Originally by: Thoren Gregson

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Originally by: Rob Eagle

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Originally by: Thoren Gregson

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2

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Originally by: Zeba

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Intersting exploit and noted as the ops text will surely be zapped by a mod.

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Originally by: deadmaus

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Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything

Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.

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Originally by: Zeba

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Intersting exploit and noted as the ops text will surely be zapped by a mod.

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.

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Originally by: Mr Deviant

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hmm interesting. Very interesting. Now, where is that new orca I bought?

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Originally by: ArmyOfMe

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Originally by: Zeba

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Intersting exploit and noted as the ops text will surely be zapped by a mod.

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not a exploit.
infact this have been done for years, just not with orcas

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Originally by: Synthetic Anon

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Originally by: Mr Deviant

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hmm interesting. Very interesting. Now, where is that new orca I bought?

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Step 2 means you have to have friends though. =(

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Originally by: Thoren Gregson

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These -10 guys are flying into empire space in PODS.

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Originally by: Artemis Rose

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It doesn't sound like an exploit, just a suicide gank op that has to be more frantic because you facing NPC police (for being an outlaw) and CONCORD for actually firing on people.

1. Outlaws CAN be in high sec, they just get shot by all players and they will trigger NPC faction police spawns (that web,neut and do some pretty big DPS). Its not an exploit for an outlaw player to be in high sec, to fly around in high sec, to aggress other players in high sec.

2. The result would have been the same if they were non flashy. In fact, it'd be much easier to organize simply because you would not have to be evading NPC faction police anytime an outlaw was in a ship.

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Originally by: Zeba

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with no meaningful mechanics to stop it.

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Originally by: Zeba

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Before the Orca it was a total hassle to run an op like the op described but now it will simply be lulz park an orca just off the grid to your targets and pew pew all day long with no meaningful mechanics to stop it.

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Originally by: Jmanis Catharg

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2. The ORCA pilot isn't an outlaw.

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Originally by: Dyaven

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Originally by: Zeba

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with no meaningful mechanics to stop it.

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Kill the orca?

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Originally by: Haakelen

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Originally by: Zeba

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Before the Orca it was a total hassle to run an op like the op described but now it will simply be lulz park an orca just off the grid to your targets and pew pew all day long with no meaningful mechanics to stop it.

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Shoot them?

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Originally by: Vaal Erit

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Can you do the same thing the OP is talking about with ships in station instead of in a Orca?

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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NerfBat is now known as the WaveMachine.

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Originally by: Vak'ran

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Originally by: Vaal Erit

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Can you do the same thing the OP is talking about with ships in station instead of in a Orca?

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They go pop, sentry guns not liking.

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Quote:

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Yes and how is a mining op in high sec supposed to shoot at the incoming suicide gank from off the grid? Clairvoyance? "Hey faeifhu12388 my spidey senses are tingling! What you mean flower4455? I have a feeling we are about to get ganked so quick to the station for our combat ships stat!"Razz Don't get me wrong as I adore this new tactic I'm just saying you better get your jollies in now before CCP wakes up and applies the nerfbat is all.

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Originally by: Brevada

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How about make anybody that lets outlaws use their bays get concorded for aiding pirates? problem solved

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Originally by: Vaal Erit

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As for "omg they come out of nowhere I can't sees them before". How about you learn2overview, ****ing noob. They appear in local in bright colors.

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Originally by: Brevada

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How about make anybody that lets outlaws use their bays get concorded for aiding pirates? problem solved

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Originally by: Vaal Erit

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Originally by: Vak'ran

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Originally by: Vaal Erit

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Can you do the same thing the OP is talking about with ships in station instead of in a Orca?

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They go pop, sentry guns not liking.

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With insta undocks I think you can warp off, rep your armor, pop some cap boosters and move on to ganking position.

I'm a bit confused to why people haven't done this before with alts ejecting from a ship. Orca can carry a few BC, but it can't carry a BS so I don't think the Orca is the problem here. Suicide ganking was nerfed SEVERELY so you need more people to do it and it looks like that is what has happened. Actually what is the problem here again?

As for "omg they come out of nowhere I can't sees them before". How about you learn2overview, ****ing noob. They appear in local in bright colors.

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Originally by: Dantes Revenge

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The big question here is: How can the Orca get combat ships into the ship maint bay while the Rorqual can't? Isn't the Orca supposed to be 'little bro' to the Rorqual? The Rrorqual gives and error that only industrial ships can dock in the maint bay. CCP's oversight maybe?

