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Sticky:[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Nergal Hurrian Orange Lazarus Petroleum Inc. Surely You're Joking 4	Posted - 2015.06.25 23:34:14 - [511] - Quote Ishtar sentry bonuses ARE the problem, not the DDAs. Loss of a mid slot also makes it nigh impossible to have a workable shield fit Ishtar for PvP. Rise, this is one of the most senseless and uninnovative changes to game proposed that I've ever seen. Hundreds of people are pointing out the problem, yet you manage to miss the point. Does CCP HR have a general comprehension test that a candidate is expected to fail before they get considered as hires?
Gyges Skyeye Delusions of Adequacy Get Off My Lawn 28	Posted - 2015.06.26 02:00:44 - [512] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alexander McKeon wrote: Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations. For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. Ok, if we aren't going to address the fact that the of all the HAC's in the game, the Ishtar gets access to battleship class weapons with all the HAC defensive bonuses intact, can we at least de facto balance or item lock the ishtar around this capability so we can carve away at some of the toxic gameplay elements it is creating? I can understand that you want drones to be their own snowflake of a weapon system, not limited by ship class. Fine. Lets call a pig a pig. No one uses the high slots of the ishtar for weapons systems in a meaningful capacity. Supporting the ability of people to fit the ishtar in this way is leaving superfluous fitting power that is inflating the power level of the ishtar's other use cases. Take the hardpoints of the Ishtar behind the barn and shoot them. Do the same with the fitting power allocated for weapons over utility high's. Next lets kill two birds with one stone. We can add back in the ability of Ishtars to participate in high slot style F1 warfare by giving it a role (or gallente cruiser) bonus to Sentry Drone velocity allowing and forcing sentry drones to move with the Ishtar. Cut power from sentry damage, tracking, range, and hp bonuses as necessary. This would serve to give the ishtar ship hull access to a turret style of warfare while eliminating the edge case of Ishtars dropping sentry drones, scooting off in a distant direction applying damage all the while with everyone else unable to do a f-cking thing about it. This would still leave the Ishtar as an immensely flexible ship. It would have in space selectable turret-analog and damage type capabilities similar to arty ships while still being able to participate in regular (heavy and down) drone warfare. It would at the same time eliminate the pants-on-head ******** damage projection situations the stationary sentry Ishtar is capable of producing.
Portmanteau Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2015.06.26 02:24:41 - [513] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: As a year and a half old player who spent a significant portion of that time training drones, Gallente cruisers and associated skills... CCP please stop. I understand that the sentry Ishtar blobs were a problem, but please stop hurting my drone boats. Removing a mid slot will kill the shield kite Ishtar which is a great option for solo and small gang PvP. If you must continue this droneboat genocide please be so kind as to inform me of which race/ship class you plan to bestow your favor upon next, so that I can arrange my skill queue accordingly. Shall I start playing TenguQuest, or is that getting nerfed too? ur drone boats are very strong. U will adapt or u will quit. Both options are ok.
Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4460	Posted - 2015.06.26 02:35:07 - [514] - Quote Nergal Hurrian wrote: Rise, this is one of the most senseless and uninnovative changes to game proposed that I've ever seen. 5th time's the charm for the Ishtar, right? shananigans wrote: Why is my carrier being hurt with this!? Capital drone boats need a hug. Because carriers haven't been nerfed enough...? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
The Sinister Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 99	Posted - 2015.06.26 06:30:53 - [515] - Quote To CCP Rise: This is my girl friends response on the ishtar subject and I quote: " Is this guy dumb or something? Why not just take the what ever u call it bonus to sentry drones away from the damn thing and get it over with, I think he dosnt get laid very often! Men stop thinking straight when that happens!" And of course I LOL! And she DOSNT play the game...
