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Vernn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
   |
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:39:00 -
[61] - Quote
Avid Bumhumper wrote:Vernn wrote:If I go into an ice belt in a barge to mine, I can get ganked repeatedly by someone with a -10 security status?
Someone who is supposed to be insta killed by concord can somehow warp to me and kill me over and over again in practically free ships?
I have no problem whatsoever with being ganked, so long as they take the security hit, and after several times concord instagibs them. Keeps the game fun having to pay attention for stuff like that.
However are you seriously telling me that this game has come to the point where I can lose multimillion isk ships in high sec to someone who has -10 sec rating over and over again?
Really?
*stunned* How long have you played this game and not known this? 2/10. 
Just came back after several years. Always assumed that if your sec rating was that bad concord wouldn't even let you in 0.5 or higher unless you were in a pod. I don't have any memory of dealing with it in the past. |
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
75
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:39:00 -
[62] - Quote
Vernn wrote:This is a game, its supposed to be fun.
On this point you're completely wrong (and you're the 2nd person I've had to correct on this point today.) EVE is not really a game, per se, it is a virtual world. It is not 'supposed' to be exciting or boring. It is not 'supposed' to be easy or hard. It is not 'supposed' to be fun or excruciating. Any more than life is. But the mechanics need to make sense and be 'fair' or else the integrity of the virtual world and the sense of immersion are compromised.
Botting, exploits and flawed (unfair) game mechanics are poison to virtual worlds. CCP has a long track record of neglect in these areas and that is indeed the single biggest problem holding EVE back from its potential.
|
Vernn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:41:00 -
[63] - Quote
AkJon Ferguson wrote:Vernn wrote:This is a game, its supposed to be fun. On this point you're completely wrong (and you're the 2nd person I've had to correct on this point today.) EVE is not really a game, per se, it is a virtual world. It is not 'supposed' to be exciting or boring. It is not 'supposed' to be easy or hard. It is not 'supposed' to be fun or excruciating. Any more than life is. But the mechanics need to make sense and be 'fair' or else the integrity of the virtual world and the sense of immersion are compromised. Botting, exploits and flawed (unfair) game mechanics are poison to virtual worlds. CCP has a long track record of neglect in these areas and that is indeed the single biggest problem holding EVE back from its potential.
Well, I would personally still call it a game, but what you said is elegantly put, and I agree with your points.
|
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
114
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:41:00 -
[64] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vernn wrote:My guess is he undocks, scans for me, sees my ship type (not sure what info scanning gives) warps to me and kills me. If I was sitting in a shuttle in the system I'm sure he would never show up. GǪand thus we have concluded that it is, indeed, not griefing.
well griefing as an term is really "new-age MMORPG" abbreviation for PK. at the 90s there wasnt any griefing there were PK and they were "ruining" the game for everyone.  |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises
Purpose Built
87
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:42:00 -
[65] - Quote
Vernn wrote:
I'm still out roughly 20 million and by your plan 20 hours of game time. Even if I did kill him he would be out what? A kestrel?
Who's getting the short end of that deal?
Where the hell do you buy ammo?
Even using the most expensive ammo I can find on the local market, I could fire over 1000 volleys before reaching 20M. And that is a lot of dead Kestrals.
Add to that that for all that time he hasn't been able to gank you, you've now made a profit of many millions (for all those mining barges you haven't lost). |
Vernn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:44:00 -
[66] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Vernn wrote:
I'm still out roughly 20 million and by your plan 20 hours of game time. Even if I did kill him he would be out what? A kestrel?
Who's getting the short end of that deal?
Where the hell do you buy ammo? Even using the most expensive ammo I can find on the local market, I could fire over 1000 volleys before reaching 20M. And that is a lot of dead Kestrals.
It was a metaphor. The point is that no matter what goes down the griefer is the one coming out ahead. WAY WAY WAY ahead. The game gives him the power. |
M5 Tuttle
0.0 Training Academy
It Burns When I PvP.
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:44:00 -
[67] - Quote
I used to play WoW in college back before the first expansion. Back then you could get a nice team of about 5-10 skilled players and camp Blackrock Mountain on weeknights. We'd kill people repeatedly as they trickled in trying to make it to their raids. We'd always have a priest so that we could constantly mind control people into the lava so that they'd have to run all the way back up the chains if they wanted to make it to Blackrock Spire. It was possible to make people HOURS late for their raids. The best was when we would find main tanks, because we know if we could keep him from getting to the instance we could keep their entire raid from starting.
