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EspionageX Perkone	Posted - 2008.11.19 07:37:00 - [241] Heh, what you outlined is acceptable. Although I can see how you can abuse your oh so shiny flashy red-ness against noob players who don't know better - perhaps mandatory lock out of starter systems?
Sebea Bottomfeeders Science and Research	Posted - 2008.11.19 07:43:00 - [242] Originally by: Dantes Revenge Originally by: Omarvelous I want more options and diversity in this game. High sec is a snooze fest - my suggestion would spice it up a little. With NO risk to someone who doesn't want to participate. If you don't like the snooze fest, why do you want to go back into it? Sounds to me like you want suicide gankers never to have the problem that's associated with a low sec rating. It also sounds like you're after free targets, ie: noobs who don't fully understand the game yet. Quote: Its WIN freakin' WIN for outlaws!!! Fix'd I fail to see how this would be a win for non-outlaws. The win is the current method of seeing you get your ass handed to you on a plate by police then, taking out your pod for the bounty before you can get to the gate to jump back out of the system. There are currently already ways you can get back into highsec if you want to. Way to totally not grasp a single argument presented in the whole thread, that must have taken effort
Cyber Blue Gallente Cyber Blue Consulting	Posted - 2008.11.19 08:27:00 - [243] Well, I had a long post, then lost it. That ***es me off, oh well. Short version. I believe your argument has merit, however, I am not convinced of how it should be set up. Would outlaws be able to move around more without the need for carriers/freighters? Yes. Explain this more for me, in case I ever become a pirate. Doesn't your alt do everything in high-sec already? Would the outlaws' friends get GCC and concord for remote assitance? Yes. Wouldn't you get tired of coming into high-sec alone and getting popped quickly? NPC pirate factions seem to have bases of operation in high-sec deadspace areas. This would explain why they are there and not to mention, they are there to give people something to do. I do not see them at gates or stations or anywhere else in high-sec but belts and missions. I had some ideas of ownership of deadspace for smuggling operations and what not. The ownership gave benefits to pirates or whoever owned them. For example, pirate friends can help each other as long as that deadspace is owned by them. Other people owning a deadspace stopped other people from entering their missions. Which I'm not sure why people can go into someone elses' mission anyways. Damn, I know next time to copy the text just in case. Too sleepy to try and think up all of it and write it again. End of line...
Furb Killer Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.19 08:31:00 - [244] Personally i probably would enjoy it if outlaws actually went to high sec, wouldnt be station hugging and docking every time a non rookie attacked them, and besides that were just targets i can attack without seeing local spike immediatly. However lets stay realistic. OP can keep telling that he doesnt want to make travelling through high sec easier, it would still be the result. And i dont think it should be easier. Many rookies would open fire and then be killed by the piwates, without any chance to win. Suicide gankers could continue their stuff without having to worry about sec status. You cant do it when you want to suicide gank a freighter, but with weapons grouping it shouldnt be so hard to alpha strike an industrial. So then concord that shadows you wouldnt make a difference. --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.11.19 08:43:00 - [245] Originally by: Sebea Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Sebea No, it really can't, casual combat is pretty much gone from EVE Maybe that's because people don't actually want it as much as we would like them to want it…It can be had — people just choose not to engage in it. I roam solo, ALOT, and what i find to be the constant is that people A) dock when close to death B) jump back through gates C) call in massive numbers of support. And that is exactly my point. The reason we're not seing a lot of casual combat right now is not because the mechanics don't allow for it, or because opportunities don't exist — it's that, apparently, people aren't interested in it (in a very general sense). The proposal does nothing to adress this lack of interest and the exceptions to this general rule — the ones who'd actually make use of such a change — don't need it because they can find or arrange fights even without it. So I don't see how it would improve anything, whereas I do see how it would make griefing far easier (the kinds of griefing that actually exist in the game, rather than the standard "waaah, he attacked me for no reason!1"-whines). No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Lionel Redstar	Posted - 2008.11.19 09:14:00 - [246] I agree with OP. Pirats have no gain from this except they are not shoot by the NPC police. The are still valid targets for players and will not be saved by concord. P.S. I bet that at least half of those who said it's a bad ideea are the same ppl who whine about low-sec gatecamps
Venduras	Posted - 2008.11.19 09:25:00 - [247] CONCORD response time would have to be greatly reduced towards outlaws, as they could suicide gank endlessly even at -10 in high-sec.
