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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 21 post(s) |
Zarch AlDain
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.05.15 14:36:00 -
[181]
As the others have already said the presence of pirates is relevant.
Fundamentally for players to take part in FW they have to be looking for some sort of reward. The reward should be balanced according to the risk being taken - and the presence of pirates needs to be factored into that evaluation of the risk. (I don't mean dynamic '3 pirates camping this system so add 1 medal' or stuff like that, I mean fundamentally when the rewards are established).
Zarch AlDain ---- My corp is recruiting. See the recruitment thread here.
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.15 14:37:00 -
[182]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale I really don't want to get into economic discussions, here, not least because I'm not really qualified to do so. If you want to talk about this stuff I suggest you (and/or Wrayeth) start a new thread somewhere
That's fair enough then. Chronotis has been a star in MD answering questions there
Just add more space than just one region please, that's all I'm concerned about!
Generally though, what people have to remember is Eve is not a game where you can 'opt in' for PvP. Eve is what it is (and truly marvellous) because it's a dog eat dog environment in PvP and the Economy (but unfortunately less so in PvE). Therefore if you're concerned about *****footing into lowsec, grow some teeth. Even if it's not your main game to pewpew, in order to play Eve to the maximum, you just have to know how to take down a pirate or die in dignity by not having a completely useless set up. Virtual Darwinism ftw!
As far as FW is concerned, it adds a new dimension. If you want to reap the benefits of faction stuff, you have to sign up to the faction, but at the same time you open yourself up to other factions.
The only concern I have, is I just hope the reward is worth the risk, unlike with the largely useless L5 missions...
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.05.15 15:10:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn
So the best way to get people involved in low sec factional warfare, IMHO, is to revise insurance so that ships including T2 AND modules are insurable for, say, 80% of the worth. That will reduce the time people need to grind for a new ship and modules to 20% - equally for all players.
That, or have the faction agents provide free frigs, dessies and cruisers to the combatants.
Thats just my $0.02.
*nods* I could see the idea of insurance being improved when on a faction mission (since you are essentially doing government work at that point and should be able to submit a reembursement report). Though the thing I worry about is less ship replacement and more implants.
I have no problem loosing a ship, I can always fly a cheap one for fun. I can't afford a tricked out HAC on my budget (~30MISK/mo on a good month) but I can throw rifters away pretty easily. What I worry about is being pod-killed and loose implants since those tend to be a slow upgrade over time that would probably take me at least 6 months to replace.
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Plave Okice
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.05.15 15:16:00 -
[184]
Why does there have to be reward for everything we do in Eve? People compare everything to the isk/hour they can earn running missions, pathetic.
Anyone ever heard of fun? This is a game you know.
Would you like to know more? |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 15:19:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Plave Okice Why does there have to be reward for everything we do in Eve? People compare everything to the isk/hour they can earn running missions, pathetic.
Anyone ever heard of fun? This is a game you know.
Because people don't do what they say they will, and rewards work for pushing people towards doing different things that you want them to do.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Doytard
Amarr the oNe Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.15 15:22:00 -
[186]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Ah, there's the misunderstanding. The point I was addressing originally was "the presence of pirates will necessitate rewards of some kind above and beyond those justified by the presence of hostile FW players". I'm not saying there's no benefit to fighting in FW (more in future blogs!), I'm saying the fact that the presence of neutral pirates as well doesn't change that equation - we don't need anything extra as a result of neutral pirates.
the misunderstanding is that we don't have the future blogs and are left to speculate on almost everything
and potsey why do you want this pve content, your on that mission and why not be ambushed by caldari players. far more dynamic than a bunch of kin/therm 1 launcher 1 gun npcs... and far more exciting.
that and wait... people actually just jump into lowsec in battleships? Hi how are you
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Ephemeral Waves
In terrorem
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Posted - 2008.05.15 15:23:00 -
[187]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale please WAIT UNTIL THE RELEVANT BLOG BEFORE GETTING WORKED UP. If you're not still not happy after we've published the blog and discussed the issues, then by all means make that clear in as constructive[/b] a manner as possible.
Post the blog then and stop jerking us around.
Sheesh, this isn't rocket science.
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Greenbolt
Minmatar Un4seen Development
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Posted - 2008.05.15 15:53:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Ephemeral Waves Edited by: Ephemeral Waves on 15/05/2008 15:27:29
Post the blog then and stop jerking us around.
Sheesh, this isn't rocket science.
