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iudex
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.02.10 15:52:00 -
[1]
First of all it's a good thing that you listen to your players, people have been asking for a chance to correct their beginners mistakes for years. You try to do things better than people ask, in order to make it awesome, but in this case you overdone it a little bit.
It is perfectly fine to give people the chance for a once-in-a-lifetime redistribution of attributes, that can be done earliest after e.g. 3 months of game-time, so that people make this decision in a moment where they can properly estimate the consequences.
But being able to redistribute every 6 months changes the whole skill training pattern, which has been a successful core feature of Eve for over 5 years. Now people will max one side for 6 months and then the other in the next 6 months. Everyone will be training everything at maximum speed and efficiency, no diffrence between the industrialist and the combat specialised pilot.
It's a little bit like in Starwars Galaxies:NGE, where your initial choice of your pathway doesn't matter, this arbitrariness isn't necessarily better. It also reduces the necessity of specialised alts (e.g. industry alts for combat pilots) and might even cost you subscriptions, since it will be much easer to re-spec and train the missing skill-trees. Eve will definitely lose something, if you introduce this the way it is now planned, and there's no way back once you introduce it, so please reconsider this feature again.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.02.10 15:57:00 -
[2]
Originally by: iudex
somethingwhatnot ... It's a little bit like in Starwars Galaxies:NGE....
This alone justified a new thread about this. |
Zephyr Rengate
Caldari Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.02.10 15:59:00 -
[3]
Great change is great, quit whining about a feature that enables you to make up for mistakes made in the first 3 mins of playing. |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 15:59:00 -
[4]
The OP has some good points and makes them well.
I for one and intrigued by his ideas and would like to subscribe to his newsletter. |
Marius Deterium
Caldari The Hull Miners Union Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:00:00 -
[5]
One of the big advantages of Eve is to not be tied to some archtype. If you need DPS, get in a DPS ship, if you need tank, get in a tank ship. If you need reps, get in a RR ship.
Attribute respec just enhances this. |
Khemul Zula
Amarr Keisen Trade League
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:00:00 -
[6]
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Marius Deterium One of the big advantages of Eve is to not be tied to some archtype. If you need DPS, get in a DPS ship, if you need tank, get in a tank ship. If you need reps, get in a RR ship.
Attribute respec just enhances this.
Everyone training everything at the same rate removes diversity.
This is a bad thing.
|
Da'iel Zehn
Construct Core Operations Construct Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:03:00 -
[8]
wow... haven't heard about this. I'd like to redo my atributes as I had no idea what I was doing when I first started.
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Da'iel Zehn
Construct Core Operations Construct Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:04:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Khemul Zula Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
never! |
Faife
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:04:00 -
[10]
oh no, my sci fi game allows sci fi things to happen O_O |
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iudex
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:11:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Great change is great, quit whining about a feature that enables you to make up for mistakes made in the first 3 mins of playing.
As i mentioned in the OP i think giving people to chance to re specialise once after they got known the game is a good choice, what I'm against is that regular re-specialisation, which will lead to phenomena described above. In addition to that, you can't re-specialise in most MMOs as well, for example you won't complain that you started a hunter in Lotro instead of a warden, and therefore can't tank very well for the rest of your game-time. That's an initial choice which you make in your fist 3 mins of playing and which has a permanent impact on your game-play (again, except in SWG:NGE fail).
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Kayosoni
Caldari Destructive Influence KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:12:00 -
[12]
ITT: Butthurt achura cause he'll no longer have an advantage over every other bloodline (except for the 3 base charisma) |
VoiceInTheDesert
Diplomatic Disruption Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:12:00 -
[13]
So I have been on sisi and from what I saw, you can't change EVERYTHING in your attributes...just the 5 points that you distribute at the beginning. I've heard that at some point, you might be able to change your bloodline attributes as well, but that certainly is not the case at the moment.
If this remains true, it will not lead to a really big shift in training time, just a small one for people who made some annoying mistakes at some point in character creatinon. |
Zephyr Rengate
Caldari Wrath of Fenris
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 16:13:00 -
[14]
Originally by: iudex
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Great change is great, quit whining about a feature that enables you to make up for mistakes made in the first 3 mins of playing.
As i mentioned in the OP i think giving people to chance to re specialise once after they got known the game is a good choice, what I'm against is that regular re-specialisation, which will lead to phenomena described above. In addition to that, you can't re-specialise in most MMOs as well, for example you won't complain that you started a hunter in Lotro instead of a warden, and therefore can't tank very well for the rest of your game-time. That's an initial choice which you make in your fist 3 mins of playing and which has a permanent impact on your game-play (again, except in SWG:NGE fail).
I can change my talents in wow for a small gold fee. |
Kayosoni
Caldari Destructive Influence KenZoku
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 16:13:00 -
[15]
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert So I have been on sisi and from what I saw, you can't change EVERYTHING in your attributes...just the 5 points that you distribute at the beginning. I've heard that at some point, you might be able to change your bloodline attributes as well, but that certainly is not the case at the moment.
If this remains true, it will not lead to a really big shift in training time, just a small one for people who made some annoying mistakes at some point in character creatinon.
you're dumb. You can minus any attribute down to 5 base points. |
teoliit
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 16:16:00 -
[16]
Attributes are dumb, they just get in the way of letting people do what they want They have nothing to do with ambition, commitment to the game, risk taking or anything at all. They just sit there as a big road block |
Cat o'Ninetails
Rancer Defence Force
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:17:00 -
[17]
Times CCP hasn't listened to people about
Missiles / speed nerf Ghost Training and more!
Soon to be aattribute respecing.
I personalyl want to respec my char. |
Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:18:00 -
[18]
provided its still green, I got bugged out and my redistribution was nuked and I spent my once in a blue moon respect on it.
Its not going to change the fact carebares will remain carebares and noobish at pvp and pvpers will always be the ones with teeth. but seriously 20 years for every skill in eve is little rediciolose atm, good thing they arent putting in those player buildable from dead players tech 2 learning implants and making the current tech 2s into faction variants. |
Mukutep
Gallente The Centurions
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:18:00 -
[19]
I don't necessarily agree it's going to take away specialized characters. So it lets me train up for some thing I want in 6 months instead of 8 months? There's still a lot of time investment in certain paths. IMO, the type of person who wants more than one account/alt so they can have specialized characters is still going to do it, because they probably don't want to wait slightly less time than they would have had to wait anyway. |
Gunnanmon
Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:34:00 -
[20]
/me sighs |
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:35:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Nova Fox but seriously 20 years for every skill in eve is little rediciolose atm,
And how long does it take you to get a single character with the abilities of all classes at max level in WoW or any other MMO? |
Florio
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:46:00 -
[22]
i agree with OP completely.
one off respec is necessary and we've been asking for it.
respec every 6 months makes a mockery of having attributes at all, and in addition imho may lead to higher noob attrition as they are told on the forums to maximise int/mem or perc/wp at the beginning and then are stuck with crap ship/weaponry or support/industrial skills for 6 months.
i'd be amazed if the current proposals make it to tranquility as surely the above points made by the op and others including myself are just common sense?
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Nexus Kinnon
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:47:00 -
[23]
No, don't. This is the best feature of M10.
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Rowdy Yates
Caldari Redneck Rangers
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:48:00 -
[24]
Do this mean I don't gots to be stoopid no more?
--------------------
Roadkill possum is flat, like pizza! |
sirovai
Amarr Modern-Warfare
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:54:00 -
[25]
This is the only feature I'm intrested about in the next patch.
Dont ruin it for me.
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Kirex
Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:59:00 -
[26]
tl;dr.
But **** no, I want to redistribute my charisma points. :( |
RisenPhoenix
Shadowyn Corp.
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:05:00 -
[27]
A ONE TIME redistribution is good. Every 6 months is bad for the many reasons already stated |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:11:00 -
[28]
Attribute respec is only the beginning. The next step will be redistributing the trained skillpoints. People will like to change their carrier skills to dreadnought skills once the carriers get nerfed. Or change the missile skills to gunnery, since it took them months to realise that missiles suck. Or fly the current p0wning fotm ship.
If people like that, why shouldnt the company cater to their needs
|
Cyb3r D3ath
Umbra Legion Shadow Empire.
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:21:00 -
[29]
I like the new respec system the way it is thank you. Good job CCP! |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:21:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Attribute respec is only the beginning. The next step will be redistributing the trained skillpoints. People will like to change their carrier skills to dreadnought skills once the carriers get nerfed. Or change the missile skills to gunnery, since it took them months to realise that missiles suck. Or fly the current p0wning fotm ship.
If people like that, why shouldnt the company cater to their needs
This is also a fear of mine. |
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Number 86
Eat Ship and Die
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:29:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Number 86 on 10/02/2009 17:34:30 OP is slippery slope or red heron......... one of them anyways.
cant actually argue that everyone will do something always
just to let you know, from the pics I have seen there is a cap on each attribute. So you cant really "min/max" like you think.
*edit Just calm down, to be honest I have a feeling the more people will simply take a single respec and go for a more balanced approach (close to equal attribute, maybe leaving charisma a little short). The people whom have really unbalanced attributes are the one's who, to me, are the most likely to benefit from a respec. I went for a very balanced attribute spread on both my characters and I honestly doubt whether I will ever respec. |
DNSBLACK
Gallente Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:32:00 -
[32]
Can some one link the blog or the post on this matter. Iam having trouble finding it. I would like to read about this proposed change. |
Alowishus
the united Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:32:00 -
[33]
Sorry but this is a good thing. And if you don't like it you don't have to use it.
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Karlemgne
Tides Of War
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:33:00 -
[34]
Originally by: iudex First of all it's a good thing that you listen to your players, people have been asking for a chance to correct their beginners mistakes for years. You try to do things better than people ask, in order to make it awesome, but in this case you overdone it a little bit.
It is perfectly fine to give people the chance for a once-in-a-lifetime redistribution of attributes, that can be done earliest after e.g. 3 months of game-time, so that people make this decision in a moment where they can properly estimate the consequences.
But being able to redistribute every 6 months changes the whole skill training pattern, which has been a successful core feature of Eve for over 5 years. Now people will max one side for 6 months and then the other in the next 6 months. Everyone will be training everything at maximum speed and efficiency, no diffrence between the industrialist and the combat specialised pilot.
It's a little bit like in Starwars Galaxies:NGE, where your initial choice of your pathway doesn't matter, this arbitrariness isn't necessarily better. It also reduces the necessity of specialised alts (e.g. industry alts for combat pilots) and might even cost you subscriptions, since it will be much easer to re-spec and train the missing skill-trees. Eve will definitely lose something, if you introduce this the way it is now planned, and there's no way back once you introduce it, so please reconsider this feature again.
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
In other news, this is NOTHING like SWG and the NGE. Stop fear mongering.
-Karlemgne |
insidion
Caldari Last of the Technocracy Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:34:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Cyb3r D3ath I like the new respec system the way it is thank you. Good job CCP!
This.
Every six months is a necessary evil because frankly things change, and so does your focus. I have no idea why now of course, but when I started EVE, I focused almost entirely on industry. I was so displeased with my original character that I deleted it after my trial was up and did a complete fresh start with a new one that made better use of the attributes. Two weeks down the toilet, but after a few years I don't regret it at all.
Choosing to boost your attribs in one direction comes with the direct penalty that you suck at all other attribs. Besides, if 'they' can do it, so can you, so overall it's balanced and I really don't see any reason to not offer this option, particularly so that noobies can feel like they have a chance to 'catch up' SP wise to the vets of the game. Just because you can fly a certain ship or even ship class certainly does not mean that you are 'good' at it. That can only really come from experience and really playing the game.
Don't like it, don't use it, but don't ruin it for the innumerable that do want this feature. =) |
Ergebt Euch
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:37:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Alowishus Sorry but this is a good thing. And if you don't like it you don't have to use it.
Wow what a brilliant point ! Let's ask CCP to give everyone 10 billion isk and a navy titan. This will crash the economy, but hey, if you don't like it you don't have to take it.
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AkRoYeR
Amarr
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:39:00 -
[37]
Unfortunately CCP like every other MMO has been forced to think about "cash" instead of tried and tested gameplay.
You can't blame a company for dumbing down such an awesome game, every other company is doing it also.
It's the trend of the future. You can't have complicated MMOs or the kids won't want to play them = mom and dad don't pay bill.
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Rviii
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:39:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Cyb3r D3ath I like the new respec system the way it is thank you. Good job CCP!
I agree, good job, not too much, not too little. It's about time there was some new thinking, so many pessimists here.
"If you take on pebble and everyone did there be no beach?" not going to happen...
Role on the fixes !! Viva la Eve
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N'irrti
Amarr Viziam
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:43:00 -
[39]
Edited by: N''irrti on 10/02/2009 17:43:45
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Everyone training everything at the same rate removes diversity.
This is a bad thing.
qft
|
Sazkyen
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:44:00 -
[40]
Originally by: AkRoYeR Unfortunately CCP like every other MMO has been forced to think about "cash" instead of tried and tested gameplay.
You can't blame a company for dumbing down such an awesome game, every other company is doing it also.
It's the trend of the future. You can't have complicated MMOs or the kids won't want to play them = mom and dad don't pay bill.
And you arrogant like hell.
|
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Plumpy McPudding
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:44:00 -
[41]
Originally by: N'irrti Edited by: N''irrti on 10/02/2009 17:43:45
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Everyone training everything at the same rate removes diversity.
This is a bad thing.
qft
Everyone of the same race/makeup have been training at the same rate for years. They aren't called cookie cutter builds for nothing. __________________________
Fear me for I have an insatiable appetite! Proprietor and inventor of Chocolate Chip Chocolate Donut flavored Ice Cream. |
Alowishus
the united Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:45:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Ergebt Euch
Originally by: Alowishus Sorry but this is a good thing. And if you don't like it you don't have to use it.
Wow what a brilliant point ! Let's ask CCP to give everyone 10 billion isk and a navy titan. This will crash the economy, but hey, if you don't like it you don't have to take it.
I made one statement and then another, I didn't say the second statement was validation for the first.
I do empathize with MMO purists who insist that a game must suck in order to be good and revel in the annoyances, don't get me wrong.
/makes fart noise |
AkRoYeR
Amarr
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:46:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Alowishus
Originally by: Ergebt Euch
Originally by: Alowishus Sorry but this is a good thing. And if you don't like it you don't have to use it.
Wow what a brilliant point ! Let's ask CCP to give everyone 10 billion isk and a navy titan. This will crash the economy, but hey, if you don't like it you don't have to take it.
I made one statement and then another, I didn't say the second statement was validation for the first.
I do empathize with MMO purists who insist that a game must suck in order to be good and revel in the annoyances, don't get me wrong.
Not necessarily purists, but rather a different mindset, probably one of more maturity.
|
Alowishus
the united Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:47:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Marius Deterium One of the big advantages of Eve is to not be tied to some archtype. If you need DPS, get in a DPS ship, if you need tank, get in a tank ship. If you need reps, get in a RR ship.
Attribute respec just enhances this.
Everyone training everything at the same rate removes diversity.
This is a bad thing.
Everyone being Archura Monks or Sebiestor Tinkerers removes diversity from the game. Leveling the playing field puts diversity back in.
/makes fart noise |
Alowishus
the united Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:49:00 -
[45]
Originally by: AkRoYeR Not necessarily purists, but rather a different mindset, probably one of more maturity.
And yet you're probably the type of person who stupidly jumps into my gate camp and then whines about how hard Eve is.
/makes fart noise |
Plumpy McPudding
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:49:00 -
[46]
Originally by: AkRoYeR
Originally by: Alowishus
Originally by: Ergebt Euch
Originally by: Alowishus Sorry but this is a good thing. And if you don't like it you don't have to use it.
Wow what a brilliant point ! Let's ask CCP to give everyone 10 billion isk and a navy titan. This will crash the economy, but hey, if you don't like it you don't have to take it.
I made one statement and then another, I didn't say the second statement was validation for the first.
I do empathize with MMO purists who insist that a game must suck in order to be good and revel in the annoyances, don't get me wrong.
Not necessarily purists, but rather a different mindset, probably one of more maturity.
I couldn't agree more! When they added the ability to view contracts in different regions, I was most upset. My maturity to tolerate useless and time consuming activities was trounced by immature little brats! /sarcasm __________________________
Fear me for I have an insatiable appetite! Proprietor and inventor of Chocolate Chip Chocolate Donut flavored Ice Cream. |
YORK CRAFT
Caldari KRAFTWERK
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:50:00 -
[47]
The OP got the point quite good.
To respec once after 3 month of character-creation is kind of fair ( think : thats 2 times more you get compared to RL ! )
But seriously, after that, all other changes and progresses belonging exclusively to skills, implants and ships/modules.
An attribute is a basic feature for an avatar, like human DNA, and not a profane module you can replace or change as you want from time to time !
York Craft
|
RisenPhoenix
Shadowyn Corp.
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:51:00 -
[48]
Edited by: RisenPhoenix on 10/02/2009 17:51:08
Originally by: Alowishus
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Marius Deterium One of the big advantages of Eve is to not be tied to some archtype. If you need DPS, get in a DPS ship, if you need tank, get in a tank ship. If you need reps, get in a RR ship.
Attribute respec just enhances this.
Everyone training everything at the same rate removes diversity.
This is a bad thing.
Everyone being Archura Monks or Sebiestor Tinkerers removes diversity from the game. Leveling the playing field puts diversity back in.
a 1 time respec fixes overpowered bloodline problems and young and stupid mistakes no reason for it to be every 6 months that wouldd ruin the games diversity
------------------------------------------------
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Kytanos Termek
Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:51:00 -
[49]
I dont understand why everyone is complaining it's a wonderful feature. Mrr? |
Taylor timenenzi
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 17:59:00 -
[50]
Because we really needed another one of these threads right?
It would prolly serve your cause better to make on major thread that runs 10 pages or more then thinknig your special and need to make your own little thread. |
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 18:00:00 -
[51]
I don't see it as a huge issue, really. You can't distribute below 5 points, so the minmaxing achura are pretty screwed anyway. |
Talidorn
The Scope
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 18:04:00 -
[52]
Alright! I like it!!!!
My evemon plans will now be 6 months long. Max SP gain INT\MEM for 6 months (to fix things like electronics, engineering, etc) then 6 months for PER\WILL for 6 months to get ships & weapons!
Good call CCP. This will help my carebear self move to more pewage.
I just hope the queue lasts more than 24H. :D
Talidorn
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Jin Entres
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 18:06:00 -
[53]
On the other hand, the ability to re-allocate attributes encourages players to try out other facets of gameplay aswell as favours new players who can make most use of the feature. Benefits to new players are arguably the lifeline of any MMO and the 'metagaming opportunity' this feature enables is not all that harmful. People still have room to make mistakes: consider for instance the hypothetical Bob who wants to train some combat skills, re-allocates his stats for the purpose only to discover a week later that he ù for one reason or another ù doesn't want to take the path afterall.
In fact, if you look at it this way, the feature favours smart playing over a situation where some have been advantaged as the result of mainly luck. If anything, it is more fair of a system where advantage is not tied to a singular choice but the recurring need to make optimal choices for the sake of competitiveness. And in the end, differences in attributes take time to bear fruit and remain only a small part of what makes a successful character.
However, I would not be against dropping the frequency of re-allocation to a year, or something in between a year and 6 months. |
Uraga Kurofune
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 18:08:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Uraga Kurofune on 10/02/2009 18:08:17 All I need is a one time attrib respec for my main who has ridiculously high charisma. Other than that I couldn't care less.
|
Karash Amerius
Evolution KenZoku
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 18:10:00 -
[55]
Everyone seems to love this...but I really have a gut feeling that CCP is 'jumping the shark' here. If CHA is such a problem, why not just come out with more CHA based skills/gameplay design? Seems like giving up on that is bad form.
Choices should always have consequences...its the core design element in Eve.
(This coming from a very high CHA / WP char...that is PVP based )
____________________________________________ "Fighting Broke" - An Ex-Merc Blog |
Berious
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 18:11:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Kayosoni ITT: Butthurt achura cause he'll no longer have an advantage over every other bloodline (except for the 3 base charisma)
Yeah, this
|
Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam Exalted.
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 18:13:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Kayosoni ITT: Butthurt achura cause he'll no longer have an advantage over every other bloodline (except for the 3 base charisma)
this
- Infectious - |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 18:24:00 -
[58]
Originally by: insidion Tvery six months is a necessary evil because frankly things change, and so does your focus. I have no idea why now of course, but when I started EVE, I focused almost entirely on industry. I was so displeased with my original character that I deleted it after my trial was up and did a complete fresh start with a new one that made better use of the attributes. Two weeks down the toilet, but after a few years I don't regret it at all.
And that is the real problem — a problem that respeccing hides rather than solves, and I'd say that the same goes for the proposed NPE mechanism.
The apparent problem is that you don't really know ahead of time what you want to do later, and that this holds especially true for new players. However, wouldn't a better solution be to actually be very upfront about what the attributes are used for and about which are more important for the different paths? The new character creation method even further muddies the water by doing away with the (admittedly minimally) instructive carreer paths and the skills you get automatically with them, and instead effectively forces people to start out with training learning skills, learning skills and nothing but learning skills.
Also, wouldn't it help a lot of the usefulness of the different attributes were mixed up a bit? Make sure that those "miscalculations" at the beginning no longer are miscalculations, because every attribute turns out to be very very useful.
Yes, yes, I'm saying this because I'm a Cha 3 Achura etc etc etc… except that the reason I'm a Cha 3 Achura is because it was obvious from the second I started the game that Charisma was a useless attribute.
I'm not against respeccing as such (not that I will use it since it forces me to increase my precccciousssss Cha 3 to 5, iiik!), but I think it's a rather roundabout way to attack a problem that should be solved rather than covered up… Solve the problem and that forced Cha increase won't feel like a sacrifice, but rather as a good investment. |
5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:30:00 -
[59]
Why I think attribute respecialisation is good ;
- Fix mistakes in first 3 minutes of play ( As said, this could stop certain people who may consider subbing their trials but didn't cause their attribs were borked so they just let the trial end and went elsewhere. )
- Character traders have one less thing penalising them (Still going to have embarrassingly ******ed names sometimes. Razz )
- Attributes become a little more of a active ingame element, rather then do learning, stick in implants, forget about them.
