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Silence Duegood
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Posted - 2009.02.13 13:48:00 -
[271]
Originally by: Tivookz Atribute respec is a great feature, please add it.
And to all you nay sayers. Let me introduce my middle finger to you. .|..
Attribute respec is a terrible feature, please don't add it.
And to all you yay sayers. Let me introduce to you...
An actual argument
Sil
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MILK Monk
Rytiri Lva R.U.R.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 14:06:00 -
[272]
well, I do not understand the panic around this. Trying to see devil in "nothing"... hmm... basicaly what this change means in a single point?
Lets assume you will use the "ideal" optimized plan per 6 months - you will save approximatelly 1-2 months of learning skills = you can do things a bit sooner than you can do it now
THATS ALL... it is bull**** that you can maximize your character in everything and has some uberleet char... you will still specialize in what you want to train for at least 2-3 years and then maybe you can train other skills... so what is SO bad about it? Only one thing will change, you will be able to skill up faster, nothing else, people will still be focused on specific areas, they will just go to training more skills to lvl5 and I think that it will only lead to more spcialized chars then we have now... my 2c :) __________________________________ I do it myyyy wayyyy... Milky Way. |
iudex
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.02.13 14:12:00 -
[273]
Originally by: Silence Duegood
And to all you yay sayers. Let me introduce to you...
An actual argument
Sil
Yes that's a nice summary of the problem. And people will do excatly that, because that's the only rational way to behave. I sometimes jump from my +5 clone to a clone without implants on a certain attribute group, and watch the diffrence: it can be up to 6 hours a day. That's a huge diffrence if you sum this up for a year. Also i compare my sp with some older players who are living in 0.0, and since i've been playing on my +5 implant clone most of the time, i sometimes have more sp than someone started a year earlier. This shows that attributes do matter. A lot. Therefore it will be a must to min-maxing in order to stay competitive, those who won't do it will fall behind in their skilltraining.
_________________________________________ Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.81 // Angel Cartel +7.60 // Minmatar Republic -8.68 // Gallente Federation -9.88
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 14:16:00 -
[274]
Originally by: MILK Monk well, I do not understand the panic around this. Trying to see devil in "nothing"... hmm... basicaly what this change means in a single point?
Lets assume you will use the "ideal" optimized plan per 6 months - you will save approximatelly 1-2 months of learning skills = you can do things a bit sooner than you can do it now
THATS ALL... it is bull**** that you can maximize your character in everything and has some uberleet char... you will still specialize in what you want to train for at least 2-3 years and then maybe you can train other skills... so what is SO bad about it? Only one thing will change, you will be able to skill up faster, nothing else, people will still be focused on specific areas, they will just go to training more skills to lvl5 and I think that it will only lead to more spcialized chars then we have now... my 2c :)
The problem is that more experienced characters will benefit more than newer ones.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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iudex
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.02.13 14:21:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
The problem is that more experienced characters will benefit more than newer ones.
This is also an important point. And as someone said way above in this thread, if CCP wants vets to train faster, they could put some +7 implants in lp stores. This would also stabilize the lp market, if done properly, but without the cost of messing up a game mechanics that was fine for 5 years, making races irrelevant and removing all the diversity in character creation.
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Llyod Toad
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:10:00 -
[276]
Bump, this is staying front page on general discussion. One time repec, anything else is dumbing down the game. That is all.
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N'irrti
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2009.02.15 16:10:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Llyod Toad Bump, this is staying front page on general discussion. One time repec, anything else is dumbing down the game. That is all.
/signed
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Skjorta
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Posted - 2009.02.15 17:54:00 -
[278]
No offense to the hundred people above me.
But this ranks up there as one the dumbest threads ever.
Lots of people complaining because other people might get like 100 more skillpoints an hour from training?
People complaining about diversity? Are you ****ing kidding? Everybody is training different skills and still has to specialize in things if they want to win. You do realize what specialized means right? and realize even now an industrial pilot can train combat skills? yes? you do realize this? Because you are all acting like its never been done before and will be new and wreck everything.
If they want to specialize in both combat and industry...or exploration...or mining...or research...or capital ship production..or trading or..etc etc..then they are still going to be sub par to people who chose one and stuck with it..and....that is how things are right now.
Are you really to the point where this is the biggest complaint you can come up with?
if so, gg ccp.
bring back the falcon threads, cuz at least that one i could see their point.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.15 19:09:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Skjorta Lots of people complaining because other people might get like 100 more skillpoints an hour from training?