Aye This teaser system of blogs is doing its obvious goal. get people excited/annoyed/interested in the update...But when you post a blog with vague information and then say...wait till we post the next blog for real details..
your gonna get speculation ...worries..thoughts etc. Give us lots of details..real facts...information to analyze and quit teasing us..
--------------------------------------------------- Scordite -Who was it that said that flying minmatar is kinda like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an uzi? |
Sapphrine
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.05.15 15:53:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Andres Talas
And the advice 'Talk to Hardin' is possibly the most constructive bit of advice you could get at this point.
Whatever plans you've got for discussing, talk them over with Hardin first.
I hope to god they talk to a hell of a lot of other people instead of hardin tbh. CVA are barely a RP entity at this point, having far more in common with a normal 0.0 alliance. Hardin's opinions on FW will be heavily skewed by his play perception based on CVA's desire to claim Providence as an Amarrian mandate / province etc. That really isn't the play style that I'd want if i was trying to ease into pvp.
I think CCP will do far better talking to the likes of eve university and other budding pvpers looking to get into it and what they find to be barriers rather than pandering to those of us that have been at this a while :)
Read what has been said, this is a way to bridge from empire to 0.0 in pvp. That it involves RP and the various factions is good and adds a second angle but I think that their focus has been clearly stated.
I look forward to how it pans out and what role the faction RPers will have but i'm looking at it as the tool it is for now. Hopefully i'll be pleasantly suprised :)
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.05.15 16:07:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Pottsey Adding in PvE to faction warfare is better then just having PvP content only.
Going a bit beyond this statement, adding PvE content would be a good thing considering PvE content has the option to be a LOT more complex then PvP. NPCs can do a lot of things that PCs can't do, like set up acceleration gates, all those wonderful structures, sentry guns, destroyable resources (mining colonies etc?)
The point being that NPC content far outstrips what players can actually build and deploy, and having those elements integrated into FW would add significant richness to it
I will be curious to read the next few blogs and see if they have any plans there.
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Oakrayven
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Posted - 2008.05.15 16:38:00 -
[191]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Andres Talas
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
I'm not sure I understand why "additional reward" is needed. A core concept of the system is that you will be exposed to PvP and you will be shot at, even if you choose not to shoot back. Why does it make a difference who's shooting at you?
(Issues relating to compensation, PvE vs PvP and so on will be made clearer in a couple of blogs' time)
Because getting your frigates smartbombed at a gatecamp isnt a lot of fun, and teaches you not to ever do this again.
Oh, and that small gang conflict just had a couple of carriers hotdropped by a bored 0.0 alliance who'se POS op got cancelled.
There are *reasons* losec is pretty much abandoned, after all.
Again, why does it matter who is shooting you, be it FW players or random pirates? That's the bit I don't understand.
As to other issues, as I have said repeatedly these issues will be discussed in a future blog and the comments thread connected to it. We already have plans for how we are going to discuss these issues with the community but it's premature to go into further details at this point. Again, just to emphasise this point, please WAIT UNTIL THE RELEVANT BLOG BEFORE GETTING WORKED UP. If you're not still not happy after we've published the blog and discussed the issues, then by all means make that clear in as constructive a manner as possible.
The problem is you guys keep doing things that prove you DONT HAVE A BLOODLY CLUE!
currently the situation is this
From Lowest risk to highest
0.0 "Junk space"(systems that virutaly noone in 0.0 cares about becuase theirs functionaly as usless to the 00 corps and aliances as an empire .99 sec system with no stations and 1 roidbelt is to a mission runner) 0.0 "Aliance core space" High sec Empire, Average High Sec 4+18mission hubs 0.0 the Current Warzone Low sec botlenecks with gatecamps
Frankly from the look of things so far, you guys could not be ARSED to figure out why the rest of us consider Level 5 missions a waste of effort, and now we see you comeing out with something that sounds like its little more than more Level 5 agents, same crapy reward for the effort but now with more risk. . .
Do yourselves a favor
look at the people who are doing Level 4s, and have max standings ACTUALY LOOK, see what they are flying, what their rigs and mods are, and their implants. then ask your self honestly how you plan to balance risking THAT vs some crapy mission payout when the plan is for them to lose half the time? (after all that is exactly how PvP works!)
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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.05.15 16:57:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Tatsue Nuko
What I want is the ability to tag us as against all the empires, thereby allowing everyone that signed up for any of them the ability to attack us anywhere. The problem I want adressed is the ability of ebil anarchists like myself and mine to hide behind the protection of the empires that we attack.
