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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 19 post(s)
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.02.22 17:20:00 - [1] Please, NO missiles whinage here. Rockets have been subject of a clearly wrong rebalancing. To see it, check out the explosion speeds of heavies/torpedoes: the are higher than the guided versions'. This makes sense, balancing factors are speed and explosion radius. Rockets otoh have explosion speed=missiles+10%-100. This gives them explosion speed slower than the heavy missiles, lol frigate weapon?! They need double webs on cruisers to get near full damage... I think it's clear that some dev dropped a 1 in front of the value when doing some late night updating, and as they're not widely used weapons, this falled down in the middle of the general missile nerf whinage. Please correct! Thanks!
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.02.22 17:38:00 - [2] Originally by: Mohenna They need double webs on cruisers to get near full damage... Learn to missiles. Sig radius/explo radius also comes into equation. And vs cruisers rockets will deal full damage most of the time (even if cruiser uses AB). If there is problem with rocket explo velocity/radius then its vs same ship class. What i mean: they suck at taking out frigs and are anti-frig weapon.
K1RTH G3RS3N Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.	Posted - 2009.02.22 22:54:00 - [3] agreeing with OP here... rockets do seem a little mehhhhhhhhh
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.02.22 23:13:00 - [4] Edited by: Mohenna on 22/02/2009 23:15:09 Edited by: Mohenna on 22/02/2009 23:13:54 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Learn to Please, I asked no trolling. If you want to be constructive check this very informative thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280 where you can find the correct formula. That thread is generic, I'd like this one to be only about missiles. A fast cruiser can lower even rocket damage, with speed, no matter how bigger its sig radius is than the missile's explosion range. And with frigates it becomes sad. From which the lollabity of Khanid ships, to say one. Can something be done about this?
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.02.23 10:40:00 - [5] I think I agree... Quote: Assault ship roles range from an offensive tackler to an anti-frigate ship. Being a frigate-class ship, these ships can be very fast and agile while still able to due a fair amount of damage. Vengeance and hawk fail the "anti-frigate" part thanks mainly to rockets. Imho a mwd frigate, webbed and scrambled, should be taking around full damage from rockets.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.02.23 12:25:00 - [6] Originally by: Mohenna Edited by: Mohenna on 22/02/2009 23:15:09 Edited by: Mohenna on 22/02/2009 23:13:54 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Learn to Please, I asked no trolling. If you want to be constructive check this very informative thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280 where you can find the correct formula. That thread is generic, I'd like this one to be only about missiles. A fast cruiser can lower even rocket damage, with speed, no matter how bigger its sig radius is than the missile's explosion range. And with frigates it becomes sad. From which the lollabity of Khanid ships, to say one. Can something be done about this? And im not trolling here. You clearly dont understand how that formula works. If you dont, open the XLS file (in thread you linked) and check graphs. The rocket graph clearly shows that even versus 2km/s target (thats one VERY fast cruiser) you deal 40% damage if his sig radius is 70. If he burns MWD cruiser sig radius gets to around 600-700 thus gets almost full or full damage (cba to extrapolate or count it from equation right now; sitting at work ;p). When it comes to AB cruisers you are looking at around 400m/s speeds with sig of 120+. On said graph it easily shows that vs 400m/s target you get 100% damage when its sig hits around 65m. As cruisers are twice this size they get hit for full damage. 800m/s cruisers will be hit for around 90% damage (just did fast on-screen extrapolation due to lack of time). Only problem will be AB vaga which is quite fast. Counter? Same as always - web it. So to sum up: rockets hitting cruiser sized targets hit for full (or almost full) damage. Problems start at the point i stated earlier: when you are engaging frigs. AB ceptor is virtually immune to rocket fire (30% damage) and even after getting webbed it bumps up to 40-45% damage. Add poor rocket base damage and you end up with anti-frig system which cant kill frigs.
Mephesto Nizal	Posted - 2009.02.23 12:34:00 - [7] devs, do a bit of last minute tweaking for heavens sake to get this thing sorted :(
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.02.23 15:31:00 - [8] The problem of the graphs is that the rockets are really the black sheep of missiles. Nobody cares. What I feel in game as a low skill points character is different. And we're not discussing the time I spent skilling here, high skills will make this problem be felt less, but the problem persists. And even if the guy got the formula and all the parameters right, still, Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5))) He found out that rocket drf= 3 so Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(1,(85/20 * 125/vel)^(log(3) / log(5.5))) = Base_Damage * MIN(1,(531.25/vel)^0.644) So damage gets nerfed when 1>(521.25/vel)^0.644 -> vel < 521.25 That's quite reachable. Of course the double web on cruiser was quite a hyperbole, but at still one is necessary for pvp cruisers. And I don't think this is right, that weapon should be able to center drones not friggin' space trucks...
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.02.23 15:50:00 - [9] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/02/2009 15:55:15 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/02/2009 15:53:11 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/02/2009 15:51:38 Where did you get 80 sig from? Most cruisers start at 110+ (vaga is 115). 80 is destroyer size. With 115 sig you get 718m/s. EDIT: actually i think vaga is smallest one (deimos 160 O_o thats one fat cow) EDIT2: and like i said before: rockets do suck, but not vs cruisers (vs cruisers they are quite decent actually from small weapons). They suck vs frigs on level that torps suck vs cruisers.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.23 16:24:00 - [10] One a seperate not, rocket do need a base damge boost. As a close range wepaon the pretty much suck.

Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.02.23 16:31:00 - [11] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs One a seperate not, rocket do need a base damge boost. As a close range wepaon the pretty much suck. Yup. And not 5% boost but sth around 20-25%.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.02.23 22:17:00 - [12] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Where did you get 80 sig from? I see no 80? I used 125, 85 is the rocket explosion speed. Imho the rocket is good as it is, in terms of raw damage. But the explosion speed is so wrong that the whole leaves an impression of uselessness. The cruiser talk is sending this thread astray, it was only to say how wrong the explosion speed is. Imho explosion speed should be like a fast AB frigate webbed once. I really think it's just a matter of an error, like dropping a 2 from 285.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.02.26 14:40:00 - [13] Nobody cares about rockets... It's obvious.. But if they're so mistreated it is because they're sub-par...
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.02.26 14:48:00 - [14] Originally by: Mohenna Originally by: Deva Blackfire Where did you get 80 sig from? I see no 80? I used 125, 85 is the rocket explosion speed. Imho the rocket is good as it is, in terms of raw damage. But the explosion speed is so wrong that the whole leaves an impression of uselessness. And this is where you are quite wrong. Ignoring the explosion velocity part (which should be fixed too) here is short list of what is wrong with rockets: - their DPS sucks: rocket launcher WITH 25% damage bonus (malediction, vengeance etc) deals as much damage as unbonused 200mm autocannon while its fitting is MUCH worse - "but they have range" you will say - yes sure they "theoretically" can reach up to 10km. Remove 2km for "speed up" and you get 8km. Remove 2-4km from range if you are kiting enemy (running from him) - because rockets are fired IN FRONT of ship and then they turn back - and you get 4-6km effective range. Now if target its not webbed and orbits - rocket will never hit. Missile agility is just buggered. - they are anti-frig weapon which cant hit frigs - they are just too slow. Even heavy missiles are up to 3x faster than rockets. Result: needs velocity fixed (even at cost of dropping flight time). But if we include bad agility and wrong launch vector of missiles (especially visible on vengeance) then if we increase velocity 2x and decrease flight speed 2x rockets will just vanish before they even start tracking target. Result? Whole "missile launch" mechanics should be looked at. I could go on but dont have time nor i cba to do so. I bug reported the issues ages ago, was accepted waiting for fix. Quote: The cruiser talk is sending this thread astray, it was only to say how wrong the explosion speed is. Imho explosion speed should be like a fast AB frigate webbed once. I really think it's just a matter of an error, like dropping a 2 from 285. With this one i can agree. Rockets vs ab frig = lolz. It just doesnt work, even if frig is webbed.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.02.26 14:59:00 - [15] Not sure exactly what should be done to balance things, but it's clear that rockets are currently pretty much a joke. An anti-frigate weapon that most frigates can just laugh at? I'm ok with them doing relatively low damage generally, but they should be able to apply 100% of that damage to a frigate, especially a webbed one.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.02.26 15:54:00 - [16] Originally by: Deva Blackfire With this one i can agree. Rockets vs ab frig = lolz. It just doesnt work, even if frig is webbed. Yeah. Rockets are okay against webbed non-ABing frigates - they'll do full damage to webbed, non-ABing T1 frigs and AFs, and not lose too much from inties. But the problem is that ABs are actually viable and common on frigates and that rocket platforms often don't have room for a web themselves. Add the missile flight path issues, poor base DPS and tricky fitting requirements and you've got a weapon system that needs help.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.02.26 23:33:00 - [17] Originally by: Gypsio III Rockets are okay against webbed non-ABing frigates Well, yeah, but how many of these do you see? Excluding scrambled mwders... And even in that best-case scenario, rockets lose damage!! Maths to back this wild statement: Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5))) sig=35 rifter (up to 44 tristan) Er=20 Ev=85 drf=3 Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(1,(85/20 * 40/vel)^(log(3) / log(5.5))) = Base_Damage * MIN(1,(531.25/vel)^0.644) So damage gets nerfed when 1>(148/vel)^0.644 -> vel > 148 There aren't many frigates that go faster than this when webbed... But there are some. Moreover, if you start to consider skills, augmentations and warfare links that lower your sig radius you see that the speed lowers even more, and the damage reduction is faster and faster.
Adaera	Posted - 2009.02.27 00:33:00 - [18] A free bump for a broken weapon system. They need a damage boost accross the board and just maybe the ability to, you know, hit things... CCP, really, how long would it take just to make a few stat tweaks on this? ___________________ I for one welcome our new bee overlords
Vall Kor Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.27 15:51:00 - [19] The devs really do need to look into the issue of missiles/rockets. That platform is punished by flight time where turrets are not, one fix is to increase the flight speed and explosion speed of missiles. Well hopefully they'll take a second look at this platform.
Cadde Gallente Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM	Posted - 2009.02.27 16:22:00 - [20] Just to make sure you haven't forgot one vital aspect, nothing in regards to rockets itself that may be crappy, i am a turret user myself. Missiles have a higher chance of dealing damage to a target, as long as the target is in range and isn't flying too fast, they deal damage. While turrets are more random, they only hit when they can track the target. Missiles are exempt from the tracking issue and are only affected by damage reduction on fast moving targets. In a situation where missiles can deal damage EVERY time but turrets have no chance, missiles rule. A fast moving (nano) missile boat can deal damage to a stationary target 100% of the time, while a fast moving turret user is affected by the tracking he is causing by moving fast. Just make sure you consider this before comparing a missile to an autocannon. My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!

Mohenna	Posted - 2009.02.27 16:34:00 - [21] Thanks for the support guys. Originally by: Vall Kor The devs really do need to look into the issue of missiles/rockets. That platform is punished by flight time where turrets are not, one fix is to increase the flight speed and explosion speed of missiles. And agility as some poster above mentioned, I gather. I can't find numbers for rocket agility though... I always assumed the circles and accelerations that they do are graphics only, because the old missiles guide says that flight distance = speed x time.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.02.27 16:37:00 - [22] Originally by: Cadde Just make sure you consider this before comparing a missile to an autocannon. Yes indeed; this is why I don't take the position of some others above who say to raise the rocket raw damage. But the explosion speed is really terrible! It lowers an already low damage exactly in the cases where rockets are supposed to shine, anti frigs and anti drones.
Cadde Gallente Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM	Posted - 2009.02.27 16:50:00 - [23] Originally by: Mohenna And agility as some poster above mentioned, I gather. I can't find numbers for rocket agility though... I always assumed the circles and accelerations that they do are graphics only, because the old missiles guide says that flight distance = speed x time. Missiles are not affected by agility. Only their velocity. Where as guns basically hit or miss instantly. Missiles travel to their target and they travel by X m/s, you really have to think of them as 100 m range tacklers with a 100% chance to hit as long as they don't run out of cap or are too slow. Indeed you can say "flight distance = Speed x time" but keep in mind that the target is moving away so you have to deduct/add some range to allow for them to reach their target. If the missile is moving at 5,000 m/s and the target is moving away from you at 2,500 m/s then your net gain will be 2,500 m/s on that target. With a flight time of 10 seconds, what shows as 50 km's on paper turns into 25 effective range. If the target is beyond that range your missile will not catch up. The opposite is true when the target is approaching you. Then your 50 km range on paper is actually 75 km's in reality if the target continues his path straight for you. Only difference is that when moving away from you, the only thing the target can do is go straight away from you to avoid getting hit or outpace the missile. When approaching you all he has to do is stop at your theoretical max range. But should he approach you at the same speed you can indeed launch at 75 and hit him at 50 as the two will meet there. //Cadde, blah blah blah. My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
Altris	Posted - 2009.02.27 18:02:00 - [24] Please fix rockets. All Khanid capsuleers will be grateful.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.02.27 18:27:00 - [25] Edited by: Tonto Auri on 27/02/2009 18:30:20 Originally by: Altris Please fix rockets. All Khanid capsuleers will be grateful. This. I've posted it in suggestions thread 8 months ago, but my comment has been deleted (3 times) with idiotic "stay on topic" resolution. Here's a copy: Quote: Module: Rockets (torpedoes seems to be okay, HAM's have issues, but I unsure about possible fixes) Issue: They're sucks, comparing... to anything. Okay, I know (well, I really know) - it is absolutely separate weapon classes, but some parallels exists. At least light missiles are closer counterpart, than, say, drones or guns. So, keeping it in mind: Issue #1: Reload time affecting rockets DPS insanely. Namely by 10%. I've had feeling that all what i'm doing flying my Vengeance, is waiting for rocket launchers to reload... then I've placed numbers on paper... and saw it was not only feeling. Suggested fix: Increase launcher capacity. (Double it at least) Issue #2: Single rocket doing close to no damage, they're fired very often, resulting in Issue #1 plus huge load to EVE cluster. Suggestion: Increase duration, damage in half. Issue #3: Rockets are slow. Really... Not a counter to interceptors. Not even close to. I suggest increase in speed. From half to twice increase. Who want to play with numbers: Screenshot and OOo calc document ADD: Considering all these changes, Suggested addition: Increase rocket launchers fitting cost a bit. More precisely, increase PG usage slightly (keep in mind to increase available PG on some ships as well, if that hurts them, namely Kestrel has so weak powergrid, depends on increase, it may never be able to fit rockets on it any more) And I agree with OP of this thread, rockets now doing crappy damage to the frigs due to sig radius and rocket damage calculation formula changes. Twice nerfed weapon :/ -- Thanks CCP for cu
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.02.27 23:01:00 - [26] Edited by: Mohenna on 27/02/2009 23:01:37 Am I the only one with this feeling that rockets explosion speed was intended to be 285 and the 2 dropped? The posts that speak about rocket speed raise good points too. But there seems to be a divergence in opinions, as some say that agility matters while others don't. The missiles guide seems to agree with the no agility version. I've been surfing to try and find an answer but I can't manage. Is there anybody with a definitive answer about this?
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.02.28 11:50:00 - [27] Originally by: Mohenna Am I the only one with this feeling that rockets explosion speed was intended to be 285 and the 2 dropped? That sounds likely.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.03.02 13:23:00 - [28] Well thanks for the support everybody. I added a post to the humongous apocrypha feature request thread... Not that I have much hope for that to work...
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.03.02 14:20:00 - [29] Originally by: Mohenna Originally by: Gypsio III Rockets are okay against webbed non-ABing frigates Well, yeah, but how many of these do you see? Excluding scrambled mwders... And even in that best-case scenario, rockets lose damage!! Maths to back this wild statement: Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5))) sig=35 rifter (up to 44 tristan) Er=20 Ev=85 drf=3 Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(1,(85/20 * 40/vel)^(log(3) / log(5.5))) = Base_Damage * MIN(1,(531.25/vel)^0.644) So damage gets nerfed when 1>(148/vel)^0.644 -> vel > 148 Well, that was my point, that ABs are semi-viable on frigates. I think there's a problem with your maths though - I'm showing full damage with rockets against a 35 m sig Rifter webbed to 215 m/s, with rockets of explo rad 20 m and explo vel 127.5 m/s and the threshold velocity being 223 m/s. Ah, that's the problem, you haven't accounted for TNP in your rocket explosion velocity. But this is away from the point - many frigates don't have the slots to sensibly fit a web, ABs are a semi-viable option on frigates, rocket fitting requirements are excessive, base damage is too low and it's too easy to lose several km of range because of stupid flight path issues.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.03.03 14:00:00 - [30] Originally by: Gypsio III you haven't accounted for TNP in your rocket explosion velocity Yep, on the other hand, I didn't account for the skills/mindlinks that increase velocity and the mindlinks/boosters/implants that decrease sig radius either... Tha analysis can go down to ridiculous depths, but since the top damage is fixed - rocket raw damage - I think that limiting the necessities to one web is cool. Skills can offset for advanced defences.

Zantei	Posted - 2009.03.03 15:33:00 - [31] Bump, It comes down to this one very simple question. Why introduce ships which rely on broken mechanics? Fix rockets, make this game itneresting.
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.03.06 13:09:00 - [32] Devs give rockets some love!
Ketusan	Posted - 2009.03.30 23:26:00 - [33] If you've ever shot a rocket at another fast moving interceptor/frigate you'll quickly realize a horrible conclusion... Even if the rockets are fast enough to catch the target, by the time they accelerate and get within range to contact, they're dead. I've shot rockets in a malediction at a rifter within 5 kilometers, well within skill ranges, and by the time the missile closes in to actually hit, it's gone. In a less than 5km engagement...? Sorry, Rockets need a serious re-analysis, they're specifically listed as:: "A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really intended as a primary weapon but rather as a cheap supplementary weapon system." Yet you've made them a primary weapon system used by a whole race? Please... if you want to make rockets into a primary weapon system for a specific race, then give them stronger bonuses than 5% to 20 damage... which is.. guess what? 21 damage. yay? 1 extra point of damage. Khanid ships with rocket bonuses need A) Longer Range - Either a Speed Bonus or a Lifetime Bonus B) Bigger bay capacity from their, and I quote, "very limited supply". C) Bigger damage output at the cost of relaunch speed to increase the damage output bonus effect.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.03.31 10:38:00 - [34] Thanks for your support guys. Originally by: Ketusan C) Bigger damage output at the cost of relaunch speed to increase the damage output bonus effect. I think you mean, raise base damage, this doesn't work mathematically, you'd get the same dps. Unless you are speaking of alpha only? I'm all for an increase to base damage... Just thought it'd fall on dead ears. Explosion speed seems more likely to happen.
Lenia Aheralel	Posted - 2009.03.31 15:20:00 - [35] I myself did some basic mathematics on this subject. I have determined this; rockets suck. Unbonused ship [scorpion], maxed skills, dps/alpha numbers (no implants or whatnot). 'Close Range' weapons only. {EFT numbers, subject to errors} DPS / Alpha Rocket Launcher II (gremlin rocket): 16 / 34 125mm Gatling Autocannon (EMP S): 20 / 43 150mm Light Autocannon (EMP S): 21 / 52 200mm Autocannon (EMP S): 22 / 66 Gatling Pulse Laser II (Multi S): 23 / 34 Dual Light Pulse Laser II (Multi S): 23 / 46 Medium Pulse Laser II (Multi S): 27 / 68 Light Electron Blaster II (Anti S): 28 / 40 Light Ion Blaser II (Antimatter S): 30 / 64 Light Neutron Blaser II (Anti S): 32 / 80 So rockets... uh... lowest DPS, lowest alpha (tied with GPL II has wrecking). There have been enough posts about range, so I left that out. My Proposal: Raise Rocket damage to around 36 damage. This would make the fully skilled damage to come around 48. Increasing the dps by a factor of 1.375. This would make the new numbers be as follows. DPS / Alpha Rocket Launcher II (gremlin rocket): 22 / 48 This would keep rockets in-line as far as dps/alpha goes, while not making it a WTFPWN weapon system everyone would use. Now, on a bonus ship (Vengeance) This would be a very nice damage boost, bringing it in line with the other Assault Ships (although still pretty pathetic IMO). All of my numbers are completely done through use of a calculator and EFT. This may have resulted in stupid/wrong calculations which will result in their imminent burning. Thanks for participating in "Love your Rocket"
Lysander Collins	Posted - 2009.04.15 10:54:00 - [36] I don't have any math to use here but empirically it does appear that rockets have lost a lot of power. 2 years ago I won a corp frigate tourny with a rocket armed kestrel with meh skills. Now many millions of skillpoints later my rocket armed vengeance sucks.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.04.16 15:07:00 - [37] Edited by: Mohenna on 16/04/2009 15:07:42 It's disheartening that nothing at all is written on the apocrypha 1.1 patchnotes regarding rockets. Rockets need some love. Further proof. Check out these statistics: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20&type=fotmships http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20&type=fotmweapons Nobody at all is using rockets or rocket dedicated ships. (the stats alone are not proof, but together with all the rest bring more and more evidence to the problem)
Admiral IceBlock Caldari Northern Intelligence PuPPet MasTers	Posted - 2009.04.16 15:19:00 - [38] CCP was aiming for rockets to be anti-frigate fast spamming weapon, however, they took a u-turn and basicly said **** it, we'll make rockets more like torps but without the damage. I can hear the CCP office rejoice!
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.04.17 13:35:00 - [39] Good news, on the balance thread there seems to be an outcry for rockets, half the posters put them in the list Go and push the issue!!
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.04.17 17:48:00 - [40] it should be OVER 9000!!!!!! m/s that is could probably use a boost, I haven't used rockets much, got turned off by missiles early on.

Valorous Bob TARSHISH FOUNDATION	Posted - 2009.04.21 04:33:00 - [41] I never realised there was anything wrong with Rockets, but u guys have got some good evidence and have therefore convinced me that rockets need fixing. FIX ROCKECTS! _______________________________________________
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.04.24 17:13:00 - [42] I sincerely hope that this becomes Nozh's next balance thread! It should be an easy enough topic, without drama, that he can deal with it in say, 1 day, after reading the comments, then switch to more complicated stuff that requires more time like t2 ammo.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.04.27 11:34:00 - [43] I concur, rockets are an easy fix! Do rockets next please
GyokZoli Caldari	Posted - 2009.04.27 12:04:00 - [44] Edited by: GyokZoli on 27/04/2009 12:04:33 Originally by: Cadde Originally by: Mohenna And agility as some poster above mentioned, I gather. I can't find numbers for rocket agility though... I always assumed the circles and accelerations that they do are graphics only, because the old missiles guide says that flight distance = speed x time. Missiles are not affected by agility. Only their velocity. Where as guns basically hit or miss instantly. Missiles travel to their target and they travel by X m/s, you really have to think of them as 100 m range tacklers with a 100% chance to hit as long as they don't run out of cap or are too slow. Indeed you can say "flight distance = Speed x time" but keep in mind that the target is moving away so you have to deduct/add some range to allow for them to reach their target. If the missile is moving at 5,000 m/s and the target is moving away from you at 2,500 m/s then your net gain will be 2,500 m/s on that target. With a flight time of 10 seconds, what shows as 50 km's on paper turns into 25 effective range. If the target is beyond that range your missile will not catch up. The opposite is true when the target is approaching you. Then your 50 km range on paper is actually 75 km's in reality if the target continues his path straight for you. Only difference is that when moving away from you, the only thing the target can do is go straight away from you to avoid getting hit or outpace the missile. When approaching you all he has to do is stop at your theoretical max range. But should he approach you at the same speed you can indeed launch at 75 and hit him at 50 as the two will meet there. //Cadde, blah blah blah. Missiles do accelerate after launch as one of the devs replied to my bugreport: Quote: // Missiles always come up a bit short of time x speed as they accelerate to their full speed during which the clock is running but they are not yet going full speed. Also if they have to "turn" after leaving your ship this eats up time as well. This is by design. But yeah, rockets must be fixed.
CrestoftheStars Caldari Violent Force Productions	Posted - 2009.04.27 13:59:00 - [45] Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 27/04/2009 14:03:20 problem isn't the just the rockets its the whole goddamn calculation that they royaly scruwed up when trying to althrough it.. :/ ps: the speed problem is general too, i made a freaking long post a long time ago about the rediculess speeds, compared the speeds of missiles/rockets and aircraft, too prove how rediculess it is that their base speed isn't 2-3 times more then it is (although set down the lifetime to compensate, this would also allow them to be a varible weaponry for fleets. etc.. sigh i simply don't get why the balance team haven't realised this yet :/.. ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.04.28 09:47:00 - [46] Yep not only they accelerate. They appear to start their motion like the bombs, moving towards where the ship is facing. They should at least move towards the target... This for rockets makes quite a difference. The damage is quite low, but the explosion speed is terrible for something that should frag drones like eggs.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.04.28 10:24:00 - [47] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 28/04/2009 10:25:39 Originally by: Mohenna Yep not only they accelerate. They appear to start their motion like the bombs, moving towards where the ship is facing. They should at least move towards the target... This for rockets makes quite a difference. The damage is quite low, but the explosion speed is terrible for something that should frag drones like eggs. This. Also: rockets change dirtection (while following target) each second. This means that target which turns fast will not be hit at all (they have like 2 direction changes and are gone). Tested on close range orbit ceptor (think he was 500m orbit, landed at 3,5km from me doing around 2km/s) - with skills 5/5/dictors 4 (heretic, thus additional 40% to rocket velocity) he was hit 3 times out of around 100 rockets fired.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.04.28 12:52:00 - [48] I don't think we can hope for a rework of the code atm. I'd really be content to see rockets become a high damage, no range kind of weapon. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Tested on close range orbit ceptor (think he was 500m orbit, landed at 3,5km from me doing around 2km/s) - with skills 5/5/dictors 4 (heretic, thus additional 40% to rocket velocity) he was hit 3 times out of around 100 rockets fired. Is this with javelins? It seems not... I don't mind being restricted in the kind of targets I can choose with rockets. I see them as the blasters of the missile side: give them power, not range! I can live with interceptors being kinda immune to them unless you're or using javelins, or tailing them with another intie... "Tailing inties with another intie" OMG the images of dogfights that this sentence awaken in me disturb me to a whole new level. I thought I had forgotten the Topgun movie craze - but apparently, it was only removed /dooms the friggin na-na-na-nananana... theme, took me ages to remove it from my head
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.04.28 13:37:00 - [49] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 28/04/2009 13:47:06 Normal ammo not javelins (so ~14km range). Still its mostly due to their agility. Maxskill rocket has 3 seconds flight time: 0s - launch 1s - missile flies forward (3-4km dependant on velocity skill and ship) 2s - missile turns towards target. If target is behind you missile will be more-less near you at this point 3s - missile moves 3-4km from your position towards enemy. Effective range (for enemy "behind" you): 3-4km. If hes on the side it is around 5-6km. And this is IGNORING the fact that enemy might be moving thus range gets reduced further. So pretty much we land inside blaster/ac range with poorest DPS of all weapons in game. Note to above: javelins might help a bit but not much. Its still 1 second forward, 1 second back so you always lose 1/3 of range on 1st second. Easy to see on vengeance while running from NPCs (they follow). Your range is not 15km but some pathetic 8km. EVEN tho enemy follows you = gets closer (into incoming missile). Fixes? 1. fix launch vector so rocket start following target as soon as its launched instead of moving forward 2. if (1) is not possible add another second to their flight time and improve range. Yes it might be even 15-20km on maxskilled (no ship bonus) rocket, effective range will be cut almost in half anyways. Speed is needed to catch up to ceptors (lol @ rocket being anti-ceptor weapon - like on heretic) 3. increase rocket DPS. If no range increase is given make em even 25-40% stronger. If range boost is given (as per 2) it might be less but they still need damage boost (15-25% in this case i guess). Reason about damage boost? Even after damage increase rockets still suffer HEAVILY from new missile damage formula up to the point where ceptor moving WITHOUT speed mods (just plain chassis speed) can mitigate up to 40% of DPS (IIRC, correct me on this one if its more/less, i cba to find missile damage formula right now). Point (3) can be changed depending on other rocket stats (like explo velocity etc). Its obvious that 25-40% damage boost with changes to explo velocity/radius so there is no negation from speed might be way too much, so it has to be balanced a bit. It was just general idea(s) for fix. Also its worth to consider what was said earlier (forgot who posted it). Make rockets into short burst VERY heavy DPS weapons. Give them 300dps but reduce their clip amount so after reloads its ~120-140dps on for example malediction (so clip would have to be emptied in 10 seconds?). But this weapon type change should be done AFTER points 1-3 were taken into account. EDIT: oh yea i almost forgot. ROCKET LAUNCHER FITTING REQUIREMENTS. Reduce them please. Or give more CPU/grid to heretic. After 6x launcher barely anything fits to this ship...
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.04.28 14:28:00 - [50] Yeah. The range - no pls, the vector - yes pls. Why? Because dps and explosion speed should be more important imho. Range is for missiles. The grid - it's a bit strange I concur, both for rockets and missiles, but that's touching a lot of things at the same time. While it's CCP's normal modus operandi, I can't see that as a good thing in game balance terms.

Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2009.04.28 14:56:00 - [51] Fix? Make rockets, missiles and torps insta-hit. Yes you heard me... everytime this damn weapon platform comes up it's always; "Yeah yeah, but they always hit, no tracking, blah blah, they are low, reliably DPS. Problem is, they're not. They are low base dmg, correct, but they don't always hit. They need ages to reach their target, in which the target is most likely moving, reducing that freaking lying "EFT godlike range" or simply warp off. If you would make just one change, make them insta-hit. They would be the reliable, low dmg, choose your dmg type weapons everybody is talking about. No tracking, explosion radius and explosion speed vs. signature radius and target speed. That's all that should matter. All the crap that happens from when the crap leaves the tubes and until they "hit" royally ****s with the intended purpose of these weapons.
Georgina Eldridge	Posted - 2009.04.28 15:45:00 - [52] Originally by: Pohbis Fix? Make rockets, missiles and torps insta-hit. Yes you heard me... everytime this damn weapon platform comes up it's always; "Yeah yeah, but they always hit, no tracking, blah blah, they are low, reliably DPS. Problem is, they're not. They are low base dmg, correct, but they don't always hit. They need ages to reach their target, in which the target is most likely moving, reducing that freaking lying "EFT godlike range" or simply warp off. If you would make just one change, make them insta-hit. They would be the reliable, low dmg, choose your dmg type weapons everybody is talking about. No tracking, explosion radius and explosion speed vs. signature radius and target speed. That's all that should matter. All the crap that happens from when the crap leaves the tubes and until they "hit" royally ****s with the intended purpose of these weapons. YES MAKE EVERYTHING THE SAME SO ITS ALL FAIR ITS NOT FAIR THAT DIFFERENT RACES HAVE DIFFERENT WEAPON SYSTEMS WHICH DO DIFFERENT THINGS. Q_Q
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.04.28 15:59:00 - [53] Do you have emotional problems? All your posts are in caps.
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2009.04.28 19:40:00 - [54] Originally by: Georgina Eldridge YES MAKE EVERYTHING THE SAME SO ITS ALL FAIR ITS NOT FAIR THAT DIFFERENT RACES HAVE DIFFERENT WEAPON SYSTEMS WHICH DO DIFFERENT THINGS. Q_Q Yes, having ammo fly towards your target, under a mechanic that works like crap because of the way the engine works is truly amazing diversity. What would instahit change? Nothing but make missiles on par with the other weapon systems. And please, the same? Try reading and comprehending, instead of searching for your CAPS key. All mechanics that make missiles missiles would still be there. Explosion velocity, explosion radius. Damage would still be calculated the same. Everythings is still there... except the FUBAR travel ****up that makes missiles nothig than a PvE mission runner weapon, or secondary choice in PvP if you can't bring anything else. There's is not a single missile-boat, where people wouldn't switch to the turrect equivilant in a heartbeat if they were given the choice. That alone speaks volumes about how subpar missiles are.
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.04.28 20:02:00 - [55] Fun fact: UNBONUSED AUTOCANNONS (not even blasters) do more damage than bonused rockets. Problem gets worse when reload times are included. Not to mention the silly explosion radius/speed problem they have; totally useless in inty combat. They need a buff, badly. _______ ◕◡◕
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.04.28 20:17:00 - [56] Originally by: Pohbis There's is not a single missile-boat, were people wouldn't switch to the turrect equivilant in a heartbeat if they were given the choice. That alone speaks volumes about how subpar missiles are. Cerb.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.04.28 20:22:00 - [57] Originally by: Pohbis There's is not a single missile-boat, were people wouldn't switch to the turrect equivilant in a heartbeat if they were given the choice. That alone speaks volumes about how subpar missiles are. Drake.
yani dumyat Minmatar purple pot hogs	Posted - 2009.04.28 20:52:00 - [58] Originally by: Pohbis There's is not a single missile-boat, were people wouldn't switch to the turrect equivilant in a heartbeat if they were given the choice. That alone speaks volumes about how subpar missiles are. Hawk (After Nozh reads this sense and succumbs to the common sense within) Sig_________________________________________________________________________________ My alliance, corp, psychiatrist and parole officer claim no responsibility for my actions on these forums.
Ellena Manim	Posted - 2009.04.29 01:47:00 - [59] Rocket in fact has a single advantage over other missile system. They are defender immune. By the time the defender has acquired the rocket as a target rocket has landed and the defender stupidly fly around looking for a target. But yeah, other then that, it is pretty crappy DPS. I got more skill points in rocket then small laser yet my retribution eat trough ships about twice as fast as the vengeance. So what ever is done, something must be done. Less reload time, Less room taken by 1 rocket More raw damage More explosion velocity More speed or even an FoF rocket , I'm open to ANY type of change. Let's face it, that weapon system is so crappy that no mather what it is changed by CCP, it will be a boost. Even nerfing it would be a boot to rocket-based ships has it will force them to get a other weapon system... which are better.
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.04.29 02:00:00 - [60] Edited by: Great Artista on 29/04/2009 02:01:38 dblpst. :( _______ ◕◡◕

Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.04.29 02:01:00 - [61] Edited by: Great Artista on 29/04/2009 02:02:19 Changing the rocket bonus on vengeance to 10% (totaling to effective 6 launchers) and malediction to 15% (totaling to effective 5.25 launchers) per level, accompanied by making the rockets able to hit ABing frigates WITHOUT WEB ASSISTANCE for full damage should do it. MWD assisted frigs would still go faster than the rockets, but getting caught by scrambler would be devastating. Seems balanced, no? _______ ◕◡◕
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.04.29 03:02:00 - [62] Originally by: Great Artista Edited by: Great Artista on 29/04/2009 02:02:19 Changing the rocket bonus on vengeance to 10% (totaling to effective 6 launchers) and malediction to 15% (totaling to effective 5.25 launchers) per level, accompanied by making the rockets able to hit ABing frigates WITHOUT WEB ASSISTANCE for full damage should do it. MWD assisted frigs would still go faster than the rockets, but getting caught by scrambler would be devastating. Seems balanced, no? Heretic, flycatcher, hawk, rocket crow, eris (partially) cant agree with above. you forgot about em. But yeh hitting frigs for full damage (even non-AB ceptors) would be good start. And to the guy from previous page: all missiles are immune to defenders if fired from short range at target. I think its about 2-3 seconds flight time (times velocity = range) that is enough to evade defenders. So 10km/s heavy missile from cerb will evade defender if fired from 20-30km (cant check now but a while ago i could evade defenders even from 40km ;p but those were NPC ones).
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.04.29 03:13:00 - [63] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Heretic, flycatcher, hawk, rocket crow, eris (partially) cant agree with above. you forgot about em. Erm... "Whoops". But come to think of it, Hawk and Crow get a nifty range bonus, thus one trades damage for range with those ships. Which goes well with the current game mechanics. Up close with the amarr, or stay in range with caldari, fills the niche, aye? For interdictors, I couldn't say much more than eft-theorycraft as I have no experience of them whatsoever, maybe someone else could contribute on those...? _______ ◕◡◕
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.04.29 11:35:00 - [64] Not really, the caldari also get the same dps bonus, more or less, but only on kinetic, so amarr are free to chose damage, while caldari are free to chose range in thoery while fitting. Of course the std missile launcher hawk is even worse a lolfit than the rocket one. So no, I'd rather fix rockets than change the boats.
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.04.30 14:56:00 - [65] OK now that the naglfar is not naglfail anymore please make the rockets not LOLrockets anymore!!
Marquis Zenas m3 Corp BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.04.30 16:05:00 - [66] Agreed, rockets need an adjust. I want my Vengeance to be more than something to spin in station when I'm bored! --------------------------
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.05.19 15:02:00 - [67] The naglfail fix made it obvious that the devs consider the explosion speed of citadel torpedoes wrong at least. I would like to hope that this means they'll propagate a buff to explosion speed down to all the unguided missiles, buffing rockets (a weapon intended for drones among other things) to serious levels. A buff to damage is also asked for a great majority. This fix is easier than blasters as nobody is against it. Fix this before blasters!
Ulstan	Posted - 2009.05.19 15:37:00 - [68] Edited by: Ulstan on 19/05/2009 15:38:53 I think Rockets are the most broken weapon system in the game, frankly. It fails spectacularly as being an effective anti-frigate system. Sure it may have some minor issues vs cruisers, but I'd rather see the issues vs frigates addressed - and that would almost certainly take care of any cruiser issues as well. They need to do more damage, travel faster, and have a better explosion velocity. The Malediction and Vengeance look awesome and have awesome names. It's too bad when fit with their intended weapon system they do atrociously bad DPS. But I don't want to see special bonuses only to malediction and vengeance...it's the rocket system itself that is broken and should be addressed.
Midday Toker	Posted - 2009.05.19 15:57:00 - [69] I havent really seen anyone comment on the T2 Rocket Ammo. Its totally ****ed. They are completely worthless. Infact we got a few of the rocket ammo BPO's during the T2 lotto, We built 100k units of each. We still have like 40k of each of them still. And thats years after they were built. Hell we cant give these things away. Please reaxmine the whole lot. Rockets in general, And their t2 Ammo varients.
Marquis Zenas m3 Corp Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.05.19 16:21:00 - [70] Originally by: Midday Toker I havent really seen anyone comment on the T2 Rocket Ammo. Its totally ****ed. They are completely worthless. Infact we got a few of the rocket ammo BPO's during the T2 lotto, We built 100k units of each. We still have like 40k of each of them still. And thats years after they were built. Hell we cant give these things away. Please reaxmine the whole lot. Rockets in general, And their t2 Ammo varients. Completely agree on the state of T2 rocket ammo - they act as stealth nerfs to the frigates which traditionally are supposed to use them. They either give a sig radius penalty which increase a frigates signiature radius. Or alternatively slowing it down. If you fit a full rack of launchers on a vengeance, load T2 ammo and then try to afterburn, marvel at the 200 m/s speed (I exaggerate but you probably get the idea)! Pathetic -------------------------- Sigless

Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2009.05.19 16:29:00 - [71] Yet another problem of t2 rockets (and missiles) that each bay loaded with t2 ammo has cumulative penalty. If t2 turret ammo primarily applies tracking penalty to current turret only, but each javelin rocket reduces speed of its carrier.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.05.20 07:38:00 - [72] Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Yet another problem of t2 rockets (and missiles) that each bay loaded with t2 ammo has cumulative penalty. OMG is it not even stacking penalized?!? Originally by: Midday Toker Please reaxmine the whole lot. Rockets in general, And their t2 Ammo varients. Ditto Originally by: Ulstan But I don't want to see special bonuses only to malediction and vengeance...it's the rocket system itself that is broken and should be addressed. Ditto!
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.05.20 13:35:00 - [73] Edited by: Great Artista on 20/05/2009 13:38:37 Page 2? I don't think so. Rockets also need the ridiculously low capasity increased. 50-60 rockets per clip minimum, thanks. Rocket specced ships need a REAL damage bonus, because in frig size, they can't fit BCU like the caldari variants, being armortankers and all. 15% dmg bonus per level for malediction and 10% to vengeance, IN ADDITION TO THE EXPLOSION SPEED/RADIUS FIX. Edit: Whoops, seems it echoes here. Its for a good cause anyway. ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told. ◕◡◕
Haral Reimo	Posted - 2009.05.20 13:39:00 - [74] Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Yet another problem of t2 rockets (and missiles) that each bay loaded with t2 ammo has cumulative penalty. If t2 turret ammo primarily applies tracking penalty to current turret only, but each javelin rocket reduces speed of its carrier. T2 laser crystals do this too. Gleam for example has a 10% penalty to shield HP, so a full rack of 8 lowers HP by 57%
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2009.05.20 21:18:00 - [75] Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 20/05/2009 21:23:45 Originally by: Mohenna Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Yet another problem of t2 rockets (and missiles) that each bay loaded with t2 ammo has cumulative penalty. OMG is it not even stacking penalized?!? Just checked in EFT - seems so. 3 launchers drop speed to 79.14% of original (which equals to 0.925^3 w/o any stacking penalty applied). Originally by: Haral Reimo Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Yet another problem of t2 rockets (and missiles) that each bay loaded with t2 ammo has cumulative penalty. If t2 turret ammo primarily applies tracking penalty to current turret only, but each javelin rocket reduces speed of its carrier. T2 laser crystals do this too. Gleam for example has a 10% penalty to shield HP, so a full rack of 8 lowers HP by 57% I kept this example in mind, but the only ships that are affected by this penalty are sansha ships (and, probably, zealot with damage/tracking/speed mods and shield tank). In other words, gleams apply penalty to the shield which is rarely used on laser ships. Anyway, gleams suck and nobody uses them (that's story for another whine thread), as AN multifreq crystals are much better. Completely other thing is rockets - they're designed for small, fast and agile ships. Any penalty to speed, agility or signature radius nearly renders such ammunition useless.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.05.26 17:21:00 - [76] A new thread regarding rockets has delivered only bickering. I would rather bump this then ;) Hopefully this sadly underpowereded weapon system will be looked after before blasters (which are fine btw)
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.05.26 17:56:00 - [77] Originally by: Mohenna A new thread regarding rockets has delivered only bickering. I would rather bump this then ;) Hopefully this sadly underpowereded weapon system will be looked after before blasters (which are fine btw) Any and all discussion is good imo. ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told. ◕◡◕
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.05.26 19:46:00 - [78] While I agree, I do believe that the main problem is explosion speed. The rest is less obvious and open to a lot of debate.
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2009.05.26 19:50:00 - [79] I would argue the main problem is missile velocity, followed very closely by explosion velocity. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.05.27 09:14:00 - [80] Yes, they are both aspects of the same problem, that became apparent after the web nerf.

Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.05.27 10:09:00 - [81] Base damage is tragically low as well. The Kestrel gets nice kinetic EFT DPS, but only because it has a 50% damage bonus.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.05.27 11:41:00 - [82] and 4 launchers... (malediction problem in this case)
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.05.28 08:42:00 - [83] Well, we all know how the devs do the small steps with balance tweaking. I would rather see a threadnought asking for a fix to explosion/flight speed, and hope in a bigger tweak than expected, than see the threads go down the sink of derailing and see nothing at all...
Admiral IceBlock Caldari Northern Intelligence	Posted - 2009.05.28 09:27:00 - [84] This. Quote: - their DPS sucks: rocket launcher WITH 25% damage bonus (malediction, vengeance etc) deals as much damage as unbonused 200mm autocannon while its fitting is MUCH worse
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.05.29 09:26:00 - [85] Well, it seems that everybody agrees. Our only hope is to keep this thread on the first page until it's noted. Hopefully before the blasters (that are fine btw )
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.05.30 09:51:00 - [86] Edited by: Yankunytjatjara on 30/05/2009 09:52:19 One question is important imho, and I can't see clear answer in this thread. Would you rather see the rockets as fleet weapons (great increase in dps, no increase in explosion speed, need a pal to web them) solo weapons (low dps, high increase in explosion speed) I think that it's important to avoid a hybrid thing, that wouldn't be good in either scenario. I vouch for a change in one direction, not both, and as this game seeks balance, you can see that changing only in one direction has room for the biggest improvement. In my opinion, rockets should be used with two webs against average ABing frigates and one web against average ABing cruisers. They should be fleet weapons in this sense. I ask a big raise in dps, and a little tweaking in explosion speed to take afterburners into account.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.05.30 11:47:00 - [87] Umm... are blasters fleet weapons? Autocannos? Lasers? Or maybe standard missiles? Or heavies? Heck, even HAMs. All those systems work well with point(normal, not scram)+web on target. Rockets dont work well even when you web another frig.
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.05.30 17:50:00 - [88] Nice devblog, caldari space sure lacks agents. Good thing problems aren't being ignored. ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told. ◕◡◕
Lee Dalton Beyond Suppression	Posted - 2009.05.30 17:55:00 - [89] Bump for an important issue. *** You're only as good as your last fight.
Daria Hahn	Posted - 2009.06.01 17:19:00 - [90] Page 2? Nu-uh. :3

Mohenna	Posted - 2009.06.01 21:34:00 - [91] Originally by: Yankunytjatjara Would you rather see the rockets as fleet weapons (great increase in dps, no increase in explosion speed, need a pal to web them) solo weapons (low dps, high increase in explosion speed) I see your point. Personally I'd rather have rockets being good for solo work, being a frigate weapon - leave fleets to bigger ships. That's why I entitled the thread 'correct explosion speed'. But, anything different from the current state would likely be an improvement...
Template Girl	Posted - 2009.06.02 03:41:00 - [92] Just wanted to drop in and bump for a rocket boost. If they are on the low end of small weapon damage, they should at least be reliable to always hit. I wouldn't mind rockets being the lowest damage small weapons if they had more of a 'reliability'. Another alternative is to boost rocket ship damage bonuses (from 5% to 7.5% or 10%) and then they become more like real rockets, powerful but unguided missiles.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.06.02 07:50:00 - [93] Originally by: Template Girl Another alternative is to boost rocket ship damage bonuses (from 5% to 7.5% or 10%) and then they become more like real rockets, powerful but unguided missiles. I'm afraid that wouldn't work. You get a mess with the ships that boost both missiles and rockets... I can't but think that the weapon itself needs a serious boost. Thanks for the bump!
Ulstan	Posted - 2009.06.02 18:07:00 - [94] The weapon system itself is what needs fixing. Sure you could try to address each ship with rocket bonuses instead of addressing the rocket system but...why would you? And what about ships that dont' have rocket bonuses but do have utility highs that could be used for rocket launchers like the Rifter and Merlin?
Karl Luckner	Posted - 2009.06.03 02:11:00 - [95] Well, a bit difficult in my opinion. Rockets need both, more damage and better explosion velocity. In case of the Malediction, I think the ship should give a rocket velocity bonus, to make it viable as interceptor weapon. Maybe further improved rate of fire would be nice. You could fire your rocket salvo for high burtst damage, then you would have to reload.
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.06.03 19:41:00 - [96] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Umm... are blasters fleet weapons? Autocannos? Lasers? Or maybe standard missiles? Or heavies? Heck, even HAMs. All those systems work well with point(normal, not scram)+web on target. Rockets dont work well even when you web another frig. Double web vs. AB-ing frigates. I mean that the explosion speed should be more or less the speed of an AB-ing frigate minus twice the effect of a web, needing a fleetmate (two in case of amarr). In this sense they should be considered fleet weapons. Imho.
Voridor Malevolence	Posted - 2009.06.04 08:29:00 - [97] Bump for my Khanid friends. Fix ****in rockets already.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.06.04 11:11:00 - [98] Originally by: Yankunytjatjara Originally by: Deva Blackfire Umm... are blasters fleet weapons? Autocannos? Lasers? Or maybe standard missiles? Or heavies? Heck, even HAMs. All those systems work well with point(normal, not scram)+web on target. Rockets dont work well even when you web another frig. Double web vs. AB-ing frigates. I mean that the explosion speed should be more or less the speed of an AB-ing frigate minus twice the effect of a web, needing a fleetmate (two in case of amarr). In this sense they should be considered fleet weapons. Imho. My point is: there is absolutely no small weapon that needs 1 bar 2 teammates to be effective. Its just stupid idea IMO. You already pay heavily in range (for lulz damage) for the weapon to be dependable on others. Its almost like saying that you need mega+2 more megas to start hitting another battleship. Weapon should be effective vs target of its own size without help of others (with the exception of highly specialised ships like HAMs vs vaga where vaga is specialised to speedtank and needs to be webbed).
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.06.04 15:52:00 - [99] Imagine if this issue was be with large weapons. They'd take the server down to fix it. ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told. ◕◡◕
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.06.04 21:47:00 - [100] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Its just stupid idea IMO. NO U Actually you're missing my point, but it's my fault I posted it in several posts. To reinstate it: I think the rockets' dps should be upped a LOT, say +60-70% without any change to explosion speed but the minimum that I said above. This makes them the blasters of the missile world: they need webs (and since we're talking about frigates, this means fleetmates) but if do your thing correctly, they omgwtfpwn. Also, this makes them stronger against cruisers: at the current damage level, a cruiser will just tank your damage out until 2 drones kill you.

Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.06.04 23:14:00 - [101] Idea is decent but tbh id prefer just smaller damage boost + some fixes so they actually work. As for vs cruisers. Even if you give em 100% damage boost 2 small drones will kill you before you kill decently tanked cruiser. So rockets should be viable vs small drones and forcing em to work as "fleet weapon" you described, well, they wont kill small drones anymore (not like they do it now...)
Karl Luckner	Posted - 2009.06.05 00:58:00 - [102] I guess it depends heavily on the ship you are flying. I want to have a goddamn weapon on a malediction to get rid of Warrior II's ASAP.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.06.05 01:14:00 - [103] Well rockets are (should be) primarily used by: vengeance, malediction, heretic and partially hawk and crow. All of em want to kill light drones as fast as possible using their weapon system. Result: rockets should (and need) to be able to kill drones which are max 1x webbed (would be better if they could kill nonwebbed, orbitting drones).
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.06.05 12:23:00 - [104] I think I see both points: if you consider them fleet weapons, and you get in a drones situation, with more damage and webs around you should be able to dispatch the drones in a small gang fight rather easily. Still, I prefer the solo weapon approach. Because I like to go solo, and for the reasons stated by the other posters. Also, one thing is important to say at this point. The worst that can happen is that CCP decides to go hybrid and gives half a boost to dps and half a boost to explo speed, leaving them not so good at both. Let's try to reach a consensus!
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.06.07 22:30:00 - [105] The Khanid Kingdom has been granted a full seat on the Privy Council. Our first vote is to overhaul the friggin rockets!!!
Murbella Venturi	Posted - 2009.06.09 23:46:00 - [106] damn straight.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.06.18 18:56:00 - [107] Seems many threads about balance are being moved to features and ideas, but I can't see the merit of that policy as there they'll be mixed up with the new ideas that need dev time rather than some numerical tweaks. Anyhow - here's some more proof of missile love: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1100522
agroculture two	Posted - 2009.06.20 11:32:00 - [108] i didn't read all the replies on this topic but i like to add that not only low SP pilots need to use small weapons. in FW best choice for solo roaming are frigate size ships and missile pilots don't have good option there(i have 0 SP in turrets and 10mil SP in missiles, and i wont start training turrets now, simply i don't use frigates). fix roflckets, they cant be ignored, there r lot of pilots (like me) that have less fun because we cant use frigate size ships.
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.06.25 23:18:00 - [109] Bump for a more important thing than the blaster whinage
BiggestT Caldari Oz Space Diggers	Posted - 2009.06.26 09:24:00 - [110] I have never, nor will I ever, used rockets in 2 yrs of flying caldari. Unless they make them viable for frigate-sized craft, that fact is not about to change.