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Originally by: Dantes Revenge

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Also, I have to admit that what is the point of a sec status restriction in certain sec systems if a pod can still enter? You get a warning that you're entering lowsec when you try to jump through a gate, the same system should be in place to prevent those with -5 or lower entering highsec. Sorry if this sounds too restrictive to those with a low sec rating but you earned that rating for illegal actions and it should be enforced, pod as well.

If you were in the outback and preyed on innocent passers-by, you would be branded an outlaw. since the police would probably be unable to catch you there, you would be free to roam. However, if you entered a town either in a car or on foot, you would be arrested and put in jail. Therefore your action creates a virtual boundary into the civilised world that you can't cross. Since Concord don't pod, it should be a physical boundary.

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Originally by: Minsc

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It seems to me that as soon as the -10 pilot boards a ship the faction police should be warping in to blow the ship up and not when they have had time to enter the belt and suicide someone. Also I agree that any pilot who lets an outlaw access their ship maintenance bay in high-sec should get flagged as an accomplice in the act. It's like saying that the getaway driver in a bank robbery isn't guilty if the robbers never make it out of the bank.

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Originally by: Zeba

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Originally by: Minsc

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It seems to me that as soon as the -10 pilot boards a ship the faction police should be warping in to blow the ship up and not when they have had time to enter the belt and suicide someone. Also I agree that any pilot who lets an outlaw access their ship maintenance bay in high-sec should get flagged as an accomplice in the act. It's like saying that the getaway driver in a bank robbery isn't guilty if the robbers never make it out of the bank.

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Its not really the faction police who are the problem its the sentry guns. The orca trick takes sentrys out of the equation. And yeah the way CCP will probably fix it if they even feel it needs to be quickly fixed is flagging the orca pilot for letting a flashy red use the maint bay.

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Originally by: Johnny Gurkha

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/tips hat to the pirates involved

now go **** those macro mackinaws before the nerf

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Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn

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Edited by: Laechyd Eldgorn on 01/12/2008 22:40:53
This is what you get for having any hi sec at all. tbh.

Even though mining in perfecly secure space is superduper unrealistic empire ganks like that are even more immersion breaking poo-poo.

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Originally by: Abrazzar

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A fix for this would be to check for CONCORD agression every session change. So you board a ship in space causing a session change and CONCORD spawn on your criminal ass to pop your ship.

I am quite sure CCP didn't intend this use for the Orca.

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Originally by: Thoren Gregson

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Edited by: Thoren Gregson on 01/12/2008 20:41:19
we log in our pods and the other guys in our corp havenÆt logged in since.

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Originally by: Zeba

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I think the argument here is that it makes it too easy for -10 who should be pwnd as soon as they enter empire and not that suicide ganking is 'wrong' or too easy or hard.

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Originally by: Haakelen

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The risk is the miners potentially being competent and bringing security for their mining ops. If they choose to be prey, they should expect predators.

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Originally by: Daplat Mode

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Ok, first off lol...
Second, as its been stated, this is not an exploit by any means.
Third, from a pirates perspective, this can be avoided, you just might actually have
to make a bit of effort.

Things that may help you and your mates.
1. Pay attention
Now, you may be saying "but this is highsec and concord should be there to defend those who cannot defend themselves right?" WRONG it takes 3 gank fit t1 destroyers to take down a poorly fitted hulk.
try setting your a thing called "standings" so you can see if your attackers are in local.

2. PAY ATTENTION
I know managing jetcans and activating modules every 7 minutes or so can be a rather
menacing task for even the most elite carebears, but every once in a while, take a minute so notice that there are other things in space than rocks and npc's like that mysterious safespotted orca you speak of. Click your directional scanner everyonce in a while.

3. Learn to how to fit defenses to your ship.
I dont know how many 100m isk mining barges i've popped that had a civilian shield booster attached to it... your literally begging to die easily. Hitpoints can be a greater asset than that 'roid scanner.

4. Stop whining.
Because ultimately, nobody cares.

5. Duh
If you cant overcome the issues that your having, I recommend either moving to a different area, giving all your stuff to pirates (because we're just gonna take it from you anyway) or possibly trying hellokitty online, I hear its really sweet.

Good luck!