Durty Nell Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.11.19 10:54:00 - [248] I understand your points and the arguments you use to back them up. A guy from Ushra Khan gave a nice post earlier which you either ignored or somehow missed in the rabble. Any way even at that IÆm still a bit confused. The thing is my friend why would these people want to change the existing system? As it stands they can shoot a Blinky Red in any system from 0.0 to 0.4 and from 0.5 to 1.0 with impunity should they chose to hunt. It would appear to me that there would be absolutely no reason from the bearÆs perspective. This is where the confusion lays for me, what benefit, if any, do the bears get if such a plan was implemented?
TrulyKosh Gallente Solo for UNCLE	Posted - 2008.11.19 11:07:00 - [249] Edited by: TrulyKosh on 19/11/2008 11:36:00 Edited by: TrulyKosh on 19/11/2008 11:35:03 Originally by: Omarvelous Right now - a high sec player wanting to fight an outlaw - has to travel into low sec through gate camps and fight on the pirates' terms - I'm offering you guys a chance to fight on your terms! Most likely "your terms" would would mean you hanging out cloaked at a gate in your arazu, waiting to suicide juicy t1 haulers. Sorry, but wasn't a large part of past patches designed to get rid of that kind of thing? No need to bring it back. Other than that ... what's to stop the pirate's corp to war dec all the player corps in high sec with 1000s of potential targets which would normally be way out of reach because they never ever enter low sec? Once war is declared, all the fluffy game mechanics working in favor of the carebear cease working as intended, because the pirate is in a place where he should not be (and actively worked his way out of).
Prodigy Systems	Posted - 2008.11.19 11:31:00 - [250] Fail post. Fail pirate. You have to realise, if you are a piece of ***t, you better get used to living in a toilet.
Ratchman	Posted - 2008.11.19 11:55:00 - [251] I have no problem with the idea of outlaws being able to travel through high-sec (I'd like the option of hunting them down when they intrude), but you have to counter the suicide gank, and I'm not sure anyone has effectively solved that. It could be that any outlaw fleet is instantly ganked by concord upon entering, or formation in high-sec, thus preventing group organisation, but that doesn't stop the individual from doing that. Maybe if it can be made so it is just impossible for the outlaw to initiate combat (disabled keys or some other alternative). Perhaps they could only use weapons once fired upon, and only against their attacker. It's a thorny problem, and the reason pirates were prevented from entering highsec in the first place was because of suicide ganking, so an effective counter must be provided if this is to change. There does seem to be an awful lot of outlaw v carebear hate in here,and it is about time you all learned not to judge everyone with brush strokes. Not all carebears are PVP shy. I love PVP, and frequently indulge in factional warfare and dip into 0.0 now and again. Conversely, not all pirates are gatecampers and suicide gankers. There is enough to be annoying at those lowsec chokepoints, but they are only a percentage of the whole. Learn to appreciate that people play in different ways, and they both fill a niche in the game. Without carebears, there would be little in the way of economy, and without pirates, there would be little risk (and therefore excitement).
