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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 24 post(s) |
Transit One
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Posted - 2006.11.08 10:08:00 -
[301]
Edited by: Transit One on 08/11/2006 10:11:13 Wow. I put 5 m SP into leadership, to find out that I can no longer give my bonuses to the whole gang, just the subset I command. Would have been better off having 2 chars do 2.5m.
Looks like these changes mean gang skills are LESS useful to specialise in, but more essential for more people to have.
FORGET RELEASING KALI. until you have this FIXED. Leave gangs as they are unless you can get all this working. ATM it's hard enough organising gangs with one person issuing the invites, let alone it having to be a specific person if you want the bonses to keep working.
By all means, play with this crap. But let more people give invites, and make the bonuses independently work for the whole fleet (even if each section has to be 'active')
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Dunpeal Hunter
Momentum.
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Posted - 2006.11.08 10:49:00 -
[302]
WTF WTF WTF WTF THIS IS GREAT
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Eewec Ourbyni
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.08 11:39:00 -
[303]
So, the mission, should anyone who wants to run a gang or not wishes to accept it, is just what is the best way to load out a maximum of 3 characters so that the 9 folks who benefit from those 3 can get the best bonus' possible for a good fleet op. Rememberering that each group of 9 currently needs to have a medic so they can actively look for someone to heal rather than just relying on someone calling out in time.
So, what should a Fleet Commander have in ships/skills/mods/implants to best support all of the 255 folks under them.
Ditto for the Wing Commander for the 50 folks under them, and ditto again for the Gang Commander for the 9 folks under them.
EDIT: umm sorry that was the mathmatician in me getting it wrong, commanders don't get a bonus from other commanders. So it's the 9 folks under Gang Commander which I got right, but the Wing Commander only benefits the grunts in the gangs under them so that cuts it from 50 to 45 folks and the Fleet Commander only benefits the maximum of 225 grunts under them not the 30 commanders also under them if I've read the dev posts correctly. (Well they benefit themselves but not other commanders).
So... how to load up those three tiers with skills/mods/implants/ships to best effect.... hmmmm.... and how badly is the overall effect a nerf compared to what we are used too?
This is a sig...
-- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio --
... good, ain't it! |
Galimiy Portret
Eye of God Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.08 11:39:00 -
[304]
Originally by: TomB Gang Bonuses & Server Performance Yes, it is supposed to improve server performance in fleet combat.
Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders We have been considering the ability for Squadron Commanders to reassign their role of boosting the Squadron to another Squadrom Members. It's not trivial how ever and we are to close to release for this to happen now.
Broadcast Role This is something we have been considering to counter the Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders; Squadron Commander could assign broadcast roles to a Squadron Member. It's much easier for us to do, but still can't promise that it will get done for Kali.
Well, thank you very much for the reply. It shows that devs are discerning roughly the same set of problems as the player base does. (I mean, wtf, FC in a commandship on frontline primaried) Explanation is, as usual, the developement resource prioritisation which there are never enough of. Well, it should get better with time. Have you considered a customizable UI so that some of the workload could be lifted by the playerbase?
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Tundaar
Minmatar Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.08 11:42:00 -
[305]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz If it is too difficult for you to code efficiently, then here's a simple solution: Just let the gang leader manually pick which player to be used as the "highest" gang bonus for each gang module. The commander knows who is the best, and if he doesn't, then oh well. Sometimes humans are the answer to your coding woes. Shamis[/quote
It seems in this thread that the primary point of contention is that the Command Position and the Logistics bonus are linked in one person.
Question to Developers: Can there be two positions assignable within a Gang - Commander and Logistics Support? (could be one person)
This would eliminate the majority of complaints registered here about wasted SP and too much of a gangs functionality being invested in one person. It would allow a commander to focus on leading and controlling a battle using the new functionality while the Gang bonus could come from the designated Logistics Officer.
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Lojik
FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 11:54:00 -
[306]
I'm glad IÆm Training as a Logistics specialist now
Thnx Tomb you just made my life about 300% more efficient,
Two Questions:
The changes you proposed a few posts back about making logistics a bit easier, when do you think you would be looking at them closer?
