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CCP Phantom C C P C C P Alliance 6511	Posted - 2016.02.23 16:02:30 - [1] - Quote Team Security comes with interesting news - as always! This time we clarify the use of third party tools and overlays. Additionally we have an ISK Buyer Amnesty available under certain conditions! Read more about these interesting news in the latest dev blog from Team Security Overlays, ISK Buyer Amnesty and Account Security CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer - Volunteer Manager

Daemun Khanid Apollo Defence Industries 462	Posted - 2016.02.23 16:12:07 - [2] - Quote Love the graph. Daemun of Khanid
Dart Aurel Space Roar Wild Wild West. 3	Posted - 2016.02.23 16:15:51 - [3] - Quote There are 2 questions regarding windows switching policy points: 1. Is it prohibited to have 2 clients open and visible each on its own monitor? 2. I play EVE Online under Linux + Wine. Also I have tiled WM (xmonad) which allows to switch windows really fast (<50ms delay). Is this fair use or is it an exploit?
Mail Lite The Tuskers The Tuskers Co. 19	Posted - 2016.02.23 16:18:33 - [4] - Quote Just wanted to check with you about 'Pirates Little Helper'. It is a programme were you CTRL-A CTRL+C in local and it brings it up out of game, you get little icons which show what militia they are in, whether they are known to be link toons or whether they USE link toons. It also shows how many of each corp/alliance or in local without trolling though them. It gives you instant access to their KB, their last KB activity and what their 3 favourite ships are. It also gives the average number of pilots on all of their killmails (good for identifying gangs/bait) Can you confirm this is something that is ok to use?
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc 2001	Posted - 2016.02.23 16:26:40 - [5] - Quote "Let us start with everybodyGÇÖs favorite reading material, the EULA" hehehe made me laugh. Interesting devblog, albeit a bit light on the announcements, but the information there is indeed highly valuable. Signature Tanking Best Tanking Retired Exploration Frontier Inc [Ex-F] CEO - Ex-BRAVE - Eve-guides.fr
Don ZOLA Omniscient Order 269	Posted - 2016.02.23 16:37:07 - [6] - Quote SP trading was nothing related to cash I see, yea right.... Now even asking (though I feel it almost as begging) banned people to come back hoping that this time they will spend money purchasing from CCP directly. Wish CCP was honest with us. State financial troubles, increase subscription or let`s find solution together instead of ruining the game and now going this low... There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Suede Caldari Provisions Caldari State 92	Posted - 2016.02.23 16:41:46 - [7] - Quote Altrue wrote: "Let us start with everybodyGÇÖs favorite reading material, the EULA" hehehe made me laugh. Interesting devblog, albeit a bit light on the announcements, but the information there is indeed highly valuable. made me laugh more as you notice CCP post this dev blog just after SP trading came in. I bet CCP have notice Players are gold farm SP CCP make problems for them Self when they are going more down to Pay to Win Model. Bad road to go down Pay To Win To why CCP not listen to it player base in regards to SP trading we will never know.
Opner Dresden Lugus Foundry The Explicit Alliance 32	Posted - 2016.02.23 16:43:44 - [8] - Quote At some point CCP needs to get a coherent policy about 3rd party programs... because that example you gave is utter horse ****. Pirate's Little Helper gives much more information more quickly than seeing another local, and I can see many locals without any overlays just by using Windowed mode.
Ayumi Shekki Thee Almitee Ones Paragons Of Virtue 18	Posted - 2016.02.23 16:49:08 - [9] - Quote Don ZOLA wrote: SP trading was nothing related to cash I see, yea right.... Now even asking (though I feel it almost as begging) banned people to come back hoping that this time they will spend money purchasing from CCP directly. Wish CCP was honest with us. State financial troubles, increase subscription or let`s find solution together instead of ruining the game and now going this low... Think most player have lost faith in eve. Bad ways of CCP. CCP must be loosing money to have to rob players to buy SP which are over priced to why we pay for a sub I do not know, CCP should make eve in to Free to Play and then over change silly costs for Stuff Just funny that CCP have uploaded this Dev blog right after SP trading Came in
Koz Katral Hoover Inc. Pandemic Legion 126	Posted - 2016.02.23 16:56:51 - [10] - Quote So isboxer is now 100% banned because it allows you to only reveal certain elements of the eve client. But what about eve preview? in theory it should be ok because it doesn't isolate any individual elements and just displays the entire client window. As usual this is ridiculously vague. Classic CCP. I doubt anyone will know until the ban wave hits and hundreds of legit customers are just cut out of the loop. If you ban preview, it will definitely be in up there on the list of 'dumbest things CCP has ever done'

Atomic Child Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 0	Posted - 2016.02.23 16:59:44 - [11] - Quote 1st page?
Tavion Aksmis EVE University Ivy League 0	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:04:23 - [12] - Quote Mail Lite wrote: Just wanted to check with you about 'Pirates Little Helper'. It is a programme were you CTRL-A CTRL+C in local and it brings it up out of game, you get little icons which show what militia they are in, whether they are known to be link toons or whether they USE link toons. It also shows how many of each corp/alliance or in local without trolling though them. It gives you instant access to their KB, their last KB activity and what their 3 favourite ships are. It also gives the average number of pilots on all of their killmails (good for identifying gangs/bait) Can you confirm this is something that is ok to use? Second this, I use PLH a lot and hope that I will not get banned for useing this. Yes this program kinda gives an "unfair" advantage, but it only gives information that you could othervise have gotten from zkillboard, rightclicking on the pilot and more in a condensed and quite useful way.
Ayumi Shekki Thee Almitee Ones Paragons Of Virtue 19	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:04:44 - [13] - Quote Koz Katral wrote: So isboxer is now 100% banned because it allows you to only reveal certain elements of the eve client. But what about eve preview? in theory it should be ok because it doesn't isolate any individual elements and just displays the entire client window. Man this ** is so vague. Classic CCP. I doubt anyone will know until the ban wave hits and hundreds of legit customers are just cut out of the loop. If you ban preview, it will definitely be in up there on the list of 'dumbest things CCP has ever done'** CCP for you. don't think CCP care much about it legit customers or players. think CCP care more about the money
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman CK-0FF Bad Intention 14	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:05:43 - [14] - Quote Well then, since they only look at server events, I better not get too good at the game lest they think I have an advantage...
Koz Katral Hoover Inc. Pandemic Legion 128	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:07:42 - [15] - Quote Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote: Well then, since they only look at server events, I better not get too good at the game lest they think I have an advantage... Yeah although maybe I should sell my 2 extra monitors just incase and downgrade my hardware to level the playing field.
Vulfen Snuff Box Snuffed Out 183	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:09:46 - [16] - Quote So am i reading this correctly? If i go out now and buy some ISK from an RMTer and then give CCP the info after it's done i will be allowed to keep the isk and the RMTer will get banned? win win for me then... Sounds like plex sale is due to plummet for a short time if that's the case...
Yin Zheng Sequent Industry Out of Sight. 11	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:12:09 - [17] - Quote I, too, would like to see a clarification concerning the eve-o-preview's ability to display previews of game clients as overlays. It's not clear if this is against the rules now, because it doesn't show 'elements' of eve clients - it shows the entire client areas downscaled.
Suede Caldari Provisions Caldari State 96	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:12:09 - [18] - Quote Vulfen wrote: So am i reading this correctly? If i go out now and buy some ISK from an RMTer and then give CCP the info after it's done i will be allowed to keep the isk and the RMTer will get banned? win win for me then... Sounds like plex sale is due to plummet for a short time if that's the case... Don't forget CCP want to become a Pay To Win Model
Cynthia Asanari Stryker Industries 0	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:14:36 - [19] - Quote I've recently been drawing eve ship commissions for PLEX . is this legit? I'm pretty sure it is, but I'm just double checking anyway.
Akrasjel Lanate Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate 1879	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:19:34 - [20] - Quote Quote: GÇ£<GÇªAccounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities. Business entities and anyone who is acting for or on behalf of a business or for business purposes may not establish an Account, access the System or play EVE. Accessing the System or using the Game for commercial, business or income-seeking purposes is strictly prohibited.GÇ¥ Im bad at this but does this means monetization of videos is not allowed ? Akrasjel Lanate Founder and CEO of Naquatech Conglomerate Executor of Naquatech Syndicate Citizen of Solitude

Jayden Thomas Manson Family Advent of Fate 15	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:21:57 - [21] - Quote I'm really surprised they didn't put an Aurum ad on that page.

CCP Peligro C C P C C P Alliance 312	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:22:38 - [22] - Quote Akrasjel Lanate wrote: Quote: GÇ£<GÇªAccounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities. Business entities and anyone who is acting for or on behalf of a business or for business purposes may not establish an Account, access the System or play EVE. Accessing the System or using the Game for commercial, business or income-seeking purposes is strictly prohibited.GÇ¥ Im bad at this but does this means monetization of videos is not allowed ? This is covered under the following policy: https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/monetization-of-videos-and-streaming-policy/ Speaking of which, we recently had a bunch of policies translated and updated on the website, check it out: https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/ Cheers! CCP Peligro - Team Security

woooooooooooo DeepSpace Manufacturers DeepSpace. 4	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:22:39 - [23] - Quote it was awesome DEV-BLOG about account security. but, i recommend adding EVE Online SSO feature is safe at 'same username' things. for make rock solid, crystal clear.
Perry Swift SniggWaffe WAFFLES. 2	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:24:55 - [24] - Quote what about eve-o? Do you really want people with a single monitor to be in an disadvantage? ccplease
Bug Shayiskhun Upstair Holdings Inc. 0	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:26:39 - [25] - Quote Effective immediately, we are also offering amnesty for ISK buyers who come clean by emailing [email protected] with actionable evidence of people selling ISK. Such information should include: What you bought When you bought it From whom you bought it Proof of purchase GÇô weGÇÖll correlate with our own in-game logs. Usually your proof of purchase or receipt will include all of the 3 items above. For your honesty and cooperation, which is sincerely appreciated, you will not be banned. Other actions will be determined on a case by case basis. We want to point out that this is not intended to encourage anyone to go and buy ISK GÇô if you have already then you can come forward with actionable information and receive amnesty as described above. Repeat offenders who have previously utilized the amnesty program will of course not be viewed in such a positive light. We also want to draw attention to the GÇ£PLEX for SnitchesGÇ¥ program which permits us to reward players with PLEX if they send us reliable and actionable information about security related issues. For more details on this please go here. This is a joke! if you really are going to let people get away with it just by admitting it then wtf are you doing as a company? IF You do RMT you deserve to get banned and have your wallet negatived full stop! none of this amnesty BS, i spend my hard money on plex to support you as a company and to to help myself out with isk or would you raver me go and purchase it off a RMT? i highly doudt you would want me to do that and you want my IRL money ccp so sort your stuff out!
JonnyPew Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 19	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:27:03 - [26] - Quote "So the combination is... one, two, three, four, five? That's the stupidest combination I've ever heard in my life! That's the kind of thing an idiot would have on his luggage!" - Dark Helmet I never not think of this quote when reading about account security. EVE Online is my hobby http://www.youtube.com/JonnyPew
Uppsy Daisy Perkone Caldari State 637	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:31:33 - [27] - Quote CCP Phantom wrote: Team Security comes with interesting news - as always! This time we clarify the use of third party tools and overlays. Additionally we have an ISK Buyer Amnesty available under certain conditions! Read more about these interesting news in the latest dev blog from Team Security Overlays, ISK Buyer Amnesty and Account Security Really great work on eliminating RMT!! But the rest of this blog is just so vague! Even the 'useful summaries' are not useful. Quote: e.g. GÇïGÇïGÇïIn short: Do NOT use any tools/applications/modifications which either modify the client in any way OR provide you any kind of unfair benefit/advantage. What is an unfair benefit/advantage? Is using EFT or PYFA an unfair benefit/advantage? Is using a spreadsheet to help with industry calculations an unfair benefit/advantage? Is using a more tailored app like Eve Mentat or ISK per hour an unfair benefit/advantage? This really needs clarifying properly! Quote: We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay. AS LONG AS itGÇÖs fair to everybody - neither you nor anybody else gets any unfair advantage GÇô we are fine with it. Again, what is unfair benefit/advantage? What applications are tolerated and what are not? There are some very advanced applications that use the CREST API to make industry much more viable to their users - in fact I would say that if you don't use a tool, doing manufacturing profitably is very difficult. They certainly give benefits and advantages but are they fair? CCP please help me understand.
DaReaper Net 7 2771	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:31:47 - [28] - Quote Perry Swift wrote: what about eve-o? Do you really want people with a single monitor to be in an disadvantage? ccplease i'm not sure thats an overlay. iirc that and isboxer use window management, which is not the same thing. OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining! Yes i am optimistic about eve.. i'm giving it till dec 31st 2016 before i doom n gloom
ChYph3r Amok. Goonswarm Federation 166	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:31:50 - [29] - Quote Quote: Let us start with everybodyGÇÖs favorite reading material, the EULA: 6.B. Selling Items and Objects GÇ£You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions, newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.GÇ¥ This is pretty clear however it does not contain anything about PLEX codes. I have seen many a Twitch broadcaster use PLEX codes on give always to its subscribers. However it seems to be a gray area that they still use to avoid getting banned for RMT of PLEX. Can I get a clarification on this? Want to find all the podcasts around EVE Online visit http://evepodcasts.com @chyph3r on Twitter
Lena Arzi Sarmatia 0	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:36:43 - [30] - Quote Would it be possible to clarify: Is OnTopReplica allowed under these conditions? Is software reading the chat logs saved automatically by the client allowed under this policy?

Tom Uchonela Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:42:52 - [31] - Quote Okay, so overlays from other eve instances inside one instance are now a no-no, because it allows access to too much intel. I'm not asking this to be pedantic, I actually want to get a clear idea of where the line is being drawn. Is it getting more information simultaneously than other players, or is it getting that information in the display of a single eve instance? Can we get clarification on the use of third-party software and/or windows 10 functionality to allow simultaneous view of multiple eve clients at the same time, provided there is no information included from one instance of eve inside another? In other words, if I use a third-party program or windows 10 to have 4 instances of eve displayed on my main monitor and a single on a second monitor, allowing me to view 5 instances simultaneously, but each instance has no information from another instance inside its respective window, is this cool? Alternatively, if I use no third-party programs, but have a 4K monitor and an extra wide monitor, and use these to display 4 and 2 instances on each monitor respectively (by resizing the EVE windows), is this okay? Functionally, i'm actually getting 1 more eve instance visible than under the third-party option, but it does require more expensive hardware. Please clarify. Thanks!

CCP Peligro C C P C C P Alliance 314	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:46:37 - [32] - Quote Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future. CCP Peligro - Team Security

Atomic Child Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 0	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:46:41 - [33] - Quote Koz Katral wrote: So isboxer is now 100% banned because it allows you to only reveal certain elements of the eve client. But what about eve preview? in theory it should be ok because it doesn't isolate any individual elements and just displays the entire client window. As usual this is ridiculously vague. Classic CCP. I doubt anyone will know until the ban wave hits and hundreds of legit customers are just cut out of the loop. If you ban preview, it will definitely be in up there on the list of 'dumbest things CCP has ever done' didn't they say that isboxer is screen management tool? also it overlay this overlay that - so what is the f.... overlay in CCP terms? http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overlay this?
Akrasjel Lanate Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate 1879	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:47:46 - [34] - Quote CCP Peligro wrote: Akrasjel Lanate wrote: Quote: GÇ£<GÇªAccounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities. Business entities and anyone who is acting for or on behalf of a business or for business purposes may not establish an Account, access the System or play EVE. Accessing the System or using the Game for commercial, business or income-seeking purposes is strictly prohibited.GÇ¥ Im bad at this but does this means monetization of videos is not allowed ? This is covered under the following policy: https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/monetization-of-videos-and-streaming-policy/ Speaking of which, we recently had a bunch of policies translated and updated on the website, check it out: https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/ Cheers! Thanks PS. None translated in to my language... not that i need it Akrasjel Lanate Founder and CEO of Naquatech Conglomerate Executor of Naquatech Syndicate Citizen of Solitude
Grookshank Jump Drive Appreciation Society 65	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:52:17 - [35] - Quote Repeating what others asked: Can you please clarify the legality of software like on top replica and eve-o-preview? Linking for reference: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5201457#post5201457 If you forbid those, what is about having multiple monitors?
Niraia Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory. 397	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:52:20 - [36] - Quote "We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules." Could you please let me know if using the tool 'EVE Online previewer' (https://bitbucket.org/ulph/eve-o-preview-git) which CCP FoxFour contributed to constitutes violation of this rule? Here is a screenshot of how I use it. The tool uses live taskbar previews, a Windows feature that exists in 7 onwards, which allows you to preview the contents of a window by hovering your cursor over it in the taskbar. What you see on my left monitor are slightly bigger copies of the images generated by the operating system. I see this as no different to moving a client to my second monitor and making it really small. It's essentially doing the exact same thing as the Windows taskbar but with larger previews. The overlay does not forward mouse actions to the previewed clients; clicking a preview only switches focus to that client. That aside, consider your example of using an overlay to display an overview from another client on top of another. This isn't something I do, but is it really much different to running two clients with two monitors? I think you're in very weird territory, trying to limit the way we view clients. GÖÑ
Gibatci Aideron Hole Violence Goonswarm Federation 0	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:52:43 - [37] - Quote Quote: AS LONG AS itGÇÖs fair to everybody - neither you nor anybody else gets any unfair advantage GÇô we are fine with it. This is far too wide to be considered an enforceable policy. Under this policy it's easy to argue that applications like siggy and tripwire are not allowed, because they give an advantage of being able to see a map of all systems while people that don't use it won't be able to. You're also basically saying "get a second monitor" if you want to be able to look at 2 clients at the same time. We're playing eve, a game where multi-boxing is allowed and encouraged, but unless you have 2 monitors you're only allowed to look at one at a time? I'm hoping you'll clarify "unfair advantage" and rethink the overlay decision. Needed to purchase a second monitor to look at more then 1 client at the same time is ridiculous.
Asinae Antaelis 11	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:57:53 - [38] - Quote Dart Aurel wrote: There are 2 questions regarding windows switching policy points: 1. Is it prohibited to have 2 clients open and visible each on its own monitor? Not that it should be prohibited, but the client should be designed to display only the (last) active one at least if it detects multiple clients running on the same computer! Quote: However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, or for purposes beyond its intended use, or if the application or other software violates other parts of the EULA, we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans. We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc.0-> on those other game instances without switching to the other<- client windows are clearly in violation of our rules. This mean that multi screen hasn't been taken into account by design
Robnik Charante Reasonable People Of Sound Mind 20	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:58:41 - [39] - Quote You guys need to bite the bullet and come up with a 3rd party whitelist. By the letter of the law you've written here, something like "EVE-O Preview" is ban-worthy but I find it completely impossible to believe that is actually your intention. Your policies about this stuff are usually pretty reasonable but I am pretty shocked at this one, given that it offers inferior functionality to just having a bunch of monitors and a nice video card. Is it CCP's intention to reward RL-wealthy people who can afford expensive rigs and many monitors by nerfing us more casual folks who already are dedicating our gaming budgets to just paying for account subs rather than expensive hardware? I love this game, I'm on a shoestring student budget and I dedicate all of my gaming budget for three monthly subscriptions right now. If you're telling me to go **** myself for only having one monitor then I've got to consider cancelling my other subs. Honestly this bit of your policy update just seems completely out-of-touch with your playerbase.
Raksan Ibid Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind 1	Posted - 2016.02.23 17:59:25 - [40] - Quote I wish you would just please come out and make rulings on specific software, such as ISBoxer, EVE-O Preview, Pirate's Little Helper, multi-monitors, etc. Leaving it up to us to guess which if any of these programs violate the guidelines with the penalty for guessing wrong being permaban is not fair. With some specific examples of popular software ruled on, then future software that's materially similar would be much easier for us to decide if it's safe to use. No need to play whack-a-mole on every piece of software that comes up, just say something specific about popular ones in use now that are problematic or a-okay.

Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 3	Posted - 2016.02.23 18:03:25 - [41] - Quote Niraia wrote: "We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules." Could you please let me know if using the tool 'EVE Online previewer' (https://bitbucket.org/ulph/eve-o-preview-git) which CCP FoxFour contributed to constitutes violation of this rule? Here is a screenshot of how I use it. The tool uses live taskbar previews, a Windows feature that exists in 7 onwards, which allows you to preview the contents of a window by hovering your cursor over it in the taskbar. What you see on my left monitor are slightly bigger copies of the images generated by the operating system. I see this as no different to moving a client to my second monitor and making it really small. It's essentially doing the exact same thing as the Windows taskbar but with larger previews. The overlay does not forward mouse actions to the previewed clients; clicking a preview only switches focus to that client. That aside, consider your example of using an overlay to display an overview from another client on top of another. This isn't something I do, but is it really much different to running two clients with two monitors? I think you're in very weird territory, trying to limit the way we view clients. Same for isBoxer windows management where one can view smaller versions of multiple clients on one screen while having the "real client" on another screen. I'm not a win10 user, but AFAIK it does the same, out of the box. Literally the same as having multiple monitors. Gibatci Aideron wrote: Quote: AS LONG AS itGÇÖs fair to everybody - neither you nor anybody else gets any unfair advantage GÇô we are fine with it. This is far too wide to be considered an enforceable policy. Under this policy it's easy to argue that applications like siggy and tripwire are not allowed, because they give an advantage of being able to see a map of all systems while people that don't use it won't be able to. You're also basically saying "get a second monitor" if you want to be able to look at 2 clients at the same time. We're playing eve, a game where multi-boxing is allowed and encouraged, but unless you have 2 monitors you're only allowed to look at one at a time? I'm hoping you'll clarify "unfair advantage" and rethink the overlay decision. Needed to purchase a second monitor to look at more then 1 client at the same time is ridiculous. This is so vague, its pretty hilarious. Like most support stuff in Eve could fall under that, Eve-appraisal, Dotlan, and a long etc.
Morrigan LeSante Black Omega Security The OSS 1266	Posted - 2016.02.23 18:05:14 - [42] - Quote Niraia wrote: "We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules." Could you please let me know if using the tool 'EVE Online previewer' (https://bitbucket.org/ulph/eve-o-preview-git) which CCP FoxFour contributed to constitutes violation of this rule? Here is a screenshot of how I use it. The tool uses live taskbar previews, a Windows feature that exists in 7 onwards, which allows you to preview the contents of a window by hovering your cursor over it in the taskbar. What you see on my left monitor are slightly bigger copies of the images generated by the operating system. I see this as no different to moving a client to my second monitor and making it really small. It's essentially doing the exact same thing as the Windows taskbar but with larger previews. The overlay does not forward mouse actions to the previewed clients; clicking a preview only switches focus to that client. That aside, consider your example of using an overlay to display an overview from another client on top of another. This isn't something I do, but is it really much different to running two clients with two monitors? I think you're in very weird territory, trying to limit the way we view clients. This. Please clarify ASAP. What does this tool do, which I cannot do with my second or third monitors? Are you really wanting to go there, to put the boot into people without many many screens whilst encouraging alt proliferation....say it ain't so! And your own devs use it and previously confirmed all was well!
Sarah Flynt 166	Posted - 2016.02.23 18:11:08 - [43] - Quote Uppsy Daisy wrote: Quote: e.g. GÇïGÇïGÇïIn short: Do NOT use any tools/applications/modifications which either modify the client in any way OR provide you any kind of unfair benefit/advantage. What is an unfair benefit/advantage? Is using EFT or PYFA an unfair benefit/advantage? Is using a spreadsheet to help with industry calculations an unfair benefit/advantage? Is using a more tailored app like Eve Mentat or ISK per hour an unfair benefit/advantage? This really needs clarifying properly! Quote: We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay. AS LONG AS itGÇÖs fair to everybody - neither you nor anybody else gets any unfair advantage GÇô we are fine with it. Again, what is unfair benefit/advantage? What applications are tolerated and what are not? There are some very advanced applications that use the CREST API to make industry much more viable to their users - in fact I would say that if you don't use a tool, doing manufacturing profitably is very difficult. They certainly give benefits and advantages but are they fair? CCP please help me understand. This pretty much. You really have to be much more specific about what you mean by "unfair", at least give us a good idea of the nature of what you deem "unfair" as a bannable offense. Is it unfair to write and use private applications that use mathmatical techniques that most players didn't even know exist in the first place? Sure it is, that's what it's all about. But is it "unfair" in the spirit of the EULA? The irony is that EVE at its very core is about being unfair towards others. Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Papa Django Anoikis Freelancers 138	Posted - 2016.02.23 18:11:49 - [44] - Quote CCP Peligro wrote: Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future. I use isboxer each time i play to get vision on my 4 accounts and to be able to switch easily between them. Vision help me to see when a warp is done or about to be done, if a ship come at a gate, where my mining cycle are, etc ... It help me a lot. I fear that it is what you are calling an unfair advantage, which would simply doom my user experience. For me the equation is simple : Isboxer is the only way to play 4 accounts simultaneously. Switching ALT+TAB is quite acceptable with 2 accounts, it is simply unplayable with 3+. I need my 4 accounts for the way i currently play Eve. So it's simple, if isboxer is banned, let us know it, then i will probably auto-ban myself also and find a game more reasonnable.
Zanthrus Stetille Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering 6	Posted - 2016.02.23 18:12:52 - [45] - Quote I do not have enough desk space to have multiple monitors. Instead I have a single monitor on which I run multiple windowed clients which I have manually re-sized. Is this legal? Why provide a windowed mode if it is not allowed to have multiple clients visible simultaneously?
Gilbaron Free-Space-Ranger Northern Coalition. 1900	Posted - 2016.02.23 18:16:27 - [46] - Quote i fully understand your need to keep the eula as vague as possible however, could you please provide us with a bit more details about software and/or features you will treat with the banhammer soon(tm)? Much like you use exploit notifications. Messages like "As of next downtime, don't use ISBoxer or any other software to stitch multiple clients together for any purpose whatsoever. Here are some examples of things we will no longer tolerate." are much more useful than super vague legal speak that basically says you can do whatever you want whenever you want without any warning whatsoever. In the past, i have used a tool that allowed me to have one eve client always on top, just to see local from another system. would that be considered a problem? i could literally use a second screen that is positioned in front of my first one to replicate the functionality without being in trouble. that's stupid.
Sean Crees Sean's Safe Haven 31	Posted - 2016.02.23 18:16:35 - [47] - Quote Where is CCP Quaint? We demand good graph porn on our dev blogs!
Ghenghis Kralj Reikoku Pandemic Legion 119	Posted - 2016.02.23 18:23:35 - [48] - Quote I am extremely concerned in your detection methodology. I do not see how you can differentiate 3rd party software influence and gamers with multiple monitors and game instances. I have worked on these issues for close to 10 years, and your lack of assurances for the innocent is quite offensive. You have not laid out anything in how you would differentiate between those 2 groups. Sorry to say, I am not confident in your ability to do so. Also, your graph is cool. Cause...you know...you catch a 100% of offenders, am i right? There is no way that you aren't capturing the full RMT picture.
Papa Django Anoikis Freelancers 138	Posted - 2016.02.23 18:29:51 - [49] - Quote After reading again it is pretty clear : Quote: We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules. - See more at: http://evenews24.com/2016/02/23/devblog-overlays-isk-buyer-amnesty-and-account-security/#sthash.jOtNQ97p.dpuf So ISboxer is effectively banned. A last question, is your detection methodology takes account about pvp or not ? I do not do pvp anymore. I do industry and trade. What kind of "unfair advantages" could i have in this case ?
lord xavier Hax. 101	Posted - 2016.02.23 18:33:19 - [50] - Quote I am concerned not only with your detetion methods of program uses, but how this will effect eve for limiting active accounts per moniter/screen. I have been using Eve-O preview for some time now. As it makes it easy to not only switch between acounts but view each character. It is no different than me running 5 accounts and condensing them down in terms of intel.Howver, removing the legal use of overlay programs such as Eve-O Preview will greatly reduc the efficency in which you can. Which gives the player with one monther a great disadvantage over people with 2+ screens. Honestly, if programs such as this are banned. I wont be fixing it by buying more moniters. I will probably just sell my characters and assets and just quit. I was drawn into eve by ability to run multiple clients. The additional risk in that. Now though, it will make running multiple clients on a smaller moniter (such as I have currently) just unrealistic in terms of PVP.

Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 3	Posted - 2016.02.23 18:34:40 - [51] - Quote Papa Django wrote: After reading again it is pretty clear : Quote: We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules. - See more at: http://evenews24.com/2016/02/23/devblog-overlays-isk-buyer-amnesty-and-account-security/#sthash.jOtNQ97p.dpuf So ISboxer is effectively banned. A last question, is your detection methodology takes account about pvp or not ? I do not do pvp anymore. I do industry and trade. What kind of "unfair advantages" could i have in this case ? Or not, as it states "elements of" and not full screens. The wording is extremely poor and could lead to both conclusions.
Pandora Bokks Caldari Provisions Caldari State 45	Posted - 2016.02.23 18:38:17 - [52] - Quote Koz Katral wrote: So isboxer is now 100% banned because it allows you to only reveal certain elements of the eve client. But what about eve preview? in theory it should be ok because it doesn't isolate any individual elements and just displays the entire client window. As usual this is ridiculously vague. Classic CCP. I doubt anyone will know until the ban wave hits and hundreds of legit customers are just cut out of the loop. If you ban preview, it will definitely be in up there on the list of 'dumbest things CCP has ever done' Please ban Windows 10, hovering over the icon shows a preview of all open clients (it is small but I have bird eyes).
Freelancer117 So you want to be a Hero 454	Posted - 2016.02.23 18:40:33 - [53] - Quote We hear it on the forums first instead of #tweetfleet, reddit/r/eve, eve-nt Eve online is : A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
Shadoroth KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2016.02.23 18:42:15 - [54] - Quote Pandora Bokks wrote: Please ban Windows 10, hovering over the icon shows a preview of all open clients (it is small but I have bird eyes). Visual Acuity is now a bannable offense.
RAGE QUIT Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2016.02.23 18:58:27 - [55] - Quote In other news having a scout in the next system over is now considered an unfair advantage. CCP now bans multiple accounts from the same IP, MAC, or Client Hash. Sarcasm or not? Vote with your subscription.
Rawthorm D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two 80	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:04:43 - [56] - Quote Niraia wrote: "We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules." Could you please let me know if using the tool 'EVE Online previewer' (https://bitbucket.org/ulph/eve-o-preview-git) which CCP FoxFour contributed to constitutes violation of this rule? Here is a screenshot of how I use it. The tool uses live taskbar previews, a Windows feature that exists in 7 onwards, which allows you to preview the contents of a window by hovering your cursor over it in the taskbar. What you see on my left monitor are slightly bigger copies of the images generated by the operating system. I see this as no different to moving a client to my second monitor and making it really small. It's essentially doing the exact same thing as the Windows taskbar but with larger previews. The overlay does not forward mouse actions to the previewed clients; clicking a preview only switches focus to that client. That aside, consider your example of using an overlay to display an overview from another client on top of another. This isn't something I do, but is it really much different to running two clients with two monitors? I think you're in very weird territory, trying to limit the way we view clients. Aye, this needs MAJOR clarification. A good starting point would be coming up with a coherent position in house before playing Rule-Fu with the rest of us. Other than a fork of EvE-O being maintained by your own staff, I know for a fact a great many of your staff use EvE-O and Isboxer themselves. And before anyone points to the "use at your own risk" bit, I'd like to call horse hockey on that. You don't reward over 10 years of being a loyal customer by dangling the sword of Damocles over their heads because you can't be bothered to come up with a coherent position.
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 871	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:04:54 - [57] - Quote Most of you really need to go back and re-read the devblog. You should also read the EULA and ToS. So many people jumping to conclusions that would be cleared up by actually reading it all properly. CCP can not comment on individual third party programs. They have no control over them. The majority of third-party programs do not break the EULA themselves, however they can be used to break the EULA and that is a crucial distinction people need to understand. Asking if this program or that program is in violationof the EULA is a question that can not be answered. Its what you are doing with the program thats important.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 5757	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:06:36 - [58] - Quote Several of the posted questions should be petitioned instead. When your account gets banned, it is helpful to be able to refer to GM replies. Make sure to backup any GM replies so they are accessible outside of the game client. Leave the petitions in your inbox too, so CCP can find them if they go missing from their account logs. Been there. Done that. Have the scars, and I am so paranoid now that I won't even do things CCP has explicitly told me are OK.
Tiberizzle Amok. Goonswarm Federation 119	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:07:29 - [59] - Quote Many Linux window managers which utilize compositing have standard configurations that allow live preview of offscreen windows or other virtual desktops, and some even pass keystrokes to the offscreen window or virtual desktop when the preview is hovered. I believe Windows 10 is approaching parity with some of these features as well. Will users of these modern compositing windowing environments be considered as using third party software for an unfair advantage, since they use elements of one or more Eve clients in what can only be described as an overlay? If not, is isboxer not itself essentially a particularly configurable modern compositing window manager being used in the intended manner? If you want to ban isboxer, why don't you just say "We're banning isboxer" instead of dancing around the point and vaguely indicting basically every modern desktop windowing environment? I am really struggling to understand what it is that is being ruled against here with the aversion to outlining clear restrictions or providing specific examples. I also think when you start placing restrictions on presentation and input mapping beyond multicasting (or multicasting "workarounds" like rollover bars) you're starting to roll down a slippery slope at the bottom of which lies pretty much banning people for being too good.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 5757	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:10:42 - [60] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Most of you really need to go back and re-read the devblog. You should also read the EULA and ToS. So many people jumping to conclusions that would be cleared up by actually reading it all properly. CCP can not comment on individual third party programs. They have no control over them. The majority of third-party programs do not break the EULA themselves, however they can be used to break the EULA and that is a crucial distinction people need to understand. Asking if this program or that program is in violationof the EULA is a question that can not be answered. Its what you are doing with the program thats important. ... also a program that is legal today might not be tomorrow if the program is changed Hence CCP can't make anything other than generic statements. If you are unsure, ask a GM. If you are still unsure, don't do it.

Shadoroth KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 3	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:11:52 - [61] - Quote Tiberizzle wrote: I also think when you start placing restrictions on presentation and input mapping beyond multicasting (or multicasting "workarounds" like rollover bars) you're starting to roll down a slippery slope at the bottom of which lies pretty much banning people for being too good. Being better at the game than me is unfair. You are using the game client in a way that gives you an unfair advantage over me. Enjoy your ban.
lord xavier Hax. 102	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:17:41 - [62] - Quote Shadoroth wrote: Tiberizzle wrote: I also think when you start placing restrictions on presentation and input mapping beyond multicasting (or multicasting "workarounds" like rollover bars) you're starting to roll down a slippery slope at the bottom of which lies pretty much banning people for being too good. Being better at the game than me is unfair. You are using the game client in a way that gives you an unfair advantage over me. Enjoy your ban. You're allies bested my alt by having 10 people ready for me. This was an unfair advantage of 1v10. Enjoy your ban.
Papa Django Anoikis Freelancers 139	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:20:21 - [63] - Quote Tau Cabalander wrote: Several of the posted questions should be petitioned instead. When your account gets banned, it is helpful to be able to refer to GM replies. Make sure to backup any GM replies so they are accessible outside of the game client. Leave the petitions in your inbox too, so CCP can find them if they go missing from their account logs. Been there. Done that. Have the scars, and I am so paranoid now that I won't even do things CCP has explicitly told me are OK. This is the best proposal i have read here. I will petition with each account. Every player concerned with this should do the same.
Shadoroth KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 3	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:20:59 - [64] - Quote lord xavier wrote: You're allies bested my alt by having 10 people ready for me. This was an unfair advantage of 1v10. Enjoy your ban. But anyone could get 9 friends, therefore it is totally fair since any player could just recruit 9 guys... But wait! I don't have any friends because i'm an *****! Now it's unfair again! BUT WAIT! I can now LEGALLY multi-box 9 more dudes in pvp since that makes it fair again. Or something ** I dunno.
drunklies Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory. 31	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:22:59 - [65] - Quote CCP, if your going to go rules laywering on something as far reaching and massive as this, could you please consider hiring someone to have actual oversight. Maybe a lawyer of some description. I only ask so that when I get banned for whatever GM 1 considers unfair, that GM 2 might actually agree with him. Think of it as a trial program, you might get round to expanding it to the rest of the petition system.
Uppsy Daisy Perkone Caldari State 640	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:25:33 - [66] - Quote Tau Cabalander wrote: Several of the posted questions should be petitioned instead. When your account gets banned, it is helpful to be able to refer to GM replies. Make sure to backup any GM replies so they are accessible outside of the game client. Leave the petitions in your inbox too, so CCP can find them if they go missing from their account logs. Been there. Done that. Have the scars, and I am so paranoid now that I won't even do things CCP has explicitly told me are OK. Why not help us all by telling us what is illegal and what not, even if its just 'in your experience'? I understand the legal stuff needs to be vague to cast as wide a net as possible, but 'unfair advantage' is too vague, surely!? As others have mentioned, some might consider owning two accounts to be unfair, but I'm sure CCP appreciates the additional income. Quote: Most of you really need to go back and re-read the devblog. You should also read the EULA and ToS. So many people jumping to conclusions that would be cleared up by actually reading it all properly. CCP can not comment on individual third party programs. They have no control over them. The majority of third-party programs do not break the EULA themselves, however they can be used to break the EULA and that is a crucial distinction people need to understand. Asking if this program or that program is in violation of the EULA is a question that can not be answered. Its what you are doing with the program thats important. Ok I tried, but the link to EULA in the dev blog is broken... Help us understand! You says it's what we are doing with the program that's important, tell us what actions are illegal and what are not!
Mai Khumm Lonetrek Freeport 818	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:30:22 - [67] - Quote Quote: 2. A. Establishing a New Account GÇ£<GÇªAccounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities. Business entities and anyone who is acting for or on behalf of a business or for business purposes may not establish an Account, access the System or play EVE. Accessing the System or using the Game for commercial, business or income-seeking purposes is strictly prohibited.GÇ¥ Does media related websites that have players providing content in the form of articles for ISK then generate revenue in the form of advertising fall under this? There's other players who don't play the game but use it to generate content on Media websites for the sole purpose of advertising revenue.
Scotsman Howard Lonetrek Blacksoul Federation Northern Army 25	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:31:09 - [68] - Quote CCP Phantom wrote: Team Security comes with interesting news - as always! This time we clarify the use of third party tools and overlays. Additionally we have an ISK Buyer Amnesty available under certain conditions! Read more about these interesting news in the latest dev blog from Team Security Overlays, ISK Buyer Amnesty and Account Security I'm sorry but nothing of value was answered here. You just added more questions than you answered. Bit the bullet and give us a white-list of 3rd party programs that are allowed because with this wording, anything that manages your eve windows is bannable. HINT: Windows 10 has windows management built in, so by the absolute letter of this blog, those who use multiple clients on multiple screens one Windows 10 (or wine/linus while we are at it), should be banned. You have basically just told us that the last "legal" feature of isoboxer (window management) is no longer valid, but you have not told us if the program is valid. DO NOT TELL US JUST TO FILE A PETITION: The petition system does not work for something like this. You tell multiple people different things to the same question. Then those who did get an answer cannot share that fact because you will ban them.
Charit A Yard Evolution Get Off My Lawn 0	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:32:27 - [69] - Quote so ... RIP Intel Streams? (like http://www.hitbox.tv/mrchillin)
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 872	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:35:45 - [70] - Quote Uppsy Daisy wrote: Ok I tried, but the link to EULA in the dev blog is broken... Help us understand! You says it's what we are doing with the program that's important, tell us what actions are illegal and what are not! Eve's policies There are lots of third party programs that can be used in lots of different ways. If you want my opinion you need to give an example. I will give one from earlier in the thread though. IsBoxer is mention alot and most of it is already covered re; multi-casting etc. In regards to its window management though. It is ok to use to have multiple accounts on the one screen. If you use it to cut out specific sections of a client ie; an overview and then overlay that on top of another client, that violates the EULA. Petitioning a GM is a good idea but you need to be specific. Just asking if x program is ok will get you a copy/paste of the EULA.

