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Bloggers #41, TomB's new epic, Gangs of New Eden

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 24 post(s)
ChronoLynx Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2006.11.09 18:55:00 - [361] <sarcasm> Yippie! Gang skills are now completly useless! Woot! </sarcasm> <rant> I trained 2 months of leadership skills to have them turned completly inert? Arg... I love the new gang system but I hate the fact that leadership skills will no longer take effect unless you are a FC, WC, or SC... just lame... and I am sure more people have trained many more months then I and waisted time in the leadership skills far longer then I... most of them may never be allowed to be the FC WC or SC... </rant> <rabble> RabbleRabbleRabbleRabbleRabbleRabbleRabbleRabble... (continue rabbling... till CCP ends rabble with right tag) Elitest Carebear with Fangs and Claws
Pah Triac Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.11.09 19:00:00 - [362] Edited by: Pah Triac on 09/11/2006 19:01:12 Originally by: Rafein Originally by: Pah Triac i just see that there will be 31 Fleet command ships active iff the whole of the fleet likes to have the full bonus applied with a maximum of 3x3 maxxed out bonuses and 3 bonusses on the boss that are not maxxed out with ship/mindlink bonus Correct, but at the squadron stage, there you really only give bonuses to 10 people, so it's kinda pointless to bring a Command ship at the squadron level. I can see tier 2 BC's used here, just for one extra leadership module. Which still gives you 7 gang modules, out of a possible 15. Which is fine. Like fittings, there shoud be choices, not entire gangs getitng every bonus dunno how or what but i did not see any command module bonus on those ships on the test server, so unknown iff they will apear with such stuff. its just too bad that there will be no member in the fleet that will receive 4x maxxed out bonusses. Your local friendly Ammatar * People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true. *
Treelox Amarr Solar Storm Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.09 19:14:00 - [363] Edited by: Treelox on 09/11/2006 19:17:47 We might aswell stop posting our outrage with the new gang bonuses system, we already got TomB's answer to changing it to something else. Originally by: TomB No. Besides we havent seen gold bars here in 2 days, so I am guessing once again they dont care and are just going to continue on as they will. Implementing that they acknowledge as a bandaid that they will fix sometime later. We all know how well they come back and fix things....... So either TomB is off enjoying fanfest and HOPEFULLY being cornered by other players expressing their outrage, or we are all getting the shaft. Now bend over and get ready to take it like a man, im betting there is some more great stuff coming down the pipe. NOT!!! P.S. Can i now have a dev or GM switch out 5 or 6 of my base CHA points for something useful that I will use, say like INT or MEM. -- Signature edited - this is your last warning - Jacques
xenorx 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.09 19:15:00 - [364] Well first of all I am so glad I didnt waste time on gang skills. They are about to become as useful as laser skills. Overall,I do like the structure of the fleet but I am really worried about the UI. As it stands now we are cluttered to hell and back with all the chat windows, overview, drones ect over our screen. Pretty soon we will not be about to actually see the space around us at all. I guess what Im saying is that it is going to become total sensory overloaded with to much information. No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Mordechai Grey Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:37:00 - [365] Originally by: xenorx Pretty soon we will not be about to actually see the space around us at all. I guess what Im saying is that it is going to become total sensory overloaded with to much information. It's kinda like how they had to retrain the propjocks and early jet pilots when they switched to computerized heads up displays. The old timers were so used to visually scanning for targets they neglected the radar screen. Sure it was more efficient to use the electronics, but push button warfare loses mystique points to eyes on the bogey dogfighting. "I wish to have no Connection with any Ship that does not Sail fast for I intend to go in harm's way."-Captain John Paul Jones,
Slash Harnet Minmatar Industrial Services INC	Posted - 2006.11.09 23:30:00 - [366] This is a great starting point and I'm sure it will get fleshed out and refined with the 'other' kali's. My question, if it hasn't been asked, is there a way to tell who the leader is from the outside looking in?
