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DGWabbit
Black Lance oooh Shiny
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Posted - 2007.07.18 18:19:00 -
[121]
Edited by: DGWabbit on 18/07/2007 18:19:36
Originally by: DGWabbit My point is that, removing local would do nothing but add an unneeded complication to a game. [/quote
It would be to difficult for you, so you don't want it.
Not so much it being 'difficult' versus tedious. Even if they removed all the names in local and just left a number...that would be sufficient. But removing it entirely just seems a bit overboard, even with constellation chats..you'll still see numbers and faces, just a broader 'local' and another chat window to have open. It does make the game easier...i'd rather spend 2 seconds knowing if its worth spending 2 minutes warping around looking for a target. I have a life, I prefer not to waste time in a game simply because it 'adds' content in the end =p Most roaming gangs take 2 hours...to spend 4-5 hours for the same result just doesnt feel worth the change.
The game was built in with local...yet ccp claimed they didnt intend to make it an intel tool...but that's what it is. Just as I never intended to hurt people's feelings...it happens.
If local were removed, despite being in the game since I can remember except when patches borked it up, it would serverely hamper the server community as a whole. It's a tool a variety of people use for their own reasons, i'd be like taking the wheel away from us. People 'adapt' or 'quit'...If you really dont care which of the two people prefer...you might find yourself without much of a game.
In the end there are different arguements here...people who carebear, people who pirate, people who play at the corp level, others at the alliance, and others at the alt level. Each want different things, but I'm assuming it's going to stay the way ccp designed it. Otherwise it might bite them in the butt.
**that one time with no local after rev1 came out was cool, just wish I coulda flown a recon, arazu/curse, at the time :(**
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.07.18 19:55:00 -
[122]
Originally by: DGWabbit Edited by: DGWabbit on 18/07/2007 18:19:36
Originally by: DGWabbit My point is that, removing local would do nothing but add an unneeded complication to a game. [/quote
It would be to difficult for you, so you don't want it.
Not so much it being 'difficult' versus tedious. Even if they removed all the names in local and just left a number...that would be sufficient. But removing it entirely just seems a bit overboard, even with constellation chats..you'll still see numbers and faces, just a broader 'local' and another chat window to have open. It does make the game easier...i'd rather spend 2 seconds knowing if its worth spending 2 minutes warping around looking for a target. I have a life, I prefer not to waste time in a game simply because it 'adds' content in the end =p Most roaming gangs take 2 hours...to spend 4-5 hours for the same result just doesnt feel worth the change.
The game was built in with local...yet ccp claimed they didnt intend to make it an intel tool...but that's what it is. Just as I never intended to hurt people's feelings...it happens.
If local were removed, despite being in the game since I can remember except when patches borked it up, it would serverely hamper the server community as a whole. It's a tool a variety of people use for their own reasons, i'd be like taking the wheel away from us. People 'adapt' or 'quit'...If you really dont care which of the two people prefer...you might find yourself without much of a game.
In the end there are different arguements here...people who carebear, people who pirate, people who play at the corp level, others at the alliance, and others at the alt level. Each want different things, but I'm assuming it's going to stay the way ccp designed it. Otherwise it might bite them in the butt.
**that one time with no local after rev1 came out was cool, just wish I coulda flown a recon, arazu/curse, at the time :(**
its always the carebears ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Bitchslap
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Posted - 2007.07.18 20:26:00 -
[123]
N O
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.07.23 01:24:00 -
[124]
Originally by: *****slap N O
yes ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
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Posted - 2007.07.23 01:29:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 23/07/2007 01:32:09
Originally by: Frug How are so many people suddenly against removing local as a spy tool?
I thought everyone wanted local nerfed for that. I sure do.
No, some of us have a realistic view of the damage it would do. This was VERY heavily reinforced by a brief bug a few years ago which killed off local for a few days. It sucked wind for everyone.
Basically, tackling frigs can be on top of you before you can leave unless you are allways perfect alligned in anything larger than a cruiser. And that's assuming 5-second cycle-spamming of the scan button. In practice, scans will often take longer than that anyway (!).
It favours hunters, completely. Their prey has a very limited possible number of locations. The only way to protect themselves is to sit a shuttle alt on the gate, and go safe when it sees anything, so the hunters will never, ever see anyone protecting themselves properly. People don't do that now, so there's a chance at least you can catch them. People can and will adopt that method if it's the only possible way to survive.
//Maya |
Vyyrus
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.23 01:58:00 -
[126]
Removing local would be no fun for me don't wanna have to scan every minute for hostile.
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Flinx Evenstar
Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.07.23 02:03:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 23/07/2007 02:04:14
Originally by: Maya Rkell
It favours hunters, completely. Their prey has a very limited possible number of locations.
