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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:19:00 - [1] I've been replying to the forums today. I'm just gonna list some of the smaller tweaks and changes here. Ships Powergrid of Sacrilege, Deimos and Muninn increased to 1100MW, 950MW and 1100MW respectively CPU of Sacrilege and Deimos increased to 350tf for both ships CPU of Anathema, Helios and Cheetah increased to 280tf, 290tf and 275tf respectively bonus of covert ops ships changed so it reduces cpu need of covert ops cloaking device from 98% to 100% Agility of battlecruisers and command ships boosted by 20% Nighthawk's explosion velocity changed to launcher rate of fire bonus Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors I didn't really check it but I'll probably increase shield recharge rate by about 50% as well just to be on the safe side Modules Inertia stabilizers give decrease in mass as well as agility and give a penalty to signature radius Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 Super weapon damage increased by 50% as well Shield extenders and plates increased by 50% ECM changes - I'm blogging about that one, hopefully comes later today I think this all of the stuff that is not big enought to deserve its own post. Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later. _______________

Gwennec	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:30:00 - [2] Edited by: Gwennec on 19/10/2006 10:30:55 Quote: Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors Does that affect on plates and extenders too? nice change overall liked it :9
Chekapo	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:37:00 - [3] Not bad at all.. hitpoints might be fun.
Palitir Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:41:00 - [4] Edited by: Palitir on 19/10/2006 10:47:36 WCS Nerf ... ECM changes ... Joygasm Covert Ops affects both Recon and Covert Frigs? ========================= Sponsored to bring you grief by the Bounty Channel. <t20\|Home> i'll TEABAG EM
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:41:00 - [5] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/10/2006 10:41:01 Still disappointed by lack of Khanid changes, but OMG WCS NERF - me love :)
Donmadefy	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:42:00 - [6] > I didn't really check it but I'll probably increase shield recharge > rate by about 50% as well just to be on the safe side On all ships? Pottsey's gonna love you :)

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:43:00 - [7] Originally by: Gwennec Edited by: Gwennec on 19/10/2006 10:30:55 Quote: Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors Does that affect on plates and extenders too? nice change overall liked it :9 bah forgot to post about plates and extenders. Yes they are boosted by 50%. _______________


Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:44:00 - [8] Originally by: Donmadefy > I didn't really check it but I'll probably increase shield recharge > rate by about 50% as well just to be on the safe side On all ships? Pottsey's gonna love you :) You do realize that I meant recharge time by 50%. That means that the peak rate does not change at all. _______________


Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:45:00 - [9] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/10/2006 10:41:01 Still disappointed by lack of Khanid changes, but OMG WCS NERF - me love :) Like I said in the Khanid MK2 thread I've gotten some very postive feedback on the change but its not gonna happen in Kali 1. _______________

Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:47:00 - [10] Originally by: Tuxford Like I said in the Khanid MK2 thread I've gotten some very postive feedback on the change but its not gonna happen in Kali 1. Havent checked it for quite a while OMG OMG OMG my khanid soul just cant wait


Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:48:00 - [11] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Tuxford Like I said in the Khanid MK2 thread I've gotten some very postive feedback on the change but its not gonna happen in Kali 1. Havent checked it for quite a while OMG OMG OMG my khanid soul just cant wait Still not making any promises but it should be fairly well known that I like the proposed change. Of course I'm not the only one that has a say in it _______________

Donmadefy	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:49:00 - [12] Originally by: Tuxford You do realize that I meant recharge time by 50%. That means that the peak rate does not change at all. Ah. Your first post said recharge rate, and above you said recharge time. Sorry I misunderstood... An increase to recharge rate is good (the rate that the shield is recharged is increased) , but an increase to recharge time is bad (the time it takes to recharge fully). Do I understand it right now?

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:52:00 - [13] Originally by: Donmadefy Originally by: Tuxford You do realize that I meant recharge time by 50%. That means that the peak rate does not change at all. Ah. Your first post said recharge rate, and above you said recharge time. Sorry I misunderstood... An increase to recharge rate is good (the rate that the shield is recharged is increased) , but an increase to recharge time is bad (the time it takes to recharge fully). Do I understand it right now? You understand it right. The problem is we use so many times rate when we should use time. It is of course wrong but I can't really shake it off. It gets worse with agility though, in EVE its better to have less of it _______________

Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:53:00 - [14] 50% more hitpoints? Can we get a bit of a boost for artillery too then seeing how their advantage of high alpha is pretty much being negated and their disadvantage of low DPS is being emphasized by that? --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Aloysius Knight Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:56:00 - [15] YEAH HI LETS MAKE ARTY EVEN MORE WORSE BY UPING HP AND NOT BOOSTING THE DAMG OUTPUT OF THEM! YEAH GREAT IDEA!! KALI AKA NERF MINMATAR EVEN MORE!
Durethia Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Tuxford Shield extenders and plates increased by 50% EEEEEEXXXXTTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEMMMMEEEEEE!!!!! :] I lub you Tuxferd!!! Now, about the agility of the Deimos!!!! Don't make me get my stick out!
swamp zyro	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:01:00 - [17] Yeah seriously, what about artilleries now?
Denrace Amarr Psykotic Dreams Barracudas.	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:02:00 - [18] Originally by: Tuxford Powergrid of Sacrilege, Deimos and Muninn increased to 1100MW, 950MW and 1100MW respectively CPU of Sacrilege and Deimos increased to 350tf for both ships Hiya Tux, some nice changes overall. The HP increase should help make combat longer and more fun! Great. However, I still feel the Sacrielge needs some reworking. Hacs are supposed to be specialised ships, and every race but Amarr get 2 distinctly different ones. Amarr get two that are very similar, a Zealot gunboat and the Sacrilege - a poor mans zealot. I dont understand the reasoning for making the Sacrilege just a subpar Zealot. If its going to be a damage sponge it needs damage sponging bonuses, like a rep amount, HP and cap capacity/recharge. It cant be that difficult to give the Sacrilege a role can it? Den ________________________________________
pardux Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:06:00 - [19] Edited by: pardux on 19/10/2006 11:07:25 thx for nerfing howitzers. guess i'll fly my geddon more now =\| but ♥ for the sac change and cov op change and ofcourse wcs ♥ edit: and muninn♥
swamp zyro	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:08:00 - [20] Oh god, imagine a ferox with LSEII's now :D

Donmadefy	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:09:00 - [21] Originally by: Tuxford You understand it right. The problem is we use so many times rate when we should use time. It is of course wrong but I can't really shake it off. It gets worse with agility though, in EVE its better to have less of it Agility is better when it's lower? ok, trying to get my head around that! I would have thought a higher agility is better, like tracking speed - the time it takes to rotate the ship to the direction it's trying to go :) I can appreciate the complexities of standardising the language across skills/ships that describe modifications to the stats. Can the player base help decipher inconsistencies by using Bug Reports for descriptions that could be explained in a clearer way?
Directive	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:14:00 - [22] Originally by: Donmadefy Originally by: Tuxford You understand it right. The problem is we use so many times rate when we should use time. It is of course wrong but I can't really shake it off. It gets worse with agility though, in EVE its better to have less of it Agility is better when it's lower? ok, trying to get my head around that! I would have thought a higher agility is better, like tracking speed - the time it takes to rotate the ship to the direction it's trying to go :) Think of it as a divisor, it'll make sense. In the end.
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:16:00 - [23] another great day vs stabmonkeys!! Best news ever!! BTW: UDIE, im willing to take your T2 siege launchers and bcs II-s if you decide to quit eve now.
Chode Rizoum Minmatar Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:17:00 - [24] Edited by: Chode Rizoum on 19/10/2006 12:03:52 dude tuxford.. i love you... if i was an arab.. i would totaly ask your hand in marriage PS: but arty nerf sux..
solidshot Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:17:00 - [25] Effectively means no more arty use for the forseable future then unless you give them a serious dps boost, also means the new teir3 minnie bs will be even more gimped in fleet battles
Awox Minmatar Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:31:00 - [26] Ah c'mon I just started getting used to having sub-par damage with Minmatar, now you go and give everyone more HP? I guess I wont be training Minmatar Cruiser lvl5 for a Muninn anymore. Oh, and a slight shield recharge rate penalty for WCS would be nice too. This really craps on stabbed up Stabbers/Vagabonds, Ferox/Nighthawk, etc. But some of that sounds pretty cool. - Logoffski Name & SHAME
Narusegawa Naru Gallente Spectrum Solutions INC Kith of Venal	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:33:00 - [27] What exactly does that mean for shields? Better or worse? -- WARNING: It is a violation of federal law to use me in a way inconsistent with my labelling. I am dangerous to humans and domestic animals. Please avoid contact with your eyes and cloth

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:34:00 - [28] Originally by: Narusegawa Naru What exactly does that mean for shields? Better or worse? More shields, same peak recharge rate. _______________

Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:44:00 - [29] tux, is hull allso going to te increased by 50%? I really hope its just shield and armor.
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:45:00 - [30] Looks great, especially the wcs nerf and I would be excited to hear about the ecm changes. No news regarding the Nosferatus... Are they gonna contnue with the same stats ? Thanks


Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:51:00 - [31] Originally by: DeadDuck Looks great, especially the wcs nerf and I would be excited to hear about the ecm changes. No news regarding the Nosferatus... Are they gonna contnue with the same stats ? Thanks No changes to nosferatu in Kali 1. _______________


Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:51:00 - [32] Originally by: Kamikaaazi tux, is hull allso going to te increased by 50%? I really hope its just shield and armor. All hitpoints, including hull _______________

d'hofren Queens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:52:00 - [33] Edited by: d''hofren on 19/10/2006 12:08:23 Ummmm, I am really worried about arty now. Any thoughts on how this HP boost will effect High Alpha weapons with long reloads / Low ROF? We all know that the only real use in Arty now is due to it's high initial damage, after time all other long range weapons draw ahead in sutained damage.
Gripen Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:55:00 - [34] Originally by: Tuxford Shield extenders and plates increased by 50% That's insane! Even now most ships in PvP use passive tanks. Isn't it better to improve repairers\shield boosters? With previous extender\plate boost we just reached balance between them and hardeners. Now fitting any kind of active tank would be waste of slots. =(
Chode Rizoum Minmatar Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:00:00 - [35] ye didten think about my artys.. :/
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:00:00 - [36] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 19/10/2006 12:03:17 Tux, don't shirk this issue, don't ignore it. Don't pretend it doesn't exist. Please. I'm not going to bother trying to explain in depth just how bad a change increasing base hitpoints is. It doesn't solve the blob problem, it only makes it worse. If focus fire doesn't kill targets anymore, then people will bring more ships to make sure it does. Although the overall effect of +50% hitpoints on a 50 man BS blob shooting you is negligible. This change means two things; the first is a nerf to small group combat. Small groups attacking larger ones are pressed for time, trying to kill opposing ships before they get away, or before they bring in even more friends and the odds become un-workable. You're driving the game more into blobbishness. This is a bad thing. Secondly, though, and as most people will have guessed by now here's the meat of my problem; with the previous HP buff being a pretty heavy nerf to artillery, this second, even LARGER hp buff, is going to finish artillery as a viable weapon. Already suffering from being the shortest range of long ranged weapons (thanks to T2 ammo), and having the worst tracking, we've always had to contend with having the worst DPS. This is a huge problem, but has always been worked around by the fact that we have great short-term DPS thanks to our alpha strike. The effectiveness of an alpha strike is inversely proportional to the hitpoints of it's target, as you and everyone else well knows. Alpha strike is becoming less and less important to any meaningful combat (ie, not blob combat). So with the worst tracking, the worst range, and the worst DPS, exactly what is the point of using artillery after this new change? You (CCP) have been saying "we're looking at it/aware of it/etc" since I started using these forums 15 months ago, and all we've had in that time is a poor increase to lower tier artillery that really solved nothing, and a heavy nerf, now followed by an even more serious one. Looking at this issue "at some point" won't do; an artillery change needs to be done at the same time of this ill-contrived hitpoint change. Tux, don't shirk this issue, don't ignore it. Don't pretend it doesn't exist. Please. Sort it out. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford. [/center]
Sian Williams Minmatar oc3M	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:14:00 - [37] Funny that Tux didn't reply to the artillery issue yet. I think he didn't think about that one when he made the changes. ;p
BaneMaker JuBa Corp	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:16:00 - [38] Edited by: BaneMaker on 19/10/2006 12:18:18 Originally by: Tuxford bonus of covert ops ships changed so it reduces cpu need of covert ops cloaking device from 98% to 100% Does this include the force recons as well?
Pehova Mindtriq Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:17:00 - [39] Edited by: Pehova Mindtriq on 19/10/2006 12:20:04 Originally by: Tuxford Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 Thank you! Finally wcs are being nerfed. Celes/Toxin vs BOB
paeronsoda	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:18:00 - [40] This is bad for amarr, longer fights = more cap use. My geddon can sustain its cap for its guns ONLY about 3-4 mins with lvl5 in everything so this is great. With everyone fitting nos that number goes down drastically. Lasers need cap reduction, as someone proposed make the controlled burst skill 7.5% or 10% per lvl insted of 5%. Then the gallente will be happy too i guess.

Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:19:00 - [41] Oh yeah ammo... If everyone has 50% more HP now, can we get a 33% reduction in ammo volume and resource cost to compensate the need for 50% more ammo? :D --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:19:00 - [42] Um.. wow to a lot of stuff - WCS nurf not the least of em - but... 2006.10.19 13:16:00 COMBAT Tuxford perfectly strikes All Artillery wrecking for FATALITY. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:20:00 - [43] RIP: Stabbabond. May you rot in hell. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
d'hofren Queens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:21:00 - [44] Originally by: Sian Williams Funny that Tux didn't reply to the artillery issue yet. I think he didn't think about that one when he made the changes. ;p That is why we raised it, we don't want I WIN guns, just something that holds it's own compared to the other long range weapons....
Morenia Notton	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:24:00 - [45] Edited by: Morenia Notton on 19/10/2006 12:26:21 Originally by: d'hofren Originally by: Sian Williams Funny that Tux didn't reply to the artillery issue yet. I think he didn't think about that one when he made the changes. ;p That is why we raised it, we don't want I WIN guns, just something that holds it's own compared to the other long range weapons.... I know i'm in the middle of training for t2 large arties and i'm thinking about stopping it. :/ edit: stupid alt, /me Sian Williams
Scrofalitic One Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:25:00 - [46] /me strokes his 1400 II's and weeps quietly in the corner.... Guess I really will have to get around to training T2 AC's now. Bye bye sniping, bye bye.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:26:00 - [47] Originally by: Scrofalitic One Bye bye Artillerysniping, bye bye. ....and all hail Rokh, IWin button supreme. It's quite sad that my 5m SP Caldari alt is now a more viable PvP choice than my 20m SP main. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford. [/center]
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:27:00 - [48] Originally by: Alex Tremayne RIP: Stabbabond. May you rot in hell. Oh yes. Oh yes, yes yes yes dances ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Rin Eyre	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:28:00 - [49] I want to hear more... I don't loose all hope for artillery and overall hit-and-run Minmatar tactics (Vagabond turning into several hundred million bait now? funny Stabber otno laughable pitance?)... maybe T2 ammo will be in line with it? I STILL HOPE DAMIT! ...but right now Minmatar loosing almost all interesting points except been "hard more". Yeah, more like "hardcore" now.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:31:00 - [50] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Alex Tremayne RIP: Stabbabond. May you rot in hell. Oh yes. Oh yes, yes yes yes dances indulges in a little happy dancing too Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort

Ghitza Backup Squad	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:43:00 - [51] I hope those changes will make battles longer. Thank you. We need longer battles not short ones like max 2 mins. Longer fight = more fun, simple.
Mordocik Bad Karma.	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:52:00 - [52] Edited by: Mordocik on 19/10/2006 13:56:50 Edited by: Mordocik on 19/10/2006 12:56:52 Edited by: Mordocik on 19/10/2006 12:52:28 I'll take some time to reply in depth to some issues that I see with raising the amount of armour and shield recharge on ships, hopefully you'll explain your reasoning or point out the flaw in mine. It's clear that for your own reasons you have a big problem with the current length of battles. In fact specifically your issue would seem to be with large fleet battles. Unfortunately there are no simple answers to stopping something from dying quickly if 30 people all focus on it, and many would argue that that is as it should be. Regardless of my own personal opinions about it let me point out some problems with just raising the hitpoints with out regard to other aspects of the game. I'll also not just be critical and supply you with some possible solutions. Problems Making any changes game wide at this point in EVE effects EVERYTHING, nothing works in isolation. Given that have you thoroughly thought through the problems associated with boosting hitpoints? Some obvious problems are all weapons that rely on high alpha strike to be effective (Artillery comes to mind) become effectively useless as their alpha strike is now mitigated by the higher damage absorbtion and as there overall DPS is poor they become largely useless weapons compared to say weapons that are designed to do lower, but more consistant damage. Subtle differences kick in as well, if you envisage fights lasting for 5-30minutes then you'll need to change ammo size or cargo size as most weapons, cruiser size or larger, simply can't carry enough ammunition to fight for that long. Other problems include capacitor regeneration over that period of time. Many ships, gallente and amarr in particular, require cap to be functional, either to tank or to fire. Given that and the fact that balance for cap usage has been around the current model you'll need to rethink all the interactions at that level. The list goes on but I hope you see the real and game altering problems that you introduce with a sweeping change like this proposed one. If you go down that path you'll need to be VERY careful to fix massive imbalances that you cause in a timely fashion or risk alienating a lot of your playerbase. Solutions What strikes me about a lot of your current problems, things like ewar and short battles, is that these problems largely stem from lack of support classes in EVE. Yes there are command ships and logistics but when was the last time, outside of artificial scenarios like the pvp tourneys, have you seen a logistic used in the role it was meant to be used as? EVE in it's current state does not have a support class and this is, in my opinion, causing a lot of your problems. Some possible solutions would be to give logistics area effect capabilities like armour / shield repairing, you could even give them some race specific stuff so that, say for example, a caldari logistic was able to boost the sensor strength of all of the ships in it's gang or within a 10km radius of it. The possibilities are there and I'm currently writing up a post about making logistics viable, but I really see getting more use out of the ships that you have in game that are meant for these roles as a better alternative then just bumping all ships effective hitpoints as that breaks the balance in an irrevocable manner. EDIT - The thread I said I'd make :http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=413516
pardux Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.19 12:55:00 - [53] >_> geddon with 8x 1600mm tungsten = ~60k armor geddon with 8x 1600mm tungsten&slave set = ~90k armor fun fun fun \o/
Hulemand Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:00:00 - [54] Does the hitpoint increase also affect NPCs? (Really dosn't want to use more time killing NPCs
infraX Caldari Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:05:00 - [55] Tuxford, have you considered the implications of a simple hit point increase in the context of ships that are designed to do a large amount of damage, very quickly and not for a very long time in order to kill the opponent? I'm thinking of blaster ships and the armageddon mainly. It might seem obvious that a simnple hp buff is a fair way of doing things but it does HEAVILY buff capless weapons with a focus on tanking being the i-win button. Remember we have already been through one 50% increase, another is bound to offset these type of ships even more (i.e. running out of cap before they can do enough damage to the enemy and then sitting there capless for the rest of the fight while projectiles/missiles/drones slowly pick them apart.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:06:00 - [56] Originally by: Hulemand Does the hitpoint increase also affect NPCs? (Really dosn't want to use more time killing NPCs Good question. I would hope not, since the players only get a HP boost, but no additional tanking. That boost is good for maybe a minute of more life. That means a lot in PvP, but is totally meaningless in PvE. But if you have to tank the enemies for 50% longer, some mission will become quite too hard, especially for people not using gist equipment. And of course you will need more ammo than your ship can carry for some missions too. That would be kind of stupid... --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:08:00 - [57] I think TUX posted that they are messing with the tec2 ammo ... and people are already complaining about artillery... If we still dont know all the changes how are you guys altready saying that "he didnt think of that" .... I love all the changes untill now .... only the fact of nerf WCS and knowing that the ECM is going to have a change pleases me (it can not be worst then it is). The fact id that the usual NOS+JAM+DRONES seems to be facing the last days. With the boost on HP the drones will take longer to kill something, and if you want to kill your pray fast you WILL have to fit guns in higher slots and not the usual NOS. With the ECM nerf (I hope) PVP will turn to be what it always should be. A competition between 2 player to see who has better fit/skills/tactic ... not the one that locks faster to jam.
D'onryu Shoqui Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:09:00 - [58] will all DRONES & FIGHTERS get a hitpoints bonus aswell? sounds like they should imo ------------------------- I am a nobody of IMP my views are my own.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:14:00 - [59] Originally by: DeadDuck I think TUX posted that they are messing with the tec2 ammo ... and people are already complaining about artillery... If we still dont know all the changes how are you guys altready saying that "he didnt think of that" How exactly would any change to T2 ammo make arty using T1 ammo competitive again? You DO realize that there is a world beyond T2? --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Max Teranous Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:18:00 - [60] Interesting. With the increase in hp's, could we also get an increase in the time you have to wait between aggressing and docking/jumping ? It's possible now to go for a quick kill, then tank the fire until the timer expires and you can redock. This quite boring station hugging can become easier and hence more prevalent if the timers are also not increased comparitively to hp's. Max --------------------

James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:21:00 - [61] Looks good. I'm liking it. Especially the WCS thing. 'spose it makes my EW stabbabadger a thing of the past, but fair trade for stabbed sniper BS and stabbabonds.
Zhaine B e l l u m	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:23:00 - [62] Looks like a big rack of very good changes along with an HP buff, which is a good thing but is gonna screw up some other stuff which will need to be balanced to compensate. So nice one on some very very cool changes, but could we please have an answer on the artilleries (not that I use them but it needs answering)? - - - - - - - - - - Quote: I don't even want a ship, ships are for carebears. Give me a fish bowl for my head (to keep space out) and smear me with lard, then armed with a toasting fork-
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:25:00 - [63] Originally by: Tuxford Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors while the hitpoint increase for interdictors and destroyers is more than welcome, such change would kill permanently howies, make AC's nigh on useless ammo draining weapons, and lasers would have a hit in the groins. please re-think it well tuxford. ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:25:00 - [64] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 19/10/2006 13:31:17 Three things for starters. Why do covops need more cpu ? Mine hardly needs more cpu tbh, and isnt it a bit shady to be changing the level bonus which is the main reason people trained the damn skill up to lvl 5 in the first place ? Secondly, have you considered what another 50% increase in hitpoints added by plates and extenders will do to ships that regularly employ the tactic of fitting oversized extenders, like jaguars for example ? It's already reasonably questionable wether using oversized extenders is balanced well. It just hasn't been a great issue so far. How's the math on a jaguar with 25% hp increase fitting medium extenders that get a 50% increase in terms of recharge and hp totals ? edit: to add nr 3 right away then: What do you think about all other relating factors in pvp combat (especially smaller engagements) and the way in which they'll change because of your hp changes ? An example is ship speed. With more hp's, having higher base speed now is an increased advantage since you'll have mroe time to use it to for example get to that gate and escape. Another example is the balance of small ships versus big ones using nosferatus. Being able to kill a BS fairly fast what was has been keeping alot of support pilots alive in small gangs. Because given enough time that BS will get around to locking you, nossing you and killing you using drones or missiles. How do you expect that these other factors will be changed by the hp changes ? Old blog
Bazman Caldari Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:26:00 - [65] Hitpoints, damn. Can you please consider increasing ship capacitors then? Many, many ships are going to find that they end up running out of cap long before an enemy ship is even near dying. Its bad enough trying to Run all sorts of Lasers/blasters/rails and tank to any degree, but now ships are going to run out of cap halfway through a fight and just become helpless targets ----- Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. I am a Gallente Whiner. Minmatar Whining is currently in training.
Fenderson Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:35:00 - [66] Edited by: Fenderson on 19/10/2006 13:39:22 Hurray for longer battles, WCS nerf and all the other changes! a couple suggestions: I agree with the overall complaint about artillery. My suggestion is to boost their ammo capacity by like 3-4x to reduce the factor of reloading in DPS, and also maybe increase base damage a very small bit. Longer battles means we will need more ammo. I think a 50% boost in cargo capacity of combat ships and/or reduction in the volume of ammo and cap booster charges would be appropriate. Also a boost in capacitor size and/or recharge rate is probably going to be needed. real men structure tank
Morkus Rex Amarr Danish Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:39:00 - [67] I take it that all the npc's will get the same 50% boost ? ... mission running won't be so fast and profitable anymore then _____________________________________________ Our users will know fear and cover before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
Chode Rizoum Minmatar Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:40:00 - [68] Edited by: Chode Rizoum on 19/10/2006 13:43:00 3894.829 sheilds on a dual extender jaguar with 3 powerdiags that can almost give you 37 sheilds/sec
Scrofalitic One Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:45:00 - [69] Originally by: Chode Rizoum Edited by: Chode Rizoum on 19/10/2006 13:43:00 3894.829 sheilds on a dual extender jaguar with 3 powerdiags that can almost give you 37 sheilds/sec Oh My God. Thats sick. Oh yeah, this 50% acorss the board hit point boost isn't at all unbalancing....
Chode Rizoum Minmatar Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:45:00 - [70] Originally by: Scrofalitic One Originally by: Chode Rizoum Edited by: Chode Rizoum on 19/10/2006 13:43:00 3894.829 sheilds on a dual extender jaguar with 3 powerdiags that can almost give you 37 sheilds/sec Oh My God. Thats sick. Oh yeah, this 50% acorss the board hit point boost isn't at all unbalancing.... this was done with the 25 % to tech 2 ships

Uther Doull Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:52:00 - [71] Edited by: Uther Doull on 19/10/2006 13:53:39 any chance we get some amarr specific changes, like the EANII problem etc?
Mirasta Caldari Enigma Enterprises Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:56:00 - [72] Woot sniper nerf, Perhaps fights will now become more close range because with the added hp you obviously need a much higher damage out put to take out plated BS and such. This coupled with stab nerf will make the comitment of the short range fight a real commitmnet. Best T2 ammo nerf ever, dont nerf the ammo boost its targets. This makes T1 so much more viable in any fleet now. Tux, want some babies?
Tuschii Pirates of Destruction Union	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:01:00 - [73] Intaaaaresting, me wonders how this will effect my blasters.
Pepperami Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:02:00 - [74] Any addresses about the, quite legitimate, Artillary worries, tuxford? What's the point in Alpha strike when the game is being changed to negate it? Will arties get a boost negatting the changes or will minmatar get the love that the amarr currently enjoys? The joys of reading these forums while having a min/amarr spec char. [EVE TASK BAR?]
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:02:00 - [75] Originally by: Chode Rizoum Edited by: Chode Rizoum on 19/10/2006 13:43:00 3894.829 sheilds on a dual extender jaguar with 3 powerdiags that can almost give you 37 sheilds/sec is this with the 50% increase (nerf) in recharge time? ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:03:00 - [76] nerfbat just pwned wcs. well forget about using them now. and prepare to get ganked like never before. this sucks. i'm not going to lose a ship everytime i go into low sec just to make the gankers happy. nerf is bad. balance is needed. and it's obvious that they just got nerfed. wcs just got nerfed like ammar. who flys ammar these days? --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=411964Gaming La
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:03:00 - [77] Originally by: Uther Doull Edited by: Uther Doull on 19/10/2006 13:53:39 any chance we get some amarr specific changes, like the EANII problem etc? Lets pray that the changes in the tec2 ammo will bring some new stats to the cristals damage types
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:05:00 - [78] While I do appreciate many of the changes here, is a 50% boost really needed? Consider: Platerax (already hard enough to kill) -Counterpoint: His guns DO use cap, so they'll probably run out soon enough anyway. Duramaller (also too damn hard to kill) Minmatar ships - ammo consumption is already astronomical with autocannons, from a weapon capacity POV, a cargo cap POV, and a price POV (hell, even Barrage S is pricy). Although, tbh, I don't like arty and sniping, so to hell with it. Let's also consider how imbalanced this makes the Ferox line, the Jaguar (as much as I love it), the above two ships, and virtually all cap-less passive-tank ships (other Caldari, not so much Minny, since passive tanking a minmatar ship is usually silly). ---------------------------- Remember, killing a Goon isn't murder. They don't have souls.
Toaster Oven	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:08:00 - [79] Edited by: Toaster Oven on 19/10/2006 14:15:15 Originally by: Chode Rizoum Edited by: Chode Rizoum on 19/10/2006 13:43:00 3894.829 sheilds on a dual extender jaguar with 3 powerdiags that can almost give you 37 sheilds/sec By my calculations it gives Jaguar 4665 hp and 31.2hp/s peak regen. Compared to current stats which gives 3246hp and 27.1hp/s peak regen. That's assuming following stats Jaguar shield hp 563(current) * 1.25 = 703.75 hp (Kali) Jaguar shield recharge 500(current) * 1.25 = 625 sec (Kali) Medium extender II hp 840(current) * 1.5 = 1260 hp (Kali)
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:14:00 - [80] Originally by: Jones Maloy nerfbat just pwned wcs. well forget about using them now. and prepare to get ganked like never before. this sucks. i'm not going to lose a ship everytime i go into low sec just to make the gankers happy. nerf is bad. balance is needed. and it's obvious that they just got nerfed. wcs just got nerfed like ammar. who flys ammar these days? The stab nerf will only affect long range snipers. People fitting them purely for travel purposes wont be affected at all. If you want to snipe from truly long range, you have to ditch the stabs. If you want the stabs, you have to rely on them more to get you out of trouble because you have to operate closer to your targets. I believe that a cap increase across the board should also be seriously considered at this point. Because: 1: More people will go for dual repper set ups to leverage the increase in cap. This will mean that NOS will be more balanced. By that I mean they will be more effective on dual-tanks and less effective than they are now on single rep tanks. It defines the nos users role a bit more. 2: Ships that rely on cap to do the majority of their damage are are going to be hurt by these changes than ships employing weapons systems that require no cap to use. Increasing cap would help level the playing field. 3: It would promote longer combat in many ways. And yes, arties will need to be tweaked. Perhaps a slight ROF increase. I'd have to ponder that one a bit.

Varrig	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:18:00 - [81] The changes look pretty good, Although I do see some balance issues regarding to Amar and Arty. I think the idea of controlled burst being bumped to 7.5 or 10 to compensate and maye nudging arty damage a bit.
Chode Rizoum Minmatar Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:22:00 - [82] Originally by: Toaster Oven Edited by: Toaster Oven on 19/10/2006 14:15:15 Originally by: Chode Rizoum Edited by: Chode Rizoum on 19/10/2006 13:43:00 3894.829 sheilds on a dual extender jaguar with 3 powerdiags that can almost give you 37 sheilds/sec By my calculations it gives Jaguar 4665 hp and 31.2hp/s peak regen. Compared to current stats which gives 3246hp and 27.1hp/s peak regen. That's assuming following stats Jaguar shield hp 563(current) * 1.25 = 703.75 hp (Kali) Jaguar shield recharge 500(current) * 1.25 = 625 sec (Kali) Medium extender II hp 840(current) * 1.5 = 1260 hp (Kali) its only 25 % to tech II
Toaster Oven	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:24:00 - [83] Originally by: Chode Rizoum its only 25 % to tech II That only applies to HP (and assume shield recharge rate) of TII ships. Plates and extenders get 50% bonus.
Snikkt Gallente Time Cube Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:25:00 - [84] Why were Stabs nerfed? They're the only defense against warp scramblers. ECM gets ECCM's. We're not seeing ECCM's with a bucket full of nerf. Plus, the Stab nerf makes no sense. (fluff wise) Smoothing out the fluxuations in a warp core,for some reason, completely rapes your targeting and sensor systems? ------------------- If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. My opinions are not my corporations.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:28:00 - [85] Originally by: Snikkt Why were Stabs nerfed? Because people with no imagination, creativity, or skill whined about it for long enough and in enough numbers that the devs sat up and took notice. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford. [/center]
Unfamed II FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:30:00 - [86] I feel bad for Ginger "nublet" Magician
Waut 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:31:00 - [87] Vulture targetting range still get no lovin'? Outbreak! F* Yeah! Coming again to save the motherf*ing day yeah! In Soviet EVE, roids pop YOU
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:33:00 - [88] oh, totally forgot. Plz look at VULTURE-s targeting range. ktnxbye
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:39:00 - [89] Eagle and Moa will be highly depreciated by this. Those ships are already highly specialised vessels and do their job from poorly to reasonably well depending on the target. More than ever, they need a fifth turret hardpoint and grid to support it. It's not asking for something, btw, it's just following your logic Tux. Those ships were not overpowered before the first HP increase, they were so-so after the changes and they now are underpowered. I know you've already considered that, so now is the time to make the move, IMHO Especially the Moa needs attention, I often see Thorax, Rupture, Caracal sometimes other tech cruisers, never any Moa if not flown by inexperienced players. Great changes btw. ____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:42:00 - [90] Originally by: Snikkt Why were Stabs nerfed? They're the only defense against warp scramblers. ECM gets ECCM's. We're not seeing ECCM's with a bucket full of nerf. Plus, the Stab nerf makes no sense. (fluff wise) Smoothing out the fluxuations in a warp core,for some reason, completely rapes your targeting and sensor systems? ECCM's nerf is that ECM is still chance-based. He's looking at ECM and that includes ECCM, I'd wager. Also, think about it. Take the gigaflops your targeting computer is wasting and put them into trying to stabilize a naturally unstable warp bubble. Especially once it's being ****** with by a scrambler. Either that, or take life support down ;) ---------------------------- Remember, killing a Goon isn't murder. They don't have souls.

Sugintou	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:42:00 - [91] This is really sad... Why bother with Stabs now, in combat? Who's to say (FLUFF-WISE) a pilot wouldn't install a warp stab to improve combat performance, to help being pinned down, to help him maintain combat distance. If the enemy can come close enough to negate striking distance, all stratgem is lost, and when all stratgem is lost, then the fight is lost. I think they're a perfectly fine module in combat. Thier 'nerf' is losing a low slot, with a benefit you may, or may not need. I hope you reconsider this, Tuxford. It really doesn't make sense, and is probably being done due to all the pilots who complain about them, without presenting any real reasons other then they don't like it, because they can't commit E-murder as efficiently.
Snikkt Gallente Time Cube Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:44:00 - [92] Originally by: Nicocat Also, think about it. Take the gigaflops your targeting computer is wasting and put them into trying to stabilize a naturally unstable warp bubble. Why the hell would my targeting computer be doing anything that the navagation computer should be handling? ------------------- If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. My opinions are not my corporations.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:46:00 - [93] Originally by: Toaster Oven Edited by: Toaster Oven on 19/10/2006 14:15:15 Originally by: Chode Rizoum Edited by: Chode Rizoum on 19/10/2006 13:43:00 3894.829 sheilds on a dual extender jaguar with 3 powerdiags that can almost give you 37 sheilds/sec By my calculations it gives Jaguar 4665 hp and 31.2hp/s peak regen. Compared to current stats which gives 3246hp and 27.1hp/s peak regen. That's assuming following stats Jaguar shield hp 563(current) * 1.25 = 703.75 hp (Kali) Jaguar shield recharge 500(current) * 1.25 = 625 sec (Kali) Medium extender II hp 840(current) * 1.5 = 1260 hp (Kali) When you look at it like that, 7m sig penalty on Medium IIs is a tad small. Going from 30 to 44m sig is not really worrying when you have the hp of a BC and that peak regen... ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
HP Hatecraft AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:52:00 - [94] Quote: Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors I didn't really check it but I'll probably increase shield recharge rate by about 50% as well just to be on the safe side Are you serious? Please don't do this, or if you are really intent then you need to outline why this increase is being made. It would seem that this will totally eliminate any ability to run small PVP gangs, and encourage more blob battles. Unless you plan on solving server lag issues (which I don't think is possible) the HP increase will ruin PVP. Even if large fleet battles are the reason for the increase there has to be a better way to solve the survival time of ships. Personally, I don't fly BSs, and this change is (pretty much) making a BS FAR superior to a HAC. This would be fine if a HAC didn't take 3x longer to skill for, and cost upwards 300mil to purchase. The addition here doesn't seem to be very well thought out... Not only do I feel it nerfs my entire character, but it really hurts a lot of other people's as well. I will say that, sometimes, nerfs are important to the balance of a game, but in this instance it seems unjustified. Like I said, at least give us some detailed reasoning behind the proposed increase... it might go a long way to helping understand the changes.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:54:00 - [95] Originally by: Sugintou This is really sad... Why bother with Stabs now, in combat? Who's to say (FLUFF-WISE) a pilot wouldn't install a warp stab to improve combat performance, to help being pinned down, to help him maintain combat distance. If the enemy can come close enough to negate striking distance, all stratgem is lost, and when all stratgem is lost, then the fight is lost. I think they're a perfectly fine module in combat. Thier 'nerf' is losing a low slot, with a benefit you may, or may not need. I hope you reconsider this, Tuxford. It really doesn't make sense, and is probably being done due to all the pilots who complain about them, without presenting any real reasons other then they don't like it, because they can't commit E-murder as efficiently. The abuse of Stabs is primarily done by extreme range snipers and extreme speed ships like the stababond. Occasionally by the BE Raven types. All of these types can still use the stabs, but they will have to rethink how they are going to do it. The possibility of retaliation is higher with this nerf. Few things are more frustrating to an experienced PVP oriented player than to be unable to do anything other than be a sniper target. Tacklers can't close and stop them, cloaked vessels can't close the distance fast enough to be any good as the sniper spots are all over the place. Standard game mechanics begin to break down. No one should be untouchable and still lethal. The level of risk goes up for those using them for these purposes. Most importantly, the person using them for travel purposes is not affected. Carebears may rejoice. I don't think you understand the nature of the nerf.
Varrig	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:56:00 - [96] Originally by: Sugintou This is really sad... Why bother with Stabs now, in combat? Who's to say (FLUFF-WISE) a pilot wouldn't install a warp stab to improve combat performance, to help being pinned down, to help him maintain combat distance. If the enemy can come close enough to negate striking distance, all stratgem is lost, and when all stratgem is lost, then the fight is lost. I think they're a perfectly fine module in combat. Thier 'nerf' is losing a low slot, with a benefit you may, or may not need. I hope you reconsider this, Tuxford. It really doesn't make sense, and is probably being done due to all the pilots who complain about them, without presenting any real reasons other then they don't like it, because they can't commit E-murder as efficiently. How does a warp core stab keep you at distance during combat?? Unless you mean at distance across the system because now you can't gank plus run.
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:57:00 - [97] Some really nice changes here. I'm going to list a few things I feel are missing on the ships front. I still do appreciate the work so far, however. ò Battlecruisers' signature radius (-20%) ò Ferox (+2), Moa (+1), Vulture (+2), Eagle (+1) turret hardpoints (and some PGU to help fit them) ò Deimos' agility / mass ò Vulture's targeting range ò Capacitor sufficiency (20% more for all ships?) Also, I would like to point out that if you increase T2 ships' hp by 25% and increase recharge time by 50%, their recharge will be 1/6 worse. Looking forward to Kali 1. ---
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:59:00 - [98] Originally by: Jin Entres Some really nice changes here. I'm going to list a few things I feel are missing on the ships front. I still do appreciate the work so far, however. ò Battlecruisers' signature radius (-20%) ò Ferox (+2), Moa (+1), Vulture (+2), Eagle (+1) turret hardpoints (and some PGU to help fit them) ò Deimos' agility / mass ò Vulture's targeting range ò Capacitor sufficiency (20% more for all ships?) Also, I would like to point out that if you increase T2 ships' hp by 25% and increase recharge time by 50%, their recharge will be 1/6 worse. Looking forward to Kali 1. I think he meant to say the recharge rate would be adjusted in proportion to the hp amount to maintain the same recharge rate.
Traxio Nacho Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.19 14:59:00 - [99] Originally by: Sugintou This is really sad... Why bother with Stabs now, in combat? Who's to say (FLUFF-WISE) a pilot wouldn't install a warp stab to improve combat performance, to help being pinned down, to help him maintain combat distance. If the enemy can come close enough to negate striking distance, all stratgem is lost, and when all stratgem is lost, then the fight is lost. I think they're a perfectly fine module in combat. Thier 'nerf' is losing a low slot, with a benefit you may, or may not need. I hope you reconsider this, Tuxford. It really doesn't make sense, and is probably being done due to all the pilots who complain about them, without presenting any real reasons other then they don't like it, because they can't commit E-murder as efficiently. Why go to a fight when you intend to run if you are losing? WCS are still useful for travel which is good. The WCS is a very good thing I would like to see maybe another penalty on them but hey can't complain.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:02:00 - [100] Edited by: keepiru on 19/10/2006 15:03:04 Originally by: Jin Entres ò Battlecruisers' signature radius (-20%) Some good points, but I believe the Cyclone hulls have the right signature, at 84% larger than the racial tier-3 cruiser; its the other 3 races that are too large, with an avg. 114% increase over racial tier-3 cruisers. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!