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1459	Posted - 2015.06.26 06:37:11 - [516] - Quote Rise, maybe next time split the ship nerf thread away from the module nerf one, apparently people don't understand they're separate.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 296	Posted - 2015.06.26 06:41:18 - [517] - Quote Hey Rise, if 125mb bandwidth is not a problem on Ishtar can we have +25mb on Stratios? "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 376	Posted - 2015.06.26 06:59:25 - [518] - Quote afkalt wrote: Rise, maybe next time split the ship nerf thread away from the module nerf one, apparently people don't understand they're separate. Then it's a conspiracy. I do think the easiest way to explain it is it is a more powerful nerf the more drone amps a ship fits. Tristans and algoses fit maybe one drone amp and so they get a 4% bonus dps loss. Most medium ships including armor ishtars fit one or two and they lose 7.5 bonus drone dps. Shield ishtars, gilas and rattlesnakes are losing the most (assuming CCP aren't as stupid as I think they are they meant that): three amp fits lose 10% and the few four amp fits lose 11.5%. Keep in mind that's not dps lost, that's bonus dps lost. Actual dps change is small but significant.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1459	Posted - 2015.06.26 07:08:34 - [519] - Quote It'll slow down my L4 domi alts a little, but really...for a 3 month train I'm not sure they should be bossing the L4s like they are
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2015.06.26 08:07:59 - [520] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: Hey Rise, if 125mb bandwidth is not a problem on Ishtar can we have +25mb on Stratios? Sure. Can i have the pwgen and the cpu of the stratios for my ishtar? Ah and the speed too please.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 754	Posted - 2015.06.26 08:38:46 - [521] - Quote Ellendras Silver wrote: afkalt wrote: Mario Putzo wrote: Ellendras Silver wrote: give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png) (and im sure if you ignored Catalyst ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers as well) Vexors are popular gankboats too. What would be more interesting is removing structure bashes from these numbers. They skew it hardcore to lasers and drones for obvious reasons. they are but not because they are OP but because they are fast to get into Must be female logic. Other cruisers take longer to get into? Phuuhlease. Dron gonna dron Mario Putzo wrote: Which is why I don't understand nerfing DDA's to fix a symptom that is result of Sentries themselves. It it all of the drones, with DDAs being the cause - drone attributes were not adjusted on their introduction to my knowledge, while DDAs received the same bonus as the other damage mod types. // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] // [Cruisers Online]
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 296	Posted - 2015.06.26 08:43:41 - [522] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: Sure. Can i have the pwgen and the cpu of the stratios for my ishtar? Ah and the speed too please. Do I have to mark my post as irony or did you not get it such as Rise? Because Rise still not get it what is wrong with Ishtar. It will end same way as drake and HMLs I presume. "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2015.06.26 08:44:17 - [523] - Quote afkalt wrote: Honestly, I'd let the slot change pan out a bit before nerfing DDA. I really think the slot change might be enough. Are you a ghost?
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 754	Posted - 2015.06.26 08:47:12 - [524] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: This is not true. Right now, Ishtar's are among the best sniping cruisers for the applied damage done. With the proposed AEGIS changes they will do the following using 3x DDA IIs, 2 OTE II, 2 DLA II: Curator: ~480 DPS @ 78km/17km Bouncer: ~450 DPS @ 67km/76km Warden: ~435 DPS @ 112km/59km Definitely a top sniping cruiser. With new missile mods the Cerberus will be equally high on the list with a 20% DPS loss for choosing selection type so for EM over Kinetic you get 400 DPS instead of 500 DPS which is good DPS and pretty big range increase over the curator . An Eagle using 250mm railsguns with 3 Mag Stab II and 2 TC II with Optimal script does: CN Plutonium: ~390 @ 66km/25km CN Uranium: ~374 DPS @ 79km/25km CN Lead: ~299 DPS @ 105/25k Spike: ~260 DPS @ 190km/25km The Sacrilege does not have the range of Cerberus but with the new modules it should be able to snipe just fine. Using 3x BCS II + 1x missile velocity rig and 1x flight time rig (new missile modules will open greater range and application options). (Any damage type) HAM CN: 494 @ 44km HM Fury: 417 DPS @ 102km HM CN: 355 DPS @ 136k A Zealot with Heavy Beam Laser II 3x HS II, 1x TC II optimal script, 1x TE Ultraviolet: 470 DPS @ 49km/15km Standard: 417 DPS @ 56km/15km Aurora: 363 DPS @ 101km/15km And let's throw in an Arty HAC too for good measure. Vagabond using 650mm II, 3x Gyro II, 1x TC II optimal script, 1x TE II. RF EMP: 403DPS @ 15km/50k RF Nuclear: 168 DPS @ 48km/50km Tremor: 234 DPS @ 54km/50km Muninn with same setup: RF EMP: 403DPS @ 23k/33km RF Nuclear: 168 DPS @ 72km/33km Tremor: 234 DPS @ 82km/33km REKT. And just look at that sentry falloff - it is definitely not a cruiser weapons system. Ishtar will still compete with Battleships, not HACs. // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] // [Cruisers Online]
