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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC.
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2009.02.12 19:39:00 -
[241]
 Originally by: Dari Anoh
Originally by: gnshadowninja
You do realise that 6 months is a fairly long time?
I agree, I think it nicely balances this feature. Sure, you can go for that maximum number of skillpoints per hour, but if you want to train anything else in those 180+ days, you'll be pulling your hair out 'till you look like an exclamation mark or worse. It requires some actual forethought about what you might be up to in the next six months, which I quite like. It gives an extra incentive to think about your character's development, and in some cases will allow you to reach your goals faster if you're willing to dedicate yourself to it.
6 months is nothing, Hate to tell you that but if you think otherwise your wrong, I firmly agree with the OP, 1 time for everyone after they have been playing for 6 months period. I know have no less then 12 6 month training spurts for skills, Finally get the time to start really pushing my T2 weapons as quick as possible, then I'll finish maxing out my hulk/T2 miner skills.
Once to fix mistakes at character creation I agree... but for the love of god CCP do not start on the slippery slop of respecs, once you allow them happening with any frequency you pretty much might as well allow them for everything.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 19:45:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Dari Anoh
Originally by: gnshadowninja
You do realise that 6 months is a fairly long time?
I agree, I think it nicely balances this feature. Sure, you can go for that maximum number of skillpoints per hour, but if you want to train anything else in those 180+ days, you'll be pulling your hair out 'till you look like an exclamation mark or worse. It requires some actual forethought about what you might be up to in the next six months, which I quite like.
Not really, no. Go back to my post on page 6 and look at the distribution of skills an ranks in the game.
The forethought required is minimal, and six months isn't much once you get into rank-5 skills and above. It will matter a bit while you're a newbie and want to get some kind of useful baseline of skills going to get you going, but after that, it's a fairly easy choice to max out two attributes for half a year (which, incidentally, suddenly lends some credence to the common "newbs can't catch up" nonsense).
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Kytanos Termek
Caldari
Darkstorm Command
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:21:00 -
[243]
I think it's a wonderful change. We can finally choose the race we want INSTEAD OF ACHURA 293-D.
Why would anybody dislike this. You get to fix mistakes made. You get to optimize your skills for training. There, is, no, downside.
jeeze eve players can ***** about anything. If CCP mailed you chocolate and gave you a brand new puppy it would probably give birth to a threadnaguht scale whine.
Mrr? |
Rennion
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:28:00 -
[244]
I seem to remember a dev somewhere saying that average lifetime for an account is around the 6month mark? Sorry dont have time to dig for a dev quote...
If thats the case then the timeframe makes perfect sense, just as you are burning out you get the oppurtunity to min/max for a new direction.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:30:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Kytanos Termek
I think it's a wonderful change. We can finally choose the race we want INSTEAD OF ACHURA 293-D.
…except that the Achura now loses its only downside: the "penalty" of low charisma no longer exists. And the Achura also (still) work very well indeed for that first double-speed learning period.
Quote:
Why would anybody dislike this. You get to fix mistakes made. You get to optimize your skills for training. There, is, no, downside.
It has the downside of making attributes irrelevant and promoting min-maxing, character farming, and the EVE-equivalent of power levelling.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Kytanos Termek
Caldari
Darkstorm Command
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:37:00 -
[246]
Edited by: Kytanos Termek on 12/02/2009 20:44:28
We do that anyway. Your Achura. I'm Achura We have been min maxing all this time. Look at all the bloody Achura. Hell I made this character Achura because of attributes. Otherwise I would have chosen Civire. I like the gun on the back. We chose Achura for the attributes. We are the min-maxer's, the power leveler's.
Rather than promoting such. It puts Everyone on equal footing. How is that bad? how can we powerlevel if we all have the exact same attributes. Thats like saying my car goes faster then your car when they both go 50mph
The teapot has called the kettle black and beaten it to death with a brick of coal.
Mrr? |
Agrigan
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:43:00 -
[247]
9 pages and not one dev response leads me to believe they will not be rethinking this.
Continue rants...
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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:49:00 -
[248]
Originally by: Agrigan
9 pages and not one dev response leads me to believe they will not be rethinking this.
Continue rants...
[WTS] Dev Responses cheap.... please send me iskies in game
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Silence Duegood
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:51:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Dari Ano
I agree, I think it nicely balances this feature. Sure, you can go for that maximum number of skillpoints per hour, but if you want to train anything else in those 180+ days, you'll be pulling your hair out 'till you look like an exclamation mark or worse. It requires some actual forethought about what you might be up to in the next six months, which I quite like. It gives an extra incentive to think about your character's development, and in some cases will allow you to reach your goals faster if you're willing to dedicate yourself to it.
