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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Fanny'Bandit
Covert Intelligence Agency Void..
0
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Posted - 2015.06.22 23:31:15 -
[271] - Quote
ok the changes to DDAs just made my domi ASOLUTELY garbege it was already subpar dps it is now 100 dps less then my drake thats kool
ok the fix should have been directed at ISHTARS only nerfing there ability to field sentrys period take away all there bonus to sentrys and make them a heavy drone platform as they should have been in the first place no sentry bs just HEAVYS and medium drones
the problem you guys are having and the reason you guys **** 80% of eve off every nerf you do is you do a broad nerf which already hurts bleeding ships like domis/myrmidon are hardly seen and now its gonna be worse cause there dps is **** and to get OK dps they will drop all there tank and be paper bags soooooo
heres away to attempt to fix the ishtar problem
1) turn ishtar into a heavy drone boat only that can only hold max 10 heavy drones instead of the current 15 2) remove all sentry ability FROM the ishtar no more passive and even put on it as a static CANNOT FIELD SENTRYS 3) vexor is a mini ishtar it should only be allowed to field medium drones as it is t1 cruiser 4) ADJUST the ishtars either slot layout or bonus to the ship so adjust them like so
gallente cruiser skill bonus per lvl 7.5% to heavy drone tracking and max velocity 10% to medium and heavy drone dmg and hitpoints (NO they should not be bonused to lights so they are not a jack of all trades)
heavy assault cruiser skill bonus per lvl 5000m bonus to medium and heavy drone control range (this bonus im not sure of due to already getting velocity and tracking above)
if you force it to be one thing or the other then change its slot layout(since gallente is suppose to be ARMOR based do this)
SLOT layout
4 high slots 4 or 3 mids and 7 lows
forceing it to become more of a armor ship or a paperthin shield ship
this would fix most of the problems with the broken ass ishtar but it would also stop your broad nerfs to stuff like the myrm which is bad already and dont need to be anyworse and the domi which is slowly becomeing the worst battleship in the game and it will stop the stupid broad nerfs soo plz dont broad nerf and nerf the ship that needs nerfed |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
95
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Posted - 2015.06.22 23:42:37 -
[272] - Quote
Fanny'Bandit wrote:a broad nerf which already hurts bleeding ships like domis/myrmidon are hardly seen and now its gonna be worse......
.... and the domi which is slowly becomeing the worst battleship in the game What...
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Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc. Lasers Are Magic
30
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Posted - 2015.06.22 23:42:58 -
[273] - Quote
The only issue I have with this particular change is the inconsistency in tactics. We've had a couple tweaks to the ishtar and sentry drones in recent patches, and suddenly we change to a full blown sledgehammer episode. I personally do not fly the ishtar very much so I don't have a lot invested in this particular change, but I do worry about a couple issues that this nerf brings up. First, the balance team seems to have given up on gradual tweaks here which is something that's a bit worrisome. I also always worry about changes that effect an entire weapon class, although in this case I do think that the DDA tweak here is within reason. I do however like the fact that the balance team is trying to be proactive and shake up the meta by force, after being previously unsuccessful.
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HaoSs Ragnarok
EVE-RO Fidelas Constans
0
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Posted - 2015.06.23 00:18:35 -
[274] - Quote
hm. Allot of nerfs in 1 go. Like the ishtar rebalance . but 40 powergreed seems a little to much. 20 should be a better number |
Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T
699
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Posted - 2015.06.23 00:33:32 -
[275] - Quote
battle Barviainen wrote:The DDA nerf might also be too broad as it wacks all the other drone boats into the ground
All of which are very strong as it is. |
God's Apples
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
612
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Posted - 2015.06.23 00:42:03 -
[276] - Quote
Viserion Pavarius wrote:Hey,
That DDA change not good imo. You are not nerfing the Ishtar specifically (what Needs to be done), you are nerfing every drone boat in the game.
That is exactly the point of the DDA nerf. How does nobody understand this?
Drones are too dominant. Thus, they are getting a slight nerf. How anyone can think the ishtar is the only OP drone boat in the game is beyond me.
"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
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Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
163
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Posted - 2015.06.23 01:15:28 -
[277] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes.
We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level. Will we be seeing something similar for the Hurricane? I find it odd that a Battlecruiser with double damage bonus, fit with 3 gyros does pretty pathetic damage in comparison with other Battlecruisers. It's almost feels like it only has one bonus. |
Julian Sandcastle
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.06.23 01:16:01 -
[278] - Quote
CCP: /me removes the Ishtar from the game.
Now you can feel happy that no one will fly the Ishtar anymore.