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2015.06.26 08:51:15 - [525] - Quote Altrue wrote: CCP Rise wrote: This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. I don't think people are asking for Ishtars to be unable to use sentries. Most people are asking for the removal of sentries bonuses on them. You know, the +25% damage, AND the +25% hitpoints, AND the +25% tracking, AND the +25% optimal. They would still be able to use sentries, but their stats would be more in-line with their actual balanced state. Nope that's not it. They should keep 10% to drone damage and hit points as they did before and just introduce medium sentry drones.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2015.06.26 08:57:29 - [526] - Quote Gremk wrote: At first I was slightly against the DDA change but I think this is actually going to be a good change. I think you should consider giving the Ishtar a slight bonus to hybrids in some way to really turn it into a heavy brawler and just be done with sentries on the Ishtar. I think there should be some consideration as to how the DDA will indirectly impact supers though... I think it'll be a good change for all other drone boats though. The only thing I find frustrating about drone boats is how easy it is to wipe their DPS when using heavies/medium/lights. Lowering the DPS is understandable but don't forget the HUGE drawbacks of having a DPS platform that is 100% destructible. Worst idea I read so far. -1
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2015.06.26 09:00:39 - [527] - Quote Harvey James wrote: some good changes, but i still think droneboats have a big slot advantage over ships needing turrets/hardpoints, so please consider reducing slots on all droneboats to -3 slots, guristas should also follow the - slots which they do not atm for some reason... Oops , and we have a new leader as the worst posting in this thread. -2
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2015.06.26 09:18:01 - [528] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: how about 10% damage per level and a falloff or tracking bonus for the tempest instead. rupture could do with the same kind of treatment btw (or you could fix projectiles lol). Yep something like this. Oh and you forgot the Hurricane
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2061	Posted - 2015.06.26 09:22:44 - [529] - Quote The Sinister wrote: To CCP Rise: This is my girl friends response on the ishtar subject and I quote: " Is this guy dumb or something? Why not just take the what ever u call it bonus to sentry drones away from the damn thing and get it over with, I think he dosnt get laid very often! Men stop thinking straight when that happens!" And of course I LOL! And she DOSNT play the game... And people are just ignoreing his job. What would you put in place of the ishtar bonuses? Come on, find me 4 relevant bonus to put on the ishtar that do not make it a split weapon system (That would make peopel whine as well). His job is not easy! THe only good solution someone gave was to create MEDIUM sentry drones with 10M bandwidth. Then reduce the bandwidth of all ISHTAR/navy vezor hulls to 50. Then make its base drone bonus increase a lot for medium drones (to keep almost same DPS with non sentries) and put the other bonuses on the new medium sentries, that can be balanced to compete with MEDIUM SIZED GUNS. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2061	Posted - 2015.06.26 09:23:44 - [530] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: how about 10% damage per level and a falloff or tracking bonus for the tempest instead. rupture could do with the same kind of treatment btw (or you could fix projectiles lol). Yep something like this. Oh and you forgot the Hurricane I think you might see something like that on the fleet tempest... one type of bonus is best for a clsoe range anti support battleship, the other makes it an excelent fleet ship. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 296	Posted - 2015.06.26 10:19:43 - [531] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: And people are just ignoreing his job. What would you put in place of the ishtar bonuses? Come on, find me 4 relevant bonus to put on the ishtar that do not make it a split weapon system (That would make peopel whine as well). Gallente Cruiser skill bonus per level: 7.5% Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage Heavy Assault Cruisers skill bonus per level: 2500m bonus to Drone operation range 5%/10% bonus to drone max velocity Ishtar has very good range and tracking with sentries. Alpha almost as HML BC. Capless, no ammo consuming, good rof, why using other hull than that? "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
TinkerHell Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory. 160	Posted - 2015.06.26 10:33:32 - [532] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: And people are just ignoreing his job. What would you put in place of the ishtar bonuses? Come on, find me 4 relevant bonus to put on the ishtar that do not make it a split weapon system (That would make peopel whine as well). His job is not easy! Surely it is alot easier and more logical to change the bonus on 1 ship than nerf the dps of every drone ship in the game that uses DDAs, even ships that use light, med, heavy drones that are not OP?
