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Vin'calis
Gemini Sun
Violent-Tendencies
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Posted - 2008.12.02 15:56:00 -
[271]
 Originally by: Goyda
15 minute timer. If they hop into a ship before the GCC is up, concord will be in their SS pwning them again.
Absolutely, but even waiting out the timer and ganking 3 times an hour would wreak havoc among any mining ops, no? And they could use alts to resupply ships whilst waiting out the timer...
oh wait, at this point the orca's a bit redundant...
...hmm. 
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Goyda
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.12.02 16:07:00 -
[272]
Originally by: Vin'calis
Originally by: Goyda
15 minute timer. If they hop into a ship before the GCC is up, concord will be in their SS pwning them again.
Absolutely, but even waiting out the timer and ganking 3 times an hour would wreak havoc among any mining ops, no? And they could use alts to resupply ships whilst waiting out the timer...
oh wait, at this point the orca's a bit redundant...
...hmm.
If you think about it, you have 15minutes to setup a trap, if they are in local why fall for it AGAIN ! Think people THINK.
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Velvet Spice
Spice World
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Posted - 2008.12.02 16:20:00 -
[273]
Originally by: Shintai
Would this be another non tanked, no skills hulk post? And fitted for cargo to lower its tank ability even more?
would this be another idiot who has never tried to seriously tank a Hulk to withstand a directed attack? yeah you can pimp a Hulk to tank 0.0 spawns long enough for your drones to kill the rats, but a gank squad of 10+ specialized suicide ships is on a whole different level than that
I eat carebears for breakfast |
Velvet Spice
Spice World
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Posted - 2008.12.02 16:29:00 -
[274]
Originally by: Goyda
If you think about it, you have 15minutes to setup a trap, if they are in local why fall for it AGAIN ! Think people THINK.
you put "think" in capitals, now it's up to you to practise what you preach: it wouldn't have prevented the first gank, and it won't prevent other mining teams or a mining op 1-2 jumps out getting pwnt by the same borderline exploitation of game mechanics
I eat carebears for breakfast |
Goyda
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.12.02 16:31:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Velvet Spice
Originally by: Goyda
If you think about it, you have 15minutes to setup a trap, if they are in local why fall for it AGAIN ! Think people THINK.
you put "think" in capitals, now it's up to you to practise what you preach: it wouldn't have prevented the first gank, and it won't prevent other mining teams or a mining op 1-2 jumps out getting pwnt by the same borderline exploitation of game mechanics
I did think about it, the OP for this quote was speaking after the first gank. So I was suggesting that if you're concerned about a mining op and you are worried that 15 minutes later they come back in......duh. As for them going to other systems. Oh well.
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Frug
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.02 16:47:00 -
[276]
For the first time in as long as I can remember, I agree with a carebear that there is a problem with the game mechanics here that needs to be addressed.
He makes some good points that this issue on its own wouldn't be so bad, if it wasn't compounded with other game mechanics like insurance and the inability to attack the orca that is feeding these pirates.
A simple fix would be not to let people below -5 board ships in space in .5 systems and above?
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
Eluhaf
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Posted - 2008.12.02 16:48:00 -
[277]
CCp is going to have to do something on this. They learned their lesson when they took too long to react to the Jihadswarm, killing miners (even macros) costs them subscriptions.
Insurance mechanisms are to blame here, might be a good time to scale insurance payouts based on sec status. So sec status 0 and above get full payment as they do today, but you lose insurance as you get to -10. -1, only gets 90%, -2 only 80%, etc. Seems like much more of a real consequence to pirating then the current system. Having -10 sec status now only really makes it so you need alts to bring ships/supplies in for you.
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Galvatine
Caldari
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2008.12.02 16:48:00 -
[278]
I guess the same "problem" could exist with access rights to a friendly pos ship array.....
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voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.12.02 16:50:00 -
[279]
So the Orca isn't an all carebear ship after all.
Hate Farmers? Click Here |
Galvatine
Caldari
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2008.12.02 16:52:00 -
[280]
Originally by: voogru
So the Orca isn't an all carebear ship after all.
Im just happy that its found a use
Possible with a pos up to 0.7
Possible with an alt up to 1.0
Nothing new in this at all im hearing, just large groups of flashy reds able to do it at once..
