Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 09/02/2009 17:19:04
Here at Team Bifrost we like scanning, and also wormholes. These subjects interest and excite us, and we hope you'll find them worth your time too

We present therefore this wonderful thread wherein you can leave feedback, comments and constructive criticism on these two specific feature areas. (Bug reports are also very welcome, but they belong in HERE.) This is of course still a work in progress, and we still have time scheduled to make changes based on your feedback. Get posting


This thread will be cleaned and your replies might be deleted.


!!!WHEEE IMPORTANT INFORMATION HERE!!!

The basic principle of the new system is that each probe just generates a distance to whatever it scans. If you have two probes scanning the same thing, those two distances resolve to a circular result. Three probes will give you two results*, one above the plane and one below. Four gives you a solid hit which you can warp to.

The result doesn't become warpable until you get a hit with four probes.

Also, you do have to triangulate - there are measures in place to stop you cheating and dropping four probes in the same spot :)

* If the distance between the two results is very small (due to the three probes being roughly coplanar with the target) we collapse them into a single result for convenience.

ASTROMETRICS BUG is no longer astrometricsBug

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Originally by: CCP Casqade

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Originally by: Hoshi

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Ok here is a small problem.

When a probe is recovered it comes in a state where it it's sort of unpacked. That means it can't be stacked with other probes. This in turn means that once you have used all probes once you can only load 1 at a time in the launcher and have to reload after each is launched.

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This is currently by design. You can repack them in station or take 10 seconds for each probe to load back into the launcher.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Originally by: Avalira

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Originally by: CCP Casqade

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This is by design. You can repack them in station or take 10 seconds for each probe to load back into the launcher.

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Is there a specific reason for this design?

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It's something that's on our to-do list to fix because it isn't optimal, but it's low on the list because it's not game-breaking. If we have time we'd like to make further changes to this system but don't count on it.

Originally by: Hoshi

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Would it be possible to show the range from you to the probes on the map? Right now it just shows the range settings on probe it self and not how far away from you it is.

Would make it MUCH easier to move the probes into the correct position that way.

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It's probably possible but I'm not sure why exactly you'd need that information given the way the system works now, as placement should all be visual. I'm not sure exactly how the map's holding up on Singularity though so there may be visual clues missing, I guess.

Originally by: Earthworm

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Is the bug that you need Astrometrics 5 currently to scan because of the aforementioned bug but ultimately will not? Or will Astrometrics 5 be required to scan, regardless of the bug?

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That's a defect that we're going to fix. You'll need Astrometrics 1 to use probes.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Originally by: Hoshi

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What if any effect do skills have atm?

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They all have their old effects*, I believe, so most of them are reducing the 10s cycle time...

What they'll probably end up doing is that everything that currently affects scan time will be switched to scan strength and vice versa, and the scan deviation one stays the same. Astrometrics will determine the number of probes you can have out at once (1 = 4, 5 = 8), which it probably is already but you can't check because you can't scan without the skill to 5... This isn't all implemented yet so if you have opinions please share them!

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 09/02/2009 16:39:16
The basic principle of the new system is that each probe just generates a distance to whatever it scans. If you have two probes scanning the same thing, those two distances resolve to a circular result. Three probes will give you two results*, one above the plane and one below. Four gives you a solid hit which you can warp to.

The result doesn't become warpable until you get a hit with four probes.

Also, you do have to triangulate - there are measures in place to stop you cheating and dropping four probes in the same spot :)

* If the distance between the two results is very small (due to the three probes being roughly coplanar with the target) we collapse them into a single result for convenience.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Originally by: Hoshi

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One skill could perhaps effect probe warp speed.

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I guess it could be useful in larger systems. I'll add it to the list of things to consider - I wasn't sure it'd be worthwhile. I'd lean towards having it affect the probe's sublight speed too just to give it some oomph.

Originally by: Haral Reimo

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Three probes will give you two results*, one above the plane and one below. Four gives you a solid hit which you can warp to.

The result doesn't become warpable until you get a hit with four probes.

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Given that those two points generated from 3 probes should be a reasonable degree of accuracy, with the 4th probe just determining between them, is there a reason you don't allow people to just warp to both points to see which one is the actual hit?

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Actually now I think about it, it's possible that those two points are indeed warpable. I can't remember exactly

Originally by: Hoshi

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I think the moving widget is a bit too larger, makes it difficult when you have several probes close to each other, can't really see what is going on. Maybe make the center cube smaller and the arrows thinner while keeping their length.

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This is on our to-do list I believe :)

Originally by: Dragossin

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There seems to be a problem with the conversion from old scan probe launchers to the new ones.

All scan probe launcher I's and recon probe launcher I's i had turned into expanded probe launcher I's (same for the SOE launchers). From what i read here the old scan probe launcher I's should have turned into core probe launcher I's?

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This is how I intended it to work originally; I'm not sure why that doesn't match up with the patchnotes... The logic is that any ship which has a current launcher fitted has enough CPU to fit the expanded launcher, and at that point why would you want the less-capable core one? It's something we could change (if I buy Prism X some chocolate), but I think the current change makes more sense personally.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Originally by: Brzhk

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Also, selecting multiple probes and click 'recover' jsut recovers the one on which the menu has been opened.

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If you want to recover multiple probes, I suggest activating them using the checkbox and then using the "recover all" button at the top. Multi-selecting probes with control or shift doesn't currently make the right-click menu operate on multiple probes. Although perhaps it should.

Originally by: Verite Rendition

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So what is a wormhole classified as on the scanner?

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It's an unknown-type cosmic signature.

Also, the graphics aren't ready yet. It'll look much nicer soonish.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Originally by: Leere

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Edited by: Leere on 09/02/2009 18:00:20
so the best thing to do on it then would just mash scan over and over with .25 probes all around it?

more than a few times I've also had probes get stuck moving or warping and I'll have to recall them to reset them

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It's not chance-based any more so mashing the button isn't going to help, I'm afraid.

Originally by: Demeterus

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Is there an ETA on when you will be able to scan without Astrometrics V? As it is now, it's fairly pointless to be on SiSi and help out with testing if you're not actually able to test anything. :)

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No, I don't have an ETA right now, sorry.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

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Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 09/02/2009 17:51:04
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 09/02/2009 17:50:00
Had two successful probings now, one a FW major site (hard to find) and a gas harvest site.

Moving probes;
1. Turn off Scene2 and restart client.
2. Drop a probe and notice the POS style placement cursor. Drag or push the arrown until the box is in desired location.
Note: There is a ~5s delay from making last adjustment until probe enters warp, so not much room for butter fingers.

Drop four probes in system, each with enough range to cover at least half the system (ie. 64au gate-gate, use 32au probes)
If any of the probes report a hit selecting the result will show which probe is the winner. Converge all other probes on it reducing scan range to the reported range.

-If two probes report in a circle will show approximate location and range. Move the two other drones to encompass the circle. Reduce range as needed.

-When three probes report in, a 'traditional' result will show red/yellow. Reduce probe range and move close so the result is in the overlap of all four .. repeat until result goes green (100%) and warp away.

