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Sticky:[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Xe'Cara'eos A Big Enough Lever 294	Posted - 2015.06.24 14:43:06 - [451] - Quote I ask again - why not stagger sentry firing times, making them more of a DPS weapon than an alpha weapon? For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
gascanu Bearing Srl. 211	Posted - 2015.06.24 15:05:53 - [452] - Quote Xe'Cara'eos wrote: I ask again - why not stagger sentry firing times, making them more of a DPS weapon than an alpha weapon? cose of server hamsters; some years ago rof of all drones was 2" and CCP basically doubled the dmg but incresed the rof to 4" to be easyer on the hamsters ; tldr because of lag
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 16284	Posted - 2015.06.24 15:16:18 - [453] - Quote Hullender wrote: New nerfs are on sisi. There is no point to these feedback threads, there hasn't been for a while now. They have changed changes multiple times based upon feedback after testing was done on sisi. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
clipper shore Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 5	Posted - 2015.06.24 15:50:53 - [454] - Quote So more short sighted changes to ships that in the overall changes coming to the game will have little effect. when the pos is removed from the game and any need for large dps fleets are gone then any changes to the dps of battleships will not put them in a place where the new mets will need them they will become redundant like caps .supers and titians , eve online will become small cruiser gangs and the isthar offers the best and most flexiblr option there even with the changes. fozzie sov is bringing faction warefare metas to nul sec and the ishtar will still rule that meta along with t3 cruisers none of these changes will effect that . All these chanes are just pissing off the vetern players that are the glue and building blocks that krrp this game going . ccp atm are driving foreward with changes that will break the game or more correctly allow the players to break the game without listening to what we got to say. the ishtar is just a small example of that attitude.
Goochan derp Elewaitor 15	Posted - 2015.06.24 17:31:08 - [455] - Quote i really think the ishtar needs a smaller drone bay, its the same size as the geddon and much larger than an eos.... how can anyone possibly defend this?
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 22075	Posted - 2015.06.24 18:54:22 - [456] - Quote We want to adjust the Ishtar.. so instead of fixing the bonuses of the Ishtar, we will be adjusting the hull stats, carpetbombing the DDAs, and playing with the Tempest for some reason. *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
Ele Rebellion Dead Star Syndicate 49	Posted - 2015.06.24 19:48:53 - [457] - Quote DDA nerf? Haven't we already run the Thanatos into the ground enough? This, if my math is correct, will take over 100 dps away from my thanatos. I went on SiSi. Looks like its only about an 85dps drop for DDA2s.
Sergej Petrow Aperture Space 0	Posted - 2015.06.24 20:39:11 - [458] - Quote It need no more nerfs. Why don't you remove all Droneboots? No one more will crying, the drones are to heavy.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 679	Posted - 2015.06.24 22:47:02 - [459] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Hullender wrote: New nerfs are on sisi. There is no point to these feedback threads, there hasn't been for a while now. They have changed changes multiple times based upon feedback after testing was done on sisi. This. I want my AF AB bonus back....it got lost somewhere on a Sisi mirror long ago. That and when (not if) this balance does not solve the issue ccp has some thing to ponder really. I swear CCP has some prior military working for them, possible Marine Corps. They love their group punishment for 1 or 2 problem children. PFC X is a screw up and did something stupid, again. Lets make the whole company or squadron pay for it. Used to work in the old days, give pfc X a wall to wall counseling or blanket party, usually got his head and his ass wired right again. If this what CCP someone (or someones) is going off of...this has changed. These days even good ole sandbag party (have the tard fill up sandbags and stack em until you get bored watching them) will get you as the NCO charged for hazing. Saw this as I left the Marines as a Sergeant....apparently lots of tards want paperwork that follows them their whole career vice a couple hour sand bag session that when done leaves no paper trail. Nerfing DDA not the solution. Not when the problem ships have bonuses that offset them. I recall CCP's stance on domi and Ishtar when this started. They said they finally got drones as a primary weapon. Which it did kind of need. If this is the spirit of the keeping some things in place (problem child ship bonuses) they are making the exact opposite happen. They are killing drones for the rest of us. I am eyeing the demise of even sentry rattler. A drone boat ffs. All these tweaks....just not in my mind worth the aggravation of baby sitting them. Heavy rattler being eyed so I get a lot of mobility back. Hell if the tracking mods work well...the rattler could go almost pure missile. maybe a DDA for light/mediums to kill frigs faster.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 170	Posted - 2015.06.24 23:34:41 - [460] - Quote Both the Ishtar and the Navy Vexor are absurd, these changes are okay but you're still side stepping the real issue which everyone with sense has said over and over... you can't have battleship dps and range on a cruiser hull and call that balanced, it's not just battleship dps either it's one of the best weapon systems in the game for range/damage/ damage application/ewar immunity. If this is okay how about a Cerberus/Navy Caracal with fitting bonus for RHML?