- You can't train all professions on one character, it'd take forever, someone pointed out the other day to look at what Dr Caymus doesn't have and he's been skilling for 5 years. Besides if people decide to train two professions on the same char using attribute respec, LESS METAGAMING!. Smile
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viuva
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:32:00 -
[60]
CCP i want to put my Skillpoints in another skill... hope you remember me in next patch.. this is whant gonna happen next !! Bad idea... this feature sucks
First you remove learning skills lvl5 to train the advanced learnings... now this
this is going the wrong way !!! Macdonnalds way
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Alowishus
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:23:00 -
[61]
Originally by: RisenPhoenix Edited by: RisenPhoenix on 10/02/2009 17:51:08
Originally by: Alowishus
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Marius Deterium One of the big advantages of Eve is to not be tied to some archtype. If you need DPS, get in a DPS ship, if you need tank, get in a tank ship. If you need reps, get in a RR ship.
Attribute respec just enhances this.
Everyone training everything at the same rate removes diversity.
This is a bad thing.
Everyone being Archura Monks or Sebiestor Tinkerers removes diversity from the game. Leveling the playing field puts diversity back in.
a 1 time respec fixes overpowered bloodline problems and young and stupid mistakes no reason for it to be every 6 months that wouldd ruin the games diversity
But don't you see the problem with this? Sensible is focusing on Per/Int/Wil/Mem in that order, as that's how the skills are biased in the game. Which means you'd probably want to respec for Leadership and/or other Mem/Cha focused skills. So what then, you're stuck with a char that can can only efficiently learn 10% of the skills in the game? No, being able to respec more than once makes it so Leadership and other such skills are not such a ****ing punishment. Would have made more sense to remove Charisma from the game entirely? Probably. But then what would you do about all the folks with 26 Charisma points? You'd have to respec them anyway.
This is an elegant solution to the Charisma problem. That's all. |
Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:29:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Great change is great, quit whining about a feature that enables you to make up for mistakes made in the first 3 mins of playing.
You mean player names? |
Jenny' JoJo
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:35:00 -
[63]
CCP should go one step further and remove attributes. Have the same training speed but implants give a bonus to training speed only.
This way we get true diversity in the form of skills insted of crazy system of Class baised Achura |
mcnuggetlol
Amarr Outlandish Operations
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:41:00 -
[64]
EVE has the learning curve of a brick wall. Many people may have put points into stats they thought they needed for their chosen profession but actually didn't, or changed their mind on what it was they wanted to do soon after creation. Attribute respeccing simply allows players to correct the dumbass mistakes they made while they were still learning the ropes. |
Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:57:00 -
[65]
I think a single respec of attributes for any character created before Bloodlines would be fair.... I think this is going a little WOW-ish for my liking... |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:57:00 -
[66]
I propose the two free for <6mo and either:
A) One respec EVER
or
B) One respec a year
Either would prevent min/max'ing and go a long ways in ensuring that attributes actually mean something.
But I'd deffinantly like a respec, my 14 BASE charisma hurts. |
Angus's Babe
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:01:00 -
[67]
Originally by: mcnuggetlol EVE has the learning curve of a brick wall. Many people may have put points into stats they thought they needed for their chosen profession but actually didn't, or changed their mind on what it was they wanted to do soon after creation. Attribute respeccing simply allows players to correct the dumbass mistakes they made while they were still learning the ropes.
yea i speced for mining but havent mined for 4 years |
Missiles Jesus
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:07:00 -
[68]
Originally by: N'irrti Edited by: N''irrti on 10/02/2009 17:43:45
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Everyone training everything at the same rate removes diversity.
This is a bad thing.
qft
Indeed qft |
Klyde
The Nightshift Rough Necks
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:16:00 -
[69]
I have skills that I trained years ago and are of no use to me but I am still against this respec thing. All the learning we have done whether good or bad make us who we are.
Everyone will be flying around in the same cookie cutter build and this will in fact make this game like WoW in that respect.
CCP, if you really want to change things allow us to train more then one char on an account, most ppl in this game that are here for more then 6 months run two accounts or more so they can work together with each other.
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Malvaroth Vidaru
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:20:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate
I can change my talents in wow for a small gold fee.
Ah, but not your class.
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Alowishus
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:32:00 -
[71]
Don't think of this as a new feature, think of it as the best solution to a problem (what I call the Charisma Problem) that they could come up with at this point. I'm sure it's subject to change and future revision, like everything else in Eve.
/makes fart noise |
Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:42:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Klyde
I have skills that I trained years ago and are of no use to me but I am still against this respec thing. All the learning we have done whether good or bad make us who we are.
Everyone will be flying around in the same cookie cutter build and this will in fact make this game like WoW in that respect.
CCP, if you really want to change things allow us to train more then one char on an account, most ppl in this game that are here for more then 6 months run two accounts or more so they can work together with each other.
It isn't a skill respec. There has not been so much as a whisper from CCP regarding even the most tenuous consideration of ever implementing a skill respec system. I agree with your criticism of skill respeccing but that isn't what's going on, despite more and more people confusing attributes and skills in this debate. |
Insa Rexion
Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:47:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Number 86 Edited by: Number 86 on 10/02/2009 17:34:30 OP is slippery slope or red heron......... one of them anyways.
cant actually argue that everyone will do something always
just to let you know, from the pics I have seen there is a cap on each attribute. So you cant really "min/max" like you think.
*edit Just calm down, to be honest I have a feeling the more people will simply take a single respec and go for a more balanced approach (close to equal attribute, maybe leaving charisma a little short). The people whom have really unbalanced attributes are the one's who, to me, are the most likely to benefit from a respec. I went for a very balanced attribute spread on both my characters and I honestly doubt whether I will ever respec.
If one is to attempt to look smart by claiming that the OP is logical fallacy, one might at least understand them well enough to know which one it is and one should also be able to recall the correct name for the fallacy....it is the "Red Herring" not the Red Heron ^^.
I believe the fallacy you allude to is "the slippery slope" or "thin end of the wedge", but in this case I believe the OP to have a valid argument based on past behavior of the player base. If I have learned one thing in my short EvE life it is this...
If a feature of the game can be used in a way other than than intended by the devs, it will be, and often. |
Insa Rexion
Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:54:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Karash Amerius Everyone seems to love this...but I really have a gut feeling that CCP is 'jumping the shark' here. If CHA is such a problem, why not just come out with more CHA based skills/gameplay design? Seems like giving up on that is bad form.
Choices should always have consequences...its the core design element in Eve.
(This coming from a very high CHA / WP char...that is PVP based )
this really... while we all discuss how often or whether we should be able to respec, this guy comes out with the PROPER solution.
1 respec only and better CHA based skills....gets my vote
well mannered a**h*** |
Klyde
The Nightshift Rough Necks
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:57:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Klyde on 10/02/2009 20:58:17
ah understand now, well, if they reset attribs and allow us to put say chrisma into others, then there are ppl with the base of 4 or so, plus the skill to take it up another 5, then the advanced to take it up another 5...thats 14 points to put into other attribs (not including the bonus points you get at diff numbers and of course there are those that are chrisma heavy as main with much more points into them at base)...
while it sounds great it certainly would change the speed ppl train and would be over powered to what we are used to. It would have way to much of an impact to the game today. Perhaps if it was a partial restore of attribes...but then you will have those argue about time spent training the skills to max it out and want them back as well...
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shuckstar
Gallente Hauling hogs
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:01:00 -
[76]
Originally by: iudex But being able to redistribute every 6 months changes the whole skill training pattern, which has been a successful core feature of Eve for over 5 years. Now people will max one side for 6 months and then the other in the next 6 months. Everyone will be training everything at maximum speed and efficiency, no diffrence between the industrialist and the combat specialised pilot.
Cant wait for this tbh
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Elise Randolph
Slacker Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:04:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Everyone training everything at the same rate removes diversity.
This is a bad thing.
What is the rationale behind this statement? Let's say I started EVE wanting to build things, and then decided that I liked killing things instead. Would I (a) continue building things because I have really high intelligence and memory or (b) spend an extra 15 days over six months training the same FOTM as everyone else. I, along with any rational being, would go with option (b).
The only difference with attribute redistribution is that I don't get punished for stupidly pigeon-holing myself in the first 20 seconds of the game.
Electronics, Engineering take Intelligence and Memory Most Weapon skills take Willpower and Perception Drones take Memory and Perception Navigation takes Intelligence and Perception
So by OPs logic I'm going to max out Int and Mem to get my core skills up for six months, then I'm going to max out Will and Perc to max my gunnery skills and ship skills, then I'll up Mem, Int, and Perc to get the drone skills and navigation skills - and then after 18 months I'm spec'd out just how I want! I can finally play EVE now! Oh, ****, the stuff I spec'd out for now isn't as good as it was a year and a half ago :(
What you'll actually see is: 70% of people will jack Charisma down and balance the rest of their stats out, 14.9% of fighters will re-spec their chars to build and 14.9% of builders will re-spec their chars to fight, and .2% of low-Charisma Achura will ungimp their Charisma to do leadership skills.
tl;dr: This won't change people's actions, it'll just let them do it a bit faster and feel at ease for not having screwed up in their first 20 seconds. ----------
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:10:00 -
[78]
attribute respect should be available to everyone
Once.
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sirovai
Amarr Modern-Warfare
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:17:00 -
[79]
Keep attribute respec please for the love of God and all that is holy. Even if its just once a year!
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Lord Berk
Amarr Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:18:00 -
[80]
I agree with Rodj and the OP.
Although, this proposed change would greatly benefit one of my characters - for the greater good of the game it must not go through.
This opens a huge can of worms of respeccing and min-maxing. We've all made mistakes in character creation, that's part of the allure of EvE, we love it for being harsh. This is a game that rewards research, planning, patience and execution. Attribute respeccing has no place in the rules we as players currently abide by and begins the game's journey into catering to the WoW crowd.
An industrialist is primarily always an industrialist, as is a combat fighter, as is a CEO. They can do other stuff but it takes them longer. This was the original concept and it was brilliant.
Take a look at an MMO where this can done to the extreme - Guild Wars. Walk into a town, respec whatever you want for free. This takes away a sense of WHO YOU ARE as a character. Your name is irrelevant, all that matters is your build and how it benefits your group.
To also to appeal to CCP's business side, people stay in MMO's because they like their character. Like RL, getting through the hard stuff builds character and makes the end goal that much sweeter.
I'll say this again, we LIKE characters.
We hit Amarr and see the Veldnaught and know things are as they should be. The U'K's neverending war with the Empire, CVA's protection of Providence, the huge power blocs in 0.0, the list goes on. Yes, these things evolve, they change, but they do so naturally and as a result of our actions.
If we are able to respec attributes, in order to remain competitive, this is something everyone must do. If you do not, eventually you will fall behind those who do, because you believe your character is your character, not just a set of numbers.
o7 OP for standing up.
--------------------------------
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Fivefold Forgefire
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:34:00 -
[81]
It's a slippery slope folks, now it's just harmless happy attribute respecs, next thing you know, CCP will allow people to marry animals and outlaw the bible! Just say no! |
Lady Killjoy
Gallente The Social Club The Sovereign Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:35:00 -
[82]
Make it a year cooldown. And maybe limited to twice in a lifetime
Solved |
michaelfeb16
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:52:00 -
[83]
Throwing my support for the OP. Respec every six months is a terrible idea. If this is their plan, they might as well remove attributes and give us all a steady SP/hour rate. I support a one time respec after three months. |
5pinDizzy
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 21:57:00 -
[84]
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 10/02/2009 21:57:11
I suppose the attribute respec sucks for me too when I think about it.
I balanced my attribs as perfectly as I could and was more then happy with them.
Now I'm going to have another chore to do every 6 months.
Take turns in powarbloking two-three attribs every chance to stay competitive with the rest of the playerbase that's going to be doing the same, when my attribs were perfectly fine before this patch was coming along.
Yeah, thx for that CCP. |
Khaan Tar
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Posted - 2009.02.10 22:01:00 -
[85]
So what happened to adopt or die? I guess that only counts when you're at an advantage. I like many others would like to get rid of some unwanted charisma I picked up. |
Yelan Zhou
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 22:06:00 -
[86]
I completly agree with the OP.
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Johnnyan
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Posted - 2009.02.10 22:41:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Johnnyan on 10/02/2009 22:44:46 I too do not agree with all this every six months attributes respec. I dont really care for all those other MMOs but EVE tries to be realistic at some level. There is no freaking explanation of turning 5 memory into 10 memory and after six months doing the opposite thing, for god sake, just think about it, it makes no sense. I agree you should be able to "correct" your starting attributes, lets say once or twice (because most of us didnt really understood them when we started), but every six months ?
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Juwi Kotch
Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.02.10 22:49:00 -
[88]
This is the first step onto the slippery slope so many originally good or not to bad MMOGs (UO, Starwars, etc) died on: Dumbing down the game.
I don't like that.
Juwi Kotch
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bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.02.10 22:56:00 -
[89]
Edited by: bff Jill on 10/02/2009 22:56:23
Originally by: Khaan Tar So what happened to adopt or die? I guess that only counts when you're at an advantage. I like many others would like to get rid of some unwanted charisma I picked up.
Nobody is saying you shouldnt get a respec.
We are saying you should not get a respec every 6 months.
Dont you understand? Your charisma, your atributes, they wont matter anymore! With infinite respecs you just respec to stack one set of atributes every 6 months and train only skills that coraspond to those attributes! Everyone will be training at maximum speed with every skill. Theres no point to even have atributes anymore.
In effect all these infinite respecs will do is LIMIT your choices because you will now be discouraged from training a skill if its atributes are currently not the ones you have maxed out.
One respec = helps make the game nicer Infinity respecs = just makes the game more tedious by forcing you to plan your skill training around which attributes you will have maxed at what time.
Its a bad idea and the only people who think otherwise do not have the experience/perception to understand how this will change the entire way people train their characters, to somthing thats worse than it is now. ESPECIALLY for new players!!
ive not played mmos in the past after finding out they had stupidly tedious training systems. The screwy kind where you have to do everything in a certain order else your character gets gimped. And that is exactly what this will turn eve into.
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Wu Jiaqiu
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:03:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Wu Jiaqiu on 10/02/2009 23:05:44 I messed up a while ago with my training points, I wouldnt mind being able to change the attributes. Once every 6 months is bad, once a year or just once is good.
EDIT: Changed my mind
Maybe two respecs per character, and one year cooldown in between.
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Punctator
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:09:00 -
[91]
niece change in my opinion maybye ccp think for adding another level, or even two for each skill. we have one life ;) - faster sp are good.
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bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:19:00 -
[92]
Edited by: bff Jill on 10/02/2009 23:19:29
Originally by: Punctator niece change in my opinion maybye ccp think for adding another level, or even two for each skill. we have one life ;) - faster sp are good.
so you think that its a good idea that now, in addition to being 'strongly encouraged' to train learning skills first, that new players will also be forced to spec 15int/9mem/5/5/5 for the first 6 months to train up fitting skills quickly, before they even bother training any spaceship command/gunnery skills?
The game is already too much of a 'new characters sit in station for several month' game, this is not helping, while it does i guess shorten the time it takes to get to a multi-year character goal, it more or less makes it even LESS of a good idea to train 'just enough to do stuff' to keep you occupied before you go into the SP waiting game.
Any new player reading this, this is what you HAVE to do:
Roll an achura now with maxed int and memory skills. Train all basic learning skills up, train all fitting skills and drone skills (train the advanced int and mem up also)
Once you get all your fitting/drone skills that you will EVER WANT TO TRAIN (except ones that you can wait a year or so before you mess with, such as certain skills to 5 that you dont need at 5 and are good enough at 4)... respec to 15 perc 9 will to triain up all gunnery/spaceship command/missile skills you will ever want. Go ahead and get all the battleship 5s you want, any t2 ships you want, that sort of thing.
Once that's all done either respec to 15 cha 9 will and get leadership skills up or whatever, or just finish off those int/mem skills.
After ~8 months of training you may undock.
You MUST do this, RIGHT NOW! Enjoy eve.
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:21:00 -
[93]
OP exaggerates a bit re the skill system - but I otherwise agree.
It's ok to allow noobs to fix some early mistakes when they don't know how things work and what they want.
But make it a once-only change.
Otherwise the attributes just become meaningless. If a regular respec is possible it's easier to just replace them with a constant in the training formula.
But attributes give chars a bit if individualization. So keep the attributes and keep 'em fixed. Versatility comes from the skill selection. And here everybody has full choice already. You can re-specialize into a new area any time you want.
Also - allowing re-allocation of attributes only opens the ultimate can of worms - re-allocating SPs. shudder.
Or. If this feature just has to stay in to shut up the lamers who keep asking for attribute re-spec - make it a very gradual thing. Allow the transfer of a single point every few months (3-6 - or 2-4 times a year). That would also make more sense immersion-wise.
I'm trying hard to be constructive :-) - I hate the whole idea. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE |
5pinDizzy
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 23:22:00 -
[94]
Originally by: bff Jill Edited by: bff Jill on 10/02/2009 22:56:23
Originally by: Khaan Tar So what happened to adopt or die? I guess that only counts when you're at an advantage. I like many others would like to get rid of some unwanted charisma I picked up.
Nobody is saying you shouldnt get a respec.
We are saying you should not get a respec every 6 months.
Dont you understand? Your charisma, your atributes, they wont matter anymore! With infinite respecs you just respec to stack one set of atributes every 6 months and train only skills that coraspond to those attributes! Everyone will be training at maximum speed with every skill. Theres no point to even have atributes anymore.
In effect all these infinite respecs will do is LIMIT your choices because you will now be discouraged from training a skill if its atributes are currently not the ones you have maxed out.
One respec = helps make the game nicer Infinity respecs = just makes the game more tedious by forcing you to plan your skill training around which attributes you will have maxed at what time.
Its a bad idea and the only people who think otherwise do not have the experience/perception to understand how this will change the entire way people train their characters, to somthing thats worse than it is now. ESPECIALLY for new players!!
ive not played mmos in the past after finding out they had stupidly tedious training systems. The screwy kind where you have to do everything in a certain order else your character gets gimped. And that is exactly what this will turn eve into.
Sadly, QFT.
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Amy Wang
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:25:00 -
[95]
kinda agree, imho give old players a one time attribute rearrangement and freshly made characters two (of which the first one needs to be used within the first 1.6m sp or it is forfeit, the second one on the other hand cant be used before a couple month subscription time though)
this respec every 6 month is not such a great idea really
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Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:28:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Amy Wang kinda agree, imho give old players a one time attribute rearrangement and freshly made characters two (of which the first one needs to be used within the first 1.6m sp or it is forfeit, the second one on the other hand cant be used before a couple month subscription time though)
this respec every 6 month is not such a great idea really
sound like a good idea ... im not 100% though |
Alora Venoda
GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:28:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Juwi Kotch This is the first step onto the slippery slope so many originally good or not to bad MMOGs (UO, Starwars, etc) died on: Dumbing down the game.
I don't like that.
Juwi Kotch
"good" is a relative term. some may say that "old-school" game mechanics were too harsh, which kept them out of the game until it was dumbed down. there is a different between "depth" and "complexity". there is a difference between "stupidly annoying" and "harsh".
when such changes are made that appear to "dumb down" the game, often they are actually just making it more convenient. but when this includes changes to the game mechanics, the veterans start complaining "you noobs have it so easy now days... back when i was a noob... blah blah... 15 miles in the snow uphill while barefoot."
the fact of the matter is that these changes make the game more enjoyable for everyone, but it's human nature to feel like the "more challenging" times (ie- less fun, more annoying) were "better" for some reason. this is most likely because we take pride in overcoming those challenges, where the new players don't even have the opportunity to do so. and once things are easier, we may feel like our accomplishments of the past are no longer meaningful or appreciated. we may find ourselves thinking, "dang if i just waited to start playing, i could have had it easy!"
on the flip side, some changes that "dumb down" some games really do ruin the experience. it could make the game "too easy" or "less fun"... to consider this, we must examine the impact on the game from the view of a new player and not a veteran.
as for the attribute respec, i think it's long overdue, and makes the game "less annoying" for everyone. in fact, because of the old ways, there's far more Caldari (esp Achura) characters than most other races and bloodlines. with the new system, players will be more free to select whatever race they want...
does anyone actually enjoy being stuck with whatever attributes we picked as noobs? no! more likely, we just resent the fact that we have come this far already and don't get a do-over...
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:29:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 10/02/2009 23:34:58 Either limit it to once per lifetime or 1 point per half year OR:
go one step further - enable respec every day ! No more skilling problems, bad attribs. Everytime you want new skills you will train em with max speed! But then why do we need attribs system?
Seriously CCP - in current implementation this is another ******ed idea you have there. Or just say you want to make game accessible for the masses and CTRL+C, CTRL+V WOW ideas - Warhammer did this and it worked, you can do same... meh.
EDIT: and yea im one of chars that needs to respec (4 PER base) but if its no respec at all or full respec per 6 months id prefer to have no respec and bite it with 4 per. |
bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:36:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Alora Venoda
Originally by: Juwi Kotch This is the first step onto the slippery slope so many originally good or not to bad MMOGs (UO, Starwars, etc) died on: Dumbing down the game.
I don't like that.
Juwi Kotch
"good" is a relative term. some may say that "old-school" game mechanics were too harsh, which kept them out of the game until it was dumbed down. there is a different between "depth" and "complexity". there is a difference between "stupidly annoying" and "harsh".
when such changes are made that appear to "dumb down" the game, often they are actually just making it more convenient. but when this includes changes to the game mechanics, the veterans start complaining "you noobs have it so easy now days... back when i was a noob... blah blah... 15 miles in the snow uphill while barefoot."
the fact of the matter is that these changes make the game more enjoyable for everyone, but it's human nature to feel like the "more challenging" times (ie- less fun, more annoying) were "better" for some reason. this is most likely because we take pride in overcoming those challenges, where the new players don't even have the opportunity to do so. and once things are easier, we may feel like our accomplishments of the past are no longer meaningful or appreciated. we may find ourselves thinking, "dang if i just waited to start playing, i could have had it easy!"
on the flip side, some changes that "dumb down" some games really do ruin the experience. it could make the game "too easy" or "less fun"... to consider this, we must examine the impact on the game from the view of a new player and not a veteran.
as for the attribute respec, i think it's long overdue, and makes the game "less annoying" for everyone. in fact, because of the old ways, there's far more Caldari (esp Achura) characters than most other races and bloodlines. with the new system, players will be more free to select whatever race they want...
does anyone actually enjoy being stuck with whatever attributes we picked as noobs? no! more likely, we just resent the fact that we have come this far already and don't get a do-over...
You are another person commenting on this with out seeing the problem. I hope your kind does not drive CCP to think they are making a good choice.
Nobody is saying you shouldn't be able to fix your broken atributes. But do you REALLY think the game will be more fun when people (ESPECIALLY NEW PLAYERS) have to plan their entire skill training strategy around 6 month attribute cycles?
