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Sticky:[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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CCP Rise C C P C C P Alliance 5118	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:29:37 - [1] - Quote One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes. First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE, we are going to make the following changes: -1 mid slot, +1 low slot Decrease in mass from 1,100,000 to 1060000 Decrease in max velocity from 185m/s to 175m/s Agility going from .52 to .565 Power grid lowered from 780 to 740 Overall these changes should put a lot of pressure on speed based, shield fits (especially those using over-sized afterburners), forcing a tougher choice between the speed you get with shields and the survivability you get with armor. Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows: Drone Damage Amplifier I - 15% (was 16%) Drone Damage Amplifier II - 20.5% (was 23%) Dread Guristas Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Sentient Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Unit D-34343's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 24.5% (was (26.5%) Unit F-435454's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.15% (was 27.15%) Unit P-343554's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.8% (was 27.8%) Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 26.5% (was 28.5%) And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes. We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level. Will the Ishtar be balanced after this? Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know! @ccp_rise

Thanatos Marathon Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 475	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:31:54 - [2] - Quote Mah DDAs! sadface
Ktersida Nyn'Amanyn Querschlaeger 11	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:33:52 - [3] - Quote First! :)
Wrik Hoover Hoover Inc. Pandemic Legion 113	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:35:19 - [4] - Quote not ok
To mare Advanced Technology 408	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:36:09 - [5] - Quote OMG some tempest love finally
Mimiko Severovski Zero Fun Allowed Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 19	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:37:01 - [6] - Quote So more nerfs to caps (supers/carriers). When is fatigue getting fixed btw?
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:37:06 - [7] - Quote Make the slowest HAC even slower. Great idea! BC-Speed is nice! Under 1300m/s in an armor fit with a mwd.
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 1866	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:38:16 - [8] - Quote Meh. I was expecting a removal of sentries bonuses from the Ishtar, just saying. You're going in the nice direction but you're just chipping away little bits here and there at the Ishtar without making substantial changes. A slower Ishtar isn't any less broken and is less fun to fly. And you are nerfing its damage in the process by penalizing every single ship in the class. Were they really all OP? Lets recap the Ishtar shall we: No fitting sink from guns Selectable range and damage Insane bonus to tracking AND optimal BS sized weapon Ability to detach source of damage from ship position. (!) Meaning you have to pick between going for its sentries and doing no kills, and not even damaging their DPS because they will just drop others, or going after the Ishtars and loose a lot of stuff in the process Insane sentry HPs, resistance to smartbombs, bombs, and prolonged fire. Not to mention the chore of having to target every sentry Increased server lag Easy-as-pie 10-man instant alpha Please, who designed this? Signature Tanking Best Tanking Exploration Frontier Inc [Ex-F] CEO - BRAVE - Eve-guides.fr
Roy Henry Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 6	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:38:44 - [9] - Quote Why not just remove sentry bonuses from the hull instead of nerfing sentries, drones, and ishtars themselves? How much collateral damage has been caused to all other drone and sentry ships trying to fix this issue when simply removing the overpowered bonuses from the ship would have removed the sentry Ishtar in the first place?
killerlman BURN EDEN Northern Coalition. 16	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:40:00 - [10] - Quote Not sure if that DDA nerf is needed.
big miker Rifterlings The WeHurt Initiative 329	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:40:09 - [11] - Quote Thank you CCP Rise! Very good changes. Ishtar change is going to heavily alter 0.0 fleets. AHAC style Ishtar isn't going to be as good as the shield version for sure. Tempest buff +1 Small tweak, but it's a good start. Edit: 950 dps turret Tempest sure, but it doesn't get any application or range bonuses Latest video: Ferocious 6.0 Nano battleships / maruaders
Servanda Liga Freier Terraner Northern Coalition. 8	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:40:10 - [12] - Quote Will the TFI get the same ROF bonus? if you only give it to the tempest TFI will be worse than the T1 version.
Suitonia Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 555	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:40:12 - [13] - Quote These are great changes, exactly what the game needs. Thank you CCP Rise. Drone based ships were doing better than close range turret DPS out to 60km, and this will help curtail that, also almost every single drone based ship in the game right now is very strong if not borderline overpowered, and I still think drones will be really competitive after these changes. Contributer to Eve is Easy: https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Airi Cho Dark-Rising 102	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:40:21 - [14] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: Make the slowest HAC even slower. Great idea! BC-Speed is nice! Under 1300m/s in an armor fit with a mwd. We all will be so sad to see ishtars less.
Jackie Fisher Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate 461	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:40:49 - [15] - Quote Problem: Ishtar Solution: Nerf everything! Just as well you guys didn't chose medicine as a career: Patient: I've got an ingrowing toenail Dr CCP : No problem, we'll just amputate both legs, hmm, better take the arms as well just to be safe. Not sure you really need two eyes either Fear God and Thread Nought
Mizhir Matari Exodus The Camel Empire 74440	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:42:27 - [16] - Quote Overall great changes, but be careful that you don't end up nerfing to speed of the ishtar too much. Also I like the DDA nerfs, it will bring most drone ships back in line. One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!

CCP Rise C C P C C P Alliance 5122	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:42:28 - [17] - Quote For now the TFI will not get the same bonus change. We'll see how this shakes out and evaluate after. @ccp_rise

Skyler Hawk Boars on Parade The Tuskers Co. 37	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:42:29 - [18] - Quote Quote: We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release If the battlecruiser rebalance has been delayed, will the points cost of BCs and Navy BCs for the Alliance Tournament be reverted to their original levels? (ok this slightly tangential to the topic of the OP)
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 56	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:42:58 - [19] - Quote Love the tempest buff. Ishtar needs to not be able to use battle ship weapons. that is its main issue unless you plan to let the vaga use battleship guns. for god sakes stop nerfing supers! come out with the capital changes and be done with it stop nickle and diming supers just cash the check.
Dez Affinity Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 649	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:43:59 - [20] - Quote You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results.
Bunka en Daire The Charlatans 0	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:44:02 - [21] - Quote Why u just dont delete drone boats from game??? Even better u can mix up vexor and ishtar in one ship, so no more efforts for nerfing. Or better why u just do not BUFF other ships, so u must nerf all drone boats, because of tiiiiit BLOBERS? So when some1 invest year in training drones, u just nerf them and u make that one year of training pointless... Bad thing with all this nerfing is beacuse u base all that on +200 mans fleet...so....do u think all eve players are part of CFC, PL, and other so called alliances who enjoy to blob 200 ishtars on one Maelstrom???
Mind Rape Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 21	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:44:12 - [22] - Quote don't make ships better, just make them worse = balancing a'la CCP gg
Suitonia Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 555	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:44:30 - [23] - Quote Jackie Fisher wrote: Problem: Ishtar Solution: Nerf everything! Just as well you guys didn't chose medicine as a career: Patient: I've got an ingrowing toenail Dr CCP : No problem, we'll just amputate both legs, hmm, better take the arms as well just to be safe. Not sure you really need two eyes either The vast majority of drone ships in the game are very strong, and will continue to be after these changes. Contributer to Eve is Easy: https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Nafensoriel KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 4	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:45:04 - [24] - Quote I'm trying to figure out the justification to even pretending drones are seen as a valid primary weapon system by ccp at the moment.. The type and method of changes recently depict that you intend drones to be secondary in nature.. so stop half a**ing it with omninerfs and make the design decision to do that. Either that or force sentries to be used on stationary hulls.

CCP Rise C C P C C P Alliance 5122	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:45:16 - [25] - Quote Dez Affinity wrote: You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. Whack an Ishtar. @ccp_rise

Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:46:06 - [26] - Quote Airi Cho wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: Make the slowest HAC even slower. Great idea! BC-Speed is nice! Under 1300m/s in an armor fit with a mwd. We all will be so sad to see ishtars less. Ok with shield ishtars. But does this make brawling an alternative? No. Everyone can just fly away.
Suitonia Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 555	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:46:11 - [27] - Quote Mind wrote: don't make ships better, just make them worse = balancing a'la CCP gg Because this causes power-creep, instead of balancing drones and the Ishtar, if you boost every single other thing, you then have even more balancing problems (very like to have a lot of overtuned/undertuned with the new buff numbers when you change so much stuff) then you have existing content like PVE getting easier due to more powerful player ships. Contributer to Eve is Easy: https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Suitonia Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 557	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:46:57 - [28] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: Airi Cho wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: Make the slowest HAC even slower. Great idea! BC-Speed is nice! Under 1300m/s in an armor fit with a mwd. We all will be so sad to see ishtars less. Ok with shield ishtars. But does this make brawling an alternative? No. Everyone can just fly away. The current power level of drone ships is one of the reason why the kite-meta is so prevalent Contributer to Eve is Easy: https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Lucas Quaan Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 95	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:47:30 - [29] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level. Still has the wrong slot layout, though.
Dez Affinity Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 649	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:47:44 - [30] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Dez Affinity wrote: You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. Whack an Ishtar. Remove drone tracking mods. Rebalance sentry drones independently. Problem fixed
Arla Sarain 512	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:48:07 - [31] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? The damage reduction is largely trivial in comparison to the random damage range. Won't even notice it.
Krista von Peyote Peaceful Industrial Realm 0	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:48:32 - [32] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes. First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE, we are going to make the following changes: -1 mid slot, +1 low slot Decrease in mass from 1,100,000 to 1060000 Decrease in max velocity from 185m/s to 175m/s Agility going from .52 to .565 Power grid lowered from 780 to 740 Overall these changes should put a lot of pressure on speed based, shield fits (especially those using over-sized afterburners), forcing a tougher choice between the speed you get with shields and the survivability you get with armor. Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows: Drone Damage Amplifier I - 15% (was 16%) Drone Damage Amplifier II - 20.5% (was 23%) Dread Guristas Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Sentient Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Unit D-34343's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 24.5% (was (26.5%) Unit F-435454's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.15% (was 27.15%) Unit P-343554's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.8% (was 27.8%) Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 26.5% (was 28.5%) And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes. We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level. Will the Ishtar be balanced after this? Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know! Those Ishtar changes are fairly big, napkin math tells me post-nerf ishtar will have 50 PG less than current with max skills (925 vs 975) while having more lowslots to fill. It still has far too much fitting, I think the rarely-used turret hardpoints should be removed completely or dropped to 1 and the fitting be adjusted accordingly. The loss of a mid won't completely kill shield ishtars in fleets but it will hurt them a lot which is good. They'll no longer be able to fit 2 LSEs + 2 resist mods which severely impacts their available buffer, however the extra low adds a lot of options while their superlative potential for damage mitigation with 100mn Afterburners is barely changed by the speed drop. Not sure about the ramifications for fleet armor Ishtars but those were never really in vogue like shield fits were, although extra low to play with is very strong. I think the extra low may make the Ishtar even stronger in a small gang or solo environment which is frankly worrying, and it will only help the ship remain the #1 PVE ship of choice. DDA changes are nice but they don't really change the major problems with drones (unparalleled application rather than sheer raw damage), just make the ships using them marginally less effective. I doubt this will unseat Tristans or Vexors as the #1 solo t1 ships. Tempest buff seems significant but higher paper DPS is fairly inconsequential considering the help it needs to apply it, but it's definitely a start down the road to relevance for battleships.
Suitonia Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 557	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:50:04 - [33] - Quote CCP Fozzie - 5:47PM : PVP damage per month leader per class: T1 Frigate - Tristan, Pirate Frigate - Worm, T1 Cruiser - Vexor, Navy Cruiser - VNI, Pirate Cruiser - Gila, T2 Cruiser - Ishtar, T1 Battleship - Dominix http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png Contributer to Eve is Easy: https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Cr Turist Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 56	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:50:10 - [34] - Quote and to not buff the TFI is dumb.
Alexander McKeon Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion 95	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:51:52 - [35] - Quote Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. Edit: for the sake of completeness regarding weapon size vs. hull size, I'll note that ABCs were specifically designed with design sacrifices (notably tank) in mind to compensate for their oversized guns, which i find a reasonable exception. Those hulls are balanced and have their uses, but do not distrort the meta to the point you're either flying Ishtars, or flying a fleet designed to counter Ishtars.
Bunka en Daire The Charlatans 0	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:52:25 - [36] - Quote I want relocating of all my drone SP's, i want to nerf my chars drone skills. Pls help me.
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 1866	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:52:32 - [37] - Quote Suitonia wrote: CCP Fozzie - 5:47PM : PVP damage per month leader per class: T1 Frigate - Tristan, Pirate Frigate - Worm, T1 Cruiser - Vexor, Navy Cruiser - VNI, Pirate Cruiser - Gila, T2 Cruiser - Ishtar, T1 Battleship - Dominix http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png This is sick Signature Tanking Best Tanking Exploration Frontier Inc [Ex-F] CEO - BRAVE - Eve-guides.fr
Skydott Burnin plasma ball 28	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:53:33 - [38] - Quote At this patch will you give drone asist ability to shoot in pvp in low sec ?
l0rd carlos TURN LEFT The Camel Empire 1234	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:53:47 - [39] - Quote Cr Turist wrote: and to not buff the TFI is dumb. See post #17 Looks like it will get a buff. Or what do you mean? German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com

CCP Rise C C P C C P Alliance 5128	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:58:41 - [40] - Quote Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. @ccp_rise

Dirk Morbho Mindstar Technology Get Off My Lawn 52	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:58:57 - [41] - Quote Came expecting removal of Sentries from Ishtars. Left empty-handed.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2015.06.22 15:59:05 - [42] - Quote Altrue wrote: Meh. I was expecting a removal of sentries bonuses from the Ishtar, just saying. You're going in the nice direction but you're just chipping away little bits here and there at the Ishtar without making substantial changes. A slower Ishtar isn't any less broken and is less fun to fly. And you are nerfing its damage in the process by penalizing every single ship in the class. Were they really all OP? First, off chipping away at a strong ship is great way to balance things. It does not provide immediate resolution to the problem but it is a better approach to balance then big sweeping changes that break a ship. Small changes have cumulative effects, and not over nerfing and thus crippling one of the most flown ships is a good way to keep customers happy. Yes drone boats are leaders in almost every category. A small nerf to them across the board is not unexpected, and I am a drone boat pilot. I will miss the DPS I am losing on my Worm, Gila, VNI, Rattlesnake, Dominix, and my Ishtar. But I was drawn to these ships for various reasons including they were very good dps ships with good survivability. Thankfully the Gurista ships caused me to also train missiles and those are now seeing a positive boost. Though for all practical purposes I won't be using the new missile mods on my Worm or Gila. So they take a net nerf, which for the power they had, is not game breaking. I'd rather keep all the power of the DDA and just have my Ishtar nerfed to satisfy the masses, but once the Ishtar is fixed, people will complain even more about the other drone boats that are PvE leaders and still very strong in PvP. This proactive DDA nerf helps bring all those ships down a small amount, and hopefully will be enough so spare them any other nerf.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 690	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:00:49 - [43] - Quote While you are at it, could you increase the missile damage bonus on the Rattlesnake by a tad so the offset isn't so bad please? Thank you! Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1433	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:01:57 - [44] - Quote Honestly, I'd let the slot change pan out a bit before nerfing DDA. I really think the slot change might be enough.
Jason Baros Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance 0	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:02:17 - [45] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Dez Affinity wrote: You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. Whack an Ishtar. + every other ship that equips DDA's FTFY But seriously if you want to nerf the Ishtars you need to do something about their capability of using sentries. Ishtars dropping heavies in a big fleet fight is not OP and is very easily to deal with. Ishtars dropping sentries means the ishtars just stay 100Km from their prey and destroy it as long as their sentries are withing range. Please stop balancing the game with a seldge hammer and start looking at what causes ships to be OP. The medium rail nerf hit not only tengus but EVERY single cruiser that uses hybrids.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:03:41 - [46] - Quote Dirk Morbho wrote: Came expecting removal of Sentries from Ishtars. Left empty-handed. You had very misguided hopes. Removal of Sentries from any drone ship removes that ships ability for ranged combat. I don't expect to see Sentries removed from any drone ship until a replacement to them is also introduced.
battle Barviainen KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:05:03 - [47] - Quote Removing the midslot will not make it realy that less used, you need to remove the sentry's from the ishtar and let it keep the midslot and let it keep the speed + pwg nerf
SFM Hobb3s Wrecking Shots Black Legion. 310	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:05:07 - [48] - Quote +1 Rise. -1 midslot is going to impact the dominant shield Ishtar significantly. I imagine the hamsters are also rejoicing.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 739	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:05:50 - [49] - Quote Xaxaxa. Ishtar still not fixed. Dirk Morbho wrote: Came expecting removal of Sentries from Ishtars. Left empty-handed. Yeah, it's nbd that even the Eagle can't reach those DPS levels at that kind of range. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
NinjaTurtle SniggWaffe WAFFLES. 92	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:06:24 - [50] - Quote just gunna take stabs at the ishtar till you figure it out huh lol even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time I do things. http://declarationsofwar.com
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2914	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:06:51 - [51] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: First of all, the Ishtar. -1 mid slot, +1 low slot This is something that some of us were suggesting from the first set of balance changes of the Ishtar. Glad to see if finally happened. +1 CCP Rise wrote: Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers Drone Damage Amplifier I - 15% (was 16%) Drone Damage Amplifier II - 20.5% (was 23%) Dread Guristas Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Sentient Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Unit D-34343's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 24.5% (was (26.5%) Unit F-435454's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.15% (was 27.15%) Unit P-343554's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.8% (was 27.8%) Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 26.5% (was 28.5%) Knee jerking reaction was rage, but I calmed down a little bit and looking at it, it is not that bad and drone ships are in a powerful position and this will not hurt them all too much so a reluctant +1 for this also. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Igor Nappi Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 124	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:07:10 - [52] - Quote I think the DDA nerf is way overdue. Better late than never, though. Furthermore, I think that links must be removed from the game.
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 1868	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:08:00 - [53] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. I don't think people are asking for Ishtars to be unable to use sentries. Most people are asking for the removal of sentries bonuses on them. You know, the +25% damage, AND the +25% hitpoints, AND the +25% tracking, AND the +25% optimal. They would still be able to use sentries, but their stats would be more in-line with their actual balanced state. Signature Tanking Best Tanking Exploration Frontier Inc [Ex-F] CEO - BRAVE - Eve-guides.fr
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 740	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:08:31 - [54] - Quote Bunka en Daire wrote: Why u just dont delete drone boats from game??? Even better u can mix up vexor and ishtar in one ship, so no more efforts for nerfing. Or better why u just do not BUFF other ships, so u must nerf all drone boats, because of tiiiiit BLOBERS? Calm down, dron user. DDAs were & still are OP, considering that the base drone attributes were already competitive prior to their introduction. Altrue wrote: CCP Rise wrote: This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. I don't think people are asking for Ishtars to be unable to use sentries. Most people are asking for the removal of sentries bonuses on them. You know, the +25% damage, AND the +25% hitpoints, AND the +25% tracking, AND the +25% optimal. They would still be able to use sentries, but their stats would be more in-line with their actual balanced state. Double dron bonuses everyday. On top of a battleship weapons system on a cruiser hull with t2 resists. Gobbi pls // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
l0rd carlos TURN LEFT The Camel Empire 1234	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:08:39 - [55] - Quote Jason Baros wrote: Please stop balancing the game with a seldge hammer and start looking at what causes ships to be OP. The medium rail nerf hit not only tengus but EVERY single cruiser that uses hybrids. The other rail ships where (or still are?) also super strong. A rail nerv was needed. Just as a drone nerv is needed. Not sure if DDA is the right way to do it, but it's something. Not just the Ishtar is the problem. German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com
Gorski Car 630	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:10:23 - [56] - Quote Another great round of changes. DDAS have been way too strong for a long time and drone ships tend to be the strongest in every single ship class. Tempest buff is good and you know I like it Rise Collect this post
Skydott Burnin plasma ball 28	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:11:01 - [57] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. Or you can make light/medium/large/CAPITAL sentry drones sizes. with equal stats and damage. (No siege sentry moros )
Canon Makanen Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 9	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:11:07 - [58] - Quote The DDA nerf is fair, but the slot change is not very desirable. Because now it is almost impossible to use shield tank, and this is also the same idea of Vexor Navy Issue(Only the drone bay different). You should just keep the slot location.
Gremk The Red Island Foundation Shadow Cartel 18	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:11:19 - [59] - Quote At first I was slightly against the DDA change but I think this is actually going to be a good change. I think you should consider giving the Ishtar a slight bonus to hybrids in some way to really turn it into a heavy brawler and just be done with sentries on the Ishtar. I think there should be some consideration as to how the DDA will indirectly impact supers though... I think it'll be a good change for all other drone boats though. The only thing I find frustrating about drone boats is how easy it is to wipe their DPS when using heavies/medium/lights. Lowering the DPS is understandable but don't forget the HUGE drawbacks of having a DPS platform that is 100% destructible.
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 1868	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:12:01 - [60] - Quote Beyond the obvious ENORMOUS Ishtar balance issues (ultimate ship for PvP AND PvE in most situations anyone?), the question of drone balance in general begs to be asked. I wish there was a counter as easy as firewalling for drones, because they are sure as hell getting out of hand atm. I'm sure you're communicating damage stats between devs, and Fozzie just announced that drone boats ships are top damage for Frigates AND Pirate Frigates AND Cruisers AND Navy Cruisers AND Heavy Assault Cruisers AND Battleships. At this stage refusing to do something substantial is not bad judgment, it is clearly turning a blind eye voluntarily. Signature Tanking Best Tanking Exploration Frontier Inc [Ex-F] CEO - BRAVE - Eve-guides.fr
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1182	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:12:54 - [61] - Quote some good changes, but i still think droneboats have a big slot advantage over ships needing turrets/hardpoints, so please consider reducing slots on all droneboats to -3 slots, guristas should also follow the - slots which they do not atm for some reason... Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 740	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:12:55 - [62] - Quote Suitonia wrote: CCP Fozzie - 5:47PM : PVP damage per month leader per class: T1 Frigate - Tristan, Pirate Frigate - Worm, T1 Cruiser - Vexor, Navy Cruiser - VNI, Pirate Cruiser - Gila, T2 Cruiser - Ishtar, T1 Battleship - Dominix http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png Drone Cruisers Online. See sig. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
battle Barviainen KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:13:19 - [63] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Bunka en Daire wrote: Why u just dont delete drone boats from game??? Even better u can mix up vexor and ishtar in one ship, so no more efforts for nerfing. Or better why u just do not BUFF other ships, so u must nerf all drone boats, because of tiiiiit BLOBERS? Calm down, dron user. DDAs were & still are OP, considering that the base drone attributes were already competitive prior to their introduction. Altrue wrote: CCP Rise wrote: This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. I don't think people are asking for Ishtars to be unable to use sentries. Most people are asking for the removal of sentries bonuses on them. You know, the +25% damage, AND the +25% hitpoints, AND the +25% tracking, AND the +25% optimal. They would still be able to use sentries, but their stats would be more in-line with their actual balanced state. Double dron bonuses everyday. On top of a battleship weapons system on a cruiser hull with t2 resists. Gobbi pls the DDA nerf is warranted yes, but the mid + lowslot is just plain stupid, remove the sentry's keep the speed + pwg nerf and it would pretty much kill it's constant fleet use. the mid slot removal will also kill it's ability to run complexes and other solo activty's
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2914	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:13:49 - [64] - Quote Canon Makanen wrote: Because now it is almost impossible to use shield tank. That is the point. Shield Ishtar = OP Ishtar. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 740	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:15:18 - [65] - Quote More data for the cri-ers - PvP damage done by ship class, segmented by weapons type. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Adrien Venportt NED-Clan Reshipping Services Goonswarm Federation 0	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:15:42 - [66] - Quote Dez Affinity wrote: You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. Not Empty Quoting.
Alexander McKeon Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion 95	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:16:19 - [67] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. And every single one of those hulls gets a generic bonus applying to all drone types, EXCEPT the Ishtar. Vexor: +50% damage & HP Myrmidon: +50% damage & HP Eos: +50% Damage & HP Tristan: +50% HP & Tracking speed (Only has bandwidth for a flight of lights, two mediums, or one heavy) VNI: +50% Drone HP/damage, +25% Max Velocity & Tracking Ishtar: +25% Sentry HP & Damage, +50% HP/Damage other drones, +37.5% Heavy Drone max velocity & tracking +25% Sentry drone optimal range & tracking speed, +25km to drone operation range. Only one of these drone ships has a bonus to damage projection (which is important for sentries) and gets a bonus to drone control range, requiring fewer fitting compromises in order to kill a target 100km away. No other ship listed here can sit at such a range from their target while making as few fitting compromises as the Ishtar to get their drones working so far away, nor has the drone bandwidth / bay to deploy three full flights of sentries. The Ishtar is uniquely able amongst sub-battleship hulls to deploy sentry drones which are effective at long engagement ranges, control them from such a range, and carry enough drones to be effective over a sustained engagement. These things are why the Ishtar is broken. Remove the sentry application bonuses, keep the sentry DPS buff at +25%, and you'll find a much more balanced hull.
Lt Shard Team Pizza Good at this Game 49	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:16:22 - [68] - Quote I think the issue with the ishtar is its bonuses, not fitting/slots/modules that sentry tracking/range is ridiggalus
Hullender Biafra' State 0	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:16:29 - [69] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Dez Affinity wrote: You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. Whack an Ishtar. Better just delete it from the game, problem solved.
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky Nolen Trading 36	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:16:39 - [70] - Quote What the hell foozie, you punish all drone ships because of the ishtar's garbage? god damnit, can you not punish other ships because one is OP, this is the same thing you did to rail ships because eagles and slippery pete tengus did their thing. Another thing, you realize the ishtar has the same capacitor regeneration rate as the zealot despite the ishtar having little use for all that capacitor which is why those 100mn AB fits were kiting the hell out of people. At least now with -1 mid and +1 low armor fits will be favored heavily.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 16266	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:16:49 - [71] - Quote How to fix the ishtar. Remove sentry drones from cruiser hulls. Ishtar is now fixed. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Jay Amazingness Amok. Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:16:57 - [72] - Quote finally ccp it only took you 2 years now fix tengus pls
Jay Amazingness Amok. Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:17:45 - [73] - Quote baltec1 wrote: How to fix the ishtar. Remove sentry drones from cruiser hulls. Ishtar is now fixed. BATTLE SHIP LEVEL WEAPONS ON A CRUISER there is something a little wrong there don't you think? These changes won't really do much I mean the ishtar will still be used as much just people will now armor tank it, and use those dank ewar slosts. I would like to see the ishtar have a similar bonus to the fila allow it to use some mediums and do good damage with them, the ishtar would have the t2 resists over the gila aswell as the hull cost, maybe limit the band width to 100 instead of 125, this also allows the domi to get a little bit of a buff too.
Mostlyharmlesss GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 161	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:19:15 - [74] - Quote Rip carrier ratting with heavy drones. I assume you're going to fix that with the upcoming capital ships revamp, right? Follow me on Twitter for the latest regarding GoonSwarm Federation and our recruitment drives!
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 16266	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:19:31 - [75] - Quote Jay Amazingness wrote: BATTLE SHIP LEVEL WEAPONS ON A CRUISER there is something a little wrong there don't you think? And to think they took away my ability to fit a single Dreadnought blaster to my mega Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Hullender Biafra' State 0	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:20:46 - [76] - Quote Suitonia wrote: Mind wrote: don't make ships better, just make them worse = balancing a'la CCP gg Because this causes power-creep, instead of balancing drones and the Ishtar, if you boost every single other thing, you then have even more balancing problems (very like to have a lot of overtuned/undertuned with the new buff numbers when you change so much stuff) then you have existing content like PVE getting easier due to more powerful player ships. Because making ships unfun to fly is good for the game and PVE is fun.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1105	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:21:28 - [77] - Quote how about 10% damage per level and a falloff or tracking bonus for the tempest instead. rupture could do with the same kind of treatment btw (or you could fix projectiles lol).
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 744	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:21:54 - [78] - Quote Lt Shard wrote: I think the issue with the ishtar is its bonuses, not fitting/slots/modules that sentry tracking/range is ridiggalus Removing the Optimal range part of the double Optimal + Tracking double bonus would help mitigate things. CCP Rise? Jay Amazingness wrote: baltec1 wrote: How to fix the ishtar. Remove sentry drones from cruiser hulls. Ishtar is now fixed. BATTLE SHIP LEVEL WEAPONS ON A CRUISER there is something a little wrong there don't you think? You could be right. Maybe. Perhaps. No one could see it coming. It's nbd - Odyssey 1.1 Sept 2013. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 1868	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:23:01 - [79] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: More data for the cri-ers - http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 PvP damage done by ship class, segmented by weapons type. Source? Signature Tanking Best Tanking Exploration Frontier Inc [Ex-F] CEO - BRAVE - Eve-guides.fr
Eugene Kerner TunDraGon That Escalated Quickly. 1613	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:23:30 - [80] - Quote DDA nerf hits every drone based ship, even those that are not overpowered in relation to their cost...I do not see how that is balanced. Just nerf the ishtar in a way that puts her in line. TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] " -á CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a di++k joke."-áRobin Williams - RIP
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 744	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:24:20 - [81] - Quote Altrue wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: More data for the cri-ers - http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 PvP damage done by ship class, segmented by weapons type. Source? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5789717#post5789717 Good luck trying to get them to poast the original with numbers, or graphs with any Y axis scales. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Adrien Venportt NED-Clan Reshipping Services Goonswarm Federation 0	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:24:21 - [82] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Dez Affinity wrote: You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. Whack an Ishtar. Not even close. Please stop trying. It has been said a year ago, we will say it again. Limit sentries to a BS hull or remove the sentry bonus from the Isthar itself. Or nerf the tracking of the sentry drones. But noooo, as always you refuse to adress the actual root of the problem and just keep chipping away at the tree. With a blunt axe. And blindfolded. Ever wondered what happened to cruiser and/or battlecruiser sized doctrines in nullsec? Isthars. Also, I hear Riot is hiring.
beakerax Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 170	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:24:42 - [83] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Decrease in max velocity from 185m/s to 175m/s ugh +1 for DDA nerf though
Masaaq PYRO MANIACS A Band Apart. 6	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:25:10 - [84] - Quote Indeed these are steps in the right direction; good work. However, as others have already stated, the issue with the Ishtar is the huge damage at such great ranges with incredible application. Rise, you misinterpret. Do not remove the ability to utilise sentries on cruiser hulls, but simply remove the optimal and tracking bonus of sentries from the Ishtar.
Icemandk Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 37	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:26:41 - [85] - Quote Remove that stupid ship from the game. and lets move on
Phoenix Jones Isogen 5 1411	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:27:35 - [86] - Quote baltec1 wrote: How to fix the ishtar. Remove sentry drones from cruiser hulls. Ishtar is now fixed. Or you can reduce the bandwidth of the Ishtar, dropping down to 100 from 125. You then reduce the bandwidth of heavy drones from 25 to 20. You then reduce the dronebay of the Ishtar slightly (225 to 250 is about right). So it keeps sentry potential but loses 20% of its sentry damage. It keeps all of its heavy drone damage. It is now relatively on par with the myrmidon, stratios, drone proteus (hahahaha), minus it's bonuses to sentry's They took a sledge hammer, swung randomly and hit everything. The drone damage amps are a good choice, but they killed the shield Ishtar. Was the shield Ishtar the issue? Yaay!!!!
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1105	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:28:51 - [87] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. it's one of the really terrible things about them, more like. having slow, useless vulnerable drones on my vexor/algos with no spares isn't what makes it interesting or good.
Suitonia Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 562	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:29:42 - [88] - Quote On the subject of the Tempest boost, It is well warranted, I think it would be interesting to see a larger flat damage bonus and a projection bonus instead, say 10% Large Projectile damage and 10% Large Projectile Falloff/Optimal Range/Tracking instead to give the Tempest a role as a ship which has projection, with slightly less raw DPS output than the Maelstrom, but more Alpha, making it more attractive as a long-range fleet platform, while the Maelstrom retains its strengths as a hardier brawler and more raw firepower at expense of Alpha/Projection. This is a great alternative though. I think a lot of people don't appreciate how strong the rate of fire bonus increase is, so I'll spell it out for them here. Previously the Tempest had 9.975 Effective Turrets. (6 x 1.25 [Damage] x 1.33 [Rate of Fire]) 25% bonus to rate of Fire is a 33% DPS Increase, because the way you calculate rate of fire bonuses. ( 1 / 0.75 = 1.33) 37.5% bonus to rate of fire is a 60% DPS increase, (1 / 0.625 = 1.6) Therefore the Tempest is going to have 12 Effective Turrets (6x 1.25 [Damage] x 1.6 [Rate of Fire]) Which is very significant, approx 20%~ DPS increase for the Tempest. Contributer to Eve is Easy: https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 1728	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:30:03 - [89] - Quote Removing some or all of the sentry bonuses on the Ishtar would be considerably more effective at keeping them in line. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Alexander McKeon Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion 96	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:30:07 - [90] - Quote Masaaq wrote: Rise, you misinterpret. Do not remove the ability to utilise sentries on cruiser hulls, but simply remove the optimal and tracking bonus of sentries from the Ishtar. Sentries with no special optimal + tracking bonus would be fine on the Ishtar; turn it into an optimal range bonus for heavy drones or something so that they can operate outside of easy smartbomb range; that would keep the Ishtar in possession of a unique, interesting bonus without giving it game-wrecking damage projection.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 16267	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:30:48 - [91] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: how about 10% damage per level and a falloff or tracking bonus for the tempest instead. rupture could do with the same kind of treatment btw (or you could fix projectiles lol). Nasty things would happen if you gave the pest a tracking bonus. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
battle Barviainen KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:33:25 - [92] - Quote Yeah remove the sentry bonuses from it and let it keep the current slot layout
Alain Colcer Agiolet Security and Logistics 140	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:33:52 - [93] - Quote Maybe DDA I's should be just 10% every goes up from there and you finally add the missing drone hardwirings for 1-2-3-4-5-6% bonuses?
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 747	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:35:12 - [94] - Quote Suitonia wrote: Which is very significant, approx 20%~ DPS increase for the Tempest. Always liked this spaceships with sails. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2915	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:35:34 - [95] - Quote battle Barviainen wrote: Yeah remove the sentry bonuses from it and let it keep the current slot layout If the slot layout is kept the same then people would just start to complain about brawling Ishtars with 5 heavy drones and 4 DDAs instead. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky Nolen Trading 36	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:35:58 - [96] - Quote Alain Colcer wrote: Maybe DDA I's should be just 10% every goes up from there and you finally add the missing drone hardwirings for 1-2-3-4-5-6% bonuses? nobody uses DDA I's because the T2 variant just wants Drones to V
battle Barviainen KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:37:28 - [97] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: battle Barviainen wrote: Yeah remove the sentry bonuses from it and let it keep the current slot layout If the slot layout is kept the same then people would just start to complain about brawling Ishtars with 5 heavy drones and 4 DDAs instead. brawling ishtars are catch able compared to the sentry, it will also make alot of fun in smaller gangs as you'd need to kite them, remeber he pwg nerf will also remove some of the tank it can sport
Jafit McJafitson Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 494	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:38:11 - [98] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. The only other type of ship that can use a weapon above its size class are Attack Battlecruisers, and these were designed from the ground up to balance that perk by being very fragile and difficult to tank. ABCs also can't pop their battleship guns off their hull and fix themselves up with a nice set of mediums or small guns, they're stuck with the choice they made when fitting the ship, and they have many predators because of this. Ishtars however can kite and brawl quite happily while having battleship level DPS, and enough drone capacity to maintain a very flexible engagement profile. This applies somewhat to VNIs too. I'm sure its very interesting from an academic viewpoint, that drones are so flexible, but its not very interesting for the players who have been flying and fighting the same dominant ship class for an entire year.
Tarra Nobilii Forged Souls 10	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:38:31 - [99] - Quote I am concerned about nerfing all drone boats with this change. The proposal, specifically regarding the tempest, gives it massive DPS...when compared to its Amarr counterparts, it is a joke. The Armageddon will get nerfed by DDAs, the Apoc and Abaddon, while tanky, do anemic dps overall. The DDA changes are also going to hurt a number of very good ships at present (how balanced they are is up for discussion); such as the Stratios, Nestor, Sin , Amarr recons, etc. While I agree that the ishtar is overly good, nerf to DDA is too broad...when coupled with a Tempest buff, things will be made imbalanced. The Rokh is terrible as a combat ship...is its role to be primarily a smartbombing ship? A cursory look at the killboards indicates that is the overwhelming use of that hull...seems wasteful.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:39:08 - [100] - Quote This gonna be good. Carebear tears incoming for 1-3% nerf to DDA. "But mah isk ticks". Rise, while you're adjusting the TFI, think you could add a bit more cargo space? Large ammo is alil bulky for acs and trying to fit more than 2 reloads of cap boosters is difficult. Good change on pest though. Didnt ruin it, just gave it more dps.. so now my dual 425 pest will have more dps than a HAC \o/ More ishtar nerfs are good. Tired of hearing about it. Look forward to BC changes. My sig? Maybe? Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 747	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:39:12 - [101] - Quote Alexander McKeon wrote: Masaaq wrote: Rise, you misinterpret. Do not remove the ability to utilise sentries on cruiser hulls, but simply remove the optimal and tracking bonus of sentries from the Ishtar. Sentries with no special optimal + tracking bonus would be fine on the Ishtar; turn it into an optimal range bonus for heavy drones or something so that they can operate outside of easy smartbomb range; that would keep the Ishtar in possession of a unique, interesting bonus without giving it game-wrecking damage projection. Heavies on the Ishtar are already double-bonused. Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to Light, Medium, and Heavy Drone hit points and damage, 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hit points and damage Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 5000m bonus to Drone operation range 5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed Projection & application Double-Bonused Long-range Battleship-class weapons on a cruiser and they don't see a problem. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
battle Barviainen KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:39:58 - [102] - Quote The DDA nerf might also be too broad as it wacks all the other drone boats into the ground
Suitonia Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 563	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:41:43 - [103] - Quote Tarra Nobilii wrote: I am concerned about nerfing all drone boats with this change. The proposal, specifically regarding the tempest, gives it massive DPS...when compared to its Amarr counterparts, it is a joke. The Armageddon will get nerfed by DDAs, the Apoc and Abaddon, while tanky, do anemic dps overall. The DDA changes are also going to hurt a number of very good ships at present (how balanced they are is up for discussion); such as the Stratios, Nestor, Sin , Amarr recons, etc. While I agree that the ishtar is overly good, nerf to DDA is too broad...when coupled with a Tempest buff, things will be made imbalanced. The Rokh is terrible as a combat ship...is its role to be primarily a smartbombing ship? A cursory look at the killboards indicates that is the overwhelming use of that hull...seems wasteful. I think there are a lot more drone ships which are currently in a too good or strong place than there are average drone ships which are going to get overly hurt by these changes. However, with the short development cycle time, there is plenty of opportunity for ships which are currently performing average (Like the Arbitrator) to receive some compensation if the DDA nerf hurts its viability competitively. Contributer to Eve is Easy: https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:42:35 - [104] - Quote battle Barviainen wrote: [quote=Omnathious Deninard] brawling ishtars are catch able compared to the sentry, it will also make alot of fun in smaller gangs as you'd need to kite them, remeber he pwg nerf will also remove some of the tank it can sport Yes, the slowest cruiser can certainly be caught. And IF you lose.. just fly away from the sitting duck.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 765	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:43:23 - [105] - Quote One potential fix for the Ishtar and other drone boats is to redistribute (or create new) some of the drone augmentation modules to the high slots, give them similar fitting cost to weapons, and specialize some for sentries and make them only work x distance from the ship. Now you don't have people complaining that fitting on drone boats is somehow wonky and uncompensated by having your guns shot out of space. If you have specialized sentry modules you have opportunity to create tradeoffs of mobility for ability. Modules that would be good for this - expand sentry engagement range to any target locked by dronehost. Only works on sentries within 10km of ship. *becomes partiallh vulnerable to Damps, ECM, Neuts. Potentially affects drones from other ships, but leaves them vulnerable to being bombed since they are now in a tight(ish) pack. -improve drone resist. -repair all nearby drones(shield/armor/structure versions) * encourages ship to stay near drones. Tons of others are not hard to imagine. Main point is to give value for ships to stay closer to their drones which impacts the worst complaints of Ishtars.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 747	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:43:38 - [106] - Quote battle Barviainen wrote: The DDA nerf might also be too broad as it wacks all the other drone boats into the ground http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 Into the ground. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Skir Skor Stay Frosty. A Band Apart. 18	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:43:47 - [107] - Quote battle Barviainen wrote: The DDA nerf might also be too broad as it wacks all the other drone boats into the ground Not really, it's only a 2% loss of dps. Eve is already Drones Online and a slight nerf to the DDA will not change this. Drones still have great projection and application.
battle Barviainen KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:44:06 - [108] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: battle Barviainen wrote: [quote=Omnathious Deninard] brawling ishtars are catch able compared to the sentry, it will also make alot of fun in smaller gangs as you'd need to kite them, remeber he pwg nerf will also remove some of the tank it can sport Yes, the slowest cruiser can certainly be caught. And IF you lose.. just fly away from the sitting duck. Enought webs and scrams and it's literally dead in the water
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky Nolen Trading 36	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:44:59 - [109] - Quote Suitonia wrote: Tarra Nobilii wrote: I am concerned about nerfing all drone boats with this change. The proposal, specifically regarding the tempest, gives it massive DPS...when compared to its Amarr counterparts, it is a joke. The Armageddon will get nerfed by DDAs, the Apoc and Abaddon, while tanky, do anemic dps overall. The DDA changes are also going to hurt a number of very good ships at present (how balanced they are is up for discussion); such as the Stratios, Nestor, Sin , Amarr recons, etc. While I agree that the ishtar is overly good, nerf to DDA is too broad...when coupled with a Tempest buff, things will be made imbalanced. The Rokh is terrible as a combat ship...is its role to be primarily a smartbombing ship? A cursory look at the killboards indicates that is the overwhelming use of that hull...seems wasteful. I think there are a lot more drone ships which are currently in a too good or strong place than there are average drone ships which are going to get overly hurt by these changes. However, with the short development cycle time, there is plenty of opportunity for ships which are currently performing average (Like the Arbitrator) to receive some compensation if the DDA nerf hurts its viability competitively. The last 9 months has been nothing but nerfs. Makes me sad that no ships get to rise to power and instead CCP is just focusing on flavor of the month/year fits because people use them. I'd really like the punisher to shine or I'd really like the arbitrator to be a good displacement for the crucifier. I really wish I had a reason to use the rupture for anything but arties and autocannons suck. But apparently proposing any buffs to underpowered ships in a huge fog of nerfs is considered "power creep"
Kalihira Ultramar Independent Contracting 35	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:45:24 - [110] - Quote Alexander McKeon wrote: CCP Rise wrote: This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. And every single one of those hulls gets a generic bonus applying to all drone types, EXCEPT the Ishtar. It is also notable that only the VNI & Ishtar have what could be called a 'projection' bonus, though the VNI just gets drones to you faster. Sentries on sub-battleship hulls are fine. Sentries with bonused optimal range and tracking on those hull sizes are not balanced, and you won't find that on any of the drone boats you mentioned save this one. Vexor: +50% damage & HP Myrmidon: +50% damage & HP Eos: +50% Damage & HP Tristan: +50% HP & Tracking speed (Only has bandwidth for a flight of lights, two mediums, or one heavy) VNI: +50% Drone HP/damage, +25% Max Velocity & Tracking Ishtar: +25% Sentry HP & Damage, +50% HP/Damage other drones, +37.5% Heavy Drone max velocity & tracking +25% Sentry drone optimal range & tracking speed, +25km to drone operation range. Only one of these drone ships has a bonus to damage projection (which is important for sentries) and gets a bonus to drone control range, requiring fewer fitting compromises in order to kill a target 100km away. No other ship listed here can sit at such a range from their target while making as few fitting compromises as the Ishtar to get their drones working so far away, nor has the drone bandwidth / bay to deploy three full flights of sentries. The Ishtar is uniquely able amongst sub-battleship hulls to deploy sentry drones which are effective at long engagement ranges, control them from such a range, and carry enough drones to be effective over a sustained engagement. These things are why the Ishtar is broken. Remove the sentry application bonuses, keep the sentry DPS buff at +25%, and you'll find a much more balanced hull. You might wanna have a look at the dominix bonusses...
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 747	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:47:04 - [111] - Quote Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: But apparently proposing any buffs to underpowered ships in a huge fog of nerfs is considered "power creep" Because perhaps the rest are in line and they funked up with cruiser drone bandwidths when DDAs were introduced, and again with Ishtar double-bonused sentries and enough cargobay to hold three sets? Nbd, maybe. Getting every cruiser to Vexor levels is not the answer. Getting every HAC to Ishtar levels is not the answer. Get it? Good. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Sof0s Parental Control 1	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:47:27 - [112] - Quote Ishtar still op after the third nerf ......................................check CCP still clueless why ishtar is op .................................check waiting for next patch after Aegis for new drone nerf..... check
Irregessa Obfuscation and Reflections 129	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:47:42 - [113] - Quote While the navy issue ships often have different hull bonuses than the vanilla variety of the hull, the t2 ships have the same bonuses. Will the vargur being getting this increase in ROF?
PopplerRo 21	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:48:10 - [114] - Quote Maybe I'm over simplifying with the ishtar but why not either remove the sentry bonus all together or tether the ishtar to it's sentries. Too far away from your sentries and they stop working, easily solves the arms reach approach as to why ishtar is so strong
twit brent Black Anvil Industries SpaceMonkey's Alliance 28	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:48:14 - [115] - Quote Can we get a small look at ships like the Munin while your doing this? or should we wait a few more years?
Chessur Mining Industry Exile Foundation Warlords of the Deep 568	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:48:45 - [116] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes. First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE, we are going to make the following changes: -1 mid slot, +1 low slot Decrease in mass from 1,100,000 to 1060000 Decrease in max velocity from 185m/s to 175m/s Agility going from .52 to .565 Power grid lowered from 780 to 740 Overall these changes should put a lot of pressure on speed based, shield fits (especially those using over-sized afterburners), forcing a tougher choice between the speed you get with shields and the survivability you get with armor. Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows: Drone Damage Amplifier I - 15% (was 16%) Drone Damage Amplifier II - 20.5% (was 23%) Dread Guristas Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Sentient Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Unit D-34343's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 24.5% (was (26.5%) Unit F-435454's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.15% (was 27.15%) Unit P-343554's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.8% (was 27.8%) Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 26.5% (was 28.5%) And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes. We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level. Will the Ishtar be balanced after this? Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know! Ddas should be hit harder. 10% T1 and 15%T2 for benchmark. Ishtar slot changes make ishtar slightly less thank, but open low slot for more nano / dda for le damage. Tempest change is pretty bad. As has been said ad nauseum, acs are a horrible weapon system. Tempeat needs a falloff bonus or ACs need a rebalance, before i will start getting excited. This playry rof bonus does not nearly help its anemoc dps at anything greater than 20k. As it stands now, pest is completly outclassed by so many other hulls. And certainly comes nowhere close to the more useful ac hulls in game (if they can be even called that.)
Mario Putzo 1437	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:48:56 - [117] - Quote How to fix the Ishtar. Remove Sentries. You are welcome.
Rothar Luke Have Guns Will Travel SpaceMonkey's Alliance 4	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:51:10 - [118] - Quote Ishtar nerf ( As someone who loves Ishtar) Removing a midslot? I approve! However, editing the speed? Not so sure about that. DDA nerfs? I approve of this too! Tempest buff, good I guess? I don't fly Tempest >.> Please nerf Gila.
Aryth GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1737	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:51:30 - [119] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. I tend to agree with this. However, how many wiffs with the nerf bat is it going to take before you guys get dramatic? Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Creator of Burn Jita Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky Nolen Trading 36	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:51:47 - [120] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: But apparently proposing any buffs to underpowered ships in a huge fog of nerfs is considered "power creep" Because perhaps the rest are in line and they funked up with cruiser drone bandwidths when DDAs were introduced, and again with Ishtar double-bonused sentries and enough cargobay to hold three sets? Nbd, maybe. Getting every cruiser to Vexor levels is not the answer. Getting every HAC to Ishtar levels is not the answer. Get it? Good. Holy **** no body said "hurr get the power level to ishtar levels" like god damn you took that 0 to crazy in one post I said give under used ships a purpose. Theres no real reason to use a rupture especially when it only gets 4 guns with a double damage bonus is mediocre anyway. I really wish the punisher was good and didn't get scram kited by other brawl ships. I really wish I had a reason to use the rupture for anything, I really wish all those underpowered and under used ships that no one uses had a useable purpose but like I said anytime I propose "hey no one uses that ship, can we make it viable" is met with people like you who think that a buff on a rupture is the same as asking for it to be as powerful as the ishtar. The false equivalence is the worst strawman of my post I could possibly imagine.
gascanu Bearing Srl. 209	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:52:20 - [121] - Quote Alexander McKeon wrote: Masaaq wrote: Rise, you misinterpret. Do not remove the ability to utilise sentries on cruiser hulls, but simply remove the optimal and tracking bonus of sentries from the Ishtar. Sentries with no special optimal + tracking bonus would be fine on the Ishtar; turn it into an optimal range bonus for heavy drones or something so that they can operate outside of easy smartbomb range; that would keep the Ishtar in possession of a unique, interesting bonus without giving it game-wrecking damage projection. the ishtar has been able to fit 5 sentrys since forever, and there was no issue with it; the real problems started when you gave it the optimal+tracking bonuses; so why not just remove those bonuses instead of nerfing right left and centre and hope you got it right this time? this is what, third or fourth nef regarding ishtar?
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 747	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:53:12 - [122] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. How do you reconcile the particular case of the Ishtar competing not within its own class with other HACs, but with Battleships, even post-Scylla? // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Elana Apgar Static-Noise Upholders 56	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:54:02 - [123] - Quote These changes look great!
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1433	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:54:12 - [124] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Altrue wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: More data for the cri-ers - http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 PvP damage done by ship class, segmented by weapons type. Source? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5789717#post5789717 Good luck trying to get them to poast the original with numbers, or graphs with any Y axis scales. You know, it's clearly not right or the whole story since, you know, missiles aren't there.
Akasha Mayan Paladin Order Fidelas Constans 10	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:55:15 - [125] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know! I really don't want to be negative, as I appreciate you're at least not ignoring it (even more than a year after starting to tap at it) but, quite probably nothing. Because as a battleship it's not usefully competitive with ishtars which do the same dps from range, moving twice the speed and without even having to commit. It's way less mobile, slow and a pain in the ass compared to any cruiser fleet that will still still run rings around it. That is the general undesirability of BS. For long range travel (where 'long range' is 10 jumps now), can't superhighway them through Thera in workable numbers and don't hit any HACs at all for enough of a damn to make it worth the trouble. Can you really not see it? Ishtars as a free-mobile flexible doctrine need to die. They are a constraint on general fleet diversity and a cancer on the game. You can't fit anything smaller to chance any kind of asymmetric fight (frankly, you're also likely to be slower while trying) for a result other than to die, so to stand a chance the easiest answer is just use the same. That's boring. That's been the case for a very long time now. This is why plenty of us hate it so much. How many of us use ishtars with anything but sentries as its primary weapon system? Yeah none of us, right. I'm on board with the ishtar/vexor et al being a different way (with different vulnerabilities) to compose and fight a fleet but that it can deploy these sentries effectively and then run off distorts the hull beyond sense. Try breaking them. even for a weekend. See if anyone uses the hull at all.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 747	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:55:17 - [126] - Quote Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: But apparently proposing any buffs to underpowered ships in a huge fog of nerfs is considered "power creep" Because perhaps the rest are in line and they funked up with cruiser drone bandwidths when DDAs were introduced, and again with Ishtar double-bonused sentries and enough cargobay to hold three sets? Nbd, maybe. Getting every cruiser to Vexor levels is not the answer. Getting every HAC to Ishtar levels is not the answer. Get it? Good. Holy **** no body said "hurr get the power level to ishtar levels" like god damn you took that 0 to crazy in one post Vexor, VNI & Ishtar are fine then? // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Alexhandr Shkarov Swamphole Inc. Swamphole 17	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:56:07 - [127] - Quote Quote: First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE The current changes are nice but they essentially don't change the true problem of the Ishtar, Sentry Drones. If you truly want to change the meta, you'll be much better off by actually removing all sentry bonuses to the ship's hull, and invest those bonuses into more heavy drones benefits. Now I may be completely off the bat here, but what would happen if the bonuses would change to: Gallente Cruiser Bonus per Level: - 12.5% bonus to light / medium / heavy drone damage (+2.5% to offset Sentry Bonus) - 7.5% bonus to velocity and tracking Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses per skill-level - 2500m bonus to drone operation range (-2500 to lower engage range and make them more risky) - 12.5% bonus to light / medium / heavy drone health (+2.5% to offset Sentry Bonus) Role Bonus: Drones take 15% less damage from Smartbombs Just thinking about something that could be an idea? It would make sentries a lot weaker and force them, in combination with the slot changes, to possibly be more close-range focused? All my posts are on my personal title and should not be confused as me speaking for anyone else.
Sister Bliss Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 83	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:59:03 - [128] - Quote Can you please listen to the feedback from the community which has been consistent and aligned for years on this topic. This is the third crack of the whip at the Ishtar and each time we've given the same feedback (and each time it has been ignored). I'm sorry but this is very poor and you need to take a step back and do this properly. I can't think of any reason why any other drone ships need particular balancing at this point in time as a side-effect of fixing the Ishtar. Adding another low slot is interesting for versatility, but it doesn't address the major issue. All you end up with is pilots compensating by using the spare low for additional PG or additional DPS or another Omni. Even the laziest among us would have simply tuned the tracking/range bonus on the hull down to the point where it became balanced. Please re-think.
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky Nolen Trading 36	Posted - 2015.06.22 16:59:45 - [129] - Quote [quote] Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: Holy **** no body said "hurr get the power level to ishtar levels" like god damn you took that 0 to crazy in one post Vexor, VNI & Ishtar are fine then? Vexor and VNI aren't underused nor underweight for their class I said UNDERUSED and UNDERPOWERED SHIPS I didn't say anything about the vexor or VNI, I talked about the punisher and Rupture, PLEASE READ I'm not talking in morse code, nothing I mentioned referenced the VNI or Vexor
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 1728	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:00:14 - [130] - Quote Maybe I should phrase this a different way -- what reasons do you, CCP, have for NOT removing the sentry bonuses on the Ishtar? It'd still be able to field them, just not with the overtuned proficiency it enjoys now. With the short release cycle, the danger of tuning something down too much is just not that big of a deal, because you can revisit it very quickly. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Lim Hiaret Hiaret Family 2	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:04:22 - [131] - Quote When I ECM an Ishtar, should it not lose control of its drones?
Otsdarva IV Dirt 'n' Glitter Test Alliance Please Ignore 83	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:04:24 - [132] - Quote Altrue wrote: And you are nerfing its damage in the process by penalizing every single drone boat. Were they really all that OP?? [/url] Yes? Kite Tristan 5.5kmps heated with 120 dps and MSE Brawl Tristan full rack neuts and 120 dps with SAAR @ 1kmps Tristan with any fit ever Algos brawl fit with 270 dps and 11k ehp Kite algos 2.5kmps heated 250 dps Algos with neuts Vexor #1 t1 cruiser in the game VNI one of the best if not the best navy cruiser for fleets based simply on it's flexibility. Domi has crazy utility and huge staying power. Obv All of the guristas ships are obvious I don't know what else you want me to say Drones are cancer remove forever ty ccp
Dez Affinity Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 652	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:07:22 - [133] - Quote The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing. You introduced DDAs, DPS goes up because the base damage was already somewhat balanced but applying it is still difficult with drone mwd speed, tracking and the easy killing of mobile drones. But then you introduced Omnis and suddenly sentries are doubling their range and tracking. Projection goes crazy. Double down on the change by giving a bunch of ships optimal bonuses. So you're still trying to figure out how to fix this mess while introducing tracking mods for missiles that are improving on ranges that are already balanced (if not op already on some bonused ships, barring HAM/Torps) So the Ishtar will die, once you've figured out it's not the damage but the ability to kite and project damage so much better than anything else. Then 150km Caracals, Cerbs and Ravens will be the flavour of the year you spend trying to figure out what went wrong, nerfing every mod and ship on the way down until you figure out those tracking mods were the cause. Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right?
Ghenghis Kralj Big Johnson's P I R A T 106	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:07:49 - [134] - Quote if you want to actually solve the meta issue: (A) dump drone assist completely (B) remove sentries from Ishtars Once you do this, these other changes aren't necessary, and you won't be ruining other hulls by accident.
Otsdarva IV Dirt 'n' Glitter Test Alliance Please Ignore 84	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:07:56 - [135] - Quote Lim Hiaret wrote: When I ECM an Ishtar, should it not lose control of its drones? No when you kill his drones he should lose control of them, jamming him should do what it does now. One of the benefits of using drones
twit brent Black Anvil Industries SpaceMonkey's Alliance 28	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:09:39 - [136] - Quote Are supers going to get a damage increase to compensate? Sick of getting repeated nerfs on a ship i never log in.
