bound to offset these type of ships even more (i.e. running out of cap before they can do enough damage to the enemy and then sitting there capless for the rest of the fight while projectiles/missiles/drones slowly pick them apart.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:06:00 - [56] Originally by: Hulemand Does the hitpoint increase also affect NPCs? (Really dosn't want to use more time killing NPCs Good question. I would hope not, since the players only get a HP boost, but no additional tanking. That boost is good for maybe a minute of more life. That means a lot in PvP, but is totally meaningless in PvE. But if you have to tank the enemies for 50% longer, some mission will become quite too hard, especially for people not using gist equipment. And of course you will need more ammo than your ship can carry for some missions too. That would be kind of stupid... --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:08:00 - [57] I think TUX posted that they are messing with the tec2 ammo ... and people are already complaining about artillery... If we still dont know all the changes how are you guys altready saying that "he didnt think of that" .... I love all the changes untill now .... only the fact of nerf WCS and knowing that the ECM is going to have a change pleases me (it can not be worst then it is). The fact id that the usual NOS+JAM+DRONES seems to be facing the last days. With the boost on HP the drones will take longer to kill something, and if you want to kill your pray fast you WILL have to fit guns in higher slots and not the usual NOS. With the ECM nerf (I hope) PVP will turn to be what it always should be. A competition between 2 player to see who has better fit/skills/tactic ... not the one that locks faster to jam.
D'onryu Shoqui Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:09:00 - [58] will all DRONES & FIGHTERS get a hitpoints bonus aswell? sounds like they should imo ------------------------- I am a nobody of IMP my views are my own.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:14:00 - [59] Originally by: DeadDuck I think TUX posted that they are messing with the tec2 ammo ... and people are already complaining about artillery... If we still dont know all the changes how are you guys altready saying that "he didnt think of that" How exactly would any change to T2 ammo make arty using T1 ammo competitive again? You DO realize that there is a world beyond T2? --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Max Teranous Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:18:00 - [60] Interesting. With the increase in hp's, could we also get an increase in the time you have to wait between aggressing and docking/jumping ? It's possible now to go for a quick kill, then tank the fire until the timer expires and you can redock. This quite boring station hugging can become easier and hence more prevalent if the timers are also not increased comparitively to hp's. Max --------------------



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