Sugintou	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:04:00 - [101] Originally by: Varrig Originally by: Sugintou This is really sad... Why bother with Stabs now, in combat? Who's to say (FLUFF-WISE) a pilot wouldn't install a warp stab to improve combat performance, to help being pinned down, to help him maintain combat distance. If the enemy can come close enough to negate striking distance, all stratgem is lost, and when all stratgem is lost, then the fight is lost. I think they're a perfectly fine module in combat. Thier 'nerf' is losing a low slot, with a benefit you may, or may not need. I hope you reconsider this, Tuxford. It really doesn't make sense, and is probably being done due to all the pilots who complain about them, without presenting any real reasons other then they don't like it, because they can't commit E-murder as efficiently. How does a warp core stab keep you at distance during combat?? Unless you mean at distance across the system because now you can't gank plus run. Warp in/warp out, kind of a thing, if you're scrambled, you're pinned down, and essentially become a turret, because you'll be webbed in short order, most likely.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:08:00 - [102] So yes, the WCS nerf stops you from being able to fit to run away with minimal impact on the effectiveness of your setup. Excellent. Mission accomplished tux. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Snikkt Gallente Time Cube Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:09:00 - [103] Originally by: Traxio Nacho Originally by: Sugintou This is really sad... Why bother with Stabs now, in combat? Who's to say (FLUFF-WISE) a pilot wouldn't install a warp stab to improve combat performance, to help being pinned down, to help him maintain combat distance. If the enemy can come close enough to negate striking distance, all stratgem is lost, and when all stratgem is lost, then the fight is lost. I think they're a perfectly fine module in combat. Thier 'nerf' is losing a low slot, with a benefit you may, or may not need. I hope you reconsider this, Tuxford. It really doesn't make sense, and is probably being done due to all the pilots who complain about them, without presenting any real reasons other then they don't like it, because they can't commit E-murder as efficiently. Why go to a fight when you intend to run if you are losing? WCS are still useful for travel which is good. The WCS is a very good thing I would like to see maybe another penalty on them but hey can't complain. Perfect! A great example of the e-murder who just wants to kill people. See, the thing is, why wouldn't you wanna run? Don't give me any Bullsh** about cowards, or lack of honour, discretion is the better part of valour. There is no shame in running, and you should be able to do it. Don't like it? Fit more scramblers, or bring a buddy. Yes, they can fit more stabs, but at what cost? The loss of essential low slots. ------------------- If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. My opinions are not my corporations.
Donmadefy	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:13:00 - [104] Originally by: Scrofalitic One Originally by: Chode Rizoum Edited by: Chode Rizoum on 19/10/2006 13:43:00 3894.829 sheilds on a dual extender jaguar with 3 powerdiags that can almost give you 37 sheilds/sec Oh My God. Thats sick. Oh yeah, this 50% acorss the board hit point boost isn't at all unbalancing.... Actually, 37 shield hp / sec can be improved on with current values. Before these numbers came out, I had calculated a fit that gave 45hp/s which I could up to 50hp/s with certain mods (non faction)
Max Teranous Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:13:00 - [105] Originally by: Snikkt Perfect! A great example of the e-murder who just wants to kill people. See, the thing is, why wouldn't you wanna run? Don't give me any Bullsh** about cowards, or lack of honour, discretion is the better part of valour. There is no shame in running, and you should be able to do it. Don't like it? Fit more scramblers, or bring a buddy. Yes, they can fit more stabs, but at what cost? The loss of essential low slots. Erm, this change does nothing to those that wish to run away from combat. They don't need to lock anyway. What it does do is reduce "no risk" pvp - racks of stabs in the lows, engage and see if you can win, if you can't, oh well warp out. That IMO is a good thing to reduce. And it still doesn't stop you fitting stabs to combat setups - but you will have to think about it far more now. Max --------------------
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:14:00 - [106] Originally by: Snikkt Perfect! A great example of the e-murder who just wants to kill people. What a crock of ****. We operate in 0.0, we're not pirates, we dont run an NBSI policy, and I'm sure most of us heartily approve the WCS nerf. Still works fine for travelling. Still works fine for NPCing, if youre - no offence - so incompetent that you need WCS NPCing. No more stabbed snipers & similars. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Traxio Nacho Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:17:00 - [107] Edited by: Traxio Nacho on 19/10/2006 15:18:30 Quote: Yes, they can fit more stabs, but at what cost? The loss of essential low slots. Rubbish certain ships Vaga/Raven you can fit 2-3 stabs without losing anything but some damage output. Say on the vaga fitting 2-3 stabs you can still fit 2-3 gyro's. So quite honestly I don't care , down with stabs . If you want to pvp without the risk of losing something either pick your fights right or go play WoW. The fact is in Eve you can lose stuff it gives it that edge over other games. Quote: Perfect! A great example of the e-murder who just wants to kill people. Oh yeah baby, thats what we do
Tundaar Minmatar Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:17:00 - [108] Been In game for about a year now. 40% of my skills are in Gunnery and I fly exclusively Minnie ships - Only trained in Projectiles no other weapon types (yet) With difference in HP it seems that I'm gonna either a) run out of Ammo or b) be outdamaged everytime by same class ships. Tux - please tell me I didn't just waste 5 months of my life training Projectiles Hmm - I guess I could just fight Minnie ships so that we are on an equal footing.
Dupac Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:23:00 - [109] I've specialised in Amarr, recently started cross training to minmatar due to the amarr issues with em/therm - now we get 50% HP increases that negate the main benefit of artillary and will damage lasers even more against increased armour hps - :( Do you just wake up and think - "50% increase !111eleventy one yeah" or was any work done on this using amarr or minnie ships at all? Longer fights means more cap use (for amarr) even more ean II tank hp's to get through using em and therm damage - I'll be lucky to break a tank using a geddon before running out of cap :( Small gangs will now have even less chance against blobbers as they won't be able to kill anything fast enough encouraging even more blobbing. And please do something useful with the sac - boosting it's cpu and power will not encourage anyone to use this ship - it needs a rethink. WCS changes ftw, crude sweeping changes with little thought behind them ftl :(
asdaasddfssd	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:27:00 - [110] Will BE disband .... No more Ravens With Stabs or will be a exception for them ?

Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:33:00 - [111] Originally by: Snikkt Originally by: Nicocat Also, think about it. Take the gigaflops your targeting computer is wasting and put them into trying to stabilize a naturally unstable warp bubble. Why the hell would my targeting computer be doing anything that the navagation computer should be handling? I'm going to go dig up a study someone did on how your graphics card is a more powerful processor than... well... your processor. When rigged up right. Besides, haven't you ever seen Star Trek? All resources on a spaceship are modular. ---------------------------- Remember, killing a Goon isn't murder. They don't have souls.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:33:00 - [112] Originally by: asdaasddfssd Will BE disband .... No more Ravens With Stabs or will be a exception for them ? What all of the trolling idiots like you fail to grasp, is that nerfing stabs doesnt hurt good players at all, it only hurts bad ones who use stabs as an excuse for intelligence. People who used stabs merely because it was stupid not to fit them, will fit something else, adapt their setups, and have less idiots with 8 stabbed BSes get away from them. In short, people like you will die more, people with a clue will simply get their kills in a different way. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford. [/center]
Viktor Konstantine GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:40:00 - [113] Please don't break artillery :(
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:45:00 - [114] While I'm thinking about changes that can be made, a minor point occured to me about Auto-targeters. Forgive me if this is slightly out of place. If the currently unused auto-targeter would simply target as many things a possible based on your overview settings (starting at the top down, so you control how things are sorted and what gets targeted and what does not) it would be a far more useful module. Especially if it granted a slight increase to targeting speed. Likewise it would have no inherent range of its own, using instead the current targeting range of your ship. It could make life a lot simpler for fleet commanders. Sort your overview by what you want to call as primary, set overview for range, ship type whatever as you normally do, and not have to worry about contantly clicking new targets. Could make life a lot easier for logistics pilots as well. Just a thought.
Fred 104 New Justice	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:47:00 - [115] Originally by: Testy Mctest Edited by: Testy Mctest on 19/10/2006 12:03:17 Tux, don't shirk this issue, don't ignore it. Don't pretend it doesn't exist. Please. I'm not going to bother trying to explain in depth just how bad a change increasing base hitpoints is. It doesn't solve the blob problem, it only makes it worse. If focus fire doesn't kill targets anymore, then people will bring more ships to make sure it does. Although the overall effect of +50% hitpoints on a 50 man BS blob shooting you is negligible. This change means two things; the first is a nerf to small group combat. Small groups attacking larger ones are pressed for time, trying to kill opposing ships before they get away, or before they bring in even more friends and the odds become un-workable. You're driving the game more into blobbishness. This is a bad thing. QFT For these reasons and more, please, PLEASE do not do another hp boost. The rest of the stuff looks good though, especially the stab nerf.
Draycar Hazaran	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:50:00 - [116] Edited by: Draycar Hazaran on 19/10/2006 15:50:32 The HP boost is completely and irreparably damaging to Artillery as a viable weapon system if something is not done to achieve balance in that regard. I also acknowledge that it is damaging, though less so, to other weapon systems. Please forget this idea of boosting HP, it changes balance game-wide on a concept that is flawed to begin with.
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:51:00 - [117] All good changes Tux. Except the HP boosts a) Solo and small gang is already mosty ballanced in terms of gank\tank. b) 50% will do jack to fleetbattles with 20+ battleships. c) If you can outrange your opponant then 50% HP means nothing. d) 50% HP will do nothing to equalize ganks of 5+ v 1. e) Little and Large (SAR+1600+frig guns on crusiers secifically) setups were already pushing the limits of ballance imho. f) Cap use - geddon and neutron mega specifically if fights are going to last 50% longer. -----
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:54:00 - [118] Originally by: Ozzie Asrail All good changes Tux. Except the HP boosts a) Solo and small gang is already mosty ballanced in terms of gank\tank. b) 50% will do jack to fleetbattles with 20+ battleships. c) If you can outrange your opponant then 50% HP means nothing. d) 50% HP will do nothing to equalize ganks of 5+ v 1. e) Little and Large (SAR+1600+frig guns on crusiers secifically) setups were already pushing the limits of ballance imho. f) Cap use - geddon and neutron mega specifically if fights are going to last 50% longer. For the last point, that is why I would strongly suggest a cap increase at the same time... for a variety of reasons.
Sugintou	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:59:00 - [119] Originally by: Nicocat Originally by: Snikkt Originally by: Nicocat Also, think about it. Take the gigaflops your targeting computer is wasting and put them into trying to stabilize a naturally unstable warp bubble. Why the hell would my targeting computer be doing anything that the navagation computer should be handling? I'm going to go dig up a study someone did on how your graphics card is a more powerful processor than... well... your processor. When rigged up right. Besides, haven't you ever seen Star Trek? All resources on a spaceship are modular. Spoiler, spoiler spoiler This isn't Star Trek, this is EVE.
Unfamed II FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:07:00 - [120] Originally by: Snikkt Originally by: Traxio Nacho Originally by: Sugintou This is really sad... Why bother with Stabs now, in combat? Who's to say (FLUFF-WISE) a pilot wouldn't install a warp stab to improve combat performance, to help being pinned down, to help him maintain combat distance. If the enemy can come close enough to negate striking distance, all stratgem is lost, and when all stratgem is lost, then the fight is lost. I think they're a perfectly fine module in combat. Thier 'nerf' is losing a low slot, with a benefit you may, or may not need. I hope you reconsider this, Tuxford. It really doesn't make sense, and is probably being done due to all the pilots who complain about them, without presenting any real reasons other then they don't like it, because they can't commit E-murder as efficiently. Why go to a fight when you intend to run if you are losing? WCS are still useful for travel which is good. The WCS is a very good thing I would like to see maybe another penalty on them but hey can't complain. Perfect! A great example of the e-murder who just wants to kill people. See, the thing is, why wouldn't you wanna run? Don't give me any Bullsh** about cowards, or lack of honour, discretion is the better part of valour. There is no shame in running, and you should be able to do it. Don't like it? Fit more scramblers, or bring a buddy. Yes, they can fit more stabs, but at what cost? The loss of essential low slots. If you want to move freely(or near that anyways) fit stabs, if you want to fight, don't fit. Hard to understand?

DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:11:00 - [121] I like all the changes including the HP boost. 1) It makes fights last longer; 2) It makes ganks way harder; 3) It will oblige the setups to be balanced. The DPS will be important but a lot of other things will have to be taken in to account 4) The argument that will increase the blobage doesnt convince me... the blobage has reached insane numbers already. And TBH when you go to battle you bring everything that you can. I'm not seeing a FC saying .. OK the HP are not boosted so we can leave here those 20 BS that were handy .. let them NPC...
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:14:00 - [122] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 19/10/2006 16:16:01 It is really kind of disturbing that the well thought through and almost unanimously praised Khanid Mk. II stuff is at best in evaluation, while this hitpoint boost thingy appears to have been just slapped in with what seems to be no proper evaluation whatsoever... Maybe switch the two? lol --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:19:00 - [123] All the changes are good except the shield recharge increase. That will be unbalanced...making shield tankers, and passive shield tankers in particular much stronger than armor tankers. Shamis
Bazman Caldari Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:20:00 - [124] Interceptors: My New Taranis Adding the 25% extra HP from skills and the new HP changes. Structure: ((625 * 1.25)1.25) = 976.56 Structure Armour: ((406 1.25)1.25) = 634.375 Armour Shield: ((281 1.25)1.25) = 439 Shield Now, let me slap on my usual Plate and Damage Control Armour: 200mm Rolled Tungsten Plate = 420 1.5 = 630 Armour. (634.375 + (630 1.25 = 787.5) 787.5) = 1,422 Armour Structure: 976.56 2 (Damage control 1, 50% resists to all is effectively double structure hitpoints) = 1,953 Structure New Taranis: 1,953 Structure 1,422 Armour 439 Shield We now have ceptors that can reach up to an effective 3,800 HP, not including the native resists on Armour and Shield, or the resists added to armour and shield by the damage control. yay /sarcasm ----- Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. I am a Gallente Whiner. Minmatar Whining is currently in training.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:21:00 - [125] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz All the changes are good except the shield recharge increase. That will be unbalanced...making shield tankers, and passive shield tankers in particular much stronger than armor tankers. Shamis No, no no, you dont get it. Shield recharge increase means the time to recharge increases... thus keeping the base hp/sec the same as now. This is to prevent passive shield tanks from becoming overpowered. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Bazman Caldari Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:26:00 - [126] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Shamis Orzoz All the changes are good except the shield recharge increase. That will be unbalanced...making shield tankers, and passive shield tankers in particular much stronger than armor tankers. Shamis No, no no, you dont get it. Shield recharge increase means the time to recharge increases... thus keeping the base hp/sec the same as now. This is to prevent passive shield tanks from becoming overpowered. Passive tanks become more powerful the larger the numbers get. Take Chodes Jaguar for example, 37HP/S is like running a Medium Shield Booster II non stop for no cap use, and that isn't even the most HP/S you can get from a Passive tanked Jaguar. ----- Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. I am a Gallente Whiner. Minmatar Whining is currently in training.
Malena Panic Gallente Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:27:00 - [127] I'm a bit disappointed to see HP modules will gain the same hp boost as ship hp. I was kind of hoping that increasing the latter, but not the former, would encourage 'gankier' setups, and reintroduce more variety to the now-standard BS-plate-and-small-guns cruiser setups.
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:31:00 - [128] Originally by: Bazman Interceptors: My New Taranis Adding the 25% extra HP from skills and the new HP changes. Structure: ((625 * 1.25)1.25) = 976.56 Structure Armour: ((406 1.25)1.25) = 634.375 Armour Shield: ((281 1.25)1.25) = 439 Shield Now, let me slap on my usual Plate and Damage Control Armour: 200mm Rolled Tungsten Plate = 420 1.5 = 630 Armour. (634.375 + (630 1.25 = 787.5) 787.5) = 1,422 Armour Structure: 976.56 2 (Damage control 1, 50% resists to all is effectively double structure hitpoints) = 1,953 Structure New Taranis: 1,953 Structure 1,422 Armour 439 Shield We now have ceptors that can reach up to an effective 3,800 HP, not including the native resists on Armour and Shield, or the resists added to armour and shield by the damage control. yay /sarcasm Whats the problem? All the others will have the same boosts. You will be fighting much more time now, instead of the previous 15-30 secs. Do you think is bad ? Of course the cargo bays will have to increase alsow to give the 3 diferent races the oportunity to carry more ammo, but in then end will give a equal treatment between all the other races and amarr. When You are blown away you will loose much more ammo then you used to ... like we loose when we are blown away.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:35:00 - [129] Originally by: Bazman We now have ceptors that can reach up to an effective 3,800 HP, not including the native resists on Armour and Shield, or the resists added to armour and shield by the damage control. yay /sarcasm Tell ya something funny. After these changes, the Astarte will have a whole 0.9375 HP LESS than a brutix Hull: 31251.251.5=5859.375; 37501.251.25=5859.375 - identical Armor: 28131.251.5=5274.375; 33751.251.25=5273.4375 - Astarte has less armour! Priceless. Shield: 25001.251.5=4687.5; 30001.251.25=4687.5 - identical ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:38:00 - [130] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Bazman We now have ceptors that can reach up to an effective 3,800 HP, not including the native resists on Armour and Shield, or the resists added to armour and shield by the damage control. yay /sarcasm Tell ya something funny. After these changes, the Astarte will have a whole 0.9375 HP LESS than a brutix Hull: 31251.251.5=5859.375; 37501.251.25=5859.375 - identical Armor: 28131.251.5=5274.375; 33751.251.25=5273.4375 - Astarte has less armour! Priceless. Shield: 25001.251.5=4687.5; 30001.251.25=4687.5 - identical Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors

Bazman Caldari Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:39:00 - [131] Originally by: DeadDuck Originally by: Bazman Interceptors: My New Taranis Adding the 25% extra HP from skills and the new HP changes. Structure: ((625 * 1.25)1.25) = 976.56 Structure Armour: ((406 1.25)1.25) = 634.375 Armour Shield: ((281 1.25)1.25) = 439 Shield Now, let me slap on my usual Plate and Damage Control Armour: 200mm Rolled Tungsten Plate = 420 1.5 = 630 Armour. (634.375 + (630 1.25 = 787.5) 787.5) = 1,422 Armour Structure: 976.56 2 (Damage control 1, 50% resists to all is effectively double structure hitpoints) = 1,953 Structure New Taranis: 1,953 Structure 1,422 Armour 439 Shield We now have ceptors that can reach up to an effective 3,800 HP, not including the native resists on Armour and Shield, or the resists added to armour and shield by the damage control. yay /sarcasm Whats the problem? All the others will have the same boosts. You will be fighting much more time now, instead of the previous 15-30 secs. Do you think is bad ? Of course the cargo bays will have to increase alsow to give the 3 diferent races the oportunity to carry more ammo, but in then end will give a equal treatment between all the other races and amarr. When You are blown away you will loose much more ammo then you used to ... like we loose when we are blown away. You have no problem with Interceptors having the hitpoints of the current cruisers? ----- Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. I am a Gallente Whiner. Minmatar Whining is currently in training.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:40:00 - [132] I think its pretty safe to assume that theyre in the same ratio though. I hope theyre not, but i think they will be =/ ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:40:00 - [133] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Bazman We now have ceptors that can reach up to an effective 3,800 HP, not including the native resists on Armour and Shield, or the resists added to armour and shield by the damage control. yay /sarcasm Tell ya something funny. After these changes, the Astarte will have a whole 0.9375 HP LESS than a brutix Hull: 31251.251.5=5859.375; 37501.251.25=5859.375 - identical Armor: 28131.251.5=5274.375; 33751.251.25=5273.4375 - Astarte has less armour! Priceless. Shield: 25001.251.5=4687.5; 30001.251.25=4687.5 - identical lmao ...guess this shows that this HP change is a bit of knee-jerk write up. anyways, in a serious note: Tuxford, I hope that some of the more enlightened posts have showed you how the increase of HP will severely broke, in a indirect way, some guns. ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:44:00 - [134] Wow. The HP buff is going to totally unbalance EVE. Not only is a it nerf to Arties and Amarr for already stated reasons, but to blasterthrons also. Not to mention small gang PVP, your increasing the amount of time to kill other ships which only makes it easier for the enemy to flood the field with reinforcements. That is NOT a good change for small gang pvp, it just makes blobbing alot more viable. HP changes are NOT good.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:47:00 - [135] And any ship which tends to run out of ammo/cap booster charges. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Dashi Kawasuki Caldarians Pride THE H0RDE	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:54:00 - [136] Edited by: Dashi Kawasuki on 19/10/2006 16:54:40 Thing i like the most is the even better increase in destroyer HP. They are cool ships, but lacked some HP to be useful, except for a few rare occasions. I really like to fly them just for the look of them (especially the Cormorant and the Catalyst). So \o/ for more HP! --------------------------------------------- if (ourKills > theirKills){ battleWon = true; }
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:56:00 - [137] Interesting changes, I'm anxiously waiting for the ECM blog that was supposed to come out tonight...
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.19 17:00:00 - [138] Originally by: Bazman Originally by: DeadDuck Originally by: Bazman Interceptors: My New Taranis Adding the 25% extra HP from skills and the new HP changes. Structure: ((625 * 1.25)1.25) = 976.56 Structure Armour: ((406 1.25)1.25) = 634.375 Armour Shield: ((281 1.25)1.25) = 439 Shield Now, let me slap on my usual Plate and Damage Control Armour: 200mm Rolled Tungsten Plate = 420 1.5 = 630 Armour. (634.375 + (630 1.25 = 787.5) 787.5) = 1,422 Armour Structure: 976.56 2 (Damage control 1, 50% resists to all is effectively double structure hitpoints) = 1,953 Structure New Taranis: 1,953 Structure 1,422 Armour 439 Shield We now have ceptors that can reach up to an effective 3,800 HP, not including the native resists on Armour and Shield, or the resists added to armour and shield by the damage control. yay /sarcasm Whats the problem? All the others will have the same boosts. You will be fighting much more time now, instead of the previous 15-30 secs. Do you think is bad ? Of course the cargo bays will have to increase alsow to give the 3 diferent races the oportunity to carry more ammo, but in then end will give a equal treatment between all the other races and amarr. When You are blown away you will loose much more ammo then you used to ... like we loose when we are blown away. You have no problem with Interceptors having the hitpoints of the current cruisers? No. All the HP in every ship will increase. What will happen is that you will be fighting way longer. I think that is actually very good. TBH I was a bit tired of roaming for hours to pick some 30 secs fights... Are you imagining fighting a unstabed ship for 10m ???? Wouldnt you found out that it was actually great ?
Rawstyle Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.19 17:02:00 - [139] so the duel extender vaga bond will get even more powerful and dmg based solo setups will be made a non viable option when trying 2 break the 50% boosted tanks on npc'ing battleships. This hp boost has really not been thought out at all, simply slapping extra hp on ships will make the life of the non-vagabond solo hac pilot an absoulte nighmare.
Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.10.19 17:04:00 - [140] Edited by: Shin Ra on 19/10/2006 17:07:01 Edited by: Shin Ra on 19/10/2006 17:05:49 What about wcs affecting mass/sig radius too - nerf the stababond. Also, with all this HP buffs, can u increase the agression timer FFS. The old timer is far too short. It was set at a time when ships has less HP and gankageddons could pwn ships really fast. Please.... P.S And while we are it it, increase smartbomb dmg by 25% too.

Bazman Caldari Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.19 17:09:00 - [141] Originally by: DeadDuck Originally by: Bazman Originally by: DeadDuck Originally by: Bazman Interceptors: My New Taranis Adding the 25% extra HP from skills and the new HP changes. Structure: ((625 * 1.25)1.25) = 976.56 Structure Armour: ((406 1.25)1.25) = 634.375 Armour Shield: ((281 1.25)1.25) = 439 Shield Now, let me slap on my usual Plate and Damage Control Armour: 200mm Rolled Tungsten Plate = 420 1.5 = 630 Armour. (634.375 + (630 1.25 = 787.5) 787.5) = 1,422 Armour Structure: 976.56 2 (Damage control 1, 50% resists to all is effectively double structure hitpoints) = 1,953 Structure New Taranis: 1,953 Structure 1,422 Armour 439 Shield We now have ceptors that can reach up to an effective 3,800 HP, not including the native resists on Armour and Shield, or the resists added to armour and shield by the damage control. yay /sarcasm Whats the problem? All the others will have the same boosts. You will be fighting much more time now, instead of the previous 15-30 secs. Do you think is bad ? Of course the cargo bays will have to increase alsow to give the 3 diferent races the oportunity to carry more ammo, but in then end will give a equal treatment between all the other races and amarr. When You are blown away you will loose much more ammo then you used to ... like we loose when we are blown away. You have no problem with Interceptors having the hitpoints of the current cruisers? No. All the HP in every ship will increase. What will happen is that you will be fighting way longer. I think that is actually very good. TBH I was a bit tired of roaming for hours to pick some 30 secs fights... Are you imagining fighting a unstabed ship for 10m ???? Wouldnt you found out that it was actually great ? Whats interesting about 2 webbed interceptors shooting each other for 1 or 2 minutes? I've had fights where i've been solo in a battleship, engaging another battleship or 2 and the fight lasted 3 or 4 minutes. Shooting the same ship for 10 minutes would become boring fast. It's not like your choice of attack strategy in a 1 on 1 fight will make a difference, all thats likely to happen is you start shooting your target, and 5 minutes into the fight, his mates come along and gang bang you. ----- Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. I am a Gallente Whiner. Minmatar Whining is currently in training.
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.10.19 17:17:00 - [142] rest in peace howitzers.
31i73 BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.19 17:23:00 - [143] Ceptors seem to become even better, as even martbombs can't kill them anymore :(
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.10.19 17:33:00 - [144] Originally by: Pesadel0 rest in peace howitzers. hey! atleast you wont run out of cap and die before your target dies. if you got enough ammo you can keep plonking away, unlike others. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
johnnyknoxvile	Posted - 2006.10.19 17:34:00 - [145]
Imdamnugly	Posted - 2006.10.19 17:36:00 - [146] Well I for one support the HP changes in general (obviously arties must be looked at, and perhaps cap). I was gonna write a long post detailing why and answering criticms but reading back in the thread most of the complaints are too dumb to bother with. Sadly the half intelligent criticism are gonna get buried under the usual "omgchangeisbaddontchangethings" brigade, and ignored.
Jack Longo	Posted - 2006.10.19 17:53:00 - [147] "Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 ..." This nerf seems to be weighted heavily towards long range sniper stabbed ships...what about blaster boats that rely on up close damage?
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.19 18:00:00 - [148] Takes them twice as long to lock? Well, 1 stab being not much use, 4 times as long... that's a pretty long time, especially if your opponent has any kind of EW. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
xenorx 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.19 18:01:00 - [149] I like the majority of the changes except the HP increase. I dont understand the need for it. Of all the things that are out of balance in the game why make it worse? As many ppl have pointed out Artillery will be greatly nerfed. Im surprised more Amarr pilots are not crying over it. A few have mentioned it but this is going to further damage the whole amarr ship lineup. This hitpoint increase compounded on top of the previous HP increase and a few EAN II's & a Damage Control will make lasers/Amarr pointless. I doubt that any amarr ship will be able to kill much more than a shuttle after this before capping out. No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.10.19 18:04:00 - [150] Originally by: 31i73 Ceptors seem to become even better, as even martbombs can't kill them anymore :( I want to meet the ceptor pilot that you killed with a Smartbomb so I can kick him in the face for sucking. ---------------------------- Remember, killing a Goon isn't murder. They don't have souls.

Jack Longo	Posted - 2006.10.19 18:05:00 - [151] Originally by: keepiru Takes them twice as long to lock? Well, 1 stab being not much use, 4 times as long... that's a pretty long time, especially if your opponent has any kind of EW. Okay, that's two nerfs to long range setups. One nerf to up close blaster setups. word.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.19 18:08:00 - [152] I wouldn't mind the HP increase if they increase Artillery/AC DPS, increase cargo hold space/reduce ammo size and rebalance laser ammo to do more thermal and less em. The comparatively useless armor rep bonus/shield booster bonus should probably be switched to a resistance bonus as well. Who knows if it will happen though...
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Serenity Fallen	Posted - 2006.10.19 18:09:00 - [153] Loving the changes! All of them, especially the WCS nerf and the HP increase. Finally, we can see some decent battles, where long term strategy will prevail instead of who locked first. This should also encourage more to PvP. Right now lots don't like PvP cause they spend a long time getting the ship, and then lose it in 10 seconds. With the increased HP, even if you are gonna lose the ship, at least you will actually fight during that time, which will be fun. Good work, Tuxford =================================== Above comments are my personal views, and do not represent my corporation or alliance, unless otherwise indicated
stummer Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.19 18:11:00 - [154] it's nice to hear that some concerns regarding certain ships have been addressed and seem to have been addressed in an intelligent manner. What worries me is yet another hp buff, which seem to effect negatively those with low dps weapons, thinking mostly of Arties here or those which need to maintain cap to both tank and fight, yet again it seems to be a boast caldari at the exspense of every one else.
Hydraxian Momentum.	Posted - 2006.10.19 18:32:00 - [155] i'm sorry if this has already been answered but does T1 inc. Capital ships? Just wondering how much HP my shiny Thanatos will have post kali :D Signature hijacks ftw
Jarem Alistor Minmatar Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.19 18:34:00 - [156] As an arty user who is not trained in any other weapon type I am understandably worried. However I took a step back from being upset and thought over things for a moment. And came up with this question: Does it balance out? Tux wants fights to last longer, that's fine but I'm thinking he wants a bit more than that. The 50% across the board change might add a bit more change to combat then otherwise might happen. Think about it, if he upped the HP and then balanced the weapons the same way then yes you'd have a longer fight but you'd have a longer fight with the /exact same conclusion as you have now./ You've done absolutely nothing aside from making the loser realize that he's gonna die - just twice as slow. So the question is - do the changes balance out? Does the fact that arties have less DPS but don't have to worry about running out of cap balance fighting someone who does more DPS but might very well run out of cap and be sitting there waiting for death? I don't know - if someone can run some theoretical numbers now perhaps we'll see that there have been some interesting changes across the board and that combat might have aquired a whole new level. If not then I must join in my voice with the others who are asking for a boost to arties to help keep them viable. -Jare' ---- -Founder-
CaperPuts	Posted - 2006.10.19 18:39:00 - [157] I abandoned Minmatar for Caldari when I first started this game. And now, I'm training up all my Projectile skills, and I was planning on getting an artillery based Tempest soon... But from the sounds of it, even for ratting, artillery seems like it's going to become rather weak vs. other weapon types. I'm tempted to simply cancel training artillery, and work on Gunnery in general because I have a feeling Hybrids are going to be so much more useful in the long fight.
Shinjuro Solidline Enterprise Kith of Venal	Posted - 2006.10.19 18:47:00 - [158] I was going to stay out of this one.. but I just can't. The HP boost as shown will have FAR too many cons. It will make some t2 ships have LESS HP than their t1 counterparts. Certain Alpha Strike Weapons will be next to obsolete Cough HOWIES!! Cough. Despite all the Flames toward the WCS nerf, it was needed and is going to be for the better. To all the stabw****s out there.. Cry some more. The mod was designed for NON-fighting ships as means of safer traveling. Your haulers are still fine, you can still fit them on traveling cruisers and frigs. Tux simply took them out of Setups that were designed for fighting of any kind. Even I would find myself filling the 1 or 2 empty low slots on my Tempest with them when I would go sniping. It was however an overpowered mod that needed some justifing. With regards to people that say, "Well WCS are a counter to Warp Scramblers/Disruptors, and they just got nerfed. The ECCM is a counter for ECM and it isn't getting nerfed." Well I say to that, ECM is a CHANCED based mod. ECCM won't guarentee you won't get jammed. WCS is a 100% guarentee to not get warp scrambled/disrupted (obviously depending on how many scrams/disruptors your foe has fitted). For those who refuse reason I will give you a simple example: Someone fits a multispec ecm (or racial, it doesn't really matter in this case), their opponent fits the ECCM of their race. The multispec has a low chance of jamming the ship. Now for the WCS: Some has a warp disruptor engaged on a ship. That ship has 1 WCS fitted, he can do whatever he wants and the warp disruptor won't affect him. This is defined as overpowered and now has been fixed. I expect this post to be flamed, and TBH flame away. That is what makes this game great, your opinion can have influence on the way the game changes. I want to personally thank Tuxford and for that matter all of the devs for the changes brought about in Kali. Some were good, some I disagree with, but in the end We will all cope with whatever you decide to go with, and then we will flame the living hell out of it. See you all in space. Alts rule the bizzy.
Wodin Drukvik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.10.19 18:59:00 - [159] Originally by: xenorx Im surprised more Amarr pilots are not crying over it. A few have mentioned it but this is going to further damage the whole amarr ship lineup. This hitpoint increase compounded on top of the previous HP increase and a few EAN II's & a Damage Control will make lasers/Amarr pointless. I doubt that any amarr ship will be able to kill much more than a shuttle after this before capping out. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=413537 Backdoor Bandit is on the case. I think all of us are appreciative of the irony of the ultimate gank ship(the Abaddon) appearing in the same patch as severe anti-gank measures.
Jezala Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.19 19:20:00 - [160] Edited by: Jezala on 19/10/2006 19:27:33 My concerns with HP increase: 1. Artillery or alpha-strike ships are totally screwed. Many people have addressed this issue 2. Interceptors, and to some extent vagabonds, are now much more less fragile while maintaining their advantageous speed. This is a nerf to dedicated interceptor-killers who must deal with tackling, webbing, and killing the interceptor. Destroyers are totally screwed here. 3. Engagements at gates and at stations is going to suck balls on a massive level. Assuming that the aggro timer does not get increased, then a ship that ceases to agress can much more easily jump through a gate or dock at a station. Empire wars are going to suck big time. 4. Pilots that use high-capacitor weapons are taking a bit of a stealth nerf here. Now they must expend 25%-50% more capacitor to get the job done. Who's affected here...blaster users and Amarr ships. On the plus side, nos and neuts are getting an indirect buff. 5. Reloading and ammo storage will now play a more significant factor in pvp. I'm not sure what kind of effect it will have, but it is definitly something that needs to be looked at. This is a massive change to combat mechanics that you guys are considering here. I strongly recommend that you put this out on the test server for a couple of months. You may want to organize some formal test events with the player base like you guys did with the recent stress tests. There are going to be a ton of hidden issues that won't be revealed until you let a significant number of the player base hammer away at it. ...and yes, we do sell and deliver ammo. 425 Express Delivery is available upon request, please see Hans Gates and Marcus Grisbius regarding this option.

