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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Tom Uchonela
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2016.02.23 17:42:52 -
[31] - Quote
Okay, so overlays from other eve instances inside one instance are now a no-no, because it allows access to too much intel.
I'm not asking this to be pedantic, I actually want to get a clear idea of where the line is being drawn. Is it getting more information simultaneously than other players, or is it getting that information in the display of a single eve instance?
Can we get clarification on the use of third-party software and/or windows 10 functionality to allow simultaneous view of multiple eve clients at the same time, provided there is no information included from one instance of eve inside another?
In other words, if I use a third-party program or windows 10 to have 4 instances of eve displayed on my main monitor and a single on a second monitor, allowing me to view 5 instances simultaneously, but each instance has no information from another instance inside its respective window, is this cool?
Alternatively, if I use no third-party programs, but have a 4K monitor and an extra wide monitor, and use these to display 4 and 2 instances on each monitor respectively (by resizing the EVE windows), is this okay? Functionally, i'm actually getting 1 more eve instance visible than under the third-party option, but it does require more expensive hardware.
Please clarify. Thanks! |
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
314
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Posted - 2016.02.23 17:46:37 -
[32] - Quote
Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future.
CCP Peligro - Team Security
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Atomic Child
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
0
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Posted - 2016.02.23 17:46:41 -
[33] - Quote
Koz Katral wrote:So isboxer is now 100% banned because it allows you to only reveal certain elements of the eve client.
But what about eve preview? in theory it should be ok because it doesn't isolate any individual elements and just displays the entire client window.
As usual this is ridiculously vague.
Classic CCP. I doubt anyone will know until the ban wave hits and hundreds of legit customers are just cut out of the loop.
If you ban preview, it will definitely be in up there on the list of 'dumbest things CCP has ever done'
didn't they say that isboxer is screen management tool?
also it overlay this overlay that - so what is the f.... overlay in CCP terms?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overlay
this? |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1879
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 17:47:46 -
[34] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Quote:Gǣ<GǪAccounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities. Business entities and anyone who is acting for or on behalf of a business or for business purposes may not establish an Account, access the System or play EVE. Accessing the System or using the Game for commercial, business or income-seeking purposes is strictly prohibited.Gǥ Im bad at this but does this means monetization of videos is not allowed ? This is covered under the following policy: https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/monetization-of-videos-and-streaming-policy/ Speaking of which, we recently had a bunch of policies translated and updated on the website, check it out: https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/ Cheers!
Thanks
PS. None translated in to my language... not that i need it
Akrasjel Lanate
Founder and CEO of Naquatech Conglomerate
Executor of Naquatech Syndicate
Citizen of Solitude
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Grookshank
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
65
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Posted - 2016.02.23 17:52:17 -
[35] - Quote
Repeating what others asked: Can you please clarify the legality of software like on top replica and eve-o-preview?
Linking for reference: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5201457#post5201457
If you forbid those, what is about having multiple monitors? |
Niraia
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
397
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Posted - 2016.02.23 17:52:20 -
[36] - Quote
"We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules."
Could you please let me know if using the tool 'EVE Online previewer' (https://bitbucket.org/ulph/eve-o-preview-git) which CCP FoxFour contributed to constitutes violation of this rule?
Here is a screenshot of how I use it.
The tool uses live taskbar previews, a Windows feature that exists in 7 onwards, which allows you to preview the contents of a window by hovering your cursor over it in the taskbar. What you see on my left monitor are slightly bigger copies of the images generated by the operating system.
I see this as no different to moving a client to my second monitor and making it really small. It's essentially doing the exact same thing as the Windows taskbar but with larger previews. The overlay does not forward mouse actions to the previewed clients; clicking a preview only switches focus to that client.
That aside, consider your example of using an overlay to display an overview from another client on top of another. This isn't something I do, but is it really much different to running two clients with two monitors? I think you're in very weird territory, trying to limit the way we view clients.
GÖÑ
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Gibatci Aideron
Hole Violence Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2016.02.23 17:52:43 -
[37] - Quote
Quote:AS LONG AS itGÇÖs fair to everybody - neither you nor anybody else gets any unfair advantage GÇô we are fine with it.