Eriv Kendri Caldari Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.11.09 23:39:00 - [367] Boohoo - you cant easily park your afk command ship at a sspot now and run your 6 gang mods with impunity. How bizzare of CCP to want leadership skills and leadership modules to actually be associated with the leaders. -------
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.10 00:04:00 - [368] Originally by: Eriv Kendri Boohoo - you cant easily park your afk command ship at a sspot now and run your 6 gang mods with impunity. How bizzare of CCP to want leadership skills and leadership modules to actually be associated with the leaders. Ok, first of all, yes you can and this is almost exactly what will happen. You just can't properly have someone else lead the actual gang since all the leadership abilities get tied up with boosting skills. Second of all - new scanning. My god new scanning. SS gang boosting should get harder anyway with new scanning and actually serve to reduce the size of fleet battles since you need to go hunt down those boosting ships. Third of all: in what EVE have you been playing where any ship that does something useful for the entire squad is not going to be called primary and die within seconds? Hell, with the new abilities, conceivably it'll be really easy to guarantee everyone knows which ship to call primary. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
ChronoLynx Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2006.11.10 06:14:00 - [369] rabblerabble Elitest Carebear with Fangs and Claws
Mindlles 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.10 07:46:00 - [370] After cool downed abit i make a new post. Eve is a hard pvp game, why why always make it easyer?. The easyer it get, the more blobbish it will be. As atm the diffrent between a disiplined fleet with guys know who to look and how to act in the field. Is the diffrent between win and loss. If u even have the game show u wich once to lock it makes it to easy :/ I do think u want to make eve abit to easy, Offcurse this is not the only thing. But defently something that did it for me to feel omg,, why bother with this game.. As with this new change it doesnt matther if ur fleet is a big and good pvp force that know how to act. Or a big bunch off carebears that have just tryed to blob up to max to fight u. As for today, u can blob up if u like, But if the servers can handle the lagg. Alot smaller force can destroy the fleet becouse they know what to do. And do we not want to keep it that way, or are we all supposed to be toghter in big blobs and not bother to learn to play this game good? What do u say about that tomb?
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.10 08:09:00 - [371] I don't see how what you're saying relates to the change. The change is going to make simple blobbing up really hard. The argument is that it's not actually making fleet fights better so much as just making them more complicated to run effectively. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
Mindlles 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.10 08:35:00 - [372] Originally by: James Duar I don't see how what you're saying relates to the change. The change is going to make simple blobbing up really hard. The argument is that it's not actually making fleet fights better so much as just making them more complicated to run effectively. Sry if my english is failing me this morning Basicly u get to see what the commander is locking, Wich will actully make it alot easyer to pvp, As we all know focuse fire is a very importen thing off fleet fighitng, While today manny ppl fail in doing this proprely. Wich means that the most disiplined pvpers win in manny occations. The rest off the changes are mostly intresting like things use to be. But the See what commander is locking is just another step to let eve play pvp for u. iN my opion..
Tete denoeud	Posted - 2006.11.10 14:47:00 - [373] The only problem I see is that you wont be able to do pvp and head a squad while being drunk because it looks a bit complicated to manage rofl.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.11.10 15:46:00 - [374] Well, these changes actually do not improve anything. There's still no real group support system. Logistics in the widest sense do not get any love. Actually most pilots with any SP in the gang support skills just get the middle finger. So a full group of 256 ships needs 32 pilots with a full set of leadership, command and logistics skills and as many gang assist modules as possible, just in case someone in the chain of command gets his ship popped, jumps or disconnects? BC are pretty easy to spot, their effective combat range is pretty low and they go boom quickly once they're identified as pilots in the line of command and located. I like the new scanning system. It works pretty good with the usual placement of spies within a fleet. Small gangs get the rough end of the big stick for various reasons. One of them is the inability of the bonus to work up the ladder of command. Another one is the loss of the group support effects of the skills and modules. All I can see is the addition of some goodies to a system that's been broken from the earliest design phase. Do you think that the ability to disable all/most of the ingame command tools of an entire fleet by popping a handful of ships is a good design decision? Yes, you do not need to remove all the commanders