Okay! ive just respeced, only training up int/mem skills for the next 6 months, whoo! Whats that? oops, i would like to train randomcruiser5 because i think it would be neat to check out insertT2cruiserhere, Oh well, ill do it in 6 months when i respec back to perc/will.
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Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:55:00 -
[100]
these replys are to long
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bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.02.11 00:43:00 -
[101]
Edited by: bff Jill on 11/02/2009 00:43:19 Also making it take longer than 6 months is not a solution because it will just make it even MORE annoying to do the min/maxing that we must all do.
But go ahead CCP, do this. You better not change your mind now ive already planned my new system exploiting mining alt around this fabulous mechanic!
I hate to tell you that newbies who want to be combat characters however will probably never become longterm subscribers, it would just be too maddening having to train up many perc based and int based skills early on (after learning as well). You just cant respec fast enough for this sort of gameplay as a combat character.
Carebears though will get a huge boost
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Dani SP
Rupture Farms Mining
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Posted - 2009.02.11 00:51:00 -
[102]
make it like this:
- 1st time: free - 2nd and sucesive times: 30Ç/$ or 2bil ISK
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Khlitouris RegusII
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Posted - 2009.02.11 00:52:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Nova Fox but seriously 20 years for every skill in eve is little rediciolose atm,
And how long does it take you to get a single character with the abilities of all classes at max level in WoW or any other MMO?
couple of weeks if you use the buddy program.
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Fury1980
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.11 00:58:00 -
[104]
Simple solution..
If you dont like it....dont touch it...no one is making you respec ure attributes every 6 months are they ??
personally all fairness went out the windows with the new bloodlines and the fact now day new toons start with ~1 mill sp..
all fairness went out the window when they nerfed nos, when they nerfed speed (something people have specialized in since the games inception) and the million other things CCP have kicked i nthe teeth over the years....(hopefully falcon will be next)
if ya play ya cards right..degree of seperation will remain a constant and use the char. attrib respec system with any degree of forthought.
this thread is tastes like fail-burgerÖ
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Alora Venoda
GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.11 01:29:00 -
[105]
Originally by: bff Jill
You are another person commenting on this with out seeing the problem. I hope your kind does not drive CCP to think they are making a good choice.
Nobody is saying you shouldn't be able to fix your broken atributes. But do you REALLY think the game will be more fun when people (ESPECIALLY NEW PLAYERS) have to plan their entire skill training strategy around 6 month attribute cycles?
Okay! ive just respeced, only training up int/mem skills for the next 6 months, whoo! Whats that? oops, i would like to train randomcruiser5 because i think it would be neat to check out insertT2cruiserhere, Oh well, ill do it in 6 months when i respec back to perc/will.
you forgot to mention that all new players ARE REQUIRED to sell GTC's and buy expensive implants to boost their training speed to the max...
most new players usually don't even understand the skills and attributes enough to min-max their skill training as you describe. most new players i meet don't really care that much about it either. besides, CCP has stated that new players get an extra free repsec anyway. so if after 2 months they want to switch from mining to combat, they can do so easily.
besides, do you actually believe any new player would setup a skill plan so one-dimensional that it would be utterly painful to train an unplanned skill? just to get the basics they will do best with an even spread - especially since they will start with much fewer skills than the current 800k. maybe CCP is giving them the free extra respec to allow them to specialize after training most of the basics?
and even if someone does max out their int/mem and then want to train some combat skill, the "wasted time" will not be significant until level 4 or 5, which are hardly required to "try it out". and even if they do decide to wait up to 6 months to respec to train for that HAC or whatever, it would still be better than completely re-rolling their character, or starting an alt on the same account.
and for us veterans, this is great for both our alts and our mains... alts can be even more specialized, and their race no longer matters. and our mains can now specialize too and train battleship 5 much faster, or even switch careers, etc.
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bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.02.11 01:45:00 -
[106]
Edited by: bff Jill on 11/02/2009 01:46:04
Originally by: Alora Venoda
you forgot to mention that all new players ARE REQUIRED to sell GTC's and buy expensive implants to boost their training speed to the max...
Considering how easy it is to do now, yes. An extra $15 could save you several weeks of time. Thats a good deal considering that people spend months training learning skills just to get a few months of effective 'extra time' after a couple years have passed.
Quote:
most new players usually don't even understand the skills and attributes enough to min-max their skill training as you describe.
Just like lots of people have screwed up attributes because they did not take the time to learn things before they started. That doesn't matter however because they will find out sooner or later, and someone so careless to not actually take interest in their character will probably quit eve of boredom after a month or so anyway.
Quote:
most new players i meet don't really care that much about it either. besides, CCP has stated that new players get an extra free repsec anyway. so if after 2 months they want to switch from mining to combat, they can do so easily.
An extra free one? With no time limit? Great, i can exploit the system even more efficiently with my new mining alt i have planned ^__^
Quote:
besides, do you actually believe any new player would setup a skill plan so one-dimensional that it would be utterly painful to train an unplanned skill?
yes, I and many other people who are experienced with the reality of mmos and not just some random wide eyed newbie running around doing random things because its fun do strive for efficiency of character progression and purpose.
Quote:
just to get the basics they will do best with an even spread - especially since they will start with much fewer skills than the current 800k.
They will probably lose an effective month or so of training time by using an even spread, even if its just to 'get the basics' done.
Quote:
maybe CCP is giving them the free extra respec to allow them to specialize after training most of the basics?
This would make starting up a new combat pilot easier. It does nothing about the long term effect of more or less removing the importance of atributes entierly because everyone sensible will plan their skill trianing around respecs. You can not argue this point, dont even try. There are many mmos that give unlimited respecs of various kinds and people ALWAYS end up planning their character progression around them. The only difference in eve is that its more annoying to do so. People do annoying things in mmos that they probably don't want to all the time. By including additional tedium you are forcing people to chose between either doing it or quitting.
Quote:
and even if someone does max out their int/mem and then want to train some combat skill, the "wasted time" will not be significant until level 4 or 5,
Per skill, but this is a trap, you could waste plenty of time training up 'fast' skills with suboptimal stat spread. The difference between 5 minutes and 8 minutes for level 1 may not seem like much, but its huge if you are training up dozens of skills to level3/4
Quote:
and for us veterans, this is great for both our alts and our mains... alts can be even more specialized, and their race no longer matters. and our mains can now specialize too and train battleship 5 much faster, or even switch careers, etc.
Yes, its great for veterans. Horrible for new players.
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soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Horsemen of Apocalypse
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Posted - 2009.02.11 02:25:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Great change is great, quit whining about a feature that enables you to make up for mistakes made in the first 3 mins of playing.
i think im going to have to agree with him, there ARE people like me who screw up, well, badly, kinda like me, i attributed my character for spaceship command because i wanted to fight, so i focused mainly on Perception and Intelligence
now, it takes ages to train for weapons which require MEMORY and willpower, of which i have precious little to use up
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Doppleganger
Minmatar Libera Mentem Tuam
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Posted - 2009.02.11 04:53:00 -
[108]
I think they should let everyone respec once and then 6 months later change about 80% of the skills in game to use charisma as the primary training attrib to teach a lesson.
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bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.02.11 05:08:00 -
[109]
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Great change is great, quit whining about a feature that enables you to make up for mistakes made in the first 3 mins of playing.
i think im going to have to agree with him, there ARE people like me who screw up, well, badly, kinda like me, i attributed my character for spaceship command because i wanted to fight, so i focused mainly on Perception and Intelligence
now, it takes ages to train for weapons which require MEMORY and willpower, of which i have precious little to use up
a 1 time respec would fix this with out drastically changning the way you train skills.
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Florio
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2009.02.11 05:43:00 -
[110]
shock horror, there's almost a consensus on an eve-o forum! it's like we care about our game or something! *wipes away a tear*
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Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.11 06:23:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Fury1980 Simple solution..
If you dont like it....dont touch it...no one is making you respec ure attributes every 6 months are they ??
personally all fairness went out the windows with the new bloodlines and the fact now day new toons start with ~1 mill sp..
all fairness went out the window when they nerfed nos, when they nerfed speed (something people have specialized in since the games inception) and the million other things CCP have kicked i nthe teeth over the years....(hopefully falcon will be next)
if ya play ya cards right..degree of seperation will remain a constant and use the char. attrib respec system with any degree of forthought.
this thread is tastes like fail-burgerÖ
Stupidest post ever tbfh.
This will just make attribute respecs "EXACTLY" like the learning skills.. something that has a consensus of "mandatory" to actually compete.. every single person will have to play the respec cycle game to not fall behind other players. So for some reason we want learning skills gone because they're "mandatory" and a waste of time and effort.. and want to replace them with another system that will cause the exact same problems.. i agree with a single respec per characters lifetime to fix beginner mistakes and then just be done with it. 6 Month respecs will get abused and will force "everyone" to respec every 6 months. |
Coronae Borealis
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Posted - 2009.02.11 06:29:00 -
[112]
Originally by: iudex First of all it's a good thing that you listen to your players, people have been asking for a chance to correct their beginners mistakes for years. You try to do things better than people ask, in order to make it awesome, but in this case you overdone it a little bit.
It is perfectly fine to give people the chance for a once-in-a-lifetime redistribution of attributes, that can be done earliest after e.g. 3 months of game-time, so that people make this decision in a moment where they can properly estimate the consequences.
But being able to redistribute every 6 months changes the whole skill training pattern, which has been a successful core feature of Eve for over 5 years. Now people will max one side for 6 months and then the other in the next 6 months. Everyone will be training everything at maximum speed and efficiency, no diffrence between the industrialist and the combat specialised pilot.
It's a little bit like in Starwars Galaxies:NGE, where your initial choice of your pathway doesn't matter, this arbitrariness isn't necessarily better. It also reduces the necessity of specialised alts (e.g. industry alts for combat pilots) and might even cost you subscriptions, since it will be much easer to re-spec and train the missing skill-trees. Eve will definitely lose something, if you introduce this the way it is now planned, and there's no way back once you introduce it, so please reconsider this feature again.
OP is wrong.
Think about caldari achura. 3 points of charisma as for start, then you get maximum of 18 with all learnings 5 and +5 implants. While maximum charisma attribute is somewhere around 29 or 31.
Off course CCP doesn't let you rearrange those attributes like you are thinking.
What will eve loose is that not every damn miner is achura anymore. With this even khanid cyberknight can learn something else than trading skills.
It gives more colour to the new edens population.
Now there is certain starting races and bloodlines wich are WAY TOO MUCH USED!
And one more time. You cant stack the attributes like you want, there are certain limits. Like I said, achura will never be learning charisma related skills with maxed out speed, but much better than now.
This will be great for the game and take off the useless load from certain starter corporations to others. |
Coronae Borealis
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Posted - 2009.02.11 06:32:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Coronae Borealis on 11/02/2009 06:32:38 And I need to add that OP is also wrong in this.. Your initial pathway NEVER has been matter in EVE. If I choose a industry out of the box character and start training military skills - it's already ruined.
If choosing certain bloodline would give bonuses to actual game play - then it would be like in that boring nge. But not in eve where you can turn ANY character to miner or combat pilot, and it's always been like that. |
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.02.11 06:56:00 -
[114]
nope... my two +5imps still make me learn faster than most of my 0.0 environment. granted, they will be worth less since that one or two extra point makes less of a difference up in the thirties than in the twenties, but i'm SP-greedy. but same can be said about learning skills: i'm sure some will skip perfecting the basic five learning skills when it takes ~30 times as long to pay off (like... 600days... for all five skills?) |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.02.11 07:04:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 11/02/2009 07:04:42 If someone believes that a skill-redistribution will kill the diversity of EVE, i think you'll find yourself sadly mistaken of what makes EVE diverse, namely taste.
Taste in battle, taste in industry, taste in trading, hauling or even in some perverse cases, taste for mining(Yes i'm looking at you Chribba ).
Just because someone CAN train mining 2 days faster with this, doesn't mean they WILL, because honest to gods truth...not everyone wants to.
EVE is made diverse due to people being diverse, not due to the training system giving the ability. You could ALWAYS train ANYTHING and the two day/three day/week shorter time to do it won't change the fact, you don't want to.
Now hand over /thread and back off! |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 07:07:00 -
[116]
I personally love this new feature and hope it makes it through as is. |
Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.11 08:00:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Marius Deterium One of the big advantages of Eve is to not be tied to some archtype. If you need DPS, get in a DPS ship, if you need tank, get in a tank ship. If you need reps, get in a RR ship.
Attribute respec just enhances this.
Everyone training everything at the same rate removes diversity.
This is a bad thing.
Everybody can already train anything. Still characters tend to turn out different. And 6 months is long time to train only say int/mem or perc/will skills. So in my opinion it is good change. I started as miner and this has not stopped me training mostly combat skills for past few years after I got utterly bored of mining. Now I will have ability to redistribute my points into the area where I have trained for past few years and will most likely keep training few more. |
Omu Negru
Caldari Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.11 08:07:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Omu Negru on 11/02/2009 08:08:44 I dont know why ppl moan about this feature. In the first place if you have a good seted char for pvp for ex you dont have reasons to change the atributes ever. Maybe just once at the beggining.
So there is no point of changing atributes every 6 months just if you train for industrial skills a pvp char or viceversa.
It is good for one of my chars for exemple with huge charisma, int and memory. 53mil pvp char. At last I can change the atributes for what this char must do. I will change them once and for good.
Cut the crap and get a life.
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Kaivos
Caldari Pyydys
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Posted - 2009.02.11 08:09:00 -
[119]
I think the OP is over worried about this. At best this is going to cut day or two here and there.
When I started this char. I wanted to train industrial skills. Now I have almost all of those skills that I want from that area. So now I am training mission running skills. And guess how well it goes with low perception.
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Dari Anoh
Amarr Anoh Shavar
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Posted - 2009.02.11 08:33:00 -
[120]
As opposed to the majority of people that have posted in this thread, I quite like this feature for several reasons.
Characters in EVE aren't like classes in World of Warcraft. You may start out thinking you'd like to become a miner, but you don't roll an alt whenever you'd like to do something other than mining. EVE players change career paths now and then, and this feature can help with that: it prevents people being punished for choices they've made in the past. And not just in those first 3 minutes of gameplay either. To me, that's a good thing.
I think the 6 month cooldown strikes a nice balance. On one hand, it's long enough that people are forced to think about what they do because they'll have to live with the consequences for the next six months, but it's also short enough that you won't start pulling your hair out the moment you decide to go explore another aspect of EVE and want the skills to match.
In addition, I believe the current total training time of all skills is around 20 years or so. Is it really so bad that we'll be able to gain some terrain in that department and benefit from a little bit of faster training? I don't think it is.
And last but not least, this feature makes the different races and bloodlines more feasible as starter characters, as there is no longer a burning need to roll an Achura for those 'perfect stats', which should provide more diversity. To me, that's also a good thing. |
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Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
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Posted - 2009.02.11 08:49:00 -
[121]
I don't think I like the periodic nature of it. Once or twice I can understand, to make up for those mistakes, but it seems like this is just going to lead to people putting it all in int/mem/char for 6 months, training gang and industry skills, then put it all in perc/will, train 6 months of combat skills, rinse and repeat over and over.
Players should have to make some basic decisions on whether they want to skew more toward fighting, industry, or corp-level stuff. _________________ [IMAGE REMOVED] -- aka Cpt Bogus -- Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.11 08:57:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Dari Anoh
In addition, I believe the current total training time of all skills is around 20 years or so. Is it really so bad that we'll be able to gain some terrain in that department and benefit from a little bit of faster training? I don't think it is.
You are stupid. And even hinting that people should train faster because to train ALL skills to lv5 takes 20 years makes your whole post not credible.
The problem is min-maxing, FOTM or call it whatever. New char created? Wait for skill ques for next 6 months when you respec and get skill que for next 6 months. Removes all individuality, when every character can be exactly the same.
Also CCP fights against FOTM or overusing one thing (particular ship types/setups) and moment later puts system which promotes doing so and training for FOTM stuff.
I say it again: 1-2 point respec per year is enough to slowly drift away from buggered attribs. Or once-per-lifetime respec (lets say after 3-6 months from creating char so you dont screw yourself over as a newb). 6 month times is WAY too short because it enables you to respec after every expansion thus training everything expansion has to offer fast.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:01:00 -
[123]
Achuras whining about atributes change are so sweet :D
60D GTC - shattared link |
Tobin Arkon
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:02:00 -
[124]
I think everyone is overlooking one very important fact about Eve, feel free to brush me off because I've only played for one week vs. fifty...but...
Eve is a game...that we all play...for fun....
There...I said it
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:03:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Tobin Arkon I think everyone is overlooking one very important fact about Eve, feel free to brush me off because I've only played for one week vs. fifty...but...
Eve is a game...that we all play...for fun....
There...I said it
So why dont we get "max all skills" button? Its even easier.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:10:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Kaivos I think the OP is over worried about this. At best this is going to cut day or two here and there.
Uhm. No.
"A day here and there" is what you get when you change from +3 to +4 implants. Playing around with this feature would allow me to cut a 210-day charisma-based skill queue down to 140 days… That's a third less. Granted, since I accidentally picked an Achura, I may be an edge case, but that gives you a feel for the scope of the problem.
Add to this the vastly increased emphasis on learning skills that come with the new NPE, and things are starting to look very bad indeed… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Levistus Junior
Caldari The Perfect Storm Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:12:00 -
[127]
I personally think that periodical respecs are wrong.
Of course, not many new players will have the patience to respec 15/9/5/5/5 and train only a certain type of skills, but for older players, that have the base already laid down it will be no big deal to do that. So IMHO this will increase the SP gap between the older and newer players, since the former have a much easier time taking advantage of a focused set of attributes.
Secondly, what's the point of having chosen a bloodline if it's stats become completely irrelevant?
I'd be more than ok with a one-time (maybe twice) respec, ideally only the 5 stat points that you could distribute during character creation as to keep race/bloodline identities, but I could work with the current system if it was a one-time thing.
Just my 2 cents on the matter.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:13:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Levistus Junior
I'd be more than ok with a one-time (maybe twice) respec, ideally only the 5 stat points that you could distribute during character creation as to keep race/bloodline identities, but I could work with the current system if it was a one-time thing.
Just my 2 cents on the matter.
And this is best idea of them all tbh. Small changes not massive overhaul. CCP, you still didnt fix lots of stuff from previous "not pre-nerfed" systems.
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teoliit
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:21:00 -
[129]
Edited by: teoliit on 11/02/2009 09:24:07 For all the talking people do about how hardcore the game is there sure are a lot of whiny b****es in the community
No one is forcing you to minmax your stats, and guess what: you'll be fine even if you don't. You're fine even if you don't get the learning skills too
It would be better though if they just removed attributes and just had faster training from items
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Tobin Arkon
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:30:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Tobin Arkon I think everyone is overlooking one very important fact about Eve, feel free to brush me off because I've only played for one week vs. fifty...but...
Eve is a game...that we all play...for fun....
There...I said it
So why dont we get "max all skills" button? Its even easier.
Because then it wouldn't be a game, it'd be a simulator I don't think it's a good Idea to punish your player base because they didn't know what they were doing the first 3min of their Eve life. And lets be honest here, at the end of the day it STILL comes down to player skill and not stat skills. So instead of having to wait until Friday to blow up a noob in his new cruiser you get to do it on Wednesday now. Those folks that have been playing for months and years will still have a great advantage.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:38:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Tobin Arkon I don't think it's a good Idea to punish your player base because they didn't know what they were doing the first 3min of their Eve life.
So a one-time respec within the first 6 months is all we need.
…and more immediate and truthfull instruction on what the attributes do at character creation. …and less emphasis on learning skills than what the double-speed early learning will bring. |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:51:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Coronae Borealis OP is wrong.
Think about caldari achura. 3 points of charisma as for start, then you get maximum of 18 with all learnings 5 and +5 implants. While maximum charisma attribute is somewhere around 29 or 31.
Off course CCP doesn't let you rearrange those attributes like you are thinking.
What will eve loose is that not every damn miner is achura anymore. With this even khanid cyberknight can learn something else than trading skills.
So where exactly is the OP wrong ? Did you read it actually ? It agrees that a one time respec is good. Also you are wrong on the achura, it has 19 charisma with maxed skills and implants. That miners chose Achura is a ******ed assumption, noone claimed that except you.
Originally by: Coronae Borealis Edited by: Coronae Borealis on 11/02/2009 06:32:38 And I need to add that OP is also wrong in this.. Your initial pathway NEVER has been matter in EVE. If I choose a industry out of the box character and start training military skills - it's already ruined.
If choosing certain bloodline would give bonuses to actual game play - then it would be like in that boring nge. But not in eve where you can turn ANY character to miner or combat pilot, and it's always been like that.
You contradict yourself in the first sentence. If it's "already ruined", then how can you say the initial pathway NEVER mattered in EVE ? You have to understand that the pathway in Eve is not the bloodline but the attribute setup. Only this decides if you are about to become a indusry/trading/mining oriented player or a combat pilot. For this decision the attribute selection mattered before, it will not matter anymore thereafter because of the possibility to change them every 6 months.
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Dari Anoh
Amarr Anoh Shavar
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:52:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire You are stupid.
I am a little, yes. I still have that silly expectation that people will actually read other people's posts, think about them and then explain their own point of view in a mature and constructive way. You know, what you're doing right here. *cough*
Originally by: Deva Blackfire And even hinting that people should train faster because to train ALL skills to lv5 takes 20 years makes your whole post not credible.
Right. Because if you don't agree with one point raised in someone's post, it immediately makes the other ones invalid and you can safely ignore them. Which is much easier than providing counter arguments to the other points raised, let alone admitting someone might be right about something that conflicts with the case you're trying to make. It must be wonderful living in your black and white world where there's no room for anyone's opinion but your own.
I've merely mentioned this to illustrate there are a lot of possible skills to learn, and the number of skills is only increasing. I'm not suggesting everyone is going to learn all of those, nor am I suggesting we should train faster. I'm just pointing out with the wide variety available, I don't think it's a bad thing we'll be able to speed things up a little bit here and there and cover that little bit more ground depending on the choices we make.
Seeing as I'm fairly certain you'll respond in the same constructive manner should I voice my opinion about your other statements, I'll save myself some time and simply "say it again" too: Nice feature CCP, looking forward to it.
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Digital Solaris
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Posted - 2009.02.11 10:04:00 -
[134]
I do agree with the OP that this looks like a NGE feature. But it boggles my mind as to why some people are finding it to be contributing factor to dumbing the game down?
