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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Desudes
Adversity. Northern Coalition.
441
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:21:29 -
[151] - Quote
Is there a reason you're making the ishtar so slow? Have you actually seen the m/s of an ishtar with a 1600mm plate/armor rigs?
I for one love the idea of armor ishtars that dont rely on op sentry drones, but they can't be outrun by drakes if they are going to work, thanks D:
Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
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Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
396
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:22:21 -
[152] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes.
First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE, we are going to make the following changes:
-1 mid slot, +1 low slot Decrease in mass from 1,100,000 to 1060000 Decrease in max velocity from 185m/s to 175m/s Agility going from .52 to .565 Power grid lowered from 780 to 740 Overall these changes should put a lot of pressure on speed based, shield fits (especially those using over-sized afterburners), forcing a tougher choice between the speed you get with shields and the survivability you get with armor.
Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows:
Drone Damage Amplifier I - 15% (was 16%) Drone Damage Amplifier II - 20.5% (was 23%)
Dread Guristas Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Sentient Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
Unit D-34343's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 24.5% (was (26.5%) Unit F-435454's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.15% (was 27.15%) Unit P-343554's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.8% (was 27.8%) Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 26.5% (was 28.5%)
And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes.
We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level.
Will the Ishtar be balanced after this? Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know!
Most of the changes look good, but I still think the major reason for Ishtars Online is the bonus to sentry-drone damage. Remove or nerf that and you'll see progress faster then with just tweaking everything else under the sun.
Also I should point out the nerf to Drone Damage Amplifiers hits some ships, like the Arbitrator and the Pilgrim, extra hard. Those ships mostly depend on E-War to survive and don't really have much DPS to begin with. Both ships can't really work with a shield fit and those ships are rather flimsy without at least some tank modules. The nerf isn't that bad in raw numbers, I just wanted to point out not all drone ships are super-powered little monsters like the Ishtar and the Stratios.
I think if you want to nerf the Amplifiers you should go back and tweak some of the drone ships without massive sentry bonus to compensate. Or you could just not nerf the Amplifiers and nerf the Ishtar itself some more, I guess.
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1531
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:22:53 -
[153] - Quote
Hm. Now I can remove all the Tracking from the Mids to 3 TEs in the Lows. Or 2 TE, 2 DDA, 1 DCU and a Nano in the lows for better speed and maneuverability. Or a PDS for more cap, more shield and some PG. And 2 DLA I think for even more range since the 2nd LSE doesn't clog up the CPU. I wonder if these changes mean anything at all.
Reiteration: Remove the application bonuses for sentries form the Ishtar. And the ship is fixed.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Otsdarva IV
Dirt 'n' Glitter Test Alliance Please Ignore
84
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:23:41 -
[154] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:Otsdarva IV wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing.
Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right? To be fair the only one that's REALLY affected by these changes is the prophecy right? I might be missing something however Prophecy, Geddon, Curse, Pilgrim, Arbitrator, Dragoon, Sentinel. Maybe a couple others depending on your fit for them After missiles start getting nerfed in about 12 months time, Geddon gets hit again, Sac, Damnation etc get hit.
I mean I get that they're all drone boats, and I get that because of that fact they are all theoretically nerferd. But in practice I don't think the changes really matter. Geddons seem to be relegated to a heavy neut platform, the dragoon's strengths aren't in its DPS the arbitrator is looking at losing like 10 DPS on what is also typically bait, neut or other support fit. The sentinel is REALLY strong for small gang, so a nerf is welcome.
Recons are fair enough, but I honestly feel the intended nerfs for the rest of the amarr line are either needed or negligible. |
Otsdarva IV
Dirt 'n' Glitter Test Alliance Please Ignore
84
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:25:21 -
[155] - Quote
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:Otsdarva IV wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing.
Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right? To be fair the only one that's REALLY affected by these changes is the prophecy right? I might be missing something however The armageddon, the arbitrator, the dragoon, drone based legions, the stratios, the astero, the nestor, the archon. curse, pilgrim IE, anything you would stick a DDA to just got nerfed.