Anyway, **** like this was eliminated with flying mounts and the ability to warp around to instances. This is why I stopped playing it. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises
Purpose Built
87
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:46:00 -
[68] - Quote
Vernn wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:Vernn wrote:
I'm still out roughly 20 million and by your plan 20 hours of game time. Even if I did kill him he would be out what? A kestrel?
Who's getting the short end of that deal?
Where the hell do you buy ammo? Even using the most expensive ammo I can find on the local market, I could fire over 1000 volleys before reaching 20M. And that is a lot of dead Kestrals. It was a metaphor. The point is that no matter what goes down the griefer is the one coming out ahead. WAY WAY WAY ahead. The game gives him the power.
Not a metaphor. maybe you meant hyperbole... but it was a bad one at that as it was terribly invalid.
And he isn't bloody griefing! |
Vernn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:47:00 -
[69] - Quote
From wikipedia....
Quote: A griefer is a player who does things in a game to deliberately cause annoyance ("grief" in the sense of "giving someone grief") for the griefer's own enjoyment. Such a player is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.
We are talking about griefing, plain and simple. The ganker gets nothing tangible from what he does. And ironically we can see that in eve there really are no "penalties related to in-game goals" for the gankers. |
M5 Tuttle
0.0 Training Academy
It Burns When I PvP.
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:48:00 -
[70] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Vernn wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:Vernn wrote:
I'm still out roughly 20 million and by your plan 20 hours of game time. Even if I did kill him he would be out what? A kestrel?
Who's getting the short end of that deal?
Where the hell do you buy ammo? Even using the most expensive ammo I can find on the local market, I could fire over 1000 volleys before reaching 20M. And that is a lot of dead Kestrals. It was a metaphor. The point is that no matter what goes down the griefer is the one coming out ahead. WAY WAY WAY ahead. The game gives him the power. Not a metaphor. maybe you meant hyperbole... but it was a bad one at that as it was terribly invalid. And he isn't bloody griefing!
they don't make EE majors take writing classes. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
2028
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:48:00 -
[71] - Quote
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:well griefing as an term is really "new-age MMORPG" abbreviation for PK. It's not so much a GÇ£new ageGÇ¥ term as a generalisation to cover all kinds of behaviours that aren't allowed in the game. It was required since games started to allow PK, making it silly to try to paint the two in the same light.
EVE lives and dies by the existence of player-killing, so it can't be equated to griefing without some rather specific qualifications.
Vernn wrote:It was a metaphor. The point is that no matter what goes down the griefer ganker is the one coming out ahead. WAY WAY WAY ahead. The game gives him the power. He loses more stuff than you do and (with a bit of luck) makes him go away. How does that make him come out ahead? 
GǪwhich is relevant to the topic how, exactly? The ganker most certainly gets something tangible: a kill mail; ganker cred; possibly ISK. Again, griefing isn't allowed in EVE and will get you banned. However, non-consensual PvP isn't griefing. You need to stop foolishly equating the two because it just ruins your argument.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises
Purpose Built
87
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:52:00 -
[72] - Quote
Vernn wrote:From wikipedia.... Quote: A griefer is a player who does things in a game to deliberately cause annoyance ("grief" in the sense of "giving someone grief") for the griefer's own enjoyment. Such a player is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals. We are talking about griefing, plain and simple. The ganker gets nothing tangible from what he does. And ironically we can see that in eve there really are no "penalties related to in-game goals" for the gankers.
That is a general (and in this case invalid) description of griefing.
In EVE (as per the devs) suiciding is not ganking. Until you take some measure to avoid it, it is perfecting legitimate.
Now, if he followed you around to many systems hunting you (and even then its grey) it could be considered griefing. But as you won't move, or take any measures to make him move, it isn't griefing. Just you being a moron.
God... you make me want to go gank miners... and I'm a pacifist.
