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Bloggers #41, TomB's new epic, Gangs of New Eden

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 24 post(s)

kieron	Posted - 2006.11.07 11:52:00 - [1] Gang warfare, fleet battles, overview, settings, and much more, TomB's new Dev Blog is big. Maybe not quite to the scale of a Francis Ford Coppola film, but close enough as far as we're concerned. Just don't expect to drink an oversided soda while reading this one and not have to take a trip to the restroom. Gangs of New Eden kieron Community Manager, EVE Online

sidthesexist Caldari Friendship 7 Corporation YouWhat	Posted - 2006.11.07 11:54:00 - [2] 1st and w00t! ________ You What?
Tsavong Lah Caldari Solar Storm Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.07 11:57:00 - [3] Edited by: Tsavong Lah on 07/11/2006 11:58:09 sounds cool 2nd, rawr.... hopefully this stuff will help gang mechanics, but i can't see it taking over from ts-calling of primaries etc. the logistic stuff looks good tho I got a jar of dirt!
Michayel Lyon Contention Inc	Posted - 2006.11.07 11:58:00 - [4] 3rd? I always miss it... --- Lasiverin Dark > Is everyone here allied? Red Knight > we are allied by our zombie like ability to ***** missions

Eldo Davip Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.11.07 11:59:00 - [5] awesome.... so many changes!! FInally gangs are becoming better, what they are supposed to be. GJ CCP! I see a lot of improvements which were given by players in the forums. ___ Email Us (Report a bad post) \| Forum Rules - Read 'em! \| Website

Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:01:00 - [6] good stuff (5th?) This corp is recruiting. Billboard Project
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:02:00 - [7] I want your babies!! This is what we were always waiting for.. <3 CCP
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:04:00 - [8] Looks good to me. Although it's going to upset a lot of people who want to command fleets, but have munchkin low charisma.
Gone'Postal Minmatar LuthorCorp Combat Division	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:04:00 - [9] **** that looks sweet ! The man without a face... The company without a clue.
Winter Star Back Home In Time For Tea And Medals The Volition Cult	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:05:00 - [10] I tried these out the other day and the icons in space are really really nice - the align to, enemy spotted ect! Not so hot on new chat windows all over the place?
Zothike Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:06:00 - [11] I'm not sure to understand, does it mean that if i'm in a BC with gang modules, for the bonus to apply to all members i have to be the leader of the entity (fleet commander to give all bonuses to fleet, wing commander to give bonus to all the squadron ? if i dont want to be a leader then i'm useless? then GANG modules = being FC ?
John Leitch Gallente Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:07:00 - [12] Love it
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:13:00 - [13] /me is surprised nobody has yet asked for the return of trained and possibly now useless/wasted SP's .. MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Sensi Milla GoonFleet	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:15:00 - [14] A gang limit of 50 will needlessly cripple alliance combat when Kali hits, since nobody will be able to train the skills until they are released - and even then, with good skills it will take at least a month to match a 50 man gang limit.

Eldo Davip Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:18:00 - [15] Originally by: MOOstradamus /me is surprised nobody has yet asked for the return of trained and possibly now useless/wasted SP's .. Oh shush you...we've already got enough whining. ___ Email Us (Report a bad post) \| Forum Rules - Read 'em! \| Website

Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:20:00 - [16] Gangs just got alot more complex. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.

Huitzilopochtli Tlaloc Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:23:00 - [17] Nice improvements, make alot of sence and nice how it ties in with the seamless map, kali keeps on getting better and better! ____ forum rules \| Email us They call me "Hutch" I do not know why - probably because they are lazy to write Huitzilopochtli Tlaloc

Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:24:00 - [18] Edited by: Sir Juri on 07/11/2006 12:25:29 A bit sidetrack but I notice in one screen it says "warp to 0m" for the gang member. Does that mean we can expect warp to 0km for everything in EVE? Does that also mean we have a chance of accidently bumping everyone away during combat? **** need to make a new sig...
Blind Man Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:25:00 - [19] Edited by: Blind Man on 07/11/2006 12:24:48 Originally by: Zothike I'm not sure to understand, does it mean that if i'm in a BC with gang modules, for the bonus to apply to all members i have to be the leader of the entity (fleet commander to give all bonuses to fleet, wing commander to give bonus to all the squadron ? if i dont want to be a leader then i'm useless? then GANG modules = being FC ? yeah...I don't want to have to be the leader It's great flying Amarr, ain't it?

Eldo Davip Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:27:00 - [20] Originally by: Sir Juri Edited by: Sir Juri on 07/11/2006 12:25:29 A bit sidetrack but I notice in one screen it says "warp to 0m" for the gang member. Does that mean we can expect warp to 0km for everything in EVE? Does that also mean we have a chance of accidently bumping everyone away during combat? That only means that they put in that option to make testing easier. Nothing is sure until Kali hits TQ. ___ Email Us (Report a bad post) \| Forum Rules - Read 'em! \| Website

Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:31:00 - [21] Originally by: Eldo Davip Originally by: Sir Juri Edited by: Sir Juri on 07/11/2006 12:25:29 A bit sidetrack but I notice in one screen it says "warp to 0m" for the gang member. Does that mean we can expect warp to 0km for everything in EVE? Does that also mean we have a chance of accidently bumping everyone away during combat? That only means that they put in that option to make testing easier. Nothing is sure until Kali hits TQ. True, true but then why cant a dev take 5 sec to post stating that? I think it will happen or they wanna test the waters first so to speak both on SISI and the community. **** need to make a new sig...
Severa Crest Nomina Sacra Sapientia Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:35:00 - [22] Originally by: Blind Man Edited by: Blind Man on 07/11/2006 12:24:48 Originally by: Zothike I'm not sure to understand, does it mean that if i'm in a BC with gang modules, for the bonus to apply to all members i have to be the leader of the entity (fleet commander to give all bonuses to fleet, wing commander to give bonus to all the squadron ? if i dont want to be a leader then i'm useless? then GANG modules = being FC ? yeah...I don't want to have to be the leader Players who didnt want to lead should have thought twice before training leadership skills and command ships.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:41:00 - [23] Nice but please make it so that you can disconnect the gang window from the overview, its impossible to fit both under each other after these changes. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:46:00 - [24] Originally by: Eldo Davip Originally by: MOOstradamus /me is surprised nobody has yet asked for the return of trained and possibly now useless/wasted SP's .. Oh shush you...we've already got enough whining. Wait what... These are new skills, so will leadership not give ability to have a gang of 10? will the skill wing etc allready existing not be the ones that increase gang size/squadron size? so when this gets released there wont be any gangs for a long while? im so confused now. **** need to make a new sig...
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:49:00 - [25] 3 thumbs up Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Two step Amarr Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:50:00 - [26] Does the bonus comign from squadron, wing and fleet commanders mean that you can get 3 bonuses stacked? Or is it just the highest bonus like it is now?

TomB	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:51:00 - [27] Originally by: Sensi Milla A gang limit of 50 will needlessly cripple alliance combat when Kali hits, since nobody will be able to train the skills until they are released - and even then, with good skills it will take at least a month to match a 50 man gang limit. You'll be capable of having a Fleet of 256 members right away, the only problem is that you won't be capable of having the Fleet Commander active until he has sufficient skills to run an army of that size. So the only difference is that this single Commander can't be giving commands or gang bonuses to this big group of players. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

Bermag Point-Zero Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:58:00 - [28] Edited by: Bermag on 07/11/2006 13:00:02 Does this mean that you can get same bonus from 3 gang member, fleet leader, wing commander and squad leader or is it still only the highest bonus that applies? EDIT: Sorry question replied before I hit reply.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:00:00 - [29] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/11/2006 13:07:44 Originally by: Sensi Milla A gang limit of 50 will needlessly cripple alliance combat when Kali hits, since nobody will be able to train the skills until they are released - and even then, with good skills it will take at least a month to match a 50 man gang limit. Slight hyperbole. With Leadership V you get 10 people in squadron. That's, what, 5 days of training, even if you have no leadership to start with -- and pretty much everyone has at least Leadership 3-4, it's only rank 1. For 50 people, you need Wing Command 4. So that's a rank 8 skill to level 4, which is... dunno, 7 days (just a guess)? So that's 5 + 7 = 12 days, less than 2 weeks. ...and everyone else will be in the same boat, it's not like you'll be the only alliance dealing with this. So we'll see smaller gangs for a few weeks. Sky isn't falling. Of course, if your Charisma is 3 then it sucks to be you. Nobody forced you to take that minimized charisma, now it's payback time for all the training time you've saved up to now.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:03:00 - [30] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 07/11/2006 13:04:10 Originally by: TomB It won't be available in Kali but it's planned for next upcoming release. The good thing though is that you have collapsing groups inside the gang UI and members take less space now. So the gang UI itself takes less space. The addon is the gang broadcast window how ever which you can resize as you want to see as many broadcasts you want to at given moment. Awesome beans! \o/ PS: I knew 13 base charisma would make me awesome one day! ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:06:00 - [31] Edited by: Sir Juri on 07/11/2006 13:08:14 Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 07/11/2006 13:04:10 Originally by: TomB It won't be available in Kali but it's planned for next upcoming release. The good thing though is that you have collapsing groups inside the gang UI and members take less space now. So the gang UI itself takes less space. The addon is the gang broadcast window how ever which you can resize as you want to see as many broadcasts you want to at given moment. Awesome beans! \o/ PS: I knew 13 base charisma would make me awesome one day! Time to buy charisma implants now before prices GOES BONANZA! edit; 2implants bought, now just need to wait and see when prices goes up. **** need to make a new sig...
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:06:00 - [32] Edited by: Tiuwaz on 07/11/2006 13:07:39 Originally by: TomB Originally by: Two step Does the bonus comign from squadron, wing and fleet commanders mean that you can get 3 bonuses stacked? Or is it just the highest bonus like it is now? Highest bonus counts, like how it is now. then there is no real point to have several ppl with gangskills if the fleetcommander got them? :/ P.S.: not saying that they should stack but had hoped that the maximum pf ppl someone with gang skills could affect would be a wing Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:06:00 - [33] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Sensi Milla A gang limit of 50 will needlessly cripple alliance combat when Kali hits, since nobody will be able to train the skills until they are released - and even then, with good skills it will take at least a month to match a 50 man gang limit. You'll be capable of having a Fleet of 256 members right away, the only problem is that you won't be capable of having the Fleet Commander active until he has sufficient skills to run an army of that size. So the only difference is that this single Commander can't be giving gang bonuses to this big group of players. Now I'm confused. I thought the new skills affected the number of members you could have in your squadron, or the number of squadrons you could have in your wing, etc... but the above implies that you could form a max-size fleet with zero Leadership skills. How does that work?
Cpt Pewpew	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:07:00 - [34] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Nice but please make it so that you can disconnect the gang window from the overview, its impossible to fit both under each other after these changes. It won't be available in Kali but it's planned for next upcoming release. The good thing though is that you have collapsing groups inside the gang UI and members take less space now. So the gang UI itself takes less space. The addon is the gang broadcast window how ever which you can resize as you want to see as many broadcasts you want to at given moment. If you don't like getting the broadcast window then just collapse it until you can split the control panel Do you mean Kali 2 or do you mean next release in 3 years. i hope that was release after kali 1, ie kali 2. And great stuff btw *Cpt Pewpew selfdestructs
Tedric Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:07:00 - [35] Scouts.... I see one problem with scouts and broadcasts. I would like to see an option where you can limit who can see what the scout says, mainly to prevent the leackage of information to the fleet in general. Spys in fleets are common place. ted.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:10:00 - [36] Correction... 14 base. So 14 + 10 + 5 = 29 Charisma ^_^ Intelligence 9 Perception 8 Willpower 4 Memory 4 ^ Might pose some problems towards training command ships though ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:11:00 - [37] Great changeÆs but I guess I need to find a new corp to join. Being a Command ship pilot with high leadership skills is a little pointless sin my current corp where I have yet to even see another corp member. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:12:00 - [38] Additional question: I'm a bit puzzled as to why squadron commanders don't (apparently) get the best bonuses from their wing/fleet commanders, which the non-leader pilots under him do, and likewise wing commanders apparently(?) don't benefit from fleet commander bonus? Wouldn't it make more sense like this: squad members: get highest of squad/wing/fleet commander bonus squad commanders: get highest of own/wing/fleet bonus wing commanders: get highest of own/fleet bonus fleet commanders: are uber and don't need no stinkin' extra bonus
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:14:00 - [39] "Milking the cash cow" springs to mind. So we have pvp alts/mains Industrial alts Research alts + more (capital alts/mains?) and now gang alts.
Pellaeon DuGalle Caldari Deep Black Industries	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:17:00 - [40] Will it be possible for a member (be it the cannon fodder or the fleet commander) to send broadcasts to a specific group of people or individuals outside their own "squad"? Say I have a squad with pure logistics, and as cannon fodder, I scream for more shields. Can I direct that broadcast to a single logistics ship in another squad whom my FC has designated as my combat squad's healer? If I'm the FC, and I'm in dire need to boosting, can I also direct that to an individual or squad who I've designated to be my bodyguard? Or will my cries for help override all filters and end up spamming everybody? ------------------- "There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible."
Ezekiel Garett	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:17:00 - [41] Wondering a bit about skills here. First we have Leadership (rank 1) skill. Then Squadron Command (rank 6, needing Leadership V). Then Wing Command (rank 8, needing Squadron Command V). So about 2,5-3 months or sumtin to train those to max, depending on attributes. In Blog was mentioned a new skill not yet visible in database: Fleet Command. Will that skill require Wing Command V ??? or is it a "stand-alone" skill. If first option there will be some time before we see even the first new Fleet.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:22:00 - [42] Originally by: jeNK "Milking the cash cow" springs to mind. So we have pvp alts/mains Industrial alts Research alts + more (capital alts/mains?) and now gang alts. Funny, I do all those (fairly well) with my main. Guess nobody told me I needed all those alts.
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:25:00 - [43] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: jeNK "Milking the cash cow" springs to mind. So we have pvp alts/mains Industrial alts Research alts + more (capital alts/mains?) and now gang alts. Funny, I do all those (fairly well) with my main. Guess nobody told me I needed all those alts. Says it in the blog "Specialised path" So you're happy to train rank 12 skills+ everytime a new feature comes out that is a necessity if you want to continue playing? k, good for you.
Idara Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:26:00 - [44] Kind of annoying that I've trained lower-level gang skills (target bonus, speed etc.) to use in small gangs and now those bonuses won't apply. --- Go! Go! Go pointless Tier 3s!
Sovereign533 Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:27:00 - [45] WOOHOO!!! <3 u :P Originally by: Sovereign533 Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell... Second sig removed, only 1 signature graphic please - Xorus ^_^WOOHOO!!! my Sig finally got nerfed...
Silvero Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:29:00 - [46] Question: Will a squad commander be able to gang warp "his" squad to a object, scout. And that means ofc that a wing commander could reposition "his" squads, while the fleet commander can move the entire fleet ?

Tirg Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:31:00 - [47] Currently, if I am in a command ship, with 3 information warfare links active, and ganged with other command ships, the whole gang is boosted. If I dock, the gang gets no information boosts at all, no matter what someone else may have skill wise. So I don't really see that changing ( stays the same). EX :For those who are miners, let me put it this way. Gang of 5, 3 have mining foreman 4 and me with 5. I dock, the entire bonus goes away, it doesn't drop to foreman 4 bonus. However, this new way means, only my squadron/wing gets my info warfare boost? The other wings don't? they only get what the command ship they're attached to has? I'm trying not to see this as a nerf ( though that part may have been needed):) I like that more organization is required, and I LOVE the broadcast ability, which is going to make calling primary much easier. It's also going to require more player skill, rather than just slapping 4 maxxed out command ships into gang then rolling ( as currently). Now your sig is mine MUAHAHAHAHAHA - Xorus

Gripen Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:32:00 - [48] Originally by: Zothike I'm not sure to understand, does it mean that if i'm in a BC with gang modules, for the bonus to apply to all members i have to be the leader of the entity (fleet commander to give all bonuses to fleet, wing commander to give bonus to all the squadron ? if i dont want to be a leader then i'm useless? then GANG modules = being FC ? I would also like to hear clarification about this.
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:34:00 - [49] Originally by: Severa Crest Originally by: Blind Man Edited by: Blind Man on 07/11/2006 12:24:48 Originally by: Zothike I'm not sure to understand, does it mean that if i'm in a BC with gang modules, for the bonus to apply to all members i have to be the leader of the entity (fleet commander to give all bonuses to fleet, wing commander to give bonus to all the squadron ? if i dont want to be a leader then i'm useless? then GANG modules = being FC ? yeah...I don't want to have to be the leader Players who didnt want to lead should have thought twice before training leadership skills and command ships. Actually, thats called radically changing the goal posts.
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:36:00 - [50] Originally by: Gripen Originally by: Zothike I'm not sure to understand, does it mean that if i'm in a BC with gang modules, for the bonus to apply to all members i have to be the leader of the entity (fleet commander to give all bonuses to fleet, wing commander to give bonus to all the squadron ? if i dont want to be a leader then i'm useless? then GANG modules = being FC ? I would also like to hear clarification about this. As far as I can work out, you can only give a gang bonus to people you are commanding in the fleet. So yes, you have to assume some stage of command be it Squadron/Wing or Fleet for your gang modules to have any effect.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:41:00 - [51] Originally by: jeNK Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: jeNK "Milking the cash cow" springs to mind. So we have pvp alts/mains Industrial alts Research alts + more (capital alts/mains?) and now gang alts. Funny, I do all those (fairly well) with my main. Guess nobody told me I needed all those alts. Says it in the blog "Specialised path" So you're happy to train rank 12 skills+ everytime a new feature comes out that is a necessity if you want to continue playing? k, good for you. Well, I have yet to see any rank 12 skills that are a necessity to the way I play. Pretty much all the "necessary" stuff is max rank 5. But yeah, if a new rank 12 skill came out that I felt was necessary to me, hell yes I'd train it. You know what the good thing about those high ranks is? Not that many bother to train them, or just train on mono-focused alts, giving you an edge if you do have them. It always a trade-off. But this is digressing a bit from the point of this thread.

TomB	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:43:00 - [52] Originally by: Tiuwaz Edited by: Tiuwaz on 07/11/2006 13:07:39 Originally by: TomB Originally by: Two step Does the bonus comign from squadron, wing and fleet commanders mean that you can get 3 bonuses stacked? Or is it just the highest bonus like it is now? Highest bonus counts, like how it is now. then there is no real point to have several ppl with gangskills if the fleetcommander got them? :/ P.S.: not saying that they should stack but had hoped that the maximum pf ppl someone with gang skills could affect would be a wing If your Squad Commander can't run your Squad, then it's inactive and can't receive bonuses. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

Jet Collins Dynamic Endeavors	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:43:00 - [53] Ok Queston? OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever. One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills. In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses. In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct? If so this compleatly blows.

TomB	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:45:00 - [54] Originally by: Pottsey Great changeÆs but I guess I need to find a new corp to join. Being a Command ship pilot with high leadership skills is a little pointless sin my current corp where I have yet to even see another corp member. Ok. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:50:00 - [55] ... im clueless tbh, with so many things, guess Il wait till its released before anything makes sense. Oh and Tomb, is everything gonna have warp to 0km on TQ? or is it just for SISI? and no such change is taking place? **** need to make a new sig...
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:53:00 - [56] So Command ships only give a bonus if their pilot is a Squad/Wing/Fleet Commander now, yes? That's somewhat annoying though, because for an FC it helps if they can lock the target the rest of the fleet shoots aswell. BCs, while having decent range, just dont cut it compared to the Tech2 sniper BSs, mainly because of the lack of range bonus that HACs have. Besides that, i assume the whole gang setup will be used for the VoIP when its introduced? Squad broadcast, Wing broadcast etc? It's great being Amarr, aint it?

TomB	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:53:00 - [57] Originally by: Jet Collins Ok Queston? OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever. One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills. In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses. In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct? If so this compleatly blows. Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

Rutoo Gallente Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:55:00 - [58] I have a question i wish answered... A couple actually let me start Is there still only going to be 1 Gang leader? that can invite people? or Are all the Fleet Commander, Wing Commanders, Squad Commanders going to invite people? or is the fleet Commander going to be the one who always has to be there inviting people? Can the Gang Leader not be any of the above? Just assign who is who? And do the warping, Understand that alot of people don't have instas when raiding but some do, Changing who is Wing Commander just so they can gang warp and loosing bonas, And Loosing the gang setup becuase they don't have the skills to lead the gang anyways.... _________________________________________________________ My First EvE Video Club Seals Not Sandwichs
Smagd Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:56:00 - [59] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: TomB Originally by: Sensi Milla A gang limit of 50 will needlessly cripple alliance combat when Kali hits, since nobody will be able to train the skills until they are released - and even then, with good skills it will take at least a month to match a 50 man gang limit. You'll be capable of having a Fleet of 256 members right away, the only problem is that you won't be capable of having the Fleet Commander active until he has sufficient skills to run an army of that size. So the only difference is that this single Commander can't be giving gang bonuses to this big group of players. Now I'm confused. I thought the new skills affected the number of members you could have in your squadron, or the number of squadrons you could have in your wing, etc... but the above implies that you could form a max-size fleet with zero Leadership skills. How does that work? Erm, brother, it's in the blog: You form a regular gang (up to 256 whatever) but zero gang assist skills and modules and apply (nerf!). Then you skill the skills (and I somehow doubt you'll get a rank 8 skill to IV in 7 days with a low primary charisma attribute, but got no character manager here) and form happy Squadrons and Fleets, where the gang assist modules and skills of the commanders work again, plus you get spiffy GUI enhancements (pretty **** cool looking, but the gang assists are still not completely unnerfed since squad members skills won't count). Then you get your commander shot up and lose all the gang assists again until you assign a backup commander. I've got a feeling there's gonna be a merry hell of a confusion in major fleet engagements till people get this practised right, but the worst that's gonna happen is no gang assists till fleet command manages to cobble together a proper hierarchyagain. -- Thukkers do

TomB	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:56:00 - [60] Originally by: Adam Reed Hang about... "gang bonuses of any kind (skills, modules) have been disabled completely" ...now, I know this thread seems to be all about combat, but I just want to check - this doesn't mean non-combat gang bonuses have been scrapped as well does it? The extra 10% yield for a gang with Mining Foreman level 5 is what I'm principally thinking of. It's for all gang bonuses, if you want 256 people to mine in a single group you will need a lot of commanders with sufficient skills to command the groups. And then the Fleet Commander can boost mining for the entire fleet. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

Apertotes Nuevos Horizontes O X I D E	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:57:00 - [61] will pilots be able to interact with gang mates that are on another squad? for example, if i am flying a logistic ship on squad #17, and a mate on squad #23 needs some help, will i be able to help him or will he die in a horrible way? at least, if i understood right, i wont be able to see his HP, so i will only be able to help if he sends a broadcast petition. am i correct? Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve

TomB	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:00:00 - [62] Originally by: Apertotes will pilots be able to interact with gang mates that are on another squad? for example, if i am flying a logistic ship on squad #17, and a mate on squad #23 needs some help, will i be able to help him or will he die in a horrible way? at least, if i understood right, i wont be able to see his HP, so i will only be able to help if he sends a broadcast petition. am i correct? You might see: [Broadcast Window] A Mate > Need Armor Repair! You clickit You get option "Lock Target" You select it You activate your remote repairers He still dies I loot him TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

Silvero Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:07:00 - [63] How is the moving around gonna work for the diffrent squads/wings: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=422562&page=2#49
Apertotes Nuevos Horizontes O X I D E	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:07:00 - [64] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Apertotes will pilots be able to interact with gang mates that are on another squad? for example, if i am flying a logistic ship on squad #17, and a mate on squad #23 needs some help, will i be able to help him or will he die in a horrible way? at least, if i understood right, i wont be able to see his HP, so i will only be able to help if he sends a broadcast petition. am i correct? You might see: [Broadcast Window] A Mate > Need Armor Repair! You clickit You get option "Lock Target" You select it You activate your remote repairers He still dies I loot him you? and how many more? are you bringing your jove mates too? ****ed jove... it's like having ronaldinho on your team. anyway, good luck with all the testing. this could be a great new feature. Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve
G Dabak Magellanic Itg GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:09:00 - [65] Are you considering adding more roles such as someone who can invite or warp at the fleet/wing level who is not a commander of either? Dedicating someone to keeping the squads filled or moving the fleet around would free up the commanders to worry about larger things.
Kanuo Ashkeron Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:10:00 - [66] What happens if someone has fleet/wing command not at level 5? Can he still form a fleet/wing and his bonuses only apply to a part of it? Or are there no bonuses at all if the fleet/wing exceeds his maximum size (skillwise)? Kanuo
LC Sulla BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:10:00 - [67] Edited by: LC Sulla on 07/11/2006 14:12:52 Edited by: LC Sulla on 07/11/2006 14:11:42 If I'm reading this right then we will start to see more specialised squads forming led by a squad leader with highly developed, but specialised, leadership skills. But there does seem a slight inconsistancy that I would like to see addressed. For purposes of example lets consider a 10 man squad acting as the scout group for a fleet and remaining about 1-2 jumps ahead of the main fleet. So we could imagine this squad has some covert ops, force recons and interceptors. Our 'specialist' squad leader might have Skirmish Warefare Specialist IV, Squadron Command IV (for the link module bonuses - gather it will be renamed after Kali). In order to pass his bonuses at a maximum level to his squad he really needs a BC sized ship with link modules. This seems unsuitable for a squad whose sole responsibility is focussed around fast movement. Is there any plans for smaller command type ships which could mount a single link module? Something like a fast lightweight command cruiser or even allow a force recon to mount a single link module... Food for thought .
Jet Collins Dynamic Endeavors	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:12:00 - [68] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Jet Collins Ok Queston? OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever. One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills. In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses. In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct? If so this compleatly blows. Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead. Thanks Well the good news than I don't need to bother with 50 more days or training seige skills. The bad news I have waisted 20day :p.
QwaarJet Gallente Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:16:00 - [69] Looks too complex tbh. The broadcast system looks good, but the changes to gang structure look very bad. I think we'll see most people just sticking with normal gangs unless there is a fleet battle, in which case there will be even more confusion than normal, although at least TS/VENT will be clearer. "Hobbes, she stepped into the Perimeter Of Wisdom.Run!"
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:18:00 - [70] So if one has leadership lvl5 (the one existing now) and the other rank 2 skills (the ones existing now to) giving more armor/shield etc without gang modules, will they be able to have a squadron of 10ppl with the bonuses applied from those rank 2 skills? And can run that squad alone and as a squad in a fleet? without training the new skills? **** need to make a new sig...
Swamp Ziro EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:20:00 - [71] Originally by: Kanuo Ashkeron What happens if someone has fleet/wing command not at level 5? Can he still form a fleet/wing and his bonuses only apply to a part of it? Or are there no bonuses at all if the fleet/wing exceeds his maximum size (skillwise)? Kanuo Good question. I'd like to know too.
Murtac	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:21:00 - [72] There's a bunch of problems with this: 1) Forcing command ship pilots to be in the same grid makes sense, somewhat (even though it will lead to them sitting 500km away from the battle whenever possible), but forcing them to be squad/wing/fleet leaders doesn't. It forces us to appoint people as leaders who have no leadership capabilities (speaking of the person here, not the toon) just because they are the only ones who have the skills trained. 2) The gang unit size limitations are very impractical. A small fleet has, say, 12 battleships, 11 cruisers and 14 tacklers. Most FCs would like to put these into three groups, with one leader each, but the current system forces us to divide them into 3 wings with 2 squads each. That means we'll have 6 squads and 10 leaders (1 fleet, 3 wings, 6 squad). Sounds excessive... 3) Most fleets will want to split their members by shiptype. Bringing a command ship along to get the bonuses is just not possible in, for example, a ceptor wing. So, no gang bonuses for ceptors and (agile) cruisers. A sniper BS squad might bring a command ship along, but the command ship won't be able to do anything because it doesn't have the range.
Garia666 Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:22:00 - [73] FU guys.. so i have trained for my ****ation with all its skilz and implants and the only way my bonusses will help is when i am a commander.. WHy the hell did you gusy do that. If i knew that already i would have never trained for it.. You guys suck badly ->My Vids<-
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:25:00 - [74] One of the biggest problems is that CCP have forgotten to seed these new skills on the test server, so currently it's impossible to test it out for bugs :) Raptor and Ares Fix
Cabadrin Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:31:00 - [75] Very, very excited about this. _______________________________________________

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:34:00 - [76] Originally by: Kai Lae One of the biggest problems is that CCP have forgotten to seed these new skills on the test server, so currently it's impossible to test it out for bugs :) BAH I'll get right on it _______________

Edmund Khan Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:34:00 - [77] Please add a special role for gangs: inviter. So FCs can concentrate on leading the battle while someone else handles invites. Nice changes, was about time :)
Max TheRock Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:50:00 - [78] - we need an inviter role (like the others said) It seems to me that the FC will always be callled primary... How about if we allow the gang mod to be activated while cloaked on the CBC?
Paddlefoot Aeon Neogen Industries Serenity Fallen	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:50:00 - [79] Question for TomB: Say me and 3 mates want to go into enemy space and... mine for scrap metal (yaarrr). We gang up like we used to, go in, and let the PEW PEW start. Same as before. But.... If we want gang bonuses, we need to designate a Fleet Commander, Wing Commander and Squadron Commander? Or, can I just designate Friend #3 as a Squadron Commander, with all of us in his squadron, leave Wing and Fleet Commander spots empty, and have the squadron commander give us gang bonuses? This could also be applied to mining: Have an SC, no FC or WC, and have the SC give the "Covetor Army" the mining foreman bonus? So I guess my first question is "can we create gangs with holes in upper management, but still have a squad commander boost our skills?" Also, for those people who mine most of the time, most of their SP are in industrial skills. If a gang needs an FC to get a bonus, isn't that nerfing most mining corps?
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:51:00 - [80] Edited by: Vasiliyan on 07/11/2006 14:55:30 Originally by: TomB You'll be capable of having a Fleet of 256 members right away, the only problem is that you won't be capable of having the Fleet Commander active until he has sufficient skills to run an army of that size. So the only difference is that this single Commander can't be giving gang bonuses to this big group of players. \o/ Thankyou for this vital clarification, it should slow down the complaints :) While you're here, gangs could really do with being able to delegate the "invite", "warp gang to", and "tag" roles to multiple different people.
Mr Ninjaface Minmatar Shurekin INC	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:52:00 - [81] I think you have made this overly complicated.
Selthae Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:52:00 - [82] I can't say I like it. Some points yes, others absolutely not. It's great that you want to refine fleet combat and allow for more flexibility in fleet makeup and structure, but you're radically changing gameplay, and messing with a lot of players choices in how to be part of fleet ops. Originally by: "The eve-o item database" command ships Battlecruiser-class vessels, designed to aid their allies on the battlefield. gang assist modules Modules used to assist gang members. armored warfare link - passive defense Grants a bonus to the gang's armor resistances. Originally by: "Claymore description" while not packing the punch of their field command counterparts, the boosts they give their comrades in combat make them indispensable assets to any well-rounded fleet. EVERYTHING there, not only suggests but states that you, as a pilot, can boost the gang. First you add leadership skills to make the Charisma attribute more usefull, that was great. And now you effectively kill the entire charisma tree again for those who are not squadleader or above. The reason why I trained my main and an alt for Command Ships was for the boosts they give their comrades, to be able to have Modules used to assist gang members, and so they could use the ships designed to aid their allies. Things would have been different if this path would have been communicated to the playerbase when you introduced commandships and made it continuously abundantly clear. Not when the playerbase is finally evolving to be able to use these ships effectively.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:55:00 - [83] So lemmie get this straight... You can have a flat gang of 50 pilots, but no gang bonuses will come into effect. Howevever, if you convert your gang into a squad (max 10 pilots per squad + commander); then they get any bonuses provided by that squad leader (but noone else in the gang). What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Tundaar Minmatar Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:57:00 - [84] Hmmm - this it seems will change targetting so that the first primary will always be Commanders to cut off the bonuses. Adminstratively most fleets (currently) have the equivalent of an Executive officer to handle the administrative tasks - (invites, moving from point A-B etc) while the FC concentrates on strategy and targetting. Sounds like the FC's job (person) just got a LOT harder. Not only do they have to do all the strategic stuff but train a bunch more skills for command ships/command skills while not being able to utilise their own combat skills. It is a fact of life that people are NOT their Eve Characters. People who have no RL ability to command fleets can still (currently) assist within the Eve universe by having their *character* train leadership skills, get implants and train command ship skills to assist their gangs. Now this ability becomes wasted because they (as a person) may not be capable of commanding a fleet. On the other hand, those who have the ability to command a fleet now have to use their characters to train a bunch of skills to assist their fleet. (Which effectively rules most new players, regardless of how talented, out of command positions as they will not have the ship/command skills necessary) Would it not make more sense to simply apply command bonii within the Squad that the character is attached to wjile also allowing for a higher command bonus from above? This would allow people (in a RP sense) to assist with a bonus, would not waste current SP trained and would also allow a command bonus hierarchy at sqad/wing/fleet level. It would also partially do away with the issue of no bonus for ship specific gangs (scouts, 'ceptors etc). As a nice aside it would also allow for "Elite" squads eg: An Inty Squad where everyone has Information leadership spec so no maatter who you kock out they still all get a bonus . . . . .could lead to very specialised Gangs.
flakeonium Amarr Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:58:00 - [85] Originally by: TomB so that players with no mic would start feeling left out in the cold. Please implement keyboard control for ships because players with no MOUSE start feeling left out in the cold... Or is there only one person in island that has a microphone blueprint? But anyway, good and long needed stuff in kali. -------------------------------------------------- *<(:-}
Mr Ninjaface Minmatar Shurekin INC	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:10:00 - [86] I think you just made the gang system crappier tomb. The way bonuses are getting applied is stupid. KISS (keep it simple stupid) Rule applies here. You seem to have addressed what people where asking for kind of. Give the ability to assign roles in a gang. EX other people can gang warp other people can gang invite. Then you gimped it So now if a squad command warps his squad the FC gets left out and has to warp on his own etc. No reason to be the FC it seems like you need a **** load of skills and then you dont get and gang bonuses. Most people wanted this. Form gang everyone gets bonuses from the command ships and the FC can assign limited roles to other players with in the gang to gang warp and gang invite so he can focus more on strategy and tactics. The broad cast stuff thats all fine if it actually works. All the wings and squad crap is just useless
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:11:00 - [87] Originally by: Adam Reed Hang about... "gang bonuses of any kind (skills, modules) have been disabled completely" ...now, I know this thread seems to be all about combat, but I just want to check - this doesn't mean non-combat gang bonuses have been scrapped as well does it? The extra 10% yield for a gang with Mining Foreman level 5 is what I'm principally thinking of. Ummm, I'd think that's exactly what it means. "...of any kind (skills, modules)...". I think it's pretty clear. Otoh, it's trivial to train Leadership (rank 1) to 4 or 5, and even with just 4 you have a "fleet" size of 8 -- enough for many mining ops. Push it to V, and get a few quick levels of Wing Command, and you're suddenly at 30 or so members -- and that's only about 5 days of training. Not a biggie.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:13:00 - [88] Fix the Mining Foreman Mindlink Implant as well This is good news, it means that I am not training a gang alt for nothing hehe And I better start training Fleet Commander 5 asap so that I can command my entire alliance (and ofc Sovereignty 5). EVE-Files \| EVE-Search \| Monitor this Thread