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Originally by: Thoren Gregson

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It took me a few days in a covert ops following, and scanning them down to see how they where this.. but see it I did. (and I actually had a lot of fun while doing so)

These -10 guys are flying into empire space in PODS. Making safespots in the systems they pray upon. Meeting up with Orcas in these safe spots flown by legit neutral pilots. (alts maybe) and jumping in there suicide T1 gank ships of choice out of the Orca hanger and then flying directly to the belts where they kill any ship they wish so long as it can be killed before Concord kills them. They then fly pods back to the orca in the same system, grab another set of ships and do it again. As of this weekend they now have atleast 2 orcas, one stays in the safe spot while the other goes back and forth between the safe spot and the station. IÆm guessing to pick up more ships and drop them into orca #1

Combined with fully insured tech one ships and no lost of sec status (they are already -10) there is NOTHING for them to lose and everything to gain.

Using this method essentially turns empire space into gank town in the belts and mission pockets so long as the victim can be killed fast enough. (they never fly near the gates or stations)

IÆm not crying foul because we have lost ~950 million in assets, I like that eve is a dangerous place to play. My issue is that:

1 The insurance system is in serous need of overhaul when pirates and suicide gankers can use it to there advantage while at the same time anyone flying in a tech 2 ship can not use it at all.

2 One of the main security mechanics of the game (sec status) is being circumvented/exploited by flying into empire systems in pods and then jumping into a ships brought in by another player. So long as they donÆt go near a gate or station until they jump back out in a pod.


Some may quickly say ônerf Orca ship baysö but that will not stop it. Orcas only make it faster and easier to do. Before the orca it could have been done by neutral players freighting tons of ships into an empire station, making a safe spot and then moving ships from station to safespot by ejecting out of ships in the safe spot over and over.

How to stop this? Step one is to fix insurance as has been suggested in the past, no insurance pay out to concord ship losses. But that wonÆt really stop this alone. A small fleet of tech 1 ships is still a better then even trade off for one (let alone 4) hulks mining together. Figure out a way to allow tech 2 ships to be insured to compensate for loss like tech one ships.

But what is going to stop -10 sec pilots from moving around in empire and then jumping into a ship in a safespot and killing players in empire belts?

Would a consistent Concord presence in all empire belts stop this? I donÆt know, but what I do know is.. this problem is going to become a lot worse as more and more players adopt this practice and I know that, atleast for me and my corp we will have to park all of our mining ships until something changes. None of us can afford 200million losses a night in the blink of an eye.

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Originally by: Mordekai Bloodwake

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Its this kind of game play that drives new players away and another reason why Eve doesnt have a larger sub base which in turn wont allow Eve to progress quicker, instead it takes years :(

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Originally by: Dyaven

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I'm sorry, but I just have to sum this up in one word:
Genius.

I am so going to convince my corp mates to try this!

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Originally by: Mordekai Bloodwake

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Its this kind of game play that drives new players away and another reason why Eve doesnt have a larger sub base which in turn wont allow Eve to progress quicker, instead it takes years :(

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Originally by: Chi Quan

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i have the very weird immage of some person in the woods standing next to the rabbit he just shot with his cal .50, madly dancing around the dead body like an indian from a 60ies western, calling the corpse names and kicking it in the guts. srsly ppl wtf? don't you have any dignity?

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Originally by: Neth'Rae

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Well, sure but keep in mind the little rabbits are in underground bunkers filled with tanks, the rabbits are also made out of gold..
That metaphore is more accurate :)

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Originally by: Mr M

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Oh how brave of these guys, they have found a way to suicide gank that isn't an exploit yet. This is way we can't have nice things like the orca, some people just can't handle it without missusing them.

If you don't feel like applauding the gankers, go ahead and file a petition, that way CCP have to react and tell if it's ok or not.

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Originally by: Thudin

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Originally by: Mr M

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that isn't an exploit yet

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Not an exploit at all. The pirates are still taking a chance by doing this in high sec.

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Originally by: Mr M

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But I'm quite sure CCP will do something about it in the next couple of days,

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Originally by: Mr M

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Edited by: Mr M on 02/12/2008 00:53:35

Originally by: Thudin

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Originally by: Mr M

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that isn't an exploit yet

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Not an exploit at all. The pirates are still taking a chance by doing this in high sec.

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It's not an exploit yet. But I'm quite sure CCP will do something about it in the next couple of days

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Originally by: Thudin

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Not an exploit at all. The pirates are still taking a chance by doing this in high sec.

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Originally by: Woodwraith

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and tbh, i think its coming.

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Originally by: Woodwraith

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Ive probably podded more people than you've convoed and everytime I see one of these "DEATH TO TEH MINERS!!!" threads I just shake my head, maybe I should start taking down names.

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Originally by: Lady Karma

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I think I've convoed more than 90 ppl tough guy. Take my name down please.