It is not going to affect the game in any way than how spent attribute points can be redone twice a year and how much faster skills might finish. Plus if you don't want to use it, then don't.
How is that suddenly a bad thing for anyone playing EVE?
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Geralttrade
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Posted - 2009.02.11 10:14:00 -
[135]
Well I just added it all up all possible combinations of stats that you can start with and I came up with this: Race BloodlineAncestoryPercIntMemWilChaTotal Caldari AchuraInvent71266334 Caldari AchuraStargaz8896334 Caldari AchuraMink9868334 Amarr KhanidCyberkn11648534 Caldari DetisScienti61075634 Minmatar SebiestorTinker51166634 Amarr NikunniBurdrun10664834 Minmatar SebiestorRebel8767634 Caldari CivireEntrep9586634 Minmatar VherokiorDrifter6983834 Minmatar BrutorSlave11449634 Gallente GallenteImigr10646834 Gallente Jin-MeiJing Ko10557734 Caldari DetisMercha57115634 Minmatar BrutorWorker9487634 Gallente GallenteMiner8684834 Amarr KhanidUnion8748734 Amarr KhanidZealot85610534 Caldari CivireMerc95410634 Amarr AmarrWealthy47910434 Gallente IntakiReborn38116634 Gallente Jin-MeiSaan Go6777734 Amarr AmarrRelig47614334 Caldari DetisTubech5779634 Gallente IntakiArtist5876834 Caldari CivireDisse9548834 Minmatar BrutorTribal94410734 Minmatar VherokiorMystic4886834 Minmatar VherokiorRetail47113934 Amarr NikunniNavyvet7568834 Amarr AmarrLiberal47611634 Gallente GallenteActivis86441234 Minmatar SebiestorTrader57661034 Gallente Jin-MeiSang Do65510834 Gallente IntakiDiplom38761034 Amarr NikunniFrmmerc75641234
There we go... everyone starts off with a total of 34 points... in the end if everyone exploits it it makes no difference :p |
Aenigma
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Posted - 2009.02.11 10:15:00 -
[136]
I think it's a very good idea. I started out with 3 base perception, because I was a noob back in 2004 and thought I didn't need perception. By the time I regretted that, I already had too much SP to restart.
I say it should be allowed once every two years. Six months cooldown is rather short, and might lead to people actively minmaxing. I think two years of cooldown is a bit too long to practically plan for maximizing efficiency, and that would make it just fine.
A once in a lifetime option would be a good option as well.
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Nguyen VanPhuoc
Minmatar The Halibuts
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Posted - 2009.02.11 10:28:00 -
[137]
i love the respec, once every six months is perfect ___________________ MAXimum CAOD!
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Turix
Interstellar eXodus Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 10:29:00 -
[138]
Personally i feel 6 months is far far too short and as many people have said pretty much negates the points of attributes all together.
I think that a one off respec per character would be sufficent to allow people the chance to fix issues they made when they were a noob, but every 6 months completely changes the mechanics of skill training.
Maybe a longer time frame? Once a year? 18 Months or even 2 years? __________________________
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 10:35:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Digital Solaris I do agree with the OP that this looks like a NGE feature. But it boggles my mind as to why some people are finding it to be contributing factor to dumbing the game down?
It is not going to affect the game in any way than how spent attribute points can be redone twice a year and how much faster skills might finish. Plus if you don't want to use it, then don't.
How is that suddenly a bad thing for anyone playing EVE?
Because it increases the gap between new and old players while claiming to do the opposite perhaps?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Si Raven
Raven's Toy Production
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Posted - 2009.02.11 10:40:00 -
[140]
I think the number of points that can be changed is excessive.
On the test server, I have Per 19 with a +3 implant. I can increase that to 30 for only 5M isk! I have another character with a +4 implant. That character can reach 31 Per.
Now, you all know what I'm doing when this goes live! |
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 10:44:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Si Raven I think the number of points that can be changed is excessive.
On the test server, I have Per 19 with a +3 implant. I can increase that to 30 for only 5M isk! I have another character with a +4 implant. That character can reach 31 Per.
Now, you all know what I'm doing when this goes live!
Exactly my point!
You'll be maxing out your Perc when training Perc skills - and so will everyone else but the noobs.
Won't somebody think of the noobs? |
Sida Hurra
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.11 10:57:00 -
[142]
just for mentioning SWG NGE he should be hit by a 16 wheeler bus full of stuffed carebears.
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Sida Hurra
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.11 10:59:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Si Raven I think the number of points that can be changed is excessive.
On the test server, I have Per 19 with a +3 implant. I can increase that to 30 for only 5M isk! I have another character with a +4 implant. That character can reach 31 Per.
Now, you all know what I'm doing when this goes live!
Exactly my point!
You'll be maxing out your Perc when training Perc skills - and so will everyone else but the noobs.
Won't somebody think of the noobs?
it's not what you want it's what the mass wants. So just stop fighting it. Serioucely it's not 2005, 5mil is nothing nowadays.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:05:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Sida Hurra
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Si Raven I think the number of points that can be changed is excessive.
On the test server, I have Per 19 with a +3 implant. I can increase that to 30 for only 5M isk! I have another character with a +4 implant. That character can reach 31 Per.
Now, you all know what I'm doing when this goes live!
Exactly my point!
You'll be maxing out your Perc when training Perc skills - and so will everyone else but the noobs.
Won't somebody think of the noobs?
it's not what you want it's what the mass wants. So just stop fighting it. Serioucely it's not 2005, 5mil is nothing nowadays.
The mass of people enjoy listening to Girls Aloud.
Does that make them incredibly talented?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Johnny Gurkha
Death Cult Covenant
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:05:00 -
[145]
CCP are catering to the whiners once again...
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:10:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Sida Hurra
Originally by: Rodj Blake
You'll be maxing out your Perc when training Perc skills - and so will everyone else but the noobs.
Won't somebody think of the noobs?
it's not what you want it's what the mass wants. So just stop fighting it. Serioucely it's not 2005, 5mil is nothing nowadays.
The mass wants some kind of stat redistribute system, but are iffy about the current implementation. I would like a system that maintained the race/bloodline limits on what you can change. I don't really see the reason why they are being removed from the game.
The 5 mil isn't the reason why it will be bad for noobs. It's because the vets know how to exploit it to get the best result. Those results being faster training times compared to the nooblets. |
Blindscythe
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:27:00 -
[147]
Personally I see this as a system being setup to aid future decisions by CCP. I doubt very much that it is intended for veteran players and the current skills available.
Sure, respec 100% for combat or 100% for mining, but if they release an expansion 3 months into the 6 month respec time which brings in new omfgwtf skills/mods/ships that require charisma (say) then i'm pretty certain you'll be thanking God that they allowed another respec only 3 months later.
Currently, vets have implants whereas rookies don't. Most attributes are pretty similar if you compare 2 combat characters or 2 mining characters. Ie. Charisma is the dump stat. The difference between them later on comes down to the implants.
With this system, there will STILL be a difference from implants even if everyone decides to max perception, so the training times will NOT be the same for all.
All this respeccing will do is level the field, allowing people to actually progress down seperate paths. I'm slightly worried by the number of vets assuming that everyone will reach 'end-game' (hah) faster this way. Which is puzzling, considering new content floods out from CCP ALL THE TIME.
Just my 0.02 isk!
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Tobin Arkon
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:31:00 -
[148]
Quote:
Because it increases the gap between new and old players while claiming to do the opposite perhaps?
Because it makes bloodlines completely irrelevant?
Ships have a propulsion type and strength that is completely irrelevant, do you see people caring about that? No, it was removed to simplify the game to make it more fun...
Skill points...changing...making the game more fun...
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Yeshua Christ
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:35:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 10:36:57
Originally by: Digital Solaris I do agree with the OP that this looks like a NGE feature. But it boggles my mind as to why some people are finding it to be contributing factor to dumbing the game down?
It is not going to affect the game in any way than how spent attribute points can be redone twice a year and how much faster skills might finish. Plus if you don't want to use it, then don't.
How is that suddenly a bad thing for anyone playing EVE?
Because it increases the gap between new and old players while claiming to do the opposite perhaps?
Because it makes bloodlines completely irrelevant?
Originally by: Rodj Blake Exactly my point!
You'll be maxing out your Perc when training Perc skills - and so will everyone else but the noobs.
Won't somebody think of the noobs?
What you and everyone who brings this argument to bear fail to realize is that in doing so you completely gimp yourself if you want to train any other skills than you min max attributes. Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:36:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 11/02/2009 11:37:54
Originally by: Tobin Arkon
Quote:
Because it increases the gap between new and old players while claiming to do the opposite perhaps?
Because it makes bloodlines completely irrelevant?
Ships have a propulsion type and strength that is completely irrelevant, do you see people caring about that? No, it was removed to simplify the game to make it more fun...
Actually propulsion type was revelant (in testing). And be happy it isnt now - it was some weird screwed up scrambling (iirc - or maybe it was webbing) mechanism.
Quote:
Skill points...changing...making the game more fun...
Yeh fun for those who will min-max. And more whines from newbs who will be left behind yet again.
Also if its your version of fun, why not make my version: 1bil isk every week out of thin air. Then ill be able to lose faction battleship every week without any problems. FUN!
Quote: Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?
Why should i stop playing? Ill stack per/will the 1st thing i do. It will enable me to get most weapon specs to lv5 and max missile skills + get caldari cruiser/BS lv5. At the time ill still fly old ships im skilled for. 70mil SP doesnt instantly vanish when you change attribs, ya know?
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:43:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 11:43:40 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 11:43:09
Quote: Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?
As someone who has 95m SPs I'll be min/maxing every six months since I can do it whilst still playing the game.
However, someone on 5m SP will not be able to do it, and so will lose out compared to me.
And that's why it's a bad idea.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Digital Solaris
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:46:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Digital Solaris I do agree with the OP that this looks like a NGE feature. But it boggles my mind as to why some people are finding it to be contributing factor to dumbing the game down?
It is not going to affect the game in any way than how spent attribute points can be redone twice a year and how much faster skills might finish. Plus if you don't want to use it, then don't.
How is that suddenly a bad thing for anyone playing EVE?
Because it increases the gap between new and old players while claiming to do the opposite perhaps?
Because it makes bloodlines completely irrelevant?
I disagree, because the gap between new and old that you are refering to, relates to experience, accumlated assets and SPs. Not attribute differences.
When was the bloodlines ever relevant, beside starting attributes and career choice? When CCP released RMR and the Achura bloodline along with it?
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Yeshua Christ
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:46:00 -
[153]
Edited by: Yeshua Christ on 11/02/2009 11:47:53
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Quote: Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?
Why should i stop playing? Ill stack per/will the 1st thing i do. It will enable me to get most weapon specs to lv5 and max missile skills + get caldari cruiser/BS lv5. At the time ill still fly old ships im skilled for. 70mil SP doesnt instantly vanish when you change attribs, ya know?
And in that case what does it matter anyway? No new character is ever going to catch you in SP anyway and people love to argue that this game isn't about SP but rather skill. You can't have it both ways. Even taking the SP matter most route then your still looking at gimped training for 6 months on any other skills that don't use those attributes. Say you re-spec 2 months before a major change hits the game and you need to train something else. Well looky here you just royally screwed yourself. It still balances out.
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Digital Solaris
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:48:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Quote: Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?
As someone who has 95m SPs I'll be min/maxing every six months since I can do it whilst still playing the game.
However, someone on 5m SP will not be able to do it, and so will lose out compared to me.
And that's why it's a bad idea.
As Achura being the dominant choice for new subscribing players, I doubt that is going to happen.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:50:00 -
[155]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 11/02/2009 11:52:53
Originally by: Digital Solaris
I disagree, because the gap between new and old that you are refering to, relates to experience, accumlated assets and SPs. Not attribute differences.
Thats true, yet newbs whine most of the time that they cant "catch up" with SPs to older players (wheras they can buy ISK via GTC). This system will make gap even larger. New player needs to train multiple skills from multiple cattegories thus their stats need to be balanced. Older players with good skills all round can play min/maxing on stuff they want because what the NEED is already learned (within first 10-15mil sp). Thus newbie will get around 50-70% of SP vet will get.
Quote: Say you re-spec 2 months before a major change hits the game and you need to train something else. Well looky here you just royally screwed yourself. It still balances out.
No, it means that you are stupid to respec 2 months before change. Plan accordingly, so you have skills ot train with set attribs (and there is plenty of per/will ones so its not a big problem). Respec AFTER every expansion (if you need) with another 6month skill plan in mind. If you have shorter skill plan respec balanced with per/will (as an example) being a bit above others.
Unless you are stupid like in your example you should be way ahead of average chars who need/want to train all round.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:53:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Yeshua Christ Edited by: Yeshua Christ on 11/02/2009 11:47:53
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Quote: Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?
Why should i stop playing? Ill stack per/will the 1st thing i do. It will enable me to get most weapon specs to lv5 and max missile skills + get caldari cruiser/BS lv5. At the time ill still fly old ships im skilled for. 70mil SP doesnt instantly vanish when you change attribs, ya know?
And in that case what does it matter anyway? No new character is ever going to catch you in SP anyway and people love to argue that this game isn't about SP but rather skill. You can't have it both ways. Even taking the SP matter most route then your still looking at gimped training for 6 months on any other skills that don't use those attributes. Say you re-spec 2 months before a major change hits the game and you need to train something else. Well looky here you just royally screwed yourself. It still balances out.
CCP traditionally go with six monthly deployment schedules (although there have been hints that this may change).
It's just a case of synching your min/maxing plan with the deployment dates of patches.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Yeshua Christ
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:54:00 -
[157]
Edited by: Yeshua Christ on 11/02/2009 11:56:48
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Digital Solaris
I disagree, because the gap between new and old that you are refering to, relates to experience, accumlated assets and SPs. Not attribute differences.
Thats true, yet newbs whine most of the time that they cant "catch up" with SPs to older players (wheras they can buy ISK via GTC). This system will make gap even larger. New player needs to train multiple skills from multiple cattegories thus their stats need to be balanced. Older players with good skills all round can play min/maxing on stuff they want because what the NEED is already learned (within first 10-15mil sp). Thus newbie will get around 50-70% of SP vet will get.
I fail to see why this matters at all. They will never ever catch up anyway. That gap will always be there with skillpoints why does how big it gets make a bit of difference? I only have 22 million skillpoints on my oldest account, and I should have over 50 mil SP based on character age. I'll still never catch up to Rodj or anyone else with higher SP so why should I care how much further ahead these people get? SP does not equate to fun in this game.
Originally by: Rodj Blake CCP traditionally go with six monthly deployment schedules (although there have been hints that this may change).
It's just a case of synching your min/maxing plan with the deployment dates of patches.
Tell this to all the nano-whiners.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:55:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Digital Solaris
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Quote: Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?
As someone who has 95m SPs I'll be min/maxing every six months since I can do it whilst still playing the game.
However, someone on 5m SP will not be able to do it, and so will lose out compared to me.
And that's why it's a bad idea.
As Achura being the dominant choice for new subscribing players, I doubt that is going to happen.
My base stats will be better for traning the skills that I'm improving than any Achura.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:56:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Yeshua Christ SP does not equate to fun in this game.
In which case, there's no need to have attribute repsecs, is there?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Digital Solaris
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:58:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Yeshua Christ SP does not equate to fun in this game.
In which case, there's no need to have attribute repsecs, is there?
For Gallente there is.
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Yeshua Christ
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:59:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Yeshua Christ on 11/02/2009 12:02:17
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Yeshua Christ SP does not equate to fun in this game.
In which case, there's no need to have attribute repsecs, is there?
But herein is the difference, I'm not arguing against it or for it. I don't care what CCP does with attribute respecs. My attributes are even across the board from character birthand the only reason I will ever use the Respec at all is to lower my charisma. If they ever introduce Char related skills I need to train then I will put my attributes right back where they are now. (22,24,22,24,22)
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Si Raven
Raven's Toy Production
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:01:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Yeshua Christ Edited by: Yeshua Christ on 11/02/2009 11:37:42 What you and everyone who brings this argument to bear fail to realize is that in doing so you completely gimp yourself if you want to train any other skills than your min max attributes. Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?
A newb might gimp itself but I have plenty of skills. I can easily max my Per/Wil for 12 months and not regret it. I'm sure I can find 6 months of training for any attribute change I make and when I can't, I'll balance them. And IÆm not that worried if I donÆt take advantage of new features as soon as they come out.
The new T3 skills are only rank 1 and don't seem to give any benefit. I can afford to spend a few days training them to 3/4 and not regret my attribute choice.
I think there should be a limit to how many points each attribute can be changed from the race's base. Not how it is currently, that each race can be increased to the same value.
I agree, 5M isk is nothing.
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Rennion
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:02:00 -
[163]
I dont have a problem with it at all and this is coming from a min/maxed achura *****.
Being able to switch around your attributes promotes diversity it does not lower it. I will be able to pump up my charisma to finally train leadership and gang skills, miners will have a lower barrier to entry if they want to become combat pilots etc..
Everyone may have a hard on for there ability to pump perc/will but there are those of us out there who are dripping at the thought of finally being able to pump up charisma and max out leadership skills too.
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Yeshua Christ
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:06:00 -
[164]
Edited by: Yeshua Christ on 11/02/2009 12:06:22
Originally by: Si Raven
Originally by: Yeshua Christ Edited by: Yeshua Christ on 11/02/2009 11:37:42 What you and everyone who brings this argument to bear fail to realize is that in doing so you completely gimp yourself if you want to train any other skills than your min max attributes. Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?
A newb might gimp itself but I have plenty of skills. I can easily max my Per/Wil for 12 months and not regret it. I'm sure I can find 6 months of training for any attribute change I make and when I can't, I'll balance them. And IÆm not that worried if I donÆt take advantage of new features as soon as they come out.
The new T3 skills are only rank 1 and don't seem to give any benefit. I can afford to spend a few days training them to 3/4 and not regret my attribute choice.
I think there should be a limit to how many points each attribute can be changed from the race's base. Not how it is currently, that each race can be increased to the same value.
I agree, 5M isk is nothing.
Again why does this matter? Your always going to be ahead of the new characters anyway. So you can afford to min max for a year, good for you then you can get into your stuff that much faster. Hope that CCP doesn't drop the nerf bomb on you after you re-spec and turn your min/max against you.
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Evocationz
Amarr Terra Nostra SATRAPY
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:06:00 -
[165]
The term i think of when thinking about the OP is W A N K A
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L046
Stripey Industrial Beast Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:08:00 -
[166]
Its a great change, i have 5 accounts and all need charisma taking away. my industrial alts now fully trained in industry and leadership skills can now become the pvp skill training gods i always wanted, TY CCP
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:12:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:12:46
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
Again why does this matter? Your always going to be ahead of the new characters anyway. So you can afford to min max for a year, good for you then you can get into your stuff that much faster. Hope that CCP doesn't drop the nerf bomb on you after you re-spec and turn your min/max against you.
It's a common complaint among noobs that the vets train faster than them. Such things are important to a lot of people.
The changes will only increase the difference in training speed.
As for the nerf bomb, the effects won't be that great. And if they are, everyone will moan and CCP will cave in as they always do these days and it will be sorted. They'll probably sort it out by making the game even more "mainstream" and allowing SP repecs.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Yeshua Christ
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:15:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:12:46
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
Again why does this matter? Your always going to be ahead of the new characters anyway. So you can afford to min max for a year, good for you then you can get into your stuff that much faster. Hope that CCP doesn't drop the nerf bomb on you after you re-spec and turn your min/max against you.
It's a common complaint among noobs that the vets train faster than them. Such things are important to a lot of people.
The changes will only increase the difference in training speed.
As for the nerf bomb, the effects won't be that great. And if they are, everyone will moan and CCP will cave in as they always do these days and it will be sorted. They'll probably sort it out by making the game even more "mainstream" and allowing SP repecs.
Here is the thing, CCP will never ever nerf the vets training speed or increase the noobs training speed to ever catch the vets. If they did all the vets would sh*t a giant brick and these forums would collapse from all the whines. Noobies will just have to live with the gap like I did when I started the game. I doubt CCP will ever allow SP respecs, but if that does happen then they can kiss the current playbase goodbye. I think they know this and will steer clear of it.
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Blindscythe
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:16:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:12:46
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
Again why does this matter? Your always going to be ahead of the new characters anyway. So you can afford to min max for a year, good for you then you can get into your stuff that much faster. Hope that CCP doesn't drop the nerf bomb on you after you re-spec and turn your min/max against you.
It's a common complaint among noobs that the vets train faster than them. Such things are important to a lot of people.
The changes will only increase the difference in training speed.
As for the nerf bomb, the effects won't be that great. And if they are, everyone will moan and CCP will cave in as they always do these days and it will be sorted. They'll probably sort it out by making the game even more "mainstream" and allowing SP repecs.
No-no... shhhh don't mention SP respecs! Arghh
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:21:00 -
[170]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:21:01
Originally by: Yeshua Christ I doubt CCP will ever allow SP respecs, but if that does happen then they can kiss the current playbase goodbye. I think they know this and will steer clear of it.
People used to say that CCP would never introduce skill queues.
People used to say that CCP would never introduce attribute respecs.
There's lots of things that people thought that CCP would never do, but they did.
Never say never again.
It was also said that players would quit in their droves after the stacking nerf, after the drone nerf, after the ghost training nerf, after the speed nerf and let's face it, after pretty much every other major nerf. Didn't quite work out that way, did it?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Brazero
Amarr Noble House
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:23:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Dani SP make it like this:
- 1st time: free - 2nd and sucesive times: 30Ç/$ or 2bil ISK
Sounds like a plan, but I would remove the $/Ç thing and make it 20bill isk
This new attrib thing doesn't really interest me, I'm pretty much done with skills and such, and I like my attribs
Originally by: Rodj Blake CCP are planning to give Amarrians some "oomph"
Unfortunately, "oomph" is the sound one makes when kicked repeatedly in the ribs.
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RisenPhoenix
Shadowyn Corp.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:24:00 -
[172]
Just ignore Yeshua Christ guys hes the worst kind of moronic alt troll. ------------------------------------------------
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Yeshua Christ
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:26:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:21:01
Originally by: Yeshua Christ I doubt CCP will ever allow SP respecs, but if that does happen then they can kiss the current playbase goodbye. I think they know this and will steer clear of it.
People used to say that CCP would never introduce skill queues.
People used to say that CCP would never introduce attribute respecs.
There's lots of things that people thought that CCP would never do, but they did.
Never say never again.
It was also said that players would quit in their droves after the stacking nerf, after the drone nerf, after the ghost training nerf, after the speed nerf and let's face it, after pretty much every other major nerf. Didn't quite work out that way, did it?