\o/ OP SUCCESS |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
163
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Posted - 2015.06.23 01:18:19 -
[279] - Quote
Torei Dutalis wrote:I also always worry about changes that effect an entire weapon class, although in this case I do think that the DDA tweak here is within reason.
As you stated, there's definitely good reason for the entire drone class to be nerfed: Drone boats do the most damage across all classes of ships. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
5141
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Posted - 2015.06.23 01:48:52 -
[280] - Quote
I love the Ishtar, but this is a sensible slap from the nerfbat that even I can accept is needed.
It's not a crushing blow, but it will weaken the ship.
On a sadder note - RIP 1100 DPS gank vexors :(. That DDA nerf hurts there.
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
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Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
277
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Posted - 2015.06.23 02:11:19 -
[281] - Quote
Mimiko Severovski wrote:So more nerfs to caps (supers/carriers). When is fatigue getting fixed btw? Hopefully never, cause it's not broken.
Jump fatigue doesn't affect your ability to get into subcap ships, or to actually take gates when you want to look for a fight. |
Serenit Adoulin
Sons-of-Liberty
35
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Posted - 2015.06.23 02:25:16 -
[282] - Quote
I see the reason behind this but i still don't like it.
Also I spend a very long time training for awsome drone skills and got to love my specialized drone ships.
And yes i know changes are necessary https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png
But also the 5 midslots were so amazing for armor RR brawlers :/
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
267
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Posted - 2015.06.23 02:40:25 -
[283] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes.
We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level.
Will the Ishtar be balanced after this? Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know!
Thank you. :) |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
165
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Posted - 2015.06.23 02:44:43 -
[284] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes.
We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level. Will this change also affect the Tempest Fleet Issue? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
38509
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Posted - 2015.06.23 02:45:25 -
[285] - Quote
Crazy Ishtar changes.
It might have high numbers of total damage done, but that's against structures. Not ship-ship pvp anymore.
Look at the top ships on zkillboard:
http://puu.sh/izesd/9e7d6d377b.jpg
The Ishtar has already progressively slid down and off the top 10 list over the last couple of months. Punishing it in this way is just nerfing it out of the game.
Ridiculous and totally not balancing. It's just whacking until you feel good about it and screw the players.
The power creep of the T3Ds is still well and truly evident, but instead of addressing that cancer meta, you continue to focus on something that isn't even a problem.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Lelob
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
198
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Posted - 2015.06.23 03:09:17 -
[286] - Quote
I actually kinda like the DDA nerf, although it sucks that this will hurt supers. I also feel like nerfing officer DDA's is totally unnecessary as the only ships that will realistically benefit from officer stuff will be supers or the odd vastly over-pimped subcap.
IDK that this will necessarily fix ishtars the way you want to with the whole midslot changes. Removing the sentry bonus or reducing it again would probably fix things without nerfing an entire form of fitting for the ishtar. I've never seen issues with 100mn ab ishtars, the real problem has always been a ship that goes almost 2k/s with a tiny sig and can fire 500+ dps from 70km aka sentries on a fast/small sigged ship. |
Lelob
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
198
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Posted - 2015.06.23 03:11:40 -
[287] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Crazy Ishtar changes. It might have high numbers of total damage done by the figures you have, but analysis by the data we can easily see suggests that if it is still doing lots of damage, that's against structures. Not ship-ship pvp anymore. Who cares if it is powerful against structures? Defensive fleets can come shoot those Ishtar fleets much more comfortably than they could before. Look at the top ships on zkillboard: http://puu.sh/izesd/9e7d6d377b.jpg The Ishtar has already progressively slid down and off the top 10 list over the last couple of months. Claiming it is the #1 pvp ship in the game when it isn't even on the top 10 list of ship killers is strange. Punishing it in this way is just nerfing it out of the game. Ridiculous and totally not balancing. It's just whacking until you feel good about it and screw the players. The power creep of the T3Ds is still well and truly evident, but instead of addressing that cancer meta, you continue to focus on something that isn't even a problem anymore because it's already been addressed.
Every major alliance in nullsec's GO-TO fleet doctrine is ishtars because they're so broken, and if they need heavy-hitters, its probably domi's. They need a nerf, although I'd much prefer it if CCP would just look at sentries as a whole rather than drone dps. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3330
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Posted - 2015.06.23 03:19:41 -
[288] - Quote
have you considered splitting the dps bonus into dps+rof bonus like all other damage mods do? I guess thats also the reason why the DDAs have those non integer dps boost values.
one of the reasons why ships like the worm are so silly in frig fights is because of the insane alpha. On paper they would project worse than an algos, but IF worm drones hit the frig is half dead.