Jezala Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.19 19:26:00 - [161] Originally by: stummer it's nice to hear that some concerns regarding certain ships have been addressed and seem to have been addressed in an intelligent manner. What worries me is yet another hp buff, which seem to effect negatively those with low dps weapons, thinking mostly of Arties here or those which need to maintain cap to both tank and fight, yet again it seems to be a boast caldari at the exspense of every one else. It's not a racial issue (Caldari vs everyone else) that we're facing here. It is really a stealth nerf to cap eating weapons. Drone ships, missile boats, and autocannon users are not going to face a cap disadvantage here. ...and yes, we do sell and deliver ammo. 425 Express Delivery is available upon request, please see Hans Gates and Marcus Grisbius regarding this option.
Rakeris Legio VIII	Posted - 2006.10.19 19:27:00 - [162] I hope the changes are tested very thoroughly as well. The biggest thing that doesn't make since to me, is why give T2 ships less? Won't that give quite a few T1 ships more HP than T2 ones? ---------- I gave up on sigs. As all the beatings are starting to hurt and leave nasty bruises.
SonShadowCat PINK TACO TORPERS	Posted - 2006.10.19 19:34:00 - [163] SO when are these changes being put on TQ? With Kali?
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.10.19 19:36:00 - [164] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 19/10/2006 19:39:20 Originally by: Jezala This is a massive change to combat mechanics that you guys are considering here. I strongly recommend that you put this out on the test server for a couple of months. You may want to organize some formal test events with the player base like you guys did with the recent stress tests. There are going to be a ton of hidden issues that won't be revealed until you let a significant number of the player base hammer away at it. Bold, Italicized QFT. Shouldn't need to be said, but still. Even more important, I hope the Devs are open to reevaluating these changes before release if they turn out to create more problems than benefits. edit: Maybe "Revelations" name should be changed to "Re-evaluations". Catchy, no? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.19 19:42:00 - [165] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 19/10/2006 19:42:37 Dev chat lols I'd like to point out how many people aren't intending to renew their accounts over this, also. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford. [/center]
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.19 19:44:00 - [166] Whine whine cry cry sulk sulk You have at least a month before these changes get into effect, train for a ship that won't suck and stop complaining. CCP is putting in changes, finally! Aton of you are people who think inside the box and are already complaining how their ship might suck or not in the coming changes. Deal with it. Part of this game is adapting.
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.19 19:47:00 - [167] best. thread. evar. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Originally by: Reddari Now just be nice before I start to make life for the BOB devs (yes you have some) harder by exposing their player characters.
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.10.19 19:47:00 - [168] Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio Whine whine cry cry sulk sulk You have at least a month before these changes get into effect, train for a ship that won't suck and stop complaining. CCP is putting in changes, finally! Aton of you are people who think inside the box and are already complaining how their ship might suck or not in the coming changes. Deal with it. Part of this game is adapting. People who say "STFU, IF YOU DONT LIKE IT TRAIN FOR ANOTHER SHIP, ADAPT!!!1111" are ignorant ****-brained idiots.
Anominity Amarr Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.10.19 20:10:00 - [169] I propose making all Laser based Amarrian ships obsolete, and replacing them with Catapults instead, that way we need no Cap, and we deal Kinetic damage!!!
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.19 20:13:00 - [170] Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio Whine whine cry cry sulk sulk You have at least a month before these changes get into effect, train for a ship that won't suck and stop complaining. CCP is putting in changes, finally! Aton of you are people who think inside the box and are already complaining how their ship might suck or not in the coming changes. Deal with it. Part of this game is adapting. Coming from calderi, not surprised. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-

Mihae Bad Karma.	Posted - 2006.10.19 20:21:00 - [171] Just remember to increase the HP of the factionships aswell (with the 50%). Otherwise you would make them completly unflyable. Quote: B34G
xenorx 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.19 20:21:00 - [172] Originally by: Anominity I propose making all Laser based Amarrian ships obsolete, and replacing them with Catapults instead, that way we need no Cap, and we deal Kinetic damage!!! No the future of eve combat is to use harsh language and rude hand gestures. Then the players redock and reminice about the good old days when you would actually get a kill mail after combat. No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.19 20:35:00 - [173] Originally by: Tasty Burger Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio Whine whine cry cry sulk sulk You have at least a month before these changes get into effect, train for a ship that won't suck and stop complaining. CCP is putting in changes, finally! Aton of you are people who think inside the box and are already complaining how their ship might suck or not in the coming changes. Deal with it. Part of this game is adapting. People who say "STFU, IF YOU DONT LIKE IT TRAIN FOR ANOTHER SHIP, ADAPT!!!1111" are ignorant ****-brained idiots. Good logic, nice points. Wait, nevermind....
Altai Saker Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.10.19 20:47:00 - [174] very worried about the hp increase... other than that ( and its a huge THAT) I like everything else.
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.19 20:47:00 - [175] Pretty important question: Quote: Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 No stacking penalty? Ie: 2x WCS = 4x longer locking time? Or stacking penalty as usual?
Anominity Amarr Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.10.19 20:49:00 - [176] Edited by: Anominity on 19/10/2006 20:50:17 Edited by: Anominity on 19/10/2006 20:49:08 Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio mindless drivle Oh, i am sorry, do you fly the Raven? If no, do you fly the Ferox? If no, do you fly the Nighthawk? Please explain to me what relevance any of this stuff has to you. Fascinating how all you can say is "Train something else", well to that, i respond with, "You can go play something else." The simple fact of the matter is that we as Amarr ARE getting gimped by this, you would not have seen me complain prior to this, as quite frankly i have been quite happy with the performance of my ships, but with this proposed change, i KNOW for a fact that my geddon will run out of cap before killing anything more than a HAC. (Some of them may even survive long enough to have the same effect) And don't come at me saying "Adapt", I adapt more than most, I just do it within my own race. Fitting a Heavy Cap Booster on a Geddon will leave me having to drop my guns down a notch. and still not have an active tank, as it is i passive armor tank. PS. I believe the minmatar slaves are also in need of help on the arti front, as this has a very similar effect on them. (not that i care ¼¼)
BustyBounty Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.19 20:52:00 - [177] i hope drones and fighters are getting a hitpoint boost aswell! are npc ships going to get a hitpoints increase aswell? if so then its just one big nerf to ratting which kinda sucks ------------------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance I belong to.
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.19 20:54:00 - [178] Originally by: Anominity Edited by: Anominity on 19/10/2006 20:50:17 Edited by: Anominity on 19/10/2006 20:49:08 Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio mindless drivle Oh, i am sorry, do you fly the Raven? If no, do you fly the Ferox? If no, do you fly the Nighthawk? Please explain to me what relevance any of this stuff has to you. Fascinating how all you can say is "Train something else", well to that, i respond with, "You can go play something else." The simple fact of the matter is that we as Amarr ARE getting gimped by this, you would not have seen me complain prior to this, as quite frankly i have been quite happy with the performance of my ships, but with this proposed change, i KNOW for a fact that my geddon will run out of cap before killing anything more than a HAC. (Some of them may even survive long enough to have the same effect) And don't come at me saying "Adapt", I adapt more than most, I just do it within my own race. Fitting a Heavy Cap Booster on a Geddon will leave me having to drop my guns down a notch. and still not have an active tank, as it is i passive armor tank. PS. I believe the minmatar slaves are also in need of help on the arti front, as this has a very similar effect on them. (not that i care ¼¼) So are us minmy's man, we feel your pain (ic: good for you! wheres your god now!) But yea, in order to stay competitive I now have all 4 races of BS trained up, something calderi/gallente dont have to do, and this little mindless drivle additude that the calderi/gallente players have is not something we should even entertain. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Brugar Minmatar Dragonlance Production	Posted - 2006.10.19 21:12:00 - [179] /sigh This game belongs to the Caldari. Can you guys (CCP) just convert all our other races to Caldari and get this over with, instead of this long drawn out version to convert us all to one Master Race?
Brugar Minmatar Dragonlance Production	Posted - 2006.10.19 21:16:00 - [180] Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio Whine whine cry cry sulk sulk You have at least a month before these changes get into effect, train for a ship that won't suck and stop complaining. CCP is putting in changes, finally! Aton of you are people who think inside the box and are already complaining how their ship might suck or not in the coming changes. Deal with it. Part of this game is adapting. And you, as Caldari, have learned to adapt how exactly?

Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.19 21:39:00 - [181] Originally by: Nicocat I'm going to go dig up a study someone did on how your graphics card is a more powerful processor than... well... your processor. When rigged up right. Tell me when they do IEEE floating point... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Vince Draken Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.19 21:54:00 - [182] Edited by: Vince Draken on 19/10/2006 21:57:29 Originally by: Sugintou This is really sad... Why bother with Stabs now, in combat? Who's to say (FLUFF-WISE) a pilot wouldn't install a warp stab to improve combat performance, to help being pinned down, to help him maintain combat distance. If the enemy can come close enough to negate striking distance, all stratgem is lost, and when all stratgem is lost, then the fight is lost. I think they're a perfectly fine module in combat. Thier 'nerf' is losing a low slot, with a benefit you may, or may not need. I hope you reconsider this, Tuxford. It really doesn't make sense, and is probably being done due to all the pilots who complain about them, without presenting any real reasons other then they don't like it, because they can't commit E-murder as efficiently. rofl Its taken over 3 years but finally by god they got corrected. I wish it was harsher but this should do nicely. WCS AREN'T FOR COMBAT, THEY ARE FOR RUNNING. WCS don't efect range, thats called speed. Artilley and amar remain gimped (more so now), I guess its time to train gallante and caldari. At the risk of sounding negative, these changes seem to me the easy way out of fixing dmg in big fleet battles. The above thoughts and statements are IC and should be taken as such.
Tar Ecthelion Kryomek Industries	Posted - 2006.10.19 21:54:00 - [183] About time WCS got nerfed. Now all we need is the ECM nerf and things will be looking up. HP increase is a good idea, but as long as some points raised throughout this thread are looked at (Arties and lasers). Now all we need is Khanid MkII and i'll be quietly content. ..... "When you kill a man it costs nothing to be polite" Winston Churchill
Mitchman Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.10.19 22:00:00 - [184] Edited by: Mitchman on 19/10/2006 22:02:37 Some fundamental problems with the HP increase, as I mentioned in the dev chat: - Cap intensive weapon, such as lasers and hybrids, will be at a disadvantage as it will take much longer to kill a target and cap will be a problem. This is particulary a problem in small gang combat or 1 vs 1. - Cap charges (which btw has been used in PvP since 2003-2004 and is not a new thing) will last nowhere near enough, particulary if you're using hybrid or lasers. - The agression timers would need to be modified upwards as it would be even easier to tank and dock or tank and jump now. Proposed solution: - Reduce cap use on hybrid and lasers by atleast 50%. - Reduce the volume on cap charges by 50%. - Increase the agression timers by atleast 50%. - Ammo volume needs to be reduced by atleast 50%. I love the WCS nerf. Finally.
Vince Draken Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.19 22:13:00 - [185] Originally by: Shin Ra Also, with all this HP buffs, can u increase the agression timer FFS. Agree'd Tbh, the whole agroo thing needs work. Look at the current jump-log bullcrap.... The above thoughts and statements are IC and should be taken as such.
Mysterlee Gallente 5punkorp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.19 22:15:00 - [186] Originally by: Mitchman Proposed solution: - Reduce cap use on hybrid and lasers by atleast 50%. - Reduce the volume on cap charges by 50%. - Increase the agression timers by atleast 50%. - Ammo volume needs to be reduced by atleast 50%. This ^ Also, a possible solution to the arty alpha strike complaints would be to decrease rate of fire (make it take longer for those that might misread that) and increase the damage modifier.
Vince Draken Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.19 22:24:00 - [187] Originally by: Anominity I propose making all Laser based Amarrian ships obsolete, and replacing them with Catapults instead, that way we need no Cap, and we deal Kinetic damage!!! ROFL But, isn't that wht minmatars already do? The above thoughts and statements are IC and should be taken as such.
Copine Callmeknau The Splinter Syndicate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.19 22:37:00 - [188] Edited by: Copine Callmeknau on 20/10/2006 00:01:44 I like most of the changes, but the 50% to HP is just plain stupid. Such a ridiculously high amount will swing game balance way out. Artillery on all ship classes is going to be pointless now, completely pointless. You could fix it by doubling both the base damage mod and the base RoF, giving us our alphastrike back, but then Arts will be borked compared to other long range guns. AC's will be pretty bad in combat now as well, we'll be using exorbitant amounts of ammunition, and we know that T2 ammunition isn't cheap. As well as that we'll need triple the cargo bay to actually carry the rounds in the first place, cargo space is pretty tight as it is. Scrap the 50% HP boost, it does nothing but nerf combat in all it's forms. On top of that it promotes blobbing ------- See the idiot walk, see the idiot talk
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.19 22:39:00 - [189] Edited by: keepiru on 19/10/2006 22:39:31 Originally by: tuxford Personally I like the idea of the possibility of running out of charges in a fight. Well, I'll have 2 ounces of whatever it is he's smoking. If it makes the prospect of running out of cap charges halfway through your 1st fight after undocking sound like fun/tactical combat - which is what we're looking at here - it must be good stuff. Tux man, lay off the crash for a while, will ya? ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.19 22:47:00 - [190] Edited by: Master OlavPancrazio on 19/10/2006 22:52:18 Edited by: Master OlavPancrazio on 19/10/2006 22:49:22 Edited by: Master OlavPancrazio on 19/10/2006 22:48:23 Oh my god, I'm caldari specced, that means I'm entirely unable to be unbiased in calling you all tards for whining at the slightest change to any of your strategies. I don't see anything wrong with ANY of the changes. Longer fights? Ok... WCS nerfed... we've been asking for that forever. You guys only look at changes and see how they will nerf your individual ships. I look at them and see it as the right direction. Sure it might cause some imbalance in the short term, but that will hopefully be fixed, later. As it is now, it's not like Eve is perfectly balanced anyways. All I know is being a proponent of progression you always have complete whiny omg i'm not gonna own anymore people on the other side of the fence trying to stop all and every change as it might make their current tried and true strategies need to be re-thought. Besides being caldari, I don't see any of the changes that are going to directly affect me either, good or bad. Sure that nighthawk looks neat but I don't feel like training for BC 5 when I can just use a Raven. But hey if your entire argument for anything who opposed you results in you calling them caldari... well good luck in that. Technically the WCS nerf nerfs caldari as I can fit WCS on most of my ships without any loss of function. Oh no, "whine whine *** *** sulk sulk" I do think however that more thought should be looked at surrounding that HP change, most noticely ships that require cap boosters to shoot for longer periods of time.

BlackHorizon Caldari Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.19 22:54:00 - [191] Are pod hitpoints getting boosted too? If not, you minmatar have still something to do with that artillery.
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:08:00 - [192] Edited by: Randay on 19/10/2006 23:08:13 Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio Oh no, "whine whine *** * sulk sulk" post your losses. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Originally by:** Reddari Now just be nice before I start to make life for the BOB devs (yes you have some) harder by exposing their player characters.
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:11:00 - [193] While on the face of it, this seems to be boosting destroyers, it simply kills them. As it is, unless an intercepter is already at 1/2 armor when it gets into range, the destroyer is toast. it can't hope to compete dps wise with it. Destroyers are alpha strike monsters vs there intended targets. Even tech I frigs with a single damage bonus are going to be an issue. Destroyers are competing with twice the guns, a huge dps penalty, and almost no room for a tank. A cormorant for example, becuase it handles like a pig, needs 1-2 tracking computers with 125mm's and good tracking skills to be able to hit something up close. It HAS to be able to hit up close now becuase there is no way in Hades it is going to be able to pop a MWDing frig before it is right on top of him from even 70 km away.
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:12:00 - [194] that loss is posted =p
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:19:00 - [195] Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio that loss is posted =p http://killboard.eve-d2.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=4533 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Originally by: Reddari Now just be nice before I start to make life for the BOB devs (yes you have some) harder by exposing their player characters.
Grytok	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:28:00 - [196] I'll just wait until those changes are deployed. AND THEN ANOTHER TWO DAYS UNTIL THEY REALIZE, THAT THEY TOTALLY SCREWED UP .
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:28:00 - [197] Edited by: Master OlavPancrazio on 19/10/2006 23:28:30 http://ehj.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=details&kill=1601
Lunas Feelgood Euphoria Released	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:28:00 - [198] Originally by: Randay Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio that loss is posted =p http://killboard.eve-d2.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=4533 Who cares?? Anyway gallante and amarr ships gonna have a really heavy cap prop in small skirmis fights.. You might need to look into that
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:33:00 - [199] Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio Edited by: Master OlavPancrazio on 19/10/2006 23:28:30 http://ehj.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=details&kill=1601 thanks. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Originally by: Reddari Now just be nice before I start to make life for the BOB devs (yes you have some) harder by exposing their player characters.
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:35:00 - [200] I cant be bothered to think about these changes anymore but seriously... you devs apparently haven't even thought of the ramifications of an HP boost. The simple version, basically, is that it makes gallente even stronger and amarr/minmatar even ****tier.

HP Hatecraft AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:36:00 - [201] Originally by: Rakeris I hope the changes are tested very thoroughly as well. The biggest thing that doesn't make since to me, is why give T2 ships less? Won't that give quite a few T1 ships more HP than T2 ones? Not to double-post on the topic, but I think the above quote illustrates on of my main concerns. I am a year old, and I am afraid that this HP change will gimp my character pretty severely. I will be beyond disappointed. And the funny thing is that I am not gettin screwed by this nearly as much as the amar or minis. Extending the life-expectancy in combat is not a needed change. This seems to be an attempt to totally overhaul the mechanics of the combat aspects of the game. As I said in a previous post, if you want more blob on blob combat you need to make sure that TQ will be capable of handling large fleet engaugments... which sadly... it is not, and honestly I don't blame you for that. I understand the physical limitations of hardware. But, what you are doing here is all but eliminating the opportunity for my small group of friends from going out and have a bit of PVP fun. By the time we kill the new HP+ BSs there will be 3 more targeting my friends and I... and FFS we are all gonna be piloting T2 cruisers which are seriously getting gimped here. You are trying to tell me that my T2 cruiser may have less HP than the like modeled T1 cruiser? Come on. Why did I spend a ridiculous amount of ISK on my ship? It wasn't just for the HAS bonuses and resist... it was for armor and shield too. Not to mention, my HAS will now have an impossible time of taking on a BS where as before I had a shot if I played it right. I dunno, maybe I'm talkin out my @$$, and maybe I deserve to get flamed... maybe I deserve to be ignored... but the way I see it, I have to put my 2 cents out there because I think the HP bonus has not been deeply examined at all. Please, Tux, explain, in detail, to your player base why you would like to increase HP. It seems like most of us would really like some good explaination. And for the record, I really respect CCP for what they have done with Eve. This is a difficult business to succeed in, and I am trying hard not to bash you for the potential change because I know you are just trying to make your game more appealing to the masses. But then again, you also have to take care of your existing players too. Thanks for all the fun, -HP
Illuminaty ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:40:00 - [202] The DEVs have been saying for a long time now that they wish to make combat longer so they can implement new things for combat. The 50% increase in HPs isn't a suprise to me at all, because they've been saying they were going to do something like this for a while now. If you read any of the DEV blogs at all, you'll know that this is likely one step in a multi-step proccess to change combat. Sooo.... just take a chill pill and wait for them to do their thing. For all you know, when they are done Arty and lasers will be hands-down superior to missiles. No game more advanced than tic-tac-toe has ever been 100% balanced. Stop worrying about it, it isn't the end of the world, and your time to be slightly ahead of everyone else will come agian. Things take time, but the internet moves at a fast pace. Just chill out, stop worrying, cancel your sub if that makes you feel like a tough guy, but stop with the hysteria.
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:51:00 - [203] Edited by: Master OlavPancrazio on 19/10/2006 23:53:18 That is pretty much the same thoughts I have. Thanks for wording it a little nicer though Illum. Oh and randay why the hell do you use tech two wasps? I hear they are a bit crappy.
Recluse Viramor Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:51:00 - [204] Originally by: Mitchman Edited by: Mitchman on 19/10/2006 22:02:37 Some fundamental problems with the HP increase, as I mentioned in the dev chat: - Cap intensive weapon, such as lasers and hybrids, will be at a disadvantage as it will take much longer to kill a target and cap will be a problem. This is particulary a problem in small gang combat or 1 vs 1. - Cap charges (which btw has been used in PvP since 2003-2004 and is not a new thing) will last nowhere near enough, particulary if you're using hybrid or lasers. - The agression timers would need to be modified upwards as it would be even easier to tank and dock or tank and jump now. Proposed solution: - Reduce cap use on hybrid and lasers by atleast 50%. - Reduce the volume on cap charges by 50%. - Increase the agression timers by atleast 50%. - Ammo volume needs to be reduced by atleast 50%. I love the WCS nerf. Finally. QFT Don't fix what ain't broken.
ChalSto The Galactic Empire Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.20 00:07:00 - [205] Good bye EvE............ well.......where is my WoW account again? After 3 years in EvE, I finaly can say, that I lost more ships due to lag and bugs, than in any battle.
Firane Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.20 00:11:00 - [206] So wait, does this mean it will take 50% longer to kill rats, making us money 50% slower? .................... -----------
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.20 00:23:00 - [207] Originally by: Illuminaty No game more advanced than tic-tac-toe has ever been 100% balanced. Tic-tac-toe is not 100% balanced. Nerf the center square. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Originally by: Reddari Now just be nice before I start to make life for the BOB devs (yes you have some) harder by exposing their player characters.
Taurinthia	Posted - 2006.10.20 00:54:00 - [208] Originally by: ChalSto Good bye EvE............ well.......where is my WoW account again? Oh NO! Time to call the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance. Ya big whiney babies in LV - just wait for the devs to do their thing :) In the meantime, can I have your stuff? :)
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.20 01:00:00 - [209] reads changes WTS: Minmatar Frigate, Minmatar Cruiser, Small Projectile, Medium Projectile skillbooks.... Originally by: Wrangler Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.20 01:15:00 - [210] wow 50% hp buff is really stupid as now quick strikes deep into enemy territory are useless as you can't kill stuff in time without the blob showing up. So basically this patch screws over minmatar cause their lack of dps Screws over amarr cause their gank ships will run out of cap before target is dead Screws over blaster gallente ships because they will run out of cap before target is dead Hey guys guess the only thing we can do is train up caldari missle ships and drone boats weeee! What a stupid change In rust we trust!!! Right here Tux ,,\|,,

Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.10.20 01:25:00 - [211] HP boost has so many implications 1) Cap sustainability in a battle 2) More blobs to make kills 3) Docking and jumping timers. I'm sure theres plenty more but these ones make me wonder how well this change has been thought through.
Xordus Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.20 02:10:00 - [212] Hooray Tuxford!! I've been waiting for a stab nerf for so long and this one is actually one of the better ideas. Also can't wait to hear about ecm changes :D I'm very happy about most changes. The only one I'm worried about is HP. It will effect alot more than just making a fight last longer. It will effect cap, ammo, cargo size (cap boosters/ammo), speed, aggression timers (30secs doesnt seem as long when you have 50% more hp). One thing I'm worried about most I think is 1600 plates on cruisers. 50% increase in plate/extender hp will influence smaller ships heavily I think. Already it is a bit unbalanced having large plates/extenders on smaller ships but not I think this may make them necessary. We leave it in your hands, don't let us down. Xordus
Lygos ISS Navy Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.20 02:53:00 - [213] Hey, looks like my geddon will now be armored by lag. --- Private Investment should preceed Public Investment
Kalixa Hihro	Posted - 2006.10.20 03:30:00 - [214] can I have your children? no seriously this is all great news. Gallente will have a viable hac now I can fit stuff in the empty midslots on my helios and no more stababonds/stabathrons Warp core disruptors/scramblers will actually do something against combat ships now This is as good as winning lotto. I could cry tears of joy right now. More fighting, less running. -Kal /----------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ My opinion in no way represents that of my corp or anyone I am associated with, and is probably entirely wrong.
Fred 104 New Justice	Posted - 2006.10.20 03:33:00 - [215] Originally by: Randay Originally by: Illuminaty No game more advanced than tic-tac-toe has ever been 100% balanced. Tic-tac-toe is not 100% balanced. Nerf the center square. I disagree, it's not the center square, it's X getting to go first. Nerf X!!
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.20 03:48:00 - [216] Hey everyone start training drones or missles cause anything else is going to be completely **** after this patch. In rust we trust!!!** Right here Tux ,,\|,,
Tyler Lowe Minmatar DROW Org Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 04:10:00 - [217] Edited by: Tyler Lowe on 20/10/2006 04:10:53 Tuxford, The changes look pretty good, although the HP increase gives me some concerns about Minmatar ships. There are two areas that I'm seeing trouble with. One has been pointed out repeatedly already, and that is artillery. The other is the shield boost bonus. The Cyclone and it's command ship counterparts currently have a max 37.5% shield boost ship bonus, which you well know. My understanding is that the bonus was made 7.5% per level because the amplification bonus was weaker than a straight 5% per level resistance bonus. As a practical matter, the larger the buffer is, the better that resistance bonus becomes. This concern also applies to Gallante battlecruisers and command ships with their repair amount bonus. My questions are: Is artillery being looked at in terms of a DPS increase through rate of fire and/or clip size increase? Has the relationship between boost bonus and reistance bonus been re-evaluated in light of the planned HP increase? I'm guessing you're pretty busy at the moment with the expansion looming large, just hoping these items are not being overlooked. Thanks. J.A.F.O.
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2006.10.20 04:23:00 - [218] Originally by: Mitchman Edited by: Mitchman on 19/10/2006 22:02:37 Some fundamental problems with the HP increase, as I mentioned in the dev chat: - Cap intensive weapon, such as lasers and hybrids, will be at a disadvantage as it will take much longer to kill a target and cap will be a problem. This is particulary a problem in small gang combat or 1 vs 1. - Cap charges (which btw has been used in PvP since 2003-2004 and is not a new thing) will last nowhere near enough, particulary if you're using hybrid or lasers. - The agression timers would need to be modified upwards as it would be even easier to tank and dock or tank and jump now. Proposed solution: - Reduce cap use on hybrid and lasers by atleast 50%. - Reduce the volume on cap charges by 50%. - Increase the agression timers by atleast 50%. - Ammo volume needs to be reduced by atleast 50%. I love the WCS nerf. Finally.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.20 04:35:00 - [219] Originally by: Tyler Lowe Edited by: Tyler Lowe on 20/10/2006 04:10:53 Tuxford, The changes look pretty good, although the HP increase gives me some concerns about Minmatar ships. There are two areas that I'm seeing trouble with. One has been pointed out repeatedly already, and that is artillery. The other is the shield boost bonus. The Cyclone and it's command ship counterparts currently have a max 37.5% shield boost ship bonus, which you well know. My understanding is that the bonus was made 7.5% per level because the amplification bonus was weaker than a straight 5% per level resistance bonus. As a practical matter, the larger the buffer is, the better that resistance bonus becomes. This concern also applies to Gallante battlecruisers and command ships with their repair amount bonus. My questions are: Is artillery being looked at in terms of a DPS increase through rate of fire and/or clip size increase? Has the relationship between boost bonus and reistance bonus been re-evaluated in light of the planned HP increase? I'm guessing you're pretty busy at the moment with the expansion looming large, just hoping these items are not being overlooked. Thanks. in the irc chat Tux basically said ** off to artillery users with some retarded logic behind his statements saying that they were fine with the hp boost. In rust we trust!!!** Right here Tux ,,\|,,
Raid Caldari Tyrell Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.20 05:06:00 - [220] on the plus side t2 1400's will go down in price... At the very least there should be a clip size increase on Arty because its going to take 50% more ammo to get the job done!

Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.20 06:18:00 - [221] If you want more HP why can't you rework resistances of T1 ships balance out for faction warfare instead of giving raw HP? Or maybe bringing out viable structure tanking and fixed HP based hull platings instead of crap % based ones. I'd really like to see what you have instore for Artillery uniqueness because all you are doing is setting yourself up for doubling the arty blob #s and/or mass subscription cancellations. Maybe its about time you make some racial gang modules that affect guns to further seperate them. Then work those gang modules into the new 'squad' system for gangs to make them futher enhance the weapon systems. Arty doesn't look too good with these changes. I will sit back and watch but it don't look so hot. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Serj Darek Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2006.10.20 06:24:00 - [222] I must say that I'm going to wait and see what the patchnotes will say. But atm I feel very dissapointed. Being Minmatar specialized and playing since 2003, I have seen gimping and nerfing to the left and right of the Matari. But this takes the prize. This is the first time that I feel dissapointed to the extent of feeling like not logging in at all. Except for perhaps skillchange. But like I said, I want to see patchnotes before making any decisions. Dissapointed. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes It contains my ingame name and corp ticker - Serj
TerrorWOLF J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:02:00 - [223] Edited by: TerrorWOLF on 20/10/2006 07:07:43 50% more HP (mixed feeling about it, but bad is wining) lasers vs 2xEAN II + DC tank even worse now. If you could kill your target before you run out of cap before forget it now if you happen to be so unlucky to find a shield tank just eject, waste of time even trying. End of Amarr. Minmatar weapons aren't on the wining side ether. It is so good that i can fly Amarr and Minmatar Edit: One question. Why are there gate guns in low sec ?? Its to easy to tank them as it is. Will make travel in low sec impassible if you not in a insta warp ship with instas. May Your Death Be Slow And Painful
franny Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:06:00 - [224] as a domi pilot(gall bs 5, hvy drones 5, etc).... the 50% HP buff without retweaking half the weapon systems is just wrong so with the buff, I just tank(what the domi does anyway), and nos them till they run out of cap, stick my drones on em, then hit go afk for 10 minutes?, come back to see my killmail.... sounds like fun for the most part, everything but the HP changes look good and WCS nerf!!!! about f'n time
d'hofren Queens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:09:00 - [225] Originally by: TerrorWOLF 50% more HP (mixed feeling about it, but bad is wining) laseres vs 2xEAN II + DC tank even worse now. If you could kill your target befor runing out of cap before forget it now if you happan to be so unlucky to fint a shield tank just ejact, waste of time even trying. End of Amarr. Minmatar weapond arent on the wining side eather. It is so good that i can fly Amarr and Minmatar <DevilsEnigma> <Bek> Question: Are you happy with the current state of Amarrian ships and weapons? Do you feel they're balanced in relationship to the other races in Eve today? <Oveur> Oh, I forgot earlier, system wide belts could be a realization as part of this change <tuxford> I'm typing not ignoring you <Oveur> tuxford is still typing, he's not ignoring you <tuxford> Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums. The problem is that there are some problems with Amarr but aren't really fixed by changing Amarr. <tuxford> One problem is damage types and eanm. The problem isn't fixed by boosting laser damage but changing EANM. How has yet to be decided on. <tuxford> Another problem is how hard it is to fit beams but tbh other races have that as well like Minmatar <tuxford> The third is that Amarr is missing something extra special, some flavor. <tuxford> we do indeed talk about these things but in general I think certain people tend to overexaggerate the problem
Doxs Roxs White Wolves Defence league The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:24:00 - [226] Did anyone consider what this WCS nerf will do to new players trying to run lvl3 and lvl4 missions? I can tell you that any new player trying out certain lvl3 or 4 missions will be dead meat unless he has stabs fitted. A t1 tank and semi good support skills will not cut it. Imagine if you were a newb and tried to do a mission with perhaps 10-15km targeting range on a Ferox? When I was new I relied on using 1 or 2 stabs on most missions since I had no hope what so ever of tanking everything if I got aggro from the entire stage. I also did not stand a chance of killing the small frigs in time with my drones since I simply did not have enough SP invested in them. The alternative after a nerf such as this one is that you enter a mission with a seriously gimped targeting range. And no, wasting slots on sensor boosters is not an alternative when you are new and can barely tank anyway. Just something to consider perhaps? Becouse I foresee alot of new players having a hard time with even the easier missions. Regards /Doxs After almost half a year, why is my face just a '!' ? And please fix the Javelin T2 rail ammunition...
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:33:00 - [227] Originally by: Doxs Roxs I can tell you that any new player trying out certain lvl3 or 4 missions will be dead meat unless he has stabs fitted. A t1 tank and semi good support skills will not cut it. Someone doing lvl3/4 with a T1 tank DESERVES to die. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:49:00 - [228] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Doxs Roxs I can tell you that any new player trying out certain lvl3 or 4 missions will be dead meat unless he has stabs fitted. A t1 tank and semi good support skills will not cut it. Someone doing lvl3/4 with a T1 tank DESERVES to die. I do missions level 3 in a rupture with t1 tank and guns and i do them just fine .
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:09:00 - [229] Edited by: DeadDuck on 20/10/2006 09:12:39 What if with the HP boost comes a Tec2 Ammo damage increase ? That would solve all the issues, am I correct ? I'm betting that with the HP boost we will see a reduce in the weapons range and a increase in Damage output. Guess we will have to wait for tuxford blog to see that. Anyway CCP seems to be betting on longer engagments, wich I find great.
Securion Wolfheart Caldari Semper Fidelis Industries	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:10:00 - [230] Edited by: Securion Wolfheart on 20/10/2006 09:12:03 Originally by: Tuxford I've been replying to the forums today. I'm just gonna list some of the smaller tweaks and changes here. LOL! "smaller"?!? Are you insane? Quote: Agility of battlecruisers and command ships boosted by 20% Yes! Finally. Quote: Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors LOL! I cant wait to tell the news to our local gatecampers! Muahaha! Quote: I didn't really check it but I'll probably increase shield recharge rate by about 50% as well just to be on the safe side "Probably"? Wtf... you dont know? Your just changing "a little" here and there and...?! Omg... I thought you devs was calculating every god damn %...? I know i am. Quote: Inertia stabilizers give decrease in mass as well as agility and give a penalty to signature radius They decrease mass, and give a larger sig? Im very tired, so im sure im missing something here? Wheres the logic in that? Quote: Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 Fair enough; those who wanna run can still run and the rest will still be sitting at the gates. ;) Quote: Shield extenders and plates increased by 50% Longer battles. VERY nice. Also more survivability against those retarded 12-yearolds that gatecamp. Quote: ECM changes - I'm blogging about that one, hopefully comes later today Yes ofcourse. I just bought a Blackbird. I should have seen it coming. :P Quote: I think this all of the stuff that is not big enought to deserve its own post. ........... "not big enough"? O M G. Quote: Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later. Well maybe you have just removed all T2 ammo from the game? or made it 500% more powerful? Another "small" change noone will notice, right? :) You seems to be on top of things... ;) I like it. I love it. It will completely f**kup my setups, but im not an idiot. I can analyze, adapt, and survive. Lets see if the gatecampers can. "Buhuuu, i cant kill indys in one shot, buhuuu". STFU. I wonder what Charles Darwin would have said. Some small problems though; Amarr cap? Im Caldari, so i dont care, but it seems like Amarr gets even worse now and they were bad from the start... EVE is Evolving. Evolve or die out. -----====----- "When you come slam bang up against trouble, it never looks half as bad if you face up to it." - John Wayne

Donmadefy	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:14:00 - [231] If hull repairers are removed, and the cost of repairing it increased at stations, you've got a decent isk sink
Mogubu League of Gentlemen O X I D E	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:20:00 - [232] Originally by: keepiru Someone doing lvl3/4 with a T1 tank DESERVES to die. They do not. Well, yeah, if they try to run lvl4s in a t1 without knowing what they are doing, they deserve it indeed. Lvl3s, however, shouldnt need wcs ever, and if you feel that you need one, maybe it is time to get some more skills. And oh my god Im happy I dont fly Amarr ships. That would suck so bad its not even funny. Devs, can you really not see that you are killing lasers as a viable weaponsystem? --- Buy mjolnir javelins or rage infernos? Eve-mail me!
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:26:00 - [233] My suggestion: Don't boost the HP's on T2 ships at all. T2 shouldn't mean better in every way, for example T2 varient has superior armour/shield technology (i.e. higher resistances - better tanking) but because of XYZ (mass considerations? or add background fluff here regarding shields) cannot physically mount as much armour/ have as large a shield. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:26:00 - [234] wow. I generally like changes, but 50% hp increase - man. Now in response to having to maintain cap, engaments will last FOREVER. No one will be willing to go straight gank, as it will no longer make sense to. I envision an increase in half nos - half AC ships out there. I guess we'll just have to see how it plays out.
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:27:00 - [235] furthermore, will drone HP's also be boosted?
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:30:00 - [236] And Gabriel - thanks for the link to 'office linbacker' propably the best commercial ever. made my morning. :)
Gwennec	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:38:00 - [237] Edited by: Gwennec on 20/10/2006 09:41:51 Firstly why in the hell everyone suddenly wants DPS increas on minmatar they didnt do most dps before and hell definetly not gonna do after the kali. All they need to is lower rof and increase one hit damage for so much talked alpha strike. Secondly all the whining of cap and ammo tux already said somewhere(cant remember) that hes looking the ammo size and cap issues, but in my opinion he should leave them as they are. It would only affect how you fit your ships more diversity on fitting. Great boosts tux keep them coming!
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:42:00 - [238] Originally by: Gwennec Fristly why in the hell everyone suddenly wants DPS increas on minmatar they didnt do most dps before and hell definetly not gonna do after the kali. Minmatar DPS is not changing with Kali. That's not the problem. The problem is that low DPS is more and more of a problem as you increase the length of combat. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford. [/center]
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:04:00 - [239] Edited by: Pottsey on 20/10/2006 10:08:55 Edited by: Pottsey on 20/10/2006 10:05:13 I understand the reason behind recharge change but its a shame. I was hoping rigs will let me break 37 seconds recharge. Just please donÆt boost command ship HP by 30% and recharge by 50%. ThatÆs a nerf thatÆs not needed. Still over all it should be a fun change. Only problem now is shield rechargers are pointless. Extenders are always better. EDIT: Shield recharge modules are now pretty much useless/pointless, you are always better off fitting extenders over recharges. Do drones get more HP? Passive shield tanking guide click here
Mysterlee Gallente 5punkorp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:17:00 - [240] Edited by: Mysterlee on 20/10/2006 10:18:39 I was testing out how much hp you would end up with fitting a 1600mm plate on cruisers after the changes. The thorax for example would end up with ((13131.5)1.25)+((3360x1.5)*1.25) = 8761 armour hp... This seems a bit much dont you think? It already takes a while to kill 1600mm plated cruisers and this will make it take even longer. If you still plan on going with the 50% ship hp increase I think you should leave the plate and shield extender hp as they are to avoid forcing everyone to fill their ships full of plates or extenders.

