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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Kane Carnifex
Yard Evolution The Kadeshi
37
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Posted - 2015.06.23 09:46:15 -
[331] - Quote
I wouldn-¦t nerf all drone boats... i would nerf the ishtar
I am not able to see the big picture behind the drone nerf....
http://vesuvi.de - EVE & Food Porn in German...
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Maxwell Smiles
Exiled Kings The Fearless Empire
9
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Posted - 2015.06.23 09:52:15 -
[332] - Quote
Great Changes, Love them +1, but can we stop changing the ishtar, kinda getting bored refitting them every 6 weeks
How about changing the drone link augmenter as well Half the CPU usage and half the bonus provided by them so u need twice as many to get the same range, using up some of the utility highs that people complain about. It would also make it easier to fit onto smaller ships like destroyers etc that may want to use them but cant.
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Neok1337
MASS A DEATH Mordus Angels
1
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Posted - 2015.06.23 09:56:18 -
[333] - Quote
Someone posted on the first page and said about the ability to detach dps when you drop dentrys.
But how about if insted of dropping them they just set up a fixed orbit around the ship.
Then there would be less droping sentrys and kiteing away, then sentrys wouldnt have to be nerfed too much crippling their use in other ships. |
wopolusa
Dire Circumstances
15
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Posted - 2015.06.23 10:24:52 -
[334] - Quote
Hell's Hauler wrote:Just shows how out of touch CCP are, and how little they know of the current meta
It would be a easy fix to give the ishtar MEDIUM super bonused drones that didnt lose its offensive power, and removed the plague that is 70km away sentry **** machines
But no, you have nuked EVERY drone boat now
Seriously stop using a dart board to pick what to nerf and try playing your own game maybe?
You mean... providing the data showing that top damage dealers of virtually every sub-capital class are drone boats and then dropping 1-3% off the DDA damage multiplier is 'nuked'.
Is your only knowledge of 'nukes' based on korea or?? |
UCara
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.06.23 10:45:05 -
[335] - Quote
Oh My Lord!!!
Stop being stupid ccp, ishtars are not being used that much already, just nerf sentry bonus from it, stop screwing with the ship, why don't you rebalance the other HACs instead, GIVE instead of TAKING...
Game stability is soo good you put so much effort in nerfing stuff... |
Gary Goat
XDC-UK
50
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Posted - 2015.06.23 10:53:37 -
[336] - Quote
The problem with sentry drones is that they allow cruiser size ships to project damage out to ranges that no other cruiser sized hull can match. Couple that with the ability to detach from your main DPS source and it makes smaller, mobile ships like the ishtar insanly powerful.
How about having sentry drones use cap from their parent ship to maintain DPS/Range? There would essentially be two modes the drones can operate in.
Cap Mode: Exactly the same as current sentry drones but nos the parent ship to power themselves. Nos range limited to 10km. Cap use similar to medium turrets. (i'm talking old nos mechanics here, they keep draining cap)
Capless mode: Damage/range penalty. The drones switch to this mode if the parent ship moves out of range or runs out of cap.
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Kendarr
Zebra Corp The Bastion
48
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Posted - 2015.06.23 11:16:57 -
[337] - Quote
Alexander McKeon wrote:Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.
For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter.
Edit: for the sake of completeness regarding weapon size vs. hull size, I'll note that ABCs were specifically designed with design sacrifices (notably tank) in mind to compensate for their oversized guns, which i find a reasonable exception. Those hulls are balanced and have their uses, but do not distrort the meta to the point you're either flying Ishtars, or flying a fleet designed to counter Ishtars.
That is a very fair summary. I agree with this dude.
The Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls.
I know its easy when you see these changes to be like OMFG BBQ THESE CHANGES ARE STUPID, people should really try to give a little more constructive feedback. sure, you do not like these changes but how would you suggest tackling the wack an ishtar problem?
Zebra-Corp
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Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
239
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Posted - 2015.06.23 11:17:50 -
[338] - Quote
Nice to see you might be doing something to increase use of battlecruisers & battleships.
BUT you are still not listening to the majority and making the correct decision regarding the Ishtar and it's usage in PvP.
Please can you stop making changes which are affecting other ships where there is not a significant problem.