No but none of those changes would essentially turn this game into WoW in space. SP respec would pretty much universally **** off everyone at once not just one subset of users. Completely negates SP at all, might as well just give every Character the ability to use everything from the start.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:27:00 -
[174]
Since I'm horribly bored at work, I did some number crunching…
There are 1,913 ranks worth of skills in the game (ranks is the easiest short form for training time).
Of those: 166 use Cha as a primary (118) or secondary (48) attribute 991 use Int as a primary (851) or secondary (140) attribute 1061 use Mem as a primary (220) or secondary (841) attribute 819 use Per as a primary (604) or secondary (215) attribute 789 use Wil as a primary (120) or secondary (669) attriute
The Cha-based skills have an average rank of 2.9 (prim) or 3.7 (sec) — 3.1 over all. The Int-based skills have an average rank of 6.3 (prim) or 2.6 (sec) — 5.2 over all. The Mem-based skills have an average rank of 3.3 (prim) or 6.2 (sec) — 5.3 over all. The Per-based skills have an average rank of 5.8 (prim) or 4.9 (sec) — 5.5 over all. The Wil-based skills have an average rank of 6.0 (prim) or 5.6 (sec) — 5.6 over all.
The attribute combinations are distributed as follows: Int/Mem: 813 ranks over 126 skills. Per/Wil: 602 ranks over 103 skills. Mem/Int: 104 ranks over 39 skills. Wil/Per: 96 ranks over 15 skills. Mem/Per: 76 ranks over 18 skills. Cha/Wil: 67 ranks over 17 skills. Mem/Cha: 40 ranks over 9 skills. Int/Per: 38 ranks over 10 skills. Cha/Mem: 26 ranks over 8 skills. Cha/Int: 22 ranks over 14 skills. Wil/Int: 14 ranks over 1 skill. Wil/Cha: 8 ranks over 4 skills. Cha/Per: 3 ranks over 1 skill. Per/Mem: 2 ranks over 1 skill. All other combinations: 0 skills.
Start your min/maxing, gentlemen (it should be quite easy)!
…also, I still maintain that it would be a far better solution to fix the utter uselessness and worthlessness of the Charisma attribute. That, and I probably missed some very important skills somewhere in my counting, but meh! ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Yeshua Christ
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:27:00 -
[175]
Originally by: RisenPhoenix Just ignore Yeshua Christ guys hes the worst kind of moronic alt troll.
Aww did I p*ss in your coffee today?
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:29:00 -
[176]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:29:05
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:21:01
Originally by: Yeshua Christ I doubt CCP will ever allow SP respecs, but if that does happen then they can kiss the current playbase goodbye. I think they know this and will steer clear of it.
People used to say that CCP would never introduce skill queues.
People used to say that CCP would never introduce attribute respecs.
There's lots of things that people thought that CCP would never do, but they did.
Never say never again.
It was also said that players would quit in their droves after the stacking nerf, after the drone nerf, after the ghost training nerf, after the speed nerf and let's face it, after pretty much every other major nerf. Didn't quite work out that way, did it?
No but none of those changes would essentially turn this game into WoW in space. SP respec would pretty much universally **** off everyone at once not just one subset of users. Completely negates SP at all, might as well just give every Character the ability to use everything from the start.
Please don't say that SP respecs would turn Eve into WoW in space - CCP's accountants might be reading this!
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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RisenPhoenix
Shadowyn Corp.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:29:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
Originally by: RisenPhoenix Just ignore Yeshua Christ guys hes the worst kind of moronic alt troll.
Aww did I p*ss in your coffee today?
nope you've given me much lulz today and I thank you for that |
Isis Soryu
Caldari IsilZheHa Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:30:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Isis Soryu on 11/02/2009 12:30:53
Originally by: RisenPhoenix
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
Originally by: RisenPhoenix Just ignore Yeshua Christ guys hes the worst kind of moronic alt troll.
Aww did I p*ss in your coffee today?
nope you've given me much lulz today and I thank you for that
Your very welcome. I aim to please.
And just to be clear yes this is my main.
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Noriko Rei
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:32:00 -
[179]
I don't have a problem living with the choices I made when I created my character. Like a real person, there are some areas where I have natural talent to train faster and others where I'm not so sharp. Attributes represent the latent ability your character was born with, and allowing people to change those things as the mood strikes them to ensure that they're always adept at whatever is necessary for training is contrary to any sense of verisimilitude in the EVE universe.
Out here in the real world, I'm a smart fellow, so picking up academic skills is no trouble at all, but I wasn't particularly blessed by the gene pool physically, so the Marine Corps was a serious challenge. Would it have been wonderful if I could respec my DNA every 6 months to always be a prodigy in whatever endeavor I please? Sure. Such a desire, however, is better left to fantasy than reality for many of the practical reasons already mentioned, as well as the reality factor of the choices we make in creating our characters having a meaningful impact on the game.
If Achura is such an overpowered bloodline, perhaps CCP should adjust the balance problem with initial attribute distributions rather than making the characters' genome just another module to be changed.
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RisenPhoenix
Shadowyn Corp.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:33:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Isis Soryu Edited by: Isis Soryu on 11/02/2009 12:30:53
Originally by: RisenPhoenix
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
Originally by: RisenPhoenix Just ignore Yeshua Christ guys hes the worst kind of moronic alt troll.
Aww did I p*ss in your coffee today?
nope you've given me much lulz today and I thank you for that
Your very welcome. I aim to please.
And just to be clear yes this is my main.
lol just another alt this keeps getting funnier, how many more you gonna use? |
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Isis Soryu
Caldari IsilZheHa Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:36:00 -
[181]
Originally by: RisenPhoenix lol just another alt this keeps getting funnier, how many more you gonna use?
Paranoid aren't you. Do the alts scare you? Not that I care, feel free to look me up ingame.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:39:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Noriko Rei
If Achura is such an overpowered bloodline, perhaps CCP should adjust the balance problem with initial attribute distributions rather than making the characters' genome just another module to be changed.
That would certainly be another option, but I still thing that the best solution would be to introduce more Cha skills.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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RisenPhoenix
Shadowyn Corp.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:40:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Isis Soryu
Originally by: RisenPhoenix lol just another alt this keeps getting funnier, how many more you gonna use?
Paranoid aren't you. Do the alts scare you? Not that I care, feel free to look me up ingame.
already did I am really bored and I have alts that look less like alts than your "main" does so keep trying |
Isis Soryu
Caldari IsilZheHa Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:44:00 -
[184]
Originally by: RisenPhoenix
Originally by: Isis Soryu
Originally by: RisenPhoenix lol just another alt this keeps getting funnier, how many more you gonna use?
Paranoid aren't you. Do the alts scare you? Not that I care, feel free to look me up ingame.
already did I am really bored and I have alts that look less like alts than your "main" does so keep trying
Whatever you say, keep your paranoia to yourself and stop derailing the thread. More charisma related skills could indeed be a better solution but I don't know what skills they could add that that would have it as a primary attribute. If would have to be an awful lot of skills for it ever to be worth putting points in charisma as it stands.
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b1zz
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Posted - 2009.02.11 13:42:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Lord Berk I agree with Rodj and the OP.
Although, this proposed change would greatly benefit one of my characters - for the greater good of the game it must not go through.
This opens a huge can of worms of respeccing and min-maxing. We've all made mistakes in character creation, that's part of the allure of EvE, we love it for being harsh. This is a game that rewards research, planning, patience and execution. Attribute respeccing has no place in the rules we as players currently abide by and begins the game's journey into catering to the WoW crowd.
An industrialist is primarily always an industrialist, as is a combat fighter, as is a CEO. They can do other stuff but it takes them longer. This was the original concept and it was brilliant.
Take a look at an MMO where this can done to the extreme - Guild Wars. Walk into a town, respec whatever you want for free. This takes away a sense of WHO YOU ARE as a character. Your name is irrelevant, all that matters is your build and how it benefits your group.
To also to appeal to CCP's business side, people stay in MMO's because they like their character. Like RL, getting through the hard stuff builds character and makes the end goal that much sweeter.
I'll say this again, we LIKE characters.
We hit Amarr and see the Veldnaught and know things are as they should be. The U'K's neverending war with the Empire, CVA's protection of Providence, the huge power blocs in 0.0, the list goes on. Yes, these things evolve, they change, but they do so naturally and as a result of our actions.
If we are able to respec attributes, in order to remain competitive, this is something everyone must do. If you do not, eventually you will fall behind those who do, because you believe your character is your character, not just a set of numbers.
o7 OP for standing up.
Agree with the above and the OP.
Attribute respec is dumbing the game down. This will be the first really big chunk out of Eve's uniqueness as an MMO AFAIK. It promotes laziness for one thing, removing any advantage you might get from actually investigating something before acting on it (an unbelievable concept I know!).
I like Eve because of its complexity. I like Eve because decisions you make have consequences that may affect you for years. I like Eve because the maxim 'knowledge is power' applies (or in other words the dumb and the lazy fail at Eve). This one change dilutes all these things.
Fingers crossed they don't impliment, or at least that 6 month thing, caw-blimey you've gotta be kidding me!
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SiJira
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:04:00 -
[186]
this idea is a bad fix to a initially bad introduction of bloodlines like achura Trashed sig, Shark was here |
DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.11 17:05:00 -
[187]
Edited by: DrAtomic on 11/02/2009 17:06:28 I totally fail to see why this is bad... Planning your skilltree ahead and adjusting your attribs accordingly will speed up skilltraining which is taking way too long anyway.
However it's not without danger in doing so, if you are 1 month in and decide you want to switch your plan you got have royally f-ed yourself.
Diversity will still be there, since multiple tactics are possible; i.e. optimised attribs for certain skillplan, optimise for industrial skills, pvp skills etc, or simply balance it all out. It actually allows you to handle your attributes strategicly where as before it was a newb decission that either worked out or didnt depending on your luck with character creation.
Edit: Do expect an added feature to evemon advising it with the most efficient skilltree based on your skillplan though. - - -
Originally by: CCP Prism X I can invent ways to get free candy for you where the implementation is so bad that you'd never want to see candy again in your whole life.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 17:12:00 -
[188]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 17:14:59 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 17:12:10
Originally by: DrAtomic Edited by: DrAtomic on 11/02/2009 17:06:28 I totally fail to see why this is bad... Planning your skilltree ahead and adjusting your attribs accordingly will speed up skilltraining which is taking way too long anyway.
That's your opinion and of course you're entitled to it. However, there are many people who don't think that training times are too long. The last thing the game needs is a situation where everybody can do everything, and long training times help prevent this.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Pearljammer 5657
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Posted - 2009.02.11 17:13:00 -
[189]
I support a one time change for current playerbase, and m10 noobs.
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The Truckdriver
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:17:00 -
[190]
I am also against the system for changing it every 6 months.
The first time should be free, after 6 months of playing. Every next time you switch it should be 50$. That would make people think before swapping their skills everyday.
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:56:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Tippia Since I'm horribly bored at work, I did some number crunchingà
There are 1,913 ranks worth of skills in the game (ranks is the easiest short form for training time).
Of those: 166 use Cha as a primary (118) or secondary (48) attribute 991 use Int as a primary (851) or secondary (140) attribute 1061 use Mem as a primary (220) or secondary (841) attribute 819 use Per as a primary (604) or secondary (215) attribute 789 use Wil as a primary (120) or secondary (669) attriute
The Cha-based skills have an average rank of 2.9 (prim) or 3.7 (sec) ù 3.1 over all. The Int-based skills have an average rank of 6.3 (prim) or 2.6 (sec) ù 5.2 over all. The Mem-based skills have an average rank of 3.3 (prim) or 6.2 (sec) ù 5.3 over all. The Per-based skills have an average rank of 5.8 (prim) or 4.9 (sec) ù 5.5 over all. The Wil-based skills have an average rank of 6.0 (prim) or 5.6 (sec) ù 5.6 over all.
The attribute combinations are distributed as follows: Int/Mem: 813 ranks over 126 skills. Per/Wil: 602 ranks over 103 skills. Mem/Int: 104 ranks over 39 skills. Wil/Per: 96 ranks over 15 skills. Mem/Per: 76 ranks over 18 skills. Cha/Wil: 67 ranks over 17 skills. Mem/Cha: 40 ranks over 9 skills. Int/Per: 38 ranks over 10 skills. Cha/Mem: 26 ranks over 8 skills. Cha/Int: 22 ranks over 14 skills. Wil/Int: 14 ranks over 1 skill. Wil/Cha: 8 ranks over 4 skills. Cha/Per: 3 ranks over 1 skill. Per/Mem: 2 ranks over 1 skill. All other combinations: 0 skills.
Start your min/maxing, gentlemen (it should be quite easy)!
àalso, I still maintain that it would be a far better solution to fix the utter uselessness and worthlessness of the Charisma attribute. That, and I probably missed some very important skills somewhere in my counting, but meh!
Interesting numbers. I immediately stopped training my leadership skills with the achura char ..*cough* ... . Will max charisma to maxout the leadership and missing social skills in the first 6 monts, maybe paired with int/mem to get that support skills, and then everything on perc/wp - who needs +7 implants haha this makes it much faster and riskfree.
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Khrillian
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:00:00 -
[192]
Originally by: iudex But being able to redistribute every 6 months changes the whole skill training pattern, which has been a successful core feature of Eve for over 5 years. Now people will max one side for 6 months and then the other in the next 6 months. Everyone will be training everything at maximum speed and efficiency, no diffrence between the industrialist and the combat specialised pilot.
-People have always been able to make alts which are tailored to their skill training needs. How is that any better than having that option on a single character?
-The difference between the industrialist and the combat pilot is EXISTING SKILLS. What's the benefit of restricting future opportunities in EVE (by keeping attributes fixed)?
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Jared D'Uroth
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:10:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Khrillian
Originally by: iudex But being able to redistribute every 6 months changes the whole skill training pattern, which has been a successful core feature of Eve for over 5 years. Now people will max one side for 6 months and then the other in the next 6 months. Everyone will be training everything at maximum speed and efficiency, no diffrence between the industrialist and the combat specialised pilot.
-People have always been able to make alts which are tailored to their skill training needs. How is that any better than having that option on a single character?
-The difference between the industrialist and the combat pilot is EXISTING SKILLS. What's the benefit of restricting future opportunities in EVE (by keeping attributes fixed)?
It's not restricting them, it just makes it slower. As has been stated, this is a "dumbing down" of Eve. People should be stuck with the attributes they start with.
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Dari Anoh
Amarr Anoh Shavar
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:12:00 -
[194]
*puts on tinfoil hat* Somehow I can just picture this conversation having taken place...
CCP Developer #1: "We can't possibly put this out on Singularity, it's nowhere finished and full of bugs!" CCP Developer #2: "Don't worry, I'll put in a decoy, they'll never notice the rest. Maybe something with attributes..."
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Insa Rexion
Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:54:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Alora Venoda
Originally by: Juwi Kotch This is the first step onto the slippery slope so many originally good or not to bad MMOGs (UO, Starwars, etc) died on: Dumbing down the game.
I don't like that.
Juwi Kotch
"good" is a relative term. some may say that "old-school" game mechanics were too harsh, which kept them out of the game until it was dumbed down. there is a different between "depth" and "complexity". there is a difference between "stupidly annoying" and "harsh".
when such changes are made that appear to "dumb down" the game, often they are actually just making it more convenient. but when this includes changes to the game mechanics, the veterans start complaining "you noobs have it so easy now days... back when i was a noob... blah blah... 15 miles in the snow uphill while barefoot."
I am a 3 month player and even I can see a respec every 6 months is a bloody awful idea.
Quote: the fact of the matter is that these changes make the game more enjoyable for everyone, but it's human nature to feel like the "more challenging" times (ie- less fun, more annoying) were "better" for some reason. this is most likely because we take pride in overcoming those challenges, where the new players don't even have the opportunity to do so. and once things are easier, we may feel like our accomplishments of the past are no longer meaningful or appreciated. we may find ourselves thinking, "dang if i just waited to start playing, i could have had it easy!"
on the flip side, some changes that "dumb down" some games really do ruin the experience. it could make the game "too easy" or "less fun"... to consider this, we must examine the impact on the game from the view of a new player and not a veteran.
as for the attribute respec, i think it's long overdue, and makes the game "less annoying" for everyone. in fact, because of the old ways, there's far more Caldari (esp Achura) characters than most other races and bloodlines. with the new system, players will be more free to select whatever race they want...
does anyone actually enjoy being stuck with whatever attributes we picked as noobs? no! more likely, we just resent the fact that we have come this far already and don't get a do-over...
yes but I don't think anyone disagrees with a one time respec, just a respec everry 6 months
well mannered a**h*** |
Andreya
Direct Intent
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Posted - 2009.02.11 23:19:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Florio i agree with OP completely.
one off respec is necessary and we've been asking for it.
respec every 6 months makes a mockery of having attributes at all, and in addition imho may lead to higher noob attrition as they are told on the forums to maximise int/mem or perc/wp at the beginning and then are stuck with crap ship/weaponry or support/industrial skills for 6 months.
i'd be amazed if the current proposals make it to tranquility as surely the above points made by the op and others including myself are just common sense?
i agree. i love the idea of being able to respec.. BUT twice a year is too much, i myself and everyone else will be usuing that feature to its fullest extent... (which imo is a little silly) HOWEVER, i do think being able to change 2 time during your career is perfect... one change to fix up my leadership and trade skills, then change back to normal pvp attributes... forever... im ok with that :P _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected]) |
Agrigan
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Posted - 2009.02.11 23:29:00 -
[197]
I would suggest the following:
in ISK:
1st respec = 1 x SP 2nd respec = 2 x SP 3rd respec = 4 x SP 4th respec = 8 x SP and so on...
I believe this will solve everyone's problem, and still allow new players to experiment, and old players to respec.
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Llyod Toad
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Posted - 2009.02.12 09:04:00 -
[198]
I could live with a one time respec, but every 6 months will ruin the game. I have been playing for a year and a half, 2 accounts, and since the news of a repec of attributes every 6 months, ive actually considered quitting.
I may be the minority of Leaving Eve, I dont care, Im not going to play a watered down game. I have better things to do, and the love of the game is what keeps me here. I dont know, this is kinda ****ed up just my 2 cents.
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Ambien Torca
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Posted - 2009.02.12 09:14:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 17:14:59 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 17:12:10
Originally by: DrAtomic Edited by: DrAtomic on 11/02/2009 17:06:28 I totally fail to see why this is bad... Planning your skilltree ahead and adjusting your attribs accordingly will speed up skilltraining which is taking way too long anyway.
That's your opinion and of course you're entitled to it. However, there are many people who don't think that training times are too long. The last thing the game needs is a situation where everybody can do everything, and long training times help prevent this.
You can already do everything, just get alt/s and also as a bonus you train *x faster to your goal (and you can multitask on top of that). Some skills just take waaaay too long to train anyway, this boost doesn¦t really allow one character to train everything anyway.
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Gorefacer
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.02.12 11:18:00 -
[200]
I vote against the redistribution or for just a once a lifetime respec.
I haven't given a lot of thought about it but I like things the way they are and this is my knee jerk reaction.
Attributes and SP are fine the way they are in my opinion, don't mess with a good thing please.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus |
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chatgris
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Posted - 2009.02.12 11:27:00 -
[201]
Even though as an Achura, I'll lose my 3 char edge, I am all for this. It allows people to change their focus, keeps the game fresh for those of us who don't want to have a second character if we want to do something different.
If I had known this was going to happen when I created my character, I could have actually created a bloodline for RP value and enjoyed the game more instead of just creating a bloodline so that I could get my skills to train faster. (Oh please a one time race switch would be great)
Respeccing your attributes every 6 months is just another way to min/max, one that takes some planning. There are still consequences for poor attribute choice/poor planning, but the consequences are NOT permanent, they are *only* for 6 months. And you know, 6 months is actually a fair chunk of time.
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Xano Heroma
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2009.02.12 11:37:00 -
[202]
I agree with the OP (although I think after 3 months is too fast)
it shoeld only be a one-time-thing
I'l say earlist after 1 year of gametime..... no1 at the EVE-age of 3months have the experience and knowledge of EVE to make such a disission ! |
Mjoelnir Thorwulf
Royal East Eve Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.12 11:42:00 -
[203]
I agree with the OP, if you MUST, allow ONE attribute redistribution. People are already busy making 6 month training schemes and quite frankly, I am apalled how the future looks.
My signature exceeds the maxium allowed coolness factor. -- Mjoelnir Thorwulf
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hcydo
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Posted - 2009.02.12 12:09:00 -
[204]
How about making it pricy? Let's say, 100M or 500M?
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Cypher V
Minmatar Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2009.02.12 12:20:00 -
[205]
I have a high Cha attribute that I've used for all of maybe 1 week's training.
I don't want it, never have, and I've never been willing/able to get an alt.
This new system works for me, and 95% of EVE imo.
Thanks much.
ps. Bare in mind that the people that DON'T want this change will also be training just as fast as the people that do want it, it won't change the fact that you're ahead of them SP wise. ie: Stop whining. ----------------------------------------------
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 12:22:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Cypher V
ps. Bare in mind that the people that DON'T want this change will also be training just as fast as the people that do want it, it won't change the fact that you're ahead of them SP wise. ie: Stop whining.
Agreed, it won't change the fact that I'm ahead of the noobs in SP terms. In fact, it will widen the gap.
Yet I'm still against it even though I'll be a major beneficiary of the change because I think that it will be bad for the game.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 13:46:00 -
[207]
Foolish and ill-conceived tbh.
Why not just do away with attributes altogether?
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Moonmonkey
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Posted - 2009.02.12 14:14:00 -
[208]
At first I liked the EVEs skill system but over time it becomes clear that the system is flawed. I mean I can start a new account and train up an alt without ever having to play it. I wish CCP had of gone for a UO type system in which you became more skilled by lets say flying a ship type or firing a weapon type. At the moment you set a 30+ day skill, sit around waiting for it to pop or go out side into the real world. They is nothing you can do to speed it up, maybe it would be better if the skill system and attributes were totaly change. Scrap the attributes all togetter or have them have a real in game effect. More dps or defence. Reduce skill training times so that no skill takes longer than a few days to learn. The skill system doesn't add to game play in any way.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 14:32:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Moonmonkey At first I liked the EVEs skill system but over time it becomes clear that the system is flawed. I mean I can start a new account and train up an alt without ever having to play it. I wish CCP had of gone for a UO type system in which you became more skilled by lets say flying a ship type or firing a weapon type. At the moment you set a 30+ day skill, sit around waiting for it to pop or go out side into the real world. They is nothing you can do to speed it up, maybe it would be better if the skill system and attributes were totaly change. Scrap the attributes all togetter or have them have a real in game effect. More dps or defence. Reduce skill training times so that no skill takes longer than a few days to learn. The skill system doesn't add to game play in any way.