Read this thread -
Link to thread
I've already mentioned how, as a vet, it's easy to spend six months training only 6 or 7 skills. If you think it's tough to find 6 or 7 skills with the same primary and secondary attributes you're fooling yourself.
As I mention in the other thread, this respec change does two things -
A. Makes EVE more boring by making more homogeneous.
B. Hurts newer players and helps vets who already have more skill points (and I'm saying this while I own four accounts, two accounts having two characters with over 100 millions SPs).
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Kyra Felann
Gallente
Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2009.02.12 21:43:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Marius Deterium
One of the big advantages of Eve is to not be tied to some archtype. If you need DPS, get in a DPS ship, if you need tank, get in a tank ship. If you need reps, get in a RR ship.
Attribute respec just enhances this.
Everyone training everything at the same rate removes diversity.
This is a bad thing.
There's already not much diversity. Any character can fly any race's ships just as well as their own ships. Races and bloodlines only affect how quickly you learn, not what you can learn or how effective you are at it.
I disagree that everyone will train everything optimally fast. How many people do you think only train skills using 2-3 attributes for six months straight? At the very least, the character will be very one-sided for six months at a time. What if you haven't learned everything you want from, say perception and willpower after six months? If you change your attribute balance, you'll have to stop and start learning new skills. I think many people will probably just balance their attributes and maybe tweak them up or down for near-future skill plans.
If one could redistribute attributes every week or month, I'd agree. But six months is quite a long time.
Maybe I'm biased, though, since I have only one character and one account instead of ten different characters all with a very narrow specialization. If I want to do something in Eve, I have to train for it on my one and only character, so my skills are more broad and less specialized than a specialist character's would be.
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TigerXtrm
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.02.12 21:51:00 -
[251]
Edited by: TigerXtrm on 12/02/2009 21:53:51
Originally by: iudex
First of all it's a good thing that you listen to your players, people have been asking for a chance to correct their beginners mistakes for years.
You try to do things better than people ask, in order to make it awesome, but in this case you overdone it a little bit.
It is perfectly fine to give people the chance for a once-in-a-lifetime redistribution of attributes, that can be done earliest after e.g. 3 months of game-time, so that people make this decision in a moment where they can properly estimate the consequences.
But being able to redistribute every 6 months changes the whole skill training pattern, which has been a successful core feature of Eve for over 5 years.
Now people will max one side for 6 months and then the other in the next 6 months. Everyone will be training everything at maximum speed and efficiency, no diffrence between the industrialist and the combat specialised pilot.
It's a little bit like in Starwars Galaxies:NGE, where your initial choice of your pathway doesn't matter, this arbitrariness isn't necessarily better. It also reduces the necessity of specialised alts (e.g. industry alts for combat pilots) and might even cost you subscriptions, since it will be much easer to re-spec and train the missing skill-trees.
Eve will definitely lose something, if you introduce this the way it is now planned, and there's no way back once you introduce it, so please reconsider this feature again.
Agreed. I'm a fan of remapping attributes as any other noob who made a mistake in Charisma and only found out 3 months later, but changing it every 6 months will wreck the entire skill training system EVE is so famous for!!
The basic idea is good, it's just the proposed time period that's wrong. Not 6 months, make it AT LEAST once a year. Or tie it in with extreme amounts of ISK or dare I say real money like changing your portrait.
6 months is simply to low, period.
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Jalif
Black Sinisters
Freedom of Elbas
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Posted - 2009.02.12 21:58:00 -
[252]
Hmmm.. couldn't be bothered to read whole thread but I see it this way:
1.
To train all skills currently in eve would take how long? 20years no?
Does it really matter if it becomes 18years?
2.
Specialisation is the key in this game. Veterans are no better then 2year old characters. Only thing that veterans have is that they can do more. There will be no change in this after the patch.
3.
Realize that the game is becomming less & less about the skillpoints. Its all about how smart you are. Either how good you can fly with your pvp ship or how good you are in marketing. It doesn't matter.
Smart players are rewarded now instead of those who play the game longer
4.
Less achura characters. Tbh, I saw a never stopping increasing of achura characters and I think CCP got "sick" of it. I would like to see diversity of faces in eve. And in ambulation that will become more important.
My conclussion:
The re-spec isn't a bad thing at all.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:04:00 -
[253]
Originally by: gnshadowninja
I love the system, You do realise that 6 months is a fairly long time? lol.
Shadow.
