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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 24 post(s) |
James Duar
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.08 07:36:00 -
[271]
This whole thing is far too convoluted. I say completely rid the skill requirements for this altogether - they're retarded, and make no sense gameplay-wise.
Re: support skills, I'm failing to see how as they are currently can be causing so much overhead. Gang forms - support skills get put into a list, list gets summed, effects are applied to all. When a ship dies, the list is checked to see if it's on it, and an update is done to the entire gang. There is no "each ship checks every other ship" behavior necessary here.
I really don't see how this is an O(n^2) problem. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one! |
Kerules Yor
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Posted - 2006.11.08 07:46:00 -
[272]
Edited by: Kerules Yor on 08/11/2006 07:54:34
Originally by: James Duar I really don't see how this is an O(n^2) problem.
I imagine the overhead comes from having to keep the bonuses updated in real time, and the dominant bonus can change at any time if someone levels up in the middle of a fight, or warfare link mods turned on or off. Basically the "list" needs to resorted every time any number of things happen. I don't know if it's n^2, might be only n*logn, but it's frequent.
edit: Oh, updating the health bars of everyone in gang to everyone else in gang is n^2... But so is updating everyone's ship position to everyone else. I dunno man.
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TomB
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:02:00 -
[273]
Originally by: Mr Ninjaface TomB you added all the board cast stuff etc (i need cap armor/shield) The current targeting system makes cap transfers sheild transfers hard during battle if you have say a cap transfer on your apoc but you also have 7 turrets. You then have to lock you friend and cap transfer him then in the heat of the battle remember not to start shooting the crap out of him because hes locked. Can we have a sperate locking system for gang mates on that you cant activate hostile modules on unless you specify that you want to do so or something.
We want logistic modules to be easier in use, there are a couple of ideas:
- Targeting gang members requires 0 seconds. - Logistic modules ain't target modules, they get a curser when left-clicked and instantly activated when a target has been selected. - Something else
But can't promise anything for Kali.
TomB Lead Designer EVE Online . |
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SengH
Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:04:00 -
[274]
Okay after fooling around with it on test. Heres how it works as of the build on sisi today.
You can create 5 wings/5squads each and fill it with as many people as you want without having the requisite skills. I created 5 wings with 5 squads each (total of 25 squads) with just wing command 1.
However If you want the gang bonuses to apply you need the people in the requisite places to commute the gang bonuses. For the individual pilot to get gang bonuses that the fleet commander is applying. The following people must be undocked and in system fleet, wing and squadron commander. You can promote people to squadron commander/wing commander without having the prerequsite skills. However you lose the ability to commute the gang bonuses down that chain.
---------------------------------------- Back for a month cus Awu5 finished..... |
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TomB
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:04:00 -
[275]
Originally by: EvilNate zomg!! This stuff is really so fracking cool.
I have a question about the new gang system that doesn't relate to pvp at all.
Currently in pretty much any MMORPG, when a player does a mission/quest/whatever, he is able to share that mission/quest/whatever with another player. That player can the recieve a split of the LP and standings gains too.
Any chance we will see this implemented any time in the next 2837492874 years?
Nate
That will happen in next update, we are throwing people into it who will be focusing on the agent/mission system. Improve it, tie it up with other mechanics and make it good, instead of so that it's not good, which is bad.
TomB Lead Designer EVE Online . |
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TomB
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:06:00 -
[276]
Originally by: Mongo Smith Thanks for the prompt responses TomB.
Not sure if its been mentioned before or not, one feature that would be useful would be the ability to rename each wing/fleet/squadron to aid in the organisation.
That's one of the features that might not be coming in with Kali, but as I said the skeleton allows us to improve the gang mechanic easily so you will see it in future updates.
TomB Lead Designer EVE Online . |
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SengH
Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:08:00 -
[277]
errh tomb you should have shown them the ability to break the wing out from the overview. That might have cooled tempers a bit. Also about compartmentalization of information. Is that a possibility of going in before kali? The average guy in the squad doesnt need to to know who the fleet commander at the top is. ---------------------------------------- Back for a month cus Awu5 finished..... |
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TomB
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:15:00 -
[278]
Originally by: Miranda Duvall Edited by: Miranda Duvall on 07/11/2006 16:53:37 Would it be possible to get a skill rename? Just for clarity..
As it stands now:
you can command a fleet: Fleet Command you can command a wing: Wing Command you can command a squadron: Leadership you are very good with gang modules: Squadron Command
Please change it into: Current "Leadership" becomes "Squadron Command" Current "Squadron Command" becomes "Warfare Link Specialist"
All the names then actually reflect what they do, keeping the current "Squadron Command" as is will generate a lot of confusion, and if you're ever going to change it, now is the time, since it's all new to all of us anyway.