Uppsy Daisy Perkone Caldari State 641	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:36:15 - [71] - Quote Charit A wrote: so ... RIP Intel Streams? (like http://www.hitbox.tv/mrchillin ) Intel that you have and I do not is surely an unfair advantage!! BAN
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6946	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:38:22 - [72] - Quote Papa Django wrote: After reading again it is pretty clear : Quote: We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules. - See more at: http://evenews24.com/2016/02/23/devblog-overlays-isk-buyer-amnesty-and-account-security/#sthash.jOtNQ97p.dpuf So ISboxer is effectively banned. A last question, is your detection methodology takes account about pvp or not ? I do not do pvp anymore. I do industry and trade. What kind of "unfair advantages" could i have in this case ? Viewing markets in multiple regions at once. Ah but you say, evecentral.... it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players http://eveboard.com/ranks
RoCkEt X Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 193	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:42:37 - [73] - Quote https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/47800w/soooo_is_this_an_exploit_now/ cba to rewrite n' ting. tia
IcedGuardian Assisted Suicide Services Epicenter. 0	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:46:46 - [74] - Quote CCP Phantom wrote: Team Security comes with interesting news - as always! This time we clarify the use of third party tools and overlays. Additionally we have an ISK Buyer Amnesty available under certain conditions! Read more about these interesting news in the latest dev blog from Team Security Overlays, ISK Buyer Amnesty and Account Security No you do not clarify, unfortunatelly. Theres just an mention on being a) 'fair to everyone' and b) 'enforced at our own discretion'. Both of those comes highly subjected to one's judgement and hence not standardized and at constant change. One of the most appealing things about EVE is to play the way one player likes it to be. Why not, instead of tossing up random rules and worsening everyone's gameplay you guys don't team up to make the game actually more enjoyable? Its not wise to do that to a game with aging (but loyal) playerbase.
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 872	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:47:39 - [75] - Quote RoCkEt X wrote: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/47800w/soooo_is_this_an_exploit_now/ cba to rewrite n' ting. tia Yes, that breaks the eula and always has.
lord xavier Hax. 104	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:51:29 - [76] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: RoCkEt X wrote: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/47800w/soooo_is_this_an_exploit_now/ cba to rewrite n' ting. tia Yes, that breaks the eula and always has. Then there are so many products here on the forum you can download from players that has always been breaking the EULA. I can do the same thing with six clients in windowed mode, and just maximize it when something of interest comes on the overview.
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 872	Posted - 2016.02.23 19:55:59 - [77] - Quote lord xavier wrote: Then there are so many products here on the forum you can download from players that has always been breaking the EULA. I can do the same thing with six clients in windowed mode, and just maximize it when something of interest comes on the overview. Its not the program thats breaking the eula. Its the way the program is used that can lead a player to break the EULA. and that video shows a player breaking the EULA.
Dart Aurel Space Roar Wild Wild West. 6	Posted - 2016.02.23 20:22:36 - [78] - Quote Asinae Antaelis wrote: Not that it should be prohibited, but the client should be designed to render only the (last) active one at least if it detects multiple clients running on the same computer! There are 2 problems with this (again two, hehe, there're always two): 1. It's really difficult to implement. I.e. in linux (+wine ofc) it's not always even possible at all to detect whether window is active or not. 2. If only 1 client can be rendered at once then there will be no reason to have 2 monitors for EVE. -1 point to karma
Knitram Relik Running With Railguns 33	Posted - 2016.02.23 20:26:39 - [79] - Quote "For your honesty and cooperation,-áwhich is sincerely appreciated,-áyou will not be banned. Other actions will be determined on a case by case basis." I doubt you'll get many people to tell on themselves for RMT unless they are 110% guaranteed no ban, negative account balance, etc. I figure they've already taken the risk and gotten away with it (or so they think). Why take a chance and tell on themselves unless they KNOW nothing bad will come of it?
Dart Aurel Space Roar Wild Wild West. 7	Posted - 2016.02.23 20:27:37 - [80] - Quote Tau Cabalander wrote: When your account gets banned, it is helpful to be able to refer to GM replies. Offtopic: heh man when/if accounts get banned I'll at last complete this game and can go on next one :))))

Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 5761	Posted - 2016.02.23 20:28:09 - [81] - Quote Team Security wrote: As we receive questions about overlays and EVE Online every now and then we want to use this opportunity to further clarify our Third Party Policy on the topic (http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/third-party-policies/). The link appears to be broken. Quote: Policies Can't find item Sorry, we could not find the item you were looking for.
Morrigan LeSante Black Omega Security The OSS 1272	Posted - 2016.02.23 20:31:06 - [82] - Quote You know with the emphasis on alts and all this grey area stuff why don't you just toss out an "official" client manager.
Rivr Luzade Kenshin. DARKNESS. 2338	Posted - 2016.02.23 20:32:59 - [83] - Quote Interesting observation: CCP wants to remove the IGB and suggests that people should use overlay browsers systems such as Overwolf, however, browsers offer a lot of benefits and advantages that you could easily consider unfair. Kinda blurry guidelines there. UI Improvement Collective My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

CCP Peligro C C P C C P Alliance 316	Posted - 2016.02.23 20:37:54 - [84] - Quote Tau Cabalander wrote: Team Security wrote: As we receive questions about overlays and EVE Online every now and then we want to use this opportunity to further clarify our Third Party Policy on the topic (http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/third-party-policies/). The link appears to be broken. Quote: Policies Can't find item Sorry, we could not find the item you were looking for. Sorry about that, the policies page was updated today with freshly localized policies, "/third-party-policies/" was only available in English before, but now it's translated to French, German and Russian, all available here: https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/ Proper URL to the third party policies in English: https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/third-party-policies-en/ Cheers! CCP Peligro - Team Security

RAGE QUIT Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 7	Posted - 2016.02.23 20:42:00 - [85] - Quote Dart Aurel wrote: Tau Cabalander wrote: When your account gets banned, it is helpful to be able to refer to GM replies. Offtopic: heh man when/if accounts get banned I'll at last complete this game and can go on next one :)))) Which is better than getting a GM to copy pasta you the EULA for 4 replies before they read your ticket.
RAGE QUIT Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 7	Posted - 2016.02.23 20:43:23 - [86] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: You know with the emphasis on alts and all this grey area stuff why don't you just toss out an "official" client manager. Would pay 15000 Aurum for this?
Morrigan LeSante Black Omega Security The OSS 1273	Posted - 2016.02.23 20:56:07 - [87] - Quote RAGE QUIT wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: You know with the emphasis on alts and all this grey area stuff why don't you just toss out an "official" client manager. Would pay 15000 Aurum for this? I feel like it should be bundled with Po2
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6946	Posted - 2016.02.23 20:59:30 - [88] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Interesting observation: CCP wants to remove the IGB and suggests that people should use overlay browsers systems such as Overwolf, however, browsers offer a lot of benefits and advantages that you could easily consider unfair. Kinda blurry guidelines there. Sounds like we're gonna have to go with no browsers at all! it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players http://eveboard.com/ranks
NSA Bivas BURN EDEN Northern Coalition. 12	Posted - 2016.02.23 21:04:52 - [89] - Quote referring to the overlays I have 8 accounts but for the good of the game I think you should make it so you can launch only one client all this other measures that you take are useless YouTube Channel Twitch Channel-á
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4997	Posted - 2016.02.23 21:10:35 - [90] - Quote Interesting can of Fedos here... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 1097	Posted - 2016.02.23 21:10:47 - [91] - Quote For the last paragrph, account security, may I suggest KeePass 2. It is freeware and yes you can google / yahoo / wiki it first and it comes with an inbuild password creator which you can customize and a bajillion plugins you can use but are not required to. And another thing I like to "advertise" is the Yubico Yubikey, which is an USB dongle which is the password as soon as you plug it in. Google or yahoo or wiki or whatever you like to investigate with this first and make your own, informed, decision about it. The Yubikey is a 2-factor authorization tool that should work with EVE's 2-factor authorization, UNLESS you have a computer that has an Intel P45 chipset or earlier model. This is no joke and I am warning everyone with said chipset to not use a Yubikey with 2-factor authorization because of a bug in the chipset that makes weird time values and invalidates all encryption key values. ALL of them, wether it is GnuPG, PGP, RSA. I didn't put any links here you might click "by accident" and start blaming me for things that are out of my control. Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Mai Khumm Lonetrek Freeport 818	Posted - 2016.02.23 21:14:32 - [92] - Quote NSA Bivas wrote: referring to the overlays I have 8 accounts but for the good of the game I think you should make it so you can launch only one client all this other measures that you take are useless I wouldn't go that far, believe it or not you'd kill a good amount of subscriptions this way. It would be better for 3-4, but that REALLY wouldn't stop determined people. For example, using remote desktop software prevents CCP from detecting botting software.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6946	Posted - 2016.02.23 21:28:12 - [93] - Quote Mai Khumm wrote: NSA Bivas wrote: you should make it so you can launch only one client all this other measures that you take are useless I wouldn't go that far, believe it or not you'd kill a good amount of subscriptions this way. No way... I thought this was foolproof. it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players http://eveboard.com/ranks
Rawthorm D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two 85	Posted - 2016.02.23 21:29:53 - [94] - Quote As a loyal customer who's been here since the beginning (Well minus the first few months!) it saddens me to have to say this, but maybe it's time you fine chaps at CCP all start to pull in the same direction? I know CCP has never really been a professional company, and in the old days that was fine. Back then it was a small team that took pride in it's informal interactions with it's customers and as it grew took pride in it's informal way of working, but this approach clearly isn't working at scale, and hasn't been for quite some time. Somewhere along the line it became acceptable for CCP employees to effectively troll paying customers. I wont even go into the unprofessional behavior of some CCP staff towards some of it's customers, but the recent "rule clarification" is just the latest example. I simply don't get how your own staff can use 3rd party software with impunity while leaving the sword of Damocles hanging over the rest of us paying customers heads with the effective catch all ban justification that is the 3rd party software part of the EULA. This is even more mind boggling considering that your own staff develop and promote some of this software behind Dev tags on this very forum. I'm sure I'm not the only one that would REALLY appreciate the last 12 years not ending up a potential waste of time so if you could see your way to presenting a unified clear and professional front to us customers that would be fantastic. If that involves someone vetting your staff's actions and being nominated to be the defacto rule interpreter we can all refer to then so much the better.
A Nony Mouse Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 3	Posted - 2016.02.23 21:33:47 - [95] - Quote How will you differentiate between operating systems which allow overlay like behaviour for task switching and overlay tools. Windows 10 for example lets you see multiple windows in large enough thumbnails to read and monitor just by pressing Windows + Tab. Other operating systems (especially the wild variety of Linux windows managers) could offer a cascading flick book program selection, which if stacking windows so the right edge is visible would allow you to monitor multiple overviews on the same screen at once, switching to the interesting window rapidly when needed. Certainly it would be relatively easy to make the window overlaying part of a custom Linux window manager, and thus provide a considerable advantage in a fashion undetectable by CCP, especially as banning people for a specific flavour of OS they use is pretty draconian.
Morrigan LeSante Black Omega Security The OSS 1274	Posted - 2016.02.23 21:34:11 - [96] - Quote CCP Peligro wrote: Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future. >Posts vague things that now are bannable. >Posts vaguer timescale on when, if ever, clarification will be given. This is a very uncool topic to let people guess on dudes...
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33399	Posted - 2016.02.23 21:46:49 - [97] - Quote Say I have eight screens next to each other in a 2x4 grid, and several of them are scouts in neighboring systems, or cloaked on every hole in a wormhole chain. I don't use any client overlays because they're all side by side and I can see them just fine. Am I breaking rules about unfair advantages? What's missing from the announcement is intent. If it's purely to reduce unfair advantage, it's odd to think the problem is overlays and not the playability of multiple clients and a bit of hardware. What are you really getting at? Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Shadoroth KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 10	Posted - 2016.02.23 21:47:07 - [98] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: >Posts vague things that now are bannable. >Posts vaguer timescale on when, if ever, clarification will be given. This is a very uncool topic to let people guess on dudes... Time to go multi-box shoot a monument in Jita.
stg slate We're Kind of a Big Deal 95	Posted - 2016.02.23 21:54:19 - [99] - Quote ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore.
Tristan Agion Viziam Amarr Empire 73	Posted - 2016.02.23 21:57:17 - [100] - Quote Quote: 2. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay. AS LONG AS itGÇÖs fair to everybody - neither you nor anybody else gets any unfair advantage GÇô we are fine with it. What's missing here is some kind of definition what might count as a fair advantage. Each and every third party tool I might use while playing EVE is of course aimed at giving me an advantage in the game. That's the very point of using said tool! For example, Tripwire keeps track of my wormhole connections and the signatures I encountered. It would be more tedious, slower, and much less useful to do this by other means (e.g., pen and paper, or perhaps the built-in notepad). So compared with someone who does not use Tripwire I clearly have an advantage when exploring wormholes. But is this an "unfair advantage"? Are you going to outlaw Tripwire? I really would like to know, since that's software I like to use in game. And if you say that Tripwire is fine, then what about say the "Dscan Locator" tool in Pirate's Little Helper? Is that kind of "computer assisted" dscan analysis also fine? And if you say that the "Dscan Locator" is indeed fine as well, then I really have no idea what you are talking about concerning "unfair advantage". Unless perhaps somebody has built an EVE PVP bot, or the like... Please clarify. Seriously, you need to give us a much better idea where the line is with 3rd party tools.

Morrigan LeSante Black Omega Security The OSS 1277	Posted - 2016.02.23 21:59:50 - [101] - Quote stg slate wrote: ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their ** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. No, in this thread people are understandably upset over the vagueness of the wording and the "** you if you weren't guilty but the algorithm picked you anyway" attitude to said vagueness. >>If you get banned, then this is because the results of what you did and how you potentially gained from it manifested in our server-side logs. So, if you do $NON_SPECIFIC_ACTION and the system flags you no matter what the hell you were doing, GTFO, do not pass GM, do not collect a ticket pile. Oh these tool funtionality people are using I can replicate for funsies via my 3 monitors alone and I'm 100% ok. Or am I.....? We don't know because it's vague as hell. So in the meantime, mooooar displays #NOPOORS...right?
TheLostPenguin Surreal Departure 100	Posted - 2016.02.23 22:06:41 - [102] - Quote This makes no sense, even on the scale of CCP things making no sense. If I use some software to view additional EVE overviews than just the one on the client I'm actually playing at a given point in time, then that's unfair and I should be banned? Yet if I use other software to do exactly the same thing, I get exactly the same information but it's suddenly not unfair and I don't get banned? Whilst I sort of understand the initial intent, regarding this point in particular just about any attempt to even pretend to implement rules is not only utterly insane but entirely unworkable. There is literally no way possible to enforce anything about this and bothering to try and write a devblog using it as an example of what's not allowed is laughable at best, and deeply indicative of how far from reality some people seem to live. As a seperate point the brief mention in there about ending in-client logins was snuck in quietly, are you actually reworking how login mechanics work in any way or just dumping this to force people to use a launcher for the sake of doing so? If as I expect the latter then why? We do not need to **** about starting an additional program to start the program we want to run then closing the additional program to avoid useless crap running all the time. Maybe someone else can explain to me this trend for forcing players to load up additional needless layers of junk to play anything these days, other than a additional spot for companies to spam ads at me I see zero purpose.
Rawthorm D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two 85	Posted - 2016.02.23 22:10:03 - [103] - Quote stg slate wrote: ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. It's more the totally random way the rules are applied. I'm also perplexed at how something like multi monitors which are effectively a paywalled advantage are ok but free software that does the same thing may or may not get you banned.
stg slate We're Kind of a Big Deal 95	Posted - 2016.02.23 22:19:47 - [104] - Quote Rawthorm wrote: stg slate wrote: ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. It's more the totally random way the rules are applied. I'm also perplexed at how something like multi monitors which are effectively a paywalled advantage are ok but free software that does the same thing may or may not get you banned. I think I can get a second monitor cheaper than a subscription for the supporting software for ISBoxer. EDIT: I Forgot people used some of the free software solutions. Regardless, its not exactly a high pay-wall, more of a pay-curb.
Morrigan LeSante Black Omega Security The OSS 1277	Posted - 2016.02.23 22:23:11 - [105] - Quote stg slate wrote: Rawthorm wrote: stg slate wrote: ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. It's more the totally random way the rules are applied. I'm also perplexed at how something like multi monitors which are effectively a paywalled advantage are ok but free software that does the same thing may or may not get you banned. I think I can get a second monitor cheaper than a subscription for the supporting software for ISBoxer. They don't come cheaper than eve-o preview mate. You know, the one ccp devs use and contribute to. Why should a guy with one monitor and preview be banned yet I can do the same thing on multiscreen and be totally ok? It is inconsistent and most ironically of all unfair.
Rawthorm D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two 87	Posted - 2016.02.23 22:26:44 - [106] - Quote stg slate wrote: Rawthorm wrote: stg slate wrote: ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. It's more the totally random way the rules are applied. I'm also perplexed at how something like multi monitors which are effectively a paywalled advantage are ok but free software that does the same thing may or may not get you banned. I think I can get a second monitor cheaper than a subscription for the supporting software for ISBoxer. EDIT: I Forgot people used some of the free software solutions. Regardless, its not exactly a high pay-wall, more of a pay-curb. A paywall is a paywall, and going beyond 2 monitors requires substantial investment of hardware beyond just the monitors. Of course CCP could always do the graphics cards for plex deal again
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7235	Posted - 2016.02.23 22:28:45 - [107] - Quote CCP Peligro wrote: Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future. Hi I like many others have the serious question about EVE-O preview. This allows you to tile previews of your active EVE windows onto another screen and clicking on the preview swaps you to the relevant window. In the past, comments on the EVE-O Preview thread from you guys has claimed this program to be completely within the rules, however based on this post, having those windows tiles there would allow you to see the status of inactive EVE clients. It certainly speeds up multiboxing, so I can see that being caught up in the whole "unfair advantage" thing as peole not using it would certainly be slower to react. In the same way though, having multiple monitors would have the same effect, as would the "task view" button in windows 10. While you've stated here you will post replies to serious questions, this is a question that has been repeatedly asked and has never received a clear answer. People just want to be sure that if they use EVE-O Preview, they won't be suddenly banned, or if it's not OK to use, then the thread should be marked as such, CCP support of the application should be officially rescinded and the application link should be removed from the forum. At the end of the day, we all just want to know where we stand and be sure that we can play without suddenly being banned because we've become too efficient. You claim to not be against multiboxing, but every time one of these posts comes out, it casts more doubt on people who play in that way. If you just want us to have one account each, just say that. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7235	Posted - 2016.02.23 22:30:50 - [108] - Quote Rawthorm wrote: stg slate wrote: ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. It's more the totally random way the rules are applied. I'm also perplexed at how something like multi monitors which are effectively a paywalled advantage are ok but free software that does the same thing may or may not get you banned. This. The rules are kept purposely vague supposedly to stop "rule lawyering" but all it really means is that legitimate players never know when they are suddenly going to be deemed as playing unfairly just because derps can't figure out how to set hotkeys in the client and spread their alts across multiple monitors. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 5	Posted - 2016.02.23 22:38:15 - [109] - Quote @CCP, I've been playing since 2003. You have 24 hours to reverse your position on overlays/window management or Im taking my $225USD/month (15 accounts x $15) somewhere else. No, I don't mass mine, or plex, I have 15 accounts that all have different roles. i do have 4x miners with the same SP, but w/e. i was fine with no broadcast but I have a lot of accounts and I want to manage them however I chose. if you disagree, then make a better client with better ways to display information. I'm tired of this nonsense ISBoxer debate and I'm tired of you making eve so hard to play that I have to actually decide if it's even worth logging in sometimes. Why can't you just let us play the game we want to play? edit, seriously you make a game that REQUIRES multiple accounts for solo players but you don't offer any support for people who have multiple accounts. seriously, window management was the one thing we had going for us.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7239	Posted - 2016.02.23 22:40:55 - [110] - Quote CCP As an example, this is something that is readily achievable with EVE-O preview. Would as setup like this be against the EULA? The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

A Nony Mouse Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2016.02.23 22:42:44 - [111] - Quote Rawthorm wrote: A paywall is a paywall, and going beyond 2 monitors requires substantial investment of hardware beyond just the monitors. Of course CCP could always do the graphics cards for plex deal again Not that much of an investment in hardware for more screens, and I know Windows 8 or newer will support at least 4 screens: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WQYCKSS
Memphis Baas 1178	Posted - 2016.02.23 22:42:58 - [112] - Quote That is the silliest dev blog I've seen in a while: 1. EVE is about unfair advantage in PVP, market trading, information gathering, every facet of the game portrays combat realistically not fair. 2. You're trying to encourage the development of third-party applications to help with EVE gameplay. AND at the same time DISCOURAGE it. 3. "Aren't you getting an unfair advantage with that program?" "Naw, man, everyone can download and use it, see? Thus it's fair, as everyone has access to it." 4. "Aren't you getting an unfair advantage with that program?" "Hell no, how is it fair that I'm poor and all these people are rich enough to buy skillpoints, or organized enough to band together, or able to pay a subscription," or whatever other justification we can EASILY come up with? 5. "Isn't this illegal?" "No, it's completely legit, I petitioned and they said go ahead and use it." "Oh, ok." CCP you may as well reword your policy to simply say: - At our discretion we will ban players who abuse the EVE game systems, using our definition of abuse. - You may petition to ask if a certain program or use of a program can be considered abuse. - RMT is not allowed and will result in a ban. My suggestions are: - Assign higher priority to suggestions or requests to improve the UI or reduce the boredom of certain in-game activities (because YOU modifying the game is our only option; clearly if we try to do it via 3rd party apps we get banned). - Set up a system for 3rd party apps to get "certified" by you. - Set up a system to warn app developers of features that are against the EULA. - Publish this list of certified apps that are OK to use and won't result in a ban.
A Nony Mouse Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2016.02.23 22:47:24 - [113] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: CCP you may as well reword your policy to simply say: - At our discretion we will ban players who abuse the EVE game systems, using our dynamic and inconsistent definition of abuse. - You may petition to ask if a certain program or use of a program can be considered abuse. - RMT is not allowed and will result in a ban. FTFY
Maria Kishunuba Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 16	Posted - 2016.02.23 22:55:29 - [114] - Quote [sarcasm] So glad the policy don't cover hardware modifications, I really like those other monitors.. Also, can I plex for snitches on CCP FoxFour for enabling and sharing CREST hooks that gives an unfair advantage over people who don't use these hooks? Region based market information, or the ability to change contacts etc. without even logging in. That is some gamebreaking unfair advantages right there. I'll take a plex, thanks :) <3 [/sarcasm]
FearlessLittleToaster GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 87	Posted - 2016.02.23 22:59:09 - [115] - Quote I realize much of the feedback here is about specific programs and in my opinion they raise an excellent point about how vague this 'clarification' is. However, there is a second issue that is up in the air that is probably just as important: Given how vague the rules are, and since the dev blog straight up says that things which are OK today could be bannable in the future, would CCP please commit to giving us some warning if they are going to outlaw a currently acceptable 3rd party app so long as it is not blatant cheating? This was how the ISboxer changes were handed, with plenty of lead time so that people who used it could stop, and I think that really made the change less painful. My biggest fear here is that some reasonably popular and benign program is declared unfair and the auto-banhammer hits hundreds or thousands of players who have been fine for years. From the perspectives of both fairness and not annoying your customers having some kind of policy about lead time makes a lot of sense given how broad you are deliberately leaving the grey area for 3rd party stuff. Also, for serious, please make the policy a bit more specific. I use EFT which gives me a huge advantage over somebody trying to fit using only the in game fitting wheel. I use two monitors so I don't have to tab between them which gives me an advantage over a player using just one. I use EVEMon because it saves me on tedium, whereas a player without that has to log in to check stuff. All three of these things are, by the clarification of the rules above, potentially banable offenses. Hilariously, two out of the three are also actively supported by CCP Devs. And yes, I know I am raising extreme cases but that is the point; you could do a bit better than that.
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33401	Posted - 2016.02.23 23:11:17 - [116] - Quote Is there a long-term plan to make a single client so hard to play that it would be impossible to manage them without the assistance of third party programs? Some type of subversive reversal of the official multiboxing policy that has been lucrative for so long. I ask because you seem to be cocksure about making carriers nearly unplayable even as a solo client. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33401	Posted - 2016.02.23 23:12:38 - [117] - Quote inb4 cloaks require CAPTCHA between x cycles Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Shadoroth KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 11	Posted - 2016.02.23 23:15:21 - [118] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: inb4 cloaks require CAPTCHA between x cycles A Captcha would both: 1. Overlay on the EvE Client 2. Confer an unfair advantage to the person who is at their keyboard, who can type in the captcha. This would at the very least, double the cycle time for the non-afk player. The CCP dev who implements this would be risking a ban.
Don ZOLA Omniscient Order 272	Posted - 2016.02.23 23:15:34 - [119] - Quote Rawthorm wrote: As a loyal customer who's been here since the beginning (Well minus the first few months!) it saddens me to have to say this, but maybe it's time you fine chaps at CCP all start to pull in the same direction? I know CCP has never really been a professional company, and in the old days that was fine. Back then it was a small team that took pride in it's informal interactions with it's customers and as it grew took pride in it's informal way of working, but this approach clearly isn't working at scale, and hasn't been for quite some time. Somewhere along the line it became acceptable for CCP employees to effectively troll paying customers. I wont even go into the unprofessional behavior of some CCP staff towards some of it's customers, but the recent "rule clarification" is just the latest example. I simply don't get how your own staff can use 3rd party software with impunity while leaving the sword of Damocles hanging over the rest of us paying customers heads with the effective catch all ban justification that is the 3rd party software part of the EULA. This is even more mind boggling considering that your own staff develop and promote some of this software behind Dev tags on this very forum. I'm sure I'm not the only one that would REALLY appreciate the last 12 years not ending up a potential waste of time so if you could see your way to presenting a unified clear and professional front to us customers that would be fantastic. If that involves someone vetting your staff's actions and being nominated to be the defacto rule interpreter we can all refer to then so much the better. Very well written post. But one thing you have missed and I cannot blame you, I just figured it out myself. In the light of latest changes and direction CCP is taking, there will be a price list for different 3rd party software. So if you want, you can purchase "licenses". Same like with SP. No one forces you to do it, but you can. If you want to "skip" or save time simply pay. Time is money - be it for training or for any other kind of service related to their gam. "Brilliant" CCP and turning our beloved game into money milking machine. After this, it wont take much time till gold ammo :D P.S. CCP please do not charge for station spin counter. Edit: Am I allowed to use G-Sync on my monitor? :D There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Chalithra Lathar Rhongomiant Legion Industries The Explicit Alliance 33	Posted - 2016.02.23 23:21:40 - [120] - Quote Its almost as if CCP is trying to **** off their loyal fanbase. At any rate, it is working rather well.

Anhenka Infinite Point Northern Army 1518	Posted - 2016.02.23 23:32:58 - [121] - Quote This is absolutely the least clear clarification I have ever seen.
Memphis Baas 1179	Posted - 2016.02.23 23:41:32 - [122] - Quote It's not just isboxer. You have an unfair advantage if you: - use EFT or pyfa - use evemon to plan ahead - use any of the manufacturing or research calculators to find deals and calculate profits - use a website or app to keep track of wormholes and create a dotlan-map the god awful w-space - use a ship identification chart - use voice comms - check people's killboard resume - have 2+ screens instead of just 1 - unfuck your overview
ivan skorzeny Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2016.02.23 23:41:56 - [123] - Quote So i can't use the likes of isoboxer to over lay other clients local, but i can just use windows tiled to have main screen taking up 80% of the screen and two more clients stacked behind just with there local showing? maybe not as tidy but does the same job. Also can the overlay appear in another screen that has no client, or other empty desktop space as then its not an overlay correct?
Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 5	Posted - 2016.02.23 23:45:13 - [124] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: That is the silliest dev blog I've seen in a while: 2. You're trying to encourage the development of third-party applications to help with EVE gameplay. AND at the same time DISCOURAGE it. The way CCP is handling this... I feel very dumb, I used to defend them in the last year and pointed out the advantages of pretty much all the changes.
Chalithra Lathar Rhongomiant Legion Industries The Explicit Alliance 35	Posted - 2016.02.23 23:45:14 - [125] - Quote ivan skorzeny wrote: So i can't use the likes of isoboxer to over lay other clients local, but i can just use windows tiled to have main screen taking up 80% of the screen and two more clients stacked behind just with there local showing? maybe not as tidy but does the same job. Also can the overlay appear in another screen that has no client, or other empty desktop space as then its not an overlay correct? Nobody knows, and they only way they could actually police this is arbitrary at best.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 5765	Posted - 2016.02.23 23:48:23 - [126] - Quote Anhenka wrote: This is absolutely the least clear clarification I have ever seen. If you don't use any third-party tools, you may be okay. If you do, you are probably toast. When in doubt, file a petition asking if X is okay.. If still in doubt, don't do it.
ivan skorzeny Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2016.02.23 23:54:36 - [127] - Quote Tau Cabalander wrote: Anhenka wrote: This is absolutely the least clear clarification I have ever seen. If you don't use any third-party tools, you may be okay. If you do, you are probably toast. When in doubt, file a petition asking if X is okay.. If still in doubt, don't do it. But this is pretty laughable, i have 3 monitors i can reasonably fit 2 or maybe more clients each, so 6+ clients and there local not using any other tools. Yet someone with only one small monitor can't do any extra, am i breaking the rules because i have more monitors?
Emrys Alf Seagull Fleet Alternate Allegiance 3	Posted - 2016.02.23 23:55:41 - [128] - Quote Is this new ban on programs and screen managers going to be the same as removing fleet warps? It seems so.. Seems very knee jerk.. and not though out how far it reaches.. So what was it that caused this desperate attempt to make it fair by banning overlays? Is ISBoxxer Banned? PLH? Where is the line?
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 5765	Posted - 2016.02.23 23:58:06 - [129] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: It's not just isboxer. You have an unfair advantage if you: - use EFT or pyfa - use evemon to plan ahead - use any of the manufacturing or research calculators to find deals and calculate profits - use a website or app to keep track of wormholes and create a dotlan-map the god awful w-space - use a ship identification chart - use voice comms - check people's killboard resume - have 2+ screens instead of just 1 - unfuck your overview I have cache scraping disabled in EVEmon. It is / was enabled by default. CCP have stated something like that cache scraping is technically against the rules, but their enforcement depends on usage, so I err on the side of paranoia by not doing it. I'm not aware of anything API or CREST related that CCP has ever stated as a no-no, beyond overloading those services. If it otherwise can't be done via the supplied client, I personally don't try to get around that.
Soltys Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 91	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:04:07 - [130] - Quote Quote: We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. GÇïGÇïGÇïIn short: Do NOT use any tools/applications/modifications which either modify the client in any way OR provide you any kind of unfair benefit/advantage. What is this hypocrtitical bullshit ? You realize that any 3rd party tool falls into this, as anyone not using them (or not creating analogous stuff themselves) is left behind at total unfair disadvantage. You realise that for example "fast price copy" of Evernus or Elinor margin instantly falls into "you gotta get banned" territory if we used the wording above. Yes I know it's fine - but only because the author(s) actually received human reply (contrary to copy pasted eula bullshit I got, see below) in those tools' respective threads. And the list go on - excel, google tools, isk per hour, dotlan, eveeye maps, eve-central, eft, pyfa, mogul and many, many more. You either use some of them, or you're left far behind as a disadvantaged gimp. Saying those tools are fine in context of that section a total and utter hypocrisy. Make the ******* mind up. And semi-offtopic related as it pissed me off to no end - a good while ago I asked your support people if "fast price copy" of Evernus is ok (I even prepared a video showing how it's used and how lightning fast price updates can be with). Over the span of weeks and replies received from 2 GMs I was left with that part of EULA quoted above, constantly copy pasted right into my face (and of course closed ticked), with no capability or interest to actually give simple binary answer: - yes those tools are fine, or - no those tools are not fine A simple question asked precisely becasue of your shity eula that you can use or bend as you see fit at any time and apply it to literally anything. And while with simple stuff your support works, that was one absolutely pathetic experience. Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl

Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 5765	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:09:34 - [131] - Quote ivan skorzeny wrote: Tau Cabalander wrote: Anhenka wrote: This is absolutely the least clear clarification I have ever seen. If you don't use any third-party tools, you may be okay. If you do, you are probably toast. When in doubt, file a petition asking if X is okay.. If still in doubt, don't do it. But this is pretty laughable, i have 3 monitors i can reasonably fit 2 or maybe more clients each, so 6+ clients and there local not using any other tools. Yet someone with only one small monitor can't do any extra, am i breaking the rules because i have more monitors? Are you using third-party overlays or tools to do it? I sometimes use 4 clients, and as many as 6 clients, in windowed mode spanning two monitors, as enabled by the client and launcher. I'm personally not concerned about my usage, but I cannot state anything unequivocally; only CCP can do that.
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 8	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:10:27 - [132] - Quote Emrys Alf wrote: Is this new ban on programs and screen managers going to be the same as removing fleet warps? It seems so.. Seems very knee jerk.. and not though out how far it reaches.. So what was it that caused this desperate attempt to make it fair by banning overlays? Is ISBoxxer Banned? PLH? Where is the line? isboxxer may not be banned at this point but all of its features are
Archeras Umangiar CRY.NET Nihilists Social Club 24	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:14:20 - [133] - Quote Som Boty wrote: Emrys Alf wrote: Is this new ban on programs and screen managers going to be the same as removing fleet warps? It seems so.. Seems very knee jerk.. and not though out how far it reaches.. So what was it that caused this desperate attempt to make it fair by banning overlays? Is ISBoxxer Banned? PLH? Where is the line? isboxxer may not be banned at this point but all of its features are m8... just say its banned, stop fiddling the line technicly following that OP says, EVERY 3rd party tool is banned that includes but is not limited to: EFT EVEMON Trading Spreadsheets Trading tools and alot more technicly everything, so thats the reason OP is pretty... mhe, to not say bullshit
Uppsy Daisy Perkone Caldari State 643	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:14:22 - [134] - Quote Tau Cabalander wrote: If it otherwise can't be done via the supplied client, I personally don't try to get around that. No EFT/PYFA ?! The in game fitting tools are literally a joke.. Be serious now.
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 8	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:16:07 - [135] - Quote Archeras Umangiar wrote: Som Boty wrote: Emrys Alf wrote: Is this new ban on programs and screen managers going to be the same as removing fleet warps? It seems so.. Seems very knee jerk.. and not though out how far it reaches.. So what was it that caused this desperate attempt to make it fair by banning overlays? Is ISBoxxer Banned? PLH? Where is the line? isboxxer may not be banned at this point but all of its features are m8... just say its banned, stop fiddling the line technicly following that OP says, EVERY 3rd party tool is banned that includes but is not limited to: EFT EVEMON Trading Spreadsheets Trading tools and alot more technicly everything, so thats the reason OP is pretty... mhe, to not say bullshit i didn't disagree..
Avelis Hitman Ave Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance 0	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:31:11 - [136] - Quote What about an overlay that makes a sound anytime a neutral shows up in local ? Doesn't actually affect or interact with the game client; just a program that searches the pixels on the screen for a specific image and makes a sound if image is found ?
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33402	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:34:14 - [137] - Quote This ISBoxer crackdown seems to be progressing at the same rate as monetization. Are you attempting to cut down on accounts per player now that you think you can make more money per account through monetization? Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 5765	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:35:43 - [138] - Quote Uppsy Daisy wrote: Tau Cabalander wrote: If it otherwise can't be done via the supplied client, I personally don't try to get around that. No EFT/PYFA ?! The in game fitting tools are literally a joke.. Be serious now. I don't think I've launched EFT in over three years. I tried PyFA once, but didn't like it. For my current ship, I just bought modules and fit them, and when they didn't fit I bought the cheapest faction and deadspace modules that did fit, and resold the ones that didn't fit. Of course, those tools use API and the SDE supplied by CCP, so I am personally not concerned about them. I also use EVEmon and Aura, as well as DOTLAN.
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 9	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:37:24 - [139] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: This ISBoxer crackdown seems to be progressing at the same rate as monetization. Are you attempting to cut down on accounts per player now that you think you can make more money per account through monetization? this is my thinking, they are working REALLY hard to reduce the number of subscriptions, they must have some kind of other strategy.
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33402	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:38:27 - [140] - Quote Well I'm ready to consolidate ten characters with 1.5 Billion SP into one account if that's the future norm. Let's do this CCP, stop beating around the bush. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)