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
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Inslander Wessette
Killers of Paranoid Souls Universal Paranoia Alliance
21
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Posted - 2015.06.23 03:24:26 -
[289] - Quote
Nice CCP Rise,
Suggested it long time . -1 mid and +1 low . yessssss . Thank you .
Hmm DDA changes was it really needed ? There will be some ppl crying with Ratting carriers. It shud be okaaaay i guess.
Tempest : Will the change be attributed to Tempest Navy as well ? Nice change i'd like to see it . |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
589
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Posted - 2015.06.23 03:27:52 -
[290] - Quote
Sentry drones are the problem, not drone boats - neither specific ones like the Ishtar nor all of them in general - nor the DDA.
Drone boat balance with heavy, medium and light drones is already pretty much in line with other ships & weapons. So, nerfing the DDA and the Ishtar isn't the right way to go about fixing the problem.
If you don't want to simply remove sentries from the game (which I think is really the right solution), then increase the bandwidth, so that only a maximum of 4 sentries can be fielded. This also makes heavies more viable (currently, there isn't much reason to use heavies rather than sentries). |
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Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems
361
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Posted - 2015.06.23 03:44:46 -
[291] - Quote
Wow, it only took you 5 years to admit that drones and Ishtars are broken.
Wait for it.....
Wait for it.....
I ******* TOLD YOU SO. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
38511
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Posted - 2015.06.23 03:48:36 -
[292] - Quote
Lelob wrote:Every major alliance in nullsec's GO-TO fleet doctrine is ishtars because they're so broken, and if they need heavy-hitters, its probably domi's. They need a nerf, although I'd much prefer it if CCP would just look at sentries as a whole rather than drone dps. A sentry bonus nerf would be perfect. Not the current changes.
While the Ishtar was king, the evidence over the last couple of releases suggests that isn't the case anymore; at least not in the sense that CCP identify it as the dominant pvp ship in the game. The killboard stats just don't support that conclusion anymore.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Desudes
Adversity. Northern Coalition.
441
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Posted - 2015.06.23 03:49:06 -
[293] - Quote
inb4 all the people complaining about ishtars die to the next FOTM cause they're bad at this game
Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
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Valkin Mordirc
1142
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Posted - 2015.06.23 03:59:41 -
[294] - Quote
The Ishtar changes seem nice. Though I am personally going to miss the 100mn shieldtar. However it probably best balance pass yet to take away the one mid and add the low. I don't about the rest. Personally keeping the change to speed would seem alright since most people have to armor tank the Ishtar after the pass, so they are going to be slower anyways. Unless I missed something.
As for the DDA's. I would say it might be useful. The GIla and VNI are very powerful compared to the rest of the cruisers. I would personally like to see the Faction DDA's to become more common after this pass. That way I'm not paying 400mil to get the old levels of DPS I could get. I should still pay more than the T2 version for sure. But Faction DDA's are still way expensive for 23.8 percent bonus they give now.
Also yay Tempest. Asides from the Phoon I haven't found a reason to fly a Mimmie BS yet. Thanks for that. ^.^
#DeleteTheWeak
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Musashibou Benkei
Combined Imperial Fleet Darwinism.
58
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Posted - 2015.06.23 04:15:55 -
[295] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Alexander McKeon wrote:Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.
For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.
Hello CCP Douchebag, it's been a while!
When one person tells you Ishtars are broken purely because of sentry drones, you shrug it off. When two people tell you Ishtars are broken purely because of sentry drones, you tell them you know what you're doing. When half of the EVE population tells you Ishtars are broken purely because of sentry drones, maybe you should re-consider your approach to addressing the issue.
The Ishtar's ability to use a battleship-class weapon is not the issue. The Ishtar's ability to use a battleship-class drone weapon which specialises in long-range firing while the ship itself remains fast and agile is the problem. Ships such as the dominix and armageddon need sentry drones as their version of long-range guns.
However, you've (CCP in general not you specifically) given the ishtar that same bonus to damage and, more importantly, tracking and optimal range. I agree 100% with what Alex wrote that the ishtar wouldn't be so damn broken if it were forced to use close range combat drones. You claim you don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size, but this is a lie and you know it. The guristas ships were changed to SPECIFICALLY cater for their respective drone sizes. The Eos has a bonus to heavy drone mwd speed and tracking but not a universal one.
You might want to do your own research of what drone ships have exactly what sort of drone bonuses. Simply taking away *all* bonuses relating to sentry drones from the ishtar would more than likely fix *most* of the issue people have with the ishtar. |
Stinkie Wizzleteats
Spartan Industries
0
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Posted - 2015.06.23 04:28:01 -
[296] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Alexander McKeon wrote:Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.