I know, but most of the ships either need a nerf, don't use DDAs or don't use drones as their primary purpose
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Desudes
Adversity. Northern Coalition.
441
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:25:41 -
[156] - Quote
Just remove the sentry bonuses and add more drone hp/armor hp so the ishtar can finally be gallente pride
Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
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Judaa K'Marr
Power-Hug Training Bootcamp
3
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:26:30 -
[157] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:CCP Fozzie - 5:47PM : PVP damage per month leader per class: T1 Frigate - Tristan, Pirate Frigate - Worm, T1 Cruiser - Vexor, Navy Cruiser - VNI, Pirate Cruiser - Gila, T2 Cruiser - Ishtar, T1 Battleship - Dominix http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png
No Amarr in there, and with the exception Domi all use shields or have a dual tank option, allowing them to whizz around at max range with little to no speed/tank/tracking penalty other kiting ships suffer. Stop scapegoating drones when the problem is with the kitey hulls. |
ugly inside
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
20
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:26:38 -
[158] - Quote
the WOW version of what CCP is doing: HOW TO BALANCE THE GAME |
Steve Dalton
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:27:02 -
[159] - Quote
The issue with the Ishtar is both its extreme kiting range and the range at which it can control the battleship equivalent weapons it can launch. This change doesn't fix this.
How about making sentry bandwidth higher so that a cruiser can't field five, and reducing that penalty the bigger your ship gets? This means that battleships and capitals can use them, but they can't be abused by a HAC anymore.
Or, following everybody else's suggestion - remove the sentry bonus on the Ishtar hull. Fixes that hull, doesn't obfuscate the issue by nerfing ships hardly anybody uses to fix the one that everybody does use. |
FT Cold
The Scope Gallente Federation
22
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:30:47 -
[160] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes.
We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level.
Glad to see this is finally going to happen. |
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Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1480
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:31:35 -
[161] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:Jackie Fisher wrote:Problem: Ishtar Solution: Nerf everything!
Just as well you guys didn't chose medicine as a career: Patient: I've got an ingrowing toenail Dr CCP : No problem, we'll just amputate both legs, hmm, better take the arms as well just to be safe. Not sure you really need two eyes either The vast majority of drone ships in the game are very strong, and will continue to be after these changes.
pretty much ..
My Gila does around 900 dps out to 60km (100 missile dps to 30km)
4x rlml 3x LSE 2x Hardener 1x 10mn AB 3x DDA 1x Shield Relay 3x Shield Extenders
My Tengu does somewhere between 550 & 650 dps out to 70km (at work so no game/fitting tool access)
6x HML 1x Medium Shield Recharger 1x Shield Booster 2x Hardener 1x 10mn AB 1x Target Painter 4x BCU 3x CCC
Its been that long since I flew a Cerberus that I cant remember how much damage it did, but fairly sure it was in the 400-450 dps range
I can currently fit an Ishtar for shield or armour tank, and get double the DPS that the Cerberus does
So the -mid, +Low to the Ishtar is definitely a move in the right direction |
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
427
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:31:59 -
[162] - Quote
Quote:One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes.
Am I correct in assuming the combat BC changes are pushed back until the next release? |
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
275
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:32:00 -
[163] - Quote
DDA Nerf seems over the top since you are targeting the Ishtar as the issue. It's as silly as nerfing heavy missiles massively because the Drake and Tengu are too powerful. Oh wait... :/
Surely it would be better to leave DDAs as they are for now, keep this to the Ishtar and see how it plays out? You can then tweak things a little more if need be at a later date. |
Porcelina
Evil Young Flesh
0
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:32:57 -
[164] - Quote
C'mon... this is nerfing PVE not PVP. If that is your goal, just say it please. If you really want to reduce the use in PVP, nerf sentries.
This looks like a stealth nerf to nullsec ratters to me. You are nerfing ALL drone ratters, while the effectiveness of the PVP ishtar is not changed at all.