Rozoq	Posted - 2008.11.19 12:08:00 - [252] Edited by: Rozoq on 19/11/2008 12:35:04 Originally by: Omarvelous Originally by: Lady Karma Edited by: Lady Karma on 18/11/2008 17:57:44 Originally by: Omarvelous OK I'll meet you halfway. Anyone with a sec status lower than what the system allows would be free to shoot at by anyone with a high enough sec status. -2.5 player goes to 1.0 system. Status changes from yellow to flashy red (no GCC - just local killrights). High sec status gives you all the game mechanics in your favor then! I'm still puzzled as to how you think that will benfit your gameplay. People that don't want to shoot you, wont shoot you. The only benefit would be that you can shop in high sec without the hassle of moving your BS back to low sec. The motive for your change seems to be your own laziness. You did admit you cba to sec up Laziness motive reinforced by Po3tank Think it through. Will I an outlaw go shopping in high sec? HELL NO! ie. I go to Jita to buy and fit up my ship. Sweet - I got it and I'm going to undock... BUT WAIT! 200 people undocked see me (outlaw) undocked in his ship. Seeing that they have free rights to shoot me and POD me, and that my corp mates cannot not assist me in anyway I die horribly. I dont want to shop with my outlaw character. I have an industrial alt to take care of all my high sec shopping needs. I in turn manufacture all my - and my corp's needs in low sec. I don't need high sec shopping. I want MORE fights - even if all the game mechanics favor YOU! You know gate campers noob killers ummm i mean pirates such as yourself really give way too much credit to yourselves in the world of EVE.. so what you pop a few few shuttles or drunk players pffft!! You are not a bad guy your just actually an anchor tied around this games neck most are ready to move on a have a combat system worthy of EVE but it will never happen cause of players like you, and really you think like 200 players in Jita would even care or notice most would just have some pve set up and you could prolly escape without too much worry.. I look at low sec like this.. every friday after work i come home and take a shower then walk across a park to this bar on the other side when im sober its pretty easy to not step in Dog Sh!t but every once in while when im really smashed on my way home ill step in some and its sucks but oh well i guess. Low sec for me is just a walk in that park going to 0,0 then going through it again to get back home generally wasted, and you would be the thing i step in from time to time..I for the most part dont care what or how people play there game but this sounds like as if you have broke your toy and wonder why nobody wants to play.... have fun!! Another thing is everyone i know from carebear to alliance 0,0 people are sick of the gate camp thing and blobs are getting pretty old the thing is that most 0,0 people would prolly love to see blobs go bye bye and get into some good fights while on the other hand if CCP ever tried to fix the gate camp thing you guys would all ragequit and have to go back to WoW to corpse camp cause your game here would be over i couldnt imagine most of you actually having to hunt for your kills!! thanx for holding us back and making them keep a lame system in game.. But all and all we do need pirates and i respect that and i do go play with them sometimes and there are few that really just want a good fight and i enjoy that(props to some of the UPS guys in amarr low sec) but most just want to camp and really it just seems like a pathetic system for such a cool game..
Troezar Fatality. United Federation of Capsuleers	Posted - 2008.11.19 12:27:00 - [253] Let's face it CCP of old saw EVE as a niche PVP game, in fact it was the whole reason for EVE. More and more carebears flooded in and now it is seen as a cash cow. PVP especially non concensual threatens the cash flowing in hence PVP is getting harder. I'm betting if removal of PVP would double the income it would disappear tomorrow...the old EVE will never return
Furb Killer Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.19 12:29:00 - [254] Originally by: Troezar Let's face it CCP of old saw EVE as a niche PVP game, in fact it was the whole reason for EVE. More and more carebears flooded in and now it is seen as a cash cow. PVP especially non concensual threatens the cash flowing in hence PVP is getting harder. I'm betting if removal of PVP would double the income it would disappear tomorrow...the old EVE will never return Want some cheese with that whine? --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
Troezar Fatality. United Federation of Capsuleers	Posted - 2008.11.19 12:34:00 - [255] Furb you are so original I would expect it though from a 12yr old No whine just the facts, it's a business I don't expect any changes for just me. More fights would be fun but there is a reason I and lots of others hang around still. Eve is a good game just not as fun as it was but us optimists keep hoping one day it might be... As an aside I used to love seeing M0o around back in the day, used to crap myself as a noob That was fun!