EDIT: and there are penalties, you try it for months on end, see how much ISK you end up with. |
Vernn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:53:00 -
[73] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Vernn wrote:From wikipedia.... Quote: A griefer is a player who does things in a game to deliberately cause annoyance ("grief" in the sense of "giving someone grief") for the griefer's own enjoyment. Such a player is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals. We are talking about griefing, plain and simple. The ganker gets nothing tangible from what he does. And ironically we can see that in eve there really are no "penalties related to in-game goals" for the gankers. That is a general (and in this case invalid) description of griefing. In EVE (as per the devs) suiciding is not ganking. Until you take some measure to avoid it, it is perfecting legitimate. Now, if he followed you around to many systems hunting you (and even then its grey) it could be considered griefing. But as you won't move, or take any measures to make him move, it isn't griefing. Just you being a moron. God... you make me want to go gank miners... and I'm a pacifist. EDIT: and there are penalties, you try it for months on end, see how much ISK you end up with.
So why is the ganker ganking then? Why does he do it? If its not griefing then that means he has some good reason. If not then its griefing. Why can't you see that? |
Pesky LaRue
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
138
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:55:00 -
[74] - Quote
Vernn wrote:From wikipedia.... Quote: A griefer is a player who does things in a game to deliberately cause annoyance ("grief" in the sense of "giving someone grief") for the griefer's own enjoyment. Such a player is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals. We are talking about griefing, plain and simple. The ganker gets nothing tangible from what he does. And ironically we can see that in eve there really are no "penalties related to in-game goals" for the gankers.
so, no matter how many times YOU say it's griefing, if CCP don't agree then - within the universe they created, maintain and run - it is NOT griefing.
You may feel it is, but that doesn't make it so. But you have come to the right conclusion, this game isn't for you and you should find one that better suits your play style. |
Vernn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:55:00 -
[75] - Quote
M5 Tuttle wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:Vernn wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:Vernn wrote:
I'm still out roughly 20 million and by your plan 20 hours of game time. Even if I did kill him he would be out what? A kestrel?
Who's getting the short end of that deal?
Where the hell do you buy ammo? Even using the most expensive ammo I can find on the local market, I could fire over 1000 volleys before reaching 20M. And that is a lot of dead Kestrals. It was a metaphor. The point is that no matter what goes down the griefer is the one coming out ahead. WAY WAY WAY ahead. The game gives him the power. Not a metaphor. maybe you meant hyperbole... but it was a bad one at that as it was terribly invalid. And he isn't bloody griefing! they don't make EE majors take writing classes.
Technical writing. But it was pretty much a blowoff class. lol |
M5 Tuttle
0.0 Training Academy
It Burns When I PvP.
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:56:00 -
[76] - Quote
Vernn wrote:
So why is the ganker ganking then? Why does he do it? If its not griefing then that means he has some good reason. If not then its griefing. Why can't you see that?
tippia answered this |
Pesky LaRue
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
138
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:57:00 -
[77] - Quote
Vernn wrote:
So why is the ganker ganking then? Why does he do it? If its not griefing then that means he has some good reason. If not then its griefing. Why can't you see that?
You're pre-supposing we all have the same values with that statement.
I find this thread to be ill-conceieved and pointless, but saying "Why can't you see that?" to you is pointless.
Just because you don't understand the motivations doesn't make this griefing. It really doesn't. |
Vernn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:57:00 -
[78] - Quote
Pesky LaRue wrote:Vernn wrote:From wikipedia.... Quote: A griefer is a player who does things in a game to deliberately cause annoyance ("grief" in the sense of "giving someone grief") for the griefer's own enjoyment. Such a player is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals. We are talking about griefing, plain and simple. The ganker gets nothing tangible from what he does. And ironically we can see that in eve there really are no "penalties related to in-game goals" for the gankers. so, no matter how many times YOU say it's griefing, if CCP don't agree then - within the universe they created, maintain and run - it is NOT griefing. You may feel it is, but that doesn't make it so. But you have come to the right conclusion, this game isn't for you and you should find one that better suits your play style.
So if CCP says calling people names based on their race isn't racism, then according to you it wouldn't be racism?
|
Cipher Jones
146
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:58:00 -
[79] - Quote
You can think whatever you want about the OP, you can think whatever you want about how "harsh" New Eden should or should not be. But what the game will have to face continually is people unsubscribing over being harassed for as long as it is tolerated.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
2028
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:58:00 -
[80] - Quote
Vernn wrote:So why is the ganker ganking then? Why does he do it? Did you miss that part of GÇ£campaign against ice minersGÇ¥?
