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The WORMHOLES AND SCANNING megathread: bigger, longer and uncut

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 27 post(s)
Ydyp Ieva Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2009.02.17 21:39:00 - [151] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Nova Fox I would love a line between the probe and that 'ghost ring' which I can barely see. Seriously? Except in really dark system,s the shadows are not in fact hard to see. Not everyone can see colors, and also some people have it harder to see contrasts. I got a friend that couldn't even see the old warp scrambling effect, just because of she had a few drawbacks on her vision. And I'm sure she isn't the only one there. A white line from probe to base is a big help for most of them. ----------------------------------
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.17 21:55:00 - [152] Originally by: Ydyp Ieva Not everyone can see colors, and also some people have it harder to see contrasts. This. As I posted somewhere else, the tiny "red" ring is to me the exact same color as the orbital paths of all the orbital objects on the solar system map, making it very hard to distinguish. It also vanishes entirely "behind" the texture/color of the probe-moving widgets. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:01:00 - [153] What about the T1 Astrometrics frigates? I'm talking about the Heron and its equivalents in the other races, the ships that currently have a "5% reduction to duration/activation time of modules requiring Astrometrics per level." With the duration bonus on covops changing to a scan strength bonus, the Heron and its sisters should get the same bonus at half the strength, just as they have now. It was so long ago I barely remembered, but early in the skill tree I used the Heron a lot for probing. The only reason I remembered it just now is that I was looking over all the frigates in my hangar, trying to decide on which of the disposeable ones would be best for jumping into unknown wormholes in. As a 90,000ISK frigate with a probing bonus (which it currently has and should retain) the Heron has plenty to recommend it in that role. Greyscale, you're probably way ahead of me and have already made this tweak, but just in case you forgot, please consider this an official elbow-jostling. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:05:00 - [154] Edited by: Hoshi on 17/02/2009 22:05:56 Originally by: Deva Blackfire So in the end people who invested quite a few months to max covert ops skills + scan skills get only an advantage of scanning for frigs? You will save time using a covert ops. This due to more relaxed probe placement. If we take a raven as an example target a Covert Ops pilot with covert 5 and 2 scan rigs can find that target with either 4au probes placed within 1.5 au from the target or 2au probes placed within 1.8au The same pilot using a falcon with ecm rigs would need either 2 au probes within 0.8 au or 1 au probes at any range. I think you can easily save 10-20 sec. Compare this to the 30-35 sec you save today and it's not such a large loss. Especially since you on top of that get the ability to find some targets you otherwise wouldn't be locate. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Terazuk Amarr Rogen's Heroes	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:10:00 - [155] I'm forced to agree that the "UI Widget" for moving the probes is a little clunky, so for my tuppence I offer the following suggestion for improvement: Change the huge ugly cube with arrows sticking out of it into a MUCH smaller graphic that scales with the view zoom, keep the probe range tag and add a flip-bit. Now you just have to click the flip-bit to switch between horizontal and vertical plane movement while you are dragging the probes around with your mouse. Voila! ...simple and intuitive. Fortes Fortuna Adiuvat
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:11:00 - [156] Originally by: Red Woodson Were you probing for a specific mission runner? Were you in a crowded system? did you use ship probes or quest probes? It isn't that hard to find any random mission runner in a crowded mission hub. Usually I was just looking for "mission runners" but I did it both ways -- a ton of quest probes at pre-set bookmarks or carefully overlapping ship probes that covered the entire core of the system. Neither method was a guarantee of finding the only MR in an empty system, I'll grant you; but having spent many hours in low-pop systems, I grew fairly confident in my ability to find most of the mission runners present at any given time. I'm