Rozoq	Posted - 2008.11.19 12:39:00 - [256] Edited by: Rozoq on 19/11/2008 12:40:56 Originally by: Troezar Furb you are so original I would expect it though from a 12yr old No whine just the facts, it's a business I don't expect any changes for just me. More fights would be fun but there is a reason I and lots of others hang around still. Eve is a good game just not as fun as it was but us optimists keep hoping one day it might be... As an aside I used to love seeing M0o around back in the day, used to crap myself as a noob That was fun! I dunno i think the PVP thing makes EVE what it is... scary as a noob and actually gets your heart pounding but as of late with blobs and gates its more like blah!! I dont think anyone has a problem getting killed in a fight but who actually fights now days?
Mashie Saldana Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.11.19 12:49:00 - [257] I see the advantage to kill more outlaws in highsec, however it would also bring suicide ganking to an all new level as those specialised in that can keep on doing it more or less as before without a real penalty.
WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp	Posted - 2008.11.19 13:04:00 - [258] **************** The reason high sec npc pirates are allowed in high sec without concord intervention is because the npc pirates are at war with the empires and concord does not interfere with war decs. **************** ----------------------------------------------- "I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation."
Lord Zoran House of Tempers	Posted - 2008.11.19 13:12:00 - [259] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Omarvelous I think it would be neat to allow outlaws to come back into high sec without faction police shooting them on site. Would concord still attack if the pirate commits a crime? Yes - infact response times vs outlaws could be enhanced (concord shadowing you). Would players still be allowed to freely agress AND pod kill the outlaw? Yes. Would outlaws be able to move around more without the need for carriers/freighters? Yes. Would the outlaws' friends get GCC and concord for remote assitance? Yes. Huge disadvantage for a pvp corp. More pvp and more customers for industrialists. Honestly its stacked in favor of non-pirates by a good bit. Thoughts? An old idea but still an excellent one. yup definately a great idea
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.19 14:07:00 - [260] Originally by: TrulyKosh Edited by: TrulyKosh on 19/11/2008 11:36:00 Edited by: TrulyKosh on 19/11/2008 11:35:03 Originally by: Omarvelous Right now - a high sec player wanting to fight an outlaw - has to travel into low sec through gate camps and fight on the pirates' terms - I'm offering you guys a chance to fight on your terms! Most likely "your terms" would would mean you hanging out cloaked at a gate in your arazu, waiting to suicide juicy t1 haulers. Sorry, but wasn't a large part of past patches designed to get rid of that kind of thing? No need to bring it back. Other than that ... what's to stop the pirate's corp to war dec all the player corps in high sec with 1000s of potential targets which would normally be way out of reach because they never ever enter low sec? Once war is declared, all the fluffy game mechanics working in favor of the carebear cease working as intended, because the pirate is in a place where he should not be (and actively worked his way out of). What Arazu pilot has the dps to insta a hauler and the tank to survive for a split second? Who would be stupid enough to haul valuables in an untanked t1 hauler? Have you missed my posts about concord shadowing you so you CANT suicide gank?! What's to stop ANYONE and EVERYONE from popping the outlaws 1 by 1 as they try to attack war targets?! Common dude THINK things through BEYOND your risk averse perspective!
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.19 14:10:00 - [261] CONCORD COULD SHADOW YOU AND INSTA PWN AN OUTLAW FOR ANY CRIMNAL ACT IN 0.0 - ELIMINATING Outlaw suicide ganks in high sec. CONCORD COULD SHADOW YOU AND INSTA PWN AN OUTLAW FOR ANY CRIMNAL ACT IN 0.0 - ELIMINATING Outlaw suicide ganks in high sec. CONCORD COULD SHADOW YOU AND INSTA PWN AN OUTLAW FOR ANY CRIMNAL ACT IN 0.0 - ELIMINATING Outlaw suicide ganks in high sec. CONCORD COULD SHADOW YOU AND INSTA PWN AN OUTLAW FOR ANY CRIMNAL ACT IN 0.0 - ELIMINATING Outlaw suicide ganks in high sec. CONCORD COULD SHADOW YOU AND INSTA PWN AN OUTLAW FOR ANY CRIMNAL ACT IN 0.0 - ELIMINATING Outlaw suicide ganks in high sec. CONCORD COULD SHADOW YOU AND INSTA PWN AN OUTLAW FOR ANY CRIMNAL ACT IN 0.0 - ELIMINATING Outlaw suicide ganks in high sec. There - I repeated it often enough - I am NOT looking to boost suicide ganks for outlaws.
