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Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.10 21:08:00 - [271] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Yet Duchess is right. I know some people just dont see difference between balanced/better and imba/pwn (yeh im looking mostly at Bellum here... but i guess thats not an exception). Rockets hitting hull = can full of worms. And its not like you can balance it - more rocket ships = stuff dying faster. To a point where kessy swarm will be able to instapop few battleships before they get even locked. I gotcha, I was just trying to think outside of the box for something unique. /me shrugs
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.11 20:01:00 - [272] Originally by: Gypsio III Quote: Fact is that rockets deal full damage to webbed + scrammed (non-ab) ceptors. Yet not all rocket ships can use 2 mids for tackle ya know? This is the issue. It's all very well doing full damage to a webbed, scrambled, non-ABing target... but that's no bloody use when I meet a dual-prop frigate and my rocket platform doesn't have the medslots to actually fit a web. To an unwebbed dual-prop frigate you're talking about ~25% damage, which is pathetic frankly, given the low DPS to start with. A turret ship can control range and transversal to apply its much superior DPS, what can the rocket user do? So, a 3 midslot ship has an advantage over a 2 midslot one where speed is an important factor. What else is new? Let's try this the other way around: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This is the issue. It's all very well doing full damage to a webbed, scrambled, non-ABing target... but that's no bloody use when I meet a dual-prop frigate and my turret platform doesn't have the medslots to actually fit a web. To an unwebbed dual-prop frigate orbiting me at 500 meters you're talking about ~25% damage, which is pathetic frankly, given the low DPS to start with. A rocket ship can control range and transversal to avoid almost all of my dps while dealing 100% of its own, what can the turret user do? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ever try a scram+web rocket malediction against a crusader? You don't even need an AB to almost completely tank the crusader's damage while orbiting at 500. Here are some examples. It's even easier against a claw, which you just kite at 9km.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.11 20:52:00 - [273] Clap, clap. You killed 4 horribad fit crusaders. Want a lolipop? Even kestrel could do this btw against those fits. But then you someday end up fighting against competetive pilot who actually has a clue and you see how badly your ship is outclassed.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.12 00:35:00 - [274] Originally by: Deva Blackfire <insults, blah blah blah> But then you someday end up fighting against competetive pilot who actually has a clue and you see how badly your ship is outclassed. I have. You'll be hard pressed to find a better Crusader pilot than KurMur and experimenting on the test server resulted in his Crusader dying to my rocket Malediction.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.12 01:22:00 - [275] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/01/2010 01:35:55 I still have no idea what you are trying to prove. If you try to prove that rockets are working fine you already failed by assuming that anti frigate weapon system (and it is anti-frig system as its primary weapon system for frig-hunter interdictor: heretic) is ok IF it engages webbed and scrambled target. Weapon system should be able to damage its favoured target without using 2 additional modules to circumvent its flaws. Any other frig sized weapon system can be made useful by proper positioning and managing transversal, be it lasers, blasters, acs or even artilery. Yet rockets fail in this case as they are totally useless as long as your target is ... moving. So here we go - 1st flaw. But as im talking about speed lets try AB frigates. Oh yes, all other frig weapon systems can damage those by keeping their respective transversal (radial) on par with their weapon tracking. Only piloting skill. What can rocket user do? Cry because without web (or even 2 webs - as single webbed target gets quite nice damage reduction in ~40% range) he is useless. Another flaw which came out after CCP wanted to give AB bonus to AFs. Lets go forward. Engaging larger ships (or even larger frigate sized hulls like bombers/EAS). Rockets compared to other weapon systems lack DPS. Bonused (malediction) rocket launcher deals 18/20/22dps (normal, CN, rage rockets) wheras even stupid gatling pulse laser (which can work in same range bracket) deals 21-26 dps (scorch-AN multi range). So 3rd and easily visible flaw - low dps. Next lets talk about engaging light drones. Or should i just ignore this part and just say light drones are almost invulnerable to this weapon system wheras even small arti can kill them? Ofc the issue doesnt exist only on explo velocity level. In this case you often land in rocket velocity issue: maxskilled rockets fly around 3km/s where most (all?) light drones can outrun them and be invulnerable. Ofc web somewhat reduces the issue. But again: you are saying that weapon system is ok IF you use additional