Also is there any chance of a mid range logistics ship in-between the cruisers and the carriers, maybe a BC or even a BS size logistics ship.
Lojik
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:00:00 -
[307]
Edited by: James Duar on 08/11/2006 12:15:22
Originally by: Tundaar
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
If it is too difficult for you to code efficiently, then here's a simple solution: Just let the gang leader manually pick which player to be used as the "highest" gang bonus for each gang module. The commander knows who is the best, and if he doesn't, then oh well. Sometimes humans are the answer to your coding woes. Shamis
It seems in this thread that the primary point of contention is that the Command Position and the Logistics bonus are linked in one person.
Question to Developers: Can there be two positions assignable within a Gang - Commander and Logistics Support? (could be one person)
This would eliminate the majority of complaints registered here about wasted SP and too much of a gangs functionality being invested in one person. It would allow a commander to focus on leading and controlling a battle using the new functionality while the Gang bonus could come from the designated Logistics Officer.
This makes infinitely more sense since it makes putting a gang together simpler. An FC starts it, calls out for logistics and chucks them into right tiers to support people. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one! |
Sir Juri
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:08:00 -
[308]
Originally by: TomB Gang Bonuses & Server Performance Yes, it is supposed to improve server performance in fleet combat.
Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders We have been considering the ability for Squadron Commanders to reassign their role of boosting the Squadron to another Squadrom Members. It's not trivial how ever and we are to close to release for this to happen now.
Broadcast Role This is something we have been considering to counter the Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders; Squadron Commander could assign broadcast roles to a Squadron Member. It's much easier for us to do, but still can't promise that it will get done for Kali.
hope it makes out with first release.
**** need to make a new sig... |
Parallax Error
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:27:00 -
[309]
Originally by: TomB
Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders We have been considering the ability for Squadron Commanders to reassign their role of boosting the Squadron to another Squadrom Members. It's not trivial how ever and we are to close to release for this to happen now.
So only at a squadron level then? I feel cheated quite frankly, the whole *gang assist* line has been changed in actual gameplay use by a very large margin from what I originally trained.
What your saying is we might be allowed to boost 10 people without taking a front line command role but anymore than that and you definitely have to be there at the front?
Command Ships aren't actually that well suited to being on the front lines in any reasonable sized conflict, especially modern fleet battles which can take place from 150km upwards. Now they are going to have zero survivability because not only can you knockout the gang assist modules but you can knock out the command chain at the same time.
I can understand the need to reduce lag in larger scale engagements but why do you feel the need to try and shoe horn highly specialised areas into roles which the ships are ill equipped? And why are you punishing the people making these massive skill point commitments by completely moving the goal posts on their functionality?
Can CCP at least admit they've not really thought this through properly? The logistics is further proof of this, new broadcasts to aid the use of logistics modules but you still don't have any concrete plans to go hand in hand with them. Net result is that logistics modules are still utterly useless on the front line of any reasonable sized engagement.
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Solarienne
Caldari Steel Frontier Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:37:00 -
[310]
Loving the Blog and the changes, it pretty much matches what my corp has been anticipating, and we are thrilled (high propoertion of charisma heavy FC characters ftw!). Looks like I will finally have a reason to fly my Eos, Info warfare is becoming useful with the ecm nerf as any edge is an edge using ECM ;), and the ability to lead huge gangs benefitting from uber gang skills, while actually hacving to protect the FC rather then just having him parade around in a HAC, is awesome.
Great work, can;t wait to start having proper fleet battles.
For all those whiners saying 'OMG I cannot make big gang waaaa!' remember you could if you are into complete blob warfare, create TWO fleets and just have them co-operating (unless, I hope, there is a mechanic stopping this). So don't worry, Goon warfare is not out of the question yet
Gang bonusses relying on REAL fleet commanders rock!
Solarienne out
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Xurx
Minmatar Flemish Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:07:00 -
[311]
Quote: It nerfs carriers and command ships hard since it forces them to be commanders for the gang bonus's to apply but this doesn't work normally because well carriers sit in safe/pos away from battle and command useually do that same or are support killers since they do not have the ablity to work at the ranges that battles happen.