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Originally by: ArmyOfMe

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Originally by: Zeba

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Intersting exploit and noted as the ops text will surely be zapped by a mod.

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not a exploit.
infact this have been done for years, just not with orcas

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Originally by: soldieroffortune 258

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"Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer"

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Originally by: Terranid Meester

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How ironic - one of the ultimate carebear ships turned against those who would love it most. The worm has turned

Now if those pirates could make good use of this to gank the isk farming navy ravens and golems in Sivala I would be most grateful :D

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Originally by: soldieroffortune 258

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"Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer"

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Originally by: tomatoe

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just get an alt to suicide shoot at your'e hulk,, concord will pop them and then hang around the belt while u mine away,,,,,

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Originally by: Arkeladin

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Thinking about it, there's a REAL EASY fix to this issue.

All it would require is some modification to the rules CONCORD uses.

To wit:

Eliminate the profit motive, by making it a CONCORDable offense to pick up cans that you do not own. Not just a local criminal flag, but a GCF with CONCORD appearing and popping the offender. Of course, have this in highsec only.

This would also eliminate the can-flipper fromt he game as well, as what's the point of trying to flip a can if you get CONCORDED for doing so, in highsec?

That would eliminate a lot of this kind of thing, as there would be NO profit in it whatsoever. Combine this with the "no insurance for being CONCORDED" idea, and you'd eliminate just about all highsec piracy.

Which may or may not be a Good Thing...

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Originally by: KISOGOKU

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Edited by: KISOGOKU on 02/12/2008 02:48:57
You busted their safes ?

1-Fit a BS with smartbombs , insure
2-Warp to their safe
3-Activate smartbombs
4-profit ?

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Originally by: spike XIII

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Originally by: tomatoe

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just get an alt to suicide shoot at your'e hulk,, concord will pop them and then hang around the belt while u mine away,,,,,

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what he said. i do this a lot when mining in 0.5

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Originally by: rValdez5987

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I dont like your sig. It fills me with rage.

I want it removed. Reported.

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Originally by: Qwert0

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I admit, it's a clever tactic, but to all the 'hardcore' pirates saying to bring protection: how, EXACTLY, can you protect ships made of wet cardboard against WTZ disco ships that have nearly no consequences for use?

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Originally by: rValdez5987

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I dont like your sig. It fills me with rage.

I want it removed. Reported.

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Originally by: Grohalmatar

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Sounds like a good pirate tactic to me.

There are plenty of ways you could have paid them back but you chose not too.

When players demand that CCP step in to correct game play that could be corrected by players, the game gets worse. When players use tactics to correct game play that they don't like, the game gets better.

Make the game better and fight back. Couple of pod kills and they will move on to another corp mining op.

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Originally by: Mr M

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It's not an exploit yet. But I'm quite sure CCP will do something about it in the next couple of days, and then a lot of people while whine about how evil CCP is at the forum. Oh how unexpected.

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Originally by: Noriko Rei

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This is precisely the problem. The griefers will go to wherever there is no risk; if there is to be risk borne by everyone, carebears and "pirates" alike, then there must be a real, constant, immutable consequence for harassing pilots in supposedly secure space, just as there is a real, constant, and immutable consequence for being stupid as a carebear.

As there will always be corporations who simply do not have the resources to withstand this sort of thing, you are not proposing an equitable solution by chanting the pirates' own mantra of "fight back." You know as well as the rest of us how laughable that is in practice, as such things are far easier said than done.

Placing the entire burden of "enforcing" balance upon typically unarmed industrialists who have neither the combat skills nor resources to do so is tantamount to saying you're all in favor of imbalance, as long as that imbalance favors your playstyle of griefing the helpless.

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Originally by: Brevada

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How about make anybody that lets outlaws use their bays get concorded for aiding pirates? problem solved

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Originally by: Nexus Kinnon

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I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>

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Originally by: Thoren Gregson

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Would a consistent Concord presence in all empire belts stop this? I donÆt know, but what I do know is.. this problem is going to become a lot worse as more and more players adopt this practice and I know that, atleast for me and my corp we will have to park all of our mining ships until something changes. None of us can afford 200million losses a night in the blink of an eye.

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Originally by: Dasfry

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Why not keep your local window open while mining?
a bunch of -10 RED BLINKING guys show up...
and well u know something is up! everyone DOCK

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Originally by: Clarisaa

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Maybe stating the obvious but were you aligned when mining or just pointing in a random direction? Being aligned reduces warp out to seconds even when stationnary,...