Sha'Uri Dark Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:15:00 - [89] Sounds great, now not only do the characters need the right skills to lead but the players behind them will need the skills to lead. Quote: Commanders can only give gang bonuses and receive their own bonuses but can not receive bonuses from other commanders or normal members. A normal Squad Member how ever can receive bonuses from three possible parties: his Squad Commander, his Wing Commander or the daddy Fleet Commander himself. If I understand this correctly a base level squad member can in theory receive 3 gang bonuses from 1) his squad leader 2) his wing leader and 3) the fleet commander provided their all fitted to boost different things. Oh and evenly distributed stats FTW! ------------------------------------------------- As a Freelancer the thoughts and opinions contained within this post are my own. Don't like them feel free not to complain to me about them.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:15:00 - [90] Originally by: Mr Ninjaface All the wings and squad crap is just useless Speak for yourself. I think the fleet organization it gives you is a big bonus. I've been in too many fleets which have been total chaos due to confusing FC and poor organization. Sure, a good FC can overcome all that, but you don't always have the luxury of a good FC. Having the game enable you to organize scout wings, sniper wings, etc in a clear fashion is a big help, especially with the style of smaller gangs we tend to use in pirate hunts and empire warfare in general.
SonOTassadar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:22:00 - [91] Did anyone think "Battlefield 2" when he talked about broadcasts? ----- Griffin -- 100,000 ISK ECM - Multispectral Jammer Is -- 20,000 ISK Standar Missile Launcher Is -- 10,000 ISK War target sobbing over losing a fight in his T2 fitted Battleship -- priceless
Sister Bliss Elite United Corp Antigo Dominion	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:25:00 - [92] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Jet Collins Ok Queston? OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever. One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills. In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses. In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct? Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead. Hang on a second, this also implies that the leader does not get the bonus from the links it is running on its own ship, only the squad member does? This contradicts what the blog says, namely: Commanders can only give gang bonuses and receive their own bonuses* but can not receive bonuses from other commanders or normal members.* If this is correct then what you are saying is that "Any and all fleet/wing/squad commanders do not receive gang/link bonuses under any circumstances" ? I think that's a very poor decision considering the investment ppl have made in these skills (gang links), [not to mention the shield/armor resist ones are are stack nerfed to the point of uselessness]. At least allow the commanders to benefit from each others (and their own) links. All the other changes look good though.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:26:00 - [93] Originally by: Sha'Uri Dark Oh and evenly distributed stats FTW! Quite. I'm staring at my "Charisma 20" with much love atm. I expect the whinefest from the Charisma 3 brigade will be quite entertaining, once they figure things out.
Mr Ninjaface Minmatar Shurekin INC	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:27:00 - [94] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Mr Ninjaface All the wings and squad crap is just useless Speak for yourself. I think the fleet organization it gives you is a big bonus. I've been in too many fleets which have been total chaos due to confusing FC and poor organization. Sure, a good FC can overcome all that, but you don't always have the luxury of a good FC. Having the game enable you to organize scout wings, sniper wings, etc in a clear fashion is a big help, especially with the style of smaller gangs we tend to use in pirate hunts and empire warfare in general. This wont do crap for small gangs you might have 15 people or something so you have got 10 in squad 1, 1 fc 1 wing commander than you got 2 guys in squad 2 who dont get bonues from the guy in squad 1 because they got the short stick. Gang bonuses should affect the entire gang other wise you have to call them limited hierarchical bonuses of crap .
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:28:00 - [95] Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 07/11/2006 15:28:27 Actually... If gangs are getting an overhaul, does that mean we'll see more command and logistics related ships? It'd be nice also, with this concept that combat will be longer and ammo will begin to run out, if blockade runners played more of a part - eg with industrials having to resupply ammo for longer engagements. I see a T2 BS Flagship on the horizon... (though I just fear that people will run around in 5-man gangs, and not bother with fleet command at all) What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Daniel Jackson Caldari Department of Cold Nuclear Fusion	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:28:00 - [96] Originally by: SonOTassadar Did anyone think "Battlefield 2" when he talked about broadcasts? lol i was just about to say that, LOL yes yes it does, o speaken of bf2 BF2142 is also way cool, hehe ___________________
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:29:00 - [97] Originally by: Sister Bliss At least allow the commanders to benefit from each others (and their own) links. All the other changes look good though. Agreed. Commanders should definately benefit from the skills of other commanders. It makes ingame sense (they are working together, aren't they), and makes ooc sense (these people put a lot of effort and sp into their command skills, they need to get at least as much benefit from them as their "subordinates" do). Otherwise the job of a FC (or squad/wing lead) doesn't look very inviting. Lots of skills to train, lots of hassle, reduced personal reward.
Daniel Jackson Caldari Department of Cold Nuclear Fusion	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:30:00 - [98] any way, what about the mining implants, will they still work as usual, when u invite people to the gang ? or do they need to be commanders as wel? ___________________
D'Jannek Amarr StateCorp	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:34:00 - [99] I'm not really a fan of only getting gang bonuses from the commanders. As someone pointed out, in a fleet fight the FC is going to want to be able to lock and hit the same targets as his sniper BS, which may prove very difficult in a command ship. Also command ships aren't very well suited to, say, fast-moving tackler squadrons or whatnot. Then there's the whole "real life" leadership ability with in-game skills. It seems slightly silly to force the FC role on person A just because he's got really good gang skills, while person B is a much better commander. I would much prefer a system where each squad gets bonuses from the highest-skilled member of that squad (like the current gang system), so that it doesn't kill gang skills totally. This can perhaps be combined with giving an increase to gang bonus % for the squadron leader, to preserve the whole "specialising in leadership" thing you're evidently aiming for.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:37:00 - [100] Originally by: Smagd Erm, brother, it's in the blog: You form a regular gang (up to 256 whatever) but zero gang assist skills and modules and apply (nerf!). Well, maybe I'm just dense but the blog isn't totally clear, imho. So we can still have an old-style gang, and that has a max of 50 now? But then you can apparently convert that to a "fleet", even without any skills, and now suddenly the max size is 256? Wtf? Am I seriously misunderstanding something here? Why not use fleets in that case over gangs, and why the arbitrary cap of 50 in gangs? I thought the skills decided the size of the fleet (or squad/wing) you could form in the first place, but apparently they only determine who can act as leader, and you can have a "leaderless" 256-person "fleet" with no skills(?). Originally by: Smagd Then you skill the skills (and I somehow doubt you'll get a rank 8 skill to IV in 7 days with a low primary charisma attribute Why would I have a low charisma? Because some twinks think minimizing your charisma is always a good idea? Well, this is where they are proved a bit wrong. If you created a balanced character, I think that 7 days is in the right ballpark. If not, well, blame yourself.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:40:00 - [101] Originally by: Daniel Jackson any way, what about the mining implants, will they still work as usual, when u invite people to the gang ? or do they need to be commanders as wel? I think it's quite obvious they need to be commanders, since the implants give boost to gang modules, and it has been stated that all gang bonuses (skill, module) are only applied from the commander(s). But again, unless you have a silly-low Charisma, it's trivial to train Leadership V and a few levels of Wing Command, which in turn solves your problems.
Darpz Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:40:00 - [102] sorry don't like it. I like the interface changes, but I don't like the new gang setup for a numbers of reason It nerfs carriers and command ships hard since it forces them to be commanders for the gang bonus's to apply but this doesn't work normally because well carriers sit in safe/pos away from battle and command useually do that same or are support killers since they do not have the ablity to work at the ranges that battles happen. Its overly complex- yes its cool to read about but its just to complex. Running a fleet is complex enough without having to worry about inviting people into that mess. I can see TS now Person 1: X for gang FC: would a squadcommander invite him. SC1: sorry i'm full SC2: Sorry I'm full also SC4: Also Full SC5: yup same FC: SC3? SCI: he must be afk FC: ok will someone make a new squad? .... FC: so no else can make a squad? .... Person 1: nm i'm going ot play wow

TomB	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:41:00 - [103] Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon Question for TomB: Say me and 3 mates want to go into enemy space and... mine for scrap metal (yaarrr). We gang up like we used to, go in, and let the PEW PEW start. Same as before. But.... If we want gang bonuses, we need to designate a Fleet Commander, Wing Commander and Squadron Commander? Or, can I just designate Friend #3 as a Squadron Commander, with all of us in his squadron, leave Wing and Fleet Commander spots empty, and have the squadron commander give us gang bonuses? This could also be applied to mining: Have an SC, no FC or WC, and have the SC give the "Covetor Army" the mining foreman bonus? So I guess my first question is "can we create gangs with holes in upper management, but still have a squad commander boost our skills?" Also, for those people who mine most of the time, most of their SP are in industrial skills. If a gang needs an FC to get a bonus, isn't that nerfing most mining corps? You only need 2 people to get gang bonuses to work, Squadron Commander with level 1 Leadership and another member in that Squadron. The holes in the upper management doesn't inactivate your Squadron. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:42:00 - [104] The whole thing seems to be to complicated. And with future additions to what is allready coming... Well doesn't it appear to be more of a headache then a great feature? im trying to imagine a fleet battle small or big with this system with all the action going on with having an FC/wing/squad and... **** need to make a new sig...

TomB	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:47:00 - [105] Originally by: Sister Bliss Originally by: TomB Originally by: Jet Collins Ok Queston? OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever. One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills. In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses. In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct? Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead. Hang on a second, this also implies that the leader does not get the bonus from the links it is running on its own ship, only the squad member does? This contradicts what the blog says, namely: Commanders can only give gang bonuses and receive their own bonuses* but can not receive bonuses from other commanders or normal members.* If this is correct then what you are saying is that "Any and all fleet/wing/squad commanders do not receive gang/link bonuses under any circumstances" ? I think that's a very poor decision considering the investment ppl have made in these skills (gang links), [not to mention the shield/armor resist ones are are stack nerfed to the point of uselessness]. At least allow the commanders to benefit from each others (and their own) links. All the other changes look good though. Commanders can give bonuses, commanders receive the bonuses they give. They do not get bonuses from other commanders, i.e. Squad Commander does not receive bonuses from the Wing or Fleet Commander. The ONLY reason for this is a technical issue, it's on our list for fixes. This is how it is currently on the Test Server (SiSi). TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

Mr Ninjaface Minmatar Shurekin INC	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:48:00 - [106] TomB you added all the board cast stuff etc (i need cap armor/shield) The current targeting system makes cap transfers sheild transfers hard during battle if you have say a cap transfer on your apoc but you also have 7 turrets. You then have to lock you friend and cap transfer him then in the heat of the battle remember not to start shooting the crap out of him because hes locked. Can we have a sperate locking system for gang mates on that you cant activate hostile modules on unless you specify that you want to do so or something.

TomB	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:49:00 - [107] Originally by: Mr Ninjaface Gang bonuses should affect the entire gang other wise you have to call them limited hierarchical bonuses of crap . No. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:50:00 - [108] Originally by: Darpz sorry don't like it. I like the interface changes, but I don't like the new gang setup for a numbers of reason It nerfs carriers and command ships hard since it forces them to be commanders for the gang bonus's to apply but this doesn't work normally because well carriers sit in safe/pos away from battle and command useually do that same or are support killers since they do not have the ablity to work at the ranges that battles happen. That's a valid complaint. I pretyt much like the new system because it fits the style of battles that we have -- but that's mostly smaller-scale Empire warfare and antipirate fights, and small and medium range. For 0.0. fleet/sniper warfare, I guess it's a valid complaint that there are atm no suitable "command ships" for fleet commanders. Of course, you could try having the FC in whatever ship he/she wants, and having the wing commanders in command ships. You don't need to have the FC give all the bonuses for everyone, you can share out that stuff -- which is also a good idea because not flying a command ship means the FC isn't an automatic primary But yeah, I can see some of the problems. I have zero-to-no experience with long-range 0.0 fleet warfare, we do most of our fighting in lowsec Empire. If this change goes through as planned, there is clearly a need for a fleet command ship (one that has enough targeting range for fleet ops, at least, and can run command modules). Of course, that would become an automatic primary, but... win some, lose some
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:52:00 - [109] Originally by: TomB Commanders can give bonuses, commanders receive the bonuses they give. They do not get bonuses from other commanders, i.e. Squad Commander does not receive bonuses from the Wing or Fleet Commander. The ONLY reason for this is a technical issue, it's on our list for fixes. This is how it is currently on the Test Server (SiSi). Ah. Cool. I was wondering why that "commanders get no benefit from each other" thing was there, this clears that point up.
Adam C 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:52:00 - [110] best thing to come out of kali I im really dreading alot of the other stuff though going by the test server
LC Sulla BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:52:00 - [111] Any chance of a cruiser (force recon maybe) capable of housing a gang link module. Will be needed for fast moving recon squads.

TomB	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:53:00 - [112] Originally by: Darpz sorry don't like it. I like the interface changes, but I don't like the new gang setup for a numbers of reason It nerfs carriers and command ships hard since it forces them to be commanders for the gang bonus's to apply but this doesn't work normally because well carriers sit in safe/pos away from battle and command useually do that same or are support killers since they do not have the ablity to work at the ranges that battles happen. Its overly complex- yes its cool to read about but its just to complex. Running a fleet is complex enough without having to worry about inviting people into that mess. I can see TS now Person 1: X for gang FC: would a squadcommander invite him. SC1: sorry i'm full SC2: Sorry I'm full also SC4: Also Full SC5: yup same FC: SC3? SCI: he must be afk FC: ok will someone make a new squad? .... FC: so no else can make a squad? .... Person 1: nm i'm going ot play wow FC: hey wait I can invite anyone into any squad... WC1: oh yeah I can invite anyone to any squad in my wing! FC: dude I can even create a new squad and move some dude from some other squad to a commander position of it WC2: I mean that's so cool Gang Creator: hey I can do everything that the fleet commander can do, move people around and invite TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