Obviously if you are an enemy of all the empires, they will not support you in any way. Factional warfare is just a means to circumvent current Concord jurisdiction and non-agression agreement between empires.
FW is factions funding war decs for people that declare themselves loyal to said faction. If you declare yourself loyal to no-one, nobody will fund your war decs. Such is the price of anarchism. The SF policy has always been 'we have the individual responsibility to take care of oneself', this is now just more true than ever. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
ArmyOfMe
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.05.15 16:59:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Pottsey
How do you fight Caldari without PvP, I donĘt know get sent on an Gallente escort mission and Caldari warp in and ambush you. Get sent to ambush a Caldari escort mission. There are tons of options for PvE Faction warfare.
wouldnt you feel its rather stupid if you as a gallente rp'er could go blow up stuff in caldari space without those taking part of FW beeing able to protect caldari assets?
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Doytard
Amarr the oNe Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.15 17:01:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Oakrayven The problem is you guys keep doing things that prove you DONT HAVE A BLOODLY CLUE!
currently the situation is this
From Lowest risk to highest
0.0 "Junk space"(systems that virutaly noone in 0.0 cares about becuase theirs functionaly as usless to the 00 corps and aliances as an empire .99 sec system with no stations and 1 roidbelt is to a mission runner) 0.0 "Aliance core space" High sec Empire, Average High Sec 4+18mission hubs 0.0 the Current Warzone Low sec botlenecks with gatecamps
Frankly from the look of things so far, you guys could not be ARSED to figure out why the rest of us consider Level 5 missions a waste of effort, and now we see you comeing out with something that sounds like its little more than more Level 5 agents, same crapy reward for the effort but now with more risk. . .
Do yourselves a favor
look at the people who are doing Level 4s, and have max standings ACTUALY LOOK, see what they are flying, what their rigs and mods are, and their implants. then ask your self honestly how you plan to balance risking THAT vs some crapy mission payout when the plan is for them to lose half the time? (after all that is exactly how PvP works!)
where does junk lowsec go?
also highsec is definitely safer than even junk 0.0 provided your not in a hauler with goodies in the hold, or uber raven.
the reward system is currently ??? aka you may be risking a battle ship, doubt it will be crappy rewards... heh and some pvpers fly with faction battleships, faction implants, and/or faction equipment. if a gank raven costs 10mil or so to a ganker adding rigs and tank to that makes it what? 60-70mil tops?
Oh also max standings = jumpclones, i looked the other day at +4 implant prices when i bought mine, and compared to the price of +3s, about a year ago +3s were selling for the same price as +4s are selling now
what about the 0.0 players that fly moms and titans into battle.... how much isk is that on the line, lots of carebear activities go into that production
my corp was thinking of doing level 5s a while ago, but the reward just seems too low to send 5 players at one of the missions. even if it was in highsec Hi how are you
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Reecoh Soltar
Exotic Dancer Talent Agency Zeta Tau Epsilon
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Posted - 2008.05.15 17:08:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Goumindong
2. Will people be able to join factional warfare without leaving their corp. We know that corps can't join if they are in alliances[and this is bad btw, and if you want, i can explain a few reasons why], but can a player join without leaving his corp? Basically what i want to know is can i sign up for FW without leaving Merch Industrial if Merch Industrial does not leave Goonswarm?
Kinda along these lines, I was wondering if a corp is aligned to say Amarr and has a member who has high Gallente but low Amarr (say worse than -5) is that pilot going to be able to fight for Amarr and raise that standing (while lowering his Gallente)? I know Greyscale probably won't address this here (it being the wrong DevBlog) but hopefully this can be answered in the right DevBlog.
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Usagi Tsukino
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.05.15 17:11:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Merdaneth FW is factions funding war decs for people that declare themselves loyal to said faction. If you declare yourself loyal to no-one, nobody will fund your war decs. Such is the price of anarchism. The SF policy has always been 'we have the individual responsibility to take care of oneself', this is now just more true than ever.
You are not understanding the point she's making.
We want YOU to be able to shoot as us, as enemies of ALL governments and factions, without sec-status loss, need for wardecs, etc.