No.
People are complaining that this will make attributes, bloodlines, and race completely redundant as game mechanics — they no longer serve no purpose and are completely interchangeable. People are also complaining that this will unduly benefit older characters, rather than the newbies who might have done some mistakes in their point distribution — the ones the respec functionality is supposed to help.
No offense to you, but you've misunderstood the nature of the complaint.
——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.15 19:17:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Skjorta ... emorage...
If they want to specialize in both combat and industry...or exploration...or mining...or research...or capital ship production..or trading or..etc etc..then they are still going to be sub par to people who chose one and stuck with it..and....that is how things are right now.
That is how things are right now, but they are about to change. The underlined part shows that you didn't understand the upcoming changes. Noone will be sub par anymore, no matter what he's traingin, as long as he respecs fot the training period. The miner will be training combat skills as fast as the combat pilot, afte rhe has respecced. There won't be "miners" or "combat-pilots" anymore - no justification for racial division or attributes at all anymore. This not "how things are right now".
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Skjorta
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Posted - 2009.02.15 21:52:00 -
[281]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Skjorta ... emorage...
If they want to specialize in both combat and industry...or exploration...or mining...or research...or capital ship production..or trading or..etc etc..then they are still going to be sub par to people who chose one and stuck with it..and....that is how things are right now.
That is how things are right now, but they are about to change. The underlined part shows that you didn't understand the upcoming changes. Noone will be sub par anymore, no matter what he's traingin, as long as he respecs fot the training period. The miner will be training combat skills as fast as the combat pilot, afte rhe has respecced. There won't be "miners" or "combat-pilots" anymore - no justification for racial division or attributes at all anymore. This not "how things are right now".
See, you're wrong tho.
Just because a miner can train combat skills...they don't get a super 20m bonus to combat skill overnight.
They'll still be miners with some combat skills that suck compared to somebody who is full spec'd combat.
You also may not realize that there are no classes in eve. You can be both a miner and a combat pilot. Being both means you sacrifice being great in one and accept being mediocre in both. It's actually one of the great things of the game, no class skills etc. You should read up on it!
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teoliit
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Posted - 2009.02.15 22:25:00 -
[282]
So... older players can consistently gain even more SP / hour than new players compared to what they do now.
Why is that such a big deal? New players can never catch up in terms of SP anyway and if 50m+ characters are training long skills they're not getting as much out of those SP that they're earning. If they can only train 6 skills in 6 months then I don't mind if they can train them slightly faster, it doesn't matter. You're not getting much for your SP anyway. The gulf between the old and the new doesn't increase in proportionally to the SP
New players won't train any slower because of this change, and they'll still be able to reach a point where their characters are useful despite older players training faster. If you take issue with new players being too far behind then you should focus your efforts on some larger restructuring of the skill system.
The only problem I have with the update is that people might feel the need to minmax their attributes at the expense of their enjoyment of the game, which is really bad. Removing base attribute customization would be the best way to go. Make training speed a function of wealth
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Johnnyan
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Posted - 2009.02.15 22:34:00 -
[283]
All the pvp vets obsessed with the coolness of this "feature" should at least have the decency to accept that this is against the entire history of the game. When this "6 months reborn" will be implemented the only real difference between the people of Eve will be their avatar, everything else will be nullified, for me, this is hard to accept, i really thought we were smarter than this. And CCP, if you really want people to be equal, why not take out the attributes entirely, the way i see your new "feature" will mostly help the old players learning everything at max speed.
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.16 01:03:00 -
[284]
I find attribute re-spec annoying *not* because it will give noobs and/or vets some extra SP here or there.
I dislike it because it makes attributes meaningless. It also kills immersion. Attributes are meant to be the defining talents of a person. A relatively fixed set of genetically determined abilities that define the fundamental predispositions of a person.
Re-spec not only makes a mockery out of that, but also means that overtime people will approach a median value.
Might just as well take out attributes and make everybodies character have the equivalent of 7/7/7/7/6 (simplified example - if you think about it you'll get the point) as a constant in the training formula. That's close to what you get with regular re-spec anyway.
The only good argument for respec is noob mistakes. Easily resolved by allowing noobs to re-spec within first 8-12 weeks or so. By then they'll understand the principles, corp mates will have pointed out mistakes and/or they read recommendations on forum.