Mongo Smith Amarr	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:54:00 - [113] Thanks for the prompt responses TomB. Not sure if its been mentioned before or not, one feature that would be useful would be the ability to rename each wing/fleet/squadron to aid in the organisation.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:55:00 - [114] Originally by: Mr Ninjaface TomB you added all the board cast stuff etc (i need cap armor/shield) The current targeting system makes cap transfers sheild transfers hard during battle if you have say a cap transfer on your apoc but you also have 7 turrets. You then have to lock you friend and cap transfer him then in the heat of the battle remember not to start shooting the crap out of him because hes locked. Can we have a sperate locking system for gang mates on that you cant activate hostile modules on unless you specify that you want to do so or something. Agreed. How about just a blanket much-faster locktime on your squadron mates, for instance? We all agree that Logistics still needs some help in order for it to become useful in fleets, and one of the major gripes is the slow locktime on gangmates. If being in the same squadron gave a locktime bonus on each other, that imho would help logistics nicely.
Adam C 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:55:00 - [115] and why no videos and such saving it for the fanfest ? you guys really know howto starve our evelust ^^
EvilNate Caldari Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:58:00 - [116] zomg!! This stuff is really so fracking cool. I have a question about the new gang system that doesn't relate to pvp at all. Currently in pretty much any MMORPG, when a player does a mission/quest/whatever, he is able to share that mission/quest/whatever with another player. That player can the recieve a split of the LP and standings gains too. Any chance we will see this implemented any time in the next 2837492874 years? Nate
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:58:00 - [117] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Darpz sorry don't like it. I like the interface changes, but I don't like the new gang setup for a numbers of reason It nerfs carriers and command ships hard since it forces them to be commanders for the gang bonus's to apply but this doesn't work normally because well carriers sit in safe/pos away from battle and command useually do that same or are support killers since they do not have the ablity to work at the ranges that battles happen. Its overly complex- yes its cool to read about but its just to complex. Running a fleet is complex enough without having to worry about inviting people into that mess. I can see TS now Person 1: X for gang FC: would a squadcommander invite him. SC1: sorry i'm full SC2: Sorry I'm full also SC4: Also Full SC5: yup same FC: SC3? SCI: he must be afk FC: ok will someone make a new squad? .... FC: so no else can make a squad? .... Person 1: nm i'm going ot play wow FC: hey wait I can invite anyone into any squad... WC1: oh yeah I can invite anyone to any squad in my wing! FC: dude I can even create a new squad and move some dude from some other squad to a commander position of it WC2: I mean that's so cool Gang Creator: hey I can do everything that the fleet commander can do, move people around and invite So an FC can create a squad, move someone into it to be commander, that does not have the skills in the first place to create a squad? so one only needs one FC ever to create a fleet? same for bonuses? **** need to make a new sig...
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:59:00 - [118] Originally by: Mongo Smith Thanks for the prompt responses TomB. Not sure if its been mentioned before or not, one feature that would be useful would be the ability to rename each wing/fleet/squadron to aid in the organisation. Seconded on both counts. Thanks for the feedback TomB, and yes, being able to give names to squadrons/wings would be very nice and would reduce the confusion. "Snipers" is a lot less confusion-inducing than "Squadron 2"
Mr Ninjaface Minmatar Shurekin INC	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:00:00 - [119] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Mr Ninjaface TomB you added all the board cast stuff etc (i need cap armor/shield) The current targeting system makes cap transfers sheild transfers hard during battle if you have say a cap transfer on your apoc but you also have 7 turrets. You then have to lock you friend and cap transfer him then in the heat of the battle remember not to start shooting the crap out of him because hes locked. Can we have a sperate locking system for gang mates on that you cant activate hostile modules on unless you specify that you want to do so or something. Agreed. How about just a blanket much-faster locktime on your squadron mates, for instance? We all agree that Logistics still needs some help in order for it to become useful in fleets, and one of the major gripes is the slow locktime on gangmates. If being in the same squadron gave a locktime bonus on each other, that imho would help logistics nicely. hardly worried about lock time but for example. you ask for cap your gang mate locks you and starts cap transfers while fighting some other guy. FC calls a new target say a BC. The guy locks it and activates his guns (f1-7 (8 is cap transfer)) But then before he gets his guns off guy in squad 2 in his maelstrom gets a wreaking hit from 3 of his guns and the BC insta pops. Your guns then cycle to the guy your cap transfering because suddenly as you activated your weapons your target was gone.
Paddlefoot Aeon Neogen Industries Serenity Fallen	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:00:00 - [120] Yeah TomB... thanks for the quick response. Naming each squad (Blue, Red, Green, etc...) might help when issuing orders on a larger scale operation.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:03:00 - [121] Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon Yeah TomB... thanks for the quick response. Naming each squad (Blue, Red, Green, etc...) might help when issuing orders on a larger scale operation. We demand a Pink Squad!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:06:00 - [122] Originally by: Mr Ninjaface hardly worried about lock time but for example. you ask for cap your gang mate locks you and starts cap transfers while fighting some other guy. FC calls a new target say a BC. The guy locks it and activates his guns (f1-7 (8 is cap transfer)) But then before he gets his guns off guy in squad 2 in his maelstrom gets a wreaking hit from 3 of his guns and the BC insta pops. Your guns then cycle to the guy your cap transfering because suddenly as you activated your weapons your target was gone. Ah, yeah. I've done the friendly fire vs logistics thing myself once Not sure how to solve that, tbh.
Raucha A.W.M	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:11:00 - [123] Just because you're in a SC/WC/FC slot, doesn't mean you actually have to be in command of anything. Well, OK the FC/WC probably will be, but the SCs sure don't. If the WC can warp the Wing, the SCs can just hang out for the ride. Or, the SC/WC can be navigator and admin type, while another member of the gang uses something like, I dunno, TS or Vent to actually tell everyone what to do. That's how it works in a lot of gangs now anyways - gang leader does navigation and admin, while someone else in the gang actually directs the fight.
Celestis Kudzu	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:18:00 - [124] Originally by: Kanuo Ashkeron What happens if someone has fleet/wing command not at level 5? Can he still form a fleet/wing and his bonuses only apply to a part of it? Or are there no bonuses at all if the fleet/wing exceeds his maximum size (skillwise)? Kanuo
Umbriele Gallente Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:18:00 - [125] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Sensi Milla A gang limit of 50 will needlessly cripple alliance combat when Kali hits, since nobody will be able to train the skills until they are released - and even then, with good skills it will take at least a month to match a 50 man gang limit. You'll be capable of having a Fleet of 256 members right away, the only problem is that you won't be capable of having the Fleet Commander active until he has sufficient skills to run an army of that size. So the only difference is that this single Commander can't be giving gang bonuses to this big group of players. TomB, how this will apply to mining gang bonuses? Do we need commanders to get the mining foreman bonuses and the (still broken) mindlink bonus?
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:26:00 - [126] TomB, what about this scenario: A Wing of 5 Squads, with a Wingleader without Gang Mods. Squad 1 has a Squad Leader with Gang Mods. Squad 1 gets the gang bonus, the rest does not. (This makes sense) You stated that only one Gang Bonus is given to an entire gang, so what happens if: Squad 2 has a person with Gang Mods join, and he's made leader. Can he run his own Gang Mods (which again only affect his Squad), alongside Squad 1s, or does the 1-bonus-per-gang limit apply? It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Umbriele Gallente Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:27:00 - [127] Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: Kai Lae One of the biggest problems is that CCP have forgotten to seed these new skills on the test server, so currently it's impossible to test it out for bugs :) BAH I'll get right on it Contracting skill too please....
Andargor theWise Disbelievers of Fate The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:27:00 - [128] Will there be an autopromote feature? You could tag your direct subordinates in order to take your place in case you pop, if they have the skills. Also, will ships spotted by scouts appear on the map. "Enemy Spotted" usually doesn't cut it for an FC, he/she needs ship composition and complement as well, if there's a bubble, etc. - Got grief?
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:29:00 - [129] Originally by: Raucha Just because you're in a SC/WC/FC slot, doesn't mean you actually have to be in command of anything. Well, OK the FC/WC probably will be, but the SCs sure don't. If the WC can warp the Wing, the SCs can just hang out for the ride. Or, the SC/WC can be navigator and admin type, while another member of the gang uses something like, I dunno, TS or Vent to actually tell everyone what to do. That's how it works in a lot of gangs now anyways - gang leader does navigation and admin, while someone else in the gang actually directs the fight. Well, the SC would be needed to give bonuses to that squad, if your caring about bonuses.
El Yatta Caldari Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:29:00 - [130] I am a little confused but I am sure once I can test it out it will be good. I love the broadcasts and the idea that you need to keep your commander alive. This is good stuff Tomb!! Two major concerns though: 1) You say that commanders not reciveing other people's bonuses is a technical issue, but then seem to dismiss it as insignificant. Its really not! This MUST be fixed before Revelations comes out, its just crushing for smaller groups who dont have the luxury of lots of non-command people to receive the bonuses, and really need the commander to be fighting at full ability with the rest of the squad. Its not acceptable for it to be left lying around for months, as it just penalises small gangs and highly-specialised people. 2) How does it work for a small gang (6-10) that frequently uses two command ships separate from the normal ganglead? (so two people distributing bonuses from modules, and one calling targets, gangwarping and also has some gang skills so gives some minor bonuses there). I am guessing that such a small group (that has trained carefully to use the exact combinations that work for them to high specialisations, and work together as a team) would have the rather clumsy system of forming two squads in a wing, with the (actual tactician) commander as a Wing Commander, the two command ships as Squad Leaders, (Despite the fact that there's few enough people that only one squad and one squad commander would be normally needed) and therefore everyone would get their needed bonuses (EXCEPT the Wing Commander unless you fix that issue above)? OR: can the second wing not receive benefits from the first wing's command ship/leader, so in fact the only way to get the bonuses around in this system is to form a FLEET (for TEN people??) and have one command ship as the Wing commander, the second as the squad commander, and the poor actual commander has to train up to be a Fleet Commander? If the former its not a problem with the system as such, its just very inelegant for small gang combat. Imagine that, as sometimes we do, such a small gang wanted to use all 4 command ships, giving very powerful bonuses across their small gang, but sacrificing 4 damage ships (or only using one link on field commands) for that benefit, they would need to form 4 squads in a wing to get the benefit they have specialised for so long in. If the latter it is completely contradictory to your stated goal: "The reason for this change is to make more use of gang command/bonus based characters and to make specialized characters that focus on gangs a more common choice for players." In large situations MANY people will need these high-demand skills (ok!), and in small gang situations nobody will bother with command ships because to get some nice combos of bonuses you will have to have half your corp "in command"!. This is a nasty, unneeded nerf to small gang combat if so. ---\|\|---
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:35:00 - [131] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Two step Does the bonus comign from squadron, wing and fleet commanders mean that you can get 3 bonuses stacked? Or is it just the highest bonus like it is now? Highest bonus counts, like how it is now. But you will be able to get 3 different bonuses though right. Just not be able to stack 3 identical bonsuses.
Lily Savage CryoTech	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:36:00 - [132] FC in a carrier at a safe spot - how's he going to call targets? Can other ppl apart from the FC call targets?
PCX339 Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:37:00 - [133] I know it's been mentioned but PLEASE make the gang window detachable in some way. Right now the overview + drones + gang = not enough space. Any drone or fighter user who wants to monitor the status of his units in space will run out of space VERY fast. Just adding my voice to the din...
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:40:00 - [134] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/11/2006 16:45:22 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/11/2006 16:43:33 Originally by: Lily Savage FC in a carrier at a safe spot - how's he going to call targets? Can other ppl apart from the FC call targets? Maybe, just maybe, CCP doesn't want you to park your carrier (and FC) in a safespot. Not that it would be very smart in Kali, anyway. The new probe system looks like it will make safespots something you don't want to sit in for over half a minute if there's a hostile covops in the same system. Busting them will be easy and ultrafast, especially when looking for big ships like a carrier.
Frools The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:40:00 - [135] Originally by: Lily Savage FC in a carrier at a safe spot - how's he going to call targets? Can other ppl apart from the FC call targets? guess you'd just have to call targets the old fashioned way, over vent/ts
NightmareX Caldari MAFIA Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:45:00 - [136] TomB, is the 'Warp To 0km' option going to hit TQ, yes or no?, or are that only on sisi to reduce some lag since sisi can't handle so many peoples atm? I hope you can answer on this
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:47:00 - [137] Originally by: NightmareX TomB, is the 'Warp To 0km' option going to hit TQ, yes or no?, or are that only on sisi to reduce some lag since sisi can't handle so many peoples atm? I hope you can answer on this I asked twice allready here, but no answer **** need to make a new sig...
Lily Savage CryoTech	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:49:00 - [138] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/11/2006 16:45:22 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/11/2006 16:43:33 Originally by: Lily Savage FC in a carrier at a safe spot - how's he going to call targets? Can other ppl apart from the FC call targets? Maybe, just maybe, CCP doesn't want you to park your carrier (and FC) in a safespot. Not that it would be very smart in Kali, anyway. The new probe system looks like it will make safespots something you don't want to sit in for over half a minute if there's a hostile covops in the same system. Busting them will be easy and ultrafast, especially when looking for big ships like a carrier. I think you're right, but as previously noted, the FC is going to be a big target #1. Perhaps fleets are intended to look like scaled up models of ASCN's team in the last championships? A kind of armour repping circle jerk?
NightmareX Caldari MAFIA Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:49:00 - [139] Originally by: Sir Juri Originally by: NightmareX TomB, is the 'Warp To 0km' option going to hit TQ, yes or no?, or are that only on sisi to reduce some lag since sisi can't handle so many peoples atm? I hope you can answer on this I asked twice allready here, but no answer Yeah i know, so i just thinked oh well lets ask him to, maybe he will answer then
Miranda Duvall Gallente OPM Holdings	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:51:00 - [140] Edited by: Miranda Duvall on 07/11/2006 16:53:37 Would it be possible to get a skill rename? Just for clarity.. As it stands now: you can command a fleet: Fleet Command you can command a wing: Wing Command you can command a squadron: Leadership you are very good with gang modules: Squadron Command Please change it into: Current "Leadership" becomes "Squadron Command" Current "Squadron Command" becomes "Warfare Link Specialist" All the names then actually reflect what they do, keeping the current "Squadron Command" as is will generate a lot of confusion, and if you're ever going to change it, now is the time, since it's all new to all of us anyway. skills top 20 My skill list
SengH Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:51:00 - [141] Are gang bonuses still subject to the limitation that they affect people in the same system and undocked? If so wouldn't a logical compromise be to allow gang bonuses to affect people not in the same system, given the new restrictions. (With increasing range as fleet/wing command skill increases (its a rank 12 skill ffs). ---------------------------------------- Back for a month cus Awu5 finished.....
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:59:00 - [142] I have a question: You say that the Commanders not recieving each others bonuses is a bug that'll be fixed. So lets pretend its already fixed. Me and my mate decide to go yaaaaar for a bit. I have Skirmish Warfare 5, he has Siege Warfare 5. Would it be possible for me to make myself Wing Command, and him Squadron command? Say there are 3 of us, Could I be Fleet Com, matey#1 be Wing Com, and matey#2 be Squad Com (so #2 gets all bonuses, #1 gets his and mine bonuses) despite there being no actual Squad Members? In other words, is it possible to have everyone in gang Commanders (all up to 31 of us) with no members? Seems a bit silly. Anyhow, love the whole new Gang thing. EVE just got many deggrees better -----------------------------------------------
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:04:00 - [143] I like the general idea, but I have got a big issue with the whole plan is that of the gang assist modules only being applied to the people you command. If this goes through, to use gang assists you have to become an exceptionally obvious target or lose a lot of the functionality of the new system. It's a massive change to the way anyone using gang assists play, you have to now assume a front line command role or your screwed. I can understand why having to check so many peoples skills in large gangs causes lag, but can we not have a gang support role assignable like the current scout role? If the leader of the formation isn't using gang modules they can set one person to be their proxy instead? So for instance the Fleet Commander could set one pilot as Gang Support instead of themself and that person would then affect the entire fleet. Then each Wing Commander could do the same?
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:08:00 - [144] you already are a taget when running gang assist mods, cause the only ones wo can run tham are BC's. It's pretty east to pck out who is running the mods.
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:10:00 - [145] Edited by: Hardin on 07/11/2006 17:13:40 Okay I have read through the blog and all the replies and I am still confused. I trained my Hardin account (over six months on Command Ships/Leadership skills) to fly a ****ation specifically set up to boost a gangs skills. I also have a second account which is my active PvPer. The entire logic behind this was that I could bring in Hardin with the fleet, go to safe and give entire gang benefit of my specialised siege warfare skills from behind the front lines. Old Hardin was never an up close and personal kinda pilot This allowed me (not being a great multitasker) to get on and enjoy the dirty action with Siobhan my PvP focused account while Hardin ate his sandwiches and watched the scanner for probes. So what I am being told now is: a) Hardin now needs to command either a fleet, squadron or squad in order to convey bonuses. Correct? b) Hardin now has to be in the same grid as the action to provide his bonuses - making him a primary target. Correct? It seems nonsensical to me that commanders who historically stay away from the frontlines to direct operations are being forced into the thick of the action. It's like asking Napoleon to lead the line at Waterloo or Rommel to captain the first tank into action at El Alamein. It is in my mind counter-intuitive that people who have trained for command ships should be forced to get themselves killed because of that choice - especially when there was no warning that this change was in the pipeline. c) If I understand correctly the 'fleet commanders' skills now dominate the entire fleet (if the appropriate gang command skills have been trained and squads activated). So what happens when you have two command ships in gang - one of whom has trained up on skirmish warfare and has a mind control link and the other who has specialised in siege warfare and has a mind link. Do both sets of bonuses apply across the entire fleet - or only the bonuses of the highest ranked command ship pilot (fleet commander)... I ask this as many people actually consulted each other and chose specific gang boost skills to complement each other and that seems to have been a tad of a waste. Maybe I am being dense but I this does seem overly complicated and I am a believer in keeping things simple. I suppose we will have to see how it plays out. ------------------------------ Blog's back - for now
SengH Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:11:00 - [146] Also theres another issue I would like to bring up. In the current state you could hide your presence relatively well in the current gang systems from spies on TS/in gang. With the new gang system, your name is broadcast to everyone in your gang showing that you are broadcasting gang mods if your fleet command.Any hostile fleet will scan you down (with the new probing system) and nail you off the bat. Will there be an option to "compartmentalize" information allowing people only to see 1 tier above their current status? and only within their squad/wing/fleet? ---------------------------------------- Back for a month cus Awu5 finished.....
Jacob Majestic ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:15:00 - [147] Does this mean that from a practical standpoint the "rank and file" can only have three separate sets of gang mods acting on them at any point in time? Wing Commander -- 3 skirmish mods + mindlink Fleet Commander -- 3 siege mods + mindlink Squad Commander -- 3 armor mods + mindlink Furthermore, say that a squad commander in this hypothetical fleet has trained up skirmish mods instead of armor mods. This means that his specialization is essentially worthless because there will be overlap with the wing commander, correct? Also, I'd like to suggest a further change. Bonuses at a particular level should apply within a set context. For example, wing command bonuses should apply in a regional context, fleet command bonuses in a constellation context, and squad command bonuses in a system context. Or perhaps constellation, system, and grid, to encourage the commanders to be closer to the action. Or perhaps include a skill to widen the context (grid, system, constellation, region, anywhere).
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:17:00 - [148] Originally by: jeNK "Milking the cash cow" springs to mind. So we have pvp alts/mains Industrial alts Research alts + more (capital alts/mains?) and now gang alts. That just shows how borked and broken the SP system is. When I started playing the CCP statement was; quote: "you cannot max out a character in a month, more like 3 years". Where do we stand now? 17+ real life years under ideal circumstances (+5 implants)? I have 3 character slots on my account, let me max out a character once every 3 years, that would still mean I'd be a subscriber for 9 years. Heck I wouldnt quit because my character would be maxed out anyway, I'm playing the game for content not to have that content locked away for tens of real life years because of a skillsystem. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery
Galimiy Portret Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:18:00 - [149] It all looks very interesting. Well, it is hard to tell now how the system is going to actually function. I understand that devs wanted command ships to be what they are named after i.e. commanding position. Anyway, I feel that there could be some potential problems. I feel that coupling the commanding position with the gang boosting position is actually putting a lot of weight on one single role as compared to other squad members. Also, it makes the leader very vulnerable by forcing him to be on the frontline in an expensive commandship which does not actually give any actual LEADERSHIP bonii, but rather SUPPORT bonii. That couples the commanding role with the support role and forces them to be on the frontline. As it is right now, a clever FC will use a CovOps to stay out of harms way and still be able to command the battle. Forcing him in a command ship puts up a very, very, very big sign in pink colour saying: "Shoot me first!". I mean, killing the FC is half way to winning the battle. Another theoretical experiment. Imagine an inty wing or a tackler wing. If you want them to have bonii you will need to have a command ship in the wing. That is kinda, umm, kinky, having an inty wing warping around with a command ship. Well, now that we don't know how it will actually play out, these are just some thoughts. :) ...and PLEASE implement "Warp to 0" on TQ! :) Thanks.
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:25:00 - [150] I like the idea's and some of those features are real nice but i can't help think it's all a bit too complicated for "real world" use. I think every eve dev needs to stop for a good few weeks and start playing the game. Alot of the recent idea's sound great in theory but EVERY dev should be playing the game and at the same time asking themselves the question "Is this fun?". -----
Galimiy Portret Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:29:00 - [151] Also, I think that the problem is that gang boosting, which, I believe, is a SUPPORT action is being incorrectly mixed up with commanding, which is a LEADERSHIP action. :) Just to clarify my thoughts. :)
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:30:00 - [152] Originally by: EvilNate zomg!! This stuff is really so fracking cool. I have a question about the new gang system that doesn't relate to pvp at all. Currently in pretty much any MMORPG, when a player does a mission/quest/whatever, he is able to share that mission/quest/whatever with another player. That player can the recieve a split of the LP and standings gains too. Any chance we will see this implemented any time in the next 2837492874 years? Nate Absolutely NOT. This is why most other MMORPG go straight to hell. In DAOC for example, a guy has 3 high level characters in a 'gang' with a new one he just created. So they go into a very hard place and start to fight with some very interesting macros. If a monster hit the newbee, he is instantly killed. One macro is taking the group to a monster if there is'nt one in front of them. One macro is reviving the newbee char each time he is killed. Other macro make them all attack. So each time a monster died, it's shared between the 'gang' members and thus the newbee go up in level. The guy let the macros run when he sleep or at work and each 3 weeks, he has a nice new medium-high level character to sell for RL money (about 100$ depending on competiton). In Eve, it's impossible to do that because of how the skills system work. But thoses that still sell character would be too happy to raise their standing that way, AND, we should'nt have people in large gang like Bob be able to get anything faster than everyone else just because they are able to form bigger gang. They already have the 'large numbers' bonus with all that come with it.
Ather Ialeas Amarr Karjala Inc. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:32:00 - [153] Edited by: Ather Ialeas on 07/11/2006 17:32:22 Hmmh, so you have to be a commander to be able to share out gangmod stuff...ok, that's enough of a reason for me not to train for Absolution/**ation (I'm only month away from **ation atm) since I wanted to be a supportive member of the gang, not its leader. It has been proven that my real leadership skills suck so badly that I'd end up just killing my squad no matter what sort of Jove Wtfpwnmod I'd be running on it. Well, at least I now can divert my ISK to my other projects, like...uh...hmm. EDIT: Wonderful, the profanity filter attacks a name that is set by CCP itself
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:34:00 - [154] Originally by: Pick Me Originally by: EvilNate zomg!! This stuff is really so fracking cool. I have a question about the new gang system that doesn't relate to pvp at all. Currently in pretty much any MMORPG, when a player does a mission/quest/whatever, he is able to share that mission/quest/whatever with another player. That player can the recieve a split of the LP and standings gains too. Any chance we will see this implemented any time in the next 2837492874 years? Nate Absolutely NOT. This is why most other MMORPG go straight to hell. In DAOC for example, a guy has 3 high level characters in a 'gang' with a new one he just created. So they go into a very hard place and start to fight with some very interesting macros. If a monster hit the newbee, he is instantly killed. One macro is taking the group to a monster if there is'nt one in front of them. One macro is reviving the newbee char each time he is killed. Other macro make them all attack. So each time a monster died, it's shared between the 'gang' members and thus the newbee go up in level. The guy let the macros run when he sleep or at work and each 3 weeks, he has a nice new medium-high level character to sell for RL money (about 100$ depending on competiton). In Eve, it's impossible to do that because of how the skills system work. But thoses that still sell character would be too happy to raise their standing that way, AND, we should'nt have people in large gang like Bob be able to get anything faster than everyone else just because they are able to form bigger gang. They already have the 'large numbers' bonus with all that come with it. Eh... whatever, I want co-op missions to, solo is sooo ** boring and missions allready is boring so having co-op would be a nice feature, perhaps only in lowsec-0.0 as I hope all missions above level 2 will be in lowsec and 0.0 anyway. ** need to make a new sig...
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:37:00 - [155] /me wonders what has happened to the Squadron Command skill on Sing .. Not only is it unavailable to buy but its missing from my Characte Sheet too MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Notleh Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:39:00 - [156] TomB: As it stands right now on Tranq there are Leadership and Squadron Command skills. Wing Command is unavailable. On Sisi there are Leadership, Wing Commander, and Fleet Commander, but NO Squadron Command skill. Since the Leadership skill will basically make you a Squadron Commander, will the Squadron Command skill make you a Wing Commander? In other words, if I already have Squadron Command trained to 5, when Revelations comes out will that skill switch to Wing Commander 5 (like the Guristas Encryp Methods is changing to Caldari Encrypt Methods)? If not, what happened to Squadron Command and what will happen to people whom have already trained it?
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:45:00 - [157] Originally by: DrAtomic Originally by: jeNK "Milking the cash cow" springs to mind. So we have pvp alts/mains Industrial alts Research alts + more (capital alts/mains?) and now gang alts. That just shows how borked and broken the SP system is. When I started playing the CCP statement was; quote: "you cannot max out a character in a month, more like 3 years". Where do we stand now? 17+ real life years under ideal circumstances (+5 implants)? I have 3 character slots on my account, let me max out a character once every 3 years, that would still mean I'd be a subscriber for 9 years. Heck I wouldnt quit because my character would be maxed out anyway, I'm playing the game for content not to have that content locked away for tens of real life years because of a skillsystem. You cannot max out, it's specialization, in whatever you like so you are better than other that did'nt specialize in that. Now if you find it annoying and useless, you can change and start to train another specialization but you can always get back as you did'nt lose any old skill nor did you have to buy another character. It's also nice to know that anyone you came across won't be a expert in all damage type, all ship type, all electronic warfare type... He will have FLAWS, just like you. I don't see a problem in that design.
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:49:00 - [158] Originally by: Sir Juri Eh... whatever, I want co-op missions to, solo is sooo **** boring and missions allready is boring so having co-op would be a nice feature, perhaps only in lowsec-0.0 as I hope all missions above level 2 will be in lowsec and 0.0 anyway. Nothing prevent level 4 and 5 missions to be given to a 'group' (corp or gang) so that when they come back successfully, the isk is shared by the game mechanics. Problem is that now, players decide how they share the loot (they cannot get all the same faction mod for example, so everyone has the freedom to choose to split as they wish). I think that's the next thing with factionnal warfare. Maybe even group with stranger to do missions where the loot will be 'fairly' distributed between the participants. Oh and, before I forget... ...and PLEASE NEVER implement "Warp to 0" on TQ! :) Invalidate all BM and prevent creating new one in the same grid as gates (would annoy sniper a little). Thanks.
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:59:00 - [159] Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 07/11/2006 18:05:13 The fact that the overall fleet commander doesn't get any bonus's from the subcommanders is super lame. I've had guys training this stuff for months so that we could share bonus's... And by forcing fleet commanders to have good gang skills and forcing good gang skill players to be decent fleet commanders you have taken yet another real life skill aspect out of the game. Not completely, better commanders with tons of leadership skillpoints will still be better than crappy commanders with tons of leadership skillpoints...but you could have a brilliant 2 month old player who just wouldn't be able to command the fleet properly because of lack of skills. That is lame. CCP might as well start shipping us 20 sided dice so that we can roll to see who wins the fight. What makes eve unique is that real life skill has always meant a lot more than skillpoints in game. This reality is steadily slipping away. (scan probes anybody?, Automatic Orbit? Nerfage of anyting that moves fast?) EDIT: I see the only reason the bonus's won't apply to the overall commander is because you're having trouble going up the tree. Stop sucking. Shamis
Joram McRory Caldari eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 18:10:00 - [160] Nice ideas, but the requirment for (yet more) skills f*cks it all up IMO. There are plenty of time sinks for pvpers without every FC having to train up any more. It also ruins flexibility and takes no notice of RL - say i have a fleet or wing under my command and have to log for a bit - that's it, the whole fleet/wing is completley buggered if no one else has the skills. Verdict 6 out of 10 - must try harder Joram My Photography site
pardux The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.07 18:16:00 - [161] Is the fleet command skill still rank 14 ? And when did anyone ever have any use for the health bar thingie in a gang bigger then 5 people o_O ? :\| should just remove it and reduce lag, or make that happen when gangs get bigger then 30. Useing the overview to call targets is useless since your faster doing that with ts and either the targets warp out after 5sec or blow up. And if i get it right if you warp out and back in you wont see the target anyway. broadcast system will be nice for small gangs , but useless for big fleets.
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.07 18:30:00 - [162] Thanks TomB the changes look pretty slick actually. And with the advent of Capitals recieving tons of HP there are definate reasons why I would park on the front lines. Is there any possibility to further increase that incentive with allowing 2-3 gang modules active on a carrier? Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Br0wn 0ps	Posted - 2006.11.07 18:35:00 - [163] I like everything except for the fact that the bonuses are not applied to the commanders from the higher level commanders, but since it is on the list to fix, should be okay. Only question I have, is why the separation between gang and fleets, if the only difference is whether or not gang bonuses are applied???
marcouk2 Gallente Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.07 18:41:00 - [164] Originally by: Rafein you already are a taget when running gang assist mods, cause the only ones wo can run tham are BC's. It's pretty east to pck out who is running the mods. Unless you had the sense to have the gang mod people in an ss in the system, which the new organistion takes out, as the fc now has to be on the frontline and in a bc. Aka insta-primary
Seppel da'FinNI Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.07 18:51:00 - [165] First thing that surprised me, is this sentence, i quote "Commanders can only give gang bonuses and receive their own bonuses but can not receive bonuses from other commanders or normal members." - does this actually say, that a squad commander will not receive bonuses from his fleet commander? This does not make much sense, at least to me it does not. Now lets imagine some situations. You have a nice fleet together and divide it according to tasks. One Squad for EW with lots of Scorpions, Rooks and Lachesis' and a nice Eos with all the Information Warfare Links - nice. Another Squad, maybe two with your main BS bulk, widely known as Damagedealers. Well, lets give them hmm a Sleipnir with a Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuverings to reduce Signatur Radius. Fleet Commander sits in a ****ation or Vulture, depending on the prefered tanking - armor vs shield. So far so good. Now what is missing? Right - tacklers .. well, what could these guys use best? Hmm.. Some speed bonus, bonus to propulsion jamming would be nice, too. Ok, lets give it to them. Claymore.. now how fast is this baby going? MWD'ing up to 2km/s if you are good - how is this gonna keep up with all those interceptors rushing by at 6+km/s? How will it lead its squad members effectively, if it is not in the same place? Can we have a "transmit view" button for squad commanders? Well, this will be a problem. And it does not stop here. Your commanders will be _very_ vulnerable to enemy fire, because they cannot cloak (warfare links dont work while cloaked) and you loose a _huge_ advantage gained by gangboni if you have your commanders not sitting in command ships. How is a commander able to see a hostile camp for himself while trapped in a bulky command ship? right, not at all. There is a good reason why a lot of FCs nowadays tend to fly covert ops ships. And why we have specialized pilots with gang skills and mindlink implants - they want to do this, but they dont want to have all the fleet control buttons just because they trained for giving gang boni. Suggestion: Introduce a fleet support wing, which has only 4 slots (maybe even less, so people have to choose) to house battlecruisers / command ships and have these boni count for all gang members. The rest of the structure is nice, but when did some commander look after reinforcements personally? they have staff for that. and why? to be able to concentrate on what they should do - leading their troops into battle (and win). All i was saying could be said in two sentences: Dont make it harder for FCs. Dont overspecialize. Thank you for your attention, have a nice day. Seppel life's a game - sometimes you loose, most times others win.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.11.07 18:58:00 - [166] you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead.
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:01:00 - [167] Originally by: Serapis Aote you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead. He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features.
Cadman Weyland ISS Navy Task Force	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:03:00 - [168] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Jet Collins Ok Queston? OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever. One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills. In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses. In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct? If so this compleatly blows. Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead. That truely sux to be honest. So ive trained all the gang skills for nothing basically. Thanks a bunch. Not often i dislike changes in game, this one i really dont like.
Fubear Vogon Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:06:00 - [169] Is there any method of delegating gang command functions without giving up the fleet command position. There are two types of people here who essentially get screwed over: 1) People who like to command but dont have/want the gang bonus skills. 2) People who have trained into command ships with gang bonus skills who don't want to command. I fear the changes will force gangs to be led by people with SP over people who actually have the ability to organise and command people. EXAMPLES I have Wing Command IV with 40 of my buddies in four squads. I have a command ship in my squad also with Wing Command IV who can give awesome gang bonuses to my fleet if they were in the WC position. I want to make them Wing Commander, but at the same time I want to remain in overall command and be able to access the wing command abilities like invites and gang warps. --- One of the first rules in large scale fleet combat is to kill and pod the gang commander. Sometimes fleet commanders are well known to the enemy, and sometimes there are spies in gang/teamspeak. As a concequence a lot of fleet commanders like to command from covert ops or force recon ships where they can command a battle without getting popped. In this situation a FC would want a command ship in the top position for the leadershp bonuses, yet still have full access to all of the FC tools so they can actually command their fleet (assume that the FC has the relevant leadership to be FC for the fleet).
flyinhedgehog The Priory	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:07:00 - [170] :S generally rubbish tbh. No offence TomB but there are way more things that need attention in terms of fixing to start overcomplicating stuff that works pretty ok atm. You've put in all this stuff for repping and shield boosting I guess to try to and make logistics useful but in the middle of a fleet fight who is going to spare attention to this new fangled system when thereÆs so many other things that youÆve got to pay attention to in a fight? I still think the preferable option will be to warp out and repair yourself or get repaired; in which case you might as well use gang chat. If you still use logistics in fleet fights, guess who the primary after ew and possible fcs is? and consider how fast they go down when made primary. The amount that gang bonuses apply atm isn't really a good enough incentive to waste a person/people to boost a command ship enough to stop them being taken out by focussed fire. Not more than passing anyway (i.e. a couple of bs put logistics drones on them), in which case they might as well warp out. The system for organisation of gangs is also too complicated and constricting imo. What I liked about eve originally was the freeform way it was put together. What made good pvp gangs was the way in which they worked together and organised themselves. If people can't stay quiet on comms/listen/do what theyÆre told by the fc, then they deserve to get the **** kicked out of them until they figure out how to deal with a more organised foe. Imo the new system will just confuse them more. Basically what IÆm saying is the whole fleet commander - squadron commander thing isn't really needed and places restrictions on how we play the game if we want gang boni. If for example you assign a squad of tacklers and you have a squad commander in a command ship with the relevant modules to sit with the bs doing antisupport until he dies. Which will be quite quickly as because heÆs doing anti-support he wont have a tank (or if he does then heÆs a bit useless as anti-support). Now heÆs useless in a pod/back in station. No gang bonuses, no squad commander; this isn't really a problem as theyÆre all going after primaries, warping out and in etc making the whole thing kind of pointless in the first place. Why not just have the gang boni apply to the whole gang but as only say 1/2 of the gang is using them it doesn't really matter. I don't like the restrictions on numbers in each wing/squad. I want to be able to have as many as I want in each section with a total cap on the fleet. Who are you to say that we can't have more than 10 members in a squad, sry sounded a bit aggressive but you get what I mean. In small gang pvp which you are apparently trying to promote generally you have very odd numbers and everybody tends to stick together anyway making having different squads pointless but this prevents having gang boni :S. Having a fleet split up into fire teams is complicated enough on ts, in my experience (some peoples may differ) that it isn't as good in practice as in theory. You might as well have everybody in one channel and one person calling targets for everyone (possibly in fire teams). If you implement this on comms it will again be pointless as many people would rather use something they are comfortable with and have been using since they started rather than using an overcomplicated system even if it is supported by in game mechanics. Also seeing as your apparently going to have to pay for it seems a bit mercenary tbh, as if you want to join a corp. using it you will be forced to pay? I do like the clean up of the gang ui, I found that it took up too much space and tended to lag you out etc when used (now mine doesn't even work but never mind). And the lock target stuff could be quite useful but what happens when the fc warps out and someone else takes over? Seems like another useless feature in practice tbh. Comms seems to be much more seamless when someone else takes over and it means that anyone can do it (theoretically) IÆm sure the person in command is already doing a lot with their mouse to efficiently be doing anything else. There seem to be some useless broadcasts as well...wtf is the point of enemy spotted. If a scout isn't on comms itÆs a pointless scout. Also no info apart from enemy spotted is useless, whereas the numbers, ship types, positions. Just seems like another gimmick tbh. In summary sort out your priorities. Yes you need new content to keep people interested, but for god sake make sure itÆs properly thought through. Fix things that need fixing before you stick in a lot of half baked ideas that will need yet more balancing/nerfage. Sure there are some really good bits, but from my point of view it all seems a bit gimmicky, bit like the new star map zoomy thing.
Puls4r Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:08:00 - [171] Edited by: Puls4r on 07/11/2006 19:09:07 My first reply on this forum in more than 2 years of playing, because I'm really disgusted in reading this blog. All the things about improvements of HUD, broadcastings, hierachy is really good and will improve tactical aspect of the PVP. But, the things about how gang bonus aplly are not good. Hardin and some others have underlined most of the drawbacks of this sytem so I won't say it again, I will just take my case in exemple : I have spent a lot of time in training for cmd ships and gang mods so I want to use these SP to help my gangmates and then I have to be a commander. The problem is that I'm not a good FC. So if I want to make my modules useful, I'll be the commander of the squad anyway but someone else will be the real leader on TeamSpeak. That means that the broadcast things for example will become useless in that case... Not much interesting then...
flyinhedgehog The Priory	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:19:00 - [172] (rant continued) Comms seems to be much more seamless when someone else takes over and it means that anyone can do it (theoretically) IÆm sure the person in command is already doing a lot with their mouse to efficiently be doing anything else. There seem to be some useless broadcasts as well...wtf is the point of enemy spotted. If a scout isn't on comms itÆs a pointless scout. Also no info apart from enemy spotted is useless, whereas the numbers, ship types, positions. Just seems like another gimmick tbh. In summary sort out your priorities. Yes you need new content to keep people interested, but for god sake make sure itÆs properly thought through. Fix things that need fixing before you stick in a lot of half baked ideas that will need yet more balancing/nerfage. Sure there are some really good bits, but from my point of view it all seems a bit gimmicky, bit like the new star map zoomy thing.
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:23:00 - [173] Originally by: flyinhedgehog (rant continued) Comms seems to be much more seamless when someone else takes over and it means that anyone can do it (theoretically) IÆm sure the person in command is already doing a lot with their mouse to efficiently be doing anything else. There seem to be some useless broadcasts as well...wtf is the point of enemy spotted. If a scout isn't on comms itÆs a pointless scout. Also no info apart from enemy spotted is useless, whereas the numbers, ship types, positions. Just seems like another gimmick tbh. In summary sort out your priorities. Yes you need new content to keep people interested, but for god sake make sure itÆs properly thought through. Fix things that need fixing before you stick in a lot of half baked ideas that will need yet more balancing/nerfage. Sure there are some really good bits, but from my point of view it all seems a bit gimmicky, bit like the new star map zoomy thing. /signed it seemed great at first but now just gimmicky like you say, its getting harder and harder for me to see the point of the new gang system the way its presented now. **** need to make a new sig...
Matrix Aran Legio Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:24:00 - [174] Originally by: Serapis Aote Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: Serapis Aote you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead. He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features. which ones... clicking targets to show up on overview...still probably faster and easier to just call it over vent. Inviteing people to gang and assigning. I would think that if the actual FC told the placeholder guy to do it, he would. I look at this structure more as a gang bonus distribution mechanic then a RL leadership mechanic to be honest. You can plop anyone with the skills in the FC slot, and not much will change IMO. I could be wrong though. Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies. So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh? ----
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:27:00 - [175] Originally by: flyinhedgehog There seem to be some useless broadcasts as well...wtf is the point of enemy spotted. If a scout isn't on comms itÆs a pointless scout. Also no info apart from enemy spotted is useless, whereas the numbers, ship types, positions. Just seems like another gimmick tbh. You can see where the enemy is on the map, both system or world. I can see how that is useful.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:28:00 - [176] Originally by: Darpz sorry don't like it. I like the interface changes, but I don't like the new gang setup for a numbers of reason It nerfs carriers and command ships hard since it forces them to be commanders for the gang bonus's to apply but this doesn't work normally because well carriers sit in safe/pos away from battle and command useually do that same or are support killers since they do not have the ablity to work at the ranges that battles happen. So why not make the carrier the 'commander' for the bonuses to apply and have someone else do the effective leading? I think it has been stated too that it was not really intended for carriers to sit in an out of the way place so really you are complaining about something player's really decided to do for themselves that the designers didn't forsee happening. True it is rather obvious but these are programmers.:) There is still also the rumor that there could be a T2 battleship designed as a command type of ship but that is only a rumor. Originally by: Hardin Okay I have read through the blog and all the replies and I am still confused. I trained my Hardin account (over six months on Command Ships/Leadership skills) to fly a **ation specifically set up to boost a gangs skills. Um, you have been playing Eve probably as long or longer as me so you must have realized by now that sometimes things happen that make whatever you have anxiously trained yourself up for can be changed to work in an entirely different way. There is no way like with other games to retool yourself after they invent a new system you no longer want to pursue. I'm sitting with at least 12M wasted Skill points. That's just the way Eve goes. Originally by:** Hardin It seems nonsensical to me that commanders who historically stay away from the frontlines to direct operations are being forced into the thick of the action. It's like asking Napoleon to lead the line at Waterloo or Rommel to captain the first tank into action at El Alamein. It is in my mind counter-intuitive that people who have trained for command ships should be forced to get themselves killed because of that choice - especially when there was no warning that this change was in the pipeline. See above. It also likely will not be the last time there is a significant change with no warning. Plus, the overall commander would have still kept aprised of what is going on either by watching the battle firsthand or through his subornidates. In a fast paced GAME like Eve, it seems more nonsensical to me to not be there at all because you can't make quick decisions based on a change in enemy tactics. You can't really do that when you sit out in the middle of now where and can't even see the battle. I don't think anyone should apply the 'alt argument' because there is some people who don't have one and focused the command skills on their only character. The whole idea of sitting in a 'safe spot' (which after the Kali changes isn't going to be as 'safe' anymore anyway) is just a load of crap. What kind of commander leads a fleet when he doesn't even know what is going on? You are an RP'r, right? suspicious look Originally by: Hardin Maybe I am being dense but I this does seem overly complicated and I am a believer in keeping things simple. Aim laser, make pew-pew, target dies, game over? I'd rather it be complex personally. My skills are ALL over the place because things have been so simple for years.
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:30:00 - [177] Originally by: Matrix Aran Originally by: Serapis Aote Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: Serapis Aote you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead. He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features. which ones... clicking targets to show up on overview...still probably faster and easier to just call it over vent. Inviteing people to gang and assigning. I would think that if the actual FC told the placeholder guy to do it, he would. I look at this structure more as a gang bonus distribution mechanic then a RL leadership mechanic to be honest. You can plop anyone with the skills in the FC slot, and not much will change IMO. I could be wrong though. Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies. So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh? Your just full of it, let me guess you started this BS rumor? **** need to make a new sig...
flyinhedgehog The Priory	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:38:00 - [178] Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: flyinhedgehog There seem to be some useless broadcasts as well...wtf is the point of enemy spotted. If a scout isn't on comms itÆs a pointless scout. Also no info apart from enemy spotted is useless, whereas the numbers, ship types, positions. Just seems like another gimmick tbh. You can see where the enemy is on the map, both system or world. I can see how that is useful. My point was that if your in a gang and you have assigned a scout, unless that scout is on comms and can tell you exactly what your facing the scout is useless. Any info about the position of the enemy would be given along with ship types etc. totally superceding (sp?) the need for that broadcast. The above can be said in gang chat...so its a gimmick
Matrix Aran Legio Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:39:00 - [179] Edited by: Matrix Aran on 07/11/2006 19:41:40 Originally by: Oveur A number of reasons for this change. We can start with the performance issues, the current model where it's the "best in gang for that attribute" is very expensive. It's also not the way we want to evolve gangs, the squads will get more specific bonuses if they have the correct group of roles, which directly penalize other types of roles in the squad (formation kind of thing). If you have good commanders, you should benefit from it, if you have a load of mediocre commanders, you shouldn't benefit as much from it, if you don't have any commanders, you shouldn't benefit at all. That's just the same as traditional warfare. (Note, the level of commanders here is of course referring to their skill level, not their actual competency). There are stress tests scheduled for the new gangs to compare with the stress tests of the old gangs on Singularity. Taken from the Kali Testing forum sticky on gangs, page 2 Edit: And also: Originally by: TomB -Health bars are now also just shown for specific part of the group, based on where you are in the gang. The main reason for this is to optimize the gang service performance as status on health wonÆt be send to hundred of gang mates. In detail: * Fleet Commander will only see health bars of the Wing Commanders. * Wing Commanders will only see the health bars of the Fleet Command and the Squadron Commanders in their Wing. * Squad Commanders/Members will only see the health bars of their Squad Members and their Wing Commander. from the Dev Blog itself. ----
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:47:00 - [180] Originally by: Matrix Aran Originally by: Oveur A number of reasons for this change. We can start with the performance issues, the current model where it's the "best in gang for that attribute" is very expensive. It's also not the way we want to evolve gangs, the squads will get more specific bonuses if they have the correct group of roles, which directly penalize other types of roles in the squad (formation kind of thing). If you have good commanders, you should benefit from it, if you have a load of mediocre commanders, you shouldn't benefit as much from it, if you don't have any commanders, you shouldn't benefit at all. That's just the same as traditional warfare. (Note, the level of commanders here is of course referring to their skill level, not their actual competency). There are stress tests scheduled for the new gangs to compare with the stress tests of the old gangs on Singularity. Taken from the Kali Testing forum sticky on gangs, page 2 Okey so they are gonna make a stress test, I find it hard beeing less stress on servers with broadcastings, many divisions, commanders, the new map and voice not to mention more options etc (and lets not forget what happens when its on TQ.) So you wanna blame node crashes or lag on the current system by this post you read? Even then they could improve the current system without all the stuff it has now. My beef its the new skills, the over complicated results the new system cause, the restrictions it comes with and, and... **** need to make a new sig...
Jagaroth No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:48:00 - [181] Can you allow the designated "scout" to tag? Might become useful then. ------
Matrix Aran Legio Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:53:00 - [182] Originally by: Sir Juri edit; PS: they could just limit current gangs to 50ppl like with the new system for "old" gangs and have us use 2-3 FC's instead and decrease stress if its such a problem And people would complain how much more? ----
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:55:00 - [183] Originally by: Matrix Aran Originally by: Sir Juri edit; PS: they could just limit current gangs to 50ppl like with the new system for "old" gangs and have us use 2-3 FC's instead and decrease stress if its such a problem And people would complain how much more? You? **** need to make a new sig...
Tek'a Rain Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:55:00 - [184] guess I can leave that Eos in hanger now and skip finishing skilling. Im a Logistics/Assist pilot. I bring the extra ammo, or the remote reppers. I try to keep everyone Else in fighting shape. I was even happier to get Gang mods (Gang mods, not Command mods!) because it allowed me to actually contribute to a gang without being a sniper or tackler. Im not a strategy mastermind, or a commanding genius, why would I be commanding people! Command is really the wrong term, same with Leadership skills. its not a Command ship, its Heavy Logistics!
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:59:00 - [185] Originally by: Sir Juri Edited by: Sir Juri on 07/11/2006 19:48:28 Originally by: Matrix Aran Originally by: Oveur A number of reasons for this change. We can start with the performance issues, the current model where it's the "best in gang for that attribute" is very expensive. It's also not the way we want to evolve gangs, the squads will get more specific bonuses if they have the correct group of roles, which directly penalize other types of roles in the squad (formation kind of thing). If you have good commanders, you should benefit from it, if you have a load of mediocre commanders, you shouldn't benefit as much from it, if you don't have any commanders, you shouldn't benefit at all. That's just the same as traditional warfare. (Note, the level of commanders here is of course referring to their skill level, not their actual competency). There are stress tests scheduled for the new gangs to compare with the stress tests of the old gangs on Singularity. Taken from the Kali Testing forum sticky on gangs, page 2 Okey so they are gonna make a stress test, I find it hard beeing less stress on servers with broadcastings, many divisions, commanders, the new map and voice not to mention more options etc (and lets not forget what happens when its on TQ.) So you wanna blame node crashes or lag on the current system by this post you read? Even then they could improve the current system without all the stuff it has now. My beef its the new skills, the over complicated results the new system cause, the restrictions it comes with and, and... edit; PS: they could just limit current gangs to 50ppl like with the new system for "old" gangs and have us use 2-3 FC's instead and decrease stress if its such a problem If you want to form a simple gang, form a simple gang. Some people want the ability to use a military hierarchy effectively in game and are not confused by this at all. I'd much rather it be available and some people choosing not to use it, that for it not to be available at all.
Himani Yeshua Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:05:00 - [186] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Sha'Uri Dark Oh and evenly distributed stats FTW! Quite. I'm staring at my "Charisma 20" with much love atm. I expect the whinefest from the Charisma 3 brigade will be quite entertaining, once they figure things out. base 6 and i havent trained the charisma learning skills
Matrix Aran Legio Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:07:00 - [187] Originally by: Sir Juri Originally by: Matrix Aran Originally by: Sir Juri edit; PS: they could just limit current gangs to 50ppl like with the new system for "old" gangs and have us use 2-3 FC's instead and decrease stress if its such a problem And people would complain how much more? You? Oh I probably would say meh and keep on going. Personaly I'm oposed to the watching paint dry style of combat that is fleet comabt, and I'd much rather be a member of a small fast moving gang than sitting on a gate for hours. But thats me. Sure people are going to have issues with any changes to anything in this game. At least the gangchanges in my view do two important things. One. They help organise the chaos that is fleet combat nowadays by having multiple people to handle gang invites, a way for gang members to pass on info without talking over eachother on TS etc. Instead of having one dumb idiot on TS screaming warp to me followed by 50 people saying who are you in laggy unison now I can actualy right click the message he just send and warp to him. Also I can see on our new spiffy 3d map where that guy is in space. I can call primary targets without having people have to repeatedly ask who is primary because their mother just shouted at them while I was calling it. With few exceptions I much prefer the new broadcasts system to having people cluttering up my TS. Two. I honestly believe it will reduce the lag posed by large gangs while adding functionality. The old system was written 2-3 years ago when battles of huge scales were a thing of dreams. Considering pretty much everything is getting a rewrite it would stand to reason the gangs are going to be less laggy. And if they aren't, well the two Devs that advertised otherwise are going to be feeling really silly. ----
Girdan Keirge eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:08:00 - [188] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Adam Reed "gang bonuses of any kind (skills, modules) have been disabled completely" ...now, I know this thread seems to be all about combat, but I just want to check - this doesn't mean non-combat gang bonuses have been scrapped as well does it? The extra 10% yield for a gang with Mining Foreman level 5 is what I'm principally thinking of. It's for all gang bonuses, if you want 256 people to mine in a single group you will need a lot of commanders with sufficient skills to command the groups. And then the Fleet Commander can boost mining for the entire fleet. Sorry, but this is total crap. Mining gangs have no need of such a complex hierarchy structure like a combat gang does. Let us say I've got Mining Foreman 5 and Wing Command 3. I want to form myself and 15 others into a mining gang. Obviously I need to form 2 Squads since max Squad sized is 10. No one else has Leadership higher than 3 (max 6 in Squad). What happens to my mining bonus? Does no one get it because the Squads are 'inactive' because nobody has the skill to 'lead' it properly? Do I default to FC and no one gets the bonus because I don't have the Fleet Command skill or can I just be a WC and have a gang with no FC? What if the SC have some bonus to say shields but have more than 6 in their Squad? Some get the bonus? None get the bonus? As you keep releasing more info about the system, it's overall sounding better, but there are still some poor decisions. Mostly the gang bonus 'features'. The gang assist skills/modules are a support class, yet you are now combining the support class and the command class. Not the best idea. The big uproar has been that fleets can't be formed until you have the skills, but it's now sounding like fleets can be formed, up to max size, by anyone, just that only people in the command positions will give any bonus. If this is true, it's not too bad (excepting the already mentioned combining of the support and command classes), at least the command structure will be there for dividing into specialized groups. No one is required to learn the Command skills but a lot of people have trained the gang support skills, some for months, but when this goes live, unless they spend a couple more months training the Command skills, they have wasted their time. Commanders are commanders and Support is support. They are not one in the same. By hinging the gang bonus on Command skills it becomes a requirement to train them. I can train every gang bonus skill available to 5, but they are completely worthless without the Command skills. You're trying to make commanding a mini-profession and it just isn't. Commanding requires mental abilities, not a skillbook. If I'm understanding correctly, the physical gang leader does not need to be the FC/WC/SC and that's a good move, but the people who've trained the skills have to be in those positions to give the gang bonus, yet the FC/WC/SC positions are the ones that get the nifty command functions needed by a real FC. Having the Command skills doesn't make a good FC/WC/SC. Likewise, being a good Commander has nothing to do with giving gang bonus. I totally get the concept you're going for here and I really like it, in concept. There's just too much unecessary baggage to parts of it. I don't like the second-account-commandship-alt-at-a-POS-for-gang-bonus state of affairs that exists currently, and making those who want to give the bonus have to be more involved is a good thing, but making the Support players have to be Commanders makes no sense to me. Creating a 'bonus-giver' role is a possible option. Moving the fence this way, this late in the game, is not a good idea. Ask anyone who played Star Wars Galaxies how much they liked having their fence moved. People spent a lot of time skilling and finding gear to compliment their playstyle and SOE changed the system several times in 1 year making most of their choices worthless (more than once).
Amthrianius Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:10:00 - [189] Pointless & unnecessary Wasted time. Originally by: Admiral Goberius Basically we need to understand why they manage to cream our dreads like they were shuttles and theirs manage to tank a total of 150 ascn ships + 112 fighters
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:12:00 - [190] And here I was just about to train leadership skills for gang mods... guess thats pointless now.
Kylania Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:16:00 - [191] Remembering for a moment that EVE is more than just 256 man fleet PvP.. how will this affect a small group of miners for instance? How would a 12 member corp mining op work? You can only have 10 people in a squadron so right away you need two squadron commanders, each with say 5 people? But than Squadron B won't get the bonuses of Squadon A's leader? So you'd need someone to be Wing Commander who has bonuses to affect everyone? And all our little gang bonuses we had are now worthless? My brain hurts from trying to figure this out. -- Lil Miner Newbie Skills Roadmap \| CCG Card Lookup
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:30:00 - [192] Originally by: Matrix Aran ... You want to be in a small gang not sitting at a gate for hours and you think this will change that? And your wrong I dont like sitting at gates forever either. Chaos in fleet combat? perhaps in your corp, but then its your problem, but if you call your FC an idiot screaming warp to me then, well this wont change that either Someones mom screamed at him forcing him to ask for the primary? then type it in gang chat Want to see where the targets are? if the scout knows what the hell he is dooing you wont need that feature. Want to see where your own guys are? shouldnt have to but yeah not all features are bad, but you think the Map will be so smooth for all of this? Sorry but your lag issue still aint good enough, cause A I dont think so B, they could make it less laggy with other systems or this system better layed out. Anyway my beef is with the new skills, it beeing too complicated it seems, restricted, command ships have to be FC's, etc, im still curious what kind of problesm it will all cause trying to organise all small gangs in one strike, I fear more chaos. I also worry about small corps/gangs without all of these command ship pilots and cant train for them cause they aint vet's, and have other priorities. **** need to make a new sig...
Babs Johnson Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:36:00 - [193] Originally by: Sir Juri Originally by: flyinhedgehog (rant continued) Comms seems to be much more seamless when someone else takes over and it means that anyone can do it (theoretically) IÆm sure the person in command is already doing a lot with their mouse to efficiently be doing anything else. There seem to be some useless broadcasts as well...wtf is the point of enemy spotted. If a scout isn't on comms itÆs a pointless scout. Also no info apart from enemy spotted is useless, whereas the numbers, ship types, positions. Just seems like another gimmick tbh. In summary sort out your priorities. Yes you need new content to keep people interested, but for god sake make sure itÆs properly thought through. Fix things that need fixing before you stick in a lot of half baked ideas that will need yet more balancing/nerfage. Sure there are some really good bits, but from my point of view it all seems a bit gimmicky, bit like the new star map zoomy thing. /signed it seemed great at first but now just gimmicky like you say, its getting harder and harder for me to see the point of the new gang system the way its presented now. Well obviously, no matter how pointless and ridiculously overcomplicated it may be, it's clearly a done deal. Everyone may as well open wide, because it's going to be shoved down our throats whether we like it or not.
Nar'ja Jaden	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:36:00 - [194] getting prepared for massive flaming I've read a lot of whining about these improvements. (Yes, I think they are improvements!) Along with prolonging battles by doubling Armor/Shield hitpoints they add a lot of strategy to mid- and large-scale battles. EvE's never been a heyho-warpin-popall-logoff-goshopping kind of game, but one that needs intelligent gameplay. Yes it gets more complex, but hey, this is EvE for christ sake, not WoW! This game is called the most complex MMOG out there, so I think CCP is just adding to its reputation here. As for me, I didn't join to play a simple sf-game to pewpewpwn pretty ships in pretty space, but because they fly in a most complex virtual world, with more aspects to look into than most MMOGs could ever dream to have (and still look pretty) Originally by: Hardin It seems nonsensical to me that commanders who historically stay away from the frontlines to direct operations are being forced into the thick of the action. It's like asking Napoleon to lead the line at Waterloo or Rommel to captain the first tank into action at El Alamein. True. But the way it is now, Rommel and Napoleon only are simple alts sitting safe and sound back in Berlin or Paris in their living rooms, eating a sandwich. And just by mere magic, their strategic genius is somehow transfered to their troops by means of some items placed on the desk beside them. Talk about 'nonsensical'! I agree however, that the new bonus handling has the potential to replace one extreme with the other. After all, it is a common warfare tactic to kill a commander in order to plant disarray into all enemy forces. In short: crushing the head of the snake. Or is it? A fleet commander is never to be found on the battlefield itself (even though some in this thread even complain about this) but has to lead his troops from a distance. A fleet commander has also to be close enough to his troops for his leadership skills to apply to his troops. (talking rl abilities and EvE skills alike!) To disorder the command structure (and its benefits to the opposing enemy forces) by killing the leader had been a primary goal to every battling force since Command Ships were introduced. Just through the omnipresent use of leadership alts sitting in safespots munching pizza, the real objective of these ships have been caricatured. They are combat ships, but they are used like (silent) additional improvements of any gang players skills. Saying this I think CCP just reacted on an unwanted and unpredicted (mis)use of a ship and its assets. By placing it back where it belonged - alongside her gangmates on the battlefield. This change will beyond doubt mess up any long-term familiarized strategy. But it will also give the braniacs among the community enough challenge to think of new ones. "There's nothing more persistant than change itself." Dedicated EvE players should know that.
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:37:00 - [195] Guess we will all see when it hits TQ, but meh most of it sounds bad, even counter productive the more one reads it. But I wont know how this feature will work for a long while, cause I have other training priorities and not great charisma, so perhaps 2008 unless I happen to join one of these fleets in the meanwhile or buy a gang alt. 'nuff been said for me, time to wait and see! **** need to make a new sig...