Right now there is no way for YOU to be able to attack us as an enemy of the Amarr, via the FW system. That is what makes us sad, and that is what Tats would like to see fixed! ---
Usagi Tsukino // Revolutionary Stimulus |
Sgt Napalm
Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.05.15 17:11:00 -
[197]
Edited by: Sgt Napalm on 15/05/2008 17:11:37 Risky, interesting and different. Thank you CCP. I look forward to more blogs about the subject.
On another note there was discussion from another Dev about changes to sec status according to concord standings. Will this change take place with this expansion?
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theteck
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Posted - 2008.05.15 17:21:00 -
[198]
that like good but for people, but without money maybe not ...
if faction war pay the ship or insure the ship and fit maybe can be fun for new people
because when we are new ... lost 300 millions affraid a lot :)
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Latex Underwear
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Posted - 2008.05.15 17:28:00 -
[199]
Originally by: theteck that like good but for people, but without money maybe not ... if faction war pay the ship or insure the ship and fit maybe can be fun for new people
because when we are new ... lost 300 millions affraid a lot :)
Then don't be stupid. Fly something you can afford. If you can't afford to lose a faction fitted commandship (300mill!) then fly a cruiser or a frigate.
</EvE PvP101> |
Masu'di
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2008.05.15 17:33:00 -
[200]
Will the Thukkers and Syndicate likely get a look in, in the next iteration of factional warfare? Knowing whether this will potentially be the case, will be extremely helpful in planning our future.
cheers,
Mas
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Oakrayven
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.15 18:07:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Masu'di Will the Thukkers and Syndicate likely get a look in, in the next iteration of factional warfare? Knowing whether this will potentially be the case, will be extremely helpful in planning our future.
cheers,
Mas
Odds are that by the time their Ready to do new factions, the existing faction winner will be hard welded in, for example if we(Gal) get owned and defacto driven out of our "FW space", their will be negative incentive for the wining side (Cal) to give up their FW farming operation for the new faction, if the new faction is at war with Cal their going to be so far ahead in FW scoring that it will be pointless. (unless their plan is to keep grafting factions into the "war" so that their "at war" with the leaders in order to try to "balance" things.)
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Prospectus Major
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Posted - 2008.05.15 18:08:00 -
[202]
I so far am failing to see what is going to draw people into PVP. Hopefully that will be explained in future blogs. As it stands I see nothing changing from the current losec status where anyone can shoot you except the possibility that it is limited that those of your faction cannot. Then again what is to stop them from doing so? Ok so you can gain control of some 'space' for your faction...how does this differ from having to defeat some POS's. Seems that would be easier to do with a sizeable group and therefore again where is the draw INTO pvp for those who arent already involved.
I guess the question overall is what 'reward' is going to be significant enough to entice a non-pvp player into risking thier ship/equipment in lo-sec compared to moving to 0.0 which is relatively safer while 'learning the ropes'? I see this drawing the experienced PVP'r but not the 'Wannabe'
You are stating that FW privides a halfway house....to date I see no halfway unless the battle ends 1 point before the ship goes boom and is counted as a defeat while retaining the ship and gaining the experience to move into full pvp where ship loss is a potential given. That I would see as the comparison to WOW where the PVP essentially ends in defeat and not death.
As to the comment stated concerning 'what does it matter 'who' is shooting at you' I would offer this answer. Now in these losec areas the new pvp'r would not only have to worry about the pirates but additionally other factions increasing risk substantially. Again how does this added risk entice anyone INTO pvp?
The comment in the OP stating 'while moving from one to the other is possible its harder than it should be' is false. It is extremely simple to move into 0.0 avoiding all potential gate camps. Simply sell off all of your ships ect and move a clone to the 0.0 system you want to go to. Then simply self distruct your pod and repurchase your ship/equipment. Bingo you moved and avoided all potential loss in the move. Many already use this technique to get/train new skills now. Move clone to empire and destruct pod, buy skill and begin training it, move clone back into 0.0 and destruct pod again. How is this 'halfway house' adding specific places for gatecampers going to 'ease' this transition?
Overall more information which is forthcoming is needed for understanding the 'enticing factor' and I look forward to the upcoming further blogs on the issue.
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Oakrayven
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.15 18:14:00 -
[203]
who knows
Mayhaps joining a faction means you get to fly "their" ships for free and whatever level of faction ships/implants that your rated for are replaced for free? Gee we get to save on the insurace cost
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jacob2471
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Posted - 2008.05.15 18:41:00 -
[204]
good luck with it greyscale. ill rant or cheer when i see the rest of the dev blogs. but more content to a already good game can only be a good thing hmmmm :)
goodluck.