This is far too wide to be considered an enforceable policy. Under this policy it's easy to argue that applications like siggy and tripwire are not allowed, because they give an advantage of being able to see a map of all systems while people that don't use it won't be able to. You're also basically saying "get a second monitor" if you want to be able to look at 2 clients at the same time. We're playing eve, a game where multi-boxing is allowed and encouraged, but unless you have 2 monitors you're only allowed to look at one at a time? I'm hoping you'll clarify "unfair advantage" and rethink the overlay decision. Needed to purchase a second monitor to look at more then 1 client at the same time is ridiculous. |
Asinae Antaelis
11
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Posted - 2016.02.23 17:57:53 -
[38] - Quote
Dart Aurel wrote:There are 2 questions regarding windows switching policy points: 1. Is it prohibited to have 2 clients open and visible each on its own monitor?
Not that it should be prohibited, but the client should be designed to display only the (last) active one at least if it detects multiple clients running on the same computer!
Quote: However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, or for purposes beyond its intended use, or if the application or other software violates other parts of the EULA, we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans.
We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc.0-> on those other game instances without switching to the other<- client windows are clearly in violation of our rules.
This mean that multi screen hasn't been taken into account by design |
Robnik Charante
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
20
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Posted - 2016.02.23 17:58:41 -
[39] - Quote
You guys need to bite the bullet and come up with a 3rd party whitelist. By the letter of the law you've written here, something like "EVE-O Preview" is ban-worthy but I find it completely impossible to believe that is actually your intention. Your policies about this stuff are usually pretty reasonable but I am pretty shocked at this one, given that it offers inferior functionality to just having a bunch of monitors and a nice video card. Is it CCP's intention to reward RL-wealthy people who can afford expensive rigs and many monitors by nerfing us more casual folks who already are dedicating our gaming budgets to just paying for account subs rather than expensive hardware? I love this game, I'm on a shoestring student budget and I dedicate all of my gaming budget for three monthly subscriptions right now. If you're telling me to go **** myself for only having one monitor then I've got to consider cancelling my other subs. Honestly this bit of your policy update just seems completely out-of-touch with your playerbase. |
Raksan Ibid
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
1
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Posted - 2016.02.23 17:59:25 -
[40] - Quote
I wish you would just please come out and make rulings on specific software, such as ISBoxer, EVE-O Preview, Pirate's Little Helper, multi-monitors, etc. Leaving it up to us to guess which if any of these programs violate the guidelines with the penalty for guessing wrong being permaban is not fair.
With some specific examples of popular software ruled on, then future software that's materially similar would be much easier for us to decide if it's safe to use. No need to play whack-a-mole on every piece of software that comes up, just say something specific about popular ones in use now that are problematic or a-okay. |
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Koenig Yazria
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
3
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Posted - 2016.02.23 18:03:25 -
[41] - Quote
Niraia wrote:"We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules." Could you please let me know if using the tool 'EVE Online previewer' ( https://bitbucket.org/ulph/eve-o-preview-git) which CCP FoxFour contributed to constitutes violation of this rule? Here is a screenshot of how I use it. The tool uses live taskbar previews, a Windows feature that exists in 7 onwards, which allows you to preview the contents of a window by hovering your cursor over it in the taskbar. What you see on my left monitor are slightly bigger copies of the images generated by the operating system. I see this as no different to moving a client to my second monitor and making it really small. It's essentially doing the exact same thing as the Windows taskbar but with larger previews. The overlay does not forward mouse actions to the previewed clients; clicking a preview only switches focus to that client. That aside, consider your example of using an overlay to display an overview from another client on top of another. This isn't something I do, but is it really much different to running two clients with two monitors? I think you're in very weird territory, trying to limit the way we view clients.
Same for isBoxer windows management where one can view smaller versions of multiple clients on one screen while having the "real client" on another screen.
I'm not a win10 user, but AFAIK it does the same, out of the box.
Literally the same as having multiple monitors.
Gibatci Aideron wrote:Quote:AS LONG AS itGÇÖs fair to everybody - neither you nor anybody else gets any unfair advantage GÇô we are fine with it. This is far too wide to be considered an enforceable policy. Under this policy it's easy to argue that applications like siggy and tripwire are not allowed, because they give an advantage of being able to see a map of all systems while people that don't use it won't be able to. You're also basically saying "get a second monitor" if you want to be able to look at 2 clients at the same time. We're playing eve, a game where multi-boxing is allowed and encouraged, but unless you have 2 monitors you're only allowed to look at one at a time? I'm hoping you'll clarify "unfair advantage" and rethink the overlay decision. Needed to purchase a second monitor to look at more then 1 client at the same time is ridiculous.