marcouk2 Gallente Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:43:00 - [196] Originally by: Nar'ja Jaden getting prepared for massive flaming I've read a lot of whining about these improvements. (Yes, I think they are improvements!) Along with prolonging battles by doubling Armor/Shield hitpoints they add a lot of strategy to mid- and large-scale battles. EvE's never been a heyho-warpin-popall-logoff-goshopping kind of game, but one that needs intelligent gameplay. Yes it gets more complex, but hey, this is EvE for christ sake, not WoW! This game is called the most complex MMOG out there, so I think CCP is just adding to its reputation here. As for me, I didn't join to play a simple sf-game to pewpewpwn pretty ships in pretty space, but because they fly in a most complex virtual world, with more aspects to look into than most MMOGs could ever dream to have (and still look pretty) Originally by: Hardin It seems nonsensical to me that commanders who historically stay away from the frontlines to direct operations are being forced into the thick of the action. It's like asking Napoleon to lead the line at Waterloo or Rommel to captain the first tank into action at El Alamein. True. But the way it is now, Rommel and Napoleon only are simple alts sitting safe and sound back in Berlin or Paris in their living rooms, eating a sandwich. And just by mere magic, their strategic genius is somehow transfered to their troops by means of some items placed on the desk beside them. Talk about 'nonsensical'! I agree however, that the new bonus handling has the potential to replace one extreme with the other. After all, it is a common warfare tactic to kill a commander in order to plant disarray into all enemy forces. In short: crushing the head of the snake. Or is it? A fleet commander is never to be found on the battlefield itself (even though some in this thread even complain about this) but has to lead his troops from a distance. A fleet commander has also to be close enough to his troops for his leadership skills to apply to his troops. (talking rl abilities and EvE skills alike!) To disorder the command structure (and its benefits to the opposing enemy forces) by killing the leader had been a primary goal to every battling force since Command Ships were introduced. Just through the omnipresent use of leadership alts sitting in safespots munching pizza, the real objective of these ships have been caricatured. They are combat ships, but they are used like (silent) additional improvements of any gang players skills. Saying this I think CCP just reacted on an unwanted and unpredicted (mis)use of a ship and its assets. By placing it back where it belonged - alongside her gangmates on the battlefield. This change will beyond doubt mess up any long-term familiarized strategy. But it will also give the braniacs among the community enough challenge to think of new ones. "There's nothing more persistant than change itself." Dedicated EvE players should know that. A good fleet commander always has to be on the front lines of the battlefield in order to know how the battle is going and to be able to call primaries quickly and accurately.
Anti Protagonist Gallente Archron Dusyfe Industries	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:44:00 - [197] Edited by: Anti Protagonist on 07/11/2006 20:45:23 After reading over the changes (and actually seeing a few on Sisi before this) and the rest of the posts, I'm coming in in favor of this setup. It will take some getting used to, and likely tactics will change, but that's not a bad thing. What would be a very nice addition to this would be tech 2 BSes meant to run as fleet command ships and an expansion of carrier abilities to run warfare links. I agree with those who have said that command ships (including carriers) should be on the lines with their troops, doing the commanding. I also agree with those who said we should be able to delegate more roles (i.e. tagging, or gang warping). As far as the "sniper bs" issue: there's been much discussion of them making fleet battles shorter range, so the command ships should have no issue with hitting targets.
Jezala Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:53:00 - [198] So Tomb presented to us some neat gang-invite tools, but one thing that has always bugged me is that would it be possible for players in a common chat channel to be allowed to self-invite themselves into a gang. When a gang leader has 100 players to send invites to, it becomes a very tedious and attention consuming process. Would it not be better to provide the gang leaders with an option to open up the gang for self-invites to anyone in their Alliance channel, corp channel, or shared security channel? So instead of having alliance chat spammed with ".68ft", ".freighter", "X", or "DOT!!!!!", why not provide a tool to gang leaders where they can configure the settings for gang invites and players can simply just right-click in their chat channel and add themselves into a gang. ...and yes, we do sell and deliver ammo. 425 Express Delivery is available upon request, please see Hans Gates and Marcus Grisbius regarding this option.
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:55:00 - [199] Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 07/11/2006 20:56:27 Originally by: Oveur A number of reasons for this change. We can start with the performance issues, the current model where it's the "best in gang for that attribute" is very expensive. If it is too difficult for you to code efficiently, then here's a simple solution: Just let the gang leader manually pick which player to be used as the "highest" gang bonus for each gang module. The commander knows who is the best, and if he doesn't, then oh well. Sometimes humans are the answer to your coding woes. Shamis
Matrix Aran Legio Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:57:00 - [200] Originally by: Sir Juri Originally by: Matrix Aran ... .... Actualy in the case in example I was the fleet comander, I was refering to the person screaming 'warp to me' as an idiot. And typing a persons name in gang chat doesn't let my guys imediately rightclick target him or her either. I like seeing where my targets are because it helps me think about the problem three dimensionaly, I can figure out what they're aligned to, where best I can stage a rally point outside thier scanner arcs. Its just one of those nice little tools I've wanted. Now afaik, the entire system as TomB has said earlier in the thread will be fully functional, without any of the skills. The only catch is that to use the leadership mods, you have to have the command skills to use them in the gang. This personaly I think is a well deserved nerf for gang bonus mods. Other than that anyone can take over the fleet commander and wing comander slots and use the gang otherwise, just no bonuses. I don't really see the complications in it. ----
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:00:00 - [201] Originally by: Matrix Aran Originally by: Sir Juri Originally by: Matrix Aran ... .... Actualy in the case in example I was the fleet comander, I was refering to the person screaming 'warp to me' as an idiot. And typing a persons name in gang chat doesn't let my guys imediately rightclick target him or her either. I like seeing where my targets are because it helps me think about the problem three dimensionaly, I can figure out what they're aligned to, where best I can stage a rally point outside thier scanner arcs. Its just one of those nice little tools I've wanted. Now afaik, the entire system as TomB has said earlier in the thread will be fully functional, without any of the skills. The only catch is that to use the leadership mods, you have to have the command skills to use them in the gang. This personaly I think is a well deserved nerf for gang bonus mods. Other than that anyone can take over the fleet commander and wing comander slots and use the gang otherwise, just no bonuses. I don't really see the complications in it. By the time you think in "3d" you will be dead **** need to make a new sig...
Matrix Aran Legio Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:04:00 - [202] Originally by: Sir Juri Originally by: Matrix Aran Originally by: Sir Juri Originally by: Matrix Aran ... ... ... By the time you think in "3d" you will be dead They've been trying ----
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:17:00 - [203] Originally by: Pick Me Originally by: DrAtomic Originally by: jeNK "Milking the cash cow" springs to mind. So we have pvp alts/mains Industrial alts Research alts + more (capital alts/mains?) and now gang alts. That just shows how borked and broken the SP system is. When I started playing the CCP statement was; quote: "you cannot max out a character in a month, more like 3 years". Where do we stand now? 17+ real life years under ideal circumstances (+5 implants)? I have 3 character slots on my account, let me max out a character once every 3 years, that would still mean I'd be a subscriber for 9 years. Heck I wouldnt quit because my character would be maxed out anyway, I'm playing the game for content not to have that content locked away for tens of real life years because of a skillsystem. You cannot max out, it's specialization, in whatever you like so you are better than other that did'nt specialize in that. Now if you find it annoying and useless, you can change and start to train another specialization but you can always get back as you did'nt lose any old skill nor did you have to buy another character. It's also nice to know that anyone you came across won't be a expert in all damage type, all ship type, all electronic warfare type... He will have FLAWS, just like you. I don't see a problem in that design. You are so wrong it's not even funny, the point of the guy who brought this up (and the sidetracking of things here) is that people don't accept that and simply create multiple accounts for it; ie an hauler specialist, mining specialist, pvp specialist, industrial specialist, scouting specialist, etc, etc. There is no reason spending more reallife money should give you an advantage (aka same as spending money to buy isk or buy a macro tool); sadly the current design of the SP system allows for just that. Plus access to content is restricted by the amount of money you spend. Make it so that the entire skilltree can be completed in 3 years time and the issue is gone, whilst keeping the advantages of the SP design and it will also actually be casual player friendly (for the current design it is certainly not, through the need of having multiple accounts). If I ever find the time I'll do a full and complete analysis on it, with the focus being real life time required to be able to access all content. I might be a pvp pilot but that doesnt mean i dont want to try to mine every now and then or research a BPO or build something or do some trading or do some exploration or do some salvaging, etc. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:28:00 - [204] Originally by: Matrix Aran Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies. So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh? To me the irony lays in the fix they choose to make due to a design flaw with the core system (scratch it instead of fixing it), why not simply make it session change independent; keep a temporary record of the entire gang hierarchy per bonus. Once someone new joins the gang only his bonusses get checked against the temporary records and he's fitted in the bonus table at the correct hierarchy (say #2 for armor bonus, #34 for shield bonus etc). Change the bonusses applied when the #1 spot gets touched. This should be hardly any stress on CPU's for maybe the instance where bonusses need to be reapplied to all ships. But then again I'm a sysadmin and not a programmer. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:30:00 - [205] Originally by: Sir Juri Originally by: Matrix Aran Originally by: Serapis Aote Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: Serapis Aote you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead. He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features. which ones... clicking targets to show up on overview...still probably faster and easier to just call it over vent. Inviteing people to gang and assigning. I would think that if the actual FC told the placeholder guy to do it, he would. I look at this structure more as a gang bonus distribution mechanic then a RL leadership mechanic to be honest. You can plop anyone with the skills in the FC slot, and not much will change IMO. I could be wrong though. Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies. So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh? Your just full of it, let me guess you started this BS rumor? Nope, he's not it was actually posted by one of the devs on the Kali forum.... ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery
Fuujin Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:31:00 - [206] Why are so many people terrified of a commanding role? Take a chance and try something. It's a game. _______________ Sig removed. Please keep sigs to 400x120 pixels, 24000 bytes or less, and related to Eve. -Kaemonn
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:37:00 - [207] Originally by: DrAtomic Originally by: Sir Juri Originally by: Matrix Aran Originally by: Serapis Aote Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: Serapis Aote you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead. He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features. which ones... clicking targets to show up on overview...still probably faster and easier to just call it over vent. Inviteing people to gang and assigning. I would think that if the actual FC told the placeholder guy to do it, he would. I look at this structure more as a gang bonus distribution mechanic then a RL leadership mechanic to be honest. You can plop anyone with the skills in the FC slot, and not much will change IMO. I could be wrong though. Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies. So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh? Your just full of it, let me guess you started this BS rumor? Nope, he's not it was actually posted by one of the devs on the Kali forum.... I allready responded to this statement and more from same guy, so read that instead. **** need to make a new sig...
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:38:00 - [208] Originally by: DrAtomic You are so wrong it's not even funny, the point of the guy who brought this up (and the sidetracking of things here) is that people don't accept that and simply create multiple accounts for it; ie an hauler specialist, mining specialist, pvp specialist, industrial specialist, scouting specialist, etc, etc. Look what will happen when the standing become a lot more important, like gate fee, docking fee etc... The mission runner alt will be the only one with the standing, then even the research alt will need standing to lower the fee of research. That was an example, because we already have cross-referenced high skill which result in the main and alts having to train the same skill to level 5. It's not usefull to have many in that case. Quote: There is no reason spending more reallife money should give you an advantage (aka same as spending money to buy isk or buy a macro tool); sadly the current design of the SP system allows for just that. Plus access to content is restricted by the amount of money you spend. Make it so that the entire skilltree can be completed in 3 years time and the issue is gone, whilst keeping the advantages of the SP design and it will also actually be casual player friendly (for the current design it is certainly not, through the need of having multiple accounts). ? You lost me there. The Eve skill system is known as the most casual player friendly system on the market, what are you talking about? Really, having your SP go up slowly at the same rate as the powergamers, how is that bad for casual players? Quote: If I ever find the time I'll do a full and complete analysis on it, with the focus being real life time required to be able to access all content. Why do you want access to all the content? You have access to most of it with level 4 usually and Eve is the only game that add new content at this speed. You want all content, even the content we will get in one year? I don't follow you. Quote: I might be a pvp pilot but that doesnt mean i dont want to try to mine every now and then or research a BPO or build something or do some trading or do some exploration or do some salvaging, etc. Again, you can do that today, you fight, do a little research, build something, all with your main normal skills. You don't need to buy a fighter, a mage, a summoner to do all the different stuff. Then you specialize in what you like the most to be proficient in that.
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:41:00 - [209] Seriously, is it so hard to imagine that you cannot all be LEADER in a 300+ players blob? Maybe the 'Leadership' name should have given you a hint about what was around the corner?
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:42:00 - [210] Originally by: Pick Me Originally by: EvilNate zomg!! This stuff is really so fracking cool. I have a question about the new gang system that doesn't relate to pvp at all. Currently in pretty much any MMORPG, when a player does a mission/quest/whatever, he is able to share that mission/quest/whatever with another player. That player can the recieve a split of the LP and standings gains too. Any chance we will see this implemented any time in the next 2837492874 years? Nate Absolutely NOT. This is why most other MMORPG go straight to hell. In DAOC for example, a guy has 3 high level characters in a 'gang' with a new one he just created. So they go into a very hard place and start to fight with some very interesting macros. If a monster hit the newbee, he is instantly killed. One macro is taking the group to a monster if there is'nt one in front of them. One macro is reviving the newbee char each time he is killed. Other macro make them all attack. So each time a monster died, it's shared between the 'gang' members and thus the newbee go up in level. The guy let the macros run when he sleep or at work and each 3 weeks, he has a nice new medium-high level character to sell for RL money (about 100$ depending on competiton). In Eve, it's impossible to do that because of how the skills system work. But thoses that still sell character would be too happy to raise their standing that way, AND, we should'nt have people in large gang like Bob be able to get anything faster than everyone else just because they are able to form bigger gang. They already have the 'large numbers' bonus with all that come with it. You can already get standings up for someone else: New character accepts 3 level 3 missions and undocks. He gang warps the help to the missions and redocks. Completes all missions on cue. Zarch AlDain
Eewec Ourbyni Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:46:00 - [211] Originally by: Sir Juri Originally by: TomB Originally by: Darpz sorry don't like it. I like the interface changes, but I don't like the new gang setup for a numbers of reason It nerfs carriers and command ships hard since it forces them to be commanders for the gang bonus's to apply but this doesn't work normally because well carriers sit in safe/pos away from battle and command useually do that same or are support killers since they do not have the ablity to work at the ranges that battles happen. Its overly complex- yes its cool to read about but its just to complex. Running a fleet is complex enough without having to worry about inviting people into that mess. I can see TS now Person 1: X for gang FC: would a squadcommander invite him. SC1: sorry i'm full SC2: Sorry I'm full also SC4: Also Full SC5: yup same FC: SC3? SCI: he must be afk FC: ok will someone make a new squad? .... FC: so no else can make a squad? .... Person 1: nm i'm going ot play wow FC: hey wait I can invite anyone into any squad... WC1: oh yeah I can invite anyone to any squad in my wing! FC: dude I can even create a new squad and move some dude from some other squad to a commander position of it WC2: I mean that's so cool Gang Creator: hey I can do everything that the fleet commander can do, move people around and invite So an FC can create a squad, move someone into it to be commander, that does not have the skills in the first place to create a squad? so one only needs one FC ever to create a fleet? same for bonuses? Dunno about anyone else, but I feel Sir Juri has a point here. TS chat from the FC will be asking who can make a new gang, and unless an FC can make a commander out of someone who doesn't have the skills for it, the FC is going to get mighty ticked having to r-click all the names in all the gangs etc to find someone who has the 'skills' in their character only to find they couldn't run a drinking contest at a brewery that's giving out free beer or just not psychologically cut out for a leadership position in RL. Where as at least the old system meant your RL skills didn't matter much so long as your Character had the skills. Now not only does your character have to have leadership skills, but so do you. Simply because something can be done, doesn't mean that by default that you should do it. This is a sig... -- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio -- ... good, ain't it!
SengH Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:54:00 - [212] Before we get carried away... how would this affect the current war dec/ gang flagging system. If im in a fleet and another wing joins with someone at war with another corp (easily possible with 250 people) would all 250 ppl become flagged to allow others to shoot at them? or just the squad? ---------------------------------------- Back for a month cus Awu5 finished.....
Freada Gallente Mackinaw Industries	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:55:00 - [213] I am not any kind of fleet leader so I am glad I did not waste my time training for a command ship. I just want to say good luck to everyone trying to put these multi-layered gangs back together and continue fighting everytime you crash the node.
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:55:00 - [214] Originally by: SengH Before we get carried away... how would this affect the current war dec/ gang flagging system. If im in a fleet and another wing joins with someone at war with another corp (easily possible with 250 people) would all 250 ppl become flagged to allow others to shoot at them? or just the squad? Yeah what about Lofty? **** need to make a new sig...
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:12:00 - [215] Edited by: Ozzie Asrail on 07/11/2006 22:12:17 Originally by: Freada I am not any kind of fleet leader so I am glad I did not waste my time training for a command ship. I just want to say good luck to everyone trying to put these multi-layered gangs back together and continue fighting everytime you crash the node. Actually if your not any kind of commander, from what i read you did totally waste that time. Unless your a one of the 6 commanders in a gang your gang mods and gang skills means jack. EDIT: Woops, missread there. Butn the point still stands. -----
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:18:00 - [216] Just to give you an idea. Before a new player can hope to lead a proper fleet. Skill Plan for Elise Exige 1: Empathy I (7 minutes, 42 seconds; Start: 07/11/2006 22:15:33) 2: Empathy II (35 minutes, 54 seconds; Start: 07/11/2006 22:23:15) 3: Empathy III (3 hours, 22 minutes, 55 seconds; Start: 07/11/2006 22:59:09) 4: Empathy IV (19 hours, 8 minutes, 4 seconds; Start: 08/11/2006 02:22:05) 5: Iron Will V (4 hours, 17 minutes, 43 seconds; Start: 08/11/2006 21:30:09) 6: Empathy V (4 days, 12 hours, 14 minutes, 27 seconds; Start: 09/11/2006 01:47:53) 7: Focus I (31 minutes, 42 seconds; Start: 13/11/2006 14:02:20) 8: Presence I (29 minutes, 38 seconds; Start: 13/11/2006 14:34:03) 9: Focus II (2 hours, 18 minutes, 3 seconds; Start: 13/11/2006 15:03:41) 10: Presence II (2 hours, 12 minutes, 18 seconds; Start: 13/11/2006 17:21:45) 11: Focus III (12 hours, 13 minutes, 5 seconds; Start: 13/11/2006 19:34:04) 12: Presence III (11 hours, 58 minutes, 26 seconds; Start: 14/11/2006 07:47:10) 13: Focus IV (2 days, 17 hours, 7 minutes, 52 seconds; Start: 14/11/2006 19:45:36) 14: Presence IV (2 days, 17 hours, 7 minutes, 52 seconds; Start: 17/11/2006 12:53:28) 15: Minmatar Frigate IV (1 day, 9 hours, 12 minutes, 14 seconds; Start: 20/11/2006 06:01:20) 16: Minmatar Cruiser I (33 minutes, 25 seconds; Start: 21/11/2006 15:13:35) 17: Minmatar Cruiser II (2 hours, 35 minutes, 40 seconds; Start: 21/11/2006 15:47:00) 18: Minmatar Cruiser III (14 hours, 40 minutes, 25 seconds; Start: 21/11/2006 18:22:40) 19: Minmatar Cruiser IV (3 days, 11 hours, 36 seconds; Start: 22/11/2006 09:03:06) 20: Minmatar Cruiser V (19 days, 13 hours, 34 minutes, 27 seconds; Start: 25/11/2006 20:03:43) 21: Spaceship Command IV (16 hours, 36 minutes, 7 seconds; Start: 15/12/2006 09:38:11) 22: Battlecruisers I (40 minutes, 6 seconds; Start: 16/12/2006 02:14:18) 23: Battlecruisers II (3 hours, 6 minutes, 45 seconds; Start: 16/12/2006 02:54:24) 24: Battlecruisers III (17 hours, 36 minutes, 33 seconds; Start: 16/12/2006 06:01:10) 25: Battlecruisers IV (4 days, 3 hours, 36 minutes, 42 seconds; Start: 16/12/2006 23:37:43) 26: Battlecruisers V (23 days, 11 hours, 29 minutes, 23 seconds; Start: 21/12/2006 03:14:26) 27: Leadership I (8 minutes, 15 seconds; Start: 13/01/2007 14:43:49) 28: Leadership II (38 minutes, 30 seconds; Start: 13/01/2007 14:52:05) 29: Leadership III (3 hours, 37 minutes, 41 seconds; Start: 13/01/2007 15:30:36) 30: Leadership IV (20 hours, 31 minutes, 34 seconds; Start: 13/01/2007 19:08:17) 31: Leadership V (4 days, 20 hours, 6 minutes, 46 seconds; Start: 14/01/2007 15:39:51) 32: Squadron Command I (54 minutes, 32 seconds; Start: 19/01/2007 11:46:38) 33: Squadron Command II (4 hours, 14 minutes; Start: 19/01/2007 12:41:10) 34: Squadron Command III (23 hours, 56 minutes, 54 seconds; Start: 19/01/2007 16:55:10) 35: Squadron Command IV (5 days, 15 hours, 28 minutes, 19 seconds; Start: 20/01/2007 16:52:05) 36: Command Ships I (56 minutes, 49 seconds; Start: 26/01/2007 08:20:25) 37: Signature Analysis I (7 minutes, 27 seconds; Start: 26/01/2007 09:17:14) 38: Signature Analysis II (34 minutes, 43 seconds; Start: 26/01/2007 09:24:41) 39: Signature Analysis III (3 hours, 16 minutes, 16 seconds; Start: 26/01/2007 09:59:24) 40: Signature Analysis IV (18 hours, 30 minutes, 25 seconds; Start: 26/01/2007 13:15:41) 41: Signature Analysis V (4 days, 8 hours, 41 minutes, 31 seconds; Start: 27/01/2007 07:46:07) 42: Electronics II (34 minutes, 43 seconds; Start: 31/01/2007 16:27:38) 43: Long Range Targeting I (14 minutes, 54 seconds; Start: 31/01/2007 17:02:21) 44: Long Range Targeting II (1 hour, 9 minutes, 25 seconds; Start: 31/01/2007 17:17:15) -----
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:19:00 - [217] 46: Long Range Targeting IV (1 day, 13 hours, 51 seconds; Start: 01/02/2007 00:59:15) 47: Long Range Targeting V (8 days, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 2 seconds; Start: 02/02/2007 14:00:07) 48: Logistics I (42 minutes, 36 seconds; Start: 11/02/2007 07:23:09) 49: Logistics II (3 hours, 18 minutes, 26 seconds; Start: 11/02/2007 08:05:46) 50: Logistics III (18 hours, 42 minutes, 35 seconds; Start: 11/02/2007 11:24:13) 51: Logistics IV (4 days, 9 hours, 50 minutes, 15 seconds; Start: 12/02/2007 06:06:48) 52: Armored Warfare I (18 minutes, 10 seconds; Start: 16/02/2007 15:57:03) 53: Armored Warfare II (1 hour, 24 minutes, 41 seconds; Start: 16/02/2007 16:15:14) 54: Armored Warfare III (7 hours, 58 minutes, 56 seconds; Start: 16/02/2007 17:39:55) 55: Armored Warfare IV (1 day, 21 hours, 9 minutes, 27 seconds; Start: 17/02/2007 01:38:52) 56: Armored Warfare V (10 days, 15 hours, 26 minutes, 54 seconds; Start: 18/02/2007 22:48:19) 57: Armored Warfare Specialist I (45 minutes, 27 seconds; Start: 01/03/2007 14:15:14) 58: Skirmish Warfare I (16 minutes, 31 seconds; Start: 01/03/2007 15:00:41) 59: Skirmish Warfare II (1 hour, 16 minutes, 59 seconds; Start: 01/03/2007 15:17:13) 60: Skirmish Warfare III (7 hours, 15 minutes, 24 seconds; Start: 01/03/2007 16:34:12) 61: Skirmish Warfare IV (1 day, 17 hours, 3 minutes, 8 seconds; Start: 01/03/2007 23:49:37) 62: Skirmish Warfare V (9 days, 16 hours, 13 minutes, 33 seconds; Start: 03/03/2007 16:52:45) 63: Skirmish Warfare Specialist I (45 minutes, 27 seconds; Start: 13/03/2007 09:06:18) 64: Information Warfare I (18 minutes, 10 seconds; Start: 13/03/2007 09:51:46) 65: Information Warfare II (1 hour, 24 minutes, 41 seconds; Start: 13/03/2007 10:09:57) 66: Information Warfare III (7 hours, 58 minutes, 56 seconds; Start: 13/03/2007 11:34:38) 67: Information Warfare IV (1 day, 21 hours, 9 minutes, 27 seconds; Start: 13/03/2007 19:33:35) 68: Information Warfare V (10 days, 15 hours, 26 minutes, 54 seconds; Start: 15/03/2007 16:43:02) 69: Information Warfare Specialist I (45 minutes, 27 seconds; Start: 26/03/2007 08:09:57) 70: Squadron Command V (31 days, 22 hours, 20 minutes, 45 seconds; Start: 26/03/2007 08:55:24) 71: Wing Command I (1 hour, 12 minutes, 43 seconds; Start: 27/04/2007 07:16:10) 72: Wing Command II (5 hours, 38 minutes, 41 seconds; Start: 27/04/2007 08:28:53) 73: Wing Command III (1 day, 7 hours, 55 minutes, 51 seconds; Start: 27/04/2007 14:07:35) 74: Wing Command IV (7 days, 12 hours, 37 minutes, 46 seconds; Start: 28/04/2007 22:03:26) 75: Wing Command V (42 days, 13 hours, 47 minutes, 40 seconds; Start: 06/05/2007 10:41:13) Total time: 222 days, 2 hours, 13 minutes, 20 seconds; Completion: 18/06/2007 00:28:53 -----
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:21:00 - [218] Um, this looks very nice and I don't want to sound like I don't appreciate it, but ... please fix the lag :)
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:22:00 - [219] And thats on top of everything else a noob must have. So prolly 2008! **** need to make a new sig...
Cadman Weyland ISS Navy Task Force	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:23:00 - [220] Originally by: Ozzie Asrail stuff Oks TomB can i get a refund on 150 odd days training ?
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:27:00 - [221] Originally by: Kylania Remembering for a moment that EVE is more than just 256 man fleet PvP.. how will this affect a small group of miners for instance? How would a 12 member corp mining op work? You can only have 10 people in a squadron so right away you need two squadron commanders, each with say 5 people? But than Squadron B won't get the bonuses of Squadon A's leader? So you'd need someone to be Wing Commander who has bonuses to affect everyone? And all our little gang bonuses we had are now worthless? My brain hurts from trying to figure this out. Your guy with the mining bonusses (who already has leadership 5 to get them) now trains the new skill 2 levels (2 hours training). He becomes a wing commander and creates 2 squads. You need 2 people each with leadership 3 (6 hours training) to become leaders of those two squads. Everyone now gets all the mining foreman etc skills as before from 6 hours of training - and you have the nifty little ping messages available to help co-ordinate and the whole server has less lag. Zarch AlDain
Mr Ninjaface Minmatar Shurekin INC	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:28:00 - [222] ccp should relize we dont want skills for something we could do before with out skills. What next Need to train docking 4 just to dock at a amarr station. Maybe stargate operation 5. Its bad enough you put in a skill for contracts but this new gang system is silly
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:32:00 - [223] Edited by: Sir Juri on 07/11/2006 22:32:14 Originally by: Mr Ninjaface ccp should relize we dont want skills for something we could do before with out skills. What next Need to train docking 4 just to dock at a amarr station. Maybe stargate operation 5. Its bad enough you put in a skill for contracts but this new gang system is silly **it you just reminded me of those skills to... OMG scanning skills new ones asswell and this... anything else? man now my stomache is starting to make sounds, and I aint hungry... ** need to make a new sig...
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:35:00 - [224] Originally by: Sir Juri Originally by: Matrix Aran Originally by: Serapis Aote Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: Serapis Aote you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead. He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features. which ones... clicking targets to show up on overview...still probably faster and easier to just call it over vent. Inviteing people to gang and assigning. I would think that if the actual FC told the placeholder guy to do it, he would. I look at this structure more as a gang bonus distribution mechanic then a RL leadership mechanic to be honest. You can plop anyone with the skills in the FC slot, and not much will change IMO. I could be wrong though. Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies. So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh? Your just full of it, let me guess you started this BS rumor? It's an n squared problem. 5 people in a gang means each person needs updates from 4 people. That is 54 lots of updates. 10 people means 109 50 people means 5049 100 people means 10099 200 people means 200*199 So 5: 20 calculations 10: 90 calculations 50: 2450 calculations 100: 9900 calculations 200: 39800 calculations Then consider that every time you take a hit it needs to work out who is boosting your resistance. Every time you lock a target who is boosting that, how about speed, shield hp? Every one of those things is constantly needing to be checked all the time by all the members. I'm sure it only checks every now and then and caches the result but even so thats 39 thousand calculations every second for each gang bonus. So with 12 gang modules, 5(?) gang skills and 4 titans thats 21 things being checked. So that is 835800 calculations/comparison every time this is updated. For each of those comparisons it needs to work out if you are in the same system, And that is just for gang skills - we aren't even considering hit points display etc at this point! Still don't see why it's a problem? Zarch AlDain
Eewec Ourbyni Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:38:00 - [225] Originally by: Zarch AlDain Originally by: Kylania Remembering for a moment that EVE is more than just 256 man fleet PvP.. how will this affect a small group of miners for instance? How would a 12 member corp mining op work? You can only have 10 people in a squadron so right away you need two squadron commanders, each with say 5 people? But than Squadron B won't get the bonuses of Squadon A's leader? So you'd need someone to be Wing Commander who has bonuses to affect everyone? And all our little gang bonuses we had are now worthless? My brain hurts from trying to figure this out. Your guy with the mining bonusses (who already has leadership 5 to get them) now trains the new skill 2 levels (2 hours training). He becomes a wing commander and creates 2 squads. You need 2 people each with leadership 3 (6 hours training) to become leaders of those two squads. Everyone now gets all the mining foreman etc skills as before from 6 hours of training - and you have the nifty little ping messages available to help co-ordinate and the whole server has less lag. And if a corp used some intelligence up to Kali and had different people train for various leadership skills so the whole gang got a good set... then this new gang system has royally screwed them. And to those saying that they are leadership skills and to get over it... they haven't said anything up to now about making this sort of change to skills some have been playing with for 3 years. This has moved skills that anyone could train something in and benefit the gang as a whole to skills that only those in 'leadership roles' in a gang need to train.... and yet they seem to think more people will train leadership skills.... ummmm somehow I doubt it, more likely lots of folks will just scrap their chars as this impacts virtually everything you do in game in a group. I foresee a major surplus of leadership mods on the market. This is a sig... -- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio -- ... good, ain't it!
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:38:00 - [226] So, let's see if I get this straight. How is a fleet formed? First you make an ordinary gang. The gang is a rabble of slavering veldspar miners with no organisation. From the gang you form a fleet with order and hierarchy - it's Rome in space. Who can invite to the gang/fleet? The gang owner/creator and the fleet commander can invite people into the gang/fleet. This person may be the same or it may be two different people. Can squadron commanders invite people (who are currently not in gang) into their squadrons? Who assigns roles in the gang? The Fleet Commander or the gang owner can assign people roles, and can top-manage the fleet. Who do I get gang bonuses from? All of your three commanders, provided they are in the same system. Period. The commanders can only be given directions by themselves, and thus only receive gang bonuses from themselves if there is someone from their squadron, wing or fleet respectively in the same solar system. Yeah, but that's a technical issue, what about in the future? Maybe the fleet commander will enjoy creme de la creme of the gang, get the best bonuses the commanders below him offers. Maybe. How large does the fleet need to be in order to get a wing or fleet commander? Logically, a fleet commander can be assigned as soon as there's any number of wing commanders to be commanded. Wing commanders can be assigned as soon as there's any number of squadron commanders. Squadron commanders can be assigned as soon as the fleet is formed. So, you need 4 people to assign a fleet commander. Is this true? Ok, enough of the formalities, who can do the show-and-tell on the primary target? The commanders broadcast this information to the people in their gang. This is a massive drawback, TomB! Gang-module using ships DO NOT have a place on the front line For squadrons the scout might be able to do this. So. Who is the taxi driver? Who warps me around? The commanders can warp everyone they command around. The fleet commander can warp the entire fleet around, for example - when you need that extra warp in lag. --- All in all, it seems like the role of the gang skill and gang module has been drastically changed. It went from being the absolute support to being the central figure of a gang. I can't say this is good. Essentially, the gang modules require so much capacitor, such an obviously specialized ship, and so much fitting that the ships running them in any serious number. In short, a gang boosting ship can not survive on the front line, where it needs to be. That is, if it is the commanders that do the useful broadcasts. Not that it'd do anything to TC, or any other decent combat organisations that do not need such visual orientation for focused fire - we'll still do it the old fashioned way. Essentially, the de facto fleet commanders will likely be a regular squadron member - giving the orders et al. Over all, I think good changes with one exception - the gang bonuses should stem from the one with the best bonuses in system, like previously. Face it, it's the only way to promote people using gang modules - to make the role readily available as a support role instead of the commander role. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:40:00 - [227] Edited by: Sir Juri on 07/11/2006 22:45:56 Originally by: Zarch AlDain Originally by: Sir Juri Originally by: Matrix Aran Originally by: Serapis Aote Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: Serapis Aote you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead. He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features. which ones... clicking targets to show up on overview...still probably faster and easier to just call it over vent. Inviteing people to gang and assigning. I would think that if the actual FC told the placeholder guy to do it, he would. I look at this structure more as a gang bonus distribution mechanic then a RL leadership mechanic to be honest. You can plop anyone with the skills in the FC slot, and not much will change IMO. I could be wrong though. Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies. So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh? Your just full of it, let me guess you started this BS rumor? It's an n squared problem. 5 people in a gang means each person needs updates from 4 people. That is 54 lots of updates. 10 people means 109 50 people means 5049 100 people means 10099 200 people means 200199 So 5: 20 calculations 10: 90 calculations 50: 2450 calculations 100: 9900 calculations 200: 39800 calculations Then consider that every time you take a hit it needs to work out who is boosting your resistance. Every time you lock a target who is boosting that, how about speed, shield hp? Every one of those things is constantly needing to be checked all the time by all the members. I'm sure it only checks every now and then and caches the result but even so thats 39 thousand calculations every second for each gang bonus. So with 12 gang modules, 5(?) gang skills and 4 titans thats 21 things being checked. So that is 835800 calculations/comparison every time this is updated. For each of those comparisons it needs to work out if you are in the same system, And that is just for gang skills - we aren't even considering hit points display etc at this point! Still don't see why it's a problem? I HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED THIS STATEMENT BEFORE! PLZ READ THE ANSWER I MADE THEN! SO do I still dont see the problem? read my old replies, ty. edit; on page 7 *** need to make a new sig...
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:43:00 - [228] Zarch AlDain, that is true unless the devs did it slightly less brute force and had the ships UPDATE when relevant - such as when a gang member enters or leaves system or gang instead of each time you take a hit. If they did it for each time you took a hit, then the gang updates is the least of your worries - just consider all the checks the client and server would need to do on your own ship! Is the hardener running? Yes. What is it's stacking penalty? 23%. Add that in. Check. Oh! Oh! New hit. Redo. Is the hardener running? - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Kylania Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:52:00 - [229] Originally by: Zarch AlDain Your guy with the mining bonusses (who already has leadership 5 to get them) now trains the new skill 2 levels (2 hours training). He becomes a wing commander and creates 2 squads. You need 2 people each with leadership 3 (6 hours training) to become leaders of those two squads. Everyone now gets all the mining foreman etc skills as before from 6 hours of training - and you have the nifty little ping messages available to help co-ordinate and the whole server has less lag. Ahh, ok I was right about the format of it thanks!! Can't remember which skill it was, but Leadership III was a "required for something cool" skill anyway, so that's taken care of. And to be honest, the ability to have three people inviting (Wing Commander and either of the Squad Commanders right?) is a great thing. Thanks for clearing that up!! -- Lil Miner Newbie Skills Roadmap \| CCG Card Lookup
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:58:00 - [230] Originally by: Ithildin Zarch AlDain, that is true unless the devs did it slightly less brute force and had the ships UPDATE when relevant - such as when a gang member enters or leaves system or gang instead of each time you take a hit. If they did it for each time you took a hit, then the gang updates is the least of your worries - just consider all the checks the client and server would need to do on your own ship! Is the hardener running? Yes. What is it's stacking penalty? 23%. Add that in. Check. Oh! Oh! New hit. Redo. Is the hardener running? Yes, that would help - you are still in an N squared situation but it reduces the frequency. Each time you log off, or jump system, or eject, or dock you would need to update every member of the gang still - so that's with everyone in the gang updating. Imagine a jump gate with a large gang now - each person telling every other person each time they jump, then recalculating each side etc. There are other optimisations too such as sorting the results in gang and only searching down the list until you find the first match. None of it changes the fact that the more people are in the gang the more load you get on an exponential curve. It also means that as you add more complexity along those lines you get more chances for obscure bugs and things going wrong. "we jumped three times and faught a battle and now I am getting Jonny's skirmish warfare 3 instead of Bob's skirmish warfare 5" Unlike most people here I am starting with the (possibly optimistic) assumption that the devs are competent and do actually know how to code and how eve works. It therefore seems likely that obvious optimisations such as those have either been tried or rejected for some technical reason. Zarch AlDain
marioman Caldari Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:07:00 - [231] ehhhh.... layout and new tools etc = good screwing over small-ish gangs and specialized gang assit characters = not good There is no reason to remove gang bonuses from the flat gang. You say its so people use the new system? wtf is that saying about your own confidence in your new system where you have to ** people over to force them to use your new system? You have ** over gangs of sizes ~20 people or so and those that coordinated with other people to train the different branches instead of one character training everything. Like I said, if the whole reason from removing gang bonuses from the flat gang is to make people use the new system....that doesnt speak very highly of your abilities or the thought you put into the new system. If the new system is so ***** great people would want to use it anyway. It would be like if some1 released a new OS for the PC and said if you install this you can never use windows because we disabled it, but its so good you you shouldnt want to use windows anymore anyway, at the same time they muttering under their breath "Good thing we put that Windows lock on the new OS, I was thinking people might just go back to windows".
marcouk2 Gallente Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:16:00 - [232] Originally by: Fi T'Zeh Someone might already have asked this, but wtf happens if my Fleet commander CTD's / lags out ? you prob have to spend the next 20mins reinviting everybody
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:16:00 - [233] Originally by: Sir Juri I HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED THIS STATEMENT BEFORE! PLZ READ THE ANSWER I MADE THEN! SO do I still dont see the problem? read my old replies, ty. edit; on page 7 You do not see that a 3*N problem is significently easier to deal with and scale than an n squared problem? Now each person in gang checks 3 people - squad leader, wing leader, fleet leader. That's it, 3 checks per person. So a hundred man gang has 300 checks instead of 9900, a two hundred man gang has 600 instead of 31 thousand, etc... Now for what it's worth I agree that there should be some consideration given to the role of command ships and being able to support each other better along with delegation of roles in the gang. I also think people are over reacting though and accusing someone of making things up and speaking BS (which you still haven't apologised to the person in question for) is hardly the way to make your case. Neither is shouting at me. Zarch AlDain
Fi T'Zeh Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:16:00 - [234] Someone might already have asked this, but wtf happens if my Fleet commander CTD's / lags out ? .... Real men use blasters
redeyehunter Minmatar Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:21:00 - [235] I have not particular objections to the new Fleet Command Setup. I mean heaven forebid that someone who has trained for a commandship is actually fleet commander. I took time to train for a Claymore not only because of gang bonus, but as name class suggest is a "commandship". Only thing I think the commandship really needs is a super targeting range boost even if cannons have no way in hell of hitting anything. For example 250km (or at least at range of longest range bs sniping range) lock range, so you can call targets for snipping fleets, just like real life feild commanders do a couple of miles behind front lines. the combat command ship can have less locking range because its supposed to be fighting If it had that kind of range I would be happy for the ship to be flashing colours of the rainbow to the enemy. This is just a suggestion.
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:22:00 - [236] Originally by: marcouk2 Originally by: Fi T'Zeh Someone might already have asked this, but wtf happens if my Fleet commander CTD's / lags out ? you prob have to spend the next 20mins reinviting everybody That was answered already by TomB. The fleet structure will stay in place but gang bonusses will not work until someone is promoted to take the fleet commanders place. It seems odd if it removes everyones bonusses though since you would still expect squad leaders to give their bonus to their squad even though everyone loses the fleet commander's bonus. Zarch AlDain
Jet Collins Dynamic Endeavors	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:25:00 - [237] It just seems silly to me that in a gang to 2 people who are both flying BC's that if they both activate there gang moduals only one of the bonuses will be affective. Kinda seems retarded, but I guess thats just me. So whats the point of BC haveing gang mod bonuses?
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:27:00 - [238] Originally by: Zarch AlDain Originally by: Sir Juri I HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED THIS STATEMENT BEFORE! PLZ READ THE ANSWER I MADE THEN! SO do I still dont see the problem? read my old replies, ty. edit; on page 7 You do not see that a 3N problem is significently easier to deal with and scale than an n squared problem? Now each person in gang checks 3 people - squad leader, wing leader, fleet leader. That's it, 3 checks per person. So a hundred man gang has 300 checks instead of 9900, a two hundred man gang has 600 instead of 31 thousand, etc... Now for what it's worth I agree that there should be some consideration given to the role of command ships and being able to support each other better along with delegation of roles in the gang. I also think people are over reacting though and accusing someone of making things up and speaking BS (which you still haven't apologised to the person in question for) is hardly the way to make your case. Neither is shouting at me. I dont have to excuse myself to you or him, and I shouted cause its the third time someone replies to that comment and I dont wanna repeat myself. One on the same page mind you. But anyway I stated what I think in my earlier replies and see no reason to repeat it all again, feel free to comment those posts or just read them and be done. PS: he posted his resourse and I replied to it, read that. And I made my case already. *** need to make a new sig...
Mr Ninjaface Minmatar Shurekin INC	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:43:00 - [239] Originally by: Jet Collins It just seems silly to me that in a gang to 2 people who are both flying BC's that if they both activate there gang moduals only one of the bonuses will be affective. Kinda seems retarded, but I guess thats just me. So whats the point of BC haveing gang mod bonuses? its IS retarded and its not just you Gang mod = entire gang, otherwise they are limited hierarchical mods of crap
Andreaz Kotz Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:51:00 - [240] So people with no REAL leadership skill that have spent the past year creating/training a character solely for gang modules will get their money back? please?
Yggdrassil Amarrian Missionaires	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:59:00 - [241] Regarding wing/fleet commanders etc being called primary every time in a battle: Would it be an option to create a mod that basically does something like this: 1. Increase all resistanses with 50%. 2. Increase ALL repairers, including remotes, with... 100-200%. 3. Lower all OFFENSIVE module/guns range with 99%. 4. Increase all recharge times with.... 200%. (to avoid being able to tank forever) 5. Lower cap usage of defensive modules/repairing modules with 50%. 6. The mods cycle time should be somewhat long - but not TOO long. 2-3 mins perhaps. Goal: Give option to mega-tank the command ship to avoid being killed immidiately in a battle, while NOT rendering it immortal. If you take out the fleet, or the fleet warps away, their commanders ARE vulnerable vs a few nos'es and will burn easily. Yggdrassil
Spaja Saist Gallente Knights of Retribution	Posted - 2006.11.08 00:39:00 - [242] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Jet Collins Ok Queston? OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever. One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills. In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses. In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct? If so this compleatly blows. Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead. I'm sorry but this is rediculous. Is there a reason you are nerfing gangs bonuses other than you seem to like nerfing stuff. What reason was there for making only one persons gang bonuses count?
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.11.08 00:44:00 - [243] Originally by: Spaja Saist Originally by: TomB Originally by: Jet Collins Ok Queston? OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever. One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills. In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses. In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct? If so this compleatly blows. Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead. I'm sorry but this is rediculous. Is there a reason you are nerfing gangs bonuses other than you seem to like nerfing stuff. What reason was there for making only one persons gang bonuses count? This has been explained time and time again - lag. It a large part of the reason fleets are currently unplayable. Why does this need to be repeated every 2 pages?
JForce The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.11.08 00:47:00 - [244] I like it, but the distribution of gang bonuses does need to be looked at. About Invention: From what we've seen on the test server, Invention is just a bad joke by CCP to try and stop our whining. With the current RP
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.08 00:50:00 - [245] Originally by: Testicular Testes Originally by: Spaja Saist Originally by: TomB Originally by: Jet Collins Ok Queston? OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever. One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills. In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses. In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct? If so this compleatly blows. Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead. I'm sorry but this is rediculous. Is there a reason you are nerfing gangs bonuses other than you seem to like nerfing stuff. What reason was there for making only one persons gang bonuses count? This has been explained time and time again - lag. It a large part of the reason fleets are currently unplayable. Why does this need to be repeated every 2 pages? The only reason? Still it doesn't justify this as the only solution. I find it hard to believe that. **** need to make a new sig...
Spaja Saist Gallente Knights of Retribution	Posted - 2006.11.08 00:57:00 - [246] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Mr Ninjaface Gang bonuses should affect the entire gang other wise you have to call them limited hierarchical bonuses of crap . No. You can say no all you want TomB but he's right. You are nerfing gang bonuses for no real reason other than your need to nerf **** all to hell and back. I'd like to see a reason for this nerf. But then again you've never given adequate reasons for the nerfing you do so I won't hold my breath.
Spaja Saist Gallente Knights of Retribution	Posted - 2006.11.08 01:01:00 - [247] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Darpz sorry don't like it. I like the interface changes, but I don't like the new gang setup for a numbers of reason It nerfs carriers and command ships hard since it forces them to be commanders for the gang bonus's to apply but this doesn't work normally because well carriers sit in safe/pos away from battle and command useually do that same or are support killers since they do not have the ablity to work at the ranges that battles happen. Its overly complex- yes its cool to read about but its just to complex. Running a fleet is complex enough without having to worry about inviting people into that mess. I can see TS now Person 1: X for gang FC: would a squadcommander invite him. SC1: sorry i'm full SC2: Sorry I'm full also SC4: Also Full SC5: yup same FC: SC3? SCI: he must be afk FC: ok will someone make a new squad? .... FC: so no else can make a squad? .... Person 1: nm i'm going ot play wow FC: hey wait I can invite anyone into any squad... WC1: oh yeah I can invite anyone to any squad in my wing! FC: dude I can even create a new squad and move some dude from some other squad to a commander position of it WC2: I mean that's so cool Gang Creator: hey I can do everything that the fleet commander can do, move people around and invite This still won't keep it from being a cluster**** when trying to form large fleets. It can be a pain just setting up one with our current system. Now you want to implament this overly complicated system. And once again the Devs make changes without giving the player base advanced notice. Think of all the SPs waisted because of this.
Spaja Saist Gallente Knights of Retribution	Posted - 2006.11.08 01:04:00 - [248] Originally by: Raucha Just because you're in a SC/WC/FC slot, doesn't mean you actually have to be in command of anything. Well, OK the FC/WC probably will be, but the SCs sure don't. If the WC can warp the Wing, the SCs can just hang out for the ride. Or, the SC/WC can be navigator and admin type, while another member of the gang uses something like, I dunno, TS or Vent to actually tell everyone what to do. That's how it works in a lot of gangs now anyways - gang leader does navigation and admin, while someone else in the gang actually directs the fight. The problem with this is most gangs in eve today would fit in the SC class. Only alliance blob warfare would need a FC.
Dalekplunger Slick Caldari DPS Holding Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.08 01:34:00 - [249] TomB - awesome changes. A++ I ask only two things Please. Please. Please. Let us rename fleets/wings/squads. Give us Wing chat. Thanks!
Spaja Saist Gallente Knights of Retribution	Posted - 2006.11.08 01:54:00 - [250] Originally by: Testicular Testes Originally by: Spaja Saist Originally by: TomB Originally by: Jet Collins Ok Queston? OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever. One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills. In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses. In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct? If so this compleatly blows. Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead. I'm sorry but this is rediculous. Is there a reason you are nerfing gangs bonuses other than you seem to like nerfing stuff. What reason was there for making only one persons gang bonuses count? This has been explained time and time again - lag. It a large part of the reason fleets are currently unplayable. Why does this need to be repeated every 2 pages? It would be better if they fix their crummy coding instead of changing the way gang bonus work after 3 years. A lot of people have trained skills that will now be wasted.
Cell Satimo Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.08 01:55:00 - [251] Originally by: Ozzie Asrail Just to give you an idea. Before a new player can hope to lead a proper fleet. Skill Plan for Elise Exige 1: Empathy I (7 minutes, 42 seconds; Start: 07/11/2006 22:15:33) ... 71: Wing Command I (1 hour, 12 minutes, 43 seconds; Start: 27/04/2007 07:16:10) 72: Wing Command II (5 hours, 38 minutes, 41 seconds; Start: 27/04/2007 08:28:53) 73: Wing Command III (1 day, 7 hours, 55 minutes, 51 seconds; Start: 27/04/2007 14:07:35) 74: Wing Command IV (7 days, 12 hours, 37 minutes, 46 seconds; Start: 28/04/2007 22:03:26) 75: Wing Command V (42 days, 13 hours, 47 minutes, 40 seconds; Start: 06/05/2007 10:41:13) Total time: 222 days, 2 hours, 13 minutes, 20 seconds; Completion: 18/06/2007 00:28:53 I think your time estimate is unrealistic, given that learning skills and ship cruiser skills are on most characters already. Pure time to learn the 6m points required in Leadership is only 4 months The good news (for me) is that I can start at point 70, the bad news is my game time has never enabled me to stay out on ops - my commander mode is typically AFK in a POS. Can I have my skill points back to spend on something else please? Eve Web-Ring Your guide to all sites In-Game and Out. Works in IGB
Nightblade Minmatar Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.08 01:57:00 - [252] Originally by: Zarch AlDain You do not see that a 3*N problem is significently easier to deal with and scale than an n squared problem? Now each person in gang checks 3 people - squad leader, wing leader, fleet leader. That's it, 3 checks per person. You seem to be under the impression that the calculations for damage, etc., are all done client side. None of these checks are done per-person (I hope) but rather for each segment of the gang in the same system. And the results of resolving the gang bonuses will be the same for all characters in the same gang segment. Restricting the gang bonuses to only 3 possible gang members is basically just a cop out, nothing more, especially if it can be simply recalculated, reapplied and broadcasted when a gang member undergoes a session change. Anyway, the short of it is there's no way in hell that this problem is anywhere near as complex as you're making it out to be. But then again, someone somewhere once thought bubble sort was a good idea, so who knows how it's implemented.
Admentus Cor'vion Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.08 02:33:00 - [253] Originally by: Nightblade Originally by: Zarch AlDain You do not see that a 3*N problem is significently easier to deal with and scale than an n squared problem? Now each person in gang checks 3 people - squad leader, wing leader, fleet leader. That's it, 3 checks per person. You seem to be under the impression that the calculations for damage, etc., are all done client side. None of these checks are done per-person (I hope) but rather for each segment of the gang in the same system. And the results of resolving the gang bonuses will be the same for all characters in the same gang segment. Restricting the gang bonuses to only 3 possible gang members is basically just a cop out, nothing more, especially if it can be simply recalculated, reapplied and broadcasted when a gang member undergoes a session change. Anyway, the short of it is there's no way in hell that this problem is anywhere near as complex as you're making it out to be. But then again, someone somewhere once thought bubble sort was a good idea, so who knows how it's implemented. Biggest problem is "Hey, lets pile 3 months of skills to characters who wish to command gangs". Nightblade is incredibly gifted in the math / science / programming genere, so I suggest everybody take an ear and recognize that if your not looking at the code your conjectures about what calculations cause X when may be fun and interesting and make you feel smart, but are irrevocably pointless due to the fact that most don't have exact specifications / code sitting in front of them as to how the current upgrades are going to work. Hopefully that puts me down to 1, NB. ^_^ _______________________________________________ Black Avatar - One of the oldest corps in Eve. "The end and the beginning."
Sinnbad Mayhem	Posted - 2006.11.08 02:37:00 - [254] Nice features. Hopefully once the lag has been reduced these features will be welcome addition. At the moment, Lag has reduced EVE to ransoming nodes not people S&M
Tareen Kashaar eXin Alliance Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.08 02:57:00 - [255] Yeah, I was gonna say... With EVE getting more and more complex, and the UI being laggy as it is, PLEASE GIVE US MORE KEYBOARD SHORTCUTS!! Kthx. Things that come to mind: - switch active locked target - switch chat channel - lock/unlock targets - launch/command/recall drones I love this game's complexity, but I would love it even more if the interface was more user friendly :) That said... lub the new system :) --- WTS: Forum Signatures, 30mil a piece. Evemail me!
Capt Harlock Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.08 03:14:00 - [256] my head hurts 0?
Trojanman190 Caldari Entropy Tech.	Posted - 2006.11.08 03:21:00 - [257] Simply amazing. I absolutely cant wait to use this!
Golerre Evraun	Posted - 2006.11.08 03:46:00 - [258] any chance you can add a "hey i need a can picked up" broadcast for our 256 man mining blobs? ---------------------------------------- If you ain't dyin, You Ain't tryin.
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 03:57:00 - [259] Well for the most part it all sounds like good stuff, there are just 2 things that concern me: 1) the rank of these skills seems pretty dam high, I realise this is probably to make those “real” fleet commanders be the ones who train for and have these skills, as opposed to everyone who thinks they would be cool to have, the problem is that there are many people in lots of corps who Do have leaderships skills, gang bonus mods, and the ships to use them on, Also... For some time after kali hits, I’m guessing at least a week or 2, alliances will be limited to fleets of 50 people, now I know TomB said otherwise, but that’s not what the actual skills on sisi say to my understanding, it seems by the descriptions on the skillbooks that the size in numbers of the fleet will be limited by the skills, so... I propose that either the rank of skills should be seriously decreased to rank 1 to 4, somewhere around there, even if only temporally to be changed in a later patch, to make sure that it will not have an adverse effect on alliance operations, we are talking here about the security of outposts, POSes, carriers, dreadnaughts, freighters etc. Or, release the skills Wayyy ahead of Kali to make sure that those that need to command such fleets can do so effectively the day kali hits. 2) since Command ships and Carriers are now going to be the ship of choice for all fleet commanders wishing to give there fleet the edge of gang (fleet) bonuses, possibly a little carrier love is in order, I’m thinking a 50%+ bonus to fighter hitpoints to coincide with the 50% kali is bringing to all other ships, AND an option to toggle weather or not fighters follow there targets in warp, AND a bonus to capital remote reppers and possibly carrier capacitors in order to effectively use them in the longer fights that be in sue, not to mention the fact that the carrier with a known fleet commander will OBVIOUSLEY be called primary so I’m sure we will be seeing a lot more duel repper setups being fitted. Hell I’m even tempted to say it wouldn’t be overkill to give them all an extra low (Armor tanker) or mid (shield tanker) slot. </shameless carrier love> --- (.)(.) These are boobs. No need to copy and paste them into your sig, they have already gained world domination. Sorry Bunny.
su nutan	Posted - 2006.11.08 04:15:00 - [260] Armored Warfare / Rank 2 / SP: 512000 of 512000 Armored Warfare Specialist / Rank 5 / SP: 226275 of 1280000 Information Warfare / Rank 2 / SP: 512000 of 512000 Information Warfare Specialist / Rank 5 / SP: 226275 of 1280000 Leadership / Rank 1 / SP: 256000 of 256000 Siege Warfare / Rank 2 / SP: 512000 of 512000 Siege Warfare Specialist / Rank 5 / SP: 226275 of 1280000 Skirmish Warfare / Rank 2 / SP: 512000 of 512000 Skirmish Warfare Specialist / Rank 5 / SP: 226275 of 1280000 Squadron Command / Rank 6 / SP: 1536000 of 1536000 +10 Leadership skills trained, for a total of 4,745,100 skillPoints. Oh, Yaa lovely hmm i wonder what job i'm going for LOL
Treelox Amarr Solar Storm Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.08 05:05:00 - [261] great so now my high CHA is useless. I dont want to be a FC, WC, SC. I like to STFU, and be told what to do, I dont consider myself a "leader" of fleet like activities. Well this now means that its useless for me to train "support" skills, gang links, since I dont plan on leading anything. If this "NERF" to gang links, and their effects on your fellow gang/fleet/squad/wing m8's, is seriously due to lag reduction efforts. Then leave it as currently is, ill deal with that lag. Or, Have it so that the FC designates the players that bonus will apply to the whole op, that should cut down on the system load issues. If you had all 4 types of gang links going, that would most likely only be 4 players skills that would need to be "checked" by all other gang m8s. But seeing as how this is already on SISI, and TomB has already made his position clear with great answers like; Originally by: TomB No. I guess that means we are stuck with this, so much for player driven content. /me bends over and takes it up arse some more from TomB p.s. can I now trade back 4 or 5 of my base CHA points for something more usefull to my style of play? Since you have changed command ships from a support role to a leadership role. -- Signature edited - this is your last warning - Jacques
Zadera	Posted - 2006.11.08 06:25:00 - [262] So how about you allow people like me, who "WASTED" thier time on support skill training cause it was what the corp/alliance needed, to realicate our skills. A one time good deal to allow us the ability to salvage our characters seems to be in order. Swapping Leadership/Gang Mod skills for Missile/Gunnery skills would be acceptable.
Kerules Yor	Posted - 2006.11.08 06:28:00 - [263] The big, BIG tragedy in all this is the unfortunate confusion that has occured between leadership/command and bonuses/assists. That whole skill section is a long standing misnomer. It hasn't been a problem until now because the people who trained them knew that they were actually training gang assist skills and ships. But now if those want to use their bonuses at all they're being forced to hold the reigns of a fleet into battle. Even if someone else tells them which buttons to press, that's a kludgy workaround. The FC tools should be in the hands of the FCs. The best suggestion I've seen about it is to let real FCs occupy the chain of command and manually designate the people who give gang bonuses separately. Either put them in a special squad, or (and I like this better) marking them with special roles, similar to the Scout role. You could have one "Fleet Assist" pilot marked (FlAsst) in the fleet, one (WiAsst) in each wing division and one (SqAsst) per squad. It would provide exactly the same "tree" of gang bonuses as the current proposed system, but the FC tools would be in the hands of the ones who need them. And if the FC wants to use his own gang bonus he can be both (Cmdr) and (FlAsst). Flexibility is good!
Ghyuoieaz	Posted - 2006.11.08 06:30:00 - [264] What the hell were you on when you thought it was a good idea to tie in skill based bonuses with orginizational ability when dealing with an already underused ship type. Got news for you, noone wants to fly command ships all the ****ed time, if at all, and no gang is ever going to sacrifice orginizational ability for some bonus that is in the grand scheme of things completely worthless compared to the ability for a fleet to be tacticly superior. Take your lessons on group bonuses from the WoW Shaman team eh?
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.08 06:53:00 - [265] Edited by: James Duar on 08/11/2006 06:56:07 After having read the comments here, I agree with the contention that this is in fact a terrible idea. The ability to manage a squad is being tied to in-game skills - WTF? The ability to do this is tied to your real-life skills and there's no way you can compensate with whatever boosts you want. Furthermore, it really does make no sense to have the bonuses limited to the leadership roles. The bonuses themselves don't make sense being limited to the leadership roles. Armored Warfare? The bonus is akin to the one guy who's really good at managing how your ships armor behaves. He doesn't have to the leader. If he is the leader then he shouldn't be watching my armor because he's supposed to be calling targets and managing the fight. I'm really completely failing to see how this change is bringing anything to the game. It seems like needless complexity that won't actually address the problem of making fleet fights more interesting while severely nerfing the flexibility of who leads a gang, and the process of formation of one. EDIT: To add some more RL context to how senseless this seems - an AEGIS cruiser can coordinate the air defenses of a large group of ships to shoot down enemy aircraft as I understand it. But it does not lead a carrier group. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
Nade'em	Posted - 2006.11.08 06:58:00 - [266] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Jet Collins Ok Queston? OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever. One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills. In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses. In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct? If so this compleatly blows. Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead. This is ******* stupid... you've just trashed a bunch of toons.
Hellena Minmatar One Hundred Zeros Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.08 07:01:00 - [267] new gang mechanics /signed been needing things like this for some time. makes command ships actually important =P Not Just Another Pretty Face La Maison Hostess
Kerules Yor	Posted - 2006.11.08 07:11:00 - [268] Edited by: Kerules Yor on 08/11/2006 07:13:15 Originally by: Nade'em Originally by: TomB Originally by: Jet Collins Ok Queston? OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever. One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills. In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses. In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct? If so this compleatly blows. Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead. This is ******* stupid... you've just trashed a bunch of toons. Also agreeing with this. The very small gangs of 2 or 3 people are getting a very raw deal. I mean geez, small gangs are not fleets, they're gangs. They simply don't have the numbers to make task-specialised squads, but gang members should still be able to cooperate, right? And though it's a O(n*n) problem, if n is small it's no burden on the servers, right? If I had a say, I'd keep plain gangs functioning as the do right now, with full bonus calculation, but cap the size even lower to 10 or even 5. Roving gank squad size. If you have more than that, sorry, form a fleet and start organising task units. But I wouldn't hold my breath for that. I expect they're ripping out all the old gang bonus code from Kali.
Mi Lai Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.08 07:18:00 - [269] Edited by: Mi Lai on 08/11/2006 07:20:15 Originally by: Andreaz Kotz So people with no REAL leadership skill that have spent the past year creating/training a character solely for gang modules will get their money back? please? Yeah, just great isnt it? 3 of my mates have trained up CBC's in the last months, none of them actually want to lead fights, but liked to train something that would help the gang if they got time to log into EVE and join an op with their corpmates. On the bright side, you might be able to sell those characters pretty decently when Kali hits. Is it usual in EVE to have a patch kill off a total specialisation? At least in WoW you can spend some gold and re-spec your talent points after a change. As far as my corp is concerned, this change is very unwelcome. We have close to 23/7 gang activity, with various different people joining and leaving gangs all the time, meaning we will need tons of people, close to all of us, training up those Leadership Skills just to get our gangs out as we have been doing happily since we were all noobs in Frigates. I can just imagine: - 'Large Enemy Fleet Spotted 2 jumps from here, everybody assemble!' - 'No, Johny hasnt logged in yet, and he is the only one able to form the fleet of the size needed. Everybody go Safe!' Instead of helping to get gangs / fleets formed, it will probably work against it for us in the first months, as we need to find ways to get our newer guys working together when we dont have the people with Leadership Skills online, probably via TeamSpeak and whatever band aid we can apply. Also, adding more skills to do one of the few things people could do effectively by being organised / smart about it regardless of Skillpoints is not what EVE needs in my opinion. EVE allready has a ton of skills for a new player to go through to become effective in PVP (2 months of Learning Skills, 2 Months for the basic fitting skills, a couple of months for the T2 Tank and Guns). What's next? Skills added to be able to trade on Escrow??
Eewec Ourbyni Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.08 07:20:00 - [270] Originally by: Mi Lai Originally by: Andreaz Kotz So people with no REAL leadership skill that have spent the past year creating/training a character solely for gang modules will get their money back? please? Yeah, just great isnt it? 3 of my mates have trained up CBC's in the last months, none of them actually want to lead fights, but liked to train something that would help the gang if they got time to log into EVE and join an op with their corpmates. On the bright side, you might be able to sell those characters pretty decently when Kali hits. Is it usual in EVE to have a patch kill off a total specialisation? At least in WoW you can spend some gold and re-spec your talent points after a change. As far as my corp is concerned, this change is very unwelcome. We have close to 23/7 gang activity, with various different people joining and leaving gangs all the time, meaning we will need tons of people, close to all of us, training up those Leadership Skills just to get our gangs out as we have been doing happily since we were all noobs in Frigates. I can just imagine: - 'Large Enemy Fleet Spotted 2 jumps from here, everybody assemble!' - 'No, Johny hasnt logged in yet, and he is the only one able to form the fleet of the size needed. Everybody go Safe!' Also, adding more skills to do one of the few things people could do effectively by being organised / smart about it regardless of Skillpoints is not what EVE needs in my opinion. EVE allready has a ton of skills for a new player to go through to become effective in PVP (2 months of Learning Skills, 2 Months for the basic fitting skills, a couple of months for the T2 Tank and Guns). What's next? Skills added to be able to trade on Escrow?? heh... I thought you did need a new skill for the escrow replacement 'contracts'. This is a sig... -- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio -- ... good, ain't it!
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.08 07:36:00 - [271] This whole thing is far too convoluted. I say completely rid the skill requirements for this altogether - they're retarded, and make no sense gameplay-wise. Re: support skills, I'm failing to see how as they are currently can be causing so much overhead. Gang forms - support skills get put into a list, list gets summed, effects are applied to all. When a ship dies, the list is checked to see if it's on it, and an update is done to the entire gang. There is no "each ship checks every other ship" behavior necessary here. I really don't see how this is an O(n^2) problem. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
Kerules Yor	Posted - 2006.11.08 07:46:00 - [272] Edited by: Kerules Yor on 08/11/2006 07:54:34 Originally by: James Duar I really don't see how this is an O(n^2) problem. I imagine the overhead comes from having to keep the bonuses updated in real time, and the dominant bonus can change at any time if someone levels up in the middle of a fight, or warfare link mods turned on or off. Basically the "list" needs to resorted every time any number of things happen. I don't know if it's n^2, might be only n*logn, but it's frequent. edit: Oh, updating the health bars of everyone in gang to everyone else in gang is n^2... But so is updating everyone's ship position to everyone else. I dunno man.