Mohenna	Posted - 2009.07.17 13:07:00 - [111] For great justice!
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.17 13:12:00 - [112] Give rockets at least more base damage. When an unbonused gun does a job better on a rocekt bonused ship, something is wrong. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.07.18 03:34:00 - [113] Fix rockets NAO!
HeliosGal	Posted - 2009.07.18 10:03:00 - [114] rockets need a fix of some sort
Takal Veron	Posted - 2009.08.12 14:04:00 - [115] Bump!!!
Saint VII Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.08.13 17:48:00 - [116] Though I am a beginner, I shall bump. When my friends and I started to play EVE, we obviously had a lot to learn (and still do). So there were questions we would ask eachother. One such question that we discussed for a while was, "why would I ever use rockets?" The only answer we could come up with was "you would only used them if you were forced to do so, by grid/cpu limitations." They're just bad. I'm inclined to agree with others who have stated that there was simply a mistake made when these values were populated. They are clearly wrong on their face. It seems to me like the problem largely stems from the fact that it is nearly impossible for a missile to miss. With turret weapons, there are tradeoffs as you get bigger guns, so that bigger is not always better. This really isn't true with missiles. Folks who complain about the flight time / delay with missiles are imo complaining about something totally moot. It's not as if the game waits for the missile to make contact before it begins the cooldown/recycle timer. So that minor, initial delay is literally a nonfactor after the first weapon has been launched. I think there's a reason why people refer to caldari missile boats as "ezmode" for missions - there are surely some balancing issues here. No great scoundrel is ever uninteresting.
Zlut Gothica	Posted - 2009.08.14 00:43:00 - [117] You know there's a problem with a modul, if you're better off by fitting unbonused turrets instead. Malediction, Vengeance and Heretic are all better off by fitting Small Autocannons instead of Rocket Launchers. Hell... the Heretic is even better off by using only 4x 200mm AC II then with 6x Rocket Launcher II.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.08.18 16:24:00 - [118] We NEED the rockets fixed before Dust514 is out... What better weapon to squish the soldier pods before they land on the planet!!
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2009.08.24 14:57:00 - [119] I unserstand that CCP has lots of thingies to rebalance... imo weapon system revision would be cool (major overhaul with new cool side-effects like 'lasers heat enemy hull and modules', short-range t2 ammo revision included), rigs revision, but i hope that 'preliminary' rebalance for the rockets is in ccp's plans
Ulstan	Posted - 2009.08.24 15:30:00 - [120] I think it's high time rockets received some tuneups to make them a viable weapons platform, instead of the one that is so terrible even ships that are supposed to use rockets will use unbonused auto cannons instead. The explosion velocity is much too low. Damage is significantly too low. The rockets also suffer range issues due to the way they accelerate and leave the ship, but I'd probably be willing to give up that extra range I'm supposed to have for rockets that are worth using at least at some range. Right now they are simply uniformly bad.

Shootaship	Posted - 2009.08.25 03:39:00 - [121] Rockets are fail. This thread is win.
Misery Signals	Posted - 2009.08.25 03:51:00 - [122] Never 100% damage.. do your autocannons always hit for full damage with a webbed and scrammed target? No? "Rebalancing" to you seems to be more about "overbalancing" ;)
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2009.08.25 07:23:00 - [123] Originally by: Misery Signals Never 100% damage.. do your autocannons always hit for full damage with a webbed and scrammed target? No? "Rebalancing" to you seems to be more about "overbalancing" ;) Did you ever try malediction/vengeance/heretic in PvP? According to public killboards - no.
theZJ Caldari Suicidal Trainingscamp	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:41:00 - [124] So apo 1.5 is out, and what did Missile user get? Yeah, I thought so.
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.08.27 16:03:00 - [125] Originally by: Misery Signals do your autocannons always hit for full damage with a webbed and scrammed target? I agree that there is a non-dps advantage to missiles to take into proper account. On the other hand, we're talking rockets here, and the issue of missile agility, while almost irrelevant on all other missiles, is very noticeable on rockets when the two ships change their stance from halted to ABing. Therefore, there is a human skill factor to take into account with rockets, imho as much as with tracking weapons. Add in the favour that ABs are currently enjoying and you get the complete picture.
eKuivocal Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.08.28 21:12:00 - [126] Replying because I want rockets to be a viable option!
Andreya Direct Intent	Posted - 2009.09.03 02:16:00 - [127] Originally by: Mohenna Please, NO missiles whinage here. Rockets have been subject of a clearly wrong rebalancing. To see it, check out the explosion speeds of heavies/torpedoes: the are higher than the guided versions'. This makes sense, balancing factors are speed and explosion radius. Rockets otoh have explosion speed=missiles+10%-100. This gives them explosion speed slower than the heavy missiles, lol frigate weapon?! They need double webs on cruisers to get near full damage... I think it's clear that some dev dropped a 1 in front of the value when doing some late night updating, and as they're not widely used weapons, this falled down in the middle of the general missile nerf whinage. Please correct! Thanks! i udnno if your numbers are right, but i have mentioned this twice over the last two years, the rockets sig rad, or velocity was not in sync with the rest of the rocket/ham/torp type stats, also the t2 versions were off as well _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
Kiev Duran Caldari Net 7 The Last Brigade	Posted - 2009.09.03 18:23:00 - [128] The uselessness of rockets is something I (as a Caldari player that loves the concept of missiles, and enjoys small scale combat) have been following for quite a while now. What I do not understand is why rockets, obviously supposed to be the close-range, high damage counterpart to standard missiles, have been so neglected. After recently running some numbers in EFT, I found that not only do standards have better range and explosion velocities, but they are only out DPSed by rockets by a very small amount. On a ship that gets a bonus to both rockets and standards (most frigates in the Caldari line) if you can get around 100 DPS from rockets, you can expect to get about 80 DPS from standards, and from a range of almost five to six times as far. When you take into consideration that a rocket launcher fires a missile about once each one to two seconds (with decent skills), and that rocket launchers only hold about 30 charges, you realize that every 10 to 20 seconds of each 80 second period is spent reloading. This means that 1/8 to 1/4 of the time the modules are on they are not firing, and thus DPS is effectively reduced by this much (EFT does not take this calculation into it's DPS computation, either). So when EFT gives us a reading of 100 DPS, it is in actuality between 75 and 87.5 DPS before explosion velocity. Doing the same calculation with standards, we see that because the standard launcher holds about 50 missiles, and fires one about every seven seconds (again with decent skills), we see that only about 10 seconds of each 360 (that's six minutes) are spent not firing. Thus only 1/36 of the standard DPS needs to be reduced to get an estimation to compare to our closer to accurate rocket DPS. Doing the calculation, we see that standards are doing about 77.8 DPS, which falls in the range of rocket DPS. Once you factor in explosion velocity, there is little doubt in my mind that standards will do more DPS than rockets do, 90% of the time. TL;DR: Rockets need something because standards can do more DPS than they can at a 50 km range. Originally by: Adaera Caldari special ops "If a problem can't be solved with missiles - you're just not using enough!"
theZJ Caldari Project Stealth Squad Event Horizon.	Posted - 2009.09.03 18:56:00 - [129] Sometime I wonder why CCP spend so much time on, you know, stuff like T3 cruisers, and seem to fail to recognize flaws that are so deep and blatanly obvious - and do not even bother to just give us feedback. The latter is what REALLY makes me angry and wonder why I pay my money for sovupdates and T3 stuff I am not going to use anyway
Zoraya Rouge	Posted - 2009.09.18 15:16:00 - [130] Any chance you guys have a look at rockets and get them right with Dominion? It's totally flawed, if a Vengeance or Malediction deals more damage with autocannons then with rockets.

Mohenna	Posted - 2009.09.18 22:05:00 - [131] There's hope... from the Dominion - Assault Frigate Boost Feedback thread: Originally by: CCP Chronotis This is not a final solution and we are aware of related issues such as rocket performance but we have been impressed with the results so far internally that we want to move to the next phase and see what you all think.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.10.08 21:45:00 - [132] I think almost everything got changed/fixed already from the list players were creating a while ago. yet rockets which were quite high on it are still CRAP.
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.10.08 23:15:00 - [133] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/10/2009 23:15:17 Roflkets indeed. (a) Need more damage - something like 25% more damage. If this overboosts the Kestrel, then nerf the Kestrel. I'd rather have 5 viable T2 ships then a Kestrel which is sortof passable but actually meh. There should be some advantage to, eg. fitting bonused weapons on your ship. Except wasting fitting. Oh, wait, that's not a advantage. (b) Need more explosion velocity and less explosion signature. Damage mitigation is way, way too high, and frigate combat by nature is not a "me and my 11ty billion friends" affair. It should hit a webbed T1 non-speedfit AB frigate for full damage. It did this before the changes, and they were still very horrible. Now they're just incredibly horrible. (c) Needs more clip. Being able to kill a target without reload would be nice, particular given, oh, every other weapon system can do it. That's preety much it. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.10.09 03:36:00 - [134] Bump, cause rockets (and almost all the missile system needs rebalancing)
Farganth	Posted - 2009.10.11 18:04:00 - [135] I'm agree. In my opiniom at this moment rockets are fail. Big fail. Totally useless. Check prices for faction rockets... Its a joke. But the best joke is those t2 rockets: anybody uses it? Fly safe!
Ezien	Posted - 2009.10.14 08:05:00 - [136] Rockets are still fail, so this goes back to the top.
HeliosGal	Posted - 2009.10.14 09:25:00 - [137] its a step in the right direction maybe t3 rockets with bigger bang for the buck
Dienerin Erats Caldari	Posted - 2009.10.16 14:28:00 - [138] friendly bump :)
Ulstan	Posted - 2009.10.16 15:19:00 - [139] The thing about rockets is their EFT dps is often lower than their actual dps because they have to spend so much time reloading, and most ships can kill another ship without needing to reload their weapon systems. Many people seem to uncheck the 'factor in reload time' for the EFT calculation, which gives an inflated idea of the already very poor rocket dps.
Dienerin Erats Caldari	Posted - 2009.10.16 23:52:00 - [140] Quote: and most ships can kill another ship without needing to reload their weapon systems. but not with rocket ships you can load 40 rockets in a TII rocket launcher and they have max skilled 2 sec. rate of fire without rigs and dmgmods... other small weapons 125mm gatling autocanons or light ion blaster II have nearly the same rof but can load more the twice amo... and yes rockets deals realy low dmg on targets they fly faster as 300m/s :( and another point is when you fit a ship with rocket bonus with turrets they made the same or more dmg with turrets in example the vengeance: vengenace with rockets 67 dps (under optimal conditions and no reload) vengenace with dual light pulse laser 70 dps (multifreq) 64 dps (scorch) (average)and have not to reload its similar with 200mm autos and another rocket ships... That's a bit fishy rockets

Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.10.17 13:27:00 - [141] Its been quite a while since I posted on a rocket thread, but the issues have not gone anywhere. Why can't you just fix them, eh? ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told. ◕◡◕
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel.	Posted - 2009.10.20 00:01:00 - [142] Bump. Rockets are a lingering issue that can quite probably be fixed with a tiny bit of attention and testing, probably a few hours worth with yield a satisfactory correction. Please, let me be the khanid pirate I want to be, don't force me to use lasers because rockets are unusable in their current state :( My Pirate Blog
Takal Veron	Posted - 2009.10.20 17:09:00 - [143] DO IT
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.10.21 11:40:00 - [144] So when will i be able to compete against other ships of same class using rockets?
Darcon Kylote Terminal Impact Kairakau	Posted - 2009.10.21 14:38:00 - [145] This is killing me. Every day when I read this forum I look for some blue in this thread. Fix my roflkets..... -- Terminal Impact is recruiting PVPers for fun ops in NPC 0.0 space. Visit our website or join ingame channel "the tict pub".
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.10.21 14:53:00 - [146] Rockets are SO fail that they are riskiuing to underflow the failmeter and get into something uber! I think they should remain BAD agaisnt frigates.. keep standard as anti frig weapons. Give rockets 100% damage bonus to make them GOOD against larger targets.
Bai Xin	Posted - 2009.10.22 10:41:00 - [147] CCP! Please rebalance Khanid ships and the missile system. Thank you!
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.10.22 11:40:00 - [148] Originally by: Seishi Maru I think they should remain BAD agaisnt frigates.. keep standard as anti frig weapons. Give rockets 100% damage bonus to make them GOOD against larger targets. Cool idea imho. Screw explosion speed!
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel.	Posted - 2009.10.23 11:40:00 - [149] Back to the top you go! We need functional rocket spam! (and if you can make it look like macross missile massacre I'll personally fly to Iceland to buy you beer)
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.10.24 12:11:00 - [150] Edited by: Yankunytjatjara on 24/10/2009 12:11:32 Originally by: Helicity Boson macross missile massacre /me drools How about this. OVERbuff missiles, but make them targetable and sorta-destroyable by ACs (like in this awesome vid, 1:25) and gatlings (2:08) on very fast locking ships? One can dream :D

Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel.	Posted - 2009.10.29 05:14:00 - [151] will... not... let...topic...die. must...fix...rockets... will die if this is done
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.10.29 11:37:00 - [152] Oh for god's sake, why is this taking so long? A simple fix to increase explosion velocity would suffice, it doesn't require the complete (overpowering) reworking that ACs are getting, just fix the bloody roflkets so that they don't need an ABing frigate target to be dual-webbed (impossible for a frigate) to deal their full damage, which is crappy anyway. Either that, or tell us that you intend to look thoroughly at rockets, standard missiles and their launchers, and their host ships' fittings, so we could actually get SMLs on a Hawk or the new Hookbill, without requiring multiple fitting mods. Just communicate in some fashion, please.
Raimo Red Federation	Posted - 2009.10.29 17:17:00 - [153] +1 For rocket boost. They need to hit frigates for close to full damage in most situations and could use an overall damage boost. Join RvB!
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.10.29 17:47:00 - [154] Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 29/10/2009 17:47:09 BUMP. Cause rockets need some love.
Amarrian Cynicism Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.10.29 18:38:00 - [155] Fix rockets, please, please, please, please.
Farganth	Posted - 2009.10.29 22:03:00 - [156] How I enter the eve forums? well... i just enter at google: eve rockets and at position 4 this thread appears :). The first one thread that I always look . The others threads are secondary :) Rockets need to be balanced asap imo. Its getting ridiculous. Or is already incredibly amazingly ridiculous? No rocket fix, no happy rocketers :( Fly safe! PD: another thread that I look is the AF thread that was unsticked... lol.. they decided to stop the fixing... arrrgh.. there was some rockets hope there :(
Rip Minner Gallente Freewind Ventures	Posted - 2009.10.30 06:44:00 - [157] rockets need some exp speed loving plz Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.10.30 11:48:00 - [158] Originally by: Farganth How I enter the eve forums? well... i just enter at google: eve rockets and at position 4 this thread appears :). Oh my. 3rd now.
picswapper	Posted - 2009.10.30 14:14:00 - [159] Fix them already D: it's a damned shame a completely broken weapon system like this is allowed to persist for so long when devs are aware of it...
Koolaid Man	Posted - 2009.10.30 18:48:00 - [160] Small increase in DPS, in order to allow rockets to out dps turrets when fitted on bonused ships. That would be nice too. Or just un-fuq the things.

Mohenna	Posted - 2009.10.31 20:58:00 - [161] One thing bugs me; in this thread even, we seem to not be able to agree about whether the roflckets (now official term) should be buffed through drastically better dps (rof or actual damage is for later) drastically better explosion speed a mediocre buff of both Option 1 wouldn't help solo much: the main problem is now explosion speed, which seems to have a '200' cut off by mistake. So a great increase in EFT dps wouldn't increase actual dps much. On the other hand, rocket ships would become great fleet ships, because when you have a target scrammed and webbed you'd omgwtfpwn it. This seems to fit well in the amarr and caldari philosophies. Option 2 would help solo a lot, and perhaps give amarr and caldari some ships that are good at solo finally. The problem with missile agility in rockets would be more felt though, while in option one, once you scram web and orbit it at 500 the friggin thing should finally catch it. Option 1 would be the lazy programmer's choice, option 2 would require a fix of the agility problem. Option 3 I personally don't like but it could be a compromise I guess. Personally I prefer 2, with a fix of agility (starting vector towards target ought to be enough) as I am a lonewolf. But really I'd love any of the three to be applied, finally.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.10.31 22:38:00 - [162] Originally by: Mohenna ... [list=i] drastically better dps (rof or actual damage is for later) drastically better explosion speed ... Drastic buff is more near to the mark tbh. Rockets lack both in damage and explosion velocity and they get shafted by vector problems.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.11.01 11:09:00 - [163] With 'drastic dps' I mean blaster level dps, if you also give it explosion speed you'll be OPing them, what would you prefer of the 2 is the question. It seems option 3 as you want both and you know you won't be getting the first two?
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.11.01 12:58:00 - [164] I can only conclude that a dev suffered severe trauma at the hands of someone using rockets, as they seem absolutely hell bent on making them suck. It's ****ing amazing that they've managed to go this long without a fix.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.01 14:38:00 - [165] Originally by: Mohenna With 'drastic dps' I mean blaster level dps, if you also give it explosion speed you'll be OPing them, what would you prefer of the 2 is the question. It seems option 3 as you want both and you know you won't be getting the first two? I was thinking AC level of damage actually and an explosion velocity that will let the Crow go after Taranises and be on par (if flown by a good pilot). If you go against a Taranis in a crow with roflkets, he will laugh in your face and proceed to shred you.
Ezien	Posted - 2009.11.02 07:17:00 - [166] This thread needs a bump to the very small top. Out of all the great changes coming in Dominion (Projectile weapons even getting a buff/rebalancing), no devs found a little time to bump the rocket explosion velocities up a little? /sadpanda
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.02 10:11:00 - [167] Originally by: Tagami Wasp I was thinking AC level of damage actually and an explosion velocity that will let the Crow go after Taranises and be on par (if flown by a good pilot). If you go against a Taranis in a crow with roflkets, he will laugh in your face and proceed to shred you. I think taranis is wrong comparison. As taranis pilot i can happily engage any other ceptor and laugh in their face while i shred them. But yeah id love to have ship (malediction/heretic) comparable in pewpew ability to others in their class.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.11.02 10:33:00 - [168] Originally by: Tagami Wasp I was thinking AC level of damage actually and an explosion velocity that will let the Crow go after Taranises and be on par (if flown by a good pilot). If you go against a Taranis in a crow with roflkets, he will laugh in your face and proceed to shred you. Then we agree, AC damage and somewhat better explo speed is what I meant with option 3.
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel.	Posted - 2009.11.03 07:42:00 - [169] Giant thread here, giant thread in the assembly hall, a CSM that brought the point forwards, and STILL nothing :( I'd really love a dev comment on rockets about now...
Rage Spear	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:13:00 - [170] How can this not have even had a single dev reply? Makes me very sad to see rockets so pointless... WTB an interested Dev

WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:47:00 - [171] /Signed. Rockets need to be looked at. ----------------------------------------------- Free Trade Corp - Flash page
Andreya Red Federation	Posted - 2009.11.04 22:22:00 - [172] Originally by: Rage Spear How can this not have even had a single dev reply? Makes me very sad to see rockets so pointless... WTB an interested Dev jeesus CCP, get your head outta your bums and communicate with your income source. if there is 140 posts regarding something, at least say 'we are looking into it for next patch' , or 'its on our drawing board' all you guys do by not answering us is allow negativity to fester although we have all seen before when dev posts have caused uproar... its better than letting the lemmings make assumptions and rage over our own guesswork _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
Snivach	Posted - 2009.11.05 00:00:00 - [173] Edited by: Snivach on 05/11/2009 00:01:36 erm maybe I can help? Its a rocket... not a stinger missile... Elaborating: Does a rocket curve when you shoot it? Tbh it seems like its more of a tracking issue than explosion velocity.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.05 00:02:00 - [174] V2 were rockets too, punk. Now, CCP, fix em.
Snivach	Posted - 2009.11.05 00:07:00 - [175] eh well it was worth a try. ~~First post in a feedback thread \o/~~ Originally by: CCP Incognito I always take you guys seriously. When I read form posts that seems intresting, I run a few operations on it first :) I take a form posts and run it through a de-whine filter. Then it is spun to remove the BS. Next it goes in a cold bath to let the angst, rage, and emo cool off. Finally I poke it with a sharp pin to let the egos deflate. What is left is usually an empty message, but sometimes there is a nugget of gold left. I'm sure they have noticed ;)
S'vart Tseirgn Calimae Logistics Foundation Manifest Destiny.	Posted - 2009.11.05 05:47:00 - [176] CCP: Ignoring the bugs since day 1! Just to keep this in a place where it might actually be read! BUMP! /grump
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.05 17:26:00 - [177] Originally by: CCP Chronotis it has been delayed to post-dominion as we were prioritized onto other things and could not complete the full changes including rockets and the like and we did not want to deploy it without the full set of changes. Can we have an ETA for this?
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel.	Posted - 2009.11.06 14:04:00 - [178] not giving up! bump!
Ezien	Posted - 2009.11.07 22:15:00 - [179] Originally by: Tagami Wasp Originally by: CCP Chronotis it has been delayed to post-dominion as we were prioritized onto other things and could not complete the full changes including rockets and the like and we did not want to deploy it without the full set of changes. Can we have an ETA for this? It's good that the devs know about it. However, obviously they think other parts of the game take priority over rocket balances. /bump to convince them otherwise
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.11.07 22:29:00 - [180] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 07/11/2009 22:29:16 Originally by: Ezien However, obviously they think everything takes priority over rocket balances. /bump to convince them otherwise fixed.

Dengen Krastinov Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.10 12:06:00 - [181] Rockets are a sad sad story. I'm tired friends.... I'm tired...
Ebrey mark2	Posted - 2009.11.10 12:38:00 - [182] Yeah! Fix the rockets! Vengeance could be the coolest frigate in the game if rockets worked well!

CCP WeirdFish	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:45:00 - [183] Rockets and there balance is being looked into at the moment have no fear ! :)

Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.10 15:47:00 - [184] YAY!!! At last!! Are they going to be in Dominion? It's not that huge of a fix (3 numbers in DB can be changed within a DT if you need to tweak even a bit). Remember, it is buff they need.

CCP WeirdFish	Posted - 2009.11.10 16:02:00 - [185] Probably not in time for dominion but we are working on it.

Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.11.10 18:06:00 - [186] Although rockets could be fixed just by changing a could of DB numbers, the fix for AFs will take a lot more work, as seen by the failure of the AB speed boost. And since any change to AF speed will directly affect rocket balance, it makes sense to do both changes at the same time.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:12:00 - [187] Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Probably not in time for dominion but we are working on it. Because changing two numbers by fairly obvious amounts takes months of meditation and spiritual cleansing.
Vincent Gaines Dirt Nap Squad	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:33:00 - [188] Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Probably not in time for dominion but we are working on it. you're joking right? to change radius and velocity numbers to what the playerbase has already calculated? THIS is too much to do in a month's time, to make at least 2 ships (vengence and crow) actually playable again?
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.11.11 20:41:00 - [189] Back to page 1.

CCP WeirdFish	Posted - 2009.11.12 15:11:00 - [190] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Probably not in time for dominion but we are working on it. Because changing two numbers by fairly obvious amounts takes months of meditation and spiritual cleansing. Not at all but getting someone to sit down and change them means stopping them working on what they are doing. Its not a case of the task requiring 5 hail Mary's its just that we are all extremely busy.


An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.12 15:36:00 - [191] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 12/11/2009 15:40:59 Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Probably not in time for dominion but we are working on it. Because changing two numbers by fairly obvious amounts takes months of meditation and spiritual cleansing. Not at all but getting someone to sit down and change them means stopping them working on what they are doing. Its not a case of the task requiring 5 hail Mary's its just that we are all extremely busy. Every post on this forum: Why aren't you fixing ___ random feature that I want fixed? Why did you touch that instead of doing ___ other random feature I want fixed? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.11.13 11:36:00 - [192] Edited by: Mohenna on 13/11/2009 11:36:57 A dev answer! \o/ Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Rockets and there balance is being looked into at the moment have no fear ! :) Could you elaborate a bit more on the direction of the fix? Is the explosion speed simply lacking 200 (somebody not typing it in) as it looks like comparing the different missiles?

CCP WeirdFish	Posted - 2009.11.13 11:53:00 - [193] Originally by: Mohenna Could you elaborate a bit more on the direction of the fix? Is the explosion speed simply lacking 200 (somebody not typing it in) as it looks like comparing the different missiles? I'm afraid i cant, you would need to talk to a game designer about the specifics of the change. Just telling you what i know :)

Mohenna	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:12:00 - [194] Originally by: CCP WeirdFish I'm afraid i cant, you would need to talk to a game designer about the specifics of the change. Just telling you what i know :) Yes I'll phone one - could you give me his number? Seriously, in this thread there have been some well thought out observations, if you could point the relevant person here it would be great. Thanks!
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.13 16:36:00 - [195] Yeah, CCP Weirdfish, just have someone from DB management spend 2 hours reading this thread and changing the numbers in the Master table. If it is a matter of overtime, tell us so, we'll do a collection and pay the poor bustard.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.11.13 17:31:00 - [196] Other player figures vary of course but here are the ones I came up with and the reasoning: Explosion velocity: 151 (226 at TNP V) - the HAM => Torpedo gap is an increment of 30, 50 in this case to accomodate for the fact it's a frigate weapon, and as such deals almost exclusively with ships designed specifically for speed. Damage: 25-30% boost. The Kestrel puts out reasonable dps with a 50% boost, so this would bring up the other exclusive rocket using ships (Hawk, Retri, etc.) to more or less acceptable levels, and the Kestrel to being sort of on par with the Incursus as a glass cannon ship. (Plus the Crow possibly being able to compete with other interceptors.) The resulting damage figures may appear below average on paper but consistancy of their hits will even it out in practice.
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.11.14 11:36:00 - [197] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington The resulting damage figures may appear below average on paper but consistancy of their hits will even it out in practice. In theory. The fast orbiting ships problem persists...
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.14 12:23:00 - [198] Originally by: Yankunytjatjara Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington The resulting damage figures may appear below average on paper but consistancy of their hits will even it out in practice. In theory. The fast orbiting ships problem persists... With 226 explo velocity and web+scram on frigate only AB ceptors would be a big problem (and boosted AB AFs). If s1 has missile explo velocity/radius vs target velocity/radius spreadsheets can he run some numbers? Im just interested in % dps reduction against MWD ceptor, webbed MWD ceptor, AB ceptor, webbed AB ceptor and base speed (both webbed and not).
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.11.14 13:01:00 - [199] Originally by: Deva Blackfire (and boosted AB AFs). This buff is no longer happening. Thank God.
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.14 13:11:00 - [200] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: Deva Blackfire (and boosted AB AFs). This buff is no longer happening. Thank God. It was postponed, so not happening now. It "might" happen later (or not at all). So just covering all bases :)

Sathiran Endis	Posted - 2009.11.16 19:16:00 - [201] So I tried out the roflkets and yes, the explosion velocity really is an issue as OP and many of you claim. +1 for rocket fix
Rook Mallard Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:55:00 - [202] Rockets suck and need fixing! (which will incidentally fix a couple of ship classes that rely on them). Please, please, please look into them!
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.11.20 12:09:00 - [203] This thread is both the third and fifth result googling for eve rockets, on these forums and on eve search. The rockets wiki entry is at the 8th place...
HeliosGal Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.20 12:25:00 - [204] obviously something that needs attention Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00
Killmeded	Posted - 2009.11.20 21:03:00 - [205] Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Rockets and there balance is being looked into at the moment have no fear ! :) Im new and like using missiles -- I want to get a vengance but everyone says rockets are HORRIBLE -- So thank you for looking into this issue ---
Farganth	Posted - 2009.12.01 15:04:00 - [206] What is doing here post? +not in first page?! PULL!!
Ancy Denaries Forever Unbound	Posted - 2009.12.02 10:28:00 - [207] Originally by: Rook Mallard Rockets suck and need fixing! (which will incidentally fix a couple of ship classes that rely on them). Please, please, please look into them! Some reading in this thread would've helped you. Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Rockets and there balance is being looked into at the moment have no fear ! :) :D ---- The Demigodess with a Conscience - An EVE IC Blog Personal Killboard
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.12.06 14:03:00 - [208] Won't let this die. FIX ROCKETS! My Crow cries.
Yhael Xeal	Posted - 2009.12.07 13:18:00 - [209] so....devs still working on dominion? rockets meanwhile, still broken....
Patri Andari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer	Posted - 2009.12.08 04:10:00 - [210] Originally by: Yhael Xeal so....devs still working on dominion? rockets meanwhile, still broken.... Meanwhile....Hey, we have voice fonts! Patri I'll Roshambo you for that Titan?

ScottChaos Caldari Urkrathos Corp LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM	Posted - 2009.12.08 06:04:00 - [211] Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Probably not in time for dominion but we are working on it. Because changing two numbers by fairly obvious amounts takes months of meditation and spiritual cleansing. Not at all but getting someone to sit down and change them means stopping them working on what they are doing. Its not a case of the task requiring 5 hail Mary's its just that we are all extremely busy. I'd suggest sit the designer down and ask him to spend 30 seconds of his precious time to type 5 digits on a keyboard, hit enter (Yes I know it takes more work than this but the point does stand), and go back to his EVER so important task that will be delayed *30 entire seconds. Like that's really going to cause a problem. I'm not trying to bash anyone at all, but the fact does remain: It's not that you don't have time, it's that you won't make* time. And we even did 95% of the math. This is like knowing deep down that a marriage is failing yet you won't fix the problem, you let it "slide" for another 10 years first.
Yhael Xeal	Posted - 2009.12.08 10:47:00 - [212] Originally by: Patri Andari Originally by: Yhael Xeal so....devs still working on dominion? rockets meanwhile, still broken.... Meanwhile....Hey, we have voice fonts! HOORAY for the voice fonts that were implimented with dominion.... oh wait...that didn't happen.
Number 17 Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2009.12.08 12:29:00 - [213] CCP, i know its hard to rebalance some weapon. little idea, raise the T2 launcher load from 40 to 80. Im a rocket lover, and in a malediction i have to reload at least once to kill a taranis (its very annoying due mainly to the ammount of pain a taranis or claw can deal in that time) In a hawk i have to reload up to 2 times to kill another AF. Ridiculous, is there any other T2 weapon system in which you have to reload in the middle of pvp? You can check i actually fly these ships in live conditions against real ppl with real fittings. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=4930713 PLEASE RAISE CAPACITY FOR T2 LAUNCHERS FROM 40 to 80 After that you can look at explo velocity, but i think if you raise capacity neither blaster nor autocannon users would whine.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.12.09 11:07:00 - [214] I still think rockets should bypass shield and armor and do hull damage from the get go.
Anah Karah	Posted - 2009.12.09 11:43:00 - [215] Originally by: Marlona Sky I still think rockets should bypass shield and armor and do hull damage from the get go. YES. how about they make them area of effect too :) They should also be able to use FOF's, and defender missiles should work on bombs, so they become the second most useless weapon in existance (behind rockets of course) Actually, defenders working on bombs ain't as bad as it first sounded, and the fact that rocket launchers can use defenders might, JUST push their usefullness factor that next step up, past the retribution leaving it on the bottom of the scale of the most useless things in existance... because it literally... has no point.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.12.13 13:44:00 - [216] Typing in those numbers is still that hard, eh?
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2009.12.18 15:53:00 - [217] Just. Fix. Them. christ....
Damion Crow Caldari	Posted - 2009.12.27 23:34:00 - [218] Just out of curiosity, which of the rigs in the current state of things would best help exemplify rocket performance? Hopefully a fix is in the near future, but we can still try to make due in the meantime, no?
Ebrey mark2	Posted - 2009.12.28 10:21:00 - [219] Originally by: Damion Crow Just out of curiosity, which of the rigs in the current state of things would best help exemplify rocket performance? Hopefully a fix is in the near future, but we can still try to make due in the meantime, no? I guess two Flare Catalyst's would improve them... But to be honest, they need to be improved. It's sad that ppl fit AC's on the Vengeance and benefit from it. Best regards, Ebrey The Tuskers
Damion Crow Caldari	Posted - 2009.12.30 00:48:00 - [220] Hmm. Makes sense. thank you.

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.12.30 12:17:00 - [221] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 30/12/2009 12:22:48 Do flares boost it to even reasonable levels? Edit: hmm, 193 with 3 of them. Ugh. _________________________________
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2009.12.31 00:32:00 - [222] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 30/12/2009 12:22:48 Do flares boost it to even reasonable levels? Edit: hmm, 193 with 3 of them. Ugh. That's effectively 386m/s for a 40m sig radius. That's actually quite decent. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2009.12.31 00:43:00 - [223] Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 30/12/2009 12:22:48 Do flares boost it to even reasonable levels? Edit: hmm, 193 with 3 of them. Ugh. That's effectively 386m/s for a 40m sig radius. That's actually quite decent. Yeah. All those kestrel pilots just rejoiced. On the other hand malediction, vengeance, heretic and hawk pilots are still stuck with 2 flares max. And with pathetic DPS to add to the insult :) Yes 3x flares would work decently IF it wasnt for other rocket issues (namely low range due to following target and pathetic DPS). And ofc when you put 2x flare (t2 hull) to actually do some decent damage other guy just spams damage rigs and gets handy 20% on top of his current DPS. Which again leaves you behind :X
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2009.12.31 02:30:00 - [224] Flare rigs rarely add more effective DPS than damage rigs at any rate, when they do it's usually not a lot.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.12.31 22:30:00 - [225] So it's back to FIX THE DMANED ROCKETS issue? ----------------------------------------------- This is a line of text without any meaning. -----------------------------------------------
Lady Australia	Posted - 2010.01.01 11:23:00 - [226] i have faith that with abathur active again we will see some of the much needed changes happening sooner rather than later. at the very very least he is actively participating in the forum threads, CCP seemed to lose the bookmark to the eve forums for a long time!!!
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.01 12:33:00 - [227] Originally by: Lady Australia i have faith that with abathur active again we will see some of the much needed changes happening sooner rather than later. at the very very least he is actively participating in the forum threads, CCP seemed to lose the bookmark to the eve forums for a long time!!! I would stop being stupid and sucking up to one dev if i were you tbfh. FYI: one person doesnt make all the developement decisions. There is always one dev who communicates with players be it seleene, tuxford or others before him.
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2010.01.01 22:24:00 - [228] Originally by: Deva Blackfire FYI: one person doesnt make all the developement decisions. He does if that person happens to be CCP Nozh. Sucking up to CCP Abathur shows that we are not willing to suck up to CCP Nozh, who also happens to be the one person who doesn't deserve it. Hey, look on the bright side. Abathur has been freed! ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.01 22:55:00 - [229] Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Deva Blackfire FYI: one person doesnt make all the developement decisions. He does if that person happens to be CCP Nozh. Nope it does not. Unless you believe in world conspiracy theory, aliens controlling governments or other ****e. If yes, then be my guest tho usually that kind of people land in special places reserved for them.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2010.01.01 23:13:00 - [230] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Yeah. All those kestrel pilots just rejoiced. On the other hand malediction, vengeance, heretic and hawk pilots are still stuck with 2 flares max. And with pathetic DPS to add to the insult :) Yes 3x flares would work decently IF it wasnt for other rocket issues (namely low range due to following target and pathetic DPS). And ofc when you put 2x flare (t2 hull) to actually do some decent damage other guy just spams damage rigs and gets handy 20% on top of his current DPS. Which again leaves you behind :X In fact I think rockets shoudl keep their very bad explosion velocity.. but before someone curses me. I think their DPS shoudl be DOUBLED at least! Make them superior weapons against larger ships. So frigates dedicated to rockets can try outtrack larger ships at point blank poundign with good firepower. ITs more interestign than just another type of missile to hit a ship same size ...

Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2010.01.01 23:29:00 - [231] Originally by: Seishi Maru In fact I think rockets shoudl keep their very bad explosion velocity.. but before someone curses me. I think their DPS shoudl be DOUBLED at least! Make them superior weapons against larger ships. So frigates dedicated to rockets can try outtrack larger ships at point blank poundign with good firepower. ITs more interestign than just another type of missile to hit a ship same size ... So you want rockets to have the same DPS output as HAMs, while having greatly superior tracking abilities? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Just so you know, the appropriate damage increase for rockets, lights, and cruises (for a different reason) is +50%. Short range missiles could use an explosion velocity increase of 25%, but anything more would be too much without missile mechanics being completely rewritten (which needs to be done anyway). ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2010.01.01 23:44:00 - [232] Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Seishi Maru In fact I think rockets shoudl keep their very bad explosion velocity.. but before someone curses me. I think their DPS shoudl be DOUBLED at least! Make them superior weapons against larger ships. So frigates dedicated to rockets can try outtrack larger ships at point blank poundign with good firepower. ITs more interestign than just another type of missile to hit a ship same size ... So you want rockets to have the same DPS output as HAMs, while having greatly superior tracking abilities? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Just so you know, the appropriate damage increase for rockets, lights, and cruises (for a different reason) is +50%. Short range missiles could use an explosion velocity increase of 25%, but anything more would be too much without missile mechanics being completely rewritten (which needs to be done anyway). but shorter range and all ships that use them have less laucnehrs than the HAM based ones. I want rockets to SUCK against frigates but to be exelent against larger ships.. at point blank range.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.01.02 02:13:00 - [233] Originally by: Seishi Maru but shorter range and all ships that use them have less laucnehrs than the HAM based ones. I want rockets to SUCK against frigates but to be exelent against larger ships.. at point blank range. Please never even joke about this garbage, Nozh might see it and actually put it into action. _________________________________
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.01.03 16:48:00 - [234] Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 03/01/2010 16:48:32 Originally by: Seishi Maru I want rockets to SUCK against frigates but to be exelent against larger ships.. at point blank range. Well, if you are into S&M, plz keep it to yourself. If you want to punish yourself so badly, fit Smartbombs and try to kill stuff in Jita with them, CONCORD will love you, every time. I'd like rockets to be fixed and missiles in general to be re-engineered. [sarcasm] Too bad that would take a whole afternoon and there is no feedback from the players at all to use. [/sarcasm] edit: spelling ----------------------------------------------- This is a line of text without any meaning. -----------------------------------------------
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.01.04 17:20:00 - [235] Fix. ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told. ◕◡◕
Horse Glue	Posted - 2010.01.05 03:40:00 - [236] Originally by: Number 17 CCP, i know its hard to rebalance some weapon. little idea, raise the T2 launcher load from 40 to 80. Im a rocket lover, and in a malediction i have to reload at least once to kill a taranis (its very annoying due mainly to the ammount of pain a taranis or claw can deal in that time) In a hawk i have to reload up to 2 times to kill another AF. Ridiculous, is there any other T2 weapon system in which you have to reload in the middle of pvp? You can check i actually fly these ships in live conditions against real ppl with real fittings. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=4930713 PLEASE RAISE CAPACITY FOR T2 LAUNCHERS FROM 40 to 80 After that you can look at explo velocity, but i think if you raise capacity neither blaster nor autocannon users would whine. 40 to 80, huh, dont u mean 40 to 200, 80 is still to low? and in other news, just fix rox so they hit frigs as intended.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2010.01.05 08:35:00 - [237] Edited by: fuxinos on 05/01/2010 08:34:46 Its not just their explo velo, they need a huge dps boost aswell. Blaster Taranis doing 250+dps while a Crow, with a 10%!!! kinetic damage bonus barley scratches the 100dps mark. Pathetic...
ScottChaos Caldari Serenus Legion LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM	Posted - 2010.01.06 11:46:00 - [238] Originally by: Ezien Originally by: Tagami Wasp Originally by: CCP Chronotis it has been delayed to post-dominion as we were prioritized onto other things and could not complete the full changes including rockets and the like and we did not want to deploy it without the full set of changes. Can we have an ETA for this? It's good that the devs know about it. However, obviously they think other parts of the game take priority over rocket balances. /bump to convince them otherwise Sure, they are working on major changes that may make us wet our pants. But the fact does remain that when hundreds of people will assemble, from pointless posts to fully meaningful scientific ones, to let CCP know how the FEEL on something, it's nice to shift your priorities to something that people are telling you hurts them; Without being discriminatory of whether the sadness is serious or lul'd. The fact remains in black and white. Part of the entire community is in misery. and large companies are usually very inflexible. Though a company like CCP has lots of power and thus can change course on a dime if desired, usually turning a 180 to work on something else ruins everything else they're working on and is especially the case whne the company is large. My overall conclusion on the rockets thing altogether: Best to trust CCP here until they are ready to release an update, Imo. Yeah, you heard me. I'd rather be wise and patient and not get impatient with CCP. They know we shed tears on rockets. They'll get to it when they can make time without a consequence they can't afford. :)
Darcon Kylote Terminal Impact	Posted - 2010.01.08 15:53:00 - [239] There is just SO MUCH bang for the buck available here if they would fix this. A tiny change would mean that a number of ships that are currently subpar or useless might be viable again, giving lots more diversity and potential for fun with frigates. And this gets neglected over a tweak to the Vindicator? While welcome, that change will benefit comparatively few players. Good grief... -- Terminal Impact is recruiting PVPers for fun ops in lowsec/0.0/wormhole space. Visit our website or join ingame channel "the tict pub".
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.08 21:48:00 - [240] So... SiSiPi. You boosted Titans (300ish in EVE), Motherships (2000?), Vindicator (1000?). And Rockets which can be used by tens thousand ships (maleds, vengs, heretics, hawks, crows and supplementary weapon systems on many other frig sized hulls) are still crap. Maybe we should start dropping random propositions like "boost rocked damage by 200% and their range to 40km" in hopes we get at least 1/4 of it? Seriously fix them. Rockets have been broken much longer than all those ships above and need WAY more help yet they are being ignored.

Natasha Nikolaev	Posted - 2010.01.08 22:03:00 - [241] Edited by: Natasha Nikolaev on 08/01/2010 22:11:38 Originally by: Deva Blackfire And Rockets which can be used by tens thousand ships (maleds, vengs, heretics, hawks, crows and supplementary weapon systems on many other frig sized hulls) are still crap. This is exactly why it hasn't happened yet. bosting the vindi will have just about zero impact on the game as a whole and only the balance of one ship required looking into, while boosting rockets will have a major impact on an entire ship size class and require looking at every single ship that uses them. And titan/mom numbers in game may be relatively low, but their impact (well impact is still only "potential" for mom/sc) on 0.0 warfare is huge.
ScottChaos Caldari Serenus Legion LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM	Posted - 2010.01.08 22:40:00 - [242] The situation as many of the players see it: While the rest of the fanbase is still sitting in the lobby and their number hasn't been picked yet, while others who come in afterward get their numbers picked first. I agree it's easier to focus on balancing one ship against the others of its class. Yes, update it first, why not? It's very true it would take an enormous amount of effort to do rocket fixes, as you're comparing MORE than one ship against a large part of the ship library pretty much (frig to BS size commonly, rather). How getting things done works: With dedication and faith, no effort is "not as important" as another. With faith and the will to act on it, rockets can be fixed. It takes faith and dedication to fix anything. Vindicator, Typhoon, or otherwise. It requires believing something is worth changing, and then acting on that belief and changing it. Knowing this, CCP may A) not believe in a need for rocket change, even 250 posts later, or B) DOES care but has run out of time to make time for anything and their schedule may be full right now. Or even C) They have taken more consideration into rockets than most players even realize and they don't have the time to tell everyone the 50 things they consider every day at the office. Maybe the work is non-stop except for lunch. Unless they told us their current "busy-ness" level we shouldn't assume how free or busy they are, and should just keep the faith for them until they get around to it. Go CCP! ^_^ Yes fix rockets, but please don't fix them until you have time to spare for them. I'd rather a longer wait with a proper fix, than a half-done fix now because some fans are impatient :/
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.08 22:57:00 - [243] If you bothered as much to check the topic for blue bar posts as you did to make your uninventive post you would know that CCP already acknowledged the issue. And yeah bumping the thread and reminding them about the issue is the fastest way to get stuff done as been proven by multiple whine-threads made in the past (minmatar threads, projectile ones, missiles, carriers, motherships, titans, falcon - you name it). Quote: This is exactly why it hasn't happened yet. bosting the vindi will have just about zero impact on the game as a whole and only the balance of one ship required looking into, while boosting rockets will have a major impact on an entire ship size class and require looking at every single ship that uses them. And titan/mom numbers in game may be relatively low, but their impact (well impact is still only "potential" for mom/sc) on 0.0 warfare is huge. Way to contradict yourself. Vindi was fixed because it has low impact on game, rockets have huge impact. Titans were fixed because they had huge impact on game, rockets werent fixed because...they have huge impact? Uh? Also fixing vindi took pretty much the same amount of time it would take to at least patch rockets to "not-crippled" level. Just changing few numbers in game (in case of vindi its ship bonus from 5 to 7,5, in case of rockets its just tad higher explosion velocity).
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.01.09 00:17:00 - [244] I believe in ccp's ability to find elegant solutions (my favorite example is QR nano-fix). Hope they won't just tune some numbers but make rockets unique in some way.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.01.09 00:43:00 - [245] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Also fixing vindi took pretty much the same amount of time it would take to at least patch rockets to "not-crippled" level. Just changing few numbers in game (in case of vindi its ship bonus from 5 to 7,5, in case of rockets its just tad higher explosion velocity). This, x1000. _________________________________
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.01.09 00:46:00 - [246] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington This, x1000. No, this is just wrong. They have whole complex of a problems, not just this one, and hopefully ccp guys prepare af/rocket changes which will really eliminate all of them. Tuning only explosion speed is just stupid.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.01.09 05:33:00 - [247] Up to 9 pages, Guess we need to take to the 100s to see some love? ----------------------------------------------- This is a line of text without any meaning. -----------------------------------------------
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.09 05:34:00 - [248] Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 09/01/2010 00:53:08 Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington This, x1000. They have whole complex of a problems, not just this one, and hopefully ccp guys prepare af/rocket changes which will really eliminate all of them. Tuning only explosion speed is just stupid. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1005679&page=2#49 You mean like the problem i described around year ago in this thread? Or maybe same problem i described in bug reports? Or other rocket thread(s) that spawned over a year ago? Yeh i prolly know most/all of those (malediction and heretic PVP pilot here + veng for PVE lulz). Actually when i get some time i might sum them up again.
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2010.01.09 06:47:00 - [249] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 09/01/2010 00:53:08 Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington This, x1000. They have whole complex of a problems, not just this one, and hopefully ccp guys prepare af/rocket changes which will really eliminate all of them. Tuning only explosion speed is just stupid. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1005679&page=2#49 You mean like the problem i described around year ago in this thread? Or maybe same problem i described in bug reports? Or other rocket thread(s) that spawned over a year ago? Yeh i prolly know most/all of those (malediction and heretic PVP pilot here + veng for PVE lulz). Actually when i get some time i might sum them up again. There's WAY more to it than that. And it isn't just rockets, it's everything except HAMs (and even then, there are some issues HAMs have). The damage reduction formula, the missile flight and tracking method, and several support skills are flawed. There is no common progression for light -> heavy -> cruise, nor is there one for rocket -> HAM -> torpedo. The Kessie has an extra missile bank, and the Raven is missing one. Precision missiles fail at their job. Smarties killing missiles and defenders even being allowed to exist (whether they work or not) are both serious issues. And to top it all off, the whole of the community is too blind and arrogant to acknowledge that these fundamental problems exist, and they'll just mock you when you bring them to light. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.09 07:36:00 - [250] Edited by: Faffywaffy on 09/01/2010 07:39:28 Rockets are fine as-is. Yes, to deal full damage to a ceptor with rockets, you need to have it scrambled and webbed, but not having to worry about tracking easily compensates for that. On cruisers, rockets always deal full damage. They are easier to fit than missiles and do more damage. No rocket-bonused ship is better with a different weapon. Rocket crow is by far better than a missile crow. I've taken out multiple ceptors (as in a 1 vs. many fight) in my rocket crow. Rocket malediction is pure win. Beats crusaders handily. Loses only to a dual-prop taranis. Rocket vengeance is pure win. No other AF can beat it 1v1. All of the above ships easily dispatch a flight of light drones before dying. Hell, I can take (and have taken) a rapier in my rocket crow 1v1. So where are they broken? My flight record P.S. Javelins are broken, on the other hand. Having each rocket launcher loaded with Javelins reduce your speed is a too harsh penalty and makes them useless on the ship class intended to use them.

Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.01.09 12:11:00 - [251] Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 09/01/2010 12:16:20 Originally by: Deva Blackfire You mean like the problem i described around year ago in this thread? Yes, it's what i tried to describe. Originally by: Faffywaffy Rockets are fine as-is. Yes, to deal full damage to a ceptor with rockets, you need to have it scrambled and webbed, but not having to worry about tracking easily compensates for that. On cruisers, rockets always deal full damage. They are easier to fit than missiles and do more damage. No rocket-bonused ship is better with a different weapon. It's not possible to scram light drone (due to fact that you have to scram its carrier + drone's mwd stays enabled even if you scram it). So rocket's inability to kill light drones is by design? Originally by: Faffywaffy Rocket crow is by far better than a missile crow. I've taken out multiple ceptors (as in a 1 vs. many fight) in my rocket crow. This says more about skills/fittings of the pilots which were opposing you. Even 1 good ceptor can be a pain for a rocket crow, 2 good ceptors = almost insta-death w/o any survival chances. Originally by: Faffywaffy Rocket malediction is pure win. Beats crusaders handily. Loses only to a dual-prop taranis. Also not true. Dual-prop blasteranis has pretty bad chances vs rocket malediction; railranis has much better chances to get rid of it (still, not kill - malediction has superior speed). Originally by: Faffywaffy Rocket vengeance is pure win. No other AF can beat it 1v1. If it's an AB * inside plex it can be killed with a beamsader. If it's mwd venge outside plex it could be killed even easier. Originally by:** Faffywaffy All of the above ships easily dispatch a flight of light drones before dying. Hell, I can take (and have taken) a rapier in my rocket crow 1v1. In a sader (both beam and pulse), you can kill 3-4 packs of t2 warriors if your mwd keeps running. Originally by: Faffywaffy So where are they broken? Inability to hit fast targets in range. Originally by: Faffywaffy P.S. Javelins are broken, on the other hand. Having each rocket launcher loaded with Javelins reduce your speed is a too harsh penalty and makes them useless on the ship class intended to use them. That's not just javelins, that's any t2 ammo with 'global' penalty (like void eats your cap, javelins/rages penalize your speed/signature). But true, reducing speed by 20% is really harsh penalty for a ships which rely almost completely on it. While you can use faction rockets on a crow to kill anybody from 15 km rage - i'm forced to use javelins on malediction even with all their penalties (after i'm out of enemy's attack/scram/web range). And i dislike such huge speed penalty too.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.01.09 12:19:00 - [252] Yeah nice fit you've got there. Pity it costs more than a fully fitted battlecruiser. Let's get one thing clear here - you have an impressive killboard; and you have that in spite of rockets, not because of them. You found a quirky, overpriced fit and had some success through sheer ISK investment, skill and "WTF" factor. I'm pretty sure there are people around who can get results out of a Hawk; that doesn't make it any less a waste of hanger space. Quote: rockets always deal lol damage Fixed. Vs a cruiser the disparity with other weapons becomes even more pronounced; as their tracking issues become completely voided as well - and as I'm sure you're aware, an unbonused autocannon can outdps a bonused rocket launcher. You may be doing your full 100dps but a Taranis is doing its full 250. (And they generally don't need to use an extra 20mil in meta4 modules just to fit their ship, as far as I know) Originally by: Faffywaffy So where are they broken? See my sig. Yeah, right there. You are a tiny minority - the rest are doing vastly better just using other weapons and ships. I think that, the length of this thread, and the downright comedy stats on them (how exactly does lower explosion velocity than a HAM make any sense to you?) make it a fairly sure bet they could use some love. Not a boost to the point of pre-nerf Falcons, but at least to make them competitive rather than the sad, nichT state they're in now. You say rockets are great. The fact that there aren't hugely more of you around sort of puts doubt on that. Quote: P.S. Javelins are broken, on the other hand. Having each rocket launcher loaded with Javelins reduce your speed is a too harsh penalty and makes them useless on the ship class intended to use them. Yeah agreed. Turns them into gimpy standard missiles. _________________________________
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2010.01.09 13:59:00 - [253] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: Faffywaffy So where are they broken? See my sig. That is not the key reason why they are broken. The real explosion velocity for rockets is 170m/s if you use 40/125/400 standards. Torps are 63m/s. The real reason why they are broken is mostly because of pitiful raw DPS. Lights and rockets both need a 33% DPS boost, or a 50% DPS boost with a reduction in their absurdly long range. Of course a missile velocity that doesn't suck would be helpful too. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.09 15:39:00 - [254] Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Originally by: Faffywaffy Rockets are fine as-is. Yes, to deal full damage to a ceptor with rockets, you need to have it scrambled and webbed, but not having to worry about tracking easily compensates for that. On cruisers, rockets always deal full damage. They are easier to fit than missiles and do more damage. No rocket-bonused ship is better with a different weapon. It's not possible to scram light drone (due to fact that you have to scram its carrier + drone's mwd stays enabled even if you scram it). So rocket's inability to kill light drones is by design? A light drone (especially a weak one, like a warrior), when webbed, dies to 2 volleys from a rocket crow; 3 from a rocket malediction. The rate of fire is so high, though, that the owner can't even recall them before they die. Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Originally by: Faffywaffy Rocket crow is by far better than a missile crow. I've taken out multiple ceptors (as in a 1 vs. many fight) in my rocket crow. This says more about skills/fittings of the pilots which were opposing you. Even 1 good ceptor can be a pain for a rocket crow, 2 good ceptors = almost insta-death w/o any survival chances. Depends on the ceptor. All the tackler inties die very quickly (except, of course, a rocket malediction, but rockets suck, so nobody flies those). Claws die regardless of fit (they do half their damage at 10km, while I do 100%). Scram+web taranises die painfully. The only inties that are really dangerous to a rocket crow are the pulse crusader (due to the gaping EM resist hole) and rail/dualprop taranises. But what ceptor are those three not dangerous to? Still, the point is - rocket crow > missile crow. So why is nobody complaining about missiles? Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Originally by: Faffywaffy Rocket malediction is pure win. Beats crusaders handily. Loses only to a dual-prop taranis. Also not true. Dual-prop blasteranis has pretty bad chances vs rocket malediction; railranis has much better chances to get rid of it (still, not kill - malediction has superior speed). Ok, you're just being clueless here. Go out there and try what you're suggesting... Malediction doesn't do enough damage against a taranis with an AB before it gets to blaster range. Yes, rail taranis is also dangerous, and disengaging is difficult once in scram range. Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Originally by: Faffywaffy Rocket vengeance is pure win. No other AF can beat it 1v1. If it's an AB *** inside plex it can be killed with a beamsader. If it's mwd venge outside plex it could be killed even easier. Who PVPs in a plex? A beam sader is a failfit ship - a vengeance can almost permatank it. I was talking about Assault Frigates. A ceptor could never kill a vengeance 1v1 - the vengeance would simply avoid engaging unless the ceptor goes into scram range.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.09 15:47:00 - [255] Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Originally by: Faffywaffy All of the above ships easily dispatch a flight of light drones before dying. Hell, I can take (and have taken) a rapier in my rocket crow 1v1. In a sader (both beam and pulse), you can kill 3-4 packs of t2 warriors if your mwd keeps running. That's a big if when every properly fit cruiser will sport a medium neut. Try killing a flight of light drones in a crusader when you're dual-webbed by a rapier. Originally by: Faffywaffy So where are they broken? Inability to hit fast targets in range. Rockets are a close-range weapons.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.09 16:05:00 - [256] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Yeah nice fit you've got there. Pity it costs more than a fully fitted battlecruiser. You could make the same argument about my crusader fits. I didn't always have enough money to pimp my crows. A much cheaper, similarly themed fit is nearly as effective and costs around 30mil including the hull. Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Let's get one thing clear here - you have an impressive killboard; and you have that in spite of rockets, not because of them. You found a quirky, overpriced fit and had some success through sheer ISK investment, skill and "WTF" factor. I'm pretty sure there are people around who can get results out of a Hawk; that doesn't make it any less a waste of hanger space. It does. In fact, a Hawk is another awesome ship overlooked by many. Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Quote: rockets always deal lol damage Fixed. Vs a cruiser the disparity with other weapons becomes even more pronounced; as their tracking issues become completely voided as well - and as I'm sure you're aware, an unbonused autocannon can outdps a bonused rocket launcher. You may be doing your full 100dps but a Taranis is doing its full 250. (And they generally don't need to use an extra 20mil in meta4 modules just to fit their ship, as far as I know) I always say - autocannons have complex damage; half their dps is imaginary :-) Translation: they only do their full dps when you can see the color of the opponent pilot's eyes. Rockets do their full dps at all ranges. That's why a claw dies to a rocket crow. Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington You say rockets are great. The fact that there aren't hugely more of you around sort of puts doubt on that. It makes the claim that they suck worth examining. Upon examination (and experimentation, as opposed to pure EFT fighting), however, rockets are fine.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.09 17:28:00 - [257] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 09/01/2010 17:31:19 Originally by: Faffywaffy A taranis will not be doing full damage against a cruiser. To do full damage, it has to hold still at point-blank range, at which point it will get torn up by drones and will take damage from guns/missiles. You would have to kill drones first while MWDing at full speed, and then slow down to make your own guns track decently (but not enough that the opponent cruiser can track you). This doesn't work, though, if you're being shot at with missiles. With a rocket crow, I just set orbit to 500m and forget about it. Have you ever flown taranis? Or you are EFTing it? Coz like ya know... it kills small drone in 2 salvos so more often than not your enemy will not even manage to recall it before drone dies (and in reality you dont even need to web those drones - tracking is awesome on ranis). Try doing this with malediction or actually any other rocket based ship. O yeah - you cant because you dont damage drones. Also at 500m orbit (manual) i doubt any guns can hit you. Only ones which are close are new 2x TE + medium range ammo 180mm dual ac's on vaga. Quote: It makes the claim that they suck worth examining. Upon examination (and experimentation, as opposed to pure EFT fighting), however, rockets are fine. Fighting idiot fit ships doesnt count as good "examination" tbh. Fact is that rockets deal full damage to webbed + scrammed (non-ab) ceptors. Yet not all rocket ships can use 2 mids for tackle ya know? Try flying heretic and tell me how awesome it is(oh yea - for some people heretic is only bubbler ship - why explo velocity bonus for rockets then?). And even if you exclude this one from the list you still have lolworthy DPS. You cant tell me your 60 or 80dps (even if fully applied) will be always more than taranis or sader DPS on target. Sader can easily bring 100dps at any target in range, ranis does your dps (60 - so without BCU) using drones alone. And thats in ceptor vs ceptor "duels". Enter world of any larger ship than ceptor and your theorycraft goes awry - not only any non-rocket equipped ship will deal more damage but they wont have huge issues dealing it either (the closer you are to target the safer it is). Btw - claw example was stupid anyways. 2 slot combat ceptor that has optimal of 1,5km is just lolworthy and its not surprising its one of worst ceptors out there. EDIT: and back to heretic. I can kill any ceptor in it without issues. But then so can any other interdictor and they do it even faster (sabre due to stupidly high DPS, so does Eris, Catcher due to enough mids to actually fit full tackle). And rocket veng is just **** btw - ACs all the way. Plus you still didnt respond to fitting issues of rocket launchers. 17cpu and 4 grid for a gun that deals less damage than 150mm ac (6/2 fit).
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.01.09 18:02:00 - [258] Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 09/01/2010 18:04:03 Originally by: Faffywaffy A light drone (especially a weak one, like a warrior), when webbed, dies to 2 volleys from a rocket crow; 3 from a rocket malediction. The rate of fire is so high, though, that the owner can't even recall them before they die. Did you even bother to read results of experiments 'rocket malediction vs t2 warriors' in one of my posts above? Rockets can handle them on crow, but they're 50% faster there and have substantially better chances to hit them on high speed. Originally by: Faffywaffy Depends on the ceptor. All the tackler inties die very quickly (except, of course, a rocket malediction, but rockets suck, so nobody flies those). Claws die regardless of fit (they do half their damage at 10km, while I do 100%). Scram+web taranises die painfully. The only inties that are really dangerous to a rocket crow are the pulse crusader (due to the gaping EM resist hole) and rail/dualprop taranises. But what ceptor are those three not dangerous to? Main point here is that you can't control distane vs 2 ceptors simultaneously, that's why you will die to them horribly if they're not in 'tackling only' fittings. Originally by: Faffywaffy Still, the point is - rocket crow > missile crow. So why is nobody complaining about missiles? In most cases - yes, but not in all. Originally by: Faffywaffy Ok, you're just being clueless here. Go out there and try what you're suggesting... Malediction doesn't do enough damage against a taranis with an AB before it gets to blaster range. Yes, rail taranis is also dangerous, and disengaging is difficult once in scram range. I'm not clueless. Sure, boost from ab > slowdown from web, but base speeds differ too, right? My malediction has 741 speed w/o mwd, webbed dual-prop 'ranis with coreli c-type ab has 800 with overheat and 603 w/o overheat. Do you really believe it has any chances? Besides, malediction (as most of inties who can control distance and escape when necessary) can use expensive eqipment - unlike blasteranis, who follow brave but stupid tactics 'kill or be killed'. The only dual-prop ranis ranis i met so far. I was able to escape from 8 km to 13-13.5 km range and switch to javelins. Originally by: Faffywaffy Who PVPs in a plex? I tried both 0.0 and lowsec pvp, and all i can say - most of AFs sit in low-sec static plexes. Its some special territory with special rules, but if you want to try anything vs AF i suggest you to visit couple of angel/guri static plexes. Originally by: Faffywaffy A beam sader is a failfit ship - a vengeance can almost permatank it. I was talking about Assault Frigates. A ceptor could never kill a vengeance 1v1 - the vengeance would simply avoid engaging unless the ceptor goes into scram range. Beam sader is not a fail setup - with decent isk investments, perfect skills and extremely good control you can make it working well. Vengeance even with a-type rep can't permatank my plex sader setup (106 dps w/o overheat or 125 with overheat @ 27+5 km). Besides, you can get into venge's scram range - speed of webbed sader on overheated ab > speed of ab-vengeance. Beam sader with MWD (87/102 dps at the same distance) can handle AFs which cannot be killed by any other interceptor - like jaguars (mwd/ab), ishkurs (fight happened at planet so blood raiders damaged him long before fight) etc. Theoretically you can get close results with crow, but when it comes to missiles - enemy controls which portion of damage you'll inflict, and in case with AB afs it will be ridiculous. With turrets you can control angular velocity using various techniques, which enables good inty pilot to inflict 100% of ships' theoretical dama
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.01.09 18:12:00 - [259] Originally by: Faffywaffy That's a big if when every properly fit cruiser will sport a medium neut. Try killing a flight of light drones in a crusader when you're dual-webbed by a rapier. 1, 2. As you can see their drone bay is empty - both had 8 t2 warriors. But! It's nearly impossible to kill even 2-3 t2 warriors in dual pulse 'sader when your speed drops below 300-500 - as you can't control angular velocity at all. Originally by: Faffywaffy Rockets are a close-range weapons meant to be used on ships whose main function is tackle. So the obvious question is - why are you shooting at something that is within scram range, but is also moving fast (drones excluded, discussed previously)? Or to rephrase - why is something within your scram range but is moving fast, unless it's not your current target. It's you who decided to exclude drones, not me. Rockets on malediction (even with my all 5 skills, even spec is trained to 5) totally suck at hitting drones. My single 270mm arti hits them better than group of rockets, wtf? To hit drones reliably, malediction has to stop (warriors will stop mwd'ing around too and move to orbit w/o it, which enables rockets to hit them at least in some way). This means alot more damage from drones, more damage from other ships - in certain cases dropping speed means insta-death.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.09 18:37:00 - [260] Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 09/01/2010 18:18:28 Did you even bother to read results of experiments 'rocket malediction vs t2 warriors' in one of my posts above? Rockets can handle them on crow, but they're 50% faster there and have substantially better chances to hit them on high speed. I have now, and I have no idea what you're talking about. As I said, I can easily kill light drones in a rocket malediction. Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Main point here is that you can't control distance vs 2 ceptors simultaneously, that's why you will die to them horribly if they're not in 'tackling only' fittings. Yes, you are correct - a crow can't kill 2 fighter inties. It can, however, kill most fighter inties 1v1, and can kill many tackler inties 1v2. Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Originally by: Faffywaffy Still, the point is - rocket crow > missile crow. So why is nobody complaining about missiles? In most cases - yes, but not in all. So why is nobody complaining about the anemic damage of standard missile launchers? Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Originally by: Faffywaffy Ok, you're just being clueless here. Go out there and try what you're suggesting... Malediction doesn't do enough damage against a taranis with an AB before it gets to blaster range. Yes, rail taranis is also dangerous, and disengaging is difficult once in scram range. I'm not clueless. Sure, boost from ab > slowdown from web, but base speeds differ too, right? My malediction has 741 speed w/o mwd, webbed dual-prop 'ranis with coreli c-type ab has 800 with overheat and 603 w/o overheat. Do you really believe it has any chances? First, a malediction going that fast is almost certainly a fail-fit with at least 3 (if not more) speed mods. It would instapop to anything that sneezes in its general direction. Second, looking at my taranis fit, with a c-type coreli AB and the standard speed implants for a ceptor pilot (Zor's and the +3% speed one), it goes 2319m/s overheated, which after applying a web drops to 927.6m/s, so I have no idea where you're taking your figures from (perhaps you're looking at a taranis with no OD?). Third, as everyone keeps mentioning here, damage from rockets is significantly reduced when the target is ABing at those speeds. Fourth, the taranis still has drones, which your uber-fast malediction can't tank, so it will have to shoot them first. Without a web on them, you won't be doing a lot of damage, and if you switch the web to the drones, the taranis will be on top of you at no time.

Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.09 18:43:00 - [261] I can't really comment on plex-fighting, as I've done very little of that. Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Originally by: Faffywaffy Try killing a flight of light drones in a crusader when you're dual-webbed by a rapier. 1, 2. As you can see their drone bay is empty - both had 8 t2 warriors. You're right, and I take my words back. Even dual webbed, the drones are still in "pursuit" mode, and you can track them. Originally by: Kadesh Priestess But! It's nearly impossible to kill even 2-3 t2 warriors in dual pulse 'sader when your speed drops below 300-500 - as you can't control angular velocity at all. That was my point, but I failed to realize that even dual webbed, a crusader is still fast enough that the drones are chasing and not orbiting. It all goes to crap when you're neuted, though, so that point stands. Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Originally by: Faffywaffy Rockets are a close-range weapons meant to be used on ships whose main function is tackle. So the obvious question is - why are you shooting at something that is within scram range, but is also moving fast (drones excluded, discussed previously)? Or to rephrase - why is something within your scram range but is moving fast, unless it's not your current target. It's you who decided to exclude drones, not me. Rockets on malediction (even with my all 5 skills, even spec is trained to 5) totally suck at hitting drones. My single 270mm arti hits them better than group of rockets, wtf? No idea what you're talking about. My experience is the opposite of yours here. Originally by: Kadesh Priestess To hit drones reliably, malediction has to stop (warriors will stop mwd'ing around too and move to orbit w/o it, which enables rockets to hit them at least in some way). This means alot more damage from drones, more damage from other ships - in certain cases dropping speed means insta-death. Ok, now I really have no idea what you're talking about. If you set orbit to 500m, the light drones will never be more than a few km away from you. You can then easily web and kill them.
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.01.09 18:51:00 - [262] Originally by: Faffywaffy I have now, and I have no idea what you're talking about. As I said, I can easily kill light drones in a rocket malediction. Maybe you've tried to kill t2 warriors which were actually far from perfect? I'm going to re-test this thingy with friend of mine who has maxed skills for light drones, will pack logs and show you if you don't believe. Webbing drone maybe good idea, but if it won't have enough velocity to keep up with malediction - it will fall out of attack range in just 2-3 seconds. Originally by: Faffywaffy So why is nobody complaining about the anemic damage of standard missile launchers? That's why i do not emphasize lack of dps as rocket-only issue. Standards suck vs ab-afs, vs mwd-inties theirs damage is even more ridiculous, especially if target mwd has no shield mods and good mwd. Rockets suffer from missile flight mechanics at high speeds, whole small missile class suffers from lack of dps/ability to deliver good percentage of theoretical dps. Originally by: Faffywaffy First, a malediction going that fast is almost certainly a fail-fit with at least 3 (if not more) speed mods. It would instapop to anything that sneezes in its general direction. My malediction has 3500+ effective hp and reps 70-80 hp per seconds while still having such speed. Originally by: Faffywaffy Second, looking at my taranis fit, with a c-type coreli AB and the standard speed implants for a ceptor pilot (Zor's and the +3% speed one), it goes 2319m/s overheated, which after applying a web drops to 927.6m/s, so I have no idea where you're taking your figures from (perhaps you're looking at a taranis with no OD?). Yes, standard dualprop ranis fit - 300 dps, mwd+ab, mapc+damage modifier+dcu. No speedmods at all (expcept for zor), 6th slot occupied by 5% small hybrid damage inplant which is damn cheap. You seem to be using dual-prop setup which relies more on speed, mind sharing? Originally by: Faffywaffy I have now, and I have no idea what you're talking about. As I said, I can easily kill light drones in a rocket malediction. Maybe you've tried to kill t2 warriors which were actually far from perfect? I'm going to re-test this thingy with friend of mine who has maxed skills for light drones, will pack logs and show you if you don't believe. Webbing drone maybe good idea, but if it won't have enough velocity to keep up with malediction - it will fall out of attack range in just 2-3 seconds. Originally by: Faffywaffy So why is nobody complaining about the anemic damage of standard missile launchers? That's why i do not emphasize lack of dps as rocket-only issue. Standards suck vs ab-afs, vs mwd-inties theirs damage is even more ridiculous, especially if target mwd has no shield mods and good mwd. Rockets suffer from missile flight mechanics at high speeds, whole small missile class suffers from lack of dps/ability to deliver good percentage of theoretical dps. Originally by: Faffywaffy First, a malediction going that fast is almost certainly a fail-fit with at least 3 (if not more) speed mods. It would instapop to anything that sneezes in its general direction. My malediction has 3500+ effective hp and reps 70-80 hp per seconds while still having such speed. Originally by: Faffywaffy Third, as everyone keeps mentioning here, damage from rockets is significantly reduced when the target is ABing at those speeds. Yes, but it's still not enough to get into malediction's range before it inflicts critical amount of damage. If you wish to try that on sisi i can spend some time tomorrow. Originally by: Faffywaffy Fourth, the taranis still has drones, which your uber-fast malediction can't tank, so it will have to shoot them first. Without a web on them, you won't be doing a lot of damage, and if you switch the web to the drones, the taranis will be on top of you at no time. Malediction with no tank is a no-go imo.
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.01.09 18:58:00 - [263] Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 09/01/2010 18:59:46 Originally by: Faffywaffy That was my point, but I failed to realize that even dual webbed, a crusader is still fast enough that the drones are chasing and not orbiting. It all goes to crap when you're neuted, though, so that point stands. True, but only dual-pulsader can't hit them reliably as he has **tiest tracking and 2 meds. Ranis/claw/and maybe even gatling sader with active tank can handle flight of warriors. Originally by:** Faffywaffy Ok, now I really have no idea what you're talking about. If you set orbit to 500m, the light drones will never be more than a few km away from you. You can then easily web and kill them. Now i understand why your experience opposes mine - i don't like 'ranis-style' (orbiting at extremely close range with mwd or without it) as it makes it almost impossible to escape when things go wrong (lotsa webs+scram or neuts). Malediction can take advantage of scram range bonus and with good web and scram can keep outside of its target's web/scram/neut range while having it webbed and scrammed. If you orbit at 500 - you will be able to hit them, yes. When you orbit at 8-13 km rockets will just vanish before inflicting any damage to t2 warriors which pursue you.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.09 19:34:00 - [264] Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 09/01/2010 18:59:46 Originally by: Faffywaffy Ok, now I really have no idea what you're talking about. If you set orbit to 500m, the light drones will never be more than a few km away from you. You can then easily web and kill them. Now i understand why your experience opposes mine - i don't like 'ranis-style' (orbiting at extremely close range with mwd or without it) as it makes it almost impossible to escape when things go wrong (lotsa webs+scram or neuts). Malediction can take advantage of scram range bonus and with good web and scram can keep outside of its target's web/scram/neut range while having it webbed and scrammed. If you orbit at 500 - you will be able to hit them, yes. When you orbit at 8-13 km rockets will just vanish before inflicting any damage to t2 warriors which pursue you. You can still kill them even orbiting at a wide orbit, but it takes some micro-management. If you time the webbing and the shooting properly, you will still do significant damage. You might have to switch to a closer target once the one you're shooting it starts lagging though. At that wide an orbit, however (MWD on), they're not doing a lot of damage anyway and you can tank them easily.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.01.09 20:35:00 - [265] Originally by: Faffywaffy Edited by: Faffywaffy on 09/01/2010 07:39:28 Rockets are fine as-is. Yes, to deal full damage to a ceptor with rockets, you need to have it scrambled and webbed It's not always true that you will deal full damage to a webbed/scrammed inty, even if it doesn't have an AB. A MWD crusader with 2 ODI's will still take reduced damage from rockets, as it does 700m/s without a MWD on. Any AB ceptor will get a massive reduction. I agree that rockets aren't as bad as people think, but they could use a boost. A proper dogfighting 'sader or ranis should eat a crow or male easily. Rockets are the best weapon system for a 'diction though(I don't fly Crows, but I suspect it's the same deal there) for sheer versatility, moderate range with no tracking problems if you need a tight orbit against a frig. I sure would like to be able to duel prop my malediction though
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.10 09:26:00 - [266] I still like my idea of rockets bypassing the shields and armor and doing hull damage. It would make them very unique and perhaps not "LOL" to fit on ships that do not get rocket bonuses. I was flamed once earlier in this thread for this suggestion but would a change like that really be ridiculous? Some other aspects could be changed of course but would 'hull killers' be OP or worthless?
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.01.10 11:56:00 - [267] Originally by: Marlona Sky I still like my idea of rockets bypassing the shields and armor and doing hull damage. It would make them very unique and perhaps not "LOL" to fit on ships that do not get rocket bonuses. I was flamed once earlier in this thread for this suggestion but would a change like that really be ridiculous? Some other aspects could be changed of course but would 'hull killers' be OP or worthless? Even for a game that takes more liberties with realism than EVE - this idea is ****ing stupid and if you genuinely can't see why it's OP, I pity you. _________________________________
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.10 12:03:00 - [268] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: Marlona Sky I still like my idea of rockets bypassing the shields and armor and doing hull damage. It would make them very unique and perhaps not "LOL" to fit on ships that do not get rocket bonuses. I was flamed once earlier in this thread for this suggestion but would a change like that really be ridiculous? Some other aspects could be changed of course but would 'hull killers' be OP or worthless? Even for a game that takes more liberties with realism than EVE - this idea is ****ing stupid and if you genuinely can't see why it's OP, I pity you. Such anger. So reduce the damage of rockets if they do hull damage or something else so it wouldn't be OP. It would give rockets a niche instead of just a baby brother to light missiles. Either way, U mad?
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.10 16:30:00 - [269] Yet Duchess is right. I know some people just dont see difference between balanced/better and imba/pwn (yeh im looking mostly at Bellum here... but i guess thats not an exception). Rockets hitting hull = can full of worms. And its not like you can balance it - more rocket ships = stuff dying faster. To a point where kessy swarm will be able to instapop few battleships before they get even locked.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.01.10 20:44:00 - [270] Quote: Fact is that rockets deal full damage to webbed + scrammed (non-ab) ceptors. Yet not all rocket ships can use 2 mids for tackle ya know? This is the issue. It's all very well doing full damage to a webbed, scrambled, non-ABing target... but that's no bloody use when I meet a dual-prop frigate and my rocket platform doesn't have the medslots to actually fit a web. To an unwebbed dual-prop frigate you're talking about ~25% damage, which is pathetic frankly, given the low DPS to start with. A turret ship can control range and transversal to apply its much superior DPS, what can the rocket user do?

Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.10 21:08:00 - [271] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Yet Duchess is right. I know some people just dont see difference between balanced/better and imba/pwn (yeh im looking mostly at Bellum here... but i guess thats not an exception). Rockets hitting hull = can full of worms. And its not like you can balance it - more rocket ships = stuff dying faster. To a point where kessy swarm will be able to instapop few battleships before they get even locked. I gotcha, I was just trying to think outside of the box for something unique. /me shrugs
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.11 20:01:00 - [272] Originally by: Gypsio III Quote: Fact is that rockets deal full damage to webbed + scrammed (non-ab) ceptors. Yet not all rocket ships can use 2 mids for tackle ya know? This is the issue. It's all very well doing full damage to a webbed, scrambled, non-ABing target... but that's no bloody use when I meet a dual-prop frigate and my rocket platform doesn't have the medslots to actually fit a web. To an unwebbed dual-prop frigate you're talking about ~25% damage, which is pathetic frankly, given the low DPS to start with. A turret ship can control range and transversal to apply its much superior DPS, what can the rocket user do? So, a 3 midslot ship has an advantage over a 2 midslot one where speed is an important factor. What else is new? Let's try this the other way around: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This is the issue. It's all very well doing full damage to a webbed, scrambled, non-ABing target... but that's no bloody use when I meet a dual-prop frigate and my turret platform doesn't have the medslots to actually fit a web. To an unwebbed dual-prop frigate orbiting me at 500 meters you're talking about ~25% damage, which is pathetic frankly, given the low DPS to start with. A rocket ship can control range and transversal to avoid almost all of my dps while dealing 100% of its own, what can the turret user do? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ever try a scram+web rocket malediction against a crusader? You don't even need an AB to almost completely tank the crusader's damage while orbiting at 500. Here are some examples. It's even easier against a claw, which you just kite at 9km.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.11 20:52:00 - [273] Clap, clap. You killed 4 horribad fit crusaders. Want a lolipop? Even kestrel could do this btw against those fits. But then you someday end up fighting against competetive pilot who actually has a clue and you see how badly your ship is outclassed.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.12 00:35:00 - [274] Originally by: Deva Blackfire <insults, blah blah blah> But then you someday end up fighting against competetive pilot who actually has a clue and you see how badly your ship is outclassed. I have. You'll be hard pressed to find a better Crusader pilot than KurMur and experimenting on the test server resulted in his Crusader dying to my rocket Malediction.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.12 01:22:00 - [275] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/01/2010 01:35:55 I still have no idea what you are trying to prove. If you try to prove that rockets are working fine you already failed by assuming that anti frigate weapon system (and it is anti-frig system as its primary weapon system for frig-hunter interdictor: heretic) is ok IF it engages webbed and scrambled target. Weapon system should be able to damage its favoured target without using 2 additional modules to circumvent its flaws. Any other frig sized weapon system can be made useful by proper positioning and managing transversal, be it lasers, blasters, acs or even artilery. Yet rockets fail in this case as they are totally useless as long as your target is ... moving. So here we go - 1st flaw. But as im talking about speed lets try AB frigates. Oh yes, all other frig weapon systems can damage those by keeping their respective transversal (radial) on par with their weapon tracking. Only piloting skill. What can rocket user do? Cry because without web (or even 2 webs - as single webbed target gets quite nice damage reduction in ~40% range) he is useless. Another flaw which came out after CCP wanted to give AB bonus to AFs. Lets go forward. Engaging larger ships (or even larger frigate sized hulls like bombers/EAS). Rockets compared to other weapon systems lack DPS. Bonused (malediction) rocket launcher deals 18/20/22dps (normal, CN, rage rockets) wheras even stupid gatling pulse laser (which can work in same range bracket) deals 21-26 dps (scorch-AN multi range). So 3rd and easily visible flaw - low dps. Next lets talk about engaging light drones. Or should i just ignore this part and just say light drones are almost invulnerable to this weapon system wheras even small arti can kill them? Ofc the issue doesnt exist only on explo velocity level. In this case you often land in rocket velocity issue: maxskilled rockets fly around 3km/s where most (all?) light drones can outrun them and be invulnerable. Ofc web somewhat reduces the issue. But again: you are saying that weapon system is ok IF you use additional modules to make it work. That makes it 4. Fifth issue: rocket range. If you kite enemies at around 10km mark you already know that rockets dont hit unless enemy is following you. There is additional issue you might not be aware of: some ships STILL fire rockets in front of them so kiting is basically impossible (or possible at reduced ranges). Try heretic for example. Launching rocket from ship forces the missile to move FORWARD from the ship and in case of kiting - you fire it AWAY from enemy just to wait for it to turn back towards its target. As a result you get reduced range. The issue existed (from rocket ships i flown) on vengeance and heretic. Not 100% sure if it was on malediction, cant remember now. Anyho it does exist and its also a major flawh for weapon that shows theoretical range of 10km (8-9 with speed up) and you ending up with ~6km. Hmmm what else. Ahhhh fitting issues. Rocket launchers are short ranged weapon system that eats more cpu than any other frig weapon system (bar medium pulse-beam laser which in reality are destroyer sized mods as they barely fit on any frig maybe save for grid-heavy retribution). CPU heavy weapon system mounted on ships with quite low CPU amount (and again: especially visible on heretic) is not a good idea. But in this case it might be enough to tweak heretic itself. Anyways thats a barrage for you. And stop saying that rockets are ok because when you use 2 more modules they can actually kill stuff. Sure in this case i can kill frigs with stealth bomber if i use webs and multiple-ecm mods. Still it doesnt make torps anti-frigate weapon system just because it is possible to do so. EDIT: also its possible i missed one or two more points, its late and i really cba to dig thru older threads atm.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.12 01:50:00 - [276] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Weapon system should be able to damage its favoured target without using 2 additional modules to circumvent its flaws. Any other frig sized weapon system can be made useful by proper positioning and managing transversal, be it lasers, blasters, acs or even artilery. Yet rockets fail in this case as they are totally useless as long as your target is ... moving. So here we go - 1st flaw. So your argument is that rockets are bad because their damage is reduced by the target's speed? Well, guess what, all missiles behave the way (and drones too). So rockets are bad because they are not turrets? Let me try and drill this into you again. For turrets, relative velocity (and position) are used to reduce dps. For missiles absolute velocity is used to reduce dps. In some situations, you can control one better than the other. Therefore in some situations turrets are better, and in others, missiles are better. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Something about rocket dps. Yes, dps is not very high. Rockets would be amazingly overpowered if they did the same damage as lasers at the same range. I believe I've already explained the advantages of missiles. Originally by: Deva Blackfire But as im talking about speed lets try AB frigates. Oh yes, all other frig weapon systems can damage those by keeping their respective transversal (radial) on par with their weapon tracking. Only piloting skill. What can rocket user do? Cry because without web (or even 2 webs - as single webbed target gets quite nice damage reduction in ~40% range) he is useless. Another flaw which came out after CCP wanted to give AB bonus to AFs. How is your piloting skill going to help you when you are scrammed and webbed and orbited at 1.5 of your tracking speed? Fit a web. I will give you that the Heretic is broken, but from that to broken rockets is a huge leap. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Next lets talk about engaging light drones. Light drones easily die to rockets if you do it properly (explained in a previous post). Originally by: Deva Blackfire Fifth issue: rocket range. If you kite enemies at around 10km mark you already know that rockets dont hit unless enemy is following you. There is additional issue you might not be aware of: some ships STILL fire rockets in front of them so kiting is basically impossible (or possible at reduced ranges). I've never experienced that, but if true, this does need fixing. Originally by: Deva Blackfire And stop saying that rockets are ok because when you use 2 more modules they can actually kill stuff. You say that as if a scram and a web are not standard gear on frigates but some magical extra modules that are only useful to make rockets hit.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.12 02:10:00 - [277] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/01/2010 02:14:31 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/01/2010 02:10:25 Originally by: Faffywaffy So your argument is that rockets are bad because their damage is reduced by the target's speed? Well, guess what, all missiles behave the way (and drones too). So rockets are bad because they are not turrets? Im quite sure i said about engaging your own sized enemy: using rockets (frig weapon) to kill frigs. Im quite ok with engaging cruisers using HAMs or heavies even without additional webs on their face. Same i can use torps vs battleships without heavy webbing - they work ok. Only rockets have gimped explosion velocity compared to their preferred target. Quote: Yes, dps is not very high. Rockets would be amazingly overpowered if they did the same damage as lasers at the same range. I believe I've already explained the advantages of missiles. Your previous quote: Quote: A rocket ship can control range and transversal to avoid almost all of my dps while dealing 100% of its own, what can the turret user do? For example he can control HIS range and HIS transversal to negate your advantages and actually start hitting? And then absolute velocity gimmick means he is hitting you for full (or almost full) damage yet you are always cut the set % (+- a little as he manouvres). You know you arent the only pilot in eve who can actually change ship facing during combat. Quote: Let me try and drill this into you again. For turrets, relative velocity (and position) are used to reduce dps. For missiles absolute velocity is used to reduce dps. In some situations, you can control one better than the other. Therefore in some situations turrets are better, and in others, missiles are better. Im quite sure that at some point (AB frig) relative velocity will also translate onto absolute velocity wheras it wont work the other way. Thus you can reduce relative velocity issue by positioning and you can not reduce the absolute velocity unless you use additional module(s). Quote: How is your piloting skill going to help you when you are scrammed and webbed and orbited at 1.5 of your tracking speed? Fit a web. I will give you that the Heretic is broken, but from that to broken rockets is a huge leap. Again: fitting additional module just to make weapon system work doesnt make it not-broken. So you again prove my point: you absolutely need web to actually kill something = broken weapon system. Quote: Originally by: Deva Blackfire And stop saying that rockets are ok because when you use 2 more modules they can actually kill stuff. You say that as if a scram and a web are not standard gear on frigates but some magical extra modules that are only useful to make rockets hit. Doesnt matter. If i wanted to go NPCing with rockets id prefer to see them damage NPCs without me needing to web (or double web) them. I dont need to web cruiser enemy to kill it with cruiser missile system. I dont need to web BS enemy to kill it with BS weapon system. Yet i need to use web on ship that has least midslots from all classes (frig) to actually damage other frig. And yes - you ASSUME that every frig uses MWD, web, scram. You know why? Because dual-prop malediction will not work because of... broken weapon system. If rockets werent broken you could go dual prop. If rockets werent broken you could go dual tackle (disrupt+scram). So paraphrasing your own words: your argument is that rockets are fine because when you use 2 additional modules you can actually damage your target. And like i said above: in this way i can say everything which is not working is ok. Why people are saying blasters are bad? Use 2-3 webs, AB and MWD and you can get close to enemy and kill it. Same logic, different problem.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.12 02:59:00 - [278] I tire of answering the same arguments over and over again. I have a proven track record using rockets. My rocket skills are maxed out. Nobody would benefit more than me from a rocket boost. I think it boils down to this: People who expect to do significant damage to an untackled frigate will think rockets are broken. People with no such expectation don't care what kind of damage rockets (or any weapon) will do to such a target, because if it's not tackled, it's probably not going to die anyway (unless it does something stupid). Oh, and a disruptor on a frigate is minor annoyance, not tackle. I'm done.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.12 08:48:00 - [279] Originally by: Faffywaffy maxed out rocket guy stuff I'm agreeing with Deva, rockets are ***ed! You should not have* to have perfect skills with a weapon and be in the perfect circumstance in order for a weapon to be decent. Rockets need to be reworked from the ground up. They fill no role what so ever in their current form.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.12 13:41:00 - [280] Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Faffywaffy maxed out rocket guy stuff I'm agreeing with Deva, rockets are ***ed! You should not have* to have perfect skills with a weapon and be in the perfect circumstance in order for a weapon to be decent. Rockets need to be reworked from the ground up. They fill no role what so ever in their current form. Its not even issue of having perfect skills. Surprisingly enough Deva has maxed missile skills too (at least for HAMs and rockets - everything 5 including spec). Again sayin same thing: having to depend on another module or two for weapon to be useful is stupid. Its almost like the idea of using target painters on hostile dreads for your phoenix to deal max damage. Lol. Pretty much web is the AB counter. All missile system (except rockets) work without web. You need one when enemy uses AB to counter his missile evasion velocity. In case of rockets you need TWO webs to counter AB - one for normal speed and another for AB velocity gain.

Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2010.01.12 15:13:00 - [281] Needing to double web a frig to get perfect damage is how it is supposed to be. The real issue is DPS. Most other weapons don't get very good hits on a non-webbed frig either, but they're more effective because of their higher DPS, not because of their superior tracking. Like I've mentioned many a time before, no more than a 20-25% boost in explosion velocity for short range missiles is warranted. A Vengeance gets 20 DPS per launcher after the bonus. A dual light pulse w/ multifrequency gets 23 DPS. I'd rather see the vengeance get 30 DPS per launcher than to keep the DPS as-is while doubling the explosion velocity. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.01.12 23:32:00 - [282] Originally by: Faffywaffy So your argument is that rockets are bad because their damage is reduced by the target's speed? Well, guess what, all missiles behave the way (and drones too). So rockets are bad because they are not turrets? This problem only really applies to frigate sized missiles since bigger ships rarely use AB's. As I said in the other thread, the fact that an AB reduces missile dps by such a HUGE amount is most definitely a problem. Also, RE-drones, yes you can kill them if you're in tight orbit using a web, but what if you use a long point and are orbiting at 20km+ in a gang? Rockets can't touch drones in that situation.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.12 23:49:00 - [283] Originally by: Braitai Originally by: Faffywaffy So your argument is that rockets are bad because their damage is reduced by the target's speed? Well, guess what, all missiles behave the way (and drones too). So rockets are bad because they are not turrets? This problem only really applies to frigate sized missiles since bigger ships rarely use AB's. As I said in the other thread, the fact that an AB reduces missile dps by such a HUGE amount is most definitely a problem. Also, RE-drones, yes you can kill them if you're in tight orbit using a web, but what if you use a long point and are orbiting at 20km+ in a gang? Rockets can't touch drones in that situation. Dont yuou know that EVERY rocket ship uses MWD, web and scrambler? He said so so it must be true. Quote: Needing to double web a frig to get perfect damage is how it is supposed to be. The real issue is DPS. Most other weapons don't get very good hits on a non-webbed frig either, but they're more effective because of their higher DPS, not because of their superior tracking. Not really. You can get good hits in non-web vs non-web frig combat and you can get in single-web vs single-web frig combat. But if you go non-web turret frig vs non-web rocket frig rocket one will always (except rare idiot-pilot case) lose. Web is (and shouls be) counter for AB. And it works well in larger ships/missile systems. HAM, heavy missile, torp, cruise - all work well vs non-ABing ship. If ship uses AB all you need is 1x web to get damage back to its normal level. In case of frigs you need web to get NORMAL level and 2 webs to counter ABing frig. This IS broken. So its not how it was "supposed" to be. Well unless we give additional 2 mid slots to every rocket ship to fit 2 webs.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.01.12 23:56:00 - [284] Originally by: Deva Blackfire In case of frigs you need web to get NORMAL level and 2 webs to counter ABing frig. This IS broken. This.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.01.13 13:50:00 - [285] Let's get this spelled out: - Rockets getting reduced damage on fast targets = fine. - An explosion velocity slower than HAMs = NO excuse whatsoever. _________________________________
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.13 13:56:00 - [286] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Let's get this spelled out: - Rockets getting reduced damage on fast targets = fine. - An explosion velocity slower than HAMs = NO excuse whatsoever. Never said its bad that they get reduced damage on fast target. And by fast target i assume it is the ship that is faster than any other ship in its cattegory (for example vaga getting reduced missile damage compared to other HACs, cynabal to cruisers or dramiel to frigs) OR ship using "speed tanking" modules like overdrives, nanos, ABs. Have absolutely no problem with ships using those getting less damage than non-fit ships. But the moment you engage clear frig hull and get reduced damage its just broken. And yeh the issue comes from rocket explo velocity so both are connected to each other.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.01.13 14:45:00 - [287] Originally by: Braitai Originally by: Deva Blackfire In case of frigs you need web to get NORMAL level and 2 webs to counter ABing frig. This IS broken. This. It's especially broken on ships that have so few medslots - frigates.
Morgals Dark Star Industries	Posted - 2010.01.13 15:39:00 - [288] It would not be so bad but some ship have a bonus to rockets. If your going to make rockets so terrible and at best some sort of secodary bonus..give these ships a normal missile bonus. It does seem odd that rockets are so terrbile that any other weapons system on a rocket bonus ship is still considered more effective. Dark Star Industries Actions speak louder than words. Let us show you=> DSI-Recruitment in game channel
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.01.13 17:36:00 - [289] Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 13/01/2010 17:37:42 Rockets are missiles, therefore should be able to always hit their intended target (even for a small amount of damage, as long as it is within missile range) without needing a web. A web should be used only to increase the damage inflicted due to explosion velocity, not to slow down targets enough so that a rocket can impact on them. If you need one web to slow the target enough to hit, and another to negate the damage mitigation due to ship/explosion velocities, then there is a balance issue. Why do I see people arguing that they are OK if you use a web and scram? When I see rocket crow with 137 dps mentioned, I know I am looking at this fit: [Crow, Rockets] Ballistic Control System II Co-Processor II Damage Control II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Can the guy that said all that stuff about rockets and them being good explain how will that Crow do against this fit: [Taranis, Eltar] Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 1MN MicroWarpdrive I 1MN Afterburner I J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Warrior II x2 Notice that the Ranis, even though it's packing Neutrons (not the best tracking for light hybrid turrets) makes do with only scram. Why should Crow need more, when it's weapons are DESIGNED to always hit? If anyone is proposing that a Rocket bonused ship is good, when it needs to sacrifice both speed and tank and still not get enough gank and not be able to deliver on target, then he is delusional. The fact that you got a few KM because of luck/ surprise factor, it does not make it the rule. It's an exception. Good for you, but still the rest of us would like to have a working as intended weapon system. ----------------------------------------------- This is a line of text without any meaning. -----------------------------------------------
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.01.13 21:21:00 - [290] Originally by: Tagami Wasp Why do I see people arguing that they are OK if you use a web and scram? When I see rocket crow with 137 dps mentioned, I know I am looking at this fit: [Crow, Rockets] [Taranis, Eltar] That will not be the crow fit (although close), and against a t1 AB Taranis, the crow will still most likely manage to keep outside blaster range (and win). Btw, never shoot frigates with rage rockets.

Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.01.13 21:59:00 - [291] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 13/01/2010 21:59:13 Originally by: Faffywaffy Yes, dps is not very high. Rockets would be amazingly overpowered if they did the same damage as lasers at the same range. I believe I've already explained the advantages of missiles. Battleship and cruiser missiles do exactly that, but for some strange reason, nobody whines about it. Like it or not, frigate missiles are broken. They need at leasta 50% increase in dps, probably more like 100%, to be balanced with other close-range weapons. -----------
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.01.14 00:29:00 - [292] Originally by: Faffywaffy Originally by: Tagami Wasp Why do I see people arguing that they are OK if you use a web and scram? When I see rocket crow with 137 dps mentioned, I know I am looking at this fit: [Crow, Rockets] [Taranis, Eltar] That will not be the crow fit (although close), and against a t1 AB Taranis, the crow will still most likely manage to keep outside blaster range (and win). Btw, never shoot frigates with rage rockets. You said 137, not 138, if you know your crows, that spells it out pretty much. I made an argument, please elaborate on yours. btw, the Ranis fit I posted can do T2 AB just fine. I didn't pay attention to it when I copy pasted, you are right a T2 AB overheated will give it an appreciable edge. Also 2x Warrior IIs will chew the Crow up. ----------------------------------------------- This is a line of text without any meaning. -----------------------------------------------
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2010.01.14 02:17:00 - [293] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington An explosion velocity slower than HAMs = NO excuse whatsoever. I'm beginning to wonder if you are going to grasp the concept of the explosion velocity stat being a meaningless number by itself. It has been explained to you numerous times, yet you continue to insist HAMs have a higher eVel than rockets. This is not so. The real explosion velocity is 170m/s, not 85m/s. Remember it. Though granted an explosion velocity of 212.5 would be more appropriate (25% more), any higher than that would be too much. Originally by: Tagami Wasp Rockets are missiles, therefore should be able to always hit their intended target (even for a small amount of damage, as long as it is within missile range) without needing a web. A web should be used only to increase the damage inflicted due to explosion velocity, not to slow down targets enough so that a rocket can impact on them. If you need one web to slow the target enough to hit, and another to negate the damage mitigation due to ship/explosion velocities, then there is a balance issue. The missile velocity issue can not be remedied until CCP decides to re-define how Destiny handles missiles. Until then, they can not have a reasonable deployment method. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.01.14 14:15:00 - [294] Originally by: Allen Ramses The missile velocity issue can not be remedied until CCP decides to re-define how Destiny handles missiles. Until then, they can not have a reasonable deployment method. The problem with rockets is bigger than the rest of the missiles. It is possible for a target to outrun a rocket, which will fizzle. This needs to be fixed. If within range, (missile velocity * flight time) a target should be hit even for 0 point of damage. It is now possible to MISS with a missile. ----------------------------------------------- This is a line of text without any meaning. -----------------------------------------------
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.14 14:38:00 - [295] I think the whole missile agility issue could be easily fixed by doing just easy check: "if target is within velocity*time it is hit". I know it would make moving out of range (after missile was fired) impossible (it would still count as hit) but on the other hand it would remove issues with launch vector, missiles agility, targets faster than missiles etc.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.14 16:51:00 - [296] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Braitai Originally by: Deva Blackfire In case of frigs you need web to get NORMAL level and 2 webs to counter ABing frig. This IS broken. This. It's especially broken on ships that have so few medslots - frigates. This. And the one ship who actually showed some promise of being able to use (waht I hoped to be a redesigend weapon system) was the Hookbill. But even that ship got messed up due to low PG and low CPU in the design. What on earth was teh designers thinking when they made that ship?? I mean, the slicer was turend into a fine ship, and I see some people liking comat (firetail is just outclassed in all respects to dramiel). So what went wrong with the missile frig? I have used rockets ebough to see that they underperform compared to other missile systems (granted, I don't have all 5, spec is "only" at 4, but supports are maxed). At least exp vel needs a huge boost! I would deem a slight dps boost to be in order as well. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2010.01.14 21:07:00 - [297] Originally by: Tagami Wasp The problem with rockets is bigger than the rest of the missiles. It is possible for a target to outrun a rocket, which will fizzle. This needs to be fixed. How exactly do you think it can be fixed without re-defining the way Destiny handles missiles? There is currently no way of modifying missile velocity for rockets without **ing something else up, particularly because of effective range, flight time, and initial velocity. Originally by:** Deva Blackfire I think the whole missile agility issue could be easily fixed by doing just easy check: "if target is within velocity*time it is hit". I know it would make moving out of range (after missile was fired) impossible (it would still count as hit) but on the other hand it would remove issues with launch vector, missiles agility, targets faster than missiles etc. You're on the right track, however I think there needs to be more to it than this. For rockets, which have the least flight time, this might be the way it works effectively, but the formula can't be so, or else that'd open up more cans of worms. The way I see it, the best way to address the situation is to make flight time a static number which is a multiple of the tick interval, and modify the bombardment skill to apply a velocity bonus, and modify both range skills to 5% instead of 10% while adjusting base stats to compensate(this needs to be done anyway). Each tick interval, a simple vector intercept check would be done, taking only target trajectory and missile velocity into consideration. If the missile can intercept, it's a hit. Otherwise, the missile would be moved in the direction of the intercept vector by however far it can travel, and the check would be performed again in the next tick interval. By doing this, it would fix the initial velocity problem, make missiles intercept targets instead of follow them, and allow vastly increased missile velocities. Collectively, this would make targets outrunning missiles an exceptionally rare occurrence. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.01.15 02:21:00 - [298] Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 15/01/2010 02:21:53 Originally by: Allen Ramses How exactly do you think it can be fixed without re-defining the way Destiny handles missiles? There is currently no way of modifying missile velocity for rockets without ****ing something else up, particularly because of effective range, flight time, and initial velocity... The way I see it, the best way to address the situation is to make flight time a static number which is a multiple of the tick interval, and modify the bombardment skill to apply a velocity bonus, and modify both range skills to 5% instead of 10% while adjusting base stats to compensate(this needs to be done anyway). Each tick interval, a simple vector intercept check would be done, taking only target trajectory and missile velocity into consideration. If the missile can intercept, it's a hit. Otherwise, the missile would be moved in the direction of the intercept vector by however far it can travel, and the check would be performed again in the next tick interval. By doing this, it would fix the initial velocity problem, make missiles intercept targets instead of follow them, and allow vastly increased missile velocities. Collectively, this would make targets outrunning missiles an exceptionally rare occurrence. Good solution to fix trajectory issues, but I am concerned about the lag this will create. However, this does not fix the situation where a ship is firing rockets and the target outruns them and their explosions because a rocket can still fizzle before hitting. ----------------------------------------------- This is a line of text without any meaning. -----------------------------------------------
Xing Fey	Posted - 2010.01.16 11:35:00 - [299] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Braitai Originally by: Deva Blackfire In case of frigs you need web to get NORMAL level and 2 webs to counter ABing frig. This IS broken. This. It's especially broken on ships that have so few medslots - frigates. This. And the one ship who actually showed some promise of being able to use (waht I hoped to be a redesigend weapon system) was the Hookbill. But even that ship got messed up due to low PG and low CPU in the design. What on earth was teh designers thinking when they made that ship?? I mean, the slicer was turend into a fine ship, and I see some people liking comat (firetail is just outclassed in all respects to dramiel). So what went wrong with the missile frig? I have used rockets ebough to see that they underperform compared to other missile systems (granted, I don't have all 5, spec is "only" at 4, but supports are maxed). At least exp vel needs a huge boost! I would deem a slight dps boost to be in order as well. I think it was supposed to use standards, but they have problems of their own (esp fitting)
Grut The Protei	Posted - 2010.01.16 12:54:00 - [300] Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Tagami Wasp The problem with rockets is bigger than the rest of the missiles. It is possible for a target to outrun a rocket, which will fizzle. This needs to be fixed. How exactly do you think it can be fixed without re-defining the way Destiny handles missiles? There is currently no way of modifying missile velocity for rockets without ***ing something else up, particularly because of effective range, flight time, and initial velocity. A max skilled crow will shoot rockets @ 5kms a vengence @ 3.4 kms both for 3 seconds. The speeds to slow to stop approach / retreat / following effects and the flight times to short to cover speedup / orientation effects. I'd write it off as a bad job & let rockets instahit with an optimal of flightimespeed. Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know... Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought

Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.01.18 19:09:00 - [301] Because this is more important than Vindicator: FIX THA ROCKETS!!!!!!!!! ----------------------------------------------- This is a line of text without any meaning. -----------------------------------------------
Darcon Kylote Terminal Impact	Posted - 2010.01.20 15:35:00 - [302] K, so 1.1 is in the can. All efforts, redirect to rocket and AF fixes. GO GO GO!!!!! Uh, rite? -- Terminal Impact is recruiting PVPers for fun ops in lowsec/0.0/wormhole space. Visit our website or join ingame channel "the tict pub".
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.20 16:26:00 - [303] Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar. Stop asking for long overdue fixes. /sarcasm
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.01.20 19:28:00 - [304] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar. Stop asking for long overdue fixes. /sarcasm Vindicator 1 number changed (?) Affected ships: 1 Affected number of players: negligable Rockets 2 numbers needing change Affected ships: About 11 Affected number of players: ****loads. Yeah. _________________________________
2ofSpades	Posted - 2010.01.20 20:24:00 - [305] Vengeance gets less then 150dps with all level 5 skills where every other AF gets 200dps. Rockets need more base dmg. In EFT it takes 3 navy BCU's+2 dmg rigs for 190dps with all lvl5. Expl vel 126? standard missles 268? Help needed there also. Plz fix rockets
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.01.20 20:48:00 - [306] Originally by: 2ofSpades Vengeance gets less then 150dps with all level 5 skills where every other AF gets 200dps. Rockets need more base dmg. In EFT it takes 3 navy BCU's+2 dmg rigs for 190dps with all lvl5. Expl vel 126? standard missles 268? Help needed there also. Plz fix rockets Nah, they're too busy with ships a tiny handful of people will ever actually fly to give a **** about a weapon they built a dozen ships around using. _________________________________

CCP Abathur C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.20 21:01:00 - [307] Edited by: CCP Abathur on 20/01/2010 21:01:16 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar. I was gonna look into rockets until I was distracted by this amazing suggestion. Edit - Yes, it's in our backlog and not forgotten.

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.01.20 22:53:00 - [308] Originally by: CCP Abathur Edited by: CCP Abathur on 20/01/2010 21:01:16 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar. I was gonna look into rockets until I was distracted by this amazing suggestion. Edit - Yes, it's in our backlog and not forgotten. THERE IS HOPE. /me buys out every Hawk (and mining drone) in Jita ready to put them up at 60mil ISK. _________________________________
Silver Tongues	Posted - 2010.01.21 00:24:00 - [309] Originally by: CCP Abathur Edited by: CCP Abathur on 20/01/2010 21:01:16 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar. I was gonna look into rockets until I was distracted by this amazing suggestion. Edit - Yes, it's in our backlog and not forgotten. While this gives me hope (and a grin with the nice mock troll), I begin to wonder how full your backlog is and how long it will actually be before Rockets are taken a real look at by CCP.
2ofSpades	Posted - 2010.01.21 03:36:00 - [310] I think one of the main things that CCP would be thinking about that would become a problem is the affect on say maybe an already overpowered rifter now even more out of balance due to fitting this new bad azz rocket that does way more dps. So maybe while expl vel needs to be adj all around, dmg only needs to come up on some ships. If they really are working on it which they prob are along with the all the random stuff they get to fix, then let them do their thing. CCP says post 1.1, but they are still showing notice that its on the list at least. Updates come out like every month so it shouldnt be too much longer. People dont like to be told they are not doing their job when they are trying to finish it. A simple fix rockets, what you are planing to use them on and what you expect is nice to keep this thread up top saying that this is what people are intrested in. It doesnt let CCP forget that in a slew of other stuff.

Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.01.21 17:17:00 - [311] Some thoughts about what a rocket fix would consist of... Currently rockets require web and scrambler support to deal a meaningful % damage. Requiring a scrambler is fine - rocket platforms operate within scrambler range and would want to fit one anyway. The web requirement is an interesting one and deserves some comments. A turret frigate may find its damage mitigated by tracking and optimal issues. A web serves to restrict those issues; however, manual piloting can also serve to minimise that damage mitigation, by closing to optimal or by minimising transversal, as with web-lacking MSE Rifter. With rockets, however, that option is simply not there - absolute speed is the key, and hence a web is essential. Several points follow from this: Unless rocket explosion velocity is massively increased, a web will still be essential on a rocket platform, to apply good DPS, even before considering factors relating to range control. Question - what % damage to an unwebbed ABing frigate would be considered sufficient for the rocket platform to consider not fitting a web? Afterburners are relatively common on frigates, whether alone or part of a dual-prop configuration. Currently, an ABing Ishkur (sig 39 m, speed ~900 m/s) takes 44% damage from a rocket. To deal 75% damage, the rocket would need an explosion velocity of ~300 m/s (after TNP V). Even in this case, I suspect that a web would still be compulsory on a rocket platform, giving, in this case, 33% more applied damage and assisting with range control. It also follows that at any lower level of explosion velocity increase, a web is still essential. My conclusion here is that no realistic change to rocket explosion velocity will change the essential nature of a web on a rocket platform. This has important implications for the slot layouts and range of viable fits of rocket platforms. The Hawk, for example, simply does not have the medslots to support the propulsion mod, scrambler, web, shield booster implied by its off-racial shield boost bonus and the cap booster require to fuel it. However, it is generally accepted that rocket damage even when 100% damage is being dealt is too low. For example, a Malediction with max-skilled rockets does a pathetic 66 DPS maximum, and a rocket-Worm is arguably inferior to an MSE Ishkur. Increasing the explosion velocity alone will not change this - an increase in rocket base damage is required. A final thought relate to the ease of mitigation of rocket damage. An AB can halve the damage taken by an unwebbed frigate. While ABs need to mitigate some rocket damage to avoid being pointless, this halving is far too much for the current low-base-damage rockets. Ways of fixing this are to increase explosion velocity or base damage as mentioned, but decreasing rocket DRF would also reduce this degree of damage mitigation, and could serve as an alternative to changes in explosion velocity, which might otherwise prove a rather blunt tool.
Cobalt Sixty Caldari Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude	Posted - 2010.01.21 21:05:00 - [312] Originally by: Gypsio III - and a rocket-Worm is arguably inferior to an MSE Ishkur. While I agree that Rockets need to be looked at by CCP (Mostly because I want an incentive to fly a Vengeance other than "oh well, at least it has three gun turrets, too") is the above example really a fair comparison? I didn't think Faction is meant to match up to or excel against Tech II, rather to present something "different".
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.01.21 21:37:00 - [313] Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 21/01/2010 21:37:36 It's not empire faction, it's pirate. Pirate vessels are usually unique, but in case with Worm it can be directly compared with Ishkur - their 2 main differences are tank type and weapon system. As pirate frigate shouldn't have t2 'assault' resists and still should be better than t2 by some degree (i remember some post/devblog from ccp official mentioning that pirate ships are intended to be at this level) - imo worm should get superior dps (it can be bonus to drones or boosted rockets) and/or ability to fit good buffer tank (i doubt it can get more efficient active tank than ishkur).
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.01.21 21:50:00 - [314] Originally by: Cobalt Sixty Originally by: Gypsio III - and a rocket-Worm is arguably inferior to an MSE Ishkur. While I agree that Rockets need to be looked at by CCP (Mostly because I want an incentive to fly a Vengeance other than "oh well, at least it has three gun turrets, too") is the above example really a fair comparison? I didn't think Faction is meant to match up to or excel against Tech II, rather to present something "different". There's "different" and there's "hilariously inferior ship for 4x the cost". _________________________________
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.01.21 23:10:00 - [315] Originally by: Cobalt Sixty Originally by: Gypsio III - and a rocket-Worm is arguably inferior to an MSE Ishkur. While I agree that Rockets need to be looked at by CCP (Mostly because I want an incentive to fly a Vengeance other than "oh well, at least it has three gun turrets, too") is the above example really a fair comparison? I didn't think Faction is meant to match up to or excel against Tech II, rather to present something "different". While "something different" would certainly be nice - the Daredevil and the Dramiel have unique features in massive DPS and web, and super speeeeeeeed - the fact is that the current Worm is very similar to the MSE Ishkur. The Worm has an extra midslot, but worse resists, worse DPS, less PG, larger sig, about the same EHP... and that's about it. Given that similarity, it needs to be "better", otherwise what's the point of the bloody thing? But this is about the Worm really, not rockets as such.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.01.22 00:50:00 - [316] Originally by: Gypsio III Currently rockets require web and scrambler support to deal a meaningful % damage. Requiring a scrambler is fine - rocket platforms operate within scrambler range and would want to fit one anyway. Untrue. Crows, Worms and Hawks can shoot rockets from outside web range. In fact with javelins(yes yes - javs suck) all rocket ships can. Not only that but it's irrelevent when fighting anything with an AB, even a duel prop ceptor gets almost as much damage reduction from a t2 AB than from a MWD. The Dramiel, which is currently the fastest ship in the game, doesn't get a MWD sig bloom reduction. In this case a scrambler is almost irrelevant as far as damage applied goes.
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.01.22 06:57:00 - [317] Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 22/01/2010 06:58:23 The most often used on Dramiel is dual-prop fitting. Guess how much damage it would take while AB'ing under web with speed of 1k and sig 32m (36-37 with MSE).
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.01.22 08:42:00 - [318] Originally by: Braitai Originally by: Gypsio III Currently rockets require web and scrambler support to deal a meaningful % damage. Requiring a scrambler is fine - rocket platforms operate within scrambler range and would want to fit one anyway. Untrue. Crows, Worms and Hawks can shoot rockets from outside web range. In fact with javelins(yes yes - javs suck) all rocket ships can. Not only that but it's irrelevent when fighting anything with an AB, even a duel prop ceptor gets almost as much damage reduction from a t2 AB than from a MWD. The Dramiel, which is currently the fastest ship in the game, doesn't get a MWD sig bloom reduction. In this case a scrambler is almost irrelevant as far as damage applied goes. Given the speed penalty of Javs, the chance of the rocket platform remaining outside web range in a frigate fight is not great, making Jav use difficult. The AB comment - yes, that's obvious, thanks.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.01.26 17:49:00 - [319] bump ------------ Rails lack in dps within their engagement envelope, Blasters lack in the extend of their engagement envelope Occam's Razor: simplest= best solution
0racle Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers	Posted - 2010.01.27 13:48:00 - [320] Tbh wouldn't expect this to be fixed, i've experimented a little, but it is possible to get standard missiles on say, a Vengeance, all you need is AWU V, atleast then it wont take 6-8 rockets to take out a Hi-sec Belt Rat, on a T2 Fitted T2 Assault ship.

Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:42:00 - [321] I would just like to point out that some Amarr ships fit RAWKITS as well. There, that should be enough to get the Devs attention.
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.02.03 00:49:00 - [322] Thread was already halfway down the 1st page, up! ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told. ◕◡◕
Georn VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.03 14:20:00 - [323] Originally by: CCP Abathur Edited by: CCP Abathur on 20/01/2010 21:01:16 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar. I was gonna look into rockets until I was distracted by this amazing suggestion. Mining bonus for the Moros?? WTF! Give us Capital mining drones first!!11 You can simply take the Fighterbombers, let them land on asteroids and the little Pilots could work with Pick, Shovel and Laserdrill .. maybe trip about cables sometimes.. so we can have something to look at. The Cyclops is just shouting to harvest gas. well.. and look into rockets if you have some time. Thanks CCP Folks for handing us this amazing game that we enjoy so much we even write threadnougts of suggestions and complains.. It only shows we care. :) Keep it coming (c; ____________ nerf metagaming, boost fun
Sprilk	Posted - 2010.02.04 02:37:00 - [324] Originally by: CCP Abathur Edited by: CCP Abathur on 20/01/2010 21:01:16 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar. I was gonna look into rockets until I was distracted by this amazing suggestion. Edit - Yes, it's in our backlog and not forgotten. What i dont understand is why its not front and center at this point... rockets have been totaly broken forever and you know it... So, my theory goes there is a large fix in the works for missiles in general... or you would not be putting off the fairly simple fix (of change the damage and explosion velocity) updating the numbers cant be that hard..... so what are you really working on? whats in store for us missile users?
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.02.04 09:20:00 - [325] Originally by: Sprilk Originally by: CCP Abathur Edited by: CCP Abathur on 20/01/2010 21:01:16 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar. I was gonna look into rockets until I was distracted by this amazing suggestion. Edit - Yes, it's in our backlog and not forgotten. What i dont understand is why its not front and center at this point... rockets have been totaly broken forever and you know it... So, my theory goes there is a large fix in the works for missiles in general... or you would not be putting off the fairly simple fix (of change the damage and explosion velocity) updating the numbers cant be that hard..... so what are you really working on? whats in store for us missile users? The (over?)optimistic side of me thinks this may well be the case. The only real explanation for how long it's taking for a simple fix is that it isn't a simple fix and in fact multiple buffs and fundamental changes. But hey if it isn't, lateness aside I'd just be grateful for having an excuse to fly a Hawk or Vengeance. Or having my Crow fixed... or... ok I'm stopping now. _________________________________ Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes.StevieSG
Phantom Slave Universal Pest Exterminators	Posted - 2010.02.04 15:55:00 - [326] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington The (over?)optimistic side of me thinks this may well be the case. The only real explanation for how long it's taking for a simple fix is that it isn't a simple fix and in fact multiple buffs and fundamental changes. But hey if it isn't, lateness aside I'd just be grateful for having an excuse to fly a Hawk or Vengeance. Or having my Crow fixed... or... ok I'm stopping now. Doesn't necessarily have to be multiple buffs that is taking a while. It could be that they're changing rockets so they actually launch out of your ship in the direction of the target instead of a static direction, waisting precious flight time as it has to flip around and go back to the target. I'm hopeful at least.
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.02.04 22:34:00 - [327] Originally by: Darcon Kylote K, so 1.1 is in the can. All efforts, redirect to rocket and AF fixes. GO GO GO!!!!! Uh, rite? _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.02.08 01:03:00 - [328] Bump. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Vigaz	Posted - 2010.02.08 14:52:00 - [329] raw DPS is just one factor of a weapon but: Torp Raven has more dps than a rail Rokh? yes! HAM Cerberus has more dps than a rail Eagle? yes! Any Rocket frig has more dps than a rail Harpy? NO! I can leave with a weapon system that require me to use web/tp/whatever... (I'm missile user) but rocket base damage is just incredible low!
Major Trant 287 Marine Regiment	Posted - 2010.02.11 17:31:00 - [330] Missile / Rocket range is based on Flight Time x Speed. Yet people in this thread and others talk about, initial speed up time and if kiting the enemy how the Missile / Rocket is launched forward and then has to turn back. Surely these factors are just graphics. I can't imagine the difficulties of trying to calculate the launch speed up time range loss and the relative direction the firing ship is travelling and the loss of range while the missile turns around. I can't believe any programmer would have attempted to make such calculations without thinking 'oh it would be logical for the missile turret to spin to face the enemy like a gun turret' and he just wouldn't bother with launch speed up time. Instead he would surely use something simple like Flight Time x Speed? Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even bother considering the distance and direction the target moved before the Missile / Rocket arrived, nevermind the curvature of the missile path as it followed the target. Instead just took a snapshot at the firing time - yes target is in range, checkbox, hit is assured. So if anyone has any official data on what the actual calcualations are please post, but if you are just sprouting off what seems logical based on observing a crappy graphic without considering the enormaty of the calculation, please don't.

Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.02.11 18:11:00 - [331] Originally by: Major Trant Words Feel free to test it yourself, it's fairly straightforward.
Deva Blackfire Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.11 19:01:00 - [332] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Major Trant Words Feel free to test it yourself, it's fairly straightforward. This. Also i wonder isnt this about time CCP moved the thread to ships and modules? You know, this forums is for "ban xyz because he abc me on sisi".
Deva Blackfire Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.11 19:54:00 - [333] Actually i will doublepost and make that guy look like a fool. It will make me feel better :) Originally by: Major Trant Missile / Rocket range is based on Flight Time x Speed. My HAM missiles (maxskill = ~20km from speed x time) dont hit over 17km. Torps on raven (~30km) dont hit at 27km. So what were you saying? Quote: Yet people in this thread and others talk about, initial speed up time and if kiting the enemy how the Missile / Rocket is launched forward and then has to turn back. Surely these factors are just graphics. Surely you tested this. Otherwise you wouldnt be posting not proven data, yes? Quote: I can't imagine the difficulties of trying to calculate the launch speed up time range loss and the relative direction the firing ship is travelling and the loss of range while the missile turns around. I can't believe any programmer would have attempted to make such calculations without thinking 'oh it would be logical for the missile turret to spin to face the enemy like a gun turret' and he just wouldn't bother with launch speed up time. I think you might want to fire ze missiels again. Or at least fire them once as it shows you never used them. Quote: Instead he would surely use something simple like Flight Time x Speed? Or maybe he wouldnt? Quote: Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even bother considering the distance and direction the target moved before the Missile / Rocket arrived, nevermind the curvature of the missile path as it followed the target. Instead just took a snapshot at the firing time - yes target is in range, checkbox, hit is assured. And your theory gets broken as soon as smartbombs/bomber bombs enter the game and start killing missiles. Or as soon as target moves out of range and your missile "misses". Ofc anyone who actually used missiles AT LEAST ONCE will know this. Quote: So if anyone has any official data on what the actual calcualations are please post, but if you are just sprouting off what seems logical based on observing a crappy graphic without considering the enormaty of the calculation, please don't. I really hope you will try to make fool of yourself again. It was kinda amusing.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.02.11 21:34:00 - [334] Quote: Actually i will doublepost and make that guy look like a fool Mission accomplished. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.12 20:30:00 - [335] Hey, thank him for the free bump!! ------------ Railgun performance required fix: - +15% railgun damage modifier - +10% PG for Caldari railgun ships
Deva Blackfire Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.16 11:35:00 - [336] Please make my rockets do boom not splat
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.02.17 12:24:00 - [337] Five days and this thread will have been up for a whole year. Am I the only one thinking this is getting a bit ridiculous? _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.02.17 13:21:00 - [338] Not really. Fixing suckrilege took over 2 years...
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.17 13:28:00 - [339] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Five days and this thread will have been up for a whole year. Am I the only one thinking this is getting a bit ridiculous? Not really. The other missiles are mostly ok, tuning rockets would be a quick job for CCP. Also adjusting fitting for SML would be quick. Given proper time I would estimate 1 week for the fix to be tested and tried. Its as easy as launching a "Rocket test week" on Sisi if CCP want to really test it ;). It is kinda sad they get overlooked becuase they are "onlt a frigate weapons for a few selec frigs). As a matter of fact its a rather importent weapon system for thoose who are interested in frig comabt, like me (among other things). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.02.17 14:58:00 - [340] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 17/02/2010 15:06:15 Quote: It is kinda sad they get overlooked becuase they are "onlt a frigate weapons for a few selec frigs). As a matter of fact its a rather importent weapon system for thoose who are interested in frig comabt, like me (among other things). ... And a few destroyers. But that's beside the point. What they fail to see is that it's not just a few ships, it's (by my count) 11 ships of both tech 1 and 2 levels across frigate and destroyer size. Better start training for the Dramiel, seems that's what they want everyone and their mother to fly now. Edit: actually, let's add this up (did I miss any)? Ships with at least half their weapons devoted to launchers: Kestrel Breacher Inquisitor Merlin Tristan Flycatcher Heretic Malediction Crow Hawk Vengeance Plus those that happen to have extra weapon slots that comfortably accomodate a rocket launcher: Cormorant Harpy Wolf Jaguar Rifter But it would seem a certain faction battleship that a tiny percentage of the playerbase actually flies is more important than that tiny list. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.

Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.02.17 15:24:00 - [341] Wait a second. The Dramiel has a launcher slot. Maybe we could sexily rebrand this as a BOOST DRAMIEL thread?
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.02.17 16:06:00 - [342] I think the Rocket Fix will happen the same time they boost Assault Frigs, so in another year or two we will be all set!
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.02.17 17:03:00 - [343] Originally by: Gypsio III Wait a second. The Dramiel has a launcher slot. Maybe we could sexily rebrand this as a BOOST DRAMIEL thread? WHY THE DRAMIEL SHOULD BE BOOSTED - Last week, mine DIED due to insufficient rocket dps. Seriously! It did! They made me bleed my own blood! IN A DRAMIEL! Clearly this imbalance needs rectifying at its source - rocket dps! _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.02.17 17:50:00 - [344] Originally by: Meeko Atari I think the Rocket Fix will happen the same time they boost Assault Frigs never? ;p
De Guantanamo	Posted - 2010.02.18 04:32:00 - [345] hey CCP rockets are still broken
Aeternus IV	Posted - 2010.02.18 05:39:00 - [346] If rockets could be boosted, then the vengeance might actually be useful! Until then, I'll stick with a retri and hope that my partner(s) get the tackle. :/
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.02.18 10:20:00 - [347] Originally by: Aeternus IV If rockets could be boosted, then the vengeance might actually be useful! Until then, I'll stick with a retri and hope that my partner(s) get the tackle. :/ Really must suck having both assault frigates as utter fail =/ Hey at least you can stick lasers or ACs on the vengeance, Hawk only gets two turret slots. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.02.21 00:59:00 - [348] Also why is this on page 2? _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
De Guantanamo	Posted - 2010.02.21 04:20:00 - [349] weird I logged in today and rockets were still broken
Anah Karah Legio V Fidelus Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.02.22 10:21:00 - [350] HEY Has anyone noticed that rockets are still sht? HAPPY BIRTHDAY ROCKETS ARE STILL SHT THREAD \O/**

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.02.22 12:41:00 - [351] Originally by: Anah Karah HEY Has anyone noticed that rockets are still sht? HAPPY BIRTHDAY ROCKETS ARE STILL SHT THREAD \O/ Happy birthdy threadnought for hilariously easy to fix problem _________________________________ Originally by:** Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Xtover Suicide Kings	Posted - 2010.02.22 13:01:00 - [352] Edited by: Xtover on 22/02/2010 13:01:19 Originally by: Anah Karah HEY Has anyone noticed that rockets are still sht? HAPPY BIRTHDAY ROCKETS ARE STILL SHT THREAD \O/** there's no time to make a small adjustment to an established weapon!
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.02.22 13:12:00 - [353] Originally by: Anah Karah HEY Has anyone noticed that rockets are still sht? HAPPY BIRTHDAY ROCKETS ARE STILL SHT THREAD \O/** Cheers for another year! /owait
Cadinie	Posted - 2010.02.22 14:14:00 - [354] /thread archived for CCP luls. one year and no fix still? lol wow if they agree it is a problem, and is being looked into, that's kinda sad that they don't get it fixed after so long.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.22 23:33:00 - [355] BUT THE VINDICATOR IS MORE IMPORTANT Lulz. One more year, rolfkets. ------------ +15% to railguns' dmg modifier -reduce Spike optimal bonus to 70% +10% to Caldari railboats PG
Alphonse Diago	Posted - 2010.02.25 00:43:00 - [356] At some point you must start wondering if they're taking amusement in ignoring you. Like there's a big scoreboard keeping track of the best ccp trollings (mechanics) like this...and missions...low-sec....mining... Atleast tell us which dev has the high score!!!
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.02.25 23:34:00 - [357] Don't worry, this isn't the thread that has gone ignored by CCP by the longest. I point to the Flogging the Dead Horse POS thread (3-1/2 years), which is quite possibly the most player supported and longest running thread in forum history. But seriously, you promised a rocket fix after Dom 1.1 CCP! Don't make me come down there and whack you upside the head Gibbs style. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.02.26 06:42:00 - [358] Seriously, how long does it take to fix rockets? It's a very simple solution: 1) Set rocket explosion velocity and radius to the same as light missiles. 2) Double light missile damage and rocket damage. Problem solved in 30 seconds. Stop being lazy and do it. -----------
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.02.26 07:51:00 - [359] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Seriously, how long does it take to fix rockets? It's a very simple solution: 1) Set rocket explosion velocity and radius to the same as light missiles. 2) Double light missile damage and rocket damage. Problem solved in 30 seconds. Stop being lazy and do it. I agree with almost everything you say Merin, but not this time. I'm going to talk from my experience flying a malediction, I've never flown any other rocket boat but I suspect a lot of what I say here could easily translate to the others. Firstly, the ratio of EV/ER on rockets is almost as good as lights as it is, lights have a slightly easier time with fast targets but not by much. Secondly, as Faffywaffy has pointed out before (if you're reading this Faffy, I take back what I said about a dogfighting sader's ability to engage a combat malediction, yes you were right :) ), the fact that rockets don't have tracking problems at any range, their effective DPS is actually quite good when the user can dictate range and tranversal. http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=111125 http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=110955 http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=110892 http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=110088 The damage on the 'sader kills are wrong, KM's have been a bit buggy recently, both targets started on full HP's. When used correctly rockets aren't terrible, doubling their damage output while keeping their damage reduction stats essentially the same is definitely the wrong way to go about fixing them. Problems crop up when your opponent has speed mods. Since not only does this reduce the damage they take from rockets but it eliminates the advantage that rockets have to either out range, or out track your targets weapons. It's a bit of a double whammy, and why a combat malediction will generally either get completely owned, or finish a fight on full armour (which btw is what happened against in those 2 sader fights, the slicer fights were closer since I capped out at the end). Doubling rocket DPS while keeping their reduction stats the same would make it easier to fight things it can already beat, but it would still be unable to beat, say, a properly fit duel prop 'ranis, and other targets that currently own it. I'd be more inclined to take the other route, keep the damage the same but allow them to hit any target for full damage. This would allow fits that don't use webs (duel prop setups are better for dictating range/transversal). Rocket users would be able to fit their ships to effectively counter different situations. It would also allow Crow's and other ships that can fight from outside web range to hit their targets without sacrificing their range advantage. I don't think this would be overpowered considering the actual speed of rockets would still limit their effectiveness vs mwd'ing targets.
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2010.03.01 17:54:00 - [360] Originally by: Major Trant Missile / Rocket range is based on Flight Time x Speed. So if anyone has any official data on what the actual calcualations are please post, but if you are just sprouting off what seems logical based on observing a crappy graphic without considering the enormaty of the calculation, please don't. Major o/ No official data here, but it's pretty easy to check that it's not just speed x time. You can see it even in missions, if the target is moving towards you and you're at the edge of the theoretical missile range you hit, if it's moving away, you miss. You could argue that it's the same check, but done when the missile hits. But no.. If you orbit another ship, which also orbits you - if you tweak the distance until you get to be at the missile theorical range, you'll get lots of misses.

Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.03.02 14:36:00 - [361] Edited by: Amberlamps on 02/03/2010 14:35:45 Fix Roflkets please, or least give the rocket dependant ships the similar HP buff capital ships received... it may be a little more balanced then. Edit: I stole page 13!!
Mr Australia	Posted - 2010.03.02 14:51:00 - [362] For eve's sake fix this long broken weapon. PLEASE.
De Guantanamo	Posted - 2010.03.02 16:17:00 - [363] oh hey page 13 and a year later and rockets are..... not fixed hurrrrrrrrrrrr
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.03.02 21:54:00 - [364] Originally by: De Guantanamo oh hey page 13 and a year later and rockets are..... not fixed hurrrrrrrrrrrr I wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't a matter of TWO FREAKING NUMBERS. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.02 22:07:00 - [365] Hello CCP I just fitted ROCKETS to my Vindicator, but it is still terrible. BOOST VINDICATOR PLEASE!
Valator Uel Caldari D-Stress Ad Astra.	Posted - 2010.03.03 04:11:00 - [366] Rockets are not a priority, they are currently working on ingame calendars which is much much more important! Quote: Aya > Hostile tcf gang coming to h-pa Deva Blackfire > ships? Ralarina > Yes, in ships
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.03.03 09:03:00 - [367] Originally by: Gypsio III Hello CCP I just fitted ROCKETS to my Vindicator, but it is still terrible. BOOST VINDICATOR PLEASE! I loled _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Xtover Suicide Kings	Posted - 2010.03.05 13:54:00 - [368] I want to use me rockets again!
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.07 21:40:00 - [369] Originally by: Gypsio III Hello CCP I just fitted ROCKETS to my Vindicator, but it is still terrible. BOOST VINDICATOR PLEASE! /wins ------------ +15% to railguns' dmg modifier -reduce Spike optimal bonus to 70% +10% to Caldari railboats PG
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2010.03.08 03:30:00 - [370] Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 08/03/2010 03:31:02 would rather like to see a DamageReductionFactor of 2..2.25 : frigs don't have room to fit webs and/or painters anyway do (slightly) similar to HAMs both are short range weapons and deserve better "tracking" and damage against faster moving ships. no, explosion velocity does not really correspond to tracking - it only determines how "long" you deal full (explo.raduis/sig) damage. and/or nerf heavy missiles - them being loooong-range weapons after all. - putting the gist back into logistics

Rip Striker	Posted - 2010.03.08 06:56:00 - [371] tl;dr Has CCP said anyting about fixing rockets?
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.03.08 07:22:00 - [372] Originally by: Rip Striker tl;dr Has CCP said anyting about fixing rockets? Gist of it: "we're aware they suck, but don't have time to change them" and something vague about getting fixed at the same time as AFs. I wouldn't hold your breath. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.03.09 23:02:00 - [373] I doubt we'll see a rocket fix anytime soon. I quote Abathar from the Flogging the Dead Horse POS thread 2-1/2 years ago: Quote: This thread has been seen and looked over several times by the Dev team. It's a very bold and interesting proposal. However any change like this would require a massive amount of development in both programming and artwork. It's not something that could happen overnight. Having said that, we're well aware of the current state of starbase warfare and it's one of our top post-Trinity priorities for overhaul. We've had 4(soon to be 5) expansions since then and what have we seen? Nothing. We got a crappy new bubble in Apocrypha that mainly just crashed the client. I'd say we might get a rocket fix in the winter 2012 expansion, just in time for the end of the world. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Nuke Skywalker	Posted - 2010.03.10 16:15:00 - [374] light missiles have about 170m/s explosion speed, rockets have 85m/s. With skills and 3 tier 1 explosion speed rig, it is possible to get rocket explosion speed to about 200m/s. You need 3 rigs to make them work, but on the other hand, using light missiles, you rarely can fit even the 2 dmg rigs cuz of their high cpu and pg demands. I think rockets can be viable.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.03.10 16:53:00 - [375] Originally by: Nuke Skywalker light missiles have about 170m/s explosion speed, rockets have 85m/s. With skills and 3 tier 1 explosion speed rig, it is possible to get rocket explosion speed to about 200m/s. You need 3 rigs to make them work, but on the other hand, using light missiles, you rarely can fit even the 2 dmg rigs cuz of their high cpu and pg demands. I think rockets can be viable. Awesome! Owait... heretic 2 rigs. Malediction 2 rigs. Vengeance 2 rigs. Damn, still not viable.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.03.11 00:21:00 - [376] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Nuke Skywalker light missiles have about 170m/s explosion speed, rockets have 85m/s. With skills and 3 tier 1 explosion speed rig, it is possible to get rocket explosion speed to about 200m/s. You need 3 rigs to make them work, but on the other hand, using light missiles, you rarely can fit even the 2 dmg rigs cuz of their high cpu and pg demands. I think rockets can be viable. Awesome! Owait... heretic 2 rigs. Malediction 2 rigs. Vengeance 2 rigs. Damn, still not viable. Yep, a BLA+damage rig give more damage (even against fast targets) than 2 flare rigs. Flare rigs are not a solution. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.03.11 01:33:00 - [377] Originally by: Braitai Yep, a BLA+damage rig give more damage (even against fast targets) than 2 flare rigs. Flare rigs are not a solution. To add to this: flare rigs shouldn't be a solution. Can you imagine the uproar there would be if any of the turret weapons needed 3 tracking rigs just to hit stuff their size? The idea of having to use flare rigs is a joke. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.03.11 02:27:00 - [378] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington To add to this: flare rigs shouldn't be a solution. Can you imagine the uproar there would be if any of the turret weapons needed 3 tracking rigs just to hit stuff their size? The idea of having to use flare rigs is a joke. Actually, as I've pointed out before, pulse lasers DO have trouble hitting targets their own size. http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=113916 This was a close fight, once again though it came down to the fact that the slicer had a very hard time breaking my maledictions tank due to the fact that I was orbiting him at 500m, and he capped out first (on a related note, I had to reload mid fight, rocket clip size is stupidly small.) Even scrammed there was enough transversal to drop his DPS enough for me to tank. What if we both had AB's though? he'd be taking 40-50% less damage, that's just stupid considering how common duel prop fits are these days. Making flare rigs an adequate replacement for a web is not such a bad solution, but it's silly that an AB reduces rocket dps by such a huge amount, and you shouldn't need both to counter one (not that having both counters one now). CCP intended to make AB's useful, and they succeeded. AB's are useful, but not at the expense of a MWD (IMO, I guess an AB only fit has some use in lowsec/FW, but I really don't like undocking without a MWD). Duel prop fits work, but against rockets they work a little too well. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Nuke Skywalker	Posted - 2010.03.11 06:15:00 - [379] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Nuke Skywalker light missiles have about 170m/s explosion speed, rockets have 85m/s. With skills and 3 tier 1 explosion speed rig, it is possible to get rocket explosion speed to about 200m/s. You need 3 rigs to make them work, but on the other hand, using light missiles, you rarely can fit even the 2 dmg rigs cuz of their high cpu and pg demands. I think rockets can be viable. Awesome! Owait... heretic 2 rigs. Malediction 2 rigs. Vengeance 2 rigs. Damn, still not viable. Well, Heretic gets 25% explosion speed bonus from skills. That is only 5% less than 3 rigs would give you. then fit 2 dmg rigs. Is the Heretic only viable rocket ship then?
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:23:00 - [380] Originally by: Nuke Skywalker Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Nuke Skywalker light missiles have about 170m/s explosion speed, rockets have 85m/s. With skills and 3 tier 1 explosion speed rig, it is possible to get rocket explosion speed to about 200m/s. You need 3 rigs to make them work, but on the other hand, using light missiles, you rarely can fit even the 2 dmg rigs cuz of their high cpu and pg demands. I think rockets can be viable. Awesome! Owait... heretic 2 rigs. Malediction 2 rigs. Vengeance 2 rigs. Damn, still not viable. Well, Heretic gets 25% explosion speed bonus from skills. That is only 5% less than 3 rigs would give you. then fit 2 dmg rigs. Is the Heretic only viable rocket ship then? If you didnt understand sarcasm here is translation: Quote: To add to this: flare rigs shouldn't be a solution. Can you imagine the uproar there would be if any of the turret weapons needed 3 tracking rigs just to hit stuff their size? The idea of having to use flare rigs is a joke. I dont care if roflkets become viable after using 3 flare rigs + 4 webs. Put them on level of other small guns. Hell - put them on level of other MISSILES. All missiles need only scrambler to damage MWD targets - no weeb is needed. Web is just a counter for AB. In case of rockets not only web is mandatory (or flares, 3 of which give similiar results to web) but to engage AB ship you need 2 webs (or flares+web). Always one step behind.

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.03.12 01:22:00 - [381] Back to page 1. This is an ideal time to get some quick changes onto Sisi for early testing. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Mohenna Caldari Knights of the Dark	Posted - 2010.03.12 13:53:00 - [382] My 2 meager CN hookbill bpcs are still sleeping. It would be such a nice ship, but thanks to how sucky rockets are, it's the one faction frig that has actually been made worse by the upgrade to faction ships... BTW how long does a thread need to be active to qualify for the title of dead horse? We're well over one year, I just noticed, having the first post of a thread under the reply text area makes me shiver: *Posted - 22/02/2009 17:20:00*
Baillif Red Mist Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.13 07:26:00 - [383] Fix the damned rockets
Carla Messer	Posted - 2010.03.13 07:28:00 - [384] Fail rockets make baby space Jesus cry
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.03.13 23:01:00 - [385] Back to the top again. Not letting them forget. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.03.14 07:29:00 - [386] Maybe planetary interaction will fix the rockets. ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told. ◕◡◕
Cordin Hamir	Posted - 2010.03.14 11:10:00 - [387] Fixes were 'promised' for assault ships and rockets in this patch - do CCP remember or is this going to be swept under the carpet again?
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Toy Factory Exalted.	Posted - 2010.03.14 11:26:00 - [388] My wild guess is that they fix rockets after they've fixed all known bugs still lingering around from 2003 or something.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.03.14 11:31:00 - [389] Originally by: Cordin Hamir Fixes were 'promised' for assault ships and rockets in this patch - do CCP remember or is this going to be swept under the carpet again? They never promised it for this patch specifically, just "sometime after Dominion 1.1" or whatever the patch number was. So I'm not holding out much hope for a fix this expansion. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Thao Bodh	Posted - 2010.03.17 03:23:00 - [390] BUMP for great justice

Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.03.19 14:37:00 - [391] last i heard rockets STILL suck ... also logging onto forums sucks too. Yay for long character names.
Henri Rearden Gallente Mantic Mining Inc	Posted - 2010.03.19 16:09:00 - [392] Edited by: Henri Rearden on 19/03/2010 16:11:28 CCP, I sincerely ask that you address this issue in the Tyrannis expansion if at all possible. I fly primarily Amarr ships and would desperately like to use rockets once I get an assault frigate because I could change damage types, but I have tried rockets and they ARE terrible. I didn't just take the word of this thread, I went and tried. I understand that you intend for missile weapons to be lower DPS to compensate for their "always hits" quality, but the effective DPS on frigate-sized targets is quite dismal - moreso than justified, I believe. Add into the equation the problems with effective range at speed and you have a weapon system that is pretty worthless in PVP. BUT - at this point I'd settle for rockets that were adequate for PVE, so you could even just increase the effective DPS and leave the range unchanged if it was too much trouble! It wouldn't require rebalancing of other weapons because rockets are the only ones this far out of whack. I'm not going to tell you what attribute to change, I'm sure you understand your own game mechanics, but please make it so rockets are worth fitting. Thanks for reading, I appreciate that you try to take our suggestions into account, even if we seem, collectively, to be impossible to please. :-) P.S. Un-nerfing rockets would be a small mineral-sink too, since the rate of rocket module, ship, and ammo production would increase! P.P.S. If you feel there is a legitimate reason for leaving rockets as they are and have examples of how to make rockets useful without changes, I would gladly learn!
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2010.03.19 16:14:00 - [393] CCP main priority should be to revisit their concept of priorities. And figure that fixing a lot of small annoying stuff brings up MUCH better feeling from the community than whatever gigantic stuff you might add in an expansion. Check the dominion expansion. THe only thing that really made players happy was the projectile changes. If was not for that the expansion would be a wrecking failure. FIXING rockets, AF changes, T2 short range ammo remade, stupidities on some t3 subsystems, Faction warfare objectives (and makign pvp give you real LP rewards somehow) stupidities lefts from badly done nerfs in past (like the Extreme stupidity of makign MWD boost and speed boost hardwirings be on same slot.. resultign on one of the hardwirings being 100% as useless as if it was removed from game. Solve this type of stuff and you shall have lots of respect and positive feedback.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.03.19 16:25:00 - [394] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 20/03/2010 11:08:02 Ships fixed or significantly boosted by a simple rocket buff: (to varying extents, obviously) 3 launchers+: (Primary weapon) Hawk Vengeance Malediction Crow Kestrel Breacher (lol, yeah, I know...) Inquisitor Flycatcher Heretic Worm (easily the most lolworthy pirate frigate right now) Caldari Navy Hookbill Split weapons (half and half rockets/guns) Merlin Tristan Eris Extra launcher high slot (meh) Rifter Republic fleet Firetail Harpy Cormorant Thrasher Claw Stiletto Raptor Enyo Jaguar Wolf VINDICATOR DRAMIEL BECAUSE OF TANKY SHUTTLE FALCON Please change two numbers this expansion and make twenty-six ships vastly more viable. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.03.19 18:00:00 - [395] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/03/2010 18:01:02 Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 19/03/2010 16:31:13 Ships fixed or significantly boosted by a simple rocket buff: (to varying extents, obviously) 3 launchers+: (Primary weapon) Hawk Vengeance Malediction Crow Kestrel Breacher (lol, yeah, I know...) Inquisitor Flycatcher Heretic Worm (easily the most lolworthy pirate frigate right now) Caldari Navy Hookbill Split weapons (half and half rockets/guns) Merlin Tristan Eris Extra launcher high slot (meh) Rifter Republic fleet Firetail Harpy Cormorant Thrasher Claw Stiletto Raptor Enyo Jaguar Wolf VINDICATOR Please change two numbers this expansion and make a dozen ships vastly more viable. You forgot dramiel.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.03.19 23:38:00 - [396] Originally by: Deva Blackfire You forgot dramiel. Fix'd _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Companion Trollin You are going too fast	Posted - 2010.03.20 07:15:00 - [397] Derp, ****ty rockets make me a sad panda.
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.03.21 10:29:00 - [398] I'm looking for page 1, can you help? ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told. ◕◡◕
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.03.22 20:43:00 - [399] Rawkits? _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.03.24 13:13:00 - [400] They still appear to be broken _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.

Borgh Brainbasher Path of Now and Forever	Posted - 2010.03.26 09:38:00 - [401] back to the top you go, shoo! I want to roflpwn people in my breacher and currently I can't, all because of rockets. --- Warning: You are on the pvp only server.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.03.26 14:45:00 - [402] "That's Amazing!" Roflket Fact of the Week, #1. The premier rocket gank ship is (probably?) the Kestrel. With max skills, the four Roflket IIs can deal 105 kinetic DPS (94 DPS including reloads). However, this is not enough DPS to break the passive shield recharge on a DC-MSE shield-buffered Dramiel travelling at 2100 m/s on afterburner. That's Amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GRF Guerilla	Posted - 2010.03.26 15:19:00 - [403] Originally by: Great Artista I'm looking for page 1, can you help? Ya, Just head straight down this road until you reach the old bakery and take a left. Then walk three blocks down and it should be on your right, can't miss it. Oh and watch out for the local Troll, he can be an @ss sometimes. hope that helps
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2010.03.27 03:33:00 - [404] Can I please have a chance to undock my Vengeance and not have a "LOL get a Retribution" comments in local? Eh? CCP? -- Thanks CCP for cu
HeliosGal Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.27 04:50:00 - [405] lol vengence Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00
Leisen	Posted - 2010.03.27 09:24:00 - [406] Originally by: Seishi Maru CCP main priority should be to revisit their concept of priorities. And figure that fixing a lot of small annoying stuff brings up MUCH better feeling from the community than whatever gigantic stuff you might add in an expansion. This.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.03.27 11:49:00 - [407] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 27/03/2010 11:49:50 Originally by: Tonto Auri Can I please have a chance to undock my Vengeance and not have a "LOL get a Retribution" comments in local? Eh? CCP? Who the hell says get a retri? At least the Vengeance can tackle and works ok... when you fit guns to it. Quote: Oh and watch out for the local Troll, he can be an @ss sometimes. Also I take exception to this. I'm an @ss all the time. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.03.30 12:47:00 - [408] Back to the top! Fix plz _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2010.03.31 13:58:00 - [409] Edited by: Yankunytjatjara on 31/03/2010 13:58:12 Originally by: Gypsio III "That's Amazing!" Roflket Fact of the Week, #1. A kestrel v dramiel fight can be imagined! ;p
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.04.01 20:00:00 - [410] So we can get any word from CCP if a rocket fix is even being looked at for Tyranis? _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.02 11:30:00 - [411] Originally by: Krennel Darius So we can get any word from CCP if a rocket fix is even being looked at for Tyranis? Current rumours are that they're being looked at for the "cold day in hell" expansion coming in 2020. Dramiels and Vindicators on the other hand will be seeing some significant buffs very soon. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Cordin Hamir	Posted - 2010.04.02 13:30:00 - [412] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: Krennel Darius So we can get any word from CCP if a rocket fix is even being looked at for Tyranis? Current rumours are that they're being looked at for the "cold day in hell" expansion coming in 2020. Dramiels and Vindicators on the other hand will be seeing some significant buffs very soon. Well if that is true at least they will be fixed before WiS is released.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.03 19:06:00 - [413] Fix please. I'd quite like Caldari to have a decent interceptor. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.04.04 00:29:00 - [414] Laser malediction is cool and everything, but could you then give its laser bonuses back? ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told. ◕◡◕
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2010.04.04 01:51:00 - [415] Originally by: Great Artista Laser malediction is cool and everything, but could you then give its laser bonuses back? Use Crusader. -- Thanks CCP for cu
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.04.04 03:56:00 - [416] Originally by: Tonto Auri Originally by: Great Artista Laser malediction is cool and everything, but could you then give its laser bonuses back? Use Crusader. Both have their roles. ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told. ◕◡◕
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2010.04.04 10:55:00 - [417] Originally by: Great Artista Originally by: Tonto Auri Originally by: Great Artista Laser malediction is cool and everything, but could you then give its laser bonuses back? Use Crusader. Both have their roles. Laser bonuses already given to Carthum Conglomerate ship. Khanid ship have rocket bonuses. -- Thanks CCP for cu
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.04 11:51:00 - [418] Originally by: Tonto Auri Originally by: Great Artista Originally by: Tonto Auri Originally by: Great Artista Laser malediction is cool and everything, but could you then give its laser bonuses back? Use Crusader. Both have their roles. Laser bonuses already given to Carthum Conglomerate ship. Khanid ship have rocket bonuses. But as CCP hates rockets too much to change 2 numbers they may as well just remove them and give the ships that use them a bonus to something that isn't a waste of database space. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.04.04 22:50:00 - [419] Roflkets and assault frigate bonuses... Two simple changes I was expecting for Dominion 1.1 however an expansion later we still have no word on these fixes. The hawk is the most butthurt ship on Eve. Not only can it realistically only fit a fail weapon system being roflkets it also is considerably nerfed not having a second bonus. Perhaps that second bonus could save the Hawk from utter destruction if the roflket doesnt get fixed. However being a Caldari pilot, roflkets are really necessary.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.05 10:38:00 - [420] Its CCPs way of doing things. Quantum Rise (i think) - industry expansion that gave us WHOLE Orca to play with. Awesome! I wouldnt be surprised at all if PI got shafted and not deployed in Tyrannis. Not as if i care about PI in 1st place.

Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.04.05 18:49:00 - [421] Edited by: Krennel Darius on 05/04/2010 20:08:18 So I was playing with a fit for my Hawk, and no matter what I did I couldn't get it to break 130 dps, unless I added faction gear that cost 150x more than the ship is worth. Even then, I still couldn't break 135. The Vengeance however is ok on DPS with 176, but of course you can't armor tank or put anything in the mid slots. But if you do want to armor tank or put anything in the mid slots, good luck breaking 110 dps. If you could CCP, please enlighten me on how you consider this balanced with all of the other assault ships that do 170-220 dps? Off topic: So how do you guys think we're gonna keep this thread alive now that we're trolls for trying to get CCP to fix something that obviously needs fixed? Edit: Page 15 and still no fix. Woot! _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.05 21:42:00 - [422] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 05/04/2010 21:44:40 Yeah honestly this is well beyond a joke now. Their claim that there is no time for it would be somewhat credible... if not for the fact they fixed one number on the Vindicator shortly before that patch was implemented. They can do that to one rarely flown faction ship, but they can't tweak 2 numbers fixing/buffing dozens of lackluster ships in the process. Oh well, forcing people to cross train = balance amirite? It would even be mitigated somewhat if they hadn't knowingly built entire ships around using rockets. Even the Hookbill which was reworked very recently is obviously built to use rockets as shown by the fact the grid/CPU they gave it are too ** to mount a proper standard missile fit. _________________________________ Originally by:** Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.07 16:15:00 - [423] bump _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.04.08 13:17:00 - [424] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington only 2 are actually assault frigates.[/rant] It would make sense for them to buff rockets prior to the AF changes, so they can refine their balance first. Not that I expect that to happen. I started playing this game about 3 months prior to QR. Back then in the nano age, rockets were fine. They were the first t2 weapon I trained for. Completed training about 2 weeks before QR came out, never got to use them in pvp before they got nerfed. You can imagine how peeved I was. One of the things that appealed to me about EVE was the fact that it had been around for so long, I figured the designers must have a fair understanding of game balance queue laughter. For the most part I think the game is better now than it was when I started, but glaringly obvious balance issues, like the current state of rockets does add a serious WTF factor when you consider how long it's taking them to fix it. Rockets aren't as completely useless as people seem to think they are, but afterburners and drones can be a problem for them. Both low DPS and travel time are weaknesses, the fact that they require a web (or two) to be usable makes them a little too situational. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Blafam Repo Industries	Posted - 2010.04.09 04:02:00 - [425] Originally by: Deva Blackfire So... SiSiPi. You boosted Titans (300ish in EVE), Motherships (2000?), Vindicator (1000?). And Rockets which can be used by tens thousand ships (maleds, vengs, heretics, hawks, crows and supplementary weapon systems on many other frig sized hulls) are still crap. Maybe we should start dropping random propositions like "boost rocked damage by 200% and their range to 40km" in hopes we get at least 1/4 of it? Seriously fix them. Rockets have been broken much longer than all those ships above and need WAY more help yet they are being ignored. Rockets have been broken before those ships even existed, lol.
Anah Karah Legio V Fidelus Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.09 07:17:00 - [426] i wonder how long this thread will need to be before something is done about it? Most people who have posted in here will probably stuck in supercarriers before anything actually gets done about it... supercarriers without missile hardpoints for the beautiful newly revamped rockets :( ohwell...
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.10 22:24:00 - [427] Hi CCP. You forgot to fix rockets.
Curandil Masoole	Posted - 2010.04.11 18:16:00 - [428] Please fix rockets so i can fly my super sexy Vengeance with confidence CCP
Seishi Maru 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2010.04.12 16:02:00 - [429] OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!!! (ok each day someone repeat that please.. until it becomes a lie)
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.04.12 23:14:00 - [430] Originally by: Anah Karah i wonder how long this thread will need to be before something is done about it? Most people who have posted in here will probably stuck in supercarriers before anything actually gets done about it... supercarriers without missile hardpoints for the beautiful newly revamped rockets :( ohwell... I can already fly a supercarrier, and rockets were not fixed for the entire year I trained for them, and the 3 years before that. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris

jaimelespepito	Posted - 2010.04.13 06:32:00 - [431] OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!!!
Illwill Bill Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2010.04.13 17:16:00 - [432] Boost rockets, please! I need to be able to solo Slashers in my Condor.
Kurunto Nictus Astartes	Posted - 2010.04.13 22:10:00 - [433] OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!!!
Cpt Jagermeister Aliastra	Posted - 2010.04.14 06:46:00 - [434] I wonder what takes longer, fixing rockets or posting this.... I still think ccp is trolling us with this. I predict the rifter will be turned into a drone boat before this gets taken care of. No seriously **** rockets lets make the rifter a drone boat, it does seem like a more likely possibility at this point.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.14 09:34:00 - [435] Well CCP is fixing HUGE ISSUE WITH GAME right now. Deep safes. Stuff that is used more-less by same amount of people that fly vindicators. But rockets... naah, who cares about one of most widespread weapon system in game.
Caroline Nikon	Posted - 2010.04.14 10:58:00 - [436] OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!!!
Tamahra Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch TriMark Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.14 18:01:00 - [437] did they fix the suckets already?
Assegai Developments	Posted - 2010.04.14 19:11:00 - [438] honestly...... why such a long thread on rockets? i mean no small weapons are really good enough to be called anywhere near serious damage. it's not like if these are buffed a little that everyone will switch from their cruisers, BCs, BS and HACs to little frigates with measly damage.
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.04.14 19:23:00 - [439] Originally by: Assegai Developments honestly...... why such a long thread on rockets? i mean no small weapons are really good enough to be called anywhere near serious damage. it's not like if these are buffed a little that everyone will switch from their cruisers, BCs, BS and HACs to little frigates with measly damage. Its more for the fact that its a broken weapon. No, not everyone uses them, nor will anyone hop off the gun/larger ship bandwagon to use da rockets, but those of us that do use them would like them to be fixed so we can use them more effectively. And as the masterful Duchess Starbuckington has pointed out multiple times, rockets can be used on, and affect a couple dozen ships. So, to have a weapon that can be used on so many ships and is nevertheless still broken after a year, and hundreds of players petitioning to have them fixed, is downright criminal. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.14 21:34:00 - [440] Quote: honestly...... why such a long thread on rockets? i mean no small weapons are really good enough to be called anywhere near serious damage. it's not like if these are buffed a little that everyone will switch from their cruisers, BCs, BS and HACs to little frigates with measly damage. I'm sorry, who said anything about making HAC pilots fly frigates? If anything it's about making frigate pilots fly more frigates. It's a buff to diversity: plain and simple. The Hawk and the Harpy should be different but equal, not one vastly and hilariously superior to the other. The choice of interceptor for Caldari should not be "cross train". The Amarr should not have a choice of "fit the vengeance with guns" and "fly a 1 mid AF". The list goes on and on. Would I be writing posts directly ranting at CCP and bumping this back to page 1 if it was a difficult fix to do? Of course not: but it is. It's an incredibly easy weapon to sort out that would have a far reaching impact on ship diversity: and yet it is completely ignored for vaguer and vaguer reasons (if any are given at all). For why those reasons are complete fail, read up on this page. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.

C Melindy Canucks Hockey Stick Research and Development	Posted - 2010.04.14 21:42:00 - [441] OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!!!
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2010.04.14 21:47:00 - [442] Originally by: Assegai Developments honestly...... why such a long thread on rockets? i mean no small weapons are really good enough to be called anywhere near serious damage. it's not like if these are buffed a little that everyone will switch from their cruisers, BCs, BS and HACs to little frigates with measly damage. What you mean "cruiser"? What is that? And if 200-300 DPS is "measly", well, what to say about battleships? -- Thanks CCP for cu
Number 17 Caldari COLD-Wing	Posted - 2010.04.14 23:47:00 - [443] As i said countless times, at least increase the charge load on launchers, NOW. Its ridiculous having to reload in mid combat once on a ceptor (it takes about 200 rockets in a dual dmg rig fitted malediction to kill a ranis, 40x3= 120... 1 reload), and about 3 times in a hawk to kill another AF, 3 times!!! thats 30 seconds you are not shooting. ROCKETS LAUNCHERS NEED THEIR LOAD INCREASED TO 80 CHARGES at least !!!! by god, small AC and Hybrids carry up to 200 charges. Do this now, and worry about the cruiser explo velocity on rockets later.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.15 00:15:00 - [444] Oh now you've done it. They'll increase the capacity to 400 and walk away saying "job done". _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Henri Rearden Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.04.15 00:24:00 - [445] Just checking to see if they've fixed... eh, crap, rockets still suck. I watched the keynote from FF2009 last week and thought maybe the less new stuff/more fixes part of the "Excellence" theme might include rockets. I suppose I might be pessimistic... maybe they're going to readjust assault frigates in Tyrannis when they introduce T3 frigates, and rockets will be fixed along with them. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
Pater Peccavi Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.04.15 01:33:00 - [446] OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!!! _________ Originally by: CCP Zymurgist You have always had permission to kill anyone in game you see fit to lose a ship! My name is Pater!
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.04.15 02:00:00 - [447] I have accepted that rockets and assault frigs will never be fixed :(
Zar Terra	Posted - 2010.04.15 02:40:00 - [448] Fixed yet? ....wait, no. Still suck. Originally by: Zar Terra Human Society operates on a single fundamental and unconscious rule: Creation Through Destruction. Sig picture removed, needs to be EVE related. Zymurgist
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.15 07:52:00 - [449] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Oh now you've done it. They'll increase the capacity to 400 and walk away saying "job done". According to CCPs "fixing by small steps" it will be 10%. You will need to wait 1,5 year for next step. And why this doesnt surprise me at ALL? Remember - it took them over 2 years to fix sacrilege.
Warezmy Carr Gallente People with Guns Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.04.15 16:15:00 - [450] hopes I can has fixed rockets? checks reality No, I can not has fixed rockets. C'mon CCP. Some of my favorite ships in the game are rocket-armed ... or they would be if rockets did decent damage to small moving targets. Weren't rockets designed to be mounted on frigate-size ships and used against frigate-size ships? As it is now, I have to mount two Flare Catalyst rigs on my Maledictions to get even close to the base damage rockets should be doing. Hell, the single autocannon I have mounted as a supplementary weapon system often does more damage than the three rocket launchers... That's not just bad, CCP. That's terrible. Fix it! -- Man With The Plan, Starbase Setter-Upper, Doesn't Like Bunnies

Empire Wolf	Posted - 2010.04.15 16:37:00 - [451] rockets need a buff they are currently useless
Killmeded	Posted - 2010.04.15 16:49:00 - [452] http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1113974 another thread with this topic
dtyk	Posted - 2010.04.15 17:26:00 - [453] CCP, this is an order: fix rockets.
triafrenum	Posted - 2010.04.15 18:11:00 - [454] +1 for fixing rockets
Flitterby	Posted - 2010.04.15 18:27:00 - [455] Edited by: Flitterby on 15/04/2010 18:27:38 Are you guys serious? Buff the one weapon that can be fired while cloaked???
NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2010.04.15 20:54:00 - [456] 2003 called, it wants its internet meme back.
Leon 026 Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.04.15 21:34:00 - [457] I love the excuse of "but rockets dont need tracking!!11" to not get them fixed.
Kurunto Nictus Astartes	Posted - 2010.04.15 22:53:00 - [458] OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!!!
Bomberlocks Minmatar Star Bombers	Posted - 2010.04.15 23:47:00 - [459] Hi CCP, saw the volcano in Iceland on the news. We said we want "hot rockets", not "hot rocks".
Anastasiya Makalov Tools Of The Trade Southern Connection	Posted - 2010.04.16 00:26:00 - [460] Originally by: NoLimit Soldier 2003 called, it wants its internet meme back. master p called. he wants his lyrics back.