Critique: Have a result using 5 probes all down to 0.25AU evenly spaced around result in an 0.4 system and I am unable to get result over 75%. At this range everything becomes one big mess and nearly impossible to adjust probes. Perhaps tweak the probe strength?

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This is good advice. Note that if you grab a face of the cube rather than the arrows you can move in that plane. There's a change coming soon that will cause the probes to move only when you hit "analyze", so you'll have as long as you like to position them.

Originally by: Hoshi

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I managed to get it down to 81% before I gave up, just not worth the trouble :)

Btw it seems that probe position and moving widget position doesn't always line up. If I unclick active (to see better the relative positions of the probes) and then click it again the sphere and widget can be at a different position, sometimes it's moved all the way back to my ship while other times it might just be 0.1-0.2 au wrong. Makes it very annoying to make fine adjustments.

Here is one example:
The selected probe is in the cluster with the other probes while the sphere + widget is over by my ship.
http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~mcgreag/eve/2009.02.09.17.45.05.jpg

And here is another one where the sphere + widget is 0.1 au too much to the left (the selected probe is Probe 48 at the center of the screen).
http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~mcgreag/eve/2009.02.09.17.46.28.jpg

Not sure how to recreate, just seems to happen randomly.

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That's a defect waiting to be fixed, I believe. And yes, it is annoying!*

Originally by: Merin Ryskin

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Uh, silly question, since I don't have Astrometrics V on any character, but can someone say whether this system does or does not apply to scanning for ships? Currently on TQ, I can drop a single probe and have a warpable scan result in under 30 seconds as long as they aren't in deadspace, but it sounds like this new system will take quite a bit longer.

If the new system does apply to ship scanning, have you considered the major game balance changes involving safespot busting?

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Yes, this applies to ships, and yes it will make finding ships harder. Personally I'm happy with this - the current system is IMO too fast, and apart from anything else made ship probing far less common, in my experience. With the old old system people would use safespots because good probing pilots were rare and it took a long time. When the old system came in and everyone realized that there's no such thing as a safespot, the chances of actually finding someone (outside missions and so on) became much lower. I'm interested to see how this new system affects things.

That said, if you do have a strong opinion on this issue, please explain it here clearly :)

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Id say it can be much faster than current TQ system BUT moving probes around system is really a pain. System map needs tactical overlay for probe and signature "height". Or like someone proposed - you drag and drop probes on X Y plane and CTRL+drag for Z axis (like in homeworld). Would be like 10x faster.

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I see this coming up a lot - am I right in thinking that it's really not obvious that the cube is a control? If you want to use homeworld-style controls just use the vertical arrows and the top/bottom surfaces of the cube and that gives you planar+vertical movement. This is the way I've been working with the system so far, but there are several other guys in the office who are using all cube faces to get things positioned much faster.

Originally by: Halada

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Also, once an anomaly is detected and we get the blue circle, could we select it and sort of lock our view on it so we can circle around it without jerking with the right and left button to get our bearings for our 4 probes trying to triangulate it properly.

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If you click on a probe the camera should refocus on it. Is this enough?

Originally by: Verite Rendition

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BTW, what the heck happened to multispec probes? And what's with results not returning as radar/ladar/grav/mag/unknown? Finding a radar when you want an unknown and vice versa is going to get very annoying very quickly.

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What should happen is that as you get closer to each site the second and third columns will fill in with additional data - the signature type in the second and the site name in the third. This isn't currently working though. It means you have to do a little more digging before you can ID a site properly; personally I felt the multispec was necessary in the old system but made identifying system contents too trivial.

Originally by: Kjellerup

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Except for the fact that there's no option to repackage them when you are docked :( (I'm using some old probes that were 'converted' to Core probes, which may explain why I can't repackage them)

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I'll look into this.

Originally by: DrAtomic

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Please please please decrease the powergrid requirement to what it was, it's hard enough fitting everything on a helios as is (powergrid wise) or give the helios 1 powergrid more to compensate.

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Done.

Originally by: NeoThermic

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On an unrelated note, perhaps a hotkey would be a good idea to hide the movement widgets altogether? Several times i have obtained a scan result but been unable to see its location on the solarsystem map because it was INSIDE an arrow. Deactivating the probe solves the issue but then we get the above problem

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Good idea, will see if we can squeeze it in.

Originally by: Miss Moonwych

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This is a good proposal. There will however still be another problem: if scanning only takes a few secs (and assming with deviation the result is different each time) then you can scan several times and you can see the average/mean position of the deviated locations. That way you can still place a lot shorter range probes at the right positions and find it really quickly.

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Any deviations will be determinstically calculated (ie, no random component) to avoid exactly this issue.

Originally by: FeralShadow

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PvP Probing
-FeralShadow

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I would have thought that any competent opponent who knows they might be scan will be constantly warping and thus unfindable under any probing system. Granted currently it can be possible to catch the warp-spot of a slow-to-align ship if it's being sloppy and only using a couple of points, but this is a fairly rare case I think.

Originally by: Miss Moonwych

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Lets say there are 5 types of sites to find: level 0 through level 4. What you probably want is something like this (time to find the site):

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I'm not sure I agree that harder sites have to take a whole lot longer to scan. Their rarity is already governed by their spawn chance; long discovery times select by masochism which I'm not sure is a positive thing.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Originally by: Neddy Fox

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The new system will virtually make it impossible to pin them down. Also, the results MUST show shiptypes like it does now, w/e the range is.

Q for the devs : What about our system scanning arrays? What's going to happen with them?

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To the first: why? Genuine question.

Scanning arrays are still under discussion but will most likely be retired in a way that does not penalize current users and which we will be consulting on further. They can't easily be transitioned to the current mechanic, and the most obvious ways of doing this would still take a lot of coding time that we'd rather spend on polishing right now, particularly given the limited number of these structures in use on TQ currently.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Originally by: Sendinal Cortere

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CCP you guys are such teases. I just want to probe your holes and slide my Orca in and out a couple of times. I'll still respect you.

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(I AM A TERRIBLE PERSON)

Originally by: Xelios

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Like others said the movement system in Homeworld is perfect for this, why can't we just use that?

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We're still examining ways to make this a bit more intuitive.

Originally by: mamolian

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Out of interest are wormholes supposed to be able to be bookmarked for use later? IE until they collapse?

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Yes.

Originally by: TaX DoDger

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Is the spread of wormholes and frequency the same as it will be on TQ? As far as I have read there should be about one wormhole system per actual system in eve, effectively doubling the amount of systems in eve.

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As a general rule you should not have to travel more than three systems in any direction before finding a wormhole. The actual number of 'new' systems added is 46% more than currently exists.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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(Not totally in chronological order!)

Originally by: Jowen Datloran

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I got a couple of questions:

1) Will being inside a deadspace area no longer grant you some kind of "protection" of being scanned down in a flash?
2) Is that a possibility to scan down wrecks I am noticing in the filter menu?