TomB	Posted - 2006.11.08 08:02:00 - [273] Originally by: Mr Ninjaface TomB you added all the board cast stuff etc (i need cap armor/shield) The current targeting system makes cap transfers sheild transfers hard during battle if you have say a cap transfer on your apoc but you also have 7 turrets. You then have to lock you friend and cap transfer him then in the heat of the battle remember not to start shooting the crap out of him because hes locked. Can we have a sperate locking system for gang mates on that you cant activate hostile modules on unless you specify that you want to do so or something. We want logistic modules to be easier in use, there are a couple of ideas: - Targeting gang members requires 0 seconds. - Logistic modules ain't target modules, they get a curser when left-clicked and instantly activated when a target has been selected. - Something else But can't promise anything for Kali. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

SengH Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.11.08 08:04:00 - [274] Okay after fooling around with it on test. Heres how it works as of the build on sisi today. You can create 5 wings/5squads each and fill it with as many people as you want without having the requisite skills. I created 5 wings with 5 squads each (total of 25 squads) with just wing command 1. However If you want the gang bonuses to apply you need the people in the requisite places to commute the gang bonuses. For the individual pilot to get gang bonuses that the fleet commander is applying. The following people must be undocked and in system fleet, wing and squadron commander. You can promote people to squadron commander/wing commander without having the prerequsite skills. However you lose the ability to commute the gang bonuses down that chain. ---------------------------------------- Back for a month cus Awu5 finished.....