Otsdarva IV Dirt 'n' Glitter Test Alliance Please Ignore 84	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:10:29 - [137] - Quote Dez Affinity wrote: The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing. Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right? To be fair the only one that's REALLY affected by these changes is the prophecy right? I might be missing something however
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 747	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:10:45 - [138] - Quote Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: Vexor and VNI aren't underused nor underweight for their class I said UNDERUSED and UNDERPOWERED SHIPS This thread is abovt overpowered. twit brent wrote: Are supers going to get a damage increase to compensate? Otsdarva IV wrote: Altrue wrote: And you are nerfing its damage in the process by penalizing every single drone boat. Were they really all that OP?? [/url] Yes? Kite Tristan 5.5kmps heated with 120 dps and MSE Brawl Tristan full rack neuts and 120 dps with SAAR @ 1kmps Tristan with any fit ever Algos brawl fit with 270 dps and 11k ehp Kite algos 2.5kmps heated 250 dps Algos with neuts Vexor #1 t1 cruiser in the game VNI one of the best if not the best navy cruiser for fleets based simply on it's flexibility. Domi has crazy utility and huge staying power. Obv All of the guristas ships are obvious I don't know what else you want me to say Drones are cancer remove forever ty ccp ++ ( -í~ -£-û -í-¦) // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Valterra Craven 585	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:11:24 - [139] - Quote Querns wrote: Maybe I should phrase this a different way -- what reasons do you, CCP, have for NOT removing the sentry bonuses on the Ishtar? It'd still be able to field them, just not with the overtuned proficiency it enjoys now. With the short release cycle, the danger of tuning something down too much is just not that big of a deal, because you can revisit it very quickly. I tried that tactic in the last thread we had about drone nerfs. It didn't work then and it wont work now. You have to assume the person on the other end is willing to think logically. But given their stupid stance on "flavor" aka the kinetic lock on caldari missile boats, don't expect anything reasonable from them here either.
Rumpelstilz Rumtopf KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:12:06 - [140] - Quote do u want learn destroy a funny game? see rise at work.
Karti Aivo KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 21	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:13:27 - [141] - Quote I for one welcome our new Armor Ishtar Overlords may it be a happy year until the next iteration!
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky Nolen Trading 36	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:14:41 - [142] - Quote Otsdarva IV wrote: Dez Affinity wrote: The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing. Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right? To be fair the only one that's REALLY affected by these changes is the prophecy right? I might be missing something however The armageddon, the arbitrator, the dragoon, drone based legions, drone based proteus, the stratios, the astero, the nestor, the archon.
Dez Affinity Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 655	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:16:09 - [143] - Quote Otsdarva IV wrote: Dez Affinity wrote: The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing. Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right? To be fair the only one that's REALLY affected by these changes is the prophecy right? I might be missing something however Prophecy, Geddon, Curse, Pilgrim, Arbitrator, Dragoon, Sentinel. Maybe a couple others depending on your fit for them After missiles start getting nerfed in about 12 months time, Geddon gets hit again, Sac, Damnation etc get hit.
Selo ibnSedef KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 0	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:16:20 - [144] - Quote everything is happening as ccp chair stated during his keynote https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PM0H-teYGg
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 747	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:16:29 - [145] - Quote Karti Aivo wrote: I for one welcome our new Armor Ishtar Overlords may it be a happy year until the next iteration! Brawl blaster Ishtar was armour at one time. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Francisco Vazquez Garcia Aliastra Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:16:35 - [146] - Quote Couldn't the sentries be more vulnerable to damage while they are firing? IE easier to target or (smart)bomb? They could return to current parameters when abandoned. Maybe drones could also loose a percentage of "power" when the mothership is targeted with ECM (slower rate of fire), or tracking disrupted (tracking), or sensor damped (lowe drone control range).
Koenig Yazria Adversity. Northern Coalition. 2	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:16:42 - [147] - Quote Thanks for nerfing all the other ships that you don't really see. But hey, someone whined for sure, so nerf them all ! This is stupid.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:16:43 - [148] - Quote Alexhandr Shkarov wrote: Quote: First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE The current changes are nice but they essentially don't change the true problem of the Ishtar, Sentry Drones. If you truly want to change the meta, you'll be much better off by actually removing all sentry bonuses to the ship's hull, and invest those bonuses into more heavy drones benefits. Now I may be completely off the bat here, but what would happen if the bonuses would change to: Gallente Cruiser Bonus per Level: - 12.5% bonus to light / medium / heavy drone damage (+2.5% to offset Sentry Bonus) - 7.5% bonus to velocity and tracking Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses per skill-level - 2500m bonus to drone operation range (-2500 to lower engage range and make them more risky) - 12.5% bonus to light / medium / heavy drone health (+2.5% to offset Sentry Bonus) Role Bonus: Drones take 15% less damage from Smartbombs Just thinking about something that could be an idea? It would make sentries a lot weaker and force them, in combination with the slot changes, to possibly be more close-range focused? Or change the role bonus to +150% optimal range and orbit velocity (on non-sentry drones) so they are outside the smartbomb range of the ship they are targeting and stay engaged on faster ships.
Harry Saq Blueprint Haus Blades of Grass 91	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:17:34 - [149] - Quote Seriously, for the Ishtar, just drop the sentry bonuses and make it heavy drone bonused already. It is not that difficult a riddle, same for any other non-BS using Sentries.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 1729	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:20:15 - [150] - Quote CCP, do not be afraid to over-nerf something. The short release cycle not only aids slow, incremental changes, but larger, more dramatic changes as well. You're so fond of changing and measuring -- why not go further than what your gut tells you, then measure? Remove sentry bonuses from the Ishtar. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 441	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:21:29 - [151] - Quote Is there a reason you're making the ishtar so slow? Have you actually seen the m/s of an ishtar with a 1600mm plate/armor rigs? I for one love the idea of armor ishtars that dont rely on op sentry drones, but they can't be outrun by drakes if they are going to work, thanks D: Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Owen Levanth Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration 396	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:22:21 - [152] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes. First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE, we are going to make the following changes: -1 mid slot, +1 low slot Decrease in mass from 1,100,000 to 1060000 Decrease in max velocity from 185m/s to 175m/s Agility going from .52 to .565 Power grid lowered from 780 to 740 Overall these changes should put a lot of pressure on speed based, shield fits (especially those using over-sized afterburners), forcing a tougher choice between the speed you get with shields and the survivability you get with armor. Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows: Drone Damage Amplifier I - 15% (was 16%) Drone Damage Amplifier II - 20.5% (was 23%) Dread Guristas Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Sentient Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Unit D-34343's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 24.5% (was (26.5%) Unit F-435454's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.15% (was 27.15%) Unit P-343554's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.8% (was 27.8%) Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 26.5% (was 28.5%) And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes. We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level. Will the Ishtar be balanced after this? Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know! Most of the changes look good, but I still think the major reason for Ishtars Online is the bonus to sentry-drone damage. Remove or nerf that and you'll see progress faster then with just tweaking everything else under the sun. Also I should point out the nerf to Drone Damage Amplifiers hits some ships, like the Arbitrator and the Pilgrim, extra hard. Those ships mostly depend on E-War to survive and don't really have much DPS to begin with. Both ships can't really work with a shield fit and those ships are rather flimsy without at least some tank modules. The nerf isn't that bad in raw numbers, I just wanted to point out not all drone ships are super-powered little monsters like the Ishtar and the Stratios. I think if you want to nerf the Amplifiers you should go back and tweak some of the drone ships without massive sentry bonus to compensate. Or you could just not nerf the Amplifiers and nerf the Ishtar itself some more, I guess.
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1531	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:22:53 - [153] - Quote Hm. Now I can remove all the Tracking from the Mids to 3 TEs in the Lows. Or 2 TE, 2 DDA, 1 DCU and a Nano in the lows for better speed and maneuverability. Or a PDS for more cap, more shield and some PG. And 2 DLA I think for even more range since the 2nd LSE doesn't clog up the CPU. I wonder if these changes mean anything at all. Reiteration: Remove the application bonuses for sentries form the Ishtar. And the ship is fixed. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Otsdarva IV Dirt 'n' Glitter Test Alliance Please Ignore 84	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:23:41 - [154] - Quote Dez Affinity wrote: Otsdarva IV wrote: Dez Affinity wrote: The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing. Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right? To be fair the only one that's REALLY affected by these changes is the prophecy right? I might be missing something however Prophecy, Geddon, Curse, Pilgrim, Arbitrator, Dragoon, Sentinel. Maybe a couple others depending on your fit for them After missiles start getting nerfed in about 12 months time, Geddon gets hit again, Sac, Damnation etc get hit. I mean I get that they're all drone boats, and I get that because of that fact they are all theoretically nerferd. But in practice I don't think the changes really matter. Geddons seem to be relegated to a heavy neut platform, the dragoon's strengths aren't in its DPS the arbitrator is looking at losing like 10 DPS on what is also typically bait, neut or other support fit. The sentinel is REALLY strong for small gang, so a nerf is welcome. Recons are fair enough, but I honestly feel the intended nerfs for the rest of the amarr line are either needed or negligible.
Otsdarva IV Dirt 'n' Glitter Test Alliance Please Ignore 84	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:25:21 - [155] - Quote Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: Otsdarva IV wrote: Dez Affinity wrote: The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing. Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right? To be fair the only one that's REALLY affected by these changes is the prophecy right? I might be missing something however The armageddon, the arbitrator, the dragoon, drone based legions, the stratios, the astero, the nestor, the archon. curse, pilgrim IE, anything you would stick a DDA to just got nerfed. I know, but most of the ships either need a nerf, don't use DDAs or don't use drones as their primary purpose
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 441	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:25:41 - [156] - Quote Just remove the sentry bonuses and add more drone hp/armor hp so the ishtar can finally be gallente pride Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Judaa K'Marr Power-Hug Training Bootcamp 3	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:26:30 - [157] - Quote Suitonia wrote: CCP Fozzie - 5:47PM : PVP damage per month leader per class: T1 Frigate - Tristan, Pirate Frigate - Worm, T1 Cruiser - Vexor, Navy Cruiser - VNI, Pirate Cruiser - Gila, T2 Cruiser - Ishtar, T1 Battleship - Dominix http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png No Amarr in there, and with the exception Domi all use shields or have a dual tank option, allowing them to whizz around at max range with little to no speed/tank/tracking penalty other kiting ships suffer. Stop scapegoating drones when the problem is with the kitey hulls.
ugly inside Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 20	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:26:38 - [158] - Quote the WOW version of what CCP is doing: HOW TO BALANCE THE GAME
Steve Dalton Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 0	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:27:02 - [159] - Quote The issue with the Ishtar is both its extreme kiting range and the range at which it can control the battleship equivalent weapons it can launch. This change doesn't fix this. How about making sentry bandwidth higher so that a cruiser can't field five, and reducing that penalty the bigger your ship gets? This means that battleships and capitals can use them, but they can't be abused by a HAC anymore. Or, following everybody else's suggestion - remove the sentry bonus on the Ishtar hull. Fixes that hull, doesn't obfuscate the issue by nerfing ships hardly anybody uses to fix the one that everybody does use.
FT Cold The Scope Gallente Federation 22	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:30:47 - [160] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes. We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level. Glad to see this is finally going to happen.
Kitty Bear Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance 1480	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:31:35 - [161] - Quote Suitonia wrote: Jackie Fisher wrote: Problem: Ishtar Solution: Nerf everything! Just as well you guys didn't chose medicine as a career: Patient: I've got an ingrowing toenail Dr CCP : No problem, we'll just amputate both legs, hmm, better take the arms as well just to be safe. Not sure you really need two eyes either The vast majority of drone ships in the game are very strong, and will continue to be after these changes. pretty much .. My Gila does around 900 dps out to 60km (100 missile dps to 30km) 4x rlml 3x LSE 2x Hardener 1x 10mn AB 3x DDA 1x Shield Relay 3x Shield Extenders My Tengu does somewhere between 550 & 650 dps out to 70km (at work so no game/fitting tool access) 6x HML 1x Medium Shield Recharger 1x Shield Booster 2x Hardener 1x 10mn AB 1x Target Painter 4x BCU 3x CCC Its been that long since I flew a Cerberus that I cant remember how much damage it did, but fairly sure it was in the 400-450 dps range I can currently fit an Ishtar for shield or armour tank, and get double the DPS that the Cerberus does So the -mid, +Low to the Ishtar is definitely a move in the right direction
Destoya Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 427	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:31:59 - [162] - Quote Quote: One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes. Am I correct in assuming the combat BC changes are pushed back until the next release?
Mr Floydy Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 275	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:32:00 - [163] - Quote DDA Nerf seems over the top since you are targeting the Ishtar as the issue. It's as silly as nerfing heavy missiles massively because the Drake and Tengu are too powerful. Oh wait... :/ Surely it would be better to leave DDAs as they are for now, keep this to the Ishtar and see how it plays out? You can then tweak things a little more if need be at a later date.
Porcelina Evil Young Flesh 0	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:32:57 - [164] - Quote C'mon... this is nerfing PVE not PVP. If that is your goal, just say it please. If you really want to reduce the use in PVP, nerf sentries. This looks like a stealth nerf to nullsec ratters to me. You are nerfing ALL drone ratters, while the effectiveness of the PVP ishtar is not changed at all. Congratz on doing things completely wrong.
BadAssMcKill ElitistOps 1100	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:33:31 - [165] - Quote What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Get bombed probably
Soldarius Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore 1312	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:34:20 - [166] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. Distinct and consistent are not balancing factors. They are design goals. It might be cool, but so were AoE doomdays fired through jump portals. How did that work out? What about cruise missile bombers and nano-ravens? I hear those were pretty cool. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about the ability for drone boats to use BS-sized drones vs everyone being able to use lower size category weapons. All ships are able to use smaller sized weapons because those weapons use less fitting resources, drone ships included. If you're a frigate and encounter them you might get a nasty surprise. But when a cruiser opens up and vaporizes a BS in 20 seconds under conditions that supposedly favor the BS while taking negligible damage itself, that's OP. Remember when ABCs (formerly tier 3 BCs) were released for testing on Sisi? I sure do. Remember the missile Naga? I know you do. You changed it from a missile ship to a hybrid ship because having 8 over-sized missile launchers was deemed too OP! Something about 1000 dps at medium/long range with decent application on a super-mobile skirmish platform that hauled ass. Wait. Why does that sound so familiar? Difference is that the Naga doesn't have T2 resists. Nor does it have the kind of application bonuses the Ishtar has. And you nerfed its mobility (along with the Tornado, Oracle, and Talos) after release because over-sized weapons plus mobility was deemed too OP. So on to the actual changes. Seems to me that in exchange for losing some buffer I can either fit a nanofiber and go faster, or I can fit an OTE and apply damage better at longer range. Just what the Ishtar needs. Better damage application and more range. Well, maybe they will actually die now. Not holding my breath. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:36:14 - [167] - Quote For the people saying to remove semtries. Its not a "simple" fix to remove sentries. Each race has a long range turret/launcher HAC that works well in fleets and has limited utility (drones, mids, utility high, speed). They are the Zealot, Muninn, Eagle, and Ishtar. All of these ships are slower than the other HAC (vaga, deimos, cerb). The sac is both i suppose since its a smidge slower than zealot, but has drones and good slot layout, so is a bit more self-sufficient. If you remove sentries from ishtar, they have no projection, neutering the role and leaving gal without a proper ranged ship. Im all for ishtar nerfs, but straight removing its projection is silly. A rail deimos will not have the range/tank of an ishtar. Which is good, but will again create a hole CCP will need to revisit. I think tuning DDAs will help. Its a newer mod that was too strong. I agree that most drone ships in the same class are a bit too powerful. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
LUMINOUS SPIRIT The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People 834	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:37:11 - [168] - Quote +1 on tempest changes +1 on DDA changes -1 on ishtar change - NOT FAR ENOUGH Cut ishtar more please. As it is, ishtar still projects a wall of death around it in a 70km radius. Sentries track too well, cant even approach the ishtar without being pelted by fire - I speak as an experienced orthrus pilot. Its not even the ishtar per se, its the insane range and tracking on sentries, that ishtar just amplifies.
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:38:48 - [169] - Quote Soldarius wrote: But when a cruiser opens up and vaporizes a BS in 20 seconds under conditions that supposedly favor the BS while taking negligible damage itself, that's OP. Can i have this cruiser?
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2087	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:42:09 - [170] - Quote Wrik Hoover wrote: not ok do you know why everyone and his mother flys ishtars ? Because you sit at 70km **** out dps and when you lose more then 2 isthars you just run away and no one can ever stop you remove the 5% dmg sentry bonus on the ishtar instead yeah it seems like this is more of a PVE nerf then a pvp nerf... TECH II IS SUPPOSED TO BE SPECIALIZED! Make the ISHTAR into a specialized heavy drone ship... I read an interesting idea... just refocus the bonus on the ship away from sentires: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% to medium, and heavy drone tracking speed 10% bonus to light, Medium, and Heaby drone hit points 15% bonus to Medium, and Heavy Drone damage Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 5000m bonus to Drone operation range 30 N Thrust for drones per level Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty 250 drone bay 100mb This will turn the ishtar into a full fledged heavy ship for pve and a medium drone ship for pvp. with 4 heavies you will get 7 drone damage thats half a drone less then now but you also get a better tracking bonus, Also for pvp 8.75 eq mediums with that tracking bonus will be pretty awesome. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1532	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:42:20 - [171] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: Soldarius wrote: But when a cruiser opens up and vaporizes a BS in 20 seconds under conditions that supposedly favor the BS while taking negligible damage itself, that's OP. Can i have this cruiser? Heavy Drone Isthar and Gila if fitted and flown right (I've seen both good and bad Gilas already). Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 441	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:42:33 - [172] - Quote literally going to be moving at drake speeds, gj rise Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2087	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:44:53 - [173] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Dez Affinity wrote: You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. Whack an Ishtar. ccp rise is bad at whacking... tried to whack the ishtar ended up whacking all drones ships and leaving the ishtar untouched... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:46:08 - [174] - Quote Mr Floydy wrote: DDA Nerf seems over the top since you are targeting the Ishtar as the issue. It's as silly as nerfing heavy missiles massively because the Drake and Tengu are too powerful. Oh wait... :/ Surely it would be better to leave DDAs as they are for now, keep this to the Ishtar and see how it plays out? You can then tweak things a little more if need be at a later date. Or nerfing TE because the shield blaster talos was too strong? Putting acs in worse shape since they were balanced around TE? CCP does have a history of doing this sometimes. DDAs are lil different though.. DDAs/drones are actually fairly strong and most drone ships are strong as well. Unlike TEs which were targeted because of a few edge cases and nerfed which ruined an entire weapon system. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 493	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:47:04 - [175] - Quote Stop Nerfing Drones. Nerf the OP Ships. DDA's aren't OP. Not even close. This is as bad as the last Sentry nerf, which once again did nothing except to make it so you HAVE to use Sentries on a Bonused Hull, and the Bonused Hulls are the ones that are silly OP.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2915	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:47:41 - [176] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: ccp rise is bad at whacking... tried to whack the Ishtar ended up whacking all drones ships But then wrote: leaving the Ishtar untouched... This doesn't seem possible. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:49:55 - [177] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: Soldarius wrote: But when a cruiser opens up and vaporizes a BS in 20 seconds under conditions that supposedly favor the BS while taking negligible damage itself, that's OP. Can i have this cruiser? Heavy Drone Isthar and Gila if fitted and flown right (I've seen both good and bad Gilas already). so... those Ishtars and Gilas had 5'000 dps? (assuming a nearly untanked 100k hp BS)
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2087	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:50:40 - [178] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: MeBiatch wrote: ccp rise is bad at whacking... tried to whack the Ishtar ended up whacking all drones ships But then wrote: leaving the Ishtar untouched... This doesn't seem possible. ishtar is dominate due to its sentries and range... they pretty much left that untouched. refocus the ishtar to a heavy drone ship... if you want to pigion hole it to armor... give it an armor repping bonus instead of drone activation range. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Taram Caldar Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS. 84	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:53:42 - [179] - Quote Wrik Hoover wrote: remove the 5% dmg sentry bonus on the ishtar ~~instead~~ as well. Fixed that for you.... However: Love the tempest tweak. Very much needed. Is it going across all tempest hulls or JUST the tempest? "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.-á He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
ugly inside Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 20	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:54:05 - [180] - Quote instead of smashing the ishtar and drones in general.. why dont we buff this guy?
Soldarius Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore 1312	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:55:28 - [181] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: Soldarius wrote: But when a cruiser opens up and vaporizes a BS in 20 seconds under conditions that supposedly favor the BS while taking negligible damage itself, that's OP. Can i have this cruiser? Heavy Drone Isthar and Gila if fitted and flown right (I've seen both good and bad Gilas already). so... those Ishtars and Gilas had 5'000 dps? (assuming a nearly untanked 100k hp BS) 100k EHP is not untanked. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:58:18 - [182] - Quote Kitty Bear wrote: Suitonia wrote: Jackie Fisher wrote: Problem: Ishtar Solution: Nerf everything! Just as well you guys didn't chose medicine as a career: Patient: I've got an ingrowing toenail Dr CCP : No problem, we'll just amputate both legs, hmm, better take the arms as well just to be safe. Not sure you really need two eyes either The vast majority of drone ships in the game are very strong, and will continue to be after these changes. pretty much .. My Gila does around 900 dps out to 60km (100 missile dps to 30km) 4x rlml 3x LSE 2x Hardener 1x 10mn AB 3x DDA 1x Shield Relay 3x Shield Extenders My Tengu does somewhere between 550 & 650 dps out to 70km (at work so no game/fitting tool access) 6x HML 1x Medium Shield Recharger 1x Shield Booster 2x Hardener 1x 10mn AB 1x Target Painter 4x BCU 3x CCC Its been that long since I flew a Cerberus that I cant remember how much damage it did, but fairly sure it was in the 400-450 dps range I can currently fit an Ishtar for shield or armour tank, and get double the DPS that the Cerberus does So the -mid, +Low to the Ishtar is definitely a move in the right direction You have not fit an Ishtar in a long time then. A fairly standard fit with Bouncers is about 450-500DPs and 500-540DPs with Curators.
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2087	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:58:22 - [183] - Quote or lets make the ishtar a medium drone ship: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to medium drone tracking per level 10% bonus to Light, Medium, hit points per level Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 20% bonus to medium drone damage per level 10% bonus to medium drone speed per level Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty 4 high 5 mid 5 low 50 mb limit 150 drone bay There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1532	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:59:16 - [184] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: Soldarius wrote: But when a cruiser opens up and vaporizes a BS in 20 seconds under conditions that supposedly favor the BS while taking negligible damage itself, that's OP. Can i have this cruiser? Heavy Drone Isthar and Gila if fitted and flown right (I've seen both good and bad Gilas already). so... those Ishtars and Gilas had 5'000 dps? (assuming a nearly untanked 100k hp BS) No Solo Roam BS has that much HP unless you bling it. Fleet fits are something else, but that's not what Soldarius was referring to, I would assume. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Kasia en Tilavine School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:02:11 - [185] - Quote Glorious. Not enough +1`s around for all this. Any word on stripping drones off most ships that don't use them? or balancing the amount of drones each racial ship gets? I'm referring to the Thorax getting 5 mediums while the Omen gets 4 and the Maller gets 3. Why is this? Could we get most of them stripped off, and then wait to see how it balances out? or give all racial Attack ships 5 for frigs, 10 for combat frigs, none for destroyers, 25 for attack cruisers, 50 for combat cruisers, 25 for ALL BC's Attack, Combat. With Battleships all getting 50 for attack and 125 for combat battleships. Obviously specific ships like Tristan/Vexors/Arbitrator/Dominix etc would keep their dedicated numbers, I just want consistency among the other hulls that are supposed to have primary weapon systems not based on their drones. It just seems odd that equivalent ships that are not drone/not-drone focused have such disparity between them across races. That would be my suggestion if you don't want to strip them down to just Drone specific hulls...
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 1138	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:04:38 - [186] - Quote re: tempest can u give the cyclone similar treatment or an extra launcher slot right now its got a worse bonus than the drake (5% rof vs 10% kin dmg) as well as one less launcher seems unfair https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
ugly inside Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 20	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:06:14 - [187] - Quote Kasia en Tilavine wrote: Glorious. Any word on stripping drones off most ships that don't use them? or balancing the amount of drones each racial ship gets? I'm referring to the Thorax getting 5 mediums while the Omen gets 4 and the Maller gets 3. Why is this? shoes come in many sizes.. you gotta fit things inside the shoe.. some things you just cant fit as much as you want inside your shoe.. dont get a small shoe..
Kitty Bear Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance 1480	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:06:38 - [188] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: You have not fit an Ishtar in a long time then. A fairly standard fit with Bouncers is about 450-500DPs and 500-540DPs with Curators. I've got an armour tanked one sitting around somewhere while it's true i don't use it very often I do remember it's overall dps output being not too dissimilar to my Gila's Though that could just be due to the Gardes .....
Airi Cho Dark-Rising 103	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:07:06 - [189] - Quote NinjaTurtle wrote: just gunna take stabs at the ishtar till you figure it out huh lol even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time The question is, it it can hide it without letting them all fall down a big mountain ;)
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2916	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:09:05 - [190] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: MeBiatch wrote: ccp rise is bad at whacking... tried to whack the Ishtar ended up whacking all drones ships But then wrote: leaving the Ishtar untouched... This doesn't seem possible. ishtar is dominate due to its sentries and range... they pretty much left that untouched. refocus the ishtar to a heavy drone ship... if you want to pigion hole it to armor... give it an armor repping bonus instead of drone activation range. It doesn't need to be a heavy drone focused ship, we already have the EOS for that. The Ishtar should be as it would seem to be given the progression of its race, an armor tanked T2 drone cruiser. It now has the low slots for armor tank, the sentry damage or projection bonus could leave. Removing the control range would be a benefit, no more free DLA that could be replaced with a tank bonus but traditionally there is only one HAC that gets a tank bonus and the Deimos got that. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Jenshae Chiroptera 1732	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:10:37 - [191] - Quote It would be hilarious if everyone swore an oath to use nothing but Ishtars for awhile, make them more popular than ever and stick to it no matter what. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow Fozzie is treating a symptom.
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 441	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:10:57 - [192] - Quote after some EFT-warrioring: you killed it pretty hard. You will now need pg rigs to fit a decent armor buffer setup if you're putting anything but DLAs in the highs. The lack of neuts/guns in the highs means you'll tank/dps like a zealot but wont have the instant application and are susceptible to firewalling. Before you could at least say you had utility neuts + full tank going for you. Dual rep is pretty much kill due to this as well, and this doesn't even go into making an already slow ship even slower, which pretty much removes the ship from the smaller settings. The irony of these changes: the least affected fit is the shield sentry ishtar Good job, CCP. Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 441	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:18:54 - [193] - Quote if you want to nerf the shield ishtar and transition it to an armor ship, lower the cpu and keep/increase the pg. Shield ishtars are hard on cpu while armor ishtars have buckets of it, and the reverse holds. Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Airi Cho Dark-Rising 103	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:20:51 - [194] - Quote twit brent wrote: Are supers going to get a damage increase to compensate? Sick of getting repeated nerfs on a ship i never log in. You arent using it anyway. Why compensate it?
Awkward Pi Duolus Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 96	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:21:50 - [195] - Quote Roy Henry wrote: Why not just remove sentry bonuses from the hull instead of nerfing sentries, drones, and ishtars themselves? How much collateral damage has been caused to all other drone and sentry ships trying to fix this issue when simply removing the overpowered bonuses from the ship would have removed the sentry Ishtar in the first place? What collateral damage? The hulls that got most kills are drone boats. It's drone problem, not just an ishtar problem. The ishtar is just the most flaming example of the drone problem.
May Ke Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Get Off My Lawn 28	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:22:40 - [196] - Quote As most people are saying: Sentry drones need to be removed from Ishtars. Fin. Who? Me?
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:25:16 - [197] - Quote Kitty Bear wrote: Terra Chrall wrote: You have not fit an Ishtar in a long time then. A fairly standard fit with Bouncers is about 450-500DPs and 500-540DPs with Curators. I've got an armour tanked one sitting around somewhere while it's true i don't use it very often I do remember it's overall dps output being not too dissimilar to my Gila's Though that could just be due to the Gardes ..... Gardes do about 550-575 but with 28km optimal. So are not used much in PvP unless you know your targets are going to be sitting ducks.
Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack 3695	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:25:36 - [198] - Quote wtf I'm not gonna farm up 500m isk/hr with a 950 DPS Tempest! Un-nerf my DDAs this instant! Oh god.
PotatoOverdose Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS. 2691	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:31:13 - [199] - Quote While any nerf to ishtars is a good thing, the problem with the ishtar stems from sentries giving a cruiser hull (with t2 resists no less) the damage projection of a battleship through sentries. A point that has, incidentally, been raised in every ishtar related balance thread over the last year, many times over.
Michael Pawlicki Aliastra Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:31:36 - [200] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level. ! All of my yes. The Tempest is a bit of an ugly duckling for the Minnie BS arsenal. This should bring its DPS up enough to compete with the Phoon and provide an armor alternative to the Mael. Absolutely pleased with these changes.
Kahless Monstrosity Dissidence Dawn Black Legion. 2	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:37:10 - [201] - Quote Fix the ishtar and quit nerfing other drone boats, do you even think about the effects on other ships? Your stupid dps graph needs to be thrown away. Take sentrys away from ishtars, make them a armor boat, etc... So now the already almost useless Super Capitals, get another nerf? Why do you continue to crap on supers/titans? Do you not care about them? If so just yank them out of the game and refund the SP..
Krell Kroenen The Devil's Shadow 254	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:39:53 - [202] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know! I might spin it in station for old times sake more often . It is nice to see a buff to the tempest. but this change is not enough to compel me to undock in one. To many drawbacks in the battleship class really to make it worth while more often than not. shrugs
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1124	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:40:07 - [203] - Quote TEMPEST LOVE! GÖÑ YOU SO MUCH
James Baboli Novablasters 912	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:40:21 - [204] - Quote Kahless Monstrosity wrote: Fix the ishtar and quit nerfing other drone boats, do you even think about the effects on other ships? Your stupid dps graph needs to be thrown away. Take sentrys away from ishtars, make them a armor boat, etc... So now the already almost useless Super Capitals, get another nerf? Why do you continue to crap on supers/titans? Do you not care about them? If so just yank them out of the game and refund the SP.. shield ishtar is kill. All hail the armor ishtar with heavies, 100k EHP, and spider tank Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
evotta Territorial Hanseatic League 5	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:44:22 - [205] - Quote As already many people pointed out, the problem of the ishtar is the sentries, not the drones in general. Nerfing the DDA would have an effect on all the other drone boats as well, not only the ishtar!
Kasia en Tilavine School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 4	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:48:21 - [206] - Quote ugly inside wrote: instead of smashing the ishtar and drones in general.. why dont we buff this guy? Hey, with the new fleet warp changes, you CAN be him.
159Pinky Under Heavy Fire Mordus Angels 20	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:51:46 - [207] - Quote Just let me know when you're done nerfing the Ishtar. I'm done trying to come up with new fits over and over again. Consistency is needed. So just make a dev blog when you're satisfied with them.
Awkward Pi Duolus Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 96	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:51:58 - [208] - Quote Bunka en Daire wrote: Why u just dont delete drone boats from game??? Even better u can mix up vexor and ishtar in one ship, so no more efforts for nerfing. Or better why u just do not BUFF other ships, so u must nerf all drone boats, because of tiiiiit BLOBERS? So when some1 invest year in training drones, u just nerf them and u make that one year of training pointless... Bad thing with all this nerfing is beacuse u base all that on +200 mans fleet...so....do u think all eve players are part of CFC, PL, and other so called alliances who enjoy to blob 200 ishtars on one Maelstrom??? Do you realize how whiny you sound? What's the point in buffing other ships if it has the same balancing impact by making the playing field more level? Drones are OP. This is a great move. And this has as much to do with blobs as it does with small groups. After drone assignment, in fact, it's really more of an issue with small groups where the most preferred PvP ships are drone boats. Dez Affinity wrote: Remove drone tracking mods. Rebalance sentry drones independently. Problem fixed It's kinda like the old hurricane - had too much fitting and speed to be that good. Was nerfing ACs the solution there? No. battle Barviainen wrote: Removing the midslot will not make it realy that less used, you need to remove the sentry's from the ishtar and let it keep the midslot and let it keep the speed + pwg nerf On the contrary, check out current shield fits, and see how it would be impacted with -1 midslot. You'll either be (armor) tanky or have a punch, but not both. Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: The last 9 months has been nothing but nerfs. Makes me sad that no ships get to rise to power and instead CCP is just focusing on flavor of the month/year fits because people use them. I'd really like the punisher to shine or I'd really like the arbitrator to be a good displacement for the crucifier. I really wish I had a reason to use the rupture for anything but arties and autocannons suck. But apparently proposing any buffs to underpowered ships in a huge fog of nerfs is considered "power creep" You realize that a nerf to one weapon system is also a comparative buff to every other weapon system, right? And hey, get a pest ;)
M1k3y Koontz Respawn Disabled Initiative Mercenaries 763	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:54:40 - [209] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: Make the slowest HAC even slower. Great idea! BC-Speed is nice! Under 1300m/s in an armor fit with a mwd. At least you finally started hitting the Ishtar. Suitonia wrote: Mind wrote: don't make ships better, just make them worse = balancing a'la CCP gg Because this causes power-creep, instead of balancing drones and the Ishtar, if you boost every single other thing, you then have even more balancing problems (very like to have a lot of overtuned/undertuned with the new buff numbers when you change so much stuff) then you have existing content like PVE getting easier due to more powerful player ships. CCP nerf ships and everyone says all they do is nerf stuff. CCP buff ships and now everyone complains about a power creep. They can't win. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Dersen Lowery Defy. 1654	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:03:32 - [210] - Quote I'm not really looking forward to refitting my Ishtars, but that's not really important. +1 to these changes. I'm not sure that the Tempest buff will do the trick, but cheers for trying. It needed some love. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. I voted in CSM X!
1Of9 Professional Friends Mercenary Coalition 145	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:04:22 - [211] - Quote Ishtar is my favorite PvE **** of all game, well since started playing eve. It as a fragile enough tank, not enough buffer to sustain alot of damage, that makes me nervous every time I try to do a higher level plex or site. This ads to the fun in game I love to enjoy. However, with this slot and cpu/grid changes, I wont be able to do this anymore, I will have to move to another ship, problem is, I will not have that nervosism from flying a tank-fragile cruiser-sized almost-no-buffer ship. http://i.imgur.com/p4w9PNO.png I guess the old ishtar smile is really dead now
Viserion Pavarius RESET. SpaceMonkey's Alliance 8	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:06:39 - [212] - Quote Hey, That DDA change not good imo. You are not nerfing the Ishtar specifically (what Needs to be done), you are nerfing every drone boat in the game. It would much be better to change the sentry damage bonus completly from the ishtar rather than killing an entire weapon system and by this, ships who use also sentrys but are not ridiculous overpowered (Domis, Rattlesnakes) and in addition ships who use normal drones (Gila, worm etc)
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 789	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:08:22 - [213] - Quote Mimiko Severovski wrote: So more nerfs to caps (supers/carriers). When is fatigue getting fixed btw? The horse surrenders. Please stop beating it. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
M1k3y Koontz Respawn Disabled Initiative Mercenaries 763	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:12:54 - [214] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Suitonia wrote: CCP Fozzie - 5:47PM : PVP damage per month leader per class: T1 Frigate - Tristan, Pirate Frigate - Worm, T1 Cruiser - Vexor, Navy Cruiser - VNI, Pirate Cruiser - Gila, T2 Cruiser - Ishtar, T1 Battleship - Dominix http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png Drone Cruisers Online. See sig. Your sig is rather misleading as it doesn't group battleships (T1s, Marauders, BLOPs), frigates, Battlecruisers, or other similar hulls together. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 95	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:13:04 - [215] - Quote Remove the Ishtars 5% sentry drone bonus and leave drone damage amps the hell alone.
Alana Charen-Teng Vatlaa Corporation 597	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:13:46 - [216] - Quote Dez Affinity wrote: You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. Pretty much.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:14:26 - [217] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: Soldarius wrote: But when a cruiser opens up and vaporizes a BS in 20 seconds under conditions that supposedly favor the BS while taking negligible damage itself, that's OP. Can i have this cruiser? Heavy Drone Isthar and Gila if fitted and flown right (I've seen both good and bad Gilas already). so... those Ishtars and Gilas had 5'000 dps? (assuming a nearly untanked 100k hp BS) No Solo Roam BS has that much HP unless you bling it. Fleet fits are something else, but that's not what Soldarius was referring to, I would assume. My t1 solo phoon has 96k EHP. Id say thats pretty close. FI phoon is about 130k EHP. Most BS are capable of fielding 100k EHP without much trouble. Even solo fits once you factor in AAR amounts. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
Raquel Smith Caldari Provisions Caldari State 52	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:17:17 - [218] - Quote I was initially sad about this change since I use my Ishtar exclusively for missions and not PVP. It's just a good way to spend a couple hours ever few weeks waiting for CCP to fix null sec. I armour infinite armour tank my Ishtar and use mids for nav computer, drone tracking, cap recharger and afterburner. Now that I'm losing a mid-slot I can ditch the remote armour repairer I used to repair my drones in-space and a cap recharger. I'm still easily, laughably cap stable and repairing 574 hp/9 sec. I get a free low slot which I can put a Drone Damge Amplifier II in which will boost my drone's damage. Hopefully it will help mitigate my ship moving slower.
Beta Maoye 65	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:18:31 - [219] - Quote The subject should be [Aegis]Nerf to all drone boats.
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 790	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:22:11 - [220] - Quote Querns wrote: Removing some or all of the sentry bonuses on the Ishtar would be considerably more effective at keeping them in line. I have to agree. There is no reason a cruiser sized hull should provide bonuses to a battleship sized weapon system. The ship itself is fine - it's the sentry drone bonuses speifically that are causing it to be unbalanced. Fix the bonuses and the ship will fall into line. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1434	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:23:29 - [221] - Quote What about fleet 'pest?
Elektrea Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 80	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:25:12 - [222] - Quote Mind wrote: don't make ships better, just make them worse = balancing a'la CCP gg Its called damage creep, its already happened a little too much. derpgg.
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 95	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:28:23 - [223] - Quote "In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE" The Svipul craps all over the Ishtar on the scale of most overpowered ships in EVE, and has done since its release. When are more nerfs coming for that? Soon I hope.
Tyanni Sonic Jihad The Kadeshi 8	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:41:23 - [224] - Quote "In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE" CCP, if you take time to read (or skip read) the replies you've received so far you'll see the answer is simply to remove the use of Sentries from Ishtars altogether. You've prided yourselves on listening to your player community and now is not the time to falter. What good is removing a mid slot and adding a low when it can still drop sentries and burn away and deal battleship damage, or at least out dps any ship in its class by quite a margin. The DDA nerf doesn't feel like its going to make much difference and as people have pointed out nerfing DDA's nerf's every ship in the game that uses them, some need it, other's don't. The slot changes will make an impact on larger fleet battles, but those who use Ishtars in small gangs aren't going to be bothered by it. One less mid and one more low only means they can speed/nano it more or add more damage but still able to produce battleship damage (or damn close to) at silly ranges with low risk to the ship So far as I can see you have two choices to bring the Ishtar in line with its group. Option 1 - Remove sentries, leave the rest alone (clearly the most logical, easiest choice which the majority of responders in this thread have stated Option 2 - Buff every other HAC to do what an Ishtar can do (800mm AC's on a Vagabond please) and then buff every ship above and below its class to reduce the statistics gap between them.
SFM Hobb3s Wrecking Shots Black Legion. 311	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:42:20 - [225] - Quote CCP: Ishtar! They've found news of your uncle Benjen north of the wall!!! Ishtar: Let me just leave my sword right here while I go find out what this ambush is all about!!! Moments later, Ishtar left bleeding in the snow.
RICO Ramierz Conservtive United National Transport 11	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:43:49 - [226] - Quote - 1 mid and +1 low? I like this! Makes for a better low sec armour brawler with amazing projection as well. It would be nice for a 7.5% bonus to armour reps like the demios this would be much fun for solo. But I still think that the overall resists for this ship are way too high for the sig size and should be lowered slightly rather than nerfing everything around it ( like PG, if you want an armour brawler need that PG bois!) . And yes the DDA nerf is needed so meh
Lara Divinity Black Scorpion Nomads 104	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:51:47 - [227] - Quote more nerfing n more n more n more this game gettin more silly by the day nothing ever gets finnishd or fixed just reduced in module balancing now n b4 ship balancing mbe its time to friggin rethink eve completly gettin tired of all the crap goin on must be really hard to deliver a finnishd product from the start
Nadia Charne Blueprint Haus Blades of Grass 2	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:53:55 - [228] - Quote Tired of seeing Ishtars dominate the PvP blob fleets? Remove Sentries from the game completly. After all it seesm like your having server problems with them. If you do not remove sentries then your going to nerf the Ishtar so bad, people will just go back to huge Dominix Sentry fleets. As for the DDA - bad nerf. Don't do it please. Tempest sounds nice. TFI will have to be modified to keep the balance between them though.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 39	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:07:46 - [229] - Quote Elenahina wrote: Querns wrote: Removing some or all of the sentry bonuses on the Ishtar would be considerably more effective at keeping them in line. I have to agree. There is no reason a cruiser sized hull should provide bonuses to a battleship sized weapon system. The ship itself is fine - it's the sentry drone bonuses speifically that are causing it to be unbalanced. Fix the bonuses and the ship will fall into line. It seems quite a few people want to see Sentries on Ishtars nerfed more. The sentry DPS with the new DDA change (~400-500 DPS) brings these ships much more in line with other ships. The range of Curators on a standard fit Ishtar is around 60km and Bouncers 55km with 55km falloff. Again in line with other ranged cruisers and HACs. Unless the very nature of the way sentries work by being deployed changes, then there is not a lot to be done. As much as I like a pure Drone HAC, I would be up for a complete rework of the Ishtar to have good bonuses and fittings for Hybrid weapons and Drones, while reducing the bandwidth and drone bay of the ship. I don't even have T2 Med Hybrids yet, but I would rather see a viable dual weapon system than have sentries nerfed to the point that there is no point in bringing them. Give the Ishtar's 4 turrets a 50% damage bonus + 25% RoF (8 turrets) & +50% optimal range. Remove sentry bonuses, change heavy bonuses to mediums, etc. Now you have a ship that can fit rails and mag stabs for range, rails and mix of DDA MFS for split damage type, or all DDAs for Medium drone emphasis.
Fifth Blade Jump Drive Appreciation Society Test Alliance Please Ignore 63	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:08:22 - [230] - Quote The mid slot / drone damage amp nerf aimed at ishtars don't make much sense, since Ishtars are already on their way out. Relevent groups are already switching. (TFIs, Machs, Legions, Proteus). You can't expect it to change overnight unless you overcompensate, like this appears to be doing. People are slow to adapt unless forced outright. The Powergrid nerf however.....that is justified. Most drone boats have an overabundance of powergrid, and this allows them to make fitting choices other ships couldn't without massive sacrifices.
Skia Aumer Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance 159	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:12:01 - [231] - Quote Tyanni wrote: the replies you've received so far you'll see the answer is simply to remove the use of Sentries from Ishtars altogether That's not true. I'm consider myself a part of the community and I'm strongly against removing sentries from Ishtar. Or carriers, for that matter. Sentries are OP, and that's the problem. Balance them - and you have a good balance throughout the drone-boats. For instance, sentries EHP could be reduced considerably.
Juan Mileghere Incident Command Southern Star Dominion 32	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:12:48 - [232] - Quote Suitonia wrote: CCP Fozzie - 5:47PM : PVP damage per month leader per class: T1 Frigate - Tristan, Pirate Frigate - Worm, T1 Cruiser - Vexor, Navy Cruiser - VNI, Pirate Cruiser - Gila, T2 Cruiser - Ishtar, T1 Battleship - Dominix http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png What about Fac frig, Dessie, BC, T2 frig, and Fac BS? Blobbing Explained
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 39	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:19:25 - [233] - Quote Skia Aumer wrote: Tyanni wrote: the replies you've received so far you'll see the answer is simply to remove the use of Sentries from Ishtars altogether That's not true. I'm consider myself a part of the community and I'm strongly against removing sentries from Ishtar. Or carriers, for that matter. Sentries are OP, and that's the problem. Balance them - and you have a good balance throughout the drone-boats. For instance, sentries EHP could be reduced considerably. Sentries are not even the problem, the problem is no variation in size of sentries. The only way around, without creating new drones, would be to balance Sentries for cruisers and buff all BC and up drone bonuses. Edit: Otherwise their is no simple way to rebalance sentries and not touch other ships.
Styphon the Black Forced Euthanasia Soviet-Union 31	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:26:24 - [234] - Quote Leave the DDA and droneboats. Alone. If you want to improve the game how about giving some "love" to the ships and platforms that the player base isn't using. Stop the continually downgrading of ships usefulness and upgrade a few ships instead.
stoicfaux 5938	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:27:05 - [235] - Quote afkalt wrote: What about fleet 'pest? Screw that. Is it going to carry forward to the Vargur? Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Schwa Nuts GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 84	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:29:12 - [236] - Quote Wrik Hoover wrote: not ok do you know why everyone and his mother flys ishtars ? Because you sit at 70km **** out dps and when you lose more then 2 isthars you just run away and no one can ever stop you remove the 5% dmg sentry bonus on the ishtar instead I whole-heartedly agree with Mister Hoover. Remove the sentry damage bonus.
Arya Regnar Darwins Right Hand 738	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:33:26 - [237] - Quote Why not just remove the ishtars from game you lazy slob. You are only making armor stronger and shield weaker. More forced armor meta, screw you. EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Rockstara Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion 45	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:33:39 - [238] - Quote fit any HAC to do damage at 70 km. It's tough to get decent dps on such ships at that range. Except for the ishtar, it is ~100% better in terms of damage than the next best option. you don't need 5% tweaks, you need a big axe
Drakken Lowenhertz EVE University Ivy League 8	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:35:58 - [239] - Quote I find myself agreeing with others saying that the sentry bonus on the ishtar is what needs to be addressed, a slightly slower ishtar can still warp out before anything tackles it. I like the swap of the mid for a low, keep that and roll the heavy drone bonus to also include light and medium drones, drop the sentry bonus and lets have some goodfights.
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 110	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:42:24 - [240] - Quote Mind wrote: don't make ships better, just make them worse = balancing a'la CCP gg all ways making stuff better is the dumbest way to balance.... Just remove sentry bonus and stop messing with mass and speed stats,,,,, YOU REALTY HAVE NO CLUE WHAT YOUR DOING... We can all see this from your now 4th change to try and bring them inline while completely missing the point to why there used like they are.
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 92	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:48:21 - [241] - Quote Very impressive, you just hit the ball out of the park with this one Rise. The current drone meta is oppressive and is cutting the number of alternative viable compositions to a point where you'd be crazy not to use drones. These changes seem to strike a good balance of hitting the most prolific offender the hardest while toning down drones in general by a small degree. Also good to see some love for the Tempest, although it was a good ship before in my eyes, I guess the metrics were showing that it wasn't getting much use. With this change it should make a nano fit PvP Tempest more than viable. Please extend this change to the TFI also though.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2244	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:48:34 - [242] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. While this is true, it doesn't answer why Sentries as a 'Battleship sized drone' have cruiser levels of tracking and sig res built into them. The Sig Res to 400 would be one of the biggest things you could change on Sentries that would stop them being one drone to rule them all, while still leaving them as an effective weapons system against large targets.
Unamed Vyvorant Maple Leafs Nation Dark Pride Alliance 0	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:49:53 - [243] - Quote Rockstara wrote: fit any HAC to do damage at 70 km. It's tough to get decent dps on such ships at that range. Except for the ishtar, it is ~100% better in terms of damage than the next best option. you don't need 5% tweaks, you need a big axe Any kind of cerberus HAML Cerb 600dps at 65km RLML Cerb 614dps at 102km HML Cerb 500dps at 152km without new missile modules, and 5%buff heavy missiles can you fit ishtar for that distance?
Bell Heluene AcT Legion Short Bus Syndicate 0	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:54:03 - [244] - Quote All you had to do was remove the sentry bonus from the Ishtar. Just let the battleships play with sentry drones. That means none of this ship bonuses will affect sentries.
Airi Cho Dark-Rising 106	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:54:47 - [245] - Quote Unamed Vyvorant wrote: Rockstara wrote: fit any HAC to do damage at 70 km. It's tough to get decent dps on such ships at that range. Except for the ishtar, it is ~100% better in terms of damage than the next best option. you don't need 5% tweaks, you need a big axe Any kind of cerberus HAML Cerb 600dps at 65km RLML Cerb 614dps at 102km HML Cerb 500dps at 152km without new missile modules, and 5%buff heavy missiles can you fit ishtar for that distance? Do you have any kind of tank or cap stability to stay out of harm with those fits?
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 16274	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:03:28 - [246] - Quote Airi Cho wrote: Unamed Vyvorant wrote: Rockstara wrote: fit any HAC to do damage at 70 km. It's tough to get decent dps on such ships at that range. Except for the ishtar, it is ~100% better in terms of damage than the next best option. you don't need 5% tweaks, you need a big axe Any kind of cerberus HAML Cerb 600dps at 65km RLML Cerb 614dps at 102km HML Cerb 500dps at 152km without new missile modules, and 5%buff heavy missiles can you fit ishtar for that distance? Do you have any kind of tank or cap stability to stay out of harm with those fits? No. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 92	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:04:21 - [247] - Quote Gremk wrote: The only thing I find frustrating about drone boats is how easy it is to wipe their DPS when using heavies/medium/lights. Lowering the DPS is understandable but don't forget the HUGE drawbacks of having a DPS platform that is 100% destructible. And this is part of the problem with the Ishtar, going for its drones is suicidal and is not ever going to be a viable tactic while it has a 375m3 drone bay. If you think you can chew through 3 full flights of heavy drones or countless amounts of medium or lights and then still destroy the Ishtar itself before being vaporised; try it and see how it ends. Only on ships like the standard vexor and the others with 250m3 and below, then to some degree the prospect of destroying the drones starts to become more viable.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:08:10 - [248] - Quote Unamed Vyvorant wrote: Rockstara wrote: fit any HAC to do damage at 70 km. It's tough to get decent dps on such ships at that range. Except for the ishtar, it is ~100% better in terms of damage than the next best option. you don't need 5% tweaks, you need a big axe Any kind of cerberus HAML Cerb 600dps at 65km RLML Cerb 614dps at 102km HML Cerb 500dps at 152km without new missile modules, and 5%buff heavy missiles can you fit ishtar for that distance? Go fit up a cerb fleet and fight an ishtar fleet. Tell me how that works out with that kinetic lock. Also missiles REQUIRE webs/TP to fully apply in most cases. Sentries/turrets do not. You will not get that damage actually applied unless you have proper support. Heavy missiles would apply 300dps if youre lucky. HAMs could be outranged by just burning away from them while youre in sentry optimal.. and RLML.. that reload wont work well in fleets. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
Zappity WiNGSPAN Delivery Services 2250	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:09:34 - [249] - Quote Good stuff. Not sure that the DDA nerf is enough, though. For me, a major reason to use drones is the damage selection. I'd really like to see missile kinetic lock removed. That would help people move away from drones. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
Unamed Vyvorant Maple Leafs Nation Dark Pride Alliance 0	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:11:54 - [250] - Quote Airi Cho wrote: Unamed Vyvorant wrote: Rockstara wrote: fit any HAC to do damage at 70 km. It's tough to get decent dps on such ships at that range. Except for the ishtar, it is ~100% better in terms of damage than the next best option. you don't need 5% tweaks, you need a big axe Any kind of cerberus HAML Cerb 600dps at 65km RLML Cerb 614dps at 102km HML Cerb 500dps at 152km without new missile modules, and 5%buff heavy missiles can you fit ishtar for that distance? Do you have any kind of tank or cap stability to stay out of harm with those fits? 62k ehp 1744m/s 614dps at 70 (RLML) capstable Any problem?
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 40	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:14:49 - [251] - Quote Moac Tor wrote: Gremk wrote: The only thing I find frustrating about drone boats is how easy it is to wipe their DPS when using heavies/medium/lights. Lowering the DPS is understandable but don't forget the HUGE drawbacks of having a DPS platform that is 100% destructible. And this is part of the problem with the Ishtar, going for its drones is suicidal and is not ever going to be a viable tactic while it has a 375m3 drone bay. If you think you can chew through 3 full flights of heavy drones or countless amounts of medium or lights and then still destroy the Ishtar itself before being vaporised; try it and see how it ends. Only on ships like the standard vexor and the others with 250m3 and below, then to some degree the prospect of destroying the drones starts to become more viable. That being said I'm fine with the Ishtar having a 375m3 bay as long as its drones aren't churning out some of the highest DPS on any cruiser hull in the game. In tight contests where ships are not alpha'd off the field, targeting drones is a smart tactic to ease enemy dps. Sentries don't call for logi support, so they go down easily when targeted. Yes the Ishtar's can redeploy many more but they have to move into drone optimal range to do it, giving more opportunities to catch the Ishtar with more of your own dps. It is not the best tactic, but it does have a place. Much like firewalls, they are effective under the right circumstances, but useless other times.
big miker Rifterlings The WeHurt Initiative 331	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:14:58 - [252] - Quote stoicfaux wrote: afkalt wrote: What about fleet 'pest? Screw that. Is it going to carry forward to the Vargur? Oh the thoughts of it Latest video: Ferocious 6.0 Nano battleships / maruaders
Airi Cho Dark-Rising 106	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:17:27 - [253] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Airi Cho wrote: Do you have any kind of tank or cap stability to stay out of harm with those fits? No. Thought so
Ripblade Falconpunch Centurion Logistics 228	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:17:27 - [254] - Quote We're still pretending that the problems with the AFK ISKtard are all PVP related?
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 334	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:18:19 - [255] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: CCP Rise wrote: This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. While this is true, it doesn't answer why Sentries as a 'Battleship sized drone' have cruiser levels of tracking and sig res built into them. The Sig Res to 400 would be one of the biggest things you could change on Sentries that would stop them being one drone to rule them all, while still leaving them as an effective weapons system against large targets. Sentries do have 400 sig res, they just have very high base tracking at long ranges so it's not noticed as much. Bouncers have 0.017 base tracking, the best long range large turret has 0.014. Also, the Ishtar and Dominix have both range AND damage bonuses, something no turret-based BS has.
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 334	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:19:53 - [256] - Quote Kahless Monstrosity wrote: Fix the ishtar and quit nerfing other drone boats, do you even think about the effects on other ships? Your stupid dps graph needs to be thrown away. Take sentrys away from ishtars, make them a armor boat, etc... So now the already almost useless Super Capitals, get another nerf? Why do you continue to crap on supers/titans? Do you not care about them? If so just yank them out of the game and refund the SP.. The Dominix is far more overpowered than the Ishtar is.
Unamed Vyvorant Maple Leafs Nation Dark Pride Alliance 0	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:21:46 - [257] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: Go fit up a cerb fleet and fight an ishtar fleet. Tell me how that works out with that kinetic lock. Also missiles REQUIRE webs/TP to fully apply in most cases. Sentries/turrets do not. You will not get that damage actually applied unless you have proper support. Heavy missiles would apply 300dps if youre lucky. HAMs could be outranged by just burning away from them while youre in sentry optimal.. and RLML.. that reload wont work well in fleets. every ishtar fleet have huginn or rapier, with webs and TP, why you think that cerb fleet cannot have a recon i dont know. How you could otrange hams at 100km, but cannot outrange sentri drones, new midslot modules for missiles alowed for instant change from aplication of damage or range.
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 92	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:26:28 - [258] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: In tight contests where ships are not alpha'd off the field, targeting drones is a smart tactic to ease enemy dps. Sentries don't call for logi support, so they go down easily when targeted. Yes the Ishtar's can redeploy many more but they have to move into drone optimal range to do it, giving more opportunities to catch the Ishtar with more of your own dps. It is not the best tactic, but it does have a place. Much like firewalls, they are effective under the right circumstances, but useless other times. That is very true, where two fleets are able to maintain logi reps then going for the drones would become quite effective. I need to do more large gang PvP. chuckles
Ares Desideratus RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD 266	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:30:27 - [259] - Quote Ships like the Arbitrator suffer needlessly from this change.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1436	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:36:54 - [260] - Quote stoicfaux wrote: afkalt wrote: What about fleet 'pest? Screw that. Is it going to carry forward to the Vargur? Not sure the best PvE hull needs more
gascanu Bearing Srl. 209	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:37:24 - [261] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Hm. Now I can remove all the Tracking from the Mids to 3 TEs in the Lows. Or 2 TE, 2 DDA, 1 DCU and a Nano in the lows for better speed and maneuverability. Or a PDS for more cap, more shield and some PG. And 2 DLA I think for even more range since the 2nd LSE doesn't clog up the CPU. I wonder if these changes mean anything at all. Reiteration: Remove the application bonuses for sentries form the Ishtar. And the ship is fixed. ^^
ArmyOfMe No.Mercy Triumvirate. 431	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:54:54 - [262] - Quote Bunka en Daire wrote: Why u just dont delete drone boats from game??? Even better u can mix up vexor and ishtar in one ship, so no more efforts for nerfing. Or better why u just do not BUFF other ships, so u must nerf all drone boats, because of tiiiiit BLOBERS? So when some1 invest year in training drones, u just nerf them and u make that one year of training pointless... Bad thing with all this nerfing is beacuse u base all that on +200 mans fleet...so....do u think all eve players are part of CFC, PL, and other so called alliances who enjoy to blob 200 ishtars on one Maelstrom??? If this killed a whole year of your drone skills, then you have been flying the ship wrong QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
Panther X High Flyers Gentlemen's.Club 95	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:57:35 - [263] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. Why not? That seems like the reasonable thing to do. First of all, a Vexor is a cruiser not a battlecruiser. Battlecruisers have already been nerfed into oblivion. Someone queue up the "Cahn ah bring mah drake" meme. When was the last time you actually saw any battlecruiser other than a tornado on a killmail? Don't even get me started on Command Ships. Instead of dealing with the inherent problem of battleship weapons systems on cruisers, you do the same crap you pull every other time.."Let's nerf the **** out of stuff that isn't broken!" What other HAC gets battleship class weapons? Cerbs have HAMS/Heavy missiles. Zealots, medium lasers... you see where I'm going with this. Just make drones downwards compatible, not upwards. HACs shouldnt be using sentries, plain and simple. Heavies? Maybe. But definitely NOT NOT NOT sentries. Reduce bandwidth on smaller ships so that they can't use 5 sentries at least. Maybe 2 or 3 max. Give them speed and tracking bonuses to heavies if you have to. You want fleets to use battleships? Make them useful again. Stop wailing about power creep, and make these as they should be, weapons of war. Not sunshine and lollipops. My super smells of rich Corinthian Leather
Panther X High Flyers Gentlemen's.Club 95	Posted - 2015.06.22 22:06:55 - [264] - Quote gascanu wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Hm. Now I can remove all the Tracking from the Mids to 3 TEs in the Lows. Or 2 TE, 2 DDA, 1 DCU and a Nano in the lows for better speed and maneuverability. Or a PDS for more cap, more shield and some PG. And 2 DLA I think for even more range since the 2nd LSE doesn't clog up the CPU. I wonder if these changes mean anything at all. Reiteration: Remove the application bonuses for sentries form the Ishtar. And the ship is fixed. ^^ Close; remove sentries from Ishtars altogether, or increase bandwidth necessary to fly them. If they don't want to lock upwards mobility of weapon class on drone ships, which is the dumbest thing I have heard in this game so far, then restrict their usage by class and increase the bandwidth needed to fly the damned things. Geckos need 50 bandwidth each or some such nonsense, why not sentries like that? Carriers can be rebalanced in this way by changing their available bandwidth, as can battleships. Frigates can't use sentries, neither can dessies, but say ishtars with 2, eos with 4 and battleships with 5, while carriers still get a full complement of up to 10, 15 with DCM. I'm sorry CCP, your ideas just don't hold water. My super smells of rich Corinthian Leather
O2 jayjay Tit-EE Sprinkles Stratagem. 25	Posted - 2015.06.22 22:09:00 - [265] - Quote Why not reduce its fitting and give it 100 bandwidth? Problem solved instead to completely destroying the ship. I personally think the Ishtar shouldn't have BS Weapons and if it does then it should hit less then what a myrim does. ( only can deploy 4 heavies or 4 sentries) remove bonus to drones.
