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Khan Wrenth
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
172
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Posted - 2015.06.23 13:21:01 -
[361] - Quote
I want to say something positive, because I certainly have not always been pleasant on this topic. These changes seem very reasonable, and I'm happy to see CCP addressing this.
I would have done things slightly differently, however.
I would have nerfed the DDA's some more, but also balanced it with enhanced drone damage bonuses to select hulls that need it. People here have made a good case for the Armageddon and a few other hulls that really didn't deserve such a harsh nerf.
Really though, I must reiterate my stance that sentry drones need to be removed from the game entirely, or rebalanced as a whole. The reason being that sentry drones enjoy almost every single advantage from every other weapon system in the game. The whole thing with advantages and disadvantages to every platform? Doesn't apply to sentries. The only downside they really have is that you can destroy them - a trait common to all drones. However, it is a meaningless assertion since if you could apply meaningful damage at that range there wouldn't be an imbalance issue in the first place. Pilots would already be knocking sentries out of the sky left and right if they could apply meaningful damage at that range. Do people destroy sentries? Yes, but feels like it is an exception rather than the rule. The only downside to a weapon platform shouldn't be a niche scenario.
I think that after this balance pass, you've already done a great thing to balance drone platforms. I would add two things. 1: Make sentries paper thin. One or two shots from a medium railgun should destroy them. Give them 500 structure HP, so no resistances, and leave it at just that. Then the whole "destroyable weapon platform" thing becomes a real problem instead of a theoretical one (regular drones are already quite destroyable since they have to move to within attacking distance of their targets). Second, make sentry drones use capacitor from the trigger ship to fire. My initial idea would be 12 cap per sentry per shot. Since they refire every four seconds, that averages out to 3 unit per second per sentry, or 15 units of cap to keep a set of sentries firing.
That makes firing sentries take more cap than medium rails, slightly less than medium beams (called heavy beams for some reason, but that's not my style, I'mma call them medium beams 'cause I'm a rebel) fitted on a Zealot, but the tradeoff is that you still get a vastly superior weapon system. Sentries still hit out farther than either weapon system and do more damage than either weapon system, are still EWAR immune, and you still have room for plenty of replacements if they get destroyed.
OR
Double sentry drone size and bandwidth to 50, and give select hulls like the Armageddon and Rattlesnake a role bonus that cuts it in half. BOOM! Much easier way to balance sentries.
(Also this may sound odd considering what I just said, but I really don't think that there should be as large a disparity in sentry optimal ranges. Maybe flatten it out a bit so all drones start between 40-60k?)
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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ivona fly
Black Fox Marauders
Spaceship Bebop
8
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Posted - 2015.06.23 13:39:37 -
[362] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:The problem is not just the Ishtar. The claim that CCP are breaking other drone boats with these changes is a bit odd. How do you break that which is already broken? http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png
The solution I have in mind is a bit radical. Remove drone bonuses from hulls and delete drone buffing modules. Rebalance current drone bonused hulls to compensate. Drones change from a primary weapon system to supplementary assistance providing additional DPS or EWAR.
I think another guy made the point earlier but something that gets lost in the numbers and stats is that of ease of use...
pretty much every pilot can use drones because 2 out of four races use them as primary dps on some of their hulls, and nearly ever hull in the game bigger than a frigate has a drone bay, end result nearly every pilot can use drone ships well.
That has to skew the stats? if nearly everyone in your corp can use drone ships they are an easy doctrine to use.
I often hear people say i can't use t2 medium lasers any other hardpoint based weapon, but never hear them say can't use warriors etc if anything they may not be able to use t2 sentries or Heavies...
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Faltzs
Thundercats
The Initiative.
18
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Posted - 2015.06.23 13:41:59 -
[363] - Quote
DDA change is ok imo, tempest one is kind of pointless its not damage that holds the pest back.
Ss for the ishtar as i say in every time in one of these threads I would give it the following roles:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage
20% to range of Heavy Drones and Heavy Armor Maintence bots
50% to Repair amount and HP of Armor Maintence bots
Im sure the smart people will work out all teh fun things you could do with this while not being OP. |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1439
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 13:45:50 -
[364] - Quote
Just for lulz. Give ishtars a stupid bonus to drone shield recharge rate such that they're hilariously hard to kill and need to be alpha'd and not worn down by smarties. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
752
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 13:55:35 -
[365] - Quote
UCara wrote:Oh My Lord!!!
Stop being stupid ccp, ishtars are not being used that much already, just nerf sentry bonus from it, stop screwing with the ship, why don't you rebalance the other HACs instead, GIVE instead of TAKING...
Game stability is soo good you put so much effort in nerfing stuff...
http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-odyssey-1.1
Quote:ISHTAR:
Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage).
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage.
Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level.
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity).