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1) Probably not. I'd prefer to avoid it, but I'm not 100% ruling it out
2) No, that's a bug

Originally by: Zeba

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Originally by: Zeba

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Ack! Please don't convert my sisters recon launcher into an expanded! There are several combat ships I use that have an empty utility high and nothing to put in it past an autotargeter. The sisters core launcher would be a perfect fit and needed insurance if the probe ship gets iced in w-space!

edit: Also after perusing all of my ship fits a further reduction of the cpu from 15 to 10 for the core and 10 to 5 for the sisters would let me have the choice to use the core on any ship with an extra utility high and then the sisters for those oh so tight 6 cpu left fits.

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Could you answer my question please?

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I'm not seeing any question marks in your first post

Originally by: Space Wanderer

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An opinion.

Currently, barring the astro V bug, every player with astrometrics II can use every kind of probe. In the current system you had to have astro V to be able to use the longest range probes (observator and ferret).

Why the requirement has been removed for new long range probes? Is this intended? If yes, what is the rationale?

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Nope, that's me not paying attention. Bumped it to 5, but would consider dropping it to 4.

Originally by: Fumen

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Issue with recovery of probes:

IF I recall the devblog correctly, wasn't it stated that probes should be recovered if the controlling ship disconnects either by a log out or a session change?

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Wasn't implemented when you posted this; it should be in now but I'm not sure if it's on SiSi yet, and I think it has a few issues to iron out still.

Originally by: Tobin Shalim

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3. Are we suppose to hit the Analyze button twice once we move probes? Currently have click once to move, and once again to run the scan. Bug or feature? Should they be warping and scanning automatically?

4. No history box on the scan window any more. This makes it a pain actually to try to find new sites when you have multiple in a system. Perhaps if we have achieved a 100% warpable spot from quadangulation, then run a system-wide scan using either a deep space or core probe that we can still have that result show up in the scan window? Or bring back the history section and put it in there. Makes it easier to try to find multiple sites without running back to one I've scanned before.

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3) That's a bug
4) We were going to have an archive but ran out of time, sorry

Originally by: Ky'rena

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Curious, I saw a posting here that said the launchers Power was set back to 1.. and yet i still cannot activate all the mods on my covert ops as i do on TQ. Anyone else?

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Change hasn't been moved across yet, I'm still fixing other launcher/probe issues. It'll be changed by the time it hits TQ though, barring elephants.

Originally by: DeepBlue

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feature request:

- Scan Result filter
-- Additional filter options
-- Filters: Wormholes, Gravimetric, Radar,
Magnetometric, Ladar, Unknown

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On the to-do list. Wormholes probably won't be their own category, though.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Originally by: Neddy Fox

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Lots of useful comments]

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Read and digested. I'm not sure we're in a position to make changes of this size right now, but it's filed away in the back of my mind for further consideration and follow-up.

Originally by: Misanth

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Edited by: Misanth on 14/02/2009 22:29:28

Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Yes, this applies to ships, and yes it will make finding ships harder. Personally I'm happy with this - the current system is IMO too fast, and apart from anything else made ship probing far less common, in my experience. With the old old system people would use safespots because good probing pilots were rare and it took a long time. When the old system came in and everyone realized that there's no such thing as a safespot, the chances of actually finding someone (outside missions and so on) became much lower. I'm interested to see how this new system affects things.

That said, if you do have a strong opinion on this issue, please explain it here clearly :)

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You're wrong, and it's quite tragic to see how little you know about the game reality. Your knowledge about game functionality is obviously well, but not how it pans out. I'll enlighten you:

When someone is at a safespot, they just need a mere few seconds to align while warping to a new spot. They can just non-stop warp at range to safespots, planets, moons, belts etc and drop new temporary bookmarks all the time. That way they are "immune" until their aggression timer runs out.

And here comes the nasty part; when they have no aggression, they just log off and their ship disappears after 30 seconds. That 30 seconds include their e-warp, so we need to scan down them in what preferably takes, tops, 20 seconds.

Now, unless we can scan down ships in 20seconds, you are making (attentive) players invulnerable, and as far as I know both CCP and players pretty much agree right now that players need to commit to fighting? We have a major issue with people ratting in 0.0 and being invulnerable right now. I personally played this game 3,5 years+ and never even had anyone being fast enough to land in my belt before I'm off, even less being able to scan/probe me down.

No offense Greyscale, I do like your work, but clearly you have no clue about this, or you want people to play EVE safely. I thought that's against the very essence and idea of this game tho?

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I don't feel that the ability to probe people down while they're actually logging off (without aggro) is a good thing overall; if you're logging without aggro you should be safe, and I wasn't a fan of the old (current) system removing that protection. It makes the probe system too powerful IMO, and it also drives the uptake of cloaks, because it means the only way to reliably avoid being killed in a non-station system is to cloak.

With regards to both this and the previous quoted person in this post, I don't feel we're currently in a place to resolve these issues in a satisfactory manner, and I don't see this changing until we revisit the rest of the intel suite. This is something we're very keen to do soon, but no timeframe. When that comes, things should hopefully be more finely balanced between interested parties. For now, things are going to swing back a little too far, but I think that's the best solution available to us right now.

Originally by: Hoshi

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Problems with the implementation of the probe system and how to solve them

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This is pretty much what we're doing/intending to do, and the "stored random seed" idea is what the programmer I was talking to thought was probably the best way to do it. Cookie for you.

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Originally by: Manira

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no offense, but can't you make this post more transparent, without all this quotes, or want me to do it for you? :)

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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Argh, I think you ate my post.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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- On the subject signal strength, skills and so on, I think we've killed two birds with one stone here. As it currently stands:
- Everything which used to give a scan duration bonus now gives a scan strength bonus
- Everything which used to give a scan strength bonus now gives a scan duration bonus EXCEPT the Virtue set
- Everything which used to give a deviation reduction still does

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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The specific implementation in Homeworld is also somewhat a product of its circumstances, regarding camera positioning and the non-persistant nature of the movement control. Now all that said, I'm not denying that it pretty much worked, and in particular that it was simple and that the (X,Y)+Z nature of it fits nicely in with the way most people approach 3D-space problems, but I'd rather try and produce something using its best aspects rather than simply copying it. That said, I am not a UI designer, and I'll bow to the opinions of our in-house guys who are

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Astrometrics level bug [FIXED]
(Unable to scan unless skill is at level five)

Wormholes can't be entered
(we are looking into this issue)

Originally by: Avalira

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Signal Acquisition (rank 8): Increases probe strength by 5% per level (old Astrometric triangulation skill)
Covert Ops ship (rank 4): Increases probe strength by 10% per level
GCU Rig I: Increases probe strength by 10%

Meh, I fail somewhere cause I don't get the x2.7 modifier . What are the new bonuses?

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Originally by: Sniper Wolf18

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Again, Mr Poast muncher

The probe moving interface is more painful than having a cactus rammed up your ass then inflated with an over 9000 psi inflator hose

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Originally by: General Meridus

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Cute, but it still does not address the problem. Simply put, the UI blows.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Originally by: General Meridus

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Cute, but it still does not address the problem. Simply put, the UI blows.

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The UI on SiSi is not the final product. It is being worked on as I type this.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Originally by: Sniper Wolf18

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Again, Mr Poast muncher

The probe moving interface is more painful than having a cactus rammed up your ass then inflated with an over 9000 psi inflator hose

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How do you know this?