modules to make it work. That makes it 4. Fifth issue: rocket range. If you kite enemies at around 10km mark you already know that rockets dont hit unless enemy is following you. There is additional issue you might not be aware of: some ships STILL fire rockets in front of them so kiting is basically impossible (or possible at reduced ranges). Try heretic for example. Launching rocket from ship forces the missile to move FORWARD from the ship and in case of kiting - you fire it AWAY from enemy just to wait for it to turn back towards its target. As a result you get reduced range. The issue existed (from rocket ships i flown) on vengeance and heretic. Not 100% sure if it was on malediction, cant remember now. Anyho it does exist and its also a major flawh for weapon that shows theoretical range of 10km (8-9 with speed up) and you ending up with ~6km. Hmmm what else. Ahhhh fitting issues. Rocket launchers are short ranged weapon system that eats more cpu than any other frig weapon system (bar medium pulse-beam laser which in reality are destroyer sized mods as they barely fit on any frig maybe save for grid-heavy retribution). CPU heavy weapon system mounted on ships with quite low CPU amount (and again: especially visible on heretic) is not a good idea. But in this case it might be enough to tweak heretic itself. Anyways thats a barrage for you. And stop saying that rockets are ok because when you use 2 more modules they can actually kill stuff. Sure in this case i can kill frigs with stealth bomber if i use webs and multiple-ecm mods. Still it doesnt make torps anti-frigate weapon system just because it is possible to do so. EDIT: also its possible i missed one or two more points, its late and i really cba to dig thru older threads atm.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.12 01:50:00 - [276] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Weapon system should be able to damage its favoured target without using 2 additional modules to circumvent its flaws. Any other frig sized weapon system can be made useful by proper positioning and managing transversal, be it lasers, blasters, acs or even artilery. Yet rockets fail in this case as they are totally useless as long as your target is ... moving. So here we go - 1st flaw. So your argument is that rockets are bad because their damage is reduced by the target's speed? Well, guess what, all missiles behave the way (and drones too). So rockets are bad because they are not turrets? Let me try and drill this into you again. For turrets, relative velocity (and position) are used to reduce dps. For missiles absolute velocity is used to reduce dps. In some situations, you can control one better than the other. Therefore in some situations turrets are better, and in others, missiles are better. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Something about rocket dps. Yes, dps is not very high. Rockets would be amazingly overpowered if they did the same damage as lasers at the same range. I believe I've already explained the advantages of missiles. Originally by: Deva Blackfire But as im talking about speed lets try AB frigates. Oh yes, all other frig weapon systems can damage those by keeping their respective transversal (radial) on par with their weapon tracking. Only piloting skill. What can rocket user do? Cry because without web (or even 2 webs - as single webbed target gets quite nice damage reduction in ~40% range) he is useless. Another flaw which came out after CCP wanted to give AB bonus to AFs. How is your piloting skill going to help you when you are scrammed and webbed and orbited at 1.5 of your tracking speed? Fit a web. I will give you that the Heretic is broken, but from that to broken rockets is a huge leap. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Next lets talk about engaging light drones. Light drones easily die to rockets if you do it properly (explained in a previous post). Originally by: Deva Blackfire Fifth issue: rocket range. If you kite enemies at around 10km mark you already know that rockets dont hit unless enemy is following you. There is additional issue you might not be aware of: some ships STILL fire rockets in front of them so kiting is basically impossible (or possible at reduced ranges). I've never experienced that, but if true, this does need fixing. Originally by: Deva Blackfire And stop saying that rockets are ok because when you use 2 more modules they can actually kill stuff. You say that as if a scram and a web are not standard gear on frigates but some magical extra modules that are only useful to make rockets hit.