This is so vague, its pretty hilarious. Like most support stuff in Eve could fall under that, Eve-appraisal, Dotlan, and a long etc.
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Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1266
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 18:05:14 -
[42] - Quote
Niraia wrote:"We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules." Could you please let me know if using the tool 'EVE Online previewer' ( https://bitbucket.org/ulph/eve-o-preview-git) which CCP FoxFour contributed to constitutes violation of this rule? Here is a screenshot of how I use it. The tool uses live taskbar previews, a Windows feature that exists in 7 onwards, which allows you to preview the contents of a window by hovering your cursor over it in the taskbar. What you see on my left monitor are slightly bigger copies of the images generated by the operating system. I see this as no different to moving a client to my second monitor and making it really small. It's essentially doing the exact same thing as the Windows taskbar but with larger previews. The overlay does not forward mouse actions to the previewed clients; clicking a preview only switches focus to that client. That aside, consider your example of using an overlay to display an overview from another client on top of another. This isn't something I do, but is it really much different to running two clients with two monitors? I think you're in very weird territory, trying to limit the way we view clients.
This.
Please clarify ASAP.
What does this tool do, which I cannot do with my second or third monitors?
Are you really wanting to go there, to put the boot into people without many many screens whilst encouraging alt proliferation....say it ain't so!
And your own devs use it and previously confirmed all was well! |
Sarah Flynt
166
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 18:11:08 -
[43] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Quote:e.g. GÇïGÇïGÇïIn short: Do NOT use any tools/applications/modifications which either modify the client in any way OR provide you any kind of unfair benefit/advantage. What is an unfair benefit/advantage? Is using EFT or PYFA an unfair benefit/advantage? Is using a spreadsheet to help with industry calculations an unfair benefit/advantage? Is using a more tailored app like Eve Mentat or ISK per hour an unfair benefit/advantage? This really needs clarifying properly! Quote:We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay. AS LONG AS itGÇÖs fair to everybody - neither you nor anybody else gets any unfair advantage GÇô we are fine with it. Again, what is unfair benefit/advantage? What applications are tolerated and what are not? There are some very advanced applications that use the CREST API to make industry much more viable to their users - in fact I would say that if you don't use a tool, doing manufacturing profitably is very difficult. They certainly give benefits and advantages but are they fair? CCP please help me understand. This pretty much. You really have to be much more specific about what you mean by "unfair", at least give us a good idea of the nature of what you deem "unfair" as a bannable offense.
Is it unfair to write and use private applications that use mathmatical techniques that most players didn't even know exist in the first place? Sure it is, that's what it's all about. But is it "unfair" in the spirit of the EULA?
The irony is that EVE at its very core is about being unfair towards others.
Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
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Papa Django
Anoikis Freelancers
138
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 18:11:49 -
[44] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future.
I use isboxer each time i play to get vision on my 4 accounts and to be able to switch easily between them.
Vision help me to see when a warp is done or about to be done, if a ship come at a gate, where my mining cycle are, etc ...
It help me a lot.
I fear that it is what you are calling an unfair advantage, which would simply doom my user experience.
For me the equation is simple : Isboxer is the only way to play 4 accounts simultaneously. Switching ALT+TAB is quite acceptable with 2 accounts, it is simply unplayable with 3+.
I need my 4 accounts for the way i currently play Eve.
So it's simple, if isboxer is banned, let us know it, then i will probably auto-ban myself also and find a game more reasonnable. |
Zanthrus Stetille
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
6
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 18:12:52 -
[45] - Quote
I do not have enough desk space to have multiple monitors. Instead I have a single monitor on which I run multiple windowed clients which I have manually re-sized. Is this legal? Why provide a windowed mode if it is not allowed to have multiple clients visible simultaneously? |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Northern Coalition.
1900
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 18:16:27 -
[46] - Quote
i fully understand your need to keep the eula as vague as possible
however, could you please provide us with a bit more details about software and/or features you will treat with the banhammer soon(tm)?
Much like you use exploit notifications.