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Originally by: Hoshi

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Both these ships and a small handful of other ships will still need a virtue set to be possible to be locatable by probes, but I think I can live with that considering most of the ships that will fall into this category are cloaking ships anyway.

Will have to do some math on ECCM on cruiser sized ships, guess this might be that boost to ECCM that people have requested, fit 2 on your t2 cruiser and become impossible to find with probes. That could be balanced not sure.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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- On the subject signal strength, skills and so on, I think we've killed two birds with one stone here. As it currently stands:
- Everything which used to give a scan duration bonus now gives a scan strength bonus
- Everything which used to give a scan strength bonus now gives a scan duration bonus EXCEPT the Virtue set
- Everything which used to give a deviation reduction still does

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Originally by: Alqualonde

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Oh, and why don't my probes want to return? They warp back to my ship when I click "recover", but won't go into my cargo hold.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Originally by: General Meridus

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Cute, but it still does not address the problem. Simply put, the UI blows.

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The UI on SiSi is not the final product. It is being worked on as I type this.

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Think of it this way. Leave it as it is, and I've already started calling it Darwinian Probing. It works perfectly.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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- On the subject signal strength, skills and so on, I think we've killed two birds with one stone here. As it currently stands:
- Everything which used to give a scan duration bonus now gives a scan strength bonus
- Everything which used to give a scan strength bonus now gives a scan duration bonus EXCEPT the Virtue set
- Everything which used to give a deviation reduction still does
With max skills, a rigged covert ops now gives a 2.7x strength bonus. This means that the hardest ship to scan (non-prize for who knows which one it is, only ships that have legitimately been flown by players count) gives a strength of something like 98.5% with the combat probes at 0.05AU. This distance is roughly half the side-length of the scanning control cube at its smallest side, which means with the above bonuses you'll almost never have to have significant cube overlap for scanning ships. We're going to tweak down the strength of the very hardest exploration sites ever so slightly so they end up in about the same place.

These changes should both ensure that old skills, rigs and implants are still very relevant, and that the "I can't get any closer!" issue goes away once you skill up properly. (As a side-note here, I'm pretty sure that the math picks the four best probe results and ignores the rest, so dropping 8 around the same target slightly increases the chances of those four results being optimal, but doesn't directly contribute to the signal strength.)

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Originally by: SARENA LEE

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ok i'm lost i got it the best i could, .25 on range 3 around the bottom and one on the top.
and thats the best i get

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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An opinion.

Currently, barring the astro V bug, every player with astrometrics II can use every kind of probe. In the current system you had to have astro V to be able to use the longest range probes (observator and ferret).

Why the requirement has been removed for new long range probes? Is this intended? If yes, what is the rationale?

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Nope, that's me not paying attention. Bumped it to 5, but would consider dropping it to 4.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: Marlenus

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I don't have a strong opinion on the 4 versus 5, but their design function is similar to the Observator, which has always been 5. For finding things that are a really long way away from anything, I don't think 5 is unreasonable.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: Marlenus

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I don't have a strong opinion on the 4 versus 5, but their design function is similar to the Observator, which has always been 5. For finding things that are a really long way away from anything, I don't think 5 is unreasonable.

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Originally by: Gone'Postal

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Don't worry hunny, With your transversal I might as well be shooting blanks.

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Originally by: Asmodean Reborn

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I have a 100% hit using 4 probes. It's clickable in the scanner but not right-clickable like it used to be. Hence, I can't warp to it. Any ideas?

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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- On the subject signal strength, skills and so on, I think we've killed two birds with one stone here. As it currently stands:
- Everything which used to give a scan duration bonus now gives a scan strength bonus
- Everything which used to give a scan strength bonus now gives a scan duration bonus EXCEPT the Virtue set
- Everything which used to give a deviation reduction still does
With max skills, a rigged covert ops now gives a 2.7x strength bonus. This means that the hardest ship to scan (non-prize for who knows which one it is, only ships that have legitimately been flown by players count) gives a strength of something like 98.5% with the combat probes at 0.05AU. This distance is roughly half the side-length of the scanning control cube at its smallest side, which means with the above bonuses you'll almost never have to have significant cube overlap for scanning ships. We're going to tweak down the strength of the very hardest exploration sites ever so slightly so they end up in about the same place.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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- Everything which used to give a scan duration bonus now gives a scan strength bonus

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Originally by: Alqualonde

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[...]A lot of the aggravation involved in constant rotating and tweaking would be solved by simply adding the tactical overlay to the scanning map. (Edit: with vertical lines from the plane for all the probes, planets, and scan hits of course)

Secondary problems are that it's hard to tell what things can be clicked, and when they can be clicked. Easily solved by making clickable controls light up when the mouse is hovered over them. (Also this would make scanning more fun. It is a basic of game design that controls that react in satisfying ways really help player enjoyment.)

Lastly, the arrows are hard to click at certain angles. They should be cylindrical. Right now of course they act as a clue to the camera orientation, which wouldn't be necessary with some kind of tactical overlay.[...]

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Originally by: Sniper Wolf18

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The probe moving interface is more painful than having a cactus rammed up your ass then inflated with an over 9000 psi inflator hose

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How do you know this?

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 17/02/2009 00:47:17

Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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An opinion.

Currently, barring the astro V bug, every player with astrometrics II can use every kind of probe. In the current system you had to have astro V to be able to use the longest range probes (observator and ferret).

Why the requirement has been removed for new long range probes? Is this intended? If yes, what is the rationale?

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Nope, that's me not paying attention. Bumped it to 5, but would consider dropping it to 4.

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I don't know if this is saying what I think. However, putting these to 5 is a bad idea.

First, these probes are basically working as a new multispectral, due to the size of systems and at 1024 you can get some reliable, reproducible results.

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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Secondly, since scan strength is much more important now, these probes aren't good for much else except the multispeccing without having the strength skill to 5. So all you are doing is making someone train another skill to level 5, after training a rank 8 skill to level 5.

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Quote:

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So that just sounds like you are needlessly adding an extra ~2 weeks of training for no good reason.

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Quote:

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The only reason anyone would want this is because they're upset that they already trained it to 5.

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Originally by: Tuberider

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Do you now need max scanning skillz just too find lost fighters ?

found one easily enough at 100au, but couldn't get a good enough result too warp too it.

finding a full set after they get dropped 100au from the sun if u lose, them would take a week atm

infact after several hours of frustration i gave it up as broken

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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I don't feel that the ability to probe people down while they're actually logging off (without aggro) is a good thing overall; if you're logging without aggro you should be safe, and I wasn't a fan of the old (current) system removing that protection. It makes the probe system too powerful IMO, and it also drives the uptake of cloaks, because it means the only way to reliably avoid being killed in a non-station system is to cloak.

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Originally by: Graveyard Tan

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I call bull**** and troll. If you are deaf, how are you even able to read this or type replies?

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Originally by: Roemy Schneider

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if you're saying that a perfect cov ops (hf with the 13 ranks of lvl5) gets 2.7x better results, it would appear to me that one (mid) ECCM on these ships practically makes you "invulnerable" on a safe spot

but maybe im getting it wrong... since you are balancing with such worst-case scenarios of ~3months skilling, could you tell me what a halo'd, standard x-instinct'ed scimitar with, say..., 2 conjunctive ladars (47.68m sig / 61.12 ladar) would require?