Im gonna go dust off my covops and hunt me some pods ;)
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NeoTheo
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2008.12.02 16:53:00 -
[281]
I have zero problem with people getting sucided, ive had it happen to me.
My problem is with once a -10 gets in a ship in high sec, he should get some kinda of hassle from the cops;
at least i think i feel that way, to be honest this is pretty new to me; i just assumed the moment you got in a ship when you are -10 in high sec the faction navy turned up and prawned you.
ether way, great use of a new ship; not sure i the mechanic of the navy needs looking at; really cant figure it out in an "hmm good or bad " way.
before i get called a carebears ******* tho ;) i was not in faviour of the suicide gank nerf, i believe in pvp in all its aspects in eve, i think think the rules should be fairly clear and this one was clear as mud. ;)
- DAMT -
If you dont know, well, you dont know!
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Thoren Gregson
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Posted - 2008.12.02 17:01:00 -
[282]
IÆll agree that itÆs clever. That doesnÆt make it any less of an exploit/abuse.
The whole point is that the security status system is being circumvented and that the insurance system is being abused. Period.
If we canÆt agree that those two game mechanics are not being abused/exploited/circumvented then we have an issue. ThatÆs really the only question here. All the rest of the comments are irrelevant.
Everything else about this is fine. I thought I was pretty clear about that. IÆm not crying for my loses. IÆm dismayed that time after time the shady gray area of what is allowed and what isnÆt is never clear in Eve. I can adapt and adjust if I just know that something is allowed or isnÆt. This week itÆs allowed.. so do I invest, train and kit ships to counter this only to have it fixed/banned the next week? LetÆs say IÆm the pirate corp.. I go out and buy 5 orcas and 100 frigates to start plundering in empire only to have it fixed/banned the next week? Do you not see the big picture problem here? This kinda stuff seems to happen monthly.
Even now, CCP is reading over this thread trying to decide what the stance will be. That they have read it, there is no question. ItÆs been on the front page for almost 24 hours now, and 2 other threads created later (about something else) have already had a blue response or comment in them. But not this one. Why is that? Because once something is said about this.. it becomes ôset in stoneö and frankly they are not sure what (if anything) they are going to do about it. IÆm afraid that they might be waiting for the ôpopular voteö to decide or at least help them decide. There are at least two sides to very issue and itÆs refreshing that at least a few of you grasp that. When/if the nurf bat swings it needs to be looked at carefully from every angle.
ItÆs a bit comical how many people chime in with ideas on how to counter this. ItÆs even more hilarious for others to assume what we did or didnÆt do, how we fit our ships or even why we where stupid for not predicting the future.
ItÆs clear that a large number of people that have all of these cool suggestions about having combat ships on point guarding mining ops for hours on end are well out of touch with high sec mining ops. If your going to make suggestions, think about it first. Would YOU be willing to sit in a combat ship for hours staring at local and overview to ôguardö the little carebear miners? And if so what would you need as composition for YOUR time? 10 mill and hour or more? And how many days would you be willing to do that with no action? The biggest question is, just what are you going to do when 5 or more pirates warp in and start letting the fir fly? This whole thing takes less then 20 seconds total. The watching local when they appear and congregate has more merit and in a system with 30+ people flying in and out at any one timeà well. All I can say is, you try it and see how viable it is.
ItÆs also amusing to see how many people didnÆt read the entire original post or skimmed it. I stated that itÆs not really the orca that makes this happen, it just makes it easier.
I never said there are not counters to these tactics. Infact, rather then whine last week we took the time to track them with the very intent to ôdo something about it.ö I never said we DIDNÆT do something about it, thatÆs just not a relevant part of the story and frankly the post was too long anyway, most people didnÆt read the entire thing.. thatÆs clear from some of the responses.
Yes in hind site there are things we could have done differently to minimize this risk and some of them we have already been doing. But IÆm telling you now, when/if this becomes a wide use practice itÆs going to be a big problem. IÆm stating it now so it can be fixed now.. not 4 months later when 80% of the low sec population has moved into highsec and has effectively shutdown the industrial sector of Eve.
Take a look at all of the responses.. a large number of people are already congratulating and planning on how they can get in on the action too. What do you think is going to happen when à
You know what.. forget it. ItÆs like talking to a wall.
Hopefully with this post this tactic has been brought out into the open and we can have some sort of word from CCP about it being a valid tactic or announcing that something will be fixed / changed.