If we have to have re-spec to shut up the whiners make it more sensible by allowing to exchange 1 point every 4 (e.g.) months. That would allow for a very gradual adaption that's more credible immersion-wise and doesn't totally kill attributes as a game feature that has any meaning
Also - by not opening the floodgates on attributes CCP would also slow down the lame whiners demands for SP reshuffle (not only sure to come - but also already demanded in the past). --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE |
Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2009.02.16 01:18:00 -
[285]
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 16/02/2009 01:20:15
Originally by: Tippia People are complaining that this will make attributes, bloodlines, and race completely redundant as game mechanics ù they no longer serve any purpose and are completely interchangeable. People are also complaining that this will unduly benefit older characters, rather than the newbies who might have done some mistakes in their point distribution ù the ones the respec functionality is supposed to help.
If that's what CCP wanted to accomplish, they could just remove attributes outright and start seeing those +7 implantsà The effect will be much the same. If it's not what they want to do, they need to seriously rethink how respeccing is going to work.
Good. Bloodlines and race should be interchangeable. People should select characters based on whose backstory is most appealing, not on who's stats are considered optimal for a particular path. I'd be just fine if the only things that differed between character types during creation was the skills associated with the school that was selected.
And +7 plants is not a balanced alternative to this. The only people who would use them are the ones who use +5's now... those who are either really rich or who never expect to die. And it's still mainly going to have the most impact on people who have been in the game longer, which is another complaint people have been making about attribute respeccing.
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Spurty
Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 01:29:00 -
[286]
if ccp really wanted character creation to mean anything beyond the first 6months, they would have made cross training racial ships impossible.
So, you're just plain wrong and whining about something that will help 100% of the players out. BrRAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiNNNNNNZzzzzzzzzzzz |
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.16 01:58:00 -
[287]
Edited by: Glengrant on 16/02/2009 01:59:18
Originally by: Spurty if ccp really wanted character creation to mean anything beyond the first 6months, they would have made cross training racial ships impossible.
You are confused. Restricting cross trainig would have been a stupid and illogical restriction. Skills cost you time. For every skill you train you don't train all the rest. That leads to a variety of specializations.
Base attributes are a fixed number of points (34) you get once (eventually +8/9/10 for training skills and +0 to 5 for implants) for free at start.
Originally by: Spurty So, you're just plain wrong and whining about something that will help 100% of the players out.
How is making attributes meaningless helping anybody? Please note that (probably) nobody is against allwoing noobs (once) to fix early mistakes.
But this (regular respec for everybody) effectively kills attributes as a relevant game feature.
To avoid misunderstandings - I didn't know much about how attributes influence training or what I would need most later when I set my attributes - so they are far from optimal for my skill paths. But I'd rather have them meaning then being able to optimize them in regular intervals. Replacing them with everage values (in the training formula) for everybody and taking them out of the UI would have almost the same long-term effect.
CCP knows this. They just shrug it off. It's not a core feature that will destroy the game if messed up so they sacrifice it to get some short-term happy points from customers who don't understand what they are asking for. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE |
Johnnyan Mark1
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Posted - 2009.02.16 01:59:00 -
[288]
Spurty, that was just silly.
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.02.16 02:40:00 -
[289]
One respec: Yes
Multiple respecs: No ...
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SketS47
Minmatar Alpha Intellectual Military Solutions
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Posted - 2009.02.16 11:34:00 -
[290]
/signed
to easy to train skills, its a gamekiller for alts and vets!
so get it out Only idiots quote themselves -SketS47- |
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Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.16 12:58:00 -
[291]
Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 16/02/2009 12:59:06 Umm, Americianisation imho, don't do it CCP, you saw what haappened to your banks when they took the Americian way and ran with it.
Why ruin a unique product, you guys at CCP are doing rather well at present, you're the most profitable thing in Iceland and your letting your greed genes get the better of you.
The attribute change mechanism is a very crude, instant gratification isk sink that will actually hurt those who use it more than it benifits them..... ..... now if you had come up with new drug products that enhances for a usefull period (30 days) a specific attribute point while reducing another by double the amount, but thats a lot more work than just changing numbers in upto 6 cells in the database: meaning you could have had, new base materials, new harvester equipments, new arrays, new skills, making new opportunities for players on many levels and grown the low and 0.0 game, but nah.....