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Originally by: Tuberider

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WTF is the point in having all those filters if you can't use them ?

Why can't we scan out drones anymore,is this true ?
so this is going too get expensive.

There is no chance in scanning out mission runners then ?

So scanning is just for carebears now ?

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Originally by: Tuberider

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There is no chance in scanning out mission runners then ?

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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Originally by: Tuberider

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There is no chance in scanning out mission runners then ?

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I suggest you actually test that, before you make yourself even more silly than now...

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Originally by: Primnproper

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Or even better can you make npc combat leave you with a 15 min agression timer that means that if you log you stay in space until the timers up? (which doesn't reset when they jump)

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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Originally by: Primnproper

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Or even better can you make npc combat leave you with a 15 min agression timer that means that if you log you stay in space until the timers up? (which doesn't reset when they jump)

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Not sure about that, but I think it does. If I get aggressed by rats I get an aggression countdown, and it doesn disappear passing through gates. Though I never tested the system thoroughly, so I am not sure about bugs and glitches in it...

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Originally by: Tuberider

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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Originally by: Tuberider

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There is no chance in scanning out mission runners then ?

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I suggest you actually test that, before you make yourself even more silly than now...

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i asked a question, you wanna insult me on here
go ahead endulge yourself

whats up lose a ship ?

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Originally by: DeepBlue

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- npc agro 120 secs

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Quote:

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- switching the solarsytem resets your timer to "no agro"

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Quote:

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and this countdown you are talking about is only in empire space

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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Originally by: DeepBlue

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- npc agro 120 secs

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Not sure about that, I get an "Aggression countdown: 15 min" message.

Quote:

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- switching the solarsytem resets your timer to "no agro"

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Well, that is downright stupid, I agree. The fact that I still get the aggression countdown on screen is a bug, then? And does that apply only to NPC timers or also to pvp timers?

Quote:

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and this countdown you are talking about is only in empire space

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Oh, another stupid thing, I guess.

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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Originally by: DeepBlue

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- npc agro 120 secs

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Not sure about that, I get an "Aggression countdown: 15 min" message.

Quote:

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- switching the solarsytem resets your timer to "no agro"

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Well, that is downright stupid, I agree. The fact that I still get the aggression countdown on screen is a bug, then? And does that apply only to NPC timers or also to pvp timers?

Quote:

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and this countdown you are talking about is only in empire space

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Oh, another stupid thing, I guess.

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Originally by: Tuberider

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ctrl-Q alot ?

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Originally by: Hoshi

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The yellow aggresion countdown has nothing to do with logging. It's a timer for non aggressive (if such exist) npcs of that specific faction will attack you because you killed their friends.

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Originally by: DeepBlue

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- switching the solarsytem resets your timer to "no agro"

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Originally by: Miss Moonwych

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0.10% (not detectable with 0.25 au probes)
0.05% (not detectable with 0.25 au probes)
0.03% (not detectable with 0.25 au probes)

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Originally by: DeepBlue

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Originally by: Miss Moonwych

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0.10% (not detectable with 0.25 au probes)
0.05% (not detectable with 0.25 au probes)
0.03% (not detectable with 0.25 au probes)

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had a 0.02% sig today, ill try to determine which site this is. its inside a cosmos constellation in 0.0 (booster stuff). im pretty sure its the radar plex, where you get the booster bpc's and stuff.

to be sure ill have to scan all the other plexes in this complex, wich will be done today.

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Originally by: Nova Fox

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Although having alot of probes available wtih astrometrics 5 I think its little exessive to have what I forgot was the original purposed number (i think it was 15) Also this oversimplifies scanning a bit if you got that many, needs a lower number for a better skill vs reward ratio. Then again astrometrics to 5 takes forever.

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Originally by: Nova Fox

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Drop down menus for the ranges on the scanner menu please.

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Originally by: Hoshi

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[
What he said was 4 probes base + 1 per level of astro (ie 4 probes as astro 1 and 8 at astro 5). Not sure where you got 15 from.

But that said it doesn't really matter, putting more than 4 probes on a target won't make it easier to find, more probes only allow you to scan at several places at the same time. Now consider the fact that most time is not spent scanning but moving probes and the ability to scan at several places at once becomes less and less useful.

There are scenarios where being able to scan at more than 1 spot or to perhaps keep long range probes in space while at the same time moving other probes in for a precision hit is useful, specially for pvp but it's not huge advantage.

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Originally by: Tanhar

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Originally by: Nova Fox

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Drop down menus for the ranges on the scanner menu please.

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They are there already.

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Originally by: Ffreyn Moonflower

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Recon / ship scanning now seems completely impractical:

1) All you get is a list that says 'ship', even in a quiet system you need some clue to which targets you should even be looking to chase down. This is also not being narrowed down until you are almost on the ship, by which point it is just far too late. (It also makes no sense given that the direction scanner gives you far more information with less effort.)

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Originally by: Tuberider

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Originally by: DeepBlue

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Originally by: Miss Moonwych

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0.10% (not detectable with 0.25 au probes)
0.05% (not detectable with 0.25 au probes)
0.03% (not detectable with 0.25 au probes)

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had a 0.02% sig today, ill try to determine which site this is. its inside a cosmos constellation in 0.0 (booster stuff). im pretty sure its the radar plex, where you get the booster bpc's and stuff.

to be sure ill have to scan all the other plexes in this complex, wich will be done today.

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digital plexus ? has the name changed ?
should be a biatch too find atm
keep us posted

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Quote:

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Cosmos Constellation: 09-4XW (Tenal)

i1-be8 - 0.10
i1-be8 - 0.05

zj-q00 - 0.39 - Cosmic Sig - Radiance - Drone Plex
zj-q00 - 0.39 - Cosmic Sig - HackBase 1
zj-q00 - 0.20 - Wormhole - x702 - WH Space

ZXA-V6 - 0.10

ZH3-BS - 0.20 - Wormhole - - Empire

1QH-0K - 0.78 - Cosmic Sig - Gurista Base
1QH-0K - 0.10
1QH-0K - 0.10
1QH-0K - 0.03

W80-19 - 0.39 - Cosmic Sig - ArcSal - Pristine Guristas Pod Cluster
W80-19 - 0.02

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Originally by: DeepBlue

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just use the filters correct. set the filter to BattleShips only if you look for BS... or set them for BC's... set it to whatever you are looking for.

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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1) It's all or nothing

You either have the skills/equipment to find stuff, or you CANNOT find it, no matter how much time/effort you devote. This may cut a lot of people from a lot of content. Morevoer it is particularly annoying when you think of wormholes. First you give us a core scanner that can be fit without much penalty on any ship, basically in order to be able to find wormholes without a covop, then I find out I cannot find most wormholes anyway because I am not receiving the covop bonuses. Doesn't seem very logical to me.

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Originally by: Capa

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So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.