Just remove sentry drone use from the Ishtar and not make the current listed changes to the Ishtar which you are announcing here.
" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. "-áRick.
" Find out what ? "-áAbraham.
" They're screwing with the wrong people. "-áRick.
Season four.-á-á ' The Walking Dead. ' .
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Motorbit
HildCo Interplanetar Villore Accords
45
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Posted - 2015.06.23 11:24:02 -
[339] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Alexander McKeon wrote:Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.
For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.
from my perspective the damage bonus for undersized weapons make drone boats annoying. usually larger ships can either be fitted to be strong against smaller ships or ships of their own size, but not both. drone ships dont have this drawback and so they are very hard to counter.
note: im doing mostly small gang and solo stuff in lowsec. im not realy interested in large fleet fights or capital ship engagements, so i cant realy say anything about this oversized weapons argument. however, i would rather see the holy cow drone flexibility slaugthered then all drone damage nerfed to death untill all drone ships are useless. as an excample i think nerfing the ishkur currently is a realy bad idea, especially as assault frigates currently are very unattractive. |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
239
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Posted - 2015.06.23 11:26:09 -
[340] - Quote
The proposed drop in DDA performance isn't too bad I suppose but it isn't actually needed as there isn't much of a problem with PvE drone boats like the Obelisk. I did notice after the change to sentry drones before this that the Garde II isn't that good now so I would rather you fix the Ishtar by removing Sentry use from it than downgrade usage of other ships with sweeping changes.
Can CCP Rise please give his reasoning for not removing sentry drone bonuses or sentry drone use from the Ishtar please
" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. "-áRick.
" Find out what ? "-áAbraham.
" They're screwing with the wrong people. "-áRick.
Season four.-á-á ' The Walking Dead. ' .
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To mare
Advanced Technology
412
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Posted - 2015.06.23 11:41:04 -
[341] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Drone boats will get huge nerf on this DDA nerf. Problem is in ishtar, removing med slot - NICE! the difference in dps wont be that huge. and most of the ships who use drones where popular even before we had DDA so they will still be popular after this minor drop in dps but i agree w you the main problem is the ishtar so they should have just nerfed the ship not the mods
Anthar Thebess wrote: Wy we cannot go different way? Instead of nerfing DDA , buff gyros/ heat sinks/ etc.
because of power creep
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2925
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Posted - 2015.06.23 11:41:52 -
[342] - Quote
For those who cry the Ishtar should just be a medium drone ship, 5 Hammerhead IIs on a 50% bonused ship will only out DPS high damage heavy missiles on a 5% bonused ship. Every other weapon system using 5 units with a 5% damage bonus will out damage 5 Hammerhead IIs which get a 50% damage bonus.
Edit: Used a Gnosis as the testing ship, and remember Hammerheads are high damage drones so use the appropriate charges if you want to see the exact numbers.
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
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Valkin Mordirc
1143
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Posted - 2015.06.23 11:42:36 -
[343] - Quote
Quote:And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes.
So does this mean we won't get the battlecruiser rebalance till next month? =( =( =(
#DeleteTheWeak
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1439
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Posted - 2015.06.23 11:43:14 -
[344] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:For those who cry the Ishtar should just be a medium drone ship, 5 Hammerhead IIs on a 50% bonused ship will only out DPS high damage heavy missiles on a 5% bonused ship. Every other weapon system using 5 units with a 5% damage bonus will out damage 5 Hammerhead IIs which get a 50% damage bonus.
On paper, not so much in reality.
There is also the matter the drone ship can fit guns. That many do not is not due to fitting compromises so much as the fact they don't even need to. |
clipper shore
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2015.06.23 11:45:47 -
[345] - Quote
don't see the point of the tempest change if it still gets to the fight 1/2 hour after its over |
Blavish
BOVRIL bOREers Mining CO-OP Brave Collective
3
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Posted - 2015.06.23 11:49:06 -
[346] - Quote
This change is not good for carriers. Carriers become more useless. What is up with that? Nerfing ishtars is ok but why nerf carriers in the process? |
Augustus Risalo
Vulcans Forge
0
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Posted - 2015.06.23 12:01:43 -
[347] - Quote
The DDA change is pretty insignificant, it's not like they cut the % in half...