to disabled those tools. breaking the command line in a few positions is enough to remove it from the game - along with all/most of the gang support skill and module effects. Adding more stuff to the overview isn't a good move, even when it will show more gang members - and you know that already. The addition of the broadcast section doesn't fix the overview. The more time you spend on adding new goodies to broken game features, the less likely it is that you take them out and redo them as they deserve. And both the gang system and the overview need a complete redesign from scratch. Adding a boatload of skills to work around the inadequacies does you no favour in the long run. I see a nice boost to short range engagements in theory coming from this as half the new features are useless unless the commanders are in lock range of the targets. If the targets decide not to play along and keep at sniping range, the commanders can sit in BS and stop giving group bonus to anything so they actually can do their job. You're not desparately trying to design around basic game features that are missing in EVE? Adding racing stripes and XenonÖ headlights to a Citroen 2CVÖ doesn't fix its basic shortcomings. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Jet Collins Dynamic Endeavors	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:31:00 - [375] Edited by: Jet Collins on 10/11/2006 16:33:20 With the new system fleet battles will consist of 3 groups. Group 1 the main fleet doing all the fighting group 2 the gang leaders hiding at SS. group 3 a small Elite group searching SS's to find the leaders and take them out, because once those 3 are dead the Fleet will have a server lose of bonuse with no one else in the Fleet having leadership skills anymore and once they are dead any new leaders will be on the main battle field ready to die quickly And to answer someones qyestion as to weather it is know out side the gang who the leaders are.... Yes... they are the ones in command ships :).
Greg Stone	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:08:00 - [376] Originally by: Tachy Small gangs get the rough end of the big stick for various reasons. One of them is the inability of the bonus to work up the ladder of command. Why? a small gang of 10 can still get gang bonuses from the squad comander. A group of up to 20 will need 2 squad commanders and a wing commander, both of which will contribute to the sqaud members. Originally by: Tachy I see a nice boost to short range engagements in theory coming from this as half the new features are useless unless the commanders are in lock range of the targets. No, read TomB's blog again. The commander doesn't need to LOCK the target to designate it. He just needs to be able to see it on the grid and do some key combo (shift ctrl left click or something) to designate it - no locking required.
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:34:00 - [377] Lets fix this little shall we? Fleet Commander = Fleet Support Wing Commander = Wing Support Squad Commander = Squad Support ...and then like TomB mentioned make the command functions separate from the gang hierarchy. I cant really see many FC's being the ones aboard the command ships. However I feel this organisational element should be optional and nothing to do with any gang bonus. I have no SP invested in this but changing a system and the way a profession (that of gang bonus provider NOT fleet commander) works to such a huge degree is in my opinion wrong. Yes, the current gang system causes lag. No, the answer is not to force people into a new system by telling them without it their many months of training mean nothing and making them train further for the pleasure of having their profession nerfed. The new system is a great organisational tool, but the above issues will draw a lot of attention from that. On a more selfish note this severely sucks for mining foremen, in many of the same ways it messes things up for fleets, but with NO benefits. /me calls the Veldspaar primary /me needs cap.... oh wait, no, left the AB on again
Hauth	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:57:00 - [378] "The more time you spend on adding new goodies to broken game features, the less likely it is that you take them out and redo them as they deserve. And both the gang system and the overview need a complete redesign from scratch. Adding a boatload of skills to work around the inadequacies does you no favour in the long run." Truest thing said in this thread ... The amount of time spent on these changes is probably half of what's needed to redo the overview in it's entirely, and every day you spend slapping crap on top of crap just means you're less likely to admit it's crap.
Arondor GalacTECH Unlimited	Posted - 2006.11.10 19:22:00 - [379] I wonder how long before this thread gets "moved" and "cleaned" so that it can be read? No one is listening to the valid complaints, everthing will be fixed with Kali. Perhaps we all just nbeed to show up at E3 or something with signs... /me rabble
Yatars Sister	Posted - 2006.11.10 19:41:00 - [380] OK, someone PLEASE clear this up for me.... Does the commander HAVE to be within 500km of the fleet to provide the bonuses, or do the bonuses still work while he's at a safe spot. If you're forcing carriers to the front line with such pathetic cap/tanking abilities (they really do instapop) then I strongly disagree with this decision.