No it don't Let's say I am cruising around 0.0 looking for targets. When I jump in, I would like to know how many are in local, how many are in the same corp, and how many are known FC's or good gang leaders.
If there is no local, you handicap the hunters just as much as the hunted.
I say keep local, if you are watching local when a nasty pilot like me comes in, then good job If, you are too busy salvaging your wrecks to notice, then sorry but you are scrammed already
Seems balanced
I, erm, like kill things and stuff |
R3dSh1ft
Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.07.23 02:06:00 -
[128]
Removing local with the game as it is now would kill it (who wants to npc whilst clicking "scan" every 3 seconds?).
But eventually yes this would be great - not to remove local but to make it voluntary in 0.0 space. To get this to be 'balanced' however we'd need some kind of active radar that would alert you to a ship bearing down on you in warp, and probably some kind of stargate activation notification as well (not telling you which gate, but that a gate was activated - your sensors are calibrated to detect hyperspatial vortices or some such).
So lets say you are ratting in a 0.0 belt and you are 'alone' or alone enough as you can expect without a local count. You get a buzzer to say hyperspatial vortex was detected - so you warp off to a few previously made scan spots near the 3 gates in system. So you detect a cruiser and guess where he's warping to and observe him leaving system. Dandy - back to ratting.
Say on the other hand, the same happens but the cruiser is a recon and cloaks so your scans reveal nothing... what do you do - you can either continue ratting and hope for the best, or move to a more secure location/call in support. Our hero decides to stay put and take his chances - then an enemy recon appears next to him in a belt, scrams him and multiple buzzers sound as more hostiles jump in for the kill.
By this point in the game cloaked ships will be detectable via a system scanning array, perhaps configured for alliance use (via remote link? mmm luvly) - so if you have sov over a system and can anchor such a module you will be much better off than if you choose a random empty system and try to stay "off the beaten track" - relatively speaking. Using scanning arrays in this way would also prevent people 'clustering' togther in a system to avoid fleets as there is a mechanic to avoid being ganked. It also adds another reason to control a solarsystem - safe ratting/mining.
What about the lone pirates? Well you will be at much less of a disadvantage than now when they know for sure you are there and you can only catch the dumb ones or afk ones. But with the mechanics above you would be much better off avoiding sovereign systems of competent alliances. This would also act as a buff to entities that actively control their own space, rather than 'inhabiting' npc regions.
Conclusion - Remove local at some point, improve game mechanics first.
DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.07.23 02:10:00 -
[129]
Originally by: R3dSh1ft
By this point in the game cloaked ships will be detectable via a system scanning array, perhaps configured for alliance use (via remote link? mmm luvly)
no this is not an option ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
R3dSh1ft
Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.07.23 02:20:00 -
[130]
Originally by: SiJira
Originally by: R3dSh1ft
By this point in the game cloaked ships will be detectable via a system scanning array, perhaps configured for alliance use (via remote link? mmm luvly)
no this is not an option
thanks for your detailed explanatory post, there is no way i would've understood your complex arguments without such a thorought narrative.
DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine |
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.07.23 02:26:00 -
[131]
Removing local in 0.0 == removing all 0.0 carebear operations.
Result: Economical collapse of all 0.0 alliances (who mostly rely on incomes from refineries to exist) and the end of populated 0.0, bringing with it the end of most pvp, either through lack of participants, or lack of money.
So, yeah, the week of fun you'd have absolutely raping a few carebears is totally worth the end of the game.
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Disanii
Exile.
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Posted - 2007.07.23 02:37:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Elmicker
Result: Economical collapse of all 0.0 alliances and the end of populated 0.0
just means that the alliances might have to, dare I say it, defend their space with gate camps. If you think i'm kidding there are alliances out there who defend their space 24/7 with gate camps. Wouldn't even have to be 24/7 just organize times to npc/mine with pvp support. Indeed some sort of scanner fix would have to be implemented, but instantly knowing the number of hostile/friendly in system is overpowered for the hunter AND the hunted imo.
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Forever Alone
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Posted - 2007.07.23 02:38:00 -
[133]
Quote: Removing local with the game as it is now would kill it (who wants to npc whilst clicking "scan" every 3 seconds?).
I believe that a proper local nerf would include a buff to the scanner. Overview scanner should automatically include same results you would get from manual scanner - meaning all ships in 15 AU range show up on overview, just without extra data that you get when they are in your grid.
Local as it is now was never meant to be. Adapt or die
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Vyyrus
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.23 02:53:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Vyyrus on 23/07/2007 02:58:49 Edited by: Vyyrus on 23/07/2007 02:56:08 15au is not enough. The scan should be for the whole core system the station is in. No scan should be available for neighboring systems. And for SiJira why do you keep on having to make a thread for the same thing over and over?