Commander Spurty Dimension Door We need wards. 1470	Posted - 2015.06.25 03:55:56 - [461] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: Both the Ishtar and the Navy Vexor are absurd, these changes are okay but you're still side stepping the real issue which everyone with sense has said over and over... you can't have battleship dps and range on a cruiser hull and call that balanced, it's not just battleship dps either it's one of the best weapon systems in the game for range/damage/ damage application/ewar immunity. If this is okay how about a Cerberus/Navy Caracal with fitting bonus for RHML? I'll vote for this. But seriously, a weapon system which has NO CAP issues, NO AMMO issues, NEVER RELOADS AND does BS class weapon damage, without any downside? You can say "No to glass cannons" if you train Gal is the message. Needs 'balancing'. Every person grumbling, you are just bad for EVE. Let the DEVs do the right thing here. There are good ships And wood ships And ships that sail the sea But the best ships are Spaceships Built by CCP
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1150	Posted - 2015.06.25 04:10:52 - [462] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: Both the Ishtar and the Navy Vexor are absurd, these changes are okay but you're still side stepping the real issue which everyone with sense has said over and over... you can't have battleship dps and range on a cruiser hull and call that balanced, it's not just battleship dps either it's one of the best weapon systems in the game for range/damage/ damage application/ewar immunity. I can support this... Fourteen Maken wrote: If this is okay how about a Cerberus/Navy Caracal with fitting bonus for RHML? ... but not this. To quote an old Simpson's episode: Lisa: Two wrongs don't make a right, Bart. Bart: Yes they do. Lisa: No they don't. Bart: Yes they do. Lisa: No they don't! Bart: Yes they do! Lisa: Dad! Homer: Two wrongs make a right, Lisa. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 375	Posted - 2015.06.25 06:00:07 - [463] - Quote Commander Spurty wrote: But seriously, a weapon system which has NO CAP issues, NO AMMO issues, NEVER RELOADS AND does BS class weapon damage, without any downside? I'm for the change, but the cap independence and dps are the only parts of that that are true (with the dps in part being battleships sucking). And reloading a drone ship isn't exactly easy without stopping a fleet completely.
Sean Crees Sean's Solo Corp 8	Posted - 2015.06.25 06:51:34 - [464] - Quote So, let me make sure I've got this right. [Aegis] Tempest: 6 turrets * 1.25 (25% damage bonus) = 7.5 / .625 (37.5% RoF bonus) = 12 effective turrets. Machariel: 7 turrets * 1.25 (25% damage bonus) = 8.75 / .75 (25% RoF hull bonus) = 11.66 effective turrets. Is it intended that a Tier 1 battleship is to do more DPS than a pirate faction battleship with the same weapon system? Not to mention it will also now be better than the Tempest Fleet Issue, which is supposed to be the same ship but better.
James Baboli Novablasters 916	Posted - 2015.06.25 06:54:12 - [465] - Quote So, Jessica Slow pointed out that the tempest now would have more effective turrets than a machariel if we are doing the math right.... Can someone double check me on this bit of math: tempest 6 x 1.25 / .625 = 12 Fleet pest 6 x 1.25 / .75 = 10 Machariel 7 x 1.25 / .75 = 11.6666 Vargur 4 x 2 / .75 = 10.6666 Maelstrom 8 /.75 = 10.66666 So the tempest has 2 more effective turrets than the fleet pest and roughly 2/5 of one more than a machariel, with the ability to fit 2 launcher in addition to the 12 effective turrets.... Is this intentional, overlooked or a math error I and Jessica made? Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
James Baboli Novablasters 916	Posted - 2015.06.25 07:02:32 - [466] - Quote Sean Crees wrote: So, let me make sure I've got this right. [Aegis] Tempest: 6 turrets * 1.25 (25% damage bonus) = 7.5 / .625 (37.5% RoF bonus) = 12 effective turrets. Machariel: 7 turrets * 1.25 (25% damage bonus) = 8.75 / .75 (25% RoF hull bonus) = 11.66 effective turrets. Is it intended that a Tier 1 battleship is to do more DPS than a pirate faction battleship with the same weapon system? Not to mention it will also now be better than the Tempest Fleet Issue, which is supposed to be the same ship but better. I think we both were posting at the same time on this. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1150	Posted - 2015.06.25 07:35:05 - [467] - Quote Sean Crees wrote: Not to mention it will also now be better than the Tempest Fleet Issue, which is supposed to be the same ship but better. I do not necessarily disagree with your other points, but Navy Faction Battleships are not always just "the same ship but better." The Navy Dominix, which I find is a great ship, still retains the old-style Dominix gun bonuses. Not to mention that DPS is not the only important statistic separating the Machariel from the Tempest. There are many other ways in which the Machariel is superior. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2058	Posted - 2015.06.25 10:26:42 - [468] - Quote James Baboli wrote: So, Jessica Slow pointed out that the tempest now would have more effective turrets than a machariel if we are doing the math right.... Can someone double check me on this bit of math: tempest 6 x 1.25 / .625 = 12 Fleet pest 6 x 1.25 / .75 = 10 Machariel 7 x 1.25 / .75 = 11.6666 Vargur 4 x 2 / .75 = 10.6666 Maelstrom 8 /.75 = 10.66666 So the tempest has 2 more effective turrets than the fleet pest and roughly 2/5 of one more than a machariel, with the ability to fit 2 launcher in addition to the 12 effective turrets.... Is this intentional, overlooked or a math error I and Jessica made? Rise said there will be a pass on all the battleships soon. Probably they have other things planned for these ships. And it is NOT as if these ships were not massively superiro to tempest in other regards. For example EHP of fleet tempest is in a completely different level. The machariel has a falloff bonus that makes it effectively have MUCH higher DPS than the new tempest. BOTH have MORE low slots, and taht means MORE damage mods that neutralize the turret count. Stop spreadsheet PVP, the capability of shps are not made by a single value. The tempest was worthless and this treatment was needed for a LONG time. They probably have pland to make the fleet temepst have a different role, the same wayt hat the navy geddon and navy domi have different focus than their t1 grampas. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Ellendras Silver CrashCat Corporation 172	Posted - 2015.06.25 12:07:47 - [469] - Quote ok i have to post this... CCP is nerfing all droneboats to oblivion because of one broken hull. not too long ago you guys rebalanced the drones and now you are nerfing it just because one hull is severly broken, the Ishtar what is your solution. nerf DDA`s and nerf 3 out of the 4 sentry drones (the fourth is hardly ever used) damaging ALL other drone ships from medium to hard. please dont implement the DDA and sentry changes and JUST fix the Ishtar make it a deadly ships with heavy drones but NOT sentries and the problem is SOLVED your welcome CCP [u]Carpe noctem[/u]
TinkerHell Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory. 159	Posted - 2015.06.25 12:41:49 - [470] - Quote Dez Affinity wrote: You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. This. You just nerfed the dps of a curse to nerf the ishtar. Did the Curse really need its dps nerfed? Focus your nerfs on the ship and not a weapon system that is used by many balanced ships. You cant say that Heavy/Med/Light drones are overpowered....yet...you nerf their damage... Logic. Use it.
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2059	Posted - 2015.06.25 12:56:22 - [471] - Quote Ellendras Silver wrote: ok i have to post this... CCP is nerfing all droneboats to oblivion because of one broken hull. not too long ago you guys rebalanced the drones and now you are nerfing it just because one hull is severly broken, the Ishtar what is your solution. nerf DDA`s and nerf 3 out of the 4 sentry drones (the fourth is hardly ever used) damaging ALL other drone ships from medium to hard. please dont implement the DDA and sentry changes and JUST fix the Ishtar make it a deadly ships with heavy drones but NOT sentries and the problem is SOLVED your welcome CCP It is not only the ishtar. The drone boats are plain superior to other hulls on same class. Just compare the capabilities of the dominix and geddon against other battleships. The capability of fielding a lot of DPS with a great range and better tracking than large long range guns, while leavign the high slots free for neuts etc means they are a bit OP. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
TinkerHell Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory. 159	Posted - 2015.06.25 13:25:52 - [472] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: Ellendras Silver wrote: ok i have to post this... CCP is nerfing all droneboats to oblivion because of one broken hull. not too long ago you guys rebalanced the drones and now you are nerfing it just because one hull is severly broken, the Ishtar what is your solution. nerf DDA`s and nerf 3 out of the 4 sentry drones (the fourth is hardly ever used) damaging ALL other drone ships from medium to hard. please dont implement the DDA and sentry changes and JUST fix the Ishtar make it a deadly ships with heavy drones but NOT sentries and the problem is SOLVED your welcome CCP It is not only the ishtar. The drone boats are plain superior to other hulls on same class. Just compare the capabilities of the dominix and geddon against other battleships. The capability of fielding a lot of DPS with a great range and better tracking than large long range guns, while leavign the high slots free for neuts etc means they are a bit OP. So lets nerf the Tristan, Vexer, Myrm, Curse, Arbitrator, Pilgrim, Sentinel etc because a few ships use Sentry drones. Normal combat drones are stupidly easy to counter with smartbombs, especially in fleet warfare. A Geddon isnt 'superior' because of its drone bay. If you have drones that are OP on certain ships because they are complimented by the fact the Devs decided to give them DUMB tracking bonuses on the hulls in the first place surely you should address the bonuses of the ships. If needed nerf the weapon system, which is SENTRY drones and not DRONES. How would you feel if to nerf Beams they decided to nerf Pulses at the same time?