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Damoxenos
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Posted - 2008.12.02 17:02:00 -
[283]
ah the priates got to love em really lol
I am a high sec miner carebear or whatever you want to call me, but not a whiner or moaner
First off I like this idea, and kudos to the people who thought it up, I do however agree that something needs to be done, either with insurance payouts to concord losses (would that really change anything??) or restricting these low sec status players from doing this some how, be it stopping them from entering system or the lower sec status meaning concord would react even quicker...
But on the other hand, although I do not know your specific fittings, but why would you have cargo expanders whne in a group? you mine into a can normally right with a hauler that picks it up, so you should be fitting to either a) increase yeild b) increase tank or a mix of both...
Spreading out would make the op less efficient and more prone to can flippers due to their being more than one can, but mining close to low sec / null sec? in a busy system? I wouldnt do it, and I always have local open, ok you may not see much there, plus you should ALWAYS have your overview set up to view such pirates... and returning to the SAME spot later on I think was just asking for it to happen again...
Unlike most I can see both sides to the story, what would I like? well for the orca to have the same restriction the Rorqual has on the ships that can be in the bay, problem solved IMO....
Again Kudos to the players / pirates who thought this up, it is a sandbox game after all and thinking out of the box should always be praised
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Icarus Flame
Amarr
Van Ness Pet Hospital
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Posted - 2008.12.02 17:18:00 -
[284]
Heh kudos to the pirates.
I do think that this is a bit sploity, though. People shouldn't be able to repeatedly gank miners in highsec. While it's not evasion of Concord per se, it is in a way, because the reason, presumably, that Concord pwns people in the first place is prevention.
Note that the first gank was well within the rules of the game. Like I said, kudos. But use of the Orca to evade station guns and faction navies long enough to gank again is uncalled for.
the simple and obvious fix is to make the GCC of the pirate transfer to the pilot of the orca. Much like it transfers through remote repping. This would eliminate the repeated nature of these attacks, which is the real problem.
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Pontiff Greary
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Posted - 2008.12.02 17:21:00 -
[285]
What the OP describes seems like the very definition of what an "exploit" is.
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Threv Echandari
Caldari
K Directorate
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Posted - 2008.12.02 17:22:00 -
[286]
I'm definitely NOT in favor of restricting the kind of ships that can be fit in an ORCA, It means (for one thing) that you can't dock your mining ships and fetch Combat ships should the Need arise. The versatility of the ORCA is a strong point and the vehicle itself should not be nerfed. It really is a cool ship that has possibliies that people are now picking up on. (It would be nice if it could use the Black Ops Jump Portal...but I digress)
Now there is a good argument that the the aiding and abetting rules for Neutral ORCA pilots should be looked at just like Remote repping from Neutrals is frowned upon but thats about the Extent of it. (As I said in a previous post, I think that Concord should not be involved but the players should be able to deal with it (neut ORCA) on their own.)
----------------------------------------
Happiness is a Wet Pod
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Viletastic
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Posted - 2008.12.02 17:29:00 -
[287]
Could this tactic be used in FW too?
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Annaphera
Minmatar
Super Green Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.02 17:38:00 -
[288]
Ah, I do so love the whines of gankbears...
First, I must say - I think the pirates are to be congratulated in a way, for not simply taking CCP's word as to what the Orca's role is and figuring out a way to make it work for them. That said, I think the Orca needs to be left out of further discussion, because it wasn't anything more than a new shortcut for an existing tactic.
Second, I agree that certain mechanics in the game make things a bit too easy for suicide gankers, and the ability to get insurance money for a ship that Concord blasts is one of them. It becomes cost of doing business, and changes 'risk vs. reward' into 'payout vs reward' if done right. If the potential loot is likely to be greater than the cost of the T1 smartbombs and other junk mods in the ships, plus the cost of insurance, then the op is worth it. The risk is really nil, especially if they have no problem with sec status loss, or they're already at -10; it all comes down to a simple cash transaction with no real risk. You may not get the payoff you want, but you know the exact costs and possible outcomes. Hence, the label of 'gank-bear'. Removing insurance payouts for Concord-kills won't end suicide ganking, but it will hit the payout side of the equation, making the sacrifice of multiple destroyers or cruisers cost more than the loot one or two hulks will likely drop.