Have you noticed the existence of kill mails?
Have you seen the Crime & Punishment subforum?
Have you seen the ice market recently?
Have you had a look at your own fittings and drops?
There are roughly eighty bajillion reasons.
GǪand your choice to offer yourself as a dependable and easy target for any and all of the above doesn't help.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
First Lieutenant Dan
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:59:00 -
[81] - Quote
Good for you. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises
Purpose Built
87
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:59:00 -
[82] - Quote
Vernn wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:Vernn wrote:From wikipedia.... Quote: A griefer is a player who does things in a game to deliberately cause annoyance ("grief" in the sense of "giving someone grief") for the griefer's own enjoyment. Such a player is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals. We are talking about griefing, plain and simple. The ganker gets nothing tangible from what he does. And ironically we can see that in eve there really are no "penalties related to in-game goals" for the gankers. That is a general (and in this case invalid) description of griefing. In EVE (as per the devs) suiciding is not ganking. Until you take some measure to avoid it, it is perfecting legitimate. Now, if he followed you around to many systems hunting you (and even then its grey) it could be considered griefing. But as you won't move, or take any measures to make him move, it isn't griefing. Just you being a moron. God... you make me want to go gank miners... and I'm a pacifist. EDIT: and there are penalties, you try it for months on end, see how much ISK you end up with. So why is the ganker ganking then? Why does he do it? If its not griefing then that means he has some good reason. If not then its griefing. Why can't you see that?
Because some people find blowing **** up fun. Maybe that is a hard concept for you to grasp, but some people can't stand sitting in front of a screen mining all day. They prefer explosions.
Some also do it for the KBs... don't see a purpose in them myself.
Others do it for financial benefit (either scooping lot/salvage or in the case of ice, raising prices).
And others do it because they can. They can destroy, rather than build, and that is what they want to do. |
Pesky LaRue
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
138
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 04:00:00 -
[83] - Quote
Vernn wrote:Pesky LaRue wrote:Vernn wrote:From wikipedia.... Quote: A griefer is a player who does things in a game to deliberately cause annoyance ("grief" in the sense of "giving someone grief") for the griefer's own enjoyment. Such a player is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals. We are talking about griefing, plain and simple. The ganker gets nothing tangible from what he does. And ironically we can see that in eve there really are no "penalties related to in-game goals" for the gankers. so, no matter how many times YOU say it's griefing, if CCP don't agree then - within the universe they created, maintain and run - it is NOT griefing. You may feel it is, but that doesn't make it so. But you have come to the right conclusion, this game isn't for you and you should find one that better suits your play style. So if CCP says calling people names based on their race isn't racism, then according to you it wouldn't be racism? The day you're mining in the real world and someone comes and blows up your hulk, come back and let's compare the real world with a game, shall we?
Using a true racist insult remains racism, calling someone "a gallente pedo" isn't racism as this is a game, and that insult - like your hulk - doesn't really exist.
Get over it, grow up, move on.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
534
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 04:01:00 -
[84] - Quote
When your security status gets low enough and you enter a system too high in security rating compared to your negative security status, TWO things of note happen :
(1) the NAVY of the sovereign faction will attack you (same as it happens with enemy militia players)
*** in the SPECIAL CASE EXCEPTION when you do that in a system where CONCORD has sov, then you WILL get CONCORDOKKENED, but otherwise it's just navy ships - annoying but avoidable, killable, tankable
and
(2) OTHER PLAYERS CAN SHOOT AT YOU WHENEVER THEY DAMN WELL PLEASE without getting CONCORDOKKENED themselves.
Some other noteworthy thing happens when you hit a low enough security rating, namely, somebody assisting you will get punished for doing so, but that's a different story. Still somewhat relevant though.
And yes, all of those things are fully intentional, and they *DO* make highsec quite safe, actually, since it means you don't just have to sit and watch for some guy to engage you first, you can engage "the bad guy" at any moment you damn well please.
It's a HUGE step between looking at a few slightly yellow fellows on a gate going "oh, yeah, somebody will get suicide-ganked", or looking at a bunch of flashy reds and going "I'd better get into a PvP ship and come shoot at these guys, fast".