For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.
CCP Rise, here is an idea. For crusiers make their drone bandwidth 100 instead of 125. That way they get the damage nerf without removing the "flexibility" that you're are referring to. You then would not have to blanket nerf every drone ship over and over just to fix on class of ship using sentry drones almost exclusively. BC drone boats would still have there "ninch" of 125 drone bandwitth, then bss would also be different with their tank and 125 bandwidth
Edit: might still need to reduce the hull bonus to sentry tracking and control range on that Ishtar hull, that ship is to op |
Midori Tsu
Evolution Northern Coalition.
141
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Posted - 2015.06.23 04:58:37 -
[297] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:have you considered splitting the dps bonus into dps+rof bonus like all other damage mods do? I guess thats also the reason why the DDAs have those non integer dps boost values.
one of the reasons why ships like the worm are so silly in frig fights is because of the insane alpha. On paper they would project worse than an algos, but IF worm drones hit the frig is half dead - no time to rep against that.
due to ~legacy code~ you can't change the drone rof, only damage. |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
5
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Posted - 2015.06.23 05:00:02 -
[298] - Quote
Roy Henry wrote:Why not just remove sentry bonuses from the hull instead of nerfing sentries, drones, and ishtars themselves? How much collateral damage has been caused to all other drone and sentry ships trying to fix this issue when simply removing the overpowered bonuses from the ship would have removed the sentry Ishtar in the first place?
all drone boats are OP. (yeah. unpopular statement, I know). Why? Because (a) your ammo is for free. (b) you got the DPS *and* the range -- usually, you have either/or. (c) you're not using any highslots for your drones, giving you a full high rack PLUS another full weapon system on top of that. (d) you're bonussed for the whole range from small to X-Large targets, whereas turret or missile boats often only get bonusses for one size.
I know, I know ... there are counters. Rock - paper - scissors ; there's always counters. But if a certain kind of ship sees so much use there IS a problem. Sure, we could stop whining and all go fly droneboats but I just don't like them. I can appreciate that randomnub likes to field the same DPS as, say, my Rupture; apply this damage without tracking or range issues, hardly any counter save for smartbombs (no, not even ECM or neuts counter your droneboat) AND a still have a full highrack of neuts for free; but when somebody then decides to take it down a notch you Gallentean scrubs act as if you've been mugged?
You can have your drone carriers. I really mean that. But let's be honest here: the issue is not just the Ishtar. The Algos, the Tristan, the Vexor (navy), the Dominix, ... they all suffer from the same disease. Your battleship can effectively fight off frigates; okay. So, where's your downside? Hybrids AND drones, for p*wnage at any range? Come on.
YES, the Ishtar is supposed to be slow because the Minmatar are supposed to be fast. As it currently stands, these Gallenteans are almost outrunning the Minmatar, with superior DPS, superior Tank, superior capacitor AND superior powergrid -- even though they don't even have to use this PG to fit a weapon. Yes I fly Minmatar. I confess. But I fly Caldari and Amarr as well, and they're all pretty much in a sweet spot: range but no tracking ; tank but no speed ; always-hits-DPS but not a ton of it ... tradeoffs must be made. Either drop the tank, drop the speed or drop the DPS -- and CCP decided to drop speed.
Which is a good thing. Consider, on the plus side, you'll be more likely to get a fight out of your droneboat once they get reasonable. As it is, I simply don't engage them because I know I'll get the short end of the stick.
This release is looking better and better every post I see It's almost arousing :-) |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
5
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Posted - 2015.06.23 05:11:08 -
[299] - Quote
Unamed Vyvorant wrote:Rockstara wrote:fit any HAC to do damage at 70 km. It's tough to get decent dps on such ships at that range. Except for the ishtar, it is ~100% better in terms of damage than the next best option.
you don't need 5% tweaks, you need a big axe Any kind of cerberus HAML Cerb 600dps at 65km RLML Cerb 614dps at 102km HML Cerb 500dps at 152km without new missile modules, and 5%buff heavy missiles can you fit ishtar for that distance?
Yes. And it'll do more DPS to boot. |
God's Apples
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
616
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Posted - 2015.06.23 05:13:42 -
[300] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:This also makes heavies more viable (currently, there isn't much reason to use heavies rather than sentries).
Currently a flight of praetors does 200 more dps than a flight of bouncers, or a 40% dps increase. If you don't see the reason there I'm afraid you can't be helped.
"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
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