Six months may be a long time in other games, but not in Eve.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Silence Duegood
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:05:00 -
[254]
If we'll all be maxing two stats at any given time for optimal training times, why not just drop three irrelevant attributes from EVE, forego the new respec system, and just streamline the entire process.
Two stats, max training at all times. We all win.
Right?
Riiight??
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:05:00 -
[255]
I'm a thumbs down to the attribute redistribution
---
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Ergebt Euch
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Posted - 2009.02.13 01:23:00 -
[256]
@ 20 years of skilltime arguement, that people bring over and over again:
If CCP wanted everyone to train faster, they could introduce +6 or +7 implants. Those who want all the skills, and only in this case the 20 years arguement is vaild, would gather enough assets after few monts or years to be able to afford them.
Minmaxing simply sucks. There shouldn't be diffrent attributes for diffrent races or even better, no attributes at all, with minmaxing they are obsolete anyways.
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Armoured C
Gallente
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.13 01:25:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Ergebt Euch
@ 20 years of skilltime arguement, that people bring over and over again:
If CCP wanted everyone to train faster, they could introduce +6 or +7 implants. Those who want all the skills, and only in this case the 20 years arguement is vaild, would gather enough assets after few monts or years to be able to afford them.
Minmaxing simply sucks. There shouldn't be diffrent attributes for diffrent races or even better, no attributes at all, with minmaxing they are obsolete anyways.
then what would be the point of different races
it good for different change cus then there are no charater like yours
everyone is unique
This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 06:31:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Jalif
To train all skills currently in eve would take how long? 20years no?
Does it really matter if it becomes 18years?
Depends on your attributes (obviously). At an even spread, it's about 26 years. This will bring it down to 22. The reason it matters is because of how many of those years hinge on two very specific combinations: Int/Mem and Per/Wil. That 26+:22 relation will almost directly mirror how much faster it takes to learn the Int/Mem and/or Per/Wil subsets, which takes up some 75% of all skills and 85% of all ranks.
Quote:
Specialisation is the key in this game. Veterans are no better then 2year old characters. Only thing that veterans have is that they can do more. There will be no change in this after the patch.
Specialisation also means that you will quickly find the attribute pair that matters most to you, so the whole "who spends 6 months training a single type of skills" argument goes out the window.
Quote:
Less achura characters.
No, more. Achura loses its only (tiny) drawback. Achura is still very well set up for the first double-speed learning phase. Achura still has the best attribute for the first period of baseline training.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
motomysz
No Limit Productions
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.02.13 07:03:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Silence Duegood
If we'll all be maxing two stats at any given time for optimal training times, why not just drop three irrelevant attributes from EVE, forego the new respec system, and just streamline the entire process.
Two stats, max training at all times. We all win.
Right?
Riiight??
This is my train of thought exactly.
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Insa Rexion
Minmatar
M3T4LH34DZ
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Posted - 2009.02.13 08:19:00 -
[260]
Originally by: Kytanos Termek
I think it's a wonderful change. We can finally choose the race we want INSTEAD OF ACHURA 293-D.
Why would anybody dislike this. You get to fix mistakes made. You get to optimize your skills for training. There, is, no, downside.
everything you listed there can be done in a one time only respec
well mannered a**h*** |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 09:07:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Armoured C
Originally by: Ergebt Euch
@ 20 years of skilltime arguement, that people bring over and over again:
If CCP wanted everyone to train faster, they could introduce +6 or +7 implants. Those who want all the skills, and only in this case the 20 years arguement is vaild, would gather enough assets after few monts or years to be able to afford them.
Minmaxing simply sucks. There shouldn't be diffrent attributes for diffrent races or even better, no attributes at all, with minmaxing they are obsolete anyways.
then what would be the point of different races
it good for different change cus then there are no charater like yours
everyone is unique
What's the point of having races when re-specs will mean that everyone can have the attributes that they want?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.02.13 09:38:00 -
[262]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
What's the point of having races when re-specs will mean that everyone can have the attributes that they want?
I think the race has been "RP only" the day every ship was available to every race.
You don't want to know how rude i would've been 
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Cadde
Gallente
Gene Works
AKA-AHN KINGDOM
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Posted - 2009.02.13 11:47:00 -
[263]
DIDN'T YOUR MOM TELL YOU CROSS TRAINING IS BAD FOR YOU???
Seriously, if it takes 4 years to get to a specialization skill group that floats your boat you with perfect attributes. How long will it take to get to BOTH that and other specialization group if you keep switching attributes every 6 months?
