Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 .. 17 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
876
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 19:23:40 -
[271] - Quote
Sumo Sabezan wrote: You are missing the point. If you have 3-4+ monitors, you don't need all that fancy stuff because you have the screen space to have them all there. If you only have 1/2 monitors you have to split them up in order for it to at all be playable. If they ban pass-through, but allow videofx, then we just click on the window to focus the one we need.
Which is what the devblog saysQuote:Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules. Underlining is mine.
|
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
1129
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 19:27:16 -
[272] - Quote
stg slate wrote:ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. You can't use EVEMon or EFT anymore. Let's see how you react. |
Catt Stevens
Shadow Legion X The Bastion
76
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 19:35:14 -
[273] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:stg slate wrote:ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. You can't use EVEMon or EFT anymore. Let's see how you react.
You are a fool, if you actually read the dev blog you would understand that is not the case, but since you just want to throw rocks you choose to do so without any actual facts.
Don't worry you will catch up eventually. |
Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
17
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 19:43:01 -
[274] - Quote
Catt Stevens wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:stg slate wrote:ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. You can't use EVEMon or EFT anymore. Let's see how you react. You are a fool, if you actually read the dev blog you would understand that is not the case, but since you just want to throw rocks you choose to do so without any actual facts. Don't worry you will catch up eventually.
obviously EvEMon is an exaggeration, but the point is that it's technically against the EULA, so CCP could decide to ban you and if that's the case, there is suddenly a lot of risk to playing eve if CCP can just drop the ban hammer whenever they decide to change their opinion. |
Catt Stevens
Shadow Legion X The Bastion
78
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 19:46:25 -
[275] - Quote
Som Boty wrote:Catt Stevens wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:stg slate wrote:ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. You can't use EVEMon or EFT anymore. Let's see how you react. You are a fool, if you actually read the dev blog you would understand that is not the case, but since you just want to throw rocks you choose to do so without any actual facts. Don't worry you will catch up eventually. obviously EvEMon is an exaggeration, but the point is that it's technically against the EULA, so CCP could decide to ban you and if that's the case, there is suddenly a lot of risk to playing eve if CCP can just drop the ban hammer whenever they decide to change their opinion.
Again you do not realise that this is the case in ALL GAMES. CCP could ban you right now for NOTHING.
Why light bonfires and get pitch forks just because they have actually NAMED things they do not want you to do. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7253
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 19:54:14 -
[276] - Quote
Catt Stevens wrote:Again you do not realise that this is the case in ALL GAMES. CCP could ban you right now for NOTHING.
Why light bonfires and get pitch forks just because they have actually NAMED things they do not want you to do. Because they;ve literally stated in this dev blog that they dont; care how you accomplish it, but if you get picked up by their analysis as having done anything bad you'll get banned, but we know full well that there's a lot of legitimate gameplay that will look just like illegitimate gameplay. Again I point out that this is OK, but this is not OK.
It's also because it makes no sense at all. Supposedly the rules are there to stop people having an unfair advantage from 3rd party apps, but then this is potentially OK because it's eve-o preview (and it definitely gives an advantage), and the multitude of other apps that give absolutely massive advantages to their users over people who don't use apps apparently don't count either.
Basically saying "It's not OK to use third party apps to gain an advantage, except sometimes. We won't tell you what those sometimes are, but if you get caught you're banned." is just not acceptable, and as paying customers we should demand clear, concise and fair rules.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
|
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
876
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 19:55:39 -
[277] - Quote
Som Boty wrote: obviously EvEMon is an exaggeration, but the point is that it's technically against the EULA, so CCP could decide to ban you and if that's the case, there is suddenly a lot of risk to playing eve if CCP can just drop the ban hammer whenever they decide to change their opinion.
You just need to turn the cache scraper part of it off. Evemon works via Eve's API. All the information that is available through the API has been made available by CCP to be used. Using the API is fine, as long as you obey the 3rd-party developer policies CCP has. |
Catt Stevens
Shadow Legion X The Bastion
78
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 19:59:38 -
[278] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote: but if you get picked up by their analysis as having done anything bad you'll get banned, but we know full well that there's a lot of legitimate gameplay that will look just like illegitimate gameplay. Again I point out that this is OK, but this is not OK.