Panther X High Flyers Gentlemen's.Club 95	Posted - 2015.06.22 22:14:09 - [266] - Quote O2 jayjay wrote: Why not reduce its fitting and give it 100 bandwidth? Problem solved instead to completely destroying the ship. I personally think the Ishtar shouldn't have BS Weapons and if it does then it should hit less then what a myrim does. ( only can deploy 4 heavies or 4 sentries) remove bonus to drones. Cause it makes sense. Rise and Fozzy don't roll like that. My super smells of rich Corinthian Leather
Galphii Oberon Incorporated Get Off My Lawn 313	Posted - 2015.06.22 22:23:25 - [267] - Quote Back during the first BS balance pass I suggested the Tempest get a falloff bonus, and I reiterate that now. Remove the damage bonus but give it an extra turret slot, it's not exactly short on spare highs. Keep the rof at 5% & give it the 10% falloff bonus autocannon hulls enjoy. Give the fleet issue the 7.5% rof bonus, along with 7 turrets. Spicy! "Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Terranid Meester Tactical Assault and Recon Unit 299	Posted - 2015.06.22 22:38:41 - [268] - Quote Give drone ships bonuses to certain size of drones, i.e a Ishtar only has bonuses to medium drones, create medium and small sentry drones to compensate? Dominix only has bonuses to large drones, Tristan only bonuses to small drones and so forth.
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 93	Posted - 2015.06.22 23:06:18 - [269] - Quote Galphii wrote: Back during the first BS balance pass I suggested the Tempest get a falloff bonus, and I reiterate that now. Remove the damage bonus but give it an extra turret slot, it's not exactly short on spare highs. Keep the rof at 5% & give it the 10% falloff bonus autocannon hulls enjoy. Give the fleet issue the 7.5% rof bonus, along with 7 turrets. Spicy! I'd rather keep two heavy neuts.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2015.06.22 23:06:53 - [270] - Quote TFI not getting bonus? So.. i guess arty being relavent gets a slap in the face again. Or the fact the t1 version does more dmg than fleet version. Or are you planning different bonus for fleet variant? Could you maybe look into buffing cpu on t1 pest a smidge? Like 10-15 more CPU would help certain SOLO fits be more viable. Plus look at cargo space plz. Maybe its just me, but cargo seems lowish with all the ammo i need to make projectiles not super bad. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
Fanny'Bandit Covert Intelligence Agency Void.. 0	Posted - 2015.06.22 23:31:15 - [271] - Quote ok the changes to DDAs just made my domi ASOLUTELY garbege it was already subpar dps it is now 100 dps less then my drake thats kool ok the fix should have been directed at ISHTARS only nerfing there ability to field sentrys period take away all there bonus to sentrys and make them a heavy drone platform as they should have been in the first place no sentry bs just HEAVYS and medium drones the problem you guys are having and the reason you guys ** 80% of eve off every nerf you do is you do a broad nerf which already hurts bleeding ships like domis/myrmidon are hardly seen and now its gonna be worse cause there dps is ** and to get OK dps they will drop all there tank and be paper bags soooooo heres away to attempt to fix the ishtar problem 1) turn ishtar into a heavy drone boat only that can only hold max 10 heavy drones instead of the current 15 2) remove all sentry ability FROM the ishtar no more passive and even put on it as a static CANNOT FIELD SENTRYS 3) vexor is a mini ishtar it should only be allowed to field medium drones as it is t1 cruiser 4) ADJUST the ishtars either slot layout or bonus to the ship so adjust them like so gallente cruiser skill bonus per lvl 7.5% to heavy drone tracking and max velocity 10% to medium and heavy drone dmg and hitpoints (NO they should not be bonused to lights so they are not a jack of all trades) heavy assault cruiser skill bonus per lvl 5000m bonus to medium and heavy drone control range (this bonus im not sure of due to already getting velocity and tracking above) if you force it to be one thing or the other then change its slot layout(since gallente is suppose to be ARMOR based do this) SLOT layout 4 high slots 4 or 3 mids and 7 lows forceing it to become more of a armor ship or a paperthin shield ship this would fix most of the problems with the broken ass ishtar but it would also stop your broad nerfs to stuff like the myrm which is bad already and dont need to be anyworse and the domi which is slowly becomeing the worst battleship in the game and it will stop the stupid broad nerfs soo plz dont broad nerf and nerf the ship that needs nerfed
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 95	Posted - 2015.06.22 23:42:37 - [272] - Quote Fanny'Bandit wrote: a broad nerf which already hurts bleeding ships like domis/myrmidon are hardly seen and now its gonna be worse...... .... and the domi which is slowly becomeing the worst battleship in the game What...
Torei Dutalis IceBox Inc. Lasers Are Magic 30	Posted - 2015.06.22 23:42:58 - [273] - Quote The only issue I have with this particular change is the inconsistency in tactics. We've had a couple tweaks to the ishtar and sentry drones in recent patches, and suddenly we change to a full blown sledgehammer episode. I personally do not fly the ishtar very much so I don't have a lot invested in this particular change, but I do worry about a couple issues that this nerf brings up. First, the balance team seems to have given up on gradual tweaks here which is something that's a bit worrisome. I also always worry about changes that effect an entire weapon class, although in this case I do think that the DDA tweak here is within reason. I do however like the fact that the balance team is trying to be proactive and shake up the meta by force, after being previously unsuccessful.
HaoSs Ragnarok EVE-RO Fidelas Constans 0	Posted - 2015.06.23 00:18:35 - [274] - Quote hm. Allot of nerfs in 1 go. Like the ishtar rebalance . but 40 powergreed seems a little to much. 20 should be a better number
Sean Parisi Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T 699	Posted - 2015.06.23 00:33:32 - [275] - Quote battle Barviainen wrote: The DDA nerf might also be too broad as it wacks all the other drone boats into the ground All of which are very strong as it is.
God's Apples Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 612	Posted - 2015.06.23 00:42:03 - [276] - Quote Viserion Pavarius wrote: Hey, That DDA change not good imo. You are not nerfing the Ishtar specifically (what Needs to be done), you are nerfing every drone boat in the game. That is exactly the point of the DDA nerf. How does nobody understand this? Drones are too dominant. Thus, they are getting a slight nerf. How anyone can think the ishtar is the only OP drone boat in the game is beyond me. "Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Iyacia Cyric'ai Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 163	Posted - 2015.06.23 01:15:28 - [277] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes. We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level. Will we be seeing something similar for the Hurricane? I find it odd that a Battlecruiser with double damage bonus, fit with 3 gyros does pretty pathetic damage in comparison with other Battlecruisers. It's almost feels like it only has one bonus.
Julian Sandcastle Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1	Posted - 2015.06.23 01:16:01 - [278] - Quote CCP: /me removes the Ishtar from the game. Now you can feel happy that no one will fly the Ishtar anymore. \o/ OP SUCCESS
Iyacia Cyric'ai Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 163	Posted - 2015.06.23 01:18:19 - [279] - Quote Torei Dutalis wrote: I also always worry about changes that effect an entire weapon class, although in this case I do think that the DDA tweak here is within reason. As you stated, there's definitely good reason for the entire drone class to be nerfed: Drone boats do the most damage across all classes of ships.
Sabriz Adoudel Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec 5141	Posted - 2015.06.23 01:48:52 - [280] - Quote I love the Ishtar, but this is a sensible slap from the nerfbat that even I can accept is needed. It's not a crushing blow, but it will weaken the ship. On a sadder note - RIP 1100 DPS gank vexors :(. That DDA nerf hurts there. Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out. I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
Jennifer Maxwell Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 277	Posted - 2015.06.23 02:11:19 - [281] - Quote Mimiko Severovski wrote: So more nerfs to caps (supers/carriers). When is fatigue getting fixed btw? Hopefully never, cause it's not broken. Jump fatigue doesn't affect your ability to get into subcap ships, or to actually take gates when you want to look for a fight.
Serenit Adoulin Sons-of-Liberty 35	Posted - 2015.06.23 02:25:16 - [282] - Quote I see the reason behind this but i still don't like it. Also I spend a very long time training for awsome drone skills and got to love my specialized drone ships. And yes i know changes are necessary https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png But also the 5 midslots were so amazing for armor RR brawlers :/
Petrified Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 267	Posted - 2015.06.23 02:40:25 - [283] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes. We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level. Will the Ishtar be balanced after this? Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know! Thank you. :)
Iyacia Cyric'ai Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 165	Posted - 2015.06.23 02:44:43 - [284] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes. We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level. Will this change also affect the Tempest Fleet Issue?
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 38509	Posted - 2015.06.23 02:45:25 - [285] - Quote Crazy Ishtar changes. It might have high numbers of total damage done, but that's against structures. Not ship-ship pvp anymore. Look at the top ships on zkillboard: http://puu.sh/izesd/9e7d6d377b.jpg The Ishtar has already progressively slid down and off the top 10 list over the last couple of months. Punishing it in this way is just nerfing it out of the game. Ridiculous and totally not balancing. It's just whacking until you feel good about it and screw the players. The power creep of the T3Ds is still well and truly evident, but instead of addressing that cancer meta, you continue to focus on something that isn't even a problem. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Lelob ElitistOps Pandemic Legion 198	Posted - 2015.06.23 03:09:17 - [286] - Quote I actually kinda like the DDA nerf, although it sucks that this will hurt supers. I also feel like nerfing officer DDA's is totally unnecessary as the only ships that will realistically benefit from officer stuff will be supers or the odd vastly over-pimped subcap. IDK that this will necessarily fix ishtars the way you want to with the whole midslot changes. Removing the sentry bonus or reducing it again would probably fix things without nerfing an entire form of fitting for the ishtar. I've never seen issues with 100mn ab ishtars, the real problem has always been a ship that goes almost 2k/s with a tiny sig and can fire 500+ dps from 70km aka sentries on a fast/small sigged ship.
Lelob ElitistOps Pandemic Legion 198	Posted - 2015.06.23 03:11:40 - [287] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Crazy Ishtar changes. It might have high numbers of total damage done by the figures you have, but analysis by the data we can easily see suggests that if it is still doing lots of damage, that's against structures. Not ship-ship pvp anymore. Who cares if it is powerful against structures? Defensive fleets can come shoot those Ishtar fleets much more comfortably than they could before. Look at the top ships on zkillboard: http://puu.sh/izesd/9e7d6d377b.jpg The Ishtar has already progressively slid down and off the top 10 list over the last couple of months. Claiming it is the #1 pvp ship in the game when it isn't even on the top 10 list of ship killers is strange. Punishing it in this way is just nerfing it out of the game. Ridiculous and totally not balancing. It's just whacking until you feel good about it and screw the players. The power creep of the T3Ds is still well and truly evident, but instead of addressing that cancer meta, you continue to focus on something that isn't even a problem anymore because it's already been addressed. Every major alliance in nullsec's GO-TO fleet doctrine is ishtars because they're so broken, and if they need heavy-hitters, its probably domi's. They need a nerf, although I'd much prefer it if CCP would just look at sentries as a whole rather than drone dps.
Bienator II madmen of the skies 3330	Posted - 2015.06.23 03:19:41 - [288] - Quote have you considered splitting the dps bonus into dps+rof bonus like all other damage mods do? I guess thats also the reason why the DDAs have those non integer dps boost values. one of the reasons why ships like the worm are so silly in frig fights is because of the insane alpha. On paper they would project worse than an algos, but IF worm drones hit the frig is half dead. how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Inslander Wessette Killers of Paranoid Souls Universal Paranoia Alliance 21	Posted - 2015.06.23 03:24:26 - [289] - Quote Nice CCP Rise, Suggested it long time . -1 mid and +1 low . yessssss . Thank you . Hmm DDA changes was it really needed ? There will be some ppl crying with Ratting carriers. It shud be okaaaay i guess. Tempest : Will the change be attributed to Tempest Navy as well ? Nice change i'd like to see it .
Sizeof Void Ninja Suicide Squadron 589	Posted - 2015.06.23 03:27:52 - [290] - Quote Sentry drones are the problem, not drone boats - neither specific ones like the Ishtar nor all of them in general - nor the DDA. Drone boat balance with heavy, medium and light drones is already pretty much in line with other ships & weapons. So, nerfing the DDA and the Ishtar isn't the right way to go about fixing the problem. If you don't want to simply remove sentries from the game (which I think is really the right solution), then increase the bandwidth, so that only a maximum of 4 sentries can be fielded. This also makes heavies more viable (currently, there isn't much reason to use heavies rather than sentries).
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems 361	Posted - 2015.06.23 03:44:46 - [291] - Quote Wow, it only took you 5 years to admit that drones and Ishtars are broken. Wait for it..... Wait for it..... I ******* TOLD YOU SO.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 38511	Posted - 2015.06.23 03:48:36 - [292] - Quote Lelob wrote: Every major alliance in nullsec's GO-TO fleet doctrine is ishtars because they're so broken, and if they need heavy-hitters, its probably domi's. They need a nerf, although I'd much prefer it if CCP would just look at sentries as a whole rather than drone dps. A sentry bonus nerf would be perfect. Not the current changes. While the Ishtar was king, the evidence over the last couple of releases suggests that isn't the case anymore; at least not in the sense that CCP identify it as the dominant pvp ship in the game. The killboard stats just don't support that conclusion anymore. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 441	Posted - 2015.06.23 03:49:06 - [293] - Quote inb4 all the people complaining about ishtars die to the next FOTM cause they're bad at this game Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Valkin Mordirc 1142	Posted - 2015.06.23 03:59:41 - [294] - Quote The Ishtar changes seem nice. Though I am personally going to miss the 100mn shieldtar. However it probably best balance pass yet to take away the one mid and add the low. I don't about the rest. Personally keeping the change to speed would seem alright since most people have to armor tank the Ishtar after the pass, so they are going to be slower anyways. Unless I missed something. As for the DDA's. I would say it might be useful. The GIla and VNI are very powerful compared to the rest of the cruisers. I would personally like to see the Faction DDA's to become more common after this pass. That way I'm not paying 400mil to get the old levels of DPS I could get. I should still pay more than the T2 version for sure. But Faction DDA's are still way expensive for 23.8 percent bonus they give now. Also yay Tempest. Asides from the Phoon I haven't found a reason to fly a Mimmie BS yet. Thanks for that. ^.^ `#DeleteTheWeak`
Musashibou Benkei Combined Imperial Fleet Darwinism. 58	Posted - 2015.06.23 04:15:55 - [295] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. Hello CCP Douchebag, it's been a while! When one person tells you Ishtars are broken purely because of sentry drones, you shrug it off. When two people tell you Ishtars are broken purely because of sentry drones, you tell them you know what you're doing. When half of the EVE population tells you Ishtars are broken purely because of sentry drones, maybe you should re-consider your approach to addressing the issue. The Ishtar's ability to use a battleship-class weapon is not the issue. The Ishtar's ability to use a battleship-class drone weapon which specialises in long-range firing while the ship itself remains fast and agile is the problem. Ships such as the dominix and armageddon need sentry drones as their version of long-range guns. However, you've (CCP in general not you specifically) given the ishtar that same bonus to damage and, more importantly, tracking and optimal range. I agree 100% with what Alex wrote that the ishtar wouldn't be so damn broken if it were forced to use close range combat drones. You claim you don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size, but this is a lie and you know it. The guristas ships were changed to SPECIFICALLY cater for their respective drone sizes. The Eos has a bonus to heavy drone mwd speed and tracking but not a universal one. You might want to do your own research of what drone ships have exactly what sort of drone bonuses. Simply taking away all bonuses relating to sentry drones from the ishtar would more than likely fix most of the issue people have with the ishtar.
Stinkie Wizzleteats Spartan Industries 0	Posted - 2015.06.23 04:28:01 - [296] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. CCP Rise, here is an idea. For crusiers make their drone bandwidth 100 instead of 125. That way they get the damage nerf without removing the "flexibility" that you're are referring to. You then would not have to blanket nerf every drone ship over and over just to fix on class of ship using sentry drones almost exclusively. BC drone boats would still have there "ninch" of 125 drone bandwitth, then bss would also be different with their tank and 125 bandwidth Edit: might still need to reduce the hull bonus to sentry tracking and control range on that Ishtar hull, that ship is to op
Midori Tsu Evolution Northern Coalition. 141	Posted - 2015.06.23 04:58:37 - [297] - Quote Bienator II wrote: have you considered splitting the dps bonus into dps+rof bonus like all other damage mods do? I guess thats also the reason why the DDAs have those non integer dps boost values. one of the reasons why ships like the worm are so silly in frig fights is because of the insane alpha. On paper they would project worse than an algos, but IF worm drones hit the frig is half dead - no time to rep against that. due to ~legacy code~ you can't change the drone rof, only damage.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony 5	Posted - 2015.06.23 05:00:02 - [298] - Quote Roy Henry wrote: Why not just remove sentry bonuses from the hull instead of nerfing sentries, drones, and ishtars themselves? How much collateral damage has been caused to all other drone and sentry ships trying to fix this issue when simply removing the overpowered bonuses from the ship would have removed the sentry Ishtar in the first place? all drone boats are OP. (yeah. unpopular statement, I know). Why? Because (a) your ammo is for free. (b) you got the DPS and the range -- usually, you have either/or. (c) you're not using any highslots for your drones, giving you a full high rack PLUS another full weapon system on top of that. (d) you're bonussed for the whole range from small to X-Large targets, whereas turret or missile boats often only get bonusses for one size. I know, I know ... there are counters. Rock - paper - scissors ; there's always counters. But if a certain kind of ship sees so much use there IS a problem. Sure, we could stop whining and all go fly droneboats but I just don't like them. I can appreciate that randomnub likes to field the same DPS as, say, my Rupture; apply this damage without tracking or range issues, hardly any counter save for smartbombs (no, not even ECM or neuts counter your droneboat) AND a still have a full highrack of neuts for free; but when somebody then decides to take it down a notch you Gallentean scrubs act as if you've been mugged? You can have your drone carriers. I really mean that. But let's be honest here: the issue is not just the Ishtar. The Algos, the Tristan, the Vexor (navy), the Dominix, ... they all suffer from the same disease. Your battleship can effectively fight off frigates; okay. So, where's your downside? Hybrids AND drones, for p*wnage at any range? Come on. YES, the Ishtar is supposed to be slow because the Minmatar are supposed to be fast. As it currently stands, these Gallenteans are almost outrunning the Minmatar, with superior DPS, superior Tank, superior capacitor AND superior powergrid -- even though they don't even have to use this PG to fit a weapon. Yes I fly Minmatar. I confess. But I fly Caldari and Amarr as well, and they're all pretty much in a sweet spot: range but no tracking ; tank but no speed ; always-hits-DPS but not a ton of it ... tradeoffs must be made. Either drop the tank, drop the speed or drop the DPS -- and CCP decided to drop speed. Which is a good thing. Consider, on the plus side, you'll be more likely to get a fight out of your droneboat once they get reasonable. As it is, I simply don't engage them because I know I'll get the short end of the stick. This release is looking better and better every post I see It's almost arousing :-)
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony 5	Posted - 2015.06.23 05:11:08 - [299] - Quote Unamed Vyvorant wrote: Rockstara wrote: fit any HAC to do damage at 70 km. It's tough to get decent dps on such ships at that range. Except for the ishtar, it is ~100% better in terms of damage than the next best option. you don't need 5% tweaks, you need a big axe Any kind of cerberus HAML Cerb 600dps at 65km RLML Cerb 614dps at 102km HML Cerb 500dps at 152km without new missile modules, and 5%buff heavy missiles can you fit ishtar for that distance? Yes. And it'll do more DPS to boot.
God's Apples Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 616	Posted - 2015.06.23 05:13:42 - [300] - Quote Sizeof Void wrote: This also makes heavies more viable (currently, there isn't much reason to use heavies rather than sentries). Currently a flight of praetors does 200 more dps than a flight of bouncers, or a 40% dps increase. If you don't see the reason there I'm afraid you can't be helped. "Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Athraws Rising Thunder 7	Posted - 2015.06.23 05:23:10 - [301] - Quote Personally I feel a good move toward handling the situation is to simply swap the drone bays of the Ishtar and the Eos. I think the Eos is extremely weak in its current form. It is crippled by a 250m3 drone bay (on a ship with extensive bonuses for heavy drones). Meanwhile, the Ishtar flits around battlefields, abandoning and dropping new sentries with near impunity. If the Ishtar's bay was dropped to 250m3, and the Eos's buffed to 375m3, I believe this would be a step in the right direction. This would reward players who wished to use the Eos in combat, as they would be better able to carry multiple flights of drones to adapt to their situation. The Ishtar, in turn, would lose some of it's staying power, forcing pilots who wanted to drop and abandon drones to make more difficult choices, a proper exchange for their power and projection. To be frank, I think the entire roles of the Ishtar and Eos should be swapped, but that may be a bit more difficult. It would necessitate swapping the Ishtar's drone control range bonus for something more appropriate, and probably a deeper look into how the 'new' Eos would fit into the Ishtar's current role.
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 31940	Posted - 2015.06.23 05:29:08 - [302] - Quote Drones are like bombs for being odd weapons. Their platforms are going to look weird, especially if you are going to keep touching the hull to adjust for the weapon, based on usage. I think you would need to make it a glass Dominix before you see the results you want. By that I mean 1/4 the EHP of a Dominix (or close to it) to compensate for the Ishtar's sig radius advantage. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
Trajan Unknown Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 58	Posted - 2015.06.23 05:45:56 - [303] - Quote I don-¦t get why you CCP don-¦t remove sentries from everything below a fricking battlecruiser or maybe even battleship. Let the Ishtard be a crazy strong droneboat just not with sentries. From what I have seen in these sentry slugfests speed was no problem neither was tank. You simply can-¦t reach the Ishtars at all in most cases. So even a slow less tanky Ishtar would be more or less the same as the one before. Just listen to the people that understand the game pretty damn well and give you the right input - not talking about myself I am just re posting the stuff the people that know it tell every single time balance changes are discussed.
Madrax573 State War Academy Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.06.23 05:46:32 - [304] - Quote Why can drone ships with big bays and large bandwidth use 'up-sized' drones? What other ships (Apart from bombers) effectively use up-sized weapon systems? That is the problem. The Ishtar is built with the ability to use an unbalanced sized weapon system without any major downsides for doing so. It is inherently unbalanced and little tweaks here and there won't 'fix' it.
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 367	Posted - 2015.06.23 05:57:07 - [305] - Quote Phaade wrote: Wow, it only took you 5 years to admit that drones and Ishtars are broken. Wait for it..... Wait for it..... I ******* TOLD YOU SO. Maybe they ignored you because the mod they're nerfing isn't five years old.
Fenrir Hammer The Northern J3WS Fidelas Constans 1	Posted - 2015.06.23 06:06:27 - [306] - Quote I agree with the ishtar nerf but I really have a hard time likeing the DDA nerf. I dont think a whole weapon system wide nerf is good. Maybe tone down the DDA nerf? Maybe just nerf t2 DDA ans keep the other meta levels the same. I mean that would give a more incentive to use faction mods and who doesnt like dank kill mails.
Viruk Johnny Trans Secunda Nulli Secunda 19	Posted - 2015.06.23 06:31:45 - [307] - Quote Madrax573 wrote: Why can drone ships with big bays and large bandwidth use 'up-sized' drones? What other ships (Apart from bombers) effectively use up-sized weapon systems? That is the problem. The Ishtar is built with the ability to use an unbalanced sized weapon system without any major downsides for doing so. It is inherently unbalanced and little tweaks here and there won't 'fix' it. T3 Battlecruisers.
Maded Rift Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists 10	Posted - 2015.06.23 06:47:04 - [308] - Quote Hey guys. Just a few thoughts.... I agree with weapon size in relation to hull size arguments, but i also think that rise has a very valid point.. The good thing about sents is that they have a powerful Insta DPS application at lots of ranges, rather than waiting 20 seconds for flighted drones to reach their target. You dont want to loose this right? ok well instead of nerfing the very very slightly overpowered BS sized weapon system in BS size hulls. Have small medium and large sentry size class's Without doing the maths i feel that this would be easier to tweak for different hull size class's without the unintended side effect of nerfing everything that uses the same weapon systems. i would also like to point out, that the domi and geddon are only used most because they can apply dps and use nuets making them good vs caps and good vs most sub caps. nerfing sents or dda's will not make them go away or be used less. Try the approach of making the meta/hulls/mods that we dont use match with the stuff we do like to use you will find you get a better reception from your player base and nerfing will become a word of the past. simple: make the crappy things better not make the good things worse. Fish...That is all.
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 31941	Posted - 2015.06.23 06:49:41 - [309] - Quote apostrophe's Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
Zekora Rally Negative Density Whatever. 17	Posted - 2015.06.23 06:49:44 - [310] - Quote OMG!!! My pest has been revived!!! Nano pest fleet after this patch goes live.!!
Rat Scout Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 15	Posted - 2015.06.23 06:58:10 - [311] - Quote I personally welcome the slot layout change on the Ishtar, dare I say thank you for the buff?! Even with the DDA nerf, as of right now I don't have room for one, with this change I can bring back my dps slightly above 400 with a nice tank, thank you CCP.
Caldari 5 D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative. 419	Posted - 2015.06.23 07:16:50 - [312] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. How about something like Bandwidth Nerfs? Frigates max out at 25 Destroyers max out at 30 Cruisers max out at 50 Battlecruisers max out at 75 Battleships max out at 100 With the exception of Gallente/Amarr Bonused Hulls that max out at 25 above this, and T2 Hulls max out at 15 above this, making something like the Ishtar max out at 50+25+15 = 90, giving it a max of 3 Sentry or Heavy, 1 Medium and 1 Light in space I believe most ships already are something close to this.
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2015.06.23 07:23:59 - [313] - Quote @caldari5 An absurdely slow, low damage ship with easely killable weapons? No, that's not balance at all.
Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack 3711	Posted - 2015.06.23 07:40:01 - [314] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: @caldari5 An absurdely slow, low damage ship with easely killable weapons? No, that's not balance at all. Ishtar getting the BC treatment? Only a matter of time, though at this rate, could be a very long time. Oh god.
Caldari 5 D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative. 419	Posted - 2015.06.23 07:40:46 - [315] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: @caldari5 An absurdely slow, low damage ship with easely killable weapons? No, that's not balance at all. Don't forget that the bonused ships normally have a much Larger Drone bay to account for the weapons being killable, with a 90 bandwidth and the existing drone bay, you would have enough space for 4 and bit full flights of drones, if you survive an encounter long enough to go through ALL 4 sets of drones you probably weren't meant to win anyways lol Heck I would even support nerfing the bandwidth and buffing the drone bay size so that it could hold 5 full flights.
Bonzair The Mirage Estamos Solos Alliance. 24	Posted - 2015.06.23 08:11:05 - [316] - Quote I hope that all your creative team will be fired. Sad that it can be after dying of the project. Idiots.
To mare Advanced Technology 412	Posted - 2015.06.23 08:14:51 - [317] - Quote judging from all the people crying about this pass it seems that CCP finally hit the right spot this time
Anthar Thebess 1099	Posted - 2015.06.23 08:15:01 - [318] - Quote Drone boats will get huge nerf on this DDA nerf. Problem is in ishtar, removing med slot - NICE! Wy we cannot go different way? Instead of nerfing DDA , buff gyros/ heat sinks/ etc. Gun boats will deal more damage - all of them. More things will be dying , and we will get second important change - more logistic ships needed in a fleet , so nerf to fleet logistics. Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
Aldjor Dayman S.A.S Pandemic Legion 2	Posted - 2015.06.23 08:29:52 - [319] - Quote Just remove the sentries and make them use heavies. Boom, job done.
Adriana Shi Original Sinners The Bastion 5	Posted - 2015.06.23 08:33:44 - [320] - Quote Alexander McKeon wrote: CCP Rise wrote: This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. And every single one of those hulls gets a generic bonus applying to all drone types, EXCEPT the Ishtar. It is also notable that only the VNI & Ishtar have what could be called a 'projection' bonus, though the VNI just gets drones to you faster. Sentries on sub-battleship hulls are fine. Sentries with bonused optimal range and tracking on those hull sizes are not balanced, and you won't find that on any of the drone boats you mentioned save this one. Vexor: +50% damage & HP Myrmidon: +50% damage & HP Eos: +50% Damage & HP Tristan: +50% HP & Tracking speed (Only has bandwidth for a flight of lights, two mediums, or one heavy) VNI: +50% Drone HP/damage, +25% Max Velocity & Tracking Ishtar: +25% Sentry HP & Damage, +50% HP/Damage other drones, +37.5% Heavy Drone max velocity & tracking +25% Sentry drone optimal range & tracking speed, +25km to drone operation range. Only one of these drone ships has a bonus to damage projection (which is important for sentries) and gets a bonus to drone control range, requiring fewer fitting compromises in order to kill a target 100km away. No other ship listed here can sit at such a range from their target while making as few fitting compromises as the Ishtar to get their drones working so far away, nor has the drone bandwidth / bay to deploy three full flights of sentries. The Ishtar is uniquely able amongst sub-battleship hulls to deploy sentry drones which are effective at long engagement ranges, control them from such a range, and carry enough drones to be effective over a sustained engagement. These things are why the Ishtar is broken. Remove the sentry application bonuses, keep the sentry DPS buff at +25%, and you'll find a much more balanced hull. This Alllllll of this! imo its not Shield Tar's that are broken or fast tar's that are... its the fact it can wield 5 sents and lulz at you 100+k away that extra omni for Traits anyone? i hope you realize CCP, You're killing the shield tar pretty hard here i know Gallent isn't really supposed to be shields but its nice to have more then 1 line of shield drone boats ie Gurista's. Shield domi isn't good, Shield Myrm? LULZ Also you realize you just made another VNI with that slot change? So honestly unless you're planning on Adding more shield drone boats i think this is a bad call.
Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack 3711	Posted - 2015.06.23 08:34:12 - [321] - Quote To mare wrote: judging from all the people crying about this pass it seems that CCP finally hit the right spot this time They just nerfed everyone's ISK farming, that's all. Oh god.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1437	Posted - 2015.06.23 08:37:01 - [322] - Quote Adriana Shi wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: CCP Rise wrote: This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. And every single one of those hulls gets a generic bonus applying to all drone types, EXCEPT the Ishtar. It is also notable that only the VNI & Ishtar have what could be called a 'projection' bonus, though the VNI just gets drones to you faster. Sentries on sub-battleship hulls are fine. Sentries with bonused optimal range and tracking on those hull sizes are not balanced, and you won't find that on any of the drone boats you mentioned save this one. Vexor: +50% damage & HP Myrmidon: +50% damage & HP Eos: +50% Damage & HP Tristan: +50% HP & Tracking speed (Only has bandwidth for a flight of lights, two mediums, or one heavy) VNI: +50% Drone HP/damage, +25% Max Velocity & Tracking Ishtar: +25% Sentry HP & Damage, +50% HP/Damage other drones, +37.5% Heavy Drone max velocity & tracking +25% Sentry drone optimal range & tracking speed, +25km to drone operation range. Only one of these drone ships has a bonus to damage projection (which is important for sentries) and gets a bonus to drone control range, requiring fewer fitting compromises in order to kill a target 100km away. No other ship listed here can sit at such a range from their target while making as few fitting compromises as the Ishtar to get their drones working so far away, nor has the drone bandwidth / bay to deploy three full flights of sentries. The Ishtar is uniquely able amongst sub-battleship hulls to deploy sentry drones which are effective at long engagement ranges, control them from such a range, and carry enough drones to be effective over a sustained engagement. These things are why the Ishtar is broken. Remove the sentry application bonuses, keep the sentry DPS buff at +25%, and you'll find a much more balanced hull. This Alllllll of this! imo its not Shield Tar's that are broken or fast tar's that are... its the fact it can wield 5 sents and lulz at you 100+k away that extra omni for Traits anyone? i hope you realize CCP, You're killing the shield tar pretty hard here i know Gallent isn't really supposed to be shields but its nice to have more then 1 line of shield drone boats ie Gurista's. Shield domi isn't good, Shield Myrm? LULZ Also you realize you just made another VNI with that slot change? So honestly unless you're planning on Adding more shield drone boats i think this is a bad call. They're 100km away and hard to catch. It's a HELL of a lot easier to catch and gangbang a 1600mm ishtar than a shield one.
Hell's Hauler Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2015.06.23 08:41:04 - [323] - Quote Just shows how out of touch CCP are, and how little they know of the current meta It would be a easy fix to give the ishtar MEDIUM super bonused drones that didnt lose its offensive power, and removed the plague that is 70km away sentry **** machines But no, you have nuked EVERY drone boat now Seriously stop using a dart board to pick what to nerf and try playing your own game maybe?
Lidia Caderu Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club 42	Posted - 2015.06.23 08:44:54 - [324] - Quote Maybe you just cut bandwith to ~65mb for Ishtar. And 50mb for Vexor so each ship will use drones of its size. I mean meadium-size ships use medium drones. Large ships use large drones. Also return slots that you've taken form bandwidth and droneaby.
fox targaryen Nordwaffe 3	Posted - 2015.06.23 09:21:33 - [325] - Quote the problem isn't drones, the problem is all the drone ships have stupidly insane bonuses you're going to keep nerfing around the problem until no one uses drones whatsoever
Awkward Pi Duolus Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 97	Posted - 2015.06.23 09:27:42 - [326] - Quote Hell's Hauler wrote: Just shows how out of touch CCP are, and how little they know of the current meta It would be a easy fix to give the ishtar MEDIUM super bonused drones that didnt lose its offensive power, and removed the plague that is 70km away sentry ** machines But no, you have nuked EVERY drone boat now Seriously stop using a dart board to pick what to nerf and try playing your own game maybe? Question for you - if drone-boats are the most prolific PvP platforms at the moment, and seem a tad OP, how does nerfing the ishtar only fix that problem? Fozzie isn't Larrikin - I think he knows what he's doing in this case. Lidia Caderu wrote: Maybe you just cut bandwith to ~65mb for Ishtar. And 50mb for Vexor so each ship will use drones of its size. I mean meadium-size ships use medium drones. Large ships use large drones. Also return slots that you've taken for bandwidth and droneaby. When you have a moment to reflect after cooling down from a knee-jerk 'waaaaah', could you perhaps explain why you want to take away something that makes drone-based gameplay as fun as it is now - the fluidity with which you can switch this weapons class? Riot Girl wrote: They just nerfed everyone's ISK farming, that's all. +1 to that - afkTars are still annoying as hell to see.. Trajan Unknown wrote: From what I have seen in these sentry slugfests speed was no problem neither was tank. You simply can-¦t reach the Ishtars at all in most cases. So even a slow less tanky Ishtar would be more or less the same as the one before. You, sir, get double bingo points for hitting a double oxymoron. Neither speed nor tank is a problem because you cannot counter them? And reducing their speed or tank would be of no use because .. they would be just as uncounterable? That's just .. TEST level bad. To mare wrote:** judging from all the people crying about this pass it seems that CCP finally hit the right spot this time That's not the most reliable metric to gauge the success of a balance pass - check previous threads where things were universally considered bad (like Overview Icons) or current ones that generally seem to be badly thought out (like Fleet Warp Changes).
Manfred Sideous North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 1224	Posted - 2015.06.23 09:28:59 - [327] - Quote Dez Affinity wrote: The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing. You introduced DDAs, DPS goes up because the base damage was already somewhat balanced but applying it is still difficult with drone mwd speed, tracking and the easy killing of mobile drones. But then you introduced Omnis and suddenly sentries are doubling their range and tracking. Projection goes crazy. Double down on the change by giving a bunch of ships optimal bonuses. So you're still trying to figure out how to fix this mess while introducing tracking mods for missiles that are improving on ranges that are already balanced (if not op already on some bonused ships, barring HAM/Torps) So the Ishtar will die, once you've figured out it's not the damage but the ability to kite and project damage so much better than anything else. Then 150km Caracals, Cerbs and Ravens will be the flavour of the year you spend trying to figure out what went wrong, nerfing every mod and ship on the way down until you figure out those tracking mods were the cause. Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right? Despite the angered tone a good reasoned argument. @EveManny https://twitter.com/EveManny
Dwaigon Aumer The Bastards The Bastards. 20	Posted - 2015.06.23 09:29:22 - [328] - Quote Ishtar nerf +1 but removing sentry bonus was better Tempest bonus +1 MOAR Minmatar love please !! Minmatar FTW!!
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 751	Posted - 2015.06.23 09:42:20 - [329] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Roy Henry wrote: Why not just remove sentry bonuses from the hull instead of nerfing sentries, drones, and ishtars themselves? How much collateral damage has been caused to all other drone and sentry ships trying to fix this issue when simply removing the overpowered bonuses from the ship would have removed the sentry Ishtar in the first place? all drone boats are OP. (yeah. unpopular statement, I know). Why? Because (a) your ammo is for free. (b) you got the DPS and the range -- usually, you have either/or. (c) you're not using any highslots for your drones, giving you a full high rack PLUS another full weapon system on top of that. (d) you're bonussed for the whole range from small to X-Large targets, whereas turret or missile boats often only get bonusses for one size. Put Drone DPS, tracking & range performance being independent of the host ship's direction, velocity or range relative the target as your (a). TRANSVERSAL - WHAT'S THAT? No tracking, effectively - always working with perfection once in orbit, or if the target is actively fleeing or otherwise maneuvering to mitigate damage. Mitigate damage. LEL Omni damage Cap-less Ammo-less Require no fittings, practically Base tracking on Heavies that can hit ABing Destroyers DDAs that are out of proportion, and are OP relative to base drone attributes and the legacy 50% hitpoint/damage hull bonuses Each drone's EHP equal to whole cruisers, making their destruction a non-option most of the time Can't be TD's Can't be jammed, practically Can't be neuted Can't be damped Host ship always has full tank & full Ewar and/or tackle. What's not to like. Drone Cruisers Online - After the Ishtar, Gila will take the torch and VNI will still do 700 DPS at Battleship ranges. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1438	Posted - 2015.06.23 09:45:38 - [330] - Quote I wouldn't be so sure. Those missile mods are going to do extremely bad things to the meta.
Kane Carnifex Yard Evolution The Kadeshi 37	Posted - 2015.06.23 09:46:15 - [331] - Quote I wouldn-¦t nerf all drone boats... i would nerf the ishtar I am not able to see the big picture behind the drone nerf.... http://vesuvi.de - EVE & Food Porn in German...
Maxwell Smiles Exiled Kings The Fearless Empire 9	Posted - 2015.06.23 09:52:15 - [332] - Quote Great Changes, Love them +1, but can we stop changing the ishtar, kinda getting bored refitting them every 6 weeks How about changing the drone link augmenter as well Half the CPU usage and half the bonus provided by them so u need twice as many to get the same range, using up some of the utility highs that people complain about. It would also make it easier to fit onto smaller ships like destroyers etc that may want to use them but cant.
Neok1337 MASS A DEATH Mordus Angels 1	Posted - 2015.06.23 09:56:18 - [333] - Quote Someone posted on the first page and said about the ability to detach dps when you drop dentrys. But how about if insted of dropping them they just set up a fixed orbit around the ship. Then there would be less droping sentrys and kiteing away, then sentrys wouldnt have to be nerfed too much crippling their use in other ships.
wopolusa Dire Circumstances 15	Posted - 2015.06.23 10:24:52 - [334] - Quote Hell's Hauler wrote: Just shows how out of touch CCP are, and how little they know of the current meta It would be a easy fix to give the ishtar MEDIUM super bonused drones that didnt lose its offensive power, and removed the plague that is 70km away sentry **** machines But no, you have nuked EVERY drone boat now Seriously stop using a dart board to pick what to nerf and try playing your own game maybe? You mean... providing the data showing that top damage dealers of virtually every sub-capital class are drone boats and then dropping 1-3% off the DDA damage multiplier is 'nuked'. Is your only knowledge of 'nukes' based on korea or??
UCara Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance 1	Posted - 2015.06.23 10:45:05 - [335] - Quote Oh My Lord!!! Stop being stupid ccp, ishtars are not being used that much already, just nerf sentry bonus from it, stop screwing with the ship, why don't you rebalance the other HACs instead, GIVE instead of TAKING... Game stability is soo good you put so much effort in nerfing stuff...
Gary Goat XDC-UK 50	Posted - 2015.06.23 10:53:37 - [336] - Quote The problem with sentry drones is that they allow cruiser size ships to project damage out to ranges that no other cruiser sized hull can match. Couple that with the ability to detach from your main DPS source and it makes smaller, mobile ships like the ishtar insanly powerful. How about having sentry drones use cap from their parent ship to maintain DPS/Range? There would essentially be two modes the drones can operate in. Cap Mode: Exactly the same as current sentry drones but nos the parent ship to power themselves. Nos range limited to 10km. Cap use similar to medium turrets. (i'm talking old nos mechanics here, they keep draining cap) Capless mode: Damage/range penalty. The drones switch to this mode if the parent ship moves out of range or runs out of cap.
Kendarr Zebra Corp The Bastion 48	Posted - 2015.06.23 11:16:57 - [337] - Quote Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. Edit: for the sake of completeness regarding weapon size vs. hull size, I'll note that ABCs were specifically designed with design sacrifices (notably tank) in mind to compensate for their oversized guns, which i find a reasonable exception. Those hulls are balanced and have their uses, but do not distrort the meta to the point you're either flying Ishtars, or flying a fleet designed to counter Ishtars. That is a very fair summary. I agree with this dude. The Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. I know its easy when you see these changes to be like OMFG BBQ THESE CHANGES ARE STUPID, people should really try to give a little more constructive feedback. sure, you do not like these changes but how would you suggest tackling the wack an ishtar problem? Zebra-Corp
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn Department 10 239	Posted - 2015.06.23 11:17:50 - [338] - Quote Nice to see you might be doing something to increase use of battlecruisers & battleships. BUT you are still not listening to the majority and making the correct decision regarding the Ishtar and it's usage in PvP. Please can you stop making changes which are affecting other ships where there is not a significant problem. Just remove sentry drone use from the Ishtar and not make the current listed changes to the Ishtar which you are announcing here. " They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. "-áRick. " Find out what ? "-áAbraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. "-áRick. Season four.-á-á ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Motorbit HildCo Interplanetar Villore Accords 45	Posted - 2015.06.23 11:24:02 - [339] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. from my perspective the damage bonus for undersized weapons make drone boats annoying. usually larger ships can either be fitted to be strong against smaller ships or ships of their own size, but not both. drone ships dont have this drawback and so they are very hard to counter. note: im doing mostly small gang and solo stuff in lowsec. im not realy interested in large fleet fights or capital ship engagements, so i cant realy say anything about this oversized weapons argument. however, i would rather see the holy cow drone flexibility slaugthered then all drone damage nerfed to death untill all drone ships are useless. as an excample i think nerfing the ishkur currently is a realy bad idea, especially as assault frigates currently are very unattractive.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn Department 10 239	Posted - 2015.06.23 11:26:09 - [340] - Quote The proposed drop in DDA performance isn't too bad I suppose but it isn't actually needed as there isn't much of a problem with PvE drone boats like the Obelisk. I did notice after the change to sentry drones before this that the Garde II isn't that good now so I would rather you fix the Ishtar by removing Sentry use from it than downgrade usage of other ships with sweeping changes. Can CCP Rise please give his reasoning for not removing sentry drone bonuses or sentry drone use from the Ishtar please " They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. "-áRick. " Find out what ? "-áAbraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. "-áRick. Season four.-á-á ' The Walking Dead. ' .
To mare Advanced Technology 412	Posted - 2015.06.23 11:41:04 - [341] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Drone boats will get huge nerf on this DDA nerf. Problem is in ishtar, removing med slot - NICE! the difference in dps wont be that huge. and most of the ships who use drones where popular even before we had DDA so they will still be popular after this minor drop in dps but i agree w you the main problem is the ishtar so they should have just nerfed the ship not the mods Anthar Thebess wrote: Wy we cannot go different way? Instead of nerfing DDA , buff gyros/ heat sinks/ etc. because of power creep
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2925	Posted - 2015.06.23 11:41:52 - [342] - Quote For those who cry the Ishtar should just be a medium drone ship, 5 Hammerhead IIs on a 50% bonused ship will only out DPS high damage heavy missiles on a 5% bonused ship. Every other weapon system using 5 units with a 5% damage bonus will out damage 5 Hammerhead IIs which get a 50% damage bonus. Edit: Used a Gnosis as the testing ship, and remember Hammerheads are high damage drones so use the appropriate charges if you want to see the exact numbers. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Valkin Mordirc 1143	Posted - 2015.06.23 11:42:36 - [343] - Quote Quote: And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes. So does this mean we won't get the battlecruiser rebalance till next month? =( =( =( `#DeleteTheWeak`
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1439	Posted - 2015.06.23 11:43:14 - [344] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: For those who cry the Ishtar should just be a medium drone ship, 5 Hammerhead IIs on a 50% bonused ship will only out DPS high damage heavy missiles on a 5% bonused ship. Every other weapon system using 5 units with a 5% damage bonus will out damage 5 Hammerhead IIs which get a 50% damage bonus. On paper, not so much in reality. There is also the matter the drone ship can fit guns. That many do not is not due to fitting compromises so much as the fact they don't even need to.
clipper shore Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 5	Posted - 2015.06.23 11:45:47 - [345] - Quote don't see the point of the tempest change if it still gets to the fight 1/2 hour after its over
Blavish BOVRIL bOREers Mining CO-OP Brave Collective 3	Posted - 2015.06.23 11:49:06 - [346] - Quote This change is not good for carriers. Carriers become more useless. What is up with that? Nerfing ishtars is ok but why nerf carriers in the process?
Augustus Risalo Vulcans Forge 0	Posted - 2015.06.23 12:01:43 - [347] - Quote The DDA change is pretty insignificant, it's not like they cut the % in half... Nice to see the Tempest get some love!
Lidia Caderu Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club 42	Posted - 2015.06.23 12:04:26 - [348] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: For those who cry the Ishtar should just be a medium drone ship, 5 Hammerhead IIs on a 50% bonused ship will only out DPS high damage heavy missiles on a 5% bonused ship. Every other weapon system using 5 units with a 5% damage bonus will out damage 5 Hammerhead IIs which get a 50% damage bonus. Edit: Used a Gnosis as the testing ship, and remember Hammerheads are high damage drones so use the appropriate charges if you want to see the exact numbers. Use guns. Ishat may use 4 guns and a bonus for them. It will have even higher DPS than currently. So its possible to give 2 bonuses for drones and 2 for guns.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1439	Posted - 2015.06.23 12:08:22 - [349] - Quote Lidia Caderu wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: For those who cry the Ishtar should just be a medium drone ship, 5 Hammerhead IIs on a 50% bonused ship will only out DPS high damage heavy missiles on a 5% bonused ship. Every other weapon system using 5 units with a 5% damage bonus will out damage 5 Hammerhead IIs which get a 50% damage bonus. Edit: Used a Gnosis as the testing ship, and remember Hammerheads are high damage drones so use the appropriate charges if you want to see the exact numbers. Use guns. Ishat may use 4 guns and a bonus for them. It will have even higher DPS than currently. So its possible to give 2 bonuses for drones and 2 for guns. Ishtar hasn't had bonused guns for the last two years there chief
Tara Read Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 860	Posted - 2015.06.23 12:25:59 - [350] - Quote I eagerly await Fozzie's Super "rebalance" along with these further damage reductions so I can finally "kite" with a 40 billion isk squad boosting paperweight that can't jump anywhere, can't damge anything, but will have several 35 USD "official skins" yet no defined purpose so I never log it in yet pay 15 USD a month for a virtual space penile extension.... Just kill off Supers and Titans so a majority of us can move on to another game. Because kiting frigates and not being able to warp to someone are such fing brilliant innovations conjured up by the brilliant Manfred Sidious. Guess I should have bought a Moracha instead of an Avatar, two combats toons and a Hel. Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at http://hoistthecolors.org
erg cz ErgoDron 294	Posted - 2015.06.23 12:29:37 - [351] - Quote Augustus Risalo wrote: The DDA change is pretty insignificant, it's not like they cut the % in half... They do, actually. Dominix as PvE power horse got nerfed beacuse of PvP ship. Small nerf for ships with small numbers of DDA, but I have 5 of those fitted on my Dominix... IT IS A 10 % DPS NERF FOR ME !!! GRRR !!!
Augustus Risalo Vulcans Forge 0	Posted - 2015.06.23 12:48:20 - [352] - Quote erg cz wrote: Augustus Risalo wrote: The DDA change is pretty insignificant, it's not like they cut the % in half... They do, actually. Dominix as PvE power horse got nerfed beacuse of PvP ship. Small nerf for ships with small numbers of DDA, but I have 5 of those fitted on my Dominix... IT IS A 10 % DPS NERF FOR ME !!! GRRR !!! So if you were doing 1000 DPS before, now it's 900 DPS, I don't think that is going to stop you from melting faces in missions.
Augustus Risalo Vulcans Forge 0	Posted - 2015.06.23 12:50:41 - [353] - Quote Tara Read wrote: not being able to warp to someone You can still warp to fleet members...?
McChicken Combo HalfMayo The Happy Meal 813	Posted - 2015.06.23 12:51:59 - [354] - Quote The problem is not just the Ishtar. The claim that CCP are breaking other drone boats with these changes is a bit odd. How do you break that which is already broken? http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png The solution I have in mind is a bit radical. Remove drone bonuses from hulls and delete drone buffing modules. Rebalance current drone bonused hulls to compensate. Drones change from a primary weapon system to supplementary assistance providing additional DPS or EWAR. There are all our dominion Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1939	Posted - 2015.06.23 12:58:25 - [355] - Quote MAH ISK TICKS!!!!!
Anthar Thebess 1105	Posted - 2015.06.23 12:59:08 - [356] - Quote To mare wrote: Anthar Thebess wrote: Drone boats will get huge nerf on this DDA nerf. Problem is in ishtar, removing med slot - NICE! the difference in dps wont be that huge. It is not about dps change but about removing med slot , so shield ishar will be very impacted. Armor version just got buffed , but this is good trade off - as the shield one was very nasty , mostly because of the mobility of shield doctrine ( including logistics and all support ships) Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
Lidia Caderu Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club 42	Posted - 2015.06.23 13:00:36 - [357] - Quote afkalt wrote: Ishtar hasn't had bonused guns for the last two years there chief So what? I dont any reasons of not giving it to Ishtar.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1439	Posted - 2015.06.23 13:05:18 - [358] - Quote Oh sorry, I didnt read that like a suggestion as much as the state of affairs today. It used to have that setup you see
Numen Anomalie Bastards Of Anarchy System Inc. Drop the Hammer 10	Posted - 2015.06.23 13:10:13 - [359] - Quote As a drone enthousiast, i am obviously not happy with this. That said. I see WHY you guys THINk it needs a nerf, but what you guys are doing is not fair. Listing all the PRO's and saying It's OP is not really how it works, now is it. There are MANY downsides to using drones (not ishtars, drones, which is what you are nerfing here. NOT ishtars, drones): 1. Sentry drones and non static drones are different. 2. there are TONS of downsides: There is travel time. The ability to kite them. they can (rather easily) be shot down. One has to pick them up, or leave them behind. they can be smartbombed, stealth bombed, or simply killed fast with a (few) frigates. Totally ruining your dps. There are more tactical disadvantages to using drones vs missiles or arty and guns, but those left besides, i think every weapon system should be able to dish out the same amount of dps in the end, when applied optimally to its optimal target. The thing that i read a lot up here is: they (drones, people actually mean sentry's, that are already nerfed) deal a ton of DPS at 60km + range. Yes, in order to do so, however, one needs to take at least 2 or 3 DDA's, slap the rest of the mids OR the lows with drone computers, use a sensor booster for higher ranges and sacrifice high slots that use up TONS of CPU for the range mods. This leave a ship with BARELY a tank, LOW amount of utility mods and a sig radius of a station because of the shields, or they are slow with barely any medium utility mods in the mid slots. It is simply a sniper boat that does dps at that point. granted, it does that well, but there are tons of other ships that do the same, with having more tank, speed, or combat utility slots. I think the DRONE nerf here is out of place, the ISHTAR nerf: well, just because everybody uses it, does not mean you truely understand WHY. EASE OF USE is why i think ishtars are so popular. MOST people have their drone skills up high ANYWAY and thats why you see their game-wide damage out put to be so nice. (most people i know have 1 weapon system + drones on good skills). That means, the problem is in general popularity of drone boats, making the ishtar (cruisers are fast and high damage) the logical choice for many fleets. Plus assigning drones gets better alpha, agreed again. Not really that their damage is too high, it is just ease of use that is the problem again. Nerfing these ships will not solve the problem. The result will be: people will keep using the ship untill you nerf it too much and then it gets COMPLETELY dropped. Thats how eve works anyway. Some things are just more popular and sheep follow the sheppard.
ivona fly Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 8	Posted - 2015.06.23 13:15:36 - [360] - Quote Roy Henry wrote: Why not just remove sentry bonuses from the hull instead of nerfing sentries, drones, and ishtars themselves? How much collateral damage has been caused to all other drone and sentry ships trying to fix this issue when simply removing the overpowered bonuses from the ship would have removed the sentry Ishtar in the first place? +1 So the bring the ishtar inline you have already nerfed the rattlesnake TWICE for exmaple and that ship is not in your list as being oppressive? (Nerfed sentries, Nerfed DDAs) IMHO balacing a ship by nerfing it's weapon system is not good the same happened to condor it got indirectly ROFL stomped because the crow was considered OP, and now it does like 40dps and cant break passive tanked frigates. I heard the drake killed heavy missiles somehow too, but I dont think i was playing then to see the tears / details Also If you are going to further nerf the "drone damage amplifier 1" can we get a meta module that does say 18% damage like a meta 4 heat sink/gyrostab/magstab. I like that you doing something about the ishtar though and balancing must be hard but i think DDAs are balanced at the moment.
Khan Wrenth Hedion University Amarr Empire 172	Posted - 2015.06.23 13:21:01 - [361] - Quote I want to say something positive, because I certainly have not always been pleasant on this topic. These changes seem very reasonable, and I'm happy to see CCP addressing this. I would have done things slightly differently, however. I would have nerfed the DDA's some more, but also balanced it with enhanced drone damage bonuses to select hulls that need it. People here have made a good case for the Armageddon and a few other hulls that really didn't deserve such a harsh nerf. Really though, I must reiterate my stance that sentry drones need to be removed from the game entirely, or rebalanced as a whole. The reason being that sentry drones enjoy almost every single advantage from every other weapon system in the game. The whole thing with advantages and disadvantages to every platform? Doesn't apply to sentries. The only downside they really have is that you can destroy them - a trait common to all drones. However, it is a meaningless assertion since if you could apply meaningful damage at that range there wouldn't be an imbalance issue in the first place. Pilots would already be knocking sentries out of the sky left and right if they could apply meaningful damage at that range. Do people destroy sentries? Yes, but feels like it is an exception rather than the rule. The only downside to a weapon platform shouldn't be a niche scenario. I think that after this balance pass, you've already done a great thing to balance drone platforms. I would add two things. 1: Make sentries paper thin. One or two shots from a medium railgun should destroy them. Give them 500 structure HP, so no resistances, and leave it at just that. Then the whole "destroyable weapon platform" thing becomes a real problem instead of a theoretical one (regular drones are already quite destroyable since they have to move to within attacking distance of their targets). Second, make sentry drones use capacitor from the trigger ship to fire. My initial idea would be 12 cap per sentry per shot. Since they refire every four seconds, that averages out to 3 unit per second per sentry, or 15 units of cap to keep a set of sentries firing. That makes firing sentries take more cap than medium rails, slightly less than medium beams (called heavy beams for some reason, but that's not my style, I'mma call them medium beams 'cause I'm a rebel) fitted on a Zealot, but the tradeoff is that you still get a vastly superior weapon system. Sentries still hit out farther than either weapon system and do more damage than either weapon system, are still EWAR immune, and you still have room for plenty of replacements if they get destroyed. OR Double sentry drone size and bandwidth to 50, and give select hulls like the Armageddon and Rattlesnake a role bonus that cuts it in half. BOOM! Much easier way to balance sentries. (Also this may sound odd considering what I just said, but I really don't think that there should be as large a disparity in sentry optimal ranges. Maybe flatten it out a bit so all drones start between 40-60k?) Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
ivona fly Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 8	Posted - 2015.06.23 13:39:37 - [362] - Quote McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote: The problem is not just the Ishtar. The claim that CCP are breaking other drone boats with these changes is a bit odd. How do you break that which is already broken? http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png The solution I have in mind is a bit radical. Remove drone bonuses from hulls and delete drone buffing modules. Rebalance current drone bonused hulls to compensate. Drones change from a primary weapon system to supplementary assistance providing additional DPS or EWAR. I think another guy made the point earlier but something that gets lost in the numbers and stats is that of ease of use... pretty much every pilot can use drones because 2 out of four races use them as primary dps on some of their hulls, and nearly ever hull in the game bigger than a frigate has a drone bay, end result nearly every pilot can use drone ships well. That has to skew the stats? if nearly everyone in your corp can use drone ships they are an easy doctrine to use. I often hear people say i can't use t2 medium lasers any other hardpoint based weapon, but never hear them say can't use warriors etc if anything they may not be able to use t2 sentries or Heavies...