The existing Squadron Command skill has already been renamed, the Leadership skill will how ever keep the name for now. Reason being voice recordings, translations, text editing in multiple locations and whole lot of other things.
TomB Lead Designer EVE Online . |
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Hardin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:18:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Derran What kind of commander leads a fleet when he doesn't even know what is going on? You are an RP'r, right? *suspicious look*
Roleplay wise Hardin has always taken a back seat to the combat to let his sister Siobhan do the pew pew. Hardin is, as you probably know, a high charisma character and as such is job has always been a desk jockey back room commander while Siobhan lays on the holy smackdown.
Now you should know me well enough to know that I will adapt and live with whatever changes do come in. However, this doesn't mean that I cannot point out some obvious flaws in the proposed approach in the hope that they get fixed before implementation.
My original concerns still stand.
What was/is the point spending 6 to 9 months training gang, battlecruiser & command ship skills, purchasing a mindlink and liasing with other members in the alliance to ensure that we specialise in different aspects of gang suppoort when apparently the bonuses of only one gang memember will apply across the whole fleet? So what is the point of having more than one Command Ship per fleet apart from redundancy in the event that the mmain fleet commander is wasted/disconnected? Now maybe I am misunderstanding how this works so TomB please correct me if I am wrong
On top of this Command Ships now have to lead the fleet into battle in order that their bonuses apply. Now, while command ships have good resists and tank, they simply don't have the capacity to survive being called primary - which is what will happen in each and every fleet battle. Yes there are ways around it i.e. having the fleet commander warp in 100km behind the fleet or to a prearranged (in grid) spot prior to battle commencing but this just seems like an unnecessary complication and delay to to getting action started.
You could say fair enough about all of this, but when you view the price of command ships, the cost of their modules, the cost of the mindlink implant and then add the HUGE training requirement to fly and operate all of the above I am not sure what incentive people will have to train for command ships when they have just had a huge bullseye painted onto them?
People trained for gang/command ships to give gang bonuses to their gang mates, in the same way that some people specialise in EW, others in Inties, others focus on damage etc. Now we are being told that as a result of that choice we have to be frontline PvPers/Commanders (even if the real command still happens through vent).
Anyway as I said above I will live with this and deal with it if it comes in - I do after all only train Amarr ships/weapons (how's that for roleplay Mr. Minmatar Thanatos pilot) so I have in effect already nerfed myself.
However, I would still like CCP to look at the gang stuff more closely before it is implemented as it simply seems to messy to me. Just my opinion - don't shoot me...
------------------------------ Blog's back - for now
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Hathi
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:22:00 -
[280]
OK, some (possibly) useful changes to big fleet/blob combat.
Any chance of the old gangs working as they do now for smaller numbers, ie 10-20 players. Some of us would quite like to run mining ops/missions without needing to set-up multiple layers of leadership just to get a boost to the ships. Not at though we've already spent 3+ months skilling for gang ASSIST modules already...... Atleast when you "balance" things normally they still work, and don't suddenly become next-to-useless. |
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TomB
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:52:00 -
[281]
Originally by: Zarch AlDain
Originally by: marcouk2
Originally by: Fi T'Zeh Someone might already have asked this, but wtf happens if my Fleet commander CTD's / lags out ?
you prob have to spend the next 20mins reinviting everybody
That was answered already by TomB.
The fleet structure will stay in place but gang bonusses will not work until someone is promoted to take the fleet commanders place.
It seems odd if it removes everyones bonusses though since you would still expect squad leaders to give their bonus to their squad even though everyone loses the fleet commander's bonus.
If the Fleet Commander has a CTD or a BSOD or throws his mouse at the wall and it falls on the on/off button of the power strip and the PC shuts down; then you will always have a (boss) who has the same roles as the fleet commander but not a commander, he can promote a new fleet commander.
We were also working on auto-promote feature but it's complicated and might get cut for Kali.
On bonuses: Wing and Squad Commanders will continue giving bonuses as their groups are still active, the only change will be that the Fleet Commander stops giving bonuses.
TomB Lead Designer EVE Online . |
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Boogey Trollias
FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:57:00 -
[282]
It was about time to nerf the last fun part of eve - gangs that go roaming in moments notice.
It suits rest of eve much better, that after someone suggests forming up a gang <to do something> it takes hour or two to get everything sorted out. Tho during all that sorting most of the people log out anyways, so why go roaming, it just takes precious server resources..