not certain you're wrong here, far from it -- in fact, I think taking chance out of it means that for a dedicated mission prober like me, mission probing will get a little more certain and possibly even a little faster. I'm certainly looking forward to the changes. My point, I guess, is that I don't think the balance is going to shift all that much given the return of a greater player-skill component the greater amount of "interface time" that will now be required. However, as you say, if I turn out to be terribly wrong it's a fast and easy fix they can make. Also worth keeping in mind that there's plenty of sentiment (outside the MR community anyway) that missions are currently too well protected. Obviously that opinion is subject to bitter dispute. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:14:00 - [157] Originally by: Hoshi Edited by: Hoshi on 17/02/2009 22:05:56 Originally by: Deva Blackfire So in the end people who invested quite a few months to max covert ops skills + scan skills get only an advantage of scanning for frigs? You will save time using a covert ops. This due to more relaxed probe placement. If we take a raven as an example target a Covert Ops pilot with covert 5 and 2 scan rigs can find that target with either 4au probes placed within 1.5 au from the target or 2au probes placed within 1.8au The same pilot using a falcon with ecm rigs would need either 2 au probes within 0.8 au or 1 au probes at any range. I think you can easily save 10-20 sec. Compare this to the 30-35 sec you save today and it's not such a large loss. Especially since you on top of that get the ability to find some targets you otherwise wouldn't be locate. Im only looking at around gate/pos probing. Unfortunately if target is active you will NEVER get warpin on him. Cycling safes even each 15 seconds for 15 minutes (to lose aggro) is just too easy. Done it multiple times myself (5+ covops on you? they cant catch you anyways). the most obvious use (and abuse i guess) of new scan system will be placing 4 probes (short range) around gate/moon where fight will be and moving onto the grid. This way you get easy and quick (just one scan cycle) warpin points on all ship classes (except for frigs and some stupidly eccm'ed cruisers which dont exist in normal combat situations). So yeah if we include what you said covops will be useful like once per 1000 situations? If we include exploration then once per 5000? 10000? For me its damn useless.
Bimjo Caldari Domination. Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:23:00 - [158] a question for Hoshi, deepblue, devs or anyone else who has done the maths : In terms of Skills and "Worthwhile Training" , what levels would you recommend the following to ? (Brackets are what I have,or plan to go to) Astrometrics (5) Astrometric Pinpointing(5) Astrometric Triangulation(5) Covert Ops(4) Signal Aquisition(4) I am guessing the last 2 are not worth taking to 5 as they take a long time to do ? thanks ====================
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:24:00 - [159] signal acquisition is rank 4 now???????????????????????????????????????????
DeepBlue Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:26:00 - [160] Originally by: Bimjo a question for Hoshi, deepblue, devs or anyone else who has done the maths : In terms of Skills and "Worthwhile Training" , what levels would you recommend the following to ? (Brackets are what I have,or plan to go to) Astrometrics (5) Astrometric Pinpointing(5) Astrometric Triangulation(5) Covert Ops(4) Signal Aquisition(4) I am guessing the last 2 are not worth taking to 5 as they take a long time to do ? thanks it was worth having those also at 5. but for now i cant say you if it will be really needed to have them at 5. it all depens how low the lowest sig in game will be, once we know this - i can tell you wich skills/implants you need to find every sig inside eve. its no longer luck based. if you have the skill you find it, if not just train up.
DeepBlue Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:27:00 - [161] Originally by: Deva Blackfire signal acquisition is rank 4 now??????????????????????????????????????????? noooo. he has this skill at lvl 4 :P
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:27:00 - [162] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 17/02/2009 22:27:58 Originally by: DeepBlue if you have the skill you find it, if not just train up. if sites dont "scatter" no skill is required... plant 1000au probe, plant 4x 1000au, plant 4x closest range probes at the dot. Done. Quote: noooo. he has this skill at lvl 4 :P good. I just thought i lost 20 days of training.