Doxs Roxs White Wolves Defence league The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:37:00 - [241] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Doxs Roxs I can tell you that any new player trying out certain lvl3 or 4 missions will be dead meat unless he has stabs fitted. A t1 tank and semi good support skills will not cut it. Someone doing lvl3/4 with a T1 tank DESERVES to die. Id say thats one of the most stupid comments Ive seen in a long time. How welcoming is that to new players? Personally I ran both lvl 3 and lvl 4 mission in a Ferox, I did have to warp out sometimes but it was quite a challenge. And that was with a T1 equipment and crappy skills. Regards /Doxs After almost half a year, why is my face just a '!' ? And please fix the Javelin T2 rail ammunition...
MrRookie Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:39:00 - [242] Along with the HP extension, naturally combat duration will increase but i don't belive the fix is that simple. Most ships rely heavily on the capacitor and might suffer from this, especially amarr and gallente ships. With the boosted HPs and the boosted plates I can imagen tanked Ravens with 15k HPs, and I doubt any Amarr ships will have a capacitor to live for the duration. Eksample raven vs apoc, If both ships run out of cap early in the fight an both of them still got shid loads of armor, this leaves Ravens or any projectile/missiles based ships with an even greater advantage than today. Drones need to match the HP increasement and Smartbombs need to scale with changes. Capacitors should gain a litle boost Cargo holds need an inreasment in their hold or the charges made a litle smaller If anything, the two points above would nerf the NOSes abit More HP on drones More damage on smartbombs or they'll be even more useless than today guy being attacked by a pirat in a complex Originally by:* Noluck Ned Notify Concord is on their way to help you, just hang in there, they are waiting for the gatekeeper to respawn
Halleck Gurney	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:45:00 - [243] Nighthawk's explosion velocity changed to launcher rate of fire bonus All this skill training just to get a Cerberus with 1 more missile slot and twice the sig radius ... diversity just took a bad hit Please don't.
DirtyHarry Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:52:00 - [244] I like the changes, however, cap charges need to take ALOT less cargo than they do right now else BThron is gonna be useless as cap will be dead long before the enemy goes pop. Havocide - DirtyHarry
Inen Minmatar OLE Mining Corp Miners With Attitude	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:53:00 - [245] This reminds me of SWG all over again with the new game enhancements. EVERY possible con was proposed, the problems the communit predicted occured, and they still released the changes. The most frusturating thing about MMORPG's is the pride of developers not realizing that they may have made an honest mistake and need to rething their proposals. I do not understand why Tuxford cannot just say: "we've heard, and we're thiking things over again." Hell, at least "we heard, we don't care, it's going in" would almost be better than now... almost.
GOLDEN LAMB	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:58:00 - [246] I share most of the concerns that are allready mentioned. Alpha strike, and thus arty, is getting less important (after the boost to the muninn to fit a whole rack of them), solo and small gang Pvp will get harder, more blob instead of less. Another important point to consider are t1&t2 BC and the new tier 3 BS. The active tank bonus is allready sub-par to the passive one and with the HP increase it will get even worse. Tux, do you really want to give the Matari a slow arty fleet ship, with a active shield boost bonus???? P.S.: Is this really a coincidence that you are talking about changing the Crystal Implant bonus to HP increase rather then boost bonus atm?
Ellen Page Awakening	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:08:00 - [247] No matter the changes ppl will always whine about it
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:13:00 - [248] I like 'em, I like 'em all! Especially the WCS nerf Am very dissapointed not to see a Sensor Booster nerf, though. It still makes no sense to me why that module boosts range AND locking time. IMO, it should either have nothing to do with locking time, or should have a locking time penalty brought in- a new module should be released that increses locking time instead. -----------------------------------------------
Mangold Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:22:00 - [249] I am pleased with the WCS nerf. It was about time for that. I am NOT pleased with the HP boost. I fail to see the reason for it due to 3 reasons. 1. The majority of fights are at gates or stations. With more HP it's even easier to dock or jump through a gate. How fun. You'll need more firepower to kill the ship fast. 2. Hit and runs with small ships will be more difficult as you need more firepower to kill the ship fast. 3. In large fleet battles you're usually dead in a couple of seconds when you are picked as primary. With the HP change you will survive a couple of more seconds. Sounds good? Not really. In most cases you're either close range and scrambled or long range and aligned to warp out. You're usually lagged up and can't warp out until you're dead anyway so why the change. Anyway, you'll need more firepower to kill the ship faster. The only thing this will lead to is more blobs. I don't like blobs and I don't like this change. It doesn't sound thought through. Please reconsider it. A last question, will sentry guns be upgraded? If not tanking sentries will be way to easy.
MrRookie Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:23:00 - [250] Originally by: Inen This reminds me of SWG all over again with the new game enhancements. EVERY possible con was proposed, the problems the communit predicted occured, and they still released the changes. The most frusturating thing about MMORPG's is the pride of developers not realizing that they may have made an honest mistake and need to rething their proposals. I do not understand why Tuxford cannot just say: "we've heard, and we're thiking things over again." Hell, at least "we heard, we don't care, it's going in" would almost be better than now... almost. Very dramatic reply concidering Tux made the statement 24 hours ago. guy being attacked by a pirat in a complex Originally by:* Noluck Ned Notify Concord is on their way to help you, just hang in there, they are waiting for the gatekeeper to respawn

Inen Minmatar OLE Mining Corp Miners With Attitude	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:28:00 - [251] Edited by: Inen on 20/10/2006 11:29:25 Originally by: MrRookie Originally by: Inen This reminds me of SWG all over again with the new game enhancements. EVERY possible con was proposed, the problems the communit predicted occured, and they still released the changes. The most frusturating thing about MMORPG's is the pride of developers not realizing that they may have made an honest mistake and need to rething their proposals. I do not understand why Tuxford cannot just say: "we've heard, and we're thiking things over again." Hell, at least "we heard, we don't care, it's going in" would almost be better than now... almost. You must not have read the dev blog where the questions raised here were ignored when asked. No, I do not think it is a premature response at all. Very dramatic reply concidering Tux made the statement 24 hours ago. You must not have read the blog where Tuxford completely ignored the situations raised in this thread and went around the problem with jokes. Not a premature response at all and a very very similar situation from SOE's response with SWG.
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:40:00 - [252] they are all very good but im iffy on the bonuses to hp especially to shields, considering that it also increases sheild recharge rate. It will make heavy shield tanks very hard to take down. but love the wcs nerf
Slarivet Caldari Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:50:00 - [253] I would love to come into this game as a brand-spankin' noob after this patch, really (not). My last MMORPG was completely broken in regards to money-intake versus required-spending. On top of approximately three hundred and seventeen changes the players have already brought up in this thread about what would need to be done to keep an HP boost from making this game go up in smoke, there's one that has yet to be added in terms of it taking AT LEAST 50% longer to kill NPCs unless it's left unbalanced (player ships can tank endlessly while crunching NPCs like dry toast) requiring rat and mission rat bounties to go up 50% AND the mission rewards and bonuses increased AND the time bonus length being extended. Otherwise newbs are gonna have a much harder time - the interface and complexity is tough enough (which is a positive thing) without having to deal with less isk/time of play. Can someone who is gung-ho on the idea of longer PvP battles explain why? I have limited PvP experience at this point, but I love the frenetic speed of it. I'm afraid that longer PvP battles would ENCOURAGE the logoff/run away problems. Can someone give me the upsides of longer PvP battles? (Yay nerf to pansy-sniping. Also glad I haven't trained Minmatar ships/weapons up much yet.)
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:50:00 - [254] Originally by: Mangold I am pleased with the WCS nerf. It was about time for that. I am NOT pleased with the HP boost. I fail to see the reason for it due to 3 reasons. 1. The majority of fights are at gates or stations. With more HP it's even easier to dock or jump through a gate. How fun. You'll need more firepower to kill the ship fast. 2. Hit and runs with small ships will be more difficult as you need more firepower to kill the ship fast. 3. In large fleet battles you're usually dead in a couple of seconds when you are picked as primary. With the HP change you will survive a couple of more seconds. Sounds good? Not really. In most cases you're either close range and scrambled or long range and aligned to warp out. You're usually lagged up and can't warp out until you're dead anyway so why the change. Anyway, you'll need more firepower to kill the ship faster. The only thing this will lead to is more blobs. I don't like blobs and I don't like this change. It doesn't sound thought through. Please reconsider it. A last question, will sentry guns be upgraded? If not tanking sentries will be way to easy. How about a boost to Stasis Webs? that'd hold them still long enough to kill. And fixing that silly bug where Webbing = instant warp allignment would be nice, too. -----------------------------------------------
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:55:00 - [255] Originally by: franny so with the buff, I just tank(what the domi does anyway), and nos them till they run out of cap, stick my drones on em, then hit go afk for 10 minutes?, come back to see my killmail.... sounds like fun u came back and u end up with losemail.... cause there's 5 more friends r feeding on your corpse - they have enought time to fly throu' many systems or refit at station . BLOBSKI FTW Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
Tharrn Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:08:00 - [256] Originally by: d'hofren <tuxford> Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums. The problem is that there are some problems with Amarr but aren't really fixed by changing Amarr. I can't for the heck of it figure out if you were sarcastic there. I'd say you were but the changes and your remark about cap charges actually indicate you were not :s Could you at least consider to make cap charges take less cargo? Now recruiting!
Magunus The Forsakened Few The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:14:00 - [257] Cut cap booster charges in half, leave capacity of injectors alone, and add a 1600 cap booster charge. Vary the damage type of projectile ammo so they always do at least some damage of every type with every ammo, making their low DPS harder to tank overall. --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Tehra Neru	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:16:00 - [258] This is why i don't like any changes which are applying to a game. 50% of the people are happy and 50% of the people will be angry/sad. Sure PvP will be better it seems, but i hope others relizes that NOT all people are PvPing, so that means mission runners who are 'afraid' loosing their ships get's their precious WCS nerfed. Sure it damages the outfit but hey.. that's what WCS are for. And to increase the HP.. well i don't know, i don't see any reason to increase it, as i said.. PvP's will be slightly happier as the battles will last 5min longer. Shield extenders and plates increase by 50%? Hmm ok.. i have no comments to this but it dosen't sounds right. (Poor arty users). ECM changes? Hmm.. ok so.. there are some people gatecamping and you need go for a run through.. you can't rely on WCS anymore so insted you try to ECM.. ooh, look it only works on 10km now.. i'm gonna loose my precious cargo. **** changes.. they always screw up a game.
Reite Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:19:00 - [259] haha always so much whining about every change in this game:D Btw. i have 2 different chars ready for fleetbattles. 1 amarr specced and 1 minmatar specced. I rather use the minmatar now, and i probably would rather choose the minmatar after this change. Minmatar doesnt have the best dps, but they got alot of other things going for them.
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:24:00 - [260] Originally by: Tehra Neru Sure PvP will be better it seems its not, it will be very much worser then now. Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.

The Wizz117	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:29:00 - [261] dont forget to boost the HP on my drones and fighters ------------------------------------------- That ccp created a universe doesen't mean they'r gods
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:32:00 - [262] Best changes ever. Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Zhaine B e l l u m	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:32:00 - [263] Originally by: Tehra Neru Fck changes.. they always screw up a game. Well that says it all doesn't it. That's why genuinely bad changes get into a game. Because this utterly stupid retarded view is so prevailant that Devs can't see the geniunely rational concerns amongst the OMG-I-CANT-TAKE-CHANGE mentality that leads so many people to post utter bullsht. Oh and to the people insulting and btching at Tux and other Devs: Yes! YES! That's the way to get heard! That's the way to get your concerns listened too! Personally insult someone for making a day old post of proposed changes! Yes, insult someone and the job they do, call them incompetant and stupid, put ",,\|,," in your bios! Yes, then you'll appear rational and logical and reasonable rather than look like a whining twelve year old cry baby! Don't give them any respect for the level of communication they have with this community, better than almost any other MMO Dev team! Don't recognise their hard work or effort, don't look beyond your own ships and set ups and how they'll be affected and do, of course assume that your twenty second old knee-jerk reaction is more well considered and well thought out than the proposed changes discussed by multiple Devs over time! Do make sure to make outrageous SWG comparisons based on one single post and not much else. DON'T, whatever you do, acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, the Devs are human and wont get things right the first time and may need polite suggestions and comments in order to fine tune things to get them right. Yes! Everyone! THIS is the way to get listened to. - - - - - - - - - - Quote:* I don't even want a ship, ships are for carebears. Give me a fish bowl for my head (to keep space out) and smear me with lard, then armed with a toasting fork-
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:37:00 - [264] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 20/10/2006 12:38:21 Good changes in general. I'm taking a wait-and-see on the HP increase thing, it could be good or bad. Less instakills, but on the other hand less people fitting stabs. We'll see. One side effect: stealth bombers just became even more useless. They need a rethink after this, badly.
Wheya Amarr Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:37:00 - [265] I like most changes and I eagerly await the ideas for EW. I dislike another HP increase because each additional armor HP comes with 60% (70% for Minnies) em resistance on t1 ships. This and the already overpowered and very popular armor plates and EANII are an additional nerf of em damage as long as the vast majority prefers to use armor tanks. This is a problem on t1 ships. T2 ship resistance is a different issue. Alphastrike becomes less important. Being able to choose the right ammo / missile becomes more an advantage. I assume a shorter reload time would be a very viable option for tweaking. I say shield extenders (which give a équestionableæ high passive recharge on assault / heavy assault ships) and armor plates are overpowered and most definitly donÆt need another boost. No more 1600mm plated cruiser setups with frigate weapons please. Another thing I would like to see for extenders/plates is if they would come with their very own éflatæ resistance of f.e. 35% resistance against all damage type which émixesæ with the shipÆs resistance. Example: ship has 2000 HP with 50% em and 10% explosive resistance and gets an additional armor plate with 1000HP and 35% flat resistance. Result would be a ship with 3000 HP and 2000/3000 * 50% + 1000/3000 * 35% = 45% em resistance and 2/310% + 1/335% = 18% explosive resistance. As others, including tux, already pointed out a HP increase will become another problem for ships using lasers and hybrids. Maybe increasing capacitor size (and recharge rate) for 100% - 500% could be a solution not only for this problem but also a solution for the problem of nosferatus. I would love to see longer fights as well. I believe the only way to make that happen is to find a solution (aka nerf) to focused fire. For all other solutions such as HP increase, better resistance or whatever there is always one counter-solution which is always working: if you canÆt manage to kill your enemy on your own before he can jump, or dock or jamm to escape, the counter-solution is to bring more friends. As long as focused fire exists every boost to defence encourages more blobs and ganks / gangs.
Zhaine B e l l u m	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:40:00 - [266] Edited by: Zhaine on 20/10/2006 12:40:54 Quote: We're actually quite aware of the alpha-strike effectiveness after the current changes and although we haven't really got anything concrete we feel happy with, we have some changes we want to check out in public testing. And yeah, I'm fine with you having an opinion, whatever that may be, but tux doesn't deserver that, he's very meticulous in how he works and if anything, he's always picking up leads, testing them out and seeing if the concerns are valid. At least, I get boatloads of emails from him with issues and conclusions drawn based on delving into it. See you on Sisi mate Wink Senior Producer EVE Online Should be quoted in here I think - - - - - - - - - - Quote: I don't even want a ship, ships are for carebears. Give me a fish bowl for my head (to keep space out) and smear me with lard, then armed with a toasting fork-
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:42:00 - [267] Originally by: Zhaine Edited by: Zhaine on 20/10/2006 12:40:54 Quote: We're actually quite aware of the alpha-strike effectiveness after the current changes and although we haven't really got anything concrete we feel happy with, we have some changes we want to check out in public testing. And yeah, I'm fine with you having an opinion, whatever that may be, but tux doesn't deserver that, he's very meticulous in how he works and if anything, he's always picking up leads, testing them out and seeing if the concerns are valid. At least, I get boatloads of emails from him with issues and conclusions drawn based on delving into it. See you on Sisi mate Wink Senior Producer EVE Online Should be quoted in here I think That's from where? Link? To be honest though, it's more empty words unless something is actually done about it. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Tehra Neru	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:44:00 - [268] Originally by: Zhaine Originally by: Tehra Neru Fck changes.. they always screw up a game. Well that says it all doesn't it. That's why genuinely bad changes get into a game. Because this utterly stupid retarded view is so prevailant that Devs can't see the geniunely rational concerns amongst the OMG-I-CANT-TAKE-CHANGE mentality that leads so many people to post utter bullsht. Oh and to the people insulting and b*tching at Tux and other Devs: Yes! YES! That's the way to get heard! That's the way to get your concerns listened too! Personally insult someone for making a day old post of proposed changes! Yes, insult someone and the job they do, call them incompetant and stupid, put ",,\|,," in your bios! Yes, then you'll appear rational and logical and reasonable rather than look like a whining twelve year old cry baby! Don't give them any respect for the level of communication they have with this community, better than almost any other MMO Dev team! Don't recognise their hard work or effort, don't look beyond your own ships and set ups and how they'll be affected and do, of course assume that your twenty second old knee-jerk reaction is more well considered and well thought out than the proposed changes discussed by multiple Devs over time! Do make sure to make outrageous SWG comparisons based on one single post and not much else. DON'T, whatever you do, acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, the Devs are human and wont get things right the first time and may need polite suggestions and comments in order to fine tune things to get them right. Yes! Everyone! THIS is the way to get listened to. Either you see where my dilemma lies or your just plain stupid. Seeing how previous MMO's has been so utterly destroyed in changes (SWG, EQ etc.) This is what i'm hoping that CCP will not go into. Mainly.. listening to people's choices and advices. Do you see anything wrong with the game as it is now? Hey, i'm optimistic, let's see how it turns out to be.. but seeing how Tux already said how the changes are.. my hopes are not so high. Do you see me insulting him? No.. so stop acting like a stuffed up bottle. If everyone agreed to the changes we wouldn't be here.
EvilNate Caldari Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:52:00 - [269] Originally by: Tuxford Inertia stabilizers give decrease in mass as well as agility and give a penalty to signature radius First off, thanks for the info and loving the stabs change. I have a question about the quote above. Does a penalty to sig mean that if I use a inert stab, I will have a smaller sig radius or a bigger one? If it's bigger, I'd like to understand why this is so, as it seems logical if you reduce mass, you reduce the effective "size" of your ship, hence reducing the sig radius? Thanks Nate
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:55:00 - [270] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Zhaine Edited by: Zhaine on 20/10/2006 12:40:54 Quote: We're actually quite aware of the alpha-strike effectiveness after the current changes and although we haven't really got anything concrete we feel happy with, we have some changes we want to check out in public testing. And yeah, I'm fine with you having an opinion, whatever that may be, but tux doesn't deserver that, he's very meticulous in how he works and if anything, he's always picking up leads, testing them out and seeing if the concerns are valid. At least, I get boatloads of emails from him with issues and conclusions drawn based on delving into it. See you on Sisi mate Wink Senior Producer EVE Online Should be quoted in here I think That's from where? Link? To be honest though, it's more empty words unless something is actually done about it. Linkage -----------------------------------------------

Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:00:00 - [271] This thread is hilarious. Minnies are mad because alpha strike is nerfed, and Gallente & Amarr are worried about running out of cap. Considering that rails use more cap than blasters, you would think that Caldari would be worried too. I think it's safe to say that nobody has a clue how these changes will impact the game.
Zhaine B e l l u m	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:03:00 - [272] Originally by: Tehra Neru Do you see me insulting him? No.. so stop acting like a stuffed up bottle. Bit about insulting wasn't aimed at you, apologies. And what do you mean "more empty words" Testy? The Devs here are not saints, they're just a Dev team with one of the best records in the world for forthcoming-ness and honesty. - - - - - - - - - - Quote: I don't even want a ship, ships are for carebears. Give me a fish bowl for my head (to keep space out) and smear me with lard, then armed with a toasting fork-
Asuo Elite United Corp Antigo Dominion	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:04:00 - [273] Sooo, a 50% increase to ship hitpoints. Will we see an increase in Sentry gun damage or was it part of the plan to make it easyer for pirates to operate in low sec. How will this affect pos warfare, tanking in a bs' swill get a lot easyer. ----------------------------------------------- EECC recuitment thread.
EvilNate Caldari Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:04:00 - [274] Originally by: Stephar This thread is hilarious. Minnies are mad because alpha strike is nerfed, and Gallente & Amarr are worried about running out of cap. Considering that rails use more cap than blasters, you would think that Caldari would be worried too. I think it's safe to say that nobody has a clue how these changes will impact the game. I think be giving everyone more HP is actualy gonna make people setup for more DPS and less tank, cause everyone now has a bigger buffer to play with. Add to the fact that cap is a worry in regards to tanking, remove the tank and you don't have to worry about your tank. Should be interesting I think. Nate
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:04:00 - [275] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Zhaine Edited by: Zhaine on 20/10/2006 12:40:54 Quote: We're actually quite aware of the alpha-strike effectiveness after the current changes and although we haven't really got anything concrete we feel happy with, we have some changes we want to check out in public testing. And yeah, I'm fine with you having an opinion, whatever that may be, but tux doesn't deserver that, he's very meticulous in how he works and if anything, he's always picking up leads, testing them out and seeing if the concerns are valid. At least, I get boatloads of emails from him with issues and conclusions drawn based on delving into it. See you on Sisi mate Wink Senior Producer EVE Online Should be quoted in here I think That's from where? Link? To be honest though, it's more empty words unless something is actually done about it. Maybe they notice that artillery will suck, but these HP changes do alot more than nerf artillery, they nerf an entire playstyle. Every change the devs make slowly moves EVE even further into blob warfare.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:06:00 - [276] Originally by: EvilNate Originally by: Tuxford Inertia stabilizers give decrease in mass as well as agility and give a penalty to signature radius First off, thanks for the info and loving the stabs change. I have a question about the quote above. Does a penalty to sig mean that if I use a inert stab, I will have a smaller sig radius or a bigger one? If it's bigger, I'd like to understand why this is so, as it seems logical if you reduce mass, you reduce the effective "size" of your ship, hence reducing the sig radius? Thanks Nate Your sig will increase (get worse). On the other hand, your mass and agility will improve, so your MWD speed and acceleration should be better. How much better vs. the penalty will decide if these modules become widely useful or not. If the bonus is good and penalty not too bad, I can see a lot of close-range MWD battleships fitting these. If you want a reason for the sig rad increase, try this: size and mass are not the same thing. Also, the signature radius of the ship is not the size of the ship, it's how "loud" the electromagnetic emissions from it are (making it easier to "see" and target). Various modules generate various weird field effects (MWD for example), increasing the EM visibility of the ship = increasing sig. Now, a magic-tech module that could actually decrease mass would be using some very funky physics, so it seems quite reasonable that it would generate weird effects in the local spacetime, i.e. increase sig. Other explanation: it's just a game, and this seems like a suitable penalty to give to the modules (compare to nanofiber reducing your hull amount).
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:09:00 - [277] Originally by: Zhaine And what do you mean "more empty words" Testy? The Devs here are not saints, they're just a Dev team with one of the best records in the world for forthcoming-ness and honesty. I mean that promising a look at something, or promising a change will come, has happened a lot in this game. Just because (insert dev here) says they're looking at something, doesn't mean it'll come to pass, and certainly doesn't mean that even if it does that it will happen within a reasonable timeframe. Actions speak louder than words. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Rexy DarkStar 1 Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:14:00 - [278] wonder if the typhoon is still up for more boosting, sure you can get nice theoretic damage out of it when you fit the biggest guns and nothing else, but in reality fitting siege's t2 with big autocannons just isnt gonna work. it was made a better ratter last patch, lets hope it gets a nice boost for pvp also ( yes i'm sure your pvp fit with nosses on it rocks, but that's more the mod then the ship) <We showed ours, where is yours>
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:17:00 - [279] all changes are "ok" instead of 50% ones. They Suck Hard. don't get them ingame please. Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:24:00 - [280] Originally by: MECTO all changes are "ok" instead of 50% ones. They Suck Hard. don't get them ingame please. Well, seeing as nobody really has a clue on how they will affect the big picture (despite lots of screaming and frothing at the mouth ), how about we test the changes first and then say "they suck", if needed? Yes, ships will be a lot harder to instapop. On the other hand, most combat ships won't be fitting stabs anymore. Oh sure, it sucks if you're a stabbed-up lowsec sniper pirate. My heart bleeds for those (not).

Lord Violent	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:25:00 - [281] So other more important points aside. You give T2 ships a lower HP increase realizing that their inherent resistances would make them overpowered. Stop to think about all ships that get a bonus to resistances ie ferrox, prophecy. these ships get a huge buff from this hp increase where as ships like the cyclone and brutix with active tanking bonuses become imediately sub par. The HP changes are unecesary, of all the problems in eve HP is not one of them (Capitals excluded). These changes cause all manner of problems and inbalances and this should definately not be rushed into kali 1 if it ever comes in at all.
Ysolde Xen Minmatar Liberal Trading Co Electus Matari	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:32:00 - [282] (having trouble posting replies) I do have to say that I am rather uneasy about another HP increase all round. No-one likes being insta-popped but unfortunately whenn one weapon class is designed to do that and pretty much suck at all else (Artillery) then I wonder how their increase in uselessness is going to be compensated for. ----- It's not a crap ship, you're just flying it all wrong.
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:33:00 - [283] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Oh sure, it sucks if you're a stabbed-up lowsec sniper pirate. My heart bleeds for those (not). read post. i wroted that wcs are "ok" first read then post - so hard on forums today Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:35:00 - [284] Originally by: Ysolde Xen (having trouble posting replies) I do have to say that I am rather uneasy about another HP increase all round. No-one likes being insta-popped but unfortunately whenn one weapon class is designed to do that and pretty much suck at all else (Artillery) then I wonder how their increase in uselessness is going to be compensated for. Is this really true, though? I've been given to understand that artillery is actually pretty close to railgun DPS (with the added bonus of being somewhat able to choose your damage type, which you cannot do with railguns). Is artillery actually useless work anything but alpha-strike, or is it another one of those persistent myths?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:37:00 - [285] Originally by: MECTO Originally by: Alex Harumichi Oh sure, it sucks if you're a stabbed-up lowsec sniper pirate. My heart bleeds for those (not). read post. i wroted that wcs are "ok" first read then post - so hard on forums today Ah, I wasn't aiming that comment at you, I was just commenting that the typical stabbed-to-the-hilt sniper pirate is the one being hit hardest by this change (wcs penalty, more ship hp = less chance of killing targets before they make it to gate/warp).
Khabok Dark Lancers	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:38:00 - [286] Edited by: Khabok on 20/10/2006 13:39:20 Personally, I think all of these changes will mean a major improvement for the game, as far as PvP goes. 1) The nerfing of WCS means that certain ships won't be able to be 'gank and run' ships anymore. Now, engaging in combat pretty much guarantees that you'll be scrambled yourself, as well. How many people will have ot learn how to effectively fight instead of relying on the 15 second gank? 2) To all the people whining about the stealth nerf to cap (the battles will take longer, so they'll run out of cap before it's over): You need to learn how to adapt to the new situation. There isn't a single ship out there that can't be fitted to run permanently. So instead of fitting three Magnetic Field Stab IIs and going for the insta-gank, maybe fit a couple of Cap Power Relays and have your cap last long enough to get the kill. 3) PErsonally, I feel that the extenders and plates shouldn't get the same 50% across the board bonus to HPs. The example has been given a few times already, but it bears repeating: Look at what happens to your typical cruiser with a 1600mm plate NOW... now imaging that after a 50% increase to the plates HPs. That is unbalanced. Keeping the extenders and plates the same will balance them more favorably with resistance modifiers, especially with the additional base HPs for the ships themselves. It will no longer be a matter of "must have 1600mm or I lose". Now, it will be more of a personal choice... "Can I fit the resistance modules or that extender/plate? What will be better for my own personal playstyle and fitting?" While I admire some of you guys for pointing out the problems that you see, and offering solutions and suggestions to a thread that the devs are most likely keeping an eye on, the rest of you that are saying "omg nerfage CCP suck!" need to tone it down a notch, think through some of your responses, and maybe even wait to play the changes before you post. I for one am looking forward to the changes. I think they're going to make the game at least 25% to 50% better <wink>. Khabok There are only four things in life.The first one is Love: Cherish that one, and keep it safe, for the other three are Fear, Hatred, and Sorrow.
Flabida jaba	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:41:00 - [287] I am almost certain the EvE online is not a democracy especially when it comes to things like ship and modual changes! However I will cast my vote anyway for the sake of posterity. 50% HP boost will most certainly change the face of eve as we know it. Affecting combat of all types across the board in ways that must be hard to comprehend in fullness even by those that propose the changes. It is said that the desired outcome is to prolong combat engaugement time..... but it is not hard to see that the side effects of this move will be more numerous and far reaching than the scope of the original intent! by even the most noobish of the noob Futhermore, the question must be asked what is the benifit/reason for desiring longer combat times??? If i am to be gunned down by a ruthless pirate while i fly my WCS's mining barge..which can now only target rocks at 5kms..please let it be quick...so i can get back to never being able to kill anything with tech 1 wepons. In conclusion I agree that a HP boost is BAD idea...unless it can be explained more substantially why it has been proposed
Ysolde Xen Minmatar Liberal Trading Co Electus Matari	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:43:00 - [288] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 20/10/2006 13:37:17 Originally by: Ysolde Xen (having trouble posting replies) I do have to say that I am rather uneasy about another HP increase all round. No-one likes being insta-popped but unfortunately whenn one weapon class is designed to do that and pretty much suck at all else (Artillery) then I wonder how their increase in uselessness is going to be compensated for. Is this really true, though? I've been given to understand that artillery is actually pretty close to railgun DPS (with the added bonus of being somewhat able to choose your damage type, which you cannot do with railguns). Is artillery actually useless for anything but alpha-strike, or is it another one of those persistent myths? As a fan of artillery, I can only really find 1 or 2 ship/config situations that make artillery worth using over ACs. The rest of the time the DPS is poor - I don't mind a low DPS because of a high alpha but when the alpha is even further reduced in effectiveness (unless there's 15 of you and someone's calling primary) it becomes even more, err, specialised. Right now trying to use Artillery in anything but a fleet support role is an exercise in consciously choosing a worse setup for no real reason. I end up using it out of stubbornness and on those few ships in those few situations where it's still a worthwhile choice. Mostly ACs are the no-brainer choice. On the other hand using artillery in fleet support in numbers is pretty effective. Well, if you're flying a Tempest at least. ----- It's not a crap ship, you're just flying it all wrong.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:43:00 - [289] "Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1" Someone has considered the effect of this in level 4 missions, where you are warp scrambled by the enemyes? It will mean you have longer locking time, and less range against a good number of scrambling enemyes, and a much reduced chance to retreat. If the cost of a lvl 4 combat mission is a 10% chance of losing a BS what must be the reward to balance that? Or you will change all the missions so you warp at long range from the enemyes and not right on them?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:48:00 - [290] I'll just insert a quote from another thread here: Originally by: dalman So what exactly is your 'alphastrike problem'? That you can't one-volley an industrial from 150km range with the HP boost? Cause for sure you must know the (1400)tempest does almost exactly the same dps as a (425)megathron, without using any cap?

Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:49:00 - [291] Originally by: Tuxford I've been replying to the forums today. I'm just gonna list some of the smaller tweaks and changes here. Ships Powergrid of Sacrilege, Deimos and Muninn increased to 1100MW, 950MW and 1100MW respectively CPU of Sacrilege and Deimos increased to 350tf for both ships CPU of Anathema, Helios and Cheetah increased to 280tf, 290tf and 275tf respectively bonus of covert ops ships changed so it reduces cpu need of covert ops cloaking device from 98% to 100% Agility of battlecruisers and command ships boosted by 20% Nighthawk's explosion velocity changed to launcher rate of fire bonus Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors I didn't really check it but I'll probably increase shield recharge rate by about 50% as well just to be on the safe side Modules Inertia stabilizers give decrease in mass as well as agility and give a penalty to signature radius Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 Super weapon damage increased by 50% as well Shield extenders and plates increased by 50% ECM changes - I'm blogging about that one, hopefully comes later today I think this all of the stuff that is not big enought to deserve its own post. Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later. Here my 2 cents worth. On reading through this & most of the replies. In my opinion most of these changes target the right problems, but the numbers & % changes being proposed sound like the Dev team were bored & just shouted numbers out loud. Frankly it reads like Caldari get another boost to their already overinflated omfgiwin status. Minmatar get nerfed & Amarr & Gallente once again sit in the middle not sure what theyre meant to think. & the WCS thing...although a nerf is great from a PvP point of view, its penelties make no sense from a rp perspective (y would your ships targeting computers be affected?). It also seems a rather universal nerf for something that (ppl claim) only really needed changing when snipers used them to run away. Course it solves that problem, but now NPC hunter's& mission runner's only real defense against hostiles has also been removed. Highsec becomes even more appealing for all but the PvPer in me...& he rarely shows his face.
Greyshadow Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:51:00 - [292] Should be interesting to see the outcome of this, 50% in HP is a large jump I agree! and it could well unbalance everything but 'seeing is believing' and until the changes are in place then is the real time to test it. Forum worrying is just a way of making people panic, and panicing is a bad thing as people make silly decision based on that they believe. I'm not saying there aren't some valid points out there but worry about it when we are able to test it and really discover the errors that truely will help balance it (if there is a balance problem that is) "We need you!"
Ysolde Xen Minmatar Liberal Trading Co Electus Matari	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:05:00 - [293] Originally by: Alex Harumichi I'll just insert a quote from another thread here: Originally by: dalman So what exactly is your 'alphastrike problem'? That you can't one-volley an industrial from 150km range with the HP boost? Cause for sure you must know the (1400)tempest does almost exactly the same dps as a (425)megathron, without using any cap? Why is it people assume that we only have 1 ship that is capable of using artillery (the Tempest) and trot it out at every available opportunity as if it's the only ship in the entire minmatar fleet? Oh, that'll be because it's the only one that can make artillery work on an effective and competing scale. Some love for the smaller ships attempting to try and use the artillery weapon system would be nice, or do us smaller ship pilots not count or something? ----- It's not a crap ship, you're just flying it all wrong.
Flabida jaba	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:10:00 - [294] Edited by: Flabida jaba on 20/10/2006 14:12:15 Edited by: Flabida jaba on 20/10/2006 14:10:49 The wsc nerf has also rendered ecm jammer's the best defence against scramblers pending their nerf...and will prevent low sec mining en masse just speculation of course will there be a corsponding nerf to scramblers? A mod specificly designed to prevent ships running away Vs a mod designed to let ships run away
Verone Veto.	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:14:00 - [295] Every change coming is fantastic... can't wait BACKSTORY AND FAN FICTION
Capt Harlock Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:17:00 - [296] Burn Eden with no stabs
MurderCityDevil HariKari And Combines	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:25:00 - [297] The need for longer battles just seems in place for Eve. In a battle, I could see ships pounding away at each other for a long time. IT doesn't seem right that a fleet of battleships Vs battleships slugging it out should only last 15 seconds. I am of the school of thought where the size and bulk of battleships and capital ships should prolong battles and increase the epic quality of the struggle between two forces, not reduce it to a split second melee. Old school series like StarBlazers had a wonderful mix of suspense and epic battles. One thing they did have to shorten battles was the Wave-Motion Cannon(Doomsday Weapon) and I think a balance for Eve's battles is in order. Maybe a "luck shot" could destroy a ship in one shot, or cripple it, but the majority of battles need to be longer.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:26:00 - [298] Originally by: Ranger 1 The abuse of Stabs is primarily done by extreme range snipers and extreme speed ships like the stababond. Occasionally by the BE Raven types. All of these types can still use the stabs, but they will have to rethink how they are going to do it. The possibility of retaliation is higher with this nerf. Few things are more frustrating to an experienced PVP oriented player than to be unable to do anything other than be a sniper target. Tacklers can't close and stop them, cloaked vessels can't close the distance fast enough to be any good as the sniper spots are all over the place. Standard game mechanics begin to break down. No one should be untouchable and still lethal. The level of risk goes up for those using them for these purposes. Most importantly, the person using them for travel purposes is not affected. Carebears may rejoice. I don't think you understand the nature of the nerf. Not a bit. Now to travel you need 2 stabs to have a chance with gatecampers. So far if you were attaccked by a single pirate while moving a comabt ship you had the chance to figth (with 2 less low slots) or run. Now for the time you can lock the target you will be in the hull. So even more the only choice is to run (increase crying of vile carebeear). Naturally you will find the nice gankers in group of 3 or more and get 3-6 poit disrupters on you. Again you have 0 chance to lock and kill even one of them before being destruct. At this point really if I am moving an industrial is best. It will cost less to replace. Or maybe I should get 2 friend and start to gank. BTW: a standar sniper ganker will have his bookmarked sniping point and be pre aligned. So the effect on him is nihil.
Leshrac Shepherd Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:29:00 - [299] Originally by: Stephar Considering that rails use more cap than blasters, you would think that Caldari would be worried too. the average caldari pilot (and that is almost the same as saying the average eve player) has no clue on what a "Railgun" is or how it works, so it is completely normal that they aren't worried.
BABARR	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:39:00 - [300] WCS nerf, at least. But i think whith the boost of HP and plate/shield extander, you should have a look on the agro timer on gate and station. It's too easy to attack and tanking during 1min and dock/take the gate.