Mario Putzo 1437	Posted - 2015.06.25 13:34:46 - [473] - Quote <<< still doesn't understand why DDA's have to change when the issue is, and always has been Sentry Drones. The problem is a Cruiser sized ship fielding what amounts to Battleship sized weaponry...let us slap on some RHMLs on Cerbs and then tell us its not the weapon systems, but the Hull.
Schluffi Schluffelsen State War Academy Caldari State 46	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:09:11 - [474] - Quote There are so many interesting and well worked out proposals how to bring the ishtar + sentries in line with the other ships, this won't help imo - after hundreds of pages of feedback concerning the isthar I feel a bit disappointed.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1941	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:09:36 - [475] - Quote Why do some droneboat still have bonus to both projection (optimal) and application (tracking) on the same bonus slot? I can understand this happening for mobile drones when they get both speed and tracking since the speed would completely ruin their tracking potential but for an immobile sentry, it's not the case.
Mario Putzo 1437	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:24:27 - [476] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Why do some droneboat still have bonus to both projection (optimal) and application (tracking) on the same bonus slot? I can understand this happening for mobile drones when they get both speed and tracking since the speed would completely ruin their tracking potential but for an immobile sentry, it's not the case. Probably for the same reason Heavy Missiles got dumpstered with the Drake changes. CCP Rise and Fozzie aren't focused on balance, they are focused on shifting metas, where in one type of ship or weapons system is dominant and as such they push players into using said ship or weapon type. Heavy Missiles when they were nerfed sucked, their saving grace was sitting on the Drake whose other stats carried their shittiness. Also in before Heavy Missile chucking ships become flavor of the month...hopefully it doesn't turn out to be flavor of the next three years like Drones Online has been.
Ellendras Silver CrashCat Corporation 173	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:37:49 - [477] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: Ellendras Silver wrote: ok i have to post this... CCP is nerfing all droneboats to oblivion because of one broken hull. not too long ago you guys rebalanced the drones and now you are nerfing it just because one hull is severly broken, the Ishtar what is your solution. nerf DDA`s and nerf 3 out of the 4 sentry drones (the fourth is hardly ever used) damaging ALL other drone ships from medium to hard. please dont implement the DDA and sentry changes and JUST fix the Ishtar make it a deadly ships with heavy drones but NOT sentries and the problem is SOLVED your welcome CCP It is not only the ishtar. The drone boats are plain superior to other hulls on same class. Just compare the capabilities of the dominix and geddon against other battleships. The capability of fielding a lot of DPS with a great range and better tracking than large long range guns, while leavign the high slots free for neuts etc means they are a bit OP. give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way [u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Mario Putzo 1438	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:45:18 - [478] - Quote Ellendras Silver wrote: give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png) (and im sure if you ignored Catalyst/Brutix ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers/BCs as well)
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1455	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:46:41 - [479] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: Ellendras Silver wrote: give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png) (and im sure if you ignored Catalyst ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers as well) Vexors are popular gankboats too. What would be more interesting is removing structure bashes from these numbers. They skew it hardcore to lasers and drones for obvious reasons.
Mario Putzo 1438	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:51:32 - [480] - Quote afkalt wrote: Mario Putzo wrote: Ellendras Silver wrote: give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png) (and im sure if you ignored Catalyst ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers as well) Vexors are popular gankboats too. What would be more interesting is removing structure bashes from these numbers. They skew it hardcore to lasers and drones for obvious reasons. Why would you ignore structure bashing, if people are using drones over other weapons for that in such numbers that it heavily skews total damage, then that is only another example of why drones are heads and shoulders above the competition.

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