TomB	Posted - 2006.11.08 08:04:00 - [275] Originally by: EvilNate zomg!! This stuff is really so fracking cool. I have a question about the new gang system that doesn't relate to pvp at all. Currently in pretty much any MMORPG, when a player does a mission/quest/whatever, he is able to share that mission/quest/whatever with another player. That player can the recieve a split of the LP and standings gains too. Any chance we will see this implemented any time in the next 2837492874 years? Nate That will happen in next update, we are throwing people into it who will be focusing on the agent/mission system. Improve it, tie it up with other mechanics and make it good, instead of so that it's not good, which is bad. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .


TomB	Posted - 2006.11.08 08:06:00 - [276] Originally by: Mongo Smith Thanks for the prompt responses TomB. Not sure if its been mentioned before or not, one feature that would be useful would be the ability to rename each wing/fleet/squadron to aid in the organisation. That's one of the features that might not be coming in with Kali, but as I said the skeleton allows us to improve the gang mechanic easily so you will see it in future updates. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

SengH Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.11.08 08:08:00 - [277] errh tomb you should have shown them the ability to break the wing out from the overview. That might have cooled tempers a bit. Also about compartmentalization of information. Is that a possibility of going in before kali? The average guy in the squad doesnt need to to know who the fleet commander at the top is. ---------------------------------------- Back for a month cus Awu5 finished.....

TomB	Posted - 2006.11.08 08:15:00 - [278] Originally by: Miranda Duvall Edited by: Miranda Duvall on 07/11/2006 16:53:37 Would it be possible to get a skill rename? Just for clarity.. As it stands now: you can command a fleet: Fleet Command you can command a wing: Wing Command you can command a squadron: Leadership you are very good with gang modules: Squadron Command Please change it into: Current "Leadership" becomes "Squadron Command" Current "Squadron Command" becomes "Warfare Link Specialist" All the names then actually reflect what they do, keeping the current "Squadron Command" as is will generate a lot of confusion, and if you're ever going to change it, now is the time, since it's all new to all of us anyway. The existing Squadron Command skill has already been renamed, the Leadership skill will how ever keep the name for now. Reason being voice recordings, translations, text editing in multiple locations and whole lot of other things. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 08:18:00 - [279] Originally by: Derran What kind of commander leads a fleet when he doesn't even know what is going on? You are an RP'r, right? suspicious look Roleplay wise Hardin has always taken a back seat to the combat to let his sister Siobhan do the pew pew. Hardin is, as you probably know, a high charisma character and as such is job has always been a desk jockey back room commander while Siobhan lays on the holy smackdown. Now you should know me well enough to know that I will adapt and live with whatever changes do come in. However, this doesn't mean that I cannot point out some obvious flaws in the proposed approach in the hope that they get fixed before implementation. My original concerns still stand. What was/is the point spending 6 to 9 months training gang, battlecruiser & command ship skills, purchasing a mindlink and liasing with other members in the alliance to ensure that we specialise in different aspects of gang suppoort when apparently the bonuses of only one gang memember will apply across the whole fleet? So what is the point of having more than one Command Ship per fleet apart from redundancy in the event that the mmain fleet commander is wasted/disconnected? Now maybe I am misunderstanding how this works so TomB please correct me if I am wrong On top of this Command Ships now have to lead the fleet into battle in order that their bonuses apply. Now, while command ships have good resists and tank, they simply don't have the capacity to survive being called primary - which is what will happen in each and every fleet battle. Yes there are ways around it i.e. having the fleet commander warp in 100km behind the fleet or to a prearranged (in grid) spot prior to battle commencing but this just seems like an unnecessary complication and delay to to getting action started. You could say fair enough about all of this, but when you view the price of command ships, the cost of their modules, the cost of the mindlink implant and then add the HUGE training requirement to fly and operate all of the above I am not sure what incentive people will have to train for command ships when they have just had a huge bullseye painted onto them? People trained for gang/command ships to give gang bonuses to their gang mates, in the same way that some people specialise in EW, others in Inties, others focus on damage etc. Now we are being told that as a result of that choice we have to be frontline PvPers/Commanders (even if the real command still happens through vent). Anyway as I said above I will live with this and deal with it if it comes in - I do after all only train Amarr ships/weapons (how's that for roleplay Mr. Minmatar Thanatos pilot) so I have in effect already nerfed myself. However, I would still like CCP to look at the gang stuff more closely before it is implemented as it simply seems to messy to me. Just my opinion - don't shoot me... ------------------------------ Blog's back - for now
Hathi	Posted - 2006.11.08 08:22:00 - [280] OK, some (possibly) useful changes to big fleet/blob combat. Any chance of the old gangs working as they do now for smaller numbers, ie 10-20 players. Some of us would quite like to run mining ops/missions without needing to set-up multiple layers of leadership just to get a boost to the ships. Not at though we've already spent 3+ months skilling for gang ASSIST modules already...... Atleast when you "balance" things normally they still work, and don't suddenly become next-to-useless.

TomB	Posted - 2006.11.08 08:52:00 - [281] Originally by: Zarch AlDain Originally by: marcouk2 Originally by: Fi T'Zeh Someone might already have asked this, but wtf happens if my Fleet commander CTD's / lags out ? you prob have to spend the next 20mins reinviting everybody That was answered already by TomB. The fleet structure will stay in place but gang bonusses will not work until someone is promoted to take the fleet commanders place. It seems odd if it removes everyones bonusses though since you would still expect squad leaders to give their bonus to their squad even though everyone loses the fleet commander's bonus. If the Fleet Commander has a CTD or a BSOD or throws his mouse at the wall and it falls on the on/off button of the power strip and the PC shuts down; then you will always have a (boss) who has the same roles as the fleet commander but not a commander, he can promote a new fleet commander. We were also working on auto-promote feature but it's complicated and might get cut for Kali. On bonuses: Wing and Squad Commanders will continue giving bonuses as their groups are still active, the only change will be that the Fleet Commander stops giving bonuses. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

Boogey Trollias FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.08 08:57:00 - [282] It was about time to nerf the last fun part of eve - gangs that go roaming in moments notice. It suits rest of eve much better, that after someone suggests forming up a gang <to do something> it takes hour or two to get everything sorted out. Tho during all that sorting most of the people log out anyways, so why go roaming, it just takes precious server resources..
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:02:00 - [283] The problem is, we're going to have to live through this before it gets changed back to something useful. I don't have this reaction often, but this is looking like one of the changes to which there is no "adapt" mechanic - you just die. I'd like to hear an explanation as to how gang bonuses get applied on the server now, compared to how this will save server time and reduce lag. At the very least, the bonus givers should be independent of the squad leaders. And to make this work at all anyway, there has to be some way to actually protect ships in fleet combat from being called primary if they're going to have to be on the frontlines. I can't help but think this whole thing doesn't seem very well thought out. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:12:00 - [284] Originally by: Admentus Cor'vion Biggest problem is "Hey, lets pile 3 months of skills to characters who wish to command gangs". Hmmm. Unless you're talking about gangs of over 40 people, it's a training time of max 12-13 days even if you're starting from scratch. Assuming you're not a charisma 3-5 twink, in which case you do lose (and can blame yourself). For bigger gangs/fleets, yes, the training time will be longish, you need Wing Commander V which is rank 8... so that's what, 40 days extra about? So for 50 people you'd need something like 50+ days, starting from scratch. After that it speeds up for a while, because with Fleet Command III (quick to train even though it's rank 12 or something) you get 150 people (3 wings). So you'd actually need those 3 months if you wanted to lead fleets of 200-250 people. How many people really need to do that? I suspect the quick-to-train-for max 40 people fleet is big enough for a vast majority of situations. If you really need huge 200+ person fleets, then yes, you need someone to train for many months in order to be an FC. And remember, you can still form those fleets without any skills. The training req only applies if you want to have someone give gang bonuses to the whole fleet -- which is a big thing when we're talking about 200+ people being boosted. So yes, this is a slight nerf to the gang modules. It also makes sense, the old system of parking a command ship / carrier in a safespot and having it boost 200+ people with no effort was idiotic. Also remember: this will affect everyone. It's not like you're the only ones having to train this; if you train this and your enemies don't, you'll have the edge. Sure, big alliances who are used to easily boosting everyone in a mega-gang will scream, wail and gnash their teeth (witness this forum and the one in the Kali dev section with the Goon whinefest ). That's to be expected.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:14:00 - [285] Originally by: James Duar The problem is, we're going to have to live through this before it gets changed back to something useful. I don't have this reaction often, but this is looking like one of the changes to which there is no "adapt" mechanic - you just die. Lay off the hyperbole, it's bad for your health. If you suddenly "just die" because you don't get gang bonuses for the few weeks someone trains up the skills, then you have problems that are no way related to this change....
Jocca Quinn Matari BackBone	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:16:00 - [286] Originally by: Miranda Duvall Edited by: Miranda Duvall on 07/11/2006 16:53:37 Would it be possible to get a skill rename? Just for clarity.. As it stands now: you can command a fleet: Fleet Command you can command a wing: Wing Command you can command a squadron: Leadership you are very good with gang modules: Squadron Command Please change it into: Current "Leadership" becomes "Squadron Command" Current "Squadron Command" becomes "Warfare Link Specialist" All the names then actually reflect what they do, keeping the current "Squadron Command" as is will generate a lot of confusion, and if you're ever going to change it, now is the time, since it's all new to all of us anyway. Thats a good point, things are going to be confusing enough without misleading skill titles, and its not the first time they have been renamed. Escort Tactics anyone. JQ none of us are free as long as one of us is chained none of us are free