Deriger	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:41:00 - [301] EVE is becoming WOW in space.
Ginger Magician Minmatar OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:46:00 - [302] Well interesting. Have you given a single thought to a whole class of profession called piracy? If u cant fit stabs when sniping then sniping is no more and the increase in hps of ships just means that ships will be unkillable anyway. These changes seem to indicate only gank squads can ever possibly win in combat in future and the death of solo pvp. I suggest u give these changes some more thought because as it stands u have just ruined the gameplay of at least 10000 subscribers.
franny Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:47:00 - [303] Originally by: MECTO Originally by: franny so with the buff, I just tank(what the domi does anyway), and nos them till they run out of cap, stick my drones on em, then hit go afk for 10 minutes?, come back to see my killmail.... sounds like fun u came back and u end up with losemail.... cause there's 5 more friends r feeding on your corpse - they have enought time to fly throu' many systems or refit at station . BLOBSKI FTW no no, cause in that same 20 minutes, half the region shows up, so actually we both end up with nothing as the node crashes
DaemonBarber	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:47:00 - [304] Does the HP increase affect POS Control Towers? Does the HP increase affect drone HP?
The Eso	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:49:00 - [305] *Agility of battlecruisers and command ships boosted by 20% "It gets worse with agility though, in EVE its better to have less of it" So is this a nerf to these ships, or will they now be more agile?
Cadiz Caldari No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:52:00 - [306] Instead of increasing ship HP across the board, why not try increasing capacitor size instead (although maybe more to the tune of +25%)? It'd make for stronger active tanking, prove an indirect nerf to nos, and it wouldn't cause all sorts of wierd balance issues in regards to ammo size, reloading, uber-Jagabonds, artillery alpha strike, so on and so forth. ------ Quartermaster, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence."
tyrol E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:55:00 - [307] Originally by: Ginger Magician Well interesting. Have you given a single thought to a whole class of profession called piracy? If u cant fit stabs when sniping then sniping is no more and the increase in hps of ships just means that ships will be unkillable anyway. These changes seem to indicate only gank squads can ever possibly win in combat in future and the death of solo pvp. I suggest u give these changes some more thought because as it stands u have just ruined the gameplay of at least 10000 subscribers. yes, we should all be allowed to sit 200k away from people and be able to shoot them with no fear of retaliation, and should those people dare try to attack us we should be able to run without fear of the dreaded scram. Then again, you could also grow some balls and fit damage mods to counter the hp increase instead of a full rack of stabs.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:57:00 - [308] Originally by: franny Originally by: MECTO Originally by: franny so with the buff, I just tank(what the domi does anyway), and nos them till they run out of cap, stick my drones on em, then hit go afk for 10 minutes?, come back to see my killmail.... sounds like fun u came back and u end up with losemail.... cause there's 5 more friends r feeding on your corpse - they have enought time to fly throu' many systems or refit at station . BLOBSKI FTW no no, cause in that same 20 minutes, half the region shows up, so actually we both end up with nothing as the node crashes The amount of whining, baseless "sky is falling!" panic, and general cluelessness in this and other threads is astounding. If these people are to be believed: - Artillery is asolutely useless for anything other than alpha-strike one-shot kills. Funny that, since artillery does about the same damage as railguns, can switch damage types, and uses no cap -- you'd think railguns would be even more useless by this logic. - Sniping is impossible without stabs. Because, you know, without stabs you might even, gasp, die sometimes. The horror. - The stab nerf makes low-sec travel impossible (even though it only hits combat ships). etc etc yadda yadda. For your particular flavor of whine: ok, so with +50% target hitpoints, your Dom's drones will now take 10-20 minutes for you to kill a target? Wow. So that means right now it takes you about 6.5 - 13+ minutes to kill a target with same drones. You need to seriously work on your drone skills. Or reduce the hyperbole.
Tyrone Hambone	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:08:00 - [309] Can someone please provide a link to whatever all the references to Khanid MKII is all about? Search seems to lead me to nothing but stories about some King Khanid or something like that.
Ginger Magician Minmatar OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:09:00 - [310] Edited by: Ginger Magician on 20/10/2006 15:13:08 Edited by: Ginger Magician on 20/10/2006 15:12:38 Edited by: Ginger Magician on 20/10/2006 15:11:44 Originally by: tyrol Originally by: Ginger Magician Well interesting. Have you given a single thought to a whole class of profession called piracy? If u cant fit stabs when sniping then sniping is no more and the increase in hps of ships just means that ships will be unkillable anyway. These changes seem to indicate only gank squads can ever possibly win in combat in future and the death of solo pvp. I suggest u give these changes some more thought because as it stands u have just ruined the gameplay of at least 10000 subscribers. yes, we should all be allowed to sit 200k away from people and be able to shoot them with no fear of retaliation, and should those people dare try to attack us we should be able to run without fear of the dreaded scram. Then again, you could also grow some balls and fit damage mods to counter the hp increase instead of a full rack of stabs. U know nothing.The damage I do with 425 rails cannot be improved.As it stands on TQ atm I kill more than any other sniper cause I have better skills and I am totally maxed in gallente weapons.Even this being the case with the tranverse porblem and plates problems it is very hard to kill certain classes of ship e.g. virutally impossible to kill tech 2 ships and only bs who sit still can be sniped solo.With a 50% increase in ship hitpoints we will have the situation we had prior to the introduction of tech 2 ammos where sniping was basically finished. People will still use WCS whether they are nerfed or not as well.All this means that those ships fitting wcs will simply have no possibility to pvp while using them and the vast majority of carebear types will simply not engage in pvp and run even more than they do now. These changes will vastly reduce the amount of ships destroyed on TQ as well and lead to massive reductions in demand for minerals and ship mods as was the case before. Let's ask what is the benefit of these changes? Apart from making the life easier of a few gank squads I cant see any benefit.And given that ganking is already so easy why make it more so. If u dont run in a 50 man gang then dont bother anymore is my advice.

Serj Darek Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:21:00 - [311] As a side note, you wonder why Minmatars get angry about stuff like this? Consider the Money and time I have invested in EVE? I have had 2 accounts since December 2003, which means I have paid roughly $13 USD per account per month. So $26 * 34 months = 884 USD. So why would I be dissapointed and frustrated as a Minmatar specialized player? Gee I don't know. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes It contains my ingame name and corp ticker - Serj
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:28:00 - [312] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 20/10/2006 15:28:26 Originally by: Serj Darek As a side note, you wonder why Minmatars get angry about stuff like this? Consider the Money and time I have invested in EVE? I have had 2 accounts since December 2003, which means I have paid roughly $13 USD per account per month. So $26 * 34 months = 884 USD. So why would I be dissapointed and frustrated as a Minmatar specialized player? Gee I don't know. Oh, right. You, unlike everyone else in the game, have actually paid money to play it. And on two accounts, no less. Yes, I suppose that does give you the unique right to be angry at random stuff as a kneejerk reaction. "Wonder why Gallente get angy about stuff like this? Consider all the money I have invested in beer since 2003... and now they nerf my railguns! Rabble rabble rabble!" I'm starting to become convinced that no matter what changes are ever made to the game, someone will scream "it's a Minmatar nerf!" from the sidelines. I guess it's a reflex, or something. This is in no way or form a "minmatar nerf" -- unless by "minmatar nerf" you actually mean "minmatar, gallente, amarr and railgun-using caldari nerf". The +50% hp thing hits pretty much all gun users; it could be argued that it doesn't even hit Minmatar all that hard since their weapons don't use cap. Ever look at the cap use of Gallente and Amarr weapons? Sigh.
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:34:00 - [313] Edited by: Kamikaaazi on 20/10/2006 15:35:14 after all, caldari still has the lowest dps weapons. With t2 weapons we still cant fit any tank at all. You dont see me crying here, do you? oh, and with ecm nerf coming ravens will loose that option too.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:39:00 - [314] Originally by: Tuxford Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 So all those pirates who like to gank mission runners get their wish. Fitting even a single warp core scrambler "just in case" is now totally out of bounds for a level 4 mission runner. It's too much of a penalty. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
tyrol E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:46:00 - [315] Originally by: Ginger Magician Edited by: Ginger Magician on 20/10/2006 15:13:08 Edited by: Ginger Magician on 20/10/2006 15:12:38 Edited by: Ginger Magician on 20/10/2006 15:11:44 Originally by: tyrol Originally by: Ginger Magician Well interesting. Have you given a single thought to a whole class of profession called piracy? If u cant fit stabs when sniping then sniping is no more and the increase in hps of ships just means that ships will be unkillable anyway. These changes seem to indicate only gank squads can ever possibly win in combat in future and the death of solo pvp. I suggest u give these changes some more thought because as it stands u have just ruined the gameplay of at least 10000 subscribers. yes, we should all be allowed to sit 200k away from people and be able to shoot them with no fear of retaliation, and should those people dare try to attack us we should be able to run without fear of the dreaded scram. Then again, you could also grow some balls and fit damage mods to counter the hp increase instead of a full rack of stabs. U know nothing.The damage I do with 425 rails cannot be improved.As it stands on TQ atm I kill more than any other sniper cause I have better skills and I am totally maxed in gallente weapons.Even this being the case with the tranverse porblem and plates problems it is very hard to kill certain classes of ship e.g. virutally impossible to kill tech 2 ships and only bs who sit still can be sniped solo.With a 50% increase in ship hitpoints we will have the situation we had prior to the introduction of tech 2 ammos where sniping was basically finished. People will still use WCS whether they are nerfed or not as well.All this means that those ships fitting wcs will simply have no possibility to pvp while using them and the vast majority of carebear types will simply not engage in pvp and run even more than they do now. These changes will vastly reduce the amount of ships destroyed on TQ as well and lead to massive reductions in demand for minerals and ship mods as was the case before. Let's ask what is the benefit of these changes? Apart from making the life easier of a few gank squads I cant see any benefit.And given that ganking is already so easy why make it more so. If u dont run in a 50 man gang then dont bother anymore is my advice. i must have missed the blog where it says wcs increase your sniping abilities. why don't you fit a close range setup, i heard rumour blasters did more damage than 425s. Oh wait, that will mean they will be in range to shoot back, sorry, forgive me, how could i suggest such a foolish thing
Zarrika Khan Caldari No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:52:00 - [316] Originally by: Snikkt Why were Stabs nerfed? They're the only defense against warp scramblers. ECM gets ECCM's. We're not seeing ECCM's with a bucket full of nerf. Plus, the Stab nerf makes no sense. (fluff wise) Smoothing out the fluxuations in a warp core,for some reason, completely rapes your targeting and sensor systems? In a way this makes sense. Just thinking about it (fluff wise) a 'propulsion' system module like WCS should effect other area's of propulsion or navigation at the very best. So agility could be seriously lowered, taking longer to align... so even if you are stabbed longer align time could be bad. Increase powergrid need for WCS. Just a few thoughts.
Tammarr	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:55:00 - [317] To big a wcs nerf realy. This isnt some strange world of death or dishonor. And well I see changes that will help big alliances get bigger I also predict its time to start skilling for a miner because 0.0 in alliance space will be dead of small gangs going out to hit & run with thoose nerfs and not tought through changes, meaning I can happily mine away for hours... glancing at local sometimes. And ofc I can always stab it up since roids... well, I realy dont need o long range or locktime for thoose huge things =) If thoose changes to hp have come with other changes that makes combat different, targeting subsystems etc then there would be a reason for it. Right now, you'll bring more ships to get the job done. What is it? 10% of eve thats in 0.0? I prefer small/med sized gangs not huge assed blobs. I prefer to hit & run, I might not get a kill since I might need to run before I finish the job since my tank aint holding up because I have wcs fitted. Rethink thoose changes. The changes to individual ships are great however... for the current system.
Sister 9 Phung Hoang Social Club	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:05:00 - [318] pretty suprised by the strength of the WCS nerf, personally i think being able to fit 1 or 2 WCS has not really been a serious problem. the problem is people doing travel setups in indies and battleships with all their lows full of them. this will remain the same after kali. hit and run opererations will be less and less viable now, along with the hitpoint increase. when you outnumbered it can often, but not always, be pretty prudish to have a WCS or two fitted to escape, if the gank squad comes
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:07:00 - [319] After tech II ships came in after tech II turrets and launchers I was hoping the battles in PVP would be longer. Well they where not. The ganking players figured that they could warp in 150km from a target pop it and be done with it. If an inty got to them they could warp off they had no tank and did not think they would ever bescrambled cause of the WCS. Welcome to how EVE is suppose to be. The ammo changes that come will make tech II ammo the item to have. You will do awesome damage with tech II ammo probally 25% better than regular and probally be 50% smaller. The pentalities where place holders. Since the HP changes need to be in first for the tech II ammo to be fair. Everything that is being done for the EVE tux is right on. I perfer large roaming squads. I see the need to have Logistic ships, Transport ships, Recon ships and all the other ships in a fleet now. There wont be three ships in a 20 man gang. Blobs will be a unit of ships that shield transfer and ammo depot and soo forth with the ability to take out a transport and the fleet retreats cause they run out of ammo. Energy transfer and target painting for the win. Thanks tux make the game more group oriented and make the logistics field important.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:08:00 - [320] Oh no arty gets nerfed in kali by longer fights? Im an amarr and i have put most of my skills into lasers. The other day i switched my guns to arty instead and what happend? With minimal skills i was doing 70s damage instead of 40s. I dont get ppl saying "now arty will be crap compared to other weapons". Yeah right. Look at lasers pal.

Tactician Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:14:00 - [321] Originally by: Sister 9 pretty suprised by the strength of the WCS nerf, personally i think being able to fit 1 or 2 WCS has not really been a serious problem. the problem is people doing travel setups in indies and battleships with all their lows full of them. this will remain the same after kali. hit and run opererations will be less and less viable now, along with the hitpoint increase. when you outnumbered it can often, but not always, be pretty prudish to have a WCS or two fitted to escape, if the gank squad comes No one really cares about travel setups, they are and should be a part of the game, what annoys is the ability to fit WCS to pvp setups with basically no penalty (except the loss of low slots) and the ease of fitting. This change will help solve that problem without totally nerfing wcs. You can still fit them for pvp as well... if your willing to suffer the consequences of lower lock range and crappy lock time. This is a good change IMO. Like others I am concerned about yet another accross the board hp increase. This will be the second time such a change has been made WITHOUT ANY CHANGE TO CAPACITORS. I would suggest a smaller boost to overall hitpoints with a similar boost in capacitor. This would: A) Prevent sniping setups being totally nerfed (not that I use them but they have a place in game and tux already indicated some significant changes to gun ranges for the future which will address this anyway). B) Prevent active tanking being totally nerfed to hell. A flat HP increase clearly favours passive tanking setups, whichever way you look at it. Tact
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:15:00 - [322] Edited by: Tovarishch on 20/10/2006 17:15:31 I'm not sure that it's been mentioned... as I can't tolerate digging through most of the trash in this thread to figure it out... However, the ratios of the shield hitpoint increase and the ratios of shield recharge rate need to be identical in order for passive shield tanks to remain the same as they are now. For example... if t2 ships receive a 25% shield hitpoint increase then the recharge ratio needs to increase by 25%. 50% on both ratios for t1 ships. As for the rest of the new changes - the WCS change is greatly welcome. The hit point changes.... we'll see. Despite everyone whining that they are going to quit... I think it's nearly impossible to foresee precisely how it's going to effect gameplay. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:32:00 - [323] I'm gone like 2 months, leveling stuff before BC comes and now after I canceled my chars, you come and tell me this?! FFS! You want me to reactive my chars.. admit it Unnerf Amarr!Ö "I read somewhere that Kali will be featuring turn-based combat to increase immersion." ¬ Waagaa Ktlehr
Drevik Valendar	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:37:00 - [324] Can someone please explain to this poor n00b who just happens to be flying a Cyclone at the moment why an increase in Agility for BCs is a bad thing?
Jason Hawke Caldari Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:46:00 - [325] I like the changes to the warp stabs... Basically you take an "I win" setup away from the lazy gate campers and actually involve a little bit of risk in what you do. If you get snuck up on, you are toast, That is cool. How fun is it to sit 200km away and oh, there is an Inty beside me, oh noes warp disruptors, and warp away? Now you have to be ready to run and gives more room to have tactics involved in killing the solo gate camps. Basically adding the usufulness and effectiveness of a sword in a world of artillery. Talking about it is going to make those guys easier to get away, I see nothing wrong with that. If you aren't able to tackle them, oh well, you didn't lose anything. Good changes... Although T2 ammo should be better, I think adding more armor is going to hurt the T1 ammo guys a lot more in the long run. But makes a benchmark to say "train T2 gunnery skills or you wont kill anyone" Right on!
Sir JoJo Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:49:00 - [326] so theres some good changes in this espcialy wcs. but i noticed that ppl started to ask about artys but yet u avoided that subject even though answering on other questions. so i ask again what about ARTILLERY Tux its a disgrace for Minmatar
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:52:00 - [327] Originally by: Sir JoJo so theres some good changes in this espcialy wcs. but i noticed that ppl started to ask about artys but yet u avoided that subject even though answering on other questions. so i ask again what about ARTILLERY Tux As I said hows arty more crippled then lasers? How about asking the question "Are ALL weapons fairly balanced?", instead of "oh no why they gonna cripple my arty press one button 200km pwn machine?"
Sir JoJo Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:59:00 - [328] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Sir JoJo so theres some good changes in this espcialy wcs. but i noticed that ppl started to ask about artys but yet u avoided that subject even though answering on other questions. so i ask again what about ARTILLERY Tux As I said hows arty more crippled then lasers? How about asking the question "Are ALL weapons fairly balanced?", instead of "oh no why they gonna cripple my arty press one button 200km pwn machine?" how much space do u use on amo??? ok thought so. its a disgrace for Minmatar
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 18:02:00 - [329] Originally by: Sir JoJo Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Sir JoJo so theres some good changes in this espcialy wcs. but i noticed that ppl started to ask about artys but yet u avoided that subject even though answering on other questions. so i ask again what about ARTILLERY Tux As I said hows arty more crippled then lasers? How about asking the question "Are ALL weapons fairly balanced?", instead of "oh no why they gonna cripple my arty press one button 200km pwn machine?" how much space do u use on amo??? ok thought so. You gotta be kidding me right? We are mainly talking about pvp here, so Im guessing you dont have problems brining enough ammo for 1-2 fights. Ammo is no big issue compared to the dmg and range of arty, so plz...
Kinsu Ryu	Posted - 2006.10.20 18:08:00 - [330] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Sir JoJo Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Sir JoJo so theres some good changes in this espcialy wcs. but i noticed that ppl started to ask about artys but yet u avoided that subject even though answering on other questions. so i ask again what about ARTILLERY Tux As I said hows arty more crippled then lasers? How about asking the question "Are ALL weapons fairly balanced?", instead of "oh no why they gonna cripple my arty press one button 200km pwn machine?" how much space do u use on amo??? ok thought so. You gotta be kidding me right? We are mainly talking about pvp here, so Im guessing you dont have problems brining enough ammo for 1-2 fights. Ammo is no big issue compared to the dmg and range of arty, so plz... no crap i wouldn't mind spending some isk on ammo anyways for more dmg.

Sir JoJo Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 18:10:00 - [331] well tbh i dont really think about laser and if they gonna suck as much as arty feel free to yell at tux.. and yes amo is a big isue for minmatar also in pvp and will be even bigger whit more hp its a disgrace for Minmatar
Josho Tsunetumo Caldari V for Vendetta	Posted - 2006.10.20 18:11:00 - [332] Take more ammo, care less for loot space
Sir JoJo Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 18:14:00 - [333] Originally by: Josho Tsunetumo Take more ammo, care less for loot space well thats how we do now ;) its a disgrace for Minmatar
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 18:14:00 - [334] So if the problem with warp core stabs was cowardly snipers, why not try this for size instead; 1. Halve range of all long range weapons 2. Give all ships a "sniper mode"...a button you press which doubles your range - but stops your engines 3. Entering and/or leaving sniper mode takes 60 seconds 4. WCS get put back to normal This introduces the REAL penalty that a sniper should pay...if he gets caught at close range, he's in trouble. It would give sniper-hunter teams a chance to kill snipers in the 60 second window before they came out of sniper mode. but of course, since the REAL reason behind the cries for a WCS nerf is to make it easier for pirates to gank carebears, this will never happen. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.10.20 18:15:00 - [335] I was joking when I wrote a few weeks ago that the Devs probably don't play the game anymore because of the lag. I'm not so sure now. :-/ Welcome to the new EVE where 1v1 fights are won by the guy with the most plates and no repper (no cap for it anyway), unless he's a minmatar, then he loses because his ACs run out of ammo...
Necronomicon Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.20 18:17:00 - [336] Yay for WCS nerf, bout time too :D Will it stack? -50 -50 -50 -50 -50 -50 -50 -50, hohoho, I know a few pilots who are in trouble :P This doesnt nerf ppl who dont want to pvp, as why would they be targetting anyway. Good nerf, righteous nerf. If you wanna fight, then fit to fight, if you wanna run, why bother turning up? Carlsberg dont make Eve Pilots, but if they did, i wouldnt be one of them.
Frools No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.20 18:18:00 - [337] Originally by: Josho Tsunetumo Take more ammo, care less for loot space omg make tachs easier to fit, i need those 2 rcu slots for cargo expanders!!
Mortuus Minmatar Oblivion's Gate	Posted - 2006.10.20 18:41:00 - [338] Ummm.... Mostly good changes, but I don't think this whole HP increase thing was thought through. If it is part of a bigger grand change to combat, then all said changes should be balanced together and released together. As it is, my AC ships barely have enough ammo to chew through a couple well tanked enemies. Post change, you can just forget it. Arty will just be worthless unless I get 10 friends to come shoot someone with me. No real change to fleet combat, and it just gimps the hell out of small gang fights. I'm really not sure what the point of playing will be when these changes go through, ok my 30k Shield passive AC Sleipnir will have a lot of shields, at the same time, both myself and my enemy will run out of ammo well before either of us die. This makes it even worse for smaller ships. Frigates and cruisers rely on the ability to get in, kill a target, and get out before the blob arrives. In many cases thats hard enough to do already. I'm sorry, but I've fought static small group battles for 10-15 minutes before, its boring as all hell. Make fights more interesting, not take longer. Guess I need to look into missioning to make ISK, as 0.0 piracy becomes less viable. Then again, there are a bunch of other interesting titles coming out soon as well. ex-Occassus Republica <3
Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.10.20 18:54:00 - [339] Originally by: Grey Area but of course, since the REAL reason behind the cries for a WCS nerf is to make it easier for pirates to gank carebears, this will never happen. How? The long range snipers aligned with stabs wont even be able to lock the carebears now. Your point makes no sense.
Cmdr Sy Off Balance Sheet Entity	Posted - 2006.10.20 18:58:00 - [340] YES. WCS - nerfed. Now the low sec belt ratters will have to think long and hard about their setups. I hope the penalty stacks! Travel option only, it seems. Ship, plate and extender hp increases - thank you! Tanking continues as a viable option, and Gallentean pilots everywhere love you. Battlecruiser agility - it's about time, I just hope 20% is enough. ECM - I look forward to your thoughts. Ideally, one module will do nothing.

Herman Galo	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:06:00 - [341] Originally by: Tuxford Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 I'm not thrilled about using targeting range as the specific nerf. That's going to mean that you can no longer mount wcs on barges. A 50% targeting penalty would mean 11 km lock range for 1 wcs, and 5.5km lock range for 2 wcs. Which sort of kills the reach of the strip miners. Any chance of making it a ROF nerf instead? Or increase the barge lock range to 88km to compensate? --HG
rgreat Gallente OEG	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:07:00 - [342] Who whine louder contest. Thats what i see here... ;) Good changes overall.
Kolhell Minmatar CAD Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:20:00 - [343] Originally by: Kinsu Ryu Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Sir JoJo Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Sir JoJo so theres some good changes in this espcialy wcs. but i noticed that ppl started to ask about artys but yet u avoided that subject even though answering on other questions. so i ask again what about ARTILLERY Tux As I said hows arty more crippled then lasers? How about asking the question "Are ALL weapons fairly balanced?", instead of "oh no why they gonna cripple my arty press one button 200km pwn machine?" how much space do u use on amo??? ok thought so. You gotta be kidding me right? We are mainly talking about pvp here, so Im guessing you dont have problems brining enough ammo for 1-2 fights. Ammo is no big issue compared to the dmg and range of arty, so plz... no crap i wouldn't mind spending some isk on ammo anyways for more dmg. i fail to see how lasers are any less capable of shooting 200km than arti. you have a 100-page thread to discuss lasers in, please keep this thread on topic. so seriously though... why another huge alpha nerf? can you slow arti ROF or something for us to balance this out? ------------------------- bury the hatchet
Trev Kachanov Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:22:00 - [344] For the person that compared this change to the NGE , it's not... more like the crafting nerf that everyone hated and threw back. btw I love everything you said Tux except for the 50% bonus to hp. but i love the bonus to extenders and plates, makes em more of a good idea to fit =)
Katabrok First Caldari Asguard Security Service Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:27:00 - [345] Some things I would like to see: 1 more low slot on the cormorant. I cant fit 7 x 150 railguns on it, and I think that it should be possible. Some more PG on the cormorant and the brutix. Why cant we have sufficient pg on a ship to fit all of its high slots with the highest damage weapon? The brutix is almost the size of a battleship, but has the pg of a big cruiser. So big a ship should have space for bigger reactors, right? Ps.: I'm talking about the brutix because im using it lately, but the same applies to the other bc's. Katabrok, the space barbarian. I want the The Correct DreadÖ!!!!
Voculus Steel Battalion	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:35:00 - [346] Ugh. Just today, I bought my first ever set of T2 large artillery. All those months of training, only to have them rendered obselete, come Kali.
ewqilibrium	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:56:00 - [347] GO GO GO GO GO GO FOR WCS!!!!!! MORE PENALITIS PLEASEEEEEEEEE!!!
1Of9 Artificial Horizons YouWhat	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:57:00 - [348] ffs .. can u people STOP wining about WCS?? WCS are nerfed allready !! we have warp jammers +2 , warp bubbles and a crap lots of stuff to stop cold a ship, and we ONLY have WCS's that dont even work in bubbles .. so PLZ stop wining .. if ANYTHING, wcs's T2 should be released and work for bubbles !!!
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:09:00 - [349] Edited by: Tasty Burger on 20/10/2006 20:10:12 Originally by: Mortuus Ummm.... Mostly good changes, but I don't think this whole HP increase thing was thought through. If it is part of a bigger grand change to combat, then all said changes should be balanced together and released together. As it is, my AC ships barely have enough ammo to chew through a couple well tanked enemies. Post change, you can just forget it. Arty will just be worthless unless I get 10 friends to come shoot someone with me. No real change to fleet combat, and it just gimps the hell out of small gang fights. I'm really not sure what the point of playing will be when these changes go through, ok my 30k Shield passive AC Sleipnir will have a lot of shields, at the same time, both myself and my enemy will run out of ammo well before either of us die. This makes it even worse for smaller ships. Frigates and cruisers rely on the ability to get in, kill a target, and get out before the blob arrives. In many cases thats hard enough to do already. I'm sorry, but I've fought static small group battles for 10-15 minutes before, its boring as all hell. Make fights more interesting, not take longer. Guess I need to look into missioning to make ISK, as 0.0 piracy becomes less viable. Then again, there are a bunch of other interesting titles coming out soon as well. Mortuus, you've summed up my thoughts exactly. I wish I could say it better but I can't. Small battles are already long enough, and stacked against the people with lesser numbers even if they are better. Killing stuff already takes a while with low numbers. These changes mean it will be impossible to kill anything solo without getting ganked by 10 friends.
Spy4Hire	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:28:00 - [350] Uhm, yes... what about projectiles? 50% more shield with the current regeneration rates, plus 50% more armour (without a change to armour repair ammount) means that even a modest shield tank will be able to completely shut out minnie arty boats and even make it nigh on impossible for an autocannon boat to break through their tank. Yes, we minnies can vary our damage types accordingly, but when running a shield tank all resists are pretty much equalized by hardeners. Thus an XL booster, even T1, will be able to keep up with a heck of a lot... Tempest (whatever variant) against raven means that raven wins with these changes. So... some adjustments to us minnies, please.

Luumpy Uins	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:30:00 - [351] Why are you trying to make it easier for people to be pirates? Warp corp stabs should not have any penalties, they're critical when operation in times of war or in low sec systems.
Elrich Zann Minmatar Hidden Agenda	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:40:00 - [352] The majority of the changes are welcome and certainly take the game in the correct direction. However some have me troubled. The 50% hp increase has a profound effect on play balance and sadly will require many more changes down the road. Lasers and Artillery users are rightfully worried and their concerns are valid. Changes to WCS are well thought out. However the changes to Inertial stabilizers are not. I don't think I've ever seen a ship setup that uses them, and I certainly don't. These changes will do nothing to effect the current situation. I await to see the changes to ecm. While I don't like being jammed by a single multispec (and yes I do use them), I would hate to see Blackbirds, Scorps and Rooks turned into scrap. So I'll withhold judgement. The same comment applies to T2 ammo tweaks. Yes changes were needed, I'll look for them before I comment. I guess the game is headed towards tanking being more effective, and while this sounds better, I'm not so sure of the route we're taking.
Xune Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:43:00 - [353] Um... wel actualy i like the changes to the point with the hp boost. It wont realy make any difference in fleet combats but it would nerv solo pvp and small group action pretty much. Imagine 2 bs¦s atack each other at the gate.. now all the 1 one has to do is to disengage if he see¦s he is on the loosing time.. he waits and jump out.. imho = bad. 2 Point Alpha-strikes from mimatar are with those change pretty much pointless... nerfing a type of weapon even more... and thats in addition to the problems they suffer already. 3 Cap intense weapon¦s will be nerfed... so what did the blaster got a cap reduction for if now we need even more capa then ever before ? 50% more hitpoins means 50% more cap you need to spend to blow him up... um.. isent that kind of.... couter-productive ? please... you should realy re-consider those hp changes, they wont turn the pvp into what you would like... they are not even a step into the right direction.. they make evry kind of pvp beside the " suprime firepower" one pretty much pointless. Xune
dailyhazard Caldari Cosmic Fusion	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:48:00 - [354] Edited by: dailyhazard on 20/10/2006 20:52:12 Tbh, this change is redicolous. Pretty much buggers up hit and run the majority of the time. Oh well. Back to ganking than fighting heavily outnumbered. Boosting hp is pretty stupid, fights done need to be longer, if you wanna do 50v50 then fine by me. But this effects what i do too much. Stupid wcs changes are fine, just sort out the hp thing, killing stuff when it aggros will be 10x harder now, as it will just unagg and jump out as it taks 2x the time to kill it. If you think about it, are you making changes for everyone? or for people who just dont know how to fit there ship properley?
s1n1ster m1n1ster	Posted - 2006.10.20 21:01:00 - [355] Originally by: Awox Ah c'mon I just started getting used to having sub-par damage with Minmatar, now you go and give everyone more HP? I guess I wont be training Minmatar Cruiser lvl5 for a Muninn anymore. Oh, and a slight shield recharge rate penalty for WCS would be nice too. This really craps on stabbed up Stabbers/Vagabonds, Ferox/Nighthawk, etc. But some of that sounds pretty cool. Noob, minmatar have some of the best damage. Don't give us a bad name; someone should en-slave you for those comments!
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.10.20 21:33:00 - [356] Edited by: Epsilon 1 on 20/10/2006 21:35:15 Originally by: Tuxford Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums. for the ***** win. Originally by:** Tuxford Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums. PROFFESSIONAL Game Balancing.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 22:21:00 - [357] Originally by: Pestillence Originally by: Grey Area but of course, since the REAL reason behind the cries for a WCS nerf is to make it easier for pirates to gank carebears, this will never happen. How? The long range snipers aligned with stabs wont even be able to lock the carebears now. Your point makes no sense. So let me ezplain. I'm not talking about snipers, as they don't specifically target mission runners, they shoot anything that moves. I'm talking about specialised mission-ganking teams using a cov ops frigate to fin, and then warp to a mission in progress. First thing you know about it is when they appear in your mission. Since they are normally small teams the WCS was a good fitting option...and you still paid a "Penalty" for using it in that you don't get to finish the mission as you have to run away. But with this new nerf...meh...engaging the NPCs at half the range and taking twice as long to lock them is a recipe for disaster. Yet again, pirate whiners get their prayers answered. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.10.20 22:36:00 - [358] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Pestillence Originally by: Grey Area but of course, since the REAL reason behind the cries for a WCS nerf is to make it easier for pirates to gank carebears, this will never happen. How? The long range snipers aligned with stabs wont even be able to lock the carebears now. Your point makes no sense. So let me ezplain. I'm not talking about snipers, as they don't specifically target mission runners, they shoot anything that moves. I'm talking about specialised mission-ganking teams using a cov ops frigate to fin, and then warp to a mission in progress. First thing you know about it is when they appear in your mission. Since they are normally small teams the WCS was a good fitting option...and you still paid a "Penalty" for using it in that you don't get to finish the mission as you have to run away. But with this new nerf...meh...engaging the NPCs at half the range and taking twice as long to lock them is a recipe for disaster. Yet again, pirate whiners get their prayers answered. If you die in that scenario WCS no WCS, you deserve it. Oh and did i say that NPCing with stabs is as * as it gets. This fix has only PVP in mind. Originally by:** Tuxford Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums. PROFFESSIONAL Game Balancing.
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2006.10.20 23:00:00 - [359] Originally by: Cmdr Sy YES. Ship, plate and extender hp increases - thank you! Tanking continues as a viable option, and Gallentean pilots everywhere love you. Um, no we don't. HP means nothing when your sitting there unable to fire your guns because you ran out of cap due to the fact you can't break the enemies tank fast enough or something like that.
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.20 23:18:00 - [360] Originally by: Kristoffer Originally by: Cmdr Sy YES. Ship, plate and extender hp increases - thank you! Tanking continues as a viable option, and Gallentean pilots everywhere love you. Um, no we don't. HP means nothing when your sitting there unable to fire your guns because you ran out of cap due to the fact you can't break the enemies tank fast enough or something like that. Amarr is the only race that ever caps out in a fight, with the exception of fights involving NOS. There is so much unsubstantiated whinage about these changes its sickening. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Originally by: Reddari Now just be nice before I start to make life for the BOB devs (yes you have some) harder by exposing their player characters.