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Originally by: Cailais

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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1) It's all or nothing

You either have the skills/equipment to find stuff, or you CANNOT find it, no matter how much time/effort you devote. This may cut a lot of people from a lot of content. Morevoer it is particularly annoying when you think of wormholes. First you give us a core scanner that can be fit without much penalty on any ship, basically in order to be able to find wormholes without a covop, then I find out I cannot find most wormholes anyway because I am not receiving the covop bonuses. Doesn't seem very logical to me.

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I'd agree here. Wormholes need to be straight forward to find and not something that requires a specialist ship, or uber skills.

The reason I think this, is that WH and W-Space are the 'hook' that will encourage players into exploration in a general sense and equally entice players out of high security space and into the wilderness.

If CCP believes that players will wait until their cov op buddy logs on, then gang up and go exploring they're mistaken. Much of the value of W-Space will be realised not by groups of players, but solo explorers. If others see these trail blazers head out into the unknown - and reap profits in doing so - they will likely follow this behaviour.

This in turn will mean that T3 ships reach affordable levels, and as a by product, may encourage players to become accustomed to PVP (vs AI NPCs initially) and interaction with .0 and low sec space.

tl;dr - Wormholes need to be found very easily - perhaps as easily as anomaly sites, across EVE.

C.

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Originally by: Pipboy2K

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Originally by: Cailais

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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1) It's all or nothing

You either have the skills/equipment to find stuff, or you CANNOT find it, no matter how much time/effort you devote. This may cut a lot of people from a lot of content. Morevoer it is particularly annoying when you think of wormholes. First you give us a core scanner that can be fit without much penalty on any ship, basically in order to be able to find wormholes without a covop, then I find out I cannot find most wormholes anyway because I am not receiving the covop bonuses. Doesn't seem very logical to me.

---

I'd agree here. Wormholes need to be straight forward to find and not something that requires a specialist ship, or uber skills.

The reason I think this, is that WH and W-Space are the 'hook' that will encourage players into exploration in a general sense and equally entice players out of high security space and into the wilderness.

If CCP believes that players will wait until their cov op buddy logs on, then gang up and go exploring they're mistaken. Much of the value of W-Space will be realised not by groups of players, but solo explorers. If others see these trail blazers head out into the unknown - and reap profits in doing so - they will likely follow this behaviour.

This in turn will mean that T3 ships reach affordable levels, and as a by product, may encourage players to become accustomed to PVP (vs AI NPCs initially) and interaction with .0 and low sec space.

tl;dr - Wormholes need to be found very easily - perhaps as easily as anomaly sites, across EVE.

C.

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i tried to figure out a way how to solve that problem with the wormholes, but didnt think about a simple solution like that one... i have to say, i like it. thumbs up!!

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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The only reason people already trained astrometrics to 5 is to use long range probes. Why mess with this dynamic when there is a perfectly reasonable way to multispec the system without using deep space probes? Just because you have to use 3 probes instead of 1?

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Originally by: Cailais

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tl;dr - Wormholes need to be found very easily - perhaps as easily as anomaly sites, across EVE.

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Originally by: Cailais

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tl;dr - Wormholes need to be found very easily - perhaps as easily as anomaly sites, across EVE.

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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The only reason people already trained astrometrics to 5 is to use long range probes.

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Originally by: Hoshi

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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The only reason people already trained astrometrics to 5 is to use long range probes.

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Actually back when I trained Astrometrics 5 it was to reduce scan time. This isn't the first time the scan system has changed you know.

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Originally by: Alex Harumichi

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Originally by: Cailais

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tl;dr - Wormholes need to be found very easily - perhaps as easily as anomaly sites, across EVE.

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I don't really agree. Having them be fairly hard to find would give a real "profession" to exploration/scanning -oriented characters. I don't want them to absolutely require top skills (that would be stupid), but neither would I like them to be trivially findable.

If you don't have the skills to find them in your corp... hire someone who does.

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Originally by: Capa

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So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.

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Originally by: Pytria Le'Danness

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If there is no "easy way out" of WH space out of game events might cause problems - I can live with danger and the need to travel further and further into WH-Space (I am actually quite thrilled by that idea) but making WHs hard to scan down might cause a lot of people suffer boring times in case shyte happens - and it will according to Mr. Murphy.

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Originally by: Zeba

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15cpu exploration launcher that any ship can fit along with i'll guess level 3~4 probe skills will be the answer to your getting stuck in w-space question.

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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Edited by: Space Wanderer on 17/02/2009 15:34:23
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 17/02/2009 15:31:45

Originally by: Zeba

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15cpu exploration launcher that any ship can fit along with i'll guess level 3~4 probe skills will be the answer to your getting stuck in w-space question.

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Not correct. Without covop bonuses, you are not able to scan some signatures. If the exit wormhole is in that subset, you are effectively trapped, EVEN if you have a core launcher.

That's why I like so much Miss Moonwych suggestion. You have no covop? No worry, you can still scan that wormhole out. Just relax and go for a 10 min scan time, if you really want to get out.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: Nova Fox

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Edited by: Nova Fox on 17/02/2009 11:36:41
If you're not going to use the homeworld system (even if its just a click to move, drag to reposition x/y, click to establish x/y, drag to reposition z, click finish, no shift key required) at least barrow the telemetry indicator (a 2d ghost ring where the probe would be on an x/y plane if z was zero) This would reduce the later readjustment of x and y again once the desired z is supposivly acheived and possible prevent me from reangleing my camera in 3 viewpoints to make sure its in the area I want it in.

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Originally by: Hugh Ruka

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in which system are you finding those 0.10% and lower sigs ? I'd like to do some experiment on them but did not find one so far ...

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Originally by: Cailais

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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1) It's all or nothing

You either have the skills/equipment to find stuff, or you CANNOT find it, no matter how much time/effort you devote. This may cut a lot of people from a lot of content. Morevoer it is particularly annoying when you think of wormholes. First you give us a core scanner that can be fit without much penalty on any ship, basically in order to be able to find wormholes without a covop, then I find out I cannot find most wormholes anyway because I am not receiving the covop bonuses. Doesn't seem very logical to me.

---

I'd agree here. Wormholes need to be straight forward to find and not something that requires a specialist ship, or uber skills.

The reason I think this, is that WH and W-Space are the 'hook' that will encourage players into exploration in a general sense and equally entice players out of high security space and into the wilderness.

If CCP believes that players will wait until their cov op buddy logs on, then gang up and go exploring they're mistaken. Much of the value of W-Space will be realised not by groups of players, but solo explorers. If others see these trail blazers head out into the unknown - and reap profits in doing so - they will likely follow this behaviour.

This in turn will mean that T3 ships reach affordable levels, and as a by product, may encourage players to become accustomed to PVP (vs AI NPCs initially) and interaction with .0 and low sec space.

tl;dr - Wormholes need to be found very easily - perhaps as easily as anomaly sites, across EVE.

C.

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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Edited by: Space Wanderer on 17/02/2009 15:34:23
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 17/02/2009 15:31:45

Originally by: Zeba

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15cpu exploration launcher that any ship can fit along with i'll guess level 3~4 probe skills will be the answer to your getting stuck in w-space question.

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Not correct. Without covop bonuses, you are not able to scan some signatures. If the exit wormhole is in that subset, you are effectively trapped, EVEN if you have a core launcher.