TomB	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:16:00 - [287] Gang Bonuses & Server Performance Yes, it is supposed to improve server performance in fleet combat. Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders We have been considering the ability for Squadron Commanders to reassign their role of boosting the Squadron to another Squadrom Members. It's not trivial how ever and we are to close to release for this to happen now. Broadcast Role This is something we have been considering to counter the Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders; Squadron Commander could assign broadcast roles to a Squadron Member. It's much easier for us to do, but still can't promise that it will get done for Kali. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:17:00 - [288] Why is not being there, when the skill is Armor boosting, not make sense? This is EVE. We have FTL communications everywhere. Why can a module which is basically a dedicated co-processor to the pod pilot not provide the same support from at least the same system? Well, I could invent some reasons, but I think my main issue is simply that there's no Line Of Sight or anything like that in the game, and so what we've got is a system where all the single command ships go down first, and then you've got a mad scramble to keep promoting people to even try and keep it working, in the midst of a fight. If the issues with no type of LoS at all in a fleet battle were fixed, then this would not be so bad because you have a chance to screen and protect smaller ships with bigger ships etc. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:25:00 - [289] Originally by: Eewec Ourbyni [ It's more the complete and total lack of any cross bonus'. Before you got the bonus your gang mates gave out and they got yours. Now normal "rank and file" pilots only get the bouns' from possibly three people in their chain of command. That means that small gangs are up the creak right there. Are you honestly trying to tell me that in a lowsec gang of 10 people only 1 person was giving out any bonus to the gang? So it's not just the new leadership skills the fleet/wing/gang commander needs to train, but also all of the other bonus' they wish their fleet/wing/gang to have. That's a lot of training. I realize that. But also keep in mind that everyone is in the same boat. It's not like you get hit by this and your enemies don't. In effect, it's a uniform reduction of bonuses for everyone, which won't have any effect in your warfare. Assuming it's pvp you're talking about, it will of course have some effect for ratting and mining gangs in the beginning.
Eewec Ourbyni Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:26:00 - [290] Edited by: Eewec Ourbyni on 08/11/2006 09:31:42 Edited by: Eewec Ourbyni on 08/11/2006 09:27:00 Originally by: Alex Harumichi The amount of whining from people here who are shocked and dismayed that Leadership skills and Command ships suddenly will start applying to, you know, "leadership" and "command", is quite amusing. Need more popcorn. That would be because up till now it wasn't needed to get CCP to split those skills up into better named groups so they were Command, Leadership and Support... notice the complete lack of any group called support, then look at the skill descriptions and notice how many mention the role of support rather than leadership or command. Up to this change this syntactic error in the skill groupings wasn't important, now it is, so now you get the complaints about it. Also, those 31 command positions in a total fleet (once you get a fleet commmander that can handle that many command positions) are the only people whose mods/ships/skills/implant gang bonus' are going to work for their segment of the fleet. This is going to take some serious testing just to find out if it's even possible to get the required mixture of all of those into the limited slots available and still have ships that are viable in PvP/NPC ratting etc. Yet CCP look to be wanting to push this to live quickly... so is there going to be enough time to actually test it all.... This is a sig... -- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio -- ... good, ain't it!
Boogey Trollias FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:28:00 - [291] Edited by: Boogey Trollias on 08/11/2006 09:31:40 Originally by: Alex Harumichi So you'd actually need those 3 months if you wanted to lead fleets of 200-250 people. How many people really need to do that? Almost everyone in a bigger alliance whom fleet commmands even occasionally will need to read skills rather far. And in addition to that you will have to read lots of skills for gang bonuses and command ships AND in addition to that having any level of leadership in fleet hierarcy makes it basicly impossible to go afking. "AFKing you ask? You shouldn't be AFKing while in fleet." That's a pile of crap. Alliance operations involve a lot of operations that last for 12+ hours and plenty of people are practicly forced to go AFKing sometime during. Now that your wife comes screaming or baby drops out of the bed you'll just have to stay clued to computer as you just cannot easily pass leadership position to someone else. Alliance gangs just become a micromanagement hell. Previously I tought I'll read these skills, but hell no, no ******* way I'm forcing myself to be in a position of FC 23/7 clued to computer. I'm not even that good of an FC, but being online and having skills, I'd just have to take the job.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:28:00 - [292] Originally by: Eewec Ourbyni Originally by: Alex Harumichi The amount of whining from people here who are shocked and dismayed that Leadership skills and Command ships suddenly will start applying to, you know, "leadership" and "command", is quite amusing. Need more popcorn. That would be because up toill now it wasn't needed to get CCP to slit those skills up into better named groups so they were Command, Leadership and Support... notice the complete lack of any group called support, then look at the skill descriptions and notice how many mention the role of support rather than leadership or command. Up to this change this syntactic error in the skill groupings wasn't important, now it is, so now you get the complaints about it. Yeah. I was just making light fun of peoples' extreme reactions there, I do realize why they are complaining of course. Well, some of them at least. I personally see this as bringing much more good than bad, but it will be a huge change.
Treelox Amarr Solar Storm Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:31:00 - [293] Originally by: TomB Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders We have been considering the ability for Squadron Commanders to reassign their role of boosting the Squadron to another Squadrom Members. It's not trivial how ever and we are to close to release for this to happen now. Hopefully you mean for squadron, wing and fleet commanders. How could you guys been considering this option and not realised that the one thats on SISI right now would not stir a hornets nest up? -- Signature edited - this is your last warning - Jacques
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:32:00 - [294] Originally by: Boogey Trollias Originally by: Alex Harumichi So you'd actually need those 3 months if you wanted to lead fleets of 200-250 people. How many people really need to do that? Almost everyone in a bigger alliance whom fleet commmands even occasionally. And in addition to that you will have to read lots of skills for gang bonuses and command ships AND in addition to that having any level of leadership in fleet hierarcy makes it basicly impossible to go afking. Ok, fair enough. I don't really have an anwer to that, other than either use multiple smaller fleet and coordinate via TS or train up the new skills. Both have their own problems, of course, and as you note, you'd need multiple people with FC skills to be able to switch roles while you go AFK (or go link dead, or whatever).
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:34:00 - [295] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 08/11/2006 09:23:42 Originally by: James Duar ...so what we've got is a system where all the single command ships go down first, and then you've got a mad scramble to keep promoting people to even try and keep it working, in the midst of a fight. Dunno, that sounds like real-life warfare to me. If the commanding officer is killed, there is a mad scramble to figure out who is next in line to command. Real-life comparisons are always dangerous, of course, but that makes total sense to me. And brings a new strategic element to EVE warfare, which is good imho. Now FCs will have to decide whether enemy commanders, EW ships or something else get called primary first. Choices choices. Added: it would be nice to have an automatic promotion list in the game, of course. So that if the FC is killed, there would automatically be a second-in-command who would become FC. I think auto-promote is simply a must, if only for lag reasons. Incidentally, I wasn't implying I'd die from not getting gang bonuses, I said that the change didn't seem like one where we'd adapt and get used to it and find some new type of awesome at all - usually I can see that though maybe I think something different should happen. This...this I can't see that for. Anyway, regarding the real life comparison - well it wasn't one there. I mean, if the real fleet commander dies in a battle, you do have a problem in battle because they're not on the front line anymore giving directions. But we've got, on top of that, this added mechanic that bonus giving doesn't work. It seems more akin to having the medic leading the squad of troops. I can't help but think that what's going to happen here is, a whole bunch of people with command ship/bonus abilities will be made leaders, and Teamspeak will be used so someone else is actually driving - OR - the whole logistics/gang-assist aspect will disappear entirely since they'll always die within seconds in a fight. I think the latter is much more likely. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
Jerusalem Man Farmers Union	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:43:00 - [296] Originally by: TomB We were also working on auto-promote feature but it's complicated and might get cut for Kali. ... Gang Bonuses & Server Performance Yes, it is supposed to improve server performance in fleet combat. Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders We have been considering the ability for Squadron Commanders to reassign their role of boosting the Squadron to another Squadrom Members. It's not trivial how ever and we are to close to release for this to happen now. Broadcast Role This is something we have been considering to counter the Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders; Squadron Commander could assign broadcast roles to a Squadron Member. It's much easier for us to do, but still can't promise that it will get done for Kali. A æCommanderÆ and a æSupport/LogisticsÆ role would fix the major drawbacks of the squadron system. A 2IC role for each position would allow for instant promotion and it would be good if the Support 2IC bonuses applied in an area if the 1IC wasn't active. This would have several benefits ie operating as 2 teams in separate areas, maintaining bonuses when moving between areas etc.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:46:00 - [297] Originally by: MOOstradamus Edited by: MOOstradamus on 07/11/2006 17:55:31 /me wonders what has happened to the Squadron Command skill on Sing .. Not only is it unavailable to buy but its missing from my Characte Sheet too EDIT: nevermind Squadron Command* has been renamed to Warfare Link Specialist * so the "Squadron Command" skill that people have trained up for warfare links, will not be the skill to enable the commanding of squads in Kali? What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:51:00 - [298] Originally by: FireFoxx80 so the "Squadron Command" skill that people have trained up for warfare links, will not be the skill to enable the commanding of squads in Kali? No. Had you actually read the dev blog, or even TomB's comments on the previous page, you'd know that the skill is the good ol' Leadership. Yes, it's a bit confusing, but (as TomB noted on the previous fricking page), they can't rename it right now for technical/resource reasons.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:57:00 - [299] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: FireFoxx80 so the "Squadron Command" skill that people have trained up for warfare links, will not be the skill to enable the commanding of squads in Kali? No. Had you actually read the dev blog, or even TomB's comments on the previous page, you'd know that the skill is the good ol' Leadership. Yes, it's a bit confusing, but (as TomB noted on the previous fricking page), they can't rename it right now for technical/resource reasons. My bad. The hierarchy thing is a little mushy. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.08 10:00:00 - [300] Originally by: FireFoxx80 My bad. The hierarchy thing is a little mushy. Agreed.
Transit One	Posted - 2006.11.08 10:08:00 - [301] Edited by: Transit One on 08/11/2006 10:11:13 Wow. I put 5 m SP into leadership, to find out that I can no longer give my bonuses to the whole gang, just the subset I command. Would have been better off having 2 chars do 2.5m. Looks like these changes mean gang skills are LESS useful to specialise in, but more essential for more people to have. FORGET RELEASING KALI. until you have this FIXED. Leave gangs as they are unless you can get all this working. ATM it's hard enough organising gangs with one person issuing the invites, let alone it having to be a specific person if you want the bonses to keep working. By all means, play with this crap. But let more people give invites, and make the bonuses independently work for the whole fleet (even if each section has to be 'active')
Dunpeal Hunter Momentum.	Posted - 2006.11.08 10:49:00 - [302] WTF WTF WTF WTF THIS IS GREAT
Eewec Ourbyni Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.08 11:39:00 - [303] So, the mission, should anyone who wants to run a gang or not wishes to accept it, is just what is the best way to load out a maximum of 3 characters so that the 9 folks who benefit from those 3 can get the best bonus' possible for a good fleet op. Rememberering that each group of 9 currently needs to have a medic so they can actively look for someone to heal rather than just relying on someone calling out in time. So, what should a Fleet Commander have in ships/skills/mods/implants to best support all of the 255 folks under them. Ditto for the Wing Commander for the 50 folks under them, and ditto again for the Gang Commander for the 9 folks under them. EDIT: umm sorry that was the mathmatician in me getting it wrong, commanders don't get a bonus from other commanders. So it's the 9 folks under Gang Commander which I got right, but the Wing Commander only benefits the grunts in the gangs under them so that cuts it from 50 to 45 folks and the Fleet Commander only benefits the maximum of 225 grunts under them not the 30 commanders also under them if I've read the dev posts correctly. (Well they benefit themselves but not other commanders). So... how to load up those three tiers with skills/mods/implants/ships to best effect.... hmmmm.... and how badly is the overall effect a nerf compared to what we are used too? This is a sig... -- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio -- ... good, ain't it!
Galimiy Portret Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.08 11:39:00 - [304] Originally by: TomB Gang Bonuses & Server Performance Yes, it is supposed to improve server performance in fleet combat. Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders We have been considering the ability for Squadron Commanders to reassign their role of boosting the Squadron to another Squadrom Members. It's not trivial how ever and we are to close to release for this to happen now. Broadcast Role This is something we have been considering to counter the Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders; Squadron Commander could assign broadcast roles to a Squadron Member. It's much easier for us to do, but still can't promise that it will get done for Kali. Well, thank you very much for the reply. It shows that devs are discerning roughly the same set of problems as the player base does. (I mean, wtf, FC in a commandship on frontline primaried) Explanation is, as usual, the developement resource prioritisation which there are never enough of. Well, it should get better with time. Have you considered a customizable UI so that some of the workload could be lifted by the playerbase?
Tundaar Minmatar Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.08 11:42:00 - [305] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz If it is too difficult for you to code efficiently, then here's a simple solution: Just let the gang leader manually pick which player to be used as the "highest" gang bonus for each gang module. The commander knows who is the best, and if he doesn't, then oh well. Sometimes humans are the answer to your coding woes. Shamis[/quote It seems in this thread that the primary point of contention is that the Command Position and the Logistics bonus are linked in one person. Question to Developers: Can there be two positions assignable within a Gang - Commander and Logistics Support? (could be one person) This would eliminate the majority of complaints registered here about wasted SP and too much of a gangs functionality being invested in one person. It would allow a commander to focus on leading and controlling a battle using the new functionality while the Gang bonus could come from the designated Logistics Officer.
Lojik FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.08 11:54:00 - [306] I'm glad IÆm Training as a Logistics specialist now Thnx Tomb you just made my life about 300% more efficient, Two Questions: The changes you proposed a few posts back about making logistics a bit easier, when do you think you would be looking at them closer? Also is there any chance of a mid range logistics ship in-between the cruisers and the carriers, maybe a BC or even a BS size logistics ship. Lojik
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.08 12:00:00 - [307] Edited by: James Duar on 08/11/2006 12:15:22 Originally by: Tundaar Originally by: Shamis Orzoz If it is too difficult for you to code efficiently, then here's a simple solution: Just let the gang leader manually pick which player to be used as the "highest" gang bonus for each gang module. The commander knows who is the best, and if he doesn't, then oh well. Sometimes humans are the answer to your coding woes. Shamis It seems in this thread that the primary point of contention is that the Command Position and the Logistics bonus are linked in one person. Question to Developers: Can there be two positions assignable within a Gang - Commander and Logistics Support? (could be one person) This would eliminate the majority of complaints registered here about wasted SP and too much of a gangs functionality being invested in one person. It would allow a commander to focus on leading and controlling a battle using the new functionality while the Gang bonus could come from the designated Logistics Officer. This makes infinitely more sense since it makes putting a gang together simpler. An FC starts it, calls out for logistics and chucks them into right tiers to support people. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.08 12:08:00 - [308] Originally by: TomB Gang Bonuses & Server Performance Yes, it is supposed to improve server performance in fleet combat. Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders We have been considering the ability for Squadron Commanders to reassign their role of boosting the Squadron to another Squadrom Members. It's not trivial how ever and we are to close to release for this to happen now. Broadcast Role This is something we have been considering to counter the Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders; Squadron Commander could assign broadcast roles to a Squadron Member. It's much easier for us to do, but still can't promise that it will get done for Kali. hope it makes out with first release. **** need to make a new sig...
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 12:27:00 - [309] Originally by: TomB Gang Bonuses & Bad Commanders We have been considering the ability for Squadron Commanders to reassign their role of boosting the Squadron to another Squadrom Members. It's not trivial how ever and we are to close to release for this to happen now. So only at a squadron level then? I feel cheated quite frankly, the whole gang assist line has been changed in actual gameplay use by a very large margin from what I originally trained. What your saying is we might be allowed to boost 10 people without taking a front line command role but anymore than that and you definitely have to be there at the front? Command Ships aren't actually that well suited to being on the front lines in any reasonable sized conflict, especially modern fleet battles which can take place from 150km upwards. Now they are going to have zero survivability because not only can you knockout the gang assist modules but you can knock out the command chain at the same time. I can understand the need to reduce lag in larger scale engagements but why do you feel the need to try and shoe horn highly specialised areas into roles which the ships are ill equipped? And why are you punishing the people making these massive skill point commitments by completely moving the goal posts on their functionality? Can CCP at least admit they've not really thought this through properly? The logistics is further proof of this, new broadcasts to aid the use of logistics modules but you still don't have any concrete plans to go hand in hand with them. Net result is that logistics modules are still utterly useless on the front line of any reasonable sized engagement.
Solarienne Caldari Steel Frontier Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 12:37:00 - [310] Loving the Blog and the changes, it pretty much matches what my corp has been anticipating, and we are thrilled (high propoertion of charisma heavy FC characters ftw!). Looks like I will finally have a reason to fly my Eos, Info warfare is becoming useful with the ecm nerf as any edge is an edge using ECM ;), and the ability to lead huge gangs benefitting from uber gang skills, while actually hacving to protect the FC rather then just having him parade around in a HAC, is awesome. Great work, can;t wait to start having proper fleet battles. For all those whiners saying 'OMG I cannot make big gang waaaa!' remember you could if you are into complete blob warfare, create TWO fleets and just have them co-operating (unless, I hope, there is a mechanic stopping this). So don't worry, Goon warfare is not out of the question yet Gang bonusses relying on REAL fleet commanders rock! Solarienne out
Xurx Minmatar Flemish Industries	Posted - 2006.11.08 13:07:00 - [311] Quote: It nerfs carriers and command ships hard since it forces them to be commanders for the gang bonus's to apply but this doesn't work normally because well carriers sit in safe/pos away from battle and command useually do that same or are support killers since they do not have the ablity to work at the ranges that battles happen. That raises another question tho....why is a ship (carrier), able to do damage (assigning drones), and not be in any harm ?(sitting at a ss/pos)
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.08 13:08:00 - [312] Hmm on re-reading the blog it looks like you'll still be able to make gang assist boosts work from safespots within a system, but currently the cost appears to be the ability to actually lead i.e. warp gang around the place. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.08 13:28:00 - [313] Originally by: Xurx Quote: It nerfs carriers and command ships hard since it forces them to be commanders for the gang bonus's to apply but this doesn't work normally because well carriers sit in safe/pos away from battle and command useually do that same or are support killers since they do not have the ablity to work at the ranges that battles happen. That raises another question tho....why is a ship (carrier), able to do damage (assigning drones), and not be in any harm ?(sitting at a ss/pos) It's good to realize that scan probing is getting a huge boost in Kali. Safespots will be a lot less safe, finding big ships like a carrier will be ultrafast for a competent covops pilot (we're talking 20-30 seconds here). In the worst case, the carrier won't even have time to align for a jump to the next safespot before it gets a covops-led gang on top of it. POS will still work, of course.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.08 13:39:00 - [314] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Dunno, that sounds like real-life warfare to me. If the commanding officer is killed, there is a mad scramble to figure out who is next in line to command. Whose military were you in? --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Donna Darko	Posted - 2006.11.08 13:39:00 - [315] Do these new broadcast messages mean that we have to go through some weirdo hoops and loops like it's always the case with EVE's interface? For example, to choose "Warp to me": right-click your ship in space or the HUD move mouse to sub-menu "Pilot" move mouse to sub-menu "Broadcast" move mouse to sub-menu "Navigation" click on item "Warp to me" Or will it be something usable through keyboard shortcuts, a la Counter Strike/whatever? Stories.
marcouk2 Gallente Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.08 13:45:00 - [316] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Alex Harumichi Dunno, that sounds like real-life warfare to me. If the commanding officer is killed, there is a mad scramble to figure out who is next in line to command. Whose military were you in? dunno but must also be one where the CO sits on the frontline with a big banner saying 'I am the Commander'
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.08 13:55:00 - [317] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Alex Harumichi Dunno, that sounds like real-life warfare to me. If the commanding officer is killed, there is a mad scramble to figure out who is next in line to command. Whose military were you in? Well, I was thinking of an in-combat situation, where things are hectic and information flow is often... lacking. Sure, you have your chain of command, but if the commander is suddenly killed there will always be some delay before everyone figures out who is the highest-ranking officer still alive after the attack that took out the "FC". For a short while, the low-level command is on its own until the brass realigns itself. And a year in the Finnish military, if you want to know.
Garramon Gallente Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.11.08 14:14:00 - [318] I really cannot find this in any way not a GIGANTIC nerf to those that trained gang-boosting skills. Let's look at what we have trained (rough times): Leadership 5 - 5 days Information Warfare 5 - 10 days Information Warfare Specialist 5 - 28 days Squadron Command 5 - 32 days Cybernetics 5 - 14 days Battlecruiser 5 - 30 days Command Ships 5 - 38 days That is about 6 months of training just for the level 5 skills on top of what I already had. Now you are telling me that not only do I have to train 80 days more worth of skills for it to apply on the same scope as it currently does (to your whole group), that it will only work for those on grid with me and I won't even get the bonuses? Are you out of your frickin mind? For some reason the fact that ~50% of the people replying to the thread fail to read and understand the point of the OP is hilarious.
Imhotep Khem Total Mayhem.	Posted - 2006.11.08 14:30:00 - [319] When drones were nerfed, they were also boosted once you trained all the new skills. When missiles were nerfed, they were also boosted once you trained all the new skills. When gangs were nerfed, they were just nerfed. I like the new _system_ but I do not like the requirement to train skills to get back LESS than we have now. This change helps lag, but takes away from the players so CCP should be compensating us, not adding new skills to train... Training a skill just to use a 'feature' of the game (fleet heirachy) is kind of lame. I bet you did not introduce any VOIP skill. Beyond that. #1 Enemies should not know who the FC/WC/SC is, so this idea about the C being primary is a joke. If you are calling a tanked Claymore as primary, your going to be pounding for a while just to remove a few gang bonuses... #2 the Cmdr will likely be an "executive assistant" to the real Cmdr who is giving the real commands on Vent/TS. So the killing the F/W/S Cmdr is even more questionable. #3 The FC logs and the fleet is hosed? Thats no different than today. If the FC logs today, I reevaluate if I want to stick around and follow whoever the new commander is. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
MIstress Saki	Posted - 2006.11.08 15:08:00 - [320] The main problem is that there is no valid command ship at the moment. As may mention the current command ships are not designed to fight battles over how much? 50 km. This is crazy. In almost all fiction and in reality the Fleet commander sits on the biggest ship. And esp. in EVE with the ôinsta-popö this is more important. What EVE need is a Dreadnought like Command ship able to absorb huge amount of damage. A ship which can survive at the front line! The current command ships are in fleet battles nothing more than flying coffins that even cannot shot back. The new fleet command system might be very good and innovative but when there are no real command ships available, its point less. Proposal: Bring out a new capital command ship or boost the carriers. Also there must be other command ships for each ship class. A squadron of frigates which is lead by a BC?! I think this make no sense. BC leading cruisers are ok. Proposal: bring out a command ship (frigate of destroyer) for leading frigates. Maybe also for BS.
Jet Collins Dynamic Endeavors	Posted - 2006.11.08 15:11:00 - [321] Edited by: Jet Collins on 08/11/2006 15:12:37 Now these changes where made to cut down the lag in Fleet battles. The way to do this was to make it hard to have the large Fleets correct? IE less pilots less Lag? Or is it less bonuses less lag? The reson why I bring this up is to my other post about how I am not very happy with the changes. Anyway so with the new changes the only way to get all the gang bonuse that you can get in a gang curretnly is to be the bottom man of a very large Fleet. IE bottom person will get multilpe Gang bonuses from Fleet commander/wing Commander/Squadron commander. Now assume that each of those people are flying the 3 different racial Fleet command ships. Under new system the person at the bottom can get a total of 9 differnt bonuses. Fleet command 3 Wing Command his 3 + Fleet commanders 3 Squardon Commander 3 + 3 from wing 3 from Fleet. Now also in a gang like that there will most likly be many other people. Current system a gang could get all those bonuses from just 3 people. So how is this helping lag if you need a crap load of people just to get the bonuses you can get now with just 3 people and get more bonuses with just 4 people. Now its not so bad if you can set up a gang of just 3 people as long as those 3 have the skills, if One person be Fleet one be wing and than the last, which is the only person that is getting all bonuses. This new system seems to be promoting larger gangs, but at the same time making it very diffucult to fly a large gang because of skills. I think the Skills are great, the nerf to bonuse not so great and not seeing the point unless it is the bonuses causing lag and not the shear number of players in the gangs.
Zing Ashuwanik	Posted - 2006.11.08 15:16:00 - [322] Originally by: Zarch AlDain You do not see that a 3N problem is significently easier to deal with and scale than an n squared problem? They will have already saved a lot of work by not displaying everyone's health to everyone else. That is just a precursor to my saying: Allow gangmods to effect your squad, as well as the top-down arrangement that is in the current implementation. Then instead of a fleet of 200 making 200199 checks, you have a fleet of 200 making 1011 (10 members each checking their 9 squad mates [which includes their SC], their WC, and their FC) in each of the 20 squads. So 2220 checks. Still more than the 3N (600 in this case), but far far less than the existing 200*199 (~ 39k). [My apologies if this has already been said, read most of the thread and forgot the majority of it]
Vala Draaken Gallente Madhatters Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.08 15:54:00 - [323] Originally by: TomB ... but as I said the skeleton allows us to improve the gang mechanic easily so you will see it in future updates. Everyone, please try to remember that these changes are only a temporary stage between Kali patches, as TomB said. Hope that calms some of you down a little, Vala D.
Garia666 Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.08 16:02:00 - [324] ( refferring to the way gang bonusses work with evenmore extra skilz ) I thinks its very sad that DEVs make such changes without notifying before hand. Yeah put some more skillz in.. More skilz more Moneh .. Force people to be something they dont want to be but have to do because they have the skilz and equipment. You just push it to your members there troath .. ->My Vids<-
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.08 16:21:00 - [325] Originally by: Garia666 I thinks its very sad that DEVs make such changes without notifying before hand. Yeah put some more skillz in.. More skilz more Moneh .. Force people to be something they dont want to be but have to do because they have the skilz and equipment. You just push it to your members there troath .. What do you think this is, other than advance notification? Or did you mean that the players should get to decide how everything works? It's not a democracy. And it's "skills". No idea what "there troath" is, but it sounds nasty.
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.08 17:07:00 - [326] Erm, one question... Why does everyone keep saying the commander needs to be in the same grid? All I see in the dev blog is that he needs to be in the same SYSTEM, undocked, and not in a pod. That's the same as current gangs (except maybe for the pod/docked part - not sure about that). Zarch AlDain
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.08 17:11:00 - [327] Originally by: Zing Ashuwanik Originally by: Zarch AlDain You do not see that a 3N problem is significently easier to deal with and scale than an n squared problem? They will have already saved a lot of work by not displaying everyone's health to everyone else. That is just a precursor to my saying: Allow gangmods to effect your squad, as well as the top-down arrangement that is in the current implementation. Then instead of a fleet of 200 making 200199 checks, you have a fleet of 200 making 1011 (10 members each checking their 9 squad mates [which includes their SC], their WC, and their FC) in each of the 20 squads. So 2220 checks. Still more than the 3N (600 in this case), but far far less than the existing 200*199 (~ 39k). [My apologies if this has already been said, read most of the thread and forgot the majority of it] That seems like a pretty good suggestion actually. Each squad member could boost the other members of his squad - but to affect more than 10 people he would need to be a wing/fleet commander. It lets small gangs function how they currently do, it reduces the amount of comms, and it still gives some advantage for training the fleet commanders up as they can apply their bonus to more people. Zarch AlDain
Mordechai Grey Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2006.11.08 17:22:00 - [328] As a long time mechwarrior/battletech player, the first thing I realized looking at this, is that "Headhunting" is going to become a real risk for leaders now. Corporations are going to use battle recordings, scouts, spies and other intel gathering means to determine who is the FC, WC, ect for their enemy and if smart they are going to rip out the leadership asap to drop gang bonuses. From a game standpoint it makes sense, you would be able to use your sensors to determine the nexus of communication traffic and react accordingly. Now if only we could get improved point defense systems and have them interlinked through the command net. :)
Argonaught GR	Posted - 2006.11.08 17:25:00 - [329] Actualy, the gang bonus are very simple now. Nobody has to train spec skills, as it will not be that smart to be in a command ship -the only command ship- at the front line. Everybody should train the basic leadership skills as they may find themshelves in a leading position at any time, so it will be nice to give some bonus to the squad. Especialy if the squad leader shows up in a BC class, hes not going to survive the first engagement. Training the basic leadership is not that hard. Actualy it will be like it was before the introduction of the command ships and the gang assist modules. If you had spend time training skills especialy for that (as I did)... well, better luck next time. A forward step that leads back... Is this some kind of dance?
Mordechai Grey Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2006.11.08 17:37:00 - [330] Originally by: Argonaught GR Nobody has to train spec skills, as it will not be that smart to be in a command ship -the only command ship- at the front line. Survivability and these changes really make me think we'll see a T2 dedicated BS and/or Dread class command ship in the future. Or a hell of a lot of logistics keeping proximity to the FC. "I wish to have no Connection with any Ship that does not Sail fast for I intend to go in harm's way."-Captain John Paul Jones,
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.08 18:04:00 - [331] Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 08/11/2006 18:04:49 Odd question, maybe, but: Quote: Amarr Titan Skill Bonuses: 10% reduction in Capital Energy Turret capacitor use per level 5% bonus to Capital Energy Turret damage per level 7.5% bonus to gang membersÆ capacitor recharge rate per level 99% reduction in CPU need for Capital Jump Bridge Array 99% reduction in CPU need for Judgment 99% reduction in CPU need for Clone Vat Bay 99% reduction in CPU need for Warfare Link modules Can fit 1 additional Warfare Link module per level Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare Is that bonus affected by these changes? Or does it remain for the entire gang, as the description says. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Mr Ninjaface Minmatar Shurekin INC	Posted - 2006.11.08 18:08:00 - [332] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 08/11/2006 18:04:49 Odd question, maybe, but: Quote: Amarr Titan Skill Bonuses: 10% reduction in Capital Energy Turret capacitor use per level 5% bonus to Capital Energy Turret damage per level 7.5% bonus to gang membersÆ capacitor recharge rate per level 99% reduction in CPU need for Capital Jump Bridge Array 99% reduction in CPU need for Judgment 99% reduction in CPU need for Clone Vat Bay 99% reduction in CPU need for Warfare Link modules Can fit 1 additional Warfare Link module per level Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare Is that bonus affected by these changes? Or does it remain for the entire gang, as the description says. well gang mods are said to effect the entire gang but now they are limited hierarchical bonus of crap, you can expect the same for the titian
Ackuula	Posted - 2006.11.08 18:49:00 - [333] Multiple people have brought up the logistics/friendly fire issue. I only managed to read through 7 of the many pages available. My suggestion would be to treat friendlies like can theft. A quick simple are you sure box would be simple enough. That or make it impossible to fire on a gang member, unless some sort of dual or training hostility is activated. My other suggestion would be that all friendly ships have Friend or Foe transponders, so in other words, insta locks. It's no fun trying to wade through my drones and friendly's signature and my sensor bonuses which can take some time to get a lock in order to conduct repairs and the such. Speaking of repairs are we ever going to see remote hull repair fittings/drones?
Noriath	Posted - 2006.11.08 18:50:00 - [334] This is very cool, I especially dig the broadcast function, although I am still not convinced that remote systems will be fast enough to really have an impact in fleet combat...
SengH Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.11.08 19:17:00 - [335] Heres the main problem... for the fleet commander to convey his bonuses to the entire 256 people you need 1 Fleet Commander with Fleet Command 5 5 Wing Commanders with Wing Command 5 25 Squad Commanders with Leadership 5 to ALL BE IN THE SAME SYSTEM UNDOCKED AT THE SAME TIME otherwise you lose the bonus down that chain. ie. If the wing commander docks or gets podded out, everyone down the chain loses the bonus. This system just adds simple bureaucracy to gang skills, which is absurd. For a rank 14 skill it should apply to everyone below you regardless of whether the wing commanders have the requisite skills. ---------------------------------------- Back for a month cus Awu5 finished.....
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2006.11.08 19:33:00 - [336] Originally by: Vala Draaken Originally by: TomB ... but as I said the skeleton allows us to improve the gang mechanic easily so you will see it in future updates. Everyone, please try to remember that these changes are only a temporary stage between Kali patches, as TomB said. Hope that calms some of you down a little, Vala D. Temporary my shiny white Caldari butt; half the things in this game are "temporary" and have been that way since the game launched. Changes like this are permanent, CCP will drop further changes so that they can go fix something else. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Caleece Dackson	Posted - 2006.11.08 20:02:00 - [337] Originally by: SengH Heres the main problem... for the fleet commander to convey his bonuses to the entire 256 people you need 1 Fleet Commander with Fleet Command 5 5 Wing Commanders with Wing Command 5 25 Squad Commanders with Leadership 5 to ALL BE IN THE SAME SYSTEM UNDOCKED AT THE SAME TIME otherwise you lose the bonus down that chain. ie. If the wing commander docks or gets podded out, everyone down the chain loses the bonus. This system just adds simple bureaucracy to gang skills, which is absurd. For a rank 14 skill it should apply to everyone below you regardless of whether the wing commanders have the requisite skills. Yes this is somewhat true.. but you would hope that your WC's and SC's would have leadership skills of their own wich would take over in case the FC is killed.. Also if your WC is killed you'd hope your SC has at least one or more skills to share with their fighter group. Maybe not nessisarily a level V skill but at least train a couple hours to level 3 as a backup. The only part I'm unclear on. say you have a full fleet.. FC on down to 5 WC's and a full complement of SC's if say Wing commander "1" is killed.. are all the SC's under THAT paticular WC gonna loose their bonuses from the FC? Same goes if your SC gets popped.. do you loose bonuses from the top? (pretty much the same question but I figured I'd ask it twice) That would make WC's a more viable target. Who needs to cut off the head when you can cut out the heart.
SengH Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.11.08 20:04:00 - [338] from current testing the answer is yes.. however for squad leaders the leadership skill has problem sticking. ---------------------------------------- Back for a month cus Awu5 finished.....
Caleece Dackson	Posted - 2006.11.08 20:08:00 - [339] Originally by: Caleece Dackson Insert crap here I really need to delete that alt :P
CamelKnight III Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 22:01:00 - [340] TomB, can you please direct me to the person capable of moving my 2.78m skillpoints from Leadership to other skills? I've trained Leadership skills to assist my fighting brothers and sisters when I'm in a gang. I, however, have no intention of leading one. I'm not the leading type nor do I wish to be one. With this new (uncommunicated, hardly thought-over) change, you are FORCING me to do something I don't want to do, never wanted to do and never will want to do. And here I was thinking I could finally play a game the way I wanted it, with all the freedom to choose my own path and destiny. Should this change go through then I expect CCP to move the skillpoints from ppl who no longer wish them to be in Leadership, to other skillarea's. Besides the obvious and earlier pointed out flaws in your new system, this is not something I wished to train for if it's going this way and I expect a proper solution from your part.
Kylania Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.08 22:18:00 - [341] Originally by: CamelKnight III I've trained Leadership skills to assist my fighting brothers and sisters when I'm in a gang. Should this change go through then I expect CCP to move the skillpoints from ppl who no longer wish them to be in Leadership, to other skillarea's. With the new system assiting your fighting bothers and sisters is exactly what you can do as Squadron Commander. You don't even have to "lead" since you can have your leader take the Wing Commander slot above you. CCP won't move skillpoints because of this, Leadership is still used for other things not just this and your skills still function, you just need to learn them in the new way. It's up to you to adapt. As others have said, EVE always was and always will be about change. -- Lil Miner Newbie Skills Roadmap \| CCG Card Lookup
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 22:48:00 - [342] Originally by: Kylania Originally by: CamelKnight III I've trained Leadership skills to assist my fighting brothers and sisters when I'm in a gang. Should this change go through then I expect CCP to move the skillpoints from ppl who no longer wish them to be in Leadership, to other skillarea's. With the new system assiting your fighting bothers and sisters is exactly what you can do as Squadron Commander. You don't even have to "lead" since you can have your leader take the Wing Commander slot above you. CCP won't move skillpoints because of this, Leadership is still used for other things not just this and your skills still function, you just need to learn them in the new way. It's up to you to adapt. As others have said, EVE always was and always will be about change. Not to the point where you utterly change the function of a highly specialised and high skill point dependent path. This is moving the goalposts to the same extreme as the change about 6 months in from Gunnery skills being a willpower primary to a perception primary. It is fundamentally changing the whole gang assist (please note the emphasis here) line of skills into a role far above and beyond anything that could be expected when these modules were initially released. To use these gang assist modules now, we now to assume command at a reasonable level in ships that are either ill equipped to be on the front lines of decent sized engagements or are far to easy to pick out and kill. I can understand why the system needed changing in so far as combating lag, but this needs to be an assignable role from the highest ranking officer in the fleet. That way you can limit the number of people being checked for gang skills without forcing people to take command in ill designed ships and based on the fact they were training an assistance module. And no, being a Squadron Commander and affecting only 10 people is not good enough for the investment put in in many cases.
evistin Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.09 00:32:00 - [343] Edited by: evistin on 09/11/2006 00:35:19 The new system seems pretty good, but it feels more like an artificial cap versus actually improvements. Certainly breaking large groups into smaller chunks is good for management, but removing gang bonus I think was a bad move. I understand this was to encourage swapping to Fleets versus gangs, but you now force those who are able to lead to learn more skills and does that don't to be forced into a leadership role. You also have 1 way broadcasting it seems. Where the commander and certain players can announce to the whole fleet the situation, but it seems to lack a Commander-only Channel of communication. Certain information is not needed by the solider on the field but needs to be pass to the commander structure. Your feature sets focus heavily on reducing current problems of fleet engagement, and that's a big +, but however in its creation it has created a much large administrative overhead in the preparation and maintenance of these fleets. I have seen no feature that reduces the overhead of the new features you are installing. ----------- Management and Leadership
Cinnander Celestial Fleet	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:05:00 - [344] Edited by: Cinnander on 09/11/2006 02:15:09 Edited by: Cinnander on 09/11/2006 02:13:41 Edited for spelling. I'm really not liking some of this. It's all good, but for me the game breaker is the fact that ONLY those in leadership positions can give out bonii. There hasn't been a dev reply on this [properly] yet, so I'd like to ask. My position is such that I like to do "logistics" stuff - I like to sit there quietly (e.g. among the BS group in a fleet) and dish out bonii to my fellows, or provide support in other ways (point defence, repper, or whatever). So I've trained like 4 months of time into the Command ships (BC5, Information Warfare 5, IW Spec 4, Cyber 5, Leadership 5), and I'm pretty good with the modules (properly good once I get the implant in a couple of weeks). HOWEVER I'm an atrocious [fleet] commander - I probably couldn't lead a 5 ceptor gang successfully vs a noobship. So basically, I'm now more use to the gang in an Oneiros than in an Eos, unless I totally forsake the Eos' specialisation and use it as a gunship :\| Also what about carriers - being as they can assign fighters to smaller faster ships they don't have any reason to come to the front lines, however now that they HAVE to so that they can successfully apply gang bonii. Also, the carrier pilots have to be in leadership positions within the fleet to apply the bonii. They seemed to have got kicked while they were down, a little, as they currently have no 'onboard' offensive abilities unless they fit smartbombs, essentially making them a drifting billion ISK target if you want to get any leadership bonii from them :\| PLEASE I urge you to reconsider the way this works. I understand that for now there are technical restrictions, but once those are fixed this needs to be changed. Please at the very least allow member<->member bonuses across a squadron, or even better across a wing (including applying them to leaders thereof). Fix this, and the new system will be pretty **** good! (256 gang limit ftw) I know, I said 'bonii'.
Istaklain TribalWar Inc EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:19:00 - [345] Yay for more nerfs for the sake of weak hardware and poor coding. Also thanks for raising the price for my character. Gotta say I'm surprised this got nerfed before bookmarks though.
War Bear Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:25:00 - [346] One request if it hasn't already been mentioned. For any leadership position (fleet command, squadron etc) would it be possible to have a "show fleet\squad\etc" button so a leader can quickly see what ships he has in his fleet? For instance: right click fleet show composition up pops a small window saying: 8 Battleships 5 Hacs 2 Command 5 Cruisers There's always the invariable "whats everyone in" question over teamspeak\ventrillo. You might not know who has what load out perhaps but you can at least say "christ we're out gunned, time to switch up tactics". No matter where you go, there you are.
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:38:00 - [347] Edited by: James Duar on 09/11/2006 02:42:50 What's needed here is: support skills are completely separate roles at every level. leaders exist solely for calling targets and using warp gang to get around none of this requires any new skills to use. If this is done, then the supporters, while needing more of them, aren't shoehorned into some nominal leadership position and can safely focus on not getting caught in their SS's away from the main battle (which will be tougher thanks to new scanning). We don't add new skills for leadership or support, because support have trained extensively already and leading a gang, as a skill you have to have IRL, is not something which should thus have to be trained in game as well. This would fix 90% of the complaint against this sytem. EDIT: ALL mining related skills and bonuses should be changed back to work for gangs. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
Kelldrin	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:50:00 - [348] I'm thinking that Formations, when implemented, will fix the concern with regards to FC's CBC survivability. Otherwise, what exactly would a formation do, if not protect (in some way) weaker/more vulnerable ships?
Anti Protagonist Gallente Archron Dusyfe Industries	Posted - 2006.11.09 03:28:00 - [349] Edited by: Anti Protagonist on 09/11/2006 03:28:03 Originally by: Istaklain Gotta say I'm surprised this got nerfed before bookmarks though. Bookmarks are very nerfed. There just hasn't been a dev blog on it.
Maverick McDougel Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.09 03:40:00 - [350] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Apertotes will pilots be able to interact with gang mates that are on another squad? for example, if i am flying a logistic ship on squad #17, and a mate on squad #23 needs some help, will i be able to help him or will he die in a horrible way? at least, if i understood right, i wont be able to see his HP, so i will only be able to help if he sends a broadcast petition. am i correct? You might see: [Broadcast Window] A Mate > Need Armor Repair! You clickit You get option "Lock Target" You select it You activate your remote repairers He still dies I loot him omg this is the funniest thing i have read today. support BattleClinic buy gtc's from BattleClinic
Garia666 Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.09 07:09:00 - [351] Edited by: Garia666 on 09/11/2006 07:16:05 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Garia666 I thinks its very sad that DEVs make such changes without notifying before hand. Yeah put some more skillz in.. More skilz more Moneh .. Force people to be something they dont want to be but have to do because they have the skilz and equipment. You just push it to your members there troath .. What do you think this is, other than advance notification? Or did you mean that the players should get to decide how everything works? It's not a democracy. And it's "skills". No idea what "there troath" is, but it sounds nasty. true but if they told us which way they where going in the first place on this subject i wouldnt have trained for it. to mcuh time lost.. to much money spend on something you dont have any joy from. ->My Vids<-
eveplayer11	Posted - 2006.11.09 08:50:00 - [352] <3 CCP
Mindlles 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.09 09:36:00 - [353] Yeah awsome... NOt I see CCP are more and more intrested to assit guys that cant listen to command, So now they will even get alittle red button show how to look?.. And for that we need new skills. Abit stupid in my opion. Sure enough that u want to change stuff. But first try the game to work proprely. **** played this game almost since realse, and wasted most off my time shooting ppl. And u forget the most importen, get the servers to work proprely. Before u make it even more acceptble for all the numbnuts out there. And blobs.. So yeah for the no thinking players, yay for the alliance blobs, No for good pvp..
Sanzuro	Posted - 2006.11.09 10:54:00 - [354] IMO this makes impossible a use of gang warfare modules. so those changes are awfull... like fifth leg to dog
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:17:00 - [355] Edited by: Rafein on 09/11/2006 11:18:46 Originally by: Sanzuro IMO this makes impossible a use of gang warfare modules. so those changes are awfull... like fifth leg to dog Nah, you can use them, just have to be squad commander/wing commander/fleet commander. All the change does it change the skills under the leadership tab to skills that give bonuses to leading. Much like training skills under the gunnery tab gives bonuses to using guns, which I'm sure your probably going to come on and say that doesn't make sense either. As of now, they should remove the leadership tab, or simply rename it to the OMGFREEBONSES tab, cause that is simply what people use it for.
Tek'a Rain Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:24:00 - [356] warfare links and their training skills should have recieved their own category day one.. called.. oh.. LOGISTICS or something (with the current logistics skill renamed to Logistics Ships perhaps) that would have nipped this rambling mess in the bud. Warfare Links are Logistics, Not Leadership! same as artillary spotters and loader are not commanders of an army, and commanders dont run the mess hall or fix the trucks. and please, PLEASE dont call it a temporary measure. how many other "temporary measures" are still live, right now? the Only improvment i see in this system is the change of how much space gang info takes up, and changes in its update. thats it. and those "saving" are buried under a huge extra panel of overview and information flood.
Pah Triac Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:26:00 - [357] i just see that there will be 31 Fleet command ships active iff the whole of the fleet likes to have the full bonus applied with a maximum of 3x3 maxxed out bonuses and 3 bonusses on the boss that are not maxxed out with ship/mindlink bonus Your local friendly Ammatar * People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true. *
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:34:00 - [358] Originally by: Pah Triac i just see that there will be 31 Fleet command ships active iff the whole of the fleet likes to have the full bonus applied with a maximum of 3x3 maxxed out bonuses and 3 bonusses on the boss that are not maxxed out with ship/mindlink bonus Correct, but at the squadron stage, there you really only give bonuses to 10 people, so it's kinda pointless to bring a Command ship at the squadron level. I can see tier 2 BC's used here, just for one extra leadership module. Which still gives you 7 gang modules, out of a possible 15. Which is fine. Like fittings, there shoud be choices, not entire gangs getitng every bonus
Apertotes Nuevos Horizontes O X I D E	Posted - 2006.11.09 12:13:00 - [359] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Mr Ninjaface TomB you added all the board cast stuff etc (i need cap armor/shield) The current targeting system makes cap transfers sheild transfers hard during battle if you have say a cap transfer on your apoc but you also have 7 turrets. You then have to lock you friend and cap transfer him then in the heat of the battle remember not to start shooting the crap out of him because hes locked. Can we have a sperate locking system for gang mates on that you cant activate hostile modules on unless you specify that you want to do so or something. We want logistic modules to be easier in use, there are a couple of ideas: - Targeting gang members requires 0 seconds. - Logistic modules ain't target modules, they get a curser when left-clicked and instantly activated when a target has been selected. - Something else But can't promise anything for Kali. i know it's been proposed before on the suggestions forum, but don't know if it arrived to your ears (or any significant ear...), but why don't you use the gang chat channel as an interactive tool, so that we can use any module on any gang mate just by selecting him on the gang chat window? this way, logistic ships would get rid of 2 limitations: - targetting delay - maximum number of friendly targets that would hopely make logistic ships more useful. ps: yeah, i know that inside the mind of many of you has turned on a bright yellow light. with this feature, any FC could directly apply 8 rounds of EMP ammo onto any disobedient, lazy or suspect of spying gang member, causing an instant catharsis on the unfortunate soldier. DISCIPLINE, THAT'S WHAT'S NEEDED ON GANGS!!!!!!
grizouh Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.09 18:26:00 - [360] for the nerf bat of gangassist skills i want a free respecc it is not only that i spent a huge time for training what i already have and which does not support myself at all - i also now have to waste even more time that the skills i trained so long for apply at all and will still have no benefit from it for myself. btw even if some of us supporters decide to act as a fleet commander: whom to choose if there are more than one type of gangassist available? one will be cut down to wingsize for sure. tomb, if you think this makes the leadership skills more attractive you are wrong, completely wrong. this is the first time i really do regret to ever have learned these skills... concerning the issue lag cose of calculations which is the highest skill (btw this prolly regards more the basic passive leadership skills as i rarely see 2 commandships with the same modules in a fleet): what shamis said, define it per role who is in charge for the boni
ChronoLynx Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2006.11.09 18:55:00 - [361] <sarcasm> Yippie! Gang skills are now completly useless! Woot! </sarcasm> <rant> I trained 2 months of leadership skills to have them turned completly inert? Arg... I love the new gang system but I hate the fact that leadership skills will no longer take effect unless you are a FC, WC, or SC... just lame... and I am sure more people have trained many more months then I and waisted time in the leadership skills far longer then I... most of them may never be allowed to be the FC WC or SC... </rant> <rabble> RabbleRabbleRabbleRabbleRabbleRabbleRabbleRabble... (continue rabbling... till CCP ends rabble with right tag) Elitest Carebear with Fangs and Claws
Pah Triac Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.11.09 19:00:00 - [362] Edited by: Pah Triac on 09/11/2006 19:01:12 Originally by: Rafein Originally by: Pah Triac i just see that there will be 31 Fleet command ships active iff the whole of the fleet likes to have the full bonus applied with a maximum of 3x3 maxxed out bonuses and 3 bonusses on the boss that are not maxxed out with ship/mindlink bonus Correct, but at the squadron stage, there you really only give bonuses to 10 people, so it's kinda pointless to bring a Command ship at the squadron level. I can see tier 2 BC's used here, just for one extra leadership module. Which still gives you 7 gang modules, out of a possible 15. Which is fine. Like fittings, there shoud be choices, not entire gangs getitng every bonus dunno how or what but i did not see any command module bonus on those ships on the test server, so unknown iff they will apear with such stuff. its just too bad that there will be no member in the fleet that will receive 4x maxxed out bonusses. Your local friendly Ammatar * People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true. *
Treelox Amarr Solar Storm Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.09 19:14:00 - [363] Edited by: Treelox on 09/11/2006 19:17:47 We might aswell stop posting our outrage with the new gang bonuses system, we already got TomB's answer to changing it to something else. Originally by: TomB No. Besides we havent seen gold bars here in 2 days, so I am guessing once again they dont care and are just going to continue on as they will. Implementing that they acknowledge as a bandaid that they will fix sometime later. We all know how well they come back and fix things....... So either TomB is off enjoying fanfest and HOPEFULLY being cornered by other players expressing their outrage, or we are all getting the shaft. Now bend over and get ready to take it like a man, im betting there is some more great stuff coming down the pipe. NOT!!! P.S. Can i now have a dev or GM switch out 5 or 6 of my base CHA points for something useful that I will use, say like INT or MEM. -- Signature edited - this is your last warning - Jacques
xenorx 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.09 19:15:00 - [364] Well first of all I am so glad I didnt waste time on gang skills. They are about to become as useful as laser skills. Overall,I do like the structure of the fleet but I am really worried about the UI. As it stands now we are cluttered to hell and back with all the chat windows, overview, drones ect over our screen. Pretty soon we will not be about to actually see the space around us at all. I guess what Im saying is that it is going to become total sensory overloaded with to much information. No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Mordechai Grey Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:37:00 - [365] Originally by: xenorx Pretty soon we will not be about to actually see the space around us at all. I guess what Im saying is that it is going to become total sensory overloaded with to much information. It's kinda like how they had to retrain the propjocks and early jet pilots when they switched to computerized heads up displays. The old timers were so used to visually scanning for targets they neglected the radar screen. Sure it was more efficient to use the electronics, but push button warfare loses mystique points to eyes on the bogey dogfighting. "I wish to have no Connection with any Ship that does not Sail fast for I intend to go in harm's way."-Captain John Paul Jones,
Slash Harnet Minmatar Industrial Services INC	Posted - 2006.11.09 23:30:00 - [366] This is a great starting point and I'm sure it will get fleshed out and refined with the 'other' kali's. My question, if it hasn't been asked, is there a way to tell who the leader is from the outside looking in?
Eriv Kendri Caldari Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.11.09 23:39:00 - [367] Boohoo - you cant easily park your afk command ship at a sspot now and run your 6 gang mods with impunity. How bizzare of CCP to want leadership skills and leadership modules to actually be associated with the leaders. -------
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.10 00:04:00 - [368] Originally by: Eriv Kendri Boohoo - you cant easily park your afk command ship at a sspot now and run your 6 gang mods with impunity. How bizzare of CCP to want leadership skills and leadership modules to actually be associated with the leaders. Ok, first of all, yes you can and this is almost exactly what will happen. You just can't properly have someone else lead the actual gang since all the leadership abilities get tied up with boosting skills. Second of all - new scanning. My god new scanning. SS gang boosting should get harder anyway with new scanning and actually serve to reduce the size of fleet battles since you need to go hunt down those boosting ships. Third of all: in what EVE have you been playing where any ship that does something useful for the entire squad is not going to be called primary and die within seconds? Hell, with the new abilities, conceivably it'll be really easy to guarantee everyone knows which ship to call primary. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
ChronoLynx Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2006.11.10 06:14:00 - [369] rabblerabble Elitest Carebear with Fangs and Claws
Mindlles 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.10 07:46:00 - [370] After cool downed abit i make a new post. Eve is a hard pvp game, why why always make it easyer?. The easyer it get, the more blobbish it will be. As atm the diffrent between a disiplined fleet with guys know who to look and how to act in the field. Is the diffrent between win and loss. If u even have the game show u wich once to lock it makes it to easy :/ I do think u want to make eve abit to easy, Offcurse this is not the only thing. But defently something that did it for me to feel omg,, why bother with this game.. As with this new change it doesnt matther if ur fleet is a big and good pvp force that know how to act. Or a big bunch off carebears that have just tryed to blob up to max to fight u. As for today, u can blob up if u like, But if the servers can handle the lagg. Alot smaller force can destroy the fleet becouse they know what to do. And do we not want to keep it that way, or are we all supposed to be toghter in big blobs and not bother to learn to play this game good? What do u say about that tomb?
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.10 08:09:00 - [371] I don't see how what you're saying relates to the change. The change is going to make simple blobbing up really hard. The argument is that it's not actually making fleet fights better so much as just making them more complicated to run effectively. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
Mindlles 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.10 08:35:00 - [372] Originally by: James Duar I don't see how what you're saying relates to the change. The change is going to make simple blobbing up really hard. The argument is that it's not actually making fleet fights better so much as just making them more complicated to run effectively. Sry if my english is failing me this morning Basicly u get to see what the commander is locking, Wich will actully make it alot easyer to pvp, As we all know focuse fire is a very importen thing off fleet fighitng, While today manny ppl fail in doing this proprely. Wich means that the most disiplined pvpers win in manny occations. The rest off the changes are mostly intresting like things use to be. But the See what commander is locking is just another step to let eve play pvp for u. iN my opion..
Tete denoeud	Posted - 2006.11.10 14:47:00 - [373] The only problem I see is that you wont be able to do pvp and head a squad while being drunk because it looks a bit complicated to manage rofl.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.11.10 15:46:00 - [374] Well, these changes actually do not improve anything. There's still no real group support system. Logistics in the widest sense do not get any love. Actually most pilots with any SP in the gang support skills just get the middle finger. So a full group of 256 ships needs 32 pilots with a full set of leadership, command and logistics skills and as many gang assist modules as possible, just in case someone in the chain of command gets his ship popped, jumps or disconnects? BC are pretty easy to spot, their effective combat range is pretty low and they go boom quickly once they're identified as pilots in the line of command and located. I like the new scanning system. It works pretty good with the usual placement of spies within a fleet. Small gangs get the rough end of the big stick for various reasons. One of them is the inability of the bonus to work up the ladder of command. Another one is the loss of the group support effects of the skills and modules. All I can see is the addition of some goodies to a system that's been broken from the earliest design phase. Do you think that the ability to disable all/most of the ingame command tools of an entire fleet by popping a handful of ships is a good design decision? Yes, you do not need to remove all the commanders to disabled those tools. breaking the command line in a few positions is enough to remove it from the game - along with all/most of the gang support skill and module effects. Adding more stuff to the overview isn't a good move, even when it will show more gang members - and you know that already. The addition of the broadcast section doesn't fix the overview. The more time you spend on adding new goodies to broken game features, the less likely it is that you take them out and redo them as they deserve. And both the gang system and the overview need a complete redesign from scratch. Adding a boatload of skills to work around the inadequacies does you no favour in the long run. I see a nice boost to short range engagements in theory coming from this as half the new features are useless unless the commanders are in lock range of the targets. If the targets decide not to play along and keep at sniping range, the commanders can sit in BS and stop giving group bonus to anything so they actually can do their job. You're not desparately trying to design around basic game features that are missing in EVE? Adding racing stripes and XenonÖ headlights to a Citroen 2CVÖ doesn't fix its basic shortcomings. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Jet Collins Dynamic Endeavors	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:31:00 - [375] Edited by: Jet Collins on 10/11/2006 16:33:20 With the new system fleet battles will consist of 3 groups. Group 1 the main fleet doing all the fighting group 2 the gang leaders hiding at SS. group 3 a small Elite group searching SS's to find the leaders and take them out, because once those 3 are dead the Fleet will have a server lose of bonuse with no one else in the Fleet having leadership skills anymore and once they are dead any new leaders will be on the main battle field ready to die quickly And to answer someones qyestion as to weather it is know out side the gang who the leaders are.... Yes... they are the ones in command ships :).
Greg Stone	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:08:00 - [376] Originally by: Tachy Small gangs get the rough end of the big stick for various reasons. One of them is the inability of the bonus to work up the ladder of command. Why? a small gang of 10 can still get gang bonuses from the squad comander. A group of up to 20 will need 2 squad commanders and a wing commander, both of which will contribute to the sqaud members. Originally by: Tachy I see a nice boost to short range engagements in theory coming from this as half the new features are useless unless the commanders are in lock range of the targets. No, read TomB's blog again. The commander doesn't need to LOCK the target to designate it. He just needs to be able to see it on the grid and do some key combo (shift ctrl left click or something) to designate it - no locking required.
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:34:00 - [377] Lets fix this little shall we? Fleet Commander = Fleet Support Wing Commander = Wing Support Squad Commander = Squad Support ...and then like TomB mentioned make the command functions separate from the gang hierarchy. I cant really see many FC's being the ones aboard the command ships. However I feel this organisational element should be optional and nothing to do with any gang bonus. I have no SP invested in this but changing a system and the way a profession (that of gang bonus provider NOT fleet commander) works to such a huge degree is in my opinion wrong. Yes, the current gang system causes lag. No, the answer is not to force people into a new system by telling them without it their many months of training mean nothing and making them train further for the pleasure of having their profession nerfed. The new system is a great organisational tool, but the above issues will draw a lot of attention from that. On a more selfish note this severely sucks for mining foremen, in many of the same ways it messes things up for fleets, but with NO benefits. /me calls the Veldspaar primary /me needs cap.... oh wait, no, left the AB on again
Hauth	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:57:00 - [378] "The more time you spend on adding new goodies to broken game features, the less likely it is that you take them out and redo them as they deserve. And both the gang system and the overview need a complete redesign from scratch. Adding a boatload of skills to work around the inadequacies does you no favour in the long run." Truest thing said in this thread ... The amount of time spent on these changes is probably half of what's needed to redo the overview in it's entirely, and every day you spend slapping crap on top of crap just means you're less likely to admit it's crap.
Arondor GalacTECH Unlimited	Posted - 2006.11.10 19:22:00 - [379] I wonder how long before this thread gets "moved" and "cleaned" so that it can be read? No one is listening to the valid complaints, everthing will be fixed with Kali. Perhaps we all just nbeed to show up at E3 or something with signs... /me rabble
Yatars Sister	Posted - 2006.11.10 19:41:00 - [380] OK, someone PLEASE clear this up for me.... Does the commander HAVE to be within 500km of the fleet to provide the bonuses, or do the bonuses still work while he's at a safe spot. If you're forcing carriers to the front line with such pathetic cap/tanking abilities (they really do instapop) then I strongly disagree with this decision.
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.11.10 20:41:00 - [381] Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 10/11/2006 20:43:05 Love the changes. I would suggest a few things though. 1) have a role for command ships, and carriers. Maybe limit the squad size or number of squads per wing as less than the current unless the FC is in a Carrier (for example) and the Wing commanders in Command ships. Then you can have the maximum number of pilots in the fleet possible. Also, I would suggest that for "formations" a good first step is to have a offensive and defensive formation. Defensive can make it so certain ships cannot be targeted until other ships have been targeted first, and eliminated. If you target the "primary" but it is protected by the "defensive" formation (or escorts if you will) then the target that can be chosen first is automatically targeted first, then you can keep targeting the desired target getting through the pecking order until you reach the desired target. This keeps EW and Carriers alive longer so they can participate in fleet battles in the front line. And ships may recieve a tanking bonus, hp, shield regen, or armour rep. The Drawback here is ships recieve a penalty to damage dealt with all weapons, and have even the effectiveness of nosses and Energy neuts reduced by some %. You will also have the option of selecting "only target Battleships/Battlecruisers" or "Cruisers/Battlecruisers" or Frigs/Destroyers etc. You pick the ship types you want your targeting to go to, because 1 frig, 1 destroyer, 1 battleship may be able to be targeted first. you can also assign 1 squad to target frigs, 1 squad to target Cruisers, 1 for Battleships etc. for their pecking order. Then the Offensive fleet formation has it so you can target any ship you want at the start. Maybe only haveing 1 or 2 ships protected but to get to them based on the numbers is much easier than in a defensive formation. Maybe kill 1 BS then you can target the carrier etc. The fleet here will recieve a damage/range bonus, and a speed bonus, or perhaps even a resolution bonus, so offensive fleets have more range, damage, or locking speed, than a defensive fleet. The goal here is you have to strip away an important ships escorts to attack the desired targets, but a defensive fleet the primary ships have more escorts, and an offensive fleet was significantly less. So if a fleet has no capital ships they will probably want an offensive formation, while a fleet feilding a Mother ship would want a defensive formation. Just a thought!
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.11.10 20:47:00 - [382] You can even colour code the escorts so you know what escorts are for what defended ship. Then you can strip away escorts and expensive ships, EW ships, carriers, Motherships Titans etc. Can all be in battle and be protected in a way. Also have it so only a certain amount of escorts can be assigned to a certain ship type.. A BS (Scorpion) is given a certain amount of escort points, so if escorted you can say assign 4 frigs, or 2 cruisers, or 1 Battleship to escort it. A Carrier can have say 1 Squad as an escort, and a mother ship can have 3 squads, a Dreadnaught 2 squads. Now without overpowering capital ships you can have specilized ships in combat that arn't insta-popped making fleet combat that much more tactical.
Zagum Darkfin Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.10 22:19:00 - [383] Edited by: Zagum Darkfin on 10/11/2006 22:25:36 This will only work if there is no lag in large fleet battles. Otherwise, you are just ****ing the wind thinking we can do all this during a fight and deal with the lag at the same time.
DeltaH Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.11 04:03:00 - [384] This is worthless. Argument that this is needed to fix server performance is a lame excuse. -DeltaH ---
zykerx Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.11.11 09:51:00 - [385] stupid changes, as somone else sugested in this thread allrdy, if the lagg thinghy is a problem thne make it so the gangleader can choise who gives the gangbonus for the gang, voila problem solved, no more calculating to see who has the best gangskills as the gangleader does that part your current changes will yust make it so that alot people wasted millions of sp into those skills
franny Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.11.11 11:43:00 - [386] there was 1 comment I saw in here about giving (force) recons the ability to fit gang mods all I can say is yes please with the inability to fit cyno + cloak, and the seriously gimped mobility of BC's in cruiser/ceptor gangs... it would give us something that can keep up and help our gangs as for the gang system meh... break the bonus's from the controls(delegate either way), and it might not be so bad
pInEaPpLe MuFfInMaN	Posted - 2006.11.12 00:35:00 - [387] Wow, fantastic.
Del Narveux Obsidian Angels Enterprises	Posted - 2006.11.12 04:36:00 - [388] Edited by: Del Narveux on 12/11/2006 04:39:32 Overall the changes seem okay, but anyone in a squadron should be able to apply bonuses for that squadron (not the wing, fleet etc.) even if theyre not the squad commander. Period. Too many people have invested too much time in leaderships skills, a nerf like this will just ** tons of people off. Like someone said a few pages back, this basically re-nerfs the leadership/charisma tree for everyone but the 0.001% of players that are CEOs/directors/admirals of very large corps/alliances. edit: also, if I get this right to get gang bonuses you have to set up fleet, wing, and squad even if wing/squad arent being used? This seems like a huge pain in the ass for 3 or 4 buddies going out for a night on the town, how about streamlining it a bit for ez squad formation? _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by:** Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Tachy	Posted - 2006.11.12 09:53:00 - [389] Originally by: Greg Stone Originally by: Tachy Small gangs get the rough end of the big stick for various reasons. One of them is the inability of the bonus to work up the ladder of command. Why? a small gang of 10 can still get gang bonuses from the squad comander. A group of up to 20 will need 2 squad commanders and a wing commander, both of which will contribute to the sqaud members. Imagine a small group of BC, let's take 4 for exsample. Each pilot trained one of the support skills and fits the module that supports the group best from his available options. With the new system they need a few more skills, like all the skills up to FC - and 3 pilots wont get half the bonus. The training of those skills did not happen instantly. They did the training that will be mostly useless with the changed system. Originally by: Greg Stone Originally by: Tachy I see a nice boost to short range engagements in theory coming from this as half the new features are useless unless the commanders are in lock range of the targets. No, read TomB's blog again. The commander doesn't need to LOCK the target to designate it. He just needs to be able to see it on the grid and do some key combo (shift ctrl left click or something) to designate it - no locking required. Play around with the feature. Think what you want it to do and check how tagging currently works with ranges, lag, packet loss, overview stopping to update, ships outside the grid, in warp, activating warp, whatnot. The commander has one designated target with the new feature - I can't find an undesignate option anywhere and it is said that he can switch >the< target easily :-) . Pilots outside of lock range encounter some weird stuff. If you add some lag the feature is pretty useless because of the way the overview works - or doesn't. If you followed ccp's history of working on reported bugs found on the open test server, you'll know that they don't care or can't do a thing about them once the stuff hits SiSi. Bugs on SiSi normally make it to Tranquility and they normally wont be fixed within the next 6 months - if ever. [/quote=Mephysto] at "kali testing pt2: the bugs strike back. reported by Mephysto \| 2006.11.06 16:57:00" [...], and all bug reports are welcome (honest!). Go there, find some bugs and do as complete reports on them as possible. Then look how they enter Tranquility in the Kali1 patch unless they're good for duping or crashing server nodes. SiSi is mostly used for stress tests and end deployment tests, not for code or feature testing unless a special event takes place, ie. the POS/Outpost test some time ago that didn't lead to many fixed year-old features. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.11.12 13:56:00 - [390] Quote: -Health bars are now also just shown for specific part of the group, based on where you are in the gang. The main reason for this is to optimize the gang service performance as status on health wonÆt be send to hundred of gang mates. In detail: I think this will break many things, for example logistics not being able to see the health in the BS squad. Other solutions might have been better: a) do not update any health bars for anyone in the whole gang, unless he presses the "broadcast my health" button (so my health is only shown to everyone when I deem it an interesting information) or unless someone requests it from me (then send it only to him). Even in gangs of 10 the health bars are usually not an interesting information and cause lag when not needed. b) allow gang members to monitor others' health bars by enabling an option for it (right click gang member, select "monitor health"). So only those who can do something interesting with this information will bother to enable it. (OK, those who want to cause lag will have a new tool to do so, so perhaps limit this somehow - "too many members are already being monitored in your gang" etc.) The gang bonus mechanism could also be changed in a similar "on demand" way. Give gang members a simple option to choose one member who will boost them (right click on gang member - select "receive gang bonus" or something like that). Then you don't need complicated calculations for X gang members who might boost you at every tick, all you need to do is check whether the guy you chose is still alive / in system. Also, you can have multiple people with gang boosting skills who can be useful for the whole gang (each one to those who need him most).
Arain	Posted - 2006.11.13 01:42:00 - [391] This reminds me of changes made in EQ to benifit a elite few, at the cost of your more casual player. This was changed for the small number of players who regularly are involved in large fleet battles. That is what less then 10 percent of the game? But it is done at the cost of more average player who simply trained these skills so they could be of benifit to small gangs involved in things like complexes, mining, or small group ratting. All to benifit only those involved in large group battles. Once again it shows that the only players of importance to the Devs is those who only play the game for PvP.
ramylax	Posted - 2006.11.13 02:48:00 - [392] hm
R3dSh1ft Caldari FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.13 08:56:00 - [393] CCP: stop alienating your playerbase who train skills for one purpose only to have their mechanics changed completely. nuff said. ______________________________________
Garia666 Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.13 09:01:00 - [394] Originally by: DeltaH This is worthless. Argument that this is needed to fix server performance is a lame excuse. -DeltaH Amen.. ->My Vids<- CCP= More skilz more moneh!
arjun Viziam	Posted - 2006.11.13 10:48:00 - [395] the new fleet system is overly complicated imo but i guess one can adapt. select new squad leader in the middle of a fleetfight when gangmembers get wrecked left and right? suddenly i have 30 km less targeting range because the fc dropped? fleetcomanders burn out easily especially on long campaigns. they are most times happy if somebody else takes over for a while. that will be much more difficult now because only the guys with the best skills are the natural choice for fC/WC/SC. that means comandship 5 and a mindlink. so i dont see the rooky fleetcomanders emerging so easy now. very bad overall. linking the out of game ability to leed a fleet with the ingame skills is a bad and not thought out choice. 2 possible solutions come to mind: a) let the respective SC select the person which gives out the gang boni. if he doesnt, then he is the one himself. that would bring specialised supporters to the specialised squads. like scirmish warfare guy in the tackler squad or the information warfare guy in the ew squad. b)let the FC select 1 char in the fleet for each race so the game hasnt to check so many chars. that can be roles the fc can fill with the chars he chooses like slots. let the whoile gang profit from the boni of those chars. in both cases give the selected gang support gu the ability to choose his own replacement beforehand for the case he drops from the gang or looses ship. ill just mention m example. i have a maxed ew char. m other char is a trader for which i looked for other useful skills for the corp/alliance. so i let him max out information warfare with mindlink. that char would never be any use in the frontline (gunnery + drones together 30k skillpoints) he was alwas intended to sit at a pos to give out the boni from afar while the ew guy fights in the main battleship group. forcing the fc to be in a comandship in the middle of his battleships is disturbing. the comandships will die so often. did i mention lag? what will happen if the fc crashhes or his game freezes as happens so often today? who will take over in this chaotic situation?
Morgit Seebring Gallente Dark Knights Inc	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:55:00 - [396] Those of us who mine in a small gang of 2 - 4 players... how will all this affect us? Live long, be honourable and laugh often. Remember... it's a game!!
Striker IV Gallente Brother in Arms Corp	Posted - 2006.11.13 15:53:00 - [397] ok , done reading this thread ( took me ...+5 hrs) i copy and pasted some on a notepad of ideas i like. 3 things that jumped out at me christ , im gonna need a supercomputer. - this 2.53ghz dell is gonna melt with all that information on screen. - in all of those screenshots, the objects in space and selected item were CLOSED - you cannot fight a war like that. i lag for 5 seconds taking drones out of my bay on missions. kinda on the same thought is the ammount of information onscreen. In 1 screenshot , the person had +5 channels open. next up quick quote Quote: The amount of whining from people here who are shocked and dismayed that Leadership skills and Command ships suddenly will start applying to, you know, "leadership" and "command", is quite amusing. Need more popcorn. Cool In reply to this. these were pre-requisites simply because there were no other skills loaded ( since beta.. ahem) to give the proper amount of " time sink" for training gang assist modules. Gang assist modules are the natural progression up from logstics as i see it. helping 3-5 targetable people at a time -> Assisting many more With gang modules. IDC if i have to train another skill to lvl 5 to fully use the logistics i have/and will have Trained, but im dumb as a post in matters of actually commanding everyone, But dont make them 1 and the same as it seems we are headed that way. Tomb posted later he is hoping to augment the logistics targeting ( Bless you good start) Command and Gang assist, should be separated - by skills, or by assigning roles. 3 lastly costs and visability - As mentioned here a couple of times Commanders and people who are giving module based bonuses are going to be sitting in some very expensive setups. mindlinks, ship, modules, and clones. Wow. i estimate i have reserves for ......2 fights. ouch. I have always been a helper person ( rl tech/phone support ) in all the games i have played. save for the Medal of Honor series were i was a sniper god. I enjoy assisting, helping, repairing ,rearming, refueling, even shielding others who are smarter, faster , have better computers , better situational awareness gifts , and have more money for that Beautiful 30" dell Flatscreen It gives me great satisfaction to be recognized for what i do. Some people like seeing those bars go down. It like to see them go back up. Striker
Cethrie Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.14 04:51:00 - [398] Wow.. in a lot of ways this is just confusing.. and smacks a little of the time sink that is Capital ships. Just doesn't give you a greater playing experience. Please answer the following: If I'm a squad commander, and I have all five basic leadership skills to 5 (siege, skirmish, info, armor, leadership (this is being replaced I understand?), I used to apply the following bonuses. 10% lock time 10% armor 10% shields 10% lock range 10% speed Do these bonus's still apply to my squad? If I become a fleet commander do they apply to every one regardless of which squad/wing they are in? This change has a lot of holes in it. Here is one example. Fleet 1 * 5 T2 Sniper Rokhs Fleet 2 * 4 T2 Sniper Rokhs * 1 Vulture with 3 siege warfare command modules. They conviently assemble 200km's from each other for some Sniper Pew Pew. Bringing some sort of ammo cart with them. Problems that this change has introduced (in my opinion) for this scenario: * To be viable at that range the Vulture would need to have a setup that is, well, very strange. (3 Sensor Boosters II's and 3 Tracking Computer II's + spike may allow it to fire at 200kms). So the commandship clearly doesn't have the ability to support the ships its required to support. Imagine an absolution hanging with some T2 Megathrons. * There is a giant red target now painted on the side of the commandship (yes I understand in this contrived example the command ship is unlikely to die as the fire power of the Rokhs isn't great enough, please feel free to work out the required number of Battleships to break a well tanked vulture). With no way to protect the command ship by "hiding" it behind the Rokhs, removing the enemy commander will do immense damage and the "defenders" can't stop you (without radically changing the role of the Rokh). * The command modules in this case on the vulture, will not provide enough benefit to the Fleet 2 to actually make up for the loose of the firepower provided by the extra Battleship. (This is due IMHO to command modules being insanely underpowered).
franny Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.11.14 05:11:00 - [399] Originally by: Morgit Seebring Those of us who mine in a small gang of 2 - 4 players... how will all this affect us? not much, the person with the highest lvl of mining director/foreman just has to make a 'squad' as opposed to a gang
Saladin Minmatar V I R I I Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.11.14 14:23:00 - [400] I am confused, but I guess I need to check this out for myself. The way I understand it is that only one person in the fleet can be handing out bonuses. So if two people in an alliance trained up their skills or fitted mods to compliment each other (e.g. information and siege), then the fleet members would only receive bonuses from one person. In other words, the fleet should only have one person trained up in those skills. One thing I also wanted to add, while some battles last a long time, most are very quick encounters and I have serious doubts that people will try to fumble with the new broadcast system or enhancements in the heat of battle. ----
booh	Posted - 2006.11.14 20:11:00 - [401] If i got this correctly. 1. fleet, wing, squad commanders will have control over their group of people (like gang warping, regroup...) 2. bonuses will be assigned from fleet, wing, squad leaders only? what if the fleet has a titan, must he be the fleet commander to assign bonuses? this would be highly unpractical... cause if fleet commander have control over the whole group and hes leading fights, he can't do it in a titan/command ship.
Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.11.14 21:34:00 - [402] So squadron command V needs to be trained to get wing command (yay! - not!) The only thing about this is it will suck equally for everyone. The broadcast feature looks naff too. Who fiddles about with "omg I need shields" when you can shout it over comms? (Not that this is likely to happen anyway) I'm underwhelmed with the whole concept. More stupid timesinks just so a few friends can gang up. Once they do we can only get bonusses from one? Pfft.
Taizu Lilith Minmatar Counterglow Kancho Unlimited	Posted - 2006.11.14 21:44:00 - [403] I think the whole point is to put Command ships in harms way.. Which makes a lot of sense. It also makes sense for the command ship to be, well, the command ship. I also think that they didn't like having the whole fleet being boosted by a few ships hiding in some remote place.. so they limited the ammount of ships that can boost (to 3) and made?? them have to be in the same area. BTW, about formations, please make it like with ships from long ago.. if I move in close enough I can target the sweatness without destroying the escorts first (of course, this probably leaves me wide open). That sort of thing is the stuff that movies and books are made of. (I know formations are a bit farther in the future) Note that thanks to TS, the leaders don't actually have to be on the Command ships.. they just have to sub delegate if that is the case (Hey Joe, please select the 120km Apocalypse). This makes a lot of sense also, if you aren't at the controls.. then there is some delay between your commands and their application. A possible expansion would be to make Capital ships be able to boost from any location in the solar system. This would mean that you could keep your Titan/Mothership hidden, but still boost with it (while Command ships would have to be in that grid). This would provide added functionality to the Capital ships.
Kothar Zanpheria	Posted - 2006.11.15 01:45:00 - [404] I really like what is being added here for gangs, now squadrons, wings, fleets, very very good. However, I think it will take the addition of formations to really make this new capability really sing. I personally think that formations are mandatory. Anyway, I am really looking forward to this upgrade. Keep up the great work!
Silvatico Far Ranger	Posted - 2006.11.15 01:56:00 - [405] Originally by: Zothike I'm not sure to understand, does it mean that if I'm in a BC with gang modules, for the bonus to apply to all members I have to be the leader of the entity .. to give bonus to all the squadron? If I don't want to be a leader then I'm useless? Then GANG modules = being FC? Many prefer to be gang minions and will have their 'gang-supporting leadership SP' converted magically to 'wasted SP'. CCP folks seem like fair-minded people, so I must assume that they will offer a way for us to reallocate our now-wasted SP to the skills we would have trained in light of this dramatic change to game mechanics.