Koz Katral Hoover Inc. Pandemic Legion 135	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:38:52 - [141] - Quote When there isn't a single post in this thread supporting this overlay change, its probably a good indicator that you dun goofed.
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33402	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:39:14 - [142] - Quote pull yourself from the teat of multiboxers. Be pure like a real video game. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Cerva Dynamite Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:40:47 - [143] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: Well I'm ready to consolidate ten characters with 1.5 Billion SP into one account if that's the future norm. Let's do this CCP, stop beating around the bush. I was just thinking about unsubbing my 7 accounts, but thats not such a bad idea.. consolidate all my SP into 3 accounts. 1 per monitor
Chalithra Lathar Rhongomiant Legion Industries The Explicit Alliance 35	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:42:54 - [144] - Quote Koz Katral wrote: When there isn't a single post in this thread supporting this overlay change, its probably a good indicator that you dun goofed. I think someone from CCP had their ship bombed by a multiboxer and has been on a nerd-rampage-crusade ever since.
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33402	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:43:03 - [145] - Quote No way. It would be one account with an increased character limit. Same revenue, less server load, what's not to like. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33402	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:45:53 - [146] - Quote There's also been an effort to make EVE bigger. Literally more systems with wormholes and Thera / shattered, and then jump fatigue. Limiting players to one account would be another step in the same direction. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33402	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:52:25 - [147] - Quote if players were forced to one client and not be at a disadvantage to multiboxers, you could start making EVE a HMD game. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Cerva Dynamite Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 5	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:53:10 - [148] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: There's also been an effort to make EVE bigger. Literally more systems with wormholes and Thera / shattered, and then jump fatigue. Limiting players to one account would be another step in the same direction. I think this is a big ruse to combat ISK inflation. If they follow through with this, and all the multiboxing miners unsub their alts/get banned the supply of ore is going to plummet. which for a while will make the prices go up, yes, but eventually they will drop as people stop having enough ISK to buy stuff. Eventually the prices of everything will drop and the actual value of ISK will rise. P.S. I'm terribad at economying
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 10	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:54:38 - [149] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: Well I'm ready to consolidate ten characters with 1.5 Billion SP into one account if that's the future norm. Let's do this CCP, stop beating around the bush. I've already started, sold off two toons, 3 more listed. breaking down my WHs now. itll take take me a few days but i've already unsubbed 2 / 15 accounts.
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33402	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:55:20 - [150] - Quote CCP you want EVE to be like Elite and Star Citizen, don't you, and that's what this is about. A five- to ten-year plan to get multiboxing out of the way to make EVE a first-person HMD space game. It's the only thing that makes sense. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)

Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33402	Posted - 2016.02.24 00:57:39 - [151] - Quote I'm unironically quite alright with that. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 5765	Posted - 2016.02.24 01:08:50 - [152] - Quote Daemun Khanid wrote: Love the graph. I like to take responsibility for creative dev blog graphs. First there was CCP Punkturis, whom seems to have since educated other devs: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=879268#post879268 Among her finest achievements, was "Hello Graph" (at bottom): https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/little-improvements-and-a-cake-1/ Look very closely for the watermark. And then there was CCP Masterplan, the overachiever. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3880120#post3880120 I'm still working on CCP Seagull: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2465971#post2465971
Ghenghis Kralj Reikoku Pandemic Legion 125	Posted - 2016.02.24 01:11:47 - [153] - Quote Here is an idea. Does your 3rd party software interfere with client code? If yes, ban. If no, carry on. Is a 3rd party software so popular that players are willing to spend real money in addition to subscription? If so, maybe that's the world telling you that your game needs that feature. I think you have listened well when it comes to the game launcher, but window management, in game tools, and in game window arrangements are lacking enough that people are paying a significant amount to fix that for ya.
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 11	Posted - 2016.02.24 01:22:22 - [154] - Quote Ghenghis Kralj wrote: Here is an idea. Does your 3rd party software interfere with client code? If yes, ban. If no, carry on. Is a 3rd party software so popular that players are willing to spend real money in addition to subscription? If so, maybe that's the world telling you that your game needs that feature. I think you have listened well when it comes to the game launcher, but window management, in game tools, and in game window arrangements are lacking enough that people are paying a significant amount to fix that for ya. i pay $50/year for isboxxer, it's not a lot of money in my opinion. certainly not inaccessible. contrary to some of the alliance tools which aren't accessible to the majority of the player base. I don't know what CCP is thinking, when they have people being doxxed and third party apps like tripwire being backdoored to give access to all of the scanned sigs in the universe, but noooooo. lets target window management which is totally accessible, fair, and needed by everyone.
Anhenka Infinite Point Northern Army 1518	Posted - 2016.02.24 01:23:47 - [155] - Quote Cerva Dynamite wrote: Rain6637 wrote: There's also been an effort to make EVE bigger. Literally more systems with wormholes and Thera / shattered, and then jump fatigue. Limiting players to one account would be another step in the same direction. I think this is a big ruse to combat ISK inflation. If they follow through with this, and all the multiboxing miners unsub their alts/get banned the supply of ore is going to plummet. which for a while will make the prices go up, yes, but eventually they will drop as people stop having enough ISK to buy stuff. Eventually the prices of everything will drop and the actual value of ISK will rise. P.S. I'm terribad at economying As ship prices goes up, the isk being injected into the economy through insurance payouts increases, resulting in an increase in the amount of isk being generated. So sorry, you got it backwards. Miners might quit, and ore prices might rise, but ever so slightly, so will isk inflation.
Emrys Alf Seagull Fleet Alternate Allegiance 3	Posted - 2016.02.24 01:55:34 - [156] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: Well I'm ready to consolidate ten characters with 1.5 Billion SP into one account if that's the future norm. Let's do this CCP, stop beating around the bush. Ah so that is what this is.. Get us all now to buy these extractors and kill off our accounts... But I pay for my accounts with $ so it would be better to keep me paying..
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33402	Posted - 2016.02.24 02:07:27 - [157] - Quote Let's just do some napkin math. A lot of us who are posting in these threads have been around way too long. Per account we've paid what, $150 / year. The average player sticks around for... can we agree on 4 years? 5 perhaps. Each player has an average of 1.5, maybe 2 accounts. So the average player, by revenue, looks like ($150)(2)(4.5) = $1,350 With Injectors, and who knows what else will be sold for AUR, how fast do you think it will take the latest generation of new players to reach that mark. Let's assume they have just one account. $150 for the subscription plus one, two six-packs of PLEX per year is more than enough for new single-account players to yield as much as we did, even with our multiple accounts. So with monetization, yeah, EVE can afford to cut ties with multiboxers. When SP reserves run out to fill Injectors, they can just start selling accelerated SP or change SP in some way to sell it outright. Which, already, to you and me is already happening when characters are able to increase their SP instantly. The SP was generated by someone with hard subscription time, but does that really matter. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Memphis Baas 1185	Posted - 2016.02.24 02:25:55 - [158] - Quote Well, instead of this "no modifying this EVE client that we have no interest in improving" business, they could get with the times and: - create an interface for the client to provide restricted information and basic window controls to plug-ins - have a system for the certification / approval of 3rd party plug-ins, so people can create in-game tools - monetize the access to client plug-ins (it's like fitting a ship, CCP: pay to unlock 5 slots for alliance plugins, 4 slots for corp plugins, 6 slots for general/public plugins, etc.). I think this belongs in the "horrible ideas" thread, but oh well... "horrible dev blog" thread close enough.
Sir SmashAlot The League of Extraordinary Opportunists Intergalactic Conservation Movement 193	Posted - 2016.02.24 02:28:59 - [159] - Quote I am not at the state of brinkmanship like some others. I find the play style that keeps me in the game is being slowly forced out. We can debate specifics about this tool here and this function there, it would appear that CCP sees many account power users as a cost, rather a benefit to the greater community. Question for CCP: Did subscriptions go up after input broadcasting was banned? Are subscriptions expected to go up after 3rd party overlay tools are banned? Maybe CCP has another goal in mind, but in my view unless a change is expected to increase active subscriptions, it is likely not a good one. It is their game and they can make whatever rules they want; however, I feel longer term I will unsubscribe verses consolidate. Too many years spent on a particular vision. Adapt or die as they say.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman CK-0FF Bad Intention 15	Posted - 2016.02.24 03:01:25 - [160] - Quote This is the last straw. I love Eve. I really do, but I can't justify continuing to support a game where the developers don't care what players want until there's a giant wave of outrage over a recent change. This policy is a perfect example of that: so vague no one can tell if they're breaking the rules or not, and heavily biased against a group of people who are just trying to play the game and not hurting anyone. First insulting prices on skill injectors, then trying to push the new camera on us before it was working, then much-hated D-Scan changes no one asked for or wanted, now a vague policy that makes it sound like anything we do could get us banned. Your move, CCP. I've unsubbed all 4 of my accounts and you have about 50 days to make it seem like you actually care about players or I'm gone. Vote with your wallet, people!

Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33403	Posted - 2016.02.24 03:34:00 - [161] - Quote Sir SmashAlot wrote: Question for CCP: Did subscriptions go up after input broadcasting was banned? Are subscriptions expected to go up after 3rd party overlay tools are banned? before injectors there was only a flat reduction in revenue resulting from reduced player count. That's not the case anymore. You can have fewer subscribers but also more revenue. That's the benefit of monetization. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33403	Posted - 2016.02.24 03:45:04 - [162] - Quote The revenue pattern of post-injector players will be very different. Say if you were a new player and you know all you wanted was a high sec missioning Vargur with perfect supports, you could inject your way to that immediately for what, $750, $800? People pay that nowadays. I know back when I started, I would have gone for that. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33403	Posted - 2016.02.24 03:47:07 - [163] - Quote As for the amnesty bit, it might be a precursor to Iwantisk getting headshot. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Kblackjack54 Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance 133	Posted - 2016.02.24 05:05:34 - [164] - Quote Papa Django wrote: CCP Peligro wrote: Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future. I use isboxer each time i play to get vision on my 4 accounts and to be able to switch easily between them. Vision help me to see when a warp is done or about to be done, if a ship come at a gate, where my mining cycle are, etc ... It help me a lot. I fear that it is what you are calling an unfair advantage, which would simply doom my user experience. Not wishing to reopen the taps on the ISBOXER flame thrower again but this post is the first I have seen in the whole of the EULA debate that encapsulates the issue for players,, That of User experience, That ethereal experience obtained while playing such on line games as Eve. The truth here is that the EULA is no longer fit for the purpose it was written for in many major areas, as such CCP has always disguised this by telling the players, 'Everything you need to know is in the terms of the EULA', and replying to question regarding it obvious grey areas by players in a manner such as 'Oh you don't understand the EULA, that is OK we will interpret it for you, your obviously not intelligent enough to get were we are coming from'. while at the same time mashing the ban button daily. What I have never understood in the ISBOXER and many other utilities debate is why CCP is so shocked to find that people who play an innovative game like Eve are themselves not going to be innovative in the way they play it. ISBOXER itself showed players however many 'Seperate' screens as they chose to operate, the trough of subscriptions which at one time CCP was happy to snuffle in without question for years, But it was only when they realised that players flying ships other than mining vessels were gaining a unfair advantage like that of bomber fleets in the area of player interaction did they suddenly jump up and ban the thing outright, But even there they were shifty about what was said and never really clarified it outright, Now who's not playing fair CCP. With the current debate regarding P2W in game raging on in other threads it does beg the question as to why, given the desire of players to use these innovative products coupled with CCP desire to make Eve produce better profits margins, CCP do not embrace the ideas and code there own versions of ISBOXER that could be rented by players on a monthly basis, That way they themselves could control the coding as to how they worked and what ships they could be used upon, Banning players that use multiple screens, One monitor or not really is not going to make this debate ever go away in my view. CCP needs to be as innovative as the players that sub Eve, You built it as a sandbox don't complain when players take your own hype and use it to the best of there ability.
Sumo Sabezan SniggWaffe WAFFLES. 6	Posted - 2016.02.24 05:16:28 - [165] - Quote I have several problems with this blog. The first being the extreme vagueness. It states that we are not allowed to use 3rd party tools that would give us an advantage over other players that don't use it. However that is the nature of 3rd party tools. They wouldn't be used if they didn't give an advantage. There are plenty of free programs, that any player can download. If they choose not to, or don't know about it that is their problem not mine. Second, the overlay banning is just ridiculous. All this now encourages is for players who made use of this to go out and buy more monitors so that they don't have to have cut pieces out / overlay others on top. This makes literally 0 sense and is a step in the wrong direction. The broadcasting changes were at least understandable as those had no way to really be replicated outside of 3rd party tools, but overlays, etc do. I have a lot of accounts, I'm not going to hide that but these changes could potentially mean unsubbing a lot of them as they are my main source of isk income and IRL $$ is tight at the moment. You guys did great with changing your position on FAX skill books, I hope you do the same here as well.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7243	Posted - 2016.02.24 05:55:29 - [166] - Quote Sumo Sabezan wrote: Second, the overlay banning is just ridiculous. All this now encourages is for players who made use of this to go out and buy more monitors so that they don't have to have cut pieces out / overlay others on top. This makes literally 0 sense and is a step in the wrong direction. There's also the bit where they point out they have no idea what the client actually looks like, so they in fact won;t be able to tell the difference between a cut up client and someone with plenty of screen real estate and windowed clients, so you're pretty much using multiple monitors at your own risk here. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 13	Posted - 2016.02.24 06:00:34 - [167] - Quote CCP, just **** off already. You got broadcasting, that was a good one. But let us manage our windows however we choose.
Daugan Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies. 14	Posted - 2016.02.24 06:23:14 - [168] - Quote Please reconsider these rather poorly worded, and arguably counter productive changes. Not only are pretty solid PVP aspects of Eve heavily harmed with this change, but also (a stupid amount) of PVE options are getting hit in the head with this one. It's been nothing but sticks lately CCP, in pretty much every play style I enjoy.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6946	Posted - 2016.02.24 06:54:22 - [169] - Quote Som Boty wrote: CCP, just ** off already. You got broadcasting, that was a good one. But let us manage our windows however we choose. Can't get off the slippery slope once we're rollin' Lucas Kell wrote: Sumo Sabezan wrote: Second, the overlay banning is just ridiculous. All this now encourages is for players who made use of this to go out and buy more monitors so that they don't have to have cut pieces out / overlay others on top. This makes literally 0 sense and is a step in the wrong direction. There's also the bit where they point out they have no idea what the client actually looks like, so they in fact won;t be able to tell the difference between a cut up client and someone with plenty of screen real estate and windowed clients, so you're pretty much using multiple monitors at your own risk here. Oh dear... as people noted, multiple monitors is an unfair advantage~ it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players** http://eveboard.com/ranks
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33405	Posted - 2016.02.24 07:08:17 - [170] - Quote All that has to happen is an increased characters-per-account limit. The lowest limit In a game I play other than EVE is Diablo 3, and that allows 12 characters. The rest of the mechanics are there. Multiple Pilot Training Certificates, in particular. Injectors too. If I hear about the character limit being raised, I'm considering it a confirmation. EVE will go single-account-per-player. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)

Alhira Katserna Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 2122	Posted - 2016.02.24 08:19:46 - [171] - Quote So what about people who have multiple accounts but only 1 monitor? For example a 3x miner and 1x Orca setup where each window is sized to around 1600x900 and arrange so that in each corner shows a part of one client to easier click on them than using the windows preview. Will they have to fear to get banned because of this behaviour? Or the pvper who has set 2 accounts on one monitor (1 scout and 1 pvper) and is using this to show the Overview on the scout during still being active on his pvp toon? Will he also have to fear to get banned?
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7245	Posted - 2016.02.24 08:28:25 - [172] - Quote Alhira Katserna wrote: So what about people who have multiple accounts but only 1 monitor? For example a 3x miner and 1x Orca setup where each window is sized to around 1600x900 and arrange so that in each corner shows a part of one client to easier click on them than using the windows preview. Will they have to fear to get banned because of this behaviour? Or the pvper who has set 2 accounts on one monitor (1 scout and 1 pvper) and is using this to show the Overview on the scout during still being active on his pvp toon? Will he also have to fear to get banned? Yep, full screen only. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Proxay Stimulus Rote Kapelle 38	Posted - 2016.02.24 08:37:07 - [173] - Quote Jesus you lot need to all get over yourselves. ISBOXER costs money, and is a 3rd party application that they deem to be providing an advantage to players utilising it. They want to ensure a level playing field for ALL players of EVE, irrespective of Financial situation. The fact that a utility can be purchased that provides an advantage to a muti-boxing player is an issue they want to address, in their game. I personally don't use ISBOXER, and I have multiple accounts - sometimes running 2+ at a time. I tab between windows because it works fine and I can handle it. They never intended for their game to be played 10 accounts at a time by some autistic sperglord "solopvping" with his 10 vexors. It's not fair on me, and many more players to have to contend with people paying for an advantage that isn't available without a monetary subscription to the software. If this is a huge issue for you, and you're not happy, then get lost. Just because this thread is full of people whining as incessantly as they are, doesn't mean this isn't the right call. Loading signature...
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 874	Posted - 2016.02.24 08:38:09 - [174] - Quote Alhira Katserna wrote: So what about people who have multiple accounts but only 1 monitor? For example a 3x miner and 1x Orca setup where each window is sized to around 1600x900 and arrange so that in each corner shows a part of one client to easier click on them than using the windows preview. Will they have to fear to get banned because of this behaviour? Or the pvper who has set 2 accounts on one monitor (1 scout and 1 pvper) and is using this to show the Overview on the scout during still being active on his pvp toon? Will he also have to fear to get banned? The miner is fine. The pvp example, it depends. Is the pvp using a 3rd-party program to 'cut out' the overview of a client and overlaying it on top of another client? Thats breaking the EULA. If the clients are both windowed and resized and offset so the scout clients overview is visable, whilst the pvp client is on top and being played. That is fine according to the EULA and the devblog.
Proxay Stimulus Rote Kapelle 38	Posted - 2016.02.24 08:39:35 - [175] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Yep, full screen only. Can you highlight in a screenshot a part of the devblog that explicitly said you can't tile or layout the windows around your desktop however the damn hell you want. Loading signature...
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33405	Posted - 2016.02.24 08:39:52 - [176] - Quote For the record, i'm amused. This is my prediction for EVE's 10-year plan: boiling frogs Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Luscius Uta Anomalous Existence Low-Class 200	Posted - 2016.02.24 08:42:10 - [177] - Quote Seems like a good time to be a scammer. Scam some people, send CCP an e-mail claiming that you were really buying ISK from them, and see them getting banned. Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 5	Posted - 2016.02.24 08:45:21 - [178] - Quote Proxay wrote: Jesus you lot need to all get over yourselves. ISBOXER costs money, and is a 3rd party application that they deem to be providing an advantage to players utilising it. They want to ensure a level playing field for ALL players of EVE, irrespective of Financial situation. The fact that a utility can be purchased that provides an advantage to a muti-boxing player is an issue they want to address, in their game. I personally don't use ISBOXER, and I have multiple accounts - sometimes running 2+ at a time. I tab between windows because it works fine and I can handle it. They never intended for their game to be played 10 accounts at a time by some autistic sperglord "solopvping" with his 10 vexors. It's not fair on me, and many more players to have to contend with people paying for an advantage that isn't available without a monetary subscription to the software. If this is a huge issue for you, and you're not happy, then get lost. Just because this thread is full of people whining as incessantly as they are, doesn't mean this isn't the right call. Its not just isboxer. Read. Its pretty much every utility out there. Go back to Rote inactivity with fever dreams of truesolo.
Uppsy Daisy Perkone Caldari State 643	Posted - 2016.02.24 08:50:00 - [179] - Quote Ghenghis Kralj wrote: Here is an idea. Does your 3rd party software interfere with client code? If yes, ban. If no, carry on. Is a 3rd party software so popular that players are willing to spend real money in addition to subscription? If so, maybe that's the world telling you that your game needs that feature. I think you have listened well when it comes to the game launcher, but window management, in game tools, and in game window arrangements are lacking enough that people are paying a significant amount to fix that for ya. Thumbs up for the first person to make a genuine suggestion. This is the kind of additional detail that would make it easier for the player base to know if they are breaking the rules. 'Unfair advantage' is just too vague.
Vincent Deadus 24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2016.02.24 08:51:34 - [180] - Quote Proxay wrote: Jesus you lot need to all get over yourselves. ISBOXER costs money, and is a 3rd party application that they deem to be providing an advantage to players utilising it. They want to ensure a level playing field for ALL players of EVE, irrespective of Financial situation. The fact that a utility can be purchased that provides an advantage to a muti-boxing player is an issue they want to address, in their game. I personally don't use ISBOXER, and I have multiple accounts - sometimes running 2+ at a time. I tab between windows because it works fine and I can handle it. They never intended for their game to be played 10 accounts at a time by some autistic sperglord "solopvping" with his 10 vexors. It's not fair on me, and many more players to have to contend with people paying for an advantage that isn't available without a monetary subscription to the software. If this is a huge issue for you, and you're not happy, then get lost. Just because this thread is full of people whining as incessantly as they are, doesn't mean this isn't the right call. So if I use the windows managment of ISBOXER (i do) I'm a bad man. If I use EVE-O (which is free) I'm a bad man. If I use 4 monitors thats ok. Seriously, did you read that dev blog or did you just smash your head against the keyboard??

Proxay Stimulus Rote Kapelle 38	Posted - 2016.02.24 08:51:45 - [181] - Quote Koenig Yazria wrote: Its not just isboxer. Read. Its pretty much every utility out there, even Eve-preview. Go back to Rote inactivity with fever dreams of truesolo. I read the blog, every word of it. It's not "EVERY" utility out there. Personally I haven't used EVE-Preview, Pirate's Little Helper, Vision, ISBoxer and many more ever. Activity is fine, thanks: https://zkillboard.com/character/781584111/ Got anything useful to say, or do you just want to sit there using hyperbole to try to discredit my point? Loading signature...
Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 6	Posted - 2016.02.24 08:54:37 - [182] - Quote Proxay wrote: I read the blog, every word of it. It's not "EVERY" utility out there. Personally I haven't used EVE-Preview, Pirate's Little Helper, Vision, ISBoxer and many more ever. Activity is fine, thanks: https://zkillboard.com/character/781584111/ Got anything useful to say, or do you just want to sit there using hyperbole to try to discredit my point? You obviously didn't read the whole thread until now. This is discrediting your point already. The rest was just being edgy.
Proxay Stimulus Rote Kapelle 38	Posted - 2016.02.24 08:55:53 - [183] - Quote Vincent Deadus wrote: So if I use the windows managment of ISBOXER (i do) I'm a bad man. If I use EVE-O (which is free) I'm a bad man. If I use 4 monitors thats ok. Seriously, did you read that dev blog or did you just smash your head against the keyboard?? Maybe I play a different game to you - but I'm out there every day hunting people trying to earn my way as a honest, humble disciple of poitot. There are systems upon systems in EVE where people grind out ISK in anoms, sigs and belts constantly. Typically running several characters at once, and using 3rd Party Tools to provide audible alerts when a hostile (me) comes along to gank/kill/fight whoever I can. These are advantages I cannot compete with. I do not make isk in this way, if I want isk, I run incursions. I do market stuff, I kill people and re-sell whatever falls off their wreck. I don't have the motivation to join a nullsec block, shell out RL $$$$ for additional software solutions and print money all day without concern. More than ISK - I can't kill them. It's risk-free to run several accounts in parallel without any concern because you can use these tools they're reviewing to gain this advantage, and to protect yourself from ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME. EVE is meant to be hard. Embrace the challenge, friend. Loading signature...
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7249	Posted - 2016.02.24 08:57:05 - [184] - Quote Proxay wrote: Jesus you lot need to all get over yourselves. ISBOXER costs money, and is a 3rd party application that they deem to be providing an advantage to players utilising it. They want to ensure a level playing field for ALL players of EVE, irrespective of Financial situation. Except your entire point is moot since most people here aren't talking about ISBoxer. In fact the biggest point is around EVE-O preview which is a completely free program that allows you to do very similar things. Try reading the thread before jumping in foaming at the mouth, genius. Proxay wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: Yep, full screen only. Can you highlight in a screenshot a part of the devblog that explicitly said you can't tile or layout the windows around your desktop however the damn hell you want. Sure. If you tile your windows in such a way that you can see the overview of an inactive window this would be functionally no different from the above, thus be an unfair advantage and be bannable. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Vincent Deadus 24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2016.02.24 09:01:19 - [185] - Quote Proxay wrote: I don't have the motivation to join a nullsec block, shell out RL $$$$ for additional software solutions and print money all day without concern. More than ISK - I can't kill them. It's risk-free to run several accounts in parallel without any concern because you can use these tools they're reviewing to gain this advantage, and to protect yourself from ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME. EVE is meant to be hard. Embrace the challenge, friend. Your missing my point, paying $$$ for ISBOXER is "apparently" now bad, but CCP have no problem with multiple monitors. So sure it stops me mining with 4 clients on 1 screen, but if I go and shell out $$$ for more screens i'm good to go. How does that level the playing field for you?
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 874	Posted - 2016.02.24 09:03:25 - [186] - Quote Koenig Yazria wrote: You obviously didn't read the whole thread until now. This is discrediting your point already. The rest was just being edgy. This thread is just full of people who haven't read the devblog and are presuming its saying something it isn't. Playing multiple clients is fine, playing those clients in windowed mode is fine. Using a 3rd-party program to position those windows is fine. Whats not ok is using 3rd-party programs to overlay elements of one client on top of another client.
Morrigan LeSante Black Omega Security The OSS 1280	Posted - 2016.02.24 09:04:49 - [187] - Quote Proxay wrote: It's not fair on me, and many more players to have to contend with people paying for an advantage that isn't available without a monetary subscription to the software. If this is a huge issue for you, and you're not happy, then get lost. Yet I have 3 monitors and a laptop (which I forgot about) thus could quite happily and realistically run 7ish accounts with no software. Why do you hate on the poor people who cannot afford that luxury?
Proxay Stimulus Rote Kapelle 38	Posted - 2016.02.24 09:04:58 - [188] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: If you tile your windows in such a way that you can see the overview of an inactive window this would be functionally no different from the above, thus be an unfair advantage and be bannable. I don't get how this isn't explicitly clear - you even highlighted it. I get what they mean, I'll reword it and see if it ticks with you. CCP is saying that if you can see the overview from other eve clients, on another eve client, you are cheating the game. You can have two clients open at the same time, arranged on your desktop however you'd like. But an element on one client can't be accessible without switching focus to that client in your desktop OS. This is to say, if you interact with a secondary or tertiary client that it should come to the front of your focus and fully replace the other clients you have open at the same time. Their issue is specifically when you can interact with secondary, tertiary, and other clients in a way where they are not brought forward into focus, and you can manage several clients in a way other players cannot, without crossing a financial barrier. Loading signature...
Proxay Stimulus Rote Kapelle 39	Posted - 2016.02.24 09:06:12 - [189] - Quote Vincent Deadus wrote: Your missing my point, paying $$$ for ISBOXER is "apparently" now bad, but CCP have no problem with multiple monitors. So sure it stops me mining with 4 clients on 1 screen, but if I go and shell out $$$ for more screens i'm good to go. How does that level the playing field for you? Proxay wrote: CCP is saying that if you can see the overview from other eve clients, on another eve client, you are cheating the game. You can have two clients open at the same time, arranged on your desktop however you'd like. But an element on one client can't be accessible without switching focus to that client in your desktop OS. This is to say, if you interact with a secondary or tertiary client that it should come to the front of your focus and fully replace the other clients you have open at the same time. Their issue is specifically when you can interact with secondary, tertiary, and other clients in a way where they are not brought forward into focus, and you can manage several clients in a way other players cannot, without crossing a financial barrier. Loading signature...
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2154	Posted - 2016.02.24 09:06:48 - [190] - Quote [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flAkPEeUhHY[/url] The wishlist is pretty much complete...

Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 6	Posted - 2016.02.24 09:06:58 - [191] - Quote Proxay wrote: Vincent Deadus wrote: So if I use the windows managment of ISBOXER (i do) I'm a bad man. If I use EVE-O (which is free) I'm a bad man. If I use 4 monitors thats ok. Seriously, did you read that dev blog or did you just smash your head against the keyboard?? Maybe I play a different game to you - but I'm out there every day hunting people trying to earn my way as a honest, humble disciple of poitot. There are systems upon systems in EVE where people grind out ISK in anoms, sigs and belts constantly. Typically running several characters at once, and using 3rd Party Tools to provide audible alerts when a hostile (me) comes along to gank/kill/fight whoever I can. These are advantages I cannot compete with. I do not make isk in this way, if I want isk, I run incursions. I do market stuff, I kill people and re-sell whatever falls off their wreck. I don't have the motivation to join a nullsec block, shell out RL $$$$ for additional software solutions and print money all day without concern. More than ISK - I can't kill them. It's risk-free to run several accounts in parallel without any concern because you can use these tools they're reviewing to gain this advantage, and to protect yourself from ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME. EVE is meant to be hard. Embrace the challenge, friend. Dude, I used to make all my isk by camping a single gate 365 days of a year and sell loot. Don't tell me that this is a mega-bear only thing. I play the game across 10 accounts, with different roles from HK to simple cynoalts, to dictors, main-pvp, recon, etc. You still did not read the thread. Just do us the favor. Its not only about the for-pay isboxer, its also about a couple of free application that do the same thing. And others that provide a quality of life improvement. Also, the wording is extremely poor as "unfair advantage" over someone not using it can be extended easily to stuff like Dotlan and the likes.
Morrigan LeSante Black Omega Security The OSS 1280	Posted - 2016.02.24 09:07:28 - [192] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Koenig Yazria wrote: You obviously didn't read the whole thread until now. This is discrediting your point already. The rest was just being edgy. This thread is just full of people who haven't read the devblog and are presuming its saying something it isn't. Playing multiple clients is fine, playing those clients in windowed mode is fine. Using a 3rd-party program to position those windows is fine. Whats not ok is using 3rd-party programs to overlay elements of one client on top of another client. Are you sure about that mate? Quote: We donGÇÖt know all the tools out there and what they do exactly - and frankly we donGÇÖt care. If you get banned, then this is because the results of what you did and how you potentially gained from it manifested in our server-side logs. In other words you better not even LOOK fishy and we don't care how. It is far from unreasonable for people to be concerned about this ESPECIALLY when it's a big trumpeted announcement like this. "Hey guys, we'd like to clarify some things" and then go on to clarify NOTHING oh and "oh and by the way we don't care why you might be flagged, if you're flagged that's a commissaring".
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2154	Posted - 2016.02.24 09:07:34 - [193] - Quote https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flAkPEeUhHY The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Proxay Stimulus Rote Kapelle 39	Posted - 2016.02.24 09:08:45 - [194] - Quote Koenig Yazria wrote: Its not only about the for-pay isboxer, its also about a couple of free application that do the same thing. You're right, the financial barrier isn't really the main thing here. They're concerned that you're able to utilise multiple game clients while only have one game client in focus. They want you to be switching clients to manage those clients. That's their dev blog focus. Loading signature...
Gradur Dohr Carpe Noctem. Pandemic Legion 53	Posted - 2016.02.24 09:10:36 - [195] - Quote you guys are killing eve, congrats
Morrigan LeSante Black Omega Security The OSS 1280	Posted - 2016.02.24 09:10:55 - [196] - Quote Proxay wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: If you tile your windows in such a way that you can see the overview of an inactive window this would be functionally no different from the above, thus be an unfair advantage and be bannable. I don't get how this isn't explicitly clear - you even highlighted it. I get what they mean, I'll reword it and see if it ticks with you. CCP is saying that if you can see the overview from other eve clients, on another eve client, you are cheating the game. You can have two clients open at the same time, arranged on your desktop however you'd like. But an element on one client can't be accessible without switching focus to that client in your desktop OS. This is to say, if you interact with a secondary or tertiary client that it should come to the front of your focus and fully replace the other clients you have open at the same time. Their issue is specifically when you can interact with secondary, tertiary, and other clients in a way where they are not brought forward into focus, and you can manage several clients in a way other players cannot, without crossing a financial barrier. BZZZZZZZZT fail. Quote: For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows I can get real time intel from secondary, tertiary or more monitors. From those game instances. Without switching windows. Their very definition is confused or they are ALSO banning multiple monitors. Remember, no fucks are given about why you flag, only that you do.
Hamar Halltyr Nemesis Logistics Nemesis Enterprises. 0	Posted - 2016.02.24 12:26:32 - [197] - Quote Because i don-¦t have the time to read so much here i got one question. Tell me if im right or not . it is not okay to have an overlay on top of your main client because of real time information! but what if i have a overlay on a sceondary screen with more than 1 account is that against your ruleing ccp or not
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 874	Posted - 2016.02.24 12:32:49 - [198] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Koenig Yazria wrote: You obviously didn't read the whole thread until now. This is discrediting your point already. The rest was just being edgy. This thread is just full of people who haven't read the devblog and are presuming its saying something it isn't. Playing multiple clients is fine, playing those clients in windowed mode is fine. Using a 3rd-party program to position those windows is fine. Whats not ok is using 3rd-party programs to overlay elements of one client on top of another client. Are you sure about that mate? Quote: We donGÇÖt know all the tools out there and what they do exactly - and frankly we donGÇÖt care. If you get banned, then this is because the results of what you did and how you potentially gained from it manifested in our server-side logs. In other words you better not even LOOK fishy and we don't care how. It is far from unreasonable for people to be concerned about this ESPECIALLY when it's a big trumpeted announcement like this. "Hey guys, we'd like to clarify some things" and then go on to clarify NOTHING oh and "oh and by the way we don't care why you might be flagged, if you're flagged that's a commissaring". Yes. I'm sure. The Eve client allows you to launch multiple instances of it. (excluding trials) The Eve client alows you to run in windowed mode. The Eve client allows you to change the resolution the client is displayed in. If CCP wanted people to stop, they would remove those options from the Eve client/launcher. Most 3rd-party programs don't actually break the EULA, its what people do with those programs that means the player has broken the EULA. So CCP are quite sensible in saying they don't care which program(/tool)s are being used, its what people are doing with them that concerns them. If people are incapable of working out if they are breaking the EULA or not, then those people should stop using 3rd party programs whilst playing Eve.
Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 9	Posted - 2016.02.24 12:49:56 - [199] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: If CCP wanted people to stop, they would remove those options from the Eve client/launcher. Most 3rd-party programs don't actually break the EULA, its what people do with those programs that means the player has broken the EULA. So CCP are quite sensible in saying they don't care which program(/tool)s are being used, its what people are doing with them that concerns them. If people are incapable of working out if they are breaking the EULA or not, then those people should stop using 3rd party programs whilst playing Eve. Sorry, that reasoning does not work. "they would" do x is not what CCP has done for years. Many things have been implicit. Also, CCP has changed their stance pretty radically before. Citing the EULA does not add anything useful as it is intentionally vague and this devpost has made it even more unclear. Another simple fact is that this game is completely unplayable without 3rd party programs and applications. In fact it relies heavily on them existing.
Asinae Antaelis 12	Posted - 2016.02.24 12:55:55 - [200] - Quote The contradiction here is that they design the game one way -multi account/multi client encouraged (-> one physical player IRL, multiple avatar simultaneously IG) -borderless windows and now they are roughly saying "dont use those features, it can create unfair advantages!" And they seems to have not follow Operating Systems/computer evolution that now allow multiple clients display at the same time without additionnal software... And they are also encouraging the community to use THEIR own API to create , not plugin to the game that everyone one can access -for example by an official IG listing of whats available) but 3rd party tools that sometimes you have to pay isk to have acces to, or be part of a certains corp . Maybe CCP should clearly redesign the base concept of the game before redacting their EULA

Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 874	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:02:46 - [201] - Quote Koenig Yazria wrote: Sorry, that reasoning does not work. There is no need for reasoning. CCP is not going to ban people for using the ingame graphical options. Remember CCP don't care what programs/tools you use its what you use them for, so using a 3rd-party program to mange the same options available in the ingame options is not an issue. Go back a read what the devblog/EULA/ToS actually says.
Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 10	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:03:27 - [202] - Quote Asinae Antaelis wrote: The contradiction here is that they design the game one way -multi account/multi client encouraged (-> one physical player IRL, multiple avatar simultaneously IG) -borderless windows and now they are roughly saying "dont use those features, it can create unfair advantages!" And they seems to have not follow Operating Systems/computer evolution that now allow multiple clients display at the same time without additionnal software... And they are also encouraging the community to use THEIR own API to create , not plugin to the game that everyone one can access -for example by an official IG listing of whats available) but 3rd party tools that sometimes you have to pay isk to have acces to, or be part of a certains corp . Maybe CCP should clearly redesign the base concept of the game before redacting their EULA Pretty much this. Thing though is that I'm not eager at all to develop something that in 6 months may be banned because of a changed stance.
Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 10	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:05:42 - [203] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Koenig Yazria wrote: Sorry, that reasoning does not work. There is no need for reasoning. CCP is not going to ban people for using the ingame graphical options. Remember CCP don't care what programs/tools you use its what you use them for, so using a 3rd-party program to mange the same options available in the ingame options is not an issue. Go back a read what the devblog/EULA/ToS actually says. Are you playing the game exclusively with what comes "out of the box", no EFT, no Dotlan, no Siggy, etc ?
Serious Desire Annoyance. Darwinism. 14	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:07:11 - [204] - Quote Seriously??? You have this big article on security and we still can't use a special character in our passwords? So when will EveOnline come into the 21st century and start allowing this.... Pretty frick'n lame tbh
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman CK-0FF Bad Intention 15	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:07:19 - [205] - Quote Edit: I derped and said something that made no sense.
Morrigan LeSante Black Omega Security The OSS 1284	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:07:48 - [206] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Koenig Yazria wrote: Sorry, that reasoning does not work. There is no need for reasoning. CCP is not going to ban people for using the ingame graphical options. Remember CCP don't care what programs/tools you use its what you use them for, so using a 3rd-party program to mange the same options available in the ingame options is not an issue. Go back a read what the devblog/EULA/ToS actually says. Actually they don't care what flags you. Given a few monitors could easily lead to the same behaviours as the likes of eve-o preview what chance to you have?
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 874	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:11:38 - [207] - Quote Koenig Yazria wrote: [quote=Archibald Thistlewaite III] Are you playing the game exclusively with what comes "out of the box", no EFT, no Dotlan, no Siggy, etc ? No, I used EFT, Evemon(with cache scrapper turned off), Dotlan, Isboxer and Eve-preview fairly often. I'll be getting rid of Isboxer soon and I have no worries because I do not use them to break the EULA. What difference does what 3rd-party programs I use make to anything?
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7251	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:17:24 - [208] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Yes. I'm sure. The Eve client allows you to launch multiple instances of it. (excluding trials) The Eve client alows you to run in windowed mode. The Eve client allows you to change the resolution the client is displayed in. If CCP wanted people to stop, they would remove those options from the Eve client/launcher. Most 3rd-party programs don't actually break the EULA, its what people do with those programs that means the player has broken the EULA. So CCP are quite sensible in saying they don't care which program(/tool)s are being used, its what people are doing with them that concerns them. If people are incapable of working out if they are breaking the EULA or not, then those people should stop using 3rd party programs whilst playing Eve. OK consider this. Would you agree that using something like ISBoxer to move your overview on the same screen as your active client so you can see it while it's inactive is against the EULA? The answer to this should be "yes" since that's explicitly written on the dev blog. So why then would you think it's not against the EULA to place your active client over your inactive client with the inactive clients overview sticking out so you can see it while it's inactive? That create the exact same situation. Further, since CCP will be banning this behaviour based on their logs, not from seeing the clients screen, if one is banned and the other is not, how could the differentiate between the two? This continues to be the problem with CCPs clarification of their EULA, all they do is make people feel less sure about what is actually allowed. We don't really care how they decide they want the rules, we just want them to be understandable and fairly enforced so we know where we stand. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
War Kitten Panda McLegion 6189	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:19:25 - [209] - Quote Mail Lite wrote: Just wanted to check with you about 'Pirates Little Helper'. It is a programme were you CTRL-A CTRL+C in local and it brings it up out of game, you get little icons which show what militia they are in, whether they are known to be link toons or whether they USE link toons. It also shows how many of each corp/alliance or in local without trolling though them. It gives you instant access to their KB, their last KB activity and what their 3 favourite ships are. It also gives the average number of pilots on all of their killmails (good for identifying gangs/bait) Can you confirm this is something that is ok to use? Pirate's Little Helper doesn't interface at all with Eve. It doesn't overlay the client, modify the client or interact with the client. It takes information from the Windows clipboard (Ctrl-C put it there) and submits HTML queries to access the rest of its information. You have nothing to worry about with PLH as far as I know. CCP couldn't ban it's use any more than they could ban the use of spreadsheet programs for industry calculations. I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7251	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:20:22 - [210] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Koenig Yazria wrote: [quote=Archibald Thistlewaite III] Are you playing the game exclusively with what comes "out of the box", no EFT, no Dotlan, no Siggy, etc ? No, I used EFT, Evemon(with cache scrapper turned off), Dotlan, Isboxer and Eve-preview fairly often. I'll be getting rid of Isboxer soon and I have no worries because I do not use them to break the EULA. What difference does what 3rd-party programs I use make to anything? They give you an advantage over people not using them, and so according to this dev blog are against the rules. Before you claim they don't give you an advantage, consider why you use them. EVE-O preview specifically gives you the same ability to see inactive clients, so that will definitely be a breach. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 874	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:31:57 - [211] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: OK consider this. Would you agree that using something like ISBoxer to move your overview on the same screen as your active client so you can see it while it's inactive is against the EULA? The answer to this should be "yes" since that's explicitly written on the dev blog. Of course its yes. Lucas Kell wrote: So why then would you think it's not against the EULA to place your active client over your inactive client with the inactive clients overview sticking out so you can see it while it's inactive? That create the exact same situation. Because using the ingame graphics options (that are available to everyone) is always going to be ok. Why would you think it isn't? Lucas Kell wrote: Further, since CCP will be banning this behaviour based on their logs, not from seeing the clients screen, if one is banned and the other is not, how could the differentiate between the two? This continues to be the problem with CCPs clarification of their EULA, all they do is make people feel less sure about what is actually allowed. We don't really care how they decide they want the rules, we just want them to be understandable and fairly enforced so we know where we stand. As for CCP's detection methods. Only CCP knows what they are and what they look for. Take it up with them. The reason people feel less secure about what is allowed is they believe what posters like you say things like windowed mode is no longer allowed. Lucas Kell wrote: Alhira Katserna wrote: So what about people who have multiple accounts but only 1 monitor? For example a 3x miner and 1x Orca setup where each window is sized to around 1600x900 and arrange so that in each corner shows a part of one client to easier click on them than using the windows preview. Will they have to fear to get banned because of this behaviour? Or the pvper who has set 2 accounts on one monitor (1 scout and 1 pvper) and is using this to show the Overview on the scout during still being active on his pvp toon? Will he also have to fear to get banned? Yep, full screen only. If people would stop trolling the player base things would be a lot clearer.
Rawthorm D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two 97	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:32:58 - [212] - Quote Does anyone have any legacy copies of the EULA? Is someone able to tell me when CCP snuck this little doozy in? Quote: D. MONITORING You agree that CCP may remotely monitor your Game hardware solely for the purpose of establishing whether in playing the Game and accessing the System you are using software created or approved by CCP, or whether you are using unauthorized software created by you or a third party in contravention of Section 6. That's pretty game over material right there. Even having unused multi-display software installed could get you nailed. Thankfully there are some old Samsung monitors that support adjustable picture in picture so there are hardware options out there for those with the wallet to support them.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7251	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:37:57 - [213] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Of course its yes. Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Because using the ingame graphics options (that are available to everyone) is always going to be ok. Why would you think it isn't? So what's the difference? YTou're not using in game graphics methods to overlay the windows, you ware using your operating systems window management system. What is the difference between using a window management program like ISBoxer to show the two overviews on the same screen and dragging the windows to accomplish the exact same thing. Either way, you can still gain the advantage of seeing the overview on the inactive window. Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: As for CCP's detection methods. Only CCP knows what they are and what they look for. Take it up with them. Yeah, that's kind what we were doing when you decided to leap in telling people how simple it is. Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: The reason people feel less secure about what is allowed is they believe what posters like you say things like windowed mode is no longer allowed. And according to the blog, in many cases it isn't. Windowed mode is allowed as long as you can't see any part of any inactive EVE windows. Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: If people would stop trolling the player base things would be a lot clearer. We're not trolling, we're simply point out the flaws in having insanely fuzzy rules. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 874	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:40:59 - [214] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: They give you an advantage over people not using them, and so according to this dev blog are against the rules. Before you claim they don't give you an advantage, consider why you use them. EVE-O preview specifically gives you the same ability to see inactive clients, so that will definitely be a breach. You need to re-read the devblog/EULA/ToS again. I don't break the EULA with any 3rd-party program I use. Could some of the programs I use, be used to break the EULA? Yes. But the programs themselves do not. Which is why what programs I or anyone else uses doesn't matter.
Mail Lite The Tuskers The Tuskers Co. 22	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:49:38 - [215] - Quote War Kitten wrote: Mail Lite wrote: Just wanted to check with you about 'Pirates Little Helper'. It is a programme were you CTRL-A CTRL+C in local and it brings it up out of game, you get little icons which show what militia they are in, whether they are known to be link toons or whether they USE link toons. It also shows how many of each corp/alliance or in local without trolling though them. It gives you instant access to their KB, their last KB activity and what their 3 favourite ships are. It also gives the average number of pilots on all of their killmails (good for identifying gangs/bait) Can you confirm this is something that is ok to use? Pirate's Little Helper doesn't interface at all with Eve. It doesn't overlay the client, modify the client or interact with the client. It takes information from the Windows clipboard (Ctrl-C put it there) and submits HTML queries to access the rest of its information. You have nothing to worry about with PLH as far as I know. CCP couldn't ban it's use any more than they could ban the use of spreadsheet programs for industry calculations. I agree with your outlook on PLH however CCP put this little gem in the dev post 'GÇ£We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. " Otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players... This little catch all statement is the issue. While all the info is out there if you want to look it up, PLH brings it all together and put it at the tips of your fingers. I can instantly look to see who can be working with who (alliance/corps/militia) who is a link pilot, who is a carebear, who is a pirate, their 3 favourite ships and direct access to their KB. So yea, it doesn't interact directly with the client, but it does, in some peoples minds I am sure, give an unfair advantage. Knowledge is power.
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 874	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:55:02 - [216] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: So what's the difference? YTou're not using in game graphics methods to overlay the windows, you ware using your operating systems window management system. What is the difference between using a window management program like ISBoxer to show the two overviews on the same screen and dragging the windows to accomplish the exact same thing. Either way, you can still gain the advantage of seeing the overview on the inactive window. . Read the devblog it tells you that using overlays to place elements of one client on to another is breaking the EULA. Having 2 clients in windowed mode is just that, having multiple clients open is ok. Lucas Kell wrote: Yeah, that's kind what we were doing when you decided to leap in telling people how simple it is. It is simple. Its would be even simpler if people stopped trolling with silly examples. Lucas Kell wrote: And according to the blog, in many cases it isn't. Windowed mode is allowed as long as you can't see any part of any inactive EVE windows. No, its doesn't say that. Read it again properly. Lucas Kell wrote: We're not trolling, we're simply point out the flaws in having insanely fuzzy rules. Stop trolling windowed mode is not going to get you banned.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6947	Posted - 2016.02.24 13:56:47 - [217] - Quote Mail Lite wrote: however CCP put this little gem in the dev post 'GÇ£We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. " Otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players... This little catch all statement is the issue. No, the catch all is the point. It catches all. it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players http://eveboard.com/ranks
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7251	Posted - 2016.02.24 14:06:06 - [218] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: They give you an advantage over people not using them, and so according to this dev blog are against the rules. Before you claim they don't give you an advantage, consider why you use them. EVE-O preview specifically gives you the same ability to see inactive clients, so that will definitely be a breach. You need to re-read the devblog/EULA/ToS again. I don't break the EULA with any 3rd-party program I use. Could some of the programs I use, be used to break the EULA? Yes. But the programs themselves do not. Which is why what programs I or anyone else uses doesn't matter. So are you saying your use of EVE-O preview doesn't give you an advantage over trying to do exactly the same without eve-o preview, or let you see what is going on on your inactive clients? I can already tell you it does both, and by that alone you're breaking the EULA by using it. Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Read the devblog it tells you that using overlays to place elements of one client on to another is breaking the EULA. Having 2 clients in windowed mode is just that, having multiple clients open is ok. Read it yourself. Specifically, read why it's banned, i,.e. the behaviour they are targeting rather than their example method of achieving that behvavior. They say it is banned as it "would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows". That is exactly what eve-o preview and tiling windows behind each other allows you to do. Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: No, its doesn't say that. Read it again properly. It in fact does. I'm going to simply ignore accusations of trolling, since it's clear those are non-constructive attacks, nothing more. Stop flailing your arms for a minute and read the dev blog. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Niraia Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory. 402	Posted - 2016.02.24 14:25:56 - [219] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: They say it is banned as it "would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows". That is exactly what eve-o preview and tiling windows behind each other allows you to do. So does having more than one monitor, or having more than one client on one monitor. I've reported your post for trolling, because I don't believe you're this special. GÖÑ
txcmf Polish Task Forces C0VEN 0	Posted - 2016.02.24 14:26:29 - [220] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: It's not just isboxer. You have an unfair advantage if you: - use EFT or pyfa - use evemon to plan ahead - use any of the manufacturing or research calculators to find deals and calculate profits - use a website or app to keep track of wormholes and create a dotlan-map the god awful w-space - use a ship identification chart - use voice comms - check people's killboard resume - have 2+ screens instead of just 1 - unfuck your overview ..or by possession of IQ higher than 70

ISD Max Trix ISD Community Communications Liaisons 154	Posted - 2016.02.24 14:32:27 - [221] - Quote We are sorry, the fedos are busy cleaning up this thread. Please enjoy this video while we preform some upkeep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=insM7oUYNOE ISD Max Trix Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department *I do not respond to Evemails.*
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 15	Posted - 2016.02.24 15:40:56 - [222] - Quote ISD Max Trix wrote: Thread reopened. I have removed some off topic post, rants, two quoting post, and those quoting them. Thanks for cleaning it up and getting it reopened so quickly!
woooooooooooo DeepSpace Manufacturers DeepSpace. 4	Posted - 2016.02.24 15:43:56 - [223] - Quote anyway, i have few questions about this dev-blog. Quote: "We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules." 1. overlay that pull information from another client is considered to be different ISBoxer without broadcasting? I knew ISBoxer without Broad casting is allowed at this time, and ISB can still pull information from another eve client, and i understand ISB is still allowed atm. 2. then, is ISBoxer(or MultiBoxing softwares) can be completely banned from eve online?
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 15	Posted - 2016.02.24 15:45:08 - [224] - Quote ISD Max Trix wrote: Thread reopened. I have removed some off topic post, rants, two quoting post, and those quoting them. Actually I take it back. Why did you remove my post? You don't think it's irrelevant that CCP should know that someone who has been playing for almost 13 years and has 15 subs is in the process of cancelling his accounts over this?
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 875	Posted - 2016.02.24 15:47:03 - [225] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: [So are you saying your use of EVE-O preview doesn't give you an advantage over trying to do exactly the same without eve-o preview, or let you see what is going on on your inactive clients? I can already tell you it does both, and by that alone you're breaking the EULA by using it. No, it doesn't. I can make the exact same setup without Eve-preview using the games windowed mode. The reason I don't is because it would mean having to set it all up manually everytime. You keep going on about advantage when that is not what the devblog/EULA/Tos says. Read it properly. You do realise that all the talk in the devblog regarding overlays containing elements of one client being placed on top of another client is CCP clarifying that those dashboard setups you were arguing for in the 'Multiboxing and input automation' thread in GD are not allowed. Sorry Lucas, I can't make you read the devblog/EULA/ToS and keep all the words in the correct order. If you want to go on thinking that playing Eve in windowed mode means you are breaking the EULA thats your business. I will continue to try and help those people who genuinely require help and ignore those who are only interested in scaremongering and rumour spreading.
Lena Arzi Sarmatia 1	Posted - 2016.02.24 15:47:52 - [226] - Quote By the way, the business clause should have an explicit exemption of ad-supported or donation-supported streaming per https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/monetization-of-videos-and-streaming-policy/ In some legislations when the income you have to declare with the tax office is above certain threshold, it must be associated with a legal entity (a business), even if the streamer is self employed. I know it's a technicality and in some situations it's a load of BS, but hey we don't want to unintentionally ban people promoting this game, do we?
Catt Stevens Shadow Legion X The Bastion 76	Posted - 2016.02.24 15:53:10 - [227] - Quote You know with all the ranting about what is and is not allowed a simple statement from CCP could clear ALL THIS UP: CCP just say -> 'ANY SOFTWARE THAT IS NOT OFFICIAL INCLUDED IN THE CLIENT OR NEEDED TO RUN THE CLIENT NATIVELY, THAT INTERACTS WITH THE CLIENT IN ANY WAY IS NOT ALLOWED, UNLESS IT IS AN OFFICIAL PART OF THE OPERATING SYSTEM OF THE COMPUTER THAT RUNS THE CLIENT. USING SUCH SOFTWARE WILL RESULT IN A BAN' Pretty simple way of putting a long and lengthy dev blog into less than 54 words.
Daugan Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies. 15	Posted - 2016.02.24 15:55:48 - [228] - Quote Or maybe CCP could realize they need to incorporate elements of 3rd party software, that VASTLY out classes their own offerings for client management.
Ecrir Twy'Lar Federation Navy 3rd Fleet 23	Posted - 2016.02.24 15:56:05 - [229] - Quote Suede wrote: Altrue wrote: "Let us start with everybodyGÇÖs favorite reading material, the EULA" hehehe made me laugh. Interesting devblog, albeit a bit light on the announcements, but the information there is indeed highly valuable. made me laugh more as you notice CCP post this dev blog just after SP trading came in. I bet CCP have notice Players are gold farm SP CCP make problems for them Self when they are going more down to Pay to Win Model. Bad road to go down Pay To Win To why CCP not listen to it player base in regards to SP trading we will never know. Exactly. The skill extractors/injectors are a huge invite for hackers. I can only imagine that their plans include hacking accounts, extracting all skills and selling them off. The question is, can CCP track where those injectors are traded to. If they can't, it's a huge fail.
Freelancer117 So you want to be a Hero 454	Posted - 2016.02.24 16:00:17 - [230] - Quote CCP Peligro wrote: Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future. Why this Amnesty option CCP Games, so soon after the Company monetization option for "skill trading " Regards, a Freelancer ps: new RMT initiative: come clean, receive Amnesty Eve online is : A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7251	Posted - 2016.02.24 16:02:51 - [231] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: No, it doesn't. I can make the exact same setup without Eve-preview using the games windowed mode. The reason I don't is because it would mean having to set it all up manually everytime. You keep going on about advantage when that is not what the devblog/EULA/Tos says. Read it properly. Care to provide a screenshot of your layout? EVE clients are limited on how small they can be made, so I fail to believe you're not using eve O preview to size them down below what the client allows you to use. Also, since players not using eve-o preview would have to set up their screens every time, that in itself is an advantage. Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: You do realise that all the talk in the devblog regarding overlays containing elements of one client being placed on top of another client is CCP clarifying that those dashboard setups you were arguing for in the 'Multiboxing and input automation' thread in GD are not allowed. I was never arguing for those, I was arguing for clarity in the same way I am now. If I multibox I use eve-o preview and I rarely multibox. I'd be quite content with CCP banning all forms of client layout tool if it helps them clarify the rules. Also, the dashboard setup your are talking about doesn't involve placing elements of one client over another, it involves placing elements of a client over a blank space in the same way eve-o preview layers the aero preview images over each other. I guarantee you I could achieve a similar layout using eve-o preview without chopping up any clients simply using a specific layering order. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7251	Posted - 2016.02.24 16:06:08 - [232] - Quote Catt Stevens wrote: You know with all the ranting about what is and is not allowed a simple statement from CCP could clear ALL THIS UP: CCP just say -> 'ANY SOFTWARE THAT IS NOT OFFICIAL INCLUDED IN THE CLIENT OR NEEDED TO RUN THE CLIENT NATIVELY, THAT INTERACTS WITH THE CLIENT IN ANY WAY IS NOT ALLOWED, UNLESS IT IS AN OFFICIAL PART OF THE OPERATING SYSTEM OF THE COMPUTER THAT RUNS THE CLIENT. USING SUCH SOFTWARE WILL RESULT IN A BAN' Pretty simple way of putting a long and lengthy dev blog into less than 54 words. Wouldn't be that simple, since there are Linux distros that natively contain broadcasting within their window manager, which we already know is against the EULA. Not everyone runs windows. Perhaps it would be simpler if CCP stopped trying to micromanage how people play the game and instead worked on making sure their game mechanics were complex enough to make multiboxing difficult. Additionally, they could simply disable the client rendering when it's not the active window and add checks to ensure only one EVE window is classed as active at any one time which would eliminate 99% of the issues. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 462	Posted - 2016.02.24 16:06:42 - [233] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Koenig Yazria wrote: [quote=Archibald Thistlewaite III] Are you playing the game exclusively with what comes "out of the box", no EFT, no Dotlan, no Siggy, etc ? No, I used EFT, Evemon(with cache scrapper turned off), Dotlan, Isboxer and Eve-preview fairly often. I'll be getting rid of Isboxer soon and I have no worries because I do not use them to break the EULA. What difference does what 3rd-party programs I use make to anything? I use EvEmon, but I don't know what this "cache scrapper" is. I perused the options but I didn't see anything relating to it. Since I'd like to remain on the up and up, could you provide me a quick explanation of what that is and how I'm supposed to turn it off? Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 875	Posted - 2016.02.24 16:22:54 - [234] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: I use EvEmon, but I don't know what this "cache scrapper" is. I perused the options but I didn't see anything relating to it. Since I'd like to remain on the up and up, could you provide me a quick explanation of what that is and how I'm supposed to turn it off? Open Evemon, goto tools and options, at the bottom is Market Unified Uploader, uncheck the use Market Unified Uploader box. Its a cache scrapper that sends market data to websites like eve-central, although I believe those sites now use the new API. Either way cache scrapping does break the EULA but CCP have said they will allow it for now.
Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 463	Posted - 2016.02.24 16:25:38 - [235] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Khan Wrenth wrote: I use EvEmon, but I don't know what this "cache scrapper" is. I perused the options but I didn't see anything relating to it. Since I'd like to remain on the up and up, could you provide me a quick explanation of what that is and how I'm supposed to turn it off? Open Evemon, goto tools and options, at the bottom is Market Unified Uploader, uncheck the use Market Unified Uploader box. Its a cache scrapper that sends market data to websites like eve-central, although I believe those sites now use the new API. Either way cache scrapping does break the EULA but CCP have said they will allow it for now. Thanks! Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Memphis Baas 1191	Posted - 2016.02.24 16:36:13 - [236] - Quote Som Boty wrote: Actually I take it back. Why did you remove my post? You don't think it's relevant that CCP should know that someone who has been playing for almost 13 years and has 15 subs is in the process of cancelling his accounts over this? CCP knows because you canceled your subscription with them. They don't think it's relevant that the rest of the player base (us) know; it's basically negative publicity, however well deserved.
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 16	Posted - 2016.02.24 16:52:45 - [237] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: Som Boty wrote: Actually I take it back. Why did you remove my post? You don't think it's relevant that CCP should know that someone who has been playing for almost 13 years and has 15 subs is in the process of cancelling his accounts over this? CCP knows because you canceled your subscription with them. They don't think it's relevant that the rest of the player base (us) know; it's basically negative publicity, however well deserved. That's the point, I haven't cancelled all of them yet. I told them I would if they didn't respond within 24 hours. I know it's fool Hardy and probably won't get a response, but now it CAN'T get a response. So I'll just cancel and CCP will be none the wiser.
Xerxes Fehrnah Cherokee Mining Company 39	Posted - 2016.02.24 17:01:07 - [238] - Quote CCP: Vague laws without specification are only used by the dishonest and untrustworthy who intend to figure out later that they do not like something and punish it without notification, then point back to the vague rule and say "That is against the rules." You need to specifically list out the actions and software you are banning from use one by one. Not tell us "sort of this is banned sometimes in certain cases as we see fit." With each month of game time that goes by, a person's investment in this game and your company increases. You create mistrust and fear by putting that at risk by leaving us unclear on what is against the rules.
Tokyo Drifter School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 3	Posted - 2016.02.24 17:29:24 - [239] - Quote When I rat I put my clients windows over each others so that I only view capacitors and overviews.. Am I fugged? I don't use any tool. If that indeed is considered game breaking just ban the possibility of playing with multiple instances from the same IP address and enjoy bankruptcy next year. After years of milking the same autists playing with 10 accounts instead of trying to gain a new playerbase that's how you thank their loyalty. Great.
Chalithra Lathar Rhongomiant Legion Industries The Explicit Alliance 36	Posted - 2016.02.24 17:36:24 - [240] - Quote http://i.imgur.com/G8LGsj7.png apparently this is banned, and CCP claims to have a way to 'detect' it. Don't use windowed mode (or desktop window manager) if you want to avoid being banned.

Shadoroth KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 15	Posted - 2016.02.24 17:39:30 - [241] - Quote Chalithra Lathar wrote: http://i.imgur.com/G8LGsj7.png apparently this is banned, and CCP claims to have a way to 'detect' it. Don't use windowed mode (or desktop window manager) if you want to avoid being banned. ...That is actually more information than my current ISBoxer setup, with larger sizes in regards to the ore hold part, which is doable if I had one of those ultra-wide monitors. This rule is dumb.
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 876	Posted - 2016.02.24 17:44:54 - [242] - Quote Chalithra Lathar wrote: http://i.imgur.com/G8LGsj7.png apparently this is banned, and CCP claims to have a way to 'detect' it. Don't use windowed mode (or desktop window manager) if you want to avoid being banned. What makes you think its 'apparently' banned?
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 16	Posted - 2016.02.24 17:46:22 - [243] - Quote Chalithra Lathar wrote: http://i.imgur.com/G8LGsj7.png apparently this is banned, and CCP claims to have a way to 'detect' it. Don't use windowed mode (or desktop window manager) if you want to avoid being banned. you cheating scumbag! how dare you overlay your windows. You are the scum that is ruining this game and something about ccp and isk buying amnesty... etc, etc.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7253	Posted - 2016.02.24 17:50:41 - [244] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Chalithra Lathar wrote: http://i.imgur.com/G8LGsj7.png apparently this is banned, and CCP claims to have a way to 'detect' it. Don't use windowed mode (or desktop window manager) if you want to avoid being banned. What makes you think its 'apparently' banned? Using windows mode is not banned. Dude, that exact same layout - exactly the same - using any third party tools is banned, as it allows you to see the overview of the inactive windows. That means that it must also be banned to replicate the exact same thing without software. It also means that doing it that way will look no different from CCPs point of view. As they say on the blog, Quote: frankly we donGÇÖt care. If you get banned, then this is because the results of what you did and how you potentially gained from it manifested in our server-side logs The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chalithra Lathar Rhongomiant Legion Industries The Explicit Alliance 39	Posted - 2016.02.24 17:51:06 - [245] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: What makes you think its 'apparently' banned? Using windows mode is not banned. dude read the blog Quote: However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, or for purposes beyond its intended use, or if the application or other software violates other parts of the EULA, we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans. We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules. This is clearly a violation. This is the use of a third party software (Windows 7) to do exactly what is being described.
Tokyo Drifter School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 3	Posted - 2016.02.24 17:52:01 - [246] - Quote I consider this another ninja hi-secbuff. Incursions, Missions and other activities available for hi-sec scrubs don't require multiple clients to be profitable. Just remove nullsec if all you can do is shitting over it (You even removed fun by the mean of Fozzie Sov). People in hi-sec will now make more isk by doing brain dead level 4 in perfect security.
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 876	Posted - 2016.02.24 17:59:07 - [247] - Quote Chalithra Lathar wrote: dude read the blog I have and it doesn't say that. Using the ingame window mode does not give you an unfair advantage. Every player has access to those options. Chalithra Lathar wrote: "However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, or for purposes beyond its intended use, or if the application or other software violates other parts of the EULA, we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans. We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules." This is clearly a violation. This is the use of a third party software (Windows 7) to do exactly what is being described. Whilst is possible I missed the use of overlays in that screenshot. It didn't look like there were any in use. If no overlays are being used then it clearly is not a violation. Using Eve's windowed mode is fine. Having multiple clients open is fine.
Shadoroth KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 15	Posted - 2016.02.24 18:01:02 - [248] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: dude read the blog I have and it doesn't say that. Using the ingame window mode does not give you an unfair advantage. Every player has access to those options.[/quote] Every player has access to ISBoxer too. Not every player has financial access to bigger/more monitors.
ISD Max Trix ISD Community Communications Liaisons 154	Posted - 2016.02.24 18:11:27 - [249] - Quote Removed a post and those quoting it for Discussing Forum Moderation. ISD Max Trix Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department *I do not respond to Evemails.*
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 16	Posted - 2016.02.24 18:13:31 - [250] - Quote Shadoroth wrote: Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: I have and it doesn't say that. Using the ingame window mode does not give you an unfair advantage. Every player has access to those options. Every player has access to ISBoxer too. Not every player has financial access to bigger/more monitors. this is my biggest complaint. I play eve on a single monitor, why should my experience suffer?

Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 876	Posted - 2016.02.24 18:17:16 - [251] - Quote Shadoroth wrote: Every player has access to ISBoxer too. Not every player has financial access to bigger/more monitors. Use IsBoxer if you want. Or put each individual client on its own monitor, or use window mode. Eve-o preview is also an option. Just make sure if you do use a 3rd-party program you don't use it to break the EULA.
Shadoroth KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 16	Posted - 2016.02.24 18:21:50 - [252] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Shadoroth wrote: Every player has access to ISBoxer too. Not every player has financial access to bigger/more monitors. Use IsBoxer if you want. Or put each individual client on its own monitor, or use window mode. Eve-o preview is also an option. Just make sure if you do use a 3rd-party program you don't use it to break the EULA. I would like to direct your attention here: Chalithra Lathar wrote: http://i.imgur.com/G8LGsj7.png apparently this is banned, and CCP claims to have a way to 'detect' it. Don't use windowed mode (or desktop window manager) if you want to avoid being banned. with ISboxer, you can take those visible pieces of the other clients, and put them on a different part of your screen (not overlaying a different eve client). Like the example, you could also click that part of the screen, and it would focus on that client (just like in the example). The difference, however, is that with ISBoxer, there is no over-laying involved, yet with the example posted, the eve client repositioning, there IS overlay. Therefore, the outrage is, what the actual hell is bannable, and what is not?
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 876	Posted - 2016.02.24 18:29:48 - [253] - Quote Shadoroth wrote: I would like to direct your attention here: Chalithra Lathar wrote: http://i.imgur.com/G8LGsj7.png apparently this is banned, and CCP claims to have a way to 'detect' it. Don't use windowed mode (or desktop window manager) if you want to avoid being banned. with ISboxer, you can take those visible pieces of the other clients, and put them on a different part of your screen (not overlaying a different eve client). Like the example, you could also click that part of the screen, and it would focus on that client (just like in the example). The difference, however, is that with ISBoxer, there is no over-laying involved, yet with the example posted, the eve client repositioning, there IS overlay. Therefore, the outrage is, what the actual hell is bannable, and what is not? Read the devblog Point 4: "We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules." Overlays using elements of clients (or pieces to use your terminology) is what breaks the EULA. Using windowed mode does notdo that. Stop believing all the wild rumours people are spreading.
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 16	Posted - 2016.02.24 18:32:54 - [254] - Quote Shadoroth wrote: Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Shadoroth wrote: Every player has access to ISBoxer too. Not every player has financial access to bigger/more monitors. Use IsBoxer if you want. Or put each individual client on its own monitor, or use window mode. Eve-o preview is also an option. Just make sure if you do use a 3rd-party program you don't use it to break the EULA. I would like to direct your attention here: Chalithra Lathar wrote: http://i.imgur.com/G8LGsj7.png apparently this is banned, and CCP claims to have a way to 'detect' it. Don't use windowed mode (or desktop window manager) if you want to avoid being banned. with ISboxer, you can take those visible pieces of the other clients, and put them on a different part of your screen (not overlaying a different eve client). Like the example, you could also click that part of the screen, and it would focus on that client (just like in the example). The difference, however, is that with ISBoxer, there is no over-laying involved, yet with the example posted, the eve client repositioning, there IS overlay. Therefore, the outrage is, what the actual hell is bannable, and what is not? the outrage is that people don't want to put anymore time / energy into playing a game if there is no certainty that we wont be banned. Until yesterday, CCP has REPEATEDLY said ISBoxer is fine. So many of us have spent countless hours setting up our environments and building toons and devloping our play styles over the last years based on that information and now it just got yanked out of from underneath us. That's my biggest complaint. This course reversal is CCP breaching their contract with their subscribers and now who the hell knows what's going to happen.
Ran Merhn Ghostly Fleet 0	Posted - 2016.02.24 18:39:45 - [255] - Quote Hi, What about last statement about ISBoxer? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5245807#post5245807 Hot or Flop?
Soltys Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 91	Posted - 2016.02.24 18:40:57 - [256] - Quote The whole bullshit wording of eula is done deliberately so they (CCP) can do anything at any time as they see fit. If we followed this vague nonsense, anyone using Little Pirate's Helper or Evernus would have been banned on the spot. What they should do is either rewrite this vague nonsense, or make an official, stickied, locked post with listed all 3rd party tools and sites which are allowed or which parts of them are allowed, e.g. which part of isboxer would be ok - despite their bullshit EULA clearly stating otherwise. Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 876	Posted - 2016.02.24 18:44:02 - [257] - Quote Isboxer is not banned. Certain aspects of the program will mean you break the EULA mainly the broadcasting and the videofx-dxnothing parts of it. There is a sticky in general discussion about it if you want more details.
Shadoroth KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 16	Posted - 2016.02.24 18:47:55 - [258] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Isboxer is not banned. Certain aspects of the program will mean you break the EULA mainly the broadcasting and the videofx-dxnothing parts of it. There is a sticky in general discussion about it if you want more details. From my understanding, repeater pass-through of videoFX breaks EULA. VideoFX itself, as long as its not used in an overlay, should not break EULA, but it might because ~vagueness~
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 16	Posted - 2016.02.24 18:53:45 - [259] - Quote Shadoroth wrote: Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Isboxer is not banned. Certain aspects of the program will mean you break the EULA mainly the broadcasting and the videofx-dxnothing parts of it. There is a sticky in general discussion about it if you want more details. From my understanding, repeater pass-through of videoFX breaks EULA. VideoFX itself, as long as its not used in an overlay, should not break EULA, but it might because ~vagueness~ I would HOPE that this is correct, but I doubt it. waiting on CCP to be sure. but then again, they might say its okay this week and change their mind again in a few months. nothing is for sure with these guys.
Sumo Sabezan SniggWaffe WAFFLES. 10	Posted - 2016.02.24 18:57:45 - [260] - Quote Shadoroth wrote: Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Isboxer is not banned. Certain aspects of the program will mean you break the EULA mainly the broadcasting and the videofx-dxnothing parts of it. There is a sticky in general discussion about it if you want more details. From my understanding, repeater pass-through of videoFX breaks EULA. VideoFX itself, as long as its not used in an overlay, should not break EULA, but it might because ~vagueness~ As much as I wish they didn't outright ban passthrough, I could understand that as long as they still allow Video FX and not ban it entirely. Banning it entirely is just ridiculous.

Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 876	Posted - 2016.02.24 18:58:19 - [261] - Quote Shadoroth wrote: From my understanding, repeater pass-through of videoFX breaks EULA. VideoFX itself, as long as its not used in an overlay, should not break EULA, but it might because ~vagueness~ It does break the EULA as it changes the way the game is played. Each client should be playable as though it was the only client. By having elements of client ie; overview or HUD seperate you can't play that client without an additional client open.
Shadoroth KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 16	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:01:04 - [262] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Shadoroth wrote: From my understanding, repeater pass-through of videoFX breaks EULA. VideoFX itself, as long as its not used in an overlay, should not break EULA, but it might because ~vagueness~ It does break the EULA as it changes the way the game is played. Each client should be playable as though it was the only client. By having elements of client ie; overview or HUD seperate you can't play that client without an additional client open. Then having multiple monitors also breaks EULA, as having videoFX without repeater passthrough is just a cheaper alternative to having every account have its own monitor.
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 16	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:09:48 - [263] - Quote Shadoroth wrote: Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Shadoroth wrote: From my understanding, repeater pass-through of videoFX breaks EULA. VideoFX itself, as long as its not used in an overlay, should not break EULA, but it might because ~vagueness~ It does break the EULA as it changes the way the game is played. Each client should be playable as though it was the only client. By having elements of client ie; overview or HUD seperate you can't play that client without an additional client open. Then having multiple monitors also breaks EULA, as having videoFX without repeater passthrough is just a cheaper alternative to having every account have its own monitor. except that the 'clarification' calls out software, not hardware.
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 876	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:10:18 - [264] - Quote Shadoroth wrote: Then having multiple monitors also breaks EULA, as having videoFX without repeater passthrough is just a cheaper alternative to having every account have its own monitor. Having multiple clients on multiple monitors is not the same as having elements of multiple clients grouped together on a monitor. Read the devblog:We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules. I've underlined the bit I'm reffering to. Unless I've misunderstood and you are using videofx to place whole clients on a single monitor as in say 2 rows of 3 to have 6 clients up. If thats the case its fine, its using videofx to manipulate elements of a client that breaks the EULA.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7253	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:11:01 - [265] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Overlays using elements of clients (or pieces to use your terminology) is what breaks the EULA. Using windowed mode does notdo that. Stop believing all the wild rumours people are spreading. OK archibald, so what you are saying then is that this is OK, but this is not OK? And you think there's a strong enough distinction between the two to warrant the ruling and that CCP will be able to tell the difference? See, we aren't spreading rumours, were simply pointing out how you can't ban one with the other. Ed: Also still waiting on you providing a screenshot of your eve-o preview layout that you don;t think give you an advantage. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Sumo Sabezan SniggWaffe WAFFLES. 10	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:12:44 - [266] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Shadoroth wrote: Then having multiple monitors also breaks EULA, as having videoFX without repeater passthrough is just a cheaper alternative to having every account have its own monitor. Having multiple clients on multiple monitors is not the same as having elements of multiple clients grouped together on a monitor. Read the devblog:We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules. I've underlined the bit I'm reffering to. Unless I've misunderstood and you are using videofx to place whole clients on a single monitor as in say 2 rows of 3 to have 6 clients up. If thats the case its fine, its using videofx to manipulate elements of a client that breaks the EULA. You are missing the point. If you have 3-4+ monitors, you don't need all that fancy stuff because you have the screen space to have them all there. If you only have 1/2 monitors you have to split them up in order for it to at all be playable. If they ban pass-through, but allow videofx, then we just click on the window to focus the one we need.
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 16	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:13:23 - [267] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Overlays using elements of clients (or pieces to use your terminology) is what breaks the EULA. Using windowed mode does notdo that. Stop believing all the wild rumours people are spreading. OK archibald, so what you are saying then is that this is OK, but this is not OK? And you think there's a strong enough distinction between the two to warrant the ruling and that CCP will be able to tell the difference? See, we aren't spreading rumours, were simply pointing out how you can't ban one with the other. i think what we are saying is that no one knows wtf is going on. its been nearly 24 hours and ccp hasn't made a single update.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7253	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:15:58 - [268] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Read the devblog:We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules. I've underlined the bit I'm reffering to. Unless I've misunderstood and you are using videofx to place whole clients on a single monitor as in say 2 rows of 3 to have 6 clients up. If thats the case its fine, its using videofx to manipulate elements of a client that breaks the EULA. I highlighted the part of your quote that explains why layered windows are not allowed, unless of course you are ignoring the fact that windowed clients can provide that intel without switching to them. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 12	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:16:38 - [269] - Quote Som Boty wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Overlays using elements of clients (or pieces to use your terminology) is what breaks the EULA. Using windowed mode does notdo that. Stop believing all the wild rumours people are spreading. OK archibald, so what you are saying then is that this is OK, but this is not OK? And you think there's a strong enough distinction between the two to warrant the ruling and that CCP will be able to tell the difference? See, we aren't spreading rumours, were simply pointing out how you can't ban one with the other. i think what we are saying is that no one knows wtf is going on. its been nearly 24 hours and ccp hasn't made a single update. They have, they have mentioned localization, streaming and on reddit to look at this thread. Lol
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 17	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:18:23 - [270] - Quote Koenig Yazria wrote: Som Boty wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Overlays using elements of clients (or pieces to use your terminology) is what breaks the EULA. Using windowed mode does notdo that. Stop believing all the wild rumours people are spreading. OK archibald, so what you are saying then is that this is OK, but this is not OK? And you think there's a strong enough distinction between the two to warrant the ruling and that CCP will be able to tell the difference? See, we aren't spreading rumours, were simply pointing out how you can't ban one with the other. i think what we are saying is that no one knows wtf is going on. its been nearly 24 hours and ccp hasn't made a single update. They have, they have mentioned localization, streaming and on reddit to look at this thread. Lol yes, they said to watch this thread for an update. but there is no update.

Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 876	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:23:40 - [271] - Quote Sumo Sabezan wrote: You are missing the point. If you have 3-4+ monitors, you don't need all that fancy stuff because you have the screen space to have them all there. If you only have 1/2 monitors you have to split them up in order for it to at all be playable. If they ban pass-through, but allow videofx, then we just click on the window to focus the one we need. Which is what the devblog says Quote: Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules. Underlining is mine.
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 1129	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:27:16 - [272] - Quote stg slate wrote: ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. You can't use EVEMon or EFT anymore. Let's see how you react.
Catt Stevens Shadow Legion X The Bastion 76	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:35:14 - [273] - Quote Primary This Rifter wrote: stg slate wrote: ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. You can't use EVEMon or EFT anymore. Let's see how you react. You are a fool, if you actually read the dev blog you would understand that is not the case, but since you just want to throw rocks you choose to do so without any actual facts. Don't worry you will catch up eventually.
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 17	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:43:01 - [274] - Quote Catt Stevens wrote: Primary This Rifter wrote: stg slate wrote: ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. You can't use EVEMon or EFT anymore. Let's see how you react. You are a fool, if you actually read the dev blog you would understand that is not the case, but since you just want to throw rocks you choose to do so without any actual facts. Don't worry you will catch up eventually. obviously EvEMon is an exaggeration, but the point is that it's technically against the EULA, so CCP could decide to ban you and if that's the case, there is suddenly a lot of risk to playing eve if CCP can just drop the ban hammer whenever they decide to change their opinion.
Catt Stevens Shadow Legion X The Bastion 78	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:46:25 - [275] - Quote Som Boty wrote: Catt Stevens wrote: Primary This Rifter wrote: stg slate wrote: ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. You can't use EVEMon or EFT anymore. Let's see how you react. You are a fool, if you actually read the dev blog you would understand that is not the case, but since you just want to throw rocks you choose to do so without any actual facts. Don't worry you will catch up eventually. obviously EvEMon is an exaggeration, but the point is that it's technically against the EULA, so CCP could decide to ban you and if that's the case, there is suddenly a lot of risk to playing eve if CCP can just drop the ban hammer whenever they decide to change their opinion. Again you do not realise that this is the case in ALL GAMES. CCP could ban you right now for NOTHING. Why light bonfires and get pitch forks just because they have actually NAMED things they do not want you to do.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7253	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:54:14 - [276] - Quote Catt Stevens wrote: Again you do not realise that this is the case in ALL GAMES. CCP could ban you right now for NOTHING. Why light bonfires and get pitch forks just because they have actually NAMED things they do not want you to do. Because they;ve literally stated in this dev blog that they dont; care how you accomplish it, but if you get picked up by their analysis as having done anything bad you'll get banned, but we know full well that there's a lot of legitimate gameplay that will look just like illegitimate gameplay. Again I point out that this is OK, but this is not OK. It's also because it makes no sense at all. Supposedly the rules are there to stop people having an unfair advantage from 3rd party apps, but then this is potentially OK because it's eve-o preview (and it definitely gives an advantage), and the multitude of other apps that give absolutely massive advantages to their users over people who don't use apps apparently don't count either. Basically saying "It's not OK to use third party apps to gain an advantage, except sometimes. We won't tell you what those sometimes are, but if you get caught you're banned." is just not acceptable, and as paying customers we should demand clear, concise and fair rules. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 876	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:55:39 - [277] - Quote Som Boty wrote: obviously EvEMon is an exaggeration, but the point is that it's technically against the EULA, so CCP could decide to ban you and if that's the case, there is suddenly a lot of risk to playing eve if CCP can just drop the ban hammer whenever they decide to change their opinion. You just need to turn the cache scraper part of it off. Evemon works via Eve's API. All the information that is available through the API has been made available by CCP to be used. Using the API is fine, as long as you obey the 3rd-party developer policies CCP has.
Catt Stevens Shadow Legion X The Bastion 78	Posted - 2016.02.24 19:59:38 - [278] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: but if you get picked up by their analysis as having done anything bad you'll get banned, but we know full well that there's a lot of legitimate gameplay that will look just like illegitimate gameplay. Again I point out that this is OK, but this is not OK. Please explain how you know for a fact that your example will work as you have stated? Do you know what CCP logs on their side? Are you a CCP employee? Do you have an inside source? No? Then you are just making assumptions.
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 17	Posted - 2016.02.24 20:09:25 - [279] - Quote Catt Stevens wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: but if you get picked up by their analysis as having done anything bad you'll get banned, but we know full well that there's a lot of legitimate gameplay that will look just like illegitimate gameplay. Again I point out that this is OK, but this is not OK. Please explain how you know for a fact that your example will work as you have stated? Do you know what CCP logs on their side? Are you a CCP employee? Do you have an inside source? No? Then you are just making assumptions. please explain how you know it to be different? You can't, that's the point! There is a lot of uncertainty.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7254	Posted - 2016.02.24 20:13:52 - [280] - Quote Catt Stevens wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: but if you get picked up by their analysis as having done anything bad you'll get banned, but we know full well that there's a lot of legitimate gameplay that will look just like illegitimate gameplay. Again I point out that this is OK, but this is not OK. Please explain how you know for a fact that your example will work as you have stated? Do you know what CCP logs on their side? Are you a CCP employee? Do you have an inside source? No? Then you are just making assumptions. No, I'm not a CCP employee, but I've listened to what theyv'e said on the matter in the past, so I know that the vast majority of their detection is server side. Being a developer I also know how applications work so I know that without a hefty bit of client side detection you won't be able to tell whether someone is looking at their overview and getting the intel from cut up pieces of clients or doing the same from layered windows. While neither of us can know for certain how it works out, I'd pretty heavily bet they have no way of telling the difference between the two. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Ran Merhn Ghostly Fleet 0	Posted - 2016.02.24 20:13:56 - [281] - Quote It must be clarified: will CCP that ONE player = ONE active eve client = ONE account = ONE subscription or multiboxin allowed and sponsored(The Power of 2 special offer). That for multiboxing you need more monitors or helping tools (ISBoxer etc...), for me its equal. I think by CCP, left leg dont know what right leg do.
Mintoko Taedium In Perpetuam 39	Posted - 2016.02.24 20:36:45 - [282] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Som Boty wrote: obviously EvEMon is an exaggeration, but the point is that it's technically against the EULA, so CCP could decide to ban you and if that's the case, there is suddenly a lot of risk to playing eve if CCP can just drop the ban hammer whenever they decide to change their opinion. You just need to turn the cache scraper part of it off. Evemon works via Eve's API. All the information that is available through the API has been made available by CCP to be used. Using the API is fine, as long as you obey the 3rd-party developer policies CCP has. Unless they plan to rewrite it, the market cache scraper is not going to be in version 3 of Evemon.
ShadowBill Federation Interstellar Resources Silent Infinity 0	Posted - 2016.02.24 20:59:12 - [283] - Quote My question falls under character transfer and buying. Now that we can buy another character's skills, through skill extractor/injector; why or how can we just buy a character outright?
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2288	Posted - 2016.02.24 21:44:42 - [284] - Quote ShadowBill wrote: My question falls under character transfer and buying. Now that we can buy another character's skills, through skill extractor/injector; why or how can we just buy a character outright? The character bazaar still exists. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Nikolai Agnon Dirt 'n' Glitter Local Is Primary 66	Posted - 2016.02.24 21:54:24 - [285] - Quote I run three clients on Linux in a tiled window manager (Debian; 'Awesome'), and I have two monitors. I am capable of playing with three "fullscreen" clients active on the same tag simultaneously (three clients on one screen, all in "fullscreen" mode), and I usually have a fourth window reserved for something else entirely. My other monitor, typically, is reserved for fullscreen browsing or watching documentaries. If I were to add just one more account, which I'm considering doing, I could fully play the game with 4 clients in a box layout with no window overlap (Awesome does not decorate windows). If I were to upscale further, then I could feasibly play with 4n clients, where n is an unbounded number of tags/'desktops'. Now, in Awesome, windows can have multiple tags simultaneously, so one window can be shared across multiple 'desktops'. If I were a nullbear, it would be extremely feasible to leave 1/4 of each tag dedicated to a single "intel" client with a cloaky scout one system out. This would essentially give me all the data available to a single client, across multiple screens, with the same effect as if it were merely overlaid over a screen. If I had 22 accounts (for hardcore mining or ratting or whatever), I could have 7 tags configured to 3-clients-per-tag, with a fourth (scout alt) shown across all 7 tags. This merely implements basic OS-level features, but under the vague definitions outlined in the dev blog, I fear I'm at risk merely for playing with different system settings. Claiming Awesome is third-party would be equitable to saying Gnome3 or KDE is third-party, at which point no Linux gamers are capable of playing EVE (you cannot play a game without a graphical desktop environment) Wine, however, is a third-party tool that is required for any Linux gamer to play. There's no native Linux Eve client, but we have Wine, which spoofs Windows binary calls. Awesome in particular changes window focus every time the mouse moves or clicks onto a different window. This might look suspicious in logs, especially depending on how CCP decides to combat overlays via server logs (I imagine mouse location is recorded whenever window changes focus) In practice, the demonstration mentioned above is no different from having multiple clients in windowed mode (a person on Reddit posted this screenshot) Quote:* We donGÇÖt know all the tools out there and what they do exactly - and frankly we donGÇÖt care. If you get banned, then this is because the results of what you did and how you potentially gained from it manifested in our server-side logs. Essentially, without any non-OS third-party software, I'm worried I could be at risk because my desktop environment natively supports a configuration that might look suspiciously similar, server-side, to graphical overlay use. Under the "we don't care" pretense, I have no protection in case someone decides "hey, this guy looks a little suspicious". There's no leeway for providing evidence of battlestation configuration, for OS discrepancies, for any false flags raised from Wine, for anything. This dev blog essentially says Linux gamers risk having their right to play revoked at any time for any reason at all, outside of their means to prevent. CCP, can you please clarify ANY of the points that have been mentioned in this thread?
Cynuu Risen from Ashes inPanic 5	Posted - 2016.02.24 22:16:09 - [286] - Quote Paying client for over 10 years for six accounts and definitely not happy with the overlay decision by CCP. CCP has cultivated the 3rd party application use for years, and it has been massively successful, and makes Eve one of the greatest games around. But, now with this EULA change and the vagueness of a fortune cookie language, I am in doubt if the style of play I have been paying the game in for years now can be continued. The arrogance regarding not caring what the players are doing and only the server side logs being evidence is troubling to say the least. Quote: and frankly we donGÇÖt care is never a statement that should be made by an organization that provides a service to paying customers. Lest you forget CCP, I am the paying customer. I keep the lights on. There are many more like me to be sure, but if I am alienated, so may others. This is a game, and should be enjoyable to play, if you make it anything other than that, it is at your own peril.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 5773	Posted - 2016.02.24 22:17:28 - [287] - Quote Nikolai Agnon wrote: This dev blog essentially says Linux gamers risk having their right to play revoked at any time for any reason at all, outside of their means to prevent. Playing EVE via Linux is unsupported. Do so at your own risk. [FYI, I'm a professional Linux OS developer. I play EVE using Windows 8.1.]
Rawthorm D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two 97	Posted - 2016.02.24 22:24:53 - [288] - Quote Tau Cabalander wrote: Nikolai Agnon wrote: This dev blog essentially says Linux gamers risk having their right to play revoked at any time for any reason at all, outside of their means to prevent. Playing EVE via Linux is unsupported. Do so at your own risk. [FYI, I'm a professional Linux OS developer. I play EVE using Windows 8.1.] I'm pretty sure CCP dropped Linux client support in favor of support via Wine. I could be wrong.
Nikolai Agnon Dirt 'n' Glitter Local Is Primary 68	Posted - 2016.02.24 22:25:49 - [289] - Quote Tau Cabalander wrote: Nikolai Agnon wrote: This dev blog essentially says Linux gamers risk having their right to play revoked at any time for any reason at all, outside of their means to prevent. Playing EVE via Linux is unsupported. Do so at your own risk. [FYI, I'm a professional Linux OS developer. I play EVE using Windows 8.1.] There is an entire subforum in the EVE Technology and Research Center dedicated to Linux. It's "unsupported" officially ("mileage may vary"), but CCP have not (until now) come out with a policy implicating Linux gamers as EULA-breakers simply for not using Windows.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4999	Posted - 2016.02.24 23:03:43 - [290] - Quote CCP Peligro wrote: Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future. (Crickets...) I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Proxay Stimulus Rote Kapelle 40	Posted - 2016.02.24 23:05:45 - [291] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: [quote=Catt Stevens][quote=Lucas Kell] but if you get picked up by their analysis as having done anything bad you'll get banned, but we know full well that there's a lot of legitimate gameplay that will look just like illegitimate gameplay. Again I point out that this is OK, but this is not OK.. Your examples are correct. The second example allows multiple clients to be controlled from a single application focus, without needing to bring each individual full game client to the front of your screen. You can tile the windows in the first example, but you need to very precisely sequentially click through them in that exact order each and every time. If you mess up that click-through process you'll bring a window over the top of others and spend the next minute or so trying to re-tile them. See this? This is the kind of **** that shouldn't be possible in EVE, it allows one player to control 11 Algos' in PVP simultaneously, allowing for outcomes that shouldn't be possible. Scale this up to larger entities, you have players deploying a dozen dreads from one player using 3rd Party Client Management tools to control all of them far more efficiently than if they had to click through each of the clients one-by-one. I've managed up to 4 clients simultaneously without 3rd party tools for Escalations and general EVE stuff (one hauling, links, pvp ship, something sitting idle) - it's hard to actively manage more than 2 clients at once using Windowed Mode. I don't believe that CCP ever intended for a single player to control 11 accounts simultaneously in active PVP, try doing this kind of thing without ISBoxer or other tools that allow clients to be overlaid and pinned on top of each other in a way that allows interaction with each, without Windows adjusting forward focus/on top layering of the currently selected window. You're being deliberately dense if you can't see that clear distinction between these things (using what they provide, and modifying the usage of their client through 3rd party apps), but you're even denser if you can't see that it's tied to a massive post about RMTing. They're giving a heads up to people using ISBoxer to print ISK all day in whatever way they do, for RMTing purposes. After this heads up it's ban-town folks. The Stormtrooper dude with his 11 Algos isn't their target or focus, they don't really care about that guy, he's an anomaly. They care about those printing isk all day and want to have a rule to point to when they ban those accounts. Loading signature...
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 17	Posted - 2016.02.24 23:16:28 - [292] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: CCP Peligro wrote: Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future. (Crickets...) a whole god damn day without a response.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7260	Posted - 2016.02.24 23:27:00 - [293] - Quote Proxay wrote: Your examples are correct. The second example allows multiple clients to be controlled from a single application focus, without needing to bring each individual full game client to the front of your screen. You can tile the windows in the first example, but you need to very precisely sequentially click through them in that exact order to execute orders on the clients. After one round of click-throughs, you need to spend several seconds/a minute re-layering each window in the right focus order in order to repeat this cycle again. This is simply unmanageable and useless outside of travelling around/non-active gameplay. Going back to your second example, it allows all those clients to be managed without this hassle, and more actively and beyond what most players have access to do. But then you can still see the intel regardless, and clicking and pressing hotkeys in quick succession will still allow you to operate all of the clients and ludicrous speed. You never need to re-layer the windows, you simply work backwards so at the end of each cycle it's naturally as it was. Proxay wrote: See this? This is the kind of ** that shouldn't be possible in EVE, it allows one player to control 11 Algos' in PVP simultaneously, allowing for outcomes that shouldn't be possible. Scale this up to larger entities, you have players deploying a dozen dreads from one player using 3rd Party Client Management tools to control all of them far more efficiently than if they had to click through each of the clients one-by-one. I've managed up to 4 clients simultaneously without 3rd party tools for Escalations and general EVE stuff (one hauling, links, pvp ship, something sitting idle) - it's hard to actively manage more than 2 clients at once using Windowed Mode. That is possible with absolutely no tools. That guy assisted his drones then just fired with one client and all of the drones launched. Anyone can do that with no tools. The reason there's 11 is that one fires the gun for the drones to trigger and the other 10 assist the drones for the maximum 50 assisted drones. Depending on the task you are performing it can be pretty easy to multibox anyway. Without any tools I have 3 monitors at a minimum and can easily run a few clients on each without much trouble. Something low input like mining, 16 accounts is a breeze. Proxay wrote: I don't believe that CCP ever intended for a single player to control 11 accounts simultaneously in active PVP, try doing this kind of thing without ISBoxer or other tools that allow clients to be overlaid and pinned on top of each other in a way that allows interaction with each, without Windows adjusting forward focus/on top layering of the currently selected window. You're being deliberately dense if you can't see that clear distinction between these things (using what they provide, and modifying the usage of their client through 3rd party apps), but you're even denser if you can't see that it's tied to a massive post about RMTing. Does this bit make you feel a bit silly now you realise there's a huge chance he did in fact do that without ISBoxer? I don't much care about the second half of the post, though effectively they're saying "if you're too efficient and our data analysis picks you up, you will be banned, but if you buy isk, something you know for a fact is against the rules, you can completely avoid the ban". Proxay wrote:** They're giving a heads up to people using ISBoxer to print ISK all day in whatever way they do, for RMTing purposes. After this heads up it's ban-town folks. The Stormtrooper dude with his 11 Algos isn't their target or focus, they don't really care about that guy, he's an anomaly. They care about those printing isk all day and want to have a rule to point to when they ban those accounts. No, it really isn't. If RMT were their target, they'd go after bots and they'd go after easy mechanics, since that's why things like mining and missions are so easily scalable. If they were really going after RMT they'd go after casino sites and the like too, since they rake in literally trillions, and let's face it, that's getting RMTed. Ed: to be honest you only need to look at the accounts per player graph to realise that the number of heavy multiboxers is pretty minimal. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Mag's Azn Empire 21329	Posted - 2016.02.25 00:05:33 - [294] - Quote Cynuu wrote: Quote: and frankly we donGÇÖt care is never a statement that should be made by an organization that provides a service to paying customers. Lest you forget CCP, I am the paying customer. I keep the lights on. There are many more like me to be sure, but if I am alienated, so may others. This is a game, and should be enjoyable to play, if you make it anything other than that, it is at your own peril. Well their attitude is rubbing off. So success in that regard. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
lord xavier Hax. 106	Posted - 2016.02.25 00:22:20 - [295] - Quote CCP Peligro wrote: Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future. Questions in here not serious enough for response? Well, I guess go ahead and kill first, ask questions later I suppose. We shall see how well eve functions when half the player base containing 2/3 of the accounts are banned. Cause space aint empty enough. 7 more days on 90% of my accounts. Not even going to bother paying for the next subs until there is clarification on what will and wont be allowed, and the detection methods you're using.
Praal Bearded BattleBears I N F A M O U S 22	Posted - 2016.02.25 00:30:32 - [296] - Quote Proxay wrote: The second example allows multiple clients to be controlled from a single application focus, without needing to bring each individual full game client to the front of your screen. Overlays can be input-relaying or not. It would have made more sense if they banned the former than banning anyvisual stitching together. Proxay wrote: You can tile the windows in the first example, but you need to very precisely sequentially click through them in that exact order to execute orders on the clients. This falls apart in the presence of OSs that focus on hover but do not raise on click. Proxay wrote: They're giving a heads up to people using ISBoxer to print ISK all day in whatever way they do, for RMTing purposes. After this heads up it's ban-town folks. Except printing ISK all day is accomplished with AFK Isktars which only need trending to every 10-15 minutes and just need to watch one local. Overlays are of minimal value there.
Chalithra Lathar Rhongomiant Legion Industries The Explicit Alliance 41	Posted - 2016.02.25 00:42:57 - [297] - Quote Proxay wrote: See this? This is the kind of **** that shouldn't be possible in EVE, it allows one player to control 11 Algos' in PVP simultaneously, allowing for outcomes that shouldn't be possible. what is drone assist.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6947	Posted - 2016.02.25 00:48:25 - [298] - Quote Praal wrote: Proxay wrote: They're giving a heads up to people using ISBoxer to print ISK all day in whatever way they do, for RMTing purposes. After this heads up it's ban-town folks. Except printing ISK all day is accomplished with AFK Isktars which only need trending to every 10-15 minutes and just need to watch one local. Overlays are of minimal value there. They just need to kill the drone autoaggro. Replace drones with drone squadrons! Chalithra Lathar wrote: Proxay wrote: See this? This is the kind of ** that shouldn't be possible in EVE, it allows one player to control 11 Algos' in PVP simultaneously, allowing for outcomes that shouldn't be possible. what is drone assist. Mm, drone assist. Some ships are a lot better for assisting as they use less but seriously boosted drones, which makes the cap less of an issue. it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players** http://eveboard.com/ranks
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 96	Posted - 2016.02.25 00:51:43 - [299] - Quote You could probably allow us overcome the need for 3rd party stuff if you gave us the tools. I mean you've killed pvp to the point that people won't fly alone and always require n+1 so you are indirectly forcing people to use tools to be able to control two characters easily. Or because gates are choke points you are forcing people to sit there split screen providing eyes on what targets are coming through the gate. With a little love you to the game you would reduce the need for people to use such tools.
Matthew Reddy Blood in the Water 0	Posted - 2016.02.25 01:12:10 - [300] - Quote Can i use ISBoxer for window management as long as i do not broadcast?. Can i get a clear answer on this.

Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 19	Posted - 2016.02.25 01:12:54 - [301] - Quote Matthew Reddy wrote: Can i use ISBoxer for window management as long as i do not broadcast?. Can i get a clear answer on this. yea ccp, can this guy get an answer please?
Neuntausend GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 676	Posted - 2016.02.25 02:07:21 - [302] - Quote Dart Aurel wrote: There are 2 questions regarding windows switching policy points: 1. Is it prohibited to have 2 clients open and visible each on its own monitor? 2. I play EVE Online under Linux + Wine. Also I have tiled WM (xmonad) which allows to switch windows really fast (<50ms delay). Is this fair use or is it an exploit? I am in that same boat. Here are some examples for 1.: http://i.imgur.com/PddMsja.jpg http://i.imgur.com/MsqLlZo.jpg http://i.imgur.com/dPSFxnO.jpg Although only one uses "overlays" (or 9000 hours of mspaint, actually), they all "allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows" so I have to assume all three are a breach of the EULA? As for 2. - All things GNU Linux are probably 3rd party software most of you don't know a lot about. The X Server, open source graphics drivers and window managers all influence how the eve client looks and where it shows up on my screen(s). So ... danger zone as well?
Proxay Stimulus Rote Kapelle 41	Posted - 2016.02.25 02:08:48 - [303] - Quote Chalithra Lathar wrote: Proxay wrote: See this? This is the kind of **** that shouldn't be possible in EVE, it allows one player to control 11 Algos' in PVP simultaneously, allowing for outcomes that shouldn't be possible. what is drone assist. He wasn't assisting drones. Loading signature...
Proxay Stimulus Rote Kapelle 41	Posted - 2016.02.25 02:10:58 - [304] - Quote Neuntausend wrote: Dart Aurel wrote: There are 2 questions regarding windows switching policy points: 1. Is it prohibited to have 2 clients open and visible each on its own monitor? 2. I play EVE Online under Linux + Wine. Also I have tiled WM (xmonad) which allows to switch windows really fast (<50ms delay). Is this fair use or is it an exploit? I am in that same boat. Here are some examples for 1.: http://i.imgur.com/PddMsja.jpg http://i.imgur.com/MsqLlZo.jpg http://i.imgur.com/dPSFxnO.jpg Although only one uses "overlays" (or 9000 hours of mspaint, actually), they all "allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows" so I have to assume all three are a breach of the EULA? As for 2. - All things GNU Linux are probably 3rd party software most of you don't know a lot about. The X Server, open source graphics drivers and window managers all influence how the eve client looks and where it shows up on my screen(s). So ... danger zone as well? I hope CCP can have someone just say outright: "1 is not okay, 2 and 3 are fine". Because 1 is utilising overlaying **** to make it so you can click through without changing clients, whereas 2 and 3 are separate clients that you're interacting with. Loading signature...
Neuntausend GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 676	Posted - 2016.02.25 02:52:14 - [305] - Quote Proxay wrote: I hope CCP can have someone just say outright: "1 is not okay, 2 and 3 are fine". Because 1 is utilising overlaying ** to make it so you can click through without changing clients, whereas 2 and 3 are separate clients that you're interacting with. I'd be fine with this, except for one thing: If that is what they mean, why don't they put that into their effing rules the way they mean it? Because, if you lawyer the ** out of the EULA the way it is written now, basically everything you can do in Eve is technically a bannable offense, which is downright stupid. One of my favourites is this one: "You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above." If that is so, what the deuce is the market, the trade window and the contract system for?
Proxay Stimulus Rote Kapelle 41	Posted - 2016.02.25 03:05:51 - [306] - Quote Neuntausend wrote: Proxay wrote: I hope CCP can have someone just say outright: "1 is not okay, 2 and 3 are fine". Because 1 is utilising overlaying ** to make it so you can click through without changing clients, whereas 2 and 3 are separate clients that you're interacting with. I'd be fine with this, except for one thing: If that is what they mean, why don't they put that into their effing rules the way they mean it? Because, if you lawyer the out of the EULA the way it is written now, basically everything you can do in Eve is technically a bannable offense, which is downright stupid. One of my favourites is this one: "You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above." If that is so, what the deuce is the market, the trade window and the contract system for? You'd love the non-compete agreements I signed for work if you think the EULA is broad. This is legal , legal ** is meant to mean "WE WIN EVERY TIME EVERYWHERE", selective enforcement is what counts, how they use it, etc. They're going to have a big toolbox, they just need to get down here, into this damn thread and off Reddit, and post a reply! Why are we all sitting here trying to reinterpret the bible when the author can just write a quick post going "Yes", "No", "Whatever, quit". Seriously CCP, where the hell are your community liaisons. Loading signature...
Alundil Isogen 5 1091	Posted - 2016.02.25 03:12:34 - [307] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: Say I have eight screens next to each other in a 2x4 grid, and several of them are scouts in neighboring systems, or cloaked on every hole in a wormhole chain. I don't use any client overlays because they're all side by side and I can see them just fine. Am I breaking rules about unfair advantages? What's missing from the announcement is intent. If it's purely to reduce unfair advantage, it's odd to think the problem is overlays and not the playability of multiple clients and a bit of hardware. What are you really getting at? I'll refrain from expecting any meaningful response to this abortion of a devblog. It offers zero clarification. In other news, going to try and make it out to the meetup this weekend. I'm right behind you
Neuntausend GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 676	Posted - 2016.02.25 03:17:46 - [308] - Quote Proxay wrote: This is legal **, legal ** is meant to mean "WE WIN EVERY TIME EVERYWHERE", selective enforcement is what counts, how they use it, etc. Welp - I just got triggered, I guess. You are completely right of course. I just can't stand obvious hypocrisy. If you are going to be insincere, at least try to not be so obvious about it. As it currently stands they could write "Whatever you do we may or may not tolerate. We can ban you at any point for any reason we pull out of our ass" into the EULA and not change the content.
Memphis Baas 1196	Posted - 2016.02.25 03:28:15 - [309] - Quote Alundil wrote: I'll refrain from expecting any meaningful response to this abortion of a devblog. It offers zero clarification. Also the graph, it's not just useless, it's wrong. Their ban and EULA enforcement policies are clearly designed to achieve a log reduction in RMT, but they only predict a gradual linear reduction? A linear reduction is the result you get when the RMT'ers get bored of how much they're making and gradually move to other games.
Neuntausend GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 676	Posted - 2016.02.25 03:30:32 - [310] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: Also the graph, it's not just useless, it's wrong. Their ban and EULA enforcement policies are clearly designed to achieve a log reduction in RMT, but they only predict a gradual linear reduction? A linear reduction is the result you get when the RMT'ers get bored of how much they're making and gradually move to other games. It's meant as a joke. At least, I hope it's meant as a joke Oh god, please let it be meant as a joke!

Proxay Stimulus Rote Kapelle 41	Posted - 2016.02.25 03:31:07 - [311] - Quote Neuntausend wrote: Proxay wrote: This is legal **, legal ** is meant to mean "WE WIN EVERY TIME EVERYWHERE", selective enforcement is what counts, how they use it, etc. Welp - I just got triggered, I guess. You are completely right of course. I just can't stand obvious hypocrisy. If you are going to be insincere, at least try to not be so obvious about it. As it currently stands they could write "Whatever you do we may or may not tolerate. We can ban you at any point for any reason we pull out of our ass" into the EULA and not change the content. Doesn't it say that already? The good thing is, CCP is a business that makes games for profit. They follow money and love customers. We're customers, and right/wrong they're gonna wanna keep getting those dank RL bucks. Loading signature...
Proxay Stimulus Rote Kapelle 41	Posted - 2016.02.25 03:31:54 - [312] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: Alundil wrote: I'll refrain from expecting any meaningful response to this abortion of a devblog. It offers zero clarification. Also the graph, it's not just useless, it's wrong. Their ban and EULA enforcement policies are clearly designed to achieve a log reduction in RMT, but they only predict a gradual linear reduction? A linear reduction is the result you get when the RMT'ers get bored of how much they're making and gradually move to other games. ayo it's a joke bro Loading signature...
Neuntausend GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 676	Posted - 2016.02.25 03:35:56 - [313] - Quote Proxay wrote: The good thing is, CCP is a business that makes games for profit. They follow money and love customers. We're customers, and right/wrong they're gonna wanna keep getting those dank RL bucks. I bet they do. I'll just keep believing then. Fake Edit: CCP is a company that made ONE game they mysteriously turned into a profit.There, FTFY
Alundil Isogen 5 1091	Posted - 2016.02.25 03:40:07 - [314] - Quote War Kitten wrote: Pirate's Little Helper doesn't interface at all with Eve. It doesn't overlay the client, modify the client or interact with the client. Actually, PLH CAN ovelay the client. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrPBLM8GF0s The browser-baed version does not. But the installed version can be used to overlay. I'm right behind you
Emrys Alf Seagull Fleet Alternate Allegiance 4	Posted - 2016.02.25 03:41:30 - [315] - Quote The functionality of overlays with click through is part of the Windows, Macintosh and I Linux core and has been so for a while. It is what allows for the previews that one sees on the bottom of your screen and a bunch of other tricks. IsBoxer is not the big issue Ontopreplica is as it is free, very easy to install and makes a lot of sense for the modern real-estate challenged dilemma of wanting to see more than what your working on. A YouTube video, your mail, TS, and a billion other useful things. It gives the user the freedom to control what they want to see on their desktop. Ontopreplica for the ultimate eve online AFK experience This is where the world is.. So to come out with a ruling that tries to stop the flow of time and forbid what is part of the system but really can't be limited/controlled I believe is the wrong direction. Removing broadcasting was a rational move and set a simple president. One click/key press per action so it should not matter if someone had built their uber screen with buttons and displays of fuel, weapons and so on.
Spcius Patrouette The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult 9	Posted - 2016.02.25 04:50:04 - [316] - Quote 15 pages. still no response from CCP. cool.
Neuntausend GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 676	Posted - 2016.02.25 04:58:52 - [317] - Quote Spcius Patrouette wrote: 15 pages. still no response from CCP. cool. Have you ever dealt with CCPs support? This is Eve, dude. Have patience! They will respond eventually. Maybe. In a few weeks, or so.
Spcius Patrouette The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult 9	Posted - 2016.02.25 05:05:53 - [318] - Quote Neuntausend wrote: Spcius Patrouette wrote: 15 pages. still no response from CCP. cool. Have you ever dealt with CCPs support? This is Eve, dude. Have patience! They will respond eventually. Maybe. In a few weeks, or so. Oh no doubt, its just that they specifically said they would be responding is all.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6947	Posted - 2016.02.25 05:10:52 - [319] - Quote Spcius Patrouette wrote: Neuntausend wrote: Spcius Patrouette wrote: 15 pages. still no response from CCP. cool. Have you ever dealt with CCPs support? This is Eve, dude. Have patience! They will respond eventually. Maybe. In a few weeks, or so. Oh no doubt, its just that they specifically said they would be responding is all. I think most of these posts says they will respond, and then you see 300+ pages with nothing. Not news. Proxay wrote: Why are we all sitting here trying to reinterpret the bible when the author can just write a quick post going "Yes", "No", "Whatever, quit". Seriously CCP, where the hell are your community liaisons. Because they're not going to. What're people here going to do about it? Post a lot, probably. it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players http://eveboard.com/ranks
Agata Matahari Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 175	Posted - 2016.02.25 05:22:14 - [320] - Quote Well, today ima go buy some hundred bills of ISK on ebay. After transaction I will send CCP time, place and name of seller ingame and can keep the ISK? Cool!

Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7264	Posted - 2016.02.25 05:31:53 - [321] - Quote Proxay wrote: Chalithra Lathar wrote: Proxay wrote: See this? This is the kind of **** that shouldn't be possible in EVE, it allows one player to control 11 Algos' in PVP simultaneously, allowing for outcomes that shouldn't be possible. what is drone assist. He wasn't assisting drones. Yes he was. If he tried to do this without drone assist, using overlays and passthroughs and the like he would have been crippling himself since none of his other ships have guns and there's no faster way to get the drones going than drone assist. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lt Shard Team Pizza Good at this Game 59	Posted - 2016.02.25 06:55:01 - [322] - Quote Oh good thing I have multiple monitors so I can triple box with extreme effectiveness Sucks to be you, single monitor plebs!
Masao Kurata Perkone Caldari State 415	Posted - 2016.02.25 07:03:07 - [323] - Quote Emrys Alf wrote: IsBoxer is not the big issue Ontopreplica is as it is free, very easy to install and makes a lot of sense for the modern real-estate challenged dilemma of wanting to see more than what your working on. A YouTube video, your mail, TS, and a billion other useful things. It gives the user the freedom to control what they want to see on their desktop. OnTopReplica's click forwarding doesn't even work with EVE (at least it didn't when I tested it) and seriously OnTopReplica just offers exactly what you get with multiple monitors... except worse because it's obscuring other windows.
Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 12	Posted - 2016.02.25 08:30:09 - [324] - Quote Neuntausend wrote: Spcius Patrouette wrote: 15 pages. still no response from CCP. cool. Have you ever dealt with CCPs support? This is Eve, dude. Have patience! They will respond eventually. Maybe. In a few weeks, or so. Totally something you want to do when you make a announcement out of the blue saying that you will ban people based on very vague criteria. Like what the heck CCP, is this subject so smelly already that no one wants to touch it with a stick ?
Freelancer117 So you want to be a Hero 454	Posted - 2016.02.25 10:28:35 - [325] - Quote Cynuu wrote: Paying client for over 10 years for six accounts and definitely not happy with the overlay decision by CCP. CCP has cultivated the 3rd party application use for years, and it has been massively successful, and makes Eve one of the greatest games around. But, now with this EULA change and the vagueness of a fortune cookie language, I am in doubt if the style of play I have been paying the game in for years now can be continued. The arrogance regarding not caring what the players are doing and only the server side logs being evidence is troubling to say the least. Quote: and frankly we donGÇÖt care is never a statement that should be made by an organization that provides a service to paying customers. Lest you forget CCP, I am the paying customer. I keep the lights on. There are many more like me to be sure, but if I am alienated, so may others. This is a game, and should be enjoyable to play, if you make it anything other than that, it is at your own peril. Do you honestly think the for profit Company gives a shite what you customers think ? Look at how they dealt with their customer representatives during 2015 and early 2016. Their Corporate suit attitude is Greed and Hubris, with the monetization of skill trading source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeXatquVqAc Regards, a Freelancer ps: has ccp leeloo rewritten this piece to, like the csm white paper, both the wordings are vague Eve online is : A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
Miner Hottie Haywire. 183	Posted - 2016.02.25 10:30:08 - [326] - Quote Koenig Yazria wrote: Neuntausend wrote: Spcius Patrouette wrote: 15 pages. still no response from CCP. cool. Have you ever dealt with CCPs support? This is Eve, dude. Have patience! They will respond eventually. Maybe. In a few weeks, or so. Totally something you want to do when you make a announcement out of the blue saying that you will ban people based on very vague criteria. Like what the heck CCP, is this subject so smelly already that no one wants to touch it with a stick ? It's nearly DT, so CCP should be waking up soon. That doesn't guarantee a response, but it helps. Also, CCP can we use a third party program and/or native functionality of some operating systems to tile and manage instances of Eve? It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Light Raider HC-Nightshade 5	Posted - 2016.02.25 10:57:07 - [327] - Quote Tristan Agion wrote: Quote: 2. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay. AS LONG AS itGÇÖs fair to everybody - neither you nor anybody else gets any unfair advantage GÇô we are fine with it. What's missing here is some kind of definition what might count as a fair advantage. Each and every third party tool I might use while playing EVE is of course aimed at giving me an advantage in the game. That's the very point of using said tool! For example, Tripwire keeps track of my wormhole connections and the signatures I encountered. It would be more tedious, slower, and much less useful to do this by other means (e.g., pen and paper, or perhaps the built-in notepad). So compared with someone who does not use Tripwire I clearly have an advantage when exploring wormholes. But is this an "unfair advantage"? Are you going to outlaw Tripwire? I really would like to know, since that's software I like to use in game. And if you say that Tripwire is fine, then what about say the "Dscan Locator" tool in Pirate's Little Helper? Is that kind of "computer assisted" dscan analysis also fine? And if you say that the "Dscan Locator" is indeed fine as well, then I really have no idea what you are talking about concerning "unfair advantage". Unless perhaps somebody has built an EVE PVP bot, or the like... Please clarify. Seriously, you need to give us a much better idea where the line is with 3rd party tools. CCP, can you please clarify us on the point about the use of these tools included EveEye, plus voice assist programs like "Voice Attack"? Thanks
lost packet Alpha Flight Almost Broken 92	Posted - 2016.02.25 12:03:48 - [328] - Quote Figured my multiple EVE subscriptions would continue on until EVE died, with the lack of response from CCP regarding most of the questions in this thread, the chances are slim of continuing to part with real life time and money to continue EVE; I don'y actually play any other games either. I know I need to get out more :) Scenerio 1: I have a desktop PC upstairs with i7 processor, 32GB RAM, triple 27" monitors; most of the isues are fine simply due to the fact I can run multiple EVE clients on each monitor, while still being able to have other tools visible such as Mumble, vIntel etc. Scenerio 2: I have family/kids and obviously want to spend time with the kids (not too arsed about the misses, just kind of stuck with her). Sometimes she needs a break from the kids, or needs to go and get a shower, cook my dinner or something; requiring me to keep an eye on the kids, throw a stick or something for them to chase now and again, etc. I have an i7 gaming laptop, which has a 17" screen. Set up the laptop downstairs, running ISBoxer for window management which enables the ability to have EVE client full screen, with 3 small reduced size clients underneath it, no dx nothing windows or other dodgy **); this being a valid alternative for visible scouts/cynos. Conclusion:** So, CCP, a response on whether Scenerio 2 is valid, or if I have to consider: Option A, throw the misses out, tell her to take her kids with her. Option B, reduce EVE subscriptions as it would just be wasting money she can use to go and get her hair done, buy a pair of jeans or something.
Daugan Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies. 19	Posted - 2016.02.25 12:07:46 - [329] - Quote As it stands CCP Falcon said we would be hearing back from team security on the subject, in this thread. That was almost a day ago at this point.
Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 14	Posted - 2016.02.25 12:37:24 - [330] - Quote lost packet wrote: Scenerio 1: I have a desktop PC upstairs with i7 processor, 32GB RAM, triple 27" monitors; most of the isues are fine simply due to the fact I can run multiple EVE clients on each monitor, while still being able to have other tools visible such as Mumble, vIntel etc. Scenerio 2: I have family/kids and obviously want to spend time with the kids (not too arsed about the misses, just kind of stuck with her). Sometimes she needs a break from the kids, or needs to go and get a shower, cook my dinner or something; requiring me to keep an eye on the kids, throw a stick or something for them to chase now and again, etc. I have an i7 gaming laptop, which has a 17" screen. Set up the laptop downstairs, running ISBoxer for window management which enables the ability to have EVE client full screen, with 3 small reduced size clients underneath it, no dx nothing windows or other dodgy ****); this being a valid alternative for visible scouts/cynos. ISBoxer also has some great functionality allowing you to reduce the FPS to say 10 for inactive windows. I have something similar setup as your laptop on my PC, although for me it was mainly to take load of my gaming laptop whose GPU isnt the most reliable and has enabled me to free up some of the coveted desk space.

Memphis Baas 1199	Posted - 2016.02.25 13:31:55 - [331] - Quote Emrys Alf wrote: On Top Replica for the ultimate eve online AFK experience All I see is: - the ability to move ANY part of the UI to anywhere on screen. - the ability to cover up a large portion of the screen with other windows but still see the relevant parts you're interested in. - the ability to zoom in CCP's ****** small fonts. - miner not paying attention to local or the overview. All 4 are good things in my book; none of those seems like an "unfair advantage."
Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 14	Posted - 2016.02.25 13:35:08 - [332] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: - the ability to zoom in CCP's ****** small fonts. Didn't use that software, but that is a hugely positive thing.
Monasucks BLACK SQUADRON. RAZOR Alliance 159	Posted - 2016.02.25 13:45:12 - [333] - Quote @CCP - where is the disadvantage when using tools for single monitors? I don't have 2 or 3 screens with me, when I'm on the road in projects, and if I like to play even in the evening after work.. I usually got 1 screen from the laptop.. so.. Window management comes in handy. Now with Windows 10 you even don't need anything 3rd party anymore as for casual play it fit's.. but still understanding your EULA it could be not allowed? Can I haz you're stuff? [i][b]A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead. Payday for good workers has been postponed indefinitely. Pa
Emrys Alf Seagull Fleet Alternate Allegiance 4	Posted - 2016.02.25 14:28:02 - [334] - Quote Masao Kurata wrote: OnTopReplica's click forwarding doesn't even work with EVE (at least it didn't when I tested it) and seriously OnTopReplica just offers exactly what you get with multiple monitors... except worse because it's obscuring other windows. Features of current version Clone any of your windows and keep it always on top while working with other windows, Select a subregion of the cloned window: Store the selected subregions for future use, Now with relative subregions from the window's borders. Auto-resizing (fit the original window, half, quarter and fullscreen mode), Position lock on the screen's corners, Adjustable opacity, "Click forwarding" allows to interact with the cloned window, "Click-through" allows to click through the cloned thumbnail (especially useful with partial opacity), "Group switch" mode automatically switches through a group of windows while you use them, Non invasive installation doesn't require administrator elevation.
Rawthorm D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two 101	Posted - 2016.02.25 15:35:02 - [335] - Quote Can anyone at CCP confirm if the timing of this rule "clarification" is down to CCP FoxFour looking for the door? As he is/was a contributor to EvE-O I'm wondering if this blog has been lurking in the shadows for quite some time.
Alissa Solette Vilsalant Holding Inc. 12	Posted - 2016.02.25 15:53:08 - [336] - Quote I also want a clear answer from CCP about all this vague blather in the dev blog. Give us a simple (non-exhaustive) list of third party tools that are clearly in violation of the EULA. What about the roughly 5 or 10 third party tools that were actively mentioned in this thread, which one of them are considered forbidden by CCP? And while you're at it: what about gaming hardware? Is it a bannable exploit to have a single button on your G15 keyboard activate two or three modules at a time? Or overheat only 2 high slots instead of the entire rack? You can't come in here and have your employees tell people that they will be banned if they use certain tools and then not specify exactly which tools or what features are going to lead to a ban? Sure, tools that allow me to control multiple clients with a single user input are obviously forbidden. But what about overlays that don't provide information from a second EVE client but rather from a killboard? And if you're unwilling or unable to provide any useful information except that you'll simply monitor server logs then please tell us how high our kill efficiency is allowed to be before you consider it a bannable offence (or which other metrics are you going to be watching in the case of a tool like PLH)? You guys have been at this for nearly 13 years. Isn't it finally time to get your act together and give us some proper information instead of this vague talk that could mean anything? We're floating in limbo here....
Anhenka Infinite Point Northern Army 1520	Posted - 2016.02.25 15:54:32 - [337] - Quote Rawthorm wrote: Can anyone at CCP confirm if the timing of this rule "clarification" is down to CCP FoxFour looking for the door? As he is/was a contributor to EvE-O I'm wondering if this blog has been lurking in the shadows for quite some time. RIP one of the less obvious, but most important devs. This game nearly requires third party tools to deal with the massive amount of information that needs to be tracked and dealt with, and now the only dev with the inclination to help the community with them is leaving. EVE isn't dying, but it definitely seems to be a two steps forwards, two steps back sort of deal recently.
Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 14	Posted - 2016.02.25 15:57:07 - [338] - Quote Anhenka wrote: This game nearly requires third party tools Its not "nearly". It is required.
Soltys Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 93	Posted - 2016.02.25 16:03:53 - [339] - Quote Rawthorm wrote: Can anyone at CCP confirm if the timing of this rule "clarification" is down to CCP FoxFour looking for the door? As he is/was a contributor to EvE-O I'm wondering if this blog has been lurking in the shadows for quite some time. Huh ? Where ? When ? Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
Daugan Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies. 19	Posted - 2016.02.25 16:17:47 - [340] - Quote https://www.themittani.com/news/three-developers-depart-ccp-games

Catt Stevens Shadow Legion X The Bastion 78	Posted - 2016.02.25 16:19:52 - [341] - Quote ...sigh.... I really liked CCP Socks..... :(
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 22	Posted - 2016.02.25 16:22:31 - [342] - Quote Spcius Patrouette wrote: 15 pages. still no response from CCP. cool. this is why i now have 5/15 accounts unsubbed now, sold four characters, and have taken down 1 of my wormholes. Im just going to keep going until they either respond or until I've turned off all of my accounts.
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 97	Posted - 2016.02.25 16:34:23 - [343] - Quote Provide a list of overlays and third party apps that you consider to be banable. You provide minimal examples of what you consider ok, but no comprehensive list of what you consider to be not ok. This is too vague. The risk is inconsistency and unfairness where one instance may receive a ban and another of the same add-on being overlooked. Failure to provide a comprehensive list and guideline will only be seen as consent to use whatever the player wishes whenever they wish. You can not have it both ways devs, you can't provide such a vague list and "reserve the right" to wield the banhammer.
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 23	Posted - 2016.02.25 16:37:34 - [344] - Quote Daugan wrote: https://www.themittani.com/news/three-developers-depart-ccp-games okay, well its official. the dev in charge of supporting third party apps is out. so i think we all have our answer.
Chekov Nikahd Viziam Amarr Empire 7	Posted - 2016.02.25 18:27:57 - [345] - Quote Som Boty wrote: this is why i now have 5/15 accounts unsubbed now, sold four characters, and have taken down 1 of my wormholes. Im just going to keep going until they either respond or until I've turned off all of my accounts. Contract your stuff to Chekov Nikahd, he'll know what to do with it.
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 24	Posted - 2016.02.25 18:34:44 - [346] - Quote Chekov Nikahd wrote: Som Boty wrote: this is why i now have 5/15 accounts unsubbed now, sold four characters, and have taken down 1 of my wormholes. Im just going to keep going until they either respond or until I've turned off all of my accounts. Contract your stuff to Chekov Nikahd, he'll know what to do with it. no way im ever giving up my space bux. im going the way of the pharaohs, party in tomb tonight bois!
Lando Cenvax State War Academy Caldari State 17	Posted - 2016.02.25 20:22:43 - [347] - Quote Didn't read all comments, so this might have been discussed already...: Merging multiple EVE Windows' information into a e.g. an overlay is obviously not acceptable. CCP should consider here that simply using more screens (or high-res-screens) achieves a similar result. Athough not everyone can afford said multi-screen setups. So I wouldn't swing the ban-hammer because of that... Just my 2 cents... Also, as an IT admin myself, I completely disagree with the policy of "frequently changing very complex passwords". This, frankly, only makes sense in very very few scenarios. Let me briefly elaborate why: complex passwords: only make sense against bruteforce and dictionary attacks. These attacks are only possible if the servers are configured wrongly (speaking of lack of tarpiting and/or account login attempt limitation) frequently changing: only makes sense if someone logs in from untrusted environment (keyloggers!). (At your own machine run a decent AV and adwscanner frequently. Don't install crapware. Always use "advanced settings" when installing "freeware".) Conclusion: if both of the above is the case, the answer is still not "frequently changing very complex passwords", but 2 step auth. Which is in place. By asking the players chars name when entering from an unknown IP a (cheap) 2 step auth process is already active in the old launcher. I didn't try the new launcher yet, but with real 2 step auth this security beyond online banking. Even this forum uses strong security (TLS 1.2 with AES 256). If that isn't enough, what is? (Considering this is still an MMO)
Memphis Baas 1206	Posted - 2016.02.25 20:46:59 - [348] - Quote Alissa Solette wrote: What about gaming hardware? 1. Is it a bannable offense to have a single button on your G15 keyboard activate two or three modules at a time? 2. Or overheat only 2 high slots instead of the entire rack? 3. Where is the limit of whats allowed when it comes to specialized gaming periphery? I can answer that, actually: 1. Yes it's bannable. 2. Yes that's bannable too. 3. The limit is this: 1 keypress = 1 action. I used to have to press Ctrl-Shift-E to engage drones, now I press G3. That's allowed. Pressing G3 to activate all hardeners = bannable. Pressing G3 to emulate a single mouse click = allowed. Pressing G3 to send a wall of text to Jita local chat, so you can scam with text and links to your contracts = bannable. There is a grey area, though: You can fully control the EVE UI with just the keyboard. You can set focus to the Overview, arrow down till you select your target, then press the target lock key. Can be done with a non-programmable keyboard. If you do it with the mouse, it's one keypress: Ctrl-click on the target in the overview locks it. So the grey area is this: would a G15 macro that does [overview focus], down arrow, down arrow, down arrow, down arrow, ctrl-click be illegal?
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 877	Posted - 2016.02.25 20:57:29 - [349] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: Alissa Solette wrote: What about gaming hardware? 1. Is it a bannable offense to have a single button on your G15 keyboard activate two or three modules at a time? 2. Or overheat only 2 high slots instead of the entire rack? 3. Where is the limit of whats allowed when it comes to specialized gaming periphery? I can answer that, actually: 1. Yes it's bannable. 2. Yes that's bannable too. 3. The limit is this: 1 keypress = 1 action. I used to have to press Ctrl-Shift-E to engage drones, now I press G3. That's allowed. Pressing G3 to activate all hardeners = bannable. Pressing G3 to emulate a single mouse click = allowed. Pressing G3 to send a wall of text to Jita local chat, so you can scam with text and links to your contracts = bannable. There is a grey area, though: You can fully control the EVE UI with just the keyboard. You can set focus to the Overview, arrow down till you select your target, then press the target lock key. Can be done with a non-programmable keyboard. If you do it with the mouse, it's one keypress: Ctrl-click on the target in the overview locks it. So the grey area is this: would a G15 macro that does [overview focus], down arrow, down arrow, down arrow, down arrow, ctrl-click be illegal? 2. Is fine, you can overheat any individual modules you want just using the ingame shortcuts. Not sure what the default is, but for me its alt-F1 to overheat the module in the F1 position, then alt-F2 etc. Edit: Or even use the tiny button on the module icons. I always forget those.
Praal Bearded BattleBears I N F A M O U S 22	Posted - 2016.02.25 21:21:40 - [350] - Quote Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Memphis Baas wrote: Alissa Solette wrote: 2. Or overheat only 2 high slots instead of the entire rack? 2. Yes that's bannable too. 2. Is fine, you can overheat any individual modules you want just using the ingame shortcuts. Not sure what the default is, but for me its alt-F1 to overheat the module in the F1 position, then alt-F2 etc. The issue is if you press G5 to overheat high slots 1,3 and 5. Because your 1 keypress (G5) presses Alt+F1, Alt+F3 and Alt+F5 for you.

Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 877	Posted - 2016.02.25 21:27:34 - [351] - Quote Praal wrote: Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote: Memphis Baas wrote: Alissa Solette wrote: 2. Or overheat only 2 high slots instead of the entire rack? 2. Yes that's bannable too. 2. Is fine, you can overheat any individual modules you want just using the ingame shortcuts. Not sure what the default is, but for me its alt-F1 to overheat the module in the F1 position, then alt-F2 etc. The issue is if you press G5 to overheat high slots 1,3 and 5. Because your 1 keypress (G5) presses Alt+F1, Alt+F3 and Alt+F5 for you. Ah, I missed that from Allissa's original post.
Shadoroth KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 16	Posted - 2016.02.25 21:44:14 - [352] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: Pressing G3 to send a wall of text to Jita local chat, so you can scam with text and links to your contracts = bannable. Ctrl+C bannable. Gotcha.
Kinete Jenius Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 114	Posted - 2016.02.25 21:48:35 - [353] - Quote Proxay wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: [quote=Catt Stevens][quote=Lucas Kell] but if you get picked up by their analysis as having done anything bad you'll get banned, but we know full well that there's a lot of legitimate gameplay that will look just like illegitimate gameplay. Again I point out that this is OK, but this is not OK.. Your examples are correct. The second example allows multiple clients to be controlled from a single application focus, without needing to bring each individual full game client to the front of your screen. You can tile the windows in the first example, but you need to very precisely sequentially click through them in that exact order to execute orders on the clients. After one round of click-throughs, you need to spend several seconds/a minute re-layering each window in the right focus order in order to repeat this cycle again. This is simply unmanageable and useless outside of travelling around/non-active gameplay. Going back to your second example, it allows all those clients to be managed without this hassle, and more actively and beyond what most players have access to do. See this? This is the kind of **** that shouldn't be possible in EVE, it allows one player to control 11 Algos' in PVP simultaneously, allowing for outcomes that shouldn't be possible. Scale this up to larger entities, you have players deploying a dozen dreads from one player using 3rd Party Client Management tools to control all of them far more efficiently than if they had to click through each of the clients one-by-one. I've managed up to 4 clients simultaneously without 3rd party tools for Escalations and general EVE stuff (one hauling, links, pvp ship, something sitting idle) - it's hard to actively manage more than 2 clients at once using Windowed Mode. I don't believe that CCP ever intended for a single player to control 11 accounts simultaneously in active PVP, try doing this kind of thing without ISBoxer or other tools that allow clients to be overlaid and pinned on top of each other in a way that allows interaction with each, without Windows adjusting forward focus/on top layering of the currently selected window. You're being deliberately dense if you can't see that clear distinction between these things (using what they provide, and modifying the usage of their client through 3rd party apps), but you're even denser if you can't see that it's tied to a massive post about RMTing. They're giving a heads up to people using ISBoxer to print ISK all day in whatever way they do, for RMTing purposes. After this heads up it's ban-town folks. The Stormtrooper dude with his 11 Algos isn't their target or focus, they don't really care about that guy, he's an anomaly. They care about those printing isk all day and want to have a rule to point to when they ban those accounts. It's not hard to run multiple clients. Here I am running 12 on two machines with three total windows. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ4LByLY5T4 My current setup has 10 of the clients tiled on one machine. OTA ticks are now around 6 minutes (5:50-6:10) NMC ticks are now around 7 minutes NCO ticks are also around 7 minutes I cannot see the algos link but I think I know who you're talking about and he just uses drone assist with a primary DDD. It's almost trivial to do. I could get fancy and use the OS features that focus on hover and other things to prevent even having to click through the clients. Windows 10 itself has some nifty features for doing such things. I don't have to arrange the cap bar to be visible as watchlist does that well enough for my activities.
Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 15	Posted - 2016.02.25 21:54:53 - [354] - Quote Another day without dearly needed clarifications. Well done.
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 28	Posted - 2016.02.25 22:18:29 - [355] - Quote Koenig Yazria wrote: Another day without dearly needed clarifications. Well done. When this thread started I had 16 accounts subbed. 48 hours later and I'm down to 8. Keep it up CCP!
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 1129	Posted - 2016.02.26 00:00:50 - [356] - Quote Catt Stevens wrote: Primary This Rifter wrote: stg slate wrote: ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. You can't use EVEMon or EFT anymore. Let's see how you react. You are a fool, if you actually read the dev blog you would understand that is not the case, but since you just want to throw rocks you choose to do so without any actual facts. Don't worry you will catch up eventually. It was an analogy you moron, I'm well aware CCP is not banning those programs.
Alundil Isogen 5 1091	Posted - 2016.02.26 00:14:48 - [357] - Quote So about those updates....or that clarity..... I'm right behind you
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6949	Posted - 2016.02.26 03:01:13 - [358] - Quote Alundil wrote: So about those updates....or that clarity..... Should've just named this thread like the other one in general. "Update regarding Overlays" Kinete Jenius wrote: Here I am running 12 on two machines with three total monitors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ4LByLY5T4 My current setup has 10 of the clients tiled on one machine. OTA ticks are now around 6 minutes (5:50-6:10) NMC ticks are now around 7 minutes NCO ticks are also around 7 minutes I cannot see the algos link but I think I know who you're talking about and he just uses drone assist with a primary DDD. It's almost trivial to do. I could get fancy and use the OS features that focus on hover and other things to prevent even having to click through the clients. Windows 10 itself has some nifty features for doing such things. I don't have to arrange the cap bar to be visible as watchlist does that well enough for my activities. Mmm drone assist. Definitely the way to go when coordinating DPS of several ships. it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players http://eveboard.com/ranks
SEVISGEN Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 3	Posted - 2016.02.26 04:25:22 - [359] - Quote any information at all would be great friends.....
Mark O'Helm Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt 128	Posted - 2016.02.26 05:35:00 - [360] - Quote SEVISGEN wrote: any information at all would be great friends..... Be aware, what you ask for... http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/overlays-isk-buyer-amnesty-and-account-security/?_ga=1.216755862.1223706813.1445118733 "Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen."(Zitat eines Singles) "Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind."(Zitat von einem, dem es egal ist)

Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33421	Posted - 2016.02.26 06:24:06 - [361] - Quote Uh. I launched a client and forgot about it, and left it under my browser. Then it was very odd to me that I could hear EVE sounds as my mouse moved around the screen. Apparently my mouse location was registering in the EVE client when it was hidden behind another window? Is this new? Am I going to be penalized for a false positive if I find myself in a similar scenario in the future? Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Shadoroth KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 16	Posted - 2016.02.26 06:35:45 - [362] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: Uh. I launched a client and forgot about it, and left it under my browser. Then it was very odd to me that I could hear EVE sounds as my mouse moved around the screen. Apparently my mouse location was registering in the EVE client when it was hidden behind another window? Is this new? Am I going to be penalized for a false positive if I find myself in a similar scenario in the future? Don't lie. You were looking at dotlan you cheater. Enjoy your ban.
Ravana 729 Imperial Guardians 22	Posted - 2016.02.26 08:18:29 - [363] - Quote "the use of programs that provide in-game overlays (Mumble, Teamspeak) is not something we plan to actively police at this time." This sentence makes me insane. Oh tell me again how you are not going to kill your player base by not doing something totally stupid. Looking forward to more obvious overlord lording over us press releases from communist central.
Gaia Gaea Loisish 0	Posted - 2016.02.26 08:37:14 - [364] - Quote I can position the Windows as I prefer. I can be on the second monitor everything that is forbidden for people with one monitor. Now I'm officially in a more privileged position than those with just one monitor. Thank you for that raiseth me above filthy rogue with one monitor! Love you CCP! P. S. Dear CCP when, for example, put white people in a more privileged position than blacks please notify me in advance. I'm not a Nazi, but I do have such friends. Maybe I will be able to tell them the glad news for them.
Delt0r Garsk Shits N Giggles 485	Posted - 2016.02.26 10:25:01 - [365] - Quote Well all i can say, is i will just unsub my last 2 accounts if this goes through/not clarified properly and bloody soon. You advertised power of two and crap. I was up to 5 accounts, now two. Soon to be zero. So long and thanks for all the fish. AKA the scientist. Death and Glory! Well fun is also good.
tasman devil HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded 71	Posted - 2016.02.26 12:10:58 - [366] - Quote CCP Phantom wrote: Team Security comes with interesting news - as always! This time we clarify the use of third party tools and overlays. Additionally we have an ISK Buyer Amnesty available under certain conditions! Read more about these interesting news in the latest dev blog from Team Security Overlays, ISK Buyer Amnesty and Account Security Useless graph is useless... Also: this DEV post doesn't make heads or tail for me. Just give us a friggin' LIST of what programs are ALLOWED and then end of story. Any third party who would like to get on that list should mail CCP and detail their tool (and also give sample .exe or something). Someone in CCP looks into it, gives a green light, END. OF. STORY. Does this mean 1 workforce has to be installed to monitor it? Probably, but that 1 person is still cheaper than maintaining the code or include the missing functionalities into the game... FTHU I don't belive in reincarnation I've never believed in it in my previous lives either...
Memphis Baas 1209	Posted - 2016.02.26 13:30:33 - [367] - Quote Ravana 729 wrote: "players doing something is not something we plan to actively police at this time." I agree with Ravana; what is the point of making a statement like that? The "at this time" is a threat, like we should be worried about whatever we're doing. As if it's illegal, just not yet. A statement like that just causes stress and frustration, it has no other purpose. Instead of phrasing things like threats, just state what's illegal now, and at the point in time when you decide to no longer allow teamspeak overlays, POST A BLOG THEN. Don't threaten us with a future thing that may not even happen. Because, we're not shooting monuments in Jita and causing you to fire another 20% of your employees... FOR NOW.
Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 17	Posted - 2016.02.26 14:34:24 - [368] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: Ravana 729 wrote: "players doing something is not something we plan to actively police at this time." I agree with Ravana; what is the point of making a statement like that? The "at this time" is a threat, like we should be worried about whatever we're doing. As if it's illegal, just not yet. A statement like that just causes stress and frustration, it has no other purpose. Instead of phrasing things like threats, just state what's illegal now, and at the point in time when you decide to no longer allow teamspeak overlays, POST A BLOG THEN. Don't threaten us with a future thing that may not even happen. Because, we're not shooting monuments in Jita and causing you to fire another 20% of your employees... FOR NOW. That threat (caused by poor wording I guess) makes me cringe. Imagine if you are forced to use Eve-Voice. Because, you know, third party software gives you an unfair advantage. I say threat because I dare you to "just for jokes" say "I'm not going to bomb this plane , for now". I don't recommend doing it because like literally anyone will take it as a legit threat and not anything else.
PI DATA 0	Posted - 2016.02.26 14:45:18 - [369] - Quote we don't get a response here? as a customer, spending my money into your business for years, i feel dumped. React on your customers needs and don't ignore them would be a option -_-

CCP Grimmi C C P C C P Alliance 95	Posted - 2016.02.26 15:40:36 - [370] - Quote Thanks everyone for your feedback! Here are our comments to the points raised. We think this should answer most of the questions in the thread. First, nothing has changed. This is not an update to our rules and policies but rather a clarification. Dart Aurel wrote: There are 2 questions regarding windows switching policy points: 1. Is it prohibited to have 2 clients open and visible each on its own monitor? 2. I play EVE Online under Linux + Wine. Also I have tiled WM (xmonad) which allows to switch windows really fast (<50ms delay). Is this fair use or is it an exploit? 1. Surprise, we are not banning monitors. Assuming all EVE Clients are used as shipped by CCP then this is fine. 2. We do not see any issues with this. Switching between the EVE Client windows is part of regular and very welcome multiboxing. Being good at it is not a ban-able offense Mail Lite wrote: Just wanted to check with you about 'Pirates Little Helper'. It is a programme were you CTRL-A CTRL+C in local and it brings it up out of game, you get little icons which show what militia they are in, whether they are known to be link toons or whether they USE link toons. It also shows how many of each corp/alliance or in local without trolling though them. It gives you instant access to their KB, their last KB activity and what their 3 favourite ships are. It also gives the average number of pilots on all of their killmails (good for identifying gangs/bait) Can you confirm this is something that is ok to use? Applications/tools that do modify the client, do extract or try to interpret any information from within the clients window, do interact with the client (sending data/keystrokes to the client window), do inject anything into the clients memory or try to interact with the client in any way which cannot be achieved without using said applications/tools, are not allowed. As of today, the tool you are asking about, 'Pirates Little Helper', is a stand alone application which does not do any of the above to/with the EVE Client and we therefore do not see any reason to outlaw its usage. Koz Katral wrote: ... But what about eve preview? in theory it should be ok because it doesn't isolate any individual elements and just displays the entire client window. ... Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode, no matter how large or small they are scaled, like it is done by EVE-O Preview as of today, are fine with us. These overlays do not allow any direct interaction with the EVE Client and you have to bring the respective EVE Client to the front/put the window focus on it, in order to interact with it. Nikolai Agnon wrote: ... Summarized question: Am I allowed to have specific EVE Client windows pinned to all of my virtual desktops in order to, for example, keep the EVE Clients with my scout Characters in my line of sight at any point in time and no matter on which virtual desktop I am? ... Yes, absolutely. Matthew Reddy wrote: Can i use ISBoxer for window management as long as i do not broadcast?. Can i get a clear answer on this. Yes, window management, of unmodified/untampered EVE Client windows, is allowed using ISBoxer or any other applications/tools. Papa Django wrote: ... A last question, is your detection methodology takes account about pvp or not ? I do not do pvp anymore. I do industry and trade. What kind of "unfair advantages" could i have in this case ? All activity within the game world is subject to our detection methodology. With all players on a single server and in direct competition with each other even your trade and industry activities are PvP. Any type of automation would give you unfair advantages, for example. Knitram Relik wrote: "For your honesty and cooperation,-áwhich is sincerely appreciated,-áyou will not be banned. Other actions will be determined on a case by case basis." I doubt you'll get many people to tell on themselves for RMT unless they are 110% guaranteed no ban, negative account balance, etc. I figure they've already taken the risk and gotten away with it (or so they think). Why take a chance and tell on themselves unless they KNOW nothing bad will come of it? We will not ban you if you come forward with useful and actionable information. A Nony Mouse wrote: How will you differentiate between operating systems which allow overlay like behaviour for task switching and overlay tools. Windows 10 for example lets you see multiple windows in large enough thumbnails to read and monitor just by pressing Windows + Tab. We do not necessarily need to differentiate between different systems. If the logs show activity that should not be possible through normal means, we will take action. Rain6637 wrote: Say I have eight screens next to each other in a 2x4 grid, and several of them are scouts in neighboring systems, or cloaked on every hole in a wormhole chain. I don't use any client overlays because they're all side by side and I can see them just fine. Am I breaking rules about unfair advantages? We are not banning monitors. Assuming all EVE Clients are used as shipped by CCP then this is fine Lucas Kell wrote: CCP As an example, this is something that is readily achievable with EVE-O preview. Would as setup like this be against the EULA? Having many clients visible at the same time is not something we intend to ban. Also, a lot of people have asked for lists of allowed applications/tools. We cannot sanction 3rd party programs that we do not create or have any control over. Period. We may tolerate the use of applications or tools that enhance your enjoyment of the game. This is done at our discretion and only as long as no unfair advantages are gained by you or others by the use of said a...


EvilweaselFinance BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 807	Posted - 2016.02.26 15:55:37 - [371] - Quote I don't have any questions but I do really appreciate the clarity in that mega-response to questions.
lost packet Alpha Flight Almost Broken 93	Posted - 2016.02.26 15:59:24 - [372] - Quote CCP Grimmi wrote: Thanks everyone for your feedback! Here are our comments to the points raised. We think this should answer most of the questions in the thread. First, nothing has changed. This is not an update to our rules and policies but rather a clarification. Matthew Reddy wrote: Can i use ISBoxer for window management as long as i do not broadcast?. Can i get a clear answer on this. Yes, window management, of unmodified/untampered EVE Client windows, is allowed using ISBoxer or any other applications/tools. Good enough for my concerns, thank you very much for providing this particular clarification. +1 Alpha Flight are recruiting pilots \| Almost Broken are recruiting corporations
Niraia Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory. 404	Posted - 2016.02.26 16:03:35 - [373] - Quote Thanks GÖÑ GÖÑ
Tom Uchonela Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2016.02.26 16:05:33 - [374] - Quote Thank you for the clarification CCP Grimmi!
Dave Stark 7879	Posted - 2016.02.26 16:17:27 - [375] - Quote just out of curiosity. what are you trying to achieve by banning overlays? whether i look 1 inch to the left at an overview on an overlay, or 4 inches to my left at a totally separate instance of the game - i'm still getting real time intel from another client. which was your dev blog example of an "unfair advantage". it's either unfair, or it isn't, you seem to have only outlawed it in certain cases. it's just very difficult to see what you're trying to achieve with such a contradictory policy. it seems to make very little sense.
Annexe I N E X T R E M I S Tactical Narcotics Team 25	Posted - 2016.02.26 16:25:13 - [376] - Quote Do these new policies include key macros? ie: using 1 key to trigger multiple keys. And how does CCP intend on enforcing these policies without being able to monitor the users actions first hand? Annexe ITAI - VIP "i will pop your wreck with faction loot"
Robnik Charante Reasonable People Of Sound Mind 22	Posted - 2016.02.26 16:28:08 - [377] - Quote Thank you, based CCP Grimmi. I was very concerned with the language of the policy as-written but your clarifications have allayed my concerns. I do wish you had a 3rd party whitelist, but as long as you are willing to provide clarifications about acceptable use then I see no issue. Thanks again. \o/
Red Single State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.02.26 16:28:25 - [378] - Quote Quote: Applications/tools that do modify the client, do extract or try to interpret any information from within the clients window, do interact with the client (sending data/keystrokes to the client window), do inject anything into the clients memory or try to interact with the client in any way which cannot be achieved without using said applications/tools, are not allowed. Does this include programs that allow pass though clicks/keypress?
Fletchter Dropbears Anonymous Friendly Probes 1	Posted - 2016.02.26 16:37:51 - [379] - Quote The clarification is good. But can we get a 'Why' explanation in regards to the changes with cut up windows/overlay? Are the people dual boxing logi the problem? The solo Miner/Incursion fleet guys?
Max Kolonko WATAHA. Fidelas Constans 590	Posted - 2016.02.26 16:46:37 - [380] - Quote Annexe wrote: Do these new policies include key macros? ie: using 1 key to trigger multiple keys. And how does CCP intend on enforcing these policies without being able to monitor the users actions first hand? there are no new policies, only clarification. key macro (multiple action via single key) is a no-no since like forever As for the second question CCP will never tell You how they detection software works, but do read on anomalies detection a little. Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?