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.11.10 20:41:00 - [381] Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 10/11/2006 20:43:05 Love the changes. I would suggest a few things though. 1) have a role for command ships, and carriers. Maybe limit the squad size or number of squads per wing as less than the current unless the FC is in a Carrier (for example) and the Wing commanders in Command ships. Then you can have the maximum number of pilots in the fleet possible. Also, I would suggest that for "formations" a good first step is to have a offensive and defensive formation. Defensive can make it so certain ships cannot be targeted until other ships have been targeted first, and eliminated. If you target the "primary" but it is protected by the "defensive" formation (or escorts if you will) then the target that can be chosen first is automatically targeted first, then you can keep targeting the desired target getting through the pecking order until you reach the desired target. This keeps EW and Carriers alive longer so they can participate in fleet battles in the front line. And ships may recieve a tanking bonus, hp, shield regen, or armour rep. The Drawback here is ships recieve a penalty to damage dealt with all weapons, and have even the effectiveness of nosses and Energy neuts reduced by some %. You will also have the option of selecting "only target Battleships/Battlecruisers" or "Cruisers/Battlecruisers" or Frigs/Destroyers etc. You pick the ship types you want your targeting to go to, because 1 frig, 1 destroyer, 1 battleship may be able to be targeted first. you can also assign 1 squad to target frigs, 1 squad to target Cruisers, 1 for Battleships etc. for their pecking order. Then the Offensive fleet formation has it so you can target any ship you want at the start. Maybe only haveing 1 or 2 ships protected but to get to them based on the numbers is much easier than in a defensive formation. Maybe kill 1 BS then you can target the carrier etc. The fleet here will recieve a damage/range bonus, and a speed bonus, or perhaps even a resolution bonus, so offensive fleets have more range, damage, or locking speed, than a defensive fleet. The goal here is you have to strip away an important ships escorts to attack the desired targets, but a defensive fleet the primary ships have more escorts, and an offensive fleet was significantly less. So if a fleet has no capital ships they will probably want an offensive formation, while a fleet feilding a Mother ship would want a defensive formation. Just a thought!
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.11.10 20:47:00 - [382] You can even colour code the escorts so you know what escorts are for what defended ship. Then you can strip away escorts and expensive ships, EW ships, carriers, Motherships Titans etc. Can all be in battle and be protected in a way. Also have it so only a certain amount of escorts can be assigned to a certain ship type.. A BS (Scorpion) is given a certain amount of escort points, so if escorted you can say assign 4 frigs, or 2 cruisers, or 1 Battleship to escort it. A Carrier can have say 1 Squad as an escort, and a mother ship can have 3 squads, a Dreadnaught 2 squads. Now without overpowering capital ships you can have specilized ships in combat that arn't insta-popped making fleet combat that much more tactical.
Zagum Darkfin Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.10 22:19:00 - [383] Edited by: Zagum Darkfin on 10/11/2006 22:25:36 This will only work if there is no lag in large fleet battles. Otherwise, you are just ****ing the wind thinking we can do all this during a fight and deal with the lag at the same time.
DeltaH Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.11 04:03:00 - [384] This is worthless. Argument that this is needed to fix server performance is a lame excuse. -DeltaH ---
zykerx Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.11.11 09:51:00 - [385] stupid changes, as somone else sugested in this thread allrdy, if the lagg thinghy is a problem thne make it so the gangleader can choise who gives the gangbonus for the gang, voila problem solved, no more calculating to see who has the best gangskills as the gangleader does that part your current changes will yust make it so that alot people wasted millions of sp into those skills
franny Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.11.11 11:43:00 - [386] there was 1 comment I saw in here about giving (force) recons the ability to fit gang mods all I can say is yes please with the inability to fit cyno + cloak, and the seriously gimped mobility of BC's in cruiser/ceptor gangs... it would give us something that can keep up and help our gangs as for the gang system meh... break the bonus's from the controls(delegate either way), and it might not be so bad
pInEaPpLe MuFfInMaN	Posted - 2006.11.12 00:35:00 - [387] Wow, fantastic.