Hans Jagerblitzen Hoplite Brigade	Posted - 2010.04.16 00:58:00 - [461] I too wish to voice a request for rockets to be addressed. As it has been stated above, as many as 26 ships stand to be altered from a rocket fix. Perhaps this is the reason CCP has hesitated to quickly rush to a system that breaks that many ships in the other direction, I don't blame them for being cautious. However, it would be great to either see a rocket fix, or an explanation about how rockets are intended to be used for maximum effect, or an explanation as to when to expect any changes. The only way this will happen is if we continue to let our desires known!! Keep putting up your "X" for rockets guys....
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.04.16 05:07:00 - [462] This seriously needs to be fixed. They essentially don't work. The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Allaera Caldari Avatar Dynasty THE-FEDERATION	Posted - 2010.04.16 06:10:00 - [463] OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!!!
HeWhoLikesGuns Minmatar SmokingGuns Corp	Posted - 2010.04.16 10:14:00 - [464] +1 - fix rockets now. Another example for your reading pleasure: the other day I had a fight with this vengeance. He was rocket fit, while I was in a vengeance too, but ac fit. While the unbonused ac dmg out put was higher and stable, I once again was amazed, how drastic his damage decreased with me orbiting with a whooping 300m/s instead of not moving. I mean thatÆs just hilarious to use frig sized, short range weapons and not hitting frigs. Even 2 flare rigs only marginally improve this situation. ItÆs just sad.
Seishi Maru 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2010.04.16 15:19:00 - [465] OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!!!
Rath Kelbore The Six-Pack Syndicate	Posted - 2010.04.16 18:53:00 - [466] Fix them plz
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.04.16 19:28:00 - [467] Originally by: Bomberlocks Hi CCP, saw the volcano in Iceland on the news. We said we want "hot rockets", not "hot rocks". I loled BTW, can you fix rockets CCP? Pretty please? _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Vikarion Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2010.04.17 03:01:00 - [468] Plz fix rockets. Plz?
Takashi Setsu	Posted - 2010.04.17 05:34:00 - [469] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Hi CCP. You forgot to fix rockets. Have you ever posted in a thread you're not *****ing in?
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.04.17 19:36:00 - [470] OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!!! _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris

Gaia Thorn Everyday Discipline	Posted - 2010.04.17 20:51:00 - [471] Just for once do what your paying customers wants you todo so that we can happyli play the game we all love and care about. If not for us do it for the children .. you must do it for the children.
S'qarpium D'igil	Posted - 2010.04.18 05:31:00 - [472] NO ROKETS FIX TODAY??? HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN??!
Drenan State War Academy	Posted - 2010.04.18 12:06:00 - [473] Fix those damn rockets NOW ccp...
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.19 00:08:00 - [474] OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!!! Yeah I've run out of creative ways to bump this. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2010.04.19 00:11:00 - [475] Edited by: fuxinos on 19/04/2010 00:11:27 I wonder how hard it can be to simply change some values
Pichondra	Posted - 2010.04.19 00:49:00 - [476] when will ccp fix the rockets? tomorrow?
Carla Messer	Posted - 2010.04.19 06:03:00 - [477] I found the formula that would fix rockets and make them a balanced viable weapon but my dog ate it. Also I found the cure for cancer but didn't write it down or tell anyone and I forgot...
Kurunto Nictus Astartes	Posted - 2010.04.19 10:51:00 - [478] OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!!!
Flynn Fetladral BlackSite Prophecy	Posted - 2010.04.19 22:07:00 - [479] Originally by: Kurunto OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!!! lol, keep up the good work +1 for fixing Rockets!
Clintus McGintus Caldari Shades of Life	Posted - 2010.04.19 22:49:00 - [480] Seriously CCP fix rockets!!!!!! Until they are fixed we are going to make sure your Island keeps erupting!!! ________________________________________________ May the Force be with you.

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.20 12:41:00 - [481] Ok, the bumping of this thread is handy, but as we're hoping CCP will notice - how about we try contributing some constructive feedback on how to go about this fix based on what we know and the list of ships a page or two back? The amounts to tweak rockets by are fairly obvious so instead let's look at fixes that may need to be done on the ships themselves. Here are a few of mine: Hawk - it needs more fitting, and the active tank bonus needs a re-think imo. Kestrel - lose the 50% bonus and make it 25% to all types, and add a second bonus either to shields or missile velocity. Shields would make it more Merlin-like while missile velocity would open up interesting possibilities for a kitemobile. Breacher - 4/2/2 slot layout - was this a typo when they entered the ship info in? Give it a third mid to bring it up to par with other frigates of that tier and boost its PG/CPU appropriately. Change bonus to a flat 25% to all types and give a second bonus to... actually I'm not sure. Speed? Less shooty than a Kestrel but much more mobile. Inquisitor - 4/2/3 layout is workable, sort of, but like the Kestrel I propose giving it a flat 25% all round damage and a second bonus to armour. Less versatile than a Kestrel but tougher. Also the fitting could really use a boost as with the others. These are the three that spring to mind that have issues going deeper than just rockets, but other contributions are welcome. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.20 13:03:00 - [482] Heretic - needs more fitting (mostly cpu but also some grid)
Captain Muscles Caldari Clan Farthammer	Posted - 2010.04.20 13:31:00 - [483] Did they fixed rockets today?
J1LT	Posted - 2010.04.20 15:03:00 - [484] Originally by: Captain Muscles Did they fixed rockets today? not yet :(
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2010.04.20 18:29:00 - [485] Originally by: J1LT Originally by: Captain Muscles Did they fixed rockets today? not yet :( Now?
lost marble Caldari	Posted - 2010.04.21 00:09:00 - [486] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Hawk - it needs more fitting, and the active tank bonus needs a re-think imo. This is a common request in terms of the hawk however a little analysis of AF slot layouts reveals a deeper problem, the hawk and vengeance both have one less slot than their turret based counterparts. Rocket AF's need 4 launcher hard points where turret AF's get 3 but instead of adding a slot the vengeance lost its utility high and the hawk lost a mid slot. All tackle AF's have 7 mid/low slots apart from the hawk and ishkur which have to make do with 6, in the case of the ishkur this is justified because of its high DPS but it utterly cripples the hawk. td:dr I want my feking midslot back.
Number 17 Caldari COLD-Wing	Posted - 2010.04.21 08:41:00 - [487] I had a frig fight yesterday, checked logs, came to the conclusion that rockets didn't get fixed!!! PLEASE INCREASE LOAD ON ROCKET LAUNCHER II to 80 !!!!!
Darcon Kylote Terminal Impact On the Rocks	Posted - 2010.04.21 11:23:00 - [488] The Tyranis feature page is missing the info about the rocket fix, please update, thx. -- Terminal Impact is recruiting PVPers for fun ops in lowsec/0.0/wormhole space. Visit our website or join ingame channel "the tict pub".
HeliosGal Caldari	Posted - 2010.04.21 11:33:00 - [489] Originally by: Darcon Kylote The Tyranis feature page is missing the info about the rocket fix, please update, thx. yes it seems ccp has forgotten to change the patch notes on the rocket fix Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.21 14:22:00 - [490] Originally by: HeliosGal Originally by: Darcon Kylote The Tyranis feature page is missing the info about the rocket fix, please update, thx. yes it seems ccp has forgotten to change the patch notes on the rocket fix You just don't understand, there's no way they could work it into Tyrannis. They're too busy making alienware stuff flash pretty colours when their shields get low. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.

Captain Muscles Caldari Clan Farthammer	Posted - 2010.04.21 16:48:00 - [491] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: HeliosGal Originally by: Darcon Kylote The Tyranis feature page is missing the info about the rocket fix, please update, thx. yes it seems ccp has forgotten to change the patch notes on the rocket fix You just don't understand, there's no way they could work it into Tyrannis. They're too busy making alienware stuff flash pretty colours when their shields get low. Why not implement both at once? http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1303162
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.21 17:04:00 - [492] Originally by: Captain Muscles Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: HeliosGal Originally by: Darcon Kylote The Tyranis feature page is missing the info about the rocket fix, please update, thx. yes it seems ccp has forgotten to change the patch notes on the rocket fix You just don't understand, there's no way they could work it into Tyrannis. They're too busy making alienware stuff flash pretty colours when their shields get low. Why not implement both at once? http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1303162 Because it takes manpower. You know someone has to stop playing with flashy keyboard lights and random vindicator buffs and actually fix what was broken for 1,5 year now. But as everyone is SO BUSY right now we wont get any fix soon. Sigh. Seriously i think ill give up on this...
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.04.21 19:28:00 - [493] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Because it takes manpower. You know someone has to stop playing with flashy keyboard lights and random vindicator buffs and actually fix what was broken for 1,5 year now. But as everyone is SO BUSY right now we wont get any fix soon. Sigh. Seriously i think ill give up on this... Never Give up! Never Surrender! _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Doctor Mabuse	Posted - 2010.04.22 11:54:00 - [494] Nobody has bumped this thread today? Does this mean rockets are fixed??!!!
Mohenna Caldari Knights of the Dark	Posted - 2010.04.22 12:50:00 - [495] You Want To Believe too I see
Captain Muscles Caldari Clan Farthammer	Posted - 2010.04.22 16:59:00 - [496] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Captain Muscles http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1303162 Because it takes manpower. You know someone has to stop playing with flashy keyboard lights and random vindicator buffs and actually fix what was broken for 1,5 year now. But as everyone is SO BUSY right now we wont get any fix soon. Sigh. Seriously i think ill give up on this... I guess you either didn't check out the thread I linked, or I didn't get my point across very well in it. Oh well. So... did they fixed rockets today?
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.04.22 18:06:00 - [497] OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!! _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.22 18:07:00 - [498] Originally by: Captain Muscles I guess you either didn't check out the thread I linked, or I didn't get my point across very well in it. Oh well. So... did they fixed rockets today? Heh true i didnt read it :P my bad. But again - CCP would prolly add flashy lights and totally ignore the more imporant part due to lack of time ;p
S'qarpium D'igil	Posted - 2010.04.23 01:02:00 - [499] I am SHOCKED that CCP did not fix rockets today. Proof that CCP doesn't give a damn about their loyal customers.
Tanaka Reina	Posted - 2010.04.23 04:31:00 - [500] I manufactured me some shuttles so I can get my hookbill from highsec to low sec hangout when rockets are fixed... They did say that they will fix them on the summer patch, I think that means Tyranis then, im just fitting my Hawk/Hookbill/Kestrel until that day :/ give hookbill more cpu plz :/

Rico Lobo	Posted - 2010.04.23 06:11:00 - [501] not yet
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.23 06:45:00 - [502] Originally by: Tanaka Reina They did say that they will fix them on the summer patch Source? _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Vanden Duty. Duty. Private Security	Posted - 2010.04.23 09:28:00 - [503] A bit vague, but I thought you lot might be interested: Originally by: CCP Soundwave Originally by: fuxinos And what about rockets? There will be rockets. link
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2010.04.23 11:24:00 - [504] Heh just a bit. Vague promises such as this have been a reoccurring ccp troll.
Doctor Mabuse	Posted - 2010.04.23 23:33:00 - [505] Its all OK! Henri Rearden says rockets will be fixed for Tyrannis - linkage ------------------------------------ Who's trip-trapping on my bridge?
Phantom Slave Universal Pest Exterminators	Posted - 2010.04.24 02:46:00 - [506] Originally by: Vanden A bit vague, but I thought you lot might be interested: Pretty sure that quote has been taken out of context. There are rockets in planetary interaction that bring the goods from the surface out to orbit. These are the rockets that CCP is talking about there, not our craptastic weapon system. Unless he really meant our rockets, and not the other rockets. But I doubt that because it's a thread for the PI dev blog, and not a thread asking for AF/Rocket fixes.
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2010.04.24 17:23:00 - [507] Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 24/04/2010 17:25:44 Originally by: Number 17 I had a frig fight yesterday, checked logs, came to the conclusion that rockets didn't get fixed!!! PLEASE INCREASE LOAD ON ROCKET LAUNCHER II to 80 !!!!! Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II * 0.99 m3 * 6.4 sec RoF Terror Assault Missile: 0.015 m3 Launcher Capacity: 0.99 / 0.015 = 66 missiles Rocket Launcher II * 0.2 m3 * 3.2 sec RoF Thorn Rocket: 0.005 m3 Launcher Capacity: 0.2 / 0.005 = 40 rockets Doubling the capacity of rocket launchers is a good start, but I think it should be 66 * 2 = 132 rockets, for an equivalent time between reloads.
Allen Ramses Caldari Zombicidal Mania Reckoning.	Posted - 2010.04.25 13:48:00 - [508] I'm beginning to wonder if CCP is going to be 'fixing' rocket explosion velocities and ignoring the needed 50% boost to rocket/light DPS, the needed 100% boost to velocity and 50% flight time reduction in rockets and HAMs (300% boost to velocity and 75% time reduction for torps), the flawed skills, the absurd fitting differences between rockets and lights as well as cruise and torps, precision missiles, the broken tracking mechanics, evolutionary scale inconsistencies... Yeah, I could go on for hours. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.26 10:16:00 - [509] back to the top _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Captain Muscles Caldari Clan Farthammer	Posted - 2010.04.26 14:49:00 - [510] Is today a good day to start training Rockets V? ____________________ Captain Muscles sez:

Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:09:00 - [511] Originally by: Captain Muscles Is today a good day to start training Rockets V? No, I do not believe it is. Sadly, I already trained it. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Ninetails o'Cat League of Super Evil	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:27:00 - [512] Originally by: Allen Ramses I'm beginning to wonder if CCP is going to be 'fixing' rocket explosion velocities and ignoring the needed 50% boost to rocket/light DPS, the needed 100% boost to velocity and 50% flight time reduction in rockets and HAMs (300% boost to velocity and 75% time reduction for torps), the flawed skills, the absurd fitting differences between rockets and lights as well as cruise and torps, precision missiles, the broken tracking mechanics, evolutionary scale inconsistencies... Yeah, I could go on for hours. Keep your OCD need to make everything step up in neat steps out of this thread. Just boost rockets, it's two numbers FFS.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.26 20:54:00 - [513] Originally by: Krennel Darius Originally by: Captain Muscles Is today a good day to start training Rockets V? No, I do not believe it is. Sadly, I already trained it. Rocket spec 5 krew checking in o/
Captain Muscles Caldari Clan Farthammer	Posted - 2010.04.26 21:50:00 - [514] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Krennel Darius Originally by: Captain Muscles Is today a good day to start training Rockets V? No, I do not believe it is. Sadly, I already trained it. Rocket spec 5 krew checking in o/ What a miserable wretch of a man! I am filled with the urge to go home and give Survey V a great big hug and tell her how sorry I am for not appreciating everything she has done for me. ____________________ Captain Muscles sez:
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.26 22:13:00 - [515] survey 5 too :X
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.27 09:58:00 - [516] Rockets 5 standing by _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Number 17 Caldari COLD-Wing	Posted - 2010.04.27 13:27:00 - [517] As the Patch gets closer, we must raise our voices in unison. FIX.ROCKETS.NOW.
Captain Muscles Caldari Clan Farthammer	Posted - 2010.04.27 19:34:00 - [518] Hi Cap here please fix rockets so I can shoot evil pirates with them and make the world safer for the friendly pilots lol ecks ____________________ Captain Muscles sez:
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.04.27 21:57:00 - [519] Look ma, its page 18! Rockets V primed and ready to go. OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!! We can has rawkits nao CCP plz? _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Allen Ramses Caldari Zombicidal Mania Reckoning.	Posted - 2010.04.27 22:35:00 - [520] Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat Keep your OCD need to make everything step up in neat steps out of this thread. Just boost rockets, it's two numbers FFS. Keep your trolls and insults out of this thread, Halcyon and/or Gypsio. And there are actually three numbers that need to be adjusted, none of which are explosion velocity. If CCP are going to say they DID FIXED ROCKETS TAMARRO, it'd probably best if they knew what needed fixeding. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.

Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.04.27 23:47:00 - [521] Edited by: Braitai on 27/04/2010 23:54:20 Originally by: Allen Ramses And there are actually three numbers that need to be adjusted, none of which are explosion velocity.. Wut? sooo.. you'd keep explosion velocity the same? Would you adjust their radius instead I read your other post on missiles, and vaguely remember thinking the same thing as Cat, that you just wanted everything to fit into a nice progression for no real reason. Other than, I dunno, the need for nice symmetrical looking numbers. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Allen Ramses Caldari Zombicidal Mania Reckoning.	Posted - 2010.04.28 01:22:00 - [522] Edited by: Allen Ramses on 28/04/2010 01:22:23 Originally by: Braitai Edited by: Braitai on 27/04/2010 23:54:20 Originally by: Allen Ramses And there are actually three numbers that need to be adjusted, none of which are explosion velocity.. Wut? sooo.. you'd keep explosion velocity the same? Would you adjust their radius instead Missile velocity doubled, flight time halved, and DPS increased by 50% (probably all in alpha). Explosion velocity is appropriate, damage output and usability is not. Quote: I read your other post on missiles, and vaguely remember thinking the same thing as Cat, that you just wanted everything to fit into a nice progression for no real reason. Other than, I dunno, the need for nice symmetrical looking numbers. If you had a choice between someone who was (admittedly) too detail oriented, or someone who was nearly incapable of observing detail (CCP Nozh), who would you choose to get the job done? Would you rather everything take twice as long, or would you rather everything be done with complete disregard for common sense? Which is worse? EDIT: See your own signature. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.04.28 02:16:00 - [523] Originally by: Allen Ramses Missile velocity doubled, flight time halved, and DPS increased by 50% (probably all in alpha). Explosion velocity is appropriate, damage output and usability is not. Great, so the 40 odd DPS a rocket malediction does to a webbed/scrammed duel prop 'ranis will instead do an amazing 60dps, possibly a little over 50dps to a Dramiel. Whereas a 150% increase in explosion velocity will result in about 80dps vs that 'ranis. Quote: If you had a choice between someone who was (admittedly) too detail oriented, or someone who was nearly incapable of observing detail (CCP Nozh), who would you choose to get the job done? Would you rather everything take twice as long, or would you rather everything be done with complete disregard for common sense? Which is worse? Firstly, it's not about your supposed ability to be "detail orientated", it's your inability to justify your opinions. Secondly, I'm not choosing between you and CCP Nozh, am I? Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.28 07:43:00 - [524] Originally by: Allen Ramses Edited by: Allen Ramses on 28/04/2010 01:22:23 Originally by: Braitai Edited by: Braitai on 27/04/2010 23:54:20 Originally by: Allen Ramses And there are actually three numbers that need to be adjusted, none of which are explosion velocity.. Wut? sooo.. you'd keep explosion velocity the same? Would you adjust their radius instead Missile velocity doubled, flight time halved, and DPS increased by 50% (probably all in alpha). Explosion velocity is appropriate, damage output and usability is not. crap damage x1,5 is still crap damage. Dealing 20 or 30dps vs ABing frig doesnt really matter beause it is THAT low. So no, boosting DPS and not touching velocity wont do much. As was stated in this thread multiple times (and you did read the smart posts i hope) the biggest flaw of rockets is need to use 2x web to actually be able to DAMAGE AB frigs. Which is not in line with any other (larger) missile system in this game (which in fact require only 1 web to get decent DPS on AB target). Next: halving flight time on rockets would mean they would vanish before doing 1st turn towards target (or just after). Im rly not sure if CCP already fixed launch vector on some frigs (like vengeance) coz i havent used rockets for a long while now - but if they didnt you would ensure that those frigs would never actually hit their targets. At all. In this case rework of missile engine (physical) would be needed which is much larger problem than fixing 2 numbers in database. And prolly other problems which i cant remember at a whim (just woke up, brain not functioning at 100% yet).
Marquis Zenas I.X Research	Posted - 2010.04.28 09:35:00 - [525] I heard defenders are getting fixed first -------------------------- Sigless
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.28 11:11:00 - [526] Quote: Explosion velocity is appropriate I lol'd. Please stop talking, or CCP might get the idea that this is anything but pure idiocy. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.04.28 12:58:00 - [527] Hey *gots, My name is John, and I hate every single one of you. All of you are fat, **ed, no-lifes who spend every second of their day looking at stupid ass rockets. You are everything bad in the world. Honestly, have any of you ever gotten any killmails? I mean, I guess it's fun making fun of people because of your own roflkets, but you all take to a whole new level. This is even worse than self destructing to velators in bourynes. Don't be a stranger. Just hit me with your best shot. I'm pretty much perfect. I was fleet commander of the eastern coalition, and starter on my stealth bomb gang. What style do you play, other than "whine about roflkets"? I also get straight kills, and have a banging hot mothership (She just blew me; was SO cash). You are all *gots who should just kill yourselves. Thanks for listening. Pic not found.
Borgh Brainbasher Path of Now and Forever	Posted - 2010.04.28 13:49:00 - [528] Originally by: Amberlamps Hey **gots, (snip, that was quite enough) thanks for the bump. --- Warning: You are* on the pvp only server.

CCP Adida	Posted - 2010.04.28 14:37:00 - [529] Removed trolling posts. If you are dissatisfied with something please be constructive. Adida Community Rep CCP Hf, EVE Online

Xtover Amarr	Posted - 2010.04.28 16:42:00 - [530] Originally by: CCP Adida Removed trolling posts. If you are dissatisfied with something please be constructive. I'm dissatisfied with the lack of constructive development in such a simple implementation that will return the viability of several developed ships that are currently unused. So when is CCP going to do something constructive?

Killmeded	Posted - 2010.04.28 17:04:00 - [531] Originally by: CCP Adida Removed trolling posts. If you are dissatisfied with something please be constructive. We are sitting here in the dark. An update would be nice. Like What is (or might) going to be changed? even if it is tenative. What ideas are being looked at as the most likely to be used? Is this change going to be on Sisi? Is this change going to be in Tyrannis? Are you just addressing rockets or the ships that fit them as well??? Are the other missile weapons being changed as well??? Are you going to change rockets at all??? It is difficult to be constructive when there is no feedback on what is actually going on with the matter.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.28 17:57:00 - [532] Originally by: CCP Adida Removed trolling posts. If you are dissatisfied with something please be constructive. While troll removal is appreciated, I have to echo what the others have said about lack of any word. The problem is, this thread has been going on so long and the fix is so easy that every aspect of it has been discussed to death already and all that remains overall is to keep the thread where it's noticable. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2010.04.28 18:11:00 - [533] Originally by: CCP Adida Removed trolling posts. If you are dissatisfied with something please be constructive. It not meant to be personal offence, but it's rather hard to be constructive two years onward without even a sign of hope (bar one resent post, which was likely a joke). -- Thanks CCP for cu
scunner funk Minmatar Connoisseurs Of Hallucination	Posted - 2010.04.28 18:54:00 - [534] Originally by: Deva Blackfire the biggest flaw of rockets is need to use 2x web to actually be able to DAMAGE AB frigs. Which is not in line with any other (larger) missile system in this game (which in fact require only 1 web to get decent DPS on AB target). Can anyone confirm/deny this? According to my spreadsheet which uses the formula Damage = Base_Damage MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)))* all missile types get a massive reduction in damage vs AB opponents. The spreadsheet was tested in game to be correct but that was some time ago so I'd be much obliged if anyone could point me towards any changes that have happened since quantum rise. Assuming nothing's changed, the reason no one's whining about larger missile sizes is because it's so rare to find larger ships packing an AB. A caracal firing heavies at an AB stabber will get a whopping 70% damage reduction, even against slower cruisers like the thorax you're looking at 50% damage reduction. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that all missiles need changed, quite the opposite. QR was a great boost for torps and it makes me ask why a torp raven is as good as a rocket kestrel is bad? I think the answer ties in two places, one is the ravens ability to fit a web/painter and the other is the fact that few (if any) battleships can match the paper dps of a raven. I'd love to see rockets go the same way as torps and get a massive increase in damage with the trade off that you're not going to hit for full damage unless you've brought webby friends. One thing's for sure though, whatever they do to rockets a similar buff is needed for light missiles. If you've used light missiles much you'll know how the damage just drops off against AB frigates, it comes to something when a 20 mill isk crow has problems breaking the tank on a 500k isk frigate.
Henri Rearden Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.04.28 20:57:00 - [535] Originally by: scunner funk Originally by: Deva Blackfire the biggest flaw of rockets is need to use 2x web to actually be able to DAMAGE AB frigs. Which is not in line with any other (larger) missile system in this game (which in fact require only 1 web to get decent DPS on AB target). Can anyone confirm/deny this? According to my spreadsheet which uses the formula Damage = Base_Damage MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)))* all missile types get a massive reduction in damage vs AB opponents. The spreadsheet was tested in game to be correct but that was some time ago so I'd be much obliged if anyone could point me towards any changes that have happened since quantum rise. Assuming nothing's changed, the reason no one's whining about larger missile sizes is because it's so rare to find larger ships packing an AB. A caracal firing heavies at an AB stabber will get a whopping 70% damage reduction, even against slower cruisers like the thorax you're looking at 50% damage reduction. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that all missiles need changed, quite the opposite. QR was a great boost for torps and it makes me ask why a torp raven is as good as a rocket kestrel is bad? I think the answer ties in two places, one is the ravens ability to fit a web/painter and the other is the fact that few (if any) battleships can match the paper dps of a raven. I'd love to see rockets go the same way as torps and get a massive increase in damage with the trade off that you're not going to hit for full damage unless you've brought webby friends. One thing's for sure though, whatever they do to rockets a similar buff is needed for light missiles. If you've used light missiles much you'll know how the damage just drops off against AB frigates, it comes to something when a 20 mill isk crow has problems breaking the tank on a 500k isk frigate. Hrmm... that's interesting, I didn't know the other missile systems suffered from the same weaknesses as rockets. Aside from maybe needing a small base damage boost, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that CCP probably doesn't consider rockets an issue for the most part since they are in line with other missile systems. I know we've gotten "rockets are being looked at" responses, but really the only responses I want to get are "yes, we think that rockets are broken too and we're working on them, they're just not high on our priority list," or "no, rockets are fine, they're working as intended since we really only wanted people to use them against slow NPC ships."
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.28 21:06:00 - [536] Originally by: scunner funk Originally by: Deva Blackfire the biggest flaw of rockets is need to use 2x web to actually be able to DAMAGE AB frigs. Which is not in line with any other (larger) missile system in this game (which in fact require only 1 web to get decent DPS on AB target). Can anyone confirm/deny this? According to my spreadsheet which uses the formula Damage = Base_Damage MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)))* all missile types get a massive reduction in damage vs AB opponents. The spreadsheet was tested in game to be correct but that was some time ago so I'd be much obliged if anyone could point me towards any changes that have happened since quantum rise. Mere ya go. AB ishkur 888m/s, 39 sig. 53% damage reduction from rockets. 355,2m/s after getting webbed = 19% damage reduction. And ishkur isnt rly the fastest of them or the smallest. AB jag 905/34sig -> 57% reduction. 26% reduction after single web. AB dramiel 1798/32sig -> 72% reduction. After getting webbed 53% reduction. Stabber 918m/s 105 sig vs heavy missile (normal one): 70% reduction. After being webbed 47% reduction. Thorax: 543m/s 140 sig: 50% reduction. After being webbed: 11% reduction. Now lets look at DPS of each ship class. Rocket ships tend to deal around 80-100dps, their own ship class (gun frigs) usually go around 150-200 dps. So they start off with half of DPS already. Cruiser sized? Cerberus (sorry i dunno caracal off my head) does around 350-400dps in heavy missile setup wheras cruiser class does around 300-500dps. Tanks on all frigs or all cruisers are similiar. Result? While damage reduction from web or non-web are more-less the same (with sole exception of dramiel and ceptors which need 2 webs on them to actually get damaged by rockets and uber-fast cruisers like vaga or stabber which also need 2 webs) the DPS isnt - rockets compared to other ships in their class are far behind compared to heavies (long range ones!) vs others in their respective class. Another factor: midslots. Rocket ships usually have 3 mids thus its impossible to create anti-ceptor rocket ship because of lack of midslots (mwd, web, scrambler and... thats it). Cruisers have it tad easier due to having 4-5mids (sacri being 4mid one). So all in all - rockets are hurt in both departments. Rocket ships both lack comparable DPS to heavy missile counterparts (and HMLs are long range ones...) and they lack mids to actually fit webs to apply their damage on favouret target. It is ESPECIALLY visible on heretic which was designed as frigate killer yet it cannot kill ceptors due to above. So yeh you answered your own quesiton. Its not explo velocity alone. Its explo velocity+missile (and target) velocity+amount of slots for ewar+amount of drones+DPS in their own respective class. Of which underlined elemends can be fixed by boosting explo velocity alone. More explo v. = less need for midslots for painters/webs (which frigs lack) and less need for TP/web drones (which frigs lack). Then there would DPS issue remain but i can forget about it if im able to apply current DPS on targets. Plus i myself prefer fixing stuff by small steps (tho it seems ccp thinks otherwise... one "fix" once per 3 years).
Allen Ramses Caldari Zombicidal Mania Reckoning.	Posted - 2010.04.29 02:14:00 - [537] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Mere ya go. AB ishkur 888m/s, 39 sig. 53% damage reduction from rockets. 355,2m/s after getting webbed = 19% damage reduction. And ishkur isnt rly the fastest of them or the smallest. AB jag 905/34sig -> 57% reduction. 26% reduction after single web. AB dramiel 1798/32sig -> 72% reduction. After getting webbed 53% reduction. Stabber 918m/s 105 sig vs heavy missile (normal one): 70% reduction. After being webbed 47% reduction. Thorax: 543m/s 140 sig: 50% reduction. After being webbed: 11% reduction. This does not illustrate anything wrong with rocket explosion velocity. It actually reinforces the fact that explosion velocities are around where they should be. If you think rockets "only" dealing 81% damage on a webbed ab target is a problem, I hope you won't try the same with turrets while flying with your AB on. Good luck getting a guaranteed 81% hit quality on that one. What it does illustrate is an imbalance of signature radius and ship velocity in several Minmatar vessels. It also illustrates how ABs greatly increase velocity while not modifying signature in any way, something I personally disagree with... but neither of these has anything to do with rockets specifically. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.04.29 02:55:00 - [538] Originally by: Allen Ramses I hope you won't try the same with turrets while flying with your AB on. Good luck getting a guaranteed 81% hit quality on that one. The thing about how turret DPS is calculated though, is that an AB on your own ship can be used to counter the AB on someone else's, since you can fly manually to reduce transversal. My scam/web fit rocket Malediction will destroy any MWD 'sader, since it can get under it's guns quite easily. An AB 'sader however absolutely murders my male, not just because of the amount of damage reduction it gets (around 50%) but because transversal drops close to zero assuming the 'sader pilot actually knows what they're doing, bringing a full 150-200dps. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.04.29 03:42:00 - [539] Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Deva Blackfire Mere ya go. AB ishkur 888m/s, 39 sig. 53% damage reduction from rockets. 355,2m/s after getting webbed = 19% damage reduction. And ishkur isnt rly the fastest of them or the smallest. AB jag 905/34sig -> 57% reduction. 26% reduction after single web. AB dramiel 1798/32sig -> 72% reduction. After getting webbed 53% reduction. Stabber 918m/s 105 sig vs heavy missile (normal one): 70% reduction. After being webbed 47% reduction. Thorax: 543m/s 140 sig: 50% reduction. After being webbed: 11% reduction. This does not illustrate anything wrong with rocket explosion velocity. It actually reinforces the fact that explosion velocities are around where they should be. If you think rockets "only" dealing 81% damage on a webbed ab target is a problem, I hope you won't try the same with turrets while flying with your AB on. Good luck getting a guaranteed 81% hit quality on that one. What it does illustrate is an imbalance of signature radius and ship velocity in several Minmatar vessels. It also illustrates how ABs greatly increase velocity while not modifying signature in any way, something I personally disagree with... but neither of these has anything to do with rockets specifically. I agree partly... What shocked me to the core the other day was... Sitting on the FFA1 beacon in a Cerberus then all of a sudden an Amarr t2 interceptor starts burning 5kms towards me... I'm some 170km away... I think great I'll fire the missiles at him (T2 Damage HM) by the time my missiles get close he'll be in range and then he'll be toast with that sig radius!!! However... to my surprise I landed a whopping 2.3 damage on him... WHAT THE **? He has a 500% sig radius bonus, he's flying directly towards me and my missiles don't land any damage? WTF? Dont bull me with some explosion velocity **, that missile would go straight through him. Sig radius seems to have little to no effect when speed comes into missiles.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.04.29 04:45:00 - [540] Originally by: Amberlamps Sig radius seems to have little to no effect when speed comes into missiles. Interceptors get a large reduction in MWD sig bloom, 500% goes down to 125% at level V, so it's sig would have been a little over 70m. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.

Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.04.29 08:12:00 - [541] Originally by: Amberlamps I agree partly... What shocked me to the core the other day was... Sitting on the FFA1 beacon in a Cerberus then all of a sudden an Amarr t2 interceptor starts burning 5kms towards me... I'm some 170km away... I think great I'll fire the missiles at him (T2 Damage HM) by the time my missiles get close he'll be in range and then he'll be toast with that sig radius!!! However... to my surprise I landed a whopping 2.3 damage on him... WHAT THE ****? This is because you're a dribbling moron. You were using "T2 high damage" heavy missiles against a damn interceptor. WTF did you expect to happen, using a weapon designed to attack battlecruisers and battleships against a damn frigate?
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.29 08:37:00 - [542] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 29/04/2010 08:38:56 Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Deva Blackfire Mere ya go. AB ishkur 888m/s, 39 sig. 53% damage reduction from rockets. 355,2m/s after getting webbed = 19% damage reduction. And ishkur isnt rly the fastest of them or the smallest. AB jag 905/34sig -> 57% reduction. 26% reduction after single web. AB dramiel 1798/32sig -> 72% reduction. After getting webbed 53% reduction. Stabber 918m/s 105 sig vs heavy missile (normal one): 70% reduction. After being webbed 47% reduction. Thorax: 543m/s 140 sig: 50% reduction. After being webbed: 11% reduction. This does not illustrate anything wrong with rocket explosion velocity. It actually reinforces the fact that explosion velocities are around where they should be. If you think rockets "only" dealing 81% damage on a webbed ab target is a problem, I hope you won't try the same with turrets while flying with your AB on. Good luck getting a guaranteed 81% hit quality on that one. What it does illustrate is an imbalance of signature radius and ship velocity in several Minmatar vessels. It also illustrates how ABs greatly increase velocity while not modifying signature in any way, something I personally disagree with... but neither of these has anything to do with rockets specifically. What you are illustrating is your inability of comprehensive reading. I already posted which issues would be fixed with explo velocity boost. Namely (and i do hate repeating myself): lack of mids AND drones for TP/webs. Easy example: eris. Second - heretic. Another hint: turret ship can improve hit quality by manual ship control - its kinda easy if you actually know you can do this. Missile ship cannot do this. It doesnt matter if transversal is 0 or 600 - explo velocity will be compared versus target velocity every time. Add lower DPS of rockets in their own respective ship class and we have whats now on TQ. So again: read my post, read posts on previous pages (launch vector, missile velocity issues) coz i wont repeat myself. EDIT: also its worth noting that there isnt cruiser or BS sized class copying interceptors. Only frigs get super-high velocity ship type which is major screw up on missile users side. Rockets were balanced (as it shows above) against circa 800-1000m/s ships with 34 sig. Not against 2x faster ones.
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2010.04.29 12:47:00 - [543] Rockets ARE lame I bought a Malediction - and I had to put projectiles on it to hit ANYTHING... Even in a short range setup where I MWD'ed to target and activated warp SCRAMBLER and webifier my rockets didnt even hit target up that close WTF? Nice to have an interceptor with long range bonus to scramblers/Disruptors and then give it useless rockets WITH A DAMAGE bonus LOL... - I'm a nice guy!! But plz hook me up with some pew pew...
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.29 13:59:00 - [544] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 29/04/2010 14:15:27 Quote: I'd love to see rockets go the same way as torps and get a massive increase in damage with the trade off that you're not going to hit for full damage unless you've brought webby friends. Good dps with good explosion velocity = fine. Buffing DPS so high that it compensates for explosion velocity = 400 dps Kestrels of doom. Seriously, why is this so complicated? Buff damage and explosion velocity so they're in proportion = simple fix that brings them in line with other frigate weapons. If I wanted an insane damage frigate that needed tackle - guess what, they already exist. They're called stealth bombers. On the other hand what I, and many others, want is a weapon system that hits stuff in its own size class for reasonable dps, and is in-line with the other frigate weapons, not some stupid gimmick that's like using rage ammo 100% of the time. Quote: it comes to something when a 20 mill isk crow has problems breaking the tank on a 500k isk frigate. Also I just had to bring this up to have a laugh at it. Have you ever actually flown anything with light missiles? Afterburners never saved any of the frigates I met. If you're talking from personal experience I suggest you get your skills past II. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.04.29 16:15:00 - [545] Edited by: Amberlamps on 29/04/2010 16:16:35 Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 29/04/2010 08:24:51 Originally by: Amberlamps I agree partly... What shocked me to the core the other day was... Sitting on the FFA1 beacon in a Cerberus then all of a sudden an Amarr t2 interceptor starts burning 5kms towards me... I'm some 170km away... I think great I'll fire the missiles at him (T2 Damage HM) by the time my missiles get close he'll be in range and then he'll be toast with that sig radius!!! However... to my surprise I landed a whopping 2.3 damage on him... WHAT THE ****? This is because you're a dribbling moron. You were using "T2 high damage" heavy missiles against a damn interceptor. WTF did you expect to happen, using a weapon designed to attack battlecruisers and battleships against a damn frigate?. So with the reduction to sig radius bonus from t2 interceptor with his mwd + my missile skills. My missiles would easily have a small sig radius compare to that of his ship... He was flying directly towards me at 5kms... Yet I still only landed 2.3 damage? You must be a dribbling moron too... You can use Torpedoes which are designed to shoot battleships against battle cruisers with full effectiveness with a TP and good skills. So now lets look at his Sig raidus vs my missile which is around 100... it isn't making sense... the explosion velocity nerfs the crap out of everything. Where as the equivalent of tracking allows a huge chance of landing a hit when someone flys directly towards you, missiles dont have the same benefit in any scenario. So now lets look at artillery... oh wait I would one hit him even though Im using a battleship sized weapon I would still take that ship out in one hit. However missiles don't get a bonus if someone flys directly towards them... Speed + Sig Radius = Missiles do nothing. Speed + Sig Radius = AC/Hybrid/Lasers can still land high damage. It doesn't make sense as the missile directly impacting it head on would go straight through the ship. The balance just isn't Roflkets Its generally all missiles, however it is more prevalent in roflkets.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.04.29 17:15:00 - [546] Originally by: Amberlamps So with the reduction to sig radius bonus from t2 interceptor with his mwd + my missile skills. My missiles would easily have a small sig radius compare to that of his ship... He was flying directly towards me at 5kms... Yet I still only landed 2.3 damage? Small? Sigh. Come on. Learn how your weapons system works. Max-skilled Fury Heavy explosion radius = 161.3 m. Crusader signature radius with Inties V = 72 m. The missile has over twice the radius of the Crusader. The only thing that is "small" here is your degree of competence. You are whining that a weapon system designed to be used against battlecruisers isn't very effective against interceptors. What the hell did you expect? If you want your Cerberus to knock interceptors out of the sky with hilarious ease, use the appropriate weapon. That is, AMLs with Navy Bloodclaws. With the right fit you can do it with 4 volleys, with the Doppler effect compressing the volleys to six seconds from first hit to pop. Expecting Fury Heavies to be effective against a bloody interceptor is just ******ed.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.29 18:02:00 - [547] Quote: You must be a dribbling moron too... Please refrain from insulting people who know what they're talking about when you're the fool that tried using furies on a Crusader. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Allen Ramses Caldari Zombicidal Mania Reckoning.	Posted - 2010.04.29 22:50:00 - [548] Originally by: Deva Blackfire What you are illustrating is your inability of comprehensive reading. I have no inability to comprehend information. I just happen to know that your information is incorrect. When you are able to accurately separate underlying problems from by-products of said problems, you will understand. Until then, there is nothing more that I, or anyone else, can say that will make your thoughts and ideas as sound as those (like me) who are. I've already explained it before countless times to many people, most of which haven't gotten it. I don't care whether the system is too complex, the person is unwilling to critically examine the system, or the person is unable to critically examine the system. It isn't my problem. I just wish I would remember that, so I'd spend less time arguing with someone who isn't as familiar with the language. Not to sound (too) arrogant, that's just the way I see it. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.29 22:55:00 - [549] You should team up with bellum. He is also widely misunderstood about his gallente fixes and how 4000dps megathron is not overpowered.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.04.30 00:36:00 - [550] Originally by: Allen Ramses content-less post The changes you mentioned would take the small number of situations where a rocket boat works and make them 50% more effective, and do almost nothing to the large number of situations where you're better off equipping turret weapons. If I'm fighting a 'sader, I've got it webbed and scrammed and I'm orbiting it at 500, it's either traveling in a straight line thereby messing with it's own tracking, or it's turning to try and reduce transversal, in which case it's velocity is lower and I'm probably doing full damage to it. 50% more damage will just mean I kill it 50% quicker. If I'm fighting a duel prop 'ranis, I'm kiting it. It's going full speed towards me and I'm heading at full speed away from it (assuming I have enough speed to, in most cases I don't since an AB increases speed by more the amount it is reduced by a web), so it gets a MASSIVE reduction in the amount of damage it's taking. 50% more damage would make it easier, sure, but balanced? Would a Crow have a shot at killing it? No, not really, a 'ranis should win every time. Comparing the reductions in hit rate and quality that turrets receive with regards to transversal, and the reduction in damage that rockets take due to target velocity really is like comparing apples and oranges. They are a completely separate mechanic that in practice work completely differently. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.

yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.04.30 02:47:00 - [551] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: scunner funk it comes to something when a 20 mill isk crow has problems breaking the tank on a 500k isk frigate. Also I just had to bring this up to have a laugh at it. Have you ever actually flown anything with light missiles? Afterburners never saved any of the frigates I met. If you're talking from personal experience I suggest you get your skills past II. I'm disappointed, your posts are usually better thought out than this. I've spent much time extolling the virtues of the crow as an AF killer but it doesn't remove the fact that light missiles get a huge reduction in damage against AB frigates. I have lvl 5 skills and while 500k isk frigate may have been an exaggeration you're talking about a weapon that is designed to kill frigates but is only fitted to ships who don't operate in web range. Try fighting another interceptor in a light missile / disruptor crow and then check your damage logs, the result is an embarrassment. Try fighting a smart AB ishkur pilot and you'll realize that he can go a looooong way before your dramatically reduced damage gets through his tank. Some damage reduction fine but 72% damage reduction against a MWD claw? LM ships are not pwnmobiles, you have a good chance of someone hitting you with an overheated scram and pay a heavy fitting price for your range advantage (read massively reduced tank), is it asking a lot to do more than 30 DPS to targets in the same ship class as me? Sig_______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.30 11:13:00 - [552] Quote: Try fighting another interceptor... This much I will agree on. On the other hand, buffing light missiles in this situation would be walking a very fine line between balanced and making the Crow seriously OP. I mean consider what would happen if they hit for enough to do serious damage then factor in the huge range and lack of tracking. That could very easily go too far the other way. While we're on this subject: another thing that'd be good is dropping the grid need from 8 to 6. 8 grid on a weapon designed for ships notoriously anemic on power is absolutely absurd, especially considering the high CPU cost they're also stuck with. Off the top of my head it's only the Crow that I've managed to make good use of the t2 launchers on as the Kestrel/Hookbill/Hawk just can't do it. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Flynn Fetladral BlackSite Prophecy	Posted - 2010.04.30 11:26:00 - [553] Did they fix rockets today?
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.04.30 18:46:00 - [554] Originally by: Flynn Fetladral Did they fix rockets today? OMG OMG.. they DID NOT FIXED ROCKETS TODAY!! _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.05.01 10:39:00 - [555] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington walking a very fine line between balanced and making the Crow seriously OP ...dropping the grid need from 8 to 6. 8 I can't see LM ships becoming OP by increasing the Ev/Er a bit, the crow is so flimsy that even T1 frigs like the rifter have considerably more tank n gank if they land a scram on it. Even if you drop the grid a bit an LM kezzie isn't going to have more than a basic tank, that plus it's slow speed make it pretty vulnerable. The only ship that might be able to field lights and a decent tank is the hawk and if there was ever a ship in need of a buff it's the hawk. Is it obvious that I'm running out of things to say about rockets? Sig_______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.01 12:00:00 - [556] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 01/05/2010 12:03:26 Quote: Is it obvious that I'm running out of things to say about rockets? I think everyone is tbh, as it's been discussed to death in this thread for over a year with the closest to feedback being "we're aware of it" for a change of two goddamn numbers. But in regards to the Crow: ok, if we accept the fact that it's going to be caught by other inties (as you're talking about tank), then even with a light missile buff it's screwed. Any of the other combat inties will murder it anyway up close, so it's back to square one without that buff being very impressive, and that's where it's walking the fine line. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.05.02 13:30:00 - [557] Billy Crocket had a rocket in his pocket but when he tried to knock it he couldn't find the socket. Sig_______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
Zachary Sikorsky	Posted - 2010.05.02 13:57:00 - [558] Sry pals, don't think we'll ever see any fix. There was this optimistic "We'll probably not be able to get it in before Dominion" to ... silence... And lo and behold soon another expansion, walking in stations will be awesome. Hopefully they will give lolkets some nice skins so we can carry them around the lobby and use them for something.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.02 14:09:00 - [559] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 02/05/2010 14:09:59 Originally by: Zachary Sikorsky Sry pals, don't think we'll ever see any fix. There was this optimistic "We'll probably not be able to get it in before Dominion" to ... silence... And lo and behold soon another expansion, walking in stations will be awesome. Hopefully they will give lolkets some nice skins so we can carry them around the lobby and use them for something. Scope News - date - 14th January 2020 TERRORIST ATTACKS ON STATIONS CONTINUE Shortly after the release of Incarna three days ago, a new terrorist group of unknown origin began staging a series of attacks on shops and nightclubs in stations across new Eden. Scope News has acquired exclusive interviews with several witnesses "So there I was trying on my new uniform for the first time when I look out the window and see a Hawk hurtling into the rear of the station. It was terrifying. Local chat was just filled with spam... something about "THIS IS HOW YOU FIX A HAWK""? "I was just chilling in the strip club when this nutter calling herself "Duchess" or something charged in and detonated a phalanx rocket she had strapped to her back, it was insane! I dived behind the bar and it must've been made of sturdy stuff but the place was trashed" We now pass to our analyst Gypsio, who has a theory on the motivations behind this mysterious group "It would appear to me that the terrorists motivations are in fact religiously bent. Many years ago I bore witness to an emerging cult on a forum-based chat network, but the Jovians managing the system dismissed it even as it grew in size. Now I believe they are back. This theory would appear to be justified by their incomprehensible chant delivered with each attack, "Buffrawkets". We believe this 'Buffrawkets' is their god, and these attacks are carried out in his or her name for an unknown purpose. At this time we have no further information" Whoever these people are and whatever their case, we ask that all capsuleers be extra vigilant in preventing further attacks by the Buffrawkets cult. Scope News _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.05.02 23:20:00 - [560] Edited by: Amberlamps on 02/05/2010 23:20:55 Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 29/04/2010 17:27:51 Originally by: Amberlamps So with the reduction to sig radius bonus from t2 interceptor with his mwd + my missile skills. My missiles would easily have a small sig radius compare to that of his ship... He was flying directly towards me at 5kms... Yet I still only landed 2.3 damage? Small? Sigh. Come on. Learn how your weapons system works. Max-skilled Fury Heavy explosion radius = 161.3 m. Crusader signature radius with Inties V = 72 m. The missile has over twice the radius of the Crusader. The only thing that is "small" here is your degree of competence. You are whining that a weapon system designed to be used against battlecruisers isn't very effective against interceptors. What the hell did you expect? If you want your Cerberus to knock interceptors out of the sky with hilarious ease, use the appropriate weapon. That is, AMLs with Navy Bloodclaws. Expecting Fury Heavies to be effective against a bloody interceptor is just ****ed. So anyway... as I said I landed 2.3 damage. So you're still saying I'm a dribbling moron that I happened to be at FFA1 and Interceptor begins to fly towards me... With Skills + implants I have my missile Exp Radius as low as possible and then I open fire. ASSUMING he has interceptor V which I doubt he did at his low age at the time. I HAD expected to land some significant damage as he was flying directly towards me. You're saying its perfectly acceptable that with 5 fury missiles + Ship bonuses + Skills + Implants I still only managed to land 2.3 damage. You and your little friend are both unable to comprehend that that is completely ludicrous. It's not the fact my larger ammo type aren't landing the hits I wanted them to. Its the fact that 2.3 damage is the outcome of 5 furys... However If I was using any other weapon system It would hit a huge amount. Specifically Artillery would one hit a crusader. So before you once again spout out your personal attacks about me being a moron and telling me to use the correct weapon system. I hit UNDER 0.1% of my total volley damage. Of course that includes resists, however it shows how ludicrous that is. Where as most other weapon types (non missiles) would hit a drastically higher proportion of their damage as the ship was flying directly towards them. Without personal insults or any obvious advice on changing weapon.... Tell me how that seems to be viably fair? The impact alone of the missile should account for more than that. So... Gunnery - Tracking, Missiles - Explosion Velocity. Tracking 100% 0ms trav/rads-1 when someone is flying directly at you... tracking is out the window. Explosion velocity someone flys directly towards me... I'm always effected no matter what. Of course we can't have match for match otherwise there wouldn't be differences with our weapon types. However there is an obvious flaw in this, which the smallest missile type is still effected by such speed, where as small turrets can pretty much track anything within reason. Even large turrets can hit interceptors with extraordinary damage if there is no tracking involved. Like I said... No personal insults this time. Originally by:** Duchess Starbuckington Quote: You must be a dribbling moron too... Please refrain from insulting people who know what they're talking about when you're the fool that tried using furies on a Crusader. I suppose you've never been in that situation when you've just fired at someone for the sake of it. Of course not, you're perfect.