That raises another question tho....why is a ship (carrier), able to do damage (assigning drones), and not be in any harm ?(sitting at a ss/pos)
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:08:00 -
[312]
Hmm on re-reading the blog it looks like you'll still be able to make gang assist boosts work from safespots within a system, but currently the cost appears to be the ability to actually lead i.e. warp gang around the place. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one! |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:28:00 -
[313]
Originally by: Xurx
Quote: It nerfs carriers and command ships hard since it forces them to be commanders for the gang bonus's to apply but this doesn't work normally because well carriers sit in safe/pos away from battle and command useually do that same or are support killers since they do not have the ablity to work at the ranges that battles happen.
That raises another question tho....why is a ship (carrier), able to do damage (assigning drones), and not be in any harm ?(sitting at a ss/pos)
It's good to realize that scan probing is getting a huge boost in Kali. Safespots will be a lot less safe, finding big ships like a carrier will be ultrafast for a competent covops pilot (we're talking 20-30 seconds here). In the worst case, the carrier won't even have time to align for a jump to the next safespot before it gets a covops-led gang on top of it.
POS will still work, of course.
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:39:00 -
[314]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Dunno, that sounds like real-life warfare to me. If the commanding officer is killed, there is a mad scramble to figure out who is next in line to command.
Whose military were you in? --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Donna Darko
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:39:00 -
[315]
Do these new broadcast messages mean that we have to go through some weirdo hoops and loops like it's always the case with EVE's interface? For example, to choose "Warp to me":
- right-click your ship in space or the HUD
- move mouse to sub-menu "Pilot"
- move mouse to sub-menu "Broadcast"
- move mouse to sub-menu "Navigation"
- click on item "Warp to me"
Or will it be something usable through keyboard shortcuts, a la Counter Strike/whatever? Stories. |
marcouk2
Gallente Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:45:00 -
[316]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Dunno, that sounds like real-life warfare to me. If the commanding officer is killed, there is a mad scramble to figure out who is next in line to command.
Whose military were you in?
dunno but must also be one where the CO sits on the frontline with a big banner saying 'I am the Commander'
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:55:00 -
[317]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Dunno, that sounds like real-life warfare to me. If the commanding officer is killed, there is a mad scramble to figure out who is next in line to command.
Whose military were you in?
Well, I was thinking of an in-combat situation, where things are hectic and information flow is often... lacking. Sure, you have your chain of command, but if the commander is suddenly killed there will always be some delay before everyone figures out who is the highest-ranking officer still alive after the attack that took out the "FC". For a short while, the low-level command is on its own until the brass realigns itself.
And a year in the Finnish military, if you want to know.
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Garramon
Gallente Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2006.11.08 14:14:00 -
[318]
I really cannot find this in any way not a GIGANTIC nerf to those that trained gang-boosting skills.
Let's look at what we have trained (rough times): Leadership 5 - 5 days Information Warfare 5 - 10 days Information Warfare Specialist 5 - 28 days Squadron Command 5 - 32 days Cybernetics 5 - 14 days Battlecruiser 5 - 30 days Command Ships 5 - 38 days
That is about 6 months of training just for the level 5 skills on top of what I already had. Now you are telling me that not only do I have to train 80 days more worth of skills for it to apply on the same scope as it currently does (to your whole group), that it will only work for those on grid with me and I won't even get the bonuses?
Are you out of your frickin mind?
For some reason the fact that ~50% of the people replying to the thread fail to read and understand the point of the OP is hilarious.
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Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem.
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Posted - 2006.11.08 14:30:00 -
[319]
When drones were nerfed, they were also boosted once you trained all the new skills. When missiles were nerfed, they were also boosted once you trained all the new skills.
When gangs were nerfed, they were just nerfed.
I like the new _system_ but I do not like the requirement to train skills to get back LESS than we have now. This change helps lag, but takes away from the players so CCP should be compensating us, not adding new skills to train...
Training a skill just to use a 'feature' of the game (fleet heirachy) is kind of lame. I bet you did not introduce any VOIP skill.