Nice to see the Tempest get some love! |
Lidia Caderu
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club
42
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Posted - 2015.06.23 12:04:26 -
[348] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:For those who cry the Ishtar should just be a medium drone ship, 5 Hammerhead IIs on a 50% bonused ship will only out DPS high damage heavy missiles on a 5% bonused ship. Every other weapon system using 5 units with a 5% damage bonus will out damage 5 Hammerhead IIs which get a 50% damage bonus.
Edit: Used a Gnosis as the testing ship, and remember Hammerheads are high damage drones so use the appropriate charges if you want to see the exact numbers. Use guns. Ishat may use 4 guns and a bonus for them. It will have even higher DPS than currently. So its possible to give 2 bonuses for drones and 2 for guns. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1439
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Posted - 2015.06.23 12:08:22 -
[349] - Quote
Lidia Caderu wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:For those who cry the Ishtar should just be a medium drone ship, 5 Hammerhead IIs on a 50% bonused ship will only out DPS high damage heavy missiles on a 5% bonused ship. Every other weapon system using 5 units with a 5% damage bonus will out damage 5 Hammerhead IIs which get a 50% damage bonus.
Edit: Used a Gnosis as the testing ship, and remember Hammerheads are high damage drones so use the appropriate charges if you want to see the exact numbers. Use guns. Ishat may use 4 guns and a bonus for them. It will have even higher DPS than currently. So its possible to give 2 bonuses for drones and 2 for guns.
Ishtar hasn't had bonused guns for the last two years there chief |
Tara Read
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
860
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Posted - 2015.06.23 12:25:59 -
[350] - Quote
I eagerly await Fozzie's Super "rebalance" along with these further damage reductions so I can finally "kite" with a 40 billion isk squad boosting paperweight that can't jump anywhere, can't damge anything, but will have several 35 USD "official skins" yet no defined purpose so I never log it in yet pay 15 USD a month for a virtual space penile extension....
Just kill off Supers and Titans so a majority of us can move on to another game. Because kiting frigates and not being able to warp to someone are such fing brilliant innovations conjured up by the brilliant Manfred Sidious. Guess I should have bought a Moracha instead of an Avatar, two combats toons and a Hel.
Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at http://hoistthecolors.org
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erg cz
ErgoDron
294
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Posted - 2015.06.23 12:29:37 -
[351] - Quote
Augustus Risalo wrote:The DDA change is pretty insignificant, it's not like they cut the % in half...
They do, actually. Dominix as PvE power horse got nerfed beacuse of PvP ship. Small nerf for ships with small numbers of DDA, but I have 5 of those fitted on my Dominix... IT IS A 10 % DPS NERF FOR ME !!! GRRR !!! |
Augustus Risalo
Vulcans Forge
0
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Posted - 2015.06.23 12:48:20 -
[352] - Quote
erg cz wrote:Augustus Risalo wrote:The DDA change is pretty insignificant, it's not like they cut the % in half...
They do, actually. Dominix as PvE power horse got nerfed beacuse of PvP ship. Small nerf for ships with small numbers of DDA, but I have 5 of those fitted on my Dominix... IT IS A 10 % DPS NERF FOR ME !!! GRRR !!!
So if you were doing 1000 DPS before, now it's 900 DPS, I don't think that is going to stop you from melting faces in missions. |
Augustus Risalo
Vulcans Forge
0
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Posted - 2015.06.23 12:50:41 -
[353] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:not being able to warp to someone
You can still warp to fleet members...? |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
813
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Posted - 2015.06.23 12:51:59 -
[354] - Quote
The problem is not just the Ishtar. The claim that CCP are breaking other drone boats with these changes is a bit odd. How do you break that which is already broken?
http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png
The solution I have in mind is a bit radical. Remove drone bonuses from hulls and delete drone buffing modules. Rebalance current drone bonused hulls to compensate. Drones change from a primary weapon system to supplementary assistance providing additional DPS or EWAR.
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1939
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Posted - 2015.06.23 12:58:25 -
[355] - Quote
MAH ISK TICKS!!!!! |
Anthar Thebess
1105
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Posted - 2015.06.23 12:59:08 -
[356] - Quote
To mare wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Drone boats will get huge nerf on this DDA nerf. Problem is in ishtar, removing med slot - NICE! the difference in dps wont be that huge.