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.12 02:10:00 - [277] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/01/2010 02:14:31 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/01/2010 02:10:25 Originally by: Faffywaffy So your argument is that rockets are bad because their damage is reduced by the target's speed? Well, guess what, all missiles behave the way (and drones too). So rockets are bad because they are not turrets? Im quite sure i said about engaging your own sized enemy: using rockets (frig weapon) to kill frigs. Im quite ok with engaging cruisers using HAMs or heavies even without additional webs on their face. Same i can use torps vs battleships without heavy webbing - they work ok. Only rockets have gimped explosion velocity compared to their preferred target. Quote: Yes, dps is not very high. Rockets would be amazingly overpowered if they did the same damage as lasers at the same range. I believe I've already explained the advantages of missiles. Your previous quote: Quote: A rocket ship can control range and transversal to avoid almost all of my dps while dealing 100% of its own, what can the turret user do? For example he can control HIS range and HIS transversal to negate your advantages and actually start hitting? And then absolute velocity gimmick means he is hitting you for full (or almost full) damage yet you are always cut the set % (+- a little as he manouvres). You know you arent the only pilot in eve who can actually change ship facing during combat. Quote: Let me try and drill this into you again. For turrets, relative velocity (and position) are used to reduce dps. For missiles absolute velocity is used to reduce dps. In some situations, you can control one better than the other. Therefore in some situations turrets are better, and in others, missiles are better. Im quite sure that at some point (AB frig) relative velocity will also translate onto absolute velocity wheras it wont work the other way. Thus you can reduce relative velocity issue by positioning and you can not reduce the absolute velocity unless you use additional module(s). Quote: How is your piloting skill going to help you when you are scrammed and webbed and orbited at 1.5 of your tracking speed? Fit a web. I will give you that the Heretic is broken, but from that to broken rockets is a huge leap. Again: fitting additional module just to make weapon system work doesnt make it not-broken. So you again prove my point: you absolutely need web to actually kill something = broken weapon system. Quote: Originally by: Deva Blackfire And stop saying that rockets are ok because when you use 2 more modules they can actually kill stuff. You say that as if a scram and a web are not standard gear on frigates but some magical extra modules that are only useful to make rockets hit. Doesnt matter. If i wanted to go NPCing with rockets id prefer to see them damage NPCs without me needing to web (or double web) them. I dont need to web cruiser enemy to kill it with cruiser missile system. I dont need to web BS enemy to kill it with BS weapon system. Yet i need to use web on ship that has least midslots from all classes (frig) to actually damage other frig. And yes - you ASSUME that every frig uses MWD, web, scram. You know why? Because dual-prop malediction will not work because of... broken weapon system. If rockets werent broken you could go dual prop. If rockets werent broken you could go dual tackle (disrupt+scram). So paraphrasing your own words: your argument is that rockets are fine because when you use 2 additional modules you can actually damage your target. And like i said above: in this way i can say everything which is not working is ok. Why people are saying blasters are bad? Use 2-3 webs, AB and MWD and you can get close to enemy and kill it. Same logic, different problem.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.12 02:59:00 - [278] I tire of answering the same arguments over and over again. I have a proven track record using rockets. My rocket skills are maxed out. Nobody would benefit more than me from a rocket boost. I think it boils down to this: People who expect to do significant damage to an untackled frigate will think rockets are broken. People with no such expectation don't care what kind of damage rockets (or any weapon) will do to such a target, because if it's not tackled, it's probably not going to die anyway (unless it does something stupid). Oh, and a disruptor on a frigate is minor annoyance, not tackle. I'm done.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.12 08:48:00 - [279] Originally by: Faffywaffy maxed out rocket guy stuff I'm agreeing with Deva, rockets are ***ed! You should not have* to have perfect skills with a weapon and be in the perfect circumstance in order for a weapon to be decent. Rockets need to be reworked from the ground up. They fill no role what so ever in their current form.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.12 13:41:00 - [280] Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Faffywaffy maxed out rocket guy stuff I'm agreeing with Deva, rockets are ***ed! You should not have* to have perfect skills with a weapon and be in the perfect circumstance in order for a weapon to be decent. Rockets need to be reworked from the ground up. They fill no role what so ever in their current form. Its not even issue of having perfect skills. Surprisingly enough Deva has maxed missile skills too (at least for HAMs and rockets - everything 5 including spec). Again sayin same thing: having to depend on another module or two for weapon to be useful is stupid. Its almost like the idea of using target painters on hostile dreads for your phoenix to deal max damage. Lol. Pretty much web is the AB counter. All missile system (except rockets) work without web. You need one when enemy uses AB to counter his missile evasion velocity. In case of rockets you need TWO webs to counter AB - one for normal speed and another for AB velocity gain.

Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2010.01.12 15:13:00 - [281] Needing to double web a frig to get perfect damage is how it is supposed to be. The real issue is DPS. Most other weapons don't get very good hits on a non-webbed frig either, but they're more effective because of their higher DPS, not because of their superior tracking. Like I've mentioned many a time before, no more than a 20-25% boost in explosion velocity for short range missiles is warranted. A Vengeance gets 20 DPS per launcher after the bonus. A dual light pulse w/ multifrequency gets 23 DPS. I'd rather see the vengeance get 30 DPS per launcher than to keep the DPS as-is while doubling the explosion velocity. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.01.12 23:32:00 - [282] Originally by: Faffywaffy So your argument is that rockets are bad because their damage is reduced by the target's speed? Well, guess what, all missiles behave the way (and drones too). So rockets are bad because they are not turrets? This problem only really applies to frigate sized missiles since bigger ships rarely use AB's. As I said in the other thread, the fact that an AB reduces missile dps by such a HUGE amount is most definitely a problem. Also, RE-drones, yes you can kill them if you're in tight orbit using a web, but what if you use a long point and are orbiting at 20km+ in a gang? Rockets can't touch drones in that situation.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.12 23:49:00 - [283] Originally by: Braitai Originally by: Faffywaffy So your argument is that rockets are bad because their damage is reduced by the target's speed? Well, guess what, all missiles behave the way (and drones too). So rockets are bad because they are not turrets? This problem only really applies to frigate sized missiles since bigger ships rarely use AB's. As I said in the other thread, the fact that an AB reduces missile dps by such a HUGE amount is most definitely a problem. Also, RE-drones, yes you can kill them if you're in tight orbit using a web, but what if you use a long point and are orbiting at 20km+ in a gang? Rockets can't touch drones in that situation. Dont yuou know that EVERY rocket ship uses MWD, web and scrambler? He said so so it must be true. Quote: Needing to double web a frig to get perfect damage is how it is supposed to be. The real issue is DPS. Most other weapons don't get very good hits on a non-webbed frig either, but they're more effective because of their higher DPS, not because of their superior tracking. Not really. You can get good hits in non-web vs non-web frig combat and you can get in single-web vs single-web frig combat. But if you go non-web turret frig vs non-web rocket frig rocket one will always (except rare idiot-pilot case) lose. Web is (and shouls be) counter for AB. And it works well in larger ships/missile systems. HAM, heavy missile, torp, cruise - all work well vs non-ABing ship. If ship uses AB all you need is 1x web to get damage back to its normal level. In case of frigs you need web to get NORMAL level and 2 webs to counter ABing frig. This IS broken. So its not how it was "supposed" to be. Well unless we give additional 2 mid slots to every rocket ship to fit 2 webs.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.01.12 23:56:00 - [284] Originally by: Deva Blackfire In case of frigs you need web to get NORMAL level and 2 webs to counter ABing frig. This IS broken. This.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.01.13 13:50:00 - [285] Let's get this spelled out: - Rockets getting reduced damage on fast targets = fine. - An explosion velocity slower than HAMs = NO excuse whatsoever. _________________________________
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.13 13:56:00 - [286] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Let's get this spelled out: - Rockets getting reduced damage on fast targets = fine. - An explosion velocity slower than HAMs = NO excuse whatsoever. Never said its bad that they get reduced damage on fast target. And by fast target i assume it is the ship that is faster than any other ship in its cattegory (for example vaga getting reduced missile damage compared to other HACs, cynabal to cruisers or dramiel to frigs) OR ship using "speed tanking" modules like overdrives, nanos, ABs. Have absolutely no problem with ships using those getting less damage than non-fit ships. But the moment you engage clear frig hull and get reduced damage its just broken. And yeh the issue comes from rocket explo velocity so both are connected to each other.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.01.13 14:45:00 - [287] Originally by: Braitai Originally by: Deva Blackfire In case of frigs you need web to get NORMAL level and 2 webs to counter ABing frig. This IS broken. This. It's especially broken on ships that have so few medslots - frigates.