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Originally by: techzer0

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Edited by: techzer0 on 02/12/2008 07:04:04
Hey... so they used an Orca to get their ships into highsec? I just made the jump through the gate from 0.4 to 0.6 and warped to the belt

Take the fight to the pirates in lowsec... on average the highsec system next to the one I pirate in has 40-70 people. our max online most of the time is about 25. If it is such a HUGE issue, go on down into lowsec (since all you roid huggers should be united on this idea of hating -10s) and FIGHT BACK

Carebears outnumber pirates, just another example of the majority fearing a minority, but not being willing to do anything about it without a free handout

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Originally by: Acama Asante

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so clearly this thread is my punishment but what was my crime I wonder

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Originally by: 21 Salvager

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Originally by: Clarisaa

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Maybe stating the obvious but were you aligned when mining or just pointing in a random direction? Being aligned reduces warp out to seconds even when stationnary,...

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No, it doesn't. When stationary after jumping through a gate or cynoing into a system, you are aligned in all directions and only need to get to speed, which is why you can insta-warp freighters with a webifier.

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Originally by: Commander Aeris

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I still don't get why pirates blow up their own income I mean, I understand can flipping. Hate it, but it makes the pirates money. Probably more then to splat 10 odd ships to kill a hulk?

Besides, the pirates should all love the macro miners, otherwise they wouldnt have ships to splat.

No macro/carebear miners = no minerals for your ships.


Guess it shows that those pirates that yell that theres too many miners in highsec wouldnt mind giving me some money to show you really don't care about ship prices rising?

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Originally by: Nexus Kinnon

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I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>

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Originally by: Commander Aeris

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I still don't get why pirates blow up their own income I mean, I understand can flipping. Hate it, but it makes the pirates money. Probably more then to splat 10 odd ships to kill a hulk?

Besides, the pirates should all love the macro miners, otherwise they wouldnt have ships to splat.

No macro/carebear miners = no minerals for your ships.


Guess it shows that those pirates that yell that theres too many miners in highsec wouldnt mind giving me some money to show you really don't care about ship prices rising?

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Originally by: Tombozo

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Perhaps this has already been mentioned somewhere in the previous six pages, but I just thought I'd point out that this can be done without Orcas. It'd take longer, but they could just as well use alts to fly ships into hisec individually, eject and board with the pirates. Orcas don't introduce anything new here, they just make it a bit easier.

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Originally by: Nexus Kinnon

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I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>

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Originally by: Roemy Schneider

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six pages and not one post suggesting wardec'ing the orca...? have privateers left such a hollow shell of the concept...

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Dasfry

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Why not keep your local window open while mining?
a bunch of -10 RED BLINKING guys show up...
and well u know something is up! everyone DOCK

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You know that the security status is not show in local?
It show the player standing to you or your corp, not the security status.

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Originally by: Valan

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Passiveley aligning decreases your gtfo dodge time. You don't have to turn around.

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Originally by: Valan

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I can see why you wouldn't use this drill in empire as standard but the reds in local were the indicator that FC should've given the command to passiveley align.

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Originally by: Valan

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How did they get your position so perfect? Just thought the noob corp shuttle was having a quick look? Because if you warped in from the station and they warped in from a safe I would put money on you being out of smart bomb range.

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Originally by: Tombozo

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Originally by: Valan

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Passiveley aligning decreases your gtfo dodge time. You don't have to turn around.

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Not true. The 'facing' that you see is purely client-side, and has nothing to do with the physics engine. All the game cares about is your velocity, and when you're sitting still your velocity is zero. This means, you're not actually aligned anywhere. Have you ever notice that if you move fly your ship a different direction than it's 'facing' from a stop, it will actually fly backwards a bit before it turns around? The directionality you see is purely graphical.

Originally by: Valan

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I can see why you wouldn't use this drill in empire as standard but the reds in local were the indicator that FC should've given the command to passiveley align.

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It's been said before, but sec status doesn't show up in local. If they happen to have attacked someone in the last 15 minutes they will show up as globally aggro'ed, but otherwise the only way to know that they're outlaws is to see them in space or show info on them. Do you show info on everyone you see in hisec local? That's not really a reasonable expectation.

Originally by: Valan

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How did they get your position so perfect? Just thought the noob corp shuttle was having a quick look? Because if you warped in from the station and they warped in from a safe I would put money on you being out of smart bomb range.

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They almost certainly used an alt with a covops for a warp-in.

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Originally by: KISOGOKU

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Edited by: KISOGOKU on 02/12/2008 02:48:57
You busted their safes ?