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.03 02:07:00 - [561] Quote: So... Gunnery - Tracking, Missiles - Explosion Velocity. Tracking 100% 0ms trav/rads-1 when someone is flying directly at you... tracking is out the window. Explosion velocity someone flys directly towards me... I'm always effected no matter what. You do realise this works both ways? No wait of course you don't. That's why I'm going to spell this out for you using nice simple words. Let's take an equivilent for that Cerb - a 720mm fitted Hurricane with tremor ammo fitted. That Crusader starts approaching, but oh look - this pilot has some transversal. Those 720s miss every shot. Sader gets in close and things get steadily worse from there. Now let's take a missile boat that has somebody competant flying it. That person promptly loads up navy ammo or precisions, and with the now drastically reduced velocity of the frigate thanks to orbiting (without factoring in scram and/or web) hits every shot for reasonable damage. And don't even get me started on what assault launchers do to frigates. That fight is only going one way. So to answer your childish question of how it's fair: Guns and missiles are different weapon systems that have their own seperate pros and cons in different situations. For a straight line approach with a smaller target, guns have the advantage. For a close up orbit with a smaller target, missiles (if you're using the right type) have the advantage. How big this advantage is depends entirely on the circumstances and whether the pilot of either ship is an idiot. But I would now like to ask that you take this fail to another thread, as this one is for fixing rockets and not an outlet for your dismal understanding of game mechanics. (And/or thinly veiled attempt at getting Caldari turned into unstoppable pwnmobiles). _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.05.03 02:11:00 - [562] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington "I was just chilling in the strip club when this nutter calling herself "Duchess" or something charged in and detonated a phalanx rocket she had strapped to her back, it was insane! I dived behind the bar and it must've been made of sturdy stuff but the place was trashed" I don't know why this situation would scare anyone.. all you'd need to do is jog at a brisk pace and you'd be fine. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.03 11:12:00 - [563] Originally by: Braitai Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington "I was just chilling in the strip club when this nutter calling herself "Duchess" or something charged in and detonated a phalanx rocket she had strapped to her back, it was insane! I dived behind the bar and it must've been made of sturdy stuff but the place was trashed" I don't know why this situation would scare anyone.. all you'd need to do is jog at a brisk pace and you'd be fine. ... TouchT _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Captain Muscles Caldari Clan Farthammer	Posted - 2010.05.03 12:29:00 - [564] BUFFRAWKETS!!!! pop Alright, well... I'm gonna go get a shower now. Oh, and just in cause you guys forget the terror I have instilled in your hearts with my fearful demonstration, I will be back tomorrow. Same time, same place. ____________________ Captain Muscles sez:
Mohenna Caldari Knights of the Dark	Posted - 2010.05.03 15:52:00 - [565] Well, usual trolling aside, it's clear that there are players with different expectations from rockets. Some would like the torpedo approach, of needing a friend with a web or two. Some would like the solo approach. As always there's some who would be ok with a combination - a small increase in both values. If you try and consider both sides of the matter you'll see that there are some good reasons for both arguments. Might it be that CCP keeps delaying because they themselves can't decide what the rockets should become of these two possibilities??
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.03 16:43:00 - [566] Quote: If you try and consider both sides of the matter you'll see that there are some good reasons for both arguments. There really aren't. It's straightforward: make rockets on par with other frigate weapons. The torpedo approach is utterly *****ed for three reasons: 1. We already have torpedos, and frigates that fire them. We don't need a cheap knock-off of them. 2. Ever heard of the Retribution? It's one of the least popular frigates in the game with a miniscule* (arguably non existant) nichT because it needs people to tackle for it. Repeating this mistake on rocket using ships would be further breaking what's already broken. 3. Most importantly, this would utterly screw game and racial balance. If rockets were a specialised weapon incapable of hitting, say, cruisers and below without a web, this would create effectively a whole new ship type - and as Gallente totally lack a rocket using ship and Minnie only have the lolworthy Breacher, it's a ship type denied to two out of four races. This gets even more ridiculous if it's just frigates they're incapable of hitting. Having to bring multiple ships to gank a single frigate is stupid on so many levels I don't even know where to start. So no, there really is no good reason for "torp-rockets". It'd be the equivilent of taking autocannons and nerfing the tracking to cruiser levels. I imagine that'd kick up quite a **storm and it's a dumb idea for the same reason as torp-ckets. _________________________________ Originally by:** Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.05.04 00:17:00 - [567] Edited by: Amberlamps on 04/05/2010 00:18:46 Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington So to answer your childish question of how it's fair: Guns and missiles are different weapon systems that have their own seperate pros and cons in different situations. For a straight line approach with a smaller target, guns have the advantage. For a close up orbit with a smaller target, missiles (if you're using the right type) have the advantage. How big this advantage is depends entirely on the circumstances and whether the pilot of either ship is an idiot.. So... Close up using the right would have to AML correct even though I've not once mentioned them in my previous posts? Not the Roflket you'd expect to have to use for short range small engagements. That is because explosion is completely **ed. So I need to fit my Caracal with AML to do damage to any frigates, because the frigates with missiles can't do damage equal damage to their own class. About your argument about gunnery with transversal. Load up EveHQ Load up the tracking addon and test it for yourself in different scenarios. Apply it to the game and it works a hell of a lot better using turrets that missiles trying to hit someone at speed. You do realise this barely works both ways? No wait of course you don't. That's why I'm going to spell this out for you using nice simple words. So we have an interceptor flying directly towards me... woot massive damage from my artillerys... Ok well as expected. Same scenario... missiles = Woah wtflowdps? So with a little trav, only a little atm... Still woot massive damage with the turret... Oh ** same woah wtflowdps from the missiles as always as the speed is exactly the same. Increase the traversal - A little lower damage from the turrets however you're still actually doing some significant damage... Oh wait I can also fit a module to enhance this "tracking" Sweet! Same scenario missiles... Oh wait still wtflowdps... Wait a second its always going to be wtflowdps... I have no counter, no modules and no manoeuvres. Interceptor gets in close and orbits... Turrets had a chance to kill it and most likely would of killed it. Missiles had no chance and even during orbit they still have no chance to land anything painful. End of the day, Explosion velocity sucks ass it needs balancing issues.. A Turret ship has the ability to manoeuvre in such a way to decrease the traversal however a missile ship once again has no advantage... Not only do missiles users have the incredible scenario of having a non functioning frigate based weapon system, we also have to wait ludicrous amounts of time in some cases for our missiles to land. Of course that is another matter due to the fact "missiles started to act strange" when they doubled their speed.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.04 00:39:00 - [568] I repeat: your hilarious incompetancy is a matter for another thread. Please post your whineage as such in features and suggestions, and not in the thread dedicated to fixing rockets. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Dreed Roberts	Posted - 2010.05.04 01:49:00 - [569] Originally by: Amberlamps Edited by: Amberlamps on 04/05/2010 00:18:46 stuff..... ok I shouldn't do this but I think you need some help. Firstly AML is the appropriate anti frigate weapon to fit on a CRUISER/BATTLECRUISER you have the cpu and powergrid so you fit them ok? Secondly missile explosion velocity is not the only factor that effects missile damage. sig radius explosion radius ratio is also important. In actual game mechanics once your target is going SLOWER than the explosion velocity there is no more DPS gain by further slowing that target. The same DOES NOT apply to sig radius : explosion velocity. Even after your target has a larger sig radius than your explosion radius further increase will add to your dps until you are doing max damage. Guess what? there is a module that increases your opponents sig radius. GASP! just like there is a module that increases your tracking if your using guns. So yeah dude really, go spend some time with the formulae have a good hard look at them and you will gain an understanding of how it all works. P.S using furies on an interceptor really aint going to work, now if we were having the same discussion where you had the same results with precision missiles....well we wouldn't be having that discussion cause you would have done a crapload more damage to them.
Baillif Red Mist Inc.	Posted - 2010.05.04 07:23:00 - [570] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 02/05/2010 14:09:59 Originally by: Zachary Sikorsky Sry pals, don't think we'll ever see any fix. There was this optimistic "We'll probably not be able to get it in before Dominion" to ... silence... And lo and behold soon another expansion, walking in stations will be awesome. Hopefully they will give lolkets some nice skins so we can carry them around the lobby and use them for something. Scope News - date - 14th January 2020 TERRORIST ATTACKS ON STATIONS CONTINUE Shortly after the release of Incarna three days ago, a new terrorist group of unknown origin began staging a series of attacks on shops and nightclubs in stations across new Eden. Scope News has acquired exclusive interviews with several witnesses "So there I was trying on my new uniform for the first time when I look out the window and see a Hawk hurtling into the rear of the station. It was terrifying. Local chat was just filled with spam... something about "THIS IS HOW YOU FIX A HAWK""? "I was just chilling in the strip club when this nutter calling herself "Duchess" or something charged in and detonated a phalanx rocket she had strapped to her back, it was insane! I dived behind the bar and it must've been made of sturdy stuff but the place was trashed" We now pass to our analyst Gypsio, who has a theory on the motivations behind this mysterious group "It would appear to me that the terrorists motivations are in fact religiously bent. Many years ago I bore witness to an emerging cult on a forum-based chat network, but the Jovians managing the system dismissed it even as it grew in size. Now I believe they are back. This theory would appear to be justified by their incomprehensible chant delivered with each attack, "Buffrawkets". We believe this 'Buffrawkets' is their god, and these attacks are carried out in his or her name for an unknown purpose. At this time we have no further information" Whoever these people are and whatever their case, we ask that all capsuleers be extra vigilant in preventing further attacks by the Buffrawkets cult. Scope News I was there and survived the rocket explosion by running on foot and this was enough to speed tank the explosion. Only my ass hairs were singed.

Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.04 08:11:00 - [571] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 04/05/2010 08:11:47 Originally by: Amberlamps stuff 1. this is ROCKET FIX thread not MISSILE WHINE thread 2. what Duchess said: you have NO CLUE how missile system works. Go educate yourself before you throw some stupid arguments 3. go educate yourself about strengths and weaknesses of each weapon systems - as it seems you dont even know this 4. you too can go and pair up with bellum for some "gallente fix" or "caldari fix". Here i even come up with an idea for you: "missiles always hit for full damage !!!", but go and do this in another thread. Thank you. EDIT: @ Mohenna. Pretty much what Duchess said. We already have missile system that NEEDS another ship with 1-2 webs and painters to kill frigs (hell... to kill cruisers). And there is absolutely no point in doubling up that role to rocket ships.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.04 12:29:00 - [572] Originally by: Dreed Roberts Stuff Well said, but please stop feeding this troll. It won't help if they're allowed to completely derail the thread. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.04 20:08:00 - [573] The "torpedo solution" involves giving rocket ships a similar level of paper DPS to that of blasters and is named after the changes they made to torps in QR, it has nothing at all to do with making rockets in to anti cruiser weapons. I like this solution and to explain why I'll start with this statement: "Rocket ships should be able to compete with but not be more powerful than their turret counterparts." (TL;DR If you only increase Ev and Er rockets will suck monkey balls against AF's or other well tanked frigates) There's two ways to make rockets more powerful, you can either increase the hit quality (increase Ev/Er) or you can increase the base damage. Neither of these choices are perfect and will have different effects depending on which ship classes you look at: Rockets Vs Interceptors: Against small, fast frigates an increase in hit quality will have more impact than an increase in base damage. This is because if you have a paper dps of 100 but are are only doing 25 dps to the target then doubling the damage to 200 paper dps only increases the applied damage to 50 dps, this still leaves you with a big deficit compared to the dps a claw or taranis can dish out. If we take the same rocket ship doing 100 dps on paper but instead of doubling the base damage we increase the hit quality to the point where no web is needed to hit an interceptor for full damage the effective DPS is 100. Against small, fast frigates increasing the hit quality will buff rockets more than an increase in base damage would. Rockets Vs AF's: Against relatively big, slow frigates the situation is reversed. If the rocket ship gets its base dps doubled from 100 to 200 but still has the current Ev and Er chances are you'll be doing over 150 applied dps in a combat situation. If instead of doubling the damage you increase the Ev and Er to the point where you can hit interceptors without using a web, the rocket ship will be doing 100 applied dps against an AF. Against big, slow frigates increasing the base damage will buff rockets more than an increase in hit quality would. I'm sure you all understand the above concepts, it's not rocket science or anything. Things get a little more complicated once you start doing turret comparisons however. A turret interceptor involved in a high speed dogfight with another ceptor will have massive fluctuations in its applied dps and can easily lose half its paper dps to tracking and falloff. The same interceptor fighting an AF should lose way less dps due to its ability to keep at its optimal range. While the dps turrets lose to tracking and falloff is going to vary greatly dependent on the game situation it's true to say that smaller, faster ships will take less turret damage than bigger, slower ships but a smart pilot can manipulate transversal to their advantage. This is the main reason for the superiority of turrets over rockets and brings me back to the original statement, "rocket ships should be able to compete with but not be more powerful than their turret counterparts." If you don't increase the raw damage of rocket ships to the point where they are comparable to turrets then they will always suck against AFs, if you do increase the damage to make them competitive against AFs you can not increase Ev/Er too much or rockets will become overpowered. The problem is that rockets do consistent damage irrespective of angular velocity so pilots have no way of manipulating their opponent to increase their DPS, combine this with the massive variations in speed between different frigates and it becomes clear the only way you can bring rockets in to line with turrets is to increase their DPS and force rocket users to carry a web. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.04 20:55:00 - [574] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 04/05/2010 20:56:10 @ above As much as i would love 200dps on malediction im actually sane person who doesnt run around with bellum-style ideas. Hint: with your idea kestrel would be close to 400dps. And thats just wrong. If you do 50% boost then its 300dps. But then malediction hitting for 20 or 30dps... does it really matter? 1 SAR can tank that. So in the end you dont improve hit quality as quality remains same, just DPS number goes up. Improving quality means more effective damage from same damage output (similiar to turret hit quality). And that means: better explo velocity. Also having CONSTANT 80-100dps would be MUCH better than having random 30-200dps numbers. Weapon system you can depend on >>>> random weapon system with huge dps possibility. And like before: if you want huge dps, go bombers. They already exist.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.04 23:08:00 - [575] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 04/05/2010 23:12:25 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 04/05/2010 20:56:10 @ above As much as i would love 200dps on malediction im actually sane person who doesnt run around with bellum-style ideas. Hint: with your idea kestrel would be close to 400dps. And thats just wrong. If you do 50% boost then its 300dps. But then malediction hitting for 20 or 30dps... does it really matter? 1 SAR can tank that. So in the end you dont improve hit quality as quality remains same, just DPS number goes up. Improving quality means more effective damage from same damage output (similiar to turret hit quality). And that means: better explo velocity. Also having CONSTANT 80-100dps would be MUCH better than having random 30-200dps numbers. Weapon system you can depend on >>>> random weapon system with huge dps possibility. And like before: if you want huge dps, go bombers. They already exist. Basically this. Quote: There's two ways to make rockets more powerful, you can either increase the hit quality (increase Ev/Er) or you can increase the base damage. Neither of these choices are perfect and will have different effects depending on which ship classes you look at: Uhh, no, there are three. Have you even read any of this thread? Well as you also seem to need it put in nice, simple words here it is: Step 1: Buff explosion velocity to sensible levels Step 2: Buff damage to sensible levels With me so far? Step 3: weapon that does reasonable dps with reasonable ability to hit small targets. By no means highest dps, but consistent, which makes it a viable choice compared to other weapons. There, that wasn't so hard was it? Now please take your abysmally thought out 400 dps Kestrel of doom bull** somewhere else. Edit: Actually no, I agree, your idea is the best thing ever. I've got 232 dps out of an obscene-dps fit rocket kessie right now, and eagerly await the ability to instakill a battleship with 5 tech 1 frigates once your rofl damage buff comes through. _________________________________ Originally by:** Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.05 01:25:00 - [576] Are you two smoking crack? I specifically stated that doubling the DPS and not touching the Ev/Er would be bad because "doubling the damage to 200 paper dps only increases the applied damage to 50 dps, this still leaves you with a big deficit compared to the dps a claw or taranis can dish out." Go back and read the last paragraph, I said "increase the raw damage of rocket ships to the point where they are comparable to turrets." It's not a hard statement to understand. Yes rockets need an increase to Ev/Er, I've never said otherwise but I did say bring them in line with torps. A raven with a scram and web will hit for full damage against most battleships you actually meet in game, unlike rockets which do not hit for full damage against scrammed and webbed frigates that you do meet in game. The torp philosophy is good but unlike with BS where you need to balance against MWD's you need to balance the Ev/Er of rockets against AB frigates. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Also having CONSTANT 80-100dps would be MUCH better than having random 30-200dps numbers. No it wouldn't for two reasons: 1) Those numbers are not random, the whole point of player skill is to maximize the potential of your ship. Can you imagine how dull eve would be if all weapons had such a narrow range of potential DPS? 2) Do you understand the missile formula? If rockets could hit a non webbed AB interceptor for 80 dps they would be doing a guaranteed 100 dps against every other frigate in the game, which is pretty dull in the first place but also leaves you woefully short of the turret ships that are hitting between 100 and 200 dps. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
Dreed Roberts	Posted - 2010.05.05 04:47:00 - [577] Edited by: Dreed Roberts on 05/05/2010 04:48:47 Edited by: Dreed Roberts on 05/05/2010 04:47:42 actually I have been running the numbers through a spreadsheet for a little while and I am a bit unsure about a explosion velocity buff. Firstly the way things stand at the moment a web gives a much bigger bonus to damage than a target painter, as a general rule this is reversed for most other missile types. However web range and rocket range are so similar perhaps this is why it has been set this way. Secondly one thing that has been missed (in the first and last 3 pages anyway, can't say about the rest) is that the explosion radius of rockets is much much lower than anything else, especially when compared to light missiles. As it stands rockets will do full damage to (stationary) pods and light drones, something no other class of missiles can. Perhaps this value should be raised along with an increase in explosion velocity? Although this would probably drive the balance towards TP away from webs. Thirdly what is this talk of needing to web cruisers to do damage to them? Running the numbers on my Kessie with my good, but not perfect skills I can hit a Loki for almost full damage (51 v's 55) when that Loki is speed and size fit (90m sig rad, 610 M/s AB). Your typical 135m 530m/s cruiser gets hit for full damage (although an AB Vaga only takes 42). Finally as far as I can tell rockets always out damage light missiles by 18-27% (better, 27%, against frigates worse against interceptors 18% and 25% against everything bigger). So really, what is the point of this thread? Because the way I read it rockets work the same way as all the other unguided missile weapons. So really any boost to rockets should be given to all other missiles or they will then be unbalanced against other missile types. Whether they are balanced against guns is a whole different issue that I am not going to go into. Below are typical values for various classes/situations. I can run the numbers to describe any particular situation you like, but the answers will be (qualitatively)the same. Class________________Signature__Velocity_____DPS SM_____________DPS Rockets Interceptor_____________32______650__________39.69952947________49.01435428 +nterceptor w/AB________32______1527.5_______23.69577472________28.26124881 Interceptor w/MWD_______72______3900_________21.95393361________26.05018965 Frigate_________________40______400__________60.90678794________77.38541511 Frigate w/AB____________40______940__________36.35392019________44.61975482 Frigate w/MWD___________240_____2400_________60.90678794________77.38541511 Cruiser_________________135_____220__________86.44760673________108.1359223 Cruiser w/AB____________135_____517__________86.44760673________108.1359223 Cruiser w/MWD___________810_____1320_________86.44760673________108.1359223 (The forum and editing fonts are different and hence my columns wont line up )
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2010.05.05 07:51:00 - [578] SMs do alpha, not dps. I am neutral towards a change in sms explo speed, but any dps change is wrong. Rockets compared to the other missiles isn't fair due to range, and the need to be in web range. The need to be in scram/web range, seen as you do as an advantage, or at least a synergy with the rocket range, is borderline troll imo. Finally your numbers are a bit off, you do need a web on an ABing cruiser, perhaps you're considering basic skills? The boosts to speed are a lot more than the boosts to explosion speed.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.05 08:00:00 - [579] Originally by: yani dumyat Are you two smoking crack? I specifically stated that doubling the DPS and not touching the Ev/Er would be bad because "doubling the damage to 200 paper dps only increases the applied damage to 50 dps, this still leaves you with a big deficit compared to the dps a claw or taranis can dish out." Go back and read the last paragraph, I said "increase the raw damage of rocket ships to the point where they are comparable to turrets." It's not a hard statement to understand. Yes rockets need an increase to Ev/Er, I've never said otherwise but I did say bring them in line with torps. This means your idea is even MORE stupid as it makes rockets WAY overpowered. Told you already: if you want to throw bellum style ideas go somewhere else. This thread is about balancing rockets and not some fantasy land "boost everything by 7658346%". Quote: A raven with a scram and web will hit for full damage against most battleships you actually meet in game, unlike rockets which do not hit for full damage against scrammed and webbed frigates that you do meet in game. The torp philosophy is good but unlike with BS where you need to balance against MWD's you need to balance the Ev/Er of rockets against AB frigates. You dont fly raven much dont you? It hits only around half of in-game battleships for full damage. Even ships as large as apocalypse get around 10% DPS reduction. Hell even the flying turd domi gets some reduction. Quote: No it wouldn't for two reasons: 1) Those numbers are not random, the whole point of player skill is to maximize the potential of your ship. Can you imagine how dull eve would be if all weapons had such a narrow range of potential DPS? Did you ever use rockets in combat? Once? I hope you know that player skill can not improve rocket hit quality because of how missiles work: ergo doesnt matter how you pilot your ship its only up to your ENEMY to decide how hard he will get hit. Also if you dont know this already most ships/weapons get uniform damage distibution (close to maximum dps) IF you know how to pilot your ship. In the end the only weapon system that cannot get static damage are rockets - because of above: its not up to you to decide how much damage enemy does, its up to him. Quote: 2) Do you understand the missile formula? If rockets could hit a non webbed AB interceptor for 80 dps they would be doing a guaranteed 100 dps against every other frigate in the game, which is pretty dull in the first place but also leaves you woefully short of the turret ships that are hitting between 100 and 200 dps. Also according to your previous statement its better to increase BOTH their DPS and explo velocity/explo radius values. Ummm - i think you are the one who tries to do some magical balancing yet who doesnt understand how formula works at all. Plus you dont really understand WHAT you want to do. But please go on: give PROPER numbers so we can actually work on them and criticize your idea even more. At the moment you only gave vague "up dps, change ev/er values" without any details what effects you expect from this. Go on, im waiting. So tell me exactly what DPS numbers you expect to get on: battleship (so pretty much max dps), on non webbed AB ceptor (1,7km/s 30ish sig), webbed ceptor (600m/s, 30ish sig)? Without this there is really no point in further discussing anything with you as your statements are as wide as "let there be world peace".
Dreed Roberts	Posted - 2010.05.05 08:15:00 - [580] Originally by: Yankunytjatjara SMs do alpha, not dps. I am neutral towards a change in sms explo speed, but any dps change is wrong. Rockets compared to the other missiles isn't fair due to range, and the need to be in web range. The need to be in scram/web range, seen as you do as an advantage, or at least a synergy with the rocket range, is borderline troll imo. Finally your numbers are a bit off, you do need a web on an ABing cruiser, perhaps you're considering basic skills? The boosts to speed are a lot more than the boosts to explosion speed. Rocket range is not fair how? all the other unguided have massively shorter ranges compared to their guided equivalent. What I meant was based on my observation that web increases DPS more than TP. Perhaps the ballance was set this way after the rocket range was chosen. Thus making it so you only had to fit one module not two (as in just a web that keeps target at your desired range and increases your DPS, as opposed to having to fit a TP for damage AND a web for maintaining range). Finally I am not sure how you mean my numbers are off. I think you will find the calculations are correct. But if you like, give me the example ship fits you want compared and I will run them again for your specific case. However you will see that rockets will do more DPS than a light missile regardless of the case.

Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.05 08:19:00 - [581] Originally by: Dreed Roberts Originally by: Yankunytjatjara SMs do alpha, not dps. I am neutral towards a change in sms explo speed, but any dps change is wrong. Rockets compared to the other missiles isn't fair due to range, and the need to be in web range. The need to be in scram/web range, seen as you do as an advantage, or at least a synergy with the rocket range, is borderline troll imo. Finally your numbers are a bit off, you do need a web on an ABing cruiser, perhaps you're considering basic skills? The boosts to speed are a lot more than the boosts to explosion speed. Rocket range is not fair how? all the other unguided have massively shorter ranges compared to their guided equivalent. There is huge difference between operating in whole web range (0-17km form HAMs and same from torps) and operating in 0-6km for rockets which is not even half of web range. Why 0-6km? Fit rocket ship, fly it in combat and you will see. Quote: What I meant was based on my observation that web increases DPS more than TP. Perhaps the ballance was set this way after the rocket range was chosen. Thus making it so you only had to fit one module not two (as in just a web that keeps target at your desired range and increases your DPS, as opposed to having to fit a TP for damage AND a web for maintaining range). You get outdamaged by ACs in all ranges while using rockets. Lasers just obliterate you in those distances. Hell even blasters with null will outdamage you up to circa 4km giving you only slight distance to take your advantage. Quote: Finally I am not sure how you mean my numbers are off. I think you will find the calculations are correct. But if you like, give me the example ship fits you want compared and I will run them again for your specific case. However you will see that rockets will do more DPS than a light missile regardless of the case. Try AB hacs not AB thorax (which is kinda one of slowest ships). Also the fact that you cant even get half dps on AB vaga says its all: how the F can FRIG WEAPON SYSTEM not damage CRUISER for full damage, no matter the fit? I so want to see small guns (even lasers) outtracked by AB cruiser.
Vigaz	Posted - 2010.05.05 09:03:00 - [582] Originally by: Deva Blackfire You get outdamaged by ACs in all ranges while using rockets. Lasers just obliterate you in those distances. Hell even blasters with null will outdamage you up to circa 4km giving you only slight distance to take your advantage. let me say that also small rails will outdamage rockets... and this is even more sad imo.
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.05 10:57:00 - [583] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Improving DPS in any way even while changing ev/er values will mean you create 400dps vs battleship kestrels. Kestrel has MORE dps than most turret frigs in this game, no need to double it. Ok I know for sure you're just trolling now, I don't have eft in front of me but I know a rocket kestrel with dual BCU's, CN rockets and lvl 5 skills does about 150 DPS, you've plucked this 400 figure out of your ass. If you're using officer mods, overheat and uber expensive implants to fit a kezzie then thrown the number about like we should be comparing it to standard T2 fit turret frigates then please stop posting. Even dual BCU's on a kestrel are unusual due to fitting constraints. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Did you ever use rockets in combat? Once? I hope you know that player skill can not improve rocket hit quality because of how missiles work: ergo doesnt matter how you pilot your ship its only up to your ENEMY to decide how hard he will get hit. Not only did I say this in my post at the bottom of the last page but I said it in two different ways in case the concept was hard to understand. Originally by: yani dumyat turrets....a smart pilot can manipulate transversal to their advantage. This is the main reason for the superiority of turrets over rockets ...The problem is that rockets do consistent damage irrespective of angular velocity so pilots have no way of manipulating their opponent to increase their DPS I've used rockets in game as well as testing them against a variety of targets in fights we staged specifically for the purpose of verifying the missile spreadsheet. What I lack is combat logs from turret users, it's easy enough to calculate that X turret will do Y damage in Z situation but harder to work out how often those situations occur in game. My own experiences of turrets are heavily biased towards autocannons so I can't say my logs are representative of turret users. As for exact numbers I'll post them when I've got my spreadsheets in front of me. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.05 11:22:00 - [584] Originally by: Dreed Roberts Rocket range is not fair how? all the other unguided have massively shorter ranges compared to their guided equivalent. Paper range is not the same thing as in game range. Launch vector and target vector can dramatically influence range. Good point about the Ev/Er balance affecting the TP / web balance but I'd have bones with this statement: Originally by: Dreed Roberts So really any boost to rockets should be given to all other missiles or they will then be unbalanced against other missile types. This would be true if all ship classes were the same but they're not. Cruisers and up rarely fit afterburners for pvp so arguing about AB vagas is stupid, when was the last time any of you saw a vaga with an afterburner? Most missiles are fine for what they do in game because of the targets they shoot at, rockets are different because of the proliferation of AB frigates since QR. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.05.05 11:24:00 - [585] Originally by: yani dumyat Cruisers and up rarely fit afterburners for pvp so arguing about AB vagas is stupid, when was the last time any of you saw a vaga with an afterburner? Never, I have however seen a couple of duel prop Cynabal's. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.05 11:25:00 - [586] Originally by: yani dumyat Originally by: Deva Blackfire Improving DPS in any way even while changing ev/er values will mean you create 400dps vs battleship kestrels. Kestrel has MORE dps than most turret frigs in this game, no need to double it. Ok I know for sure you're just trolling now, I don't have eft in front of me but I know a rocket kestrel with dual BCU's, CN rockets and lvl 5 skills does about 150 DPS, you've plucked this 400 figure out of your ass. Funny. My kestrel does 197dps right now. You know some kids on the block can use rage rockets, overheat AND implants. Its not like you will lose pod anyways. Quote: If you're using officer mods, overheat and uber expensive implants to fit a kezzie then thrown the number about like we should be comparing it to standard T2 fit turret frigates then please stop posting. Even dual BCU's on a kestrel are unusual due to fitting constraints. Ofc i am using 5% missile rof implant. And ofc im using overheat. Everyone can use those and they should be taken into account. If you dont use it its YOUR problem that you handicap yourself. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Did you ever use rockets in combat? Once? I hope you know that player skill can not improve rocket hit quality because of how missiles work: ergo doesnt matter how you pilot your ship its only up to your ENEMY to decide how hard he will get hit. Originally by: yani dumyat blahblahblahwordsblahblahblah i dont have anything to back up my ideas Again: come back when you actually have something more than :words: to discuss about. Till now you thrown ideas (cool, no problem with that) but you just tried to smash all discussion into "IM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG" tracks. So now im waiting for proof. Quote: Most missiles are fine for what they do in game because of the targets they shoot at, rockets are different because of the proliferation of AB frigates since QR. You know that there are PLENTY more issues other than rocket damage vs AB frigs? Ofc anyone checking this thread (even first 3 pages) would know this.
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2010.05.05 11:48:00 - [587] Edited by: Yankunytjatjara on 05/05/2010 11:55:00 Dreed roberts, 135 is typical for caldari, let's be fair and do calculations with the average of minmatar cruisers - nobody considers other cruisers good anyway. 105 stabber and 130 rupture. With the good ol' stabber, top skills, snakes and mindlinks I think you can even reduce damage without an AB :-/ Assuming you're sincere, rather than trolling, you still miss the point with the sms/rockets comparison. You're comparing alpha to dps. Just leave the sms and other missiles out of the thread please. We're comparing short range frigate weapons here. EDIT regarding cruisers with AB, wake up, it's the new fotm.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.05 11:53:00 - [588] And as clear post: other possibility is playing with DRF value. For example with DRF of 3 (current): 1700 / 30sig - 27% damage 500 / 30 sig - 57% damage 1200 / 115 sig - 75% damage (i dunno where did he find 50% reduction on vaga... assumed his numbers were correct) With DRF 1: 65% 83% 91% So speed does decrease damage from rockets but not that heavily. And web does almost 50% boost to dps on AB ceptor. With slight DPS boost (say 20%) we are looking at: 70DPS on AB ceptor, 90DPS on webbed+AB, circa 100dps at others (120dps max). Imo gets kinda heavy for AB/non webbed ship. This pretty much bumps whole damage one "bracket" up. AB ceptors get hit like webbed AB ceptors. Webbed AB ceptors get hit like MWD ceptors. No stupid uber-dps boats, damage (120dps at max) more-less on par with turrets (tad lower than turret users but better range, loses only to lasers on whole range but has tracking advantage). Needs web for uber fast combat but thats not bad i guess...
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.05 12:26:00 - [589] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 05/05/2010 12:30:41 Quote: Ok I know for sure you're just trolling now, I don't have eft in front of me but I know a rocket kestrel with dual BCU's, CN rockets and lvl 5 skills does about 150 DPS, you've plucked this 400 figure out of your ass. [Kestrel, Test] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Small Bay Loading Accelerator I Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I [empty rig slot] All 5 skills no implants: 232 dps overheated. The 400 dps figure is actually pretty reasonable if you factor a buff on the scale you're talking about to sheer damage. We'd also likely be seeing 300 dps Crows, as I just threw one together capable of doing 203. To reiterate: focusing completely on damage instead of a healthy balance between damage and velocity would produce tech 1 frigates that deal damage on par with stealth bombers. This is unless they wanted to go the whole way and rework the ships themselves at the same time, but I can't see them doing that for anything that's not the Vindicator. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.05 12:52:00 - [590] Originally by: Deva Blackfire actually im not sure if i understand the origin of DRF correctly. Is that another independent stat on every missile type or is it derivered from Er/Ev? Not sure how CCP originally came up with the DRF numbers but it can certainly be used as an independent stat, 3 Seems a surprisingly high number for rockets and I'm pretty sure any sensible solution will involve dropping the drf. I'll post numbers this evening, as much as the mud slinging is amusing I'll try and keep it to the bounds of a sensible discussion ^_^ Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington To reiterate: focusing completely on damage instead of a healthy balance between damage and velocity would produce tech 1 frigates that deal damage on par with stealth bombers. To reiterate: At no point have I ever advocated such a thing, why are you so fixated on proving that doubling the base damage without changing the Ev is a bad thing when I've only ever stated that this would be a bad thing? _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."

Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.05.05 16:13:00 - [591] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington [Kestrel, Test] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Small Bay Loading Accelerator I Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I [empty rig slot] Why are we talking about failfits? (Hint: try fitting anything useful in those mid slots. You might notice a slight lack of CPU.) As for the OMG 9999999 DPS KESTRAL!!!!!! issue, this is only a "problem" if you're too lacking in creativity to think of the obvious solution: boost rocket/light missile dps by changing ship bonuses. For example: Rockets and light missiles get an increase in explosion velocity and/or radius so that they can actually hit other frigates effectively. Rockets and light missiles get a small base dps increase to bring them in line with un-bonused turrets. The Kestrel (for example) gets no changes. The Crow gets a small increase in its damage bonus. The Hawk gets a major increase in its damage bonus, more grid/cpu, and the active tank bonus changed to shield resists. See how easy it is to give a huge dps increase to the ships that desperately need it (Hawk, Vengeance, Heretic) without turning the less-crippled ships into T1 bombers? -----------
RoCkEt X Hostile.	Posted - 2010.05.05 16:48:00 - [592] rocket speed? i'm pretty damn fast tbh
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.05.05 20:02:00 - [593] DRF is an arbitrary number that controls how intensely the % damage applied decreases when a target is going to fast. A high DRF means that the damage falls like a cliff. Significantly lowering rocket DRF could be part of a solution.
Dreed Roberts	Posted - 2010.05.05 21:59:00 - [594] Originally by: Gypsio III DRF is an arbitrary number that controls how intensely the % damage applied decreases when a target is going to fast. A high DRF means that the damage falls like a cliff. Significantly lowering rocket DRF could be part of a solution. Further more the unguided and damage variants have higher Drfs than the guided and precision variants. This is a value that each charge has not each launcher.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.05 22:21:00 - [595] Quote: As for the OMG 9999999 DPS KESTRAL!!!!!! issue, this is only a "problem" if you're too lacking in creativity to think of the obvious solution: boost rocket/light missile dps by changing ship bonuses It should be noted I did note the need for bonus changes. The failfit was just an example. (And yes, thanks to CPU the mids are limited to a grand total of AB, scram and... umm... named sensor booster? Yeah...) _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.05 22:22:00 - [596] Yeh i know its missile stat and that every missile type has different value. I wasnt just sure if was derivered from Er/Ev or if it was totally independent stat. Now i know its independent.
Dreed Roberts	Posted - 2010.05.06 02:13:00 - [597] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Quote: What I meant was based on my observation that web increases DPS more than TP. Perhaps the ballance was set this way after the rocket range was chosen. Thus making it so you only had to fit one module not two (as in just a web that keeps target at your desired range and increases your DPS, as opposed to having to fit a TP for damage AND a web for maintaining range). You get outdamaged by ACs in all ranges while using rockets. Lasers just obliterate you in those distances. Hell even blasters with null will outdamage you up to circa 4km giving you only slight distance to take your advantage. Quote: Finally I am not sure how you mean my numbers are off. I think you will find the calculations are correct. But if you like, give me the example ship fits you want compared and I will run them again for your specific case. However you will see that rockets will do more DPS than a light missile regardless of the case. Try AB hacs not AB thorax (which is kinda one of slowest ships). Also the fact that you cant even get half dps on AB vaga says its all: how the F can FRIG WEAPON SYSTEM not damage CRUISER for full damage, no matter the fit? I so want to see small guns (even lasers) outtracked by AB cruiser. er dude my numbers with the vaga were not percentages. They were damage per rocket. Here you go then all 5 v's all 5 AB cyanabal (110m, 380m/s) v's Kessie (no damage mods cause they wont change the ratio) max damage per rocket, 51.56 damage no prop, 51.56 damage AB (1075m/s), 39.15 or 76% and in the same situation the small missile does 128 max damage and 103 (80%) against the AB (I am buggered if I know how you think this is a reasonable comparison of ships though) Secondly guns always out damage missiles. Always, in every weapon size guns do more damage than the missile equivalent. Are you trying to sneak a missile buff in? So I am not sure what your point about guns out damaging rockets is. I really don't understand what you are getting at. Originally by: yani dumyat Originally by: Dreed Roberts So really any boost to rockets should be given to all other missiles or they will then be unbalanced against other missile types. This would be true if all ship classes were the same but they're not. Cruisers and up rarely fit afterburners for pvp so arguing about AB vagas is stupid, when was the last time any of you saw a vaga with an afterburner? Most missiles are fine for what they do in game because of the targets they shoot at, rockets are different because of the proliferation of AB frigates since QR. Well I was providing AB vagas as a worst case example. Rockets do full damage to all cruisers with a MWD or no prop. You are aware (everyone) that a MWD provides 0 protection from missiles unless you have a MWD signature reduction bonus? (ignoring the faction items) Sorry I think I am missing the point of this thread. Is it a) rockets do poor dps compared to short range guns? b) rockets are much worse than small missiles due to an error in their stats? c) rockets don't do enough damage to bigger ships? d) Rocket based ship are crap compared to gun based ships? if its a) then wake up and smell the coffee, all missiles do less damage than their gun equivalents. if it is b) then just run the numbers and you will see that they are not worse than small missiles. if it is c) then nor do small missiles. if it is d) then I totally agree, however I think it has more to do with the the ships themselves and missiles in general than rockets in particular. Can anyone give me an appropriate transversal speed (and range) for a gunship fighting a vaga? I want to run the comparison and see how much damage reduction guns suffer in the same situation.
Dreed Roberts	Posted - 2010.05.06 03:02:00 - [598] Hang on I thought of e! e) rockets and small/light/standard missiles are not balanced compared to other missiles against their designated class? if its e) then I am not totally sure I would need to run the numbers to get the comparisons out. However one thing I have noticed is that there is not much difference in DRF between smalls and meds. Perhaps a reduction in DRF for both small missile chrage types would be an appropriate way of boosting DPS against small fast targets without making them BBQ above...
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.05.06 05:00:00 - [599] Originally by: Dreed Roberts Sorry I think I am missing the point of this thread. Do you use rockets? There's a difference between looking at stats and how they actually function in the game. SML's do get similar reductions in damage vs fast targets. The reason people do not complain about them as much is because they have 4 times the range, and they travel faster. This is a similar, proportional difference between HAM's and HML's but it's more of an issue at frig level because... A. It puts you in neut/scram/web range B. The high speed of frigates compared with the travel speed of rockets can cut more into their range. C. Tracking of other long range weapons, rails/arty/beams is a big issue with fast long range frigates like ceptors, something SML users don't have to worry about. I think SML's could use a small boost as well actually, but they're not nearly as broken as rockets. The last page or so of this thread has gotten a bit out of control TBH. A few people got the impression that Yani was saying something he wasn't, it actually sounds like people have similar ideas on how to fix the problems with rockets. Slight boost to DPS, but more importantly improve their ability to hit faster targets, either boosting ER, EV, or DRF. I think a big issue with rockets that hasn't been discussed much here is that in the right set of circumstances,the fact that rockets do not require tracking is a huge advantage. But, that advantage can't be utilised by all ships Originally by: Deva Blackfire You get outdamaged by ACs in all ranges while using rockets. Lasers just obliterate you in those distances. Hell even blasters with null will outdamage you up to circa 4km giving you only slight distance to take your advantage. This is not always true. You may not be able to fly manually to increase rocket DPS, but you can fly in such a way as to decrease your opponants dps, without impacting your own damage output. A laser boat will have tracking problems below it's optimal. If it flies in a straight line to decrease the damage it's taking from rockets, it's own tracking will be terrible if it's being orbited at 500m by a faster opponant. Whereas if it turns to try and reduce transversal, it's own velocity will drop and will begin to take more damage. Rockets have better range than small AC's. If ambits+barrage are employed, that cuts into their DPS and tracking. What all this means is that a ship's ability to dictate range impacts a rocket boat's effectiveness on two levels. If it can't do that, not only will you do less damage, but you'll take more damage as well. A scram/web/rocket fit Malediction will beat any MWD Crusader, and most Claws. It's usefulness is quite situational though, and if I'm in a fleet I'm usually packing a long point/scram with AC's, as rockets are useless without the web. Although I don't fly it, I'd say a hookbill would probably make a semi viable rocket boat as well, given it's number of mid slots. The others either lack slots or speed to make up for the abysmal ER that rockets have. I don't know why anyone would fly a rocket Crow over a Malediction. You need to be in scram/web range so the velocity bonus is a waste, 20% extra damage doesn't make up for having a wafer thin tank, and it's slower. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.06 09:15:00 - [600] Quote: Secondly guns always out damage missiles. Always, in every weapon size guns do more damage than the missile equivalent. Are you trying to sneak a missile buff in? So I am not sure what your point about guns out damaging rockets is. I really don't understand what you are getting at. They do i agree. But like i said in one of my posts earlier - not to such an extent. Rockets are close range missiles, yes? So lets compare them to HAMs and torps (in their own weight classes). No drones in comparison. Torps on raven (6x siege t2, CN ammo): 537 dps. Geddon (7x megapulse, AN MF) 517dps. Mega (7x neutron blaster, CN AM): 537 dps. So all in all raven isnt the weakest of them all. Torps actually sit in line with other weapon systems (well are even tad better due to 1 less launcher being comparable to 7 guns) and only drones on other ships give them huge advantage. Still its around 10% difference from top damage dealers. HAMs: Sac (CN HAM): 282dps, Zealot (hvy pulse + multi) 346dps, Vaga (220 + RF EMP): 289dps. So again kinda in line (zealot since 5th turret always had kinda large dps numbers). But even against zealot thats only 20% difference. Rockets: Diction (CN gremlin): 60dps. Crusader (DPL + AN MF): 135. Ranis (neutron) 156. Claw (3x 150mm RF EMP): 117. So against claw thats almost 50% difference. 55% against sader. 62% against ranis. I know all 3 are combat ceptors and maled is tackle ceptor but still... it pales in comparison to other ships in class especially if you look at it knowing that HAMs and torps are competetive. Vengeance 78dps. Jaguar (3x 150mm) 117dps.Harpy (4x electron blaster - dunno what harpies use) 134 dps. Against jag thats 35% difference. Against harpy 42%. So again - in its own ship class (and i cant call it "tackle AF" this time) rockets are waaay behind. So even excluding fix to explo velocity/DRM/whatever rockets need plain DPS boost. The 20% i proposed would give veng 94dps. Still behind but falling only 20% short of jag. Diction 72dps... thats still lagging way behind. Dunno - this + 10% damage boost on diction instead of 5%? Anyways wanted only to show that missiles in their own ship classes work ok. Except rockets which are far behind.

onetoke overtheline	Posted - 2010.05.06 11:02:00 - [601] this forums over a year old, get over it
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.06 11:28:00 - [602] Originally by: onetoke overtheline this forums over a year old, get over it Troll elsewhere please. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
S'qarpium D'igil	Posted - 2010.05.06 16:04:00 - [603] Where is the rockets hotfix?
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.05.06 22:20:00 - [604] Quote: Vengeance 78dps. Jaguar (3x 150mm) 117dps.Harpy (4x electron blaster - dunno what harpies use) 134 dps. Against jag thats 35% difference. Against harpy 42%. So again - in its own ship class (and i cant call it "tackle AF" this time) rockets are waaay behind. So even excluding fix to explo velocity/DRM/whatever rockets need plain DPS boost. The 20% i proposed would give veng 94dps. Still behind but falling only 20% short of jag. Diction 72dps... thats still lagging way behind. Dunno - this + 10% damage boost on diction instead of 5%? Anyways wanted only to show that missiles in their own ship classes work ok. Except rockets which are far behind. I'm not sure what kind of fits you've got running, but the damage difference is much worse than that. As far as damage on my Af's go, I've got my Vengeance pushed to 107 dps, Jag does 165, a blaster Harpy does 190, and my Enyo does 220(with a rocket launcher btw). Right off the bat you'll notice that the Enyo does 100% more dps, the Harpy does 80% more, and the Jaguar does 60% more against the Vengeance. And thats not counting the fact that the explosion velocity of rockets makes it so they cant even hit their AF counterparts for full damage unless they are dual webbed and target painted. As far as the other AF's that aren't listed, they all beat the Vengeance by at least 60% if not greater. Except for the Hawk, because the Hawk uses rockets. I'm not particularly sure, but either all of the other AF's are extremely overpowered, or rockets are extremely broken. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.06 23:43:00 - [605] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 06/05/2010 23:43:20 It was stated in my post: clear setups with only guns/launchers (no damage mods) and no drones. Only to compare gun/launcher damage ability. If i were to use some stupid numbers i could compare veng to blaster ishkur (300+? cant remember) or maled to blaster ranis + drones + stuff (also 250+dps).
Xyfu Minmatar Shadow's of Ezra On the Rocks	Posted - 2010.05.07 10:51:00 - [606] Originally by: RoCkEt X rocket speed? i'm pretty damn fast tbh Took you 20 pages to get here. =P _____ ^ That is a sig line. It should be there without me having to put one in.
Oram Nyx Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2010.05.07 12:09:00 - [607] /I support this
Mallariah	Posted - 2010.05.07 18:24:00 - [608] were rockets fixed yet?
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.07 19:28:00 - [609] I've done some in game testing to provide data on the damage reduction against orbiting ships, the spreadsheet can be downloaded at http://www.4shared.com/file/4eFV-YTR/rockets_again.html (can't linkify it because the forum censors the address ) Originally by: Notes I found Stafen's modifier to be slightly out so changed it from 0.9175 to 0.215, this brought the spreadsheet in line with the results of in game testing, the original modifier is noted at the top of the spreadsheet in case you want to change it back. Minmatar ships were used because my toon with lvl 5 navigation skills only flys matari ships. You can alter the damage comparison chart by entering a new number in the "% change" column, the top number will alter rocket damage and the bottom number will alter turret damage. I've suspected for a while that people have been taking Stafen's original spreadsheet then checking EFT to get the velocity and sig radius of a frigate and dropping it in to the spreadsheet. This tends to produce unrealistic numbers because orbit speeds are much lower than straight line speeds. EG: Webbed AB rifter in a straight line gets 37% damage reduction Webbed AB rifter orbiting at 7,500m gets 37% damage reduction Webbed AB rifter orbiting at 500m gets 20% damage reduction This has significant implications when trying to work out the stats rockets should have. If the rifter in the above example wants to get the full 37% damage reduction it will have to sit out at 7,500m with barrage and will be doing roughly 50% less damage in game than it's EFT damage with RF EMP loaded. A quick analysis of my damage logs shows that when flying rifters with RF EMP I lose about 20% of my potential DPS to tracking and falloff, that is in no way a scientific number and was only tested for 3 fights plus I've not got perfect gunnery skills so comments from other turret users would be appreciated. For now I'm working on the premise that to compare rockets with turrets I need to reduce the EFT damage of turret ships by 20% to compensate for tracking and falloff. After playing with the spreadsheet for a while I've come to the conclusion the way to make rockets competitive but not overpowered would be: Increase base damage by 45%* Increase Ev to 120 m/s Decrease DRF to 1.5 *The 45% number was based on reducing the EFT damage of turret ships by 20% so if I'm wrong on that estimate the 45% figure will be wrong too. Try putting those numbers in the spreadsheet and see what you think, It means rocket AFs will still have slightly lower applied DPS than turret ones, which is as it should be because rocket AFs get a tanking bonus. Afterburners are still effective tanking modules but webbed AB frigates will be hit for full damage if they orbit at 500m and get a slight damage reduction if they go in a straight line. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.07 22:39:00 - [610] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 07/05/2010 22:40:32 That actually seems pretty reasonable to me. On the Kestrel thing: Personally I think just knock it down to 5% damage all round and have a second bonus to shield. Better still give it a 4th mid and finally give the middle finger to the stupid tier system. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.