Cmdr Sy Off Balance Sheet Entity	Posted - 2006.10.20 23:24:00 - [361] Originally by: Kristoffer Um, no we don't. HP means nothing when your sitting there unable to fire your guns because you ran out of cap due to the fact you can't break the enemies tank fast enough or something like that. Nos can support guns while your armour plating is gradually ablated. All races are going to have to adjust a bit - Amarr to having their laser damage on EM-hardened armour tanks made even more pitiful, Minmatar to having their time taken to kill something extended, and Caldari to... erm... I'm sure there will be a lasting disadvantage to flying Caldari one day.
Rawr Cristina Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 23:35:00 - [362] its a sad day for geddon pilots (think: NOSDomi)
Derrios Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.20 23:42:00 - [363] Originally by: Traxio Nacho Edited by: Traxio Nacho on 19/10/2006 15:18:30 Quote: Yes, they can fit more stabs, but at what cost? The loss of essential low slots. Rubbish certain ships Vaga/Raven you can fit 2-3 stabs without losing anything but some damage output. Say on the vaga fitting 2-3 stabs you can still fit 2-3 gyro's. So quite honestly I don't care , down with stabs . If you want to pvp without the risk of losing something either pick your fights right or go play WoW. The fact is in Eve you can lose stuff it gives it that edge over other games. /signed ----------------------------------------------- Originally by: wierchas noobhunter hmm blowing ascn carebears in empire ? can i join ?
Derrios Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.20 23:43:00 - [364] Originally by: Traxio Nacho Edited by: Traxio Nacho on 19/10/2006 15:18:30 Quote: Yes, they can fit more stabs, but at what cost? The loss of essential low slots. Rubbish certain ships Vaga/Raven you can fit 2-3 stabs without losing anything but some damage output. Say on the vaga fitting 2-3 stabs you can still fit 2-3 gyro's. So quite honestly I don't care , down with stabs . If you want to pvp without the risk of losing something either pick your fights right or go play WoW. The fact is in Eve you can lose stuff it gives it that edge over other games. /signed ----------------------------------------------- Originally by: wierchas noobhunter hmm blowing ascn carebears in empire ? can i join ?
Dirtball Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 23:50:00 - [365] Woot!! I wonder what people excuse will be to dieing against me now.
Attiladehun Gallente Fire Mandrill Astrophobics	Posted - 2006.10.20 23:53:00 - [366] Those changes sounds cool, but can you at least look at some ships dmg output or tracking... I mean give minmatar some wub
Zarrika Khan Caldari No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.21 00:49:00 - [367] Who knows, maybe they will change the percentages for the skills that effect Rates of fire, cap useage for the guns that everyone is concerned about to make them still fun to use against the hardened improved HP issue. If the goal is to make the battles both large and small last a little longer for everyone to enjoy more (hopefully with less lag) then we all just need to wait and see it, test it. WCS needed a good counter balance to them that made them basically not a good idea to fit to a combat ship. ECM needs a simple math system that can be changed through skills to improve the odds of jamming. They could even introduce racial specific skills for each jammer to gain better bonuses.. and of course the counter is ECCM specific modules and skills for them as well. Maybe the skill idea is taking it too far but some balancing is needed because as the old arguement is: "we need to prevent the 1 month old player who can Jam with a multispec kill an much older player just because of chance."
Shugo Kazuma	Posted - 2006.10.21 02:56:00 - [368] Edited by: Shugo Kazuma on 21/10/2006 02:56:07 Originally by: Tyrone Hambone Can someone please provide a link to whatever all the references to Khanid MKII is all about? Search seems to lead me to nothing but stories about some King Khanid or something like that. Black Khanid missile spewing ships: Khanid MKII
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.10.21 03:06:00 - [369] Originally by: Leshrac Shepherd Originally by: Stephar Considering that rails use more cap than blasters, you would think that Caldari would be worried too. the average caldari pilot (and that is almost the same as saying the average eve player) has no clue on what a "Railgun" is or how it works, so it is completely normal that they aren't worried. don't forget blasters are easier to fit also
Zeroskills Bad Karma.	Posted - 2006.10.21 03:06:00 - [370] Originally by: Tuxford Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors I understand the motivation behind the 50% HP increase. While the other changes are all correctly classified as "tweaks" (scalpel work), I worry that the HP increase is surgery by samurai sword. While more HP will result in longer combat duration, this change will have trickle down impact on all aspects of PvP balance: Significant nerf to alpha-strike dependant weapons (especially artillery) Significant nerf to alpha-strike dependant ships (especially destroyers) Significant nerf to cap dependant weapons (especially Amarr) Significant nerf to heavy ammo use weapons (especially BS-size; especially autocannons) Significant nerf to cap booster-reliant builds Significant buff to nos/neuts (longer combat = increased likelihood of bleeding target dry) Significant nerf to small gang/hit-and-run operations (50%+ more time for the blob to counter) Moderate nerf to offensive PvP ops generally (logistical problems due to 50%+ increase in required ammo/cap charges) Moderate nerf to smaller ships (same lock time + longer combat = higher likelihood of getting nosed/webbed/worn down by light drones) Moderate nerf to active tanking (i.e. cap use > cap recharge) Moderate nerf to aggro timer (i.e. tank damage until one can jump/dock) Moderate nerf to warp bubbles (more time to slow boat to station/gate) Slight buff to close combat ships (less damage taken during approach as % of total HP) Upsets current balance between "gank" vs. "tank" Upsets current balance between weapon types No significant change to fleet combat (focused fire from 15 BSes will still one-volley the primary target; only change, post-patch, is that 33.3% more guns will successfully activate before the target pops) Very significant changes to small gang combat (specifically, changes that further amplify the advantage of superior numbers) I agree that, all else equal, longer combat is a good thing. However, this is hardly an "all else equal" scenario. My greatest fear is the next year will be spent trying to fix the unintended consequences of this 50% HP increase. In spite of all the "nerf/boost" posts on these forums, EVE's PvP is generally very well balanced. This unique balance is more important than a 50% increase in combat duration. Please do not let this change go live--it will break that balance. Regards, Zeroskills[SUN] www.guildofsun.com

Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.10.21 03:08:00 - [371] Originally by: Grey Area So if the problem with warp core stabs was cowardly snipers, why not try this for size instead; 1. Halve range of all long range weapons 2. Give all ships a "sniper mode"...a button you press which doubles your range - but stops your engines 3. Entering and/or leaving sniper mode takes 60 seconds 4. WCS get put back to normal This introduces the REAL penalty that a sniper should pay...if he gets caught at close range, he's in trouble. It would give sniper-hunter teams a chance to kill snipers in the 60 second window before they came out of sniper mode. but of course, since the REAL reason behind the cries for a WCS nerf is to make it easier for pirates to gank carebears, this will never happen. 60 seconds? this guarantees you WILL get caught.
ElweSingollo Starlancers	Posted - 2006.10.21 03:24:00 - [372] /me packs away my apoc and geddon and never flys Amarr battleships again in PVP tbh with the way things look and I had just got specced for large t2 energy weapons as well..... Some of the changes I like I worry to a great extent how the 50% HP will effect both Minnie ships (which were reasonably well off) and amarr ships which have been about 3rd of 4th class in regards to small gang pvp for a long while now. Mostly I am concerned about small group combat with our current war we had an engagement where we outnumbered the opponent and they still tried to attack to see if they could pick of smaller ships (kudos to them btw) with the changes I wouldn't have blamed them if they had just sat in the station and done sweet FA. Yes the combat will last longer but only until the opponent drops another couple of friends on you then you have instant yarrBq.
Boo Bee	Posted - 2006.10.21 03:52:00 - [373] Originally by: Tuxford Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 Bad ideya. Dont do it.
Zeroskills Bad Karma.	Posted - 2006.10.21 04:01:00 - [374] On the bright side, the 50% HP boost benefits high-sec hauler gankers by letting them get off 50% more vollies before being CONCORDOKKENed.
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.21 04:12:00 - [375] Outstanding post Zero! Because I said so...
Guurzak Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.21 04:18:00 - [376] Originally by: Zeroskills I worry that the HP increase is surgery by samurai sword.... My greatest fear is the next year will be spent trying to fix the unintended consequences of this 50% HP increase. In spite of all the "nerf/boost" posts on these forums, EVE's PvP is generally very well balanced. This unique balance is more important than a 50% increase in combat duration. Please do not let this change go live--it will break that balance. Very well-reasoned post. To your list, add a few more unintended consequences: -upsets current balance between POS defenses and attacking ships -upsets current balance regarding drones
Kyguard Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.21 05:04:00 - [377] Originally by: Attiladehun Those changes sounds cool, but can you at least look at some ships dmg output or tracking... I mean give minmatar some wub Lol, don't be a playa atti, remember your amarr roots, we need wub too === It's great being Amarr, aint it? - Elve Sorrow
Octavio Santillian Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.21 05:05:00 - [378] Originally by: Zeroskills Originally by: Tuxford Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors I understand the motivation behind the 50% HP increase. While the other changes are all correctly classified as "tweaks" (scalpel work), I worry that the HP increase is surgery by samurai sword. While more HP will result in longer combat duration, this change will have trickle down impact on all aspects of PvP balance: Significant nerf to alpha-strike dependant weapons (especially artillery) Significant nerf to alpha-strike dependant ships (especially destroyers) Significant nerf to cap dependant weapons (especially Amarr) Significant nerf to heavy ammo use weapons (especially BS-size; especially autocannons) Significant nerf to cap booster-reliant builds Significant buff to nos/neuts (longer combat = increased likelihood of bleeding target dry) Significant nerf to small gang/hit-and-run operations (50%+ more time for the blob to counter) Moderate nerf to offensive PvP ops generally (logistical problems due to 50%+ increase in required ammo/cap charges) Moderate nerf to smaller ships (same lock time + longer combat = higher likelihood of getting nosed/webbed/worn down by light drones) Moderate nerf to active tanking (i.e. cap use > cap recharge) Moderate nerf to aggro timer (i.e. tank damage until one can jump/dock) Moderate nerf to warp bubbles (more time to slow boat to station/gate) Slight buff to close combat ships (less damage taken during approach as % of total HP) Upsets current balance between "gank" vs. "tank" Upsets current balance between weapon types No significant change to fleet combat (focused fire from 15 BSes will still one-volley the primary target; only change, post-patch, is that 33.3% more guns will successfully activate before the target pops) Very significant changes to small gang combat (specifically, changes that further amplify the advantage of superior numbers) I agree that, all else equal, longer combat is a good thing. However, this is hardly an "all else equal" scenario. My greatest fear is the next year will be spent trying to fix the unintended consequences of this 50% HP increase. In spite of all the "nerf/boost" posts on these forums, EVE's PvP is generally very well balanced. This unique balance is more important than a 50% increase in combat duration. Please do not let this change go live--it will break that balance. Regards, Zeroskills[SUN] www.guildofsun.com Well Said. ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
Ogdru Jahad Amarr	Posted - 2006.10.21 06:47:00 - [379] All you pathetic whiners ! I have one magic word for you all... ADAPT! .
ManniXXX Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.21 07:04:00 - [380] Originally by: Ogdru Jahad All you pathetic whiners ! I have one magic word for you all... ADAPT! Yes, adapt and leave an entire weapon group out of use permanently. Wait. A entire ship race out of use.

Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.21 07:27:00 - [381] Edited by: Master OlavPancrazio on 21/10/2006 07:28:10 I really should of stopped reading this thread. It's making me retarded. Almost every for reply is the same, someone who generally interested about balance and wants to give the changes thought; or people who imagine themselves foresayers of the future with their impeccable ability to fortell how some balance changes will destroy the game and make 1000000000 people stop paying for the game because ships have more hit points. Get out of your little cave, take off the aluminum foil hat and stop saying THE END IS COMING. Jesus. It's a balance change.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.21 07:53:00 - [382] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 21/10/2006 07:53:51 Looking through combat logs, a typical 1 vs 1 fight (Yarrr! : Eeep! ) last 30-45 seconds from first shot to last shot, so now it will be 45-60 seconds... I still think T2 should'nt be boosted, if just the HP's of T1 ships were increased you may see T2 prices start to come down to more reasonable levels. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Ibys	Posted - 2006.10.21 08:02:00 - [383] Looks promising to me for all of it. Its been my experience that most fights happen in 1 minute or less - an average of 40% increase in the total hits of ships = 25 seconds difference max in an average fight which seems like a pretty modest change to me. perhaps worthy of some equally modest improvements to the sniper setups, maybe there's some loving for the snipes in the rigs? Since the rigs are supposed to be primarily defensive in nature, the combination may make things a bit more unbalanced but thats conjecture, I suspect we should wait and see how things develop ?? Obviously there are exceptions, but I trust that the devs are playtesting various configs and will make a reasoned decision on the whole prospect. Despite all of the equally impetuous declarations of how this is an obviously poorly thought out series of changes, there are some good points brought up - I hope it contributes positively to the final decision if any.
Rennard Deniz Mahsulleri Ofisi	Posted - 2006.10.21 08:44:00 - [384] You should boost smartbombs too as they will be no more than a joke after hp boost. See a interceptor tanking 6x smartbomb would be joke of the week...
God forbid Amarr Mithril Inc	Posted - 2006.10.21 09:29:00 - [385] Originally by: Tuxford Agility of battlecruisers and command ships boosted by 20% Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors Modules Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 ECM changes - I'm blogging about that one, hopefully comes later today omg This changes are all in the right direction.. The Other aswell, But this one kicks a Eve will rock even more omg.. Quote: "He did not know, Who he was ***** with."
sask	Posted - 2006.10.21 10:35:00 - [386] Kali 1 isn't out yet and ppl are already whining about it without knowing what other changes are going to happen, i mean wtf?!, there still isn't a final version how can you complain about it, ffs. When it's finally released then u can express ur complaints but not when u dont even know what else is going to change to balance things abit. [hint]Go read the Dev chatlog[/hint]
Davik Kurchek ISS Navy Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.21 10:37:00 - [387] that's me above -.-
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.21 10:42:00 - [388] [hint]they are whinning because they read the dev chatlog[/hint] Do you know how many posts a 90 page thread has?
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.21 11:01:00 - [389] I just wanted to re-whine about the differnece in Amarr amrmor resist bonuses vs. Gall rpr bonuses. maybe 10% per level for Gall rpr bous instead of 7.5% - either that or just give us the Amarr resist bonus instead. thanks.
Icarus Starkiller	Posted - 2006.10.21 11:26:00 - [390] 50% scan resolution for 1 WCS, and this penalty with stack? Farewell 0.0 raiders, good thing. Farewell to point-A-to-B moving anything, either. Gank squads with 7 points of tackle pretty much shut everything down except Armageddon. By the time you can lock and try to defend yourself you're waking up in a station. Even with the HP boost. IMO: 10% reduction in ROF (or damage), -15% to optimal and falloff range, +15% agility per WCS. That means that you can attempt to defend yourself if you've been jumped by a small group, and if you're just using an A-to-B setup you can align a slow boat relatively swiftly and have a chance of getting away from insufficient tackling gankmobs. Also, with nerfs to WCS, give bubbles & interdiction spheres a set scramble strength. On a side note: Give pods a 20 second invulnerability window so that the client can catch up after ship destruction. Double their align period, however. This will let the hapless pilot a moment to sync up, but not make the pod invulnerable to a fast locking tackler. - ISK Pharmers & Alt spies: A solution Life is pain...anyone who says differently is selling something.

Malvahne Amarr Wulong Mercenaries	Posted - 2006.10.21 11:34:00 - [391] Originally by: Ogdru Jahad All you pathetic whiners ! I have one magic word for you all... ADAPT! I did, i joined the easymode bandwagon and are now skilling for Caldari. Training frig 4 as i speak.
Hinterwaeldler Caldari Eve guardians	Posted - 2006.10.21 12:06:00 - [392] Originally by: Tuxford Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors This will favor the tanking boni of Amarr / Caldari (+25 resis on ships like Merlin, Punisher, Moa, Maller etc) over the gallente / minmatar ones (boost amount increase). Will said boost amount increase be increased as well to bring the boni on pair again?
Mahavy Seth Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.10.21 12:18:00 - [393] In 2007 there will be Star Trek Online.... exactly when my EvE year subscription end... Bye Bye EvE if CCP continue with this crap.
Vindicus Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.10.21 12:39:00 - [394] My advice to the devs: Avoid announcing game changes that cripple entire weapon systems until you actually come up with a method to make the weapons viable again. This thread is one big ****storm that could have been avoided otherwise.
Mallick	Posted - 2006.10.21 13:35:00 - [395] People whining about ammo, stfu! Now we can actully get some one in a dedicated 'Logistic' ship and actully _transport_ ammo with the fleet? IT MAKES SENSE THAT YOU WOULD HAVE SUPPLY SHIPS SUPPLYING THE FLEET! NOW STFU!
Ewa Quillam Caldari mega mining corporation Astral Wolves	Posted - 2006.10.21 13:49:00 - [396] Hello, First of all, I'm please to see all these changes. I believe the game will become more interesting and balanced from now on. Of course, some old players will have to adapt to the new changes, but that's just the fun part . Originally by: Tuxford bonus of covert ops ships changed so it reduces cpu need of covert ops cloaking device from 98% to 100% As asked before, will this apply to recons, too? I'd find such a bonus a very nice one, because it will make recons even more versatile, for example, I have to struggle a bit with mods and CPU demands to fit a probe laucher without Recon Ships V and a cpu enhancer. In my opinion, fitting a scan probe launcher is a must for recons, if not why would we name them recons ? Originally by: Tuxford Nighthawk's explosion velocity changed to launcher rate of fire bonus The current bonus is "10% bonus to heavy missile target navigation prediction" per BC level. Replacing it means "10% bonus to heavy missile rate of fire" per BC level? Also, I'd like to suggest the following changes, suggesions that have already been made in this thread: - add some more targetting range bonus to the Vulture, the setups that we have to do right now to actually make it a sniper boat (and that's the purpose of the boat) are just gimping everything else. - add one more turret slot on the Vulture and the PG to fit it. Right now the Vulture is just not worth it, when we could do with a MOA which is just far cheaper . That's even why the Vulture has such a low price... people consider it useless and don't train for it. Making these changes will bring even more diversity into the game. - add one more turret slot to the Eagle and the PG to fit it. It will be a natural progresion from the MOA, in my opinion. Thx for reading,
Vestah Amarr	Posted - 2006.10.21 13:50:00 - [397] Edited by: Vestah on 21/10/2006 13:53:54 Is npc hp also going to go up? If so, will npc bounties, mission rewards, and time limits be increased to compensate for increased npc hp? (i.e. increased time and ammunition necessary to kill npc`s or finish the mission.)
Humble Voh	Posted - 2006.10.21 14:02:00 - [398] I think this change will be HUGE. As other posters have said, it will affect the game in myriad ways - nerfing snipers, amarr etc etc etc My question is WHY? Why put in a massive gameplay change? (good or bad, I can't judge). Was the game broken before? This reminds me of SWG changes - just change the fundamentals of the game blithely. I'm not whingeing, I'm not saying this is a terrible change. But I am saying it's a big change. And I don't think the game is in such a bad state that CCP need to implement a big change and then spend the next 6 months balancing it.
Spikum Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 14:02:00 - [399] I fear those changes will pretty make Passive Tanks imba! If you have a look on caldari commandships or hacs for example.
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.21 14:16:00 - [400] i'm just ****ed because i can't fit 2 wcs and rat at the same time. the low-sec risk:reward ratio just skyrocketed. i'm not going into low-sec anymore because it's no longer profitable. i can't rat when i have a max targeting range of 11.25km on my cruiser. i can't even use artillery because i have to be so close that they can't track their targets. the ship hp thing is going to cause a hell of a lot of game balance issues and may take several months to sort it out. ship bonuses, modual stats, weapon properties, ammo damage, are all going to have to be ajusted. i think the people complaining about insta-popping got this pushed through. also this means my destroyer will no longer be able to kill cruiser rats in 0.3 i'm tempted to take a few months off from eve to avoid the train wreck i'm sure is coming. --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=411964Gaming La

Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.21 14:20:00 - [401] Originally by: Humble Voh And I don't think the game is in such a bad state that CCP need to implement a big change and then spend the next 6 months balancing it. word --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=411964Gaming La
Malvahne Amarr Wulong Mercenaries	Posted - 2006.10.21 14:41:00 - [402] Originally by: Ewa Quillam Hello, First of all, I'm please to see all these changes. I believe the game will become more interesting and balanced from now on. (Not a flame attempt but) Have you ever flown any other ship then Caldari? If not please do and tell me then that this will be a fair balacing. If you do have lots of experiance with the other races ships then please tell me and my brother Amarrians on how to adept to the up comming changes when we are already pritty strugling as it is Ps: Find all the typo's and get a free cookie!
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.21 14:44:00 - [403] Originally by: Malvahne Originally by: Ogdru Jahad All you pathetic whiners ! I have one magic word for you all... ADAPT! I did, i joined the easymode bandwagon and are now skilling for Caldari. Training frig 4 as i speak. QFT my raven and dominix r ready to pwn i adapted! Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
darkmancer	Posted - 2006.10.21 15:06:00 - [404] Edited by: darkmancer on 21/10/2006 15:10:40 ddOkay a few thoughts on the changes; Powergrid of Sacrilege, Deimos and Muninn increased to 1100MW, 950MW and 1100MW respectively - fine but no pg too caldari railboats :( Agility of battlecruisers and command ships boosted by 20% - Fantastic maybe my ferox wont move like a brick. well a slightly faster brick. Nighthawk's explosion velocity changed to launcher rate of fire bonus - About time you've just give the NH a 25% damage boost and non of the other races are throwing a strop. Kinda gives a clue as to how sucky it was before. What took so long? what happened to more small patchs fixing thing like this? Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors - Ouu the big bomb shell. Okay this is a penatly to the time it takes smaller ships to destroy larger ships (all rof stays the same but +50% to 100 = 50 hit point but +50% to 20hp is a measly 10), but there's as combat lasts longer it gives faster (which tend to be the smaller) ships more time to get out of the other ships optimal range and reduces the impact of lucky shots. Inty pilots should be jumping for joy :) The real spanking goes to ships who depend on range over dps (all you eagle pilots its lube up time). In some circumstances Arty burst damage will be more important now, but overall this patch will hurt them, as it will rails with they're low DPS&Burst, missile ships are more about avoiding otherships optimals so a slight disadvantage to them but nothing to cry about. Auto cannons and blasters get a boost cuz the extra combat time will be once they're in range, there is issues about clips size for auto and cap for blasters but i'd have to says they still getting a boost. I didn't really check it but I'll probably increase shield recharge rate by about 50% as well just to be on the safe side - Okay tux meant recharge time, anyway, abount passive tankers t1 ships get no real bonus from this as the recharge rate wont be affected. T2 ships will get a advantage IF tux just gives a 50& Shield recharge time boost to all ships. But having said that I've played around with passive tanks and for the loss of damage, cap recharge, ecm, tackling and resists you get a recharge rate which at peak is comparable too a t2 booster, whoop de doo. Having said that small ships that can do it and dont lose loads of slots are propobly getting a good advantage. Plates are getting the better end of the deal, with a larger hp boost over extenders. Modules Inertia stabilizers give decrease in mass as well as agility and give a penalty to signature radius - interesting may actually be worth something now. Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 - I like this change but some of the whines are actually worth considering. I think the "now i cant fight back" whine isa load off bs, but those who argue about helping level the odds when out numbered do have a point, Perhape we should have another type of WCS with 50% targetting range 50% mass, 50% speed (with penalties not stacking at all) for combat?, I've not seen anyone mention stealth bombers yet (not surprising as not many use them), then need a complete rethink and overall now more than ever. We'll see the ecm changes later but there's already a bit of a nerf as the combat lasts longer it gives more chance for ecm to fail a round, more chance for drones to do they're job, and more chance for the ecm ship to run out of cap. Also nos becomes more powerful now with defense more powerful the ability to neutrilse a ship without punching though becomes more attactive (why can't nos decrease your cap recharge time while increasing your opponents? ) Hope ECM burst actually become useful (maybe as a anti drone wep?). So all told yay to short range plated blasters, nay to long range wcs'd snipers.
Malvahne Amarr Wulong Mercenaries	Posted - 2006.10.21 15:19:00 - [405] Edited by: Malvahne on 21/10/2006 15:19:40 Nice writen post but i felt to need to quote you on a small part. Originally by: darkmancer I didn't really check it but I'll probably increase shield recharge rate by about 50% as well just to be on the safe side - Okay tux meant recharge time, anyway, abount passive tankers t1 ships get no real bonus from this as the recharge rate wont be affected. T2 ships will get a advantage IF tux just gives a 50& Shield recharge time boost to all ships. But having said that I've played around with passive tanks and for the loss of damage, cap recharge, ecm, tackling and resists you get a recharge rate which at peak is comparable too a t2 booster, whoop de doo. Having said that small ships that can do it and dont lose loads of slots are propobly getting a good advantage. Plates are getting the better end of the deal, with a larger hp boost over extenders. While plates indeed add more armour then a extender adds shield the fact that it takes more cpu/pg to fit a plate and the fact a shield regenerates i think its balanced out the fact both just get a 50% boost.
Ezra Gallente Calista Industries	Posted - 2006.10.21 16:20:00 - [406] Originally by: Tuxford I've been replying to the forums today. I'm just gonna list some of the smaller tweaks and changes here. Agility of battlecruisers and command ships boosted by 20% To clarify - Do you actually mean increased by 20% (bad) or did you really mean improved by 20% (i.e. you decreased it), since currenty agility is stored as a "mass multiplier" internally and reducing it improves your ships' agility? If you actually increased the mass multiplier by 20%, why? Sluggish BC/commandship performance has been a major player complaint about those classes for months. ------------ Ezra Cornell pe0n, Calista Industries
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.21 16:26:00 - [407] I am 100% sure he means 20% good. god I hope! :)
Helenae GandY Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.21 17:35:00 - [408] Disclaimer : english isn't my native, spelling issues should occure. You are making bomber way more useless than they where before. Last year there was a first hp increase. Bomber where not loved, but under certain circunstances, able to pop a frigate with their role "hit and run" (they already had the hidden ability to make full damage on small ships with cruise missiles). With the last year overhall, the bomber gained the ability to hit once uncloaked and recloak fast. But they where now nearly unable to make enough damage to kill a noob ship passing by... Now you add 25% and 50% hp respectively to T1 & T2 ships. What are the bomber good for ? They are useless in fleet battle (cruise are too slow), useless in gang (because cruise are too slow), useless in solo group (cruise are too slow and bomber are paper made ship so any ship will pop it fast with a pvp fitting). You want longer fights, but what about this ship who have nothing (but the signature, which is gimped) to do long fights ? Even the manticore become 50% more useless because its a ship dedicated to "hit & run/cloak" and it wont be able to scratch a gallente shield. What about finding something for all the bomber ships, instead of making them useless ? The cyno/cloak bug is boring enough, killing a good ship branch role, and now the bomber branch is definitively buried...
darkmancer	Posted - 2006.10.21 18:53:00 - [409] Quote: While plates indeed add more armour then a extender adds shield the fact that it takes more cpu/pg to fit a plate and the fact a shield regenerates i think its balanced out the fact both just get a 50% boost. It takes more cpu to fit a shield extender, so its easier to fit on shield ships, where as plates take more cpu and are designed for armour tankers. So neither are harder to fit. Currently a 1600 t2 plate give 3360 compared to the 2100 a large t2 shield extender gives. Soo for every plate fitted the shield extender has to give a EXTRA 1260 hp reg over the course of combat. No chance. Take into account you only get peak recharge over a short period of time and you get diminising returns for each extender fitted, even for a dedicated passive tanker this isnt possible. Now throw in the 630 per plate the patch gives. Even if the combat lasts long (more time to regen), plates are superiour. The only mitagation is that the shield do regen so not having a shield booster, isnt as bad as not having a armour rep. Another negative is passive takers will have to wait long for shields to reg now (especially the last few %).
Fredou Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.10.21 19:12:00 - [410] I can see maybe 3 problems cargo space for ammo capacitor passive shield recharge rate --- Don't forget to check my current Escrow!

The Armin Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.21 21:35:00 - [411] While I am pleased with the plans of making combat last longer, these changes seems to have been decided about in a bit of a hurry. You just encouraged more ganking. Instead of bringing one of his friends the usual ganker will now bring four since hitpoints are doubled on most ships. 1on1's will be all about who's cap is breaking first. (Perhaps the Apoc isn't such a bad ship after the changes then ?) The fact that WCS got nerft, thank you longtime =))) Minmatarians shouldn't whine too loud I think. The autopest will be a VERY good ship frankly. I can see that the bthron might get troubles breaking tanks/cap before it own cap goes empty.. But the pest can keep shooting and shooting.. I'm flying Amarr, but with these changes I might actually train for a tempest and autoes =)
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.21 21:44:00 - [412] I don't buy the whole 'people will bring more friends' argument. If someone has four buddies to bring along and gank someone with they would do that already. The change doesn't magically bring extra pilots and ships to the tableà ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Pehova Mindtriq Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.21 21:48:00 - [413] How long will it take before you apply the changes to tranq? 2 weeks, 2 monts? Just curious. Celes/Toxin vs BOB
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.21 22:29:00 - [414] Edited by: Gorion Wassenar on 21/10/2006 22:29:21 I didn't think about what this change would do the SB's damage capabilities. Now with this new change they'll be luck to kill and Inty at all at any range. Looks like its staying in the hanger forever now.... ------------------ CEO of TKI
Akiman	Posted - 2006.10.21 22:43:00 - [415] Originally by: Tuxford I've been replying to the forums today. I'm just gonna list some of the smaller tweaks and changes here. Ships Powergrid of Sacrilege, Deimos and Muninn increased to 1100MW, 950MW and 1100MW respectively why deimos upgraded to 950 while others 1100? wee have to fit micro warp drive you know that dont you? we couldnt fit a cap injector so we need a med nos for survivability u know that dont you? 3 meds in a blaster boat is a pain u know that dont you? still she got lowest pg...ah geezz...
Electric Cucumber Amarr Beagle Corp R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.21 23:00:00 - [416] Originally by: Akiman Originally by: Tuxford I've been replying to the forums today. I'm just gonna list some of the smaller tweaks and changes here. Ships Powergrid of Sacrilege, Deimos and Muninn increased to 1100MW, 950MW and 1100MW respectively why deimos upgraded to 950 while others 1100? wee have to fit micro warp drive you know that dont you? we couldnt fit a cap injector so we need a med nos for survivability u know that dont you? 3 meds in a blaster boat is a pain u know that dont you? still she got lowest pg...ah geezz... So you want to fit neutrons,nos,mwd,cap injector and tank?
Aurora Ming	Posted - 2006.10.22 00:13:00 - [417] "Shield extenders and plates increased by 50%" This is over-kill. It was increased not long ago, it dosn't need increased again.
Berrik Radhok GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.10.22 01:22:00 - [418] Originally by: Mallick People whining about ammo, stfu! Now we can actully get some one in a dedicated 'Logistic' ship and actully _transport_ ammo with the fleet? IT MAKES SENSE THAT YOU WOULD HAVE SUPPLY SHIPS SUPPLYING THE FLEET! NOW STFU! If you knew anything about fleet battles (and it's obvious you don't thanks to this ignorant comment), you'd know no one seriously uses logistics ships in PVP because in a fleet battle they will always be called primary and popped like a zit. Sig removed, inappropriate content - Cortes
Tammarr	Posted - 2006.10.22 01:51:00 - [419] And its a good thing he posted it in the ships&modules forum instead of straight into eve general with a more fiting title "Everything Changes, please read but I dont want to take the 10000 replies this post will get so I post it in ships & modules instead in a sneaky manner, kk?" This thread have gotten way below the level of attention it deserves. And yes I do belive this will make mining in alliance space totaly safe. I've actually begun skilling a new character for mining so atleast I'll be prepared to mine in total safety in big alliances space since no hit & run ops will take place, most probably :) And wcs nerf is still to big, this isnt a game of "death before dishonor". Drop the frantic killmail obsessions some have and realize an opponent can lose even if he dosent get blown up, but that is to hard a concept for many to grasp I suppose.
Cmdr Sy Off Balance Sheet Entity	Posted - 2006.10.22 03:43:00 - [420] Funny, I don't recall ever fitting WCS for 0.0 hit and run ops. Maybe that one time in FOE in EIV-1W (honestly can't remember), trying to raid the entire North in one night, but since my Scorp was made primary by 12 BS and lagged straight into a cloning facility, I don't think whether I fitted them or not ever came into play. Hit and run ops can be done without WCS. It is not an essential PVP module unless you make it so, and I don't think the demise of the WCS and heatsink fitted Gankageddon will seriously degrade the diversity of alliance PVP.

Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.22 08:02:00 - [421] I'm caldari to the core, but even I'm concerned waht these changes mean for the minnies. I'd hate for a quater of all ship desgins to be completely boned by this. "Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu
Kolhell Minmatar CAD Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.22 08:05:00 - [422] Originally by: Zeroskills Originally by: Tuxford Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors I understand the motivation behind the 50% HP increase. While the other changes are all correctly classified as "tweaks" (scalpel work), I worry that the HP increase is surgery by samurai sword. While more HP will result in longer combat duration, this change will have trickle down impact on all aspects of PvP balance: Significant nerf to alpha-strike dependant weapons (especially artillery) Significant nerf to alpha-strike dependant ships (especially destroyers) Significant nerf to cap dependant weapons (especially Amarr) Significant nerf to heavy ammo use weapons (especially BS-size; especially autocannons) Significant nerf to cap booster-reliant builds Significant buff to nos/neuts (longer combat = increased likelihood of bleeding target dry) Significant nerf to small gang/hit-and-run operations (50%+ more time for the blob to counter) Moderate nerf to offensive PvP ops generally (logistical problems due to 50%+ increase in required ammo/cap charges) Moderate nerf to smaller ships (same lock time + longer combat = higher likelihood of getting nosed/webbed/worn down by light drones) Moderate nerf to active tanking (i.e. cap use > cap recharge) Moderate nerf to aggro timer (i.e. tank damage until one can jump/dock) Moderate nerf to warp bubbles (more time to slow boat to station/gate) Slight buff to close combat ships (less damage taken during approach as % of total HP) Upsets current balance between "gank" vs. "tank" Upsets current balance between weapon types No significant change to fleet combat (focused fire from 15 BSes will still one-volley the primary target; only change, post-patch, is that 33.3% more guns will successfully activate before the target pops) Very significant changes to small gang combat (specifically, changes that further amplify the advantage of superior numbers) I agree that, all else equal, longer combat is a good thing. However, this is hardly an "all else equal" scenario. My greatest fear is the next year will be spent trying to fix the unintended consequences of this 50% HP increase. In spite of all the "nerf/boost" posts on these forums, EVE's PvP is generally very well balanced. This unique balance is more important than a 50% increase in combat duration. Please do not let this change go live--it will break that balance. Regards, Zeroskills[SUN] www.guildofsun.com how are people not getting more upset about this?! this is even going to affect you silly missile users ------------------------- bury the hatchet
VFR ViLLaN Solidline Enterprise Kith of Venal	Posted - 2006.10.22 08:45:00 - [423] I have to say that I very rarely post on these forums, I think that for the most part CCP do a pretty good job and don't need me adding to the list of moans. However I think that the 50% hp/plate/extender increase sucks. This is a BAD idea.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.22 09:02:00 - [424] Edited by: LUKEC on 22/10/2006 09:02:04 Originally by: Mila Prestoc Originally by: Gabriel Karade I don't buy the whole 'people will bring more friends' argument. If someone has four buddies to bring along and gank someone with they would do that already. The change doesn't magically bring extra pilots and ships to the tableà Maybe not, but if you try and solo someone in a fair fight the extra hp/fight time means they can quite easily call for friends, especially if its in enemy territory. A recent nice video (or two) called Revenge of ??? shows him attacking NPC'ers in there territory and how often people called for help only for the help to arrive to late or just in time... with the hp boost any decent setup pilot can call for help and have mates come from jumps away not just in the same system. Hence instead of going for some small/solo work your only real option to kill stuff is to take as many people as you can. I've never seen npcer tank for more than 40s(vs 1 bs that is). Maybe in angel regions they tank a bit better, but in sansha/gurista regions it's possible to 3-4 volley them, especially if they armor tank with no explo/kin hardener. Proposed hp changes will only increase ganking.
rodgerd Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.22 09:20:00 - [425] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Tuxford Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 So all those pirates who like to gank mission runners get their wish. Fitting even a single warp core scrambler "just in case" is now totally out of bounds for a level 4 mission runner. It's too much of a penalty. Just run missions in highsec, and then watch as all the piwates howling for WCS to be drummed out of the game show up en mass and demand anything better than level 1s be shifted to lowsec. Unintended consequences FTW. Not the opinions of my corp or my alliance.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.22 09:59:00 - [426] Originally by: Tuxford Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors Could you decrease capacitor booster volume by 50% too, please? Or my blasterthron is going to be a very unhappy bunny.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:07:00 - [427] Originally by: Zeroskills Originally by: Tuxford Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors While more HP will result in longer combat duration, this change will have trickle down impact on all aspects of PvP balance: Significant nerf to alpha-strike dependants Significant nerf to cap dependant weapons (especially Amarr and Gallente) Significant nerf to heavy ammo use weapons (especially BS-size; especially autocannons) Significant nerf to cap booster-reliant builds Significant buff to nos/neuts (longer combat = increased likelihood of bleeding target dry) Significant nerf to small gang/hit-and-run operations (50%+ more time for the blob to counter) Moderate nerf to offensive PvP ops generally (logistical problems due to 50%+ increase in required ammo/cap charges) Moderate nerf to smaller ships (same lock time + longer combat = higher likelihood of getting nosed/webbed/worn down by light drones) Moderate nerf to active tanking (i.e. cap use > cap recharge) Moderate nerf to aggro timer (i.e. tank damage until one can jump/dock) Moderate nerf to warp bubbles (more time to slow boat to station/gate) Slight buff to close combat ships (less damage taken during approach as % of total HP) Upsets current balance between "gank" vs. "tank" Upsets current balance between weapon types No significant change to fleet combat (focused fire from 15 BSes will still one-volley the primary target; only change, post-patch, is that 33.3% more guns will successfully activate before the target pops) Regards, Zeroskills[SUN] Wow. That's a long list. I shortened it down a bit to conserve characters, I hope you don't mind? Also, I added one or two words (in red) that you forgot. Here's a few comments: Don't forget that Gallente and Raildari use just as much capacitor per second as Amarr (or near enough that there's no point trying to distinguish the two). 50% more time in EVE terms isn't all that much, you know. In most cases this still mean combat time is less than a minute. It isn't a nerf to warp-bubbles at all. A bubble camp has to have webbifiers, and honestly slowboating in less than 100m/s is going to get you killed however you look at it. Tux can raise the HPs by 5,000% and it won't change bubble camps at all. There is no balance between "gank" and "tank". Please explain how it can upset balance between weapon types? I do believe that you are rather heavily over exaggregating the impact that merely 50% more hit points is going to have on the game. On a minor note, small fleet combat isn't going to be affected by this any more than what you already listed - it would have been a significantly different matter in case he'd have boosted resistances or active tanks. Additionally, I do not know whether you realize it, but longer combat times are greatly needed and there's only one way to do that without seriously destroying game balance between damage and tank - and that is through hit points, which belongs to neither. But there are some valid points: * Nosferatus (not Neuts, since they drain your own cap) will become much more important than they already are * Autocannon ammo usage needs to approach artillery more for a homogeneous ammo usage in the same category weapons * The longer combats, the longer the aggression timers need to be. It is already bordering on too short with 30 seconds. * Something really needs be done about docking games. - What am I listening to?
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:12:00 - [428] Originally by: Audri Fisher Originally by: Grey Area So if the problem with warp core stabs was cowardly snipers, why not try this for size instead; 1. Halve range of all long range weapons 2. Give all ships a "sniper mode"...a button you press which doubles your range - but stops your engines 3. Entering and/or leaving sniper mode takes 60 seconds 4. WCS get put back to normal This introduces the REAL penalty that a sniper should pay...if he gets caught at close range, he's in trouble. It would give sniper-hunter teams a chance to kill snipers in the 60 second window before they came out of sniper mode. but of course, since the REAL reason behind the cries for a WCS nerf is to make it easier for pirates to gank carebears, this will never happen. 60 seconds? this guarantees you WILL get caught. The timing could be argued over forever and a day...snipers will always say it's too long of course. the point was to GIVE snipers a vulnerability whereas currently they have none. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:19:00 - [429] Originally by: Epsilon 1 If you die in that scenario WCS no WCS, you deserve it. Oh and did i say that NPCing with stabs is as * as it gets. This fix has only PVP in mind. The whine of the pirate yet again. They want us to watch local while missioning, and always stay aligned with the gate so we can warp out. In other words, the responsibility for not being ganked relies entirely with the victim. Heaven forbid that a pirate should actually have to WORK for his kill...they want us all on a plate with an apple stuffed in our mouths. I assume it's * to fit warp core stabs on a mission because we might actually get away? "This fix has only PVP in mind"...yes you're right. PVE'ers get the shaft yet again. I should be used to it by now, but it's another twist of the dagger every time. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:26:00 - [430] Originally by: Ginger Magician Well interesting. Have you given a single thought to a whole class of profession called piracy? If u cant fit stabs when sniping then sniping is no more and the increase in hps of ships just means that ships will be unkillable anyway. These changes seem to indicate only gank squads can ever possibly win in combat in future and the death of solo pvp. I suggest u give these changes some more thought because as it stands u have just ruined the gameplay of at least 10000 subscribers. Funny, because I solo PvP without stabs very happily. To be perfectly honest, I wouldnt even count 200km 4-stab gate ganking as true PvP anyway. It is mind numbing. You'll have to come in close to fight now. Have fun.