It is not about dps change but about removing med slot , so shield ishar will be very impacted. Armor version just got buffed , but this is good trade off - as the shield one was very nasty , mostly because of the mobility of shield doctrine ( including logistics and all support ships)
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Lidia Caderu
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club
42
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Posted - 2015.06.23 13:00:36 -
[357] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Ishtar hasn't had bonused guns for the last two years there chief
So what? I dont any reasons of not giving it to Ishtar.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1439
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Posted - 2015.06.23 13:05:18 -
[358] - Quote
Oh sorry, I didnt read that like a suggestion as much as the state of affairs today. It used to have that setup you see |
Numen Anomalie
Bastards Of Anarchy System Inc. Drop the Hammer
10
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Posted - 2015.06.23 13:10:13 -
[359] - Quote
As a drone enthousiast, i am obviously not happy with this.
That said. I see WHY you guys THINk it needs a nerf, but what you guys are doing is not fair.
Listing all the PRO's and saying It's OP is not really how it works, now is it.
There are MANY downsides to using drones (not ishtars, drones, which is what you are nerfing here. NOT ishtars, drones):
1. Sentry drones and non static drones are different. 2. there are TONS of downsides: There is travel time. The ability to kite them. they can (rather easily) be shot down. One has to pick them up, or leave them behind. they can be smartbombed, stealth bombed, or simply killed fast with a (few) frigates. Totally ruining your dps.
There are more tactical disadvantages to using drones vs missiles or arty and guns, but those left besides, i think every weapon system should be able to dish out the same amount of dps in the end, when applied optimally to its optimal target.
The thing that i read a lot up here is: they (drones, people actually mean sentry's, that are already nerfed) deal a ton of DPS at 60km + range.
Yes, in order to do so, however, one needs to take at least 2 or 3 DDA's, slap the rest of the mids OR the lows with drone computers, use a sensor booster for higher ranges and sacrifice high slots that use up TONS of CPU for the range mods.
This leave a ship with BARELY a tank, LOW amount of utility mods and a sig radius of a station because of the shields, or they are slow with barely any medium utility mods in the mid slots.
It is simply a sniper boat that does dps at that point.
granted, it does that well, but there are tons of other ships that do the same, with having more tank, speed, or combat utility slots.
I think the DRONE nerf here is out of place, the ISHTAR nerf: well, just because everybody uses it, does not mean you truely understand WHY.
EASE OF USE is why i think ishtars are so popular. MOST people have their drone skills up high ANYWAY and thats why you see their game-wide damage out put to be so nice. (most people i know have 1 weapon system + drones on good skills). That means, the problem is in general popularity of drone boats, making the ishtar (cruisers are fast and high damage) the logical choice for many fleets. Plus assigning drones gets better alpha, agreed again. Not really that their damage is too high, it is just ease of use that is the problem again.
Nerfing these ships will not solve the problem. The result will be: people will keep using the ship untill you nerf it too much and then it gets COMPLETELY dropped.
Thats how eve works anyway. Some things are just more popular and sheep follow the sheppard. |
ivona fly
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
8
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Posted - 2015.06.23 13:15:36 -
[360] - Quote
Roy Henry wrote:Why not just remove sentry bonuses from the hull instead of nerfing sentries, drones, and ishtars themselves? How much collateral damage has been caused to all other drone and sentry ships trying to fix this issue when simply removing the overpowered bonuses from the ship would have removed the sentry Ishtar in the first place?
+1
So the bring the ishtar inline you have already nerfed the rattlesnake TWICE for exmaple and that ship is not in your list as being oppressive? (Nerfed sentries, Nerfed DDAs)
IMHO balacing a ship by nerfing it's weapon system is not good the same happened to condor it got indirectly ROFL stomped because the crow was considered OP, and now it does like 40dps and cant break passive tanked frigates. I heard the drake killed heavy missiles somehow too, but I dont think i was playing then to see the tears / details
Also If you are going to further nerf the "drone damage amplifier 1" can we get a meta module that does say 18% damage like a meta 4 heat sink/gyrostab/magstab.
I like that you doing something about the ishtar though and balancing must be hard but i think DDAs are balanced at the moment. |
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