Anthar Thebess 1166	Posted - 2015.06.26 10:40:08 - [533] - Quote I know this is very , very bad idea . Ishtar slot layout : 5H / 3M / 7L Pure armor ship. As for the tempest. Base stat boost is nice, but instead of it can we get ability to mount 8 guns? Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1168	Posted - 2015.06.26 10:43:13 - [534] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: I know this is very , very bad idea . Ishtar slot layout : 5H / 3M / 7L Pure armor ship. As for the tempest. Base stat boost is nice, but instead of it can we get ability to mount 8 guns? Three mids is just an awful cruiser. I'd also rather fit six awesome turrets than eight mediocre ones. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 26	Posted - 2015.06.26 11:03:51 - [535] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: I know this is very , very bad idea . Ishtar slot layout : 5H / 3M / 7L Pure armor ship. As for the tempest. Base stat boost is nice, but instead of it can we get ability to mount 8 guns? And that would make the Maelstrom???? -1 And yes you where right it was a very bad idea. -1
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2931	Posted - 2015.06.26 11:04:16 - [536] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: And people are just ignoreing his job. What would you put in place of the ishtar bonuses? Come on, find me 4 relevant bonus to put on the ishtar that do not make it a split weapon system (That would make peopel whine as well). His job is not easy! Very True Kagura Nikon wrote: THe only good solution someone gave was to create MEDIUM sentry drones with 10M bandwidth. Then reduce the bandwidth of all ISHTAR/navy vezor hulls to 50. Then make its base drone bonus increase a lot for medium drones (to keep almost same DPS with non sentries) and put the other bonuses on the new medium sentries, that can be balanced to compete with MEDIUM SIZED GUNS. The problem i see with this, is they would need a 30% damage buff per level to maintain there current DPS, and cruiser sized sentries with a 30% damage buff would put medium range engagements in a worse place than they are now. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Gudu FlyingSoul Perkone Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.06.26 11:23:26 - [537] - Quote Hi there and sorry about my english, it's not my native language. I started play EVE on April 2014 and I'm a lover of the minion/petmaster/necro way on all mmo's so the Drone path was the natural choice. It's hard to train... without remaps a +8M drone learning it's a 160 days effort but u will have a versatile and solid style on early EVE stages. I think that monitor and balance ships it's healthy but nerf modules with supersets scope it's a bad idea with negative impact on early game (less that 2 years of skills points). This way to balance drones affects the game of those new players that choice that way. 5-6 months of veteran player's time is not a problem but on a noob its a drama. The same tree-level skillsets that concerns early game (gunnery/missile and small/medium focused) are less skill intensive (or similar in time). What would be the reaction of the new players if all the small/medium weapons were nerfed at the same time after 6 months? Advice: balance the f***ing ships, no the aspects of the game that concern hunge skillsets groups Regards
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 26	Posted - 2015.06.26 11:24:34 - [538] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: The Sinister wrote: To CCP Rise: This is my girl friends response on the ishtar subject and I quote: " Is this guy dumb or something? Why not just take the what ever u call it bonus to sentry drones away from the damn thing and get it over with, I think he dosnt get laid very often! Men stop thinking straight when that happens!" And of course I LOL! And she DOSNT play the game... And people are just ignoreing his job. What would you put in place of the ishtar bonuses? Come on, find me 4 relevant bonus to put on the ishtar that do not make it a split weapon system (That would make peopel whine as well). His job is not easy! THe only good solution someone gave was to create MEDIUM sentry drones with 10M bandwidth. Then reduce the bandwidth of all ISHTAR/navy vezor hulls to 50. Then make its base drone bonus increase a lot for medium drones (to keep almost same DPS with non sentries) and put the other bonuses on the new medium sentries, that can be balanced to compete with MEDIUM SIZED GUNS. I said and as many many other people post threads on the obvious solution for the Ishtar's rebalancing. There are two options: Option #1-- Introduce medium size sentry drones for use by Cruiser & Battlecruiser sized hulls that are balanced around the long range medium turret weapon systems, ala Medium Rails, Beams and Arties. Option #2--Make the Ishtar a heavy drone based ship, a direct upgraded version of the VNI. And while doing so, transform the EOS into what the 2013 Ishtar was. (No one should complain about a T2 BC being able to use T2 Sentries, right?) Heavy Drone Focused Ishtar Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to and Drone hit points and damage Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 5000m bonus to Drone operation range 7.5% bonus to Armor Repairer amount Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty
Kaivar Lancer Federal Defense Union 621	Posted - 2015.06.26 11:31:24 - [539] - Quote Why is the DDA getting nerfed? Nerf the hulls, not the module. Other drone boats like the Dragoon just got nerfed for no reason.
Gudu FlyingSoul Perkone Caldari State 1	Posted - 2015.06.26 11:40:50 - [540] - Quote Kaivar Lancer wrote: Why is the DDA getting nerfed? Nerf the hulls, not the module. ^This. LvL4 Domi/Ishtar runners, Carriers, Gila/Rattle on WH, Worm small PvP's, PvP alliance fleet doctrines, SoE exploration ships ... -+This is the impact that CCP is looking for?

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