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.19 14:16:00 - [262] Originally by: Durty Nell This is where the confusion lays for me, what benefit, if any, do the bears get if such a plan was implemented? If outlaws could participate in high sec they could engage in war decs - with the caveat that all of eve can interrupt their fight. Yes their movement would be greatly enhanced - there are dozens of penalties for going outlaw however - ALL the game mechanics work AGAINST you in empire pvp sceanario. Its an added bonus to me - I still move where I need to regardless. I just want to expand pvp - and make the policing situation less AI and more people oriented. Policing could be an excellent new occupation for high sec pvpers. For those worried about NOOB kills - an Outlaw would have to be extremely bored to waste a ship killing ibis's. If the insurance payout hasn't been canceled in the recent patch - It should be implemented for outlaws at the very least to further discourage suicide ganks by outlaws.
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.11.19 14:24:00 - [263] Originally by: Omarvelous Originally by: Durty Nell This is where the confusion lays for me, what benefit, if any, do the bears get if such a plan was implemented? If outlaws could participate in high sec they could engage in war decs - with the caveat that all of eve can interrupt their fight. […] Policing could be an excellent new occupation for high sec pvpers. Ok, but you didn't really asnwer the question: what benefit, if any, do the bears get if such a plan was implemented? No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.19 14:25:00 - [264] Edited by: Omarvelous on 19/11/2008 14:28:25 Originally by: Tippia So I don't see how it would improve anything, whereas I do see how it would make griefing far easier (the kinds of griefing that actually exist in the game, rather than the standard "waaah, he attacked me for no reason!1"-whines). I'v given some tweaks on concord to avoid griefing abuses. Why are you so opposed to a player oriented policing effort that I am trying to promote? All the game mechanics are already in place to assist you. I'm adding a few to help you even more. If you DONT want to pvp an outlaw you dont have to. They will be powerless to commit crimes in high sec with my proposal. They will be allowed to travel there and to engage war targets (until local forms up to push them out). War decee's would have ALL of Eve as their mercs to help them vs an outlaw corp. You could put a beacon on outlaws to assist locals in finding outlaws even more. A new level of cat and mouse. Outlaws could fight other outlaws in high sec - with the exceptino that others could crash the party. Right now high sec has VERY restricted and static PvP. A new player wishing to taste pvp has to travel to low sec - avoid getting ganked at teh gate - then HOPE to find a target - a target that has friends that shrug off sentries to help and destroy the noob. Now that same noob could get some experience in high sec with my system - AND have all the game mechanics at his disposal. Maybe he wouldd learn more - and get better - and head into low-sec/null-sec and start a good pvp career. My motives are for more pvp. * your signature file is too wide. Please note that we allow images no larger than 400x120 at 24,000 kb. - Fallout
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.19 14:27:00 - [265] Originally by: Tippia what benefit, if any, do the bears get if such a plan was implemented? Current game mechanics that give them ALL the advantages in a pvp encounter. - 1st strike - friendly assistance - hostile has NO support They have nothing to lose (since the outlaws can't commit crimes in high sec) so nothing more should be offered tbh. They won't be affected in the least should they choose to ignore the system. * your signature file is too wide. Please note that we allow images no larger than 400x120 at 24,000 kb. - Fallout
TrulyKosh Gallente Solo for UNCLE	Posted - 2008.11.19 14:28:00 - [266] Originally by: Omarvelous [ Who would be stupid enough to haul valuables in an untanked t1 hauler? Have you missed my posts about concord shadowing you so you CANT suicide gank?! What's to stop ANYONE and EVERYONE from popping the outlaws 1 by 1 as they try to attack war targets?! Common dude THINK things through BEYOND your risk averse perspective! a) people in high sec. you'd be surprised :) or probably not, that's why you want back into high sec :)) b) yep, sry. missed that one c) the same issues as in every war. you will not attack when you're in a hauler and flying one is one of the necessities of doing more than just mission running d) does spending years in 0.0 count as risk-averse? but, just for the fun of it: You are a known Somali/Etheopian pirate. What you want now is to travel freely to the Channel with docking rights in Southhampton and Calais. Add to that the ability to buy a Letter of Marque, do your business in the Channel and sell your loot in said ports. (I agree, business would be a lot easier for these guys, if they could just steer their tanker to Rotterdam) And on top, you do not even want to do your time in Somalia