Beyond that. #1 Enemies should not know who the FC/WC/SC is, so this idea about the C being primary is a joke. If you are calling a tanked Claymore as primary, your going to be pounding for a while just to remove a few gang bonuses...
#2 the Cmdr will likely be an "executive assistant" to the real Cmdr who is giving the real commands on Vent/TS. So the killing the F/W/S Cmdr is even more questionable.
#3 The FC logs and the fleet is hosed? Thats no different than today. If the FC logs today, I reevaluate if I want to stick around and follow whoever the new commander is. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
MIstress Saki
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Posted - 2006.11.08 15:08:00 -
[320]
The main problem is that there is no valid command ship at the moment. As may mention the current command ships are not designed to fight battles over how much? 50 km. This is crazy. In almost all fiction and in reality the Fleet commander sits on the biggest ship. And esp. in EVE with the ôinsta-popö this is more important. What EVE need is a Dreadnought like Command ship able to absorb huge amount of damage. A ship which can survive at the front line! The current command ships are in fleet battles nothing more than flying coffins that even cannot shot back. The new fleet command system might be very good and innovative but when there are no real command ships available, its point less.
Proposal: Bring out a new capital command ship or boost the carriers.
Also there must be other command ships for each ship class. A squadron of frigates which is lead by a BC?! I think this make no sense. BC leading cruisers are ok.
Proposal: bring out a command ship (frigate of destroyer) for leading frigates. Maybe also for BS.
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Jet Collins
Dynamic Endeavors
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Posted - 2006.11.08 15:11:00 -
[321]
Edited by: Jet Collins on 08/11/2006 15:12:37 Now these changes where made to cut down the lag in Fleet battles. The way to do this was to make it hard to have the large Fleets correct? IE less pilots less Lag? Or is it less bonuses less lag?
The reson why I bring this up is to my other post about how I am not very happy with the changes.
Anyway so with the new changes the only way to get all the gang bonuse that you can get in a gang curretnly is to be the bottom man of a very large Fleet. IE bottom person will get multilpe Gang bonuses from Fleet commander/wing Commander/Squadron commander. Now assume that each of those people are flying the 3 different racial Fleet command ships. Under new system the person at the bottom can get a total of 9 differnt bonuses. Fleet command 3 Wing Command his 3 + Fleet commanders 3 Squardon Commander 3 + 3 from wing 3 from Fleet.
Now also in a gang like that there will most likly be many other people. Current system a gang could get all those bonuses from just 3 people.
So how is this helping lag if you need a crap load of people just to get the bonuses you can get now with just 3 people and get more bonuses with just 4 people.
Now its not so bad if you can set up a gang of just 3 people as long as those 3 have the skills, if One person be Fleet one be wing and than the last, which is the only person that is getting all bonuses.
This new system seems to be promoting larger gangs, but at the same time making it very diffucult to fly a large gang because of skills.
I think the Skills are great, the nerf to bonuse not so great and not seeing the point unless it is the bonuses causing lag and not the shear number of players in the gangs.
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Zing Ashuwanik
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Posted - 2006.11.08 15:16:00 -
[322]
Originally by: Zarch AlDain
You do not see that a 3*N problem is significently easier to deal with and scale than an n squared problem?
They will have already saved a lot of work by not displaying everyone's health to everyone else. That is just a precursor to my saying:
Allow gangmods to effect your squad, as well as the top-down arrangement that is in the current implementation. Then instead of a fleet of 200 making 200*199 checks, you have a fleet of 200 making 10*11 (10 members each checking their 9 squad mates [which includes their SC], their WC, and their FC) in each of the 20 squads. So 2220 checks. Still more than the 3*N (600 in this case), but far far less than the existing 200*199 (~ 39k).
[My apologies if this has already been said, read most of the thread and forgot the majority of it]
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Vala Draaken
Gallente Madhatters Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.08 15:54:00 -
[323]
Originally by: TomB ... but as I said the skeleton allows us to improve the gang mechanic easily so you will see it in future updates.
Everyone, please try to remember that these changes are only a temporary stage between Kali patches, as TomB said.