Please explain how you know for a fact that your example will work as you have stated? Do you know what CCP logs on their side? Are you a CCP employee? Do you have an inside source? No? Then you are just making assumptions. |
Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
17
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 20:09:25 -
[279] - Quote
Catt Stevens wrote:Lucas Kell wrote: but if you get picked up by their analysis as having done anything bad you'll get banned, but we know full well that there's a lot of legitimate gameplay that will look just like illegitimate gameplay. Again I point out that this is OK, but this is not OK. Please explain how you know for a fact that your example will work as you have stated? Do you know what CCP logs on their side? Are you a CCP employee? Do you have an inside source? No? Then you are just making assumptions.
please explain how you know it to be different? You can't, that's the point! There is a lot of uncertainty. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7254
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 20:13:52 -
[280] - Quote
Catt Stevens wrote:Lucas Kell wrote: but if you get picked up by their analysis as having done anything bad you'll get banned, but we know full well that there's a lot of legitimate gameplay that will look just like illegitimate gameplay. Again I point out that this is OK, but this is not OK. Please explain how you know for a fact that your example will work as you have stated? Do you know what CCP logs on their side? Are you a CCP employee? Do you have an inside source? No? Then you are just making assumptions. No, I'm not a CCP employee, but I've listened to what theyv'e said on the matter in the past, so I know that the vast majority of their detection is server side. Being a developer I also know how applications work so I know that without a hefty bit of client side detection you won't be able to tell whether someone is looking at their overview and getting the intel from cut up pieces of clients or doing the same from layered windows.
While neither of us can know for certain how it works out, I'd pretty heavily bet they have no way of telling the difference between the two.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
|
|
Ran
Merhn Ghostly Fleet
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 20:13:56 -
[281] - Quote
It must be clarified: will CCP that ONE player = ONE active eve client = ONE account = ONE subscription or multiboxin allowed and sponsored(The Power of 2 special offer). That for multiboxing you need more monitors or helping tools (ISBoxer etc...), for me its equal.
I think by CCP, left leg dont know what right leg do. |
Mintoko
Taedium In Perpetuam
39
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 20:36:45 -
[282] - Quote
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:Som Boty wrote: obviously EvEMon is an exaggeration, but the point is that it's technically against the EULA, so CCP could decide to ban you and if that's the case, there is suddenly a lot of risk to playing eve if CCP can just drop the ban hammer whenever they decide to change their opinion.
You just need to turn the cache scraper part of it off. Evemon works via Eve's API. All the information that is available through the API has been made available by CCP to be used. Using the API is fine, as long as you obey the 3rd-party developer policies CCP has.
Unless they plan to rewrite it, the market cache scraper is not going to be in version 3 of Evemon. |
ShadowBill
Federation Interstellar Resources Silent Infinity
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 20:59:12 -
[283] - Quote
My question falls under character transfer and buying. Now that we can buy another character's skills, through skill extractor/injector; why or how can we just buy a character outright? |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2288
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 21:44:42 -
[284] - Quote
ShadowBill wrote:My question falls under character transfer and buying. Now that we can buy another character's skills, through skill extractor/injector; why or how can we just buy a character outright?
The character bazaar still exists.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Nikolai Agnon
Dirt 'n' Glitter Local Is Primary
66
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 21:54:24 -
[285] - Quote
I run three clients on Linux in a tiled window manager (Debian; 'Awesome'), and I have two monitors. I am capable of playing with three "fullscreen" clients active on the same tag simultaneously (three clients on one screen, all in "fullscreen" mode), and I usually have a fourth window reserved for something else entirely. My other monitor, typically, is reserved for fullscreen browsing or watching documentaries. If I were to add just one more account, which I'm considering doing, I could fully play the game with 4 clients in a box layout with no window overlap (Awesome does not decorate windows). If I were to upscale further, then I could feasibly play with 4*n clients, where n is an unbounded number of tags/'desktops'.
Now, in Awesome, windows can have multiple tags simultaneously, so one window can be shared across multiple 'desktops'. If I were a nullbear, it would be extremely feasible to leave 1/4 of each tag dedicated to a single "intel" client with a cloaky scout one system out. This would essentially give me all the data available to a single client, across multiple screens, with the same effect as if it were merely overlaid over a screen. If I had 22 accounts (for hardcore mining or ratting or whatever), I could have 7 tags configured to 3-clients-per-tag, with a fourth (scout alt) shown across all 7 tags.
This merely implements basic OS-level features, but under the vague definitions outlined in the dev blog, I fear I'm at risk merely for playing with different system settings.