Messages like
"As of next downtime, don't use ISBoxer or any other software to stitch multiple clients together for any purpose whatsoever. Here are some examples of things we will no longer tolerate." are much more useful than super vague legal speak that basically says you can do whatever you want whenever you want without any warning whatsoever.
In the past, i have used a tool that allowed me to have one eve client always on top, just to see local from another system. would that be considered a problem? i could literally use a second screen that is positioned in front of my first one to replicate the functionality without being in trouble. that's stupid. |
Sean Crees
Sean's Safe Haven
31
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 18:16:35 -
[47] - Quote
Where is CCP Quaint? We demand good graph porn on our dev blogs! |
Ghenghis Kralj
Reikoku Pandemic Legion
119
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 18:23:35 -
[48] - Quote
I am extremely concerned in your detection methodology. I do not see how you can differentiate 3rd party software influence and gamers with multiple monitors and game instances. I have worked on these issues for close to 10 years, and your lack of assurances for the innocent is quite offensive. You have not laid out anything in how you would differentiate between those 2 groups. Sorry to say, I am not confident in your ability to do so. Also, your graph is cool. Cause...you know...you catch a 100% of offenders, am i right? There is no way that you aren't capturing the full RMT picture. |
Papa Django
Anoikis Freelancers
138
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 18:29:51 -
[49] - Quote
After reading again it is pretty clear :
Quote:We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules. - See more at: http://evenews24.com/2016/02/23/devblog-overlays-isk-buyer-amnesty-and-account-security/#sthash.jOtNQ97p.dpuf
So ISboxer is effectively banned.
A last question, is your detection methodology takes account about pvp or not ? I do not do pvp anymore. I do industry and trade. What kind of "unfair advantages" could i have in this case ? |
lord xavier
Hax.
101
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Posted - 2016.02.23 18:33:19 -
[50] - Quote
I am concerned not only with your detetion methods of program uses, but how this will effect eve for limiting active accounts per moniter/screen.
I have been using Eve-O preview for some time now. As it makes it easy to not only switch between acounts but view each character. It is no different than me running 5 accounts and condensing them down in terms of intel.Howver, removing the legal use of overlay programs such as Eve-O Preview will greatly reduc the efficency in which you can. Which gives the player with one monther a great disadvantage over people with 2+ screens.
Honestly, if programs such as this are banned. I wont be fixing it by buying more moniters. I will probably just sell my characters and assets and just quit. I was drawn into eve by ability to run multiple clients. The additional risk in that. Now though, it will make running multiple clients on a smaller moniter (such as I have currently) just unrealistic in terms of PVP. |
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Koenig Yazria
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
3
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Posted - 2016.02.23 18:34:40 -
[51] - Quote
Papa Django wrote:After reading again it is pretty clear : Quote:We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules. - See more at: http://evenews24.com/2016/02/23/devblog-overlays-isk-buyer-amnesty-and-account-security/#sthash.jOtNQ97p.dpuf So ISboxer is effectively banned. A last question, is your detection methodology takes account about pvp or not ? I do not do pvp anymore. I do industry and trade. What kind of "unfair advantages" could i have in this case ?
Or not, as it states "elements of" and not full screens. The wording is extremely poor and could lead to both conclusions. |
Pandora Bokks
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
45
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Posted - 2016.02.23 18:38:17 -
[52] - Quote
Koz Katral wrote:So isboxer is now 100% banned because it allows you to only reveal certain elements of the eve client.
But what about eve preview? in theory it should be ok because it doesn't isolate any individual elements and just displays the entire client window.
As usual this is ridiculously vague.
Classic CCP. I doubt anyone will know until the ban wave hits and hundreds of legit customers are just cut out of the loop.
If you ban preview, it will definitely be in up there on the list of 'dumbest things CCP has ever done'
Please ban Windows 10, hovering over the icon shows a preview of all open clients (it is small but I have bird eyes). |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
454
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Posted - 2016.02.23 18:40:33 -
[53] - Quote
We hear it on the forums first instead of #tweetfleet, reddit/r/eve, eve-nt
Eve online is :
A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online
D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
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Shadoroth
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1
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Posted - 2016.02.23 18:42:15 -
[54] - Quote
Pandora Bokks wrote:
Please ban Windows 10, hovering over the icon shows a preview of all open clients (it is small but I have bird eyes).