Faltzs Thundercats The Initiative. 18	Posted - 2015.06.23 13:41:59 - [363] - Quote DDA change is ok imo, tempest one is kind of pointless its not damage that holds the pest back. Ss for the ishtar as i say in every time in one of these threads I would give it the following roles: 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 20% to range of Heavy Drones and Heavy Armor Maintence bots 50% to Repair amount and HP of Armor Maintence bots Im sure the smart people will work out all teh fun things you could do with this while not being OP.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1439	Posted - 2015.06.23 13:45:50 - [364] - Quote Just for lulz. Give ishtars a stupid bonus to drone shield recharge rate such that they're hilariously hard to kill and need to be alpha'd and not worn down by smarties.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 752	Posted - 2015.06.23 13:55:35 - [365] - Quote UCara wrote: Oh My Lord!!! Stop being stupid ccp, ishtars are not being used that much already, just nerf sentry bonus from it, stop screwing with the ship, why don't you rebalance the other HACs instead, GIVE instead of TAKING... Game stability is soo good you put so much effort in nerfing stuff... http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-odyssey-1.1 Quote: ISHTAR: Gallente Cruiser Bonuses: 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage). 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage. Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses: 5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level. 7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity). Rebalance - rebalance happened. Best balanace in decadesGäó. Only the point that one, that's one uno, 1, one, just one, simply one, HAC was able to push over 650 DPS out to Battleship ranges for two years straight isn't mentioned. Best balance - best gaem ivona fly wrote: McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote: The problem is not just the Ishtar. The claim that CCP are breaking other drone boats with these changes is a bit odd. How do you break that which is already broken? http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png The solution I have in mind is a bit radical. Remove drone bonuses from hulls and delete drone buffing modules. Rebalance current drone bonused hulls to compensate. Drones change from a primary weapon system to supplementary assistance providing additional DPS or EWAR. I think another guy made the point earlier but something that gets lost in the numbers and stats is that of ease of use... pretty much every pilot can use drones because 2 out of four races use them as primary dps on some of their hulls, and nearly ever hull in the game bigger than a frigate has a drone bay, end result nearly every pilot can use drone ships well. That has to skew the stats? if nearly everyone in your corp can use drone ships they are an easy doctrine to use. I often hear people say i can't use t2 medium lasers any other hardpoint based weapon, but never hear them say can't use warriors etc if anything they may not be able to use t2 sentries or Heavies... That is a rather obvious and widely acknowledged point. Homework for you: How many drones can the Zealot field, and how much of the total damage potential of non-drone cruiser & battlecruiser platforms is taken up by drones. Battleships - it is a given with their high bandwidth and drone bays. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 752	Posted - 2015.06.23 14:04:47 - [366] - Quote Doablepoast // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Lidia Caderu Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club 42	Posted - 2015.06.23 14:11:53 - [367] - Quote Just rered changes in Odyssey, still do not understand ******** shield boost bonus for Vagabond. lol
Ghaustyl Kathix Quantum Singularities Half Massed 57	Posted - 2015.06.23 14:11:58 - [368] - Quote I don't think this'll solve the Ishtar problem as CCP sees it. It'll make them tougher to shield-tank, but they'll still kite around and drop more sentries. If you want to solve the problem, switch the bonuses from the Eos and the Ishtar to make the Eos the sentry-bonused boat.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 753	Posted - 2015.06.23 14:28:55 - [369] - Quote Lidia Caderu wrote: Just rered changes in Odyssey, still do not understand ******** shield boost bonus for Vagabond. lol VARIETY! Kill variety in one aspect, introduce it in another, albeit dis-proportionally. Them admitting that double drone bonuses were a blunder would be the best thing ever on this whole Ishtar debacle. Gÿ£a++a¦ê+ä-£a¦êGÿ£a++ // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Tara Read Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 860	Posted - 2015.06.23 14:30:00 - [370] - Quote Augustus Risalo wrote: Tara Read wrote: not being able to warp to someone You can still warp to fleet members...? In CCP's brilliance to make the game difficult (aka more bothersome and annoying) they'll probably do away with warping all together. Instead we'll have to buy a third party extention that plugs in via USB cable where we peddle our ships closer to our enemies like some Flintstone abomination for sake of immersion. Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at http://hoistthecolors.org
Taru Audeles Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 35	Posted - 2015.06.23 14:31:14 - [371] - Quote You guys make more friends everyday. Icons, Fleet Warps, Trasher and now this? When do you stop calling EVE a Sandbox and call it your own personal playground for how to **** of the community and drive your paying customer away. Look at the logged in numbers you might notice something there.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 753	Posted - 2015.06.23 14:35:01 - [372] - Quote I guess you haven't been playing EVE long then. People were threatening to burn down the office when damage mod stacking penalty was introduced, breaking the 8-Heatsink Armageddon in 2005 during RMR IIRC. Don't try to lump the broken drones & Ishtar with the rest. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Styphon the Black Forced Euthanasia Soviet-Union 31	Posted - 2015.06.23 14:47:57 - [373] - Quote Regardless of the Ishtar or an specific ship. I think reducing the DDA is NOT the correct way to fix the problem. I don't hear about how all those Arbitrator fleets were really terror. I mean come on... Prophecies were never considered "OP" and pretty much any Amarr droneboat isn't considered to have too much DPS. Attacking drones and DDA doesn't fix the issue. The problem is not with drones or its mods. The problem is with specific platforms. You need to address each ship individually instead of trying to do it with a wide brush stroke. This is the 3rd hit to drone users in a row from CCP nerf hammer, enough is enough. Get it right CCP.
Arkanon Nerevar UK Corp RAZOR Alliance 29	Posted - 2015.06.23 14:52:10 - [374] - Quote IMO the DDA nerf should be dropped, a nerf for the ishtar shouldnt affect everything else, remember what happened with the nerf to HMLs due to the prevalence of HML tengus, HMLs became a joke weapon system, you should fine tune individual ships, not just penalise everything. Trust Not in God, but Have Faith in Antimatter
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1439	Posted - 2015.06.23 14:53:30 - [375] - Quote But mine is the only chart which actually breaks weapon type vs hull down remotely precisely. The assumptions in your chart are not safe. It assumes that each stack colour means the same thing per ship class. Which makes sense for readability but not a lot of sense when one looks deeper. Take carriers vs battleships vs dictors, for example. What the hell is that yellow they all share?
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 753	Posted - 2015.06.23 15:12:40 - [376] - Quote The carriers are actually Orange - fighters most likely. The Yellow is projectiles. Try again. That Light blue blob covering 70% of total HAC damage done belongs to Battleships by birthright - See Odyssey 1.1. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Zack1023 Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance 6	Posted - 2015.06.23 15:18:42 - [377] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. Limiting drones to a certain ship is not a fix and will create more problems than necessary. The ishtar might still be viable and a shield boat. Idk If you fly them smart enough maybe. While this does hurt it it's not enough. @ccp rise my question to you is that sentries are a BS size weapon. So why does the Ishtar have a drone bay that rivals all but 2 battleships? Only the dominix and Armageddon can match. The ability for the Ishtar to have 3 full sets of sentries is the root of the problem in my opinion. Not the fact is has damage and tracking bonuses. Cutting the drone bay in half or some other smaller percent will increase the risk when using ishtars in large fleet engagements, but will keep them as ratting and small gang pvp viable.
Skyler Hawk Boars on Parade The Tuskers Co. 38	Posted - 2015.06.23 15:19:56 - [378] - Quote Tara Read wrote: Augustus Risalo wrote: Tara Read wrote: not being able to warp to someone You can still warp to fleet members...? In CCP's brilliance to make the game difficult (aka more bothersome and annoying) they'll probably do away with warping all together. Instead we'll have to buy a third party extention that plugs in via USB cable where we peddle our ships closer to our enemies like some Flintstone abomination for sake of immersion. forcing eve nerds to get some exercise while flying their spaceships sounds like an excellent idea tbh
Seven Koskanaiken FinFleet Northern Coalition. 1560	Posted - 2015.06.23 15:28:15 - [379] - Quote Suitonia wrote: CCP Fozzie - 5:47PM : PVP damage per month leader per class: T1 Frigate - Tristan, Pirate Frigate - Worm, T1 Cruiser - Vexor, Navy Cruiser - VNI, Pirate Cruiser - Gila, T2 Cruiser - Ishtar, T1 Battleship - Dominix http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png I like how a bunch of classes are left out on that. There are drone boats in the T3 Cruiser, T1 BC, Command Ship, and Pirate BS classes. Some of them can even field...sentries. Evidently it's not beyond the wit of man to make a drone hull that's not completely OP. Maybe because you don't see Myrms and Rattlesnakes kiting around like butterflies, or drone Prots tracking ceptors... Also not like there's much competition in the classes that are mentioned. Navy cruisers, T1 BS...
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 753	Posted - 2015.06.23 15:31:44 - [380] - Quote That's because drone bandwidth of the classes unmentioned is in line with the fact of DDAs & base drone stats. // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] // [Cruisers Online]
Tara Read Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 862	Posted - 2015.06.23 15:39:40 - [381] - Quote Skyler Hawk wrote: Tara Read wrote: Augustus Risalo wrote: Tara Read wrote: not being able to warp to someone You can still warp to fleet members...? In CCP's brilliance to make the game difficult (aka more bothersome and annoying) they'll probably do away with warping all together. Instead we'll have to buy a third party extention that plugs in via USB cable where we peddle our ships closer to our enemies like some Flintstone abomination for sake of immersion. forcing eve nerds to get some exercise while flying their spaceships sounds like an excellent idea tbh Can you imagine a bunch of PL neckbeards huffing and puffing trying to move their precious Aeons from gate to gate? Why next you'll be suggesting for them to shower, go outside and socialize outside of Fail Heap, and dare try to tackle the most elusive prey of all for them: a female with a pulse. Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at http://hoistthecolors.org
Oddsodz The Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare. A Band Apart. 155	Posted - 2015.06.23 15:42:07 - [382] - Quote Am I the only one that sees this a a possible BUFF to the Ishtar? You take one slot away from the mid and but it in the low? Oh great. Now let me type out this long post about why this is a buff. The main issue as I see it (and I am sure some here will not agree with me) is that in the null sec blob wars. The main thing is that the Ishtar is just too dam hard to kill due to kite tactics. Biggest culprit is the fact that it can sig tank so well. Now take away that dam off grid booster and then see how good the Ishtar is. Right now. If you try to kill an Ishtar it just giggles at you as all your damage just does not hit the thing in the 1st place. So by taken away a mid slot that would in most cases have a resist or shield extender in it is not going to do that much as most damage that is thrown at an Ishtar misses anyway (even more so if you don't have that extra shield extender blooming up your sig now). So now we have an extra low slot. Lets just put a extra DDA or drone tracking enhancer in that low. Now the drones hit even harder or track even more than before. This in turn makes the nerf to the DDA at the start a full on waste of time as it hurts all the rest of the drone ship lineups but not the intended target that is the Ishtar. Sentry drones are not the issue. Off Gird Boosting is the issue. Take the dam off grid boosts away and then you will be able to hit and kill an Ishtar.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 753	Posted - 2015.06.23 15:46:14 - [383] - Quote Oddsodz is right in part. The fact that Ishtar still won't be competing with other HACs due to the weapons system will be ignored for as long as possible by CCP. // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] // [Cruisers Online]
Seven Koskanaiken FinFleet Northern Coalition. 1560	Posted - 2015.06.23 15:49:13 - [384] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: That's because drone bandwidth of the classes unmentioned is in line with the fact of DDAs & base drone stats. Rattlesnake should be "third", or first, regardless, and Napos or TFIs in the lead for Faction Battleships. Sure. Not that anyone can tell that from that useless, incomplete "data".
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 753	Posted - 2015.06.23 15:50:37 - [385] - Quote What's your point exactly? Data is irrelevant if it doesn't meet your viewpoint apparently. Someone escort the Facts out of the Courtroom, please. // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] // [Cruisers Online]
Seven Koskanaiken FinFleet Northern Coalition. 1560	Posted - 2015.06.23 15:52:42 - [386] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: What's your point exactly? Data is irrelevant if it doesn't meet your viewpoint apparently. Someone escort the Facts out of the Courtroom, please. Well if you're releasing something about "PVP damage per month leader per class" then yea, you need to use all the classes. This is not a "viewpoint", this is Statistics 101.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 753	Posted - 2015.06.23 15:57:12 - [387] - Quote You ignored the fact that all of the other classes are balanced with Drone Bandwidth. The VEXOR, VNI, ISHTAR - Or the VEXOR line isn't. No one could see 1k DPS Tech 1 Cruisers being broken. No one. No one could see 850 DPS, 110k EHP, 2.2 km/s Tech 1 Pirate cruisers being Top 1. No one. Point taken? The fact that Domi & Armageddon are both in the lead tells you everything you need to know about DDAs. There's only two ways out of this shebang: Fix DDA or Fix the Legacy 50% hull Hitpoint/Damage bonuses, because the base drone attributes are out of whack. // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] // [Cruisers Online]
Seven Koskanaiken FinFleet Northern Coalition. 1560	Posted - 2015.06.23 16:00:48 - [388] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: You ignored the fact that all of the other classes are balanced with Drone Bandwidth. The VEXOR, VNI, ISHTAR - Or the VEXOR line isn't. No one could see 1k DPS Tech 1 Cruisers being broken. No one. No one could see 850 DPS, 110k EHP, 2.2 km/s Tech 1 Pirate cruisers being Top 1. No one. Point taken? The fact that Domi & Armageddon are both in the lead tells you everything you need to know about DDAs. I'm not ignoring it. In fact, that's exactly the sort of conclusion you come to when all data is considered. When it isn't you get things like "OMG DELETE SENTRIES". I mean, I'm largely agreeing with you, so like, maybe wind ya neck in and get some sun, or something...
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 753	Posted - 2015.06.23 16:03:54 - [389] - Quote You never know who's who nowadays, Always dron mafia lurking around. Pirate battleships weren't included because most likely Rattlesnake is No 1 and Commandships along with T3 and Recon have less bandwidth than that bloated Vexor cruiser family. Thanks to people in the North for making a Dread Come True for every pilot. GÖÑ Special thanks also goes out to our Minmatar Bretheren for 330 mi TFIs, but that is off topic. // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] // [Cruisers Online]
Leoric Firesword Rolling Static Gone Critical 134	Posted - 2015.06.23 16:23:41 - [390] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. So wait, let me get this right, you don't see the issue with BS weapons on a cruiser hull? Let's break out Tach's for the Maller then! I agree with the DDA nerf. I don't agree with sentries on Vexors/VNI/Myrm/Eos/Ishtar/Stratios/etc Read that again, I don't agree with SENTRIES on those hulls, and I fly those hulls quite a bit (minus the eos/ishtar...noob and all) I'm not saying we lock them into using drones for their size, but there should be a drawback for going bigger. Currently for sentries there isn't one. Heavy drones are slower and track more poorly than mediums, and mediums are the same when compared to small. The fact that sentries don't move isn't an issue, cause well, lets be honest if you and 30 of your friends are all in Ishtars or whatever you're going to be in optimal and have low traversal against at least one group of those drones, where if they were flying heavies the drones would (most likely) have an issue catching/tracking you (omg balance!). Also, I'd like to point out there's a reason that drones are the only weapon system that you've limited to T1 in the Alliance Tournament...just sayin.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 43	Posted - 2015.06.23 16:33:46 - [391] - Quote Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote: Torei Dutalis wrote: I also always worry about changes that effect an entire weapon class, although in this case I do think that the DDA tweak here is within reason. As you stated, there's definitely good reason for the entire drone class to be nerfed: Drone boats do the most damage across all classes of ships. The text use for the link is misleading as not all ship classes are dominated by drones. Here are the ones not dominated: T2, Navy Frigates; T1, T2, T3 Destroyers; T3 Cruisers; T1, T2, Navy Battler cruisers; T2, & Navy Battleships. Are drones strong and dominant? Yes. But exaggerating the facts makes you look like you are hiding things or have a hidden agenda.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2926	Posted - 2015.06.23 16:54:05 - [392] - Quote You could always make Sentries "not a drone" similar to how fighters and fighter bombers used to be not drones. Then anything that doesn't specifically state that it benefits Sentries then it doesn't. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 357	Posted - 2015.06.23 17:06:07 - [393] - Quote Oddsodz wrote: So by taken away a mid slot that would in most cases have a resist or shield extender in it is not going to do that much as most damage that is thrown at an Ishtar misses anyway (even more so if you don't have that extra shield extender blooming up your sig now). So now we have an extra low slot. Lets just put a extra DDA or drone tracking enhancer in that low. Now the drones hit even harder or track even more than before. I'd say put in another Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer, but yeah, with drone ranges as far as they are, and then 120-140 km drone control range... yeah, I don't think this is going to slow down the ishtars much.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1443	Posted - 2015.06.23 17:32:38 - [394] - Quote You still can't use that chart, I'm sorry. It's too little data, not enough legend. For a start, structures are probably in there so that's massive skew off the bat. No better thing than drones for that. It amounts to a picture and saying 'see, the math shows this'
God's Apples Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 619	Posted - 2015.06.23 18:34:53 - [395] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote: Torei Dutalis wrote: I also always worry about changes that effect an entire weapon class, although in this case I do think that the DDA tweak here is within reason. As you stated, there's definitely good reason for the entire drone class to be nerfed: Drone boats do the most damage across all classes of ships. The text use for the link is misleading as not all ship classes are dominated by drones. Here are the ones not dominated: T2, Navy Frigates; T1, T2, T3 Destroyers; T3 Cruisers; T1, T2, Navy Battler cruisers; T2, & Navy Battleships. Are drones strong and dominant in many classes? Yes. But exaggerating the facts makes you look like you are hiding things or have a hidden agenda. Edit: I have no issue with the DDA change, but I don't like exaggeration because it can cause others to join in mob mentality with false information. That's because there are no drone boats in those classes. Are you actually that stupid? The only t2 frig that is a "drone boat" is the ishkur but it doesn't even have a bonus to drones so you can't count it. There is no drone navy frig. The comet is the only navy frig capable of using drones and tbh it probably is the most popular navy frig anyway so you're still wrong. In t1 dessies the catalyst and thrasher only outdamage the algos because of the prevalence of suicide ganking. In real combat I'd wager the algos has top usage. There are no drone t2 destroyers. There are no drone t3 destroyers. The only drone t3 cruiser is the proteus (no the legion doesn't count) and that isn't dominant because it has only 100m3 bandwidth combined with awful slot layout. For the few remaining people that use t1 BCs I'm fairly certain there's a consensus that the myrm and proph are dominant. There is no drone navy BC. I don't think anyone uses navy BS anymore when pirate are only 50 mill more. The only navy BS I would image used more than the domi would be the napoc because mega pulses are great and the napoc has essentially ishtar bonuses but for pulses. There is no drone marauder. BLOPs are mostly used for ganks where the slightly higher dps and instant application of the redeemer is better suited. In terms of actual combat where you don't outnumber your enemy 5 to 1, the sin is by far better. There are quite a few videos of solo active shield sin action on youtube as well as RR sin gangs. In conclusion, the only classes where drone ships aren't dominant are the classes that have no drone ships. "Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Perihelion Olenard 208	Posted - 2015.06.23 18:40:23 - [396] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: ... First of all, the Ishtar ... Power grid lowered from 780 to 740 ... There goes my plated Ishtar fit. Wish advanced weapon upgrades V and a faction plate there was only .6 PG left before the change.
Orca Platypus Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 10	Posted - 2015.06.23 18:44:37 - [397] - Quote I hate the change. I couldn't care less about PvP, it's boring anyway, but my PvE boats take a very serious hit from this change. Drone PvE boats were already heavily behind all turret and missile based PvE ships after the last round of nerfbatting (well, nerfbat habitually avoided gewns, but catering to gewns by nerfing everyone else is what CCP is all about). Can I get a drone SP refund? With this change drone boats become useless in PvE and that's the only kind of Pv I care about.
Disposable Hashur Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.06.23 18:50:54 - [398] - Quote Well i read everyone's post talking about damage and slots etc. Maybe drone ships are first in stats because they need no ammo??? Anyone?? Its only logical to use the ONLY weapon system in game that needs no ammo. Even crystals for amarr ships take dmg (though only faction). But atm I believe most ppl use drone ships ALSO because they require no ammo
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony 5	Posted - 2015.06.23 18:54:46 - [399] - Quote Orca Platypus wrote: I hate the change. Drone PvE boats were already heavily behind all turret and missile based PvE ships after the last round of nerfbatting No they are not. PvE = ISK farming and you're using drones because you can deploy dentries and laugh in their face with no ISK spent on ammo. Please be more precise as to which drone carrier you're using and how it's "behind" because I fail to see it. As a frame of reference, I'm using a Muninn for my misssioning for pretty much the same reasons: artillery doesn't cost too much in ammo, and the speed keeps me alive. What are you fielding? Elaborate on why your favourite droneboat is behind. Then we'll talk.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 11542	Posted - 2015.06.23 18:59:54 - [400] - Quote I just find it amazing that a company known for heavy handed nerfing is tip-toeing around the Ishtar. What is this, the 4th or 5th minor tweak?
ivona fly Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 10	Posted - 2015.06.23 19:07:50 - [401] - Quote Perihelion Olenard wrote: CCP Rise wrote: ... First of all, the Ishtar ... Power grid lowered from 780 to 740 ... There goes my plated Ishtar fit. Wish advanced weapon upgrades V and a 1600mm Federation Navy plate there was only .6 PG left before the change. you have an extra low, fit a reactor core?
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1445	Posted - 2015.06.23 19:21:53 - [402] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: I just find it amazing that a company known for heavy handed nerfing is tip-toeing around the Ishtar. What is this, the 4th or 5th minor tweak? Indeed - I still remember the initial HML proposed nerf of 25%, and the range hacked, and the application hammered! Although I think this one will do it for ishtars, they're counterable more realistically now.
Alexis Nightwish 255	Posted - 2015.06.23 19:22:20 - [403] - Quote Ishtar and VNI still broken due to full flight of bonused sentries, but what else is new. CCP won't ever fix that core problem because sentry cruisers are CCPs babies. DDA nerf is good, since all drone ships are too strong, but this should put the ones that aren't broken OP where they should be. However I foresee more weapon system-related nerfs in the future when CCP pretends to nerf the Ishtar again. RoF buff does nothing. Stich has a whole thread on the issues with BCs, which can be summarized as "BCs need projection and/or application to fulfill their role of killing cruisers." RoF isn't projection or application so nothing will change, but I don't expect CCP to ever change the status quo of Cruisers Online. CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge EVE Online's "I win!" Button Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Ransu Asanari Powder and Ball Alchemists Union Mordus Angels 260	Posted - 2015.06.23 19:52:49 - [404] - Quote I'm pretty okay with the most of the Ishtar changes. I think they are needed, but may be going a bit too far. I don't want to see the ship nerfed into uselessness for 3 years like some ships have in the past. The changes to speed, mass, and agility go after the main issue of speed shield fits. The problem of just dropping drones and kiting away, being much faster than most other HACs - this will help address it. It will be a lot harder to fit as much tank as you currently can due to the PG reduction - fitting on the Ishtar was much too easy before, and you will need to make harder choices or use fitting mods to compensate. Reducing the Drone Operation Range bonus on the Ishtar to 4000m/Level would have been another way of reducing the kiting ability without reducing choice for the Ishtar. This would still allow kiting away from Sentry Drones, but you'd have to make fitting decisions for more Drone Link Augmentors; or kite closer to your drones to stay in control range. If this was all that was done, I think it would have been a significant change. The 1 mid slot, +1 low slot I think may be going too far, as it makes the Ishtar too much like the VNI in terms of slot layout, and makes it too difficult to use a Shield setup. That was one main advantages of the Ishtar over the VNI, in addition to the HAC MWD bloom reduction, and better resist profile. I still think that to balance Sentry drones on Cruiser hulls, we need a Medium Sentry Drone weapon that has shorter range and less damage, but better tracking. Large Sentry Drones could be kept for Battlecruiser/Battleship hulls, and you could have Medium Sentry Drones on Destroyers and Cruisers. Introducing something like this would take a lot of work however, so I doubt it'll happen. The DDA nerf isn't too oppressive to the current drone ships, so I think it's a balanced change. When capital ships get rebalanced, please look at how this affects their damage capability because the small percentage decrease affects them significantly more. Powder and Ball Alchemists Union - "Turning Lead into Gold since 2008"
Kenrailae Fallen Reich 382	Posted - 2015.06.23 20:20:45 - [405] - Quote Yay CCP Rise! The Law is a point of View
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2091	Posted - 2015.06.23 20:26:34 - [406] - Quote IMO the ishtar should become a medium drone boat. Simular to the gila but instead of shields its focus is armor and 5 drones instead of two and only focused on drones for damage. new ishtar: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to medium and small drone speed per level 10% bonus to medium and small drone hp and damage per level Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 20% bonus to medium drone damage and hit points per level 10% bonus to medium drone tracking per level Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty 4 high 4 mid 6 low 150 m3 drone bay 50mb activation. what this should do is make those 5 medium drones worth 12.5... which is 0.5 more then the gila but has much better drone damage application... AFAIK tech II is supposed to be specialized but the way how ccp designed the ishtar now is its a jack of all trades... just refocus the ship into the armor medium drone beast it should be. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Alexis Nightwish 257	Posted - 2015.06.23 20:41:15 - [407] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: IMO the ishtar should become a medium drone boat. Simular to the gila but instead of shields its focus is armor and 5 drones instead of two and only focused on drones for damage. new ishtar: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to medium and small drone speed per level 10% bonus to medium and small drone hp and damage per level Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 20% bonus to medium drone damage and hit points per level 10% bonus to medium drone tracking per level Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty 4 high 4 mid 6 low 150 m3 drone bay 50mb activation. what this should do is make those 5 medium drones worth 12.5... which is 0.5 more then the gila but has much better drone damage application... AFAIK tech II is supposed to be specialized but the way how ccp designed the ishtar now is its a jack of all trades... just refocus the ship into the armor medium drone beast it should be. Please don't use the Gila as a reference to a balanced drone boat. :( It's one of the three most broken cruisers in the game. CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge EVE Online's "I win!" Button Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 98	Posted - 2015.06.23 20:47:31 - [408] - Quote Neok1337 wrote: Someone posted on the first page and said about the ability to detach dps when you drop dentrys. But how about if insted of dropping them they just set up a fixed orbit around the ship. ^ That would actually be a pretty good idea, it probably wouldn't completely fix the problem but it would make drones a lot easier to balance.
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2091	Posted - 2015.06.23 20:50:59 - [409] - Quote Alexis Nightwish wrote: Please don't use the Gila as a reference to a balanced drone boat. :( It's one of the three most broken cruisers in the game. tell this to me after the new patch when typhoons will be blapping them off the field. typhoon with rapid heavies and smartbombs and the guidance comps will eat gila for breakfast... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 45	Posted - 2015.06.23 20:55:08 - [410] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Unamed Vyvorant wrote: Rockstara wrote: fit any HAC to do damage at 70 km. It's tough to get decent dps on such ships at that range. Except for the ishtar, it is ~100% better in terms of damage than the next best option. you don't need 5% tweaks, you need a big axe Any kind of cerberus HAML Cerb 600dps at 65km RLML Cerb 614dps at 102km HML Cerb 500dps at 152km without new missile modules, and 5%buff heavy missiles can you fit ishtar for that distance? Yes. And it'll do more DPS to boot. This is not true. Right now, Ishtar's are among the best sniping cruisers for the applied damage done. With the proposed AEGIS changes they will do the following using 3x DDA IIs, 2 OTE II, 2 DLA II: Curator: ~480 DPS @ 78km/17km Bouncer: ~450 DPS @ 67km/76km Warden: ~435 DPS @ 112km/59km Definitely a top sniping cruiser. With new missile mods the Cerberus will be equally high on the list with a 20% DPS loss for choosing selection type so for EM over Kinetic you get 400 DPS instead of 500 DPS which is good DPS and pretty big range increase over the curator . An Eagle using 250mm railsguns with 3 Mag Stab II and 2 TC II with Optimal script does: CN Plutonium: ~390 @ 66km/25km CN Uranium: ~374 DPS @ 79km/25km CN Lead: ~299 DPS @ 105/25k Spike: ~260 DPS @ 190km/25km The Sacrilege does not have the range of Cerberus but with the new modules it should be able to snipe just fine. Using 3x BCS II + 1x missile velocity rig and 1x flight time rig (new missile modules will open greater range and application options). (Any damage type) HAM CN: 494 @ 44km HM Fury: 417 DPS @ 102km HM CN: 355 DPS @ 136k A Zealot with Heavy Beam Laser II 3x HS II, 1x TC II optimal script, 1x TE Ultraviolet: 470 DPS @ 49km/15km Standard: 417 DPS @ 56km/15km Aurora: 363 DPS @ 101km/15km And let's throw in an Arty HAC too for good measure. Vagabond using 650mm II, 3x Gyro II, 1x TC II optimal script, 1x TE II. RF EMP: 403DPS @ 15km/33km RF Nuclear: 168 DPS @ 48km/50km Tremor: 234 DPS @ 54km/50km Muninn with same setup: RF EMP: 403DPS @ 23k/50k RF Nuclear: 168 DPS @ 72km/33km Tremor: 234 DPS @ 82km/33km CONCLUSION: Missiles are coming back as an option for ranged platforms. Ishtars are still exceptional but in a much better place. For me, one opportunity to make other HACs more desirable would be to boost the DPS of Tremor, Spike, and Aurora ammo. The numbers from the examples provided are not the only important number to consider for balance as other factors play into damage application and the survivability of the ship. But I think there is an opportunity to slightly boost the DPS on ranged weapon systems to make them more competitive options.
Deacon Abox Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 509	Posted - 2015.06.23 21:00:26 - [411] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: The fact that Domi & Armageddon are both in the lead tells you everything you need to know about DDAs. There's only two ways out of this shebang: Fix DDA or Fix the Legacy 50% hull Hitpoint/Damage bonuses, because the base drone attributes are out of whack. The reason the Geddon is used is not for the drones but for the extended range large neuts. You used to have to field a curse with a much less robust tank if you wanted serious neuts on field. Now you can put an insurable beefier neuter, and more of them, into a battle. I don't perceive a huge number of Domis being a problem atm. Although who knows with these changes to the Ishtar it may be a fallback for heavily drone invested alliance gruntage. Regardless, improved Tempests may become a thing. Since other changes appear to be reducing the ease of bombers. And, alpha arty has some important advantages over other turret types. CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
Orca Platypus Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 10	Posted - 2015.06.23 21:26:37 - [412] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Orca Platypus wrote: I hate the change. Drone PvE boats were already heavily behind all turret and missile based PvE ships after the last round of nerfbatting No they are not. PvE = ISK farming and you're using drones because you can deploy dentries and laugh in their face with no ISK spent on ammo. Please be more precise as to which drone carrier you're using and how it's "behind" because I fail to see it. As a frame of reference, I'm using a Muninn for my misssioning for pretty much the same reasons: artillery doesn't cost too much in ammo, and the speed keeps me alive. What are you fielding? Elaborate on why your favourite droneboat is behind. Then we'll talk. Sentries are going to fall hard into +-600dps now, and EVERY faction has a ratting ship which is at least 50% above that in dps (I mean 900-ish for average ratting ships and 1300-ish for blingy ones - which are 100% better than best Dominix you can fit with those changes). Ammo is not a problem, it doesn't cost half as much as people tend to think it is. And it is definitely worth the gap turret and missile ships have over drone ships now (at least 50%, remember). Dominixes were already used as secondary fire with assisted drones, where they got down from primary role in the drone nerfbatting process of late. Now even secondary is better off with a long range turret or missile ship - at least 15% advantage even despite all the application issues. Which means one thing - all those drone ships, drone rigs, half the gallente skills and all the drone SP have been rendered completely and utterly useless for PvE. Thanks a lot Rise, nice way to screw 5 months of sub off me.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 46	Posted - 2015.06.23 21:28:57 - [413] - Quote God's Apples wrote: [quote] That's because there are no drone boats in those classes. Are you actually that stupid? ... In conclusion, the only classes where drone ships aren't dominant are the classes that have no drone ships. Nope not stupid just pointing out inconsistencies when I see them. Iskur is regarded by many to be a drone boat much like the Tristan is a drone boat. The Algos is a popular drone boat destroyer, but it is NOT at the top of the list, regardless if you have reasons to explain it away. There are other drone based ships in several of the categories I mention. The omission of Myrmidon/Prophecy from the list does not mean they are really on the list. Same for the Sin or Eos. And because a Proteus is a bad drone boat does not mean it does not qualify to be one. I mention classes without drones to show there are classes without drones. Since all I was refuting was the fact that the statement was made that "Drone boats do the most damage across all classes of ships." Which is not quite accurate. And apparently you ignore my agreeing with the fact that many drone boats are dominant and that I agree with the DDA changes. SO, before running off and calling people stupid, try reading, and applying context.
Alexis Nightwish 260	Posted - 2015.06.23 21:38:10 - [414] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: Alexis Nightwish wrote: Please don't use the Gila as a reference to a balanced drone boat. :( It's one of the three most broken cruisers in the game. tell this to me after the new patch when typhoons will be blapping them off the field. typhoon with rapid heavies and smartbombs and the guidance comps will eat gila for breakfast... Phoon joining the very select group of useful battleships doesn't make the Gila any less broken in relation to other cruisers. CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge EVE Online's "I win!" Button Fixing bombs, not the bombers
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1445	Posted - 2015.06.23 21:39:20 - [415] - Quote Orca Platypus wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Orca Platypus wrote: I hate the change. Drone PvE boats were already heavily behind all turret and missile based PvE ships after the last round of nerfbatting No they are not. PvE = ISK farming and you're using drones because you can deploy dentries and laugh in their face with no ISK spent on ammo. Please be more precise as to which drone carrier you're using and how it's "behind" because I fail to see it. As a frame of reference, I'm using a Muninn for my misssioning for pretty much the same reasons: artillery doesn't cost too much in ammo, and the speed keeps me alive. What are you fielding? Elaborate on why your favourite droneboat is behind. Then we'll talk. Sentries are going to fall hard into +-600dps now, and EVERY faction has a ratting ship which is at least 50% above that in dps (I mean 900-ish for average ratting ships and 1300-ish for blingy ones - which are 100% better than best Dominix you can fit with those changes). Ammo is not a problem, it doesn't cost half as much as people tend to think it is. And it is definitely worth the gap turret and missile ships have over drone ships now (at least 50%, remember). Dominixes were already used as secondary fire with assisted drones, where they got down from primary role in the drone nerfbatting process of late. Now even secondary is better off with a long range turret or missile ship - at least 15% advantage even despite all the application issues. Which means one thing - all those drone ships, drone rigs, half the gallente skills and all the drone SP have been rendered completely and utterly useless for PvE. Thanks a lot Rise, nice way to screw 5 months of sub off me. It's a T1 battleship. It has no right WHATSOEVER competing with pirate or faction hulls, but it does. It is in fact SO GOOD that the navy version is garbage for PvE by comparison. You set far too much stock in paper DPS to boot.
James Zimmer Furtherance. 33	Posted - 2015.06.23 22:03:36 - [416] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: Alexis Nightwish wrote: Please don't use the Gila as a reference to a balanced drone boat. :( It's one of the three most broken cruisers in the game. tell this to me after the new patch when typhoons will be blapping them off the field. typhoon with rapid heavies and smartbombs and the guidance comps will eat gila for breakfast... Good. A battleship designed for an anti-cruiser role should eat cruisers for breakfast, the same way a rapid light caracal eats frigates for breakfast.
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems 361	Posted - 2015.06.24 00:02:25 - [417] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: More data for the cri-ers - http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 PvP damage done by ship class, segmented by weapons type. Jesus Christ... How the **** did it take CCP this long to pull head from ass?
Caleb Seremshur Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 568	Posted - 2015.06.24 00:11:41 - [418] - Quote Dez Affinity wrote: You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. Remove drone assist Remove the ability of sub-bs to fit drone range highs You've fixed them. Now they sit at 52km which is in range of a much much larger variety of weapons. Oh yeah - drones lose lock when the host ship does. That should make ecm, damps and kiting effective too. Sentries are supposed to be a static dps platform so make changes to facilitate them being more static. Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
NovemberMike Hole Violence Whole Squid 6	Posted - 2015.06.24 00:19:05 - [419] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. This only works for standard drones though. Lights, mediums and heavies are all relatively well balanced, so a cruiser fielding heavies doesn't tend to pose real problems. Sentries are clearly a BS grade weapon with their range, and that causes real problems when you can fit them on tanky cruisers that still move at cruiser speeds. Currently, sentries with fast tanky ships make for comps that cannot be outmaneuvered and can't be sniped out.
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 367	Posted - 2015.06.24 00:20:52 - [420] - Quote My vexor isn't going to do 903 dps with a decent tank. It was a good run but I can't argue it was balanced.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 822	Posted - 2015.06.24 00:25:36 - [421] - Quote I swear, everyone cries about the Ishtar and now everyone cries about the Ishtar... Keep doing what you're doing CCP Rise.. And Fozzie, you've been getting a lot of heckling lately. Ignore the keyboard warriors and keep doing what you're doing. Take their keyboards away and put the man in front of their face; suddenly they become friendly and thankful. Keep your heads high men... You're doing a good job in my book.
Orca Platypus Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 14	Posted - 2015.06.24 03:16:41 - [422] - Quote afkalt wrote: Orca Platypus wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Orca Platypus wrote: I hate the change. Drone PvE boats were already heavily behind all turret and missile based PvE ships after the last round of nerfbatting No they are not. PvE = ISK farming and you're using drones because you can deploy dentries and laugh in their face with no ISK spent on ammo. Please be more precise as to which drone carrier you're using and how it's "behind" because I fail to see it. As a frame of reference, I'm using a Muninn for my misssioning for pretty much the same reasons: artillery doesn't cost too much in ammo, and the speed keeps me alive. What are you fielding? Elaborate on why your favourite droneboat is behind. Then we'll talk. Sentries are going to fall hard into +-600dps now, and EVERY faction has a ratting ship which is at least 50% above that in dps (I mean 900-ish for average ratting ships and 1300-ish for blingy ones - which are 100% better than best Dominix you can fit with those changes). Ammo is not a problem, it doesn't cost half as much as people tend to think it is. And it is definitely worth the gap turret and missile ships have over drone ships now (at least 50%, remember). Dominixes were already used as secondary fire with assisted drones, where they got down from primary role in the drone nerfbatting process of late. Now even secondary is better off with a long range turret or missile ship - at least 15% advantage even despite all the application issues. Which means one thing - all those drone ships, drone rigs, half the gallente skills and all the drone SP have been rendered completely and utterly useless for PvE. Thanks a lot Rise, nice way to screw 5 months of sub off me. It's a T1 battleship. It has no right WHATSOEVER competing with pirate or faction hulls, but it does. It is in fact SO GOOD that the navy version is garbage for PvE by comparison. You set far too much stock in paper DPS to boot. You, sir, suck. First, since when being half as good is "competing"? Second, if you think Navynix is garbage, Guristas and Serpentis know well otherwise. The fact that it's faction-locked while Dominix is not is the only limiting factor. Otherwise it's a proper 1300-ish dps ratting ship. And I set not too much stock in paper dps. Honestly, people who can't manage consistent 20 million ticks shouldn't even talk.
Gerald Mardiska The Minutemen The Bastion 27	Posted - 2015.06.24 03:55:54 - [423] - Quote NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOO LEAVE THE ISHTAR ALONE
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 822	Posted - 2015.06.24 04:43:31 - [424] - Quote Orca Platypus wrote: You, sir, suck. First, since when being half as good is "competing"? Second, if you think Navynix is garbage, Guristas and Serpentis know well otherwise. The fact that it's faction-locked while Dominix is not is the only limiting factor. Otherwise it's a proper 1300-ish dps ratting ship. And I set not too much stock in paper dps. Honestly, people who can't manage consistent 20 million ticks shouldn't even talk. 1) both Domi and Ishtar can fit guns... Ever think of using them? 2) if not using guns, you're given several utility high to take advantage of. You can either fit guns and add DPS for PVE, or fit neuts and kill them with drones for PVP. Just because you can field a full flight of sentry drones doesn't mean you should have equal DPS with those drones as a brawler BS. You have long range, damage selection, your damage is immune to neut, utility highs, no ammo consumption (this matters a lot for missile boats as T2 and navy missiles aren't really that cheap), and you have the element of surprise as far as what you're carrying. (Does he have sentries and are they long or close range, lights, heavies, mediums, what type of damage, is he fitted for range of tracking, does he have geckos) The fact that you expect to have all this and pirate faction DPS is astounding.
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 24	Posted - 2015.06.24 05:12:40 - [425] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: 1) both Domi and Ishtar can fit guns... Ever think of using them? If i want to use the from CCP intended armor ishtar : i can't use guns. No power left to fit a Tank and guns/neuts.
Orca Platypus Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 21	Posted - 2015.06.24 05:38:58 - [426] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: Orca Platypus wrote: You, sir, suck. First, since when being half as good is "competing"? Second, if you think Navynix is garbage, Guristas and Serpentis know well otherwise. The fact that it's faction-locked while Dominix is not is the only limiting factor. Otherwise it's a proper 1300-ish dps ratting ship. And I set not too much stock in paper dps. Honestly, people who can't manage consistent 20 million ticks shouldn't even talk. 1) both Domi and Ishtar can fit guns... Ever think of using them? 2) if not using guns, you're given several utility high to take advantage of. You can either fit guns and add DPS for PVE, or fit neuts and kill them with drones for PVP. Just because you can field a full flight of sentry drones doesn't mean you should have equal DPS with those drones as a brawler BS. You have long range, damage selection, your damage is immune to neut, utility highs, no ammo consumption (this matters a lot for missile boats as T2 and navy missiles aren't really that cheap), and you have the element of surprise as far as what you're carrying. (Does he have sentries and are they long or close range, lights, heavies, mediums, what type of damage, is he fitted for range of tracking, does he have geckos) The fact that you expect to have all this and pirate faction DPS is astounding. 1) Ishtar can't, either CPU or pg is going to fail. Domi surely can, and get another 180dps at 30km. Wooo... like I were saying, any long range gun platform can do better. 2) Utility highs are pretty much useless in PvE, except niche fits of course, but in general they do nothing. I honestly don't care what you do with it in PvP. If you aren't bored to death with eve PvP, it's your problem. The problem is that battleship size weapon system on battleship class vessel is getting nerfed to be the worst ranged solution for PvE. Missile boats have even better range and damage selection (drones with different damage types are different, missiles are not), and the ammo cost is definitely worth their 50% dps increase over Domi. Now I have to retrain my drone boat pilot for something which doesn't just suck, because drones don't pull their weight in PvE anymore. So it's gonna be 6 months until I can play eve again with a missile boat this time, if they aren't nerfed by that time. The fact that you bring "pirate faction DPS" in sentry drones discussion, knowing that after that change sentries are going to get "lol it tickled" dps in PvE, is an astounding act of near-criminal idiocy. They are HALF the pirate faction dps now, they are going to be LESS THAN HALF after this change.
Hullender Biafra' State 1	Posted - 2015.06.24 06:37:31 - [427] - Quote And anybody who trains drones is very likely going to train highbrids which is the worst weapon system for PVE. Doesn't look like these changes take into account there are people who don't PVP with these ships or take part in null blob fleets. After this change fitting an armor plate or dual reppers would be more difficult not to talk of guns and neuts. And then making an already slow cruiser even slower when the problem as everyone has stated is ishtar and sentries.
Draahk Chimera Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 77	Posted - 2015.06.24 07:59:19 - [428] - Quote And he maketh my cup of tears to floweth over. :) 404 - Image not found
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1445	Posted - 2015.06.24 09:00:10 - [429] - Quote Orca Platypus wrote: afkalt wrote: Orca Platypus wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Orca Platypus wrote: I hate the change. Drone PvE boats were already heavily behind all turret and missile based PvE ships after the last round of nerfbatting No they are not. PvE = ISK farming and you're using drones because you can deploy dentries and laugh in their face with no ISK spent on ammo. Please be more precise as to which drone carrier you're using and how it's "behind" because I fail to see it. As a frame of reference, I'm using a Muninn for my misssioning for pretty much the same reasons: artillery doesn't cost too much in ammo, and the speed keeps me alive. What are you fielding? Elaborate on why your favourite droneboat is behind. Then we'll talk. Sentries are going to fall hard into +-600dps now, and EVERY faction has a ratting ship which is at least 50% above that in dps (I mean 900-ish for average ratting ships and 1300-ish for blingy ones - which are 100% better than best Dominix you can fit with those changes). Ammo is not a problem, it doesn't cost half as much as people tend to think it is. And it is definitely worth the gap turret and missile ships have over drone ships now (at least 50%, remember). Dominixes were already used as secondary fire with assisted drones, where they got down from primary role in the drone nerfbatting process of late. Now even secondary is better off with a long range turret or missile ship - at least 15% advantage even despite all the application issues. Which means one thing - all those drone ships, drone rigs, half the gallente skills and all the drone SP have been rendered completely and utterly useless for PvE. Thanks a lot Rise, nice way to screw 5 months of sub off me. It's a T1 battleship. It has no right WHATSOEVER competing with pirate or faction hulls, but it does. It is in fact SO GOOD that the navy version is garbage for PvE by comparison. You set far too much stock in paper DPS to boot. You, sir, suck. First, since when being half as good is "competing"? Second, if you think Navynix is garbage, Guristas and Serpentis know well otherwise. The fact that it's faction-locked while Dominix is not is the only limiting factor. Otherwise it's a proper 1300-ish dps ratting ship. And I set not too much stock in paper dps. Honestly, people who can't manage consistent 20 million ticks shouldn't even talk. Wormholes don't have ticks. Come back to me when you put your big boy pants on. Stop whining like a little girl that your precious afk "ticks" are hurt. No-one, literally no-one, gives a flying ****. If you think this minor DDA nerf (and believe me, it's minor) renders them unusable, then I've nothing to tell you. Farmville is over there>>>>>
Luscius Uta 151	Posted - 2015.06.24 09:26:07 - [430] - Quote I support those changes, especially to DDAs. Drone boats are broken, since their DPS is way too high for a weapon system that can do selectable, capless damage. That means there's rarely any reason to use anything else (if autocannons did more DPS than blasters and pulse lasers nobody would use those two, and now on a somewhat related note I just thought of Revelation who needs more love). Don't want the Ishtar to be nerfed too much however - people will just use VNIs and Gilas if you do that. I wish the Ishtar was more like it was before HAC rebalance, when it still had drone damage and range bonuses as well as a large drone bay, but no bonuses to tracking or optimal range.
Luscius Uta 151	Posted - 2015.06.24 09:49:57 - [431] - Quote Orca Platypus wrote: I hate the change. I couldn't care less about PvP, it's boring anyway, but my PvE boats take a very serious hit from this change. Drone PvE boats were already heavily behind all turret and missile based PvE ships after the last round of nerfbatting (well, nerfbat habitually avoided gewns, but catering to gewns by nerfing everyone else is what CCP is all about). Can I get a drone SP refund? With this change drone boats become useless in PvE and that's the only kind of Pv I care about. My 900 DPS Gila and Ishtar say otherwise, after these changes they'll have what, 20 DPS less? Hardly any difference. But CCP could nerf something even by a 0.0001% and there will still be people who fail at math who will whine how their favourite ship is now going to be useless.
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 371	Posted - 2015.06.24 10:22:03 - [432] - Quote Orca Platypus wrote: Otherwise it's a proper 1300-ish dps ratting ship. And I set not too much stock in paper dps. Honestly, people who can't manage consistent 20 million ticks shouldn't even talk. Well, if you're getting 1300 dps you aren't using rails and likely aren't using sentries, so you aren't actually hitting for more than about 70% of your dps if you're good. So you are putting too much in paper dps. If you're going to go full '1337 pve' on us set a bar that can't be out done with 450 dps and a painter. Beast mode Navydomi is still over 1500 dps and still a scary if rare sight.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1445	Posted - 2015.06.24 10:25:21 - [433] - Quote HiddenPorpoise wrote: Beast mode Navydomi is still over 1500 dps and still a scary if rare sight. Absolutely, but are almost always a sub par choice for general PvE work. Many other hulls are a far more efficient choice. They are very nice in PvP, however, for me remain overshadowed by vindicators - accept no substitute at those ranges.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 770	Posted - 2015.06.24 10:46:46 - [434] - Quote Navy Dominix compares very favorably even in PvE with the standard Dominix. You just take that extra mid slot and stick a Omnitracker in it, and you have most of a standard Dominix with 50% more tank and bonused rails. I'm not sure what 'completely overshadowed' means in hyperbole land, but the N.Domi is a fine ship for PvE, if you are silly enough to still be bothering with the hassle of drone eating AI. I don't like the DDA change myself. Drones were a joke for almost as long as they have been in game. Finally given a fair shake in PvP they have gotten nothing but nerfed since the Domi finally got bonuses making it a full drone ship instead of a split weapon ship. Sooner or later they are going to be relegated to being laughed off the field again, and be in a worse place for PvE than ever before.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1445	Posted - 2015.06.24 11:14:18 - [435] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: Navy Dominix compares very favorably even in PvE with the standard Dominix. You just take that extra mid slot and stick a Omnitracker in it, and you have most of a standard Dominix with 50% more tank and bonused rails. I'm not sure what 'completely overshadowed' means in hyperbole land, but the N.Domi is a fine ship for PvE, if you are silly enough to still be bothering with the hassle of drone eating AI. I don't like the DDA change myself. Drones were a joke for almost as long as they have been in game. Finally given a fair shake in PvP they have gotten nothing but nerfed since the Domi finally got bonuses making it a full drone ship instead of a split weapon ship. Sooner or later they are going to be relegated to being laughed off the field again, and be in a worse place for PvE than ever before. The fitting is a lot harder than you think, it is not a generously resourced ship - the guns are necessary in order to make up for the projection shortfall leaving little room for DLAs (i.e. none) and you're paying through the nose for it to boot. More isk outlay, more expenses in the form of ammo. All to approximately break even in applied DPS to rat ships? No thanks. Not ever. Unless you're running anoms point blank at 0 and using heavies, but let's leave edge cases with super convenient spawns aside, I think.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2928	Posted - 2015.06.24 11:27:01 - [436] - Quote CCP Rise, after looking at some fits and comparing old Ishtar to proposed Ishtar here are my thoughts. Consider moving 200 Shield HP to Armor HP Remove the Sentry Damage and HP bonus from the ship. Leave the Powergrid at 780 Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
gascanu Bearing Srl. 211	Posted - 2015.06.24 11:36:56 - [437] - Quote Luscius Uta wrote: Orca Platypus wrote: I hate the change. I couldn't care less about PvP, it's boring anyway, but my PvE boats take a very serious hit from this change. Drone PvE boats were already heavily behind all turret and missile based PvE ships after the last round of nerfbatting (well, nerfbat habitually avoided gewns, but catering to gewns by nerfing everyone else is what CCP is all about). Can I get a drone SP refund? With this change drone boats become useless in PvE and that's the only kind of Pv I care about. My 900 DPS Gila and Ishtar say otherwise, after these changes they'll have what, 20 DPS less? Hardly any difference. But CCP could nerf something even by a 0.0001% and there will still be people who fail at math who will whine how their favourite ship is now going to be useless. oh, can you pls link that 900 dps ishtar? like really, can we stop bring ******** arguments, and focus on facts? you know, like reall fittings and not the 50k m/s ships we sometime see on forums; for example, a sentry ishtar will never get that kind of dps; assuming a heavy drones fit, a reality check will tell you that,with a few exceptions, about half of the time your drones will be travelling from a target to another, but yea, keep crying about paper dps...
Sexy Cakes Have A Seat 944	Posted - 2015.06.24 12:00:46 - [438] - Quote Honestly you should have removed a midslot a year ago. Better late than never I suppose. Not today spaghetti.
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 371	Posted - 2015.06.24 12:05:47 - [439] - Quote gascanu wrote: oh, can you pls link that 900 dps ishtar? like really, can we stop bring ******** arguments, and focus on facts? you know, like reall fittings and not the 50k m/s ships we sometime see on forums; for example, a sentry ishtar will never get that kind of dps; assuming a heavy drones fit, a reality check will tell you that,with a few exceptions, about half of the time your drones will be travelling from a target to another, but yea, keep crying about paper dps... p.s: ishtar need sentry optimal/tracking bonuses removed, ship is fixed; the dda nerf is not really needed, esp since this is the 3rd 0r 4rth nerf in a row to sentry drones; like really, ishtar has been able too fit 5 sentrys since forever, and noone complained about it; the reall problems started with the last hac reballance , when ccp gave it optimal and tracking bonuses;add to this the new drones tracking mods and here we are... tldr: dmg is not the reall problem, the tracking and 100 km optimall are Fit any set of guns to an ishtar, now you have 900-1100 dps; it's a small group thing. They're doing a bunch of small nerfs to the ishtar because it's actually weaker in the most common fits than when the HAC buffs happened. It's just so much easier on FC's that CCP wants to keep pushing until people stop using it as the everything fleet. And people won't stop because shooting the fleets guns for them is so much easier than trusting idiots.
gascanu Bearing Srl. 211	Posted - 2015.06.24 12:22:56 - [440] - Quote HiddenPorpoise wrote: gascanu wrote: oh, can you pls link that 900 dps ishtar? like really, can we stop bring ******** arguments, and focus on facts? you know, like reall fittings and not the 50k m/s ships we sometime see on forums; for example, a sentry ishtar will never get that kind of dps; assuming a heavy drones fit, a reality check will tell you that,with a few exceptions, about half of the time your drones will be travelling from a target to another, but yea, keep crying about paper dps... p.s: ishtar need sentry optimal/tracking bonuses removed, ship is fixed; the dda nerf is not really needed, esp since this is the 3rd 0r 4rth nerf in a row to sentry drones; like really, ishtar has been able too fit 5 sentrys since forever, and noone complained about it; the reall problems started with the last hac reballance , when ccp gave it optimal and tracking bonuses;add to this the new drones tracking mods and here we are... tldr: dmg is not the reall problem, the tracking and 100 km optimall are Fit any set of guns to an ishtar, now you have 900-1100 dps; it's a small group thing. They're doing a bunch of small nerfs to the ishtar because it's actually weaker in the most common fits than when the HAC buffs happened. It's just so much easier on FC's that CCP wants to keep pushing until people stop using it as the everything fleet. And people won't stop because shooting the fleets guns for them is so much easier than trusting idiots. i underlined the part you missed, but don't let facts stop you
Orca Platypus Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 21	Posted - 2015.06.24 12:38:04 - [441] - Quote gascanu wrote: Luscius Uta wrote: Orca Platypus wrote: I hate the change. I couldn't care less about PvP, it's boring anyway, but my PvE boats take a very serious hit from this change. Drone PvE boats were already heavily behind all turret and missile based PvE ships after the last round of nerfbatting (well, nerfbat habitually avoided gewns, but catering to gewns by nerfing everyone else is what CCP is all about). Can I get a drone SP refund? With this change drone boats become useless in PvE and that's the only kind of Pv I care about. My 900 DPS Gila and Ishtar say otherwise, after these changes they'll have what, 20 DPS less? Hardly any difference. But CCP could nerf something even by a 0.0001% and there will still be people who fail at math who will whine how their favourite ship is now going to be useless. oh, can you pls link that 900 dps ishtar? like really, can we stop bring ******** arguments, and focus on facts? you know, like reall fittings and not the 50k m/s ships we sometime see on forums; for example, a sentry ishtar will never get that kind of dps; assuming a heavy drones fit, a reality check will tell you that,with a few exceptions, about half of the time your drones will be travelling from a target to another, but yea, keep crying about paper dps... p.s: ishtar need sentry optimal/tracking bonuses removed, ship is fixed; the dda nerf is not really needed, esp since this is the 3rd 0r 4rth nerf in a row to sentry drones; like really, ishtar has been able too fit 5 sentrys since forever, and noone complained about it; the reall problems started with the last hac reballance , when ccp gave it optimal and tracking bonuses;add to this the new drones tracking mods and here we are... tldr: dmg is not the reall problem, the tracking and 100 km optimall are Technically, Ishtar on 'Augmented' Ogres can (should I say "could"?) reach 900dps in drones alone. Fitting guns... guns won't fit without some gimping to drones. If you properly set up your orbit, most of the battleships will be inside it, almost NO travel time, the rest - just blap it first at the spawn point before there's any travel involved. There are 2 problems here: 1) Outside of thermal/kinetic pirate factions, the damage drops really far. 2) With this change, sentry dominix is dead for PvE, because it falls below the gap with non-thermal/kinetic drones. So, as usual, gewns are not really nerfed, it's the rest of eve who's dps is going to drop below the gap.