- Claiming Awesome is third-party would be equitable to saying Gnome3 or KDE is third-party, at which point no Linux gamers are capable of playing EVE (you cannot play a game without a graphical desktop environment)
- Wine, however, is a third-party tool that is required for any Linux gamer to play. There's no native Linux Eve client, but we have Wine, which spoofs Windows binary calls.
- Awesome in particular changes window focus every time the mouse moves or clicks onto a different window. This might look suspicious in logs, especially depending on how CCP decides to combat overlays via server logs (I imagine mouse location is recorded whenever window changes focus)
- In practice, the demonstration mentioned above is no different from having multiple clients in windowed mode (a person on Reddit posted this screenshot)
Quote:We donGÇÖt know all the tools out there and what they do exactly - and frankly we donGÇÖt care. If you get banned, then this is because the results of what you did and how you potentially gained from it manifested in our server-side logs.
Essentially, without any non-OS third-party software, I'm worried I could be at risk because my desktop environment natively supports a configuration that might look suspiciously similar, server-side, to graphical overlay use. Under the "we don't care" pretense, I have no protection in case someone decides "hey, this guy looks a little suspicious". There's no leeway for providing evidence of battlestation configuration, for OS discrepancies, for any false flags raised from Wine, for anything.
This dev blog essentially says Linux gamers risk having their right to play revoked at any time for any reason at all, outside of their means to prevent. CCP, can you please clarify ANY of the points that have been mentioned in this thread? |
Cynuu
Risen from Ashes inPanic
5
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 22:16:09 -
[286] - Quote
Paying client for over 10 years for six accounts and definitely not happy with the overlay decision by CCP. CCP has cultivated the 3rd party application use for years, and it has been massively successful, and makes Eve one of the greatest games around.
But, now with this EULA change and the vagueness of a fortune cookie language, I am in doubt if the style of play I have been paying the game in for years now can be continued. The arrogance regarding not caring what the players are doing and only the server side logs being evidence is troubling to say the least. Quote:and frankly we donGÇÖt care is never a statement that should be made by an organization that provides a service to paying customers.
Lest you forget CCP, I am the paying customer. I keep the lights on. There are many more like me to be sure, but if I am alienated, so may others. This is a game, and should be enjoyable to play, if you make it anything other than that, it is at your own peril. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5773
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 22:17:28 -
[287] - Quote
Nikolai Agnon wrote:This dev blog essentially says Linux gamers risk having their right to play revoked at any time for any reason at all, outside of their means to prevent. Playing EVE via Linux is unsupported. Do so at your own risk.
[FYI, I'm a professional Linux OS developer. I play EVE using Windows 8.1.] |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
97
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 22:24:53 -
[288] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Nikolai Agnon wrote:This dev blog essentially says Linux gamers risk having their right to play revoked at any time for any reason at all, outside of their means to prevent. Playing EVE via Linux is unsupported. Do so at your own risk. [FYI, I'm a professional Linux OS developer. I play EVE using Windows 8.1.]
I'm pretty sure CCP dropped Linux client support in favor of support via Wine. I could be wrong. |
Nikolai Agnon
Dirt 'n' Glitter Local Is Primary
68
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 22:25:49 -
[289] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Nikolai Agnon wrote:This dev blog essentially says Linux gamers risk having their right to play revoked at any time for any reason at all, outside of their means to prevent. Playing EVE via Linux is unsupported. Do so at your own risk. [FYI, I'm a professional Linux OS developer. I play EVE using Windows 8.1.]
There is an entire subforum in the EVE Technology and Research Center dedicated to Linux. It's "unsupported" officially ("mileage may vary"), but CCP have not (until now) come out with a policy implicating Linux gamers as EULA-breakers simply for not using Windows. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
4999
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 23:03:43 -
[290] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future. (Crickets...)
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
|
Proxay
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
40
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 23:05:45 -
[291] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:[quote=Catt Stevens][quote=Lucas Kell] but if you get picked up by their analysis as having done anything bad you'll get banned, but we know full well that there's a lot of legitimate gameplay that will look just like illegitimate gameplay. Again I point out that this is OK, but this is not OK..
Your examples are correct. The second example allows multiple clients to be controlled from a single application focus, without needing to bring each individual full game client to the front of your screen. You can tile the windows in the first example, but you need to very precisely sequentially click through them in that exact order each and every time. If you mess up that click-through process you'll bring a window over the top of others and spend the next minute or so trying to re-tile them.