That's why I like so much Miss Moonwych suggestion. You have no covop? No worry, you can still scan that wormhole out. Just relax and go for a 10 min scan time, if you really want to get out.

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If you'd scanned a wormhole out, you'd realize that it is perfectly fine to scan them out quickly without said bonus.

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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I did (except that it was bugged and no wormholes could be seen). But if you had spent some time scanning around you'd realize that there are a lot of 0.10 and lower sigs which we have no idea what they really are. If there are no wormholes in that range all is fine. But if there are wormholes whose sig is that low and you end up in a system whose only exit is that WH, you are done for. As far as I know there has been no dev statement on the issue. Did I miss something?

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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No,there hasn't been a statement. However, every single wormhole that has been found so far (and this mentioned), has existed in the 0.15% - 0.25% range.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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So then even so, if they go all the way up to 40, that makes it even more unlikely that they will go down that far.

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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So then even so, if they go all the way up to 40, that makes it even more unlikely that they will go down that far.

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Are you serious? "That far" is just continuing the trend..

0.40
0.26
0.20
0.15
but 0.10 is illogic....

Oh well, it takes all kinds I suppose. Anyway greyscale knows, and hopefully will read the thread and consider the issue. That's only that really matters. But sure you have a strange concept of logic... :-)

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: DeepBlue

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Virtue implants dont have a effect on scanning right now.
i also think the skill - the once for sig strength - dont work correct.

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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It's called, making logical conclusions + recalling comments that have been made before by Greyscale and Prism.

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Originally by: DeepBlue

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finished the constellation, here the results for a cosmos booster constellation:

Quote:

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Cosmos Constellation: 09-4XW (Tenal)

i1-be8 - 0.10
i1-be8 - 0.05

zj-q00 - 0.39 - Cosmic Sig - Radiance - Drone Plex
zj-q00 - 0.39 - Cosmic Sig - HackBase 1
zj-q00 - 0.20 - Wormhole - x702 - WH Space

ZXA-V6 - 0.10

ZH3-BS - 0.20 - Wormhole - - Empire

1QH-0K - 0.78 - Cosmic Sig - Gurista Base
1QH-0K - 0.10
1QH-0K - 0.10
1QH-0K - 0.03

W80-19 - 0.39 - Cosmic Sig - ArcSal - Pristine Guristas Pod Cluster
W80-19 - 0.02

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the 0.02% Signature must be the Digial Plexus (Radar)
the 0.03% Signature should be the Magnetometric Site (Mag Cosmos Plex)

This Constellation ALLWAYS has 1 Radar and 1 Mag Complex in it.

the .05% Sig prolly is a base 4 site, i havent been able to find base 3&4 yet. wich leads to the conclusion:
Base 4: 0.05 Sigs
Base 3: 0.10 Sigs

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Originally by: Ydyp Ieva

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I'm not sure, but anyone ever thought about Faction Warfare and the new scanning system? With removal of the onboard scanner you will always need a probe launcher on a ship to even find a factional warfare complex

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Originally by: Xelios

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I see your point, but right now in EVE we have a system that's X+Y+Z, and due to the way the camera works moving a probe to a new location usually means you adjust the X, adjust the Y, adjust the Z, adjust the X again because it's still off, adjust the Y again because the X adjustment impacted Y and Z and so on. All the while having to move the camera angle around between adjustments. I like the fact that you can move any probe without first having to select it, but there's an awful lot of tweaking involved to get the position right, and it makes the whole system seem tedious.

With the Homeworld system you can adjust X and Y at the same time, then adjust the Z and with the help of the Z axis lines (like the current tactical overlay has) those 3 adjustments are usually enough to get the location you want regardless of the camera angle.

Ideally both systems would be combined into something new, because I can see that having to select a probe and use movement keys could be annoying when you're working with 4 of them.

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Originally by: Horchan

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Just a question: What is going to happen to Sisters launchers? Their current change to only taking 10 CPU less to fit doesn't make them seem worth the effort, at least compared to the 25% time reduction they used to give. On the other hand, a time reduction wouldn't be effective using the currently implemented scan times. But giving it a 5% or 10% strength bonus would make it attractive enough to bother using it, at least for me.

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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1) The scanning report for ALL the sites was "Group: cosmic signature" and "Type: deadspace". Isn't that too generic? It would be nice to have some more variability, for instance reporting "Group: radar signature", so that people might decide whether to pursue the signal until the end or move on after some minutes of scanning. If probes could be fine tuned to a specific sensor type, to the detriment of the others it would help add variability, too.

2) I found the wormhole, warped to it, but NO WORMHOLE COULD BE SEEN ANYWHERE. I tried to add and remove the scene2, nothing. It wasn't even shown in the overview... what gives?

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Originally by: Helison

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I am VERY perturbed about this design. Please do not make it IMPOSSIBLE to scan down difficult targets (like small ships or high-end exploration content) as long as you don¦t have the very best skills / the most expensive equipment. Make it really DIFFICULT to scan down a weak signal, as long as your skills/equipment is not optimal. If necessary redesign the whole calculation, so that the signal strength is more important and that deviation really happens. It would also be great if more probes would really improve the result.

Another point: Please don¦t drop the protection inside of deadspace complexes.

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Originally by: Miss Moonwych

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Excellent information. Your deduction is also very plausable I think. It makes sense.

Anyway. I think we now have a good idea what spread of sites there are. Surely when the skills kick in the strength will change (which makes it a bit harder to compare between players with different skills) so its good we know this now.

Still wonder if and how we're going to scan the 0.02% and 0.03% sites... Devs?

Regards,

M.M.

PS. I can confirm there are wormholes with 0.40% signature strength (using a 1024AU probe). I found one in a 0.9 high-sec system (Alenia). It said it would lead to empire space (possibly lower-sec). So not to 0.0 or WH space.

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Have you tried to put the deep space probe right on top of the site and then scan with 256/512/1024? Just to see if the difference between 0.03 and 0.02 is due to different distance from the probe or an actual sign of a different type of site.

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Originally by: Miss Moonwych

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You say that with max skills we could get a 2.7x boost on the scan strength.

Right now its not possible to scan 0.10% (1024 AU) strength sites. The limit is around 0.12% it seems. That means that with max skills we would be able to scan down ~0.045% sites.

But DeepBlue encountered a 0.03% site. So how are we going to find those?

Regards,

M.M.

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Originally by: Pytria Le'Danness

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One thing that is going to be very annoying in contested space is that there is no way to differentiate between FW sites and exploration sites - both show up as "Cosmic Anomaly" until you warp to them. This creates frustration for the explorer who finds a lot of sites he cannot use, and also opens the FW plexes for everyone to see which is a tactical disadvantage (thankfully it is so for both sides). On the other hand it will make FW probing much more difficult - right now you can do it with the onboard scanner, how is it supposed to happen using the new system?

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Originally by: Space Wanderer

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1) It's all or nothing

2) 100% accurate intel

3) Wreck probing

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Originally by: Primnproper

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So what you saying is that you want 0.0 ninja ratters (all those ravens who log when you enter system) to be totally and completly invulnrable then?

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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If there are anomaly sites in FW areas that's a bug. I'm fairly sure I removed them all.