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.11.19 14:31:00 - [267] Originally by: TrulyKosh You are a known Somali/Etheopian pirate. What you want now is to travel freely to the Channel with docking rights in Southhampton and Calais. Add to that the ability to buy a Letter of Marque, do your business in the Channel and sell your loot in said ports. (I agree, business would be a lot easier for these guys, if they could just steer their tanker to Rotterdam) And on top, you do not even want to do your time in Somalia I'll see your analogy and 1 up you with an in game analogy. Why are NPC rats (outlaw criminals with Concord bounties) allowed at all in high sec? They should be instantly bbqed by faction police. No belt rats. No mission rats (If I'm found at a deadspace - so can the rats). Get rid of NPC rats in high sec then. Just mine and trade in high sec. Orrrr - allow the rats to stay - and player outlaws as well! * your signature file is too wide. Please note that we allow images no larger than 400x120 at 24,000 kb. - Fallout
TrulyKosh Gallente Solo for UNCLE	Posted - 2008.11.19 14:35:00 - [268] Originally by: Omarvelous Originally by: TrulyKosh Why are NPC rats (outlaw criminals with Concord bounties) allowed at all in high sec? They should be instantly bbqed by faction police. No belt rats. No mission rats (If I'm found at a deadspace - so can the rats). Simple, they are not. That's why 1000s of agents are sending 1000s of players after them
flakeys Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name	Posted - 2008.11.19 14:39:00 - [269] As a 3 months retired pirate i can say the system works fine as it is.Don't change it.
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.11.19 14:47:00 - [270] Originally by: Omarvelous Why are you so opposed to a player oriented policing effort that I am trying to promote? I'm not. I'm just asking what it would actually add to the game? You assume that people will take advantage of this (supposedly) new opportunity when just about everything we see today suggests the opposite. I, on the other hand, assume that it will be abused — a lot speaks towards that happening. Quote: Right now high sec has VERY restricted and static PvP. A new player wishing to taste pvp has to travel to low sec - avoid getting ganked at teh gate - then HOPE to find a target - a target that has friends that shrug off sentries to help and destroy the noob. Now that same noob could get some experience in high sec with my system - AND have all the game mechanics at his disposal. Maybe he wouldd learn more - and get better - and head into low-sec/null-sec and start a good pvp career. …and I don't see this happening. It's a nice dream — no argument there — but what speaks in favour of this dream coming true? People who want to PvP can do it already. It's not hard to find. Yes, the PvP you find mostly sucks, but your suggestion does not adress the sucky parts — it only gives a few more opportunities for the same suckiness to happen. That's not an improvement, nor an worth-while addition. The same goes for the n00b experience: if he doesn't know what he's doing, the n00b is going to die in roughly no seconds flat (because he was dumb enough to attack a seasoned pirate). Will that really give him an incentive to seek out more of it? More importantly, if it does make him seek out more, it rather seems to me that he's the kind of person who seeks combat out already in the current system. In addition, if he does know what he's doing, then you won't enjoy the fight, and quite frankly, at that point, he'll know how to handle himself wherever there is PvP already. Your suggestion is just a displaced version of the regular "get more people into lowsec through mechanic X — it'll be more fun" suggestions. Just like those, you don't explain why X would actually work the way you envison it. The exact same goal as you're campaigning for can be achieved by saying "make it easier to get in and out of lowsec by making combat there consensual." The effect would be the same (and would fail for the same reasons); the only difference in what people you're trying to move, and to where. No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.

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