See this? This is the kind of **** that shouldn't be possible in EVE, it allows one player to control 11 Algos' in PVP simultaneously, allowing for outcomes that shouldn't be possible. Scale this up to larger entities, you have players deploying a dozen dreads from one player using 3rd Party Client Management tools to control all of them far more efficiently than if they had to click through each of the clients one-by-one. I've managed up to 4 clients simultaneously without 3rd party tools for Escalations and general EVE stuff (one hauling, links, pvp ship, something sitting idle) - it's hard to actively manage more than 2 clients at once using Windowed Mode.
I don't believe that CCP ever intended for a single player to control 11 accounts simultaneously in active PVP, try doing this kind of thing without ISBoxer or other tools that allow clients to be overlaid and pinned on top of each other in a way that allows interaction with each, without Windows adjusting forward focus/on top layering of the currently selected window. You're being deliberately dense if you can't see that clear distinction between these things (using what they provide, and modifying the usage of their client through 3rd party apps), but you're even denser if you can't see that it's tied to a massive post about RMTing. They're giving a heads up to people using ISBoxer to print ISK all day in whatever way they do, for RMTing purposes. After this heads up it's ban-town folks. The Stormtrooper dude with his 11 Algos isn't their target or focus, they don't really care about that guy, he's an anomaly. They care about those printing isk all day and want to have a rule to point to when they ban those accounts.
Loading signature...
|
Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
17
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 23:16:28 -
[292] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:CCP Peligro wrote:Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future. (Crickets...)
a whole god damn day without a response. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7260
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 23:27:00 -
[293] - Quote
Proxay wrote:Your examples are correct. The second example allows multiple clients to be controlled from a single application focus, without needing to bring each individual full game client to the front of your screen. You can tile the windows in the first example, but you need to very precisely sequentially click through them in that exact order to execute orders on the clients. After one round of click-throughs, you need to spend several seconds/a minute re-layering each window in the right focus order in order to repeat this cycle again. This is simply unmanageable and useless outside of travelling around/non-active gameplay. Going back to your second example, it allows all those clients to be managed without this hassle, and more actively and beyond what most players have access to do. But then you can still see the intel regardless, and clicking and pressing hotkeys in quick succession will still allow you to operate all of the clients and ludicrous speed. You never need to re-layer the windows, you simply work backwards so at the end of each cycle it's naturally as it was.
Proxay wrote:See this? This is the kind of **** that shouldn't be possible in EVE, it allows one player to control 11 Algos' in PVP simultaneously, allowing for outcomes that shouldn't be possible. Scale this up to larger entities, you have players deploying a dozen dreads from one player using 3rd Party Client Management tools to control all of them far more efficiently than if they had to click through each of the clients one-by-one. I've managed up to 4 clients simultaneously without 3rd party tools for Escalations and general EVE stuff (one hauling, links, pvp ship, something sitting idle) - it's hard to actively manage more than 2 clients at once using Windowed Mode. That is possible with absolutely no tools. That guy assisted his drones then just fired with one client and all of the drones launched. Anyone can do that with no tools. The reason there's 11 is that one fires the gun for the drones to trigger and the other 10 assist the drones for the maximum 50 assisted drones.
Depending on the task you are performing it can be pretty easy to multibox anyway. Without any tools I have 3 monitors at a minimum and can easily run a few clients on each without much trouble. Something low input like mining, 16 accounts is a breeze.
Proxay wrote:I don't believe that CCP ever intended for a single player to control 11 accounts simultaneously in active PVP, try doing this kind of thing without ISBoxer or other tools that allow clients to be overlaid and pinned on top of each other in a way that allows interaction with each, without Windows adjusting forward focus/on top layering of the currently selected window. You're being deliberately dense if you can't see that clear distinction between these things (using what they provide, and modifying the usage of their client through 3rd party apps), but you're even denser if you can't see that it's tied to a massive post about RMTing. Does this bit make you feel a bit silly now you realise there's a huge chance he did in fact do that without ISBoxer?
I don't much care about the second half of the post, though effectively they're saying "if you're too efficient and our data analysis picks you up, you will be banned, but if you buy isk, something you know for a fact is against the rules, you can completely avoid the ban".