Luscius Uta 151	Posted - 2015.06.24 12:58:48 - [442] - Quote gascanu wrote: oh, can you pls link that 900 dps ishtar? like really, can we stop bring ******** arguments, and focus on facts? you know, like reall fittings and not the 50k m/s ships we sometime see on forums; for example, a sentry ishtar will never get that kind of dps; assuming a heavy drones fit, a reality check will tell you that,with a few exceptions, about half of the time your drones will be travelling from a target to another, but yea, keep crying about paper dps... Here's a fit suitable for ratting in Gallente space: [Ishtar, New Setup 1] Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer Armor Thermic Hardener II Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script Drone Navigation Computer II Drone Navigation Computer II 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Gecko x2 Hammerhead II x2 Hobgoblin II x1 975 DPS assuming all V skills, and Geckos are pretty fast. About real DPS being lower than paper DPS, you can say the same for probably just about any ship/fit, since you still have to reload, switch to different ammo, and missiles may not be hitting for full damage. You can check your "real" DPS by a combat Log analyzer like this one. So, even if an Ishtar won't have 900 DPS in reality, there's no way a non-drone boat could compete with that.
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 24	Posted - 2015.06.24 13:07:04 - [443] - Quote Ah. A typical super-bling fit and super-bad too. You wont survival the first damage in man sites. Even in gurista space ( worse in any other space )
Soldarius Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore 1315	Posted - 2015.06.24 13:24:23 - [444] - Quote I'm going to repost my suggestion from the last 2 iterations of Ishtar "balancing". Increase the bandwidth requirement of Sentries. Whatever ship you want to be able to field sentries, give it enough bandwidth to field 5. This does not include the Ishtar. A kiting heavy drone Ishtar might actually be interesting. Maybe. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2930	Posted - 2015.06.24 13:39:04 - [445] - Quote I like how this went from discussion about the changes of the Ishtar to crying about PVE which is very rarely considered for balance changes. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2545	Posted - 2015.06.24 13:43:06 - [446] - Quote Wooo tempest buff \o/ Didnt expect the DDA nerf, but its a good one. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
gascanu Bearing Srl. 211	Posted - 2015.06.24 13:50:20 - [447] - Quote Luscius Uta wrote: gascanu wrote: oh, can you pls link that 900 dps ishtar? like really, can we stop bring ******** arguments, and focus on facts? you know, like reall fittings and not the 50k m/s ships we sometime see on forums; for example, a sentry ishtar will never get that kind of dps; assuming a heavy drones fit, a reality check will tell you that,with a few exceptions, about half of the time your drones will be travelling from a target to another, but yea, keep crying about paper dps... Here's a fit suitable for ratting in Gallente space: [Ishtar, New Setup 1] Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer Armor Thermic Hardener II Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script Drone Navigation Computer II Drone Navigation Computer II 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Gecko x2 Hammerhead II x2 Hobgoblin II x1 975 DPS assuming all V skills, and Geckos are pretty fast. About real DPS being lower than paper DPS, you can say the same for probably just about any ship/fit, since you still have to reload, switch to different ammo, and missiles may not be hitting for full damage. You can check your "real" DPS by a combat Log analyzer like this one. So, even if an Ishtar won't have 900 DPS in reality, there's no way a non-drone boat could compete with that. man, that's not really a working fit, like your geckos will get the agro more times than not so you will need to recall them to give just one example... like i said, why ppl argue about things they don't really understand? but well...
Hullender Biafra' State 1	Posted - 2015.06.24 13:58:21 - [448] - Quote New nerfs are on sisi. There is no point to these feedback threads, there hasn't been for a while now.
La Ahri Project Tetragrammaton 1	Posted - 2015.06.24 14:09:42 - [449] - Quote I do think that Ishtar and drones should be nerfed, but you guys miss the main point: if we remove sentries from Ishtar, that will leave it with no ranged weapon. You can load ranged ammo into guns, so you should be able to choose drones too. I believe we should start with making ewar against ship affect drones, e.g. you get jammed, drones can't shoot, you get tracking disrupted, drones tracking go down. We can also limit ishtar's ability to move away from drones. For example: you get away more than xx (not 70!) km, you lose control over drones.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 46	Posted - 2015.06.24 14:14:59 - [450] - Quote Hullender wrote: New nerfs are on sisi. There is no point to these feedback threads, there hasn't been for a while now. Not true. CCP is listening. They sometime get ideas from these threads and sometimes make changes because of player feedback. Look at the Jackdaw, the thread was out before the ship was on SiSi, but it was a new release not a change. The original proposed bonus was for +5% shield per level of Cal Tac Dest but was proven too strong a bonus by players and changed to a unique reload bonus. Don't write CCP off just because most of the time they are not dissuaded by player arguments. I don't agree with the speed nerf, but I am okay with the rest of the changes proposed. Ironically the current "speed" meta has been complained about quite vocally in the forums and blogs for months and now we see CCP attacking speed. Look as base speed of Jackdaw and Hecate; and now the change to Ishtar's base speed. Don't be too surprised if you keep seeing base speed nerfs whenever a ship is up for a re-balance.
Xe'Cara'eos A Big Enough Lever 294	Posted - 2015.06.24 14:43:06 - [451] - Quote I ask again - why not stagger sentry firing times, making them more of a DPS weapon than an alpha weapon? For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
gascanu Bearing Srl. 211	Posted - 2015.06.24 15:05:53 - [452] - Quote Xe'Cara'eos wrote: I ask again - why not stagger sentry firing times, making them more of a DPS weapon than an alpha weapon? cose of server hamsters; some years ago rof of all drones was 2" and CCP basically doubled the dmg but incresed the rof to 4" to be easyer on the hamsters ; tldr because of lag
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 16284	Posted - 2015.06.24 15:16:18 - [453] - Quote Hullender wrote: New nerfs are on sisi. There is no point to these feedback threads, there hasn't been for a while now. They have changed changes multiple times based upon feedback after testing was done on sisi. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
clipper shore Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 5	Posted - 2015.06.24 15:50:53 - [454] - Quote So more short sighted changes to ships that in the overall changes coming to the game will have little effect. when the pos is removed from the game and any need for large dps fleets are gone then any changes to the dps of battleships will not put them in a place where the new mets will need them they will become redundant like caps .supers and titians , eve online will become small cruiser gangs and the isthar offers the best and most flexiblr option there even with the changes. fozzie sov is bringing faction warefare metas to nul sec and the ishtar will still rule that meta along with t3 cruisers none of these changes will effect that . All these chanes are just pissing off the vetern players that are the glue and building blocks that krrp this game going . ccp atm are driving foreward with changes that will break the game or more correctly allow the players to break the game without listening to what we got to say. the ishtar is just a small example of that attitude.
Goochan derp Elewaitor 15	Posted - 2015.06.24 17:31:08 - [455] - Quote i really think the ishtar needs a smaller drone bay, its the same size as the geddon and much larger than an eos.... how can anyone possibly defend this?
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 22075	Posted - 2015.06.24 18:54:22 - [456] - Quote We want to adjust the Ishtar.. so instead of fixing the bonuses of the Ishtar, we will be adjusting the hull stats, carpetbombing the DDAs, and playing with the Tempest for some reason. *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
Ele Rebellion Dead Star Syndicate 49	Posted - 2015.06.24 19:48:53 - [457] - Quote DDA nerf? Haven't we already run the Thanatos into the ground enough? This, if my math is correct, will take over 100 dps away from my thanatos. I went on SiSi. Looks like its only about an 85dps drop for DDA2s.
Sergej Petrow Aperture Space 0	Posted - 2015.06.24 20:39:11 - [458] - Quote It need no more nerfs. Why don't you remove all Droneboots? No one more will crying, the drones are to heavy.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 679	Posted - 2015.06.24 22:47:02 - [459] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Hullender wrote: New nerfs are on sisi. There is no point to these feedback threads, there hasn't been for a while now. They have changed changes multiple times based upon feedback after testing was done on sisi. This. I want my AF AB bonus back....it got lost somewhere on a Sisi mirror long ago. That and when (not if) this balance does not solve the issue ccp has some thing to ponder really. I swear CCP has some prior military working for them, possible Marine Corps. They love their group punishment for 1 or 2 problem children. PFC X is a screw up and did something stupid, again. Lets make the whole company or squadron pay for it. Used to work in the old days, give pfc X a wall to wall counseling or blanket party, usually got his head and his ass wired right again. If this what CCP someone (or someones) is going off of...this has changed. These days even good ole sandbag party (have the tard fill up sandbags and stack em until you get bored watching them) will get you as the NCO charged for hazing. Saw this as I left the Marines as a Sergeant....apparently lots of tards want paperwork that follows them their whole career vice a couple hour sand bag session that when done leaves no paper trail. Nerfing DDA not the solution. Not when the problem ships have bonuses that offset them. I recall CCP's stance on domi and Ishtar when this started. They said they finally got drones as a primary weapon. Which it did kind of need. If this is the spirit of the keeping some things in place (problem child ship bonuses) they are making the exact opposite happen. They are killing drones for the rest of us. I am eyeing the demise of even sentry rattler. A drone boat ffs. All these tweaks....just not in my mind worth the aggravation of baby sitting them. Heavy rattler being eyed so I get a lot of mobility back. Hell if the tracking mods work well...the rattler could go almost pure missile. maybe a DDA for light/mediums to kill frigs faster.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 170	Posted - 2015.06.24 23:34:41 - [460] - Quote Both the Ishtar and the Navy Vexor are absurd, these changes are okay but you're still side stepping the real issue which everyone with sense has said over and over... you can't have battleship dps and range on a cruiser hull and call that balanced, it's not just battleship dps either it's one of the best weapon systems in the game for range/damage/ damage application/ewar immunity. If this is okay how about a Cerberus/Navy Caracal with fitting bonus for RHML?
Commander Spurty Dimension Door We need wards. 1470	Posted - 2015.06.25 03:55:56 - [461] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: Both the Ishtar and the Navy Vexor are absurd, these changes are okay but you're still side stepping the real issue which everyone with sense has said over and over... you can't have battleship dps and range on a cruiser hull and call that balanced, it's not just battleship dps either it's one of the best weapon systems in the game for range/damage/ damage application/ewar immunity. If this is okay how about a Cerberus/Navy Caracal with fitting bonus for RHML? I'll vote for this. But seriously, a weapon system which has NO CAP issues, NO AMMO issues, NEVER RELOADS AND does BS class weapon damage, without any downside? You can say "No to glass cannons" if you train Gal is the message. Needs 'balancing'. Every person grumbling, you are just bad for EVE. Let the DEVs do the right thing here. There are good ships And wood ships And ships that sail the sea But the best ships are Spaceships Built by CCP
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1150	Posted - 2015.06.25 04:10:52 - [462] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: Both the Ishtar and the Navy Vexor are absurd, these changes are okay but you're still side stepping the real issue which everyone with sense has said over and over... you can't have battleship dps and range on a cruiser hull and call that balanced, it's not just battleship dps either it's one of the best weapon systems in the game for range/damage/ damage application/ewar immunity. I can support this... Fourteen Maken wrote: If this is okay how about a Cerberus/Navy Caracal with fitting bonus for RHML? ... but not this. To quote an old Simpson's episode: Lisa: Two wrongs don't make a right, Bart. Bart: Yes they do. Lisa: No they don't. Bart: Yes they do. Lisa: No they don't! Bart: Yes they do! Lisa: Dad! Homer: Two wrongs make a right, Lisa. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 375	Posted - 2015.06.25 06:00:07 - [463] - Quote Commander Spurty wrote: But seriously, a weapon system which has NO CAP issues, NO AMMO issues, NEVER RELOADS AND does BS class weapon damage, without any downside? I'm for the change, but the cap independence and dps are the only parts of that that are true (with the dps in part being battleships sucking). And reloading a drone ship isn't exactly easy without stopping a fleet completely.
Sean Crees Sean's Solo Corp 8	Posted - 2015.06.25 06:51:34 - [464] - Quote So, let me make sure I've got this right. [Aegis] Tempest: 6 turrets * 1.25 (25% damage bonus) = 7.5 / .625 (37.5% RoF bonus) = 12 effective turrets. Machariel: 7 turrets * 1.25 (25% damage bonus) = 8.75 / .75 (25% RoF hull bonus) = 11.66 effective turrets. Is it intended that a Tier 1 battleship is to do more DPS than a pirate faction battleship with the same weapon system? Not to mention it will also now be better than the Tempest Fleet Issue, which is supposed to be the same ship but better.
James Baboli Novablasters 916	Posted - 2015.06.25 06:54:12 - [465] - Quote So, Jessica Slow pointed out that the tempest now would have more effective turrets than a machariel if we are doing the math right.... Can someone double check me on this bit of math: tempest 6 x 1.25 / .625 = 12 Fleet pest 6 x 1.25 / .75 = 10 Machariel 7 x 1.25 / .75 = 11.6666 Vargur 4 x 2 / .75 = 10.6666 Maelstrom 8 /.75 = 10.66666 So the tempest has 2 more effective turrets than the fleet pest and roughly 2/5 of one more than a machariel, with the ability to fit 2 launcher in addition to the 12 effective turrets.... Is this intentional, overlooked or a math error I and Jessica made? Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
James Baboli Novablasters 916	Posted - 2015.06.25 07:02:32 - [466] - Quote Sean Crees wrote: So, let me make sure I've got this right. [Aegis] Tempest: 6 turrets * 1.25 (25% damage bonus) = 7.5 / .625 (37.5% RoF bonus) = 12 effective turrets. Machariel: 7 turrets * 1.25 (25% damage bonus) = 8.75 / .75 (25% RoF hull bonus) = 11.66 effective turrets. Is it intended that a Tier 1 battleship is to do more DPS than a pirate faction battleship with the same weapon system? Not to mention it will also now be better than the Tempest Fleet Issue, which is supposed to be the same ship but better. I think we both were posting at the same time on this. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1150	Posted - 2015.06.25 07:35:05 - [467] - Quote Sean Crees wrote: Not to mention it will also now be better than the Tempest Fleet Issue, which is supposed to be the same ship but better. I do not necessarily disagree with your other points, but Navy Faction Battleships are not always just "the same ship but better." The Navy Dominix, which I find is a great ship, still retains the old-style Dominix gun bonuses. Not to mention that DPS is not the only important statistic separating the Machariel from the Tempest. There are many other ways in which the Machariel is superior. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2058	Posted - 2015.06.25 10:26:42 - [468] - Quote James Baboli wrote: So, Jessica Slow pointed out that the tempest now would have more effective turrets than a machariel if we are doing the math right.... Can someone double check me on this bit of math: tempest 6 x 1.25 / .625 = 12 Fleet pest 6 x 1.25 / .75 = 10 Machariel 7 x 1.25 / .75 = 11.6666 Vargur 4 x 2 / .75 = 10.6666 Maelstrom 8 /.75 = 10.66666 So the tempest has 2 more effective turrets than the fleet pest and roughly 2/5 of one more than a machariel, with the ability to fit 2 launcher in addition to the 12 effective turrets.... Is this intentional, overlooked or a math error I and Jessica made? Rise said there will be a pass on all the battleships soon. Probably they have other things planned for these ships. And it is NOT as if these ships were not massively superiro to tempest in other regards. For example EHP of fleet tempest is in a completely different level. The machariel has a falloff bonus that makes it effectively have MUCH higher DPS than the new tempest. BOTH have MORE low slots, and taht means MORE damage mods that neutralize the turret count. Stop spreadsheet PVP, the capability of shps are not made by a single value. The tempest was worthless and this treatment was needed for a LONG time. They probably have pland to make the fleet temepst have a different role, the same wayt hat the navy geddon and navy domi have different focus than their t1 grampas. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Ellendras Silver CrashCat Corporation 172	Posted - 2015.06.25 12:07:47 - [469] - Quote ok i have to post this... CCP is nerfing all droneboats to oblivion because of one broken hull. not too long ago you guys rebalanced the drones and now you are nerfing it just because one hull is severly broken, the Ishtar what is your solution. nerf DDA`s and nerf 3 out of the 4 sentry drones (the fourth is hardly ever used) damaging ALL other drone ships from medium to hard. please dont implement the DDA and sentry changes and JUST fix the Ishtar make it a deadly ships with heavy drones but NOT sentries and the problem is SOLVED your welcome CCP [u]Carpe noctem[/u]
TinkerHell Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory. 159	Posted - 2015.06.25 12:41:49 - [470] - Quote Dez Affinity wrote: You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. This. You just nerfed the dps of a curse to nerf the ishtar. Did the Curse really need its dps nerfed? Focus your nerfs on the ship and not a weapon system that is used by many balanced ships. You cant say that Heavy/Med/Light drones are overpowered....yet...you nerf their damage... Logic. Use it.
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2059	Posted - 2015.06.25 12:56:22 - [471] - Quote Ellendras Silver wrote: ok i have to post this... CCP is nerfing all droneboats to oblivion because of one broken hull. not too long ago you guys rebalanced the drones and now you are nerfing it just because one hull is severly broken, the Ishtar what is your solution. nerf DDA`s and nerf 3 out of the 4 sentry drones (the fourth is hardly ever used) damaging ALL other drone ships from medium to hard. please dont implement the DDA and sentry changes and JUST fix the Ishtar make it a deadly ships with heavy drones but NOT sentries and the problem is SOLVED your welcome CCP It is not only the ishtar. The drone boats are plain superior to other hulls on same class. Just compare the capabilities of the dominix and geddon against other battleships. The capability of fielding a lot of DPS with a great range and better tracking than large long range guns, while leavign the high slots free for neuts etc means they are a bit OP. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
TinkerHell Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory. 159	Posted - 2015.06.25 13:25:52 - [472] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: Ellendras Silver wrote: ok i have to post this... CCP is nerfing all droneboats to oblivion because of one broken hull. not too long ago you guys rebalanced the drones and now you are nerfing it just because one hull is severly broken, the Ishtar what is your solution. nerf DDA`s and nerf 3 out of the 4 sentry drones (the fourth is hardly ever used) damaging ALL other drone ships from medium to hard. please dont implement the DDA and sentry changes and JUST fix the Ishtar make it a deadly ships with heavy drones but NOT sentries and the problem is SOLVED your welcome CCP It is not only the ishtar. The drone boats are plain superior to other hulls on same class. Just compare the capabilities of the dominix and geddon against other battleships. The capability of fielding a lot of DPS with a great range and better tracking than large long range guns, while leavign the high slots free for neuts etc means they are a bit OP. So lets nerf the Tristan, Vexer, Myrm, Curse, Arbitrator, Pilgrim, Sentinel etc because a few ships use Sentry drones. Normal combat drones are stupidly easy to counter with smartbombs, especially in fleet warfare. A Geddon isnt 'superior' because of its drone bay. If you have drones that are OP on certain ships because they are complimented by the fact the Devs decided to give them DUMB tracking bonuses on the hulls in the first place surely you should address the bonuses of the ships. If needed nerf the weapon system, which is SENTRY drones and not DRONES. How would you feel if to nerf Beams they decided to nerf Pulses at the same time?
Mario Putzo 1437	Posted - 2015.06.25 13:34:46 - [473] - Quote <<< still doesn't understand why DDA's have to change when the issue is, and always has been Sentry Drones. The problem is a Cruiser sized ship fielding what amounts to Battleship sized weaponry...let us slap on some RHMLs on Cerbs and then tell us its not the weapon systems, but the Hull.
Schluffi Schluffelsen State War Academy Caldari State 46	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:09:11 - [474] - Quote There are so many interesting and well worked out proposals how to bring the ishtar + sentries in line with the other ships, this won't help imo - after hundreds of pages of feedback concerning the isthar I feel a bit disappointed.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1941	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:09:36 - [475] - Quote Why do some droneboat still have bonus to both projection (optimal) and application (tracking) on the same bonus slot? I can understand this happening for mobile drones when they get both speed and tracking since the speed would completely ruin their tracking potential but for an immobile sentry, it's not the case.
Mario Putzo 1437	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:24:27 - [476] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Why do some droneboat still have bonus to both projection (optimal) and application (tracking) on the same bonus slot? I can understand this happening for mobile drones when they get both speed and tracking since the speed would completely ruin their tracking potential but for an immobile sentry, it's not the case. Probably for the same reason Heavy Missiles got dumpstered with the Drake changes. CCP Rise and Fozzie aren't focused on balance, they are focused on shifting metas, where in one type of ship or weapons system is dominant and as such they push players into using said ship or weapon type. Heavy Missiles when they were nerfed sucked, their saving grace was sitting on the Drake whose other stats carried their shittiness. Also in before Heavy Missile chucking ships become flavor of the month...hopefully it doesn't turn out to be flavor of the next three years like Drones Online has been.
Ellendras Silver CrashCat Corporation 173	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:37:49 - [477] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: Ellendras Silver wrote: ok i have to post this... CCP is nerfing all droneboats to oblivion because of one broken hull. not too long ago you guys rebalanced the drones and now you are nerfing it just because one hull is severly broken, the Ishtar what is your solution. nerf DDA`s and nerf 3 out of the 4 sentry drones (the fourth is hardly ever used) damaging ALL other drone ships from medium to hard. please dont implement the DDA and sentry changes and JUST fix the Ishtar make it a deadly ships with heavy drones but NOT sentries and the problem is SOLVED your welcome CCP It is not only the ishtar. The drone boats are plain superior to other hulls on same class. Just compare the capabilities of the dominix and geddon against other battleships. The capability of fielding a lot of DPS with a great range and better tracking than large long range guns, while leavign the high slots free for neuts etc means they are a bit OP. give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way [u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Mario Putzo 1438	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:45:18 - [478] - Quote Ellendras Silver wrote: give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png) (and im sure if you ignored Catalyst/Brutix ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers/BCs as well)
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1455	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:46:41 - [479] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: Ellendras Silver wrote: give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png) (and im sure if you ignored Catalyst ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers as well) Vexors are popular gankboats too. What would be more interesting is removing structure bashes from these numbers. They skew it hardcore to lasers and drones for obvious reasons.
Mario Putzo 1438	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:51:32 - [480] - Quote afkalt wrote: Mario Putzo wrote: Ellendras Silver wrote: give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png) (and im sure if you ignored Catalyst ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers as well) Vexors are popular gankboats too. What would be more interesting is removing structure bashes from these numbers. They skew it hardcore to lasers and drones for obvious reasons. Why would you ignore structure bashing, if people are using drones over other weapons for that in such numbers that it heavily skews total damage, then that is only another example of why drones are heads and shoulders above the competition.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1455	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:54:25 - [481] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: afkalt wrote: Mario Putzo wrote: Ellendras Silver wrote: give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png) (and im sure if you ignored Catalyst ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers as well) Vexors are popular gankboats too. What would be more interesting is removing structure bashes from these numbers. They skew it hardcore to lasers and drones for obvious reasons. Why would you ignore structure bashing, if people are using drones over other weapons for that in such numbers that it heavily skews total damage, then that is only another example of why drones are heads and shoulders above the competition. Because of the no ammo/no cycle thing, it's why lasers are up there too. Even if they are crap at everything else, they will still be economically superior/easier on the pilot/afk-able. Or show the values split out, I don't mind. Lumping it together can easily mask poor systems - for example if something is ONLY used to grid HPs but never used in ship to ship combat, that's a huge problem - lumping it all as one masks this big time.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1941	Posted - 2015.06.25 15:06:48 - [482] - Quote afkalt wrote: Mario Putzo wrote: afkalt wrote: Mario Putzo wrote: Ellendras Silver wrote: give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png) (and im sure if you ignored Catalyst ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers as well) Vexors are popular gankboats too. What would be more interesting is removing structure bashes from these numbers. They skew it hardcore to lasers and drones for obvious reasons. Why would you ignore structure bashing, if people are using drones over other weapons for that in such numbers that it heavily skews total damage, then that is only another example of why drones are heads and shoulders above the competition. Because of the no ammo/no cycle thing, it's why lasers are up there too. Even if they are crap at everything else, they will still be economically superior/easier on the pilot/afk-able. Or show the values split out, I don't mind. Lumping it together can easily mask poor systems - for example if something is ONLY used to grid HPs but never used in ship to ship combat, that's a huge problem - lumping it all as one masks this big time. Except in this case, we know this isn't the case. Bashes don't hide any weapon system lack of use in actual combat.
Mario Putzo 1438	Posted - 2015.06.25 15:28:45 - [483] - Quote afkalt wrote: Because of the no ammo/no cycle thing, it's why lasers are up there too. Even if they are crap at everything else, they will still be economically superior/easier on the pilot/afk-able. Or show the values split out, I don't mind. Lumping it together can easily mask poor systems - for example if something is ONLY used to grid HPs but never used in ship to ship combat, that's a huge problem - lumping it all as one masks this big time. You mean something like this (CCP Quant says this is strictly PVP damage) http://i.imgur.com/yfeQpc4.jpg Check out Combat Drone. #1 in BS Damage #1 in Cruiser Damage #1 in HAC Damage ~Tied #1 in CBC Damage ~Tied #2 in Frigate Damage (with Lasers and Projectiles) On top of this, they are good for smashing structures, they are good for PVE, they are economical, they are easy to use (AFKTars!) Head and shoulders above the rest of the crowd across most subcapital hull sizes, its not even a contest, and what do all those #1's have in common. The ability to field Sentry Drones. Frigates can't and drones are not the #1 damage type...coincidence? Perhaps its time to knuckle down on sentry damage, remove them from Cruisers and HACs where its not even a contest comparatively...at least on BS and BC the damage is more comparable to other weapon types and recent tweaks to sentries may put them more in line on these hulls anyway.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 46	Posted - 2015.06.25 15:55:38 - [484] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: afkalt wrote: Because of the no ammo/no cycle thing, it's why lasers are up there too. Even if they are crap at everything else, they will still be economically superior/easier on the pilot/afk-able. Or show the values split out, I don't mind. Lumping it together can easily mask poor systems - for example if something is ONLY used to grid HPs but never used in ship to ship combat, that's a huge problem - lumping it all as one masks this big time. You mean something like this (CCP Quant says this is strictly PVP damage) http://i.imgur.com/yfeQpc4.jpg Check out Combat Drone. #1 in BS Damage #1 in Cruiser Damage #1 in HAC Damage ~Tied #1 in CBC Damage ~Tied #2 in Frigate Damage (with Lasers and Projectiles) On top of this, they are good for smashing structures, they are good for PVE, they are economical, they are easy to use (AFKTars!) Head and shoulders above the rest of the crowd across most subcapital hull sizes, its not even a contest, and what do all those #1's have in common. The ability to field Sentry Drones. Frigates can't and drones are not the #1 damage type...coincidence? Perhaps its time to knuckle down on sentry damage, remove them from Cruisers and HACs where its not even a contest comparatively...at least on BS and BC the damage is more comparable to other weapon types and recent tweaks to sentries may put them more in line on these hulls anyway. That data is 1.5 years old. Since then Ishtars have lost about 1/3 of their sentry damage, Sentries and now DDAs have had nerfs lowering drone dps across the board. I am not saying CCP doesn't need to keep an eye on it, but it likely needs to rest for several months and see what damage a chart for 2015 looks like after all the changes so far this year.
gascanu Bearing Srl. 213	Posted - 2015.06.25 15:55:49 - [485] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: afkalt wrote: Because of the no ammo/no cycle thing, it's why lasers are up there too. Even if they are crap at everything else, they will still be economically superior/easier on the pilot/afk-able. Or show the values split out, I don't mind. Lumping it together can easily mask poor systems - for example if something is ONLY used to grid HPs but never used in ship to ship combat, that's a huge problem - lumping it all as one masks this big time. You mean something like this (CCP Quant says this is strictly PVP damage) http://i.imgur.com/yfeQpc4.jpg Check out Combat Drone. #1 in BS Damage #1 in Cruiser Damage #1 in HAC Damage ~Tied #1 in CBC Damage ~Tied #2 in Frigate Damage (with Lasers and Projectiles) On top of this, they are good for smashing structures, they are good for PVE, they are economical, they are easy to use (AFKTars!) ........................................ . yea, they are good and easy to use; now let's make them bad and hard to use and the game will be better...
Mario Putzo 1438	Posted - 2015.06.25 16:05:49 - [486] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: Mario Putzo wrote: afkalt wrote: Because of the no ammo/no cycle thing, it's why lasers are up there too. Even if they are crap at everything else, they will still be economically superior/easier on the pilot/afk-able. Or show the values split out, I don't mind. Lumping it together can easily mask poor systems - for example if something is ONLY used to grid HPs but never used in ship to ship combat, that's a huge problem - lumping it all as one masks this big time. You mean something like this (CCP Quant says this is strictly PVP damage) http://i.imgur.com/yfeQpc4.jpg Check out Combat Drone. #1 in BS Damage #1 in Cruiser Damage #1 in HAC Damage ~Tied #1 in CBC Damage ~Tied #2 in Frigate Damage (with Lasers and Projectiles) On top of this, they are good for smashing structures, they are good for PVE, they are economical, they are easy to use (AFKTars!) Head and shoulders above the rest of the crowd across most subcapital hull sizes, its not even a contest, and what do all those #1's have in common. The ability to field Sentry Drones. Frigates can't and drones are not the #1 damage type...coincidence? Perhaps its time to knuckle down on sentry damage, remove them from Cruisers and HACs where its not even a contest comparatively...at least on BS and BC the damage is more comparable to other weapon types and recent tweaks to sentries may put them more in line on these hulls anyway. That data is 1.5 years old. Since then Ishtars have lost about 1/3 of their sentry damage, Sentries and now DDAs have had nerfs lowering drone dps across the board. I am not saying CCP doesn't need to keep an eye on it, but it likely needs to rest for several months and see what damage a chart for 2015 looks like after all the changes so far this year. They have given us Data for this year. Droneboats are #1 in nearly every category according to CCP Fozzie in a statement he made not even a week ago.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 773	Posted - 2015.06.25 16:16:56 - [487] - Quote Drones are #1, but that does not mean drone boats are. Everything and it's dog can put out at least a few drones. That might skew those numbers just a tad.
Mario Putzo 1438	Posted - 2015.06.25 16:18:07 - [488] - Quote gascanu wrote: yea, they are good and easy to use; now let's make them bad and hard to use and the game will be better... Removing them from Cruisers would make the game better. You dont see frigs ripping around with RLML, or Cruisers with RHML do you? Let them do it, would the problem be with the hulls? Or would it be the fact you have ships fitting weaponry that is designed to specifically counter their like sized counterparts?
Mario Putzo 1438	Posted - 2015.06.25 16:19:25 - [489] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: Drones are #1, but that does not mean drone boats are. Everything and it's dog can put out at least a few drones. That might skew those numbers just a tad. and yet Fozzies list distinctively states that drone boats are #1, not drones. Cart before the horse and all that.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1456	Posted - 2015.06.25 16:23:10 - [490] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: afkalt wrote: Mario Putzo wrote: Why would you ignore structure bashing, if people are using drones over other weapons for that in such numbers that it heavily skews total damage, then that is only another example of why drones are heads and shoulders above the competition. Because of the no ammo/no cycle thing, it's why lasers are up there too. Even if they are crap at everything else, they will still be economically superior/easier on the pilot/afk-able. Or show the values split out, I don't mind. Lumping it together can easily mask poor systems - for example if something is ONLY used to grid HPs but never used in ship to ship combat, that's a huge problem - lumping it all as one masks this big time. Except in this case, we know this isn't the case. Bashes don't hide any weapon system lack of use in actual combat. My point remains in general terms in that HOW a weapon is used, what it shoots, is very relevant and -missing- data. For example, I suspect lasers aren't as well represented as the charts suggest because HP bashes are good for them. Is bashing PvP? Sure I suppose, but data like this isn't much use to discern actual combat balance....the data is too high level. To be clear, I'm not saying drones are fine - what I'm saying is that without lower granularity on the figures an accurate assessment of just how out of whack compared to others just isn't possible for us.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 46	Posted - 2015.06.25 16:32:07 - [491] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: Ellendras Silver wrote: give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png) (and im sure if you ignored Catalyst/Brutix ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers/BCs as well) I think you give the Myrmidon too much credit, I think because of ships like the VNI & Ishtar you are more likely to find other BCs used more than the Myrmidon. And wanting to discard a form of PvP damage, such as ganking, is to pull selective data to force a false conclusion. If other weapon systems are better than drones for ganking then that is a consideration in the balancing of weapon systems. Just as structure bashing can inflate numbers for drones and lasers, because they are better suited for grinding. Fleet combat is not the only combat, roaming gangs, small gangs, FW, gate camps all have slightly different game play. And while Ishtar's are widely used in fleets, you are more likely to see Vexor/VNI elsewhere for PvP. If you want to put thing into hull sizes T3 destroyers (no drones) hands down win the damage war for destroyers with projectiles being at the top. Also almost all the damage coming from T3 cruisers is non-drone damage, if you combined this with the HAC category the numbers get a lot closer and might even favor other weapons. If you combine all cruisers, drone win out, but projectile and hybrids are not as far off people would like to think. Again, I am not saying more balance is not needed, I just think people looking at damage charts and paper DPS numbers as the primary means to argue the case for drone/sentry nerf neglect the larger picture that CCP uses for balance. I am glad that CCP has mentioned that they think the AEGIS balance pass on Ishtars will be the last one for a while, because it will take time for people to adjust and new metas to come to light. A more interesting statistic would be damage divided by number of ships flown in a type. So you could see if the damage done category is inflated because of wide spread use of a ship. Thus another ship or weapon system might be more efficient at dealing damage, but is harder to fly, skill, or fit and thus not represented in the charts and summaries we have seen linked in this thread.
Mario Putzo 1438	Posted - 2015.06.25 16:34:12 - [492] - Quote I think Lasers are adequately represented, considering the "speed" of combat these days, and the kiteyfag approach to fleet PVP, add on top of that Amarr being notoriously limited in mid slot options, and you have a recipe for poor tracking and bad damage application, resulting in a low damage profile, and thus lack of interest from the theorycrafters who recognize it probably isn't worth the effort to use Lasers over other weapon systems who all have much better fitting options on their respective hulls. But that is neither here nor there, and probably a discussion for a different thread. If it were just one weapon type being left behind i think that this argument would have some merit, but its missiles, its projectiles, its hybrids, they just don't stack up against drone damage application, or the effective engagement ranges of drone in general. 3 years of balance tweaking, and still not balanced. More work required.
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2059	Posted - 2015.06.25 16:41:38 - [493] - Quote Ellendras Silver wrote: Kagura Nikon wrote: Ellendras Silver wrote: ok i have to post this... CCP is nerfing all droneboats to oblivion because of one broken hull. not too long ago you guys rebalanced the drones and now you are nerfing it just because one hull is severly broken, the Ishtar what is your solution. nerf DDA`s and nerf 3 out of the 4 sentry drones (the fourth is hardly ever used) damaging ALL other drone ships from medium to hard. please dont implement the DDA and sentry changes and JUST fix the Ishtar make it a deadly ships with heavy drones but NOT sentries and the problem is SOLVED your welcome CCP It is not only the ishtar. The drone boats are plain superior to other hulls on same class. Just compare the capabilities of the dominix and geddon against other battleships. The capability of fielding a lot of DPS with a great range and better tracking than large long range guns, while leavign the high slots free for neuts etc means they are a bit OP. give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way Youa re jsut bad at using logic. The fact that the ishtar is the only used ship does nto mean the other drone ships are not better than the non drone ships. IF ishtar is 1st in quality and the domi is second.. why would anyone use the domi? If you just REMOVE the ishtar from game, right now, other drone boat will replace it (very likely).. Checking the current status is a lousy and horrible way to annalyse game balance, any good game designer knows that, and raise as well :P ... . You need to predict the effect of changes and thin k what would happen IF.... "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Mario Putzo 1438	Posted - 2015.06.25 16:44:40 - [494] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: I think you give the Myrmidon too much credit, I think because of ships like the VNI & Ishtar you are more likely to find other BCs used more than the Myrmidon. And wanting to discard a form of PvP damage, such as ganking, is to pull selective data to force a false conclusion. If other weapon systems are better than drones for ganking then that is a consideration in the balancing of weapon systems. Just as structure bashing can inflate numbers for drones and lasers, because they are better suited for grinding. Fleet combat is not the only combat, roaming gangs, small gangs, FW, gate camps all have slightly different game play. And while Ishtar's are widely used in fleets, you are more likely to see Vexor/VNI elsewhere for PvP. Myrm has the top applied DPS, top range, while sporting the second highest tankability (next to Drake). I would say many folks don't give it enough credit. I don't discard the damage from ganking which is why i specifically mentioned it. Bashing to me is not PVP, it is PVE, if you are fighting another fleet at a POS, then its PVP...but you probably won't have your gang of Oracles on grid at that point either not that bashing is relevant really since it is going to be going the way of the dodo in coming months, and then Lasers will likely be buffed because well thats really all they have. I personally think the Ishtar is fine, it was fine months ago, it was fine last year, it is a good ship, and i will argue until i am blue in the face, Sentry Drones do not belong on Cruiser sized ships. They are the common thread between all the "strong" ships and why Vexors and VNIs are commonplace in small gang, and why Ishtars are the go to for big fleets, and why Gilas had their bonuses overhauled. I don't think the Ishtar should have been tweaked at all tbh, because its not the ship, it never was the ship. Its the Sentries.
James Baboli Novablasters 916	Posted - 2015.06.25 16:54:57 - [495] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: James Baboli wrote: So, Jessica Slow pointed out that the tempest now would have more effective turrets than a machariel if we are doing the math right.... Can someone double check me on this bit of math: tempest 6 x 1.25 / .625 = 12 Fleet pest 6 x 1.25 / .75 = 10 Machariel 7 x 1.25 / .75 = 11.6666 Vargur 4 x 2 / .75 = 10.6666 Maelstrom 8 /.75 = 10.66666 So the tempest has 2 more effective turrets than the fleet pest and roughly 2/5 of one more than a machariel, with the ability to fit 2 launcher in addition to the 12 effective turrets.... Is this intentional, overlooked or a math error I and Jessica made? Rise said there will be a pass on all the battleships soon. Probably they have other things planned for these ships. And it is NOT as if these ships were not massively superiro to tempest in other regards. For example EHP of fleet tempest is in a completely different level. The machariel has a falloff bonus that makes it effectively have MUCH higher DPS than the new tempest. BOTH have MORE low slots, and taht means MORE damage mods that neutralize the turret count. Stop spreadsheet PVP, the capability of shps are not made by a single value. The tempest was worthless and this treatment was needed for a LONG time. They probably have pland to make the fleet temepst have a different role, the same wayt hat the navy geddon and navy domi have different focus than their t1 grampas. I asked to make sure this was an intentional decision to have the tempest be the highest DPS projectile boat, beating a machariel and vargur, which are both in classes which usually see better DPS numbers than t1 hulls. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1941	Posted - 2015.06.25 17:02:31 - [496] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: Terra Chrall wrote: I think you give the Myrmidon too much credit, I think because of ships like the VNI & Ishtar you are more likely to find other BCs used more than the Myrmidon. And wanting to discard a form of PvP damage, such as ganking, is to pull selective data to force a false conclusion. If other weapon systems are better than drones for ganking then that is a consideration in the balancing of weapon systems. Just as structure bashing can inflate numbers for drones and lasers, because they are better suited for grinding. Fleet combat is not the only combat, roaming gangs, small gangs, FW, gate camps all have slightly different game play. And while Ishtar's are widely used in fleets, you are more likely to see Vexor/VNI elsewhere for PvP. Myrm has the top applied DPS, top range, while sporting the second highest tankability (next to Drake). I would say many folks don't give it enough credit. I don't discard the damage from ganking which is why i specifically mentioned it. Bashing to me is not PVP, it is PVE, if you are fighting another fleet at a POS, then its PVP...but you probably won't have your gang of Oracles on grid at that point either not that bashing is relevant really since it is going to be going the way of the dodo in coming months, and then Lasers will likely be buffed because well thats really all they have. I personally think the Ishtar is fine, it was fine months ago, it was fine last year, it is a good ship, and i will argue until i am blue in the face, Sentry Drones do not belong on Cruiser sized ships. They are the common thread between all the "strong" ships and why Vexors and VNIs are commonplace in small gang, and why Ishtars are the go to for big fleets, and why Gilas had their bonuses overhauled. I don't think the Ishtar should have been tweaked at all tbh, because its not the ship, it never was the ship. Its the Sentries. They could of solved the Ishtar issue by making a heavy drone brawler for example but instead of dramatically changing the ship direction toward anything but the current complete toolbox it is, they decided to inch their way to where they want it to be while the meta is completely one sided right now as this ship is more polyvalent than anything before. Every change will get more and more resistance by now because everybody gave in and bit the bullet and trained in the FOTY ship by now and will definately go "DON'T NERF ME BRO!!!" over it.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 46	Posted - 2015.06.25 17:10:55 - [497] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: Terra Chrall wrote: That data is 1.5 years old. Since then Ishtars have lost about 1/3 of their sentry damage, Sentries and now DDAs have had nerfs lowering drone dps across the board. I am not saying CCP doesn't need to keep an eye on it, but it likely needs to rest for several months and see what damage a chart for 2015 looks like after all the changes so far this year. They have given us Data for this year. Droneboats are #1 in nearly every category according to CCP Fozzie in a statement he made not even a week ago. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7KTN7aIgAEZNHJ.jpg:largeAlso CCP Quant has updated that graph it seems http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2rv6yl/damage_profiles_by_ship_group_and_weapon_type/ inculdes data up to Jan '15, so is missing only 5 months, but CCP Fozzie has filled us in on how changes in the past 5 months have progressed......more of the same. Thanks for the updated chart, too bad it includes 2 years of data the precedes the significant nerfs. Unfortunately the major Ishtar damage nerf came in March 2015 when it lost 25% damage bonus to sentries, then the nerf to all sentries dps, tracking, and range, and does not include this additional balance pass coming in July all of which have brought drone ship dps down, and the damage of the Ishtar the most significantly. We need to see damage charts for July through December of 2015 to see if there is has been a change made. And if you keep the last 2 years in the chart it skews current balance as it has 2 years of favored metas that obfuscate what damage types are really dominant. It might still be drones, but these current charts can't tell us that. Also there is a screen shot of Fozzie posting a list of drone ships leading PvP damage for the month, but I don't see a date so do not know what time period is represented by the comment.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 645	Posted - 2015.06.25 17:11:21 - [498] - Quote My only issue with the DDA nerf, is now the Ishkur sucks even more. Use to be the the Ishkur was the go to T2 drone frig. Now it has been overshadowed by the Tristan, Algos, Astero, and Worm; which none are T2.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 46	Posted - 2015.06.25 17:30:09 - [499] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: Terra Chrall wrote: I think you give the Myrmidon too much credit, I think because of ships like the VNI & Ishtar you are more likely to find other BCs used more than the Myrmidon. And wanting to discard a form of PvP damage, such as ganking, is to pull selective data to force a false conclusion. If other weapon systems are better than drones for ganking then that is a consideration in the balancing of weapon systems. Just as structure bashing can inflate numbers for drones and lasers, because they are better suited for grinding. Fleet combat is not the only combat, roaming gangs, small gangs, FW, gate camps all have slightly different game play. And while Ishtar's are widely used in fleets, you are more likely to see Vexor/VNI elsewhere for PvP. Myrm has the top applied DPS, top range, while sporting the second highest tankability (next to Drake). I would say many folks don't give it enough credit. I don't discard the damage from ganking which is why i specifically mentioned it. Bashing to me is not PVP, it is PVE, if you are fighting another fleet at a POS, then its PVP...but you probably won't have your gang of Oracles on grid at that point either not that bashing is relevant really since it is going to be going the way of the dodo in coming months, and then Lasers will likely be buffed because well thats really all they have. I personally think the Ishtar is fine, it was fine months ago, it was fine last year, it is a good ship, and i will argue until i am blue in the face, Sentry Drones do not belong on Cruiser sized ships. They are the common thread between all the "strong" ships and why Vexors and VNIs are commonplace in small gang, and why Ishtars are the go to for big fleets, and why Gilas had their bonuses overhauled. I don't think the Ishtar should have been tweaked at all tbh, because its not the ship, it never was the ship. Its the Sentries. I was not arguing that the Myrmidon is not a strong ship, I was arguing that it is not likely used as much as other BCs right now. My example of structure basing was one of comparison only. I think Sentries are only part of the problem. The problem is there is no other ranged drone and that is why I am against limiting their use on cruisers. I have not seen a lot of Vexors using sentries due to limited bandwidth and bay, they are very limiting there. VNI seem to use both mobile and sentries but in most of my encounters it is mobile drones. Mobile drones are viable and contribute a lot to the damage charts, but are better suited for gang, low sec, and FW where smart bombing firewall ships are less common. And being slow, destructible, and having to travel are significant limitations. Sentries are needed to round out drone boat attack profiles. Removing them from cruisers might be the long term solution but there has to be a replacement option that makes sense first.
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2059	Posted - 2015.06.25 17:31:52 - [500] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Kagura Nikon wrote: James Baboli wrote: So, Jessica Slow pointed out that the tempest now would have more effective turrets than a machariel if we are doing the math right.... Can someone double check me on this bit of math: tempest 6 x 1.25 / .625 = 12 Fleet pest 6 x 1.25 / .75 = 10 Machariel 7 x 1.25 / .75 = 11.6666 Vargur 4 x 2 / .75 = 10.6666 Maelstrom 8 /.75 = 10.66666 So the tempest has 2 more effective turrets than the fleet pest and roughly 2/5 of one more than a machariel, with the ability to fit 2 launcher in addition to the 12 effective turrets.... Is this intentional, overlooked or a math error I and Jessica made? Rise said there will be a pass on all the battleships soon. Probably they have other things planned for these ships. And it is NOT as if these ships were not massively superiro to tempest in other regards. For example EHP of fleet tempest is in a completely different level. The machariel has a falloff bonus that makes it effectively have MUCH higher DPS than the new tempest. BOTH have MORE low slots, and taht means MORE damage mods that neutralize the turret count. Stop spreadsheet PVP, the capability of shps are not made by a single value. The tempest was worthless and this treatment was needed for a LONG time. They probably have pland to make the fleet temepst have a different role, the same wayt hat the navy geddon and navy domi have different focus than their t1 grampas. I asked to make sure this was an intentional decision to have the tempest be the highest DPS projectile boat, beating a machariel and vargur, which are both in classes which usually see better DPS numbers than t1 hulls. the vargur was already behind the maelstrom.... there is no hard rule on that. Probably they will make the fleet version be DIFFERENT. The machariel itself already has lots of things on its favor, mobility, warp speed.. HUGE falloff. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Mario Putzo 1439	Posted - 2015.06.25 17:46:57 - [501] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: I think Sentries are only part of the problem. The problem is there is no other ranged drone and that is why I am against limiting their use on cruisers. I have not seen a lot of Vexors using sentries due to limited bandwidth and bay, they are very limiting there. VNI seem to use both mobile and sentries but in most of my encounters it is mobile drones. Mobile drones are viable and contribute a lot to the damage charts, but are better suited for gang, low sec, and FW where smart bombing firewall ships are less common. And being slow, destructible, and having to travel are significant limitations. Sentries are needed to round out drone boat attack profiles. Removing them from cruisers might be the long term solution but there has to be a replacement option that makes sense first. Which is why I don't understand nerfing DDA's to fix a symptom that is result of Sentries themselves. Nerfing all drones because 1 set of drones is very strong on certain ships seems stupid to me, and is an ill placed change. That would be like nerfing all Heavy Missiles because 1 ship became super popular using them...oh wait. If the issue is sentries, and you know it is sentries, all the data tells you it is sentries...fix sentries. Personally id rather just see sentries scrapped and drones be given a "mode" option, one that allows them to be "mobile" with more rof and better tracking, and a "sentry" option that leaves them immobile with higher Optimal, and better Alpha. Leaves folks with Midslot option, do I fit for more drone speed so my drones can get on targets faster and apply their DPS quicker in mobile mode...or do I fit Omni so my drones have better tracking/optimal in sentry mode. then tier them lights for frigs/dessie (hull bonused for lights) mediums for Cruiser/BC (hull bonused for meds) heavies for BS (hull bonused for heavies) ships can use drones to their bandwidth still, but will not recive bonuses outside their size range similar to how other weapon systems work on different ship sizes if I ran the zoo..
Rat Scout Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 16	Posted - 2015.06.25 19:04:58 - [502] - Quote Hey CCP, why not remove a midslot from Dominix as well and give it a low slot?! Eh EH EEEEHHHH?!
shananigans Lowsey Pirates Inc. Easily Excited 0	Posted - 2015.06.25 19:07:21 - [503] - Quote Why is my carrier being hurt with this!? Capital drone boats need a hug.
Shuckstar Taking Inc 325	Posted - 2015.06.25 19:32:04 - [504] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Dez Affinity wrote: You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. Whack an Ishtar. To whack the Ishtar as you say, all you needed to do is remove the ability to have sentry drones. CCP Greyscale wrote:"OK, I've read every post up to page 200, and we're getting to a point in this thread where there's not a lot of new concerns or suggestions being brought up. There will be future threads (and future blogs) as we tune details, but for now I want to thank you for all of your constructive input, and wish you a good weekend :)"
Ellendras Silver CrashCat Corporation 173	Posted - 2015.06.25 20:23:49 - [505] - Quote afkalt wrote: Mario Putzo wrote: Ellendras Silver wrote: give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png) (and im sure if you ignored Catalyst ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers as well) Vexors are popular gankboats too. What would be more interesting is removing structure bashes from these numbers. They skew it hardcore to lasers and drones for obvious reasons. they are but not because they are OP but because they are fast to get into [u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Ellendras Silver CrashCat Corporation 173	Posted - 2015.06.25 20:24:38 - [506] - Quote shananigans wrote: Why is my carrier being hurt with this!? Capital drone boats need a hug. yes, this is also why i am against this change [u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Schluffi Schluffelsen State War Academy Caldari State 46	Posted - 2015.06.25 21:37:00 - [507] - Quote Shuckstar wrote: CCP Rise wrote: Dez Affinity wrote: You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. Whack an Ishtar. To whack the Ishtar as you say, all you needed to do is remove the ability to have sentry drones. Not even need to do that, just limit their total drone bay so that they need to make a choice and that they can only take one flight of sentries.
Portmanteau Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2015.06.25 22:02:41 - [508] - Quote Jackie Fisher wrote: Problem: Ishtar Solution: Nerf everything! Just as well you guys didn't chose medicine as a career: Patient: I've got an ingrowing toenail Dr CCP : No problem, we'll just amputate both legs, hmm, better take the arms as well just to be safe. Not sure you really need two eyes either you clearly have'nt seen the amount of tristans flying about FW space
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 461	Posted - 2015.06.25 22:34:20 - [509] - Quote As a year and a half old player who spent a significant portion of that time training drones, Gallente cruisers and associated skills... CCP please stop. I understand that the sentry Ishtar blobs were a problem, but please stop hurting my drone boats. Removing a mid slot will kill the shield kite Ishtar which is a great option for solo and small gang PvP. If you must continue this droneboat genocide please be so kind as to inform me of which race/ship class you plan to bestow your favor upon next, so that I can arrange my skill queue accordingly. Shall I start playing TenguQuest, or is that getting nerfed too?
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 461	Posted - 2015.06.25 22:44:00 - [510] - Quote Soldarius wrote: I'm going to repost my suggestion from the last 2 iterations of Ishtar "balancing". Increase the bandwidth requirement of Sentries. Whatever ship you want to be able to field sentries, give it enough bandwidth to field 5. This does not include the Ishtar. A kiting heavy drone Ishtar might actually be interesting. Maybe. It is quite good, 3 DDA, nano/overdrive, DCU, warp disruptor MWD and 3 slots for shield tank. Losing a mid will kill that fit though, you'll have to do an armor fit.
Nergal Hurrian Orange Lazarus Petroleum Inc. Surely You're Joking 4	Posted - 2015.06.25 23:34:14 - [511] - Quote Ishtar sentry bonuses ARE the problem, not the DDAs. Loss of a mid slot also makes it nigh impossible to have a workable shield fit Ishtar for PvP. Rise, this is one of the most senseless and uninnovative changes to game proposed that I've ever seen. Hundreds of people are pointing out the problem, yet you manage to miss the point. Does CCP HR have a general comprehension test that a candidate is expected to fail before they get considered as hires?
Gyges Skyeye Delusions of Adequacy Get Off My Lawn 28	Posted - 2015.06.26 02:00:44 - [512] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. Ok, if we aren't going to address the fact that the of all the HAC's in the game, the Ishtar gets access to battleship class weapons with all the HAC defensive bonuses intact, can we at least de facto balance or item lock the ishtar around this capability so we can carve away at some of the toxic gameplay elements it is creating? I can understand that you want drones to be their own snowflake of a weapon system, not limited by ship class. Fine. Lets call a pig a pig. No one uses the high slots of the ishtar for weapons systems in a meaningful capacity. Supporting the ability of people to fit the ishtar in this way is leaving superfluous fitting power that is inflating the power level of the ishtar's other use cases. Take the hardpoints of the Ishtar behind the barn and shoot them. Do the same with the fitting power allocated for weapons over utility high's. Next lets kill two birds with one stone. We can add back in the ability of Ishtars to participate in high slot style F1 warfare by giving it a role (or gallente cruiser) bonus to Sentry Drone velocity allowing and forcing sentry drones to move with the Ishtar. Cut power from sentry damage, tracking, range, and hp bonuses as necessary. This would serve to give the ishtar ship hull access to a turret style of warfare while eliminating the edge case of Ishtars dropping sentry drones, scooting off in a distant direction applying damage all the while with everyone else unable to do a f-cking thing about it. This would still leave the Ishtar as an immensely flexible ship. It would have in space selectable turret-analog and damage type capabilities similar to arty ships while still being able to participate in regular (heavy and down) drone warfare. It would at the same time eliminate the pants-on-head ******** damage projection situations the stationary sentry Ishtar is capable of producing.
Portmanteau Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2015.06.26 02:24:41 - [513] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: As a year and a half old player who spent a significant portion of that time training drones, Gallente cruisers and associated skills... CCP please stop. I understand that the sentry Ishtar blobs were a problem, but please stop hurting my drone boats. Removing a mid slot will kill the shield kite Ishtar which is a great option for solo and small gang PvP. If you must continue this droneboat genocide please be so kind as to inform me of which race/ship class you plan to bestow your favor upon next, so that I can arrange my skill queue accordingly. Shall I start playing TenguQuest, or is that getting nerfed too? ur drone boats are very strong. U will adapt or u will quit. Both options are ok.
Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4460	Posted - 2015.06.26 02:35:07 - [514] - Quote Nergal Hurrian wrote: Rise, this is one of the most senseless and uninnovative changes to game proposed that I've ever seen. 5th time's the charm for the Ishtar, right? shananigans wrote: Why is my carrier being hurt with this!? Capital drone boats need a hug. Because carriers haven't been nerfed enough...? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
The Sinister Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 99	Posted - 2015.06.26 06:30:53 - [515] - Quote To CCP Rise: This is my girl friends response on the ishtar subject and I quote: " Is this guy dumb or something? Why not just take the what ever u call it bonus to sentry drones away from the damn thing and get it over with, I think he dosnt get laid very often! Men stop thinking straight when that happens!" And of course I LOL! And she DOSNT play the game...
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1459	Posted - 2015.06.26 06:37:11 - [516] - Quote Rise, maybe next time split the ship nerf thread away from the module nerf one, apparently people don't understand they're separate.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 296	Posted - 2015.06.26 06:41:18 - [517] - Quote Hey Rise, if 125mb bandwidth is not a problem on Ishtar can we have +25mb on Stratios? "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 376	Posted - 2015.06.26 06:59:25 - [518] - Quote afkalt wrote: Rise, maybe next time split the ship nerf thread away from the module nerf one, apparently people don't understand they're separate. Then it's a conspiracy. I do think the easiest way to explain it is it is a more powerful nerf the more drone amps a ship fits. Tristans and algoses fit maybe one drone amp and so they get a 4% bonus dps loss. Most medium ships including armor ishtars fit one or two and they lose 7.5 bonus drone dps. Shield ishtars, gilas and rattlesnakes are losing the most (assuming CCP aren't as stupid as I think they are they meant that): three amp fits lose 10% and the few four amp fits lose 11.5%. Keep in mind that's not dps lost, that's bonus dps lost. Actual dps change is small but significant.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1459	Posted - 2015.06.26 07:08:34 - [519] - Quote It'll slow down my L4 domi alts a little, but really...for a 3 month train I'm not sure they should be bossing the L4s like they are
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2015.06.26 08:07:59 - [520] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: Hey Rise, if 125mb bandwidth is not a problem on Ishtar can we have +25mb on Stratios? Sure. Can i have the pwgen and the cpu of the stratios for my ishtar? Ah and the speed too please.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 754	Posted - 2015.06.26 08:38:46 - [521] - Quote Ellendras Silver wrote: afkalt wrote: Mario Putzo wrote: Ellendras Silver wrote: give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png) (and im sure if you ignored Catalyst ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers as well) Vexors are popular gankboats too. What would be more interesting is removing structure bashes from these numbers. They skew it hardcore to lasers and drones for obvious reasons. they are but not because they are OP but because they are fast to get into Must be female logic. Other cruisers take longer to get into? Phuuhlease. Dron gonna dron Mario Putzo wrote: Which is why I don't understand nerfing DDA's to fix a symptom that is result of Sentries themselves. It it all of the drones, with DDAs being the cause - drone attributes were not adjusted on their introduction to my knowledge, while DDAs received the same bonus as the other damage mod types. // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] // [Cruisers Online]
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 296	Posted - 2015.06.26 08:43:41 - [522] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: Sure. Can i have the pwgen and the cpu of the stratios for my ishtar? Ah and the speed too please. Do I have to mark my post as irony or did you not get it such as Rise? Because Rise still not get it what is wrong with Ishtar. It will end same way as drake and HMLs I presume. "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2015.06.26 08:44:17 - [523] - Quote afkalt wrote: Honestly, I'd let the slot change pan out a bit before nerfing DDA. I really think the slot change might be enough. Are you a ghost?