Praal Bearded BattleBears I N F A M O U S 22	Posted - 2016.02.26 16:47:23 - [381] - Quote Thank you for your answers! A few follow-ups One part of multiboxing window management is often removing the window border of a client (borderless window). Is this allowed as window management or banned as a modification of the client? Can you confirm if the non-gameplay uses of broadcasting specifically allowed In this dev post (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=387571) are still allowed now? Is your detection system able to differentiate between the availability / use of forbidden practices on the system (for other apps / games) and their use with the EVE client. For example: I have ISBoxer. I use it for window management only with EVE. I use it for window management and broadcasting with EverQuest (not at the same time). Are you able to recognize that my broadcasting config applies to a different game and the EVE client is not receiving / sending broadcasts? I have AutoHotkey and use it so speed-up certain work-related taks. If I have EVE running (but not being the focus window) and I use a hotkey which sends multiple keystrokes to a non-EVE app (say a telnet client), are you able to recognize that the 1-press-many-actions that happened did not involve the EVE client?
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7358	Posted - 2016.02.26 16:47:31 - [382] - Quote Thanks Grimmi CCP Grimmi wrote: Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode, no matter how large or small they are scaled, like it is done by EVE-O Preview as of today, are fine with us. These overlays do not allow any direct interaction with the EVE Client and you have to bring the respective EVE Client to the front/put the window focus on it, in order to interact with it. Just to clarify on this note, cutting up a windows is not allowed as you've put here, it has to be a full unchanged window, but what about if people layer their windows in such a way that only the relevant part of each is displayed? As I pointed out in a previous post, this is OK, but this is not OK. It seems like an entirely ridiculous distinction. I can understand why disallowing the ability to click through on those segments of windows would be impossible, but for viewing only, people will be able to see parts of inactive windows simply by layout alone, and the worry people have is that by doing it they will get banned as there's no way to really prove they weren't using a cut out overview/ship status vs layered windows (or window previews). You see, this: CCP Grimmi wrote: We do not necessarily need to differentiate between different systems. If the logs show activity that should not be possible through normal means, we will take action. Is the most important part to me, ensuring that there's enough of a distinction to ensure people aren't just being banned because they are cleverly using their screen/window management tools and window previews. With EVE-O preview (and now with windows 10 features alone) people can achieve a pretty high level of efficiency, certainly what would be considered an advantage over those that don't use it (which is why people bother to use it in the first place). I think a lot of people just want to be assured that they won't suddenly be banned because they've become "too efficient" while they still follow the rules completely. Because let's face it, being able to rapidly switch between 16 clients certainly would achieve things that aren't achievable "through normal means". The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Max Kolonko WATAHA. Fidelas Constans 590	Posted - 2016.02.26 16:49:04 - [383] - Quote Praal wrote: Thank you for your answers! A few follow-ups One part of multiboxing window management is often removing the window border of a client (borderless window). Is this allowed as window management or banned as a modification of the client? Can you confirm if the non-gameplay uses of broadcasting specifically allowed In this dev post (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=387571) are still allowed now? Is your detection system able to differentiate between the availability / use of forbidden practices on the system (for other apps / games) and their use with the EVE client. For example: I have ISBoxer. I use it for window management only with EVE. I use it for window management and broadcasting with EverQuest (not at the same time). Are you able to recognize that my broadcasting config applies to a different game and the EVE client is not receiving / sending broadcasts? I have AutoHotkey and use it so speed-up certain work-related taks. If I have EVE running (but not being the focus window) and I use a hotkey which sends multiple keystrokes to a non-EVE app (say a telnet client), are you able to recognize that the 1-press-many-actions that happened did not involve the EVE client? CCP does not minitor app You run, they just see keystrokes send to client faster than humanly possible, over and over and ban :) Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Fifth Blade Jump Drive Appreciation Society 70	Posted - 2016.02.26 16:49:50 - [384] - Quote CCP Grimmi wrote: Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode, no matter how large or small they are scaled, like it is done by EVE-O Preview as of today, are fine with us. These overlays do not allow any direct interaction with the EVE Client and you have to bring the respective EVE Client to the front/put the window focus on it, in order to interact with it. What about applications which display only a portion of the eve client in preview mode, such as ontopreplica showing the local user list from a scout? This is a major use-case for a lot of people.
Kinete Jenius Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 114	Posted - 2016.02.26 16:54:42 - [385] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: Uh. I launched a client and forgot about it, and left it under my browser. Then it was very odd to me that I could hear EVE sounds as my mouse moved around the screen. Apparently my mouse location was registering in the EVE client when it was hidden behind another window? Is this new? Am I going to be penalized for a false positive if I find myself in a similar scenario in the future? Whenever I have multiple eve clients open (just regular windowed mode) I have noticed that non focused clients will react to mouse movements on the top/focused client. Like when my fleet is docked and I have the clients set to show who else is docked. While I move the mouse around on the top/focused client I can see names being highlighted on the other clients that are beneath. That has always freaked me out.
Praal Bearded BattleBears I N F A M O U S 22	Posted - 2016.02.26 16:56:32 - [386] - Quote Max Kolonko wrote: CCP does not minitor app You run, they just see keystrokes send to client faster than humanly possible, over and over and ban :) I hope so, but would be good to have confirmation that they can (and do) differentiate between key bursts sent to the EVE client, vs key bursts to other applications on the same system while the EVE client is open.
Koenig Yazria Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 17	Posted - 2016.02.26 16:57:23 - [387] - Quote Thank you for your clarification. There are some fringe cases, but I guess you have answered most of the possible cases.
Tavion Aksmis EVE University Ivy League 1	Posted - 2016.02.26 16:59:43 - [388] - Quote Rejoice PLH wont get you banned Also good to know you are not banning monitors, LOL
Chalithra Lathar Rhongomiant Legion Industries The Explicit Alliance 41	Posted - 2016.02.26 17:16:40 - [389] - Quote tl;dr its nothing
Helios Anduath Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 66	Posted - 2016.02.26 17:22:13 - [390] - Quote Fifth Blade wrote: CCP Grimmi wrote: Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode, no matter how large or small they are scaled, like it is done by EVE-O Preview as of today, are fine with us. These overlays do not allow any direct interaction with the EVE Client and you have to bring the respective EVE Client to the front/put the window focus on it, in order to interact with it. What about applications which display only a portion of the eve client in preview mode, such as ontopreplica showing the local user list from a scout? This is a major use-case for a lot of people. Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode, << those words answer your question. Chopped up windows = not OK. Full client = OK. This ties into the original blog where it said elements.

Yarith Unlimited Blade Works. 0	Posted - 2016.02.26 17:28:46 - [391] - Quote Helios Anduath wrote: Fifth Blade wrote: CCP Grimmi wrote: Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode, no matter how large or small they are scaled, like it is done by EVE-O Preview as of today, are fine with us. These overlays do not allow any direct interaction with the EVE Client and you have to bring the respective EVE Client to the front/put the window focus on it, in order to interact with it. What about applications which display only a portion of the eve client in preview mode, such as ontopreplica showing the local user list from a scout? This is a major use-case for a lot of people. Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode, << those words answer your question. Chopped up windows = not OK. Full client = OK. This ties into the original blog where it said elements. OTR can be used to show the entire window or just a part of it. How is CCP going to know if it's being used to show the full eve client, a portion of the eve client or for an entire different program ( like netflix, mpc or even youtube )?
Fifth Blade Jump Drive Appreciation Society 70	Posted - 2016.02.26 17:30:50 - [392] - Quote Helios Anduath wrote: Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode, << those words answer your question. Chopped up windows = not OK. Full client = OK. This ties into the original blog where it said elements. You can use the same application to clone the entire window, then resize it among other things. Which would not break the EULA as described. So does that mean you're banned if you break the rules? Or merely if you use a program which could potentially break said rules? I'll simplify it for you: If it's the former they'll have difficulty distinguishing between actual abuse and normal use of the window management software. If it's the latter you simply cannot use any capable window management software without the risk of being randomly banned (since if it includes the potential to be used that way - you simply cannot risk using it). The distinction is fairly important.
Rawthorm D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two 104	Posted - 2016.02.26 17:42:37 - [393] - Quote Max Kolonko wrote: Praal wrote: Thank you for your answers! A few follow-ups One part of multiboxing window management is often removing the window border of a client (borderless window). Is this allowed as window management or banned as a modification of the client? Can you confirm if the non-gameplay uses of broadcasting specifically allowed In this dev post (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=387571) are still allowed now? Is your detection system able to differentiate between the availability / use of forbidden practices on the system (for other apps / games) and their use with the EVE client. For example: I have ISBoxer. I use it for window management only with EVE. I use it for window management and broadcasting with EverQuest (not at the same time). Are you able to recognize that my broadcasting config applies to a different game and the EVE client is not receiving / sending broadcasts? I have AutoHotkey and use it so speed-up certain work-related taks. If I have EVE running (but not being the focus window) and I use a hotkey which sends multiple keystrokes to a non-EVE app (say a telnet client), are you able to recognize that the 1-press-many-actions that happened did not involve the EVE client? CCP does not minitor app You run, they just see keystrokes send to client faster than humanly possible, over and over and ban :) Actually, the EULA states that CCP may monitor your system. That doesn't mean they do at the moment but they could be and you'd never know it.
Yarith Unlimited Blade Works. 0	Posted - 2016.02.26 17:44:34 - [394] - Quote Helios Anduath wrote: Fifth Blade wrote: CCP Grimmi wrote: Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode, no matter how large or small they are scaled, like it is done by EVE-O Preview as of today, are fine with us. These overlays do not allow any direct interaction with the EVE Client and you have to bring the respective EVE Client to the front/put the window focus on it, in order to interact with it. What about applications which display only a portion of the eve client in preview mode, such as ontopreplica showing the local user list from a scout? This is a major use-case for a lot of people. Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode, << those words answer your question. Chopped up windows = not OK. Full client = OK. This ties into the original blog where it said elements. A) Here you can see an example of how OTR can be used to watch the "This is Eve" trailed on youtube: http://i.imgur.com/hNDGNDE.jpg B) Here you can see an example of how OTR can be used to show the full, unchanged Eve Client: http://imgur.com/QQ6VPs3 C) Here's OTR being used to show only a small portion of the Eve Client: http://i.imgur.com/bDbFJru.jpg A and B should be following the EULA. From what I understand, C isn't ( even tough I can't interact with the client in question via OTR, only see a portion of it. Like, if I try to de-cloak by clicking on the cloak icon on the OTR window, it does absolutely nothing). Is the entire software banned because C is an option? I don't really use it for option C, but I do enjoy watching netflix while playing Eve.
Rawthorm D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two 105	Posted - 2016.02.26 17:50:16 - [395] - Quote Thanks for giving us some clarification. It shouldn't be a big job to change from Isboxer overlays, to just using it to tile clients in the smallest supported size. The end result will be slightly less optimal, but still quite usable. I am wondering however why the rather pedantic distinction? Was forcing us to go from a 1 x 8 client layout to a 2 x 4 client layout to avoid cutting up the displays really worth all this fuss?
Praal Bearded BattleBears I N F A M O U S 22	Posted - 2016.02.26 18:13:56 - [396] - Quote Based on the answers, it sounds like isboxer overlays are still OK if you overlay entire clients (not parts) and do not have clickthrough. So you could probably have a DXNothing window with 8 small tiles to monitor all of them.
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 30	Posted - 2016.02.26 18:45:52 - [397] - Quote Praal wrote: Based on the answers, it sounds like isboxer overlays are still OK if you overlay entire clients (not parts) and do not have clickthrough. So you could probably have a DXNothing window with 8 small tiles to monitor all of them. yeah... until they decide that's bannable too.
Annexe I N E X T R E M I S Tactical Narcotics Team 25	Posted - 2016.02.26 19:08:45 - [398] - Quote Max Kolonko wrote: Annexe wrote: Do these new policies include key macros? ie: using 1 key to trigger multiple keys. And how does CCP intend on enforcing these policies without being able to monitor the users actions first hand? there are no new policies, only clarification. key macro (multiple action via single key) is a no-no since like forever As for the second question CCP will never tell You how they detection software works, but do read on anomalies detection a little. Let me irritate, yes using macro to 'sequence' keys is a no no. Does that include using a single macro function to trigger a single key on-off? Now what if i'm using a mouse that has keyboard keys linked to it. I am still pressing the same key, but without taking my hand off the mouse? Is that an unfair advantage? In other words.. can I play eve with this? Logitech G600 mouse Annexe ITAI - VIP "i will pop your wreck with faction loot"
Anhenka Infinite Point Northern Army 1520	Posted - 2016.02.26 19:27:34 - [399] - Quote Annexe wrote: Now what if i'm using a mouse that has keyboard keys linked to it. I am still pressing the same key, but without taking my hand off the mouse? Is that an unfair advantage? In other words.. can I play eve with this? Logitech G600 mouse This is fine. If you can map something ingame to a keyboard key it's fine to map it to a mouse key. Just can't map multiple things to activate with one mouse press that you couldn't map to a key using only the in game keybinding tools. I love using G8/G9 as Increase/Decrease probe range and middle mouse button to activate scan for example, and it's fine since all I did was open up the ingame mapping and set it to the mouse key. Edit: G8/G9 on my 602, dunno where 8/9 is on that clusterfuck of a mouse.
Brutus Vicktor Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2016.02.26 19:46:03 - [400] - Quote What about the tool that some Hi Sec gankers use to get the value of the cargohold on the fly after they got them scaned? Is that a fair advantage to them against the haulers?

Tiberian Deci Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore 166	Posted - 2016.02.26 19:57:40 - [401] - Quote Som Boty wrote: Koenig Yazria wrote: Another day without dearly needed clarifications. Well done. When this thread started I had 16 accounts subbed. 48 hours later and I'm down to 8. Keep it up CCP! If you can only have fun in this MMO by playing with yourself 16 times over its probably better that you unsub your extra accounts
Archibald Thistlewaite III The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners 878	Posted - 2016.02.26 19:59:36 - [402] - Quote Brutus Vicktor wrote: What about the tool that some Hi Sec gankers use to get the value of the cargohold on the fly after they got them scaned? Is that a fair advantage to them against the haulers? If you mean Evepraisel then that is ok.
Tiberian Deci Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore 166	Posted - 2016.02.26 20:00:08 - [403] - Quote Brutus Vicktor wrote: What about the tool that some Hi Sec gankers use to get the value of the cargohold on the fly after they got them scaned? Is that a fair advantage to them against the haulers? You mean evepraisal where you have to manually scan the freighter, then manually copy paste everything into a window and then manually hit a button? Don't be dense you little whiny baby.
Brutus Vicktor Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2016.02.26 20:25:43 - [404] - Quote Tiberian Deci wrote: Brutus Vicktor wrote: What about the tool that some Hi Sec gankers use to get the value of the cargohold on the fly after they got them scaned? Is that a fair advantage to them against the haulers? You mean evepraisal where you have to manually scan the freighter, then manually copy paste everything into a window and then manually hit a button? Don't be dense you little whiny baby. No, I mean the use of evepraisal with a flavour Pic proof
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33423	Posted - 2016.02.26 20:49:56 - [405] - Quote Rawthorm wrote: Actually, the EULA states that CCP may monitor your system. That doesn't mean they do at the moment but they could be and you'd never know it. Maybe Sreegs is back and the client will start making blind calls for names of known cheat .EXEs Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Som Boty Super Mother Fan Club 31	Posted - 2016.02.26 21:11:38 - [406] - Quote Tiberian Deci wrote: If you can only have fun in this MMO by playing with yourself 16 times over its probably better that you unsub your extra accounts bro or, maybe you should try playing my way before you give advice? I don't clown the way you play.
Praal Bearded BattleBears I N F A M O U S 22	Posted - 2016.02.26 21:48:25 - [407] - Quote Brutus Vicktor wrote: No, I mean the use of evepraisal with a flavour Pic proof Does that extract data from the client (ie. hook the client and read data from it)? Or does it react to the windows clipboard containing something that looks like an EVE copy paste? The first would be bannable, the second is esentially PLH for loot so allowed.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6950	Posted - 2016.02.26 22:49:33 - [408] - Quote Som Boty wrote: Tiberian Deci wrote: If you can only have fun in this MMO by playing with yourself 16 times over its probably better that you unsub your extra accounts bro or, maybe you should try playing my way before you give advice? I don't clown the way you play. Maybe you should try clowning the way they play it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players http://eveboard.com/ranks
Matt Faithbringer Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out. 29	Posted - 2016.02.26 23:03:08 - [409] - Quote CCP Grimmi wrote: ... We do not necessarily need to differentiate between different systems. If the logs show activity that should not be possible through normal means, we will take action. ... Does this mean that when/if windows 10 will allow us to click into small miniatures showed while alt+tab and win10 will sends those click to the apps it will become legal to use scaled-down eve client for controlling the game? Just want to make sure that whatever feature will windows bring I'm ok to use it.
Kalo Askold Sanguis Inceptum Starkmanir Unification 53	Posted - 2016.02.26 23:07:21 - [410] - Quote "All that being said, we wish you a wonderful day in New Eden! Your friendly neighborhood Security Folks" We sacrificed privacy for security, and now the eve server is down. Looks like Ben. Franklin was right; we get neither.

Memphis Baas 1219	Posted - 2016.02.26 23:11:31 - [411] - Quote Praal wrote: Thank you for your answers! A few follow-ups: 1. One part of multiboxing window management is often removing the window border of a client (borderless window). Is this allowed as window management or banned as a modification of the client? 3. Is your detection system able to differentiate between the availability / use of forbidden practices on the system (for other apps / games) and their use with the EVE client. 1. In my opinion, the client has a borderless window mode, so I don't see why they would consider a borderless window management preview as "modification of the client." IMO it should be ok. 3. CCP will never give details about their detection systems. I've had a G15 keyboard with single-key keyboard remaps programmed for EVE, and multi-key scripts for X3AP, for a couple years now, and I think they can tell the difference, but of course this will never be confirmed or denied by CCP because they don't want to give away security secrets.
Digiblast The Collective Collective Company 1	Posted - 2016.02.26 23:38:16 - [412] - Quote Will we be able to run 4 diffrent clients in fixed window mode from 4 diffrent corners of the screen so it will fitt perfectly?
Alundil Isogen 5 1092	Posted - 2016.02.27 03:54:10 - [413] - Quote EvilweaselFinance wrote: I don't have any questions but I do really appreciate the clarity in that mega-response to questions. Not empty quoting. Thank you. I'm right behind you
Neuntausend GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 688	Posted - 2016.02.27 08:42:18 - [414] - Quote Ok. That's a response at least. CCP Grimmi wrote: We do not necessarily need to differentiate between different systems. If the logs show activity that should not be possible through normal means, we will take action. Please define "normal means". Because, that's kind of what the question is about. If we use the client as shipped, and we use our operating system as shipped to create an overlay - is that "normal" or is it not? And while you are at it, please define "ordinary Game play" and "transfer of "content appearing within the Game environment" means. Because pretty much everything in the EULA and your explanations hinges on terms like that.
Mnemosyne Ab aeterno EVE University Ivy League 0	Posted - 2016.02.27 11:17:12 - [415] - Quote So dev dudes, You say in a mail. Using Pirates little helper is ok. But in the ban able offence is any program or application that gives an unfair advantage to another player. So are you going to let other players know about every other mod that is out there? How are new players going to know the right tools or the wrong tools to use? For me knowing a player and who he /she is before they have chance to de-cloak is unfair... so is this now double standards?
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6950	Posted - 2016.02.27 14:38:34 - [416] - Quote Mnemosyne Ab aeterno wrote: So dev dudes, You say in a mail. Using Pirates little helper is ok. But in the ban able offence is any program or application that gives an unfair advantage to another player. So are you going to let other players know about every other mod that is out there? How are new players going to know the right tools or the wrong tools to use? For me knowing a player and who he /she is before they have chance to de-cloak is unfair... so is this now double standards? Maybe after you own someone (or warp off just before they light their cyno) you should put a link to PLH in local just to be sure they can also take advantage of it. CCP Grimmi: With all players on a single server and in direct competition with each other even your trade and industry activities are PvP.
Soltys Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2016.02.27 15:13:58 - [417] - Quote CCP Grimmi wrote: Also, a lot of people have asked for lists of allowed applications/tools. We cannot sanction 3rd party programs that we do not create or have any control over. Period. Of course you can. You already did it with ISBoxer and you can do it with every other tool that is being asked about. Actually this seems to be part of the job, so why even wait ? Just start doing it. The crux is that you're too lazy to do it and prefer that vague bullshit called "EULA" that can be bent and applied to anything at any time as you see fit. Quote: We may tolerate the use of applications or tools that enhance your enjoyment of the game. This is done at our discretion and only as long as no unfair advantages are gained by you or others by the use of said applications or tools. You don't "tolerate". You encourage. The game is nearly unplayable without 3rd party tools either way (masochists aside). Nearly everything provided by those tools is about the "unfair advantage", becuase people not using those tools remain in blind and without the advantage provided by said tools. Starting with trivial stuff like min-maxed ship fits or inter-region market data availabe in one place that the game was deliberately designed not to provide. So please stop with this gigantic hypocrisy. You can start with precisely defining what is and isn't that mysterious "unfair advantage". Quote: Thank you for your attention and fly safe! I'm sure you realise how that sentence makes you look like after that devblog. Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
Memphis Baas 1228	Posted - 2016.02.27 16:18:04 - [418] - Quote I agree. CCP, you can certainly implement a system where 3rd-party devs can submit source code and you can certify that particular version as ok to use; it just requires work and you don't want to do it. You think it's easier to mass ban once things get too far, and that's what you've threatened us with; you don't seem to realize that these threats **** off your community and your 3rd-party devs, ultimately resulting in reduced subs. And also, you've shown no sign of any sort of effort to add some of the useful 3rd-party functionality to the game. As I repeated a couple times already, if we're not allowed to improve upon your game UI, then you have to do it. I'm not gonna say you're lazy, cause you're not, but you've assumed a stance on this whole issue that is quite unprofessional. As evidenced by the derision we have when comparing EVE Central, EFT, PLH, Evernus, and so on (the list is long) vs. the limits the client still imposes on information. You're being taken to school by the 3rd party devs. The whole game is a sandbox: you enjoy players generating content (as do we), and yet you clearly have control over everything in-game. Let us generate content for the UI interface while you retain the same level of control: set up an UI add-ons framework that lets you retain full control and lets us improve the UI, and you can police us that much more closely because the addons hook into the client, rather than existing as 3rd party software installed on our private drives that frankly you have no business searching. That said, I'm gonna drop the topic; I'm repeating myself and it's pointless to continue doing so.
Neuntausend GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 688	Posted - 2016.02.27 19:22:36 - [419] - Quote On a different note - while the effort taken to clear up the obscure phrasing in the EULA in the forums is certainly appreciated, I would like to point out that most players will certainly not dig through a 20 page thread to figure out what the EULA means. I would take a bet and say that most players have not even read the EULA, but those who did should be able to tell what they may or may not do without digging up old dev posts.
Alexis Nightwish 427	Posted - 2016.02.27 20:59:16 - [420] - Quote Question: If a player with a clean account (no previous bans or whatever) comes forward to use the amnesty program, will his account be flagged so that he cannot trade characters, even though he won't receive a ban? CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge EVE Online's "I win!" Button Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Ravana 729 Imperial Guardians 25	Posted - 2016.02.27 21:25:48 - [421] - Quote When other companies do not like an addon, they code their game so it's impossible to use it. My wife plays for me sometimes while I instruct her because of the meds I'm on 90% of the time when I am in fleets or anything requiring extremely fast response time, so I really sympathize with people who would like to use third party apps for completely legitimate reasons. In many other games part of the joy of the game is fastidiously keeping up with addons and for some crazy amazing people, programming them. Many of these companies realize how this is just unpaid work done for them. On a positive note at least they seem to be allowing blue responses? I am pretty sure my wife ragequit her account because of CCP's complete lack of responsiveness to her concerns.
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 33424	Posted - 2016.02.27 22:09:11 - [422] - Quote So... you don't use third party apps you use a third party? That's pretty baller. If I could afford it I would hire people to fly my characters and RP command them in a room set up like the flight deck of the USS Enterprise. Probably even have uniforms. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 0	Posted - 2016.02.28 00:34:05 - [423] - Quote https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=471349&find=unread Windows is a 3rd party application<-----The decision to prohibit people from using portions of each game into one window needs to be reversed. I can understand input automation and broadcasts but this particular part needs to be recinded. You can already almost do it with clever window positioning of the clients. CCP needs to be less about a player cannot get advantage over another and should go in the direction of a account cannot gain a advantage. I run 16 accounts and while i am in compliance with these rulings i feel they need to be changed. :edit If multiboxing is allowed according to the eula...shouldnt someone who is mulitboxing and not cheating or botting as free as possible to make each of those clients approach the same effectivness as if it were their sole account as humanly possible and only take human error and the time to click the buttons into account for any degradation. Nuances matter. Might have legal take another look.
Daemun Khanid Apollo Defence Industries 470	Posted - 2016.02.28 01:38:55 - [424] - Quote Just gonna leave this here... "Third party applications are programs written to work within operating systems, but are written by individuals or companies other than the provider of the operating system. " Eve is a 3rd party app. Not windows. And since operating these 3rd party app's, does most certainly provide an advantage they are correctly and should remain against eula. Daemun of Khanid
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 0	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:00:30 - [425] - Quote Daemun Khanid wrote: Just gonna leave this here... "Third party applications are programs written to work within operating systems, but are written by individuals or companies other than the provider of the operating system. " Eve is a 3rd party app. Not windows. And since operating these 3rd party app's, does most certainly provide an advantage they are correctly and should remain against eula. Stalk much? Windows is a application that operates at a high languge communcating a interface to the computers binary code. Windows is not the computer or the computers native environment.
Areen Sassel 78	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:04:36 - [426] - Quote If we're getting answers, I'd still like to know what this bit of the EULA means: "You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale." EVE characters don't have a level or rank, so what's inappropriate?
Daemun Khanid Apollo Defence Industries 470	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:06:33 - [427] - Quote Just posting in the directed thread. "Windows is a application that operates at a high languge communcating a interface to the computers binary code." Does not make windows a 3rd party app. Besides you can try to play semantics all you want. "having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules." Says it all. Doesn't matter if you like it, doesn't matter how you want to interpret the definition of a 3rd party app. You say you can do the same thing just using windows... then do it. Then the eula won't make any difference. Daemun of Khanid
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 0	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:13:26 - [428] - Quote Daemun Khanid wrote: Just posting in the directed thread. "Windows is a application that operates at a high languge communcating a interface to the computers binary code." Does not make windows a 3rd party app. Besides you can try to play semantics all you want. "having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules." Says it all. Doesn't matter if you like it, doesn't matter how you want to interpret the definition of a 3rd party app. You say you can do the same thing just using windows... then do it. Then the eula won't make any difference. A. It makes windows a app and last i checked ccp does not have any IP on windows. B.If the issue is getting real time data without clicking on the client then that would mean running more than 1 app at a time would be a bannable offense because having more than one window does give real time data. words matter. I feel you have been pretty outdone. Thanks for playing.
Daemun Khanid Apollo Defence Industries 470	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:21:06 - [429] - Quote Just gonna post this for you one more time... "Third party applications are programs written to work within operating systems, but are written by individuals or companies other than the provider of the operating system. " And from another source... "Third party software refers to programs that are developed by companies other than the company that developed the computer's operating system." So unless you can tell me what operating system windows operates under then you're just continuing to speak out of the wrong orifice. Your argument reeks of desperation at defending your isk cow. Your own argument defeats itself. The ability to combine multiple client interface elements into a single window unarguably presents an advantage to the user. Your own arguments state that, although you claim you can do the same thing with windows itself without 3rd party software, doing so is more difficult. So there you go, the extra software makes it easier i.e. present an advantage. Daemun of Khanid
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 0	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:22:51 - [430] - Quote Daemun Khanid wrote: Just gonna post this for you one more time... "Third party applications are programs written to work within operating systems, but are written by individuals or companies other than the provider of the operating system. " And from another source... "Third party software refers to programs that are developed by companies other than the company that developed the computer's operating system." So unless you can tell me what operating system windows operates under then you're just continuing to speak out of the wrong orifice. Your argument reeks of desperation at defending your isk cow. You keep posting a quote from wisegeeks like it matters?

Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 141	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:24:48 - [431] - Quote Am I supposed to read 20 pages which would be more than technical? Or am I supposed to read 10 pages which would be technical? Or am I supposed to read 4 pages which would be more manageable? Or am I supposed to read 1 or 2 pages to make it easier to deal with? I think that to expect CCP to do things that would hinder them or be worst to them is going to lead to that and other obvious consequences. Why and how could they implement 3rd party systems which are allowed even though it would cause too much stress on their system to try to implement them or integrate them? Why should they publish system designs which were created to keep the system functional if it is going to be used against them? I won't go over the rest of the details in this thread at this time yet. There exists such thing as feasibility. The fact that they kept the game feasible after all those years already is their greatest achievement and record. I don't even think that it is possible for them to know all the details internally at all times. I can't even program in Python yet which is one of the main coding requirements for this (coding) system. It is in great part what allowed them to port legacy code with such efficiency (if not the most, as mentionned above). Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 0	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:24:52 - [432] - Quote "a program (as a word processor or a spreadsheet) that performs one of the major tasks for which a computer is used" from the dictionary. Id say being a interface that communicates high language to binary fits that role.
Daemun Khanid Apollo Defence Industries 470	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:26:03 - [433] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: Just gonna post this for you one more time... "Third party applications are programs written to work within operating systems, but are written by individuals or companies other than the provider of the operating system. " And from another source... "Third party software refers to programs that are developed by companies other than the company that developed the computer's operating system." So unless you can tell me what operating system windows operates under then you're just continuing to speak out of the wrong orifice. Your argument reeks of desperation at defending your isk cow. You keep posting a quote from wisegeeks like it matters? Edit: look up the definition of third party software for yourself. The source doesn't matter the answer is the same. (hence the second source definition I added in on that last post) Daemun of Khanid
Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 141	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:29:46 - [434] - Quote Daemun Khanid wrote: ...what operating system windows operates under then ... Windows does not operate under an operating system for the simple reason that it is an operating system. Negative logic rule. Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:30:21 - [435] - Quote Daemun Khanid wrote: Death Reactor wrote: "a program (as a word processor or a spreadsheet) that performs one of the major tasks for which a computer is used" from the dictionary. Id say being a interface that communicates high language to binary fits that role. Making up your own definitions doesn't really have binding on a EULA written up by lawyers that are better at this whole semantics game than you are. Sorry i didnt make it up. the dictionary did. Lot more credible than your wisegeeks link. Simply put when you get to the heart of it windows is a application and words matter and any lawyer will tell you this. 3rd party application is any application not developed by ccp.
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:31:07 - [436] - Quote Buzz Orti wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: ...what operating system windows operates under then ... Windows does not operate under an operating system for the simple reason that it is an operating system. Negative logic rule. Doesnt need to operate under a operating system.
Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 141	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:35:09 - [437] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: ...windows is a application and words matter and any lawyer will tell you this. 3rd party application is any application not developed by ccp. 3rd party application in relation to ccp are other entities than the client - server. The server, ccp, is a party, the client, user is a second party, the 3rd party application programs (software and/or hardware) are a third party. Just because someone makes an operating system that ccp can run under or with doesn't mean that it is not a 3rd party. Windows also runs on it's own software by the way, as it does run on IBM hardware and clone as well. Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Daemun Khanid Apollo Defence Industries 470	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:35:13 - [438] - Quote Buzz Orti wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: ...what operating system windows operates under then ... Windows does not operate under an operating system for the simple reason that it is an operating system. Negative logic rule. My point exactly. Daemun of Khanid
Daemun Khanid Apollo Defence Industries 470	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:38:58 - [439] - Quote One Two Three Four As I said before...It's all moot anyway. "We do not endorse or condone the use of player-made software or any other third party applications or software that confers an unfair benefit to players. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay. However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, or is used for purposes beyond its intended use, or if the application or other software violates other parts of the EULA, we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans. Please use player-made or other third party software at your own risk." "We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules." Doesn't matter how you define a 3rd party app CCP go the extra mile and not only put the ball SOLELY in their court in determining what they will and will not allow but they also give very specific examples as to what they will NOT allow. Have a nice day. Daemun of Khanid
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7364	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:42:37 - [440] - Quote Daemun Khanid wrote: One Two Three Four You can pop as many definitions as you want, it's pretty much irrelevant. A third party application is any application not developed by the first party developer. In this case the first party developer would be CCP, so they class anything outside of EVE as third party, including the operating system. You cannot chop up your EVE client regardless of whether or not you are doing it through you OS directly on an app installed on it. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 141	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:43:47 - [441] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: ...what operating system windows operates under then ... Buzz Orti: "Windows does not operate under an operating system for the simple reason that it is an operating system. Negative logic rule." Doesnt need to operate under a operating system. Daemun Khanid wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: ...what operating system windows operates under then ... Buzz Orti: "Windows does not operate under an operating system for the simple reason that it is an operating system. Negative logic rule." My point exactly. Exactly and windows is an operating system application which makes it a separate and special type of application as are all operating systems. Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Daemun Khanid Apollo Defence Industries 470	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:45:21 - [442] - Quote See edited post above. You're too quick responding for me. Daemun of Khanid
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:48:37 - [443] - Quote Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: ...what operating system windows operates under then ... Buzz Orti: "Windows does not operate under an operating system for the simple reason that it is an operating system. Negative logic rule." Doesnt need to operate under a operating system. Daemun Khanid wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: ...what operating system windows operates under then ... Buzz Orti: "Windows does not operate under an operating system for the simple reason that it is an operating system. Negative logic rule." My point exactly. Exactly and windows is an operating system application which makes it a separate and special type of application as are all operating systems. Except that any special relationship such as windows is not noted in the eula. There is no exception explicitly said. and to my stalker "of or relating to a person or group besides the two primarily involved in a situation." 3rd party google+common knowledge.
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:49:51 - [444] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: One Two Three Four You can pop as many definitions as you want, it's pretty much irrelevant. A third party application is any application not developed by the first party developer. In this case the first party developer would be CCP, so they class anything outside of EVE as third party, including the operating system. You cannot chop up your EVE client regardless of whether or not you are doing it through you OS directly on an app installed on it.
Daemun Khanid Apollo Defence Industries 470	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:52:51 - [445] - Quote Daemun Khanid wrote: See edited post above. You're too quick responding for me. As I was trying to say, it's all just semantics in an attempt to circumvent eula. 3rd party can be used to describe pretty much anything depending on what device or software you are considering the 1st party. Anything that runs in windows not written by microsoft is third party from the operating system. The operating system (if it's windows and microsoft didn't themselves manufacture the hardware) is considered 3rd party to the hard ware developer. If EvE is the 1st party than anything not written by CCP is 3rd party and they make it very clear that they have the leeway to determine what "3rd party" software involvement to allow and what not to allow. Quoting myself because I simply can't edit fast enough to prevent double posting every time. Daemun of Khanid
Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 141	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:54:24 - [446] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: ... Except that any special relationship such as windows is not noted in the eula. There is no exception explicitly said. and to my stalker "of or relating to a person or group besides the two primarily involved in a situation." 3rd party google+common knowledge. ^^ Correction: Windows also runs on it's own hardware (not software) by the way, as it does run on IBM hardware and clone as well. Special relationship such as windows and MacOS or Linux? What is your definition is those OSes and how it is related to in the EULA. Also, the 3rd party license is not the same as the EULA. The contract, not treaty or convention is the difference, if not an exception explicitly said, whether relevant or not, or omitted... Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 02:58:06 - [447] - Quote Daemun Khanid wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: See edited post above. You're too quick responding for me. As I was trying to say, it's all just semantics in an attempt to circumvent eula. 3rd party can be used to describe pretty much anything depending on what device or software you are considering the 1st party. Anything that runs in windows not written by microsoft is third party from the operating system. The operating system (if it's windows and microsoft didn't themselves manufacture the hardware) is considered 3rd party to the hard ware developer. If EvE is the 1st party than anything not written by CCP is 3rd party and they make it very clear that they have the leeway to determine what "3rd party" software involvement to allow and what not to allow. Quoting myself because I simply can't edit fast enough to prevent double posting every time. You can argue the definition all you want, I can accept the consideration of windows being 3rd party in relation to an EvE client. Fine and dandy, the eula still has the bases well and fully covered. That leeway is simply unenforcment. Picking and choosing.
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:00:18 - [448] - Quote Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: ... Except that any special relationship such as windows is not noted in the eula. There is no exception explicitly said. and to my stalker "of or relating to a person or group besides the two primarily involved in a situation." 3rd party google+common knowledge. ^^ Correction: Windows also runs on it's own hardware (not software) by the way, as it does run on IBM hardware and clone as well. Special relationship such as windows and MacOS or Linux? What is your definition is those OSes and how it is related to in the EULA. Also, the 3rd party license is not the same as the EULA. The contract, not treaty or convention is the difference, if not an exception explicitly said, whether relevant or not, or omitted... Guess what. News for you. Everything runs on hardware, some simply need the help of windows to operate in.
Daemun Khanid Apollo Defence Industries 470	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:01:11 - [449] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: See edited post above. You're too quick responding for me. As I was trying to say, it's all just semantics in an attempt to circumvent eula. 3rd party can be used to describe pretty much anything depending on what device or software you are considering the 1st party. Anything that runs in windows not written by microsoft is third party from the operating system. The operating system (if it's windows and microsoft didn't themselves manufacture the hardware) is considered 3rd party to the hard ware developer. If EvE is the 1st party than anything not written by CCP is 3rd party and they make it very clear that they have the leeway to determine what "3rd party" software involvement to allow and what not to allow. Quoting myself because I simply can't edit fast enough to prevent double posting every time. You can argue the definition all you want, I can accept the consideration of windows being 3rd party in relation to an EvE client. Fine and dandy, the eula still has the bases well and fully covered. That leeway is simply unenforcment. Picking and choosing. Which they quite literally reserve the right to do in the licensing agreement you agreed to when you started your account(s). Daemun of Khanid
Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 141	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:04:41 - [450] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: Guess what. News for you. Everything runs on hardware, some simply need the help of windows to operate in.[/quote] That is not news to me, and if you can make hardware and can't make OS to run software on, you will need to hire an entity to create it or do it or run it. Hardware is not designed to run software without OS. Even console systems like PS3 or other have their own OS. So, you are interpreting some of the info you mention as if to try to steal from me or try to discredit me, or both. Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.

Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7364	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:07:22 - [451] - Quote I've honestly lost track of what you guys are arguing at this point. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:08:43 - [452] - Quote Daemun Khanid wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: See edited post above. You're too quick responding for me. As I was trying to say, it's all just semantics in an attempt to circumvent eula. 3rd party can be used to describe pretty much anything depending on what device or software you are considering the 1st party. Anything that runs in windows not written by microsoft is third party from the operating system. The operating system (if it's windows and microsoft didn't themselves manufacture the hardware) is considered 3rd party to the hard ware developer. If EvE is the 1st party than anything not written by CCP is 3rd party and they make it very clear that they have the leeway to determine what "3rd party" software involvement to allow and what not to allow. Quoting myself because I simply can't edit fast enough to prevent double posting every time. You can argue the definition all you want, I can accept the consideration of windows being 3rd party in relation to an EvE client. Fine and dandy, the eula still has the bases well and fully covered. That leeway is simply unenforcment. Picking and choosing. Which they quite literally reserve the right to do in the licensing agreement you agreed to when you started your account(s). except that they have neither allowed or disallowed any specific programs within the eula The eula is what has been agreed to. and last i checked i didnt sign a eula that said windows ok, everything else no. Any alteration to the eula must be updated and reaccepted. If there was a specification of programs they must be in the eula and not some forum post that most people dont even read.
Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 141	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:09:57 - [453] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: I've honestly lost track of what you guys are arguing at this point. I don't like to argue and it would be a waste of my time. I have more worthwhile challenges to deal with. Same reasons why it's more efficient for me to copyright / patent software / hardware and the OS interface as well as their related knowledge base.. Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:11:18 - [454] - Quote Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Guess what. News for you. Everything runs on hardware, some simply need the help of windows to operate in. That is not news to me, and if you can make hardware and can't make OS to run software on, you will need to hire an entity to create it or do it or run it. Hardware is not designed to run software without OS. Even console systems like PS3 or other have their own OS. So, you are interpreting some of the info you mention as if to try to steal from me or try to discredit me, or both. Edit: The communication system is also unforgiving enough to cause blatant errors such as the omission of the quoted text from you, and make it too hard to verify how it occured and why enough to be at peace with it. Yes everything has a operating system, except a device that does not have a operating system.No one is talking about hardware running without a operating system.
Daemun Khanid Apollo Defence Industries 470	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:23:51 - [455] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: See edited post above. You're too quick responding for me. As I was trying to say, it's all just semantics in an attempt to circumvent eula. 3rd party can be used to describe pretty much anything depending on what device or software you are considering the 1st party. Anything that runs in windows not written by microsoft is third party from the operating system. The operating system (if it's windows and microsoft didn't themselves manufacture the hardware) is considered 3rd party to the hard ware developer. If EvE is the 1st party than anything not written by CCP is 3rd party and they make it very clear that they have the leeway to determine what "3rd party" software involvement to allow and what not to allow. Quoting myself because I simply can't edit fast enough to prevent double posting every time. You can argue the definition all you want, I can accept the consideration of windows being 3rd party in relation to an EvE client. Fine and dandy, the eula still has the bases well and fully covered. That leeway is simply unenforcment. Picking and choosing. Which they quite literally reserve the right to do in the licensing agreement you agreed to when you started your account(s). except that they have neither allowed or disallowed any specific programs within the eula The eula is what has been agreed to. and last i checked i didnt sign a eula that said windows ok, everything else no. Any alteration to the eula must be updated and reaccepted. If there was a specification of programs they must be in the eula and not some forum post that most people dont even read. The point is they don't have to. They can't rewrite the eula and make everyone sign it again every time a new piece of software is released. No one does. The eula is very intentionally and specifically written in such a way as to leave them the leeway to make decisions and the need arises. (all eula's are) If they really wanted to they could simply ban you as soon as you do anything they don't like. Instead though they implement a warning system and provide information through sources like that devblog to provide available examples of what THEY CHOOSE to allow and not allow. Daemun of Khanid
Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 141	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:29:58 - [456] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Guess what. News for you. Everything runs on hardware, some simply need the help of windows to operate in. That is not news to me, and if you can make hardware and can't make OS to run software on, you will need to hire an entity to create it or do it or run it. Hardware is not designed to run software without OS. Even console systems like PS3 or other have their own OS. So, you are interpreting some of the info you mention as if to try to steal from me or try to discredit me, or both. Edit: The communication system is also unforgiving enough to cause blatant errors such as the omission of the quoted text from you, and make it too hard to verify how it occured and why enough to be at peace with it. Yes everything has a operating system, except a device that does not have a operating system.No one is talking about hardware running without a operating system. A device that does not have a operating system is not a hardware device that is considered to be a computer. I just did talk about hwardare running or , not running rather, without an operating system. If you try to load an XT without a BIOS and OS floppy loaded to boot it, it will not run the OS. Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:30:47 - [457] - Quote Actually they couldnt ban anyone just because they do something they dont like. As the subscription is a contract. And i disagree that they have as much leeway as you claim. This brings me back to the overlays and having real time information. They have a issue with that. By having more than one client open at any one time you have that real time information. Windows does that.
Daemun Khanid Apollo Defence Industries 470	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:35:13 - [458] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: Actually they couldnt ban anyone just because they do something they dont like. As the subscription is a contract. And i disagree that they have as much leeway as you claim. This brings me back to the overlays and having real time information. They have a issue with that. By having more than one client open at any one time you have that real time information. Windows does that. The eula is the contract and it doesn't matter if you agree. If you think they have to state specifically every single thing that is and isn't allowed then you are just loopy. I'm sorry, I don't intend to sound insulting but the thought process just isn't sound. If you have an issue with the wording of the eula then either don't agree to it (and don't play eve) or call your lawyer. Good luck with whatever you decide. Daemun of Khanid
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:35:51 - [459] - Quote Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Guess what. News for you. Everything runs on hardware, some simply need the help of windows to operate in. That is not news to me, and if you can make hardware and can't make OS to run software on, you will need to hire an entity to create it or do it or run it. Hardware is not designed to run software without OS. Even console systems like PS3 or other have their own OS. So, you are interpreting some of the info you mention as if to try to steal from me or try to discredit me, or both. Edit: The communication system is also unforgiving enough to cause blatant errors such as the omission of the quoted text from you, and make it too hard to verify how it occured and why enough to be at peace with it. Yes everything has a operating system, except a device that does not have a operating system.No one is talking about hardware running without a operating system. A device that does not have a operating system is not a hardware device that is considered to be a computer. I just did talk about hwardare running or , not running rather, without an operating system. Edit: (hardware not hwardare, I don't refer to radar, either radar on a carrier or with dropped carrier...) If you try to load an XT without a BIOS and OS floppy loaded to boot it, it will not run the OS. Edit 2: a :roll also was also added from a 3rd party, or 4th party. I built my computer. before i installed a operating system it was still a computer.
Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 141	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:39:04 - [460] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Guess what. News for you. Everything runs on hardware, some simply need the help of windows to operate in. That is not news to me, and if you can make hardware and can't make OS to run software on, you will need to hire an entity to create it or do it or run it. Hardware is not designed to run software without OS. Even console systems like PS3 or other have their own OS. So, you are interpreting some of the info you mention as if to try to steal from me or try to discredit me, or both. Edit: The communication system is also unforgiving enough to cause blatant errors such as the omission of the quoted text from you, and make it too hard to verify how it occured and why enough to be at peace with it. Yes everything has a operating system, except a device that does not have a operating system.No one is talking about hardware running without a operating system. A device that does not have a operating system is not a hardware device that is considered to be a computer. I just did talk about hwardare running or , not running rather, without an operating system. Edit: (hardware not hwardare, I don't refer to radar, either radar on a carrier or with dropped carrier...) If you try to load an XT without a BIOS and OS floppy loaded to boot it, it will not run the OS. Edit 2: a :roll also was also added from a 3rd party, or 4th party. I built my computer. before i installed a operating system it was still a computer. I can build a computer with the equivalent of a 286 or XT , or 386 type processor. It would not run EVE or the related graphic, however, it would be possible to patent it for me to use the right from it and fight it in court, even if I have to move out to a country that lets me use my own rights to use my own work, if the courts decide that I would unfairly damage other party, regardless of how much my rights are alienated. If you build a new computer patented by other companies, it is still your own computer but the IP rights are the governing bodies. Edit: https://m.youtube.com/results?search_query=build+your+own+processor&sp=CAASAggA Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.

Daemun Khanid Apollo Defence Industries 471	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:41:36 - [461] - Quote I think this rabbit hole has officially reached china... or whatever country happens to be on the opposite side of the world from you. Daemun of Khanid
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:42:10 - [462] - Quote lol there you go again off topic. no one is talking about hardware rights. edit: think he is just trolling
Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 141	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:46:46 - [463] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: lol there you go again off topic. no one is talking about hardware rights. It is your own decision to state that : 1. no one was talking about hardware right. 2. that hardware rights is off topic. 3. you mentionned about OS, or whichever it was, if you are not the same entity. 4. OS runs on hardware. 5. therefore why is hardware rights (if any, or even one's own rights for that matter) off topic? You made the inference, not me. Of course it is perhaps out of the scope of your subject, although I am involved in IP rights with this enough to know that it is on topic. Death Reactor wrote: ...edit: think he is just trolling Looks like we are not fighting the same war, if you are in any war... Unless you're just trying to throw me off as your post suggests. Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:48:07 - [464] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Guess what. News for you. Everything runs on hardware, some simply need the help of windows to operate in. That is not news to me, and if you can make hardware and can't make OS to run software on, you will need to hire an entity to create it or do it or run it. Hardware is not designed to run software without OS. Even console systems like PS3 or other have their own OS. So, you are interpreting some of the info you mention as if to try to steal from me or try to discredit me, or both. Edit: The communication system is also unforgiving enough to cause blatant errors such as the omission of the quoted text from you, and make it too hard to verify how it occured and why enough to be at peace with it. Yes everything has a operating system, except a device that does not have a operating system.No one is talking about hardware running without a operating system. A device that does not have a operating system is not a hardware device that is considered to be a computer. I just did talk about hwardare running or , not running rather, without an operating system. Edit: (hardware not hwardare, I don't refer to radar, either radar on a carrier or with dropped carrier...) If you try to load an XT without a BIOS and OS floppy loaded to boot it, it will not run the OS. Edit 2: a :roll also was also added from a 3rd party, or 4th party. I built my computer. before i installed a operating system it was still a computer. edit: to the stalker. Yes the eula is the contract. And therefore they cannot ban you because you do something they dont like. It has to be a violation of the eula specificly. And while inital discretion is theres according to the eula, once a decision has been made regarding a program it must be added to the eula and not some forum post that most players dont read and 0 players give their consent to. Cannot change the eula without a new eula and a forum post declaring new activities or programs being valid or invalid is a change in the eula. Before you could do it, now you cant= eula changed.
Daemun Khanid Apollo Defence Industries 471	Posted - 2016.02.28 03:57:45 - [465] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: edit: to the stalker. Yes the eula is the contract. And therefore they cannot ban you because you do something they dont like. It has to be a violation of the eula specificly. And while inital discretion is theres according to the eula, once a decision has been made regarding a program it must be added to the eula and not some forum post that most players dont read and 0 players give their consent to. Cannot change the eula without a new eula and a forum post declaring new activities or programs being valid or invalid is a change in the eula. Before you could do it, now you cant= eula changed. Whatever helps you sleep better at night. 1. "Without limiting CCP's rights or remedies, CCP may immediately, and without notice, discontinue or suspend access to the System through your Account, and any and all other Accounts that share the name, phone number, e-mail address, internet protocol address or credit card number with the discontinued or suspended Account, in the event of (i) a breach of the EULA (including the Rules of Conduct) by you or any user under your Account; or (ii) unauthorized access to the System or use of the Game by you or any user under your Account." 2. GÇ£We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay. For instance, the use of programs that provide in-game overlays (Mumble, Teamspeak) is not something we plan to actively police at this time. However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, or for purposes beyond its intended use, or if the application or other software violates other parts of the EULA, we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans. Please use such third party applications or other software at your own risk.GÇ¥ 3. "We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules." see note 2 and refer to note 1 for potential consequences. "Our discretion" is a very important point. Doesn't matter if you think it's fair. You've got not legal ground to stand on because it's the eula you agreed to. Edit: No where does it say they will nor is there a legal requirement for them to rewrite the eula to reflect specific situations nor does it prevent them from saying "it's ok today and you're banned for it next week... oh and then it's ok again" Their discretion means their discretion. Daemun of Khanid
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 04:05:23 - [466] - Quote in the event of (i) a breach of the EULA"" " confers an unfair benefit to players" if a player has 10 accounts and a player has 1 account that could be considered a unfair advantage. windows provides this capability. Also since multiboxing is allowed, the player with 10 accounts should have full access to those 10 accounts much like windows provides for, with overlays you are only utizing the 10 accounts properly for which the eula allows. 10 accounts vs 1 is not a unfair advantage that is not afforded by eula. And once again. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows., you get this from windows so no unfair advantage is gained by having overlays. Its all very contradictory and needs recinded.
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 04:06:41 - [467] - Quote Edit: No where does it say they will nor is there a legal requirement for them to rewrite the eula to reflect specific situations nor does it prevent them from saying "it's ok today and you're banned for it next week... oh and then it's ok again" Their discretion means their discretion."" There doesnt need to be a sentence requiring them to rewrite the eula when there is a change. If you could do it before under their discretion but cant now under their discretion, the eula has changed. And until a new eula is accepted the terms are under the old eula edit: and since no new eula was put out, it is reasonable for a person to assume eula has not changed.
Daemun Khanid Apollo Defence Industries 471	Posted - 2016.02.28 04:08:55 - [468] - Quote You seem to be missing the point in regards to the simple phrase, "in their discretion." I don't think you quite grasp that it's not only extremely vague but it's intentionally that way. The eula has not changed, their discretion has. Hence... "their discretion." Daemun of Khanid
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 04:13:36 - [469] - Quote Daemun Khanid wrote: You seem to be missing the point in regards to the simple phrase, "in their discretion." I don't think you quite grasp that it's not only extremely vague but it's intentionally that way. The eula has not changed, their discretion has. Hence... "their discretion." You dont seem to grasp how discretion from one eula to another can mean different things. old eula discretion ment that you could do it. New eula discretion means you cannot. Its the same word but has a different meaning.
Daemun Khanid Apollo Defence Industries 471	Posted - 2016.02.28 04:18:45 - [470] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: You seem to be missing the point in regards to the simple phrase, "in their discretion." I don't think you quite grasp that it's not only extremely vague but it's intentionally that way. The eula has not changed, their discretion has. Hence... "their discretion." You dont seem to grasp how discretion from one eula to another can mean different things. old eula discretion ment that you could do it. New eula discretion means you cannot. Its the same word but has a different meaning. It means neither... It means they can decide on a case by case basis what to allow and what not to allow. You are seriously grasping at straws and I'm done wasting my time trying to talk any sense to the senseless. If you think you can interpret it however you want then go ahead. I'll look forward to your "I've been banned and it's not fair" post in GD. Daemun of Khanid

Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 141	Posted - 2016.02.28 04:24:32 - [471] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Guess what. News for you. Everything runs on hardware, some simply need the help of windows to operate in. Buzz Orti: "That is not news to me, and if you can make hardware and can't make OS to run software on, you will need to hire an entity to create it or do it or run it. Hardware is not designed to run software without OS. Even console systems like PS3 or other have their own OS. So, you are interpreting some of the info you mention as if to try to steal from me or try to discredit me, or both. Edit: The communication system is also unforgiving enough to cause blatant errors such as the omission of the quoted text from you, and make it too hard to verify how it occured and why enough to be at peace with it." Yes everything has a operating system, except a device that does not have a operating system.No one is talking about hardware running without a operating system. A device that does not have a operating system is not a hardware device that is considered to be a computer. I just did talk about hwardare running or , not running rather, without an operating system. Edit: (hardware not hwardare, I don't refer to radar, either radar on a carrier or with dropped carrier...) If you try to load an XT without a BIOS and OS floppy loaded to boot it, it will not run the OS. Edit 2: a :roll also was also added from a 3rd party, or 4th party. I built my computer. before i installed a operating system it was still a computer.[/quote] edit: to the stalker. Yes the eula is the contract. And therefore they cannot ban you because you do something they dont like. It has to be a violation of the eula specificly. And while inital discretion is theres according to the eula, once a decision has been made regarding a program it must be added to the eula and not some forum post that most players dont read and 0 players give their consent to. Cannot change the eula without a new eula and a forum post declaring new activities or programs being valid or invalid is a change in the eula. Before you could do it, now you cant= eula changed.[/quote] That is definitely better discussed outside of the scope of this forum because that it is too easy [Note added mid-editing due to system stalling after a fake customer entered, practically threatening to rob the place, before the store was closed at the normal time...] ...too easy to misinterpret and lead to uncontrolled conflicts (undue aggravation)... + quotes are all mixed up, quoting more than 5 quotes, etc... + ty for posting some of the legal license (imparting of legal IP right(s) within limits) text (or terms) that may be referred to in regards to subject you may have referred to. Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 04:27:06 - [472] - Quote Daemun Khanid wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: You seem to be missing the point in regards to the simple phrase, "in their discretion." I don't think you quite grasp that it's not only extremely vague but it's intentionally that way. The eula has not changed, their discretion has. Hence... "their discretion." You dont seem to grasp how discretion from one eula to another can mean different things. old eula discretion ment that you could do it. New eula discretion means you cannot. Its the same word but has a different meaning. It means neither... It means they can decide on a case by case basis what to allow and what not to allow. You are seriously grasping at straws and I'm done wasting my time trying to talk any sense to the senseless. If you think you can interpret it however you want then go ahead. I'll look forward to your "I've been banned and it's not fair" post in GD. Sorry if you feel that debunking your ideas are grasping at straws lol. It is as i said though. I really dont see any legal reasoning for me being banned though but you wait there and stalk for me maybe just maybe one day in thet far future(however long eve lasts) when I am done with eve i might show up there just to wave bye to my haters. edit: it was not a case by case basis. No one was banned for overlays before this. Botting, broadcasting,scripts of that sort yes. But not overlays. Discretion meant there was a blanket acceptance or at least nonaction against it. When that discretion changed to a no regarding this subject then indeed the word discretion when pertaining to overlays had changed.
Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 141	Posted - 2016.02.28 04:40:50 - [473] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: You seem to be missing the point in regards to the simple phrase, "in their discretion." I don't think you quite grasp that it's not only extremely vague but it's intentionally that way. The eula has not changed, their discretion has. Hence... "their discretion." You dont seem to grasp how discretion from one eula to another can mean different things. old eula discretion ment that you could do it. New eula discretion means you cannot. Its the same word but has a different meaning. It means neither... It means they can decide on a case by case basis what to allow and what not to allow. You are seriously grasping at straws and I'm done wasting my time trying to talk any sense to the senseless. If you think you can interpret it however you want then go ahead. I'll look forward to your "I've been banned and it's not fair" post in GD. Sorry if you feel that debunking your ideas are grasping at straws lol. It is as i said though. I really dont see any legal reasoning for me being banned though but you wait there and stalk for me maybe just maybe one day in thet far future(however long eve lasts) when I am done with eve i might show up there just to wave bye to my haters. edit: it was not a case by case basis. No one was banned for overlays before this. Botting, broadcasting,scripts of that sort yes. But not overlays. Discretion meant there was a blanket acceptance or at least nonaction against it. When that discretion changed to a no regarding this subject then indeed the word discretion when pertaining to overlays had changed. Perhaps you banned me twice and I have to pay double to find out wheher or not. Perhaps you support this kind of activity and are only trying to bait me into committing myself or be off topic or God knows what. Perhaps, like me, you were unfairly banned 3 times already, as in 3 strikes in a baseball game. ...perhaps edit, I forgot now: Is there a link in this thread to a post in this thread about the overlay you are refering to? I don't know which one it is or in relation to what it is infered (or related to). Either way, how are you posting on this forum?, and 2. you got some time off if You are gonna get a deal or other. Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 04:42:58 - [474] - Quote Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Daemun Khanid wrote: You seem to be missing the point in regards to the simple phrase, "in their discretion." I don't think you quite grasp that it's not only extremely vague but it's intentionally that way. The eula has not changed, their discretion has. Hence... "their discretion." You dont seem to grasp how discretion from one eula to another can mean different things. old eula discretion ment that you could do it. New eula discretion means you cannot. Its the same word but has a different meaning. It means neither... It means they can decide on a case by case basis what to allow and what not to allow. You are seriously grasping at straws and I'm done wasting my time trying to talk any sense to the senseless. If you think you can interpret it however you want then go ahead. I'll look forward to your "I've been banned and it's not fair" post in GD. Sorry if you feel that debunking your ideas are grasping at straws lol. It is as i said though. I really dont see any legal reasoning for me being banned though but you wait there and stalk for me maybe just maybe one day in thet far future(however long eve lasts) when I am done with eve i might show up there just to wave bye to my haters. edit: it was not a case by case basis. No one was banned for overlays before this. Botting, broadcasting,scripts of that sort yes. But not overlays. Discretion meant there was a blanket acceptance or at least nonaction against it. When that discretion changed to a no regarding this subject then indeed the word discretion when pertaining to overlays had changed. Perhaps you banned me twice and I have to pay double to find out wheher or not. Perhaps you support this kind of activity and are only trying to bait me into committing myself or be off topic or God knows what. Perhaps, like me, you were unfairly banned 3 times already, as in 3 strikes in a baseball game. lol i like you, your cool, alright in my book.
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 05:28:16 - [475] - Quote Now see this" GÇ£We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications" Since multiboxing is explicity allowed then it is reasonable to assume that a player with 10 accounts will have a just advantage over a player with 1 account. It doesnt say ccp has some overly vague discretion that is solely their to determine what confers an unfair benefit and therefore having 10 fully capable accounts running appears to really not be a violation of eula. It is completly reasonable to expect 10 accounts vs one to be fair game according to eula and a overlay that affects windows and not the eve client appears to be not against eula.
Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 141	Posted - 2016.02.28 05:37:56 - [476] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: Now see this" GÇ£We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications" Since multiboxing is explicity allowed then it is reasonable to assume that a player with 10 accounts will have a just advantage over a player with 1 account. It doesnt say ccp has some overly vague discretion that is solely their to determine what confers an unfair benefit and therefore having 10 fully capable accounts running appears to really not be a violation of eula. It is completly reasonable to expect 10 accounts vs one to be fair game according to eula and a overlay that affects windows and not the eve client appears to be not against eula. I'm not gonna read the whole thing, I'm on screen keyboard, with USB external power as backup power, ups. They can do what they want. They designed it like that. Edit: It's not the ground. Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 05:49:39 - [477] - Quote Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Now see this" GÇ£We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications" Since multiboxing is explicity allowed then it is reasonable to assume that a player with 10 accounts will have a just advantage over a player with 1 account. It doesnt say ccp has some overly vague discretion that is solely their to determine what confers an unfair benefit and therefore having 10 fully capable accounts running appears to really not be a violation of eula. It is completly reasonable to expect 10 accounts vs one to be fair game according to eula and a overlay that affects windows and not the eve client appears to be not against eula. I'm not gonna read the whole thing, I'm on screen keyboard, with USB external power as backup power, ups. They can do what they want. They designed it like that. Edit: It's not the ground. They may want details and explanations from you. I don't know you yet and if I do I didn't know until I get more info. If they mention reason x is why b happened, it doesn't really matter because of a. If you omit their concern it may be your responsibility. It may be a complain. If the complain is malicious or invalid how will they find out? Where is your analysis on balance of powers and why is it viable? Is your credit scientific, legal, educational or other? What about credit for art? What about NDA? Non-competition clauses? The answer is probably 42
Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 141	Posted - 2016.02.28 05:54:43 - [478] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Now see this" GÇ£We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications" Since multiboxing is explicity allowed then it is reasonable to assume that a player with 10 accounts will have a just advantage over a player with 1 account. It doesnt say ccp has some overly vague discretion that is solely their to determine what confers an unfair benefit and therefore having 10 fully capable accounts running appears to really not be a violation of eula. It is completly reasonable to expect 10 accounts vs one to be fair game according to eula and a overlay that affects windows and not the eve client appears to be not against eula. I'm not gonna read the whole thing, I'm on screen keyboard, with USB external power as backup power, ups. They can do what they want. They designed it like that. Edit: It's not the ground. They may want details and explanations from you. I don't know you yet and if I do I didn't know until I get more info. If they mention reason x is why b happened, it doesn't really matter because of a. If you omit their concern it may be your responsibility. It may be a complain. If the complain is malicious or invalid how will they find out? Where is your analysis on balance of powers and why is it viable? Is your credit scientific, legal, educational or other? What about credit for art? What about NDA? Non-competition clauses? The answer is probably 42 I prefer a billion trillion. Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Death Reactor Arch Angels Assault Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS 1	Posted - 2016.02.28 07:07:07 - [479] - Quote Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: Now see this" GÇ£We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications" Since multiboxing is explicity allowed then it is reasonable to assume that a player with 10 accounts will have a just advantage over a player with 1 account. It doesnt say ccp has some overly vague discretion that is solely their to determine what confers an unfair benefit and therefore having 10 fully capable accounts running appears to really not be a violation of eula. It is completly reasonable to expect 10 accounts vs one to be fair game according to eula and a overlay that affects windows and not the eve client appears to be not against eula. I'm not gonna read the whole thing, I'm on screen keyboard, with USB external power as backup power, ups. They can do what they want. They designed it like that. Edit: It's not the ground. They may want details and explanations from you. I don't know you yet and if I do I didn't know until I get more info. If they mention reason x is why b happened, it doesn't really matter because of a. If you omit their concern it may be your responsibility. It may be a complain. If the complain is malicious or invalid how will they find out? Where is your analysis on balance of powers and why is it viable? Is your credit scientific, legal, educational or other? What about credit for art? What about NDA? Non-competition clauses? The answer is probably 42 I prefer a billion trillion. It's more worth it to me and every one can get a better share. I can't do much with $42, and I got engaged to my only future wife at 43. I would rather die without marrying someone else even if that meant war. I'm sure that is very common as in common law. but 42 could be anything, it can even be a boat, we have always wanted a boat.
Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 152	Posted - 2016.02.28 07:21:43 - [480] - Quote Death Reactor wrote: Buzz Orti wrote: Death Reactor wrote: ... The answer is probably 42 I prefer a billion trillion. It's more worth it to me and every one can get a better share. I can't do much with $42... but 42 could be anything, it can even be a boat, we have always wanted a boat. Is this the time it takes to make a profit or something related to the number of days (without taking into account the other factors like costs of money and so on)... I use more accurate data for calculations of Rate of Return On Investments and Return On Investments. Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.

Neuntausend GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 688	Posted - 2016.02.28 07:54:32 - [481] - Quote Ok, now this thread has gone from voicing at least somewhat serious concerns to completely silly quarreling.
Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 156	Posted - 2016.02.28 08:21:54 - [482] - Quote Neuntausend wrote: Ok, now this thread has gone from voicing at least somewhat serious concerns to completely silly quarreling. It is about overlays, or applications like mumble, team speak, browser, or third party app not for business and not controlling other accounts modules from another accounts (like a thief would do). Also about ISK buyers amnesty. And it is also about account security. Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Random User83 Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 11	Posted - 2016.02.28 11:12:24 - [483] - Quote As a Mulitboxer I greatly appriciate the clarification regarding ISBoxer and Windows management. I run 2 clients split 50/50 on one screen (healers) with isboxer just so there's no overlap (but each is controlled individually, and then 8-9 dps clients on another screen in stock normal windowed mode that i just click back and forth through. It's nice to finally know that what i'm doing isn't going to get me banned. Thankyou for taking the time to answer the questions we've been wondering about for a looooong time. xoxo random user 83 I'm a strong independant alt that don't need no main...
Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 158	Posted - 2016.02.28 14:26:37 - [484] - Quote Random User83 wrote: As a Mulitboxer I greatly appriciate the clarification regarding ISBoxer and Windows management. I run 2 clients split 50/50 on one screen (healers) with isboxer just so there's no overlap (but each is controlled individually, and then 8-9 dps clients on another screen in stock normal windowed mode that i just click back and forth through. It's nice to finally know that what i'm doing isn't going to get me banned. Thankyou for taking the time to answer the questions we've been wondering about for a looooong time. xoxo random user 83 Bonus round for the user. I read ISBoxer could be used if done properly and within limited parameters allowed by the EULA or new deals contracts terms. Except I need more RAM for around $5 to $10, idk. Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Mishra San Spaceships Anonymous 41	Posted - 2016.02.28 14:49:14 - [485] - Quote Cynthia Asanari wrote: I've recently been drawing eve ship commissions for PLEX . is this legit? I'm pretty sure it is, but I'm just double checking anyway. Something like this. http://imgur.com/gallery/EBcTNPa I figured i had to ask since it's not really an in-game item Late to the party and kinda off topic, but that is an amazing picture =). Likes! sending virtual hug, virtual hug sent!
Buzz Orti State War Academy Caldari State 165	Posted - 2016.02.28 15:06:05 - [486] - Quote Mishra San wrote: Cynthia Asanari wrote: I've recently been drawing eve ship commissions for PLEX . is this legit? I'm pretty sure it is, but I'm just double checking anyway. Something like this. http://imgur.com/gallery/EBcTNPa I figured i had to ask since it's not really an in-game item Late to the party and kinda off topic, but that is an amazing picture =). Likes! Is this like a 3rd party accounting system to keep track of brokers commissions on trades of services or products security? Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6950	Posted - 2016.02.29 06:06:12 - [487] - Quote Buzz Orti wrote: Mishra San wrote: Cynthia Asanari wrote: I've recently been drawing eve ship commissions for PLEX . is this legit? I'm pretty sure it is, but I'm just double checking anyway. Something like this. http://imgur.com/gallery/EBcTNPa I figured i had to ask since it's not really an in-game item Late to the party and kinda off topic, but that is an amazing picture =). Likes! Is this like a 3rd party accounting system to keep track of brokers commissions on trades of services or products security? Ah yes, a value added tax on all transactions which have out-of-game components. CCP Grimmi: With all players on a single server and in direct competition with each other even your trade and industry activities are PvP.
Random User83 Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 11	Posted - 2016.02.29 08:17:13 - [488] - Quote Buzz Orti wrote: Random User83 wrote: As a Mulitboxer I greatly appriciate the clarification regarding ISBoxer and Windows management. I run 2 clients split 50/50 on one screen (healers) with isboxer just so there's no overlap (but each is controlled individually, and then 8-9 dps clients on another screen in stock normal windowed mode that i just click back and forth through. It's nice to finally know that what i'm doing isn't going to get me banned. Thankyou for taking the time to answer the questions we've been wondering about for a looooong time. xoxo random user 83 Bonus round for the user. I read ISBoxer could be used if done properly and within limited parameters allowed by the EULA or new deals contracts terms. Except I need more RAM for around $5 to $10, idk. i run an i5-2500k oc'd to 4.5ghz 2x evga GTX970s in SLI 32gb gskill 1866 asrock ext4 gen3 (z67?68?) 2 x 24 inch 1080p acer cheapo monitors and a evga P2 1000w powersupply running 11 clients 2 in isboxer on high and 9 in windowed mode DDD on high slaves on medium graphics i've never even come close to maxing out ram. I could get away with using 16gb and still have room. right now the CPU is the bottleneck. it peaks out at 100% usage when i do things like warp wing through a gate all at the same time, but running VG's it usually sits at about 65-75% The SLI 970s are overkill too. Cooling is a must upgrade the stock cpu fan, toss it in the trash. Grab a coolermaster 212 or something for 30 bucks. My video cards usually sit around 68 degrees (C) the cpu at 70ish the mobo at 45-50. but it's kinda noisy with all the fans going so if that bugs you go water. I just use a good headset. at system idle (ie websurfing, the vid cards usually sit about 40* and the fans spin down to maybe 200rpm and i've got the cpu set to level 0 in the bios so it doesn't kick in till about 45* but it's nice not having to worry about memory if you've got 40 tabs in chrome open and netflix streaming in the other window. I'm a strong independant alt that don't need no main...
Kinete Jenius Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 114	Posted - 2016.02.29 22:08:14 - [489] - Quote Random User83 wrote: i run an i5-2500k oc'd to 4.5ghz 2x evga GTX970s in SLI 32gb gskill 1866 asrock ext4 gen3 (z67?68?) 2 x 24 inch 1080p acer cheapo monitors and a evga P2 1000w powersupply running 11 clients 2 in isboxer on high and 9 in windowed mode DDD on high slaves on medium graphics i've never even come close to maxing out ram. I could get away with using 16gb and still have room. right now the CPU is the bottleneck. it peaks out at 100% usage when i do things like warp wing through a gate all at the same time, but running VG's it usually sits at about 65-75% The SLI 970s are overkill too. Cooling is a must upgrade the stock cpu fan, toss it in the trash. Grab a coolermaster 212 or something for 30 bucks. My video cards usually sit around 68 degrees (C) the cpu at 70ish the mobo at 45-50. but it's kinda noisy with all the fans going so if that bugs you go water. I just use a good headset. at system idle (ie websurfing, the vid cards usually sit about 40* and the fans spin down to maybe 200rpm and i've got the cpu set to level 0 in the bios so it doesn't kick in till about 45* but it's nice not having to worry about memory if you've got 40 tabs in chrome open and netflix streaming in the other window. Wow I practically run on potatos compared to other boxers. My secondary machine e7200 at 2.53 ghz (was OCed so it's rocking a CM hyper 212+ HS) HD5770 1 GB 8 gb ddr3 at 1066 because the bios cant set TRFC high enough to run at 1333 which is odd because I can run a pair of el cheapo crucial 2 gig sticks at 1333 fine. CX430M PSU This machine can run up to 10 clients (lowest settings) before it becomes useless to do things. Undocking for the first time can be a bit slow and if there's a lot of fireworks (yes fireworks) flying around the FPS does drop badly. When boxing in PVP or VGs I only run 1-2 clients on this machine. Usually booster and/or scout/ore/hacker. Primary FX6300 at 4.5 ghz with a CM hyper 212+ evo HS GTX 660 2gb 16 GB ram 1920x1200 and 1920x1080 monitors corsair tx650 v2.something When doing active stuff I usually run 10 clients on this machine. For some reason netflix gets a little wonky when skipping around in a HD movie. I don't experience that issue when playing a DVD directly. Might be because I tend to have a lot of tabs open on firefox at the same time. Since the clients are all zoomed out and on low settings the only thing that hits 100% is the CPU and only during certain actions (like undocking or logging in all clients at the same time). The CPU runs so cool I cannot even hear the HS on it. It also helps that I have a killer stereo setup on my primary. So what I"m getting from this thread is that CCP doesn't want people using videofx with click through. Tiling windows to see the overview is fine but using videofx to the same thing isn't? Quote: We do not necessarily need to differentiate between different systems. If the logs show activity that should not be possible through normal means, we will take action. This is the part that worries me. I've had plenty of people over the years tell me that what I am doing in game wasn't possible and I must be cheating (including eve). I've been banned from a variety of FPS servers over the last 2 decades of online game play for that reason (headphones and knowledge of the game/maps). So basically I'm worried about what baseline they are using to determine what is or isn't possible with the stock eve window options.
Delt0r Garsk Shits N Giggles 487	Posted - 2016.03.01 02:24:17 - [490] - Quote This is a concern for me also. Not so much for eve since i am now only playing 2 accounts, and my dreams of multiboxing a 5 strong cap fleet was crushed with a WH eviction. But in the past I have been accused of cheating in FPS, just because i had a full 3d sound setup and could easily outplay everyone that didn't. Eve is no differnent. Many monitors and perfectly legal game play is undifferentiated from partial screens or extra overlays. There is no way outside spyware (that woudn't work on Linux anyway) to tell these cases apart. And what i hate even more is the ever shifting goal posts. I just don't trust that your not just going to come out and ban multiboxing. I am in NZ, we just have to play with extra accounts or give up and go goons or PL. And i don't want to be a big alliance jockey. AKA the scientist. Death and Glory! Well fun is also good.

Sky Marshal Core Industry. Circle-Of-Two 91	Posted - 2016.03.01 11:04:45 - [491] - Quote Just a question even if the answer is pretty obvious : Because of this devblog, I just looked in eBay to check the situation, and I found multiple PLEX sellers who activate the item ingame to the buyer, so it is clearly player to player. Between the item itself and the PLEX codes who can be bought from official resellers, I wonder if CCP can really track it and so stop it, or if this ISK-Proxy selling stuff is tolerated as PLEX -½ is a completely legal option for turning your real life cash into precious space bucks. -+
lost packet Alpha Flight Almost Broken 94	Posted - 2016.03.08 13:13:21 - [492] - Quote I thought EVE was perceived as a game played by technically adept individuals. At least now this thread provides a source we can refer people to in order to prove that simply isn't the case. Alpha Flight are recruiting pilots \| Almost Broken are recruiting corporations
JFKen Imperia Beyond Frontier Brave Collective 28	Posted - 2016.03.14 17:22:33 - [493] - Quote Carebears sitting on B in wallet thread


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