Rebalance - rebalance happened. Best balanace in decadesGäó.
Only the point that one, that's one uno, 1, one, just one, simply one, HAC was able to push over 650 DPS out to Battleship ranges for two years straight isn't mentioned.
Best balance - best gaem
ivona fly wrote:McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:The problem is not just the Ishtar. The claim that CCP are breaking other drone boats with these changes is a bit odd. How do you break that which is already broken? http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png
The solution I have in mind is a bit radical. Remove drone bonuses from hulls and delete drone buffing modules. Rebalance current drone bonused hulls to compensate. Drones change from a primary weapon system to supplementary assistance providing additional DPS or EWAR. I think another guy made the point earlier but something that gets lost in the numbers and stats is that of ease of use... pretty much every pilot can use drones because 2 out of four races use them as primary dps on some of their hulls, and nearly ever hull in the game bigger than a frigate has a drone bay, end result nearly every pilot can use drone ships well. That has to skew the stats? if nearly everyone in your corp can use drone ships they are an easy doctrine to use. I often hear people say i can't use t2 medium lasers any other hardpoint based weapon, but never hear them say can't use warriors etc if anything they may not be able to use t2 sentries or Heavies...
That is a rather obvious and widely acknowledged point. Homework for you: How many drones can the Zealot field, and how much of the total damage potential of non-drone cruiser & battlecruiser platforms is taken up by drones.
Battleships - it is a given with their high bandwidth and drone bays.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
752
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 14:04:47 -
[366] - Quote
Doablepoast
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Lidia Caderu
Harbingers of Chaos Inc
Gentlemen's.Club
42
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Posted - 2015.06.23 14:11:53 -
[367] - Quote
Just rered changes in Odyssey, still do not understand ******** shield boost bonus for Vagabond. lol |
Ghaustyl Kathix
Quantum Singularities
Half Massed
57
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 14:11:58 -
[368] - Quote
I don't think this'll solve the Ishtar problem as CCP sees it. It'll make them tougher to shield-tank, but they'll still kite around and drop more sentries.
If you want to solve the problem, switch the bonuses from the Eos and the Ishtar to make the Eos the sentry-bonused boat. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
753
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 14:28:55 -
[369] - Quote
Lidia Caderu wrote:Just rered changes in Odyssey, still do not understand ******** shield boost bonus for Vagabond. lol
VARIETY!
Kill variety in one aspect, introduce it in another, albeit dis-proportionally.
Them admitting that double drone bonuses were a blunder would be the best thing ever on this whole Ishtar debacle. Gÿ£a++a¦ê+ä-£a¦êGÿ£a++
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Tara Read
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
860
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 14:30:00 -
[370] - Quote
Augustus Risalo wrote:Tara Read wrote:not being able to warp to someone You can still warp to fleet members...?
In CCP's brilliance to make the game difficult (aka more bothersome and annoying) they'll probably do away with warping all together. Instead we'll have to buy a third party extention that plugs in via USB cable where we peddle our ships closer to our enemies like some Flintstone abomination for sake of immersion.
Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at http://hoistthecolors.org
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Taru Audeles
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 14:31:14 -
[371] - Quote
You guys make more friends everyday.
Icons, Fleet Warps, Trasher and now this?
When do you stop calling EVE a Sandbox and call it your own personal playground for how to **** of the community and drive your paying customer away. Look at the logged in numbers you might notice something there. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
753
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 14:35:01 -
[372] - Quote
I guess you haven't been playing EVE long then.
People were threatening to burn down the office when damage mod stacking penalty was introduced, breaking the 8-Heatsink Armageddon in 2005 during RMR IIRC.
Don't try to lump the broken drones & Ishtar with the rest.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia
Soviet-Union
31
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Posted - 2015.06.23 14:47:57 -
[373] - Quote
Regardless of the Ishtar or an specific ship. I think reducing the DDA is NOT the correct way to fix the problem.
I don't hear about how all those Arbitrator fleets were really terror. I mean come on... Prophecies were never considered "OP" and pretty much any Amarr droneboat isn't considered to have too much DPS. Attacking drones and DDA doesn't fix the issue. The problem is not with drones or its mods. The problem is with specific platforms. You need to address each ship individually instead of trying to do it with a wide brush stroke.
This is the 3rd hit to drone users in a row from CCP nerf hammer, enough is enough. Get it right CCP. |
Arkanon Nerevar
UK Corp
RAZOR Alliance
29
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Posted - 2015.06.23 14:52:10 -
[374] - Quote
IMO the DDA nerf should be dropped, a nerf for the ishtar shouldnt affect everything else, remember what happened with the nerf to HMLs due to the prevalence of HML tengus, HMLs became a joke weapon system, you should fine tune individual ships, not just penalise everything.