DeepBlue Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:29:00 - [163] Edited by: DeepBlue on 17/02/2009 22:30:25 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 17/02/2009 22:27:58 Originally by: DeepBlue if you have the skill you find it, if not just train up. if sites dont "scatter" no skill is required... plant 1000au probe, plant 4x 1000au, plant 4x closest range probes at the dot. Done. Quote: noooo. he has this skill at lvl 4 :P good. I just thought i lost 20 days of training. for now a none skilled, not rigged and not implanted player can find everything above a 0.12 sig. i see a time coming where i just can trash my virtues ;(
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:32:00 - [164] Originally by: DeepBlue for now a none skilled, not rigged and not implanted player can find everything above a 0.12 sig. i see a time coming where i just can trash my virtues ;( Thats exactly what im worried about. If some sites were left as "covops only" it would make some sense. For example: X = max scan str. of normal ship 1,5X = max skilled covops 1,5X = normal ship+virtues Then leave some sites (10/10 etc) as findable with 1,5X scan str. Thus you need to either use covops or carry virtues. Both sides happy.
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:38:00 - [165] Originally by: Bimjo a question Bimjo, I just finished skilling one of the probe skills to five and was looking at the other two (which are currently at 4 for me, they'd be 19 day and 30 day trains to take to 5 for me.) I'd like to max them, but there's always opportunity cost to consider. In looking over the nine different skill training plans I've set up in EveMon for various purposes, I see that my default "Combat skills" plan has half a dozen different ship handling and combat skills that I could advance in the time between now and March 10. Given that W-space is going to be ultra dangerous (between the rats and the lack of security) I (regretfully) decided to work on my combat skills. The way I figure it, after the probing system goes live, I'll be able to see how keenly I miss having those extra probing skills, and if I miss them, I can start training them then. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:56:00 - [166] Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 17/02/2009 22:58:41 just a question. IIRC recon probes served scan results that were true at the start of the scan. is that still the case in the new system ? is the scan result a snapshot at the time the scaning started ? --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.02.17 23:28:00 - [167] And now, people.... Formula Time! I spent some time studying the formula of combined probes and I think I might have nailed it down (except for a small detail). To evaluate the final strength of four probes this seems to be the procedure: 1) Signal Strength of each of the single probe. This has already been identified. sig-str% = Size * probe-str * distance-modifier where probe str = prob-base-str/range modifier (1, 2, 4, 8... depending on the range the probe has been set to), and distance-modifier is the same in the old formula e^-((Target Range / Max Range)^2). 2) Signal Strength of each couple of probes. With four probes there are six couples. For each couple you evaluate the average of the signal strength of the two probes and multiply it for a modifier evaluated depending on the angle that the two probes form with the site to be probed. The modifier goes from 0.5 (for an angle of 30 degrees) to 0.822 (for an angle of 90degrees or more). Less than 30 degrees and the two probes are counted as separate and give separate readings. What I still don't know is the exact function that is used to go from 0.5 to 0.822. 3) Average over couple of probes. Well, this is the easy part. You just average the values obtained for each of the couples to obtain the final signal strength. Conclusion So what does that mean? That to obtain the best possible signal you have to put your probes as close as possible to the site, which is to be expected, AND placed so that there is an angle of more than 90 degrees between EACH probe. It does not seem to make a difference if the angle is 90 or more. Disclaimer I did the tests in a plane around a site, which allowed me to get a single signal using only three probes, very useful to reduce the degrees of freedom. What written above about four probes is extrapolation of what I observed for three probes to the case of four probes (singularity went down before I could do more tests).
Barls Babe	Posted - 2009.02.17 23:44:00 - [168] Does anyone have any links/pics for the best way to place the probes when getting in close, as far as triangulation goes with 4 probes.. would this pic be correct? Triangulation
Xelios Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.02.17 23:53:00 - [169] Originally by: Barls Babe Does anyone have any links/pics for the best way to place the probes when getting in close, as far as triangulation goes with 4 probes.. would this pic be correct? Triangulation I've found the easiest thing to do is make a diamond shape around the signal: Only pic I have right now You'll probably want to move the probes closer to the signal, it's usually enough if the tips of all 4 arrows are touching the dot.
Barls Babe	Posted - 2009.02.17 23:58:00 - [170] Edited by: Barls Babe on 18/02/2009 00:01:18 Nice Pic... however I was probing one last night and i had to move them 4 probes in ridiculousy close... so close that it was hard to tell the 4 boxes apart when they were all active and still only then got 82% at most... Am i right in saying that rigs and implants are still not enhancing our skills on SiSi? cause that site was near impossible to find and i have perfect skills. EDIT: spaces ps. also amiright in saying u cannot overlap?