Del Narveux Obsidian Angels Enterprises	Posted - 2006.11.12 04:36:00 - [388] Edited by: Del Narveux on 12/11/2006 04:39:32 Overall the changes seem okay, but anyone in a squadron should be able to apply bonuses for that squadron (not the wing, fleet etc.) even if theyre not the squad commander. Period. Too many people have invested too much time in leaderships skills, a nerf like this will just ** tons of people off. Like someone said a few pages back, this basically re-nerfs the leadership/charisma tree for everyone but the 0.001% of players that are CEOs/directors/admirals of very large corps/alliances. edit: also, if I get this right to get gang bonuses you have to set up fleet, wing, and squad even if wing/squad arent being used? This seems like a huge pain in the ass for 3 or 4 buddies going out for a night on the town, how about streamlining it a bit for ez squad formation? _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by:** Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Tachy	Posted - 2006.11.12 09:53:00 - [389] Originally by: Greg Stone Originally by: Tachy Small gangs get the rough end of the big stick for various reasons. One of them is the inability of the bonus to work up the ladder of command. Why? a small gang of 10 can still get gang bonuses from the squad comander. A group of up to 20 will need 2 squad commanders and a wing commander, both of which will contribute to the sqaud members. Imagine a small group of BC, let's take 4 for exsample. Each pilot trained one of the support skills and fits the module that supports the group best from his available options. With the new system they need a few more skills, like all the skills up to FC - and 3 pilots wont get half the bonus. The training of those skills did not happen instantly. They did the training that will be mostly useless with the changed system. Originally by: Greg Stone Originally by: Tachy I see a nice boost to short range engagements in theory coming from this as half the new features are useless unless the commanders are in lock range of the targets. No, read TomB's blog again. The commander doesn't need to LOCK the target to designate it. He just needs to be able to see it on the grid and do some key combo (shift ctrl left click or something) to designate it - no locking required. Play around with the feature. Think what you want it to do and check how tagging currently works with ranges, lag, packet loss, overview stopping to update, ships outside the grid, in warp, activating warp, whatnot. The commander has one designated target with the new feature - I can't find an undesignate option anywhere and it is said that he can switch >the< target easily :-) . Pilots outside of lock range encounter some weird stuff. If you add some lag the feature is pretty useless because of the way the overview works - or doesn't. If you followed ccp's history of working on reported bugs found on the open test server, you'll know that they don't care or can't do a thing about them once the stuff hits SiSi. Bugs on SiSi normally make it to Tranquility and they normally wont be fixed within the next 6 months - if ever. [/quote=Mephysto] at "kali testing pt2: the bugs strike back. reported by Mephysto \| 2006.11.06 16:57:00" [...], and all bug reports are welcome (honest!). Go there, find some bugs and do as complete reports on them as possible. Then look how they enter Tranquility in the Kali1 patch unless they're good for duping or crashing server nodes. SiSi is mostly used for stress tests and end deployment tests, not for code or feature testing unless a special event takes place, ie. the POS/Outpost test some time ago that didn't lead to many fixed year-old features. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.11.12 13:56:00 - [390] Quote: -Health bars are now also just shown for specific part of the group, based on where you are in the gang. The main reason for this is to optimize the gang service performance as status on health wonÆt be send to hundred of gang mates. In detail: I think this will break many things, for example logistics not being able to see the health in the BS squad. Other solutions might have been better: a) do not update any health bars for anyone in the whole gang, unless he presses the "broadcast my health" button (so my health is only shown to everyone when I deem it an interesting information) or unless someone requests it from me (then send it only to him). Even in gangs of 10 the health bars are usually not an interesting information and cause lag when not needed. b) allow gang members to monitor others' health bars by enabling an option for it (right click gang member, select "monitor health"). So only those who can do something interesting with this information will bother to enable it. (OK, those who want to cause lag will have a new tool to do so, so perhaps limit this somehow - "too many members are already being monitored in your gang" etc.) The gang bonus mechanism could also be changed in a similar "on demand" way. Give gang members a simple option to choose one member who will boost them (right click on gang member - select "receive gang bonus" or something like that). Then you don't need complicated calculations for X gang members who might boost you at every tick, all you need to do is check whether the guy you chose is still alive / in system. Also, you can have multiple people with gang boosting skills who can be useful for the whole gang (each one to those who need him most).

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