Congratz on doing things completely wrong. |
BadAssMcKill
ElitistOps
1100
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:33:31 -
[165] - Quote
What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest?
Get bombed probably |
Soldarius
Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
1312
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:34:20 -
[166] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Alexander McKeon wrote:Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.
For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.
Distinct and consistent are not balancing factors. They are design goals. It might be cool, but so were AoE doomdays fired through jump portals. How did that work out? What about cruise missile bombers and nano-ravens? I hear those were pretty cool.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about the ability for drone boats to use BS-sized drones vs everyone being able to use lower size category weapons. All ships are able to use smaller sized weapons because those weapons use less fitting resources, drone ships included. If you're a frigate and encounter them you might get a nasty surprise. But when a cruiser opens up and vaporizes a BS in 20 seconds under conditions that supposedly favor the BS while taking negligible damage itself, that's OP.
Remember when ABCs (formerly tier 3 BCs) were released for testing on Sisi? I sure do. Remember the missile Naga? I know you do. You changed it from a missile ship to a hybrid ship because having 8 over-sized missile launchers was deemed too OP! Something about 1000 dps at medium/long range with decent application on a super-mobile skirmish platform that hauled ass. Wait. Why does that sound so familiar?
Difference is that the Naga doesn't have T2 resists. Nor does it have the kind of application bonuses the Ishtar has. And you nerfed its mobility (along with the Tornado, Oracle, and Talos) after release because over-sized weapons plus mobility was deemed too OP.
So on to the actual changes. Seems to me that in exchange for losing some buffer I can either fit a nanofiber and go faster, or I can fit an OTE and apply damage better at longer range. Just what the Ishtar needs. Better damage application and more range.
Well, maybe they will actually die now. Not holding my breath.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
329
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:36:14 -
[167] - Quote
For the people saying to remove semtries. Its not a "simple" fix to remove sentries. Each race has a long range turret/launcher HAC that works well in fleets and has limited utility (drones, mids, utility high, speed). They are the Zealot, Muninn, Eagle, and Ishtar. All of these ships are slower than the other HAC (vaga, deimos, cerb). The sac is both i suppose since its a smidge slower than zealot, but has drones and good slot layout, so is a bit more self-sufficient.
If you remove sentries from ishtar, they have no projection, neutering the role and leaving gal without a proper ranged ship. Im all for ishtar nerfs, but straight removing its projection is silly. A rail deimos will not have the range/tank of an ishtar. Which is good, but will again create a hole CCP will need to revisit.
I think tuning DDAs will help. Its a newer mod that was too strong. I agree that most drone ships in the same class are a bit too powerful.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
834
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:37:11 -
[168] - Quote
+1 on tempest changes
+1 on DDA changes
-1 on ishtar change - NOT FAR ENOUGH
Cut ishtar more please. As it is, ishtar still projects a wall of death around it in a 70km radius. Sentries track too well, cant even approach the ishtar without being pelted by fire - I speak as an experienced orthrus pilot.
Its not even the ishtar per se, its the insane range and tracking on sentries, that ishtar just amplifies. |
Aplysia Vejun
The Scope Gallente Federation
23
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:38:48 -
[169] - Quote
Soldarius wrote: But when a cruiser opens up and vaporizes a BS in 20 seconds under conditions that supposedly favor the BS while taking negligible damage itself, that's OP. Can i have this cruiser? |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
2087
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:42:09 -
[170] - Quote
Wrik Hoover wrote:not ok
do you know why everyone and his mother flys ishtars ? Because you sit at 70km **** out dps and when you lose more then 2 isthars you just run away and no one can ever stop you
remove the 5% dmg sentry bonus on the ishtar instead
yeah it seems like this is more of a PVE nerf then a pvp nerf...
TECH II IS SUPPOSED TO BE SPECIALIZED! Make the ISHTAR into a specialized heavy drone ship...