Morgals Dark Star Industries	Posted - 2010.01.13 15:39:00 - [288] It would not be so bad but some ship have a bonus to rockets. If your going to make rockets so terrible and at best some sort of secodary bonus..give these ships a normal missile bonus. It does seem odd that rockets are so terrbile that any other weapons system on a rocket bonus ship is still considered more effective. Dark Star Industries Actions speak louder than words. Let us show you=> DSI-Recruitment in game channel
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.01.13 17:36:00 - [289] Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 13/01/2010 17:37:42 Rockets are missiles, therefore should be able to always hit their intended target (even for a small amount of damage, as long as it is within missile range) without needing a web. A web should be used only to increase the damage inflicted due to explosion velocity, not to slow down targets enough so that a rocket can impact on them. If you need one web to slow the target enough to hit, and another to negate the damage mitigation due to ship/explosion velocities, then there is a balance issue. Why do I see people arguing that they are OK if you use a web and scram? When I see rocket crow with 137 dps mentioned, I know I am looking at this fit: [Crow, Rockets] Ballistic Control System II Co-Processor II Damage Control II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Can the guy that said all that stuff about rockets and them being good explain how will that Crow do against this fit: [Taranis, Eltar] Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 1MN MicroWarpdrive I 1MN Afterburner I J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Warrior II x2 Notice that the Ranis, even though it's packing Neutrons (not the best tracking for light hybrid turrets) makes do with only scram. Why should Crow need more, when it's weapons are DESIGNED to always hit? If anyone is proposing that a Rocket bonused ship is good, when it needs to sacrifice both speed and tank and still not get enough gank and not be able to deliver on target, then he is delusional. The fact that you got a few KM because of luck/ surprise factor, it does not make it the rule. It's an exception. Good for you, but still the rest of us would like to have a working as intended weapon system. ----------------------------------------------- This is a line of text without any meaning. -----------------------------------------------
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.13 21:21:00 - [290] Originally by: Tagami Wasp Why do I see people arguing that they are OK if you use a web and scram? When I see rocket crow with 137 dps mentioned, I know I am looking at this fit: [Crow, Rockets] [Taranis, Eltar] That will not be the crow fit (although close), and against a t1 AB Taranis, the crow will still most likely manage to keep outside blaster range (and win). Btw, never shoot frigates with rage rockets.

Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.01.13 21:59:00 - [291] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 13/01/2010 21:59:13 Originally by: Faffywaffy Yes, dps is not very high. Rockets would be amazingly overpowered if they did the same damage as lasers at the same range. I believe I've already explained the advantages of missiles. Battleship and cruiser missiles do exactly that, but for some strange reason, nobody whines about it. Like it or not, frigate missiles are broken. They need at leasta 50% increase in dps, probably more like 100%, to be balanced with other close-range weapons. -----------
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.01.14 00:29:00 - [292] Originally by: Faffywaffy Originally by: Tagami Wasp Why do I see people arguing that they are OK if you use a web and scram? When I see rocket crow with 137 dps mentioned, I know I am looking at this fit: [Crow, Rockets] [Taranis, Eltar] That will not be the crow fit (although close), and against a t1 AB Taranis, the crow will still most likely manage to keep outside blaster range (and win). Btw, never shoot frigates with rage rockets. You said 137, not 138, if you know your crows, that spells it out pretty much. I made an argument, please elaborate on yours. btw, the Ranis fit I posted can do T2 AB just fine. I didn't pay attention to it when I copy pasted, you are right a T2 AB overheated will give it an appreciable edge. Also 2x Warrior IIs will chew the Crow up. ----------------------------------------------- This is a line of text without any meaning. -----------------------------------------------
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2010.01.14 02:17:00 - [293] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington An explosion velocity slower than HAMs = NO excuse whatsoever. I'm beginning to wonder if you are going to grasp the concept of the explosion velocity stat being a meaningless number by itself. It has been explained to you numerous times, yet you continue to insist HAMs have a higher eVel than rockets. This is not so. The real explosion velocity is 170m/s, not 85m/s. Remember it. Though granted an explosion velocity of 212.5 would be more appropriate (25% more), any higher than that would be too much. Originally by: Tagami Wasp Rockets are missiles, therefore should be able to always hit their intended target (even for a small amount of damage, as long as it is within missile range) without needing a web. A web should be used only to increase the damage inflicted due to explosion velocity, not to slow down targets enough so that a rocket can impact on them. If you need one web to slow the target enough to hit, and another to negate the damage mitigation due to ship/explosion velocities, then there is a balance issue. The missile velocity issue can not be remedied until CCP decides to re-define how Destiny handles missiles. Until then, they can not have a reasonable deployment method. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.01.14 14:15:00 - [294] Originally by: Allen Ramses The missile velocity issue can not be remedied until CCP decides to re-define how Destiny handles missiles. Until then, they can not have a reasonable deployment method. The problem with rockets is bigger than the rest of the missiles. It is possible for a target to outrun a rocket, which will fizzle. This needs to be fixed. If within range, (missile velocity * flight time) a target should be hit even for 0 point of damage. It is now possible to MISS with a missile. ----------------------------------------------- This is a line of text without any meaning. -----------------------------------------------
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.14 14:38:00 - [295] I think the whole missile agility issue could be easily fixed by doing just easy check: "if target is within velocity*time it is hit". I know it would make moving out of range (after missile was fired) impossible (it would still count as hit) but on the other hand it would remove issues with launch vector, missiles agility, targets faster than missiles etc.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.14 16:51:00 - [296] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Braitai Originally by: Deva Blackfire In case of frigs you need web to get NORMAL level and 2 webs to counter ABing frig. This IS broken. This. It's especially broken on ships that have so few medslots - frigates. This. And the one ship who actually showed some promise of being able to use (waht I hoped to be a redesigend weapon system) was the Hookbill. But even that ship got messed up due to low PG and low CPU in the design. What on earth was teh designers thinking when they made that ship?? I mean, the slicer was turend into a fine ship, and I see some people liking comat (firetail is just outclassed in all respects to dramiel). So what went wrong with the missile frig? I have used rockets ebough to see that they underperform compared to other missile systems (granted, I don't have all 5, spec is "only" at 4, but supports are maxed). At least exp vel needs a huge boost! I would deem a slight dps boost to be in order as well. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2010.01.14 21:07:00 - [297] Originally by: Tagami Wasp The problem with rockets is bigger than the rest of the missiles. It is possible for a target to outrun a rocket, which will fizzle. This needs to be fixed. How exactly do you think it can be fixed without re-defining the way Destiny handles missiles? There is currently no way of modifying missile velocity for rockets without **ing something else up, particularly because of effective range, flight time, and initial velocity. Originally by:** Deva Blackfire I think the whole missile agility issue could be easily fixed by doing just easy check: "if target is within velocity*time it is hit". I know it would make moving out of range (after missile was fired) impossible (it would still count as hit) but on the other hand it would remove issues with launch vector, missiles agility, targets faster than missiles etc. You're on the right track, however I think there needs to be more to it than this. For rockets, which have the least flight time, this might be the way it works effectively, but the formula can't be so, or else that'd open up more cans of worms. The way I see it, the best way to address the situation is to make flight time a static number which is a multiple of the tick interval, and modify the bombardment skill to apply a velocity bonus, and modify both range skills to 5% instead of 10% while adjusting base stats to compensate(this needs to be done anyway). Each tick interval, a simple vector intercept check would be done, taking only target trajectory and missile velocity into consideration. If the missile can intercept, it's a hit. Otherwise, the missile would be moved in the direction of the intercept vector by however far it can travel, and the check would be performed again in the next tick interval. By doing this, it would fix the initial velocity problem, make missiles intercept targets instead of follow them, and allow vastly increased missile velocities. Collectively, this would make targets outrunning missiles an exceptionally rare occurrence. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.01.15 02:21:00 - [298] Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 15/01/2010 02:21:53 Originally by: Allen Ramses How exactly do you think it can be fixed without re-defining the way Destiny handles missiles? There is currently no way of modifying missile velocity for rockets without ****ing something else up, particularly because of effective range, flight time, and initial velocity... The way I see it, the best way to address the situation is to make flight time a static number which is a multiple of the tick interval, and modify the bombardment skill to apply a velocity bonus, and modify both range skills to 5% instead of 10% while adjusting base stats to compensate(this needs to be done anyway). Each tick interval, a simple vector intercept check would be done, taking only target trajectory and missile velocity into consideration. If the missile can intercept, it's a hit. Otherwise, the missile would be moved in the direction of the intercept vector by however far it can travel, and the check would be performed again in the next tick interval. By doing this, it would fix the initial velocity problem, make missiles intercept targets instead of follow them, and allow vastly increased missile velocities. Collectively, this would make targets outrunning missiles an exceptionally rare occurrence. Good solution to fix trajectory issues, but I am concerned about the lag this will create. However, this does not fix the situation where a ship is firing rockets and the target outruns them and their explosions because a rocket can still fizzle before hitting. ----------------------------------------------- This is a line of text without any meaning. -----------------------------------------------
Xing Fey	Posted - 2010.01.16 11:35:00 - [299] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Braitai Originally by: Deva Blackfire In case of frigs you need web to get NORMAL level and 2 webs to counter ABing frig. This IS broken. This. It's especially broken on ships that have so few medslots - frigates. This. And the one ship who actually showed some promise of being able to use (waht I hoped to be a redesigend weapon system) was the Hookbill. But even that ship got messed up due to low PG and low CPU in the design. What on earth was teh designers thinking when they made that ship?? I mean, the slicer was turend into a fine ship, and I see some people liking comat (firetail is just outclassed in all respects to dramiel). So what went wrong with the missile frig? I have used rockets ebough to see that they underperform compared to other missile systems (granted, I don't have all 5, spec is "only" at 4, but supports are maxed). At least exp vel needs a huge boost! I would deem a slight dps boost to be in order as well. I think it was supposed to use standards, but they have problems of their own (esp fitting)
Grut The Protei	Posted - 2010.01.16 12:54:00 - [300] Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Tagami Wasp The problem with rockets is bigger than the rest of the missiles. It is possible for a target to outrun a rocket, which will fizzle. This needs to be fixed. How exactly do you think it can be fixed without re-defining the way Destiny handles missiles? There is currently no way of modifying missile velocity for rockets without ***ing something else up, particularly because of effective range, flight time, and initial velocity. A max skilled crow will shoot rockets @ 5kms a vengence @ 3.4 kms both for 3 seconds. The speeds to slow to stop approach / retreat / following effects and the flight times to short to cover speedup / orientation effects. I'd write it off as a bad job & let rockets instahit with an optimal of flightimespeed. Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know... Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought



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