Visual Acuity is now a bannable offense. |
RAGE QUIT
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 18:58:27 -
[55] - Quote
In other news having a scout in the next system over is now considered an unfair advantage. CCP now bans multiple accounts from the same IP, MAC, or Client Hash. Sarcasm or not? Vote with your subscription. |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
80
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 19:04:43 -
[56] - Quote
Niraia wrote:"We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules." Could you please let me know if using the tool 'EVE Online previewer' ( https://bitbucket.org/ulph/eve-o-preview-git) which CCP FoxFour contributed to constitutes violation of this rule? Here is a screenshot of how I use it. The tool uses live taskbar previews, a Windows feature that exists in 7 onwards, which allows you to preview the contents of a window by hovering your cursor over it in the taskbar. What you see on my left monitor are slightly bigger copies of the images generated by the operating system. I see this as no different to moving a client to my second monitor and making it really small. It's essentially doing the exact same thing as the Windows taskbar but with larger previews. The overlay does not forward mouse actions to the previewed clients; clicking a preview only switches focus to that client. That aside, consider your example of using an overlay to display an overview from another client on top of another. This isn't something I do, but is it really much different to running two clients with two monitors? I think you're in very weird territory, trying to limit the way we view clients.
Aye, this needs MAJOR clarification. A good starting point would be coming up with a coherent position in house before playing Rule-Fu with the rest of us. Other than a fork of EvE-O being maintained by your own staff, I know for a fact a great many of your staff use EvE-O and Isboxer themselves.
And before anyone points to the "use at your own risk" bit, I'd like to call horse hockey on that. You don't reward over 10 years of being a loyal customer by dangling the sword of Damocles over their heads because you can't be bothered to come up with a coherent position. |
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
871
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 19:04:54 -
[57] - Quote
Most of you really need to go back and re-read the devblog. You should also read the EULA and ToS. So many people jumping to conclusions that would be cleared up by actually reading it all properly.
CCP can not comment on individual third party programs. They have no control over them. The majority of third-party programs do not break the EULA themselves, however they can be used to break the EULA and that is a crucial distinction people need to understand.
Asking if this program or that program is in violationof the EULA is a question that can not be answered. Its what you are doing with the program thats important. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5757
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 19:06:36 -
[58] - Quote
Several of the posted questions should be petitioned instead.
When your account gets banned, it is helpful to be able to refer to GM replies. Make sure to backup any GM replies so they are accessible outside of the game client. Leave the petitions in your inbox too, so CCP can find them if they go missing from their account logs.
Been there. Done that. Have the scars, and I am so paranoid now that I won't even do things CCP has explicitly told me are OK. |
Tiberizzle
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
119
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 19:07:29 -
[59] - Quote
Many Linux window managers which utilize compositing have standard configurations that allow live preview of offscreen windows or other virtual desktops, and some even pass keystrokes to the offscreen window or virtual desktop when the preview is hovered.
I believe Windows 10 is approaching parity with some of these features as well.
Will users of these modern compositing windowing environments be considered as using third party software for an unfair advantage, since they use elements of one or more Eve clients in what can only be described as an overlay?
If not, is isboxer not itself essentially a particularly configurable modern compositing window manager being used in the intended manner?
If you want to ban isboxer, why don't you just say "We're banning isboxer" instead of dancing around the point and vaguely indicting basically every modern desktop windowing environment?
I am really struggling to understand what it is that is being ruled against here with the aversion to outlining clear restrictions or providing specific examples.
I also think when you start placing restrictions on presentation and input mapping beyond multicasting (or multicasting "workarounds" like rollover bars) you're starting to roll down a slippery slope at the bottom of which lies pretty much banning people for being too good. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5757
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 19:10:42 -
[60] - Quote
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:Most of you really need to go back and re-read the devblog. You should also read the EULA and ToS. So many people jumping to conclusions that would be cleared up by actually reading it all properly.
CCP can not comment on individual third party programs. They have no control over them. The majority of third-party programs do not break the EULA themselves, however they can be used to break the EULA and that is a crucial distinction people need to understand.
Asking if this program or that program is in violationof the EULA is a question that can not be answered. Its what you are doing with the program thats important. ... also a program that is legal today might not be tomorrow if the program is changed Hence CCP can't make anything other than generic statements.
If you are unsure, ask a GM. If you are still unsure, don't do it. |
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