TomB	Posted - 2006.11.15 15:21:00 - [406] Originally by: Yatars Sister OK, someone PLEASE clear this up for me.... Does the commander HAVE to be within 500km of the fleet to provide the bonuses, or do the bonuses still work while he's at a safe spot. If you're forcing carriers to the front line with such pathetic cap/tanking abilities (they really do instapop) then I strongly disagree with this decision. Nothing will change with distance where bonuses can be applied from. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

Shira d'Radonis Amarr Minmatar United Freedom Front Electus Matari	Posted - 2006.11.15 16:42:00 - [407] I do like a lot of these features you have planned... but I can definitely see many of the problems people are mentioning. One thing that I think might help would be some kind of way that you could create a "staff" so to speak for commanders... basically, you would be placing people within each tier of the hierarchy that would manage gang bonuses and what might be deemed "administrative" tasks. This way, the overall commander can be the most competent person and not necessarily the one with the best Leadership skill points since, as has been explained, these two things are often not synonymous. From a gameplay perspective, it makes good sense to me, and from a realism/RP perspective it also makes sense... generals and admirals of armies and fleets obviously had lower-ranking officers that commanded individual units of troops and ships, but they also had around them a number of underlings who handled the technical interactions between commander and lower-level leaders. So such staff officers would not have command of a unit and would be considered part of the tier in which they are placed and not a part of any lower unit... so the Fleet Commander could have staff officers, Wing Commander could... maybe Squad Commander, but that might be excessive. Just a thought :) I think that whenever you create a new system, you have to provide a level of flexibility, and the current model seems rather rigid. I think adding some kind of staff officer position would be one way to add greater flexibility and resolve a lot of the issues I'm hearing from people in this thread. Gang bonuses granted by lower level Commanders (or staff were this to be implemented) should definitely only work DOWN. So a Squad Commander would only give bonuses to his own squad, a Wing Commander to his own wing and then the Fleet Commander to the fleet as a whole. Another possible idea is to have the gang bonuses differ depending on the command tier of its provider.. So, for example, a squad commander is in charge of relatively few ships, so the bonuses could be concentrated more providing more of a boost to the ships in his command while the Fleet Commander, having many many ships under him, might cause the effectiveness of the bonuses to be diluted... this way it does encourage fleet organizers to "leaven the bread" so to speak and distribute more people with leadership skills. Again, just a thought... I'd like to hear what people far more knowledgeable in PvP and fleet operations than myself think. Also, it might be good to have a simplified gang system for small gangs... maybe put a cap of 8-10 ships in such a gang which would work pretty much as they do now. Most of the examples I've heard so far pertain to huge fleets, so I'm not really sure whether the new system might be too complicated for small groups of a few friends doing missions together or something. Anyway, I just want to close by saying that I think you guys at CCP are doing a great job, and I'm looking forward to Kali how ever it turns out ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Akiman	Posted - 2006.11.15 17:43:00 - [408] Edited by: Akiman on 15/11/2006 17:44:24 thats more like it!!! tho lag is the 'primary target' here...with it click...wait...enter command...wait...
bluebandit Amarr Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:36:00 - [409] looks awesome :)
Tobiaz Spacerats	Posted - 2006.11.15 22:51:00 - [410] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 07/11/2006 20:56:27 Originally by: Oveur A number of reasons for this change. We can start with the performance issues, the current model where it's the "best in gang for that attribute" is very expensive. If it is too difficult for you to code efficiently, then here's a simple solution: Just let the gang leader manually pick which player to be used as the "highest" gang bonus for each gang module. The commander knows who is the best, and if he doesn't, then oh well. Sometimes humans are the answer to your coding woes. Shamis QFT Better interface Vivox gimmicks SUPPORT skills shafted Though many of those support skillpoints were trained on alts meant for ss boosting anyway i'm guessing. Same gameplay rubbish as many carriers are being played now IMHO. Still... sick big time for the peeps that trained it on their main but for support, not for leading. I think Shamis' idea of the commander selecting the person who's skills are being applied (perhaps not for the whole fleet but for each individual wing or squad instead), is WAAAAAAAAAY better then this vague bullcrap.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:06:00 - [411] Originally by: Tobiaz Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 07/11/2006 20:56:27 Originally by: Oveur A number of reasons for this change. We can start with the performance issues, the current model where it's the "best in gang for that attribute" is very expensive. If it is too difficult for you to code efficiently, then here's a simple solution: Just let the gang leader manually pick which player to be used as the "highest" gang bonus for each gang module. The commander knows who is the best, and if he doesn't, then oh well. Sometimes humans are the answer to your coding woes. Shamis QFT Better interface Vivox gimmicks SUPPORT skills shafted Though many of those support skillpoints were trained on alts meant for ss boosting anyway i'm guessing. Same gameplay rubbish as many carriers are being played now IMHO. Still... sick big time for the peeps that trained it on their main but for support, not for leading. I think Shamis' idea of the commander selecting the person who's skills are being applied (perhaps not for the whole fleet but for each individual wing or squad instead), is WAAAAAAAAAY better then this vague bullcrap. ... because saying "only those in command positions give gang boni" is such a vague statement.
Azure Skyclad Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:19:00 - [412] A system-wide tactical view meshing information from dispersed gangs, probes etc seems like a logical next step from this. Any thoughts? http://www.voodoorockers.co.uk/
Radioact1ve BIG R i s e	Posted - 2006.11.19 10:29:00 - [413] This fleet command structure is very cumbersome. A squad size of 5 is too small, especially if you cannot have eve form the squads automatically... Also, I wonder if you can make it desirable to bring gang assist ships close to the fight. Maybe the command ships bonus' should be only grid-wide, but in return their resistances improve by the number of ships in range. The current situation where commships generally hang out in a safespot while fleets clash is boring -and the new fleet structure will not have much impact without such a change.
Itoz Gallente Shiva	Posted - 2006.11.19 18:02:00 - [414] Now I didn't read the whole thread so it might have been brought up. But what about mining gang bonuses? Would you have to have a fleet gang?
Forino Ovoli	Posted - 2006.11.20 17:08:00 - [415] Originally by: Severa Crest Players who didnt want to lead should have thought twice before training leadership skills and command ships. What an arrogant response! Those people trained to those skills and ships in a system that explicitly allowed them to lend benefits to gangs without being a leader. Specific example. My young son plays and has chosen to pursue the leadership skills leading towards a command ship. He may have very little inclination or desire to actually lead a gang. However, in his own way - under the old system - he would have offered significant benefits to that gang. Another example, a small Corp assigned various roles to their members to specialize in different leadership skills. That way, when together as a gang, they all gain from each other. Under this new system, one of them must now spend an inordinate amount of time training up the skills he (or she) did not have. Whilst the others will be, in effect, useless waste of skill points when they are operating as a gang.
Maestro Ulv Phaze-9	Posted - 2006.11.20 17:42:00 - [416] Originally by: Forino Ovoli Originally by: Severa Crest Players who didnt want to lead should have thought twice before training leadership skills and command ships. What an arrogant response! Those people trained to those skills and ships in a system that explicitly allowed them to lend benefits to gangs without being a leader. Specific example. My young son plays and has chosen to pursue the leadership skills leading towards a command ship. He may have very little inclination or desire to actually lead a gang. However, in his own way - under the old system - he would have offered significant benefits to that gang. Another example, a small Corp assigned various roles to their members to specialize in different leadership skills. That way, when together as a gang, they all gain from each other. Under this new system, one of them must now spend an inordinate amount of time training up the skills he (or she) did not have. Whilst the others will be, in effect, useless waste of skill points when they are operating as a gang. QFT This is now the problem we have in our small corp, which 1 of the 4 goes for the full whack and leaves the rest with pointless skills. Especialy dificult with a multi racial corp of shield and armour tankers for example. As for Severa's comment, do you honestly think the rest of the players should avoid the wonders of the command ship incase they are asked to lead? I guess they can all go fly BS eh? Its probably the only comparable ship to a command ship in game for solo abilities and gang related tasks IMO. I'm not bored, I'm merely in the Queue.
Rumbaar Solitary Forsaken	Posted - 2006.11.21 00:07:00 - [417] Wow late to the party once again. I think the changes for larger fleets can be beneficial and micro management of large battles is a must (node crashes not withstanding, can a node handle 256 BS's in a system?) But the affect to the gang bonuses, or lack there-of, both sucks and blows!! What about a small corp who in a tight group of say 5-6 people when for individual gang specialization. Each one trained for one of the key gang bonuses. Now when they gang they all get the bonuses (is this game about team work, all for a common goal). Now in this new system they are screwed, only one bonus will apply and they've all wasted their gang/team mate bonus training. This change is a nerf for the majority of small corps or small group of gangers. Not happy. ___________________ Custom banner? Click above or EVEmail
Trey Pator	Posted - 2006.11.22 19:47:00 - [418] Why does this have to complicate things so much. Once again the server crashing mobs ruin another feature for the smaller corporations. This effectivily ruins the gang system, It adds needless complexity to small gang operations, and plain just doesnt make sense. Why does a fleet commander not get bonuses from thier officers? What about small gangs? Why is EVE becoming so "alliance" centric? What happened to the concept of a smaller corporation? What happened to the concept of gangs? I know, It has been replaced with the concept of the mob.
Lani'i	Posted - 2006.11.22 22:41:00 - [419] This makes no sense to me... I am just about to hit command ship abilities and now this comes out. I do not have a large corp to offer Fleet bonuses to, the intention of my command ship was to go with my friend (another command ship) share our bonuses and do things in a group of 2, now we cannot share the bonuses (essentially waisted our time training)I think this is completely ruining people who have spent the time to train command ships and their bonuses. It rewards all the PVP guys who only train up to fight, then the people who train gang bonuses are sent to hell. If I had known I would have trained my BS skills rather than waist a 90 day subscription. I will not be purchasing another subscription because of this. I think it is ridiculous and just waists the time of people who train command ships to play with a friend like I have myself. Obviously from reading this forum I am not alone. I do not agree with that, and I will not just purchase more time to "redesign" my character.
Yoshi Takeda Caldari YoshiEmoo	Posted - 2006.11.23 12:30:00 - [420] This System gets way too complex to oversee turn too much towards very large corps or alliances and leaves the small corps and gangs at the shallow end of the pond. Far more shallow than it is already. I think there is a lot to reconsider with this. And to repeat one of my fellow poster what is with the Mining Gang Skill ? Do Mining fleets have to exist next ? Or does it get dropped completely and become a whole waste of time other fellow miners and me put in that training ?
Leverton Caldari AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.03 02:39:00 - [421] Edited by: Leverton on 03/12/2006 02:47:56 Edited by: Leverton on 03/12/2006 02:46:04 So let me see if I have got this straight. If I have Leadership V and I have a gang bonus running and I'm the squad commander, my squad gets that bonus. However, if there is a Wing Commander or Fleet Commander, that Squad Bonus does not apply. If I have Wing Commander V, I can move to Wing Commander and give gang bonuses to everyone in my Wing, which then over-rides any gang bonuses given by Squad Commanders. However, if there is a Fleet Commander, my gang bonus is gone. If I have Fleet Commander V, my gang bonus applies to everyone in the gang no matter what other bonuses are running. Is this correct? -- The universe is governed by the aggressive use of force. Hows this for a little note! Oh, and YARRRRR!! - Petwraith I prefer the term RAWR - Xorus
Leverton Caldari AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.03 02:42:00 - [422] Edited by: Leverton on 03/12/2006 02:45:46 -- The universe is governed by the aggressive use of force. Hows this for a little note! Oh, and YARRRRR!! - Petwraith I prefer the term RAWR - Xorus
Mary CarryAlot	Posted - 2006.12.29 12:37:00 - [423] I love this enhancement but please please please can you move those new gang icons to the top of the overview - i like to have my gang twisty collapsed. Del
Rabiat Amarr Paradox v2.0 Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.01.06 16:21:00 - [424] After having read everything I could find in the dev's blogs and in the forums I still haven't figured out how the fleet system is working. There's a lot of questions that haven't been answered. Who give bonus to who - why or why don't they give bonus? What does the red/green light indicate - giving or receiving bonus? Does bonus from FC - WC - SC stack? So please TomB; Make a new updated blog on how the Fleet/bonus system is working! -= Rabiat =-

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