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.07.23 03:30:00 -
[135]
Originally by: R3dSh1ft
Originally by: SiJira
Originally by: R3dSh1ft
By this point in the game cloaked ships will be detectable via a system scanning array, perhaps configured for alliance use (via remote link? mmm luvly)
no this is not an option
thanks for your detailed explanatory post, there is no way i would've understood your complex arguments without such a thorought narrative.
try to click at the general discussion forum and look through the topics once a week for threads similar to this
____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.07.23 03:35:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Forever Alone Local as it is now was never meant to be. Adapt or die
Oh the irony of this sentence.
You tell us that something was "never intended" and then to "adapt or die."
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Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
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Posted - 2007.07.23 03:46:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Vyyrus And for SiJira why do you keep on having to make a thread for the same thing over and over?
Because he dosn't understand the implications. Or that the devs have stated several times that they won't change local to work differently in different places, and indeed have no plans to revise it at all..
//Maya |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.07.23 03:48:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Vyyrus And for SiJira why do you keep on having to make a thread for the same thing over and over?
Because he dosn't understand the implications. Or that the devs have stated several times that they won't change local to work differently in different places, and indeed have no plans to revise it at all..
she - and the devs have said many things and done many others stop posting with your limited knowledge and hypocrisy thank you
____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.23 04:00:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Elmicker
Originally by: Forever Alone Local as it is now was never meant to be. Adapt or die
Oh the irony of this sentence.
You tell us that something was "never intended" and then to "adapt or die."
What? You think the only reason I want a change is cause I can't adapt to the game as it is?. I am fairly successful in 0.0 pvp and always use local chat for my own advantage when trying to hide or find targets.
I know that I will adapt just as successfully when local is nerfed. I want a new challange, I want the game to become fresh again with new opportunities and tactics.
Considering that I would have no problem playing with or without local scout took, I can base my decision on "what is better". From purely game logic point of view, local chat should not function as a scout tool to the extent it does now.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.07.23 05:36:00 -
[140]
Look, run a simple two person game in the current system with the condition of no local chat where the objective of player 1 is to make money and the objective of player 2 is to destroy player 1.
Without local chat? How can player 1 succeed? What if player 2 is flying a recon?
Now run the game with multiple player 1's and multiple player 2's. How can the player 1's win?
If player 1 cannot win, then what is the point of the game? Is it a game anymore?
Local may provide information too quickly, giving player 1 too much time to get away. Especialy with the current tools available to said players[cloaks mainly]. But that is only then an issue with balancing the time it takes to find a person against the time it takes local to update with respect to the desired advantage to be given to either player 1 or player 2.
Ideally, local would have a 30 second to 1 minute delay. This would give new entrances into a system time to scan down and attack targets while giving reasonable warning to those attempting to make money. It takes between 1 minute to 2 minutes to scan down a target and tackle them. With a 30 second delay a pirate would have to be lucky to get a good drop on a smart target. With a 1 minute delay, they would just have to be competent.
I think something like 45 seconds would be a good compromise, making avoiding pirates difficulty, obscuring information on the size of forces jumping into camps, and still providing reasonable balance between the two participants in the game.
But the removal of local in any context not replaced by a universal system that achieves the same goals shifts the balance of play to far towards the attacker. It is already possible to disrupt trade, production, and other operations even without the strength of cloaks, it does not need to be easier.
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Lastdon
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Posted - 2007.07.23 06:14:00 -
[141]
I love it when people see one of your posts and rather then replying to yours they make their own.
Well they're are good points on both sides, 1 is for the hunter and the other is for the prey. I don't think that local was ever intended to be an means to gather intelligence. On that note let me start with saying that CCP needs to rework this at the universe level.
First off there needs to be a means to detect Ships in space such as an situation display. A little display on your screen that can pick up ships at certain distances. Depending on the size of the ship/ Signature, determines the distance at which it is detected. It should be given the ability to detect ships in warp to give some what of an notification that they're inbounds. Also you would have a max range/ base skill. For cloaking / stealth ships they obviously already get a signature reduction, so it could get closer to a target with out detection. Finally this display/RADAR should have a more in depth feature which could detect what type of ship it is or if it is a neutral,war target,Alliance/corp/Fleet.
I believe that this should just be the start of things. Later there should be systems that could be explored. These systems shouldn't shown up on the star map till you have explored them yourself. This allows for more alliances to move out to 0.0 space. This also allows people to truly have hidden POS that could be their capital with out fear of reprisal by the few dominate alliances who control the North,South,or other part. With out real RECON conducted they would truly have to fight their way to you, since Inell gathering is no longer automated but conducted by the players.