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:02:00 -
[283]
The problem is, we're going to have to live through this before it gets changed back to something useful. I don't have this reaction often, but this is looking like one of the changes to which there is no "adapt" mechanic - you just die.
I'd like to hear an explanation as to how gang bonuses get applied on the server now, compared to how this will save server time and reduce lag.
At the very least, the bonus givers should be independent of the squad leaders. And to make this work at all anyway, there has to be some way to actually protect ships in fleet combat from being called primary if they're going to have to be on the frontlines.
I can't help but think this whole thing doesn't seem very well thought out. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one! |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:12:00 -
[284]
Originally by: Admentus Cor'vion
Biggest problem is "Hey, lets pile 3 months of skills to characters who wish to command gangs".
Hmmm.
Unless you're talking about gangs of over 40 people, it's a training time of max 12-13 days even if you're starting from scratch. Assuming you're not a charisma 3-5 twink, in which case you do lose (and can blame yourself).
For bigger gangs/fleets, yes, the training time will be longish, you need Wing Commander V which is rank 8... so that's what, 40 days extra about? So for 50 people you'd need something like 50+ days, starting from scratch.
After that it speeds up for a while, because with Fleet Command III (quick to train even though it's rank 12 or something) you get 150 people (3 wings).
So you'd actually need those 3 months if you wanted to lead fleets of 200-250 people. How many people really need to do that?
I suspect the quick-to-train-for max 40 people fleet is big enough for a vast majority of situations. If you really need huge 200+ person fleets, then yes, you need someone to train for many months in order to be an FC.
And remember, you can still *form* those fleets without any skills. The training req only applies if you want to have someone give gang bonuses to the whole fleet -- which is a big thing when we're talking about 200+ people being boosted.
So yes, this is a slight nerf to the gang modules. It also makes sense, the old system of parking a command ship / carrier in a safespot and having it boost 200+ people with no effort was idiotic.
Also remember: this will affect everyone. It's not like you're the only ones having to train this; if you train this and your enemies don't, you'll have the edge.
Sure, big alliances who are used to easily boosting everyone in a mega-gang will scream, wail and gnash their teeth (witness this forum and the one in the Kali dev section with the Goon whinefest ). That's to be expected.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:14:00 -
[285]
Originally by: James Duar The problem is, we're going to have to live through this before it gets changed back to something useful. I don't have this reaction often, but this is looking like one of the changes to which there is no "adapt" mechanic - you just die.
Lay off the hyperbole, it's bad for your health.
If you suddenly "just die" because you don't get gang bonuses for the few weeks someone trains up the skills, then you have problems that are no way related to this change....
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Jocca Quinn
Matari BackBone
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:16:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Miranda Duvall Edited by: Miranda Duvall on 07/11/2006 16:53:37 Would it be possible to get a skill rename? Just for clarity..
As it stands now:
you can command a fleet: Fleet Command you can command a wing: Wing Command you can command a squadron: Leadership you are very good with gang modules: Squadron Command
Please change it into: Current "Leadership" becomes "Squadron Command" Current "Squadron Command" becomes "Warfare Link Specialist"
All the names then actually reflect what they do, keeping the current "Squadron Command" as is will generate a lot of confusion, and if you're ever going to change it, now is the time, since it's all new to all of us anyway.
Thats a good point, things are going to be confusing enough without misleading skill titles, and its not the first time they have been renamed. Escort Tactics anyone.
JQ
none of us are free as long as one of us is chained none of us are free |
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TomB
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:16:00 -
[287]
Gang Bonuses & Server Performance Yes, it is supposed to improve server performance in fleet combat.
Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders We have been considering the ability for Squadron Commanders to reassign their role of boosting the Squadron to another Squadrom Members. It's not trivial how ever and we are to close to release for this to happen now.
Broadcast Role This is something we have been considering to counter the Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders; Squadron Commander could assign broadcast roles to a Squadron Member. It's much easier for us to do, but still can't promise that it will get done for Kali.
TomB Lead Designer EVE Online . |
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:17:00 -
[288]
Why is not being there, when the skill is Armor boosting, not make sense?
This is EVE. We have FTL communications everywhere. Why can a module which is basically a dedicated co-processor to the pod pilot not provide the same support from at least the same system?
Well, I could invent some reasons, but I think my main issue is simply that there's no Line Of Sight or anything like that in the game, and so what we've got is a system where all the single command ships go down first, and then you've got a mad scramble to keep promoting people to even try and keep it working, in the midst of a fight.