1-Fit a BS with smartbombs , insure
2-Warp to their safe
3-Activate smartbombs
4-profit ?

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Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo

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Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 02/12/2008 11:16:33
While I think this is liquid inspiration on the part of the pirates, the old Caldari maxim comes to mind - "only the paranoid survive"

There isn't an effective solution I can see to this, other than getting CONCORD to start podding :P

Edit: Also to prevent outlaws from having clones in high sec, should mention

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Originally by: Avon

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I still don't see what part of this is meant to be an exploit.

For ages pirates have had neutral alts bring them ships at safespots in high-sec.
The only difference here is using an Orca to move the ships.

It is basically the same as suicide ganking has been for ages.

Faction Navy were buffed when factional warfare hit, so it is already harder for these pirates anyway.


The problem is that the OP expects to be safe, and wants bad guys to be nicer.



Personally I think that you should be able to cruise around in Empire space no matter your sec status.
It should be up to players to "punish" criminals, not the factional navy (who should punish those with a low factional status, not a low security status).
Of course, Concord should still respond to criminal acts.

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Originally by: Thoren Gregson

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*****************************************
It took me a few days in a covert ops following, and scanning them down to see how they where this.. but see it I did. (and I actually had a lot of fun while doing so)

These -10 guys are flying into empire space in PODS. Making safespots in the systems they pray upon. Meeting up with Orcas in these safe spots flown by legit neutral pilots. (alts maybe) and jumping in there suicide T1 gank ships of choice out of the Orca hanger and then flying directly to the belts where they kill any ship they wish so long as it can be killed before Concord kills them. They then fly pods back to the orca in the same system, grab another set of ships and do it again. As of this weekend they now have atleast 2 orcas, one stays in the safe spot while the other goes back and forth between the safe spot and the station. IÆm guessing to pick up more ships and drop them into orca #1

Combined with fully insured tech one ships and no lost of sec status (they are already -10) there is NOTHING for them to lose and everything to gain.

Using this method essentially turns empire space into gank town in the belts and mission pockets so long as the victim can be killed fast enough. (they never fly near the gates or stations)

IÆm not crying foul because we have lost ~950 million in assets, I like that eve is a dangerous place to play. My issue is that:

1 The insurance system is in serous need of overhaul when pirates and suicide gankers can use it to there advantage while at the same time anyone flying in a tech 2 ship can not use it at all.

2 One of the main security mechanics of the game (sec status) is being circumvented/exploited by flying into empire systems in pods and then jumping into a ships brought in by another player. So long as they donÆt go near a gate or station until they jump back out in a pod.


Some may quickly say ônerf Orca ship baysö but that will not stop it. Orcas only make it faster and easier to do. Before the orca it could have been done by neutral players freighting tons of ships into an empire station, making a safe spot and then moving ships from station to safespot by ejecting out of ships in the safe spot over and over.

How to stop this? Step one is to fix insurance as has been suggested in the past, no insurance pay out to concord ship losses. But that wonÆt really stop this alone. A small fleet of tech 1 ships is still a better then even trade off for one (let alone 4) hulks mining together. Figure out a way to allow tech 2 ships to be insured to compensate for loss like tech one ships.

But what is going to stop -10 sec pilots from moving around in empire and then jumping into a ship in a safespot and killing players in empire belts?

Would a consistent Concord presence in all empire belts stop this? I donÆt know, but what I do know is.. this problem is going to become a lot worse as more and more players adopt this practice and I know that, atleast for me and my corp we will have to park all of our mining ships until something changes. None of us can afford 200million losses a night in the blink of an eye.

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Originally by: Gombar

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What about the old logic high risk - high reward,

but sorry forgot, this only applies if pirates are the gaining party.

Anything that produces high loss without any risk for the gankers should simply be regarded an exploit

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Originally by: Shintai

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Would this be another non tanked, no skills hulk post? And fitted for cargo to lower its tank ability even more?

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Originally by: Nexus Kinnon

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I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>

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Originally by: hedfunk

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Refreshing to see alot of people congratulating the pirates. Usually it's just 'omfg nerf'

-10 in high sec, who would of thought it :P

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Originally by: Karille

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They lose their ships and their targets could be tanked. Just because they calculated the risk before they started doesn't mean there isn't any.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Karille

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They lose their ships and their targets could be tanked. Just because they calculated the risk before they started doesn't mean there isn't any.

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No, it is not risk. Risk involve a chance of success or failure, what they are doing is a pure clerk calculation: "I use x isk to get n killmails, so I pay x/n isk for each killmail".