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Zalathar
Minmatar Biometaloid INC
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Posted - 2007.07.23 06:37:00 -
[142]
a. CCP does not want to scare people away from 0.0, so they wont nerf local, as it scares people away from 0.0 and lowsec
b. Gates would log who comes through them.
c. Remeber the mass wining when their was no local?
d This game should be fun, not a matter of spamming the scanner
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Local is the main cause of BLOBAGE... the fact that you know exactly how many your enemy has estimulate you to brign a few more to be sure to outnumber them. They see that and do same etc..
nerf local and FC will have to take more chances and more fun will happen.
Controlling the borders is easy. Just keep constellation chat, its enough for that.
lol, that is just wrong. If you dont know whats there, make a bigger blob. safety in numbers concept. Blobs will become bigger, and roam around everywhere, patrolling, and detracting from a true war effort. ~~~~~~ *mods, if you think i'm ugly please say "eeek!"* ~~~~~~ eeeeeekk - Deckard eeeeee...K -Darth Patches gawwwd damn!!1 -zhuge you soo pretty I think you're stunningly handsome and let me just say that you're wearing that dead parrot on your shoulder in a particularly dashing way today. -Hango Your using up all the space hango! - Timmeh |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.07.23 06:52:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Zalathar a. CCP does not want to scare people away from 0.0, so they wont nerf local, as it scares people away from 0.0 and lowsec
b. Gates would log who comes through them.
c. Remeber the mass wining when their was no local?
d This game should be fun, not a matter of spamming the scanner
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Local is the main cause of BLOBAGE... the fact that you know exactly how many your enemy has estimulate you to brign a few more to be sure to outnumber them. They see that and do same etc..
nerf local and FC will have to take more chances and more fun will happen.
Controlling the borders is easy. Just keep constellation chat, its enough for that.
lol, that is just wrong. If you dont know whats there, make a bigger blob. safety in numbers concept. Blobs will become bigger, and roam around everywhere, patrolling, and detracting from a true war effort.
yes yes everything will make blobs bigger - no really i dont think you read the thread it has nothing to do with losec ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
TheEndofTheWorld
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Posted - 2007.07.23 07:01:00 -
[144]
Local shows the local count, but not who is in local. Tbh this would be the most reasonable solution.
Complete removal of local is just unreasonable and please don't even think about it...
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.23 07:10:00 -
[145]
Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld Local shows the local count, but not who is in local. Tbh this would be the most reasonable solution.
Complete removal of local is just unreasonable and please don't even think about it...
What is so unreasonable about it? Removing local as scout tool can be complemented with a boost to automatic Overview scanner - making it work in 15 AU range for example.
Just think how hard it is for hunter to find prey in system with POS and many ships at the POS. Those ships are like decoys, the hunter won't know for sure if they are real players or just pilotless ships.
Local nerf only really hurts chinese isk farmers and those who operate like isk farmers - meaning solo 0.0 spawn chaining, while being in noob corp and completely disregarding local alliances and every human being in the area.
Local nerf would force people to cooperate more in order to maximize their success.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.07.23 07:29:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Ephemeron . Just think how hard it is for hunter to find prey in system with POS and many ships at the POS.
Really really easy. Ships at POS only show up when you point your directional scanner at a moon.
Ships that arent show up when you point your directional scanner anywhere else.
Ships that are empty and not at a POS are either
A: worthless
or
B: Free
An automatic overview scanner seems really great until you realize that some ships can warp while cloaked.
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Vyyrus
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.23 07:30:00 -
[147]
No local nerf would give gankers the ability now to be twice as invincible even with cloaks. Its never going to change so stop making topics about it. There is no sticky on local nerf so even dev's don't care.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.07.23 08:14:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Vyyrus No local nerf would give gankers the ability now to be twice as invincible even with cloaks. Its never going to change so stop making topics about it. There is no sticky on local nerf so even dev's don't care.
if there was a sticky posts would be there - this is general discussion and if you dont like the idea and have nothing to say the x is at top right ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.07.23 08:21:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Goumindong
An automatic overview scanner seems really great until you realize that some ships can warp while cloaked.
Yeah, that would mean that some people might be able to set up some kind of a surprise attack in an expensive ship that has devoted a highslot to a cloak. Shocking stuff
Meanwhile, the pro-ratter and pro-miner groups still don't seem to have an awareness of just how badly removing local would hurt roaming ganksquads.
Recruitment FAQ |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.07.23 08:31:00 -
[150]
Originally by: BluOrange
Originally by: Goumindong
An automatic overview scanner seems really great until you realize that some ships can warp while cloaked.
Yeah, that would mean that some people might be able to set up some kind of a surprise attack in an expensive ship that has devoted a highslot to a cloak. Shocking stuff
Meanwhile, the pro-ratter and pro-miner groups still don't seem to have an awareness of just how badly removing local would hurt roaming ganksquads.
to guys like goum 0.0 is not relentless and dangerous its where you isk farm and you deserve safety for - uhm well he never explained that - all he said was if you have a group in 0.0 you deserve safety from anythign except a force significantly bigger ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
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