The fact more people don't bother to go hunting for -5s or lower in highsec it's what's the REAL problem.
And it's completely a PLAYER problem.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection |
First Lieutenant Dan
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 04:01:00 -
[85] - Quote
Hey you guys stop spamming a troll. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises
Purpose Built
87
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 04:03:00 -
[86] - Quote
Vernn wrote:Pesky LaRue wrote:Vernn wrote:From wikipedia.... Quote: A griefer is a player who does things in a game to deliberately cause annoyance ("grief" in the sense of "giving someone grief") for the griefer's own enjoyment. Such a player is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals. We are talking about griefing, plain and simple. The ganker gets nothing tangible from what he does. And ironically we can see that in eve there really are no "penalties related to in-game goals" for the gankers. so, no matter how many times YOU say it's griefing, if CCP don't agree then - within the universe they created, maintain and run - it is NOT griefing. You may feel it is, but that doesn't make it so. But you have come to the right conclusion, this game isn't for you and you should find one that better suits your play style. So if CCP says calling people names based on their race isn't racism, then according to you it wouldn't be racism?
What is said in chat usually is not covered under gameplay.
Ganking is gameplay, (griefing too, but its illegal) and CCP has say over what their gameplay is and isn't. |
Vernn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 04:04:00 -
[87] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vernn wrote:So why is the ganker ganking then? Why does he do it? Did you miss that part of Gǣcampaign against ice minersGǥ? Have you noticed the existence of kill mails? Have you seen the Crime & Punishment subforum? Have you seen the ice market recently? Have you had a look at your own fittings and drops? There are roughly eighty bajillion reasons. GǪand your choice to offer yourself as a dependable and easy target for any and all of the above doesn't help.
And how are any of those tangible benefits to them?
THEY ARE GRIEFERS!
Look me and you are just going to have to agree to disagree ok. Nuff said.
|
Pesky LaRue
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
138
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 04:06:00 -
[88] - Quote
Vernn wrote:Tippia wrote:Vernn wrote:So why is the ganker ganking then? Why does he do it? Did you miss that part of Gǣcampaign against ice minersGǥ? Have you noticed the existence of kill mails? Have you seen the Crime & Punishment subforum? Have you seen the ice market recently? Have you had a look at your own fittings and drops? There are roughly eighty bajillion reasons. GǪand your choice to offer yourself as a dependable and easy target for any and all of the above doesn't help. And how are any of those tangible benefits to them? THEY ARE GRIEFERS! Look me and you are just going to have to agree to disagree ok. Nuff said.
Fair enough, but you DO realise you're agreeing to disagree with CCP, right? Tippia is simply relaying what they have previously said, not making these rules up.
So....now what? |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
80
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 04:06:00 -
[89] - Quote
Mainly, it gives me pleasure to know that you have to buy a new Hulk or Mackinaw.
Also,
I build Hulks and Mackinaws.
So when I pop yours, it forces you to buy another one, sometimes from me and I get ISK.
Also: Intact Armor Plates are nice, and Exhumers drop them.
Hulks look nice on the KB too.
But mainly, I get pleasure from the fact that I wrecked your 200M toy for peanuts, and there isn't anything you can do about it.
But no, that doesn't make it griefing. Because I'd have been kicked out of Eve, oh, like 120 Exhumers ago.
|
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises
Purpose Built
87
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 04:07:00 -
[90] - Quote
Vernn wrote:Tippia wrote:Vernn wrote:So why is the ganker ganking then? Why does he do it? Did you miss that part of Gǣcampaign against ice minersGǥ? Have you noticed the existence of kill mails? Have you seen the Crime & Punishment subforum? Have you seen the ice market recently? Have you had a look at your own fittings and drops? There are roughly eighty bajillion reasons. GǪand your choice to offer yourself as a dependable and easy target for any and all of the above doesn't help. And how are any of those tangible benefits to them? THEY ARE GRIEFERS! Look me and you are just going to have to agree to disagree ok. Nuff said.
Just because those are not tangible things to you does not mean they are not tangible things to the ganker.
They aren't griefing, live with it. Or don't... you can always leave EVE, and while I don't usually support such a thing... please do.
Great... you've made me want to hug a Goon. They might have fleas... |
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