Hope that calms some of you down a little,
Vala D.
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Garia666
Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 16:02:00 -
[324]
( refferring to the way gang bonusses work with evenmore extra skilz )
I thinks its very sad that DEVs make such changes without notifying before hand. Yeah put some more skillz in.. More skilz more Moneh ..
Force people to be something they dont want to be but have to do because they have the skilz and equipment.
You just push it to your members there troath ..
->My Vids<- |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.08 16:21:00 -
[325]
Originally by: Garia666
I thinks its very sad that DEVs make such changes without notifying before hand. Yeah put some more skillz in.. More skilz more Moneh ..
Force people to be something they dont want to be but have to do because they have the skilz and equipment.
You just push it to your members there troath ..
What do you think this is, other than advance notification?
Or did you mean that the players should get to decide how everything works? It's not a democracy.
And it's "skills". No idea what "there troath" is, but it sounds nasty.
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.11.08 17:07:00 -
[326]
Erm, one question...
Why does everyone keep saying the commander needs to be in the same grid?
All I see in the dev blog is that he needs to be in the same SYSTEM, undocked, and not in a pod.
That's the same as current gangs (except maybe for the pod/docked part - not sure about that).
Zarch AlDain
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.11.08 17:11:00 -
[327]
Originally by: Zing Ashuwanik
Originally by: Zarch AlDain
You do not see that a 3*N problem is significently easier to deal with and scale than an n squared problem?
They will have already saved a lot of work by not displaying everyone's health to everyone else. That is just a precursor to my saying:
Allow gangmods to effect your squad, as well as the top-down arrangement that is in the current implementation. Then instead of a fleet of 200 making 200*199 checks, you have a fleet of 200 making 10*11 (10 members each checking their 9 squad mates [which includes their SC], their WC, and their FC) in each of the 20 squads. So 2220 checks. Still more than the 3*N (600 in this case), but far far less than the existing 200*199 (~ 39k).
[My apologies if this has already been said, read most of the thread and forgot the majority of it]
That seems like a pretty good suggestion actually. Each squad member could boost the other members of his squad - but to affect more than 10 people he would need to be a wing/fleet commander.
It lets small gangs function how they currently do, it reduces the amount of comms, and it still gives some advantage for training the fleet commanders up as they can apply their bonus to more people.
Zarch AlDain
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Mordechai Grey
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2006.11.08 17:22:00 -
[328]
As a long time mechwarrior/battletech player, the first thing I realized looking at this, is that "Headhunting" is going to become a real risk for leaders now. Corporations are going to use battle recordings, scouts, spies and other intel gathering means to determine who is the FC, WC, ect for their enemy and if smart they are going to rip out the leadership asap to drop gang bonuses. From a game standpoint it makes sense, you would be able to use your sensors to determine the nexus of communication traffic and react accordingly.
Now if only we could get improved point defense systems and have them interlinked through the command net. :)
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Argonaught GR
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Posted - 2006.11.08 17:25:00 -
[329]
Actualy, the gang bonus are very simple now.
Nobody has to train spec skills, as it will not be that smart to be in a command ship -the only command ship- at the front line.
Everybody should train the basic leadership skills as they may find themshelves in a leading position at any time, so it will be nice to give some bonus to the squad. Especialy if the squad leader shows up in a BC class, hes not going to survive the first engagement. Training the basic leadership is not that hard.
Actualy it will be like it was before the introduction of the command ships and the gang assist modules. If you had spend time training skills especialy for that (as I did)... well, better luck next time.
A forward step that leads back... Is this some kind of dance?
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Mordechai Grey
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2006.11.08 17:37:00 -
[330]
Originally by: Argonaught GR
Nobody has to train spec skills, as it will not be that smart to be in a command ship -the only command ship- at the front line.
Survivability and these changes really make me think we'll see a T2 dedicated BS and/or Dread class command ship in the future. Or a hell of a lot of logistics keeping proximity to the FC.
"I wish to have no Connection with any Ship that does not Sail fast for I intend to go in harm's way."-Captain John Paul Jones, |
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