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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I see one issue with new scanning system. You are making covops ships obsolete.

On TQ you use covops mostly because they can scan down things fast. Under new system (after you drop probes which takes same time for covops and any other ship) scanning enemy ships (around gate etc - so most fleet engagements) takes same time for covops as for cloaky recon. And why would you take covops instead of say falcon?

Additional scan str. wont be much of a difference - if you put probes at closest range to gate etc. you should get warpin with both covops and recon ships easily.

So only difference is scanning down hardest sites (and now there is a quesiton: are there covops-only scannable sites? if no, covops ships arent needed at all) and scanning down ECCM interceptors/recons (same question: can they be scanned on closest range with other ship? if yes covops is useless).

Humm? :)

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Originally by: Horchan

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Just a question: What is going to happen to Sisters launchers? Their current change to only taking 10 CPU less to fit doesn't make them seem worth the effort, at least compared to the 25% time reduction they used to give. On the other hand, a time reduction wouldn't be effective using the currently implemented scan times. But giving it a 5% or 10% strength bonus would make it attractive enough to bother using it, at least for me.

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Oh, hmmm. Yeah, I should do something about those to make them cooler. I'll see if I can hack in a strength bonus.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Why shouldn't the deadspace protection be dropped?

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 17/02/2009 20:06:08
And why would you take covops instead of say falcon?

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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With max skills, no implants and no rigs, an unbonused ship won't find:
- Assault frigates
- Covops
- EAS
- Some frigates
- Most interceptors
- Stealth bombers

Also, recons are fat and slow and expensive - if they're fit for proper covopsing (ie, overdrives and an MWD) I'm not convinced they'd be an effective recon at the same time. And I'd really not like to try running a bubblecamp in one.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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With max skills, no implants and no rigs, an unbonused ship won't find:
- Assault frigates
- Covops
- EAS
- Some frigates
- Most interceptors
- Stealth bombers

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Quote:

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Also, recons are fat and slow and expensive - if they're fit for proper covopsing (ie, overdrives and an MWD) I'm not convinced they'd be an effective recon at the same time. And I'd really not like to try running a bubblecamp in one.

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What about for sites, will some become impossible to find or take an extended amount of time when not using a Covert Ops ship?

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: Red Woodson

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Why shouldn't the deadspace protection be dropped?

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Simplest reason i can think of is that it makes low sec mission running or plexing even more dangerous. Meanwhile, it becomes more difficult to probe out pirates in low sec due to the increased time required to find their safe spots. Result: Low sec becomes more dead than it is now.

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Originally by: Lyvanna Kitaen

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Originally by: Nova Fox

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Edited by: Nova Fox on 17/02/2009 11:36:41
If you're not going to use the homeworld system (even if its just a click to move, drag to reposition x/y, click to establish x/y, drag to reposition z, click finish, no shift key required) at least barrow the telemetry indicator (a 2d ghost ring where the probe would be on an x/y plane if z was zero) This would reduce the later readjustment of x and y again once the desired z is supposivly acheived and possible prevent me from reangleing my camera in 3 viewpoints to make sure its in the area I want it in.

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Actually, there is sort of a "ghost ring" display already. Active probes cast a shadow on the plane of the ecliptic which can be used to help you line them up. I've been using this to get my probes into a nice tetrahedral formation.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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Originally by: Haral Reimo

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Given that those two points generated from 3 probes should be a reasonable degree of accuracy, with the 4th probe just determining between them, is there a reason you don't allow people to just warp to both points to see which one is the actual hit?

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Actually now I think about it, it's possible that those two points are indeed warpable. I can't remember exactly

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Originally by: Nova Fox

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I would love a line between the probe and that 'ghost ring' which I can barely see.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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With max skills, no implants and no rigs, an unbonused ship won't find:
- Assault frigates
- Covops
- EAS
- Some frigates
- Most interceptors
- Stealth bombers

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Originally by: Marlenus

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I've done a lot of mission probing (for salvaging purposes, not piracy per se) under the existing system. It's really not very hard to find mission runners, and there wasn't much they could do to make it harder, before.

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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Originally by: Nova Fox

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I would love a line between the probe and that 'ghost ring' which I can barely see.

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Seriously? Except in really dark system,s the shadows are not in fact hard to see.

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Originally by: Ydyp Ieva

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Not everyone can see colors, and also some people have it harder to see contrasts.

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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So in the end people who invested quite a few months to max covert ops skills + scan skills get only an advantage of scanning for frigs?

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Originally by: Red Woodson

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Were you probing for a specific mission runner? Were you in a crowded system? did you use ship probes or quest probes? It isn't that hard to find any random mission runner in a crowded mission hub.

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Originally by: Hoshi

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Edited by: Hoshi on 17/02/2009 22:05:56

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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So in the end people who invested quite a few months to max covert ops skills + scan skills get only an advantage of scanning for frigs?

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You will save time using a covert ops. This due to more relaxed probe placement.
If we take a raven as an example target a Covert Ops pilot with covert 5 and 2 scan rigs can find that target with either 4au probes placed within 1.5 au from the target or 2au probes placed within 1.8au

The same pilot using a falcon with ecm rigs would need either 2 au probes within 0.8 au or 1 au probes at any range.

I think you can easily save 10-20 sec. Compare this to the 30-35 sec you save today and it's not such a large loss. Especially since you on top of that get the ability to find some targets you otherwise wouldn't be locate.

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Originally by: Bimjo

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a question for Hoshi, deepblue, devs or anyone else who has done the maths :

In terms of Skills and "Worthwhile Training" , what levels would you recommend the following to ?
(Brackets are what I have,or plan to go to)

Astrometrics (5)
Astrometric Pinpointing(5)
Astrometric Triangulation(5)
Covert Ops(4)
Signal Aquisition(4)

I am guessing the last 2 are not worth taking to 5 as they take a long time to do ?

thanks

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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signal acquisition is rank 4 now???????????????????????????????????????????

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Originally by: DeepBlue

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if you have the skill you find it, if not just train up.

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Quote:

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noooo. he has this skill at lvl 4 :P

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 17/02/2009 22:27:58

Originally by: DeepBlue

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if you have the skill you find it, if not just train up.

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if sites dont "scatter" no skill is required...

plant 1000au probe, plant 4x 1000au, plant 4x closest range probes at the dot. Done.

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noooo. he has this skill at lvl 4 :P

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good. I just thought i lost 20 days of training.

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Originally by: DeepBlue

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for now a none skilled, not rigged and not implanted player can find everything above a 0.12 sig. i see a time coming where i just can trash my virtues ;(

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Originally by: Bimjo

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a question

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Originally by: Barls Babe

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Does anyone have any links/pics for the best way to place the probes when getting in close, as far as triangulation goes with 4 probes..

would this pic be correct?
Triangulation

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Originally by: Barls Babe

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Nice Pic... however I was probing one last night and i had to move them 4 probes in ridiculousy close... so close that it was hard to tell the 4 boxes apart when they were all active and still only then got 82% at most... Am i right in saying that rigs and implants are still not enhancing our skills on SiSi? cause that site was near impossible to find and i have perfect skills

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