...... continues overleaf. |
Eight Bit
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.16 14:28:00 -
[292]
Edited by: Eight Bit on 16/02/2009 14:30:06 What if they'd make it so that it will cost isk to let your brain be reprogrammed but there would be a chance that you will lose SP's in the affected attrib skills during the procedure?
And ofcourse incorporate it in the backstory... explaining why you can't do it more than once every six months without increasing the risk.
For instance:
Change attribs with a clean slate will have 15% chance of brain damage (losing SP)
Change attribs <1 month will have a chance of 90% of brain damage
Change attribs between 1 and 2 months after an attrib change will have a chance of 80% of brain damage
Change attribs between 2 and 3 months after an attrib change will have a chance of 70% of brain damage
Change attribs between 3 and 4 months after an attrib change will have a chance of 60% of brain damage
And so forth...
This would make people with high SP think twice before doing an operation like that too often and they would REALLY have to want it
Shoot!
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Xianbei
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Posted - 2009.02.16 17:45:00 -
[293]
whats all the fuss over achura ?
its not the best race choice
amarr khanid cybernight is, not to mention a few others that have nearly identical attributes
eve tribune did an article on this
find it yourself
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5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.02.16 18:11:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Xianbei whats all the fuss over achura ?
its not the best race choice
amarr khanid cybernight is, not to mention a few others that have nearly identical attributes
eve tribune did an article on this
find it yourself
I figured this out for myself when I rerolled after a month on trial.
<--- Ahem.
Though I do have an alt I was given that has far too much memory for my liking.
I still think keep base attributes as unable to be altered, just the 5 points you gave yourself in creation.
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.16 18:13:00 -
[295]
I don't care... Faster training is what I want, this is what gives me faster training. I think it's cool. - - -
Originally by: CCP Prism X I can invent ways to get free candy for you where the implementation is so bad that you'd never want to see candy again in your whole life.
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Dani SP
Rupture Farms Mining
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Posted - 2009.02.16 20:26:00 -
[296]
Originally by: Rodj Blake The problem is that more experienced characters will benefit more than newer ones.
Im just a noob and Im against this new "feature"... but I think you are wrong here.
As far as I undestood you can play with the +5 free points, those which were chosen at character creation.
k lets say a noob is: 12, 10, 9, 9, 7 and a pr0 got these: 26, 24, 24, 21, 18
Obviously the relative benefit/change/whatever of changing 5 attirbute points is higher on the noob, as they can represent 50% his attribute points. When talking about the pro, 5 points is just 20%.
More specifically: a noob got 7intelligence and he adds +5... becomes 12. Like almost double he had. A pro got 23 points and becomes 28... "who cares". OK its a change but its smaller.
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Kyanzes
Amarr Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2009.02.16 20:49:00 -
[297]
YES. PLEASE IMPLEMENT IT! IMPLEMENT IT NOW! AWESOME FEATURE, MUCH NEEDED! --------------------------------------------- Unclouded by conscience, remorse or delusions of morality. |
Spurty
Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 21:37:00 -
[298]
Originally by: Spurty if ccp really wanted character creation to mean anything beyond the first 6months, they would have made cross training racial ships impossible.
So, you're just plain wrong and whining about something that will help 100% of the players out.
I'm waiting for how any of this is incorrect factually. I can see how perceptually it matters, but facts trump feelings. BrRAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiNNNNNNZzzzzzzzzzzz |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 21:49:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Spurty
Originally by: Spurty if ccp really wanted character creation to mean anything beyond the first 6months, they would have made cross training racial ships impossible.
So, you're just plain wrong and whining about something that will help 100% of the players out.
I'm waiting for how any of this is incorrect factually. I can see how perceptually it matters, but facts trump feelings.
It doesn't really contain any facts, but rather a non-sequitur assumption, so…
Character creation currently does matter beyond 6 months since it determines how fast you train and which corps you can join. It also matters, to some degree, in the RP/meta-game since it occasionally determines how people will act against you.
You're also wrong about why people are whining: yes, it will help 100% of the players, but not equally. It will help veterans, character farmers and Achura more. It also invalidates a number of existing mechanics, for no good reason. That is why people are whining. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Spurty
Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 22:27:00 -
[300]
Edited by: Spurty on 16/02/2009 22:27:59 ok, just as long as I know someone else can see that there is nothing in this game that player A can do that player B can not.
Unlike WOW, a Fighter can't cast Wizard spells. Now that would make 'choice' matter.
carry on with your tiresome whining ;0
BrRAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiNNNNNNZzzzzzzzzzzz |
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