Trust Not in God, but Have Faith in Antimatter
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1439
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 14:53:30 -
[375] - Quote
But mine is the only chart which actually breaks weapon type vs hull down remotely precisely.
The assumptions in your chart are not safe. It assumes that each stack colour means the same thing per ship class. Which makes sense for readability but not a lot of sense when one looks deeper. Take carriers vs battleships vs dictors, for example. What the hell is that yellow they all share? |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
753
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 15:12:40 -
[376] - Quote
The carriers are actually Orange - fighters most likely.
The Yellow is projectiles.
Try again.
That Light blue blob covering 70% of total HAC damage done belongs to Battleships by birthright - See Odyssey 1.1.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Zack1023
Applied Anarchy
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 15:18:42 -
[377] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Alexander McKeon wrote:Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.
For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.
Limiting drones to a certain ship is not a fix and will create more problems than necessary. The ishtar might still be viable and a shield boat. Idk If you fly them smart enough maybe. While this does hurt it it's not enough. @ccp rise my question to you is that sentries are a BS size weapon. So why does the Ishtar have a drone bay that rivals all but 2 battleships? Only the dominix and Armageddon can match. The ability for the Ishtar to have 3 full sets of sentries is the root of the problem in my opinion. Not the fact is has damage and tracking bonuses. Cutting the drone bay in half or some other smaller percent will increase the risk when using ishtars in large fleet engagements, but will keep them as ratting and small gang pvp viable. |
Skyler Hawk
Boars on Parade
The Tuskers Co.
38
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 15:19:56 -
[378] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:Augustus Risalo wrote:Tara Read wrote:not being able to warp to someone You can still warp to fleet members...? In CCP's brilliance to make the game difficult (aka more bothersome and annoying) they'll probably do away with warping all together. Instead we'll have to buy a third party extention that plugs in via USB cable where we peddle our ships closer to our enemies like some Flintstone abomination for sake of immersion.
forcing eve nerds to get some exercise while flying their spaceships sounds like an excellent idea tbh |
Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet
Northern Coalition.
1560
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 15:28:15 -
[379] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:CCP Fozzie - 5:47PM : PVP damage per month leader per class: T1 Frigate - Tristan, Pirate Frigate - Worm, T1 Cruiser - Vexor, Navy Cruiser - VNI, Pirate Cruiser - Gila, T2 Cruiser - Ishtar, T1 Battleship - Dominix http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png
I like how a bunch of classes are left out on that.
There are drone boats in the T3 Cruiser, T1 BC, Command Ship, and Pirate BS classes. Some of them can even field...sentries. Evidently it's not beyond the wit of man to make a drone hull that's not completely OP. Maybe because you don't see Myrms and Rattlesnakes kiting around like butterflies, or drone Prots tracking ceptors...
Also not like there's much competition in the classes that are mentioned. Navy cruisers, T1 BS... |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
753
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 15:31:44 -
[380] - Quote
That's because drone bandwidth of the classes unmentioned is in line with the fact of DDAs & base drone stats.
// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)]
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[Cruisers Online]
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Tara Read
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
862
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Posted - 2015.06.23 15:39:40 -
[381] - Quote
Skyler Hawk wrote:Tara Read wrote:Augustus Risalo wrote:Tara Read wrote:not being able to warp to someone You can still warp to fleet members...? In CCP's brilliance to make the game difficult (aka more bothersome and annoying) they'll probably do away with warping all together. Instead we'll have to buy a third party extention that plugs in via USB cable where we peddle our ships closer to our enemies like some Flintstone abomination for sake of immersion. forcing eve nerds to get some exercise while flying their spaceships sounds like an excellent idea tbh
Can you imagine a bunch of PL neckbeards huffing and puffing trying to move their precious Aeons from gate to gate? Why next you'll be suggesting for them to shower, go outside and socialize outside of Fail Heap, and dare try to tackle the most elusive prey of all for them: a female with a pulse.
Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at http://hoistthecolors.org
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Oddsodz
The Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare.
A Band Apart.
155
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Posted - 2015.06.23 15:42:07 -
[382] - Quote
Am I the only one that sees this a a possible BUFF to the Ishtar? You take one slot away from the mid and but it in the low? Oh great.
Now let me type out this long post about why this is a buff.
The main issue as I see it (and I am sure some here will not agree with me) is that in the null sec blob wars. The main thing is that the Ishtar is just too dam hard to kill due to kite tactics. Biggest culprit is the fact that it can sig tank so well. Now take away that dam off grid booster and then see how good the Ishtar is. Right now. If you try to kill an Ishtar it just giggles at you as all your damage just does not hit the thing in the 1st place. So by taken away a mid slot that would in most cases have a resist or shield extender in it is not going to do that much as most damage that is thrown at an Ishtar misses anyway (even more so if you don't have that extra shield extender blooming up your sig now). So now we have an extra low slot. Lets just put a extra DDA or drone tracking enhancer in that low. Now the drones hit even harder or track even more than before. This in turn makes the nerf to the DDA at the start a full on waste of time as it hurts all the rest of the drone ship lineups but not the intended target that is the Ishtar.