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 754	Posted - 2015.06.26 08:47:12 - [524] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: This is not true. Right now, Ishtar's are among the best sniping cruisers for the applied damage done. With the proposed AEGIS changes they will do the following using 3x DDA IIs, 2 OTE II, 2 DLA II: Curator: ~480 DPS @ 78km/17km Bouncer: ~450 DPS @ 67km/76km Warden: ~435 DPS @ 112km/59km Definitely a top sniping cruiser. With new missile mods the Cerberus will be equally high on the list with a 20% DPS loss for choosing selection type so for EM over Kinetic you get 400 DPS instead of 500 DPS which is good DPS and pretty big range increase over the curator . An Eagle using 250mm railsguns with 3 Mag Stab II and 2 TC II with Optimal script does: CN Plutonium: ~390 @ 66km/25km CN Uranium: ~374 DPS @ 79km/25km CN Lead: ~299 DPS @ 105/25k Spike: ~260 DPS @ 190km/25km The Sacrilege does not have the range of Cerberus but with the new modules it should be able to snipe just fine. Using 3x BCS II + 1x missile velocity rig and 1x flight time rig (new missile modules will open greater range and application options). (Any damage type) HAM CN: 494 @ 44km HM Fury: 417 DPS @ 102km HM CN: 355 DPS @ 136k A Zealot with Heavy Beam Laser II 3x HS II, 1x TC II optimal script, 1x TE Ultraviolet: 470 DPS @ 49km/15km Standard: 417 DPS @ 56km/15km Aurora: 363 DPS @ 101km/15km And let's throw in an Arty HAC too for good measure. Vagabond using 650mm II, 3x Gyro II, 1x TC II optimal script, 1x TE II. RF EMP: 403DPS @ 15km/50k RF Nuclear: 168 DPS @ 48km/50km Tremor: 234 DPS @ 54km/50km Muninn with same setup: RF EMP: 403DPS @ 23k/33km RF Nuclear: 168 DPS @ 72km/33km Tremor: 234 DPS @ 82km/33km REKT. And just look at that sentry falloff - it is definitely not a cruiser weapons system. Ishtar will still compete with Battleships, not HACs. // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] // [Cruisers Online]
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2015.06.26 08:51:15 - [525] - Quote Altrue wrote: CCP Rise wrote: This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. I don't think people are asking for Ishtars to be unable to use sentries. Most people are asking for the removal of sentries bonuses on them. You know, the +25% damage, AND the +25% hitpoints, AND the +25% tracking, AND the +25% optimal. They would still be able to use sentries, but their stats would be more in-line with their actual balanced state. Nope that's not it. They should keep 10% to drone damage and hit points as they did before and just introduce medium sentry drones.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2015.06.26 08:57:29 - [526] - Quote Gremk wrote: At first I was slightly against the DDA change but I think this is actually going to be a good change. I think you should consider giving the Ishtar a slight bonus to hybrids in some way to really turn it into a heavy brawler and just be done with sentries on the Ishtar. I think there should be some consideration as to how the DDA will indirectly impact supers though... I think it'll be a good change for all other drone boats though. The only thing I find frustrating about drone boats is how easy it is to wipe their DPS when using heavies/medium/lights. Lowering the DPS is understandable but don't forget the HUGE drawbacks of having a DPS platform that is 100% destructible. Worst idea I read so far. -1
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2015.06.26 09:00:39 - [527] - Quote Harvey James wrote: some good changes, but i still think droneboats have a big slot advantage over ships needing turrets/hardpoints, so please consider reducing slots on all droneboats to -3 slots, guristas should also follow the - slots which they do not atm for some reason... Oops , and we have a new leader as the worst posting in this thread. -2
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2015.06.26 09:18:01 - [528] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: how about 10% damage per level and a falloff or tracking bonus for the tempest instead. rupture could do with the same kind of treatment btw (or you could fix projectiles lol). Yep something like this. Oh and you forgot the Hurricane
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2061	Posted - 2015.06.26 09:22:44 - [529] - Quote The Sinister wrote: To CCP Rise: This is my girl friends response on the ishtar subject and I quote: " Is this guy dumb or something? Why not just take the what ever u call it bonus to sentry drones away from the damn thing and get it over with, I think he dosnt get laid very often! Men stop thinking straight when that happens!" And of course I LOL! And she DOSNT play the game... And people are just ignoreing his job. What would you put in place of the ishtar bonuses? Come on, find me 4 relevant bonus to put on the ishtar that do not make it a split weapon system (That would make peopel whine as well). His job is not easy! THe only good solution someone gave was to create MEDIUM sentry drones with 10M bandwidth. Then reduce the bandwidth of all ISHTAR/navy vezor hulls to 50. Then make its base drone bonus increase a lot for medium drones (to keep almost same DPS with non sentries) and put the other bonuses on the new medium sentries, that can be balanced to compete with MEDIUM SIZED GUNS. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2061	Posted - 2015.06.26 09:23:44 - [530] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: how about 10% damage per level and a falloff or tracking bonus for the tempest instead. rupture could do with the same kind of treatment btw (or you could fix projectiles lol). Yep something like this. Oh and you forgot the Hurricane I think you might see something like that on the fleet tempest... one type of bonus is best for a clsoe range anti support battleship, the other makes it an excelent fleet ship. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 296	Posted - 2015.06.26 10:19:43 - [531] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: And people are just ignoreing his job. What would you put in place of the ishtar bonuses? Come on, find me 4 relevant bonus to put on the ishtar that do not make it a split weapon system (That would make peopel whine as well). Gallente Cruiser skill bonus per level: 7.5% Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage Heavy Assault Cruisers skill bonus per level: 2500m bonus to Drone operation range 5%/10% bonus to drone max velocity Ishtar has very good range and tracking with sentries. Alpha almost as HML BC. Capless, no ammo consuming, good rof, why using other hull than that? "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
TinkerHell Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory. 160	Posted - 2015.06.26 10:33:32 - [532] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: And people are just ignoreing his job. What would you put in place of the ishtar bonuses? Come on, find me 4 relevant bonus to put on the ishtar that do not make it a split weapon system (That would make peopel whine as well). His job is not easy! Surely it is alot easier and more logical to change the bonus on 1 ship than nerf the dps of every drone ship in the game that uses DDAs, even ships that use light, med, heavy drones that are not OP?
Anthar Thebess 1166	Posted - 2015.06.26 10:40:08 - [533] - Quote I know this is very , very bad idea . Ishtar slot layout : 5H / 3M / 7L Pure armor ship. As for the tempest. Base stat boost is nice, but instead of it can we get ability to mount 8 guns? Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1168	Posted - 2015.06.26 10:43:13 - [534] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: I know this is very , very bad idea . Ishtar slot layout : 5H / 3M / 7L Pure armor ship. As for the tempest. Base stat boost is nice, but instead of it can we get ability to mount 8 guns? Three mids is just an awful cruiser. I'd also rather fit six awesome turrets than eight mediocre ones. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 26	Posted - 2015.06.26 11:03:51 - [535] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: I know this is very , very bad idea . Ishtar slot layout : 5H / 3M / 7L Pure armor ship. As for the tempest. Base stat boost is nice, but instead of it can we get ability to mount 8 guns? And that would make the Maelstrom???? -1 And yes you where right it was a very bad idea. -1
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2931	Posted - 2015.06.26 11:04:16 - [536] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: And people are just ignoreing his job. What would you put in place of the ishtar bonuses? Come on, find me 4 relevant bonus to put on the ishtar that do not make it a split weapon system (That would make peopel whine as well). His job is not easy! Very True Kagura Nikon wrote: THe only good solution someone gave was to create MEDIUM sentry drones with 10M bandwidth. Then reduce the bandwidth of all ISHTAR/navy vezor hulls to 50. Then make its base drone bonus increase a lot for medium drones (to keep almost same DPS with non sentries) and put the other bonuses on the new medium sentries, that can be balanced to compete with MEDIUM SIZED GUNS. The problem i see with this, is they would need a 30% damage buff per level to maintain there current DPS, and cruiser sized sentries with a 30% damage buff would put medium range engagements in a worse place than they are now. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Gudu FlyingSoul Perkone Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.06.26 11:23:26 - [537] - Quote Hi there and sorry about my english, it's not my native language. I started play EVE on April 2014 and I'm a lover of the minion/petmaster/necro way on all mmo's so the Drone path was the natural choice. It's hard to train... without remaps a +8M drone learning it's a 160 days effort but u will have a versatile and solid style on early EVE stages. I think that monitor and balance ships it's healthy but nerf modules with supersets scope it's a bad idea with negative impact on early game (less that 2 years of skills points). This way to balance drones affects the game of those new players that choice that way. 5-6 months of veteran player's time is not a problem but on a noob its a drama. The same tree-level skillsets that concerns early game (gunnery/missile and small/medium focused) are less skill intensive (or similar in time). What would be the reaction of the new players if all the small/medium weapons were nerfed at the same time after 6 months? Advice: balance the f***ing ships, no the aspects of the game that concern hunge skillsets groups Regards
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 26	Posted - 2015.06.26 11:24:34 - [538] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: The Sinister wrote: To CCP Rise: This is my girl friends response on the ishtar subject and I quote: " Is this guy dumb or something? Why not just take the what ever u call it bonus to sentry drones away from the damn thing and get it over with, I think he dosnt get laid very often! Men stop thinking straight when that happens!" And of course I LOL! And she DOSNT play the game... And people are just ignoreing his job. What would you put in place of the ishtar bonuses? Come on, find me 4 relevant bonus to put on the ishtar that do not make it a split weapon system (That would make peopel whine as well). His job is not easy! THe only good solution someone gave was to create MEDIUM sentry drones with 10M bandwidth. Then reduce the bandwidth of all ISHTAR/navy vezor hulls to 50. Then make its base drone bonus increase a lot for medium drones (to keep almost same DPS with non sentries) and put the other bonuses on the new medium sentries, that can be balanced to compete with MEDIUM SIZED GUNS. I said and as many many other people post threads on the obvious solution for the Ishtar's rebalancing. There are two options: Option #1-- Introduce medium size sentry drones for use by Cruiser & Battlecruiser sized hulls that are balanced around the long range medium turret weapon systems, ala Medium Rails, Beams and Arties. Option #2--Make the Ishtar a heavy drone based ship, a direct upgraded version of the VNI. And while doing so, transform the EOS into what the 2013 Ishtar was. (No one should complain about a T2 BC being able to use T2 Sentries, right?) Heavy Drone Focused Ishtar Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to and Drone hit points and damage Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 5000m bonus to Drone operation range 7.5% bonus to Armor Repairer amount Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty
Kaivar Lancer Federal Defense Union 621	Posted - 2015.06.26 11:31:24 - [539] - Quote Why is the DDA getting nerfed? Nerf the hulls, not the module. Other drone boats like the Dragoon just got nerfed for no reason.
Gudu FlyingSoul Perkone Caldari State 1	Posted - 2015.06.26 11:40:50 - [540] - Quote Kaivar Lancer wrote: Why is the DDA getting nerfed? Nerf the hulls, not the module. ^This. LvL4 Domi/Ishtar runners, Carriers, Gila/Rattle on WH, Worm small PvP's, PvP alliance fleet doctrines, SoE exploration ships ... -+This is the impact that CCP is looking for?
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1461	Posted - 2015.06.26 11:43:15 - [541] - Quote Kaivar Lancer wrote: Why is the DDA getting nerfed? Nerf the hulls, not the module. Other drone boats like the Dragoon just got nerfed for no reason. THIS IS WHY
Evan Giants Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium 10	Posted - 2015.06.26 11:49:44 - [542] - Quote I got better idea. How about you add gun Bay to every other ships. Small gun is 5m3, med is 10m3, large is 25m3 Let other ships swap their guns accordingly to situation. And give every hacs bonus to all gun sizes. Also optimal range bonus. This will allow other hac to get on Ishtar level because they will finally have bs level weapon bonus and versatile. Or how about remove goddamn sentry bonus on Ishtar. And replace optimal range with drones velocity bonus instead.
Masao Kurata Perkone Caldari State 259	Posted - 2015.06.26 12:07:03 - [543] - Quote This works out to a 2.0%/3.8%/5%/5.6% reduction in DPS for 1/2/3/4 DDA2s and 1.6%/3.0%/4.0%/4.5% for 1/2/3/4 faction DDAs or to put it in terms of base dps, 2.5%/5,6%/8.4%/10% and 2%/4.6%/7.0%/8.5% for faction. Very reasonable change, it may even need a second helping in a patch or two. The Ishtar slot change I'm not so keen on, the flexibility of fitting options afforded by its layout was part of its unique flavour.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1182	Posted - 2015.06.26 12:36:10 - [544] - Quote Masao Kurata wrote: This works out to a 2.0%/3.8%/5%/5.6% reduction in DPS for 1/2/3/4 DDA2s and 1.6%/3.0%/4.0%/4.5% for 1/2/3/4 faction DDAs or to put it in terms of base dps, 2.5%/5,6%/8.4%/10% and 2%/4.6%/7.0%/8.5% for faction. Very reasonable change, it may even need a second helping in a patch or two. The Ishtar slot change I'm not so keen on, the flexibility of fitting options afforded by its layout was part of its unique flavour. it made it too flexible, something they are trying too fix Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 26	Posted - 2015.06.26 13:57:22 - [545] - Quote Masao Kurata wrote: This works out to a 2.0%/3.8%/5%/5.6% reduction in DPS for 1/2/3/4 DDA2s and 1.6%/3.0%/4.0%/4.5% for 1/2/3/4 faction DDAs or to put it in terms of base dps, 2.5%/5,6%/8.4%/10% and 2%/4.6%/7.0%/8.5% for faction. Very reasonable change, it may even need a second helping in a patch or two. The Ishtar slot change I'm not so keen on, the flexibility of fitting options afforded by its layout was part of its unique flavour. Agreed, it was the only good Gallente ship that could shield tank and that was what really made the Ishtar a cool, fun and flexible ship to fly. By no means did the 5/5/5 slot layout make the Ishtar OP, It was plain and simple it's ability to use BS caliber weapons without cap or fitting restraints. And now it appears CCP is taking that uniqueness away from the Ishtar and turning it into another (yawn) armor tank Gallente ship. I'm starting to get the feeling that CCP has no idea what they're doing when it comes to balancing this ship. I believe that it's only a matter of time for this controversial ship that caused more of a dilemma then any other ship in the history of eve , to end up being long forgotten in the realm of Oblivion (courtesy of CCP of course).
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2931	Posted - 2015.06.26 14:07:33 - [546] - Quote The shield Ishtar was OP, being able to fit 3~4 DDAs and a DC then have 5 mids for shield tank and prop mod. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 171	Posted - 2015.06.26 14:42:04 - [547] - Quote It's possible the new missile modules could be used to make a hard counter for the ishtar so maybe they are right, these changes are enough for now and look at it again in a few months.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1942	Posted - 2015.06.26 14:49:58 - [548] - Quote How broken would be a heavy drone brawler with let's says a web range bonus? Or a drone resist bonus to somewhat counter smartbombs?
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2063	Posted - 2015.06.26 15:15:57 - [549] - Quote Gudu FlyingSoul wrote: Kaivar Lancer wrote: Why is the DDA getting nerfed? Nerf the hulls, not the module. ^This. LvL4 Domi/Ishtar runners, Carriers, Gila/Rattle on WH, Worm small PvP's, PvP alliance fleet doctrines, SoE exploration ships ... -+This is the impact that CCP is looking for? Probably yes, and it is warranted. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2063	Posted - 2015.06.26 15:21:40 - [550] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: Kagura Nikon wrote: And people are just ignoreing his job. What would you put in place of the ishtar bonuses? Come on, find me 4 relevant bonus to put on the ishtar that do not make it a split weapon system (That would make peopel whine as well). Gallente Cruiser skill bonus per level: 7.5% Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage Heavy Assault Cruisers skill bonus per level: 2500m bonus to Drone operation range 5%/10% bonus to drone max velocity Ishtar has very good range and tracking with sentries. Alpha almost as HML BC. Capless, no ammo consuming, good rof, why using other hull than that? At least you cared to make a proposal. But look how non elegant it becomes with basically alist of several exceptions glued together. The problem is that they simply cannot make 4 reasonable and at same time generic bonuses for drones without making the ship OP. I probably would remove the sentry bonus completely and replace it for a large bonus to ewar drones. They are almsot not used.. so at least might change something. The only ship that should ever get sentry bonus shoudl be the domi on my opinion. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 463	Posted - 2015.06.26 15:41:25 - [551] - Quote Harvey James wrote: Masao Kurata wrote: This works out to a 2.0%/3.8%/5%/5.6% reduction in DPS for 1/2/3/4 DDA2s and 1.6%/3.0%/4.0%/4.5% for 1/2/3/4 faction DDAs or to put it in terms of base dps, 2.5%/5,6%/8.4%/10% and 2%/4.6%/7.0%/8.5% for faction. Very reasonable change, it may even need a second helping in a patch or two. The Ishtar slot change I'm not so keen on, the flexibility of fitting options afforded by its layout was part of its unique flavour. it made it too flexible, something they are trying too fix Shield Ishtar is fine aside from sentries. Can't fit web + point without losing way too much tank so you just get point; it's fast but still not as fast as some brawler cruisers and easy to catch with anything else, and even with 3 mids and 2 rigs for shield tank + DCU, armor Ishtar still has much more EHP. 100 MN AB is not great outside of big fleets either, it's slower than MWD and can't turn ever. Shield fitting options set the Ishtar apart from the VNI. It will now be exactly the same ship with a bigger drone bay and few more resists. Monkey with sentries all you want, even DDA's, but allow us to keep the Ishtar's fitting versatility.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1944	Posted - 2015.06.26 16:31:40 - [552] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: Jeremiah Saken wrote: Kagura Nikon wrote: And people are just ignoreing his job. What would you put in place of the ishtar bonuses? Come on, find me 4 relevant bonus to put on the ishtar that do not make it a split weapon system (That would make peopel whine as well). Gallente Cruiser skill bonus per level: 7.5% Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage Heavy Assault Cruisers skill bonus per level: 2500m bonus to Drone operation range 5%/10% bonus to drone max velocity Ishtar has very good range and tracking with sentries. Alpha almost as HML BC. Capless, no ammo consuming, good rof, why using other hull than that? At least you cared to make a proposal. But look how non elegant it becomes with basically alist of several exceptions glued together. The problem is that they simply cannot make 4 reasonable and at same time generic bonuses for drones without making the ship OP. I probably would remove the sentry bonus completely and replace it for a large bonus to ewar drones. They are almsot not used.. so at least might change something. The only ship that should ever get sentry bonus shoudl be the domi on my opinion. You could change the sentry tracking + optimal and make it armor rep amount. It would still be all galente.
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2063	Posted - 2015.06.26 17:32:16 - [553] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Kagura Nikon wrote: Jeremiah Saken wrote: Kagura Nikon wrote: And people are just ignoreing his job. What would you put in place of the ishtar bonuses? Come on, find me 4 relevant bonus to put on the ishtar that do not make it a split weapon system (That would make peopel whine as well). Gallente Cruiser skill bonus per level: 7.5% Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage Heavy Assault Cruisers skill bonus per level: 2500m bonus to Drone operation range 5%/10% bonus to drone max velocity Ishtar has very good range and tracking with sentries. Alpha almost as HML BC. Capless, no ammo consuming, good rof, why using other hull than that? At least you cared to make a proposal. But look how non elegant it becomes with basically alist of several exceptions glued together. The problem is that they simply cannot make 4 reasonable and at same time generic bonuses for drones without making the ship OP. I probably would remove the sentry bonus completely and replace it for a large bonus to ewar drones. They are almsot not used.. so at least might change something. The only ship that should ever get sentry bonus shoudl be the domi on my opinion. You could change the sentry tracking + optimal and make it armor rep amount. It would still be all galente. Yes but would be same bonus of deimos. I think ccp tries to avoid that. What they coudl do now is make a HULL resistance bonus like the hecate.... "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 297	Posted - 2015.06.26 17:58:04 - [554] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: At least you cared to make a proposal. But look how non elegant it becomes with basically alist of several exceptions glued together. The problem is that they simply cannot make 4 reasonable and at same time generic bonuses for drones without making the ship OP. I probably would remove the sentry bonus completely and replace it for a large bonus to ewar drones. They are almsot not used.. so at least might change something. The only ship that should ever get sentry bonus shoudl be the domi on my opinion. Problem with balancing Ishtar is nonequal bonuses with other HACs. All have 2+2 and role bouns, Ishtar has 3+2 and role bonus, Rise don't want to remove sentries from this cruiser but it has great range and tracking with them. So Gallente Cruiser skill bonus per level: 7.5% Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage Heavy Assault Cruisers skill bonus per level: 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage 4% to armor resistances (it may be too good with slots switching) Sentries will loose range and tracking but still be usefull. "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2931	Posted - 2015.06.26 18:13:37 - [555] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: Kagura Nikon wrote: At least you cared to make a proposal. But look how non elegant it becomes with basically alist of several exceptions glued together. The problem is that they simply cannot make 4 reasonable and at same time generic bonuses for drones without making the ship OP. I probably would remove the sentry bonus completely and replace it for a large bonus to ewar drones. They are almsot not used.. so at least might change something. The only ship that should ever get sentry bonus shoudl be the domi on my opinion. Problem with balancing Ishtar is nonequal bonuses with other HACs. All have 2+2 and role bouns, Ishtar has 3+2 and role bonus, Rise don't want to remove sentries from this cruiser but it has great range and tracking with them. So Gallente Cruiser skill bonus per level: 7.5% Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage Heavy Assault Cruisers skill bonus per level: 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage 4% to armor resistances (it may be too good with slots switching) Sentries will loose range and tracking but still be usefull. Good concept except Gallente doesn't get armor resistance bonuses for it's racial tanking bonus. Trade that for a 4% hull resistance like Kagura said and we might have a fun ship. It would need to stay 4/4/6 though. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 298	Posted - 2015.06.26 18:38:42 - [556] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: Good concept except Gallente doesn't get armor resistance bonuses for it's racial tanking bonus. Trade that for a 4% hull resistance like Kagura said and we might have a fun ship. It would need to stay 4/4/6 though. I meant to wrote hull resistance but was thinking about stratios...(which has +4 res from amarr...) "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
Irya Boone Never Surrender. 466	Posted - 2015.06.26 19:39:17 - [557] - Quote So you are nerfing DDA now and buffing missiles ? So we must all swap to caldari ships for pvp? you have a problem with understanding your game and how people play the game , I don't know how you read your datas and how you retrieve them from the game , but you really should play a little bit more your own game So i suppose that after the realease of the hecate you gonna nerf small railgun too? CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !! you shall all bow and pray BoB
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1474	Posted - 2015.06.26 21:52:31 - [558] - Quote Irya Boone wrote: So you are nerfing DDA now and buffing missiles ? So we must all swap to caldari ships for pvp? you have a problem with understanding your game and how people play the game , I don't know how you read your datas and how you retrieve them from the game , but you really should play a little bit more your own game So i suppose that after the realease of the hecate you gonna nerf small railgun too? Nah, the missile buff was a bait and switch. Never not nerf caldari.
Alyxportur From Our Cold Dead Hands 96	Posted - 2015.06.26 23:01:38 - [559] - Quote Quote: The problem: Ishtars are too good. They are squashing out diversity in several environments because of their excellent damage projection and solid survivability Source: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla/
Alexis Nightwish 293	Posted - 2015.06.26 23:07:07 - [560] - Quote afkalt wrote: Irya Boone wrote: So you are nerfing DDA now and buffing missiles ? So we must all swap to caldari ships for pvp? you have a problem with understanding your game and how people play the game , I don't know how you read your datas and how you retrieve them from the game , but you really should play a little bit more your own game So i suppose that after the realease of the hecate you gonna nerf small railgun too? Nah, the missile buff was a bait and switch. Never not nerf caldari. To elaborate on what afk said, it's true missiles are getting application modules, but the rigs that we used to use for application will now be stacking penalized so you'll have to sacrifice one mid and/or low slot just to have the same application you do now. So are you going to drop tackle, tank (most missile boats are shield, and the Amarr ones have few mids), or DPS? It's lose-lose-lose, but CCP will call it a win. CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge EVE Online's "I win!" Button Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1950	Posted - 2015.06.27 06:17:03 - [561] - Quote Alyxportur wrote: Quote: The problem: Ishtars are too good. They are squashing out diversity in several environments because of their excellent damage projection and solid survivability Source: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla/ The fact that the change brought with this article didn't change the ships' projection (a sentry was nerfed but it was for all sentry boat, not just to problem ship according to that very post) or it's survivability. Why this statement didn't lead to either hacking away at the opti + tracking combo bonus and/or a nerf to it's survivability (like increased base sigs for example) is really making my head spin.
Gabriel Karade Noir. No Not Believing 257	Posted - 2015.06.27 11:38:34 - [562] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes. First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE, we are going to make the following changes: -1 mid slot, +1 low slot Decrease in mass from 1,100,000 to 1060000 Decrease in max velocity from 185m/s to 175m/s Agility going from .52 to .565 Power grid lowered from 780 to 740 Overall these changes should put a lot of pressure on speed based, shield fits (especially those using over-sized afterburners), forcing a tougher choice between the speed you get with shields and the survivability you get with armor. Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows: Drone Damage Amplifier I - 15% (was 16%) Drone Damage Amplifier II - 20.5% (was 23%) Dread Guristas Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Sentient Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Unit D-34343's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 24.5% (was (26.5%) Unit F-435454's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.15% (was 27.15%) Unit P-343554's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.8% (was 27.8%) Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 26.5% (was 28.5%) And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes. We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level. Will the Ishtar be balanced after this? Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know! Now that shield Ishtars are getting their justly deserved kick in the nads, I'm tempted to do something radical... and train Heavy Assault Cruisers Level I Armour Ishtar \0/ (though, I still maintain you should still port some shield hp's across into armour...) War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2015.06.27 11:45:49 - [563] - Quote Gabriel Karade wrote: Armour Ishtar \0/ (though, I still maintain you should still port some shield hp's across into armour...) It lacks speed and pgen for a good armor brawler
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems 361	Posted - 2015.06.27 17:12:36 - [564] - Quote Irya Boone wrote: So you are nerfing DDA now and buffing missiles ? So we must all swap to caldari ships for pvp? you have a problem with understanding your game and how people play the game , I don't know how you read your datas and how you retrieve them from the game , but you really should play a little bit more your own game So i suppose that after the realease of the hecate you gonna nerf small railgun too? You clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. These changes did not go far enough. Not even close.
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems 361	Posted - 2015.06.27 17:22:37 - [565] - Quote Alexis Nightwish wrote: afkalt wrote: Irya Boone wrote: So you are nerfing DDA now and buffing missiles ? So we must all swap to caldari ships for pvp? you have a problem with understanding your game and how people play the game , I don't know how you read your datas and how you retrieve them from the game , but you really should play a little bit more your own game So i suppose that after the realease of the hecate you gonna nerf small railgun too? Nah, the missile buff was a bait and switch. Never not nerf caldari. To elaborate on what afk said, it's true missiles are getting application modules, but the rigs that we used to use for application will now be stacking penalized so you'll have to sacrifice one mid and/or low slot just to have the same application you do now. So are you going to drop tackle, tank (most missile boats are shield, and the Amarr ones have few mids), or DPS? It's lose-lose-lose, but CCP will call it a win. Ain't that the truth... But 5% less Ishtar damage will solve everything!!
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems 361	Posted - 2015.06.27 17:26:44 - [566] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: Gabriel Karade wrote: Armour Ishtar \0/ (though, I still maintain you should still port some shield hp's across into armour...) It lacks speed and pgen for a good armor brawler Neuts, heavy drones, cap booster, dual rep... You must be joking.
Umino Iruka Ultramar Independent Contracting 3	Posted - 2015.06.27 20:14:52 - [567] - Quote I swear these "balance" changes remind me of one thing only: http://giphy.com/gifs/5Zesu5VPNGJlm It's not all bad because the "random generator to current problems" button did yield the tempest buff as well - not quite what it should be, but it's a start...
Kitty Bear Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance 1481	Posted - 2015.06.27 23:50:42 - [568] - Quote Umino Iruka wrote: I swear these "balance" changes remind me of one thing only: I was thinking more this
TheSylance Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2015.06.27 23:59:18 - [569] - Quote Will the "Tempest Fleet Issue" recieve the increased firerate too? Cause otherwise it will be weaker than the normal one. Compare here
Atomeon The Scope Gallente Federation 39	Posted - 2015.06.28 01:12:37 - [570] - Quote TheSylance wrote: Will the "Tempest Fleet Issue" recieve the increased firerate too? Cause otherwise it will be weaker than the normal one. Compare here Dont complain, enjoy it... what it lasts
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1178	Posted - 2015.06.28 03:21:59 - [571] - Quote TheSylance wrote: Will the "Tempest Fleet Issue" recieve the increased firerate too? Cause otherwise it will be weaker than the normal one. Compare here Because paper DPS is the only stat that matters, right? Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
Feffri Death By Design Did he say Jump 53	Posted - 2015.06.28 05:50:26 - [572] - Quote i agree with the posts that ccp is being completly idiotic with theses nerfs. YOUVE HEARD IT A MILLION TIMES... THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE ISHTAR!!!! AND SENTRIES!!! NOT DRONES OR OTHER DRONE BOATS. So yah stop being a bunch of retards and nerf the ishtar and it's use of sentries. On another note I think that sentries need a counter and scripted ecm would be awesome for this. Basically you made ECM worthless cause people hate being out of the fight entirely. However I propose this. 1. There should be two ecm scripts 1 that breaks the ships lock with drones and either hits all the time or has super high chance to hit (this is obviously open to discussion) and the second script shoudl be double the chance to hit but only breaks lock like ecm burst. Where lock can immidiatly begin to be regained. This would allow for better e war fare with jams and sensor damps... 2. when a drone ship loses lock through ecm or through getting damped the drones shut down and stop flying and shooting. This should be done now! 3. counters to e war should be something like 50% stronger.. so that if you give up mids or utility to counter it is stronger ( double may be too strong also debatable) Discuss
Cobra Shikkoken Oort Cloud Comets 2	Posted - 2015.06.28 11:11:35 - [573] - Quote Damn! I spent 3-4 mounth of life learning Ishtar, and its nerfed twice. before it i have learned up to 5 (2 battleship skills) Rattlesnake , thay nerfed them for less firepower against gangster frigetes. just left bonus for heavy and senrty drones, also nerfed sentryes. Is tte CCP watching me ? Now im finishing learn the Sin - guys this one ll be nerfed soon
Cobra Shikkoken Oort Cloud Comets 2	Posted - 2015.06.28 11:20:39 - [574] - Quote You say that Ishtar too dressed in the fleet hits from far away. Is it possible to nerf it only for fleets? And leave bonuses for solo runners. For example solo agents or in DED zones give bonuses which act only in these areas.
Panther X High Flyers Gentlemen's.Club 102	Posted - 2015.06.28 12:10:33 - [575] - Quote Midori Tsu wrote: Bienator II wrote: have you considered splitting the dps bonus into dps+rof bonus like all other damage mods do? I guess thats also the reason why the DDAs have those non integer dps boost values. one of the reasons why ships like the worm are so silly in frig fights is because of the insane alpha. On paper they would project worse than an algos, but IF worm drones hit the frig is half dead - no time to rep against that. due to ~legacy code~ you can't change the drone rof, only damage. is that the excuse they are using again? My super smells of rich Corinthian Leather
Panther X High Flyers Gentlemen's.Club 102	Posted - 2015.06.28 12:13:57 - [576] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Masao Kurata wrote: This works out to a 2.0%/3.8%/5%/5.6% reduction in DPS for 1/2/3/4 DDA2s and 1.6%/3.0%/4.0%/4.5% for 1/2/3/4 faction DDAs or to put it in terms of base dps, 2.5%/5,6%/8.4%/10% and 2%/4.6%/7.0%/8.5% for faction. Very reasonable change, it may even need a second helping in a patch or two. The Ishtar slot change I'm not so keen on, the flexibility of fitting options afforded by its layout was part of its unique flavour. Agreed, it was the only good Gallente ship that could shield tank and that was what really made the Ishtar a cool, fun and flexible ship to fly. By no means did the 5/5/5 slot layout make the Ishtar OP, It was plain and simple it's ability to use BS caliber weapons without cap or fitting restraints. And now it appears CCP is taking that uniqueness away from the Ishtar and turning it into another (yawn) armor tank Gallente ship. I'm starting to get the feeling that CCP has no idea what they're doing when it comes to balancing this ship. I believe that it's only a matter of time for this controversial ship that caused more of a dilemma then any other ship in the history of eve , to end up being long forgotten in the realm of Oblivion (courtesy of CCP of course). what makes you think they have had any idea so far? EVERY change has screwed every ship. In the name of balance i strike at thee! My super smells of rich Corinthian Leather
Panther X High Flyers Gentlemen's.Club 102	Posted - 2015.06.28 12:22:23 - [577] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Altrue wrote: CCP Rise wrote: This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. I don't think people are asking for Ishtars to be unable to use sentries. Most people are asking for the removal of sentries bonuses on them. You know, the +25% damage, AND the +25% hitpoints, AND the +25% tracking, AND the +25% optimal. They would still be able to use sentries, but their stats would be more in-line with their actual balanced state. Nope that's not it. They should keep 10% to drone damage and hit points as they did before and just introduce medium sentry drones. yeah that will do it...introducing new mods/guns/drones/what have you just to address the already OP meta... cough cough DDA/OTL etc. No, Ishtars DO need to be axed from the ability to use battleship class drones. Sentries are a battleship weapons platform. You want to balance them? Give the other cruisers the ability to use large guns/launchers while maintaining agility and survive-ability. Didn't think so. Either change the bandwidth required to use sentries, or class restrict them. Ishtars fixed. Stop fiddle f'ing around with dumb solutions that screw everything else. My super smells of rich Corinthian Leather
Nafensoriel KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 6	Posted - 2015.06.28 13:57:05 - [578] - Quote Just playing devils advocate here but... Heavy drones are also battleship classed drones. Asking for the removal of "battleship classed drones" from a "cruiser sized platform" might not quite get the result you want. Additionally rise does have a point.. If they do it to one drone they are more likely to lock all drones. This means no more sentries for the VNI, Myrm, Prophacy, Vexor, Damnation, and Eos. It wouldn't make functional design or balance sense to remove sentries from ONE cruiser platform. Additionally once you've established that Large Drones only work on Battleships or above then you inadvertently establish that medium drones are Cruiser/BC and, more importantly, lights are limited to frigates and destroyers. Want to pretty much kill or drastically change the balance dynamics of all secondary weapon system drone using battleships in the game in a single move? Does the golem now get 5 heavy drones since it can no longer use 5 lights or do you buff it to use no drones at all? What about a drake? Does it now get 5 medium drones since that would now be its intended "drone size" ? Size locking drones becomes a very nasty bag of worms once opened. Sentry drones may be the root of the problem with the Ishtar(I personally think its the fact that its a brick in space WITH its damage projection) but can you honestly say that would be the "best" fit to fixing the game?
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2932	Posted - 2015.06.28 14:24:24 - [579] - Quote I can put a single sentry drone on my Tristan, it now has a "battleship weapon" with a 10% tracking bonus also. Death to the Tristan 10% tracking buff. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Mario Putzo 1459	Posted - 2015.06.28 16:22:18 - [580] - Quote Nafensoriel wrote: Just playing devils advocate here but... Heavy drones are also battleship classed drones. Asking for the removal of "battleship classed drones" from a "cruiser sized platform" might not quite get the result you want. Additionally rise does have a point.. If they do it to one drone they are more likely to lock all drones. This means no more sentries for the VNI, Myrm, Prophacy, Vexor, Damnation, and Eos. It wouldn't make functional design or balance sense to remove sentries from ONE cruiser platform. Additionally once you've established that Large Drones only work on Battleships or above then you inadvertently establish that medium drones are Cruiser/BC and, more importantly, lights are limited to frigates and destroyers. Want to pretty much kill or drastically change the balance dynamics of all secondary weapon system drone using battleships in the game in a single move? Does the golem now get 5 heavy drones since it can no longer use 5 lights or do you buff it to use no drones at all? What about a drake? Does it now get 5 medium drones since that would now be its intended "drone size" ? Size locking drones becomes a very nasty bag of worms once opened. Sentry drones may be the root of the problem with the Ishtar(I personally think its the fact that its a brick in space WITH its damage projection) but can you honestly say that would be the "best" fit to fixing the game? Seems like an excessive amount of change for something that is as easy as changing "Bonus for Heavy and Sentry Drones" > Bonus for Medium Combat Drones. Still lets you use any sized drone you can fit, but you only get bonuses for drones that are size appropriate to you hull. Now for something different Why is there no drone boats with bonuses to EWAR drones? Seems like a missed opportunity to have a unique ship.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 684	Posted - 2015.06.28 16:30:39 - [581] - Quote Cobra Shikkoken wrote: Damn! I spent 3-4 mounth of life learning Ishtar, and its nerfed twice. before it i have learned up to 5 (2 battleship skills) Rattlesnake , thay nerfed them for less firepower against gangster frigetes. just left bonus for heavy and senrty drones, also nerfed sentryes. Is tte CCP watching me ? Now im finishing learn the Sin - guys this one ll be nerfed soon You are safe. It have to be working to break. Train RR well if you haven't. Sin is actually good for this role. As well...you don't really miss the guns if not there. And may be of more use repping banged up ninjyas in your crew.
Nya Kittenheart Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 19	Posted - 2015.06.28 19:18:33 - [582] - Quote After reading a good part of the post , i'm fairly sure CCP need to remove the sentry bonus from the hull.The immediate application of the DPS combined with the range,damage and tracking selection on top of a 25 % damage bonus is just too much to be balanced in my opinion. A speed bonus to medium and heavy drone would probably give something nice to the hull without making it OP.
Kibitt Kallinikov Catastrophic Operations Get Off My Lawn 3	Posted - 2015.06.28 19:25:07 - [583] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: Now for something different Why is there no drone boats with bonuses to EWAR drones? Seems like a missed opportunity to have a unique ship. Actually, this is one thing I thought they could have done with the Cruor back when the pirate rebalance was happening. I'm happy it was buffed, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying that one wild 'n' crazy idea I had was to let it have a large HP and slow effect bonus to its drone, and let it have 5mb/10-15m3 because I'd been in PvE combat sites where there were such drones being used by Blood Raiders.
Hal Morsh Aliastra Gallente Federation 321	Posted - 2015.06.29 01:11:10 - [584] - Quote Mind wrote: don't make ships better, just make them worse = balancing a'la CCP gg Honestly nerfing everything is better than a power creep. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
GordonO Caldari Provisions 126	Posted - 2015.06.29 02:08:27 - [585] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know! I will wait for clear skies and take my ship with its wingy things for a spin PS---- all references completely intentional.. <-- click ... What next ??
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2015.06.29 06:15:52 - [586] - Quote Again : Slot change: why not. Nice idea. Pgen-nerf: stupid if you want armor tanked ishtars. But you can adapt (no pgen for turrets though) Speed nerf: ridiculous. Make the slowest cruiser even slower. Especially bad if you armor tank it. Tempel buffs: no idea. I dont know the BS problems enough for a statement.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1183	Posted - 2015.06.29 13:45:17 - [587] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: Again : Slot change: why not. Nice idea. Pgen-nerf: stupid if you want armor tanked ishtars. But you can adapt (no pgen for turrets though) Speed nerf: ridiculous. Make the slowest cruiser even slower. Especially bad if you armor tank it. Tempel buffs: no idea. I dont know the BS problems enough for a statement. im guessing the new compact versions of mods is why the pg nerf. Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Spugg Galdon Nisroc Angels 712	Posted - 2015.06.29 13:49:25 - [588] - Quote I would have far preferred that you put the Tempest changes into it's own dedicated thread. I feel that this very important change is getting lost in the whirlwind (see what I did there?) of the Ishtar. That being said.... The Tempest has lacked any real, I dunno, "Something" (pssshhhhh maybe ). It was a double damage bonused battleship that did relatively little damage. It doesn't really have a role as it sits in the "versatility" area however it is still seen to be a little bit poor. This buff to 7.5% RoF bonus pushes the Tempest into a real damage dealer (if you gank it out with missile launchers too). It gives the ship 12 effective turrets. That is pretty impressive however I still feel that this ship and the fleet issue version are a little lackluster. Personally, with the Tempest being an Attack Battleship, I feel an application bonus would be more fitting. If the straight 5% damage bonus was dropped for a 7.5% tracking bonus the Tempest would then slot nicely into the attack BS role. it would then still retain 9.6 effective turrets with a 7.5% RoF bonus (only 0.4 less than current Tempest) and be able to really apply that damage whilst taking advantage of it's inherent speed advantage over other ships. If the Tempest was felt to still be too weak, buffing the RoF bonus to 10% would push it back out to 12 effective turrets (currently proposed) which leaves options open for future balance if required. Now the Tempest Fleet Issue could be differentiated from the standard issue pest by giving it 8 turret slots, a 7.5% tracking bonus and a 5% damage bonus (not RoF) giving the ship 10 effective turrets. This would place the Tempest as the absolute premier Alpha boat in the game giving it a real role, especially in the "Fleet" role which is in it's name! This way we would have two quite different ships cut from the same cloth. The Tempest being the true "Attack" battleship and the Tempest Fleet Issue being the true "Strike" or "Fleet" battleship. Also, neither battleship in this design steps on any of the toes of any other AC battleship or ABC. What do you think?
Celise Katelo State War Academy Caldari State 121	Posted - 2015.06.29 17:50:44 - [589] - Quote DDA nerf... because Ishtar is OP Clearly this move is rather harsh for all drone boats , not happy about this. /Sad Panda EVEBoard ...Just over 26million skill points, each skill was chosen for a reason. I closed my eyes & clicked another skill to train... "BINGO...!!!" ... "This time i got something usefull"
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2477	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:37:34 - [590] - Quote Wrik Hoover wrote: not ok do you know why everyone and his mother flys ishtars ? Because you sit at 70km **** out dps and when you lose more then 2 isthars you just run away and no one can ever stop you remove the 5% dmg sentry bonus on the ishtar instead It's true. Sorry, CCP, you guys are completely missing the problem. I'd say a better solution is to just cut off 25mbit/sec off its bandwidth because come on, the Dominix needs a chance to compete, but one way or another its sentry DPS needs to come down. Drone damage amplifiers were in-line with other damage-boosting modules. Nerfing them is the wrong move, a better move is to nerf drone damage. Drone ships apply DPS so much more easily that they should score lower DPS numbers than most turret ships. A good way to balance drone DPS is to compare it with weapons that apply really well. A good example: autocannons and drones both have variable damage types and can hit targets easily with their great tracking. The biggest difference between them is drones have way more range, therefore drones should do less DPS than autocannons. Bam, fixed. Lastly.....I want a Tempest now. I would have said that giving it a 7th turret hardpoint was the right fix, but this gives it 1.2 more effective turrets without costing the powergrid and it still leaves the extra utility high available. Want my mathematically consistent opinion? 7% rate of fire bonus is plenty, even 6.5% will un-marginalize it. But go ahead and leave it at 7.5%, my Tempest and I won't complain. One final point on the Tempest, and this goes for all ships with damage and rate of fire (except dreadnoughts): CCP, you guys seem to be afraid to give these ships a proper amount of weapon hardpoints, as if you see that high DPS number it reaches and you're afraid its sheer DPS will make it out-class other ships. Well it's supposed to get higher DPS than the competition, because they all have more range or tracking, or maybe more defenses. If damage and rate of fire is overpowered on the same number of weapon hardpoints as all the other ships, then the problem lies in the balance of the bonuses themselves-but I don't think there is a problem here at all. .
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony 8	Posted - 2015.06.30 04:29:16 - [591] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: Personally, with the Tempest being an Attack Battleship, I feel an application bonus would be more fitting. If the straight 5% damage bonus was dropped for a 7.5% tracking bonus the Tempest would then slot nicely into the attack BS role. it would then still retain 9.6 effective turrets with a 7.5% RoF bonus (only 0.4 less than current Tempest) and be able to really apply that damage whilst taking advantage of it's inherent speed advantage over other ships. If the Tempest was felt to still be too weak, buffing the RoF bonus to 10% would push it back out to 12 effective turrets (currently proposed) which leaves options open for future balance if required. Now the Tempest Fleet Issue could be differentiated from the standard issue pest by giving it 8 turret slots, a 7.5% tracking bonus and a 5% damage bonus (not RoF) giving the ship 10 effective turrets. This would place the Tempest as the absolute premier Alpha boat in the game giving it a real role, especially in the "Fleet" role which is in it's name! What do you think? I for one think this man is spot-on. It would greatly differentiate the Minmatar line of battleships! Listen to this man, he's on to something here (bump!!)
Allaera Caldari Provisions Caldari State 29	Posted - 2015.06.30 19:01:19 - [592] - Quote Nafensoriel wrote: Size locking drones becomes a very nasty bag of worms once opened. CCP invalidated that argument some time ago with the 3 precedents they have already set on this particular subject - I draw your attention to the Rattlesnake, Gila and Worm.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1493	Posted - 2015.06.30 19:37:41 - [593] - Quote Allaera wrote: Nafensoriel wrote: Size locking drones becomes a very nasty bag of worms once opened. CCP invalidated that argument some time ago with the 3 precedents they have already set on this particular subject - I draw your attention to the Rattlesnake, Gila and Worm. Unbonused =/= size locked.
Kateryna School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.06.30 21:12:20 - [594] - Quote You are nerfing ALL drone boat just for a fix on one Ship ? That's silly.
Norrin Ellis Venture Racing 306	Posted - 2015.06.30 21:24:24 - [595] - Quote "The Ishtar needs the nerf bat." "Based on what evidence?" "Lots of players actually want to fly it." CEO, Venture Racing Manager, EVE Online Hold'Em
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1495	Posted - 2015.06.30 21:32:52 - [596] - Quote Kateryna wrote: You are nerfing ALL drone boat just for a fix on one Ship ? That's silly. afkalt wrote: Kaivar Lancer wrote: Why is the DDA getting nerfed? Nerf the hulls, not the module. Other drone boats like the Dragoon just got nerfed for no reason. THIS IS WHY
Feyrin Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore 40	Posted - 2015.06.30 21:53:13 - [597] - Quote Norrin Ellis wrote: "The Ishtar needs the nerf bat." "Based on what evidence?" "Lots of players actually want to fly it." No it needs a nerf because no-one wants to fly it and yet everyone does.
Vailen Sere The Oasis Group TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 22:35:08 - [598] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. Rise, just a perception. Cruiser Vexor: 75 Mbps Battlecruiser: Myrmidon: 100 Mbps Command ship: Eos: 125 Mbps - The training time it takes to get in this ship proves its worth Cruiser sized drone Talos's: Ishtar: 125Mbps VNI: 125Mbps The last 2 are teir 3 battlecruisers.. cruiser sized with faction/T2 resists and speed.. and nothing counters them unless you are fast enough to get in under their guns.. than they swap to medium drones and continue to eat your face. My suggestion? cut their bandwidth to 100. why are they flying a full flight of heavy / sentries when there only 3 T1's and 1 or 2 faction BS's that can?
Vailen Sere The Oasis Group TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 22:41:11 - [599] - Quote Feffri wrote: i agree with the posts that ccp is being completly idiotic with theses nerfs. YOUVE HEARD IT A MILLION TIMES... THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE ISHTAR!!!! AND SENTRIES!!! NOT DRONES OR OTHER DRONE BOATS. So yah stop being a bunch of retards and nerf the ishtar and it's use of sentries. On another note I think that sentries need a counter and scripted ecm would be awesome for this. Basically you made ECM worthless cause people hate being out of the fight entirely. However I propose this. 1. There should be two ecm scripts 1 that breaks the ships lock with drones and either hits all the time or has super high chance to hit (this is obviously open to discussion) and the second script shoudl be double the chance to hit but only breaks lock like ecm burst. Where lock can immidiatly begin to be regained. This would allow for better e war fare with jams and sensor damps... 2. when a drone ship loses lock through ecm or through getting damped the drones shut down and stop flying and shooting. This should be done now! 3. counters to e war should be something like 50% stronger.. so that if you give up mids or utility to counter it is stronger ( double may be too strong also debatable) Discuss ECM is fine against these.. if your fast enough.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 186	Posted - 2015.06.30 22:42:24 - [600] - Quote Celise Katelo wrote: DDA nerf... because Ishtar is OP Clearly this move is rather harsh for all drone boats , not happy about this. /Sad Panda Quote: "Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board" They dominate in almost every class, and don't worry there's plenty of room for more nerfs too.
Mina Sebiestar Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate 904	Posted - 2015.07.01 04:30:34 - [601] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: For now the TFI will not get the same bonus change. We'll see how this shakes out and evaluate after. Why are you making me hate you? Both hull need this fix and if by some chance everybody and their grandparents start flying fleet tempest thru out new eden reverse it..you are fixing what you ppl done with drones and their upgrades for years now,but this is pretty straight forward both ships suck and they need to deliver more dps for their size and to make their dual dmg bonus actually feelt. Seriously.
Gaamaar Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.07.01 06:09:48 - [602] - Quote I am disappointed with the Ishtar rebalancing. It seems like when you do your homework, select a great ship, fit it properly and learn to fly it effectively someone thinks it is too good and wants to rebalance it. Not mentioning 5 years of skill training and the high cost of the ship, changing the performance is irritating to say the least. If the Ishtar is too powerful, who was responsible for its power? Do we get a refund of ISK for a crippled Ishtar? What is wrong with the Ishtar being a great ship? Why rebalance at all? Any pilot can buy it and fly it (providing they have the skills and the ISK). If you bring a Volkswagen to a Corvette race, expect to lose. If you want to win, get your training, spend your money, buy a Corvette and learn to drive it. Oh wait, I overlooked the obvious. The Volkswagen racing commission could change the rules so that Corvettes can only have 85 horsepower engines so the poor little Volkswagens can keep up. Sounds reasonable doesn't it ! Doing this to the Ishtar fixes nothing.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1495	Posted - 2015.07.01 07:31:22 - [603] - Quote Gaamaar wrote: Not mentioning 5 years of skill training You did something very wrong here. Gaamaar wrote: Do we get a refund of ISK for a crippled Ishtar? YES! This can be accommodated. Fly it directly to Jita station on planet IV, moon IV and list it with the broker agents for an immediate isk injection and the relief of the hull. Note for administrative reasons, you will need to repackage the hull. For any questions please call 1-800-NERF-ISHTARS.
Josef Djugashvilis 2964	Posted - 2015.07.01 07:40:48 - [604] - Quote I have said it before and I say it again, if this insane desire for some sort of perfectly balanced system continues, we will end up where the only real choice will be between shape and colour of these perfectly balanced ships. Once again, for the love of all things holy, stop messing around with drones. These drone tweaks have been going on for two years now, enough already! Bah! This is not a signature.
Kibitt Kallinikov Catastrophic Operations Get Off My Lawn 3	Posted - 2015.07.01 08:00:10 - [605] - Quote Josef Djugashvilis wrote: I have said it before and I say it again, if this insane desire for some sort of perfectly balanced system continues, we will end up where the only real choice will be between shape and colour of these perfectly balanced ships. I sincerely doubt that CCP wants perfect balance between everything. In fact, many games try to have cyclical imbalance. That means like rock paper scissors. Rock ALWAYS beats scissors, but always loses to paper. The idea here is that everything keeps each other in check.
Kasia en Tilavine School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 5	Posted - 2015.07.01 08:04:25 - [606] - Quote Gaamaar wrote: I Do we get a refund of ISK for a crippled Ishtar? What is wrong with the Ishtar being a great ship? Doing this to the Ishtar fixes nothing. 1: no. Sell it. Everyone who wants to use it for no tank pve or armor brawl pvp will gladly buy it. 2: ALL of the ships that are supposed to be competitive in class with the Ishtar are a joke because of it. Deimos, Cerb, Sac, Vaga, Eagle, Muninn, Zealot... All of them will lose 1v1 and 100v100 and everything in between against a shield Ishtar. They're insane. This fixes everything. Don't be obtuse. People like you are the reason CCP is so scared to do what they have to for the health of their game. It's nothing but... "Muh risk free caps teleporting across new Eden faster than an interceptor!" "Muh SP training. I demand a refund of those points I won't use now!" "Muh t2 production supremacy! You can't make me put my T2 bpo in danger!" "Muh ISK ticks. 4% less ticks? Up the bounties by 10%!" "Muh sky-netting! let me assign 3000dps to a painter fit interceptor risk free!" "Muh afk cloaking. Let me hurt my enemies ISK grinding while I'm not playing!" Entitlement is one of the few things that really gets to me. So I say + %#*&$@-ú 1 for the Ishtar and drone changes.
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2015.07.01 08:32:41 - [607] - Quote Ehm no. 100vs100 is VERY different from 1vs1. A Deimos will just tank the ishtar damage for example. Many of your listed ships will always win an 1vs1.
Kasia en Tilavine School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 6	Posted - 2015.07.01 09:33:25 - [608] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: Ehm no. 100vs100 is VERY different from 1vs1. A Deimos will just tank the ishtar damage for example. Many of your listed ships will always win an 1vs1. Edit:it does NOT have the speed for a good armor brawler. Everyone will just fly away. A Deimos cannot tank 600 dps in ogre II damage. Especially when it's getting hammered with a full rack of neuts. Just fly away? That's not winning. That's running away. An interceptor can run away from an Ishtar as well. What does that matter? Why not dual rep with a full rack of Nos? Use the Deimos cap booster charges for yourself to run your own dual rep? That lets you use 2 webs to get the advantage in speed. Or use a tracking disruptor to drop the optimal+ falloff down to nothing? Or just let them run like bitches. Because if they engage, they lose.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2484	Posted - 2015.07.01 10:05:52 - [609] - Quote Josef Djugashvilis wrote: I have said it before and I say it again, if this insane desire for some sort of perfectly balanced system continues, we will end up where the only real choice will be between shape and colour of these perfectly balanced ships. That would only happen if all their stats were the same, but then balance would be easy. Give me a top hat. http://i.imgur.com/Boi9sA8.jpg
Specia1 K State War Academy Caldari State 90	Posted - 2015.07.01 10:49:37 - [610] - Quote nuff said.
gascanu Bearing Srl. 213	Posted - 2015.07.01 11:28:47 - [611] - Quote Kibitt Kallinikov wrote: Josef Djugashvilis wrote: I have said it before and I say it again, if this insane desire for some sort of perfectly balanced system continues, we will end up where the only real choice will be between shape and colour of these perfectly balanced ships. I sincerely doubt that CCP wants perfect balance between everything. In fact, many games try to have cyclical imbalance. That means like rock paper scissors. Rock ALWAYS beats scissors, but always loses to paper. The idea here is that everything keeps each other in check. well this was the story until now, but lately ... i don't know just look at the new missile mods being "balanced" after the tracking computer stats... in fact, for some time now any weapon system that that do "well" as in just a bit better than the rests, will be adopted by large coalitions pretty quick, ppl will start crying about it and the nerf hammer will drop so yea, this trend is going on for some time now, guess where it will end?
Ariel Ormond Killer Koalas Inc. 0	Posted - 2015.07.01 15:59:30 - [612] - Quote I do not agree with the Ishtar changes at all, you've nerf'd too many other things in the process and messed up other setups just to fix the Ishtar PvP dominance. All that was needed was to remove the Sentry Drone bonus from the Ishtar and leave the rest as is. +1 on the Tempest changes.
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2015.07.01 16:23:44 - [613] - Quote Kasia en Tilavine wrote: A Deimos cannot tank 600 dps in ogre II damage. Especially when it's getting hammered with a full rack of neuts. Just fly away? That's not winning. That's running away. An interceptor can run away from an Ishtar as well. What does that matter? Why not dual rep with a full rack of Nos? Use the Deimos cap booster charges for yourself to run your own dual rep? That lets you use 2 webs to get the advantage in speed. Or use a tracking disruptor to drop the optimal+ falloff down to nothing? Or just let them run like bitches. Because if they engage, they lose. A Deimos only able to tank LESS than 600 thermal damage? An Ishtar able to fit double repair AND a full rack of neuts? Speed not important for brawling? I really don't know how to answer this...
Kibitt Kallinikov Catastrophic Operations Get Off My Lawn 4	Posted - 2015.07.01 16:54:30 - [614] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: A Deimos only able to tank LESS than 600 thermal damage? An Ishtar able to fit double repair AND a full rack of neuts? Speed not important for brawling? I really don't know how to answer this... Yeah, a Deimos tanks 640 EHP/s thermal damage without links/heat/drugs or overheat with just Damage Control II, 2x t2 medium reps, EANM II, and Auxiliary Nano Pump t1 rig. Also, a rack full of neuts sounds cool until you realize the cycle time is monstruous and you end up destroying your own capacitor as well, so even past the fact that you don't fit both tons of neuts AND dual reps on an Ishtar, it would still be a poor decision because you could never neut as much as you need to while also using that capacitor to repair your ship. I'm not so sure about CCP's ideas on the Ishtar changes this time around. They're making them slower with plates and also reducing their ability to fit anything in the highslots with that PG nerf. It could potentially restrict armor tanking as well but I think it's just going to make Ishtars have even more empty highslots.
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2015.07.01 17:44:33 - [615] - Quote I won't fit anything for combat in my highs. -a cloak and a core probe scanner are the only things there. i just don't have the pgen nor the cpu to fit anything. It's not BAD - the dps from the drones is enough balancing-wise. but still... those wasted slots are annoying sometimes.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1505	Posted - 2015.07.01 17:54:51 - [616] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: I won't fit anything for combat in my highs. -a cloak and a core probe scanner are the only things there. i just don't have the pgen nor the cpu to fit anything. It's not BAD - the dps from the drones is enough balancing-wise. but still... those wasted slots are annoying sometimes. Why not? You can fit the new ishtar to have 2 neuts, a nos, dual rep (tanks 578 DPS vs thermal/kinetic), cap booster....548 DPS with explosive drones. All before heat. Cap life of over 9 mins with the MWD off (and meta 4 instead of T2 tackle, I missed that the first time), which with scram web, it should be able to be. Hell the thing is really quite scary. It can even fit a cloak, if you like.