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X3k5
Amarr Brotherhood of the Phoenix Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.05.15 19:02:00 -
[205]
So far so good I believe. As has been mentioned before, Not everyone wants to pay for expensive ships that can get obliterated very quickly.
Its like joining an Army for your country and having to pay for your own weapons/tanks/planes.
So my question is will we get free war supplies and perhaps progressive ones. For example a player who has killed a lot more for his faction will progress to a free battleship from a Battlecruiser and so on. If not free supplies how about reimbursement for getting the ship destroyed in a FW battle.
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.05.15 19:05:00 -
[206]
Originally by: X3k5
So my question is will we get free war supplies and perhaps progressive ones. For example a player who has killed a lot more for his faction will progress to a free battleship from a Battlecruiser and so on. If not free supplies how about reimbursement for getting the ship destroyed in a FW battle.
We could always handle it the way real military contractors work.
Charge the government for 150% (or somesuch) for every cost and piece of equipment destroyed. Kinda reduces the advantages to winning an encounter, but that is what ends up happening IRL too ^_^
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Ivar Strahm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 19:26:00 -
[207]
Originally by: X3k5 So far so good I believe. As has been mentioned before, Not everyone wants to pay for expensive ships that can get obliterated very quickly.
Its like joining an Army for your country and having to pay for your own weapons/tanks/planes.
So my question is will we get free war supplies and perhaps progressive ones. For example a player who has killed a lot more for his faction will progress to a free battleship from a Battlecruiser and so on. If not free supplies how about reimbursement for getting the ship destroyed in a FW battle.
Am I the only one that sees this as a bad thing? I'm perfectly willing to admit to being insane if that's the case, but seriously, how is lightening up the death penalty a good thing?
EVE has always been the "hardcore" PvP game, where losing your ship means loss of ISK and time setting up a new ship. If factional warfare takes that away I'm afraid it will make the game a mere shell of what it used to be. Where will the adrenalin rush of jumping into low sec go if getting killed just means respawning at your chosen station with little or no actual loss?
Never mind comparisons to real life. This is a game. And it has always been marketed as having a harsh death penalty. Are you taking this away from us, CCP?
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Odhinn Vinlandii
Gothic Fleet Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.15 19:32:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Salacir Khan
"FWZ! FCWZ! FCWZ! FCWZ! FCBG ! FCBG! FWBG! WOBG! WOWBG! WoWBG! WoWBG! WoWBG! WoWBG! WoWBG! WoWBG! WoWBG! WoW-BG!" Ranks and Ribbons! YaY! \o/
Can I have your stuff?
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Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2008.05.15 19:37:00 -
[209]
Obviously we need to see the blog that talks about the FW rewards, before that we're just speculating.
But I don't see contextual (FW only) reduction in the death penalty as a bad thing. There's lots of screaming in this thread about the risks of lowsec -- and I agree there's currently little reason to go there -- but jacking up the reward is not the only solution. Reducing the risk also works.
I am hoping and imagining that there's some sort of military subsidy for FW losses -- something that lessens the sting and makes it easier to jump back out there for the next battle. Enhanced insurance would be the boring approach; small deliveries of Caldari Navy gear appearing in your hanger (with dire "for use only on official business!" stickers) would be fun too.
The other thing I'm hoping for is that there's some mechanism that prevents your fellow FW pilots from betraying you. If ganging up for a FW project has all the current risks of ganging with strangers, nobody sane is going to do it. But if attacking (or even just podding) a fellow member of your FW faction brought a concord-like response from some faction navy vessels, I'll be a lot more inclined to jump in a battlecruiser and go looking for FW fun. That's the biggest reason I don't go PVP-ing now: I don't have anybody I can trust to do it with. If FW includes a mechanism for changing that (short of the whole corp/alliance thing), it will be full of win. ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Admus
Multiverse Corporation Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.05.15 20:01:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Admus So what happens if one race happens to be a favourite for folks to sign up with. Say, Amarr. Could this jacked up faction completely take all of the, say, minmatar regions? Annihilate them completely from the map? If so, is that OK?
I just wanted to post this again in the hope that it gets noticed this time around. I'm not sure if the game would benefit from the complete annihilation of a certain race (except perhaps those dirty, dirty Gallente) which I believe is an eventual possibility here, based on the information we've received thus far.
---------------------------------------------------------- "Villains always have antidotes. They're funny that way." |
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