Sentry drones are not the issue. Off Gird Boosting is the issue. Take the dam off grid boosts away and then you will be able to hit and kill an Ishtar. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
753
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 15:46:14 -
[383] - Quote
Oddsodz is right in part.
The fact that Ishtar still won't be competing with other HACs due to the weapons system will be ignored for as long as possible by CCP.
// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)]
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[Cruisers Online]
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Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet
Northern Coalition.
1560
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 15:49:13 -
[384] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:That's because drone bandwidth of the classes unmentioned is in line with the fact of DDAs & base drone stats.
Rattlesnake should be "third", or first, regardless, and Napos or TFIs in the lead for Faction Battleships.
Sure. Not that anyone can tell that from that useless, incomplete "data". |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
753
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 15:50:37 -
[385] - Quote
What's your point exactly?
Data is irrelevant if it doesn't meet your viewpoint apparently. Someone escort the Facts out of the Courtroom, please.
// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)]
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[Cruisers Online]
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Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet
Northern Coalition.
1560
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 15:52:42 -
[386] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:What's your point exactly?
Data is irrelevant if it doesn't meet your viewpoint apparently. Someone escort the Facts out of the Courtroom, please.
Well if you're releasing something about "PVP damage per month leader per class" then yea, you need to use all the classes.
This is not a "viewpoint", this is Statistics 101.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
753
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 15:57:12 -
[387] - Quote
You ignored the fact that all of the other classes are balanced with Drone Bandwidth.
The VEXOR, VNI, ISHTAR - Or the VEXOR line isn't.
No one could see 1k DPS Tech 1 Cruisers being broken. No one.
No one could see 850 DPS, 110k EHP, 2.2 km/s Tech 1 Pirate cruisers being Top 1. No one.
Point taken?
The fact that Domi & Armageddon are both in the lead tells you everything you need to know about DDAs. There's only two ways out of this shebang: Fix DDA or Fix the Legacy 50% hull Hitpoint/Damage bonuses, because the base drone attributes are out of whack.
// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)]
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[Cruisers Online]
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Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet
Northern Coalition.
1560
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 16:00:48 -
[388] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:You ignored the fact that all of the other classes are balanced with Drone Bandwidth.
The VEXOR, VNI, ISHTAR - Or the VEXOR line isn't.
No one could see 1k DPS Tech 1 Cruisers being broken. No one.
No one could see 850 DPS, 110k EHP, 2.2 km/s Tech 1 Pirate cruisers being Top 1. No one.
Point taken?
The fact that Domi & Armageddon are both in the lead tells you everything you need to know about DDAs.
I'm not ignoring it. In fact, that's exactly the sort of conclusion you come to when all data is considered.
When it isn't you get things like "OMG DELETE SENTRIES".
I mean, I'm largely agreeing with you, so like, maybe wind ya neck in and get some sun, or something... |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
753
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 16:03:54 -
[389] - Quote
You never know who's who nowadays, Always dron mafia lurking around.
Pirate battleships weren't included because most likely Rattlesnake is No 1 and Commandships along with T3 and Recon have less bandwidth than that bloated Vexor cruiser family.
Thanks to people in the North for making a Dread Come True for every pilot. GÖÑ
Special thanks also goes out to our Minmatar Bretheren for 330 mi TFIs, but that is off topic.
// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)]
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[Cruisers Online]
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Leoric Firesword
Rolling Static
Gone Critical
134
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 16:23:41 -
[390] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Alexander McKeon wrote:Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.
For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.
So wait, let me get this right, you don't see the issue with BS weapons on a cruiser hull? Let's break out Tach's for the Maller then!
I agree with the DDA nerf.
I don't agree with sentries on Vexors/VNI/Myrm/Eos/Ishtar/Stratios/etc
Read that again, I don't agree with SENTRIES on those hulls, and I fly those hulls quite a bit (minus the eos/ishtar...noob and all)
I'm not saying we lock them into using drones for their size, but there should be a drawback for going bigger. Currently for sentries there isn't one.
Heavy drones are slower and track more poorly than mediums, and mediums are the same when compared to small. The fact that sentries don't move isn't an issue, cause well, lets be honest if you and 30 of your friends are all in Ishtars or whatever you're going to be in optimal and have low traversal against at least one group of those drones, where if they were flying heavies the drones would (most likely) have an issue catching/tracking you (omg balance!).
Also, I'd like to point out there's a reason that drones are the only weapon system that you've limited to T1 in the Alliance Tournament...just sayin. |
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