Sait kech 13th Squadron The Initiative. 0	Posted - 2015.07.01 18:06:42 - [617] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: Edit:it does NOT have the speed for a good armor brawler. Everyone will just fly away. THIS!!!!
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 353	Posted - 2015.07.01 19:47:29 - [618] - Quote Sait kech wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: Edit:it does NOT have the speed for a good armor brawler. Everyone will just fly away. THIS!!!! Strange. When im in my armor brawling tempest that goes 400m/s with its ab, or my typhoon (with no prop), no one runs from me. They dogpile me. Or, if you think "well thats a BS!". I flew my armor muninn with an ab, that blazes around at 700m/s, and no one ran away from it either. For the ishtar.. scram/web/neuts, should make it hard to run when they have no cap. And if youre being kited, i heard that sentries shoot far. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony 8	Posted - 2015.07.02 04:58:27 - [619] - Quote gascanu wrote: in fact, for some time now any weapon system that that do "well" as in just a bit better than the rests, will be adopted by large coalitions pretty quick, ppl will start crying about it and the nerf hammer will drop so yea, this trend is going on for some time now, guess where it will end? It ends in my Jackdaw getting only a 5% ROF bonus as opposed to the other D3s getting both a 10% optimal AND 10% damage bonus. Which leads me to the conclusion the nerf hammer does not, as you suggest, go straight away to the obvious imbalance (SENTRIES in Cruisers ffs), nooo! If goes always, always pre- and post-nerf to our Caldari friends . Yet peeps are still crying in their soup over "mah Ishtarrrr!!" and "darned missiles OP!!!" This makes me LOL. Also, glad to have wasted a few seconds of your life reading this. It took me 20 seconds to write. It took 200 people 3 seconds each to read. I call that a win
Catherine Laartii Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 546	Posted - 2015.07.02 08:10:57 - [620] - Quote Yay another drone nerf! Tbh i think CCP finally realized how crazy OP drones were, and are using the Ishtar as a strawman to nerf drones as a whole over time. Good on them. Anyway, talking about the tempest I have to bring up my continued annoyance at the existence of double damage bonuses on projectile ships. While i admit changing them on t1 ships would be a bit too powerful, the TFI and HFI should BOTH get an extra turret slot, and have their bonuses swapped out to 10% damage per level with 7.5% tracking speed per level. This would do a great job at setting them apart from their counterparts, and make the TFI one hell of an arty platform. As for the t1 tempest, I propose this: 8 turret slots, drop all missile hardpoints, and change the RoF bonus out for an optimal range bonus. You'll get a solid arty platform for people to use in fleets, and it'll offset well with the increased PG requirements, forcing people to make some sacrifices if they want to fit a full rack of 1400mm howitzers.
Lili Andedare Fast Furious and Dead 360	Posted - 2015.07.02 11:45:18 - [621] - Quote ** this piece of **... brainless dev... ALL ships sucks so Ishtar Op? Lets nerf all dronboats coz we are genius dev!111
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1517	Posted - 2015.07.02 11:51:04 - [622] - Quote Lili Andedare wrote: Lets nerf all dronboats coz they are ALL too strong. ALL OF THEM . You made an extensive series of typos. I have fixed this for you. You're welcome.
gascanu Bearing Srl. 214	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:42:46 - [623] - Quote afkalt wrote: Lili Andedare wrote: Lets nerf all dronboats coz they are ALL too strong. ALL OF THEM . You made an extensive series of typos. I have fixed this for you. You're welcome. yea, my pilgrim is op, my gheddon is op, my whatever the amarr bc name is op, my myrmidon is op, and so on... "it's always better to keep your mouth shut and look stupid then open it an remove all doubts" or something like that
Lili Andedare Fast Furious and Dead 360	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:42:58 - [624] - Quote afkalt wrote: Lili Andedare wrote: Lets nerf all dronboats coz they are ALL too strong. ALL OF THEM . You made an extensive series of typos. I have fixed this for you. You're welcome. Orly? So if some ships sucks we should make ALL ships sucks too? SO MUCH FUN play on the useless **** ship!11 How about buff all ships instead nerf good ship? Ofc not coz its required some brain, time and money, better kill one, its take less time and can be done in BRAINOFF mode... God bless this dev...
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1527	Posted - 2015.07.02 13:26:07 - [625] - Quote How many times do I need to quote myself in the same frikken thread?!?!?!??!?!??! afkalt wrote: Kaivar Lancer wrote: Why is the DDA getting nerfed? Nerf the hulls, not the module. Other drone boats like the Dragoon just got nerfed for no reason. THIS IS WHY
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1952	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:01:51 - [626] - Quote Lili Andedare wrote: afkalt wrote: Lili Andedare wrote: Lets nerf all dronboats coz they are ALL too strong. ALL OF THEM . You made an extensive series of typos. I have fixed this for you. You're welcome. Orly? So if some ships sucks we should make ALL ships sucks too? SO MUCH FUN play on the useless **** ship!11 How about buff all ships instead nerf good ship? Ofc not coz its required some brain, time and money, better kill one, its take less time and can be done in BRAINOFF mode... God bless this dev... You think powercreeping everything to the current level of drone boat is better than nerfing the drone boats?
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 356	Posted - 2015.07.02 15:42:39 - [627] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Lili Andedare wrote: afkalt wrote: Lili Andedare wrote: Lets nerf all dronboats coz they are ALL too strong. ALL OF THEM . You made an extensive series of typos. I have fixed this for you. You're welcome. Orly? So if some ships sucks we should make ALL ships sucks too? SO MUCH FUN play on the useless ** ship!11 How about buff all ships instead nerf good ship? Ofc not coz its required some brain, time and money, better kill one, its take less time and can be done in BRAINOFF mode... God bless this dev... You think powercreeping everything to the current level of drone boat is better than nerfing the drone boats? Well of course. Then his isk ticks wont be harmed. Edit: I am also amused by the use "11" instead of exclamation points in his post. ** just got serious. He cranked the rage up to 11. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1952	Posted - 2015.07.02 15:54:49 - [628] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Lili Andedare wrote: afkalt wrote: Lili Andedare wrote: Lets nerf all dronboats coz they are ALL too strong. ALL OF THEM . You made an extensive series of typos. I have fixed this for you. You're welcome. Orly? So if some ships sucks we should make ALL ships sucks too? SO MUCH FUN play on the useless ** ship!11 How about buff all ships instead nerf good ship? Ofc not coz its required some brain, time and money, better kill one, its take less time and can be done in BRAINOFF mode... God bless this dev... You think powercreeping everything to the current level of drone boat is better than nerfing the drone boats? Well of course. Then his isk ticks wont be harmed. Edit: I am also amused by the use "11" instead of exclamation points in his post. ** just got serious. He cranked the rage up to 11. My passive Ishtar will probably have +1 DDA and -1 prop mod. I'll have to check the stacking penalty precisely but I might get better ticks...
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 356	Posted - 2015.07.02 16:23:14 - [629] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: My passive Ishtar will probably have +1 DDA and -1 prop mod. I'll have to check the stacking penalty precisely but I might get better ticks... But adapting is hard. Its easier to rage on the forums than to create fits that take advantage of the changes. Stop using that logic.. succumb to the rage!11 Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1953	Posted - 2015.07.02 16:55:17 - [630] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: My passive Ishtar will probably have +1 DDA and -1 prop mod. I'll have to check the stacking penalty precisely but I might get better ticks... But adapting is hard. Its easier to rage on the forums than to create fits that take advantage of the changes. Stop using that logic.. succumb to the rage!11 What I really would of wanted is a drone nav for the low but vOv...
E1ev1n Unknown Crusade 4	Posted - 2015.07.02 17:13:26 - [631] - Quote While I believe I understand why you felt the need to adjust DDAs I don't at all agree with the decision as it is not an "Ishtar" module but rather a "Drone" module which I am fairly certain is clear in their descriptions. The issue I see with this is an over-reaching nerf hammer hitting every drone based dps ship not to mention the ones using a complement of drones and guns in balance. Surely there is a better way to reduce DPS (if that is in fact what you are trying to do to Ishtars) than changing DDAs as they will affect more than just Ishtars.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1953	Posted - 2015.07.02 17:19:45 - [632] - Quote E1ev1n wrote: While I believe I understand why you felt the need to adjust DDAs I don't at all agree with the decision as it is not an "Ishtar" module but rather a "Drone" module which I am fairly certain is clear in their descriptions. The issue I see with this is an over-reaching nerf hammer hitting every drone based dps ship not to mention the ones using a complement of drones and guns in balance. Surely there is a better way to reduce DPS (if that is in fact what you are trying to do to Ishtars) than changing DDAs as they will affect more than just Ishtars. Did you miss that part? CCP Rise wrote: Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows:
Zank Lennelluc The Pack Fidelas Constans 0	Posted - 2015.07.02 20:40:58 - [633] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: E1ev1n wrote: While I believe I understand why you felt the need to adjust DDAs I don't at all agree with the decision as it is not an "Ishtar" module but rather a "Drone" module which I am fairly certain is clear in their descriptions. The issue I see with this is an over-reaching nerf hammer hitting every drone based dps ship not to mention the ones using a complement of drones and guns in balance. Surely there is a better way to reduce DPS (if that is in fact what you are trying to do to Ishtars) than changing DDAs as they will affect more than just Ishtars. Did you miss that part? CCP Rise wrote: Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows: Should have also added how oppressive the Eos, the Nestor, the Stratios all are and not forgetting how the Ishkur, Prophesy, Arbitrator etc completely outclass every other ship in their class by sheer dps. To keep the game balanced and fun the best thing to do is nerf ships, remove features and ensure simple things become more tedious.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1957	Posted - 2015.07.02 20:54:43 - [634] - Quote Zank Lennelluc wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: E1ev1n wrote: While I believe I understand why you felt the need to adjust DDAs I don't at all agree with the decision as it is not an "Ishtar" module but rather a "Drone" module which I am fairly certain is clear in their descriptions. The issue I see with this is an over-reaching nerf hammer hitting every drone based dps ship not to mention the ones using a complement of drones and guns in balance. Surely there is a better way to reduce DPS (if that is in fact what you are trying to do to Ishtars) than changing DDAs as they will affect more than just Ishtars. Did you miss that part? CCP Rise wrote: Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows: Should have also added how oppressive the Eos, the Nestor, the Stratios all are and not forgetting how the Ishkur, Prophesy, Arbitrator etc completely outclass every other ship in their class by sheer dps. To keep the game balanced and fun the best thing to do is nerf ships, remove features and ensure simple things become more tedious. All the ship you listed are not pure drone boat which should give them redeeming feature in their other stats beyond their drone damage. If nerfing their drone damage kills them, then the rest of the ship was badly designed to begin with.
Scott Webb Scott Webb Corp 15	Posted - 2015.07.02 21:37:16 - [635] - Quote Normalising yet again. Drones do not have impants etc etc and yet. Why don't you call yourselves Chatam House.
Kent Robin Nagas gave me Harpies Sorry We're In Your Space Eh 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 23:02:30 - [636] - Quote Altrue wrote: Meh. I was expecting a removal of sentries bonuses from the Ishtar, just saying. You're going in the nice direction but you're just chipping away little bits here and there at the Ishtar without making substantial changes. A slower Ishtar isn't any less broken and is less fun to fly. And you are nerfing its damage in the process by penalizing every single drone boat. Were they really all that OP?? Lets recap the Ishtar shall we: No fitting sink from guns Selectable range and damage Insane bonus to tracking AND optimal BS sized weapon Ability to detach source of damage from ship position. (!) Meaning you have to pick between going for its sentries and doing no kills, and not even damaging their DPS because they will just drop others, or going after the Ishtars and loose a lot of stuff in the process Insane sentry HPs, resistance to smartbombs, bombs, and prolonged fire. Not to mention the chore of having to target every sentry Increased server lag Easy-as-pie 10-man instant alpha Please, who designed this? Why is this still a thing? Remember this? also i think should reduce the locking range of ishtar
Sumeragy Revolution of Chaos Nemesis Enterprises. 11	Posted - 2015.07.02 23:23:04 - [637] - Quote -1 CCP to make it short what i saw in the Years... Drake is beeing used to much lets nerv it. Ah ** Hurricane next. A ** the Players start using now Abaddons... <---Enter next ship "ishtar" for example. EvE is player driven where player decides what to play and how to use. So CCP is hitting it whit a nerv bad because they dont like it. How the hell is that my decission, if ccp keeps nerving the ships the player base likes. CCP you guys are just running around. After Ishtars next ship will come and after that, the next one to be nerfeded. But only because of ishtars you are nerving the DDA too ???? i know its not much but whyyyy ?????? so every drone boats in eve gets the nerv too ?? What did my imicus do that you decided to nerv it ?
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 383	Posted - 2015.07.03 00:22:14 - [638] - Quote Why did the level of literacy drop so sharply in the past 3 pages? The drake didn't take a <6% drop in damage.
Sumeragy Revolution of Chaos Nemesis Enterprises. 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 01:17:56 - [639] - Quote HiddenPorpoise wrote: Why did the level of literacy drop so sharply in the past 3 pages? The drake didn't take a <6% drop in damage. I would say more, it did lost a Weapon slot and the heavy missiles where nerved now they are buffing it again (the heavy missiles). The Drake lost also a lot of Tank.
Kibitt Kallinikov Catastrophic Operations Get Off My Lawn 4	Posted - 2015.07.03 05:31:10 - [640] - Quote Sumeragy wrote: HiddenPorpoise wrote: Why did the level of literacy drop so sharply in the past 3 pages? The drake didn't take a <6% drop in damage. I would say more, it did lost a Weapon slot and the heavy missiles where nerved now they are buffing it again (the heavy missiles). The Drake lost also a lot of Tank. Old Drake: 7 missile launchers, 5% kinetic missile bonus = 8.75 effective launchers New Drake: 6 missile launchers, 10% kinetic missile bonus = 9 effective launchers I'm not sure if there was ever a point where it had 7 launchers with 10% bonus, but the new Drake definitely deals more kinetic DPS than the old one.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 307	Posted - 2015.07.03 05:56:43 - [641] - Quote drones and pvp So drone boat are first in pvp damage monthly. By what percent? Is it like 10% or 1%? Per class: Tristan - ? propably two weapons hull, if ewar hits drones still fighting; Worm - drones on steroids + missiles; Vexor, VNI, Ishtar - sentries; Gila - drones of steroids (I think most pvp damage here comes from PvErs fighting with pirates here, I didn't see hordes of Gilas at gate camps); Dominix - sentries. Question: are drone boats balance in their own class? Nerf will hit hulls not mention in above link, with 3 DDA it's about 6% less damage. "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1558	Posted - 2015.07.03 07:29:42 - [642] - Quote Kibitt Kallinikov wrote: Sumeragy wrote: HiddenPorpoise wrote: Why did the level of literacy drop so sharply in the past 3 pages? The drake didn't take a <6% drop in damage. I would say more, it did lost a Weapon slot and the heavy missiles where nerved now they are buffing it again (the heavy missiles). The Drake lost also a lot of Tank. Old Drake: 7 missile launchers, 5% kinetic missile bonus = 8.75 effective launchers New Drake: 6 missile launchers, 10% kinetic missile bonus = 9 effective launchers I'm not sure if there was ever a point where it had 7 launchers with 10% bonus, but the new Drake definitely deals more kinetic DPS than the old one. Folks are likely also including the massive heavy missile nerf...which makes a mockery of the current "severe" nerfs people complain about. -Base flight time reduced by 35% -Base velocity increased by 14.66% -In total, base range reduced by ~25% -Damage decreased by 10% (rounded to closest digit) -Explosion radius increased by 12% And that was slightly watered down, they originally wanted a 20% nerf. So yeah, there's no question about new vs old drake when you consider this along side it.
gascanu Bearing Srl. 214	Posted - 2015.07.03 07:40:43 - [643] - Quote Kibitt Kallinikov wrote: Sumeragy wrote: HiddenPorpoise wrote: Why did the level of literacy drop so sharply in the past 3 pages? The drake didn't take a <6% drop in damage. I would say more, it did lost a Weapon slot and the heavy missiles where nerved now they are buffing it again (the heavy missiles). The Drake lost also a lot of Tank. Old Drake: 7 missile launchers, 5% kinetic missile bonus = 8.75 effective launchers New Drake: 6 missile launchers, 10% kinetic missile bonus = 9 effective launchers I'm not sure if there was ever a point where it had 7 launchers with 10% bonus, but the new Drake definitely deals more kinetic DPS than the old one. you only forgot to add the 10% nerf to heavy missile dmg and 12% nerf to hm application but don't let that get in your way, pls tell us more how the new drake is better that the old one...
gascanu Bearing Srl. 214	Posted - 2015.07.03 07:44:52 - [644] - Quote oh, yea, CCP rise if everything need to be ~balanced, as in equal, then where are my drone implants?
Kibitt Kallinikov Catastrophic Operations Get Off My Lawn 4	Posted - 2015.07.03 07:47:53 - [645] - Quote afkalt wrote: Folks are likely also including the massive heavy missile nerf...which makes a mockery of the current "severe" nerfs people complain about. -Base flight time reduced by 35% -Base velocity increased by 14.66% -In total, base range reduced by ~25% -Damage decreased by 10% (rounded to closest digit) -Explosion radius increased by 12% And that was slightly watered down, they originally wanted a 20% nerf. So yeah, there's no question about new vs old drake when you consider this along side it. I like to think of things one piece at a time, and HAM has been an option. In terms of big fleets where projection wins out, that HML nerf definitely took Drakes out of the scene and I concede that argument instantly. However, if you want to compare against a Brutix or the like, rage HAMs do... a little DPS than blasters, while HAMS in general can't get scramkited (Brutix will have to swap to null, losing DPS in the process) neuted, or TD'd. Additionally, the chance to hit disruptor kiters with 30km javelins is another option the Brutix lacks, as well
ForceM POS Builder Inc. Silent Requiem 41	Posted - 2015.07.03 09:18:34 - [646] - Quote So, Your FORCING us to go from shield fits to armor fits by changing the slot layout. Does this also mean you are going to remove the T2 shield rigs we have on our hundreds of shield ishtars? Myself i got like 30 of them on different chars placed in different locations. Thats a whooping 650 mill or more thats we have to rip off them. For some this might not be that much but thats besides te point. ForceM
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 383	Posted - 2015.07.03 09:32:19 - [647] - Quote ForceM wrote: So, Your FORCING us to go from shield fits to armor fits by changing the slot layout. Yes, how will you ever shield fit a cruiser with only 4 mids?
Dant Perst Dark Matter Industrial Corp 4	Posted - 2015.07.03 10:02:55 - [648] - Quote I've been in this game for almost 3 years now, and the "re-balancing" nerfing and buffing approach that CCP uses to solve "problems" that I am not certain actually exist seems to take away one of the more interesting aspects of the game. How to beat the superior combat vessel (try strategy, tactics, special fits, gang approaches, etc). Today's Ishtar changes remind me of the Drake changes several years ago. To be quite frank, if you build a superior ship with superior capabilities, so what. That is in the nature of the game, and in reality. Does CCP make these changes because players are whining that they can't beat the superior ships and therefore they are about to go home and stop paying the monthly fee? I know that you have game-wide statistics that show the relative dominance of ships, but unless one is actually destroying competition and altering the fundamental landscape of the game, it ain't a problem, so don't fix it. The latest notion to reduce drone damage across the board as a means to nerf the Ishtar does not make any sense at all. My Vexor is not a super killer in NULL or low-sec under the present module statuses. All you will do as a result of the proposed nerf is to reduce it's capabilities further. And what's the point of that? Another obsolete ship for the reprocessing junkyard. If this is all about competitive balance, why not try to improve the capabilities of other ships in dominant ship classes, and while you are at it, add capabilities to other ship classes to allow for greater flexibility in combat fits. Something more substantial than the changes to the Force Recon cruisers done several months ago, which were cosmetic at best, e.g., the Arazu turret and drone limitations were essentially untouched, leaving a nice covert ops scout cruiser with little firepower or survivability against NPCs or other combat boats in low sec and null. BTW, the Gila is a monster. the 500% increase (5x) means that the 2 medium scout drones that you can launch have the damage and hitpoint capability of 10 drones -- it's a 10 drone boat with a significant missile pop. And you have 4 extra 2-drone flights in the bay. I have seen documentation of people running level 4 and 5 missions with this cruiser. But hey, that's ok. Someday when my missile skills are up to par, I will get one and see what I can do with it. Maybe CCP should let the council take on these issues of ship nerfing and if they authorize CCP to act, then do so.
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 383	Posted - 2015.07.03 11:21:19 - [649] - Quote Dant Perst wrote: The latest notion to reduce drone damage across the board as a means to nerf the Ishtar does not make any sense at all. My Vexor is not a super killer in NULL or low-sec under the present module statuses. All you will do as a result of the proposed nerf is to reduce it's capabilities further. And what's the point of that? Another obsolete ship for the reprocessing junkyard. Maybe CCP should let the council take on these issues of ship nerfing and if they authorize CCP to act, then do so. How much of nerf do you actually think this is? A lot of vexor fits are literally going untouched because they don't use drone amps. Only dps fits like gilas and amp stacking ishtars are actually losing that much. My 901 dps vex is I think doing 870 with this change. And CSM are bought, giving them direct power is idiotic at best.
Electra Magnetic Echelon Research SpaceMonkey's Alliance 30	Posted - 2015.07.03 14:21:14 - [650] - Quote Not really seeing the need to reduce drone damage amps effectiveness, while ramping up heavy missiles 5%. All people are going to fly now are drakes and tengu's. a lot of drone boats are used because ammo is a significant factor in the pve experience when trying to earn isk. Why are you nerfing an entire weapon system into the ground, when in comparison to the others it is already weaker? oh that's right, because you still have your hand in the cookie jar via PLEX and buying ammo is just one more isk sink.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1966	Posted - 2015.07.03 14:36:20 - [651] - Quote Electra Magnetic wrote: Not really seeing the need to reduce drone damage amps effectiveness, while ramping up heavy missiles 5%. All people are going to fly now are drakes and tengu's. a lot of drone boats are used because ammo is a significant factor in the pve experience when trying to earn isk. Why are you nerfing an entire weapon system into the ground, when in comparison to the others it is already weaker? oh that's right, because you still have your hand in the cookie jar via PLEX and buying ammo is just one more isk sink. It's not getting nerfed to the ground. Isktar will still be a thing. So will gila and rattler to grind ISK. Get a grip of what you are doing.
SandKid Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF 192	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:05:56 - [652] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. +1 on DDA changes On Ishtar...I totally agree CCP Rise on where you're coming from on the 'flexibility' of drones. It is what makes the weapon system dynamic and unique. Removing Sentries or even the bonus from the Ishtar doesn't necessarily solve the problem. Nerfing the actual hull of the ship is an ok start, but perhaps the real problem is the drones themselves. Sentry drones don't need a direct nerf to damage, but perhaps their ability to strike should be. -Optimal Range and Falloff could be reduced -Tracking Speed could be heavily nerfed (they are stationary after all) -Perhaps integrate EWAR to affect Sentry Drones only --i.e. target jamming, sensor damping, and weapon disruption on the host ship affect sentry drones (only) A final, outlandish suggestion if you will, is to develop an anti-drone system or even a ship platform. Tier 3 Destroyer for giggles, why not? Much like drones, missiles, and bombs, develop a unique weapon system that auto-targets enemy drones. Call it "Point Defense" modules or some such and make them follow the S/M/L module tiers with S being effective against Small and Medium Drone, Medium effective against Medium and Heavy Drones, and Large being effective against Heavy Drones and somewhat effective against Fighters/Bombers. Uses ammunition for varying ranges and dmg (as normal). Have the T2 variants follow typical range/dmg ideology. The large and medium modules, with T2 longrange ammo could be able to reach out to sentry drones around 75km. Drones don't have THAT many HP, so the modules could be used against ships but would be inferior to standard weapon systems. Think Defender missiles for drones. Hell, rework defender missiles FOR drones...that works too. Again, crazy idea but maybe the problem with drone boats isn't the boats themselves but the lack of effective means for handling them. You really have only one option: kill the hull as killing the drones is neither easy nor effective. Short of nerfing drone bays (please don't, that's stupid) I personally think there needs to be a better counter to drones than smartbombs and FoF.
Peter Kurusawa State Protectorate Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:28:10 - [653] - Quote DDA changes as well as the Ishtar changes seem fine to me. Though, the -1 Med slot hurts the Ishtar if it comes to pve and exploration. But then, the Ishtar was pretty much out of concurrence when it comes to explo.
Crimson Grimslow Total Recoil. Brothers of Tangra 13	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:32:04 - [654] - Quote Thanatos Marathon wrote: Mah DDAs! sadface (minor change, shouldn't be that big a deal, will need to do maths). Edit: Confirmed, not a big deal to other drone boats. Just enough to bring them back in line a bit. +1 on DDA changes. I concur i was scared for a second but the changes wont effect me too badly +1 for drone damage amps
Kalel Nimrott Sentu Demina Corpa 1158	Posted - 2015.07.03 20:08:42 - [655] - Quote Same politics as always. Something is good at what it does, nerf it!
Falin Whalen GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 786	Posted - 2015.07.03 23:44:39 - [656] - Quote I just have two things to show you all. First, watch this. Then watch this. There is a lot of information in those two videos that explains what CCP is trying to do. Don't be the ill-informed player that endlessly spouts; "They dun took our Ishtars, dang nab-it." "it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka-á
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 383	Posted - 2015.07.04 00:54:24 - [657] - Quote Falin Whalen wrote: I just have two things to show you all. First, watch this. Then watch this. There is a lot of information in those two videos that explains what CCP is trying to do. Don't be the ill-informed player that endlessly spouts; "They dun took our Ishtars, dang nab-it." Links to EC: max pleb level achieved. But yes, that's why they don't buff everything.
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery Prolapse. 2500	Posted - 2015.07.04 01:28:00 - [658] - Quote Actually, the problem IS the drones. Not because they are "a battleship sized weapon on a cruiser platform". it's that they break the traditional EVE philosophy of Short Range = high DPS, Long Range = low DPS. With sentries, you get high DPS, end of-story, to very long ranges for a cruiser. Compare a sentry ishtar's DPS at 75km to any high-DPS gank turret or HAM cruiser hull. ishtar can actually do DPS, AC, blaster, pulse, HAM ships are <30km at best. Best you can do to project high DPS is the Cerb with HAMs out to about 50km, or Orthrus. That's the problem in a nutshell. Sentry drones, if their DPS was literally carved in half, would be fine. An Ishtar doing 250-350 DPS at 55 + 55km? No problem, totally competitive with the Eagle, Munnin, Zealot. So what, you say, they will just drop heavies and get 650 DPS again. Great - slow, lumbering Ogres can't chase anything down. They take ages to reach their targets at 50km, have tracking issues, have less hitpoints, and are thus essentially a short-range damage option. No problems there. I doubt we will see this change, however. it's just too sensible. Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA ~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 383	Posted - 2015.07.04 03:55:34 - [659] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: That's the problem in a nutshell. Sentry drones, if their DPS was literally carved in half, would be fine. An Ishtar doing 250-350 DPS at 55 + 55km? No problem, totally competitive with the Eagle, Munnin, Zealot. If it were my choice they'd make super heavy drones and sentries a thing and they'd nerf current sentries' damage and the new sentries' tracking. Gives battleships more than just 50/mb over T1 cruisers too.
Medina Riper The Groove Bay runners 0	Posted - 2015.07.04 11:34:01 - [660] - Quote So much could be done diferently With this your hurting PVE players becouse of PVP fleets!!!!! T2-¦s ARE suposed to be better, HAC ARE suposed to hit hard. Thats why they take so long to train. That-¦s why theyr in the ADVANCED cruizers tab. You could just create a command mod or siege mod that fleet boosters can use to mitigates the over traking or bandwidth of drone boats in system. This alone would reduce a lot of damage delt by sentrys or any other drone for that matter. I spent months training HAC-¦s and drones for what? Just too see my choosen PVE ship get nerfed in every new release CCP lauches? I simply don-¦t use guns at all. I will have to cross train to other faction cruizer and missiles (since i don-¦t like guns hence the drone training) and there goes another set of months training for them. Making a slow boat even slower? 1 extra low slot for an extra nerfed DDA? 1 less mid slot to hurt shield buffers or tankers? Everyone can point me for bitching for such a small nerfing, but my problem is i don-¦t know when this will stop. It-¦s seems easy-¦er to keep nerfing on and on than to look at it in a creative manner. Cya all o7
Hullender Biafra' State 3	Posted - 2015.07.04 12:37:40 - [661] - Quote Crimson Grimslow wrote: Thanatos Marathon wrote: Mah DDAs! sadface (minor change, shouldn't be that big a deal, will need to do maths). Edit: Confirmed, not a big deal to other drone boats. Just enough to bring them back in line a bit. +1 on DDA changes. I concur i was scared for a second but the changes wont effect me too badly +1 for drone damage amps It won't affect you too badly but for people like me who have spent most of their time in eve training nothing but drones particularly for PVE it becomes a problem. It means we'll spend more time doing PVE we don't like to make up for the damage loss to keep isk income at the same level. Sad part is if you look at ships like the Tristan, it isn't popular because of its dps, the Gila and Worm were over powered from the beginning because of several factors like good mobility, impressive tank and dps. There are balanced ships including drone boats you hardly see in the game that match and sometimes out dps ships like the worm, like a gank fit ishkur. A flat out nerf to all drone boats makes no sense to me and I wish there was better data to show something I'm perhaps missing. If these problem drone boats were individually adjusted it'll make more sense rather than this nerf to every single ship in the game that fits a dda. And yeah it'll concern you too if you have 10mil sp and 6mil of that sp is in drones. Doesn't matter anyway patch notes are out.
Rhedea Gorthaur Legion Imperium Mordor 17	Posted - 2015.07.04 18:59:02 - [662] - Quote Just a thought; why not make sentry drones an anti-drone weapon (can't shoot ships) fit them with blaster or other pistol weapons. limited cargo so when they run out you have to reload in your drone bay. Battle ship weapons should be on a ship not a drone.
Ordala University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.07.04 19:03:19 - [663] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes. rly? small? LOL u guys rly know what you do? At this point you guys have to think about a refund of SP or total redesign of drones not only one nerf after another! Ppl spend lifetime to skill drones and stomp it to the ground.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 16319	Posted - 2015.07.04 19:25:19 - [664] - Quote Ordala wrote: CCP Rise wrote: One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes. rly? small? LOL u guys rly know what you do? At this point you guys have to think about a refund of SP or total redesign of drones not only one nerf after another! Ppl spend lifetime to skill drones and stomp it to the ground. Titan pilots got nothing when they nerfed them several times. You deserve nothing for training into a fotm and then getting stung. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2950	Posted - 2015.07.04 19:38:54 - [665] - Quote Ordala wrote: CCP Rise wrote: One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes. rly? small? LOL u guys rly know what you do? At this point you guys have to think about a refund of SP or total redesign of drones not only one nerf after another! Ppl spend lifetime to skill drones and stomp it to the ground. Had nearly max drone skills since before DDAs were around and most drones modules only had T1 versions. PVE drones were only Gallente drones and PVP drones were only Minmatar drones. This is a small Nerf to drones overall , and we finally get an armor Ishtar. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Panther X High Flyers Gentlemen's.Club 102	Posted - 2015.07.04 21:56:32 - [666] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. I think that you are looking at it the wrong way though Rise. Drone ships should be bandwidth restricted, but downwards compatible, not upwards. If you don't want to lock classes, which is ok with me, (as long as you can't go up) adjust the bandwidth of drone capabilities. You did it once already with Guristas ships, now finish the job by overhauling all ships so that only battleships and carriers can use 5 sentries (or more). Ishtars would still be able to use sentries and heavies, but restricted to 3 because of bandwidth etc. My super smells of rich Corinthian Leather
E1ev1n Unknown Crusade 4	Posted - 2015.07.05 14:08:28 - [667] - Quote Kibitt Kallinikov wrote: Sumeragy wrote: HiddenPorpoise wrote: Why did the level of literacy drop so sharply in the past 3 pages? The drake didn't take a <6% drop in damage. I would say more, it did lost a Weapon slot and the heavy missiles where nerved now they are buffing it again (the heavy missiles). The Drake lost also a lot of Tank. Old Drake: 7 missile launchers, 5% kinetic missile bonus = 8.75 effective launchers New Drake: 6 missile launchers, 10% kinetic missile bonus = 9 effective launchers I'm not sure if there was ever a point where it had 7 launchers with 10% bonus, but the new Drake definitely deals more kinetic DPS than the old one. The old drake had the same kinetic damage profile. So your calculations are off sir.
E1ev1n Unknown Crusade 4	Posted - 2015.07.05 14:18:33 - [668] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: E1ev1n wrote: While I believe I understand why you felt the need to adjust DDAs I don't at all agree with the decision as it is not an "Ishtar" module but rather a "Drone" module which I am fairly certain is clear in their descriptions. The issue I see with this is an over-reaching nerf hammer hitting every drone based dps ship not to mention the ones using a complement of drones and guns in balance. Surely there is a better way to reduce DPS (if that is in fact what you are trying to do to Ishtars) than changing DDAs as they will affect more than just Ishtars. Did you miss that part? CCP Rise wrote: Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows: Yeah I did, who knew a goon could be useful too. I am still not happy with DDA's being nerfed, the changes last summer were all about nerf hammering the drones too. It's not the right way to do this, if damage is low in other hull classes buff their damage amplifiers respectively don't just take from drones because it's a top level (most costly sp wise to be good) weapon system. I am mentioning this because previously this year the nerf hammer has also hit carriers which fly drones as well, other cap ships are included in my assessment of weapon systems. Overall I could realistically see damage output of Ishtars going up based on the change of a mid slot to a low slot.
tbms Arbiters of the Void Advent of Fate 0	Posted - 2015.07.05 17:14:45 - [669] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes. Will the Ishtar be balanced after this? Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know! small balance changes ? YES IT WILL B BALANCED AGAIN , YES TOO MUCH NOT USE IT
Egillief Tsun Pampa Corp 1	Posted - 2015.07.05 20:27:36 - [670] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE, we are going to make the following changes: ... At least you provide information what you want to get fixed. Kudos for trying!!! Question: What is the PVP meta for Ishtar? What is it that needs to be fixed? My guess is, it is still sentries and the unique ability of a cruiser hull to be actually good at kitting even after this hull change. Just to throw it out again: sentries need stationary game play enforced. move out of of drone scope range and sentry drones self destruct (ok maybe to harsh, auto disconnect. double the scope range.). DDA nerf. ok. What exactly is the problem with anything else NOT a Ishtar hull that fits DDAs? I'm confused.
Oxide Ammar 208	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:36:38 - [671] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Ordala wrote: CCP Rise wrote: One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes. rly? small? LOL u guys rly know what you do? At this point you guys have to think about a refund of SP or total redesign of drones not only one nerf after another! Ppl spend lifetime to skill drones and stomp it to the ground. Titan pilots got nothing when they nerfed them several times. You deserve nothing for training into a fotm and then getting stung. That's why many Titan pilots left the game, don't kid yourself. Lady Areola Fappington: -áSolo PVP isn't dead!-á You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Captain Nuf Zeura Brotherhood Mordus Angels 5	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:50:19 - [672] - Quote Okay quack nerfers. You win. The -1 mid +1 low change has me selling my Ishtars alone. Take away Sentry Bonus If you really want to kill Ishtars like you did the other HACs - and as it seems obvious this is the goal - take away some bandwidth too - call it a day. And this whole business about DDA nerfs is simply ludicrous. Resist the urge. Simple is better.
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2566	Posted - 2015.07.05 22:09:31 - [673] - Quote I honestly would rather see a more unique bonus on the tempest or at least an application bonus instead. An application bonus would also match up with the other (3?) attack battleships having bonuses similar.
Zeetchmen Lowsey Pirates Inc. Easily Excited 5	Posted - 2015.07.06 01:15:15 - [674] - Quote I can't wait or flying drone boats to be even less fun becuase CCP and the nerfbat are inseprable due to their balance inability
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2015.07.06 06:13:00 - [675] - Quote Captain Nuf wrote: Okay quack nerfers. You win. The -1 mid +1 low change has me selling my Ishtars alone. I actually like the slot change. It's a good way to take away some of the shield-preference, which is a good thing. The speed and pgen changes however. ...
Bunyip Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2015.07.06 06:27:04 - [676] - Quote Alright, here's my thoughts on the Ishtar: I love the Ishtar for my PvE, but I will admit that it is a bit OP. The best solution I can think of: Give the Ishtar a 10% bonus to damage and HP of all drones instead of nerfing one particular type of drone Increase the bandwidth of Sentries to 30 mb Give Battleships a 150 bandwidth Switch out the +5 km drone control range bonus with a 5% Armor Resist bonus Reduce powergrid regen to maybe 80-90% of what it is now Keep slot layout (5 mid, 5 low) This will nerf the Ishtar without hampering many of the other ships. It will force some coding changes, but those are mainly to the Geddon and the Domi.
Yeng Constantine Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2015.07.06 08:03:12 - [677] - Quote It would have been better to buff other ships to counter drone boats. The SP investment on drones affects alot.
Spugg Galdon Nisroc Angels 717	Posted - 2015.07.06 08:08:57 - [678] - Quote Bunyip wrote: Alright, here's my thoughts on the Ishtar: I love the Ishtar for my PvE, but I will admit that it is a bit OP. The best solution I can think of: Give the Ishtar a 10% bonus to Damage and HP of all drones instead of nerfing one particular type of drone 5% bonus to all drone Tracking and Optimal Increase the bandwidth of Sentries to 30 mb Give Battleships a 150 bandwidth Switch out the +5 km drone control range bonus with a +5% Armor Resist bonus Reduce powergrid regen to maybe 80-90% of what it is now Keep slot layout (5 mid, 5 low) This would make the Ishtar's bonuses look like this: Gallente Cruiser per level: +5% to Drone Tracking and Optimal Range +7.5% bonus to Drone Max Velocity Heavy Assault Cruiser per level: +10% Drone Damage and HP +5% to Armor Resistances Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MWD sig radius This will nerf the Ishtar without hampering many of the other ships. It will force some coding changes, but those are mainly to the Geddon and the Domi. Keep the same stats as the current (pre-nerf) Domi. Or they could have just swapped the drone bonuses from the Eos and made the Eos good and the Ishtar more brawler based. This way two ships would have been fixed for the price of one!
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 758	Posted - 2015.07.06 09:38:59 - [679] - Quote Lili Andedare wrote: ** this piece of **... brainless dev... ALL ships sucks so Ishtar Op? Lets nerf all dronboats coz we are genius dev!111 It's the Ishtar is that OP and broken, all of the other ships are just fine, honey. Remember to take your pills in time. // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] // [Cruisers Online]
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 16334	Posted - 2015.07.06 09:39:09 - [680] - Quote Oxide Ammar wrote: baltec1 wrote: Ordala wrote: CCP Rise wrote: One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes. rly? small? LOL u guys rly know what you do? At this point you guys have to think about a refund of SP or total redesign of drones not only one nerf after another! Ppl spend lifetime to skill drones and stomp it to the ground. Titan pilots got nothing when they nerfed them several times. You deserve nothing for training into a fotm and then getting stung. That's why many Titan pilots left the game, don't kid yourself. There are more titans today than ever. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 16334	Posted - 2015.07.06 09:40:45 - [681] - Quote Yeng Constantine wrote: It would have been better to buff other ships to counter drone boats. The SP investment on drones affects alot. Powercreep is bad. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 758	Posted - 2015.07.06 09:42:42 - [682] - Quote http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 Some people are just oblivious. // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] // [Cruisers Online]
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 1822	Posted - 2015.07.06 12:01:16 - [683] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 Some people are just oblivious. What telling is that whoever made that chart didn't eve bother with missiles.... Relatively Notorious By Association My Many Misadventures Inaugural C&P Thunderdome Champion
Natalia Abre-Kai 18	Posted - 2015.07.06 13:52:02 - [684] - Quote Funny how there is no one that is saying the Myrm, Eos, or the Prophecy are "OP" yet still get hammered with the DDA nerf. Also how about those drone related implants that seem to not exist. Ya, some "balance".
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1981	Posted - 2015.07.06 14:30:24 - [685] - Quote Natalia Abre-Kai wrote: Funny how there is no one that is saying the Myrm, Eos, or the Prophecy are "OP" yet still get hammered with the DDA nerf. Also how about those drone related implants that seem to not exist. Ya, some "balance". Edit: Lets not even mention that drones are destructible or that they have to travel to target (aside from sentries). 2% per mod on a damage mod is hammered now? What was it called when HML got nerfed then?
Deacon Abox Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 512	Posted - 2015.07.06 14:57:58 - [686] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Natalia Abre-Kai wrote: Funny how there is no one that is saying the Myrm, Eos, or the Prophecy are "OP" yet still get hammered with the DDA nerf. Also how about those drone related implants that seem to not exist. Ya, some "balance". Edit: Lets not even mention that drones are destructible or that they have to travel to target (aside from sentries). 2% per mod on a damage mod is hammered now? What was it called when HML got nerfed then? Your first statement/question is valid. The DDA nerf is not a hammering. It would have been better if they had kept to Ishtar specific remedies. That is without killing the sentry Ishtar. As to your second question, the answer is hammered, and rightly so. This was because Tengus, Drakes, and HMs were everywhere and dominating the game for three years. As to your included stealth whine about the new missile mods, I have confidence that team Fozzie and Rise will figure it out. The missile formula and the current speed and signature stats in the game do not leave much room between missiles being OP or still underperforming. This is especially so with a lack of effective specific targeted anti-missile ewar, and the semi-removal of firewalling as a counter to volley missile spam. It is a shame that the Ishtar slots are being pushed more toward lows. It was one of the longstanding unique things about the Ishtar. Shield fits may still be possible, but not as durable. The real fix to the HAC/Ishtar or Tech III metas though would be to buff BC and BS agility and warp speed a little. Then a slight hp buff for each would also make them more attractive. Those little things along with the bomber/warp changes would breath some new life into those two classes of ships and reduce the prevalent use of HACs and Tech IIIs. CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
Utopia Atheras Powder and Ball Alchemists Union 43	Posted - 2015.07.06 16:26:47 - [687] - Quote The major problem with the Ishtar is that it is the only cruiser size hull capable of fielding a full set of battleship grade weapons. There might be other minor issues, but it's the full flight of sentry drones that throw everything out of balance. To me, logically the solution should center around the removal of Sentry Drones. An incredibly simple solution would be nerfing the bandwidth down to a 100MB/s. This would help as it would limit the number of deployable sentries to 4, but not impact any of the other aspects of the ship and how it's used in fleets. With the DPS reduced by 20% it could still do more DPS at a longer range than some AHACs, but it's a start and further tweaks could be implemented from there. I don't understand why, instead of a relatively simple solution CCP opted to make a great number of changes with increasing complexity and nerf around the issue? Considering rebalancing is happening all the time, I expect some of the proposed changes will be reverted at some point, which will be a massive pain due to the myriad of introduced changes.
Utopia Atheras Powder and Ball Alchemists Union 43	Posted - 2015.07.06 16:31:46 - [688] - Quote Panther X wrote: CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. I think that you are looking at it the wrong way though Rise. Drone ships should be bandwidth restricted, but downwards compatible, not upwards. If you don't want to lock classes, which is ok with me, (as long as you can't go up) adjust the bandwidth of drone capabilities. You did it once already with Guristas ships, now finish the job by overhauling all ships so that only battleships and carriers can use 5 sentries (or more). Ishtars would still be able to use sentries and heavies, but restricted to 3 because of bandwidth etc. +1 on this. Many moons ago, when everyone realized the Ishtar is OP, my very fist thought was, restrict the bandwidth to a 100MB/s.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 1825	Posted - 2015.07.06 16:59:09 - [689] - Quote Utopia Atheras wrote: Many moons ago, when everyone realized the Ishtar is OP, my very fist thought was, restrict the bandwidth to a 100MB/s. Or, restrict the drone bay to 200m^3 like the VNI. When you can't carry two full sets of spares, killing the sentry drones becomes a far more viable counter. Not to mention it would keep with the general trend of Amarr drone boats having lower bandwidth but bigger bays than Gallente drone boats. Ishtar gets both? WTH? Relatively Notorious By Association My Many Misadventures Inaugural C&P Thunderdome Champion
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1984	Posted - 2015.07.06 17:07:18 - [690] - Quote Utopia Atheras wrote: The major problem with the Ishtar is that it is the only cruiser size hull capable of fielding a full set of battleship grade weapons. There might be other minor issues, but it's the full flight of sentry drones that throw everything out of balance. To me, logically the solution should center around the removal of Sentry Drones. An incredibly simple solution would be nerfing the bandwidth down to a 100MB/s. This would help as it would limit the number of deployable sentries to 4, but not impact any of the other aspects of the ship and how it's used in fleets. With the DPS reduced by 20% it could still do more DPS at a longer range than some AHACs, but it's a start and further tweaks could be implemented from there. I don't understand why, instead of a relatively simple solution CCP opted to make a great number of changes with increasing complexity and nerf around the issue? Considering rebalancing is happening all the time, I expect some of the proposed changes will be reverted at some point, which will be a massive pain due to the myriad of introduced changes. When the sentry damage bonus was nerfed from 10%/level to 5%, it had pretty much the same effect than removing a sentry from them. Look at what it did to their usage. The number of sentries is not the problem. It never was anyway. There is nothing inenrently wrong with fielding sentry from a cruisers as long as you don't also let it kite around it, field a rather strong tank for a cruiser, range and application choice over a rather wide spectrum AND make their effective counter a faction BS because their engagement range is mostly covered only by weapon that shoot in their natural T2 resist. (Missile with cerberus kinetic damage bonus or rails with kinetic/termal damage profile.) A monster was spawned because too many cards just fell exactly in the spots they could to make it worse.
Steven Hackett Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 192	Posted - 2015.07.06 18:00:33 - [691] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. Looks at Rise Looks at the Gila Looks at Rise CCP Rise wrote: Gila: Medium drone powerhouse (remember the Medium Drone buff in the above linked Dev Blog) Keeps looking at Rise
Gingergirl Redhead Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.07.06 18:25:03 - [692] - Quote What kind of population increases can we expect as a result of the (obviously wise) decision to nerf all droneboats because one of them was overpowered? A thousand or eleventy thousand?
T'l Deem Zelotic Economics Karezza Rabbit Wholes 0	Posted - 2015.07.06 18:45:04 - [693] - Quote Midori Tsu wrote: Bienator II wrote: have you considered splitting the dps bonus into dps+rof bonus like all other damage mods do? I guess thats also the reason why the DDAs have those non integer dps boost values. one of the reasons why ships like the worm are so silly in frig fights is because of the insane alpha. On paper they would project worse than an algos, but IF worm drones hit the frig is half dead - no time to rep against that. due to ~legacy code~ you can't change the drone rof, only damage. So EVE is like the power grid across north america? We know it works, just not exactly how it works? Did they fire the programmers that knew? Or did they leave for greener pastures? Interesting indeed!
Andreus Ixiris Duty. Circle-Of-Two 5379	Posted - 2015.07.06 18:48:02 - [694] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Powercreep is bad. People keep justifying this questionable change with "powercreep is bad," but at some point all choices need to remain viable. If they nerf drones too hard, drones become unviable. Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1985	Posted - 2015.07.06 18:55:14 - [695] - Quote Andreus Ixiris wrote: baltec1 wrote: Powercreep is bad. People keep justifying this questionable change with "powercreep is bad," but at some point all choices need to remain viable. If they nerf drones too hard, drones become unviable. If they buff everything, it ONLY leed to powercreep. That is where the issue is. If you buff all Hacs to Ishtar elvel,t hen you ahve to take a look at eevry ship they were designed to counter and get countered by at the very minimum. THen you ahve to do apsses on all ship that also interact with the newly balanced slasses. Or you nerf drones because they overperform on a few hull class anyway. Drones are not getting killed because of a 2% damage nerf on the damage mod.
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 1865	Posted - 2015.07.06 20:55:58 - [696] - Quote Ishtar still very powerful, they match battleship weapon systems (dominix). IMHO drones should be nerfed as themselves, not by DDA.
Tunox Teekaix TT Express 0	Posted - 2015.07.06 21:47:02 - [697] - Quote I can't see how nerfing drones in general is going to solve any issues. What seems obvious from an objective standpoint, is that the entire system of weapons calculation has become massively convoluted by years of adjustment, such that even CCP can no longer gauge the outcome until they've had time to stand back and see it for themselves. This clearly says the people who should have control don't have control, at least not to the extent they need to have. And then after making adjustments they're up against players who will find every which way they can to adapt to and circumvent those adjustments. It's a little bit like trying to sculpt custard. Nice idea, but the whole thing is eventually going to largely regain its original shape as before. You can also see how massively convoluted it is by reading the vast number of diverse points being made by players, all of which are either right, wrong or at some place between those two extremes, simply because the game accommodates that kind of infinite diversity. It just means that there really can't ever be a definitive solution to anything under the current system. So ultimately, you can only do one of two things : rethink the entire system from scratch, or just leave it alone. Fiddling with it may justify paying some clever people good salaries, but it only ever generates more work for itself that way and in the end, just leaves heck of a confusing mess.
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2574	Posted - 2015.07.06 22:01:34 - [698] - Quote Tunox Teekaix wrote: I can't see how nerfing drones in general is going to solve any issues. What seems obvious from an objective standpoint, is that the entire system of weapons calculation has become massively convoluted by years of adjustment, such that even CCP can no longer gauge the outcome until they've had time to stand back and see it for themselves. This clearly says the people who should have control don't have control, at least not to the extent they need to have. And then after making adjustments they're up against players who will find every which way they can to adapt to and circumvent those adjustments. It's a little bit like trying to sculpt custard. Nice idea, but the whole thing is eventually going to largely regain its original shape as before. You can also see how massively convoluted it is by reading the vast number of diverse points being made by players, all of which are either right, wrong or at some place between those two extremes, simply because the game accommodates that kind of infinite diversity. It just means that there really can't ever be a definitive solution to anything under the current system. So ultimately, you can only do one of two things : rethink the entire system from scratch, or just leave it alone. Fiddling with it may justify paying some clever people good salaries, but it only ever generates more work for itself that way and in the end, just leaves heck of a confusing mess. You are describing how most R&D departments work. Just look at how early space programs worked. There were dozens if not hundreds of failed launches and modules throughout the early stages. And even today there are still bugs and problems. You don't wait until you have a perfect solution. Nothing would ever get done. And starting from scratch is essentially harder and more prone to failure than tweaking and adjusting.
Danmal Proioxis Assault Force Exodus. 20	Posted - 2015.07.06 23:49:20 - [699] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. CCP Rise, this statement is, unconditionally, false. Correct is that drones are not locked to the size of the ship conditional on the drone bandwidth of the ship. Hence, no, I cannot fit an Ogre II, a Sentry, or a Gecko in my Maulus. In fact the best counter example to this argument is the Guristas line of Worm, Gila, Rattlesnake. No, I cannot fit a Gecko in my Gila. Nor would a person of sane mind fit anything but small drones in a Worm or medium drones in a Gila. The implication for Drone rebalancing would be straightforward. It would be perfectly possible to restrict sentries to any ship class by adjusting the drone bandwidth sentries require (and by adjusting the drone bandwidth and drone bays of intended ships accordingly). That you do not want to is a different story and perhaps the right thing. But water hold, your argument does not (I think Master Yoda said that).
Natalia Abre-Kai 19	Posted - 2015.07.07 00:54:27 - [700] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Natalia Abre-Kai wrote: Funny how there is no one that is saying the Myrm, Eos, or the Prophecy are "OP" yet still get hammered with the DDA nerf. Also how about those drone related implants that seem to not exist. Ya, some "balance". Edit: Lets not even mention that drones are destructible or that they have to travel to target (aside from sentries). 2% per mod on a damage mod is hammered now? What was it called when HML got nerfed then? So you are saying the nerf is not going to effect said ships? Okay.
Sargon Matrix Perkone Caldari State 2	Posted - 2015.07.07 01:23:49 - [701] - Quote Why does CCP's concept of re-balancing consist of nerfing everything?
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2574	Posted - 2015.07.07 01:26:26 - [702] - Quote Natalia Abre-Kai wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Natalia Abre-Kai wrote: Funny how there is no one that is saying the Myrm, Eos, or the Prophecy are "OP" yet still get hammered with the DDA nerf. Also how about those drone related implants that seem to not exist. Ya, some "balance". Edit: Lets not even mention that drones are destructible or that they have to travel to target (aside from sentries). 2% per mod on a damage mod is hammered now? What was it called when HML got nerfed then? So you are saying the nerf is not going to effect said ships? Okay. Nope. He questioned your use of 'hammered'.
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2574	Posted - 2015.07.07 01:27:11 - [703] - Quote Sargon Matrix wrote: Why does CCP's concept of re-balancing consist of nerfing everything? It's easier to hammer a nail or two down, than to try and pull the rest up.
Mazzara Gale Force Contractors 26	Posted - 2015.07.07 01:33:43 - [704] - Quote I normally keep an open mind with ccp's changes but I have to disagree on the drone nerf. `No matter how much you scrub, how hot of water you use,-áyou can't wash shame!`
bassy nook Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.07.07 02:59:51 - [705] - Quote Bunka en Daire wrote: Why u just dont delete drone boats from game??? Even better u can mix up vexor and ishtar in one ship, so no more efforts for nerfing. Or better why u just do not BUFF other ships, so u must nerf all drone boats, because of tiiiiit BLOBERS? So when some1 invest year in training drones, u just nerf them and u make that one year of training pointless... Bad thing with all this nerfing is beacuse u base all that on +200 mans fleet...so....do u think all eve players are part of CFC, PL, and other so called alliances who enjoy to blob 200 ishtars on one Maelstrom??? Exactly#!! So much training time wasted. I felt the same way when they changed the blueprint system. I spent years researching ME and PE to just in one day losing almost all of it.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1985	Posted - 2015.07.07 03:25:29 - [706] - Quote Natalia Abre-Kai wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Natalia Abre-Kai wrote: Funny how there is no one that is saying the Myrm, Eos, or the Prophecy are "OP" yet still get hammered with the DDA nerf. Also how about those drone related implants that seem to not exist. Ya, some "balance". Edit: Lets not even mention that drones are destructible or that they have to travel to target (aside from sentries). 2% per mod on a damage mod is hammered now? What was it called when HML got nerfed then? So you are saying the nerf is not going to effect said ships? Okay. No I'm not but I guess what you just said you can't read. I had doubt about it since you could not make a realistic evaluation of the nerf presented by CCP Rise but I guess it's worse than I though...
Stragak 19	Posted - 2015.07.07 03:37:16 - [707] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Dez Affinity wrote: You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. Whack an Ishtar. Yes but some of us still remember the drake before the glory days, during the glory days, and after the glory days... "Oh look, the cat is sitting in the litter box and pooping over the side again" every time we go through these "rough patches". In good humor, and slight annoyance, Boiglio -á-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238130&p=82
The Mach STEEL CITY. Illuminati Confirmed. 5	Posted - 2015.07.07 03:42:00 - [708] - Quote Nerfing carriers and supercarriers again? So much for making isk via carrier... may as well move to highsec and run incursions, MUCH less risk and WAY better reward. -1. (try again)
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 686	Posted - 2015.07.07 03:50:50 - [709] - Quote Rowells wrote: Sargon Matrix wrote: Why does CCP's concept of re-balancing consist of nerfing everything? It's easier to hammer a nail or two down, than to try and pull the rest up. If only they could hammer down the right nails....seems like they are just hammering the nails they don't want to pull even more with the DDA changes and just tapping the bad nails sticking out. I see the hull changes and maybe its me with some time in sniper cerbs....2 slot glass cannon tanks (what I ran sometimes) look bad on paper but you have to remember the range you can pull (sentry gets some reach as well, sometimes apples and oranges can live together lol).....is also part of your tank. try to be deep falloff or just out of range and tank not even hit hard much if done right and you get some lucky breaks. Ishtar doctrine I would not be surprised will ride on that more. But time will tell about that I reckon.
Bert96 Bertopolis Spatial Distortions 0	Posted - 2015.07.07 05:27:16 - [710] - Quote Tempest buff: +1 Regarding the Ishtar, why not just remove the sentry gun bonuses? It's the only cruiser that gets to use battleship size weapons (and gets bonuses for them). Instead of playing whack-a-mole, just take off the sentry bonuses and be done with it. If you guys really want to balance the Gallente with their sentry drones, just put them on a BC with the same bonuses but they've got no business being on a cruiser.
Zenmaster Aihaken Lost Valkyries 5	Posted - 2015.07.07 05:36:31 - [711] - Quote I've been skilling drones for, I dunno, over half a year. I want my money back.
Singe Walker Domi Nostrae Darwinism. 0	Posted - 2015.07.07 05:45:19 - [712] - Quote Just so I have this straight: 1. We identified that the Ishtar is powerful. 2. We need to fix that, so we are going to change some of the ships attributes (kudos, this makes sense) 3. Hmmm also lets nerf ALL the drones in game, that should fix the Ishtar! Problem is not with drone damage, the problem is with the Ishtar's sentry drone bonus. you lowered all drone damage, so effectively the Ishtar is STILL the best drone boat, all that was accomplished was nerfing everything else. Now that is definitely one of the most ineffective changes I have seen. other than that, the rest sounds interesting!