In many ways, Eve's skills system is what differentiates it from the other MMOs out there.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Gambuk
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Posted - 2009.02.12 14:43:00 -
[210]
I dont see the huge problem with someone scheduling their next year ahead of themselves for training something and maxxing it out with a respec at the 6 month mark.
If I maxed my int/mem so I could do learning skills/eelctronics and whatnot for 6 whole months I am going to be a GIMP training anything else.
Want to try a new weapon? Well, have fun training for 3 weeks...
I dont see the problem.
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Dari Anoh
Amarr Anoh Shavar
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Posted - 2009.02.12 14:44:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Moonmonkey At first I liked the EVEs skill system but over time it becomes clear that the system is flawed. I mean I can start a new account and train up an alt without ever having to play it. I wish CCP had of gone for a UO type system in which you became more skilled by lets say flying a ship type or firing a weapon type. At the moment you set a 30+ day skill, sit around waiting for it to pop or go out side into the real world. They is nothing you can do to speed it up, maybe it would be better if the skill system and attributes were totaly change. Scrap the attributes all togetter or have them have a real in game effect. More dps or defence. Reduce skill training times so that no skill takes longer than a few days to learn. The skill system doesn't add to game play in any way.
I personally quite like the skill system still, even after having played for over 4 years now. Being able to progress my character in terms of abilities regardless of how much time I'm able to put into the game in a given week or month (RL has its ways of sneaking up on you sometimes) is still something I see as a great thing. Also, because it does just that: it gives my characters abilities, nothing more. It still requires actual player skill to put those to good use. And I'd hate to park my ships in an asteroid belt to shoot at asteroids for a few hours to improve my gunnery skill (as an example).
I'm not saying the skill system doesn't have its flaws, but I think this attribute respec is a very nice way of improving it. As for the respec itself, while I do see the issue that old players can more easily 'afford' to min/max attributes seeing as their larger skill collection will grant them more abilities while optimizing their training, I still think the benefits (as I've mentioned earlier in this thread) are greater.
Also, a new player can get his or her 'basic training' done in those first six months, get a sense of what they'd like to focus on as they get to know EVE, and then after those first 6 months choose to modify their attributes in order to optimize their skill training.
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Amy Wang
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Posted - 2009.02.12 14:49:00 -
[212]
How about instead effectively forcing people to organize their skill training in 6 month brackets of same attribute skills (and lets face it, it is forcing them as otherwise they just fall behind) take another approach that allows attribute reassignment over a longer time frame in smaller steps:
Allow everyone to reassign ONE attribute point within a certain timeframe (e.g. once every month or two). (could even introduce a skill that allows to reduce that timeframe, but it would also cost SP to train that skill so you have to calculate if its worth it for you)
That way people can still fix broken attributes and/or gear their char towards a new career without the ridiculous changes to skill training pattern that come with the ability to instantly switch the whole focus every 6 month.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 14:55:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Gambuk I dont see the huge problem with someone scheduling their next year ahead of themselves for training something and maxxing it out with a respec at the 6 month mark.
If I maxed my int/mem so I could do learning skills/eelctronics and whatnot for 6 whole months I am going to be a GIMP training anything else.
The problem is that with a bit of foresight, you will never be gimp at any kind of training. You will always train with max stats. In fact, attributes become completely irrelevant as a mechanism in the game and might as well be removed.
…as well as ancestry, carreer, bloodline, specialisation and race. The NPE already removes some of them, and the attribute respec turns the rest of them into cosmetic fluff with no relevance to the game.
That's the problem. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.02.12 14:58:00 -
[214]
You're just saying that because you're an Achura.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:02:00 -
[215]
Originally by: TraininVain You're just saying that because you're an Achura.
I agree with him, and I'm Amarrian
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:07:00 -
[216]
Originally by: TraininVain You're just saying that because you're an Achura.
I'm going to assume that you're being facetious, seeing as how I should be for such a change — my abysmal charisma is suddenly made completely irrelevant, and I'm long past the point in time where I needed to switch between different categories of skills so often that 6 months limits my choices… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Noriko Rei
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:11:00 -
[217]
While I would prefer to see the respec go the way of the dodo, I like the idea (if it must be implemented to attract the WoW crowd) of making this a real money service, much like changing our characters' faces, only much more expensive.
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Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:12:00 -
[218]
Also one voice for less-free attribute respeccing.
I don't mind "one time respec to fix broken things" at some interval.
As pointed out, freely changeable attributes become quite meaningless, and might as well be removed from the game. Just like the learning skills again. - You must train optimum training skills or feel being behind - You must start planning in 6 month training spurs for same reason
Neither system really adds anything to the game; merely make it feeling more grieflike.
-Lasse who of course would grudlingly respec every 6 months
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Rennion
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:13:00 -
[219]
See, I think this mechanic suits eve. EVE (and eve players) have always touted that there is no "class system" "you can be what you want to be" but at the end of the day if you are not achura you are gimped.
Now you can truly maximise the potential to be what you want to be and at the same time face consequences (you are locked into a 6 month training plan, better make damn sure you made your mind up). This is an informed choice that favours smart gamers.
The whole attribute system is creaking because it is an old school mechanic, re-building it from the ground up would be the best fix but that would cause even more nerdraging and whining from people who hammerd learning skills for 2 months straight and so on.
Something had to change, this is the change, it could be a hell of a lot worse.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:15:00 -
[220]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 12/02/2009 15:16:46
Originally by: Rennion See, I think this mechanic suits eve. EVE (and eve players) have always touted that there is no "class system" "you can be what you want to be" but at the end of the day if you are not achura you are gimped.
Now you can truly maximise the potential to be what you want to be and at the same time face consequences (you are locked into a 6 month training plan, better make damn sure you made your mind up). This is an informed choice that favours smart gamers.
The whole attribute system is creaking because it is an old school mechanic, re-building it from the ground up would be the best fix but that would cause even more nerdraging and whining from people who hammerd learning skills for 2 months straight and so on.
Something had to change, this is the change, it could be a hell of a lot worse.
I'm not Achura.
I don't feel gimped.
But anyway, if Achuras are the problem, then why not change just the attributes of new Achura characters rather then destroying the whole system?
Or maybe they could make Charisma useful?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:18:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Noriko Rei While I would prefer to see the respec go the way of the dodo, I like the idea (if it must be implemented to attract the WoW crowd) of making this a real money service, much like changing our characters' faces, only much more expensive.
The difference there is that your portrait has no effect on the game.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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RaTTuS
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:20:00 -
[222]
I like the re-speccing - though I think it should be allowable for noobs to re-spec a couple of times in the 1st month - that way they dont gimp themsaelves too heavly into a 6month queue -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
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Rennion
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:20:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 12/02/2009 15:16:46
Originally by: Rennion See, I think this mechanic suits eve. EVE (and eve players) have always touted that there is no "class system" "you can be what you want to be" but at the end of the day if you are not achura you are gimped.
Now you can truly maximise the potential to be what you want to be and at the same time face consequences (you are locked into a 6 month training plan, better make damn sure you made your mind up). This is an informed choice that favours smart gamers.
The whole attribute system is creaking because it is an old school mechanic, re-building it from the ground up would be the best fix but that would cause even more nerdraging and whining from people who hammerd learning skills for 2 months straight and so on.
Something had to change, this is the change, it could be a hell of a lot worse.
I'm not Achura.
I don't feel gimped.
But anyway, if Achuras are the problem, then why not change just the attributes of new Achura characters rather then destroying the whole system?
Or maybe they could make Charisma useful?
I do see your point, but there will always be a best, change achura and people move to khanid and so on..
Adding charisma skills would be good but the lack of charisma skills in and of itself is not the root of the problem. It is hard to make combat releveant skills charisma based without it looking silly.
The leadership skills are great, and I allready have my 6month plan in place to train them (I had previously written them off because lolcha3). Where else can you go with usefull charisma themed skills?
Maybe T3 skills with sentient ships could have worked but I fear that boat has sailed.
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:21:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Alowishus Sorry but this is a good thing. And if you don't like it you don't have to use it.
I don't like it.
Am I going to use it?
Hell yeah!
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Shirley Serious
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:36:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Tippia The problem is that with a bit of foresight, you will never be gimp at any kind of training. You will always train with max stats. In fact, attributes become completely irrelevant as a mechanism in the game and might as well be removed.
àas well as ancestry, carreer, bloodline, specialisation and race. The NPE already removes some of them, and the attribute respec turns the rest of them into cosmetic fluff with no relevance to the game.
That's the problem.
If choosing your race and bloodline is only to be cosmetic, then the RP aspects of it have to be emphasised, because then RP is the only thing that matters ingame.
As it stands at the moment, the new character creation process has a number of flaws, for RP purposes. The career specialisation option seems to have been removed, and the actual career choice seems to be somewhat random. This is terrible for RP, if you have little or no control over which school corp you want to be in. Spend lots of time to get your picture the way you want it, only for the career random option to ruin it? Not good.
And what purpose does the Ethnic Relations skill serve, should appearance only be cosmetic? Except as an annoyance to any CEO who chose the wrong race?
I think I'd have preferred a scheme, whereby the racial ships and weapons had primary/secondary attributes based upon the races. E.g. Gallente have high charisma, so Gallente ship skills would have had charisma as primary.
But at the moment, being able to reduce attributes down to 5, is not good. Perhaps if you could only remap 5 points at a time, it would be better. People could rectify things they did at character creation, and it would take a long time to radically change things.
Yes. Yes, I am. |
Noriko Rei
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:39:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Noriko Rei While I would prefer to see the respec go the way of the dodo, I like the idea (if it must be implemented to attract the WoW crowd) of making this a real money service, much like changing our characters' faces, only much more expensive.
The difference there is that your portrait has no effect on the game.
I understand, Rodj, but do you really believe that CCP is going to set this aside when so many $$$ in subscriptions are going to be attached to it? No significant number of players is going to quit over this because even if we don't like the damaging effect on the game, we're still going to take full advantage when they put it in. New people who want easy mode will take a more serious look at EVE and start paying (or continue paying). Making attributes utterly irrelevant isn't about anything other than good business in securing a bigger share of the MMORPG market.
Since CCP is not going to abandon this absurdity, it's reasonable to make it a rather pricey character service to deter a fair portion of people from abusing it. Very few people would spend even $10 on such a service (regularly), so making it $50 and limiting the number of times it can be done might help mitigate the damaging effects.
Sadly, balance seems to have been ignored in this decision. The very concept of balance is that to gain one advantage, you must diminish another. With regular respecs, players will be able to have every advantage with no legitimate ill effect. The idea that a player is locked into a 6-month plan is not a disadvantage, as the player was clearly planning that 6 months of training before selecting the proper respec.
At the end of the day, my good man, CCP will make money from this. They stand to gain new players, and losses will be negligible, at most. We might as well prepare to enjoy our new easy mode training.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:49:00 -
[227]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 12/02/2009 15:49:41
Originally by: Noriko Rei
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Noriko Rei While I would prefer to see the respec go the way of the dodo, I like the idea (if it must be implemented to attract the WoW crowd) of making this a real money service, much like changing our characters' faces, only much more expensive.
The difference there is that your portrait has no effect on the game.
I understand, Rodj, but do you really believe that CCP is going to set this aside when so many $$$ in subscriptions are going to be attached to it? No significant number of players is going to quit over this because even if we don't like the damaging effect on the game, we're still going to take full advantage when they put it in. New people who want easy mode will take a more serious look at EVE and start paying (or continue paying). Making attributes utterly irrelevant isn't about anything other than good business in securing a bigger share of the MMORPG market.
Since CCP is not going to abandon this absurdity, it's reasonable to make it a rather pricey character service to deter a fair portion of people from abusing it. Very few people would spend even $10 on such a service (regularly), so making it $50 and limiting the number of times it can be done might help mitigate the damaging effects.
Sadly, balance seems to have been ignored in this decision. The very concept of balance is that to gain one advantage, you must diminish another. With regular respecs, players will be able to have every advantage with no legitimate ill effect. The idea that a player is locked into a 6-month plan is not a disadvantage, as the player was clearly planning that 6 months of training before selecting the proper respec.
At the end of the day, my good man, CCP will make money from this. They stand to gain new players, and losses will be negligible, at most. We might as well prepare to enjoy our new easy mode training.
If I wanted to play a game that focused on maximising popular appeal and shareholder revenue, I'd be playing WoW.
But it just so happens that a lot of us started playing Eve because we wanted something a little different from the norm, and we're disappointed every time the game moves towards what I shall politely call the centre ground.
These changes are the equivalent of a Michelin star restaurant adding Big Macs to its menu.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.12 16:00:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: TraininVain You're just saying that because you're an Achura.
I agree with him, and I'm Amarrian
And i agree with him too. Amarr/Amarr 4 perception base.
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Noriko Rei
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Posted - 2009.02.12 16:02:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
If I wanted to play a game that focused on maximising popular appeal and shareholder revenue, I'd be playing WoW.
But it just so happens that a lot of us started playing Eve because we wanted something a little different from the norm, and we're disappointed every time the game moves towards what I shall politely call the centre ground.
These changes are the equivalent of a Michelin star restaurant adding Big Macs to its menu.
I'm with you, Rodj, as the training system has been one of the finest examples of why I prefer EVE to every other MMORPG I've played. I simply have no confidence that CCP is going to adhere to the old axiom: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. They seem to have been distracted by: The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
There's no way you or I can squeak loud enough to drown out thousands of subscribers who want guaranteed maximum training efficiency at all times. Perhaps being Amarr, you have a bit more faith than I. I, on the other hand, expect that this will be introduced as "every 6 months" and later changed to "every 3 months," then eventually changed to "whenever a player has the ISK to pay for a respec."
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Xtreem
Gallente Knockaround Guys Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 16:26:00 -
[230]
noo this is there plan you see.
they are going to wait for people to chnage there atribs, then take away the feature and say we changed our minds on the 6 month things, and u will have people left with max intel and mem and very low perception and vise versa... its gonna be funny :P
but yeah iv been playing now for over 5 years with perception as my lowest atrib.. and as im a pvp pilot im looking forward to changing that lol
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Dari Anoh
Amarr Anoh Shavar
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Posted - 2009.02.12 16:30:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Rodj Blake These changes are the equivalent of a Michelin star restaurant adding Big Macs to its menu.
I think you're blowing it out of proportion here. It's not like this feature requires no brains to use. Instead, it makes you think what you'd like to be doing in the next six months of EVE, and make your selection accordingly. And if you've chosen to min/max for a specific career path and find out after two months you don't like it, you're still forced to live with the consequences for another four. I'd say that sounds very much like EVE to me.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 16:34:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Noriko Rei
Originally by: Rodj Blake
If I wanted to play a game that focused on maximising popular appeal and shareholder revenue, I'd be playing WoW.
But it just so happens that a lot of us started playing Eve because we wanted something a little different from the norm, and we're disappointed every time the game moves towards what I shall politely call the centre ground.
These changes are the equivalent of a Michelin star restaurant adding Big Macs to its menu.
I'm with you, Rodj, as the training system has been one of the finest examples of why I prefer EVE to every other MMORPG I've played. I simply have no confidence that CCP is going to adhere to the old axiom: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. They seem to have been distracted by: The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
There's no way you or I can squeak loud enough to drown out thousands of subscribers who want guaranteed maximum training efficiency at all times. Perhaps being Amarr, you have a bit more faith than I. I, on the other hand, expect that this will be introduced as "every 6 months" and later changed to "every 3 months," then eventually changed to "whenever a player has the ISK to pay for a respec."
Let's not forget after every expansion.
"Free respec for every character so they can take full advantage of the new Ambulation skills"
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Moonmonkey
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Posted - 2009.02.12 16:46:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Moonmonkey At first I liked the EVEs skill system but over time it becomes clear that the system is flawed. I mean I can start a new account and train up an alt without ever having to play it. I wish CCP had of gone for a UO type system in which you became more skilled by lets say flying a ship type or firing a weapon type. At the moment you set a 30+ day skill, sit around waiting for it to pop or go out side into the real world. They is nothing you can do to speed it up, maybe it would be better if the skill system and attributes were totaly change. Scrap the attributes all togetter or have them have a real in game effect. More dps or defence. Reduce skill training times so that no skill takes longer than a few days to learn. The skill system doesn't add to game play in any way.
In many ways, Eve's skills system is what differentiates it from the other MMOs out there.
There was me thinking it was internet spaceships.
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Noriko Rei
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Posted - 2009.02.12 17:01:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Noriko Rei
Originally by: Rodj Blake
If I wanted to play a game that focused on maximising popular appeal and shareholder revenue, I'd be playing WoW.
But it just so happens that a lot of us started playing Eve because we wanted something a little different from the norm, and we're disappointed every time the game moves towards what I shall politely call the centre ground.
These changes are the equivalent of a Michelin star restaurant adding Big Macs to its menu.
I'm with you, Rodj, as the training system has been one of the finest examples of why I prefer EVE to every other MMORPG I've played. I simply have no confidence that CCP is going to adhere to the old axiom: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. They seem to have been distracted by: The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
There's no way you or I can squeak loud enough to drown out thousands of subscribers who want guaranteed maximum training efficiency at all times. Perhaps being Amarr, you have a bit more faith than I. I, on the other hand, expect that this will be introduced as "every 6 months" and later changed to "every 3 months," then eventually changed to "whenever a player has the ISK to pay for a respec."
Let's not forget after every expansion.
"Free respec for every character so they can take full advantage of the new Ambulation skills"
I played Dark Age of Camelot on and off for over 4 years. In the beginning, the training you chose as you leveled mattered. Later, the developers would allow respecs after sweeping changes to a class to allow older characters to take advantage of new content. Then the respecs were allotted for certain milestones in playing for each character. Finally, higher level NPCs started dropping items that could be used to respec a single skill path or the entire set of skills (depending on the particular item); those items are now bought and sold like any other common commodity, so a respec is as available as the wallet allows.
This problem meant that you were almost always facing someone with the latest cookie-cutter uberwtfpwn character because they were all wealthy enough to change their specializations as easily as their underwear. It became frustrating to fall behind on the money grind because you couldn't keep up with the FOTM like those who had deep pockets. I eventually left for EVE.
In EVE, it's always been conceivable for a character to be relatively good at everything, but the training time based on your chosen attributes balances this nicely; now the balance is being removed. We'll no longer have to choose between specializing in a single or a few areas based on starting attributes or generalizing our training to be mediocre at many things (until far in the future), nor will we have to be selective about starting attributes; we're being handed god mode on a silver platter, and that means CCP will have to somehow raise the bar to mitigate the effect.
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Moonmonkey
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Posted - 2009.02.12 17:09:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Dari Anoh
Originally by: Moonmonkey At first I liked the EVEs skill system but over time it becomes clear that the system is flawed. I mean I can start a new account and train up an alt without ever having to play it. I wish CCP had of gone for a UO type system in which you became more skilled by lets say flying a ship type or firing a weapon type. At the moment you set a 30+ day skill, sit around waiting for it to pop or go out side into the real world. They is nothing you can do to speed it up, maybe it would be better if the skill system and attributes were totaly change. Scrap the attributes all togetter or have them have a real in game effect. More dps or defence. Reduce skill training times so that no skill takes longer than a few days to learn. The skill system doesn't add to game play in any way.
I personally quite like the skill system still, even after having played for over 4 years now. Being able to progress my character in terms of abilities regardless of how much time I'm able to put into the game in a given week or month (RL has its ways of sneaking up on you sometimes) is still something I see as a great thing. Also, because it does just that: it gives my characters abilities, nothing more. It still requires actual player skill to put those to good use. And I'd hate to park my ships in an asteroid belt to shoot at asteroids for a few hours to improve my gunnery skill (as an example).
I'm not saying the skill system doesn't have its flaws, but I think this attribute respec is a very nice way of improving it. As for the respec itself, while I do see the issue that old players can more easily 'afford' to min/max attributes seeing as their larger skill collection will grant them more abilities while optimizing their training, I still think the benefits (as I've mentioned earlier in this thread) are greater.
Also, a new player can get his or her 'basic training' done in those first six months, get a sense of what they'd like to focus on as they get to know EVE, and then after those first 6 months choose to modify their attributes in order to optimize their skill training.
You like the system because you don't have to do anything to progress. I don't like the system because I can't do anything to progress.
There is no player effort in the system and its the system that holds player progression back. Which is strange after all as the rest of the game is based around grinding isk to replace pvp loses.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 17:14:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Moonmonkey
Originally by: Dari Anoh
Originally by: Moonmonkey At first I liked the EVEs skill system but over time it becomes clear that the system is flawed. I mean I can start a new account and train up an alt without ever having to play it. I wish CCP had of gone for a UO type system in which you became more skilled by lets say flying a ship type or firing a weapon type. At the moment you set a 30+ day skill, sit around waiting for it to pop or go out side into the real world. They is nothing you can do to speed it up, maybe it would be better if the skill system and attributes were totaly change. Scrap the attributes all togetter or have them have a real in game effect. More dps or defence. Reduce skill training times so that no skill takes longer than a few days to learn. The skill system doesn't add to game play in any way.
I personally quite like the skill system still, even after having played for over 4 years now. Being able to progress my character in terms of abilities regardless of how much time I'm able to put into the game in a given week or month (RL has its ways of sneaking up on you sometimes) is still something I see as a great thing. Also, because it does just that: it gives my characters abilities, nothing more. It still requires actual player skill to put those to good use. And I'd hate to park my ships in an asteroid belt to shoot at asteroids for a few hours to improve my gunnery skill (as an example).
I'm not saying the skill system doesn't have its flaws, but I think this attribute respec is a very nice way of improving it. As for the respec itself, while I do see the issue that old players can more easily 'afford' to min/max attributes seeing as their larger skill collection will grant them more abilities while optimizing their training, I still think the benefits (as I've mentioned earlier in this thread) are greater.
Also, a new player can get his or her 'basic training' done in those first six months, get a sense of what they'd like to focus on as they get to know EVE, and then after those first 6 months choose to modify their attributes in order to optimize their skill training.
You like the system because you don't have to do anything to progress. I don't like the system because I can't do anything to progress.
There is no player effort in the system and its the system that holds player progression back. Which is strange after all as the rest of the game is based around grinding isk to replace pvp loses.
And how will allowing attribute re-specs change Eve into a game where you grind for XP?
Seriously, if you want a game where your character improves by shooting at a certain number of enemies, there's dozens of them out there on the market.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Moonmonkey
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Posted - 2009.02.12 17:29:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Moonmonkey
Originally by: Dari Anoh
Originally by: Moonmonkey At first I liked the EVEs skill system but over time it becomes clear that the system is flawed. I mean I can start a new account and train up an alt without ever having to play it. I wish CCP had of gone for a UO type system in which you became more skilled by lets say flying a ship type or firing a weapon type. At the moment you set a 30+ day skill, sit around waiting for it to pop or go out side into the real world. They is nothing you can do to speed it up, maybe it would be better if the skill system and attributes were totaly change. Scrap the attributes all togetter or have them have a real in game effect. More dps or defence. Reduce skill training times so that no skill takes longer than a few days to learn. The skill system doesn't add to game play in any way.
I personally quite like the skill system still, even after having played for over 4 years now. Being able to progress my character in terms of abilities regardless of how much time I'm able to put into the game in a given week or month (RL has its ways of sneaking up on you sometimes) is still something I see as a great thing. Also, because it does just that: it gives my characters abilities, nothing more. It still requires actual player skill to put those to good use. And I'd hate to park my ships in an asteroid belt to shoot at asteroids for a few hours to improve my gunnery skill (as an example).
I'm not saying the skill system doesn't have its flaws, but I think this attribute respec is a very nice way of improving it. As for the respec itself, while I do see the issue that old players can more easily 'afford' to min/max attributes seeing as their larger skill collection will grant them more abilities while optimizing their training, I still think the benefits (as I've mentioned earlier in this thread) are greater.
Also, a new player can get his or her 'basic training' done in those first six months, get a sense of what they'd like to focus on as they get to know EVE, and then after those first 6 months choose to modify their attributes in order to optimize their skill training.
You like the system because you don't have to do anything to progress. I don't like the system because I can't do anything to progress.
There is no player effort in the system and its the system that holds player progression back. Which is strange after all as the rest of the game is based around grinding isk to replace pvp loses.
And how will allowing attribute re-specs change Eve into a game where you grind for XP?
Seriously, if you want a game where your character improves by shooting at a certain number of enemies, there's dozens of them out there on the market.
I never said it would but as they are changing the attribute system it shows that the system as flawed. I have been playing on and of for close to 5 years, the only thing about the game I no longer like is the skill system. Seriously why would I want to play another game?
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 19:02:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Moonmonkey
I never said it would but as they are changing the attribute system it shows that the system as flawed.
No, them changing the attribute system simply means that that they want to change the attribute system.
There's a few different motives that that they could have for it.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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gnshadowninja
Caldari Baptism oF Fire B.L.A.C.K.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 19:20:00 -
[239]
I love the system, You do realise that 6 months is a fairly long time? lol.
Shadow.
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Dari Anoh
Amarr Anoh Shavar
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Posted - 2009.02.12 19:27:00 -
[240]
Originally by: gnshadowninja You do realise that 6 months is a fairly long time?
I agree, I think it nicely balances this feature. Sure, you can go for that maximum number of skillpoints per hour, but if you want to train anything else in those 180+ days, you'll be pulling your hair out 'till you look like an exclamation mark or worse. It requires some actual forethought about what you might be up to in the next six months, which I quite like. It gives an extra incentive to think about your character's development, and in some cases will allow you to reach your goals faster if you're willing to dedicate yourself to it.
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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC. Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2009.02.12 19:39:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Dari Anoh
Originally by: gnshadowninja You do realise that 6 months is a fairly long time?
I agree, I think it nicely balances this feature. Sure, you can go for that maximum number of skillpoints per hour, but if you want to train anything else in those 180+ days, you'll be pulling your hair out 'till you look like an exclamation mark or worse. It requires some actual forethought about what you might be up to in the next six months, which I quite like. It gives an extra incentive to think about your character's development, and in some cases will allow you to reach your goals faster if you're willing to dedicate yourself to it.
6 months is nothing, Hate to tell you that but if you think otherwise your wrong, I firmly agree with the OP, 1 time for everyone after they have been playing for 6 months period. I know have no less then 12 6 month training spurts for skills, Finally get the time to start really pushing my T2 weapons as quick as possible, then I'll finish maxing out my hulk/T2 miner skills.
Once to fix mistakes at character creation I agree... but for the love of god CCP do not start on the slippery slop of respecs, once you allow them happening with any frequency you pretty much might as well allow them for everything.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 19:45:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Dari Anoh
Originally by: gnshadowninja You do realise that 6 months is a fairly long time?
I agree, I think it nicely balances this feature. Sure, you can go for that maximum number of skillpoints per hour, but if you want to train anything else in those 180+ days, you'll be pulling your hair out 'till you look like an exclamation mark or worse. It requires some actual forethought about what you might be up to in the next six months, which I quite like.
Not really, no. Go back to my post on page 6 and look at the distribution of skills an ranks in the game.
The forethought required is minimal, and six months isn't much once you get into rank-5 skills and above. It will matter a bit while you're a newbie and want to get some kind of useful baseline of skills going to get you going, but after that, it's a fairly easy choice to max out two attributes for half a year (which, incidentally, suddenly lends some credence to the common "newbs can't catch up" nonsense). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Kytanos Termek
Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:21:00 -
[243]
I think it's a wonderful change. We can finally choose the race we want INSTEAD OF ACHURA 293-D.
Why would anybody dislike this. You get to fix mistakes made. You get to optimize your skills for training. There, is, no, downside.
jeeze eve players can ***** about anything. If CCP mailed you chocolate and gave you a brand new puppy it would probably give birth to a threadnaguht scale whine. Mrr? |
Rennion
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:28:00 -
[244]
I seem to remember a dev somewhere saying that average lifetime for an account is around the 6month mark? Sorry dont have time to dig for a dev quote...
If thats the case then the timeframe makes perfect sense, just as you are burning out you get the oppurtunity to min/max for a new direction.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:30:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Kytanos Termek I think it's a wonderful change. We can finally choose the race we want INSTEAD OF ACHURA 293-D.
…except that the Achura now loses its only downside: the "penalty" of low charisma no longer exists. And the Achura also (still) work very well indeed for that first double-speed learning period.
Quote: Why would anybody dislike this. You get to fix mistakes made. You get to optimize your skills for training. There, is, no, downside.
It has the downside of making attributes irrelevant and promoting min-maxing, character farming, and the EVE-equivalent of power levelling. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Kytanos Termek
Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:37:00 -
[246]
Edited by: Kytanos Termek on 12/02/2009 20:44:28 We do that anyway. Your Achura. I'm Achura We have been min maxing all this time. Look at all the bloody Achura. Hell I made this character Achura because of attributes. Otherwise I would have chosen Civire. I like the gun on the back. We chose Achura for the attributes. We are the min-maxer's, the power leveler's.
Rather than promoting such. It puts Everyone on equal footing. How is that bad? how can we powerlevel if we all have the exact same attributes. Thats like saying my car goes faster then your car when they both go 50mph
The teapot has called the kettle black and beaten it to death with a brick of coal. Mrr? |
Agrigan
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:43:00 -
[247]
9 pages and not one dev response leads me to believe they will not be rethinking this.
Continue rants...
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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:49:00 -
[248]
Originally by: Agrigan 9 pages and not one dev response leads me to believe they will not be rethinking this.
Continue rants...
[WTS] Dev Responses cheap.... please send me iskies in game
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Silence Duegood
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:51:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Dari Ano
I agree, I think it nicely balances this feature. Sure, you can go for that maximum number of skillpoints per hour, but if you want to train anything else in those 180+ days, you'll be pulling your hair out 'till you look like an exclamation mark or worse. It requires some actual forethought about what you might be up to in the next six months, which I quite like. It gives an extra incentive to think about your character's development, and in some cases will allow you to reach your goals faster if you're willing to dedicate yourself to it.
Read this thread -
Link to thread
I've already mentioned how, as a vet, it's easy to spend six months training only 6 or 7 skills. If you think it's tough to find 6 or 7 skills with the same primary and secondary attributes you're fooling yourself.
As I mention in the other thread, this respec change does two things -
A. Makes EVE more boring by making more homogeneous. B. Hurts newer players and helps vets who already have more skill points (and I'm saying this while I own four accounts, two accounts having two characters with over 100 millions SPs).
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Kyra Felann
Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2009.02.12 21:43:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Marius Deterium One of the big advantages of Eve is to not be tied to some archtype. If you need DPS, get in a DPS ship, if you need tank, get in a tank ship. If you need reps, get in a RR ship.
Attribute respec just enhances this.
Everyone training everything at the same rate removes diversity.
This is a bad thing.
There's already not much diversity. Any character can fly any race's ships just as well as their own ships. Races and bloodlines only affect how quickly you learn, not what you can learn or how effective you are at it.
I disagree that everyone will train everything optimally fast. How many people do you think only train skills using 2-3 attributes for six months straight? At the very least, the character will be very one-sided for six months at a time. What if you haven't learned everything you want from, say perception and willpower after six months? If you change your attribute balance, you'll have to stop and start learning new skills. I think many people will probably just balance their attributes and maybe tweak them up or down for near-future skill plans.
If one could redistribute attributes every week or month, I'd agree. But six months is quite a long time.
Maybe I'm biased, though, since I have only one character and one account instead of ten different characters all with a very narrow specialization. If I want to do something in Eve, I have to train for it on my one and only character, so my skills are more broad and less specialized than a specialist character's would be.
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TigerXtrm
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.02.12 21:51:00 -
[251]
Edited by: TigerXtrm on 12/02/2009 21:53:51
Originally by: iudex First of all it's a good thing that you listen to your players, people have been asking for a chance to correct their beginners mistakes for years. You try to do things better than people ask, in order to make it awesome, but in this case you overdone it a little bit.
It is perfectly fine to give people the chance for a once-in-a-lifetime redistribution of attributes, that can be done earliest after e.g. 3 months of game-time, so that people make this decision in a moment where they can properly estimate the consequences.
But being able to redistribute every 6 months changes the whole skill training pattern, which has been a successful core feature of Eve for over 5 years. Now people will max one side for 6 months and then the other in the next 6 months. Everyone will be training everything at maximum speed and efficiency, no diffrence between the industrialist and the combat specialised pilot.
It's a little bit like in Starwars Galaxies:NGE, where your initial choice of your pathway doesn't matter, this arbitrariness isn't necessarily better. It also reduces the necessity of specialised alts (e.g. industry alts for combat pilots) and might even cost you subscriptions, since it will be much easer to re-spec and train the missing skill-trees. Eve will definitely lose something, if you introduce this the way it is now planned, and there's no way back once you introduce it, so please reconsider this feature again.
Agreed. I'm a fan of remapping attributes as any other noob who made a mistake in Charisma and only found out 3 months later, but changing it every 6 months will wreck the entire skill training system EVE is so famous for!!
The basic idea is good, it's just the proposed time period that's wrong. Not 6 months, make it AT LEAST once a year. Or tie it in with extreme amounts of ISK or dare I say real money like changing your portrait.
6 months is simply to low, period.
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Jalif
Black Sinisters Freedom of Elbas
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Posted - 2009.02.12 21:58:00 -
[252]
Hmmm.. couldn't be bothered to read whole thread but I see it this way:
1. To train all skills currently in eve would take how long? 20years no? Does it really matter if it becomes 18years?
2. Specialisation is the key in this game. Veterans are no better then 2year old characters. Only thing that veterans have is that they can do more. There will be no change in this after the patch.
3. Realize that the game is becomming less & less about the skillpoints. Its all about how smart you are. Either how good you can fly with your pvp ship or how good you are in marketing. It doesn't matter. Smart players are rewarded now instead of those who play the game longer
4. Less achura characters. Tbh, I saw a never stopping increasing of achura characters and I think CCP got "sick" of it. I would like to see diversity of faces in eve. And in ambulation that will become more important.
My conclussion: The re-spec isn't a bad thing at all.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:04:00 -
[253]
Originally by: gnshadowninja I love the system, You do realise that 6 months is a fairly long time? lol.
Shadow.
Six months may be a long time in other games, but not in Eve.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Silence Duegood
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:05:00 -
[254]
If we'll all be maxing two stats at any given time for optimal training times, why not just drop three irrelevant attributes from EVE, forego the new respec system, and just streamline the entire process.
Two stats, max training at all times. We all win.
Right?
Riiight??
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:05:00 -
[255]
I'm a thumbs down to the attribute redistribution ---
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Ergebt Euch
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Posted - 2009.02.13 01:23:00 -
[256]
@ 20 years of skilltime arguement, that people bring over and over again: If CCP wanted everyone to train faster, they could introduce +6 or +7 implants. Those who want all the skills, and only in this case the 20 years arguement is vaild, would gather enough assets after few monts or years to be able to afford them. Minmaxing simply sucks. There shouldn't be diffrent attributes for diffrent races or even better, no attributes at all, with minmaxing they are obsolete anyways.
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Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.13 01:25:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Ergebt Euch @ 20 years of skilltime arguement, that people bring over and over again: If CCP wanted everyone to train faster, they could introduce +6 or +7 implants. Those who want all the skills, and only in this case the 20 years arguement is vaild, would gather enough assets after few monts or years to be able to afford them. Minmaxing simply sucks. There shouldn't be diffrent attributes for diffrent races or even better, no attributes at all, with minmaxing they are obsolete anyways.
then what would be the point of different races
it good for different change cus then there are no charater like yours
everyone is unique
This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 06:31:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Jalif To train all skills currently in eve would take how long? 20years no? Does it really matter if it becomes 18years?
Depends on your attributes (obviously). At an even spread, it's about 26 years. This will bring it down to 22. The reason it matters is because of how many of those years hinge on two very specific combinations: Int/Mem and Per/Wil. That 26+:22 relation will almost directly mirror how much faster it takes to learn the Int/Mem and/or Per/Wil subsets, which takes up some 75% of all skills and 85% of all ranks.
Quote: Specialisation is the key in this game. Veterans are no better then 2year old characters. Only thing that veterans have is that they can do more. There will be no change in this after the patch.
Specialisation also means that you will quickly find the attribute pair that matters most to you, so the whole "who spends 6 months training a single type of skills" argument goes out the window.
Quote: Less achura characters.
No, more. Achura loses its only (tiny) drawback. Achura is still very well set up for the first double-speed learning phase. Achura still has the best attribute for the first period of baseline training. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
motomysz
No Limit Productions Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.02.13 07:03:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Silence Duegood If we'll all be maxing two stats at any given time for optimal training times, why not just drop three irrelevant attributes from EVE, forego the new respec system, and just streamline the entire process.
Two stats, max training at all times. We all win.
Right?
Riiight??
This is my train of thought exactly.
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Insa Rexion
Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ
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Posted - 2009.02.13 08:19:00 -
[260]
Originally by: Kytanos Termek I think it's a wonderful change. We can finally choose the race we want INSTEAD OF ACHURA 293-D.
Why would anybody dislike this. You get to fix mistakes made. You get to optimize your skills for training. There, is, no, downside.
everything you listed there can be done in a one time only respec
well mannered a**h*** |
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 09:07:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Armoured C
Originally by: Ergebt Euch @ 20 years of skilltime arguement, that people bring over and over again: If CCP wanted everyone to train faster, they could introduce +6 or +7 implants. Those who want all the skills, and only in this case the 20 years arguement is vaild, would gather enough assets after few monts or years to be able to afford them. Minmaxing simply sucks. There shouldn't be diffrent attributes for diffrent races or even better, no attributes at all, with minmaxing they are obsolete anyways.
then what would be the point of different races
it good for different change cus then there are no charater like yours
everyone is unique
What's the point of having races when re-specs will mean that everyone can have the attributes that they want?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.02.13 09:38:00 -
[262]
Originally by: Rodj Blake What's the point of having races when re-specs will mean that everyone can have the attributes that they want?
I think the race has been "RP only" the day every ship was available to every race.
You don't want to know how rude i would've been
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Cadde
Gallente Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM
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Posted - 2009.02.13 11:47:00 -
[263]
DIDN'T YOUR MOM TELL YOU CROSS TRAINING IS BAD FOR YOU???
Seriously, if it takes 4 years to get to a specialization skill group that floats your boat you with perfect attributes. How long will it take to get to BOTH that and other specialization group if you keep switching attributes every 6 months? The people complaining are doing so because they expect every mother to start training all those other skills that they "couldn't" train before but the truth is, people who cross train will keep doing so. At least now they can boost their training a little but they will NOT become specialists in all fields. It will STILL take 4 years to get to the same place as the other guy. And to become a 4 year specialist in two fields will STILL take 4+4 years, in other words, eight years!
MAYBE... JUST MAYBE!
Have it occured to you that CCP could have planned this? Could it be that CCP will start releasing skills that will "require" you to have really good attributes in perc/will for the first stage and then char/memory for the second stage. In other words, a very long time training those skills and then to get really specialized you are going to use completely different attributes for the next year?
I foresee an EvE with skills that would take 60 years to get that "all LVL 5" character of wtfpwn we see in EFT. Stop b**ching and start asking CCP why everybody is going to need this 6 month redistribution even if all they wanna do is fly an interceptor. Either way, this is going to be helpful for all those who picked the absolute opposite of what they really wanted. And if they find they actually wanted what they had at a later stage ... CCP won't have to listen to even MOAR b**tching!
YAAAAAR! When you emoragequit over this ... your stuff? I can has? PLOX? |
Evocationz
Amarr Terra Nostra
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Posted - 2009.02.13 11:52:00 -
[264]
pvp pilots WHINE |
Rennion
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Posted - 2009.02.13 12:29:00 -
[265]
Anyone saying that 6 months is not a long time needs a reality check. Long term multi-year players are not the norm in eve, you are not the majority you just think you are because you gravitate together.
Most players have come and gone within a 7 month timescale. Most players ahve accounts inactive for vast stretchs of time and a literal ****ton of the 2003 characters have had multiple owners.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 12:31:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Rennion Anyone saying that 6 months is not a long time needs a reality check. Long term multi-year players are not the norm in eve, you are not the majority you just think you are because you gravitate together.
Most players have come and gone within a 7 month timescale. Most players ahve accounts inactive for vast stretchs of time and a literal ****ton of the 2003 characters have had multiple owners.
The thing is, that those players who only last seven months will be at more of a disadvantage SP wise after these changes. |
Rennion
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Posted - 2009.02.13 12:35:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Rennion Anyone saying that 6 months is not a long time needs a reality check. Long term multi-year players are not the norm in eve, you are not the majority you just think you are because you gravitate together.
Most players have come and gone within a 7 month timescale. Most players ahve accounts inactive for vast stretchs of time and a literal ****ton of the 2003 characters have had multiple owners.
The thing is, that those players who only last seven months will be at more of a disadvantage SP wise after these changes.
They barely have time to benefit from learning skills either, eve is a ***** like that. What they can do is take a high int and a high perc allowing them to move swiftly through there baseline skills.
It also means that if they ever come back to eve they can switch roles fairly easily. Everyone is not looking at the bigger picture with changes coming to eve many of which are there to achive higher conversation rates and longer player retention.
What happens now when you are getting sick of eve at 6 months in is you have the option to completely switch direction and not be punished for it. |
ddanblack
Minmatar Zero Gravity Inc United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.13 13:02:00 -
[268]
Originally by: iudex
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate for example you won't complain that you started a hunter in Lotro instead of a warden, and therefore can't tank very well for the rest of your game-time. That's an initial choice which you make in your fist 3 mins of playing and which has a permanent impact on your game-play (again, except in SWG:NGE fail).
but in other mmos like LOTRO you can make more then one char on an account infaxt you can make about 8 so you dont need to respec you just make a new cha with the class you want were in eve its a big "NO you only can train one char!" yes being able to do it every 6 months could be a bad thing but not everyone will go half and then change every 6 months. |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 13:18:00 -
[269]
Originally by: Rennion Anyone saying that 6 months is not a long time needs a reality check. Long term multi-year players are not the norm in eve, you are not the majority you just think you are because you gravitate together.
Most players have come and gone within a 7 month timescale. Most players ahve accounts inactive for vast stretchs of time and a literal ****ton of the 2003 characters have had multiple owners.
And that's the whole problem. This change favours veterans and character farmers only. New players get screwed over in just about every way imaginable (well, apart from fixing those newbie mistakes, which could be fixed by limit the redsitribution to a once-in-a-lifetime change).
It's great for min-maxers (who don't need a buff) and for us Achuras (who don't need a buff). How is that a good change? |
Tivookz
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 13:22:00 -
[270]
Atribute respec is a great feature, please add it.
And to all you nay sayers. Let me introduce my middle finger to you. .|..
Tiv |
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Silence Duegood
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Posted - 2009.02.13 13:48:00 -
[271]
Originally by: Tivookz Atribute respec is a great feature, please add it.
And to all you nay sayers. Let me introduce my middle finger to you. .|..
Attribute respec is a terrible feature, please don't add it.
And to all you yay sayers. Let me introduce to you...
An actual argument
Sil
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MILK Monk
Rytiri Lva R.U.R.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 14:06:00 -
[272]
well, I do not understand the panic around this. Trying to see devil in "nothing"... hmm... basicaly what this change means in a single point?
Lets assume you will use the "ideal" optimized plan per 6 months - you will save approximatelly 1-2 months of learning skills = you can do things a bit sooner than you can do it now
THATS ALL... it is bull**** that you can maximize your character in everything and has some uberleet char... you will still specialize in what you want to train for at least 2-3 years and then maybe you can train other skills... so what is SO bad about it? Only one thing will change, you will be able to skill up faster, nothing else, people will still be focused on specific areas, they will just go to training more skills to lvl5 and I think that it will only lead to more spcialized chars then we have now... my 2c :) __________________________________ I do it myyyy wayyyy... Milky Way. |
iudex
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.02.13 14:12:00 -
[273]
Originally by: Silence Duegood
And to all you yay sayers. Let me introduce to you...
An actual argument
Sil
Yes that's a nice summary of the problem. And people will do excatly that, because that's the only rational way to behave. I sometimes jump from my +5 clone to a clone without implants on a certain attribute group, and watch the diffrence: it can be up to 6 hours a day. That's a huge diffrence if you sum this up for a year. Also i compare my sp with some older players who are living in 0.0, and since i've been playing on my +5 implant clone most of the time, i sometimes have more sp than someone started a year earlier. This shows that attributes do matter. A lot. Therefore it will be a must to min-maxing in order to stay competitive, those who won't do it will fall behind in their skilltraining.
_________________________________________ Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.81 // Angel Cartel +7.60 // Minmatar Republic -8.68 // Gallente Federation -9.88
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 14:16:00 -
[274]
Originally by: MILK Monk well, I do not understand the panic around this. Trying to see devil in "nothing"... hmm... basicaly what this change means in a single point?
Lets assume you will use the "ideal" optimized plan per 6 months - you will save approximatelly 1-2 months of learning skills = you can do things a bit sooner than you can do it now
THATS ALL... it is bull**** that you can maximize your character in everything and has some uberleet char... you will still specialize in what you want to train for at least 2-3 years and then maybe you can train other skills... so what is SO bad about it? Only one thing will change, you will be able to skill up faster, nothing else, people will still be focused on specific areas, they will just go to training more skills to lvl5 and I think that it will only lead to more spcialized chars then we have now... my 2c :)
The problem is that more experienced characters will benefit more than newer ones.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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iudex
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.02.13 14:21:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
The problem is that more experienced characters will benefit more than newer ones.
This is also an important point. And as someone said way above in this thread, if CCP wants vets to train faster, they could put some +7 implants in lp stores. This would also stabilize the lp market, if done properly, but without the cost of messing up a game mechanics that was fine for 5 years, making races irrelevant and removing all the diversity in character creation.
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Llyod Toad
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:10:00 -
[276]
Bump, this is staying front page on general discussion. One time repec, anything else is dumbing down the game. That is all.
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N'irrti
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2009.02.15 16:10:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Llyod Toad Bump, this is staying front page on general discussion. One time repec, anything else is dumbing down the game. That is all.
/signed
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Skjorta
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Posted - 2009.02.15 17:54:00 -
[278]
No offense to the hundred people above me.
But this ranks up there as one the dumbest threads ever.
Lots of people complaining because other people might get like 100 more skillpoints an hour from training?
People complaining about diversity? Are you ****ing kidding? Everybody is training different skills and still has to specialize in things if they want to win. You do realize what specialized means right? and realize even now an industrial pilot can train combat skills? yes? you do realize this? Because you are all acting like its never been done before and will be new and wreck everything.
If they want to specialize in both combat and industry...or exploration...or mining...or research...or capital ship production..or trading or..etc etc..then they are still going to be sub par to people who chose one and stuck with it..and....that is how things are right now.
Are you really to the point where this is the biggest complaint you can come up with?
if so, gg ccp.
bring back the falcon threads, cuz at least that one i could see their point.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.15 19:09:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Skjorta Lots of people complaining because other people might get like 100 more skillpoints an hour from training?
No.
People are complaining that this will make attributes, bloodlines, and race completely redundant as game mechanics — they no longer serve no purpose and are completely interchangeable. People are also complaining that this will unduly benefit older characters, rather than the newbies who might have done some mistakes in their point distribution — the ones the respec functionality is supposed to help.
No offense to you, but you've misunderstood the nature of the complaint.
——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.15 19:17:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Skjorta ... emorage...
If they want to specialize in both combat and industry...or exploration...or mining...or research...or capital ship production..or trading or..etc etc..then they are still going to be sub par to people who chose one and stuck with it..and....that is how things are right now.
That is how things are right now, but they are about to change. The underlined part shows that you didn't understand the upcoming changes. Noone will be sub par anymore, no matter what he's traingin, as long as he respecs fot the training period. The miner will be training combat skills as fast as the combat pilot, afte rhe has respecced. There won't be "miners" or "combat-pilots" anymore - no justification for racial division or attributes at all anymore. This not "how things are right now".
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Skjorta
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Posted - 2009.02.15 21:52:00 -
[281]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Skjorta ... emorage...
If they want to specialize in both combat and industry...or exploration...or mining...or research...or capital ship production..or trading or..etc etc..then they are still going to be sub par to people who chose one and stuck with it..and....that is how things are right now.
That is how things are right now, but they are about to change. The underlined part shows that you didn't understand the upcoming changes. Noone will be sub par anymore, no matter what he's traingin, as long as he respecs fot the training period. The miner will be training combat skills as fast as the combat pilot, afte rhe has respecced. There won't be "miners" or "combat-pilots" anymore - no justification for racial division or attributes at all anymore. This not "how things are right now".
See, you're wrong tho.
Just because a miner can train combat skills...they don't get a super 20m bonus to combat skill overnight.
They'll still be miners with some combat skills that suck compared to somebody who is full spec'd combat.
You also may not realize that there are no classes in eve. You can be both a miner and a combat pilot. Being both means you sacrifice being great in one and accept being mediocre in both. It's actually one of the great things of the game, no class skills etc. You should read up on it!
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teoliit
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Posted - 2009.02.15 22:25:00 -
[282]
So... older players can consistently gain even more SP / hour than new players compared to what they do now.
Why is that such a big deal? New players can never catch up in terms of SP anyway and if 50m+ characters are training long skills they're not getting as much out of those SP that they're earning. If they can only train 6 skills in 6 months then I don't mind if they can train them slightly faster, it doesn't matter. You're not getting much for your SP anyway. The gulf between the old and the new doesn't increase in proportionally to the SP
New players won't train any slower because of this change, and they'll still be able to reach a point where their characters are useful despite older players training faster. If you take issue with new players being too far behind then you should focus your efforts on some larger restructuring of the skill system.
The only problem I have with the update is that people might feel the need to minmax their attributes at the expense of their enjoyment of the game, which is really bad. Removing base attribute customization would be the best way to go. Make training speed a function of wealth
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Johnnyan
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Posted - 2009.02.15 22:34:00 -
[283]
All the pvp vets obsessed with the coolness of this "feature" should at least have the decency to accept that this is against the entire history of the game. When this "6 months reborn" will be implemented the only real difference between the people of Eve will be their avatar, everything else will be nullified, for me, this is hard to accept, i really thought we were smarter than this. And CCP, if you really want people to be equal, why not take out the attributes entirely, the way i see your new "feature" will mostly help the old players learning everything at max speed.
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.16 01:03:00 -
[284]
I find attribute re-spec annoying *not* because it will give noobs and/or vets some extra SP here or there.
I dislike it because it makes attributes meaningless. It also kills immersion. Attributes are meant to be the defining talents of a person. A relatively fixed set of genetically determined abilities that define the fundamental predispositions of a person.
Re-spec not only makes a mockery out of that, but also means that overtime people will approach a median value.
Might just as well take out attributes and make everybodies character have the equivalent of 7/7/7/7/6 (simplified example - if you think about it you'll get the point) as a constant in the training formula. That's close to what you get with regular re-spec anyway.
The only good argument for respec is noob mistakes. Easily resolved by allowing noobs to re-spec within first 8-12 weeks or so. By then they'll understand the principles, corp mates will have pointed out mistakes and/or they read recommendations on forum.
If we have to have re-spec to shut up the whiners make it more sensible by allowing to exchange 1 point every 4 (e.g.) months. That would allow for a very gradual adaption that's more credible immersion-wise and doesn't totally kill attributes as a game feature that has any meaning
Also - by not opening the floodgates on attributes CCP would also slow down the lame whiners demands for SP reshuffle (not only sure to come - but also already demanded in the past). --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE |
Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2009.02.16 01:18:00 -
[285]
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 16/02/2009 01:20:15
Originally by: Tippia People are complaining that this will make attributes, bloodlines, and race completely redundant as game mechanics ù they no longer serve any purpose and are completely interchangeable. People are also complaining that this will unduly benefit older characters, rather than the newbies who might have done some mistakes in their point distribution ù the ones the respec functionality is supposed to help.
If that's what CCP wanted to accomplish, they could just remove attributes outright and start seeing those +7 implantsà The effect will be much the same. If it's not what they want to do, they need to seriously rethink how respeccing is going to work.
Good. Bloodlines and race should be interchangeable. People should select characters based on whose backstory is most appealing, not on who's stats are considered optimal for a particular path. I'd be just fine if the only things that differed between character types during creation was the skills associated with the school that was selected.
And +7 plants is not a balanced alternative to this. The only people who would use them are the ones who use +5's now... those who are either really rich or who never expect to die. And it's still mainly going to have the most impact on people who have been in the game longer, which is another complaint people have been making about attribute respeccing.
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Spurty
Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 01:29:00 -
[286]
if ccp really wanted character creation to mean anything beyond the first 6months, they would have made cross training racial ships impossible.
So, you're just plain wrong and whining about something that will help 100% of the players out. BrRAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiNNNNNNZzzzzzzzzzzz |
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.16 01:58:00 -
[287]
Edited by: Glengrant on 16/02/2009 01:59:18
Originally by: Spurty if ccp really wanted character creation to mean anything beyond the first 6months, they would have made cross training racial ships impossible.
You are confused. Restricting cross trainig would have been a stupid and illogical restriction. Skills cost you time. For every skill you train you don't train all the rest. That leads to a variety of specializations.
Base attributes are a fixed number of points (34) you get once (eventually +8/9/10 for training skills and +0 to 5 for implants) for free at start.
Originally by: Spurty So, you're just plain wrong and whining about something that will help 100% of the players out.
How is making attributes meaningless helping anybody? Please note that (probably) nobody is against allwoing noobs (once) to fix early mistakes.
But this (regular respec for everybody) effectively kills attributes as a relevant game feature.
To avoid misunderstandings - I didn't know much about how attributes influence training or what I would need most later when I set my attributes - so they are far from optimal for my skill paths. But I'd rather have them meaning then being able to optimize them in regular intervals. Replacing them with everage values (in the training formula) for everybody and taking them out of the UI would have almost the same long-term effect.
CCP knows this. They just shrug it off. It's not a core feature that will destroy the game if messed up so they sacrifice it to get some short-term happy points from customers who don't understand what they are asking for. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE |
Johnnyan Mark1
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Posted - 2009.02.16 01:59:00 -
[288]
Spurty, that was just silly.
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.02.16 02:40:00 -
[289]
One respec: Yes
Multiple respecs: No ...
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SketS47
Minmatar Alpha Intellectual Military Solutions
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Posted - 2009.02.16 11:34:00 -
[290]
/signed
to easy to train skills, its a gamekiller for alts and vets!
so get it out Only idiots quote themselves -SketS47- |
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Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.16 12:58:00 -
[291]
Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 16/02/2009 12:59:06 Umm, Americianisation imho, don't do it CCP, you saw what haappened to your banks when they took the Americian way and ran with it.
Why ruin a unique product, you guys at CCP are doing rather well at present, you're the most profitable thing in Iceland and your letting your greed genes get the better of you.
The attribute change mechanism is a very crude, instant gratification isk sink that will actually hurt those who use it more than it benifits them..... ..... now if you had come up with new drug products that enhances for a usefull period (30 days) a specific attribute point while reducing another by double the amount, but thats a lot more work than just changing numbers in upto 6 cells in the database: meaning you could have had, new base materials, new harvester equipments, new arrays, new skills, making new opportunities for players on many levels and grown the low and 0.0 game, but nah.....
...... continues overleaf. |
Eight Bit
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.16 14:28:00 -
[292]
Edited by: Eight Bit on 16/02/2009 14:30:06 What if they'd make it so that it will cost isk to let your brain be reprogrammed but there would be a chance that you will lose SP's in the affected attrib skills during the procedure?
And ofcourse incorporate it in the backstory... explaining why you can't do it more than once every six months without increasing the risk.
For instance:
Change attribs with a clean slate will have 15% chance of brain damage (losing SP)
Change attribs <1 month will have a chance of 90% of brain damage
Change attribs between 1 and 2 months after an attrib change will have a chance of 80% of brain damage
Change attribs between 2 and 3 months after an attrib change will have a chance of 70% of brain damage
Change attribs between 3 and 4 months after an attrib change will have a chance of 60% of brain damage
And so forth...
This would make people with high SP think twice before doing an operation like that too often and they would REALLY have to want it
Shoot!
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Xianbei
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Posted - 2009.02.16 17:45:00 -
[293]
whats all the fuss over achura ?
its not the best race choice
amarr khanid cybernight is, not to mention a few others that have nearly identical attributes
eve tribune did an article on this
find it yourself
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5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.02.16 18:11:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Xianbei whats all the fuss over achura ?
its not the best race choice
amarr khanid cybernight is, not to mention a few others that have nearly identical attributes
eve tribune did an article on this
find it yourself
I figured this out for myself when I rerolled after a month on trial.
<--- Ahem.
Though I do have an alt I was given that has far too much memory for my liking.
I still think keep base attributes as unable to be altered, just the 5 points you gave yourself in creation.
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.16 18:13:00 -
[295]
I don't care... Faster training is what I want, this is what gives me faster training. I think it's cool. - - -
Originally by: CCP Prism X I can invent ways to get free candy for you where the implementation is so bad that you'd never want to see candy again in your whole life.
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Dani SP
Rupture Farms Mining
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Posted - 2009.02.16 20:26:00 -
[296]
Originally by: Rodj Blake The problem is that more experienced characters will benefit more than newer ones.
Im just a noob and Im against this new "feature"... but I think you are wrong here.
As far as I undestood you can play with the +5 free points, those which were chosen at character creation.
k lets say a noob is: 12, 10, 9, 9, 7 and a pr0 got these: 26, 24, 24, 21, 18
Obviously the relative benefit/change/whatever of changing 5 attirbute points is higher on the noob, as they can represent 50% his attribute points. When talking about the pro, 5 points is just 20%.
More specifically: a noob got 7intelligence and he adds +5... becomes 12. Like almost double he had. A pro got 23 points and becomes 28... "who cares". OK its a change but its smaller.
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Kyanzes
Amarr Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2009.02.16 20:49:00 -
[297]
YES. PLEASE IMPLEMENT IT! IMPLEMENT IT NOW! AWESOME FEATURE, MUCH NEEDED! --------------------------------------------- Unclouded by conscience, remorse or delusions of morality. |
Spurty
Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 21:37:00 -
[298]
Originally by: Spurty if ccp really wanted character creation to mean anything beyond the first 6months, they would have made cross training racial ships impossible.
So, you're just plain wrong and whining about something that will help 100% of the players out.
I'm waiting for how any of this is incorrect factually. I can see how perceptually it matters, but facts trump feelings. BrRAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiNNNNNNZzzzzzzzzzzz |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 21:49:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Spurty
Originally by: Spurty if ccp really wanted character creation to mean anything beyond the first 6months, they would have made cross training racial ships impossible.
So, you're just plain wrong and whining about something that will help 100% of the players out.
I'm waiting for how any of this is incorrect factually. I can see how perceptually it matters, but facts trump feelings.
It doesn't really contain any facts, but rather a non-sequitur assumption, so…
Character creation currently does matter beyond 6 months since it determines how fast you train and which corps you can join. It also matters, to some degree, in the RP/meta-game since it occasionally determines how people will act against you.
You're also wrong about why people are whining: yes, it will help 100% of the players, but not equally. It will help veterans, character farmers and Achura more. It also invalidates a number of existing mechanics, for no good reason. That is why people are whining. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Spurty
Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 22:27:00 -
[300]
Edited by: Spurty on 16/02/2009 22:27:59 ok, just as long as I know someone else can see that there is nothing in this game that player A can do that player B can not.
Unlike WOW, a Fighter can't cast Wizard spells. Now that would make 'choice' matter.
carry on with your tiresome whining ;0
BrRAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiNNNNNNZzzzzzzzzzzz |
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Nex Prenuncius
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Posted - 2009.02.16 22:32:00 -
[301]
Wow I am so gonna "WIN EVE" when this change goes through. It will make me so freaking ub3r and unstoppable that not even a 1000 man fleet of dreads + 100 titans will be able to stop me after I change around the 5 measly points from my character every 6 months. /sarcasm off
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Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.02.16 22:38:00 -
[302]
tbh this will ruin eve. don't let this go through ccp
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SillyWaif
Galactic Kingdom
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Posted - 2009.02.16 22:42:00 -
[303]
Edited by: SillyWaif on 16/02/2009 22:42:30 Apparently lots of previous posters haven't even tried the feature. This character can only take away 1 point from charisma and put it elsewhere, to name an example. If I would put it in perception or willpower it would save me 4d on a 8 month training schedule. The change for me is marginal at best.
WTF is the fuss about...
Edit: typos.
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Nex Prenuncius
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Posted - 2009.02.16 22:46:00 -
[304]
Originally by: SillyWaif Edited by: SillyWaif on 16/02/2009 22:42:30 Apparently lots of previous posters haven't even tried the feature. This character can only take away 1 point from charisma and put it elsewhere, to name an example. If I would put it in perception or willpower it would save me 4d on a 8 month training schedule. The change for me is marginal at best.
WTF is the fuss about...
Edit: typos.
Some people always need something to cry over.
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Kraven Executus
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Posted - 2009.02.16 23:19:00 -
[305]
lol the OP rerolled Asian Invasion to "optimize" his stats and he doesn't want the people who stuck with their original toons to be able to optimize without rerolling.
fail post, imo.
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Praetor Imperious
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Posted - 2009.02.16 23:19:00 -
[306]
lol
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Raneru
Euphoria Released Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.16 23:48:00 -
[307]
Edited by: Raneru on 16/02/2009 23:49:17 Why are people proclaiming this feature will be the end of the world? I have actually tried the feature (crazy, i know!) on SISI and its great.
Once I have rebalanced my attributes to what I would have set them to 4 years ago had I known what I was doing I'll very likely leave them at that. My alts balancing was pretty much perfect so I wont need to tweak that really.
Its not like you can suddenly pile every point into willpower and perception. You can only go down to the base points for your bloodline, and up to a maximum iirc.
and please, don't call them toons. This isnt a Disney production.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.16 23:55:00 -
[308]
Originally by: Da'iel Zehn wow... haven't heard about this. I'd like to redo my atributes as I had no idea what I was doing when I first started.
Yes, the people complaining most likely rerolled their char 4-5 times or had a friend or guide to skill attributes.
I had no clue, but got kinda lucky... not extremely though
Wipe out the 800k starting skillpoints back down to my measly 60k or whatever it was and hit your first 1mil then think about re-rolling for attributes
Not enough of a game breaker to compare it to SWG I think, but then you could make it so that you can only re-spec attributes after hitting your first 10mil SP, or something of that sort. ------------
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.16 23:57:00 -
[309]
Originally by: Kraven Executus lol the OP rerolled Asian Invasion to "optimize" his stats and he doesn't want the people who stuck with their original toons to be able to optimize without rerolling.
fail post, imo.
Agreed.
People who re-rolled after the 800k starting SP change, or rerolled at all should have no say in this.
-techzer0, training like a ****** since '06 ------------
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
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Taylor timenenzi
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Posted - 2009.02.17 00:06:00 -
[310]
Originally by: Stab Wounds tbh this will ruin eve. don't let this go through ccp
Ya becasue that hasnt been said about EVERY SINGAL CHANGE OR ADDITION TO THE GAME.
Right?
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cerbus
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Posted - 2009.02.17 00:25:00 -
[311]
Edited by: cerbus on 17/02/2009 00:32:30
I have 26 Charisma without Charisma Learning skills to V
YAY for CCP! If it is only 1 attribute every 6months its not that big a deal! Plus i have paid for my useless skill for the last two years, I deserve some temporal realignment.
I have an alt that was created 1 YEAR after this one, Caldari Achura character of course.
Cerbus -> 35,629,184 SP Alt -> 38,128,958 SP
Cerbus.
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Al Thorr
Caldari The Wheel
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Posted - 2009.02.17 00:31:00 -
[312]
Iclandic logic ... is light dependant.
"You cant polish a turd" - The new rendered font is living proof.
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cpt Mark
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Posted - 2009.02.17 00:32:00 -
[313]
The people have spoken,
The votes have been counted,
Iudex you have been evicted.
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Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
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Posted - 2009.02.17 01:20:00 -
[314]
6 months is a long time. I predict many people will whine when they realize they will train really fast in one thing...then when they want to train something else...they still have months left before respecing and training anything else will be slow as hell.
6 months...That's between 8 and 10 Mil SP. (Give or take a bit) You better have one hell of a skill plan if this is the route you want to take.
EVE MON is going to need a programing for figuring out the most efficient specing when dealing with multiple class skills.
I made it smaller for you Navigater...My name is in it. That's the minimum required for a sig if I remember correctly |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.17 06:31:00 -
[315]
Originally by: SillyWaif Apparently lots of previous posters haven't even tried the feature. This character can only take away 1 point from charisma and put it elsewhere, to name an example. If I would put it in perception or willpower it would save me 4d on a 8 month training schedule. The change for me is marginal at best.
…and how much can you take away from the other two attributes you don't need? That is the point: it's a min-maxer and character farmer's dream. You've tried it on SiSi — fine — but you haven't pushed it to the extreme it will be pushed if it goes live.
The difference isn't marginal either. Going from a balanced attribute set to a min-maxed means a reduction in training time of roughly 25%. You know that old "it takes 25 years to learn all skills in EVE" adage? No longer true — it now takes 18… (yes, it's a silly and extreme example, but it shows the scale of the change).
Originally by: Karrade Krise 6 months is a long time. I predict many people will whine when they realize they will train really fast in one thing...then when they want to train something else...they still have months left before respecing and training anything else will be slow as hell.
6 months is nothing, especially since the attribute combinations are very static. 75% of the skills in the game and 80%+ of the ranks use either Int+Mem or Per+Wil. Also, 10Mil sp is less than four Rank 4 skills trained from zero to lvl V. Now consider how low Rank 4 is…
Again, the distribution is easy: General support skills: Int+Mem Science: Int+Mem. Pew-pew: Per+Wil. Ships: Per+Wil.
That constitutes the bulk of the skills in the game, and almost all the "new fun toys" skills. You should have roughly zero problems creating a 6-month training schedule based on those two (or, indeed, any two) attribute combinations, in particular once you start to go after the Rank 5 (and above) skills. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.17 08:20:00 -
[316]
Originally by: Karrade Krise 6 months is a long time. I predict many people will whine when they realize they will train really fast in one thing...then when they want to train something else...they still have months left before respecing and training anything else will be slow as hell.
6 months...That's between 8 and 10 Mil SP. (Give or take a bit) You better have one hell of a skill plan if this is the route you want to take.
EVE MON is going to need a programing for figuring out the most efficient specing when dealing with multiple class skills.
But that's the point!
Old timers will have no problem at all spending six months training up using only two attributes.
Meanwhile, new players will be left with a choice of either gimping their training speed relative to the veterans or gimping their fun.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.17 08:21:00 -
[317]
Originally by: Kraven Executus lol the OP rerolled Asian Invasion to "optimize" his stats and he doesn't want the people who stuck with their original toons to be able to optimize without rerolling.
fail post, imo.
So it wouldn't have been a fail post if I'd have made it?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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