If the issues with no type of LoS at all in a fleet battle were fixed, then this would not be so bad because you have a chance to screen and protect smaller ships with bigger ships etc. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one! |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:25:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Eewec Ourbyni [ It's more the complete and total lack of any cross bonus'. Before you got the bonus your gang mates gave out and they got yours. Now normal "rank and file" pilots only get the bouns' from possibly three people in their chain of command. That means that small gangs are up the creak right there. Are you honestly trying to tell me that in a lowsec gang of 10 people only 1 person was giving out any bonus to the gang? So it's not just the new leadership skills the fleet/wing/gang commander needs to train, but also all of the other bonus' they wish their fleet/wing/gang to have. That's a lot of training.
I realize that. But also keep in mind that everyone is in the same boat. It's not like you get hit by this and your enemies don't. In effect, it's a uniform reduction of bonuses for everyone, which won't have any effect in your warfare. Assuming it's pvp you're talking about, it will of course have some effect for ratting and mining gangs in the beginning.
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Eewec Ourbyni
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:26:00 -
[290]
Edited by: Eewec Ourbyni on 08/11/2006 09:31:42 Edited by: Eewec Ourbyni on 08/11/2006 09:27:00
Originally by: Alex Harumichi The amount of whining from people here who are shocked and dismayed that Leadership skills and Command ships suddenly will start applying to, you know, "leadership" and "command", is quite amusing.
Need more popcorn.
That would be because up till now it wasn't needed to get CCP to split those skills up into better named groups so they were Command, Leadership and Support... notice the complete lack of any group called support, then look at the skill descriptions and notice how many mention the role of support rather than leadership or command. Up to this change this syntactic error in the skill groupings wasn't important, now it is, so now you get the complaints about it.
Also, those 31 command positions in a total fleet (once you get a fleet commmander that can handle that many command positions) are the only people whose mods/ships/skills/implant gang bonus' are going to work for their segment of the fleet. This is going to take some serious testing just to find out if it's even possible to get the required mixture of all of those into the limited slots available and still have ships that are viable in PvP/NPC ratting etc. Yet CCP look to be wanting to push this to live quickly... so is there going to be enough time to actually test it all....
This is a sig...
-- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio --
... good, ain't it! |
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Boogey Trollias
FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:28:00 -
[291]
Edited by: Boogey Trollias on 08/11/2006 09:31:40
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
So you'd actually need those 3 months if you wanted to lead fleets of 200-250 people. How many people really need to do that?
Almost everyone in a bigger alliance whom fleet commmands even occasionally will need to read skills rather far. And in addition to that you will have to read lots of skills for gang bonuses and command ships AND in addition to that having any level of leadership in fleet hierarcy makes it basicly impossible to go afking.
"AFKing you ask? You shouldn't be AFKing while in fleet."
That's a pile of crap. Alliance operations involve a lot of operations that last for 12+ hours and plenty of people are practicly forced to go AFKing sometime during. Now that your wife comes screaming or baby drops out of the bed you'll just have to stay clued to computer as you just cannot easily pass leadership position to someone else.
Alliance gangs just become a micromanagement hell. Previously I tought I'll read these skills, but hell no, no ******* way I'm forcing myself to be in a position of FC 23/7 clued to computer. I'm not even that good of an FC, but being online and having skills, I'd just have to take the job.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:28:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Eewec Ourbyni
Originally by: Alex Harumichi The amount of whining from people here who are shocked and dismayed that Leadership skills and Command ships suddenly will start applying to, you know, "leadership" and "command", is quite amusing.
Need more popcorn.
That would be because up toill now it wasn't needed to get CCP to slit those skills up into better named groups so they were Command, Leadership and Support... notice the complete lack of any group called support, then look at the skill descriptions and notice how many mention the role of support rather than leadership or command. Up to this change this syntactic error in the skill groupings wasn't important, now it is, so now you get the complaints about it.
Yeah. I was just making light fun of peoples' extreme reactions there, I do realize why they are complaining of course. Well, some of them at least.
I personally see this as bringing much more good than bad, but it will be a huge change.
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Treelox
Amarr Solar Storm Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:31:00 -
[293]
Originally by: TomB Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders We have been considering the ability for Squadron Commanders to reassign their role of boosting the Squadron to another Squadrom Members. It's not trivial how ever and we are to close to release for this to happen now.
Hopefully you mean for squadron, wing and fleet commanders. How could you guys been considering this option and not realised that the one thats on SISI right now would not stir a hornets nest up? --
Signature edited - this is your last warning - Jacques |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:32:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Boogey Trollias
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
So you'd actually need those 3 months if you wanted to lead fleets of 200-250 people. How many people really need to do that?