Kibitt Kallinikov Catastrophic Operations Get Off My Lawn 4	Posted - 2015.07.07 06:01:37 - [713] - Quote Singe Walker wrote: Just so I have this straight: 1. We identified that the Ishtar is powerful. 2. We need to fix that, so we are going to change some of the ships attributes (kudos, this makes sense) 3. Hmmm also lets nerf ALL the drones in game, that should fix the Ishtar! Problem is not with drone damage, the problem is with the Ishtar's sentry drone bonus. you lowered all drone damage, so effectively the Ishtar is STILL the best drone boat, all that was accomplished was nerfing everything else. Now that is definitely one of the most ineffective changes I have seen. other than that, the rest sounds interesting! CCP has identified that drone boats in general are seeing more use than any other boat, regardless of whether it is an Ishtar or not. That is why they are nerfing all drone boats. They're gambling that the proposed changes will make the Ishtar into less of a shield sentry sniper for PvP and thus open up competition on that front. We'll see how things change very soon.
Ghokhu The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.07.07 09:31:26 - [714] - Quote Oh Lord im so happy that World of Warships is now open Beta, cause honestly? Besides of Incursions /if you have the luck to get in fleets that is/ nothing is really worth it for making isk. That said, CCP is going the way to make us pay for monthly fee + buying PLEX to get isk for ships, which you cannot use or lose cause NO ONE wants to fight. Tired of sitting in station or at titan to wait and drop some poor sucker who is ratting. Tired of gatecamping in lowsec so we can kill someone who hits autopilot or is too new to really know the ways around EVE. EVE was fun, now its more work then fun. So CCP please nerf it all so we can start over with EVE 2.0 Have fun, im out to sink some warships...muhahaha P.S.: BTW when do you actualy plan to release Valkyrie ? 2017? 2025 ? Never?
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 763	Posted - 2015.07.07 10:09:48 - [715] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 Some people are just oblivious. What's telling is that whoever made that chart didn't eve bother with missiles.... Possibly because CCP forgot to include them? The original can be found http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla/ http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66946/1/STEVE_7.png Adjusted truGäó version: http://i.imgur.com/z4ynWV9.png // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] // [Cruisers Online]
dor amwar Interstellar Renegades Advent of Fate 3	Posted - 2015.07.07 10:11:01 - [716] - Quote nino (nerf in name only)
Crippen I N E X T R E M I S Circle-Of-Two 0	Posted - 2015.07.07 10:28:07 - [717] - Quote remove sentry bonus to tracking. lower drone BW to 100. introduce medium sentries.
AngelFood 25	Posted - 2015.07.07 10:41:08 - [718] - Quote Where you get your statistics from is beyond me .. ishtar still twice dps? insane now ruined .. did you forget it only has 2 rig slots ccp need to get a new statistics analyst .. or just get one instead of using popularity freaks that you hired as devs.
Drake Naari Draconian Proficio Infinitum 0	Posted - 2015.07.07 11:05:46 - [719] - Quote Okay, first of all I just want to say that at least they are trying to rebalance the game, and the Dev Post said that the drone changes was due to the fact of the overwhelming use of drone boats. They want others to fly ships other than the ones that were posted along with the changes. Before throwing a fit, please reread the post and don't just look at numbers.
Chatelaine Superior Angels Dust 2	Posted - 2015.07.07 12:02:34 - [720] - Quote THAT ishtar balance nothing changes, - gonna continue fleet fights of ishtars with bouncers. All needed to do just - ISHTARS CAN'T USE SENTRY DRONES. eh.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1607	Posted - 2015.07.07 12:19:20 - [721] - Quote Zenmaster Aihaken wrote: I've been skilling drones and Ishtar for, I dunno, over half a year. I want my money back. Trains into worlds most OBVIOUSLY overpowered hull and weapon. These are nerfed. Cries "unfair" that they are now maybe in the same league as everyone else. Aaaaah eve-o forums. Delivering shiptoasting 24/7/365
Quadima HyperDreams Studios 144	Posted - 2015.07.07 12:43:32 - [722] - Quote Hmz... basic tempest buffed, fleet tempest not ? Now the basic ship is better than the much more expensive "fleet" version. FAIL.
BadGuy NoRules Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.07.07 12:49:59 - [723] - Quote It's not a rebalancing. It's next step against PVE and buying Plex for ISK. So many people use Ishtar for PVE? CCP will damage ballance because they don't like when ppl buy Plex ingame. I can't play more than a few days per month and sometimes 2-3 hours in the night. When CCP does earning ISK too dificult I'll not have ISK for PVP ships and I will definitively resign from EVE. So Plex price (ISK) is too high (thanks for bubble) and PVE ships nerfed again. I see statistics: from Jan 2015 you have lost 1/4 players. CCP please: make good price for GTC or Plex in GBP currency. Now 1 Plex costs 19.95EUR or 16.99-ú in UK (24EUR). Are you kidding?
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1985	Posted - 2015.07.07 12:53:14 - [724] - Quote AngelFood wrote: Where you get your statistics from is beyond me .. ishtar still twice dps? insane now ruined .. did you forget it only has 2 rig slots Name one T2 ship that has more than 2 rig slots.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1607	Posted - 2015.07.07 12:54:16 - [725] - Quote Quadima wrote: Perhaps all marauders, it's kinda lame that these terribly expensive ships that require a huge amount of training have less damage than pirate bs, and sometimes barely on par with Tech1 versions. Apparently you've not seen what an angry marauder is capable of.... BadGuy NoRules wrote: they don't like when ppl buy Plex ingame. You literally couldn't have less of a clue about this. Literally, impossible.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1985	Posted - 2015.07.07 12:54:41 - [726] - Quote afkalt wrote: Zenmaster Aihaken wrote: I've been skilling drones and Ishtar for, I dunno, over half a year. I want my money back. Trains into worlds most OBVIOUSLY overpowered hull and weapon. These are nerfed. Cries "unfair" that they are now maybe in the same league as everyone else. Aaaaah eve-o forums. Delivering shiptoasting 24/7/365 The funniest part is that if you've only been training for it for half a year, it was already aboard the nerf train. It's a slow train but it was on-board already...
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1607	Posted - 2015.07.07 12:59:12 - [727] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: afkalt wrote: Zenmaster Aihaken wrote: I've been skilling drones and Ishtar for, I dunno, over half a year. I want my money back. Trains into worlds most OBVIOUSLY overpowered hull and weapon. These are nerfed. Cries "unfair" that they are now maybe in the same league as everyone else. Aaaaah eve-o forums. Delivering shiptoasting 24/7/365 The funniest part is that if you've only been training for it for half a year, it was already aboard the nerf train. It's a slow train but it was on-board already... Plus training to T2 sentries takes a fairly short time. Well under 2 months. I did some tests and Gal BS IV and a full RR setup with T2 sentries is possible in under 2 months. So what the hell this guy did is beyond me. "Must train drones!" "ooooh shiny!!!!!!!"
Moep Maschine BINFORD The Volition Cult 1	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:01:44 - [728] - Quote realy `? I remember myselfs that CCpenis talked about walkin on station and some nicer features for this game and his players. But nothing happend. The only thing whats happend is F.U.C.K. ! The game gets worst more and more. The big changes are good for the big mass corps and ally's but not for each player where is sitting alone in this whole universe. With what do CCPenis adverseting ? EVE WORDS: The Universe is Yours's "haha good joke btw" I dont want to get the whole universe for me alone..... no - but CCPenis start adverseting like Politics, they do not do what he said to the folks. The changes a not for the single person and upper.... it is just for the big ones So in small and understanding words.....F.U.C.K. YOU and the stupid patches ! You bring nothing new in, all is like a fart against a hard wind. I dont like eve anymore, it is frustrating to see what they do and for what they want your money..... F.U.C.K. OFF !
Natalia Abre-Kai 19	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:02:41 - [729] - Quote I'm glad the Myrm, Eos, and Prophecy were included in this nerf for no apparent reason other than laziness.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1986	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:10:37 - [730] - Quote Natalia Abre-Kai wrote: I'm glad the Myrm, Eos, and Prophecy were included in this nerf for no apparent reason other than laziness. Yeah because BC are in such a good place a small nerf like that is what breaks the camel's back... All of those ship's users much be terribly sad now. All 26 of them...
Catalina Franklin Blind Assault Silent Infinity 0	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:13:37 - [731] - Quote Drone hate is getting old. And I think that you shouldn't nerf an entire skill set because of one ship. Why not modify the one ship in question to bring it in line instead of doing a blanket nerf and hurting hulls that didn't necessarily need a damage decrease to begin with.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 369	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:14:03 - [732] - Quote Its a torrential downpour of ratting tears in here. Hope everyone has their boots on. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
Moe Alabel Oblivion Incarnate Sock Puppet Federation 0	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:17:25 - [733] - Quote You have to wonder if the Devs have ever played the game with some of the changes that they implement. The recurring question in the this thread is why in the hell would you make a change that would affect all drones boats to address problems with one in particular? Below is an example of what the change actually accomplished Natalia Abre-Kai Posted: 2015.07.07 13:02 I'm glad the Myrm, Eos, and Prophecy were included in this nerf for no apparent reason other than laziness.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1608	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:18:03 - [734] - Quote Catalina Franklin wrote: Drone hate is getting old. And I think that you shouldn't nerf an entire skill set because of one ship. Why not modify the one ship in question to bring it in line instead of doing a blanket nerf and hurting hulls that didn't necessarily need a damage decrease to begin with. How many times do I need to quote myself in the same frikken thread?!?!?!??!?!??! afkalt wrote: How many times do I need to quote myself in the same frikken thread?!?!?!??!?!??! afkalt wrote: Kaivar Lancer wrote: Why is the DDA getting nerfed? Nerf the hulls, not the module. Other drone boats like the Dragoon just got nerfed for no reason. THIS IS WHY IT IS NOT ONE SHIP SAVVY?
Catalina Franklin Blind Assault Silent Infinity 0	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:24:46 - [735] - Quote afkalt wrote: Catalina Franklin wrote: Drone hate is getting old. And I think that you shouldn't nerf an entire skill set because of one ship. Why not modify the one ship in question to bring it in line instead of doing a blanket nerf and hurting hulls that didn't necessarily need a damage decrease to begin with. How many times do I need to quote myself in the same frikken thread?!?!?!??!?!??! afkalt wrote: How many times do I need to quote myself in the same frikken thread?!?!?!??!?!??! afkalt wrote: Kaivar Lancer wrote: Why is the DDA getting nerfed? Nerf the hulls, not the module. Other drone boats like the Dragoon just got nerfed for no reason. THIS IS WHY IT IS NOT ONE SHIP SAVVY? So because when I started this game I was pushed towards Gallente and Drones I should be punished. Drones have plenty of mechanics that don't make any sense but I don't see any changes on those. Just the damage. And I don't see any actual numbers on that post so how do I tell how much of a difference there really is?
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2954	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:25:59 - [736] - Quote Keep crying, I have lots of drones that need washed. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Natalia Abre-Kai 19	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:27:33 - [737] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Yeah because BC are in such a good place a small nerf like that is what breaks the camel's back... All of those ship's users much be terribly sad now. All 26 of them... Yes because all "26" of them deserved a nerf apparently.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1986	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:32:07 - [738] - Quote Natalia Abre-Kai wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Yeah because BC are in such a good place a small nerf like that is what breaks the camel's back... All of those ship's users much be terribly sad now. All 26 of them... Yes because all "26" of them deserved a nerf apparently. The BC didn't so much get nerfed as they just failed to evolve when other hull class get buffed. This is a clear example of why "pushing the bad one up" is not always a good solution. Frigs and cruiser were all brought up and it ended with some class falling in utilisation when they could not adapt. For the same reasons we should not bring all other HACS in line with the Ishtar and the drone damage prevalence needs to be dealt with by a nerf and not buffs to other ships. Are some droneboat not really deserving of a nerf? Yes. Should this prevent the closing of a problem because of some exceptions? No.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1986	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:34:31 - [739] - Quote Catalina Franklin wrote: So because when I started this game I was pushed towards Gallente and Drones I should be punished. Drones have plenty of mechanics that don't make any sense but I don't see any changes on those. Just the damage. And I don't see any actual numbers on that post so how do I tell how much of a difference there really is? It's 2% nerf on the damage mod. It amount to not all that much in the grand scheme of things and yet you are crying here. You are a typical case of "don't nerf me bro"...
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1608	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:35:40 - [740] - Quote Catalina Franklin wrote: So because when I started this game I was pushed towards Gallente and Drones I should be punished. Drones have plenty of mechanics that don't make any sense but I don't see any changes on those. Just the damage. And I don't see any actual numbers on that post so how do I tell how much of a difference there really is? You chased the known and obviously overpowered FOTM. Punished? No, I think not. Brought into line, more like it. What you are doing is whining about being brought into line, about no longer roflstomping comparable hulls. You'll forgive us if we are not sympathetic to your "plight" about no longer being better than everyone else. Here are some numbers http://i.imgur.com/yfeQpc4.jpg The only thing brighter than drones are bombs, which are AoE!!!
Starrakatt Hunter Killers. Forsaken Asylum 277	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:36:30 - [741] - Quote Catalina Franklin wrote: So because when I started this game I was pushed towards Gallente and Drones I should be punished. Drones have plenty of mechanics that don't make any sense but I don't see any changes on those. Just the damage. And I don't see any actual numbers on that post so how do I tell how much of a difference there really is? When I started this game I played Minmatar then they got nerfed to the ground. Missiles were the new thing. I trained them. They got nerfed. Then Blasters and Drones. I trained them. So what, cross train a bit, problem solved. And for your information: Drones haven't suddenly become useless - You lose what, 5% dps? Live with it. Sneaky bastard.
Vesan Terakol Black Saints Reverberation Project 116	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:40:01 - [742] - Quote OH NOES, the DDA nerf hurts so much! So, the 4 Navy Curators on my Stratios now have 15 less DPS exactly (380). Total of about 24 with the previous adjustment. This is a setup with no guns and I have sentry 4, interfacing 5. As with most other affected ships, you have the option to also fit guns (Might they be unbonused, they would still push another 80-100 DPS for a cruiser/battlecruiser) with the total horrendous drop in DPS becoming even less significant. I am sorry, but you can't seriously be crying that much. It is not logical, it is not supported by the scale of the change, most people won't even notice it!
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 369	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:54:36 - [743] - Quote Ghokhu wrote: Oh Lord im so happy that World of Warships is now open Beta, cause honestly? Besides of Incursions /if you have the luck to get in fleets that is/ nothing is really worth it for making isk. That said, CCP is going the way to make us pay for monthly fee + buying PLEX to get isk for ships, which you cannot use or lose cause NO ONE wants to fight. Tired of sitting in station or at titan to wait and drop some poor sucker who is ratting. Tired of gatecamping in lowsec so we can kill someone who hits autopilot or is too new to really know the ways around EVE. EVE was fun, now its more work then fun. So CCP please nerf it all so we can start over with EVE 2.0 Have fun, im out to sink some warships...muhahaha P.S.: BTW when do you actualy plan to release Valkyrie ? 2017? 2025 ? Never? Do something that involves you leaving high sec. Isk is easy to come across when your not hiding in lvl4s grinding isk in your afktar playing WoWS. Or, since you mention titans, stop relying on others for your content. If your only means of content is sitting on a titan, ship spinning or afktaring, then you are missing out on the better parts of the game. Get in a ship, open your map, search for active pilots in space or ships killed in the last 30min. Then go to those places and get fights. Easy. There, now you can create your own content and its not restricted to drone boats because of some dumb null blob doctrine, or for your isk ticks. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
Xenuria Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet 1014	Posted - 2015.07.07 14:17:51 - [744] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes. First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE, we are going to make the following changes: -1 mid slot, +1 low slot Decrease in mass from 1,100,000 to 1060000 Decrease in max velocity from 185m/s to 175m/s Agility going from .52 to .565 Power grid lowered from 780 to 740 Overall these changes should put a lot of pressure on speed based, shield fits (especially those using over-sized afterburners), forcing a tougher choice between the speed you get with shields and the survivability you get with armor. Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows: Drone Damage Amplifier I - 15% (was 16%) Drone Damage Amplifier II - 20.5% (was 23%) Dread Guristas Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Sentient Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Unit D-34343's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 24.5% (was (26.5%) Unit F-435454's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.15% (was 27.15%) Unit P-343554's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.8% (was 27.8%) Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 26.5% (was 28.5%) And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes. We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level. Will the Ishtar be balanced after this? Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know! In your attempts to fix drone based PVP you have once again shafted anybody who would even think for a second, that drones are a viable damage source in PVE. CSM 11 Candidate My Lore Predictions
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1609	Posted - 2015.07.07 14:49:25 - [745] - Quote Xenuria wrote: In your attempts to fix drone based PVP you have once again shafted anybody who would even think for a second, that drones are a viable damage source in PVE. It's a small nerf, get over yourselves. What these drone babies need, is a HML scale nerf, then you'll know all about it. Frankly drones are getting the feather duster treatment whereas heavy missiles took it so hard they've not sat down since mid-2012.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1987	Posted - 2015.07.07 15:24:19 - [746] - Quote Xenuria wrote: In your attempts to fix drone based PVP you have once again shafted anybody who would even think for a second, that drones are a viable damage source in PVE. Drones are still viable for PvE.
Elviria Bever Fabeltjeskrant Industries 0	Posted - 2015.07.07 16:08:46 - [747] - Quote Just a question, what of the tempest fleet issue? is it getting the same buff as the regular version...... I would hope the TFI would still be a better then the tempest?
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2578	Posted - 2015.07.07 16:09:46 - [748] - Quote Elviria Bever wrote: Just a question, what of the tempest fleet issue? is it getting the same buff as the regular version...... I would hope the TFI would still be a better then the tempest? nope
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1987	Posted - 2015.07.07 16:11:09 - [749] - Quote Elviria Bever wrote: Just a question, what of the tempest fleet issue? is it getting the same buff as the regular version...... I would hope the TFI would still be a better then the tempest? CCP Rise wrote: For now the TFI will not get the same bonus change. We'll see how this shakes out and evaluate after. You probably don't want to read anything in the thread and prefer to snowflake your way in to ask your question but at least reading the blue post would be nice.
Elviria Bever Fabeltjeskrant Industries 0	Posted - 2015.07.07 16:13:13 - [750] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Elviria Bever wrote: Just a question, what of the tempest fleet issue? is it getting the same buff as the regular version...... I would hope the TFI would still be a better then the tempest? CCP Rise wrote: For now the TFI will not get the same bonus change. We'll see how this shakes out and evaluate after. You probably don't want to read anything in the thread and prefer to snowflake your way in to ask your question but at least reading the blue post would be nice. oh sry derp......
Vesan Terakol Black Saints Reverberation Project 116	Posted - 2015.07.07 16:32:07 - [751] - Quote Elviria Bever wrote: Just a question, what of the tempest fleet issue? is it getting the same buff as the regular version...... I would hope the TFI would still be a better then the tempest? TFI is still vastly superior in therms of base hit points, fitting resources and the additional low slot, which could contribute to more than the 7.5% ROF difference in hull bonus at max skills (One t2 gyro would give you 10,5% ROF bonus and additional 11% damage, which, untill the 3rd stacking penalty is still more than 7.5% ROF ). As is, TFI is still a straight upgrade over the regular Tempest for 90% of cases.
Elviria Bever Fabeltjeskrant Industries 0	Posted - 2015.07.07 16:59:39 - [752] - Quote Vesan Terakol wrote: Elviria Bever wrote: Just a question, what of the tempest fleet issue? is it getting the same buff as the regular version...... I would hope the TFI would still be a better then the tempest? TFI is still vastly superior in therms of base hit points, fitting resources and the additional low slot, which could contribute to more than the 7.5% ROF difference in hull bonus at max skills (One t2 gyro would give you 10,5% ROF bonus and additional 11% damage, which, untill the 3rd stacking penalty is still more than 7.5% ROF ). As is, TFI is still a straight upgrade over the regular Tempest for 90% of cases. True that the third gyro, or damage mod does more, the difference is that this 10% at level 5 is on the ship skill so no stacking is applied, it is also true that you can use that low slot for something else, but the tempest now gets nearly that low slot back in damage without further stacking penalties
Sial Harkonnen Omni-InternOps 9	Posted - 2015.07.07 18:06:46 - [753] - Quote "We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level." cool, eh but yes, whats about the fleet tempest? will it see the same bonus? would be great and at least fair. btw, look at the typhoon/fleet typhoon... normal typhoon +5% / +5% fleet typhoon +7,5% / +7,5% and hands off the fleet typhoon! ok? dont change! thx.
So riya Lost in shadow Pasta Syndicate 12	Posted - 2015.07.07 18:42:43 - [754] - Quote ALL that changed its for nothing ... why the CCP have alot of time make the players hate them ?
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1987	Posted - 2015.07.07 19:02:45 - [755] - Quote Sial Harkonnen wrote: "We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level." cool, eh but yes, whats about the fleet tempest? will it see the same bonus? would be great and at least fair. btw, look at the typhoon/fleet typhoon... normal typhoon +5% / +5% fleet typhoon +7,5% / +7,5% and hands off the fleet typhoon! ok? dont change! thx. Read the thread and you will get the answer to your question.
Sial Harkonnen Omni-InternOps 9	Posted - 2015.07.07 19:17:21 - [756] - Quote "Read the thread and you will get the answer to your question." ccp just wants a feedback - that was my feedback. dont wont to read all 38 pages...
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 370	Posted - 2015.07.07 19:21:33 - [757] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: For now the TFI will not get the same bonus change. We'll see how this shakes out and evaluate after. Here Sial. It was on the first page of the thread. You didnt need to read all 38 pages. Just the first. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
Ademaro Imre EVE University Ivy League 0	Posted - 2015.07.07 19:43:52 - [758] - Quote The problem is skill points. Most epopel enter game, and every eventually trains for the Gallente master race, if they are not already Gallente. Everyone needs to train drone skills anyway, just give eveyone skill points to catch up on their training for the Gallente race, because this game is just becoming that - Gallente Ships vs. Gallente ships.
Harroit Probe Patrol Low-Class 0	Posted - 2015.07.07 20:33:24 - [759] - Quote http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png I don't think I have to explain why drones are capsuleers best friends with the current meta. And these damage stats doesn't completely suprice me. Most of those ships are heavy drone focused bonus wise. Not to mention that the shield fitted ships often leaves you with the option of extra drone dps for a ship that's already great at it. I must admit I haven't tried to look up how much these stats outweigh missile/turret based dps atm. But I'm curious if you.. CCP devs. Have also considered the amount of time people are under E-war pressure. I'm talking ECM, Damps, tracking disrupt (misses) and cap pressure that keeps cap based weapons silent. Basically all the stuff that can prevent or reduce incoming turret dps? Some other stuff. Bait tanks often go neuts or small guns to get the PG for dual plates. Mainly leaving drones for the dps. Fast kitters that can out run your guns. Here drones are often your only chance of applying dps when using mwd. And there's alot of other situations were you often throw your drones at your opponent as first part of the foreplay either to test him or to see if his gangbanger buddies will come or to eat some of shields before crossing the line of no return. A battleship being attacked by frigs/destroyers that orbit close with ab makes drones a perfect option. But yes.. Drones are awesome.. I don't think they're OP atm. But they are can be so versatile that it certainly makes up for it. Drone ships will still probably be great but I'm still a little bit saddened by this fact that the nerf bat toke this swing. I'm not gonna touch the Ishtar subject in this post. What happens, happens. And as a final statement... not to be too serious on the matter. Hey CCP your Ishtar called and: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGhP3p6lI3U
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 370	Posted - 2015.07.07 20:43:14 - [760] - Quote Ademaro Imre wrote: The problem is skill points. Most people enter game, and eventually train for the Gallente master race if they want to do pvp, if they are not already Gallente. Everyone needs to train drone skills anyway, just give everyone skill points to catch up on their training for the Gallente master race, because this game is just becoming that - Gallente Ships vs. Gallente ships or industrials. Or just give each race some of the master Gallente pvp ships. People fly gallente cause they cant think for themselves or make the other race's ships viable. Some of this is due to gal being overbuffed atm. The other part is just uninspiring pilots being lazy. Click button, recieve bacon mindset from nullblob doctrines doesnt help either. I do find it amusing that short range medium blasters could still hit me at 25km though. Kinda strange.. thats ac territory.. hence why acs are useless in most roles. Blasters and rails were overbuffed. Drones overbuffed, gal ships overbuffed in speed or agility, undercutting the one advantage minmatar have. There are definitely some balancing issues to sort out. But you can still find roles for the other races. Just need to be creative. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
ISD Decoy ISD Community Communications Liaisons 668	Posted - 2015.07.07 20:54:59 - [761] - Quote I have removed a couple posts that violated our rules: Quote: 2. Be respectful toward others at all times. The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others. 3. Ranting is prohibited. A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents. 4. Personal attacks are prohibited. Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated. 5. Trolling is prohibited. Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. 8. Use of profanity is prohibited. The use of profanity is prohibited on the EVE Online forums. This includes the partial masking of letters using numbers or alternate symbols, and any attempts at bypassing the profanity filter. 23. Post constructively. Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting. 27. Off-topic posting is prohibited. Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster. ISD Decoy Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Pj Sephorum Sorry About Your Face Stella Nova 0	Posted - 2015.07.07 21:03:40 - [762] - Quote If you give the tempest a boost, maybe the Rokh is in for a bit of treatment? Always love the feeling of flying that ship...although its practically useless.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony 9	Posted - 2015.07.07 23:45:26 - [763] - Quote Moe Alabel wrote: You have to wonder if the Devs have ever played the game Sure they did. BoB ring a bell? People were crying then, people are crying now. Jeez. "MAH PROPHECY!!??" how about this: your Proph has highslots. Nobody's forcing you to stick neuts in there and DDAs; you might as well fit launchers and BCUs. It's not like they nerfed the baseline damage; only the "extra" damage. Those 2 DDA you probably have on it will still do their job, just a little less of it. Pro tip: if you want said Prophecy to be able to actually catch up with targets, consider replacing them with two Nanos
Launch Probe School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 9	Posted - 2015.07.08 00:06:14 - [764] - Quote Not happy with the Ishtar changes. If you toss 300 people in ANY ship and have them attack a primary target, they are going to kill it. Then on top of that you nerf drone damage. So now your nerfing every single carrier in eve, your nerfing every single sub cap with a drone bay in eve. That's not how to balance a game, that's how to give a middle finger to every one who researched and plays with any type of drone period. If you want to have people continue to play a multitude of different ships continue to have a wide diverse field of choices. Every ship in the game, should be viable. Especially if you put 300 pilots into it. I could put 300 pilots into an ibis and nothing would be safe. Going by that logic, lets nerf the ibis its clearly over powered, because 300 of them just took out some dudes carrier. Get real, and look at things apples to apples. Forcing people to play certain ships, or fly ships only 1 way doesn't breed diversity.
Melisa Zeal Deaf Eaters Gatekeepers Universe 0	Posted - 2015.07.08 00:46:33 - [765] - Quote I think the DDA nerf wasn't needed but I can live with it I guess, it's not a big deal. The Ishtar Sentry bonus is the thing.. as multiple people have said.
Drizzer Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2015.07.08 01:36:01 - [766] - Quote People will be crying about ishtars destroying them again tomorrow, once they realize the extra low is in reality a buff payed for by the mid nerf. But its still a buff guys.
Mina Sebiestar Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate 910	Posted - 2015.07.08 03:42:42 - [767] - Quote Mandatory drop in on tempest fleet issue. Rate of fire it up as well. Its a battleship too.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1991	Posted - 2015.07.08 13:37:17 - [768] - Quote Mina Sebiestar wrote: Mandatory drop in on tempest fleet issue. Rate of fire it up as well. Its a battleship too. Alternatively nerfs every other faction battleship to a subpar dmg to their tier 1 counterpart as a new way of dealing with faction ships. Mandatory "did you even read the second blue post" ?
Shade Alidiana PROSPERO Corporation MinTek Conglomerate 75	Posted - 2015.07.08 17:26:04 - [769] - Quote TFI would appreciate its rof as well
Starrakatt Hunter Killers. Forsaken Asylum 282	Posted - 2015.07.08 17:26:39 - [770] - Quote Launch Probe wrote: Not happy with the Ishtar changes. If you toss 300 people in ANY ship and have them attack a primary target, they are going to kill it. Then on top of that you nerf drone damage. So now your nerfing every single carrier in eve, your nerfing every single sub cap with a drone bay in eve. That's not how to balance a game, that's how to give a middle finger to every one who researched and plays with any type of drone period. I do play with every types of drone boats in the game, and I'm pretty happy with the changes. Maybe we'll start seeing more turret/missile based ships instead of ubiquitous drone boats everywhere... Quote: If you want to have people continue to play a multitude of different ships continue to have a wide diverse field of choices. Every ship in the game, should be viable. Exactly, death to Drone Online, bring back lasers, autocannons and missiles CCP, please. Quote: Especially if you put 300 pilots into it. Yet we don't see 300 of other ships, we see 300 Drone Boat again and again and again. 300 other weapon system based ships don't happen often enough. CCP is doing what they need to do. Yeah \o/ Sneaky bastard.
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 29	Posted - 2015.07.08 17:30:37 - [771] - Quote Starrakatt wrote: do play with every types of drone boats in the game, and I'm pretty happy with the changes. Maybe we'll start seeing more turret/missile based ships instead of ubiquitous drone boats everywhere... You should leave your 100man gangs... there are other ships everywhere. 1:5 to 1:10 in my region (1drone ship, 10 others), especially turrets ships are everywhere.
Starrakatt Hunter Killers. Forsaken Asylum 282	Posted - 2015.07.08 17:35:53 - [772] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: Starrakatt wrote: do play with every types of drone boats in the game, and I'm pretty happy with the changes. Maybe we'll start seeing more turret/missile based ships instead of ubiquitous drone boats everywhere... You should leave your 100man gangs... there are other ships everywhere. 1:5 to 1:10 in my region (1drone ship, 10 others), especially turrets ships are everywhere. Oh, I am not flying drone boats that much, I like diversity. That (slight) nerf to DDA is just gonna help balance all class types, excellent work. Sneaky bastard.
Aidan Hawking Marmolex Dharma Corporation 0	Posted - 2015.07.09 05:37:37 - [773] - Quote I've been waiting for the Ishtar fanboys to have their ship nerfed for a long time, please give me all your tears.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 688	Posted - 2015.07.09 06:21:30 - [774] - Quote Aidan Hawking wrote: I've been waiting for the Ishtar fanboys to have their ship nerfed for a long time, please give me all your tears. psst....like drizzer posted above this was a disguised buff. Mid slot loss was a debatable tank hit. You can run run and gun 2 slot tanks and not die. Key is to not get tangled up into a fight. Something Ishtar did already. Stop, drop and roll. Stop the ship, drop the sentries....roll the hell out as fast as they can. DPS loss covered by stacking of DDA. thanks to the....wait for it.......extra low slot. DDA was hit and the primary ship it was meant to hurt got a low slot to correct that. Yes excessive mod stacking is usually bad. When nothing else is catching your eye and you want more damage....it quickly becomes a why the hell not decision.
Rat Scout Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 24	Posted - 2015.07.09 08:06:07 - [775] - Quote Again, thanks for the low slot buff on my Ishtar CCP My isk/h is much better.
Tim Nering R3d Fire 97	Posted - 2015.07.09 09:08:30 - [776] - Quote im breakin out the tempest! autocannons are still autocannons, but im having fun!!! we supposed to be having fun right?
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2955	Posted - 2015.07.09 11:00:36 - [777] - Quote As I said earlier in the thread, the Ishtar needed to lose a few hundred shield HP and gain some armor HP. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Laura Audier Sudden Collapse 0	Posted - 2015.07.09 13:06:11 - [778] - Quote Why don't you remove the Ishtar from the game instead of crippling it in each second patch?
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1994	Posted - 2015.07.09 13:17:06 - [779] - Quote Laura Audier wrote: Why don't you remove the Ishtar from the game instead of crippling it in each second patch? Because then they would have to design another drone T2 cruiser instead of just fixing the one they have issue with.
SFM Hobb3s Wrecking Shots Black Legion. 331	Posted - 2015.07.09 14:17:54 - [780] - Quote Reduce drone bay to 25m3. Make the Ishtar a rail platform. Oddly, its still vastly superior to the muninn. Go figure.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1994	Posted - 2015.07.09 14:30:56 - [781] - Quote SFM Hobb3s wrote: Reduce drone bay to 25m3. Make the Ishtar a rail platform. Oddly, its still vastly superior to the muninn. Go figure. Then both gallente HACs are hybrid based... Heavy drone armor brawler is my call. Just give it the speed to stay on target and mids for full tackle.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 312	Posted - 2015.07.09 17:38:14 - [782] - Quote My EFT is broken or something? Myrmidon can field only 4 sentries...what? The bandwith Rise, bandwith. If drone BC can field less than cruiser what are we talking here? "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 383	Posted - 2015.07.09 22:29:59 - [783] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: My EFT is broken or something? Myrmidon can field only 4 sentries...what? The bandwith Rise, bandwith. If drone BC can field less than cruiser what are we talking here? And the Eos has 125 AND a gun bonus. I mean, why would anyone ever use an ishtar?
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2015.07.10 06:06:08 - [784] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: My EFT is broken or something? Myrmidon can field only 4 sentries...what? The bandwith Rise, bandwith. If drone BC can field less than cruiser what are we talking here? The myrmidon is a completely different ship. different boni, t1, different class, can actually fit guns etcetc. Ah and it costs just 50millions.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 312	Posted - 2015.07.10 06:16:20 - [785] - Quote HiddenPorpoise wrote: Jeremiah Saken wrote: My EFT is broken or something? Myrmidon can field only 4 sentries...what? The bandwith Rise, bandwith. If drone BC can field less than cruiser what are we talking here? And the Eos has 125 AND a gun bonus. I mean, why would anyone ever use an ishtar? I don't see Eoses everywhere. What is the purpose of tiering then? Dessies eat frigs, cruisers eat dessies, BC eat cruisers, no wait cuisers eat everything above their class. Now we have D3, even better, but hey new ships, whooo. Sentries are BS class weapons, if lower class may have ability to use them they shouldn't field whole pack of them, even if they are drone boats. Why stratios has no problem with them? 100mb bandwith, but no, Rise want to eat the cookie and have the cookie. "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 312	Posted - 2015.07.10 06:29:46 - [786] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: The myrmidon is a completely different ship. different boni, t1, different class, can actually fit guns etcetc. Ah and it costs just 50millions. Can fit guns but don't have bonuses to them, cost is meaningless. "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
Spugg Galdon Nisroc Angels 719	Posted - 2015.07.10 10:06:49 - [787] - Quote Quote: [Ishtar, Armour Fleet] Damage Control II 1600mm Steel Plates II Adaptive Nano Plating II Co-Processor II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II 50MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II Bouncer II x5 Warden II x5 Curator II x5 Yeah, the meta is only going to shift into armour and it's going to have even more fekkin' range. with just a squad boost (no links) this fit has: Damage and Projection: Drone Control Range - 172km Curator II's - 455 DPS @ 90km (+20km) [similar tracking to a Heavy Beam Laser II using multi frequency] Bouncer II's - 425 DPS @ 70km (+90km) [similar tracking to a 720mm Howitzer II using T1 ammo] Warden II's - 410 DPS @ 120km (+70km) [3 times faster tracking than a 250mm Railgun II using Spike ammo] Tank: 47k eHP (omni) Resist profile - 65.7 77.7 88.8 69.2 145m Sig Rad w/out prop 500m Sig Rad with prop Mobility: MWD Speed - 1221m/s cold (1732 m/s hot) Cap stable under propulsion Aligns in 6.4s Sensors: Max locked Targets - 7 Targeting range - 176km cold Sig Resolution - 404mm Sensor Strength - 27.6 In comparison: An 1600mm plate Zealot with HBL II's shooting Aurora gets 323 DPS @ 105km (+16km) Over 100 DPS less 1/3 the tracking of Curators 47.5k eHP (Similar Tank) 1430 m/s under MWD (can't run and gun) 103km lock range An Eagle can project as well as an Ishtar but with only half the DPS. The Muninn is still not worth mentioning Why can't you see that having the 5km control range, 5% damage, optimal and tracking bonus to sentry drones is the real problem? The current mobility and Slot layout are better than previously. However, please, just realise that the sentry drone bonuses on this hull need to be removed. Swap them with the bonuses of the Eos. The Eos could really use the projection that the Ishtar enjoys but will be hamstring by the inherent issues with being a CBC hull (mobility and size). The Ishtar would then be inline with the other HAC's in projection and application when used in the "Fleet" style. It would then have excellent heavy drone abilities in the close range brawler style.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 690	Posted - 2015.07.10 10:49:53 - [788] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: Why can't you see that having the 5km control range, 5% damage, optimal and tracking bonus to sentry drones is the real problem? . I have come to the hypothesis CCP has stuff on a dart board and 2 scenarios are possible as a result . No one at CCP can shoot to save their lives and double in/out to play a proper game of (darts) cricket would just kill them. So they must have put this on the double ring and miss it again and again. Or They have a darts pro who is missing this on purpose and looking real good at making it look natural. The DDA was needed admittedly to some extent as some drone boats were moving up in the ranks. But that again....could be solved by targetted fixes. Its not like CCP doesn't know how to shut down worm....they did a bang up job for years at it. Its just the group punishment is bleeding over too much. And the problem children have loopholes to offset most of the nerf.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 312	Posted - 2015.07.10 11:27:01 - [789] - Quote Zan Shiro wrote: No one at CCP can shoot to save their lives and double in/out to play a proper game of (darts) cricket would just kill them. So they must have put this on the double ring and miss it again and again. Or They have a darts pro who is missing this on purpose and looking real good at making it look natural. Hahaha. I love the cricket, but we always playing cut-throat version. CCP propably have problem with 301, regular. Zan Shiro wrote: The DDA was needed admittedly to some extent as some drone boats were moving up in the ranks. But that again....could be solved by targetted fixes. Its not like CCP doesn't know how to shut down worm....they did a bang up job for years at it. Gila and worm are exactly in possition CCP wants them. Top of the food chain. Now I'm waiting for T3 nerf, which is obvious and put those hulls in hangars for years. CCP will never get that "the chart" is making ships more and more inbalanced. "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2015.07.10 11:29:19 - [790] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: The myrmidon is a completely different ship. different boni, t1, different class, can actually fit guns etcetc. Ah and it costs just 50millions. Can fit guns but don't have bonuses to them, cost is meaningless. If cost is meaningless... why doesnt everyone use faction mods? I don't because of the price (except for 1 module)
ArmyOfMe No.Mercy Triumvirate. 432	Posted - 2015.07.10 11:45:18 - [791] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: For now the TFI will not get the same bonus change. We'll see how this shakes out and evaluate after. Can you please explain the reason behind this? QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 312	Posted - 2015.07.10 12:09:51 - [792] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: If cost is meaningless... why doesnt everyone use faction mods? I don't because of the price (except for 1 module) Cost is meaningless for balancing the hulls. If it cost twice will it be more usefull? "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
Vesan Terakol Black Saints Reverberation Project 118	Posted - 2015.07.10 12:11:30 - [793] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: The current mobility and Slot layout are better than previously. However, please, just realise that the sentry drone bonuses on this hull need to be removed. Swap them with the bonuses of the Eos. The Eos could really use the projection that the Ishtar enjoys but will be hamstring by the inherent issues with being a CBC hull (mobility and size). Combat battlecruisers and issues with mobility? Maybe if you have no idea that that MMJD exists. So you intend to combine the plague of sentries with the plague of medium rails in one hull?
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 1862	Posted - 2015.07.10 12:29:54 - [794] - Quote I agree with folks who say that the sentry-specific bonuses are a large part of what makes the Ishtar so powerful. The combination of range, damage, and application in a cruiser hull puts it in a class of its own. But I feel like part of the problem is also that the Ishtar can achieve all of this using virtually no powergrid for its high slots, which leaves plenty left over for fitting tank, pop mods etc. I think CCP took a step in the right direction by nerfing the Ishtar's powergrid, but I would go further. I would remove the turret hardpoints altogether, and savagely nerf the powergrid to levels that assume that pilots can only fit things like Drone LInk Augmentors in their highs without using a fitting mod. You want neuts? Fitting mod. Remote rep? Fitting mod. You get the idea. This would force a sentry Ishtar to choose two or three of speed, tank, range, and damage. If Ishtars couldn't do all four at once, I think that would go a long way towards balancing them. If CCP is hellbent on keeping the Ishtar as a sentry sniper (and they certainly seem to be), then give up on the silly notion of it ever fitting guns and balance its powergrid accordingly. Relatively Notorious By Association My Many Misadventures Inaugural C&P Thunderdome Champion
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1996	Posted - 2015.07.10 12:59:06 - [795] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: I agree with folks who say that the sentry-specific bonuses are a large part of what makes the Ishtar so powerful. The combination of range, damage, and application in a cruiser hull puts it in a class of its own. But I feel like part of the problem is also that the Ishtar can achieve all of this using virtually no powergrid for its high slots, which leaves plenty left over for fitting tank, pop mods etc. I think CCP took a step in the right direction by nerfing the Ishtar's powergrid, but I would go further. I would remove the turret hardpoints altogether, and savagely nerf the powergrid to levels that assume that pilots can only fit things like Drone LInk Augmentors in their highs without using a fitting mod. You want neuts? Fitting mod. Remote rep? Fitting mod. You get the idea. This would force a sentry Ishtar to choose two or three of speed, tank, range, and damage. If Ishtars couldn't do all four at once, I think that would go a long way towards balancing them. If CCP is hellbent on keeping the Ishtar as a sentry sniper (and they certainly seem to be), then give up on the silly notion of it ever fitting guns and balance its powergrid accordingly. They could just split the apple in 2 if they want to go slow like removing either the tracking OR the optimal. Why are sentry the only weapon system where this kind of bonus exist anyway?
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 690	Posted - 2015.07.10 13:13:54 - [796] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: If cost is meaningless... why doesnt everyone use faction mods? I don't because of the price (except for 1 module) Cost is meaningless for balancing the hulls. If it cost twice will it be more usefull? This. CCP can't balance in the lowest common denominator. In this case the cheaper meta/t2 spamming player. As it takes just 2 out 8 players to not be cheap and splurge to create some fun moments real fast. Here for example is how old school dramiel spam started. A few of these flown well....could wreck larger numbers of say t2 frigs like AF's. As no AF love in sight at that time guess what many did? They ratted more and said can't beat em, join em. Dramiel got you home in one piece at its much higher isk cost than a cheaper AF did. This like the visa commericials of old said was priceless sometimes. CCP is also aware they do have the richer players who aren't scared to spend some isk. CCP long story short knows there are players who aren't saving up to be Chribba. They have 500 mil extra end of month they buy stuff. Can't take it with them as it were. This can get easier for players like who don't emo rage when we use RL to pay our sub. Rl money covers my sub due to play time constraints, if I make only 400 mil isk for the month....that's 400 mil fun money. This how I make eve fun tbh. Had me a nice run to jita today for example. Clearing up some final things for the night then off to play with some new toys.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1627	Posted - 2015.07.10 13:52:24 - [797] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: MWD Speed - 1221m/s cold (1732 m/s hot) Cap stable under propulsion That's like drake slow... This will really hurt them. It makes them far less able to dictate range successfully around sentry tracking an optimals, makes bubbling them that much more effective too. The old shield fits were a solid 20-25% faster. They'll still be effective to be sure (nothing wrong with that) but I feel like some decent counterplay has room to grow into the new space. Now if only the missile mods had been less bad, that would have afforded some excellent tools to shake the meta up but...whatever....can't have everything.
Spugg Galdon Nisroc Angels 719	Posted - 2015.07.10 15:47:34 - [798] - Quote afkalt wrote: Spugg Galdon wrote: MWD Speed - 1221m/s cold (1732 m/s hot) Cap stable under propulsion That's like drake slow... This will really hurt them. It makes them far less able to dictate range successfully around sentry tracking an optimals, makes bubbling them that much more effective too. The old shield fits were a solid 20-25% faster. They'll still be effective to be sure (nothing wrong with that) but I feel like some decent counterplay has room to grow into the new space. Now if only the missile mods had been less bad, that would have afforded some excellent tools to shake the meta up but...whatever....can't have everything. The other HACs aren't exactly super speedy and the 3 minute cooldown on an MJD is a very very long time in pvp The Eos would suit those bonuses much more than the Ishtar.
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2095	Posted - 2015.07.10 16:31:17 - [799] - Quote I am still saying... make the ishtar the armor version of the Gila... but instead of 2 drones give it 5 medium and better application bonuses to make up for lack of secondary weapon bonus... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Justin Cody Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens 290	Posted - 2015.07.12 23:34:02 - [800] - Quote HiddenPorpoise wrote: Jeremiah Saken wrote: My EFT is broken or something? Myrmidon can field only 4 sentries...what? The bandwith Rise, bandwith. If drone BC can field less than cruiser what are we talking here? And the Eos has 125 AND a gun bonus. I mean, why would anyone ever use an ishtar? Because its slow as fark with a big ole sig and more limited drone reinforcement and bonuses only apply to heavies and not sentries?
Barrogh Habalu Forever Winter Absolute Zero. 915	Posted - 2015.07.13 06:09:48 - [801] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: Cost is meaningless for balancing the hulls. If it cost twice will it be more usefull? If it costs twice, it means it takes lot more general effort to make the item. Should the item be better if it takes a lot more effort to acquire one? Let us not forget that when CCP said "balancing by cost is wrong", it was applicable the case that was very specific in many ways.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 313	Posted - 2015.07.13 06:38:59 - [802] - Quote Barrogh Habalu wrote: If it costs twice, it means it takes lot more general effort to make the item. Should the item be better if it takes a lot more effort to acquire one? In ideal condition, yes, but It's not that simple. What we have: SNI - around 472 mil Rattle - around 350 mil Players driven market. "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
Barrogh Habalu Forever Winter Absolute Zero. 919	Posted - 2015.07.14 06:14:10 - [803] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: Barrogh Habalu wrote: If it costs twice, it means it takes lot more general effort to make the item. Should the item be better if it takes a lot more effort to acquire one? In ideal condition, yes, but It's not that simple. What we have: SNI - around 472 mil Rattle - around 350 mil Players driven market. My point exactly. Worth noting that faction stuff is arguably harder to come by if you look at massive LP/tag costs of such items and the fact that activities you must do for LP are mostly worth doing for LP and not much else. So they are your main, sometimes only product you aren't going to give away for cheap. Prices on those items are only where they are because CCP introduced huge LP generators some time in the past. BPC drops, however, are basically nice bonus for activities that are already more or less worth doing without even considering those drops. In a sense, making a Rattle is less of an effort than making a SNI if you consider that a lot of issues associated with acquiring pirate ships are resolved anyway for reasons other than, well, farming them (ratting, sov holding, organizing logistics and infrastructure - you need them anyway if you live where you do), so for someone who "makes" BPCs they can as well be considered almost "free". Hence the prices, fully representative of individual effort required to be spent specifically on acquiring those items and nothing else. Add not negligible drop rate and here you go. Frostys Virpio wrote: They could just split the apple in 2 if they want to go slow like removing either the tracking OR the optimal. Why are sentry the only weapon system where this kind of bonus exist anyway? Apocalypse would like to remind the respectable audience of its existence. It also points out that it lacks damage bonus, however.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2033	Posted - 2015.07.14 14:46:19 - [804] - Quote Barrogh Habalu wrote: Apocalypse would like to remind the respectable audience of its existence. It also points out that it lacks damage bonus, however. That's 2 bonus slot from your hull being taken for those 2 stats. As a cost for this, it get's no damage, rof, armor resist, cap use, ... bonus after those 2 are given. The Ishtar gets it from a single bonus slot.
Spc One The Chodak Void Alliance 287	Posted - 2015.08.07 20:51:21 - [805] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level. So tempest now does more damage than vargur.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 688	Posted - 2015.08.10 11:21:37 - [806] - Quote I don't understand what is wrong with you devs. You base your decisions on which ships to nerf on what is the most popular? That is either lazy or just plain dumb. If a ship is not over powered then why nerf it just because it's popular? I've been flying the domi for years and it's never been the best at anything. For everything that I do with that ship there is some other ship that does it better. I like the versitility of the ship as it can do most things decently and I am lazy and like how drones don't require a whole bunch of micromanaging. I think laziness on the part of players figures more into why the dominix is so popular and not so much it being overpowered. I'm just not sure what business model works around figuring out what your customers like and then finding a way to make that more attractive. In eve anyone can fly any ship so there is no need to make all ships equal. Your attempts at balance only bring homogenization. I think you are going about the future path of this game all wrong and you are turning it more and more into WoW every day. I left WoW for a reason and if you guys keep down the balance path that you are on then I'll wind up leaving this game for the exact same reason.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1776	Posted - 2015.08.10 12:19:45 - [807] - Quote ergherhdfgh wrote: If a ship is not over powered then why nerf it just because it's popular? Thank god then that the ishtar was totally broken.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 688	Posted - 2015.08.11 00:35:42 - [808] - Quote afkalt wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: If a ship is not over powered then why nerf it just because it's popular? Thank god then that the ishtar was totally broken. That is your opinion. The devs have posted no facts that I have seen as justification for nerfing the ishtar other than it's popularity. As a person who didn't really fly them I can't speak from experience on the ishtar it's self and I am not commenting on if it needed to be nerfed or not since I did not fly it before and I do not fly it now and I've not even spent any time with it in EFT to know the numbers. Also I'm not a PvPer. Also you'd have a hard time convincing me any ship was broken when anyone can fly any ship. If the ship is so much better than every other ship then fly it. But again none of the above has anything to do with my main point. My main point is that all drone boats are getting nerfed due to the Ishtar. Also the only justification that is given is the fact that the ishtar and the Domi are very popular. I am saying that the fact that a ship is popular is not proof that it is over powered. It is just proof that people like it. Maybe they like it because it's over powered maybe they like it because it looks nice maybe they like it because it's easy to fly and they are lazy. I fly the domi all the time. I started flying the domi when drone dps was just super easy. Now drones take a little more management but I'm used to drones and it's the style that I like. The domi is out dpsed by most other Battleships. It has no tank bonus so it's tank I don't think is over powered however it's versatile in that it can have a decent tank for all 4 damage types. You pretty much have to use sentries in PvE to put any acceptable amount of damage on your targets which means that you are stuck in one spot. Yes you can use any damage type but your range is tied to your drone choice so you can't do therm at long ranges for example. I flew the Domi before drone damage mods even existed so I'll probably still fly it after the nerf. I'm not crying that CCP is nerfing my favorite ship into unusability. All that I am saying is that the fact that a ship is popular is not a good reason to nerf it. You can nerf a popular ship I'm just saying give some justification other than "everyone is flying it" especially when it comes to a ship like the domi which up until recently was the only of the 12 T1 Battleships which was a drone boat and even now there is only 2 of the 12. ( TBH I've never even looked at the Geddon since it's been changed.) anyway that's my rant and I just wanted to add that "the ishtar was totally broken" means nothing without some facts or context of some sort.
Kibitt Kallinikov Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 4	Posted - 2015.08.11 04:42:53 - [809] - Quote ergherhdfgh wrote: That is your opinion. The devs have posted no facts that I have seen as justification for nerfing the ishtar other than it's popularity. You seem to forget that devs don't play out thousands of players attacking each other with their doctrines, and therefore can only use the actual playerbase's actions as a measurement of the potency of their available options. In this case, Ishtars had been very dominant. The proof is in the story's telling, there need be no more. ergherhdfgh wrote: Also I'm not a PvPer. Also you'd have a hard time convincing me any ship was broken when anyone can fly any ship. If the ship is so much better than every other ship then fly it. Here you defeat your own logic, agreeing with what I said about what you reduce down to a popularity statistic that you easily dismiss. ergherhdfgh wrote: My main point is that all drone boats are getting nerfed due to the Ishtar. Also the only justification that is given is the fact that the ishtar and the Domi are very popular. I am saying that the fact that a ship is popular is not proof that it is over powered. It is just proof that people like it. Maybe they like it because it's over powered maybe they like it because it looks nice maybe they like it because it's easy to fly and they are lazy. So if a weapon system that projects damage better than other weapon systems with no fitting cost, care for tracking, is resistant to TD/damp/ECM, can select damage type, AND pumps out more DPS than its competition, I guess drone boats sound pretty balanced to you. CCP reduced their power because of this, but many would argue that drone control range shouldn't be purely SP based, that it should be shorter on smaller ships and longer on larger ships.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1781	Posted - 2015.08.11 07:25:36 - [810] - Quote ergherhdfgh wrote: That is your opinion. The devs have posted no facts that I have seen as justification for nerfing the ishtar other than it's popularity. As a person who didn't really fly them I can't speak from experience on the ishtar it's self and I am not commenting on if it needed to be nerfed or not since I did not fly it before and I do not fly it now and I've not even spent any time with it in EFT to know the numbers. Also I'm not a PvPer. Also you'd have a hard time convincing me any ship was broken when anyone can fly any ship. If the ship is so much better than every other ship then fly it. But again none of the above has anything to do with my main point. My main point is that all drone boats are getting nerfed due to the Ishtar. Also the only justification that is given is the fact that the ishtar and the Domi are very popular. I am saying that the fact that a ship is popular is not proof that it is over powered. It is just proof that people like it. Maybe they like it because it's over powered maybe they like it because it looks nice maybe they like it because it's easy to fly and they are lazy. I fly the domi all the time. I started flying the domi when drone dps was just super easy. Now drones take a little more management but I'm used to drones and it's the style that I like. The domi is out dpsed by most other Battleships. It has no tank bonus so it's tank I don't think is over powered however it's versatile in that it can have a decent tank for all 4 damage types. You pretty much have to use sentries in PvE to put any acceptable amount of damage on your targets which means that you are stuck in one spot. Yes you can use any damage type but your range is tied to your drone choice so you can't do therm at long ranges for example. I flew the Domi before drone damage mods even existed so I'll probably still fly it after the nerf. I'm not crying that CCP is nerfing my favorite ship into unusability. All that I am saying is that the fact that a ship is popular is not a good reason to nerf it. You can nerf a popular ship I'm just saying give some justification other than "everyone is flying it" especially when it comes to a ship like the domi which up until recently was the only of the 12 T1 Battleships which was a drone boat and even now there is only 2 of the 12. ( TBH I've never even looked at the Geddon since it's been changed.) anyway that's my rant and I just wanted to add that "the ishtar was totally broken" means nothing without some facts or context of some sort. Next time you go off ranting, trying reading TFThread first. How many times do I need to quote myself in the same frikken thread?!?!?!??!?!??! afkalt wrote: How many times do I need to quote myself in the same frikken thread?!?!?!??!?!??! afkalt wrote: How many times do I need to quote myself in the same frikken thread?!?!?!??!?!??! afkalt wrote: Kaivar Lancer wrote: Why is the DDA getting nerfed? Nerf the hulls, not the module. Other drone boats like the Dragoon just got nerfed for no reason. THIS IS WHY IT IS NOT ONE SHIP SAVVY?
Olo Amera The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.08.12 14:48:01 - [811] - Quote People still use sentries in PVE? Mine were replaced with Geckos awhile ago
swaatymec baaaatch Viziam Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.08.18 12:31:35 - [812] - Quote hi sorry to bug can I ask if you can add a thing where I can name my drones ? its so dam hard flying with 5 different drones just so I can keep them from eating each other . also little side note not as important as naming drones , with all the drone nerfing and such going on are you looking into other options for us drone users ? for example if you take drones and remove the part where they are our primary weapon why not change and add drones types that will rather see us using guns or them rock trowing monkeys for dps and drones for support only ?
Starrakatt Hunter Killers. Forsaken Asylum 291	Posted - 2015.08.18 14:06:00 - [813] - Quote swaatymec baaaatch wrote: hi sorry to bug can I ask if you can add a thing where I can name my drones ? its so dam hard flying with 5 different drones just so I can keep them from eating each other . also little side note not as important as naming drones , with all the drone nerfing and such going on are you looking into other options for us drone users ? for example if you take drones and remove the part where they are our primary weapon why not change and add drones types that will rather see us using guns or them rock trowing monkeys for dps and drones for support only ? It is called balance. Even after the 'nerf' drone boats are still the most used and popular ships in EVE. Stop complaining, they are still pretty good. Sneaky bastard.
Fibro Optic The Iron Bank and Trust 1	Posted - 2015.08.24 11:48:03 - [814] - Quote Cr Turist wrote: Love the tempest buff. Ishtar needs to not be able to use battle ship weapons. that is its main issue unless you plan to let the vaga use battleship guns. for god sakes stop nerfing supers! come out with the capital changes and be done with it stop nickle and diming supers just cash the check. The Ishtar does not Use Battleship Weapons ....... They use Medium Hybrid Cruiser size Guns and Drones. However, If By saying Battleship weapons, you are talking about Heavy Drones and Sentry Drones, even the Stratios, Navy Vexor and Vexor can use Sentry, Heavy Drones and Medium Drones. So i Do not get what you mean by saying "Ishtar needs to not be able to use battle ship weapons"
Fibro Optic The Iron Bank and Trust 1	Posted - 2015.08.24 11:54:05 - [815] - Quote swaatymec baaaatch wrote: hi sorry to bug can I ask if you can add a thing where I can name my drones ? its so dam hard flying with 5 different drones just so I can keep them from eating each other . also little side note not as important as naming drones , with all the drone nerfing and such going on are you looking into other options for us drone users ? for example if you take drones and remove the part where they are our primary weapon why not change and add drones types that will rather see us using guns or them rock trowing monkeys for dps and drones for support only ? You CAN Name your drones (Kind Of) If you right click on a type of drone in the drone Bay, you can ADD To New Group, and give that Group a Name. Then drag the rest of that type of drone into the group with it. I have a Group in my Dominix Named "The Dream Team", That group contains 2x Geko's, 2x T2 Hammerheads and 1x T2 Hobgoblin. Hope this helps you out.
HandelsPharmi Pharmi on CharBazaar 1725	Posted - 2015.09.07 19:26:31 - [816] - Quote Are there any plans to increase the RoF for the Tempest Fleet Issue as well? It seems to be a passive nerf to a special ship.... 5 % RoF with the same amount of turret hard points like the T1 version.

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