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Originally by: Leon Angeal

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This has those lovely bunch of well-to-do gentlemen known as the goons written all over it...

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Originally by: Valan

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How did they get your position so perfect? Just thought the noob corp shuttle was having a quick look? Because if you warped in from the station and they warped in from a safe I would put money on you being out of smart bomb range.

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Originally by: ArmyOfMe

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Originally by: Zeba

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Intersting exploit and noted as the ops text will surely be zapped by a mod.

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not a exploit.
infact this have been done for years, just not with orcas

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Originally by: Superfailsauce

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The pirate runs the risk of running into a semi well fit barge and not popping it.

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Originally by: Decard Sune on 23/03/2008 12:12:37

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Carebear is a derogatory term used by those who feel that every player should be nothing mroe than a target for their pleasure. These individuals usually ha

Originally by: Jack Gilligan

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the answer to this is to flag the Orca pilot to CONCORD for "aiding and abetting", ie if a flashy red goes to and uses the services of another ship that ship should get a GCF then suffer a CONCORD'ing.

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Originally by: Mr M

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Edited by: Mr M on 02/12/2008 00:53:35

Originally by: Thudin

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Originally by: Mr M

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that isn't an exploit yet

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Not an exploit at all. The pirates are still taking a chance by doing this in high sec.

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It's not an exploit yet. But I'm quite sure CCP will do something about it in the next couple of days, and then a lot of people while whine about how evil CCP is at the forum. Oh how unexpected.

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Originally by: Tammaria Snegallja

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Originally by: Jack Gilligan

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the answer to this is to flag the Orca pilot to CONCORD for "aiding and abetting", ie if a flashy red goes to and uses the services of another ship that ship should get a GCF then suffer a CONCORD'ing.

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Easy fix: Go to safespot, eject the ships, dock & go offline. Login -10 chars, fly to safespot, enter ships. Nothing Concord can do against the Orca pilot.

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Originally by: techzer0

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Originally by: Commander Aeris

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I still don't get why pirates blow up their own income I mean, I understand can flipping. Hate it, but it makes the pirates money. Probably more then to splat 10 odd ships to kill a hulk?

Besides, the pirates should all love the macro miners, otherwise they wouldnt have ships to splat.

No macro/carebear miners = no minerals for your ships.


Guess it shows that those pirates that yell that theres too many miners in highsec wouldnt mind giving me some money to show you really don't care about ship prices rising?

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Most well organized pirate corps have their own logistic suppliers, who are profiting from us making the extra stuff they sell worth more. So we're not cutting our own throats, we're hurting the rest of the EVE economy that is not self reliant

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Originally by: Roemy Schneider

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six pages and not one post suggesting wardec'ing the orca...? have privateers left such a hollow shell of the concept...

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Originally by: Avon

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I still don't see what part of this is meant to be an exploit.

For ages pirates have had neutral alts bring them ships at safespots in high-sec.
The only difference here is using an Orca to move the ships.

It is basically the same as suicide ganking has been for ages.

Faction Navy were buffed when factional warfare hit, so it is already harder for these pirates anyway.


The problem is that the OP expects to be safe, and wants bad guys to be nicer.



Personally I think that you should be able to cruise around in Empire space no matter your sec status.
It should be up to players to "punish" criminals, not the factional navy (who should punish those with a low factional status, not a low security status).
Of course, Concord should still respond to criminal acts.

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Originally by: Dr Slaughter

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Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo

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Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 02/12/2008 11:16:33
While I think this is liquid inspiration on the part of the pirates, the old Caldari maxim comes to mind - "only the paranoid survive"

There isn't an effective solution I can see to this, other than getting CONCORD to start podding :P

Edit: Also to prevent outlaws from having clones in high sec, should mention

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Or void insurance on ship losses made by -10 pilots in high sec only.

i.e. if you've managed to get to -10, and can't really be penalized anymore by sec hits the only thing left is to void insurance and hit them in the pocket.

But.. frankly.. I quite like the current mechanic as people can still fight back if they bother to get as organized as the pirates (must suck for solo players though).

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Originally by: Dmian

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Edited by: Dmian on 02/12/2008 11:47:06

Originally by: Avon

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I still don't see what part of this is meant to be an exploit.

For ages pirates have had neutral alts bring them ships at safespots in high-sec.
The only difference here is using an Orca to move the ships.

It is basically the same as suicide ganking has been for ages.

Faction Navy were buffed when factional warfare hit, so it is already harder for these pirates anyway.