The people complaining are doing so because they expect every mother to start training all those other skills that they "couldn't" train before but the truth is, people who cross train will keep doing so. At least now they can boost their training a little but they will NOT become specialists in all fields. It will STILL take 4 years to get to the same place as the other guy. And to become a 4 year specialist in two fields will STILL take 4+4 years, in other words, eight years!
MAYBE... JUST MAYBE!
Have it occured to you that CCP could have planned this? Could it be that CCP will start releasing skills that will "require" you to have really good attributes in perc/will for the first stage and then char/memory for the second stage. In other words, a very long time training those skills and then to get really specialized you are going to use completely different attributes for the next year?
I foresee an EvE with skills that would take 60 years to get that "all LVL 5" character of wtfpwn we see in EFT.
Stop b**ching and start asking CCP why everybody is going to need this 6 month redistribution even if all they wanna do is fly an interceptor. Either way, this is going to be helpful for all those who picked the absolute opposite of what they really wanted. And if they find they actually wanted what they had at a later stage ... CCP won't have to listen to even MOAR b**tching!
YAAAAAR! When you emoragequit over this ... your stuff? I can has? PLOX? |
Evocationz
Amarr
Terra Nostra
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Posted - 2009.02.13 11:52:00 -
[264]
pvp pilots WHINE |
Rennion
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Posted - 2009.02.13 12:29:00 -
[265]
Anyone saying that 6 months is not a long time needs a reality check. Long term multi-year players are not the norm in eve, you are not the majority you just think you are because you gravitate together.
Most players have come and gone within a 7 month timescale. Most players ahve accounts inactive for vast stretchs of time and a literal ****ton of the 2003 characters have had multiple owners.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 12:31:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Rennion
Anyone saying that 6 months is not a long time needs a reality check. Long term multi-year players are not the norm in eve, you are not the majority you just think you are because you gravitate together.
Most players have come and gone within a 7 month timescale. Most players ahve accounts inactive for vast stretchs of time and a literal ****ton of the 2003 characters have had multiple owners.
The thing is, that those players who only last seven months will be at more of a disadvantage SP wise after these changes. |
Rennion
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Posted - 2009.02.13 12:35:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Rennion
Anyone saying that 6 months is not a long time needs a reality check. Long term multi-year players are not the norm in eve, you are not the majority you just think you are because you gravitate together.
Most players have come and gone within a 7 month timescale. Most players ahve accounts inactive for vast stretchs of time and a literal ****ton of the 2003 characters have had multiple owners.
The thing is, that those players who only last seven months will be at more of a disadvantage SP wise after these changes.
They barely have time to benefit from learning skills either, eve is a ***** like that. What they can do is take a high int and a high perc allowing them to move swiftly through there baseline skills.
It also means that if they ever come back to eve they can switch roles fairly easily. Everyone is not looking at the bigger picture with changes coming to eve many of which are there to achive higher conversation rates and longer player retention.
What happens now when you are getting sick of eve at 6 months in is you have the option to completely switch direction and not be punished for it. |
ddanblack
Minmatar
Zero Gravity Inc
United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.13 13:02:00 -
[268]
Originally by: iudex
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate
for example you won't complain that you started a hunter in Lotro instead of a warden, and therefore can't tank very well for the rest of your game-time. That's an initial choice which you make in your fist 3 mins of playing and which has a permanent impact on your game-play (again, except in SWG:NGE fail).
but in other mmos like LOTRO you can make more then one char on an account infaxt you can make about 8 so you dont need to respec you just make a new cha with the class you want were in eve its a big "NO you only can train one char!" yes being able to do it every 6 months could be a bad thing but not everyone will go half and then change every 6 months. |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
|
Posted - 2009.02.13 13:18:00 -
[269]
Originally by: Rennion
Anyone saying that 6 months is not a long time needs a reality check. Long term multi-year players are not the norm in eve, you are not the majority you just think you are because you gravitate together.
Most players have come and gone within a 7 month timescale. Most players ahve accounts inactive for vast stretchs of time and a literal ****ton of the 2003 characters have had multiple owners.
And that's the whole problem. This change favours veterans and character farmers only. New players get screwed over in just about every way imaginable (well, apart from fixing those newbie mistakes, which could be fixed by limit the redsitribution to a once-in-a-lifetime change).
It's great for min-maxers (who don't need a buff) and for us Achuras (who don't need a buff). How is that a good change? |
Tivookz
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 13:22:00 -
[270]
Atribute respec is a great feature, please add it.
And to all you nay sayers. Let me introduce my middle finger to you. .|..
Tiv |
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