sallyr Gallente Mithril Inc Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:49:00 - [431] i think the point about stabs is that they havent been nerfed! any1 who still wants to travel through low sec safely can! as they have no interest in fighting. however people who are really actualy do need to PVP! rather then PVPU55Y! (\_/) (O.o) (> <) Resistance is Futile Find us here
Ewa Quillam Caldari mega mining corporation Astral Wolves	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:51:00 - [432] Originally by: Malvahne Originally by: Ewa Quillam Hello, First of all, I'm please to see all these changes. I believe the game will become more interesting and balanced from now on. (Not a flame attempt but) Have you ever flown any other ship then Caldari? If not please do and tell me then that this will be a fair balacing. If you do have lots of experiance with the other races ships then please tell me and my brother Amarrians on how to adept to the up comming changes when we are already pritty strugling as it is Ps: Find all the typo's and get a free cookie! I very much enjoy the wide array of shuttles that Eve provide. No, I only fly caldari, later on I'll train for gallente. But I realy **** my self sometimes when I ran out of cap charges cause the rails have eaten all of them and I can't get than hungry mwd running again and I can't tank, cause I can't fit all that on my ship... So, get a life people, we don't even know if this will be implemented as it is... changes do occur and some of us might not like them. Now, I'd like to return the question... have u ever flown anything else but amarr? If u do, u might still be halfway ready for this change that's so scarry...
M4sterm1nd DarkStar 1 Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:58:00 - [433] LOVE the WCS nerf, but I trust barges will be exempt from the nerf? Would be a little inconvenient if your lockrange became so short that by the time you can lock a roid, it would be blocking your dronebay doors. While I find the notion of every minmatar sniper out there likely jumping off a roof at the thought of never being able to instagib and smack n00bs again, never pestering people with pointless pwnage from diseased ranges again, and never feeling like a real man again, I'm still curious why no dev has answered the one question on virtually everyone's lips: What is to become of artillery as a valid weapon choice? To be fair, the only reason I want to know is that noone's answering it. With all the daytime soap hysterics you find in here, you'd almost believe the poor little artillery has been neutered into a civvyrail/snowball hybrid. Sure, with 8 stabs your firing & lockrange drops to like four inches and locking even a dreadnought would take a hour and a half, but then DONT STAB or DONT SNIPE Cant say I dont look forward to finding out what this'll do for me Ferox Headline one-liners: Suicidal Teen Kills Twin By Mistake! (My sig left after Eldo called her fat)
Xeno Xandovar Minmatar Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.22 12:56:00 - [434] Warp core stab update is propable best thing you have done ever. thumbs up
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.22 13:12:00 - [435] Edited by: Wrayeth on 22/10/2006 13:12:45 Well, I've tried to be supportive of the changes, but this update (hitpoint increases) completely swung me around the other way. This change will make EVE unplayable as a Minmatar battleship pilot. It will also destroy solo and small gang PvP. Tux, I keep telling everyone that personal attacks won't get them anywhere with the devs, since you folks are human beings just like the rest of us. When harangued, you're less likely to help the person than when spoken to in a calm, reasoned manner. That said, for the first time in a while I find myself wanting to scream and shout and flame regarding a change to EVE. Instead, I'll just say "no". It will ruin small-scale PvP and spell the death of everything Minmatar. It will also make active tanks worthless, and Minmatar have several active shield tankers with dedicated bonuses (sleipnir, etc.). I hope the hitpoint boost is reconsidered, otherwise I fear my subscription will be in serious jeopardy. This isn't a threat; it's just the only way I have of changing things: voting with my pocketbook. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Ejderdisi	Posted - 2006.10.22 13:30:00 - [436] 1 more problem : a stealth bomber is designed by CCP as an alpha strike frig killer for very short duration fights(not even fights - it should be and designed as a u-boat against un escorted merchant ships unless in numbers so it's not designed for fair fights at the first place). Now frigs are resistant to alpha strikes. Buff my bomber!!! Give my role back or make me another or.. Ok u get the point :)
Merc Avenger	Posted - 2006.10.22 13:37:00 - [437] Well To me it seems a boost to the 4 races in the precisely the opposit of order that was needed. Caldari (flavor of the year) and gets the most, minmatar (the kicked underdog) gets a the least. Is the HP boost just intended to make eve more of a single race for the ease of balancing? Are we all supposed to fly caldari, except when for the few who RP a bit? Is it because the new factional warfare will be caldari against the rest? To me it seems like CCP wants to give bigger and bigger incentives to get everyone to change Caldari, question is why they would destroy the wonderfull diversity by making a favored race and keep giving giving it favorit treatment. As more and more players change to Caldari the possiblity of actually balancing eve out grows dimmer, as CCP will have to upset a incrasing part of their customers the longer they wait.
Phrixus Zephyr Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:09:00 - [438] So how exactly are you supposed to kill lone target's on your own in a hostile system before his friend's come and wtfpwn you? 50% increase is abit over the top.
Warlord Zinji	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:26:00 - [439] jesus u guys cry alot
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:45:00 - [440] Originally by: Warlord Zinji jesus u guys cry alot Yeah that is true - but with these proposed changes, it is not without warrant. Especially since they basically sprung these on us in the last week. This is something they kept quiet because they knew it was not in the general publics best interest. I am a conspiracy theorist though. :)

Spikum Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:55:00 - [441] -When increasing the hitpoints the should be a Cap increase aswell, otherwise it will really depend on cap who will win and who not? Minmatar ftw? -Nos will become more important. -Stealbombers suck incredible now -Give smartbombs some love and remove micro smarties :p -Improve cap boosters. They still need to much cargo -Warpcorestabs need a hitpoint penalty! -Why does an armor plate needs CPU i dont get the point? -Add a skillbonus for shuttles :p
sjrenzer	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:37:00 - [442] I agree with most issues coming from the hp-boost (especially the uselessness of alpha), however, we all seem to forget everbody get's the boost: you'll have to do more damage, but the other guy will run out of ammo too. Everybody will have to carry more ammo, missiles, cap boosters, ... so it's not like: omg my ship is useless, it's like: omg every ship is useless Now to make a point, I believe Tuxford wants to boost logistics with this patch (it's the only reason I can think off) because now you'll need ships to carry around extra ammo. I also believe the Amarr gets a little boost because they're the only race capable of fielding ships with weapons + tank that can run forever (using natural cap regen) while other ships will sooner or later run out of weapons... Ofcourse, when compared to the general consequenses: cargo load, alpha, Amarr EM-damage, hit & run and whatever, the hp-boost would need some little thinking... just my $0.02
Dryxonedes Sae Whine Distillery	Posted - 2006.10.22 17:46:00 - [443] After having only read 4 pages of this after the initial I can see why the minnies are so mad... I don't fly the meccano + duct tape jobs myself, but do know from flying alongside them that this is gonna fubar their objective to nowhereville. Surely the idea of further upping the damage mod and lengthening the rate of fire? Similar for anything that's designed as an alpha strike boat... Like i said, i'm sure it's been brought up in one post somewhere, but seriously, give the minnies this one ** Where's the problem? It's called natural selection - The bottom of the **ing food chain. -Denis Leary
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.22 20:23:00 - [444] Originally by: Spikum -Warpcorestabs need a hitpoint penalty! 20% reduce to shield per WCS fitted? Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.22 20:29:00 - [445] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Epsilon 1 If you die in that scenario WCS no WCS, you deserve it. Oh and did i say that NPCing with stabs is as * as it gets. This fix has only PVP in mind. The whine of the pirate yet again. They want us to watch local while missioning, and always stay aligned with the gate so we can warp out. In other words, the responsibility for not being ganked relies entirely with the victim. Heaven forbid that a pirate should actually have to WORK for his kill...they want us all on a plate with an apple stuffed in our mouths. I assume it's * to fit warp core stabs on a mission because we might actually get away? "This fix has only PVP in mind"...yes you're right. PVE'ers get the shaft yet again. I should be used to it by now, but it's another twist of the dagger every time. Tell me, do you think before you post? What is work considered to you, relative to now. Have you ever pirated? DO you even know how much work it currently takes?
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.22 21:15:00 - [446] Seriously tux.. To make the hp change would require a rework of the whole game allmost. Now I wount say that would be a bad thing. Sure it could be fun actually.. But why not focus on things that are broken before changing things that arent (maby not optimal but working) Logistics ships are a good example. Then the poses n sovereignity system. Then TII ammo. And there is plenty of other things. I might not see the whole picture as your the one with knowledge about how things will become in this game but still. I think my point is valid..
Capt Rob Minmatar Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.22 21:25:00 - [447] from my view, the majority of the changes purposed here are just as a quick fix but will just end up creating problems. overall they seem to not have been well thought Signature removed due to inappropriate content. -Ivan K
Phillip Hamamoto	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:08:00 - [448] Edited by: Phillip Hamamoto on 22/10/2006 22:08:46 Edited by: Phillip Hamamoto on 22/10/2006 22:08:16 I'm not a pirate and I confess that I'm worried about the balance between the the pvp defense stuff and the pvp attack stuff, to not favor too much these pirates that make, with all respect to the persons playing this type of game, the life difficult to all. I'm asking to the dev team analyse carefully this issue before place it. Wanna unbalance too much towards the pirates become unhelpless the people that is not doing this type of the game? Will have an approppriate defense/tatics about it? Have a tatic to become this new thing usefulness? I ask to the dev team consider a 50%/50% chance to attack/defense teams. I ask this. This type of thing I repeat can unbalance to the pirates's side in a unfair way. We must have the right to have a counterattack. Respectfully, Phillip Hamamoto
Malvahne Amarr Wulong Mercenaries	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:42:00 - [449] Originally by: Ewa Quillam Originally by: Malvahne Originally by: Ewa Quillam Hello, First of all, I'm please to see all these changes. I believe the game will become more interesting and balanced from now on. (Not a flame attempt but) Have you ever flown any other ship then Caldari? If not please do and tell me then that this will be a fair balacing. If you do have lots of experiance with the other races ships then please tell me and my brother Amarrians on how to adept to the up comming changes when we are already pritty strugling as it is Ps: Find all the typo's and get a free cookie! I very much enjoy the wide array of shuttles that Eve provide. No, I only fly caldari, later on I'll train for gallente. But I realy ** my self sometimes when I ran out of cap charges cause the rails have eaten all of them and I can't get than hungry mwd running again and I can't tank, cause I can't fit all that on my ship... So, get a life people, we don't even know if this will be implemented as it is... changes do occur and some of us might not like them. Now, I'd like to return the question... have u ever flown anything else but amarr? If u do, u might still be halfway ready for this change that's so scarry... I give you props for flying a rail boat as caldari not standerd cookie cutter raven. How ever as you stated you do not have a tank on your boat as you cant fit it. I do have to have a tank becous i cant aford the luxery of auto regenerating my armour (I do not mean this bitter. I will never** expect armour to regenerate.) but it is what it is. I have experiance in flying other races at the moment i'm split in Gallente and Amarr skills. Besides these i also got 'Caldari cruiser-ish' experiance on a old char (But nothing fancy) Perhaps i go out of line here to say this but; I think that every one here who has experiance in multible race ships can savely admit that this will _not_ effect all races equaly fair. my to cents.. edit; typo's!
c0rn1 Seraphin Technologies Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:24:00 - [450] just FYI, Tux. With the new boosted armor & plates. You can easily push a BS to armor strength of the amount of a dreadnaught. 5000hp base @ tempest = 7500hp after patch 3350ho for 1600mm steel plate II = 5000hp after patch 6x 1600mm steelplate in the lows = 30,000 hp + base hp = 37,500 hp ... without taken any skills/implants/gang assist into account. Why, I question you, did I skill for dreadnaught/carrier if I can now have the same HP with a BS which is a more agile and versatile ship? Naglfar has 34375hp base just for comparison. regards c0rn1 x x x x x x x x x x x x x x -V- Diplomat -V- High Council Member Life's a waste of time ...

Sweriskaka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:41:00 - [451] Originally by: c0rn1 just FYI, Tux. With the new boosted armor & plates. You can easily push a BS to armor strength of the amount of a dreadnaught. 5000hp base @ tempest = 7500hp after patch 3350ho for 1600mm steel plate II = 5000hp after patch 6x 1600mm steelplate in the lows = 30,000 hp + base hp = 37,500 hp ... without taken any skills/implants/gang assist into account. Why, I question you, did I skill for dreadnaught/carrier if I can now have the same HP with a BS which is a more agile and versatile ship? Naglfar has 34375hp base just for comparison. regards c0rn1 Are you completely retarded? The Naglfar's base HP will be increased The Naglfar can fit an armor repairer, your setup doesn't 37500 HP will help you a hell of a lot when you have a base armor resistance of 10% More on that, a Tempest using Quake that has a competent fitting could kill you in about a minute. With 6 plates, you probably have about the same agility of a dreadnought. Also, you don't have any damage mods so you don't do any damage.
Naal Morno ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:38:00 - [452] The 50% increase across the board...is overboard! Whatever happened to idea of "dimishing return" of focused fire? I always envisioned some sort of shield or armor hardening modifier on each ship which would multiply incoming damage by some less than 1.00 number for each additional ship actively shooting the target. If the ship had 0.95 "Focused Fire Resistance" (this could be split into four basic resitance stats) and three ships would shoot the target, it would effectively receive standard damage * 0.95^3 * resistance modifier... Which would mean 0.857 damage before applying resistances. Problem of focused fire solved especially if the number was significantly less than 1.00... Not hard to do yet would not require global overhaul (well, maybe that's not entirely true). This would ensure there are no insta-pops due to focus fire. Thank you. _________________________________________ The cloaky orchestrator
Jenjuan Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:35:00 - [453] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/10/2006 10:41:01 Still disappointed by lack of Khanid changes, but OMG WCS NERF - me love :) Definitely a good thing, are you on Offense or on Defense?? This will Force you to decide. hehe, should REALLY make things intersting. [url=http://profile.xfire.com/jenjuan][/url]
Archimedes Plato	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:51:00 - [454] Originally by: Tuxford I've been replying to the forums today. I'm just gonna list some of the smaller tweaks and changes here. Ships Agility of battlecruisers and command ships boosted by 20% Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors Thank God and it's about time. Everyone's been complaining that BC's more like an overpriced Cruiser and it's about time that they've been properly "Pumped Up"
Serj Darek Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:52:00 - [455] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 20/10/2006 15:28:26 Originally by: Serj Darek As a side note, you wonder why Minmatars get angry about stuff like this? Consider the Money and time I have invested in EVE? I have had 2 accounts since December 2003, which means I have paid roughly $13 USD per account per month. So $26 * 34 months = 884 USD. So why would I be dissapointed and frustrated as a Minmatar specialized player? Gee I don't know. Oh, right. You, unlike everyone else in the game, have actually paid money to play it. And on two accounts, no less. Yes, I suppose that does give you the unique right to be angry at random stuff as a kneejerk reaction. "Wonder why Gallente get angy about stuff like this? Consider all the money I have invested in beer since 2003... and now they nerf my railguns! Rabble rabble rabble!" I'm starting to become convinced that no matter what changes are ever made to the game, someone will scream "it's a Minmatar nerf!" from the sidelines. I guess it's a reflex, or something. This is in no way or form a "minmatar nerf" -- unless by "minmatar nerf" you actually mean "minmatar, gallente, amarr and railgun-using caldari nerf". The +50% hp thing hits pretty much all gun users; it could be argued that it doesn't even hit Minmatar all that hard since their weapons don't use cap. Ever look at the cap use of Gallente and Amarr weapons? Sigh. Ever looked at the Minmatar Shield/Armor/Structure/Cap ? Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes It contains my ingame name and corp ticker - Serj
Roshan longshot Gallente Order of the Arrow	Posted - 2006.10.23 10:56:00 - [456] humm 16 pages............... NERF low slot stacking! Dont increase hitpoints! And this 'we luv you tux' is only comming from that 'fellow'(?) in the tight leather chaps with no seat. The rest of us are still wondering why your doing this change? Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:00:00 - [457] Fix EANM, switch crystal EM for thermal and vice versa, boost artillery dmg mod by x percent => decrease artillery rate of fire x percent -- boost autocannon dmg mod by x percent => decrase autocannon rate of fire x percent, projectile ammo should be 0.001 m3 per unit -- ALL THIS BEFORE APPLYING THE IDIOTIC 50% HP BOOST PATCH -- and if you do all these changes: amarr will be FIXED, minmatar won't have alpha strike problems post-patch as well as autocannons running out of ammo. Or i will blow up myself !!
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:06:00 - [458] Edited by: Soraya Silvermoon on 23/10/2006 11:08:01 Originally by: Naal Morno The 50% increase across the board...is overboard! Whatever happened to idea of "dimishing return" of focused fire? I always envisioned some sort of shield or armor hardening modifier on each ship which would multiply incoming damage by some less than 1.00 number for each additional ship actively shooting the target. If the ship had 0.95 "Focused Fire Resistance" (this could be split into four basic resitance stats) and three ships would shoot the target, it would effectively receive standard damage * 0.95^3 * resistance modifier... Which would mean 0.857 damage before applying resistances. Problem of focused fire solved especially if the number was significantly less than 1.00... Not hard to do yet would not require global overhaul (well, maybe that's not entirely true). This would ensure there are no insta-pops due to focus fire. Thank you. Sorry but.. it will create a lot of problems.. How do you plan on killing a dread? say you get the hardest hitting ships. 3 dreads fireing at one. A dread can tank 3 other dreads. ofc you have nos but is this game going to be about nos only? Allso in my opinion the only ships that need hp increase is capital ships and they need something like 4x.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:23:00 - [459] Originally by: Sweriskaka Originally by: c0rn1 just FYI, Tux. With the new boosted armor & plates. You can easily push a BS to armor strength of the amount of a dreadnaught. 5000hp base @ tempest = 7500hp after patch 3350ho for 1600mm steel plate II = 5000hp after patch 6x 1600mm steelplate in the lows = 30,000 hp + base hp = 37,500 hp ... without taken any skills/implants/gang assist into account. Why, I question you, did I skill for dreadnaught/carrier if I can now have the same HP with a BS which is a more agile and versatile ship? Naglfar has 34375hp base just for comparison. regards c0rn1 Are you completely retarded? The Naglfar's base HP will be increased The Naglfar can fit an armor repairer, your setup doesn't 37500 HP will help you a hell of a lot when you have a base armor resistance of 10% More on that, a Tempest using Quake that has a competent fitting could kill you in about a minute. With 6 plates, you probably have about the same agility of a dreadnought. Also, you don't have any damage mods so you don't do any damage. Exactly. Plus, can a 6 plate BS enter seige? Its a ridiculous comparison.
Glarion Garnier Solar Wind	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:34:00 - [460] I would give straight 25% all types of hp of all ships . and boost BC's + definatelly interdictors + destroyers say 40% racial based hps for those say +25% to all ships to all types of HP 35% to BC's 40% to destroyers / interdictors then would fix the shield regen rate acordingly This fix would not unbalance too many aspects at once. t2 ammo needing fix: -Tech 2 rockets -hail ammo

Galen Silas Gallente Digital assassins	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:08:00 - [461] wow these changes are sweet, i am really liking the whole destroyer hitpoint thing as well, should make it a definately better ship and that warp core stab will helppeople not to snipeall the damn time on gates
Kiyirari	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:01:00 - [462] Originally by: Tuxford Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 Is this a stacking penalty to each WCS fitted or a one off penalty Revenge is my god and my guns are her angels
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:10:00 - [463] Originally by: Kiyirari Originally by: Tuxford Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 Is this a stacking penalty to each WCS fitted or a one off penalty Lets hope its stacking. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:13:00 - [464] Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio Tell me, do you think before you post? What is work considered to you, relative to now. Have you ever pirated? DO you even know how much work it currently takes? Let's put it into context shall we? I have no problem with REAL PVPers...those who go out there and look for people of roughly equal skills and intent to themselves, and fight over territory, honour, or just the fun of being involved in a large butt-kicking. That is probably quite hard work, yes, but since both sides were effectively equal, the nerf to warp core stabs is a "no-change" event. This therefore excludes gatecampers and those who hunt mission runners in 0.4 space. These are people who are looking for targets that they are damned sure will not be equipped to fight back. In this case the sides were NOT equal, and the WCS gave the mission runners some small assistance in being able to take their only option...to run away. The "pirates" (and I don't use the term in a good sense here) have thus whined like babies to have it removed, using the argument that it affects group ONE as mentioned above, when really, all they want to achieve is a 100% encounter:kill ratio. Gatecamping takes no brains, no skill, but some patience. Finding mission runners takes a little brains, probably less patience than gatecamping, but no real SKILL when it comes to the combat. If you think you can make a case that I am wrong on any of these points, I'd like to hear it. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:56:00 - [465] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio Tell me, do you think before you post? What is work considered to you, relative to now. Have you ever pirated? DO you even know how much work it currently takes? Let's put it into context shall we? I have no problem with REAL PVPers...those who go out there and look for people of roughly equal skills and intent to themselves, and fight over territory, honour, or just the fun of being involved in a large butt-kicking. That is probably quite hard work, yes, but since both sides were effectively equal, the nerf to warp core stabs is a "no-change" event. This therefore excludes gatecampers and those who hunt mission runners in 0.4 space. These are people who are looking for targets that they are damned sure will not be equipped to fight back. In this case the sides were NOT equal, and the WCS gave the mission runners some small assistance in being able to take their only option...to run away. The "pirates" (and I don't use the term in a good sense here) have thus whined like babies to have it removed, using the argument that it affects group ONE as mentioned above, when really, all they want to achieve is a 100% encounter:kill ratio. Gatecamping takes no brains, no skill, but some patience. Finding mission runners takes a little brains, probably less patience than gatecamping, but no real SKILL when it comes to the combat. If you think you can make a case that I am wrong on any of these points, I'd like to hear it. 1.) I hunt pirates, pirates use stabs, stabs make it hell to actually get pirates. 2.) If someone doesnt like the risk of low-sec, dont go there. Eve is not a game about being protected from combat all the time. Its a game based on risks, and the rewards that come with it. If you dont want to risk your ship, just down fly anywhere you can lose it. No need for stabs in .5+ right? 3.) Fitting a stab to escape from combat takes brains, and skill? How about avoiding the gatecamps, or using safe spots to ignore the pirates, ect. That takes some skill, not putting on stabs. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:13:00 - [466] Originally by: Popsikle Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio Tell me, do you think before you post? What is work considered to you, relative to now. Have you ever pirated? DO you even know how much work it currently takes? Let's put it into context shall we? I have no problem with REAL PVPers...those who go out there and look for people of roughly equal skills and intent to themselves, and fight over territory, honour, or just the fun of being involved in a large butt-kicking. That is probably quite hard work, yes, but since both sides were effectively equal, the nerf to warp core stabs is a "no-change" event. This therefore excludes gatecampers and those who hunt mission runners in 0.4 space. These are people who are looking for targets that they are damned sure will not be equipped to fight back. In this case the sides were NOT equal, and the WCS gave the mission runners some small assistance in being able to take their only option...to run away. The "pirates" (and I don't use the term in a good sense here) have thus whined like babies to have it removed, using the argument that it affects group ONE as mentioned above, when really, all they want to achieve is a 100% encounter:kill ratio. Gatecamping takes no brains, no skill, but some patience. Finding mission runners takes a little brains, probably less patience than gatecamping, but no real SKILL when it comes to the combat. If you think you can make a case that I am wrong on any of these points, I'd like to hear it. 1.) I hunt pirates, pirates use stabs, stabs make it hell to actually get pirates. 2.) If someone doesnt like the risk of low-sec, dont go there. Eve is not a game about being protected from combat all the time. Its a game based on risks, and the rewards that come with it. If you dont want to risk your ship, just down fly anywhere you can lose it. No need for stabs in .5+ right? 3.) Fitting a stab to escape from combat takes brains, and skill? How about avoiding the gatecamps, or using safe spots to ignore the pirates, ect. That takes some skill, not putting on stabs. I hunt carebears. Carebears use stabs. I think the stab nerf is something that for once both carebears and pirates can agree is a good thing. :p Because I said so...
Drazys	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:40:00 - [467] Hunting carebears ? Ah, then you must love the upcoming change since it allows people to go after REAL carebears like those gate gankers who warp out at first sign of danger and similar. Despite what many people want to think and want others to think, "carebear" and "pirate" are not opposites :) - Zeta
Elianidd Farseeker	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:21:00 - [468] The WCS nerf scares me. One of my first times out into < 0.5 (ratting), I lost my ship because I had no WCS and got scrambled. (And yes, I do "research" systems before I jump into them, etc. but that only tells you what's ALREADY happened, not what's GOING to happen.) So I put some WCS on my ship so that I can at least go into < 0.5 on occasion and have a good chance of getting away if it's only 1 or 2 player pirates that attack. Also, I've heard that there are NPC pirates that use scramblers as well. So now for me to have ANY chance of getting away from ANY kind of scrambler (player OR NPC), I have to sacrifice at LEAST 50% of my range to do so?!? (I'd expect it to be 75% for 2 WCS, etc.) That'd make it awfully tough to fight the oncoming horde of NPC mobs in tougher missions, wouldn't it? For any mission with any chance that I could get scrambled, I'd have to wait until the mobs were right on top of me before I even STARTED shooting at them, wouldn't it? Sounds to me like yet another game where PvE (and people who want to play it safe, or not focus solely on PvP) gets a big nerf whack because of PvPers who abused the mechanic ("sniping warpers" or some such from the sound of it.) Great way to discourage me EVEN MORE from going out and risking 0.4 or lower. Once more, PvP whiners screw up the game for PvE. Oh, and some handy cut-and-paste quotes for some anticipated responses: "If you don't want to PvP, then EVE isn't for you." "Cry more, n00b." "You deserve to die." "lern2play" etc. It was already ridiculous that there were no WCS modules that did more than 1, since there were scramblers, etc. that did up to 3, so you had to sacrifice MULTIPLE slots just to counter a SINGLE scrambler/disrupter. Might as well just put code in that locks you in place once you're in combat period. I understand that there might've been a problem with people sniping from very far away, then running if they were approached, but couldn't there have been some OTHER solution to the abuse problem without making it even HARDER for those of us who prefer to play by trying our best to AVOID combat with player pirates, etc. EVE - the online game where they're determined to remove the 'L' from "fight or flight"
Granth Roden	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:20:00 - [469] This argument seems to be missing the point. What the devs seems to want is: 1 - Reducing focused-fire and insta-kill of main targets. 2 - Reducing the long-range sniper uber-supremacy How to fix this? 1 - Use a law of decreasing results. Rationalize it by saying that each ship targetting the "prime" (which implies active radar-like "pinging") makes it harder to target, and causing a % of auto-misses due to that. So 5 ships have the effect (in total hps destroyed) of 4, and 10 have effect of 7, and 50 have effect of 20 or some such thing. 2 - Use range-dependent deviation. All real guns have this effect. In eve there is a rough model of this, the "gun signature". But it is a constant and range-independent, so a cruiser's gun misses by 125 meters EVEN IF THE TARGET IS 50 meters away and 50 meters long. Meaning the gun must actually turn 45¦ away from the target to fail. A more real signature would be say 50 m for each 10km - at 30 its 150m, at 50 its 250m and so on. Tracking would keep it balanced at close range. Apply this to sniper guns and you have in-built range control, with decreasing damage with range even within optimal, plus protection for smaller ships. Comments?
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.24 00:19:00 - [470] offense is now the only choice you can make to fit your ship. with the wcs nerf (nerfs are bad) there is no way to counter scrams without crippling your ship at the same time. a 11.25km max targeting range on my rupture really irks me. and that's only fit to counter one (1) warp scrambler. to get my range back i would have to fit three (3) sensor boosters. they don't stack remember? i now have a choice of damage mods or tank and almost all of my cpu is gone and no mid slots are left. that's one gimped piece of ship. i don't understand how anyone can see this as a good thing. oh, wait, gankers see it as a good thing. --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec

Naal Morno ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.24 00:38:00 - [471] Originally by: Soraya Silvermoon Edited by: Soraya Silvermoon on 23/10/2006 11:08:01 Originally by: Naal Morno The 50% increase across the board...is overboard! Whatever happened to idea of "dimishing return" of focused fire? I always envisioned some sort of shield or armor hardening modifier on each ship which would multiply incoming damage by some less than 1.00 number for each additional ship actively shooting the target. If the ship had 0.95 "Focused Fire Resistance" (this could be split into four basic resitance stats) and three ships would shoot the target, it would effectively receive standard damage * 0.95^3 * resistance modifier... Which would mean 0.857 damage before applying resistances. Problem of focused fire solved especially if the number was significantly less than 1.00... Not hard to do yet would not require global overhaul (well, maybe that's not entirely true). This would ensure there are no insta-pops due to focus fire. Thank you. Sorry but.. it will create a lot of problems.. How do you plan on killing a dread? say you get the hardest hitting ships. 3 dreads fireing at one. A dread can tank 3 other dreads. ofc you have nos but is this game going to be about nos only? Allso in my opinion the only ships that need hp increase is capital ships and they need something like 4x. By applying modifier of 1.00 to capitals and therefore skipping focused fire nerf. _________________________________________ The cloaky orchestrator
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.24 01:09:00 - [472] what's wrong with having every ship fire on one to take it out fast? that's the smart thing to do. --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec
Mjnari Empyreum	Posted - 2006.10.24 01:44:00 - [473] Originally by: Jones Maloy what's wrong with having every ship fire on one to take it out fast? that's the smart thing to do. Smart != fun ? ------------------------ Minmatar, It should be like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair shooting an Uzi.
Cheese999	Posted - 2006.10.24 03:05:00 - [474] Winning = Fun Therefore I propose that if Smart = Winning Then Smart = Fun QED
Mjnari Empyreum	Posted - 2006.10.24 05:13:00 - [475] Fallacy! Winning != Fun Look at WoW. ------------------------ Minmatar, It should be like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair shooting an Uzi.
Jin Masaru Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.24 05:50:00 - [476] Don't you see that this hp boost only encourages blobbing? PvP in eve becomes more one dimensional every day. ---- "There comes a time when a man must spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H. L. Mencken
H Zub Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.10.24 08:09:00 - [477] I manage to post this in wrong thread before, anyway here goes.. More hitpoints and far longer fights. Have you thought about small gangs and solo pvp? The hit point changes will mean death to smaller pvp groups. Wich is a shame if you ask me. Not to mention all the problems with lag, whats going to happend with more and larger blobs (to be able to finish off targets)? I will wait and see, but if it means you need to be in a blob to kill a battleship or 2. Then I am out for good. o/ The Hunter Hypnotized
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.24 08:13:00 - [478] Oh, FRACK. I almost forgot! Superweapon damage is fine, Tuxford! Just reduce the time-to-damage by 50% instead! The problem with Superweapons is not that it can't kill the heavily buffered battleships and command ships in one shot (this is actually a rather ridiculous idea!), the problem is that the non-buffered ships sized battlecruiser and larger has time to get away from the blast! Of course, neither the damage nor the time-to-damage change is going to alter the fact that it's useless against an aligned ship, but a non-aligned still battleship takes about 12 seconds to align and warp away. I believe the current Superweapon build-up time is 15 seconds - change this to 7 seconds. - What am I listening to?
Gyro DuAquin1 Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:03:00 - [479] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Sweriskaka Originally by: c0rn1 just FYI, Tux. With the new boosted armor & plates. You can easily push a BS to armor strength of the amount of a dreadnaught. 5000hp base @ tempest = 7500hp after patch 3350ho for 1600mm steel plate II = 5000hp after patch 6x 1600mm steelplate in the lows = 30,000 hp + base hp = 37,500 hp ... without taken any skills/implants/gang assist into account. Why, I question you, did I skill for dreadnaught/carrier if I can now have the same HP with a BS which is a more agile and versatile ship? Naglfar has 34375hp base just for comparison. regards c0rn1 Are you completely retarded? The Naglfar's base HP will be increased The Naglfar can fit an armor repairer, your setup doesn't 37500 HP will help you a hell of a lot when you have a base armor resistance of 10% More on that, a Tempest using Quake that has a competent fitting could kill you in about a minute. With 6 plates, you probably have about the same agility of a dreadnought. Also, you don't have any damage mods so you don't do any damage. Exactly. Plus, can a 6 plate BS enter seige? Its a ridiculous comparison. /me closes his eyes "now my little raven ull go into siege mode and we will tank those damn apoc over there" boom ok didnt work Anyhow iam looking forward to most of these changes, cause they are going to change things and thats fine so anyone out there has to learn again, thats fun.
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:40:00 - [480] Edited by: Skeltek on 24/10/2006 09:42:31 I can already feel the whine-threads coming: Nerf NightHawk ^^ Caldari got Raven, Cerberus and now even a deathbringing missionmachine, usable only for missions and nothing else: Nighthawk ; P Now to be totaly serious... this doesn¦t seem to have been a decision for balancing reasons but rather to make most of the empirecarebears satisfied and shutting up I guess... One race having all the missionships and the others getting more and more unable to do missions in turretships. All LvL4 missions are soloable in a Raven/Cerb, almost none are doable in another shiptype. Aren¦t they meant for being made in teams only like it was intended back then so long ago... ? = / I guess only time will tell, if this playerwanted change will just induce more flaming, remove the Nighthawk completely from PvP(due to priceincrease) or make the most interesting missiondesigns a tank-all-run-through. And to take something in advance: I do not want to sabotage the ship being boosted(Cald. CmdSh are the only ones I can fly), I just think it might be a step in exactly the most worse direction with consequences that weren¦t intended. Keeping the ship highly specialized would have been the better choice in my opinion. kindest regards, Skel

Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:21:00 - [481] Originally by: Ithildin Oh, FRACK. I almost forgot! Superweapon damage is fine, Tuxford! Just reduce the time-to-damage by 50% instead! The problem with Superweapons is not that it can't kill the heavily buffered battleships and command ships in one shot (this is actually a rather ridiculous idea!), the problem is that the non-buffered ships sized battlecruiser and larger has time to get away from the blast! Of course, neither the damage nor the time-to-damage change is going to alter the fact that it's useless against an aligned ship, but a non-aligned still battleship takes about 12 seconds to align and warp away. I believe the current Superweapon build-up time is 15 seconds - change this to 7 seconds. that and let a titan fit 2 superweapons so they can get the pods too --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:56:00 - [482] Does this mean ratts will defend better as well? As my main income is L4 missions, and i fly tempest with arties.....i see a problem ahead if these ratts will tank better. I got all basic gunnery at L5...a few at L4, about to start advanced...and im only able to kill the hardest BS after a long strugle....cause im doing poor dps.... I dont post this to whine....dont take me wrong..... But if the ratts will tank 50% better....ill just adapt and convert to caldari / Raven... Wont take me that long to get skills enough to do L4 missions in a Raven...as i got good basic and learning skills :D But i so much want to stay with my minnie guns....if its possible....cause i really like them :) So...anyone....will this boost on tanking be implemented on the ratts as well?
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:03:00 - [483] Originally by: Jones Maloy Originally by: Ithildin Oh, FRACK. I almost forgot! Superweapon damage is fine, Tuxford! Just reduce the time-to-damage by 50% instead! The problem with Superweapons is not that it can't kill the heavily buffered battleships and command ships in one shot (this is actually a rather ridiculous idea!), the problem is that the non-buffered ships sized battlecruiser and larger has time to get away from the blast! Of course, neither the damage nor the time-to-damage change is going to alter the fact that it's useless against an aligned ship, but a non-aligned still battleship takes about 12 seconds to align and warp away. I believe the current Superweapon build-up time is 15 seconds - change this to 7 seconds. that and let a titan fit 2 superweapons so they can get the pods too (Un)fortunately, the reactivation timer is a global timer on the player, not on the module. - What am I listening to?
Galen Silas Gallente Digital assassins	Posted - 2006.10.24 14:37:00 - [484] To the peoplecomplaining about pirates, get over it, i'm a pirate and i love it, and to the people who hunt pirates, your our favorite targets :)
John Blackthorn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.24 15:31:00 - [485] increase to extenders and plates is bad because it hurts small gang fights. Example lets say you have a 1v1 fight. Now you have twice as long to drive to the gate and warp or hit that ecm module and break there lock so that you can warp off. 5 vs 9 fight.. That b.s. that jumps into a gate camp with friends gets called primary will just drive back to the gate, wait to the last moment posisble and jump back thorugh the gate. That cruiser vs cruiser fight now takes 4 minutes which is now plenty enophe time for friends to arrive. -------- WCS change... I could live with the range penality but the resolution pentality is a bit much. I fly a recon personaly and I keep one wcs on so that I can warp off when I get outnumbered 10vs1 which seems to happen alot these days. ------- This is goign to encorage blobs and its goign to encorage even more people to do focus fire attacks.
TuRtLe HeAd The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:18:00 - [486] As long as Sentry guns get increased damage out put as well, Sentry tanking easy enough as it is in a BS. (The last 25% HP increase, The Guns still didn't do more damage.)
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:24:00 - [487] With the adapting of artilleries and nerfing of TII ammo along with the ECM changes the HP boost is starting to look like something I could enjoy. Maby the problem of cruisers being one vollied is solved and maby ceptors get a bit more survivabillitie. I still belive cap ships need more hp but then again its a step in the right direction for them The HP boost doesnt look that dark. and the 50% hp wount affect help coming in the northern regions becasue of the huge systems so hit and run is still viable. Maby down south it might be a little short time to kill anything. Now after artillery is done have a look at amarr pls :P
Telebrian Wraith	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:03:00 - [488] Everything sounds great except the WCS nerf. I think it's unnecessary - the only people who would like it are the PvP'ers and pirates who pray on those who aren't. PvP aside, it also makes things more a lot more difficult in certain agent missions where a lot of warp scrammage goes on by NPC ships.
Dupac Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.25 00:19:00 - [489] Originally by: Telebrian Wraith Everything sounds great except the WCS nerf. I think it's unnecessary - the only people who would like it are the PvP'ers and pirates who pray on those who aren't. PvP aside, it also makes things more a lot more difficult in certain agent missions where a lot of warp scrammage goes on by NPC ships. I used to ( a while back :) ) run a lot of lvl 4 missions - just kill the scramblers first and it's no problem. Considering the low risk and high rewards of mission running I don't see the problem tbh. It will add a bit of spice and there's no need to fit stabs to run missions.
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.25 02:48:00 - [490] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Jones Maloy that and let a titan fit 2 superweapons so they can get the pods too (Un)fortunately, the reactivation timer is a global timer on the player, not on the module. well, change that too --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec

Janey Cale Amarr	Posted - 2006.10.25 06:14:00 - [491] Originally by: Tuxford I've been replying to the forums today. I'm just gonna list some of the smaller tweaks and changes here. Ships Powergrid of Sacrilege, Deimos and Muninn increased to 1100MW, 950MW and 1100MW respectively CPU of Sacrilege and Deimos increased to 350tf for both ships CPU of Anathema, Helios and Cheetah increased to 280tf, 290tf and 275tf respectively bonus of covert ops ships changed so it reduces cpu need of covert ops cloaking device from 98% to 100% Agility of battlecruisers and command ships boosted by 20% Nighthawk's explosion velocity changed to launcher rate of fire bonus Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors I didn't really check it but I'll probably increase shield recharge rate by about 50% as well just to be on the safe side Modules Inertia stabilizers give decrease in mass as well as agility and give a penalty to signature radius Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 Super weapon damage increased by 50% as well Shield extenders and plates increased by 50% ECM changes - I'm blogging about that one, hopefully comes later today I think this all of the stuff that is not big enought to deserve its own post. Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later. I played this game VERY actively from August '05 to July '06 (won't say who I really am). I suspended my account do to a job relocation (no time to play). Recently, I created this account to see if I wanted to get back into things. From the looks of these changes (and others, like the ice mining changes), I am glad to see that I played the game back in its "hay-day". Deja Vu: SWG <a href="http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=413476" target="_blank">WCS Nerf</a> boycott low-sec.
Cycerin Strikebeam Gallente House of Tempers	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:07:00 - [492] Are we going to have to put plates on every single ship we fly again, now?
ZERO LIBERTY	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:11:00 - [493] A BIG thanks for ya efforts Tux !!
Tek'a Rain Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.10.25 20:25:00 - [494] then can I have your mystery account stuff, janey? bumpy patch of road right ahead, but ya roll over, ya move on, wheels keep turning. what else could ya do, stop? Blaque or Foiritan
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.10.25 21:22:00 - [495] Originally by: Janey Cale Originally by: Tuxford I've been replying to the forums today. I'm just gonna list some of the smaller tweaks and changes here. Ships Powergrid of Sacrilege, Deimos and Muninn increased to 1100MW, 950MW and 1100MW respectively CPU of Sacrilege and Deimos increased to 350tf for both ships CPU of Anathema, Helios and Cheetah increased to 280tf, 290tf and 275tf respectively bonus of covert ops ships changed so it reduces cpu need of covert ops cloaking device from 98% to 100% Agility of battlecruisers and command ships boosted by 20% Nighthawk's explosion velocity changed to launcher rate of fire bonus Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors I didn't really check it but I'll probably increase shield recharge rate by about 50% as well just to be on the safe side Modules Inertia stabilizers give decrease in mass as well as agility and give a penalty to signature radius Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 Super weapon damage increased by 50% as well Shield extenders and plates increased by 50% ECM changes - I'm blogging about that one, hopefully comes later today I think this all of the stuff that is not big enought to deserve its own post. Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later. I played this game VERY actively from August '05 to July '06 (won't say who I really am). I suspended my account do to a job relocation (no time to play). Recently, I created this account to see if I wanted to get back into things. From the looks of these changes (and others, like the ice mining changes), I am glad to see that I played the game back in its "hay-day". Deja Vu: SWG Yes, indeed. EVE is in wowification/NGE period (when it comes to balancing races in PVP) and the devs responsible for it do not seem to care. Their loss, more whine threads soonÖ to come; post-patch. Originally by: Tuxford Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums. NGE act 2.
Sara Finn Amarr Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr	Posted - 2006.10.25 21:48:00 - [496] Tux: May I make the following suggestions to offset the WCS changes for miners: -- Have the WCS penalties scale with diminishing returns exactly the same as the Sensor Booster, so these modules cancel each other out 1 for 1. -- +1 extra mid slot for all barges (both T1 and T2). -- 50% extra targetting range for all barges. -- 50% extra sig radius for all asteroids (assuming that they have radii). -- a small increase to PG/CPU for all barges. I think that will give miners a little more breathing room for low security mining and doesn't make the barges any more powerful than they already are.
Brem Watson Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.10.25 22:06:00 - [497] I'm diggin' the changes.
Elodos	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:02:00 - [498] Originally by: Tuxford I've been replying to the forums today. I'm just gonna list some of the smaller tweaks and changes here. Ships Powergrid of Sacrilege, Deimos and Muninn increased to 1100MW, 950MW and 1100MW respectively CPU of Sacrilege and Deimos increased to 350tf for both ships CPU of Anathema, Helios and Cheetah increased to 280tf, 290tf and 275tf respectively bonus of covert ops ships changed so it reduces cpu need of covert ops cloaking device from 98% to 100% Agility of battlecruisers and command ships boosted by 20% Nighthawk's explosion velocity changed to launcher rate of fire bonus Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors I didn't really check it but I'll probably increase shield recharge rate by about 50% as well just to be on the safe side Modules Inertia stabilizers give decrease in mass as well as agility and give a penalty to signature radius Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 Super weapon damage increased by 50% as well Shield extenders and plates increased by 50% ECM changes - I'm blogging about that one, hopefully comes later today I think this all of the stuff that is not big enought to deserve its own post. Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later. I am new to the game, so, while training the skills, I do some agent missions (0.7 system). this happened to me yesterday: first mish i pull send me to a 0.4 system. ok, I want to be safe, so I decline mish. pull another one, did-it. next one was another 0.4 system mish. I had the choice to do-it or decline the mish. if I decline (because it is in the 4 hours limit) I loose standings so it is not advisable. ok. accepted the mish. now, because of my safety (gate campers) I fit 2 stabs to be able to warp to mish location (giving up some damage mod and some tank). in the situation where the stabs have those mods on them .... I belive that it will be ... imposible to "enjoy" the game. any advice for this ?
Ibrich	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:51:00 - [499] Nooone will read this. But grid boost to deimos is too low. All it does is replace RCU with a PDS. Or let you fit a rig that increases grid usage. If you go with standard 5x ion, 1x nos, 1x mwd, 1x med rep setup.
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:52:00 - [500] Originally by: Ibrich Nooone will read this. But grid boost to deimos is too low. All it does is replace RCU with a PDS. Or let you fit a rig that increases grid usage. If you go with standard 5x ion, 1x nos, 1x mwd, 1x med rep setup. Darn it, wrong character.

Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:44:00 - [501] Originally by: Tek'a Rain bumpy patch of road right ahead, but ya roll over, ya move on, wheels keep turning. what else could ya do, stop? if it's a cliff? yeah, you stop. wcs -> nerfed. low sec ratting -> stealth nerfed. low sec mishing -> stealthed nerfed. low sec mining -> stealth nerfed. gate sniping -> uscathed. why do people always complain about gate snipers using stabs when no-one can even get within 20km to scram them in the first place? --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:15:00 - [502] Originally by: Jones Maloy Originally by: Tek'a Rain bumpy patch of road right ahead, but ya roll over, ya move on, wheels keep turning. what else could ya do, stop? if it's a cliff? yeah, you stop. wcs -> nerfed. low sec ratting -> stealth nerfed. low sec mishing -> stealthed nerfed. low sec mining -> stealth nerfed. gate sniping -> uscathed. why do people always complain about gate snipers using stabs when no-one can even get within 20km to scram them in the first place? I take it you've never seen 5 stealth bombers decloak on top of a sniper and rip him to shreds. Or watched as your fleet's covert pilot sneaks close to a sniper and allows the rest of the gang to warp in at 15 from the sniper. Or seen an interdictor decloak, drop a bubble and then WMD out and recloak before the sniper knows whats going on. In low sec, snipers could run too easily, they no longer can. Because that can't fit stabs and still be able to snipe. So now it's even easier to get them. As if it wasn't easy enough already. Sure, if you are solo you aren't going to be able to engage a sniper. But if you have a few friends, it's not even hard. And the best part is, most snipers think they are safe. Because most players think like you and don't bother to use the tools that are in the game. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:32:00 - [503] Very true. I will also point out that part of the reason you have difficulty dealing with the stabbed long range sniper is the fact that it takes so long to get to him due to the distance that needs to be traveled and the extreme difficulty of getting enough ships (and points of scram) on him before he exits. With the nerf, he will have to decide if he still wants to operate at extreme range but if a single covert or stealth ship jumps him with even one 20km scram he is stuck... or if he wants the protection of the WCS but ends up being much closer (easier to get to) and has to stay on station longer to aquire lock and actually do any damage. Choices like that are what this game is all about. Its just a pleasant side effect that now mission runners and miners will have to make similar decisions when they consider the particulars of what they are trying to do and where it is.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.10.27 23:51:00 - [504] Originally by: Elodos I am new to the game, so, while training the skills, I do some agent missions (0.7 system). this happened to me yesterday: first mish i pull send me to a 0.4 system. ok, I want to be safe, so I decline mish. pull another one, did-it. next one was another 0.4 system mish. I had the choice to do-it or decline the mish. if I decline (because it is in the 4 hours limit) I loose standings so it is not advisable. ok. accepted the mish. now, because of my safety (gate campers) I fit 2 stabs to be able to warp to mish location (giving up some damage mod and some tank). in the situation where the stabs have those mods on them .... I belive that it will be ... imposible to "enjoy" the game. A few things that make running missions in LowSec pretty safe without stabs, at least for now, from somebody whose done a lot of it and never yet fitted a stab: - Make gate>>gate and safe>>gate instas in each LowSec system in your constellation with a fast ship. - Monitor Local and get to know the natives. - Use your map (ships active, ships destroyed, pods destroyed) but don't rely on it. - Move away from the deadspace beacon and watch your overview when in a mission, particularly if the area isn't "up" or "down" from the system plane. I don't think probing out missions is common yet, but it happens. - If you're flying something big, consider having a high agility travel setup with your PvE modules at a station in each LowSec system. - Consider using a smaller, more agile ship for some missions. I had huge fun running L2s in a frigate though it wasn't easy. Intys tear through L2s, and AFs do nearly as well as Battlecruisers at L3s. Also maybe you know this already, but the 4 hour restriction is based on the time between refusals. So you could have done something else for a while and then refused that mission without a standings hit. That's one of the reasons people prize stations and systems with multiple good agents. Hope some of that helps. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2006.10.28 21:17:00 - [505] "Inertia stabilizers give decrease in mass as well as agility and give a penalty to signature radius" moooh... depends on the values though but considering we're sacrificing one of our biggest strengths (signature) for another lower one (speed), we frigate-preferring minnies don't really like the change. like shield extenders, it doesn't get us away from the general opinion "bigger == better" especially now, when the meager small turret damage is supposed to keep up with 50+% defenses: battles against armour tanks won't just last twice as long. instead the plain shield recharge rates throw us waaaay back
digitalwanderer Gallente The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.30 00:47:00 - [506] Edited by: digitalwanderer on 30/10/2006 00:50:29 Personally,i don't see any real problems with these changes,and this is coming from a char that does fly Amarr ships for the most part,since even with my Apoc fitted with 7 T2 mega beams,with a siege launcher and a Large armour rep with 4 hardeners and a plate,and only using the mids for 4 T2 cap rechargers,using all of those at the same time,i've never ran out of cap,ever.(stays at 40% constant in fact). The argument that they'll run out of cap is based solely that people have learned to rely on crutches,such as always having 2~3 extra damage mods fitted,even on ships that already give a rof or damage bonus to begin with,to get that fast kill,and avoid having to really train their gunnery skills high enough....Those are the only situations where cap issues on lasers can arise with the boost to HP... Can't really say anything about Arties,but i'd probably just increase the cargo bay on Minnie ships and add larger clip sizes for the guns,so there's less time wasted on reloading guns,and allows them to close in on the DOT of other comparable guns,and leave it at that.... The larger blob size argument to blow up ships isn't a convincing argument,since there's only so many that can be fielded on a fight anyhow,and most aliances don't have unlimited amounts of PvP players to commit a fight at any given time,even if the nodes could handle it without crashing...Not to say that ships won't get destroyed fast no matter what in large blobs,because they will,but the overall battle will last longer than it does now,and that's the whole point of the changes... The only difference is that each individual ship involved will sacrifice some range and overall damage,in order to make changes that allow for longer capacitor duration,no matter how long each ship actually ends up contributing to the overall battle...Missile ships still suck in larger fleet battles at longer ranges,despite the boosts to missile speeds,so they're not much of a factor in these types on engagements.
Hinik Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.30 17:01:00 - [507] Originally by: Digitix cry baby You're only saying this because you got an Eos print, if you had a Nighthawk print, like me, you wouldn't be complaining at all....
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.30 18:05:00 - [508] Quote: (Un)fortunately, the reactivation timer is a global timer on the player, not on the module. Really? So if you have 5 titan capable pilots and a titan they can just fire superweapon, jump out, next pilot hops in and fires again? That'd be really silly no?
KaMnEpo3o BENTUSI - Sons of Light	Posted - 2006.10.31 10:29:00 - [509] Originally by: Tuxford Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 Bad idea for mission runners
Maximalist Xenobytes Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.31 15:46:00 - [510] All carebears in EVE universe praising Tuxford On a serious side: 1. WCS nerf - pretty bad solution. It still leaves possibility to fit WCS and overcome penalty for ships that have "extra" mid slots (mostly recons and some battleships). If you really want to make armed and intended to shoot at somebody ships not to fit WCS's (WCS's are for travel and not for fight) make penalty for WCS's real. Something like 40-50% penalty on effectiveness of turrets/launchers/drones/smartbombs/EW-modules for first WCS, 64-75% for second and so on and so forth. Also, in this spirit, it would be very useful to make WCS's and warp scramblers "incompatible" to fit in one ship. Another good solution is to raise fitting constraints for WCS's. Make them consume more CPU, and everybody will be happy. Industrial and transport ships still be able to fit WCS's. Fit WCS's on a warship and be ready to give up on tank/turrets/launchers. 2. 50% added hitpoints as few stated in this topic before, will simply encourage more blobbing. 3. IMO 20% agility improvement for commandships with only 25% hitpoints increase for tech2 ships makes most (if not all) HAC's obsolete. Not that I have something against this, but it seems not good to simply throw away whole class of ships. With coming EW nerf all those changes looks as intended to greatly simplify PvP. You dont need any tacklers anymore (1 warp-scrambler on a battleship will be enough), so no need for support ships, no more variations in fit for ships, no variations in tactics, just field more battleships and be happy. Hope that new features of Kali will address those issues.

Janey Cale Amarr	Posted - 2006.11.01 05:07:00 - [511] Originally by: Maximalist Hope that new features of Kali will address those issues. Don't hold your breath... Apparently, CCP is going through a period of poor decisions right now. Hopefully, they can pull the nose up before it slams into the ground.
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:14:00 - [512] Originally by: Janey Cale Don't hold your breath... Apparently, CCP is going through a period of poor decisions right now. It's called "Tuxford".
Antaran Karsh	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:05:00 - [513] Originally by: Digitix cry baby You're only saying this because you got an Eos print, if you had a Nighthawk print, like me, you wouldn't be complaining at all.... Can I be your friend?
SonOTassadar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2006.11.02 21:19:00 - [514] Originally by: Maximalist 3. IMO 20% agility improvement for commandships with only 25% hitpoints increase for tech2 ships makes most (if not all) HAC's obsolete. Not that I have something against this, but it seems not good to simply throw away whole class of ships I didn't necessarily agree with your previous points, but I believe this statement to be just flat out wrong. Considering the extra time it takes to pilot command ships, there won't be as many people piloting them as there will be HACs. Hell, I know myself I love to fly an Assault Frigate because it's light, fast and has a high damage output for it's size, and it's a sturdy piece of equipment, to boot. If that wasn't the icing on the cake, they're relatively cheap to replace in comparison to HACs, Command Ships, or Faction Ships. This game isn't all about if your ship can do 8,000% more damage than another person's. If your ship can't track, target, or dampened to hell and back, that damage doesn't matter. T1 frigates, in large groups, are some of the meanest PvP setups I've ever seen, and I'd personally prefer myself and my corpmates flying them as opposed to AFs or HACs since they don't have such insane support skills to really get the most out of them, and not only that losing them hurts. Anyways, I digress. There's other ships in this game aside from HACs, just like there's other ships aside from Command Ships. The price of Command Ships is probably going to shoot up well past the price of HACs in the next 6 months, further deterring people from flying them, on top of their already horridly long training time. When I decided to either go for Capital Ships or a Command Ship, I looked at Evemon, and the training time for a command ship was shorter than a Carrier by a little over a week -- Command ships require insane amounts of patience, and even then, it will be another year before I can really output near-maximum damage and use gang assist module effectively, a module that people tend to avoid using in the BC class even though their role is specifically suited for it. ----- Griffin -- 100,000 ISK ECM - Multispectral Jammer Is -- 20,000 ISK Standar Missile Launcher Is -- 10,000 ISK War target sobbing over losing a fight in his T2 fitted Battleship -- priceless
Rigsta Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.11.03 22:27:00 - [515] Edited by: Rigsta on 03/11/2006 22:30:36 Originally by: Alex Tremayne RIP: Stabbabond. May you rot in hell. Amen. Originally by: pardux >_> geddon with 8x 1600mm tungsten = ~60k armor geddon with 8x 1600mm tungsten&slave set = ~90k armor fun fun fun \o/ And slower than a freighter with a turn rate roughly comparable with that of planet Earth XD Originally by: Jim McGregor I felt the disturbance... it was like a million voices suddenly stopped whining for a second. Unfortunantly it then continued.
Darksaber64x Ecchi co.	Posted - 2006.11.04 03:31:00 - [516] Originally by: Maximalist 1. WCS nerf - pretty bad solution. It still leaves possibility to fit WCS and overcome penalty for ships that have "extra" mid slots (mostly recons and some battleships). Sorry, I couldn't help it... "extra" mids... it's not like there are ANY other things that could fit in those mid slots... nope... I mean, webbers are useless, so are ABs, scrammers and ECMs are also equally pointless. I always have lots of empty mid slots, I can't think of anything to put in them!
Tehra Neru	Posted - 2006.11.08 11:09:00 - [517] Well you don't need WCS's really anymore when they will implement 'warp to stargate 0km' Hurraay...
Fitinzia	Posted - 2006.11.08 19:32:00 - [518] Hi weekend is long gone and the changes are still not there. Do you have any idea of when these are going to happen? Regards
Fitinzia	Posted - 2006.11.08 19:34:00 - [519] Originally by: Tuxford I've been replying to the forums today. I'm just gonna list some of the smaller tweaks and changes here. Ships Powergrid of Sacrilege, Deimos and Muninn increased to 1100MW, 950MW and 1100MW respectively CPU of Sacrilege and Deimos increased to 350tf for both ships CPU of Anathema, Helios and Cheetah increased to 280tf, 290tf and 275tf respectively bonus of covert ops ships changed so it reduces cpu need of covert ops cloaking device from 98% to 100% Agility of battlecruisers and command ships boosted by 20% Nighthawk's explosion velocity changed to launcher rate of fire bonus Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors I didn't really check it but I'll probably increase shield recharge rate by about 50% as well just to be on the safe side Modules Inertia stabilizers give decrease in mass as well as agility and give a penalty to signature radius Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1 Super weapon damage increased by 50% as well Shield extenders and plates increased by 50% ECM changes - I'm blogging about that one, hopefully comes later today I think this all of the stuff that is not big enought to deserve its own post. Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later. Hi, i mesnt these changes
Yoshi Takeda Caldari YoshiEmoo	Posted - 2006.11.11 17:00:00 - [520] Originally by: Popsikle ...... 1.) I hunt pirates, pirates use stabs, stabs make it hell to actually get pirates. 2.) If someone doesnt like the risk of low-sec, dont go there. Eve is not a game about being protected from combat all the time. Its a game based on risks, and the rewards that come with it. If you dont want to risk your ship, just down fly anywhere you can lose it. No need for stabs in .5+ right? 3.) Fitting a stab to escape from combat takes brains, and skill? How about avoiding the gatecamps, or using safe spots to ignore the pirates, ect. That takes some skill, not putting on stabs. 2) paartially wrong: Missions Lvl 4 have Scramblers also and those can give you a **** hard time specially when locked in a cage of Sentry guns and Destroyers dropping your amplified shields and hardened armor like a pieve of paper. Nonetheless - if "nerfed" - make the WCS and activation module on demand and not a perm one 3) if you could see gatecamps in advance it be a nice thing thus you can avoid them. Give me a scan other side of gate scanner - the map isn'r really a reliable thing there. But changes definitly aim at large group fights slimming chances for solo and small group players specially those not dedicated to piracy or blunt slaughter which is prefered by most of the so called "pirates" - I don't call it piracy. It takes time to get the players and we work hard on it - this will make it even harder and leaves but one choice turn Eve into a pirate collective over time. Well, why not remove industry at all and call it Gangs of New Eden.

Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.11.12 17:22:00 - [521] come kali, i'm not setting foot in low-sec. it will be a slaughterfest for any ship not using wcs. and those that do use it can't do anything but move around. plus they can still be scramed by 2 frigs unless they fit 4 wcs giving them 1/16th of their base range. can you rat or mish in a cruiser with a max targeting range of 2.5km? wcs has been nerfed, as in made totaly useless and inefective. those moduals are nothing more than scrap-metal now. the risk:reward ratio has skyrocketed making low-sec an unprofitable place to be. expect less people in low-sec than there are now. with the major changes, instability of the server, and general lack of common sense i am tempted to walk away from eve. --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec
Jeanpierre Duvall Caldari Spectral Armada Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:17:00 - [522] What is all this whining about a WCS nerf. I haven't used WCS in a long time and I have lived in lowsec all that time. hardly lost a ship. I fly lvl 4 missions with lots of scrambling frigs and I hardly lose a ship. What do you ppl whine about. There is no need what so ever for a WCS other then on a Hauler and I don't even use them there. Just dare to lose a few ships to learn how to fly in space without WCS and you see. It's safer then with a friggin WCS on. WCS use a lowslot that you can accually use for something good for your ship. I'd also say that why not give the WCS a real nerf. -25% cap. They are as useless as bulkheads anyway.
April Knox Caldari Trinity Nova	Posted - 2006.11.17 01:22:00 - [523] Edited by: April Knox on 17/11/2006 01:25:02 Originally by: Tuxford Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors Has CCP thought about Stealth Bombers that rely on Alpha Strike and don't profit at all from their unexistant tanking capabilities? The opinions expressed here are my own, and in no way they represent Trinity Nova's.
Tadis Gallente 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:20:00 - [524] /me loves Tuxford. I hope your best intentions turn out good :) I still think the stab should be nerfed more though, reducing your offensive power directly. Although hopefully with dictors becoming essential in Kali (due to the warp to 0k option) then stabs will become obselete anyway, although I suspect some with persevere with them in a PvP context, rather than just travel. ___________________________________
1 Up	Posted - 2006.11.20 18:52:00 - [525] Hi, I am an old player of eve and i can fly all races of ships and types and use all weapon types of tech 1, so I have a very good idea of the current balance of all ships and weapons and races. I think alot of positive things will come from this patch Tuxford, it will makes the game alot more enjoyable and fun, leaving less to lag and giving the player more time to think. I would say however, that it is crucial that you do not overlook the small things that will be massively affected by these changes. Every ship and every gun type will need to be looked at to ensure balance and usefulness. Personally i feel NOSFURATU dominates the game already, but with your changes, you MUST also increase capacitor amount and capacitor recharge, otherwise Nos will become VERY powerful. Amarr will be very underpowered with longer combat without more cap to last out the battle. Minmatar will need to have a new role given to them to replace the loss of Sniping role. Caldari passive tanks will be very overpowered now Galante drone ships need more drone space because with longer fights, killing all their drones becomes very easily achievable. I know i can't spell :P this is my view, but just my view.
Neckbone Minmatar	Posted - 2006.11.22 06:30:00 - [526] How was the person early in the thread coming up with 45 shields/sec peak regen on a Jaguar. I keep doing the math, and with 704 base shields (25% more) & 625 base regen (25% increase), plus 2x T2 Med Ext (1260 each if it's 50% increase), AND you fit 3x Shield Power Relay (20% recharge boost, each)... That's 42 shields/sec, peak. However, you can't FIT that. You have to downgrade to 2x Power Diags & 1x SPR, which peaks at around 33 shield/sec peak. Course I had to peel the afterburner off for that, so I don't know how useful that is, either. Fitting a single Med Ext II, plus Afterburner, webber, and Passive KN T2 amp, with 3x SPR I came up to 25 shields/sec, a small boost from the 22 shields/sec I get now. Granted that's before implants, so there's a small improvement still. Looking at my Rifter (pretty much identical fitting, minus the T2 KN Resist) there's no change whatsoever in my passive shield regen. 18.77 peak in both cases (since everything was boosted 50% it makes sense). T2 ships passive tanked get a small boost from the 50% extenders, but nothing else is changing on my Jag. Really curious where the 45 shield/s peak comes from. 33 is the best I got, and like I said, that was sans AB & Webber.
1 Up	Posted - 2006.11.22 06:44:00 - [527] Don't forget to add 50% to the extender, before adding 50% to the shields. Also don't forget about hardwire implants that may help you fit the modules and boost your shield.
Neckbone Minmatar	Posted - 2006.11.22 15:15:00 - [528] Edited by: Neckbone on 22/11/2006 15:16:14 Originally by: 1 Up Don't forget to add 50% to the extender, before adding 50% to the shields. Also don't forget about hardwire implants that may help you fit the modules and boost your shield. I boosted the base shields from 563 to 704 (rounding up), and the base recharge from 500 to 625, and boosted the T2 Med Ext from 840 to 1260. With Shield Operation, Management, and Upgrades at 5, plus a Gnome K?A 2000 for -5% shield PG need, +5% shield HP, and +5% shield recharge (the other two Gnomes--shield emmission & turret cpu--don't affect this fitting) I come up to 28 shield/s peak, up from 25 shield/s. (ShieldHP = 2577 btw) That's with this fitting: HI: 3x 150mm 'Scout' AC, 1x Arbalest Rocket MID: 1x Cold-Gas AB, 1x Fleeting Web, 1x T2 Passive KN Amp, 1x T2 Med Ext LO: 3x Shield Power Relay In order to fit a second extender, I need to strip the SPR's for PDS's. Even with 3 of them, I still can't fit another T2 Med Ext on there. If I strip off all the weapons, it still won't fit. Leaving the weapons on (recommended) and peeling off the Afterburner (or MWD) and going with 2x PDS & 1x SPR, it will fit, barely. 4576 shieldHP, and 37 shield/sec peak regen. Still not 45. This is also an assault frigate with no propulsion upgrades. That seems like a fair trade to me. It's just a lump of shields flying around, waiting to be killed. I guess it will be pretty fun in PVE? I wouldn't be able to stand it, with a max effective weapon range of about 6 km, I'll stick with my 27 shields/sec, only slightly better than the 25 I can field now. (Though I have the 3% implants, myself.)
Yolanda Antarez	Posted - 2006.11.24 09:21:00 - [529] How about Freighters They could use some tweeks - ie high, med and low slots... Do they get a look in with the update?
Pariah Pyralis Gallente Thundercats	Posted - 2006.11.25 03:59:00 - [530] Its good to see HP boosting however the question remains. How will will this affect POS defense as capital ships now have 400% increase in HP. Meaning a couple of them could quite easily take out a POS. Or are pos' getting an increase in HP also? As it stands basically the HP of the capital ship is more than a large POS? Croz

Estrago	Posted - 2006.11.25 23:03:00 - [531] My favorite PVP fit is completely screwed over now. I normally solo PVP in a raven with 6 Siege IIs loaded with Inferno Jav Torps and the others in my cargo, 1 20KM Scram, 1 Sensor booster II, 4 Multispec ECM IIs, 2 stabs, and 3 BCU IIs. Let me see, the Siege IIs are now useless, the ECMs are now useless, and the stabs are now useless. So I have no firepower, no defense, and I can't run when people outnumber me. Were you specificly trying to screw me over when you came up with these nerfs? Makes sense as no petition I've ever submited has ever been granted, someone must hate me. I do love the Rokh, Hyperion, and Drake though and my Rook and Falcon will be a lot more effective now. I'm tempted to train for a Nighthawk now that it's damage is actually better than the Cerb. Warp to 0 will help a lot as I hate copying bookmarks. 8 new regions will help a lot as it's starting to get crowded in 0.0. Constant fighting I like, but it gives me no chance to make ISK and our miners have to sit in the station half the time.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.26 02:45:00 - [532] Originally by: Estrago My favorite PVP fit is completely screwed over now. I normally solo PVP in a raven with 6 Siege IIs loaded with Inferno Jav Torps and the others in my cargo, 1 20KM Scram, 1 Sensor booster II, 4 Multispec ECM IIs, 2 stabs, and 3 BCU IIs. Let me see, the Siege IIs are now useless, the ECMs are now useless, and the stabs are now useless. So I have no firepower, no defense, and I can't run when people outnumber me. Were you specificly trying to screw me over when you came up with these nerfs? Makes sense as no petition I've ever submited has ever been granted, someone must hate me. I do love the Rokh, Hyperion, and Drake though and my Rook and Falcon will be a lot more effective now. I'm tempted to train for a Nighthawk now that it's damage is actually better than the Cerb. Warp to 0 will help a lot as I hate copying bookmarks. 8 new regions will help a lot as it's starting to get crowded in 0.0. Constant fighting I like, but it gives me no chance to make ISK and our miners have to sit in the station half the time. hmm. sounds like all you need to do is refit your ship? now that your targets will be able to defend THEMselves, you can drop the ECM and sensor booster for a tank. uh, no more sensor booster? guess you better drop those wcs and learn to lose your ships like anyone else... hmm what else... ok, you sieges dont work on everything from intys to cap ships? yeah, that is a problem, how about cruise missiles? you may need to actually get a teammate in the massive MULTIPLAYER online game to tackle for you. web your target or whatnot. last i checked the 20k scram and 3 BCU IIs should still work fine have a nice day
Jovius Marginus Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.29 05:21:00 - [533] Revelations is here. Dear Tux, Why doesnt the Nighthawk have its rof bonus? Would you consider giving the Eagle a 5th Turret point pls?
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.29 08:59:00 - [534] Originally by: Jovius Marginus Revelations is here. Dear Tux, Why doesnt the Nighthawk have its rof bonus? Would you consider giving the Eagle a 5th Turret point pls? It's only missing from the description. Eagle would deserve another turret, though. ---
hezitationkillz Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.29 13:18:00 - [535] Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: Estrago My favorite PVP fit is completely screwed over now. I normally solo PVP in a raven with 6 Siege IIs loaded with Inferno Jav Torps and the others in my cargo, 1 20KM Scram, 1 Sensor booster II, 4 Multispec ECM IIs, 2 stabs, and 3 BCU IIs. Let me see, the Siege IIs are now useless, the ECMs are now useless, and the stabs are now useless. So I have no firepower, no defense, and I can't run when people outnumber me. Were you specificly trying to screw me over when you came up with these nerfs? Makes sense as no petition I've ever submited has ever been granted, someone must hate me. I do love the Rokh, Hyperion, and Drake though and my Rook and Falcon will be a lot more effective now. I'm tempted to train for a Nighthawk now that it's damage is actually better than the Cerb. Warp to 0 will help a lot as I hate copying bookmarks. 8 new regions will help a lot as it's starting to get crowded in 0.0. Constant fighting I like, but it gives me no chance to make ISK and our miners have to sit in the station half the time. hmm. sounds like all you need to do is refit your ship? now that your targets will be able to defend THEMselves, you can drop the ECM and sensor booster for a tank. uh, no more sensor booster? guess you better drop those wcs and learn to lose your ships like anyone else... hmm what else... ok, you sieges dont work on everything from intys to cap ships? yeah, that is a problem, how about cruise missiles? you may need to actually get a teammate in the massive MULTIPLAYER online game to tackle for you. web your target or whatnot. last i checked the 20k scram and 3 BCU IIs should still work fine have a nice day Well said Hank... And how someone could post that setup without thinking to themselves 'wait, maybe if i post my unbelieveably lame setup people will flame me?' Your favourite PvP setup? did it go something like this: lock, JAMJAMJAMJAM, SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM, support ohnoes (wait WCS's save me again) WINWINWIN! Oh, and the part about 'someone must hate me.' that would be me, nuff said ______________________
Krows Caldari Unified Refining Federation	Posted - 2006.11.30 05:31:00 - [536] I have to ask now... what should I do as minmatar now that I've apparently loss my snipingrole? I'm serious, I really need help with this because I'm considering just switching to Gallente despite my love for Minmatar equipment and range. I once supported the Caldari Nation, held their flag high in my hand and kissed the ground of my homeworld. That's done, I see now the horrors of the world; the wrongs committed by putting the dol
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.11.30 16:59:00 - [537] Don't bother moving to Gallente unless you enjoy punishment. ----------------------------------------------- "It's great playing Caldari Online, isn't it?" by Xori Ruscuv
Aramis Rosicrux Gallente Ordo Rosa Crux Templaris	Posted - 2006.11.30 23:54:00 - [538] Originally by: Jovius Marginus Revelations is here. Dear Tux, Why doesnt the Nighthawk have its rof bonus? Would you consider giving the Eagle a 5th Turret point pls? Someone replied that it was only missing from the description, but I tested a Ferox with Malkuth Heavy Launcher then moved that same launcher to a Nighthawk and got the same rate of fire. Tuxford, I know you have a lot to do, but could you please verify that the bonus is happening? Thanks a lot. By the way, good job. Sure. we won some, we lost some, but overall the ship balancing seems to have gone well. In particular, God Bless you for fixing the stealth bombers!!! That really needed doing. They still are weak as hell but at least you can get six cruise missles launched before it goes boom. Humility is the hallmark of honorable character. Aramis Rosicrux
ShadowlordUK	Posted - 2006.12.01 11:23:00 - [539] Originally by: Telebrian Wraith Everything sounds great except the WCS nerf. I think it's unnecessary - the only people who would like it are the PvP'ers and pirates who pray on those who aren't. PvP aside, it also makes things more a lot more difficult in certain agent missions where a lot of warp scrammage goes on by NPC ships. The biggest users of stabs in combat are the pirates themselves.... Its a great thing tbh, no more stabbed up vagabonds ftw. :-)
Marcuis Caldari M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:32:00 - [540] Hey Tuxford, You probley got alot of messages complaining about the ew on the caldri ships, I dont know what you guys was thinkin about you need to fix it for the scorp, rook , falcon, BB as the jammin isnt strong anymore you have taken the Jammin (ew) from caldri ships you need change it.. either back way it was and only have the 5 caldri ships with ew allow have jammers or put like a 20% bonus to strenth per lvl skill also whats the go with heavy assault laucnhers only havin range of 15km if you elite skills if u dont your lucky to get 9km range with them to me thats abit stupid if they ment to be heavy assault laucnhers and ship with a 20km point on you can orbit at 15km and have you down, they need to beable reach atlest 25km range.....

kaufmann Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:21:00 - [541] EW - Changes makes me cry, if they are true.... I have several tungsten-plated scorps for the soon coming Lag-Battles and cant jam S*** with them ????? Pls Tuxford, this time you MUST react sooner then after 2 years. Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected])
Cythrawl Caldari Central Defiance Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.06 18:45:00 - [542] Edited by: Cythrawl on 06/12/2006 18:48:24 Originally by: kaufmann EW - Changes makes me cry, if they are true.... I have several tungsten-plated scorps for the soon coming Lag-Battles and cant jam S*** with them ????? Pls Tuxford, this time you MUST react sooner then after 2 years. Made alot of posts about this sorta stuff here lately. I agree totally with him about fixes. Right now the only 2 ships that get the same or better jam rates are the Rook and the Blackbird. But you have to have Caldari Crusier/Recon to 5 to even get the rate back up to top with the highest named low slot mods and 2 of the t1 rigs. Another bone of contention, the Blackbird bonus is on the cruiser level and the Falcon and Rook are both bonused from the Recon Skill. That kinda gimps the strength right out when you have to have recon 3 to pass the Blackbird on the Rook and Recon 5 to equal it on the Falcon. Right now the Blackbird is the only decently balanced of all the ecm ships. Possibly the Griffin too. Scorpion is crapped out considering it was supposed to be able to hold down firepower from other battleships and provide a small tide change in war. Currently it's got pretty much the same power potential of the blackbird and at a much longer time training overall. Cost/benefit ratio without the ECM bonus being tweaked is considerably low towards the Scorpion again since it had a bonus pre-Revelations. 20% bonus on the Scorpion and the Falcon and a 25% bonus on the Rook would actually put them into a fighting chance of having the skills enough to be on par with their roles pre-Revelations without having to sacrifice every low slot and rig spot for ecm strength mods to fly the ships. The only reason I say give the Rook more jamming strength is the fact that out of the two recons, it's actually got to go toe-to-toe with combatants since it can't use the covert ops cloak. Slapping a prototype cloak on there would just gimp the setup completely considering the recalibration times. Oh, and the Recon ships? Maybe get their bonuses from the Caldari Cruiser skill and not their Recon skill, since they're sort of pre-training nerfed and almost pointless when you get them at first without the bonuses. Might as well fly Blackbirds since you've got the cruiser skill to 5 already. And as for the Griffin, it deserved the nerf considering what it was doing before the patch to battleship pilots. It's fine for frigs and cruisers now, just where it needs to be. P.S. Before anybody says anything, I'm an ECM pilot. Don't be alarmed that I'm actually looking at the maths and not screaming about everything being completely borked. =+=+=+=+=+=+= Time to go with a more... Honest, sig.
Almarez	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:06:00 - [543] Tux, I don't need any specifics but are there any plans at all to help out Amarr issues and if so do you have a time frame?
Marcuis Caldari M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.12 11:37:00 - [544] TUXXXXXX, Yes I agree with what Cythrawl said in his post but series you have turn the tide for caldri ew pilots, as sensor dampherin and turret distruptors dont have any worries .... there is no reason havin a scorp ew now as the BB does the same as Scorp does, as it is the BB, scrop are paper thin not far behind it is the rook and falcon, the ecm doesnt stand a chance anymore compare to turret distruptor and sensor dampherin put 3 sensor dampherin on a BB or scorp and you take them out of the fight and since the rook has range of 250km you would need more to dampherin it, you series need to look at this and fix it quickly
Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.12 18:43:00 - [545] Give us back all our dedicated ECM ships!!!!!
Blind Picard	Posted - 2006.12.21 12:36:00 - [546] This is about scanning:) Tuxx please read and reply if is possible. Thanks in advance. Today i made a gang with my alt wich was running a mission. I warped to my alt raven and i made a safespot near him , under 1AU. After that i leaved gang with my scanner alt and i tried to scan my raven wich as i said it was under 1 au. I tried at least 20 times and nothing. Please ballance this scanning system, at least in 0.0 systems. Maybe i wrong but where is the risk of a 0.0 system for this mission runners?
Archilies Elite United Corp Antigo Dominion	Posted - 2006.12.27 07:06:00 - [547] Originally by: Alchimista Give us back all our dedicated ECM ships!!!!! what he said. While ECM's may have been a bit overpowered before [yes im biased] theyv been completely wacked now. Just make the EW ships worthwhile to have at least. With a scorpion you need to sacrafice alot of your tank to get stronger jammers and even they arent decent. Recruitment Thread


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