Third, since high-sec is supposed to be safe and patrolled to some degree, I think there should be some extra mechanism to aid miners in avoiding this sort of thing. Not a lot, though. My favorite is the idea that gates should broadcast a message when someone that raises the ire of the faction guards enters the system. It should be easy to implement, since they already flash a message to anyone near the gate when someone with low standing enters - why not make them flash an advisory to everyone in-system that someone with very low sec status has come calling?
Personally, I'm against anything that would kill suicide ganking all together - there should be some risk, after all. Neither of the above would stop high-profit ganking, nor would it prevent someone who's out for blood from taking their pound of flesh. They would, however, make suicide gankers think a bit in chosing targets, and make some sense in light of high-sec's supposedly 'protected' status.
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Agor Dirdonen
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Posted - 2008.12.02 17:40:00 -
[289]
Edited by: Agor Dirdonen on 02/12/2008 17:41:31
Restricting insurance payout to pilots with a sec rating of 0 or higher or not allowing outlaws into highsec for stuff like this won't solve a thing.
The only thing it would do is getting rid of outlaws as nobody will let his sec rating drop so low.
Most (not all) outlaws one time or another will work up their sec rating to above -2 so they can enter all systems again. Instead of going all the way to -10 and back up, they'll hover around 0 or -2 and even bring it up above 0 to have some safe space.
Now, the same thing will still happen. These attacks won't disappear, they still get insurance payout except, you cannot attack them should someone catch them in their pods near the orca getting ready to board a ship.
If you find that Orca and the pods show up, decloak and either
a) shoot the pods
b) scramble the ships till faction navy takes over
You know the Orca alt, can't be hard to follow him around so you can set up countertraps like a charm.
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s33ker
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.02 17:51:00 -
[290]
This is not an exploit. This is winning eve.
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Ben Stark
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Posted - 2008.12.02 17:55:00 -
[291]
Ok if they guys were using Frigs with smartbombs how in the world did they take out 4-5 Hulks before Concord could get them. Battleship SBs only have a range of 5k and Smalls only have 3k range. to have that many Hulks clusted that close togeather isnt a very effencent mining group. Even the damage from a BS smartbomb is only 250 every 10 seconds and Concord is there with in 10 seconds of any high sec system. So something here isnt right. I dont see a way that a frig well lets see if a Dest can fit 8 smart bombs that 50 damage each every 10 seconds. so 400 damage every 10 seconds im sorry but a hulk can tank better than that. I have to say I dont think something is right in this post. Either something else is being used other than Frigs or this didnt happen
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Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
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Posted - 2008.12.02 18:03:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Goyda
To the OP, he had the BEST advantage, he found their safespot, and they were all flashy, he should have killed 'em, remember flash pods don't spawn concord in their favor. When it comes to conflict stop thinking like a miner and think like a PvPer.
There is NO need to FIX anything. It's not broken. Sheesh.
Once again, the PvP banner is being raised without any thought as to what is practical. There is no way a ship can warp to that spot, lock up the pods before they warp out. So the player can come in and smartbomb the pods. Oh wait no he can't, because he will get concordokkened for splash damage to the orca.
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oilio
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.12.02 18:08:00 -
[293]
Originally by: Ben Stark
Ok if they guys were using Frigs with smartbombs how in the world did they take out 4-5 Hulks before Concord could get them. Battleship SBs only have a range of 5k and Smalls only have 3k range. to have that many Hulks clusted that close togeather isnt a very effencent mining group. Even the damage from a BS smartbomb is only 250 every 10 seconds and Concord is there with in 10 seconds of any high sec system. So something here isnt right. I dont see a way that a frig well lets see if a Dest can fit 8 smart bombs that 50 damage each every 10 seconds. so 400 damage every 10 seconds im sorry but a hulk can tank better than that. I have to say I dont think something is right in this post. Either something else is being used other than Frigs or this didnt happen
The OP never mentioned frigates at all. Where do you get the information that frigates were used?
The OP only stated that they were "Tech 1 ships".
You stink of failure, trolling, and an inability to read. |
ChinaWillGrowLarger
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Posted - 2008.12.02 18:11:00 -
[294]
Not an exploit
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Karentaki
Gallente
Fighting While Intoxicated
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.12.02 18:22:00 -
[295]
Nope, this isn't an exploit - it's just people using their brains. The fact that you can't use yours and instead come to the forums to get CCP to change the game so you don't have to think just shows that you are the one who needs to change. 'Adapt or die' comes to mind  literally.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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Sun Zoo
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Posted - 2008.12.02 18:35:00 -
[296]
Originally by: Drealir
You cannot board current selected vessel because your standing currently is -10. 