Almost everyone in a bigger alliance whom fleet commmands even occasionally. And in addition to that you will have to read lots of skills for gang bonuses and command ships AND in addition to that having any level of leadership in fleet hierarcy makes it basicly impossible to go afking.
Ok, fair enough. I don't really have an anwer to that, other than either use multiple smaller fleet and coordinate via TS or train up the new skills. Both have their own problems, of course, and as you note, you'd need multiple people with FC skills to be able to switch roles while you go AFK (or go link dead, or whatever).
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:34:00 -
[295]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 08/11/2006 09:23:42
Originally by: James Duar ...so what we've got is a system where all the single command ships go down first, and then you've got a mad scramble to keep promoting people to even try and keep it working, in the midst of a fight.
Dunno, that sounds like real-life warfare to me. If the commanding officer is killed, there is a mad scramble to figure out who is next in line to command.
Real-life comparisons are always dangerous, of course, but that makes total sense to me. And brings a new strategic element to EVE warfare, which is good imho. Now FCs will have to decide whether enemy commanders, EW ships or something else get called primary first. Choices choices.
Added: it would be nice to have an automatic promotion list in the game, of course. So that if the FC is killed, there would automatically be a second-in-command who would become FC.
I think auto-promote is simply a must, if only for lag reasons.
Incidentally, I wasn't implying I'd die from not getting gang bonuses, I said that the change didn't seem like one where we'd adapt and get used to it and find some new type of awesome at all - usually I can see that though maybe I think something different should happen. This...this I can't see that for.
Anyway, regarding the real life comparison - well it wasn't one there. I mean, if the real fleet commander dies in a battle, you do have a problem in battle because they're not on the front line anymore giving directions. But we've got, on top of that, this added mechanic that bonus giving doesn't work. It seems more akin to having the medic leading the squad of troops.
I can't help but think that what's going to happen here is, a whole bunch of people with command ship/bonus abilities will be made leaders, and Teamspeak will be used so someone else is actually driving - OR - the whole logistics/gang-assist aspect will disappear entirely since they'll always die within seconds in a fight. I think the latter is much more likely. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one! |
Jerusalem Man
Farmers Union
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:43:00 -
[296]
Originally by: TomB
We were also working on auto-promote feature but it's complicated and might get cut for Kali. ... Gang Bonuses & Server Performance Yes, it is supposed to improve server performance in fleet combat.
Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders We have been considering the ability for Squadron Commanders to reassign their role of boosting the Squadron to another Squadrom Members. It's not trivial how ever and we are to close to release for this to happen now.
Broadcast Role This is something we have been considering to counter the Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders; Squadron Commander could assign broadcast roles to a Squadron Member. It's much easier for us to do, but still can't promise that it will get done for Kali.
A æCommanderÆ and a æSupport/LogisticsÆ role would fix the major drawbacks of the squadron system.
A 2IC role for each position would allow for instant promotion and it would be good if the Support 2IC bonuses applied in an area if the 1IC wasn't active. This would have several benefits ie operating as 2 teams in separate areas, maintaining bonuses when moving between areas etc.
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:46:00 -
[297]
Originally by: MOOstradamus Edited by: MOOstradamus on 07/11/2006 17:55:31
/me wonders what has happened to the Squadron Command skill on Sing ..
Not only is it unavailable to buy but its missing from my Characte Sheet too
*EDIT: nevermind Squadron Command has been renamed to Warfare Link Specialist *
so the "Squadron Command" skill that people have trained up for warfare links, will not be the skill to enable the commanding of squads in Kali?
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:51:00 -
[298]
Originally by: FireFoxx80
so the "Squadron Command" skill that people have trained up for warfare links, will not be the skill to enable the commanding of squads in Kali?
No. Had you actually read the dev blog, or even TomB's comments on the previous page, you'd know that the skill is the good ol' Leadership. Yes, it's a bit confusing, but (as TomB noted on the previous fricking page), they can't rename it right now for technical/resource reasons.
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:57:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: FireFoxx80
so the "Squadron Command" skill that people have trained up for warfare links, will not be the skill to enable the commanding of squads in Kali?
No. Had you actually read the dev blog, or even TomB's comments on the previous page, you'd know that the skill is the good ol' Leadership. Yes, it's a bit confusing, but (as TomB noted on the previous fricking page), they can't rename it right now for technical/resource reasons.
My bad. The hierarchy thing is a little mushy.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.08 10:00:00 -
[300]
Originally by: FireFoxx80
My bad. The hierarchy thing is a little mushy.
Agreed.
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