Proxay wrote:They're giving a heads up to people using ISBoxer to print ISK all day in whatever way they do, for RMTing purposes. After this heads up it's ban-town folks. The Stormtrooper dude with his 11 Algos isn't their target or focus, they don't really care about that guy, he's an anomaly. They care about those printing isk all day and want to have a rule to point to when they ban those accounts. No, it really isn't. If RMT were their target, they'd go after bots and they'd go after easy mechanics, since that's why things like mining and missions are so easily scalable. If they were really going after RMT they'd go after casino sites and the like too, since they rake in literally trillions, and let's face it, that's getting RMTed.
Ed: to be honest you only need to look at the accounts per player graph to realise that the number of heavy multiboxers is pretty minimal.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
|
Mag's
Azn Empire
21329
|
Posted - 2016.02.25 00:05:33 -
[294] - Quote
Cynuu wrote:Quote:and frankly we donGÇÖt care is never a statement that should be made by an organization that provides a service to paying customers. Lest you forget CCP, I am the paying customer. I keep the lights on. There are many more like me to be sure, but if I am alienated, so may others. This is a game, and should be enjoyable to play, if you make it anything other than that, it is at your own peril. Well their attitude is rubbing off. So success in that regard.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
lord xavier
Hax.
106
|
Posted - 2016.02.25 00:22:20 -
[295] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future. Questions in here not serious enough for response? Well, I guess go ahead and kill first, ask questions later I suppose. We shall see how well eve functions when half the player base containing 2/3 of the accounts are banned. Cause space aint empty enough.
7 more days on 90% of my accounts. Not even going to bother paying for the next subs until there is clarification on what will and wont be allowed, and the detection methods you're using. |
Praal
Bearded BattleBears I N F A M O U S
22
|
Posted - 2016.02.25 00:30:32 -
[296] - Quote
Proxay wrote: The second example allows multiple clients to be controlled from a single application focus, without needing to bring each individual full game client to the front of your screen.
Overlays can be input-relaying or not. It would have made more sense if they banned the former than banning anyvisual stitching together.
Proxay wrote:You can tile the windows in the first example, but you need to very precisely sequentially click through them in that exact order to execute orders on the clients. This falls apart in the presence of OSs that focus on hover but do not raise on click.
Proxay wrote:They're giving a heads up to people using ISBoxer to print ISK all day in whatever way they do, for RMTing purposes. After this heads up it's ban-town folks. Except printing ISK all day is accomplished with AFK Isktars which only need trending to every 10-15 minutes and just need to watch one local. Overlays are of minimal value there. |
Chalithra Lathar
Rhongomiant Legion Industries The Explicit Alliance
41
|
Posted - 2016.02.25 00:42:57 -
[297] - Quote
Proxay wrote:See this? This is the kind of **** that shouldn't be possible in EVE, it allows one player to control 11 Algos' in PVP simultaneously, allowing for outcomes that shouldn't be possible. what is drone assist. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6947
|
Posted - 2016.02.25 00:48:25 -
[298] - Quote
Praal wrote:Proxay wrote:They're giving a heads up to people using ISBoxer to print ISK all day in whatever way they do, for RMTing purposes. After this heads up it's ban-town folks. Except printing ISK all day is accomplished with AFK Isktars which only need trending to every 10-15 minutes and just need to watch one local. Overlays are of minimal value there. They just need to kill the drone autoaggro. Replace drones with drone squadrons!
Chalithra Lathar wrote:Proxay wrote:See this? This is the kind of **** that shouldn't be possible in EVE, it allows one player to control 11 Algos' in PVP simultaneously, allowing for outcomes that shouldn't be possible. what is drone assist. Mm, drone assist. Some ships are a lot better for assisting as they use less but seriously boosted drones, which makes the cap less of an issue.
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
96
|
Posted - 2016.02.25 00:51:43 -
[299] - Quote
You could probably allow us overcome the need for 3rd party stuff if you gave us the tools.
I mean you've killed pvp to the point that people won't fly alone and always require n+1 so you are indirectly forcing people to use tools to be able to control two characters easily.
Or because gates are choke points you are forcing people to sit there split screen providing eyes on what targets are coming through the gate. With a little love you to the game you would reduce the need for people to use such tools. |
Matthew Reddy
Blood in the Water
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.25 01:12:10 -
[300] - Quote
Can i use ISBoxer for window management as long as i do not broadcast?. Can i get a clear answer on this. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 .. 17 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |