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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 27 post(s) |
Miss Moonwych
Formedian Shadows
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Posted - 2009.02.22 18:59:00 -
[331]
Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 22/02/2009 19:03:52
 Originally by: Space Wanderer
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 22/02/2009 16:55:20
Originally by: Miss Moonwych
edit2 My working hypothesis:
- 0.40% wormholes lead to empire
- 0.26% wormholes lead to unkown space
- 0.20% wormholes lead to 0.0
- 0.16% wormholes lead to harder unkown space
Found two wormholes leading to w-space (actually was a single system connected both to highsec and 0.0). Both WHs leading to k-space (highsec and empire) were 0.40%, while from k-space the situation was the following:
High sec:
- 0.26% wormhole lead to unknown space (judging from the stuff inside was some of the "easy" space).
0.0 (HMF-9D, fountain)
- 0.40% wormhole lead to SAME unknown space of WH above.....
What i found in the unknown system were several anomalies with sleepers in them. Couldn't try them due to time constraints, but in case someone wants to try it, the WH in HMF-9D wil be stable for more than one day from now, so you have time to go there and scan for it.
Unfortunately the 0.40% in 0.0 leading to unknown space seem to not fit your hypothesis. Still... were are you scanning? 0.0, lowsec, highsec?
I did the same kind of thing. Went through a 0.16% wormhole, then scanned another wormhole in that W-system (0.20% in WH space) which I went through and landed in an lowsec system. The wormhole there was a 0.40% wormhole (back to WH-space).
So at least some 0.40% sigs lead to WH-space. But for now almost all 0.16 and 0.26 sigs lead to WH-space.
Regards,
M.M.
Btw. the two systems connected to the W-system were only 12 jumps apart...
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Cruncher McSpacerock
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Posted - 2009.02.22 19:11:00 -
[332]
I've played with the scanning and there is one simple thing that would make my eyes hurt a lot less right now.
Center Camera on a probe.
When you are arranging probes in patterns nearby eachother, This will make it a LOT easier than swinging the camera as it points towards the sun, while your site is in a .25 AU locale on the edge of the solar system.
Also, not sure if its a bug, but if you adjust a probe's position, and then try and adjust a second probe's position without hitting 'analyze', the first probe jerks back to its last position.
To combat this I hit analyze after moving every probe, but unfortunately, this causes the probes to wait for the last one to finish moving and then run a scan for every time you hit the button. Adjusting 6 probes in this fashion causes me to have to wait 6x a normal scan time to receive results.
I commend you, CCP. Its tough to cope with change but this seems promising.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.22 19:24:00 -
[333]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Ki Tarra
I pointed out in the other thread, that if you allow players to warp to both points obtained from a three-probe scan then you allow them to create ultra-deep safe spots.
I have not seen any further comments on this topic. I would like confirmation that the mechanic does work like you originally stated, and that you are not planning to change it:
The result doesn't become warpable until you get a hit with four probes?
This shoudn't be possible, I'm 95% sure that those points aren't warpable. I'd test it, but... the map's broken :P
I can confirm that. The double results deriving from a 3-probe scan always half of the sig strength of a 4-probe scan. Their maximum sig str is 50% which means they are never warpable.
Only situation in which a reslt from a 3-probe scan is warpable is when the two points are so close that they collapse into the true one. But that is not an issue, of course.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.02.22 19:28:00 -
[334]
O yea now i remember one thing.
Astrometrics was 1 probe per skill level iirc (thus lvl4 needed to actually scan for anything)
Why not change it to 2x more probes per level?
1/2/4/8/16
You can start scanning for stuff with lower levels and with higher levels you can actually cover more points at the same time.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.22 19:32:00 -
[335]
Originally by: Miss Moonwych
Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 22/02/2009 19:03:52
I did the same kind of thing. Went through a 0.16% wormhole, then scanned another wormhole in that W-system (0.20% in WH space) which I went through and landed in an lowsec system. The wormhole there was a 0.40% wormhole (back to WH-space).
So at least some 0.40% sigs lead to WH-space. But for now almost all 0.16 and 0.26 sigs lead to WH-space.
This last observation fits my experience as well. Still... we need a new working hypothesis. Another possibility could be that the sig size depends on the stability of the WH, but that already seem busted by the observation that two ends of the same WH have different sig size. Another possibility could be that sig size depends on a combination of characteristics. Or it might be just a random generation (Greyscale, that would be VERY VERY evil on us dedicated code reverse engineers  ).
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Hoshi
Eviction.
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Posted - 2009.02.22 20:00:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Astrometrics was 1 probe per skill level iirc (thus lvl4 needed to actually scan for anything)
3 probes at level 0, 4 at level 1 and 8 at level 5 is what it's like atm so no you don't need level 4 to find anything.
----------------------------------------
A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.22 20:15:00 -
[337]
Suggestion:
I just found some wormholes, and the only way I could gather some information about them was a "show info" which gave me some useful, but scant, information:
"This wormhole will last more than one day (or less than one day)"
"This wormhole has not been sensibly perturbed"
Why not introducing some skills/equipment to gather some more information, at least for covop pilots? Not necessarily something very precise (like "this wormhole will carry 158009.43 m3"), but a bit more helpful. For instance people will be interested in know whether they can carry their preferred ship inside and back again (so the information might be "this wormhole is stable enough to let pass more than one battleship", or something similar).
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.02.22 20:25:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Hoshi
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Astrometrics was 1 probe per skill level iirc (thus lvl4 needed to actually scan for anything)
3 probes at level 0, 4 at level 1 and 8 at level 5 is what it's like atm so no you don't need level 4 to find anything.
ah its ok then. Didnt know it starts from 4 at lvl1 not 1.
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Bo Kantrel
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.22 20:28:00 -
[339]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Yes, the map is broken. We're very sorry about this. The whole thing had to be recoded more or less from scratch to work in scene2, and it still has a few kinks to be worked out.
What is the timeframe on the map getting fixed?
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Meckomec
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Posted - 2009.02.22 21:15:00 -
[340]
Originally by: Bo Kantrel
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Yes, the map is broken. We're very sorry about this. The whole thing had to be recoded more or less from scratch to work in scene2, and it still has a few kinks to be worked out.
What is the timeframe on the map getting fixed?
Don't add that signature spot, I have no trouble finding sites as it is, just takes a little more thinking and tweakin, and I cant even use the 1024 AU probes, the core is all you need :D
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Jifai
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Posted - 2009.02.22 21:35:00 -
[341]
I agree. Those partial solution markers (circle/dots) that used to be on Sisi are unnecessary. Please leave them out. Any exploration site can be scanned in 10-15 minutes on sisi as it is.
Btw, love the new system. Very engaging.
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Cailais
Amarr
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.02.22 22:33:00 -
[342]
Originally by: Jifai
I agree. Those partial solution markers (circle/dots) that used to be on Sisi are unnecessary. Please leave them out. Any exploration site can be scanned in 10-15 minutes on sisi as it is.
Btw, love the new system. Very engaging.
I think the partial solution markers should stay in. You're lucky - you've seen the system with the partial solutions included and can extrapolate from that. A new player won't have that advantage and from a 'new player experience' point of view it would be needlessly complex.
Equally 'where' the partial solution lies might impact upon your choices - maybe running a site close (within 14AU) to a gate is not a great idea?
C.
Originally by: Capa
So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.22 23:42:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Cailais
I think the partial solution markers should stay in. You're lucky - you've seen the system with the partial solutions included and can extrapolate from that. A new player won't have that advantage and from a 'new player experience' point of view it would be needlessly complex.
Besides, it just doesn't make sense to not show the markers. The markers are nothing more than data that you could extrapolate on your own by working on it. While I am all for complex scan mechanics, I think that attempting to increase the difficulty my designing a compeltely stupid user interface is the wrong way to go for it. I have tried the system without the markers and I can find almost any site without the markers. Still past the initial novelty it's boring and stupid. I think markers should stay.
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Galston
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Posted - 2009.02.23 00:43:00 -
[344]
Edited by: Galston on 23/02/2009 00:45:27
Some sort of indication on the solar system map showing when a celestial body was inside the scan range of a probe would be a great help. It can be a bit tricky now. Say, the icon turns green if it's in range of a probe.
Another useful small UI tweak would be making it easier to change scan range of probes. As it is now, shift-selecting all the probes in the probe window and right-clicking on one to change its scan range only changes that one, it should change all highlighted ones. A hotkey to change probe range on selected probes would be nice |
KhanSingh
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Posted - 2009.02.23 01:31:00 -
[345]
To the two guys who say they have no trouble finding sites within 15 minutes without the visual cues, might be true for the cosmic anomaly sigs which have a huge sig strength, otherwise, I just don't believe you. With the map broken, no way to highlight the probes and no visual cues, if you find anything with a low sig strength, or even come close, you were just lucky.
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Miss Moonwych
Formedian Shadows
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Posted - 2009.02.23 02:43:00 -
[346]
Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 23/02/2009 02:47:03
Originally by: KhanSingh
To the two guys who say they have no trouble finding sites within 15 minutes without the visual cues, might be true for the cosmic anomaly sigs which have a huge sig strength, otherwise, I just don't believe you. With the map broken, no way to highlight the probes and no visual cues, if you find anything with a low sig strength, or even come close, you were just lucky.
Hmm. I've found the hardest of sites: 0.05% base sites. Not saying that was easy, but it definitely wasn't luck  .
Lets just say that I think the current situation is very good for practice and is quite a pure form of exploration. Essentially you're working with just one number and tactically moving around an object that can detect a (faint) signal from space. And you're integrating those resuts into a precise position of three dimensions in space. I think graphical feedback in the form of dots and circles is going to be useful and its gonna look cool but I don't think its gonna make things much faster than what can be achieved now. Especially when deviation is introduced: I will probably completely ignore the deviating distances and the graphical features based on those distances and keep focusing on precise strength.
Of course they could also start deviating strengths... that would be evil. 
Regards,
M.M.
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DaReaper
Net 7
The Last Brigade
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Posted - 2009.02.23 04:26:00 -
[347]
so um.. does the red circle and stuff still apply? cause for the life of me no matter how many probes i drop i can;t seem to isloate and make anything even remotly close to finding work
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Phlegmatia
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Posted - 2009.02.23 05:49:00 -
[348]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Originally by: Cailais
I think the partial solution markers should stay in. You're lucky - you've seen the system with the partial solutions included and can extrapolate from that. A new player won't have that advantage and from a 'new player experience' point of view it would be needlessly complex.
Besides, it just doesn't make sense to not show the markers. The markers are nothing more than data that you could extrapolate on your own by working on it. While I am all for complex scan mechanics, I think that attempting to increase the difficulty my designing a compeltely stupid user interface is the wrong way to go for it. I have tried the system without the markers and I can find almost any site without the markers. Still past the initial novelty it's boring and stupid. I think markers should stay.
You can't work out the precise direction. a point in space is unrealistic. The visual cues should be a Sphere if you are getting a result from 1 Probe that shows the estimated range from the probe. Basically, a bubble in a bubble, the Outside bubble being the probe's range, and the inside bubble being the estimated range of the result. That way you have a bit more information than nothing, and you don't have a Dot in space saying "Put ur probe here." You should only have partial solution "dots" once you have 2 or more probes in space, collecting data on the same targets. and to be honest, all 2 probes would be able to tell ya realistically, is the position on 2 Axis ( basically, a line in space) you'd need a 3rd probe to get any sort of Dot.
Also, you don't have to have 4 probes to get a warp-able solution. I've scanned pretty much all of the sites I've found with only 3. Very few have needed 4.
-Zoltar
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.02.23 05:49:00 -
[349]
Maybe I'm being too fearful, but it looks like my Sisters Probe Launcher just became a regular Probe Launcher. It cost quite a bit, is there going to be a commensurate bonus for those of us who own this module?
Corp killboard
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Zoltar Torzoid
Gallente
Shadow Company
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Posted - 2009.02.23 05:50:00 -
[350]
Edited by: Zoltar Torzoid on 23/02/2009 05:51:20
Edited by: Zoltar Torzoid on 23/02/2009 05:50:01
Stupid thing won't remember who I am. post before the last post was me.
@ Jimer: the sisters launcher still gives you an added bonus to scan strength. It's still better than the standard launchers
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.02.23 05:52:00 -
[351]
Also, is there any workaround for the map bugs I'm seeing? I can't seem to find a reliable way to be able to get to the solar system view and back without being stuck with a blank grey screen or my ship vanishing.
Corp killboard
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.02.23 05:53:00 -
[352]
Originally by: Zoltar Torzoid
Edited by: Zoltar Torzoid on 23/02/2009 05:51:20
Edited by: Zoltar Torzoid on 23/02/2009 05:50:01
Stupid thing won't remember who I am. post before the last post was me.
@ Jimer: the sisters launcher still gives you an added bonus to scan strength. It's still better than the standard launchers
Odd. Maybe I'm in the wrong ship, but I could have sworn I had a Sisters launcher in my covops hold (I've got a recon probe launcher on TQ) and it's just called the "Expandend Probe Launcher". Is there still a "Sisters" launcher? If so, I'm an idiot and I'm in the wrong ship- maybe on a different clone than I thought.
Corp killboard
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Zoltar Torzoid
Gallente
Shadow Company
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Posted - 2009.02.23 06:09:00 -
[353]
I don't know about the Recon Variant. the Sister's Exploration probe launcher that is currently on TQ, is also on SiSi. It's got a bonus.
-Zoltar
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.02.23 06:17:00 -
[354]
These map bugs are making it pretty much impossible to do any realistic testing. One mouse-click in the wrong place (and I'm not sure yet what qualifies) and you're screwed and have to relog.
I've already seen several bug report IDs so I'm not gonna clutter up the queue with more, but is there any word on when this might be fixed?
Corp killboard
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Miss Moonwych
Formedian Shadows
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Posted - 2009.02.23 07:18:00 -
[355]
Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 23/02/2009 07:23:17
Devs: am I correct that a trial acount character with say a Heron and lets say lvl2 artro skill and asrto triangulation at lvl 2 is supposed to be able to scan all wormholes and all sites apart from only the hardest?
Or am I overlooking something?
Regards,
M.M.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.02.23 09:14:00 -
[356]
Edited by: Jimer Lins on 23/02/2009 09:14:33
I'm curious about the "dot" issue- is the fact that it does not appear a bug or is that an intended thing?
Another thing I noticed is that if you relog and reconnect to active probes in space (awesome feature, btw), you'll often get duplicate rows in the probe list. Also, two probes getting a hit on the same result give distances separately but don't indicate which probe got the result.
And yes, you can't recover probes.
Corp killboard
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DeepBlue
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.23 09:26:00 -
[357]
Originally by: Miss Moonwych
Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 23/02/2009 02:47:03
Originally by: KhanSingh
To the two guys who say they have no trouble finding sites within 15 minutes without the visual cues, might be true for the cosmic anomaly sigs which have a huge sig strength, otherwise, I just don't believe you. With the map broken, no way to highlight the probes and no visual cues, if you find anything with a low sig strength, or even come close, you were just lucky.
Hmm. I've found the hardest of sites: 0.05% base sites. Not saying that was easy, but it definitely wasn't luck .
Lets just say that I think the current situation is very good for practice and is quite a pure form of exploration. Essentially you're working with just one number and tactically moving around an object that can detect a (faint) signal from space. And you're integrating those resuts into a precise position of three dimensions in space. I think graphical feedback in the form of dots and circles is going to be useful and its gonna look cool but I don't think its gonna make things much faster than what can be achieved now. Especially when deviation is introduced: I will probably completely ignore the deviating distances and the graphical features based on those distances and keep focusing on precise strength.
Of course they could also start deviating strengths... that would be evil.
Regards,
M.M.
Miss Moonwych,
do you have max skills, virtue-implants, pph or ppg and you fly a rigged covops with sister launcher?
thx for a precise answer.
db
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.23 09:37:00 -
[358]
Originally by: Phlegmatia
You can't work out the precise direction. a point in space is unrealistic. The visual cues should be a Sphere if you are getting a result from 1 Probe that shows the estimated range from the probe. Basically, a bubble in a bubble
*groan*... You have never tried the system in its unbugged (well, less bugged at least) state, did you? I say that because a bubble inside a bubble is exactly what you get from scanning with one probe.
Originally by: Phlegmatia
You should only have partial solution "dots" once you have 2 or more probes in space,
Again that's exactly what you would get in the unbugged state. A circle with two probes, and two unwarpable point with 3 probes.
Originally by: Phlegmatia
Also, you don't have to have 4 probes to get a warp-able solution. I've scanned pretty much all of the sites I've found with only 3.
That's true, because if you place the three probes in the right configuration the two dots given by the scan actually collapse into one. Work with the geometry ofit, if you don't beleive me, though I agree that it shold be made a little harder for dots to collapse on each other. They tend to collapse on each other too often.
Let me reiterate. What was shown on map before of the bug is only a graphical visualization of the data already shown as numbers in the probe result reports. No additional information is added, it's only an elaboration of the already available data that a computer of 10 years ago is perfectly capable to do. While I am all in favor of very complex scan mechanics, the complexity should come by not obtaining complete information from the probes. Giving you the raw data, and then telling you that your on-board computer is not able to handle calculations that a 386 could do is VERY artificial.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.23 09:48:00 -
[359]
Originally by: Miss Moonwych
Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 23/02/2009 07:23:17
Devs: am I correct that a trial acount character with say a Heron and lets say lvl2 artro skill and asrto triangulation at lvl 2
That would be astro acquisition, not triangulation, with the recent changes to skills. But I think you are right. Possibly making astro acquisition untrainable by trial accounts?
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DeepBlue
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.23 09:52:00 -
[360]
so the virtues really became +/- useless.
with maxed skills, rigged cov ops and sister launcher, pph implant. you find about everything existing in game.
for a extra bonus of 2 billions isk (in other words virtue implants), you have the abbility to find:
- 10/10 plexes
- digital plexus (wich allready got nerfed to no usefull loot).
at this point and state. ty for killing once a good implant to no use at all :(
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