I read an interesting idea...
just refocus the bonus on the ship away from sentires:
Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% to medium, and heavy drone tracking speed 10% bonus to light, Medium, and Heaby drone hit points 15% bonus to Medium, and Heavy Drone damage
Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 5000m bonus to Drone operation range 30 N Thrust for drones per level
Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty
250 drone bay
100mb
This will turn the ishtar into a full fledged heavy ship for pve and a medium drone ship for pvp.
with 4 heavies you will get 7 drone damage thats half a drone less then now but you also get a better tracking bonus,
Also for pvp 8.75 eq mediums with that tracking bonus will be pretty awesome.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1532
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:42:20 -
[171] - Quote
Aplysia Vejun wrote:Soldarius wrote: But when a cruiser opens up and vaporizes a BS in 20 seconds under conditions that supposedly favor the BS while taking negligible damage itself, that's OP. Can i have this cruiser? Heavy Drone Isthar and Gila if fitted and flown right (I've seen both good and bad Gilas already).
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Desudes
Adversity. Northern Coalition.
441
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:42:33 -
[172] - Quote
literally going to be moving at drake speeds, gj rise
Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
2087
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:44:53 -
[173] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. Whack an Ishtar.
ccp rise is bad at whacking... tried to whack the ishtar ended up whacking all drones ships and leaving the ishtar untouched...
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
329
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:46:08 -
[174] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:DDA Nerf seems over the top since you are targeting the Ishtar as the issue. It's as silly as nerfing heavy missiles massively because the Drake and Tengu are too powerful. Oh wait... :/
Surely it would be better to leave DDAs as they are for now, keep this to the Ishtar and see how it plays out? You can then tweak things a little more if need be at a later date.
Or nerfing TE because the shield blaster talos was too strong? Putting acs in worse shape since they were balanced around TE? CCP does have a history of doing this sometimes.
DDAs are lil different though.. DDAs/drones are actually fairly strong and most drone ships are strong as well. Unlike TEs which were targeted because of a few edge cases and nerfed which ruined an entire weapon system.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
493
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:47:04 -
[175] - Quote
Stop Nerfing Drones. Nerf the OP Ships. DDA's aren't OP. Not even close. This is as bad as the last Sentry nerf, which once again did nothing except to make it so you HAVE to use Sentries on a Bonused Hull, and the Bonused Hulls are the ones that are silly OP. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2915
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:47:41 -
[176] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:ccp rise is bad at whacking... tried to whack the Ishtar ended up whacking all drones ships But then wrote: leaving the Ishtar untouched... This doesn't seem possible.
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
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Aplysia Vejun
The Scope Gallente Federation
23
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:49:55 -
[177] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Aplysia Vejun wrote:Soldarius wrote: But when a cruiser opens up and vaporizes a BS in 20 seconds under conditions that supposedly favor the BS while taking negligible damage itself, that's OP. Can i have this cruiser? Heavy Drone Isthar and Gila if fitted and flown right (I've seen both good and bad Gilas already). so... those Ishtars and Gilas had 5'000 dps? (assuming a nearly untanked 100k hp BS) |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
2087
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:50:40 -
[178] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:MeBiatch wrote:ccp rise is bad at whacking... tried to whack the Ishtar ended up whacking all drones ships But then wrote: leaving the Ishtar untouched... This doesn't seem possible.
ishtar is dominate due to its sentries and range...
they pretty much left that untouched.
refocus the ishtar to a heavy drone ship... if you want to pigion hole it to armor... give it an armor repping bonus instead of drone activation range.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
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Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
84
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:53:42 -
[179] - Quote
Wrik Hoover wrote:
remove the 5% dmg sentry bonus on the ishtar instead as well.
Fixed that for you....
However: Love the tempest tweak. Very much needed. Is it going across all tempest hulls or JUST the tempest?
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.-á He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
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ugly inside
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
20
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Posted - 2015.06.22 17:54:05 -
[180] - Quote
instead of smashing the ishtar and drones in general.. why dont we buff this guy? |
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