Best suggestion yet.
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Jack Gilligan
Dragon's Rage
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.02 18:39:00 -
[297]
Originally by: oilio
Originally by: Ben Stark
Ok if they guys were using Frigs with smartbombs how in the world did they take out 4-5 Hulks before Concord could get them. Battleship SBs only have a range of 5k and Smalls only have 3k range. to have that many Hulks clusted that close togeather isnt a very effencent mining group. Even the damage from a BS smartbomb is only 250 every 10 seconds and Concord is there with in 10 seconds of any high sec system. So something here isnt right. I dont see a way that a frig well lets see if a Dest can fit 8 smart bombs that 50 damage each every 10 seconds. so 400 damage every 10 seconds im sorry but a hulk can tank better than that. I have to say I dont think something is right in this post. Either something else is being used other than Frigs or this didnt happen
The OP never mentioned frigates at all. Where do you get the information that frigates were used?
The OP only stated that they were "Tech 1 ships".
You stink of failure, trolling, and an inability to read.
My guess would be T1 fitted caracals with EM missiles and cheap T1 BCS's, and all T1 target painters in the mids, since EM resist would be weakest on an untanked (or poorly tanked) exhumer.
---
My opinions are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my corp or alliance. |
Normin Bates
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Posted - 2008.12.02 18:57:00 -
[298]
I didn't read all 10 pages so I run the risk of saying what others have said. Oh well.
1. This isn't an exploit. It's clever.
2. Don't whine because other players are outsmarting you.(Damn scrubs!)
3. High sec space isn't supposed to be totally safe. (That would be boring)
4. Learn, adapt & change how you operate to avoid this.
5. Pay attention to local FFS!
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Velvet Spice
Spice World
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Posted - 2008.12.02 19:06:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Thoren Gregson
IÆll agree that itÆs clever. That doesnÆt make it any less of an exploit/abuse.
The whole point is that the security status system is being circumvented and that the insurance system is being abused. Period.
If we canÆt agree that those two game mechanics are not being abused/exploited/circumvented then we have an issue. ThatÆs really the only question here. All the rest of the comments are irrelevant. [...]
ItÆs a bit comical how many people chime in with ideas on how to counter this. ItÆs even more hilarious for others to assume what we did or didnÆt do, how we fit our ships or even why we where stupid for not predicting the future. [...]
ItÆs also amusing to see how many people didnÆt read the entire original post or skimmed it. I stated that itÆs not really the orca that makes this happen, it just makes it easier.
I never said there are not counters to these tactics. Infact, rather then whine last week we took the time to track them with the very intent to ôdo something about it.ö I never said we DIDNÆT do something about it, thatÆs just not a relevant part of the story and frankly the post was too long anyway, most people didnÆt read the entire thing.. thatÆs clear from some of the responses.
Yes in hind site there are things we could have done differently to minimize this risk and some of them we have already been doing. But IÆm telling you now, when/if this becomes a wide use practice itÆs going to be a big problem. IÆm stating it now so it can be fixed now.. not 4 months later when 80% of the low sec population has moved into highsec and has effectively shutdown the industrial sector of Eve.
Take a look at all of the responses.. a large number of people are already congratulating and planning on how they can get in on the action too. What do you think is going to happen when à
You know what.. forget it. ItÆs like talking to a wall.
Hopefully with this post this tactic has been brought out into the open and we can have some sort of word from CCP about it being a valid tactic or announcing that something will be fixed / changed.
well said, and props for the effort you went through to shed some light on this issue
I eat carebears for breakfast |
Mistress Frome
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.12.02 19:11:00 -
[300]
Originally by: Icarus Flame
I do think that this is a bit sploity, though. People shouldn't be able to repeatedly gank miners in highsec. While it's not evasion of Concord per se, it is in a way, because the reason, presumably, that Concord pwns people in the first place is prevention.
Note that the first gank was well within the rules of the game. Like I said, kudos. But use of the Orca to evade station guns and faction navies long enough to gank again is uncalled for.
What if he flew in a bunch of gankships and dropped them off at different safes prior to ganking. That still an exploit? Still ganking repeatedly (after gcc ends), still dodging faction police. Still the same end result.
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