The problem is that the OP expects to be safe, and wants bad guys to be nicer.



Personally I think that you should be able to cruise around in Empire space no matter your sec status.
It should be up to players to "punish" criminals, not the factional navy (who should punish those with a low factional status, not a low security status).
Of course, Concord should still respond to criminal acts.

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I don't know if this is an exploit or not, but it's very different from what you say.
Previously, if you wanted to, say, make 3 waves of attacks, you have to get your alt to leave 3 ships parked at a safespot. Those ships where scannable, and hard to move.

With an Orca, you have practically a moving station that's friendly to pirates. It's effectively like opening the gates (as is your desire) or taking away sentry guns from stations: you can have many waves of suicide ganks, without any consequence.

I see some logic from people with low sec not being allowed in high sec systems, after all it's a reasonable matter of security. Or at lest don't let them board something better than a frigate, or face consequences. This is effectively like letting terrorist get past customs and then be able to buy guns inside a country. It should be something very difficult to achieve, not easy.

Also, I don't agree with vigilante policies. There needs to be some king of security force in high-sec. A free raoming space for anyone will be a non-secure space. Industry needs some kind of security to be possible. Sorry to say this, but a pure PvP game is not possible. Part of the interesting features of this game is the economy, industry and the market. Without it, it won't be Eve.

Really, this game is not all piracy, or all PvP or all industry, etc. Those seeing this from only their side are half blinded by their own game style. The space is a complex system, and it needs balance. Kill too many miners and your disposable suicide ganking ships get too expensive to be really disposable.

In the meantime, the OP needs to take precautions. Don't be out there with your elephants without a ranger looking for you. Empire might be a reserve, but poachers do exist, and might be near you. Be alert.

P.S: Clever pirate tactics...

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Originally by: Karille

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Add some risk to the pirate side. Everyone says suicide ganking losses aren't a risk because the aggressor ship loss is predetermined. I propose the idea that we should change things so sometimes Concord doesn't spawn. That way the aggressor won't know if they're going to lose their ship! They'll be taking a huge risk then.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: hedfunk

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Refreshing to see alot of people congratulating the pirates. Usually it's just 'omfg nerf'

-10 in high sec, who would of thought it :P

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I think it pretty stupid on the pirate part.

The are getting some easy killmail for a few weeks at most then the rules are changed because they are making too much waves. Probably it will be the "no insurance if killed by Concord" thing.

So they are trading a brief period of lulz for a future nerf. Not too bright.

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Originally by: Karille

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Karille

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They lose their ships and their targets could be tanked. Just because they calculated the risk before they started doesn't mean there isn't any.

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No, it is not risk. Risk involve a chance of success or failure, what they are doing is a pure clerk calculation: "I use x isk to get n killmails, so I pay x/n isk for each killmail".

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So you're saying that if I mine x hours to get n ore that would be a bad thing.

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Originally by: Turelle

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Congratulations to the pirates who did it. There are already enough complications to getting through high sec as an outlaw. They would've had to be bloody quick to get into the ships and warp to you since the Navy spawns even on pods (just doesn't shoot).

Allowing CONCORD to shoot pods is stupid. Players can do that to an outlaw anywhere (podded one in Jita to get a 50m bounty reawrd a while ago). Voiding insurance when losing a ship to CONCORD is pointless since the ISK vs. Reawrd is high if it's a 5m T1 ship to multiple 100m+ ISK T2 ships.

The great thing about EVE is that nowhere is safe and need teamwork to make it safer. You go to 0.0 and expect to be killed. You go to low sec and expect to be killed. High sec just has alot more risks to the aggressors.

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Originally by: Shirley Serious

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so what options do tech1 barge pilots have?

exhumers can fit a tank, but many do not.

But tech1 barges don't really have that option, do they?

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Originally by: Jmanis Catharg

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Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 01/12/2008 20:51:19
Go kill them?

Sorry, this doesn't sound like an exploit to me really.

They're -10 ffs. Why didn't you fit a couple guns on your covops and kill their pods at the orca???

(edit: or better yet, bookmark their Orca and fly back in a fit-out battleship and *really* wreck some havoc on the -10s

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Originally by: Thenoran

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Originally by: Karille

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Add some risk to the pirate side. Everyone says suicide ganking losses aren't a risk because the aggressor ship loss is predetermined. I propose the idea that we should change things so sometimes Concord doesn't spawn. That way the aggressor won't know if they're going to lose their ship! They'll be taking a huge risk then.

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So instead of always losing your ship, you lose it 50% of the time, how does this help?

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