Xelios Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.02.18 00:00:00 - [171] Originally by: Barls Babe Nice Pic... however I was probing one last night and i had to move them 4 probes in ridiculousy close... so close that it was hard to tell the 4 boxes apart when they were all active and still only then got 82% at most... Am i right in saying that rigs and implants are still not enhancing our skills on SiSi? cause that site was near impossible to find and i have perfect skills Right, some sites are impossible to find at the moment. The fixed bonuses should be coming Soon.
Barls Babe	Posted - 2009.02.18 00:08:00 - [172] Ah kk... I'm getting so frustrated... Also, i'll repost this question.. Can you overlap the probes?
Lyvanna Kitaen Minmatar Noonday Sun Corp	Posted - 2009.02.18 00:13:00 - [173] Originally by: Barls Babe Ah kk... I'm getting so frustrated... Also, i'll repost this question.. Can you overlap the probes? Yes, overlapping is allowed and at times required.
COMMANDER KATHRYN Gallente DEATHFUNK Doctrine.	Posted - 2009.02.18 00:35:00 - [174] I'd like the following changes made. 1. Remove your ship's model from the system/starmap (it really gets in the way) 2. If possible change the color for the 2 dots when there is a 3 probe hit ( can be really confusing when you have a 4 probe hit on 2 different sites that are 1au apart from each other. 3. Make the probe movement widget scalable so that when your zoomed in it isnt filling the screen. 4. Allow us to turn off the ability to change probe range by dragging the bubble outward/inward (It gets annoying when you have 4 probes active and overlapped) 5. Make it possible to, if all probes are highlighted in scanner window, change the probe scan ranges as a group rather than only individually. 6. And finally could you make it so that the Starmap is automatically centered on your current location, or atleast an option for this??
Horchan Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.18 00:42:00 - [175] Originally by: COMMANDER KATHRYN Stuff 1. Is a bug, and will hopefully get fixed soon. 2. I rather like the fact that one of the two hits is really a false positive, and since they're red anyway, you know they're not accurate. 3. I concur wholeheartedly, and probably everyone else I've talked to does as well. 4. Good idea, but hopefully we won't have to have the probes so close together once the skill/bonus changes go through. 5. You can shift-drag the size of one bubble, and it will change the range of all active probes. 6. I could be misremembering, but can't you right click in space (even from the system map) and "reset camera"? --- DesuSigs
Havok Pierce Gallente The Bastards	Posted - 2009.02.18 00:54:00 - [176] Originally by: Space Wanderer Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Space Wanderer The only reason people already trained astrometrics to 5 is to use long range probes. Actually back when I trained Astrometrics 5 it was to reduce scan time. This isn't the first time the scan system has changed you know. I know, but my account was closed at that time, so I don't know the specifics of the old old system, except some old guide I bumped into. :-) I'm still training Astrometrics 5 as a pre-req for Jump Portal Generation--Black Ops Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
Georgi Kuriacin Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.02.18 01:48:00 - [177] Originally by: COMMANDER KATHRYN I'd like the following changes made. 2. If possible change the color for the 2 dots when there is a 3 probe hit ( can be really confusing when you have a 4 probe hit on 2 different sites that are 1au apart from each other. I would rather have them change the shape of the 3 probe hits to something other than a dot. Perhaps stars or dots with black centers. That way you could easily tell them from 4-probe hits.
Barls Babe	Posted - 2009.02.18 02:12:00 - [178] Thanks for everyones tips.. been great... just have to wait for this damned patch Apocrypha MK3
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.18 04:23:00 - [179] So I'd like to reiterate that having Deep Space Probes at V makes it completely worthless as a multispectral type probe. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Cassandra Elan	Posted - 2009.02.18 04:32:00 - [180] the new probe field is painfully bright, even with bloom off. makes it near impossible to see what's going on with more than 1 probe around

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