Beronarr	Posted - 2010.05.08 11:31:00 - [611] Did they fix the rockets already?
Maeve Kell	Posted - 2010.05.08 13:41:00 - [612] Edited by: Maeve Kell on 08/05/2010 13:42:18 isnt a weapon system that can hit while you fly like 15 km/s imba? isnt it good that it does no reasonable damage.. i dont want my cruisers to be ****ed by crows. kthxbye the one thing i learned in eve in all the years is: eft numbers dont tell anything, the damage that hits the target is important
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.08 14:47:00 - [613] Originally by: Maeve Kell Edited by: Maeve Kell on 08/05/2010 13:42:18 isnt a weapon system that can hit while you fly like 15 km/s imba? isnt it good that it does no reasonable damage.. i dont want my cruisers to be ****ed by crows. kthxbye the one thing i learned in eve in all the years is: eft numbers dont tell anything, the damage that hits the target is important Clueless troll warning. Dont read it can cause brain damage.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.05.08 14:55:00 - [614] Originally by: Maeve Kell the one thing i learned in eve in all the years is: eft numbers dont tell anything, the damage that hits the target is important er right, okay
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.08 15:50:00 - [615] Originally by: Maeve Kell isnt a weapon system that can hit while you fly like 15 km/s imba? I wholeheartedly agree, as a solution to this nano ships should be made fast enough to outrun all turret ammunition. Due to turret damage being instantaneous this may result in dramiels traveling backwards in time. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.05.09 08:33:00 - [616] Bamp. ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told. ◕◡◕
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.09 21:07:00 - [617] bump. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.05.10 00:07:00 - [618] I heard a rumour that rockets were still broken, C/D? Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.10 10:45:00 - [619] Originally by: Braitai I heard a rumour that rockets were still broken, C/D? C In recent testing it was shown that a eunuch could shoot further than rage rockets. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
PinkGirl	Posted - 2010.05.10 11:49:00 - [620] Originally by: Dreed Roberts Originally by: Deva Blackfire Here you go then all 5 v's all 5 AB cyanabal (110m, 380m/s) v's Kessie (no damage mods cause they wont change the ratio) max damage per rocket, 51.56 damage no prop, 51.56 damage AB (1075m/s), 39.15 or 76% If someone need to calculate missiles damage reduction - use MDRC (MissilesDamageRedusingCalculator) For example MDRC show 75,93342% You can download MDRC here http://forum.eve-ru.com/index.php?showtopic=44722&hl=

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.10 22:05:00 - [621] Bump. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Allen Ramses Caldari Zombicidal Mania Reckoning.	Posted - 2010.05.10 22:57:00 - [622] Originally by: yani dumyat snip Holy Christ! Someone is finally looking at more than raw stats! Apocalypse is nigh, C/D? Quote: Increase base damage by 45%* Increase Ev to 120 m/s Decrease DRF to 1.5 The actual base damage increase is 50% (for light missiles, as well). The EV becomes somewhat redundant after DRF comes into play, and we don't want to achieve 100% damage so easily. Ceptors should be very hard to hit, but ABing ships should not. The only way I would see any way of making this less of a problem is to attach a 30% signature bloom to ABs. It was foolish of CCP not to consider this during the nano nerf. Also, don't forget the velocity issue. Rockets also suck because many ships can outrun them. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.05.11 03:12:00 - [623] Originally by: Allen Ramses Also, don't forget the velocity issue. Rockets also suck because many ships can outrun them. This is probably the only useful thing you've said. 50% increased damage for lights? Great, so AML Caracals will own frigates EVEN HARDER than they do already. Balancing lights is actually quite difficult because of the fact that they're used in AML launchers as well. 30% sig bloom when an AB is active? Maybe if they give them 30% more speed as well, otherwise no. AB's are used to tank cruisers, which is already hard enough. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.05.11 08:43:00 - [624] Originally by: Braitai 50% increased damage for lights? Great, so AML Caracals will own frigates EVEN HARDER than they do already. Balancing lights is actually quite difficult because of the fact that they're used in AML launchers as well. That's straightforward enough to do simply by fiddling with AML/SML RoF.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.05.11 08:53:00 - [625] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Braitai 50% increased damage for lights? Great, so AML Caracals will own frigates EVEN HARDER than they do already. Balancing lights is actually quite difficult because of the fact that they're used in AML launchers as well. That's straightforward enough to do simply by fiddling with AML/SML RoF. true enough I guess but that would mean SML's have a higher ROF than AML's. Fiddling with lights will be problematic. Getting even close to the theoretical damage/range of lights using beams/arty/rails requires t2 ammo that messes with your tracking, so it's not as if other long range weapons are clearly out in front of lights. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.05.11 11:05:00 - [626] Originally by: Braitai true enough I guess but that would mean SML's have a higher ROF than AML's. Fiddling with lights will be problematic. Getting even close to the theoretical damage/range of lights using beams/arty/rails requires t2 ammo that messes with your tracking, so it's not as if other long range weapons are clearly out in front of lights. Oh, I've just noticed that this was in response to Allen's insane OCD MUST MAEK PRITTY PATTURNS OF NUMBERS balancing proposals. I'm fairly ambivalent on SMLs atm, their damage against an ABing target isn't too good but their range is so great that I'm not sure we should expect it to be. If SML changes were to be made, I'd be looking more at the PG/CPU of SMLs themselves, really - they're really a pain to fit. But you could argue that this is just a ship problem (e.g., Hawk).
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.11 11:50:00 - [627] Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: yani dumyat snip Holy Christ! Someone is finally looking at more than raw stats! Apocalypse is nigh, C/D? C, I will be the hookbill of the apocalypse riding along side ECM, Nano and Nerfbat. Originally by: Allen Ramses The actual base damage increase is 50% (for light missiles, as well). The EV becomes somewhat redundant after DRF comes into play, and we don't want to achieve 100% damage so easily. Ceptors should be very hard to hit, but ABing ships should not. AB was intended as a tanking mod during the QR changes and has a lot of drawbacks for ships that only have 3 mids and need to tackle stuff. These screenshots show what would happen if the numbers were altered as I suggested: rifter.jpg claw.jpg damage chart.jpg Ev is certainly not redundant even with a DRF of 1.5, I think the % of damage reduction is about right in those pics but I'm not greatly confident about damage reduction of turrets so 45% base damage increase to rockets may be wrong. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.11 12:04:00 - [628] Originally by: Braitai Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Braitai 50% increased damage for lights? Great, so AML Caracals will own frigates EVEN HARDER than they do already. Balancing lights is actually quite difficult because of the fact that they're used in AML launchers as well. That's straightforward enough to do simply by fiddling with AML/SML RoF. true enough I guess but that would mean SML's have a higher ROF than AML's. Fiddling with lights will be problematic. Getting even close to the theoretical damage/range of lights using beams/arty/rails requires t2 ammo that messes with your tracking, so it's not as if other long range weapons are clearly out in front of lights. The problem isn't AML's it's destroyer class ships - flycatcher with 50% more damage on light missiles . If you've ever tried to put arties on a rifter or claw you'll know that LM ships are in a different league when it comes to ranged frigates, on the other hand if you boosted small arties to the point where an arty claw was viable then there'd be some absurd thrasher fits going about. I'd love to see more viable ranged frigates than just the crow, harpy (and to some extent ishkur) but it would need a complete reworking of the destroyer class so we're getting a bit off topic. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.11 12:33:00 - [629] Quote: just a ship problem Maybe if it was just the Hawk, but can you think of any ship that has an easy time fitting a full set of standards? I don't really see much harm in knocking the grid reqs down to 6 (before skills), especially as the T2 versions in particular are really CPU hungry on top of that. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.05.11 12:46:00 - [630] Originally by: Gypsio III Oh, I've just noticed that this was in response to Allen's insane OCD MUST MAEK PRITTY PATTURNS OF NUMBERS balancing proposals. I lol'ed Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.11 20:22:00 - [631] Back to the top. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.05.12 08:43:00 - [632] Page 2? Blasphemy! _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Number 17 Caldari COLD-Wing	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:04:00 - [633] Don't have time to log in test server, have they fixed rockets yet?
Drenan State War Academy	Posted - 2010.05.12 12:13:00 - [634] Originally by: Number 17 Don't have time to log in test server, have they fixed rockets yet? Nope
S'qarpium D'igil	Posted - 2010.05.13 00:40:00 - [635] Fix Rockets. We will not relent on this, CCP.
Allen Ramses Caldari Zombicidal Mania Reckoning.	Posted - 2010.05.13 01:42:00 - [636] Originally by: Braitai 50% increased damage for lights? Great, so AML Caracals will own frigates EVEN HARDER than they do already. Balancing lights is actually quite difficult because of the fact that they're used in AML launchers as well. 30% sig bloom when an AB is active? Maybe if they give them 30% more speed as well, otherwise no. AB's are used to tank cruisers, which is already hard enough. The problem there is not lights, it's AMLs. They're a cruiser class weapon, but have the same tracking as a frigate class weapon. A light missile buff would not be a problem if AMLs had a 60% explosion velocity reduction (still twice the tracking capability as heavies). Last I checked, dual 150s didn't have the same tracking as 150s. Also, a 30% bloom isn't unreasonable for ABs. It would be one thing if it was the same as the velocity modifier, but this is 30%. The increased damage/hit quality mitigation would still be increased by 59%, which is pretty good. Originally by: Gypsio III Oh, I've just noticed that this was in response to Allen's insane OCD MUST MAEK PRITTY PATTURNS OF NUMBERS balancing proposals. You know what? **** you too, pal. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2010.05.13 13:30:00 - [637] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 13/05/2010 13:29:45 The leaked Patch Note mentions nothing about AF and rockets _______ With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made. We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have. - John Smedley, CEO of Sony Online Entertainment
Captain Mastiff	Posted - 2010.05.13 15:24:00 - [638] Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 13/05/2010 13:29:45 The leaked Patch Note mentions nothing about AF and rockets Honestly though, did you expect CCP to bother fixing Roflkets and Assaultfails?
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc	Posted - 2010.05.13 18:45:00 - [639] Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 13/05/2010 13:29:45 The leaked Patch Note mentions nothing about AF and rockets Don't panic, there has only been eighteen months, three expansions and numerous patches since rockets got borked in their latest iteration in Quantum Rise. We don't want CCP to rush in to anything. After all, bombs took 24 months to fix, Black Ops are still broken and they came with Trinity so rockets are just following the curve here.
egegergergsdgedgege	Posted - 2010.05.13 20:36:00 - [640] Hey guys, They are implementing PI at the moment. They dont have time to fix things. But dont worry they will abandon PI after this expansion like every other thing they did add to this game befor.

Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.05.13 22:52:00 - [641] fixing rockets is one of those things that an intern could do in first day on the job. And that's assuming he knows nothing about EVE database and has to learn the appropriate commands and practice on SiSi first. The excuse "we are too busy to fix this" only works on those who are completely ignorant of how computers work. This fix is database change only, and SQL database at that. The only other excuse is that they don't play their own game well enough to fully comprehend the problem, and thus have no idea what a solution would be, and at same they are too distrustful/paranoid to accept public opinion. That's pure incompetence thru and thru Same goes for Cyno effects, only it's a little more complex
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.14 11:57:00 - [642] Did they change 2 numbers yet? _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.14 11:58:00 - [643] Originally by: van Uber Don't panic, there has only been eighteen months, three expansions and numerous patches since rockets got borked in their latest iteration in Quantum Rise. We don't want CCP to rush in to anything. After all, bombs took 24 months to fix, Black Ops are still broken and they came with Trinity so rockets are just following the curve here. The poor hawk was born disabled but despite CCP having access to the best drugs and medicine they continue to let it suffer and have done for years. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
Captain Muscles Caldari Clan Farthammer	Posted - 2010.05.14 17:27:00 - [644] Edited by: Captain Muscles on 14/05/2010 17:29:41 rockets fly past quiet, they miss their target: the Hawk forgotten Edit: correction ____________________ Captain Muscles sez:
venariel Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.05.14 21:24:00 - [645] did they fix rockets yet?
Cloora APEX Unlimited APEX Conglomerate	Posted - 2010.05.14 21:45:00 - [646] Originally by: Captain Muscles Edited by: Captain Muscles on 14/05/2010 17:29:41 rockets fly past quiet, they miss their target: the Hawk forgotten Edit: correction LOL awesome Haiku! FIX ROCKETS!!!
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.14 22:24:00 - [647] I fire my rockets Their explosion is outrun C C P Fix please _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Allen Ramses Caldari Zombicidal Mania Reckoning.	Posted - 2010.05.14 23:57:00 - [648] Damage per second This is the biggest problem it outweighs all else ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.15 01:03:00 - [649] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Historically, we tend to do most of our game balancing work during the summer generally as things are quieter then for the teams, especially design. Internally we have done some work on assault frigates and rockets with discussion on EAF and Black ops or tech II ammo closely following it to give an indicator of our balancing backlog. Source Would've been nice to get some word in this thread but hey. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.15 12:25:00 - [650] Page 2 thread has reached This is unnacceptable Back to the top now _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.

Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.05.15 18:11:00 - [651] I feel optimistic today, so I'm gonna say the real reason for them delaying the expansion is so they can fix rockets. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
xChevalierx	Posted - 2010.05.15 20:14:00 - [652] It's been like a year and a half. Has ccp looked at this thread and changed 2 numbers yet?
Bad Messenger Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2010.05.16 06:53:00 - [653] Boosting rockets is boost for caldari and that is not possible to boost caldari now. So stop whining about rockets and fly something else.
HeliosGal Caldari	Posted - 2010.05.16 09:48:00 - [654] then give the khandids a rocket boost modifier give the useless afs a speed boost ( retribution but not the vengence) Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.16 09:53:00 - [655] Originally by: Bad Messenger Boosting rockets is boost for caldari and that is not possible to boost caldari now. So stop whining about rockets and fly something else. Troll elsewhere please. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Oku Kee'lus Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.16 12:58:00 - [656] Come and take a trip in my rocket ship We'll have a lovely afternoon Kiss the world goodbye and away we fly Destination moon
Usul Atreides	Posted - 2010.05.16 15:39:00 - [657] El Bumpo.
S'qarpium D'igil	Posted - 2010.05.17 04:05:00 - [658] Oh well.. looks like we're waiting another year before we'll hear any more news regarding rockets and AFs... Originally by: CCP Chronotis IMO we have not really broken any promise as when we state the issue is deferred, its deferred with no set new release window (this is generally always the case). The patch and release schedule is determined by many factors, however we can see why you might infer 'post-dominion' as 'immediately following dominion' and no matter how many disclaimers we add to our posts, they never seem to be enough. It does suck that we have not been able to slot the assault frigate and rocket reviews into Tyrannis and that those of you eagerly awaiting it will need to wait longer but such as the limitation of pipeline bandwidth. Historically, we tend to do most of our game balancing work during the summer generally as things are quieter then for the teams, especially design. Internally we have done some work on assault frigates and rockets with discussion on EAF and Black ops or tech II ammo closely following it to give an indicator of our balancing backlog. We can never promise at such an early stage when any change will arrive on tranquility but we are aware of the issues and making progress. As soon as the dust settles from Tyrannis we will look to give you an updated status on the many issues we are looking into and where they stand. from here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1317960
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.05.17 05:20:00 - [659] This is really disappointing, it's almost enough for me to take a break and come back when CCP sort their **** out. I trained for rockets just before QR came out, and I've flown a Malediction in about 90% of my PVP engagements. TBH the whole training aspect of this game is one of it's greatest weaknesses. You're not working for your skill points, you're buying a character incrementally, it's not much different to EBAY'ing, and when it comes to rockets people have been short changed for a long time. They should just ditch training completely. Buy a book, add the skill, done. Slightly OT suggestion but it's not as if it would be implemented anyway. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Rip Striker	Posted - 2010.05.17 05:35:00 - [660] Edited by: Rip Striker on 17/05/2010 05:46:59 Why is there no correction to the obvious failrockets in Failrannis expansion? **** you CCP!

Mohenna Caldari Knights of the Dark	Posted - 2010.05.17 08:32:00 - [661] Edited by: Mohenna on 17/05/2010 08:35:02 The promises are getting vaguer: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=replyquote&threadID=1317960&line=5 Originally by: CCP Chronotis IMO we have not really broken any promise as when we state the issue is deferred, its deferred with no set new release window (this is generally always the case). The patch and release schedule is determined by many factors, however we can see why you might infer 'post-dominion' as 'immediately following dominion' and no matter how many disclaimers we add to our posts, they never seem to be enough. It does suck that we have not been able to slot the assault frigate and rocket reviews into Tyrannis and that those of you eagerly awaiting it will need to wait longer but such as the limitation of pipeline bandwidth. Historically, we tend to do most of our game balancing work during the summer generally as things are quieter then for the teams, especially design. Internally we have done some work on assault frigates and rockets with discussion on EAF and Black ops or tech II ammo closely following it to give an indicator of our balancing backlog. We can never promise at such an early stage when any change will arrive on tranquility but we are aware of the issues and making progress. As soon as the dust settles from Tyrannis we will look to give you an updated status on the many issues we are looking into and where they stand. Apparently the summer could give us hope. Although frankly with the little number of features Tyrannis has, I'd expect the next expansion to be more feature-y, and less balance-y... :-/ Edit: also, it seems that as usual, the hammer will be used: not a tweak but a rework. They are mindstorming the rockets folks. I feel already screwed.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.17 11:27:00 - [662] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 17/05/2010 11:27:05 Seriously? Id prefer if they said "**** off, we will never fix this" instead of "sometime after XYZ expansion". Atm the amount of stuff that should be reworked, fixed or updated after "XYZ expansion" is already so huge that it can fill 3 expansions ALONE. But yeah, bring on incarna, half-working feature which will be used for 1-2 months before people get bored and wait for obvious bug fixes and stuff in "near future" which never happens. As for rockets - yeah i read about that "rework". And its again roll of the dice: balanced? screwed up? overpowered? No idea but surely not just easily fixed. Also its kinda funny that games-workshop (the company that does warhammer tabletop) can fix some bugs in their games FASTER than CCP can. For those who dont know: they release nev version of old armier every 5 years or so and in meantime give some erratas out. Still - its more often than CCP does it. And i always thought that digital distribution and digital products can be fixed on spot. I was so wrong all that time...
Zendoren Aktaeon Industries United Star Federation	Posted - 2010.05.17 17:08:00 - [663] Regarding Rockets, T2 Ammo and AF Afterburners: Please read this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1317960&page=1#5
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.17 19:14:00 - [664] Originally by: Zendoren Regarding Rockets, T2 Ammo and AF Afterburners: Please read this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1317960&page=1#5 I can confirm it was NOT linked/quoted in this thread 3 times already. Not at all.
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.18 10:45:00 - [665] rocketing back to page1 _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Rip Minner Gallente Balthizar Drako Inc.	Posted - 2010.05.18 15:49:00 - [666] Originally by: yani dumyat rocketing back to page1 Thats funny I like it free bumb becouse your funny and rockies need to work as anti-frig weapons they were meant to be. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here.
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.05.18 16:42:00 - [667] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Zendoren Regarding Rockets, T2 Ammo and AF Afterburners: Please read this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1317960&page=1#5 I can confirm it was NOT linked/quoted in this thread 3 times already. Not at all. They all just want to make sure that we know that CCP's timeframe on fixing rockets is sometime between 6 months and 1,000 years. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Captain Muscles Caldari Clan Farthammer	Posted - 2010.05.18 21:27:00 - [668] I'd hate for this to reach the second page. All hail Buffrawkets. ____________________ Captain Muscles sez:
Dreed Roberts	Posted - 2010.05.18 22:28:00 - [669] Heh I was thinking about this last night and I thought of something. Statement: Given historical EVE ship designs and CCP's track record it is fair to say that at least one frigate T3 subsystem/ship will give bonuses to rockets.This ship/subsystem could be Caldari or Amar. Question: Will we get a rocket fix before they release a new ship using the currently broken rockets? What are the chances of another still-birth from CCP? Taking bets. Give you 5:1 for rockets after T3 frigates, 2:1 for rockets fixed with T3 and 20:1 for rockets fixed before T3 frigates. Disclaimer: I am in game poor and have to limit the currency of these bets to 'internets', sorry.
Mohenna Caldari Knights of the Dark	Posted - 2010.05.19 08:09:00 - [670] It seems they're doing a 'rework'. Rather than the fine tuning this problem needs. So basically, buff or nerf, it will be out of any reasonable magnitude, to then stay broken for years, either becoming foty or remaining worthless.

Gecko O'Bac Achmed-Terrorist IUS PRIMAE N0CTIS	Posted - 2010.05.19 12:40:00 - [671] TL;DR: Wishful thinking on a mechanic rework for missiles as a whole. If they do a rework I could "hope" for a rework of the missile mechanics on the whole. I'm not talking about the damage formula, that is fine (although it could use fine tuning on some specific values). But there are issues with missiles that make them a little sub par compared to guns... Namely the high travel times on long ranges (which could be reduced though not eliminated, I don't want another turret with different graphics), the launch vector and the range problem. I have though about this for a while and I've come to the conclusion that to realistically solve those problems you would have to change from the partially physics based missile model we have now (they are temp objects that fly with dynamics akin to the ships) they would have to change to a simulation model (kind like the turrets). This is difficult for a lot of reasons and necessarily time consuming, but the biggest problem, imho, with this is that right now the graphics for the missiles are an integral component of the damage mechanics as well. In particular, when you group missile launchers you get only one temp object instead of multiple ones. This single object has the combined damage of all the missiles launched with compound hp as well, but this means that it has a drawback: defenders suddenly got much more efficient against this "mega missile" because a single defender will actually kill more than 1 missile (as would have been the case with separate missiles). The same goes for area effects like bombs and smartbombs. As you can see the object is strictly tied to the damage mechanic (while this doesn't happen with turrets), and this is also one of the reasons that prevent CCP from giving missiles a higher speed (In testing giving increased speed to missiles broke the physics engine, with missiles phasing through objects and chtulian horrors appearing in CCP's offices). I have considered this thing but can't really think of a simple workaround so a complete rework of the whole mechanics is wishful thinking at best, though it would make missiles more dirctly and easily comparable to turrets (and it'd also lighten the load on both server and client since you wouldn't have to compute the objects themselves but only some formula) and it would also allow a nicer graphic as well (you know, with missiles that actually fire from a launcher and are not... Pooped out of some hole)
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.19 12:55:00 - [672] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac But there are issues with missiles that make them a little sub par compared to guns... Namely the high travel times on long ranges (which could be reduced though not eliminated, I don't want another turret with different graphics), the launch vector and the range problem. TBH missile travel time is not a huge issue even with cerb at 200km. After a while you just get used to this and just learn how to pick proper targets. Launch vector is an issue with short range missiles: rockets, HAMs and torps. IMO ccp could just remove the whole "missile needs to speed up" thingy. IMO its outdated and not needed anymore + surely has to put some strain on server to calc it for every missile/volley. Just make missiles start with full speed and be done with it. Quote: I have though about this for a while and I've come to the conclusion that to realistically solve those problems you would have to change from the partially physics based missile model we have now (they are temp objects that fly with dynamics akin to the ships) they would have to change to a simulation model (kind like the turrets). Not sure if it was in this thread or other one but yeh that was one of the conclusions. Do hit/miss (if target is in range) check at launch and leave rest on cliend side (pretty gfx where missile goes towards target) - but we know that target is hit already. I know it would partially remove the ability to outrun missiles but on other hand it would fix the issues with short range missiles never hitting their target. Quote: defenders suddenly got much more efficient against this "mega missile" because a single defender will actually kill more than 1 missile (as would have been the case with separate missiles). Afaik defenders will always kill 0-1 missiles from salvo (they dont have enough damage to kill 2). Exception is NPC defenders which have nasty habit of killing even group of 6 torps (Thor torp spamming guristas station does this). But yeh i do agree. Changing missiles from object to simulation can unlock higher missile speeds and generally seems like a good idea.
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.19 19:54:00 - [673] Edited by: yani dumyat on 19/05/2010 19:58:20 Originally by: Dreed Roberts Taking bets. Give you 5:1 for rockets after T3 frigates, 2:1 for rockets fixed with T3 and 20:1 for rockets fixed before T3 frigates. Given that your post is number 666 I'll bet 100 severed heads on rockets being fixed with T3 (2:1) and have a wee punt of 15 sacrificial virgins on rockets being fixed before T3 frigates (20:1). _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Gecko O'Bac Achmed-Terrorist IUS PRIMAE N0CTIS	Posted - 2010.05.19 20:47:00 - [674] Edited by: Gecko O''Bac on 19/05/2010 20:47:52 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1321029 I fleshed out a little the idea above, though like the title says, it's mostly wishful thinking. There's the link to a google docs version of it for improved readability in the fourth post. Deva: yes travel time isn't that high but it still takes some time to travel to the target so you often end up with a blown target before the missiles hit. I used to have this problem even with just a drake if there are enough people around.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.19 23:06:00 - [675] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Deva: yes travel time isn't that high but it still takes some time to travel to the target so you often end up with a blown target before the missiles hit. I used to have this problem even with just a drake if there are enough people around. This is what i call using brain while flying missile ship (and especially cerb). WHY do you attack target that you KNOW will die before your missiles hit him? Attack secondary/tertiary or pick your own targets. I never had problems getting on mails (even including top dealer) in fleet fights with cerb - mostly because i was operating independent from main target calling (killing sabres, EWar, bombers - so stuff i can kill easily with 2 salvos and stuff that isnt primaried).
Zachary Sikorsky	Posted - 2010.05.20 10:18:00 - [676] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Quote: defenders suddenly got much more efficient against this "mega missile" because a single defender will actually kill more than 1 missile (as would have been the case with separate missiles). Afaik defenders will always kill 0-1 missiles from salvo (they dont have enough damage to kill 2). Exception is NPC defenders which have nasty habit of killing even group of 6 torps (Thor torp spamming guristas station does this). But yeh i do agree. Changing missiles from object to simulation can unlock higher missile speeds and generally seems like a good idea. Think about the NPC scenario. They have a shoot defender chance / missile launched at them. So if a single defender kills the whole blob it is fine as long as just ONE shoot defender test is made per blob.
Gecko O'Bac Achmed-Terrorist IUS PRIMAE N0CTIS	Posted - 2010.05.20 11:40:00 - [677] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Deva: yes travel time isn't that high but it still takes some time to travel to the target so you often end up with a blown target before the missiles hit. I used to have this problem even with just a drake if there are enough people around. This is what i call using brain while flying missile ship (and especially cerb). WHY do you attack target that you KNOW will die before your missiles hit him? Attack secondary/tertiary or pick your own targets. I never had problems getting on mails (even including top dealer) in fleet fights with cerb - mostly because i was operating independent from main target calling (killing sabres, EWar, bombers - so stuff i can kill easily with 2 salvos and stuff that isnt primaried). Works up to a point. Three problems with what you say: 1) With a fleet big enough, even secondaries tertiaries will be almost instapopped 2) If there isn't a big number of enemies, like in an heavy gate camp, you're going to do no damage. 3) If the enemy is using RR heavily (either armor or shield), firing on secondary targets is actually helping them most of the time Now, I don't ask for instant hits like turrets, I wouldn't want that. Just higher missile top speed... If you check the thread I linked above you will see the reasons why.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.20 12:00:00 - [678] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Works up to a point. Three problems with what you say: 1) With a fleet big enough, even secondaries tertiaries will be almost instapopped 2) If there isn't a big number of enemies, like in an heavy gate camp, you're going to do no damage. 3) If the enemy is using RR heavily (either armor or shield), firing on secondary targets is actually helping them most of the time 1. then chose your own targets based on your knowledge of battlefield. EWar, tacklers, bombers, dictors. Or just pick weakest of enemy bunch and fire on it. Even 1 cerb will force scorpion or pest off the field fairly quick. 2. that means you blobbed them and in really have no pity for this. In equal fights you will always hit something. 3. then you fire on primaries, obvious. Its up to missile user to think a little more than "primary, secondary". Like i said: i use missiles on my alt heavily (well... shes caldari an she can ONLY use missiles so its obvious i use them for pvp) and i never had problems with this. Well except for rockets which kinda suck (tho they are still better on caldari boats than amarr ones) and cruises which suck a lot. Second one is partially my fault, TZer (or w/ever his name is spelled - guy from Burn Eden) was right :X Quote: Now, I don't ask for instant hits like turrets, I wouldn't want that. Just higher missile top speed... If you check the thread I linked above you will see the reasons why. As i said i have no problem with this. Especially on close range missiles (like rockets) which funnily enough can be outrun...
Dreed Roberts	Posted - 2010.05.21 00:04:00 - [679] bumpin' bumpin' bumpin' we'll just keep on bumpin' 'til its fixed... rawhide!
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.21 01:26:00 - [680] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Stuff ... Seriously? Someone who actually knows how to use a Cerb? Ok now this thread has gone totally insane. Also confirming I also have no problems with missile flight time thanks to intelligent target choices. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.

Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.05.21 21:40:00 - [681] Pax Ammaria declares that for this thread to reach the second page is heresy! _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Cheshire Katt	Posted - 2010.05.22 06:52:00 - [682] This is a loooong thread. Have we had any CCP input on it? Too many pages to read. It would just be nice to know that CCP hears us.
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc	Posted - 2010.05.22 08:59:00 - [683] Originally by: Cheshire Katt This is a loooong thread. Have we had any CCP input on it? Too many pages to read. It would just be nice to know that CCP hears us. As said on page 7: have no fear, they're working on it. It might not come with Dominion though and it might get postponed if they choose to release another expansion after that. Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Rockets and there balance is being looked into at the moment have no fear ! :) Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Probably not in time for dominion but we are working on it.
Cordin Hamir	Posted - 2010.05.22 09:58:00 - [684] Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Probably not in time for dominion but we are working on it. In other words - it probably will not be in your life time but there is a chance for your children or grand children.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.22 23:52:00 - [685] Pax Caldari declares that for this thread to reach the second page is unprofitable! _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Tub Chil	Posted - 2010.05.23 09:15:00 - [686] Did anyone from CCp post here?
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.05.23 16:21:00 - [687] Originally by: Tub Chil Did anyone from CCp post here? Last time they did, dinosaurs walked on earth but, yes, they did post.
Dreed Roberts	Posted - 2010.05.24 05:40:00 - [688] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Originally by: Tub Chil Did anyone from CCp post here? Last time they did, dinosaurs walked on earth but, yes, they did post. Giggle
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.25 10:09:00 - [689] On page 2 this is Rockets are still needing fix Back to page 1 now _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Drenan State War Academy	Posted - 2010.05.25 14:25:00 - [690] CCP found time to 'fix' courier missions in Tyrannis...but not rockets, ye gods, what do we have to do...sacrifice the first-born?

Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.25 17:16:00 - [691] Originally by: Drenan CCP found time to 'fix' courier missions in Tyrannis...but not rockets, ye gods, what do we have to do...sacrifice the first-born? Already did that :X Didnt help it seems
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.05.25 18:05:00 - [692] Originally by: Drenan CCP found time to 'fix' courier missions in Tyrannis...but not rockets, ye gods, what do we have to do...sacrifice the first-born? Maybe if we send them some Exotic Dancers to hang out with we may be able to sneak in and make the changes ourselves. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.05.26 10:19:00 - [693] Please fix this NOW rockets are broken ! 11th hour tweak is all that is needed then can take it off the list and never have to deal with it again ! Please !
Number 17 Caldari COLD-Wing	Posted - 2010.05.26 21:22:00 - [694] logged in Tyrannis, Shiny new log in, new features (havent bothered to checked them, who cares) clicked info on a rocket 85 m/s explosion speed.... bummer.
Aviator Girl	Posted - 2010.05.26 23:56:00 - [695] Yes Rockets need to be fixed, as they are too weak at present.
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.27 20:13:00 - [696] CCP please, you could make a lot of people happy by doing 3 simple things: Increase base damage by 45% Increase Ev to 120 m/s Decrease DRF to 1.5 _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.28 01:22:00 - [697] Originally by: yani dumyat CCP please, you could make a lot of people happy by doing 3 simple things: Increase base damage by 45% Increase Ev to 120 m/s Decrease DRF to 1.5 _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.28 09:18:00 - [698] I think they are trying to save whats left of PI... before it even launched :D haha
Number 17 Caldari COLD-Wing	Posted - 2010.05.28 12:17:00 - [699] Originally by: yani dumyat CCP please, you could make a lot more people happy by doing 2 simple(r) things: Increase Ev to 120 m/s Increase load to 80 units
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.28 13:03:00 - [700] Originally by: Number 17 Originally by: yani dumyat CCP please, you could make a lot more people happy by doing 2 simple(r) things: Increase Ev to 120 m/s Increase load to 80 units Not really. With Ev 120 you need to reduce DRF to 1.5.

yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.28 14:21:00 - [701] Originally by: Number 17 Increase Ev to 120 m/s Increase load to 80 units Without the damage increase and DRF reduction rockets will still suck monkey balls, the maths was in this post. True about the clip size though so I'll revise it to: Originally by: yani dumyat CCP please, you could make a lot of people happy by doing 4 simple things: Increase base damage by 45% Increase Ev to 120 m/s Decrease DRF to 1.5 Increase clip size by at least 100% _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Captain Mastiff	Posted - 2010.05.29 10:54:00 - [702] OMG Rockets just got fixed!!!! Is the phrase we all dream of hearing.
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.05.29 19:26:00 - [703] Originally by: Captain Mastiff OMG Rockets just got fixed!!!! Is the phrase we all dream of hearing. Indeed, I got really excited until I read the second sentence in your post. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Captain Mastiff	Posted - 2010.05.30 16:50:00 - [704] Originally by: Krennel Darius Originally by: Captain Mastiff OMG Rockets just got fixed!!!! Is the phrase we all dream of hearing. Indeed, I got really excited until I read the second sentence in your post. What am I like eh? Playing tricks on innocent players. No seriously fix rockets!
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc	Posted - 2010.05.30 19:44:00 - [705] Originally by: yani dumyat CCP please, you could make a lot of people happy by doing 4 simple things: Increase base damage by 45% Increase Ev to 120 m/s Decrease DRF to 1.5 Increase clip size by at least 100% This would be very interesting to test at SiSi. .
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.05.30 20:31:00 - [706] Quote: This would be very interesting to test at SiSi. Shame it'll never get there. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Voridor Malevolence Amarr	Posted - 2010.05.31 17:40:00 - [707] ****ing fix rockets already
Captain Mastiff	Posted - 2010.05.31 19:08:00 - [708] Originally by: Voridor Malevolence ****ing fix rockets already +1
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.06.01 01:35:00 - [709] Originally by: Voridor Malevolence ****ing fix rockets already +2 _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.06.01 10:18:00 - [710] Current state of roflkets.

SupaKudoRio	Posted - 2010.06.02 00:46:00 - [711] Safe to say CCP is never going to fix rockets at this point. _ Oh, mighty pole-up-ass-ee! The link to a page which did not even leave the domain which you clicked entirely voluntarily and so deeply offended you has been removed! Cheeez
Luscar Seneca	Posted - 2010.06.02 04:32:00 - [712] I just felt like I should put a signature on this... referendum of rockets. CCP, help out the little guy and fix this problem, please.
Rip Minner Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries	Posted - 2010.06.02 06:53:00 - [713] Originally by: Gypsio III Current state of roflkets. OMG thats so freaking funny you just made my night thx u Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.06.02 07:48:00 - [714] Originally by: Rip Minner Originally by: Gypsio III Current state of roflkets. OMG thats so freaking funny you just made my night thx u It's quite old, I expect most people saw it a long time ago... A BIT LIKE THIS THREAD EH? EH? EH, CCP? DID YOU SEE WHAT I DID THERE?
UrMomLvsEmo	Posted - 2010.06.02 15:40:00 - [715] Oh look i got a shiny new hawk and it STILL SUCKS. Fix rockets please
Pichondra	Posted - 2010.06.02 16:33:00 - [716] fix them or remove them from game.
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.06.02 17:06:00 - [717] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Rip Minner Originally by: Gypsio III Current state of roflkets. OMG thats so freaking funny you just made my night thx u It's quite old, I expect most people saw it a long time ago... A BIT LIKE THIS THREAD EH? EH? EH, CCP? DID YOU SEE WHAT I DID THERE? I see what you did there. One more patch and one more time I am disappointed that said patch doesn't contain a rocket fix. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Voridor Malevolence Amarr	Posted - 2010.06.02 18:24:00 - [718] Originally by: Krennel Darius One more patch and one more time I am disappointed that said patch doesn't contain a rocket fix. I know the feeling
Carla Messer	Posted - 2010.06.03 18:58:00 - [719] This is the thread that never ends Yes it goes on and on my friends Some people started posting wanting rockets fixed And they'll keep right on posting Cause CCP is full of **s This is the thread that never ends Yes it goes on and on my friends Some people started posting cause rockets aren't worth ** And they'll keep right on posting Till someone fixes it This is the tread that never ends Yes it goes on and on my friends Some people started posting not knowing what to do And they'll keep right on posting Annoying me and you
Hexton Korr	Posted - 2010.06.03 20:58:00 - [720] So ccp add stuff that people dont care about to the game, but doesnt fix the stuff that the people allready playing and paying for the game want? How sad. Fix rockets!

Sergei Le'Poof	Posted - 2010.06.04 07:13:00 - [721] I rockets get fixed I will stop wearing pink! I promise
Sergei Le'Poof	Posted - 2010.06.05 10:19:00 - [722] Heellooo? I am still weraing pink!
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc	Posted - 2010.06.05 10:21:00 - [723] Edited by: van Uber on 05/06/2010 10:22:09 Originally by: CCP Soundwave Originally by: fuxinos And what about rockets? There will be rockets. By now I understand that he did not mean rockets as in the weapon that needs to be rebalanced .
Larinioides cornutus	Posted - 2010.06.05 11:26:00 - [724] Edited by: Larinioides cornutus on 05/06/2010 11:35:36 This topic was only started in 2009. It takes 5 years (4y under + 1y post) to obtain a master degree in rocket science at the University of Limerick, Ireland. Dont worry, they have noticed and definitely are going to fix it. As soon as the guy graduate.
Zariya Zravhnor Precision Collision	Posted - 2010.06.05 12:10:00 - [725] Can definitely use some work.
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.06.06 06:30:00 - [726] Today while looking at all of the fits on all of the rocket boats I have, I noticed that my Kestrel with 4x Rocket Launcher 2's does 147dps, while my Vengeance with the same things does 106dps. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that broken rockets isn't the only thing wrong with the Vengeance. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.06.06 11:25:00 - [727] Originally by: Krennel Darius Today while looking at all of the fits on all of the rocket boats I have, I noticed that my Kestrel with 4x Rocket Launcher 2's does 147dps EFT, Rage rockets, heh. 147 DPS to the edge of scramble range sounds okay. The problem is that an ABing Rifter can expect to receive as little as 14% of that. With CN rockets, the EFT DPS of 129 is mitigated to 30% by the ABing Rifter, and even when webbed it still takes less than 60% of that 129 DPS. Meanwhile, the Rifter moves into optimal where it has no trouble applying its similar EFT DPS...
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2010.06.07 10:26:00 - [728] Originally by: Larinioides cornutus Edited by: Larinioides cornutus on 05/06/2010 11:35:36 This topic was only started in 2009. It takes 5 years (4y under + 1y post) to obtain a master degree in rocket science at the University of Limerick, Ireland. Dont worry, they have noticed and definitely are going to fix it. As soon as the guy graduate. Vote for best sniper ever
Captain Mastiff	Posted - 2010.06.07 15:31:00 - [729] Supporting this thread +1
Aralieus Amarr The Inf1dels En Garde	Posted - 2010.06.07 17:23:00 - [730] fixed yet yo? Fortune favors the bold!!!

Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.06.08 22:56:00 - [731] Originally by: Aralieus fixed yet yo? I'll give you two guesses. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
So Cash	Posted - 2010.06.09 00:44:00 - [732] Edited by: So Cash on 09/06/2010 00:43:59 Originally by: Krennel Darius Originally by: Aralieus fixed yet yo? I'll give you two guesses. 1) Definitely fixed, CCP listens to its customers especially through CSM! 2) Nope
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.06.09 07:58:00 - [733] CCP 2009 Entrance Exam. One question, multiple choice. The most popular and powerful T1 combat frigate is the Rifter. It is fast, has a good slot layout, is relatively easy to fit and has some degree of damage type selection. The least popular combat frigates use rockets. They are slow, hard to fit, require multiple webs which they don't have the slot layout to fit and the rockets' damage is feeble. One of these ships is much more powerful than the others. How do you resolve this imbalance? a) The rocket ships are underpowered. Fix these ships. b) Rockets are underpowered. Fix Rockets. c) The Rifter is is underpowered. Boost the Rifter by increasing higher-tier AC falloff, giving projectile ammo purer damage types and by increasing the damage of Fusion. Hint - if you answer "C" you are a moron, and will therefore pass this exam. Welcome to CCP!
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.06.09 11:43:00 - [734] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 09/06/2010 11:45:32 Question 2 (Judging by explosion velocity figures we can't count either) It is a day to a major patch. You have the choice of a small database tweak. Which do you pick: a) 2 numbers which buffs or fixes around 20 ships, of tech 1 and 2 levels b) 1 number which buffs a faction battleship a miniscule percentage of the EVE population owns If you answered b... welcome aboard! On an unrelated note, I've just realised how hilarious it is that CCP have actually added to the list of broken ships a few pages back by reworking the Hookbill. Now peoples opinions vary in the case of the other 3 navy frigates but only in that one case could it be reasonably argued that CCP made it worse. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Larinioides cornutus	Posted - 2010.06.11 04:40:00 - [735] To first page, GO!!
Ekrid Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.06.12 07:57:00 - [736] rocketts need th epower to be what they were meant to be: A weapon system for taking out bigger ships, i.e. more damage, but keep the explosion velocity the same. seriously guys, just read rocket flavor text, the whole idea was never "an anti-frig" weapon, thats why we got destroyers. Rockets were supposed to be the way frigs could DPS in fleets against larger ships. alts are for people with a USD/life ratio higher than adolfs K/D in WWII. - Ekrid " i'll log my alt in and check if the station has hostiles near". such a fierce carebear pirate you are
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.06.12 08:47:00 - [737] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/06/2010 08:47:34 Because flavor texts are most important part of balancing the game. Plus we have a frig weapon system for taking out bigger ships - its called stealth bomber + torps.
Ekrid Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.06.12 09:50:00 - [738] Edited by: Ekrid on 12/06/2010 09:57:10 like it or not; 1. The flavor text indicates the path the devs wanted to take with rockets. 2. You're talking about tech 2 garbage, what about tech 1 for poorer people, and an even cheaper ability? Do rockets come anywhere close to infringing on the damage territory of torps? No. then stfu. 3. you're an idiot. 4. without some systems for T1 frigates to assist in DPS during gangs or fleets, they are only for tackling. Whenever someone asks "Can I fight in a frigate", people say "sure, a frigate is viable in PVP just as much as anything else.". You know what happens when they join a gang? 100% of the time they're asked to tackle. Anyone with 3 million SP saying they want to DPS with their frig will be laughed at, told to fit tackle, or be booted, in any combination of the aforementioned methods they are dealt with. you're just some billion-isk ship e-peen waving tard who thinks people shouldn't be able to access something dangerous without paying assloads. Anyone who says fighting bigger ships belongs to SBs is an idiot, because being a capsuleer, a player can control a 100 man ship or a 5000 man ship (BS sizes), and its all the same, so that inherently makes frigs weaker since tehy have less fitting, slots, and damage output already. If anything, frigs need modules that help decrease incoming damage from oversized guns, dps output on oversized targets, but do 10% as much good against other frigates, to make anti-frigatting more powerful, since frigates can fit objects which make them stronger vs large but weaker vs small. Thats how you'd game balance, in fact they do this with T2 ammo, the kind that lowers your tracking but gives you big gains for damage, you think that was to hit ships the same size? pff. alts are for people with a USD/life ratio higher than adolfs K/D in WWII. - Ekrid " i'll log my alt in and check if the station has hostiles near". such a fierce carebear pirate you are
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.06.12 10:57:00 - [739] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/06/2010 11:04:21 Originally by: Ekrid some dribbling moron stuff You are pretty special boy, arent you? 1. flavor text indicates nothing. 2. stop doing drugs. It hurts your brain. Plus as you dont know we are talking about t2 ships in most cases (interceptors, AFs, interdictors) as from t1 ships ONLY kestrel uses rocket launchers often enough to be bothered with any changes. 3. point 1 and 2. Shows whos the idiot in this thread. 4. kestrel is already hardest hitting frigate in game (think only incursus can get more dps). So what you on about again? Ah yea... drugs. So you are butthurt 3mil sp tool, who has no clue about game or game balance, who doesnt even know what is his ship role in the fight? Learn to play then enter balance topics. Thanks. To sum up: you are a nobody here, you enter the thread throwing insults left and right without ANY proposals/counter proposals/valid arguments and you dont want to be ridiculed on the spot? Try again but with another character, this is already burnt and prolly will be remembered as a clueless trol. Bye, i hope the door hits you on the way out. EDIT: AHHHHH now i remember. You are the guy who whined that got owned by harbinger while flying frig and whining how DPS did not decrease in tight orbit (even tho you got hit once per 50 shots). proof of being ** at EVE WARNING TO OTHERS - HE IS JUST A CLUELESS TROLL !!!**
Ekrid Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.06.12 11:06:00 - [740] so you fail to understand the game balance, game mechanics, and intended game flow, and since you fail to know that I have actually 10 mil, and since you fail at reading comprehension as to the aforementioned harbringer, which actually hit once in every 3 times, with a group, I don't think I have to bother taking anything of out your idiotic mouth seriously. alts are for people with a USD/life ratio higher than adolfs K/D in WWII. - Ekrid " i'll log my alt in and check if the station has hostiles near". such a fierce carebear pirate you are

Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.06.12 11:09:00 - [741] Awesome, 10 mil. Still at least 30 to go before you should post here. Bye
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.06.12 11:49:00 - [742] Originally by: Ekrid so you fail to understand the game balance, game mechanics, and intended game flow, and since you fail to know that I have actually 10 mil, and since you fail at reading comprehension as to the aforementioned harbringer, which actually hit once in every 3 times, with a group, I don't think I have to bother taking anything of out your idiotic mouth seriously. Yep that's right, ignore every valid point Deva made because they contradict and completely own your stupid idea. According to flavour text: - The Raven, Drake, Ferox, CNR and Worm are EWAR ships - The Omen and Caracal should be a tanked out brick - The Celestis is an amazing close range ship that can do any job at all - The Bellicose is a "combat juggernaut" and a very good long range ship - The Prophecy is meant for... umm... artillery support? What? I could go on but I think I made my point - flavour text is bull. This is shown better than any of these examples in rocket launchers - "not really intended as a primary weapon" Yet there is an extensive line of ships built to use them specifically as a primary weapon. Strikes me as a bit of a contradiction no? And now I'll reiterate what I said to the last one that thinks torp-rockets are a good idea: 1. As Deva pointed out and you skillfully ignored, we have frigate sized ships built to fire at bigger ones. We don't need more. 2. This would effectively create a new type of ship, one which several races would actually lack 3. It would change the role of several existing ships to something completely off the wall and impossible to balance (anti-battleship interceptors, anyone?) 3. Most importantly: 400dps Kestrels Of Doom(tm). Take 3 of those out and you're doing 1.2k dps, and in a group that size you have enough tackle to be doing that damage to frigates. So basically anything smaller than a battlecruiser is going to melt instantly, to a trio of t1 frigs. It would require a number of ships to be rebalanced completely, when a smaller buff to damage + a corresponding increase in explosion velocity would make them workable vs frigates and balanced vs anything bigger. Now please offer up some well thought out counterpoints or GTFO. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Doctor Mabuse	Posted - 2010.06.12 12:31:00 - [743] Originally by: Ekrid A weapon system for taking out bigger ships, i.e. more damage, but keep the explosion velocity the same. seriously guys, just read rocket flavor text Hmmm Originally by: Evelopedia Rockets - Hundreds of tiny bites will wear away even the toughest opponent. Originally by: Evelopedia Foxfire Rocket - A small rocket with a plasma warhead. Originally by: Evelopedia Rocket Launcher I - A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really intended as a primary weapon but rather as a cheap supplementary weapon system. ...tiny... ...small... ...supplementary... Not actually sure where ~~this idiot~~ Ekrid gets the idea that rockets should be for taking on larger targets, even if item descriptions were an accurate reflection of their use. ------------------------------------ Who's trip-trapping on my bridge?
Khalia Nestune Honorless Internet Jerks	Posted - 2010.06.12 23:46:00 - [744] +1 rockets need a buff. Please fix.
Zakru Anul	Posted - 2010.06.13 19:36:00 - [745] OK so who wants too take a bet. 50mil that we can walk in stations and get hammered at a bar before Rockets get fix.. anyone anyone?
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2010.06.14 07:29:00 - [746] Originally by: Zakru Anul OK so who wants too take a bet. 50mil that we can walk in stations and get hammered at a bar before Rockets get fix.. anyone anyone? I'll take you up on that so long as the "...get hammered at a bar..." is part of the deal. Protip: Eve is a T for Teen game. Gimme my 50mill. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout Been there. Done that. Need antibiotics.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.06.14 14:51:00 - [747] Quote: Protip: Eve is a T for Teen game. Gimme my 50mill. Exotic dancers have been confirmed, and even WoW has usable alcohol, so don't go cashing in the bet too early... _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.06.14 15:03:00 - [748] Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: Zakru Anul OK so who wants too take a bet. 50mil that we can walk in stations and get hammered at a bar before Rockets get fix.. anyone anyone? I'll take you up on that so long as the "...get hammered at a bar..." is part of the deal. Protip: Eve is a T for Teen game. Gimme my 50mill. I don't wanna meet the teens you know.
Tex Bloodhunter	Posted - 2010.06.15 17:04:00 - [749] I opened a petition regarding rocket explosion velocity. This is the answer I got: Hello, As has been stated before, the rocket rebalance is planned for some point in the future, but will not be put in without intention and effort going into the changes. If you would like to make specific suggestions regarding rockets, you are welcoem to do so in the features and ideas forum. Best Regards, BH Newmind IMO rocket rebalance definitely is one of the high priority task. Certainly higher in priority than planet sim city. But then again, I am just one of the very few people who like to explore the combat part of this game.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2010.06.15 19:32:00 - [750] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: Zakru Anul OK so who wants too take a bet. 50mil that we can walk in stations and get hammered at a bar before Rockets get fix.. anyone anyone? I'll take you up on that so long as the "...get hammered at a bar..." is part of the deal. Protip: Eve is a T for Teen game. Gimme my 50mill. I don't wanna meet the teens you know. I don't think you took that the way it was intended. Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Quote: Protip: Eve is a T for Teen game. Gimme my 50mill. Exotic dancers have been confirmed, and even WoW has usable alcohol, so don't go cashing in the bet too early... It has usable items which make your screen blurry. It doesn't have bars dedicated to getting smashed _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout Been there. Done that. Need antibiotics.

Julius Romanus Amarr	Posted - 2010.06.15 20:35:00 - [751] Originally by: Tex Bloodhunter I opened a petition regarding rocket explosion velocity. This is the answer I got: Hello, As has been stated before, the rocket rebalance is planned for some point in the future, but will not be put in without intention and effort going into the changes. If you would like to make specific suggestions regarding rockets, you are welcoem to do so in the features and ideas forum. Best Regards, BH Newmind IMO rocket rebalance definitely is one of the high priority task. Certainly higher in priority than planet sim city. But then again, I am just one of the very few people who like to explore the combat part of this game. I have a specific suggestion regarding rockets. Quit nancing about with flowers, moisture evaporators, elves, and whatever nonsense waste of our time PI, and fix the explosion velocity so they are useful again. ------------------ For Medicinal Use Only.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.06.15 21:49:00 - [752] Before CCP fixes rockets ill be long gone to just announced WH40k MMO which will have working rockets in form of bolters. yay.
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.06.15 22:58:00 - [753] Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Rockets and there balance is being looked into at the moment have no fear ! :) Care to comment on this one 7 months later Mr. WeirdFish? _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Larinioides cornutus	Posted - 2010.06.16 09:26:00 - [754] Edited by: Larinioides cornutus on 16/06/2010 09:27:14 I doubt that he ever will, considering the amount of heat being built up.
Julius Romanus Amarr	Posted - 2010.06.16 20:58:00 - [755] Originally by: Larinioides cornutus Edited by: Larinioides cornutus on 16/06/2010 09:27:14 I doubt that he ever will, considering the amount of heat being built up. I doubt most people actually care what they have to say about it at this point. I dont. Fix it, no excuses. The heat will just keep building till they do so. Why do i care so much? Amarr t2 frigate pilot, mostly Khanid. They made the ships specifically use rockets. Then broke the weapon system. Until it's fixed, I dont care for their reasons or their excuses. ------------------ For Medicinal Use Only.
Captain Muscles Caldari Clan Farthammer	Posted - 2010.06.16 21:15:00 - [756] When Incarna gets here, rocket-ships will finally have a purpose: to flush out docked war targets. Because you'll be more dangerous inside the station than out. You'll see me in some random station, yelling in local: *"Get back in here you pansies, so I can give you a * twister!"* ____________________ Captain Muscles sez:
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.06.17 10:57:00 - [757] Quote: Why do i care so much? What bugs me in particular about it is it's such a **ing simple fix, yet they've put rubbish like the Vindicator ahead of it time and time again. They even reworked the Caldari Navy Hookbill into a pure-rocket using ship: KNOWING FULL WELL DOING SO WOULD BREAK IT. They were happy to change a ship over to a broken weapon system, knowing full well they every intention of leaving it that way once they'd screwed it. _________________________________ Originally by:** Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Shade Millith Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.06.17 12:41:00 - [758] Just a little bump, because I'm getting sick of CCP's crap about this. ------------------------
Julius Romanus Amarr	Posted - 2010.06.18 06:13:00 - [759] Step 1: Fix rockets Step 2: Fix right click on SISI. ------------------ Fix Rockets.
ElCholo Minmatar Wrecking Shots	Posted - 2010.06.18 08:53:00 - [760] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Before CCP fixes rockets ill be long gone to just announced WH40k MMO which will have working rockets in form of bolters. yay. If WH40K is good, I can honestly say all 4 accounts in Eve will die for it. I <3 40K.

Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.06.18 17:14:00 - [761] Another expansion has come and gone, 6 dev posts in this very thread. And still rockets don't work. Seriously, get off your backsides and address this age-old issue guys.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:29:00 - [762] I would LOVE to see the statistics of AT8. For example: how many rocket launchers were fitted on ships in comparison to other weapon systems (including no weapons at all).
Voridor Malevolence Amarr	Posted - 2010.06.21 18:46:00 - [763] what the **** is so hard about this
Captain Muscles Caldari Clan Farthammer	Posted - 2010.06.21 19:46:00 - [764] Originally by: Helicity Boson Another expansion has come and gone, 6 dev posts in this very thread. And still rockets don't work. Seriously, get off your backsides and address this age-old issue guys. There once was a dame named Helicity, Who took issue with explosion velocity, "Hey! Get off your ass, and fix rockets fast, That I may return to planning my atrocity." ____________________ Captain Muscles sez:
Julius Romanus Amarr	Posted - 2010.06.22 05:16:00 - [765] This should never not be the first topic on the forum. ------------------ Fix Rockets.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.06.22 12:47:00 - [766] Quote: There once was a dame named Helicity, Who took issue with explosion velocity, "Hey! Get off your ass, and fix rockets fast, That I may return to planning my atrocity." There once was a Captain named Muscles Who wrote poems and got into tustles He wrote in a thread Pwned CCP devs And got rockets fixed without hassle _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.06.22 15:28:00 - [767] There was a thread about a rocket, So pathetic that everyone would knock it, The solution was obvious, But CCP was oblivious, And the frustrated players said "fock it".
Captain Muscles Caldari Clan Farthammer	Posted - 2010.06.22 17:21:00 - [768] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Quote: There once was a dame named Helicity, Who took issue with explosion velocity, "Hey! Get off your ass, and fix rockets fast, That I may return to planning my atrocity." There once was a Captain named Muscles Who wrote poems and got into tustles He wrote in a thread Pwned CCP devs And got rockets fixed without hassle This change has been lost on the docket, Like coins through a hole in the pocket. To bring change to this error, One must instill terror, We'll all pledge our souls to BUFFRAWKETS!!! ____________________ Captain Muscles sez:
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.06.22 17:44:00 - [769] There once were some pilots of Hookbills Who were dissapointed with level 5 rocket skills They yelled for the devs Who responded with "mehs" And ignored balance in favour of Dramiels _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Captain Muscles Caldari Clan Farthammer	Posted - 2010.06.22 18:05:00 - [770] Wow Duchess, you sure responded quickly. You must be watching this thread like a HAWK. ____________________ Captain Muscles sez:

Julius Romanus Amarr	Posted - 2010.06.22 18:59:00 - [771] Originally by: Captain Muscles Wow Duchess, you sure responded quickly. You must be watching this thread like a HAWK. Easy to do when the hawk sits useless in a station i'm sure. ------------------ Fix Rockets.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.06.22 19:07:00 - [772] Well I'm an avid bird watcher, and there just aren't that many Kestrels or Crows around right now. If something has happened to them I will be sure to enact vengeance on those responsible. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.06.23 08:36:00 - [773] There once was a poor little Crow, Whose rockets really did blow, "What should I do?" "My weapons are such poo!" "To the Dramiel shop I must go!"
Larinioides cornutus	Posted - 2010.06.24 16:21:00 - [774] Judging by how they rotate races as reward for Alliance Tournaments now, we can expect a caldari assault ship being one of the prizes next year or the year after. I'm taking bets on it coming with bonuses to rocket.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.06.24 17:50:00 - [775] Originally by: Larinioides cornutus Judging by how they rotate races as reward for Alliance Tournaments now, we can expect a caldari assault ship being one of the prizes next year or the year after. I'm taking bets on it coming with bonuses to rocket. Probably. As recent events have shown they're not above pre-nerfing ships by making them rocket users. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
pmchem Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.06.25 04:39:00 - [776] Originally by: Julius Romanus Originally by: Captain Muscles Wow Duchess, you sure responded quickly. You must be watching this thread like a HAWK. Easy to do when the hawk sits useless in a station i'm sure. well played
Patri Andari Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer	Posted - 2010.06.25 22:52:00 - [777] I can not be forced to believe that no one at CCP is following this thread! There must be a giant plan in the works to fix rockets. They just want to keep it secrete until they have ironed out all the kinks. Right? RIGHT?! Patri I'll Roshambo you for that Titan
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.06.26 00:21:00 - [778] Originally by: Patri Andari I can not be forced to believe that no one at CCP is following this thread! There must be a giant plan in the works to fix rockets. They just want to keep it secrete until they have ironed out all the kinks. Right? RIGHT?! Sounds a little over optimistic to me... But nah, rockets will be fixed eventually, but you have to understand, CCP has other priorities including: - Buffing faction stuff nobody will fly - Tweaking numbers on afformentioned faction stuff nobody flies, because apparently that's easier than tweaking them on rockets. - Designing and implementing more shiny overpriced hanger ornaments that are basically useless for anything but glorified mission runners - Flying Dramiels - Changing formerly semi-workable ships into rocket users (coughHookbillcough) _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.06.26 21:20:00 - [779] Wow, this thread took ages to reach page 2. At least it's fast enough to outrun a rocket explosion. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Julius Romanus Amarr	Posted - 2010.06.26 23:37:00 - [780] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Wow, this thread took ages to reach page 2. At least it's fast enough to outrun a rocket explosion. I was out of town for a little while. At highway speeds rockets do not damage my car. ------------------ Fix Rockets.

Zendoren Aktaeon Industries	Posted - 2010.06.27 05:48:00 - [781] This needs to be fixed before the thread reaches 100 pages. Make it happen, or i will go to Iceland and tie these to your cars and bikes!!!
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.06.27 22:16:00 - [782] Tried bumping this thread with my Hawk but it outran them _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Captain Mastiff	Posted - 2010.06.28 01:51:00 - [783] I support this thread... again
Ulviirala Vauryndar Gallente Vauryndar Dalharil	Posted - 2010.06.28 02:59:00 - [784] Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Probably not in time for dominion but we are working on it. Because changing two numbers by fairly obvious amounts takes months of meditation and spiritual cleansing. Not at all but getting someone to sit down and change them means stopping them working on what they are doing. Its not a case of the task requiring 5 hail Mary's its just that we are all extremely busy. 12/11/2009. Never forget.
Captain Muscles Caldari Clan Farthammer	Posted - 2010.06.28 18:52:00 - [785] Edited by: Captain Muscles on 28/06/2010 18:56:53 So I decided to kill some time by running a few level 1/2 missions to improve my faction standings. Since the faction ships were buffed in Dominion, I thought it was finally time for me to give the Worm a try. I spent one minute on EFT, which was followed by ten minutes of bitter weeping. EDIT: If I were paying attention beforehand, I would have ended this post by saying that "I instead bought a Harpy, so I could SNIPE PAGE 27 BOOYAH!!!" Unfortunately, I didn't. I will now trade in my Harpy for a Hawk and run my missions in shame. ____________________ Captain Muscles sez:
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc	Posted - 2010.07.01 07:49:00 - [786] I got a bit depressed when devs recently revealed that they did not know about stuck modules in large fleet engagements. Kind of makes me wonder what else they don't know is broken. Rockets? .
Isil Rahsen Gallente Ferrum Superum	Posted - 2010.07.01 09:22:00 - [787] Lolol, I saw that same info and about died from laughing. I don't know where to be shocked or give up all hope. Roflkets will probably never be fixed.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.01 11:00:00 - [788] I still maintain my theory that a CCP dev was ganked by a Hawk as a newbie. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.01 11:09:00 - [789] Originally by: Isil Rahsen Lolol, I saw that same info and about died from laughing. I don't know where to be shocked or give up all hope. Roflkets will probably never be fixed. Linky plz? As for rockets. In the time it takes CCP to change 2 numbers there was new stadium built in my city. From scratch. Including demolishing previous stuff in the area and buying off the parcel(s). Never thought being game developer is such a hard work.
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.07.01 18:01:00 - [790] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Isil Rahsen Lolol, I saw that same info and about died from laughing. I don't know where to be shocked or give up all hope. Roflkets will probably never be fixed. Linky plz? As for rockets. In the time it takes CCP to change 2 numbers there was new stadium built in my city. From scratch. Including demolishing previous stuff in the area and buying off the parcel(s). Never thought being game developer is such a hard work. Changing 2 numbers is serious business, far more serious than designing and building a stadium. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris

GankuVerymuch	Posted - 2010.07.01 20:08:00 - [791] CCP is too busy with their head up the consoles butt for Dust. The evolution of their money making machine has taken them away from their player base(dedicated PC users) They have devoted so many resources to making Dust and eve work together they have put EVE issues on the back burner 'till this Dust PI thing works the way they want it. (Have they introduced anything not pertaining to Dust interaction since they announced it?) All about moneys boys and girls. U still pay to play EVE. While they are about to get flooded with new money from all the little console brats who are going to Kill the EVE playing experience once they have an effect on OUR game. On that note don't expect to see rockets fixed 'till after the Dust settles.
Julius Romanus Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.02 03:46:00 - [792] What dont you people understand. You have a list of broken frigates because you are too lazy to make a simple fix for something you broke a year ago. It's not complicated, and you admitted it months ago. You dont have time to fix it because you refuse to make time, and it's pathetic. ------------------ Fix Rockets.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.02 10:30:00 - [793] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 02/07/2010 10:32:21 Re-posting for emphasis. 3 launchers+: (Primary weapon) Hawk Vengeance Malediction Crow Kestrel Breacher (lol, yeah, I know...) Inquisitor Flycatcher Heretic Worm (easily the most lolworthy pirate frigate right now) Caldari Navy Hookbill (Changed to pure rockets from split weapon AFTER CCP ACKNOWLEDGED THEY WERE BROKEN) Split weapons (half and half rockets/guns) Merlin Tristan Eris Extra launcher high slot (meh) Rifter Republic fleet Firetail Harpy Cormorant Thrasher Claw Stiletto Raptor Enyo Jaguar Wolf VINDICATOR DRAMIEL BECAUSE OF TANKY SHUTTLE FALCON _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Julius Romanus Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.02 15:42:00 - [794] Or malediction/vengeance. OH WAIT. ------------------ Fix Rockets.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.02 21:38:00 - [795] Originally by: Julius Romanus Or malediction/vengeance. OH WAIT. TouchT sir. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
S'qarpium D'igil	Posted - 2010.07.03 15:39:00 - [796] bump
pvt awesome	Posted - 2010.07.05 04:24:00 - [797] Plz fix rockets ccp.
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc	Posted - 2010.07.05 07:57:00 - [798] Originally by: Julius Romanus You have a list of broken frigates because you are too lazy to make a simple fix for something you broke a year ago. Actually, it's closer to two years now. .
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.05 12:06:00 - [799] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 05/07/2010 12:11:05 The "meh" part of that list it really doesn't matter too much on, but notice the frigates in the half and half section are the ones that are generally regarded as significantly worse than the other tier 3s, and the ones in the top of the list are either broken or fit guns instead. Every time this thread reaches a new page, I'm re-posting that list. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Libin Herobi	Posted - 2010.07.06 07:58:00 - [800] Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Probably not in time for dominion but we are working on it. Because changing two numbers by fairly obvious amounts takes months of meditation and spiritual cleansing. Not at all but getting someone to sit down and change them means stopping them working on what they are doing. Its not a case of the task requiring 5 hail Mary's its just that we are all extremely busy. Still haven't found the 5 minutes to sit down and change 2 numbers? How about you try to have one less coffee (not per day, just once) and get that fixed? Are you seriously trying to say you haven't found a free slot for this fix in 6 months?!

Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.06 12:35:00 - [801] Originally by: Libin Herobi Are you seriously trying to say you haven't found a free slot for this fix in 6 months?! More like 17 months (this thread life). Tho the issue was known even earlier, pretty much just after nano nerf.
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc	Posted - 2010.07.07 08:53:00 - [802] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Libin Herobi Are you seriously trying to say you haven't found a free slot for this fix in 6 months?! More like 17 months (this thread life). Tho the issue was known even earlier, pretty much just after nano nerf. It was mentioned in the Missile damage on Singularity: Feedback thread in late October 2008. So I'd say it's closer to 21 months. It never got any real Dev response in that thread though.
Elgaris Dukor Caldari Femti Runa Eru ParadoXon Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.07 10:23:00 - [803] Hello. I highly doubt that any dev is still reading this thread. The behavior that CCP shows here is outrageous towards their customers. First stating that they will look into the problem and than ignoring it for months or even years. They seam to have time to answer plenty of other stuff on the forums so lack of time cant be the issue. They could at least give us an update if they still plan to do something with rockets or if they decided to leave them as they are. I think we do have to accept that adding new content that nobody wanted is far more important than fixing already existing stuff. Elgaris.
Libin Herobi	Posted - 2010.07.07 12:31:00 - [804] Edited by: Libin Herobi on 07/07/2010 12:30:45 Originally by: Elgaris Dukor Hello. I highly doubt that any dev is still reading this thread. The behavior that CCP shows here is outrageous towards their customers. First stating that they will look into the problem and than ignoring it for months or even years. They seam to have time to answer plenty of other stuff on the forums so lack of time cant be the issue. They could at least give us an update if they still plan to do something with rockets or if they decided to leave them as they are. I think we do have to accept that adding new content that nobody wanted is far more important than fixing already existing stuff. Elgaris. You really want another "yes we will fix that some day"? And 6 months is the time since that statement I quoted. The issue is much older, I know .
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.07 14:01:00 - [805] CCP is staying tightly shut to provide us with a "surprise reveal" when the time comes. One can hope...
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.07.07 19:14:00 - [806] So I go away for a month and first thing I do on getting home is check this thread in case CCP....um I should have known better shouldn't I? Originally by: Elgaris Dukor I highly doubt that any dev is still reading this thread. No but they read this forum, this thread is sitting there on page 1 and they ignore it in the same way a student ignores the washing up. Just like said washing up the rocket issue has gone mouldy and started talking to itself. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Larinioides cornutus	Posted - 2010.07.08 12:18:00 - [807] Apparently this shut-up-till-people-get-tired-and-stop-bumping tactic worked with the 6JN topic which has dropped down to page 2. ----- Cloak doesnt need fixing. It is like in real life, one is not a threat and should not be paid attention until he reveal his explosive belt. Americans should stop all funding on finding terrori
pmchem Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.08 19:52:00 - [808] You guys would be better off creating a youtube video of every comment in this thread along with some gameplay shots of rockets sucking, and getting that video upvoted to the top of reddit or something. It's pretty clear this thread has no influence on CCP action. In fact that video idea is kind of cool, someone give it a shot~
Captain Muscles Caldari Clan Farthammer	Posted - 2010.07.08 22:35:00 - [809] Originally by: pmchem You guys would be better off creating a youtube video of every comment in this thread along with some gameplay shots of rockets sucking, and getting that video upvoted to the top of reddit or something. It's pretty clear this thread has no influence on CCP action. In fact that video idea is kind of cool, someone give it a shot~ I like this idea. We could hold the "Rocket Games" where pilots in various rocket ships fight against pilots in non-rocket ships of the same class. Or... Deadliest Warrior: Hawk vs. Rifter... ____________________ Captain Muscles sez:
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.08 22:40:00 - [810] Originally by: Captain Muscles Or... Deadliest Warrior: Hawk vs. Rifter... I lold

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.09 01:42:00 - [811] I'll just leave this here. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.07.09 08:19:00 - [812] Simply record a MSE Dramiel passive-shield-regen-tanking a Kestrel by orbiting on AB.
Ninetails o'Cat League of Super Evil	Posted - 2010.07.09 08:38:00 - [813] Originally by: Gypsio III Simply record a MSE Dramiel passive-shield-regen-tanking a Kestrel by orbiting on AB. But then CCP would just say something like: "Mission accomplished".
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.09 10:40:00 - [814] Originally by: Gypsio III Simply record a MSE Dramiel passive-shield-regen-tanking a Kestrel by orbiting on AB. Tbh I expect the devs would've noticed that by now given they've been flying their Dramiels so long. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.07.09 12:55:00 - [815] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington I'll just leave this here. That information is worthless, testing one rocket launcher on a Hawk, compared to a Reaper with 2 ACs, and damage mods, and probably a light drone isn't very helpful, we all know that rockets suck, but this just wastes peoples time. ---
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.09 15:59:00 - [816] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 09/07/2010 15:59:54 Quote: That information is worthless, testing one rocket launcher on a Hawk, compared to a Reaper with 2 ACs, and damage mods, and probably a light drone isn't very helpful, we all know that rockets suck, but this just wastes peoples time. FYI, that was four rocket launchers with a BCU. Stfu please. Also: Re-posting for emphasis. 3 launchers+: (Primary weapon) Hawk Vengeance Malediction Crow Kestrel Breacher (lol, yeah, I know...) Inquisitor Flycatcher Heretic Worm (easily the most lolworthy pirate frigate right now) Caldari Navy Hookbill (Changed to pure rockets from split weapon AFTER CCP ACKNOWLEDGED THEY WERE BROKEN) Split weapons (half and half rockets/guns) Merlin Tristan Eris Extra launcher high slot (meh) Rifter Republic fleet Firetail Harpy Cormorant Thrasher Claw Stiletto Raptor Enyo Jaguar Wolf VINDICATOR DRAMIEL BECAUSE OF TANKY SHUTTLE FALCON _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.07.11 05:16:00 - [817] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 09/07/2010 18:12:00 Quote: That information is worthless, testing one rocket launcher on a Hawk, compared to a Reaper with 2 ACs, and damage mods, and probably a light drone isn't very helpful, we all know that rockets suck, but this just wastes peoples time. That was four rocket launchers with a BCU. Worth repeating. BTW you forgot the Condor. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
matr0x	Posted - 2010.07.11 06:56:00 - [818] /signed buff rockets please. It is sad that rocket ships just fit projectile weapons which are easier to fit and do better dps.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.11 11:49:00 - [819] Quote: BTW you forgot the Condor. Fixed _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Voridor Malevolence Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.11 20:53:00 - [820] this is getting stupid

yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.13 11:38:00 - [821] If I lock it and fire a rocket will I be able to pop it? _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.13 12:01:00 - [822] Dont worry. In 18-24 months CCP will have resources to check whats broken in this game and make list of things to fix. Then another 12-24 months of implementation and we should have rockets fixed by 2014. In the meantime we will be able to redo our avatars and sit in spacebarTM (or just ignore it altogether, same way i did it with PI).
Captain Mastiff	Posted - 2010.07.13 15:28:00 - [823] Don't worry, once Incarna hits we'll be sitting in a PObar drinking juma juice and we'll think back to this moment, laugh and say... "Why did we ever expect them to fix it?".
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.07.13 18:22:00 - [824] Yay rockets by 2014 \o/. I love that all I got out of the CSM Summit notes is 'CCP only cares about(crappy)shiny new features and increasing its subscribed members', instead of 'CCP cares too much about its current player base to continue on their downward spiral, and will begin fixing the 2,000 broken in game features immediately.' _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2010.07.13 21:38:00 - [825] Originally by: Krennel Darius Yay rockets by 2014 \o/. We'll just go ahead and stop working on these changes siting on our internal servers then shall we if you want to wait till then Rocket changes slipped from the Tyrannis release window due to delays in tasks above it but are being worked on currently internally as we indicated previously in another forum thread that this summer is a good time for balancing work and it sits at the top of our balancing backlog. What we cannot say in game design is when you will see the changes publicly as the release windows/patches are subject to much wider scheduling considerations and issues. So for now the take away message is they are getting love and making their way down the development pipeline and will be released in some future release. However to digress on that CSM quote a little since I have been on the 'CCP council' as part of the team representing eve game design since the CSM was conceived at every summit besides the last one. Perhaps I can attempt to clarify make things clearer with a 'view from the trenches' of eve development as we seem to be misquoted here or we just dropped the ball at conveying the correct message there (which is possible, mistakes happen!) ...'I heard no fixes or improvements for 18 months rabble rabble 11one11one111!' It is more correct view to say our 'major' project slots are all provisionally filled for at least the next three expansions (You should all hopefully be aware of Incarna for example which is our biggest ever feature in development. These naturally have big budgets and lots of advance planning and development which spans many releases) and that there is less room for the major CSM project requests such as role system overhauls to an ACL format/addition of security clearance levels ideas for eg (stuff we have talked about in the previous fanfest roundtables and with the CSM) which is a complex and major project with high technical risk alongside those. However related to that area of game mechanics, we did very recently internally create the diplomat role (allows you to manage a corporations standings) following on from the recent standings management overhaul in Tyrannis which added many usability improvements to starbase/station management and the difficulty surrounding standings management as a sneak peak of smaller sets of improvements making their way down the development pipeline if not the complete corp role system overhaul in its entirety. As mentioned in the minutes, a hulluva lot of time is going into lag investigation and it is important to us that we try to alleviate this where we can. Every time we run a mass test, QA and software are trialling new fixes or deploying specific logging tools to investigate why modules get stuck deactivating for an example of one symptoms under investigation. We have always spent ~20-30% of our development time on bugs and hardening. As history should show there is always a typically a slew of improvements and fixes alongside each major expansion which matter to many players if not necessarily yourself personally always. That cadence has not changed at all and even got better given that we carried on working on Planetary Interaction as a major feature (stuff that spans multiple sprints and teams) for a second concurrent release and that is unprecedented in our history to iterate so soon after a first release on a major feature with almost the same level of development resources. ... Now lets see how many of you can pay attention to the next part! If you want to respond to my comments on the CSM minutes quote, take it to another appropriate thread. Let's just keep it to rockets discussion here if possible. I just wanted to detail that rockets are being worked on and that the quote you mention from the minutes is incorrect or out of context. -Chronotis

Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.07.13 22:31:00 - [826] Edited by: Helicity Boson on 13/07/2010 22:31:52 Originally by: CCP Chronotis Rocket changes slipped from the Tyrannis release window due to delays in tasks above it but are being worked on currently internally as we indicated previously in another forum thread that this summer is a good time for balancing work and it sits at the top of our balancing backlog. Forgive my obvious scepticism at this point. But for the sake of formality let me ask you then: "can you tell us/give an indication of what sort of fix it is you have sitting on your internal test servers? and possibly when/if you will finally release it in the coming 2-6 years"
Dragon Greg	Posted - 2010.07.13 22:38:00 - [827] Originally by: CCP Chronotis If you want to respond to my comments on the CSM minutes quote, take it to another appropriate thread. Let's just keep it to rockets discussion here if possible. I just wanted to detail that rockets are being worked on and that the quote you mention from the minutes is incorrect or out of context. -Chronotis Well, I have to say this is one of the better recent attempts to spin :P Showing little things, polishing impressions, taking things a little off track, this time even wrapped so neatly that you have to cut into it in order to respond by means of a quote :P Kudos :-) Still, since you mix things together in the current topic, you can't just pass off the ****tail and then expect people to take the straw to another section or thread :P Thing is, none of what you said holds firm in light of the visible contradictions and discrepancies visible from the execs, the communication, the prioritisation and the rapid changes of focus, or even from examples like the road and roadmap to EVE Gate or balance changes. You're welcome to engage in a proper discussion in the relevant thread btw, but please don't try this again. The time has passed for people to just wing it :P
Cordin Hamir	Posted - 2010.07.13 22:59:00 - [828] I feel that many of the current issues (including rockets assault ships etc.) stem from CCP's seeming inability to ever actually focus on anything for more than a few months. A couple of years ago the big thing was walking in stations and the focus was all on how cool that would be, then there was a switch to factional warfare that would revolutionise the game, next came sovereignty changes - 0.0 would be revolutionised and now we have PI. In each case we had the new/changed features hyped up many promises on the features that would 'eventually' be added followed by a launch, bugs and then forgetfulness as the developers moved on to the next grand project. Often times it seems more like watching 8 year olds high on sugar jumping from one new thrill to the next rather than a measured and planned approach.
Polysynchronicity Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.13 23:09:00 - [829] I'm sorry, but I can't believe in any promises of fixes that aren't attached to a release date or even an idea of what you're planning to change in order to solve the problem. All I can gather from your post is that someone did something on your test server and it might be released someday. For all we know that "something" could be one person doing a half-hour of tweaking variables and "someday" could be a year away. You (or whoever the boss that assigned you to firefighting is) are basically trying to placate us while promising and delivering absolutely nothing. ---------- Now recruiting:
Bomberlocks Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2010.07.13 23:19:00 - [830] Originally by: CCP Chronotis ... We'll just go ahead and stop working on these changes siting on our internal servers then shall we if you want to wait till then Rocket changes slipped from the Tyrannis release window due to delays in tasks above it but are being worked on currently internally as we indicated previously in another forum thread that this summer is a good time for balancing work and it sits at the top of our balancing backlog. What we cannot say in game design is when you will see the changes publicly as the release windows/patches are subject to much wider scheduling considerations and issues. So for now the take away message is they are getting love and making their way down the development pipeline and will be released in an upcoming future release. However to digress on that CSM quote a little since I have been on the 'CCP council' as part of the team representing eve game design since the CSM was conceived at every summit besides the last one. Perhaps I can attempt to clarify and make things clearer with a 'view from the trenches' of eve development as we seem to be misquoted here or we just dropped the ball at conveying the correct message there (which is possible, mistakes happen!) ...'I heard no fixes or improvements for 18 months rabble rabble 11one11one111!' .... .... ... We have always spent ~20-30% of our development time on bugs and hardening. As history should show there is always a typically a slew of improvements and fixes alongside each major expansion which matter to many players if not necessarily yourself personally always. .... ... Now lets see how many of you can pay attention to the next part! If you want to respond to my comments on the CSM minutes quote, take it to another appropriate thread. Let's just keep it to rockets discussion here if possible. I just wanted to detail that rockets are being worked on and that the quote you mention from the minutes is incorrect or out of context. -Chronotis I am deeply sceptical. This sounds like an attempt at damage control due to the CSM bombshell. No, I don't think "mistake were made in putting out the message". I don't think rockets are particularly hard to fix that they could not have been included in tyrannis. I do think that you simply had ignored it, and are now trying to claw back some player/customer trust by pretending that it wasn't ignored/forgotten. If not, for the love of god, why the hell do you only respond now, when so many of the player veterans are considering quitting that you as a company have a serious problem on your hands? No, the CSM minutes and the player interpretations of them are spot on (and no, I won't take it to another thread, because you'll ignore that like you do most player requests). No transparency and no communication (only now in damage control mode), on top of which you're on the edge of calling the CSM liars, which does not shine a happy light on your credibility at all.

Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.13 23:31:00 - [831] A blue has posted, the world is not ending! Or wait... Chronotis, are you the harbinger of doom? Anyway... Yeah nice to know rockets are getting love, though some info would be good (and it'd be nice to know if there's somebody working on AFs as well, since they are affected by rockets too...)
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.13 23:36:00 - [832] Originally by: CCP Chronotis We'll just go ahead and stop working on these changes siting on our internal servers then shall we if you want to wait till then Many thanks for taking time to reply to this thread (and well done for not swearing at us, I'd be tempted if I was in your position). Something that has been noted many times by engineers is that rocket science itself is not particularly complicated, it's things like not bumping in to satellites and trying to urinate in zero gravity that are difficult. What your post seemed to convey is that you've not done the rocket science but you've made great advances in urination. Please take that with humour, I'm very much looking forward to incarna, dust and the general feel of being in a universe that's got more than just pod goo fanatics however this thread is not asking for anything complicated. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Noertti Unicorn and Rainbow Appreciation Inc.	Posted - 2010.07.13 23:37:00 - [833] I don't believe it until I see it. CCP has make only empty promises for the past year. Also if you dedicate 20-30% of your time to bug fixing why are there still bugs present that have been reported over a year ago? (Hello mister broken catalyst model) or since their introduction (hello changing i-hub RF timers, hello undocumented behavior when a station falls in a sov siege before the ihub is destroyed, hello numerous FW bugs)....... Yes, each expansion has thus far fixed few cosmetic things like typos and removing the jump clone amount from motherships, but your bugfixing isn't even keeping up with the amount of bugs introduced in each expansion.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2010.07.13 23:40:00 - [834] Originally by: Helicity Boson can you tell us/give an indication of what sort of fix it is you have sitting on your internal test servers? and possibly when/if you will finally release it in the coming 2-6 years" A boost, we recognise that rockets do not really pack the punch they should when they compare to other weapons of the equivalent class. We cannot really say more openly until we get to the point where further details will be released in the usual blogs as we near the public testing stage. Needless to say we have kept up with the feedback at the start of the thread when there was good discussion going on so aware of the various suggestions. When is much harder for any of us to answer, each upcoming release has a focus but we do release two major content expansions and the next one is the winter release of those so at the very least, it will be part of that.

Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.07.13 23:47:00 - [835] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Helicity Boson can you tell us/give an indication of what sort of fix it is you have sitting on your internal test servers? and possibly when/if you will finally release it in the coming 2-6 years" A boost, we recognise that rockets do not really pack the punch they should when they compare to other weapons of the equivalent class. We cannot really say more openly until we get to the point where further details will be released in the usual blogs as we near the public testing stage. Needless to say we have kept up with the feedback at the start of the thread when there was good discussion going on so aware of the various suggestions. When is much harder for any of us to answer, each upcoming release has a focus but we do release two major content expansions and the next one is the winter release of those so at the very least, it will be part of that. I'm calling your bluff. You have nothing, this is hot air. pics or it didn't happen.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.13 23:48:00 - [836] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac A blue has posted, the world is not ending! Or wait... Chronotis, are you the harbinger of doom? Anyway... Yeah nice to know rockets are getting love, though some info would be good (and it'd be nice to know if there's somebody working on AFs as well, since they are affected by rockets too...) To be fair he did a good job on bombers (though I'd still like to see a cruise subsystem for T3 frigs ) If you are doing AF's Chronotis then please for the love of god give the hawk the same 7 mid/low slots as every other tackle AF.....and working rockets. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2010.07.13 23:59:00 - [837] Originally by: Dragon Greg Well, I have to say this is one of the better recent attempts to spin :P 'twas merely responding to the original reply we quoted where at least when it came to rockets, a statement from us of 2014 as a release date for the improvement was wrong and we wanted to correct that given this change has begun its journey down the development pipeline. We have been keeping tabs on the discussion here for when the work was due to begin which it has. However I am most certainly guilty of digressing and perhaps divulging too much of things not wholly related to rockets alone and indeed should be a discussion and focus of another better thread started on purpose by us by those of us concerned with more than just rockets alone. That shall be corrected in the near future to separate the topics which was our intention.

Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.07.14 00:02:00 - [838] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Dragon Greg Well, I have to say this is one of the better recent attempts to spin :P 'twas merely responding to the original reply we quoted where at least when it came to rockets, a statement from us of 2014 as a release date for the improvement was wrong and we wanted to correct that given this change has begun its journey down the development pipeline. We have been keeping tabs on the discussion here for when the work was due to begin which it has. However I am most certainly guilty of digressing and perhaps divulging too much of things not wholly related to rockets alone and indeed should be a discussion and focus of another better thread started on purpose by us by those of us concerned with more than just rockets alone. That shall be corrected in the near future to separate the topics which was our intention. You strike me as a smart person actually. I sincerely hope then, that this "addressing" will take the form of new policies and direction and a true dedication to excellence, communication and respect for the customers, and not spin, lies and dishonesty. We're done with that. but we still love you, if you only love us back, we will always forgive you <3
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.14 00:12:00 - [839] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Dragon Greg Well, I have to say this is one of the better recent attempts to spin :P 'twas merely responding to the original reply we quoted where at least when it came to rockets, a statement from us of 2014 as a release date for the improvement was wrong and we wanted to correct that given this change has begun its journey down the development pipeline. We have been keeping tabs on the discussion here for when the work was due to begin which it has. However I am most certainly guilty of digressing and perhaps divulging too much of things not wholly related to rockets alone and indeed should be a discussion and focus of another better thread started on purpose by us by those of us concerned with more than just rockets alone. That shall be corrected in the near future to separate the topics which was our intention. ... ...... <3 Stare at dev blog refreshing every 5 seconds _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2010.07.14 01:00:00 - [840] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Dragon Greg Well, I have to say this is one of the better recent attempts to spin :P 'twas merely responding to the original reply we quoted where at least when it came to rockets, a statement from us of 2014 as a release date for the improvement was wrong and we wanted to correct that given this change has begun its journey down the development pipeline. We have been keeping tabs on the discussion here for when the work was due to begin which it has. However I am most certainly guilty of digressing and perhaps divulging too much of things not wholly related to rockets alone and indeed should be a discussion and focus of another better thread started on purpose by us by those of us concerned with more than just rockets alone. That shall be corrected in the near future to separate the topics which was our intention. I really think you should just stop posting now. It's really no use, and you can only get yourself in trouble with this. You can't convincingly spin something you don't really believe in. The CSM minutes were abundantly clear. CCP is not going to spend any meaningful amount of resources on fixing the issues that truly matter to the players and the CSM for some 18 to 24 months. We know this. Nathan has made his position abundantly clear. And yes, we too think it is a poor decision. But threads or canned PR blogs to somehow spin this aren't going to work. And neither is hastily promising to fix some minor issues in some undetermined future in the hope that we'll somehow forget about this. We play this game. We encounter the broken content CCP has released on a daily basis. No amount of promised shiny is going to alter that perception. So don't bother with the spin and the promises, leave that to the people who actually made these decisions. -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.14 01:10:00 - [841] Look at it this way, if this was WoW, the devs wouldn't even be reading the forums, let alone posting on them. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems	Posted - 2010.07.14 01:19:00 - [842] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Dragon Greg Well, I have to say this is one of the better recent attempts to spin :P 'twas merely responding to the original reply we quoted where at least when it came to rockets, a statement from us of 2014 as a release date for the improvement was wrong and we wanted to correct that given this change has begun its journey down the development pipeline. We have been keeping tabs on the discussion here for when the work was due to begin which it has. However I am most certainly guilty of digressing and perhaps divulging too much of things not wholly related to rockets alone and indeed should be a discussion and focus of another better thread started on purpose by us by those of us concerned with more than just rockets alone. That shall be corrected in the near future to separate the topics which was our intention. I do believe Greg is pointing out that you replied to my post saying that rocket fixes are years away so soon after the CSM Summit notes basically dragged you through the mud. Also, that is not the first time I have made a post in that regard, and not received such a response. But, all will be forgiven if rockets are fixed in the next expansion. If you include an AF boost too that would be cool. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Baillif Red Mist Inc.	Posted - 2010.07.14 07:50:00 - [843] THE ROCKET FIX IS A LIE
Carla Messer	Posted - 2010.07.14 07:51:00 - [844] Originally by: Baillif THE ROCKET FIX IS A LIE This tbh
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc	Posted - 2010.07.14 07:55:00 - [845] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Dragon Greg Well, I have to say this is one of the better recent attempts to spin :P 'twas merely responding to the original reply we quoted where at least when it came to rockets, a statement from us of 2014 as a release date for the improvement was wrong and we wanted to correct that given this change has begun its journey down the development pipeline. We have been keeping tabs on the discussion here for when the work was due to begin which it has. However I am most certainly guilty of digressing and perhaps divulging too much of things not wholly related to rockets alone and indeed should be a discussion and focus of another better thread started on purpose by us by those of us concerned with more than just rockets alone. That shall be corrected in the near future to separate the topics which was our intention. First of all, thank you for your reply. It IS reassuring when a dev says "we're working on it". But I think you know where that quote stems from. The state of Rockets were pointed out during Quantum Rise and that is a long time ago. The fact that CCP fix balance issues during the summer and not all year makes us a bit sad. Because in reality it means that once a year you address one or two issues out of a complete harvest of low hanging fruit. It's a bottleneck and if Rockets gets fixed this summer we all know that Black Ops, AFs, Destroyers, Blasters or whatever on the long list of old imbalances will not be resolved this year either. .
Bomberlocks Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2010.07.14 08:26:00 - [846] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Dragon Greg Well, I have to say this is one of the better recent attempts to spin :P 'twas merely responding to the original reply we quoted where at least when it came to rockets, a statement from us of 2014 as a release date for the improvement was wrong and we wanted to correct that given this change has begun its journey down the development pipeline. We have been keeping tabs on the discussion here for when the work was due to begin which it has. However I am most certainly guilty of digressing and perhaps divulging too much of things not wholly related to rockets alone and indeed should be a discussion and focus of another better thread started on purpose by us by those of us concerned with more than just rockets alone. That shall be corrected in the near future to separate the topics which was our intention. It might well be before 2014, say 2012. I think this is a honestly pathetic attempt to placate the increasing player hostility. You can pull the wool over everyone's eyes some of the time, but you can't pull the wool over all the players' eyes all of the time.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.07.14 10:10:00 - [847] You need to change two numbers to fix rockets, if you are afraid it makes them OP then change them a little bit only, what could have been done ages ago. Serious it isnt that hard to fix rockets. Maybe they are just waiting until they need to release something to prevent an angry mob from invading CCP server room.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.14 10:29:00 - [848] Originally by: CCP Chronotis A boost, we recognise that rockets do not really pack the punch they should when they compare to other weapons of the equivalent class. We cannot really say more openly until we get to the point where further details will be released in the usual blogs as we near the public testing stage. Needless to say we have kept up with the feedback at the start of the thread when there was good discussion going on so aware of the various suggestions. I hope you do recognise other problems with rockets other than damage itself: - inability to deal decent damage to small targets (especially ABing frigs) without using 1+ (2+ for Ab ships) webs or multiple painters which is impossible to put on one frig --> explo velocity and DamageReductionFactor issue - short range due to how rocket is fired from ship (in front of) and due to rocket being "dumb" and not following target for around a second after a launch (which is around 1/3 of its total flight time = loses 1/3 of its range before it even starts to track target) - inability to hit non-webbed MWD frigs due to low velocity (3-4km/s wheras heavy missiles/cruises get upwards to 8km/s... its funny when heavy missile can catch up to ceptor and frig vs frig weapon cant) And probably few more im forgetting at the moment. My point is: if you really plan on redoing rockets (as was stated by DEV in one of many random "fix it" threads) then at least do it right. And honestly if i were to chose only ONE fix from list above then Explo velocity/DRF is the most important one, much more than damage itself. Two fixes? Previous one + damage.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.14 10:43:00 - [849] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 14/07/2010 10:43:19 Re-posting for emphasis. 3 launchers+: (Primary weapon) Hawk Vengeance Malediction Crow Kestrel Breacher* Inquisitor Flycatcher Heretic Worm Caldari Navy Hookbill* Condor"" Split weapons (half and half rockets/guns) Merlin Tristan Eris Extra launcher high slot (meh) Rifter Republic fleet Firetail Harpy Cormorant Thrasher Claw Stiletto Raptor Enyo Jaguar Wolf VINDICATOR DRAMIEL BECAUSE OF TANKY SHUTTLE FALCON Also severely handicapped by stupid slot layout. * Worst pirate frigate by a longshot. Could've just given it hybrids or good fitting for standards but no. * Changed to pure rockets from split weapon AFTER CCP ACKNOWLEDGED THEY WERE BROKEN. Good job on the pre-nerf there! "" Due partly to the stupid and obsolete tier system but still belongs there. _________________________________ Originally by:** Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.14 10:47:00 - [850] Small re-post from my previous post, sums up most (all?) issues: List of issues with rockets (complete): - inability to deal decent damage to small targets (especially ABing frigs) without using 1+ (2+ for Ab ships) webs or multiple painters which is impossible to put on one frig --> explo velocity and DamageReductionFactor issue - low damage (DPS) values. Bonused rocket launchers (+25% damage) are outclassed even by lowest tier autocannons and lasers - small clip capacity. Increase it to 80 (?) as rockets already lose circa 10% dps from reloads alone. Reducing ROF and upping damage (so DPS stays the same) would also help the issue a bit. Yet another way: reduce size of rockets. - short range due to how rocket is fired from ship (in front of) and due to rocket being "dumb" and not following target for around a second after a launch (which is around 1/3 of its total flight time = loses 1/3 of its range before it even starts to track target) - inability to hit non-webbed MWD frigs due to low velocity (3-4km/s wheras heavy missiles/cruises get upwards to 8km/s... its funny when heavy missile can catch up to ceptor and frig vs frig weapon cant) - "missile agility" issue. Old test of mine: rockets change dirtection (while following target) each second. This means that target which turns fast will not be hit at all (they have like 2 direction changes and are gone). Tested on close range orbit ceptor (think he was 500m orbit, landed at 3,5km from me doing around 2km/s) - with skills 5/5/dictors 4 (heretic, thus additional 40% to rocket velocity) he was hit 3 times out of around 100 rockets fired. - fitting issues of t2 rocket launchers on some ships. Example: heretic. Fitting 6 rocket launchers eats most of CPU ship has to offer. Any decent anti-frig setup (similiar to sabre: extender, web, damage mod, bubble blower, guns/rockets) will hit the CPU wall (and grid wall soon after) wheras sabre or catcher has no big issues fitting it all. If i missed any please say so, ill add them to the list and copy-paste from time to time (can be on start of every page ;p)

Larinioides cornutus	Posted - 2010.07.14 11:04:00 - [851] Their current schedule on rocket might be fixing its explosion graphics. I personally think it's outdated and is not taking advantage of the new premium graphics, just like old sebo and cyno effects was. /sarcasm off ----- Cloak doesnt need fixing. It is like in real life, one is not a threat and should not be paid attention until he reveal his explosive belt. Americans should stop all funding on finding terrori
Yanna Karr Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.07.14 11:23:00 - [852] Originally by: van Uber First of all, thank you for your reply. It IS reassuring when a dev says "we're working on it". No, not really. Seeing it on the test server would be reassuring.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.07.14 12:42:00 - [853] Originally by: Yanna Karr Seeing it on the test server would be reassuring.
Libin Herobi	Posted - 2010.07.14 12:59:00 - [854] Edited by: Libin Herobi on 14/07/2010 13:00:01 Edited by: Libin Herobi on 14/07/2010 12:59:16 Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Dragon Greg Well, I have to say this is one of the better recent attempts to spin :P 'twas merely responding to the original reply we quoted where at least when it came to rockets, a statement from us of 2014 as a release date for the improvement was wrong and we wanted to correct that given this change has begun its journey down the development pipeline. We have been keeping tabs on the discussion here for when the work was due to begin which it has. So you have started to "boost" rockets but you are unable to say when it will be released? How long do you expect this to take: days, weeks, months? And actually you did not correct the release date, you just stated that it was not 2014. Looking at some of the statements from CCP ("after Dominion" does not mean directly after Dominion but it means "not before Dominion") this could just as well mean 2015. Put your cards on the table and stop fueling the fire of speculation even more.
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2010.07.14 15:02:00 - [855] And once more... CCP troll, best troll!
Altaree The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.07.14 16:48:00 - [856] Originally by: CCP Chronotis summation: Nathan is now just a big picture guy to whom the smaller projects are noise. I think you guys need a bit more transparency about what is being worked on other than the big fixes. --Altaree
pmchem Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.14 18:41:00 - [857] Chronotis, can you also check out Heavy Assault Missiles when you rebalance Rockets? They're basically the Rockets of medium sized ships and suck compared to HMLs except for very rare cases. Thanks.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.14 19:02:00 - [858] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 14/07/2010 19:05:14 Originally by: pmchem Chronotis, can you also check out Heavy Assault Missiles when you rebalance Rockets? They're basically the Rockets of medium sized ships and suck compared to HMLs except for very rare cases. Thanks. How exactly are they broken? They work fine. If you're firing them from outside scram range with no tackle etc. that's your problem. If anything the problem is that there's no t1 ship smaller than a battlecruiser that can fit them without gimping themselves, but that's a matter of buffing the fitting on the Caracal in particular. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.07.15 02:11:00 - [859] Originally by: Carla Messer Originally by: Baillif THE ROCKET FIX IS A LIE This tbh This ^ So... Why did the Dev's knowingly nerf Roflkets and then release them? Then why did it take so many years to fix Roflkets or at least come out again talking about fixing it. Then can we ask about AF bonuses which usually has a direct relevance to roflkets. Why change the hookbill to a lollable roflket failship when roflkets were already worse off than originally? Why sea sea pea why!? I'm extremely doubtful we will see Roflkets fixed properly, fixing it properly would be either boosting it's DPS so much or increasing explosion velocity. Which I doubt either will happen due to some "balancing issues". SeaSeaPea have felt more unreliable than a cheating girlfriend the past few years.
pmchem Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.15 03:27:00 - [860] Edited by: pmchem on 15/07/2010 03:29:27 Edited by: pmchem on 15/07/2010 03:28:21 Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 14/07/2010 19:05:14 Originally by: pmchem Chronotis, can you also check out Heavy Assault Missiles when you rebalance Rockets? They're basically the Rockets of medium sized ships and suck compared to HMLs except for very rare cases. Thanks. How exactly are they broken? They work fine. If you're firing them from outside scram range with no tackle etc. that's your problem. If anything the problem is that there's no t1 ship smaller than a battlecruiser that can fit them without gimping themselves, but that's a matter of buffing the fitting on the Caracal in particular. Check a DPS graph in EFT (not a DPS fit # - but the graph vs a specific target) of HAM and HML using faction ammo, on a Drake or Cerb versus a variety of non-stationary targets. You'll see what I mean pretty quickly.

Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.07.15 07:50:00 - [861] Originally by: pmchem Check a DPS graph in EFT (not a DPS fit # - but the graph vs a specific target) of HAM and HML using faction ammo, on a Drake or Cerb versus a variety of non-stationary targets. You'll see what I mean pretty quickly. No, I don't see what you mean. HAMs are designed to be used inside web range. Hence, with your target webbed. If you're using HAMs on a Cerberus, well, more fool you. The situation with roflkets is not comparable because the HAM Drake fit a web easily and its cruiser-size targets are only very rarely ABing.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2010.07.15 10:08:00 - [862] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 14/07/2010 19:05:14 Originally by: pmchem Chronotis, can you also check out Heavy Assault Missiles when you rebalance Rockets? They're basically the Rockets of medium sized ships and suck compared to HMLs except for very rare cases. Thanks. How exactly are they broken? They work fine. If you're firing them from outside scram range with no tackle etc. that's your problem. In exactly the same way, as rockets. To a lesser degree ONLY due to the fact that relative speed dispersion for cruisers is less than for frigates. So the difference is less noticable, but it's still there. Torps, the same, but it's even harder to notice, as the difference in speed between slowboating, AB'ing, MWD'ing BS and the flying torp is small. -- Thanks CCP for cu

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2010.07.15 10:56:00 - [863] Originally by: Tonto Auri Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 14/07/2010 19:05:14 Originally by: pmchem Chronotis, can you also check out Heavy Assault Missiles when you rebalance Rockets? They're basically the Rockets of medium sized ships and suck compared to HMLs except for very rare cases. Thanks. How exactly are they broken? They work fine. If you're firing them from outside scram range with no tackle etc. that's your problem. In exactly the same way, as rockets. To a lesser degree ONLY due to the fact that relative speed dispersion for cruisers is less than for frigates. So the difference is less noticable, but it's still there. Torps, the same, but it's even harder to notice, as the difference in speed between slowboating, AB'ing, MWD'ing BS and the flying torp is small. This is one of the primary issues surrounding the possible changes and which route we take. The unguided missiles from rockets to HAMs or torpedoes were intended to be much more effective weapons against larger ship classes which is reflected in their stats rather than be equally effective vs the same hulls. However as Tonto points out the relative velocity and sig radius min/max is much less variable as you move up to cruisers and battleships. Ships like HAM drake or HAM sacrilege perform their roles well as do the torp ravens. However rocket crows or vengeance lack the punch these lot serve and that is most likely what we will address. If we still intend to keep this role for the unguided missiles, then a damage increase would be done along with some changes to explosion velocity and radius with perhaps some changes to the light missiles to ensure they are effective anti-frigate missiles for example if we went that route.

yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.15 11:57:00 - [864] Originally by: CCP Chronotis If we still intend to keep this role for the unguided missiles, then a damage increase would be done along with some changes to explosion velocity and radius with perhaps some changes to the light missiles to ensure they are effective anti-frigate missiles for example if we went that route. Just do it, you know it's the right thing to do _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.15 12:06:00 - [865] Quote: If we still intend to keep this role for the unguided missiles, then a damage increase would be done along with some changes to explosion velocity and radius with perhaps some changes to the light missiles to ensure they are effective anti-frigate missiles for example if we went that route. If I may make a suggestion, have you considered dropping the power grid reqs slightly on standards? It has to be said, they are absurdly high considering they also come with a large CPU cost and most of the ships that use them have very poor grid. It would be fine if not for the fact unlike turret users, missile ships only have one choice of long range weapon. It's sort of the equivilent of removing all but the highest caliber turrets. But anyway, thanks for the reply. I'm actually feeling pretty optimistic about these changes you have in mind. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.15 12:38:00 - [866] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 15/07/2010 12:41:39 Originally by: CCP Chronotis This is one of the primary issues surrounding the possible changes and which route we take. The unguided missiles from rockets to HAMs or torpedoes were intended to be much more effective weapons against larger ship classes which is reflected in their stats rather than be equally effective vs the same hulls. However as Tonto points out the relative velocity and sig radius min/max is much less variable as you move up to cruisers and battleships. Ships like HAM drake or HAM sacrilege perform their roles well as do the torp ravens. However rocket crows or vengeance lack the punch these lot serve and that is most likely what we will address. HAMS do only 25% more DPS than HMLs but they fortunately hit well vs their own size. Also even tho they have slightly worse stats for hitting faster ships thing you pointed out (less diversity in velocity/sig radius in cruiser class) needs to be taken into consideration. But there is another important facto about the hulls they are being used on: cruiser/BC hulls have enough midslots to actually mount web+scram on every setup. Their designed targets (cruiser sized ships) even when ABing can be webbed and get hit by most of DPS again. Wheras rockets are default anti-frig system BUT ABing frig is actually so damn fast (and rocket stats so bad) you need 2 webs to bring them back to normal DPS level. Result? HAM using cruiser needs 3 mids to be effective: mwd/ab+web+scrambler, where rocket frig needs 3: mwd/ab+2xweb+scrambler. As for "effectiv vs larger hulls" i always thought its not missile system itself (rocket/HAM/torp) but rage ammo that was supposed to hit larger targets. As previously: normal HAMs hit cruisers well. Normal torps hit battleships well (tho imo tad weaker than HAM vs cruiser). But rockets? Ugh... we know the story. TBH better go to "long range weaker, short range stronger" missiles rather than "long range weak, larger targets stronger" style. Ships should have ability to engage at both distances vs their own respective hull sizes without problems. And when it comes to oversized targets - leave this to specialist (t2) ship hulls like bombers. They are prime example of very high DPS boat that can engage only larger hull size. And add anti-capital ship bomber with citadels and OMG WTF dps /dream mode. Quote: If we still intend to keep this role for the unguided missiles, then a damage increase would be done along with some changes to explosion velocity and radius with perhaps some changes to the light missiles to ensure they are effective anti-frigate missiles for example if we went that route. If it was up to me (all round missile changes/balance): up HAM damage a little bit again (10% perhaps), reduce torp explo radius a little, fix rockets (via stuff in this thread), buff cruises a little, change fitting on standards. Also t2 ammo: precissions need a buff badly as there is no point in using them compared to CN ammo (CN has like 5% less DPS vs undersized targets but 2x the range). From all missiles in this game Heavy missiles are the best balanced ones and should be a template for cruises/standards in their own respective ship classes. Hams/torps would need little tweaks to become "template" but they arent bad, just somewhat lacking in longer run. Oh yea i forgot: there is slight problem with HAMs ;p If you buff them drake will go from awesome to omgnerf. So maybe in the end dont touch em... FAKE EDIT: i re-edited this 3 times while posting so might be mish-mashed a little ;p
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.15 12:41:00 - [867] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 15/07/2010 12:46:03 Quote: Check a DPS graph in EFT I just did. My cookie cutter HAM Drake vs a webbed and scrammed Rupture. Oh look, I'm getting full damage. In fact on closer inspection I only get reductions when using terror rage, but let's try those vs a Battlecruiser like they're meant to be used on... oh wow, full damage again! HAMs sure are broken. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
pmchem Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.15 14:17:00 - [868] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 15/07/2010 12:46:03 Quote: Check a DPS graph in EFT I just did. My cookie cutter HAM Drake vs a webbed and scrammed Rupture. Oh look, I'm getting full damage. In fact on closer inspection I only get reductions when using terror rage, but let's try those vs a Battlecruiser like they're meant to be used on... oh wow, full damage again! HAMs sure are broken. If you're relying on webs as the only time you use HAMs, that pretty much sums it up right there.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.07.15 14:30:00 - [869] Originally by: CCP Chronotis This is one of the primary issues surrounding the possible changes and which route we take. The unguided missiles from rockets to HAMs or torpedoes were intended to be much more effective weapons against larger ship classes which is reflected in their stats rather than be equally effective vs the same hulls. However as Tonto points out the relative velocity and sig radius min/max is much less variable as you move up to cruisers and battleships. Ships like HAM drake or HAM sacrilege perform their roles well as do the torp ravens. However rocket crows or vengeance lack the punch these lot serve and that is most likely what we will address. If we still intend to keep this role for the unguided missiles, then a damage increase would be done along with some changes to explosion velocity and radius with perhaps some changes to the light missiles to ensure they are effective anti-frigate missiles for example if we went that route. Now this is a very interesting post. It's correct to say that HAMs and torps are balanced around slightly larger and slower targets than HMs and Cruise. However, in practice, this distinction is not readily apparent because HAMs and torps, being short-range weapons, are generally used against webbed targets where the more important means of mitigation of missile damage, speed, is eliminated as an issue by the webbing. There's nothing wrong with continuing this on the frigates scale, in theory - but there is in its current implementation. Firstly, frigates lack medslots and often find it hard to fit a web. The second you acknowledged - the relative velocity and sig radius min/max is much more variable on the frigate scale, than on the scales of cruisers and battleships. This make webbing much more important on the frigate scale, relative to torps and HAMs, with the tertiary effect that a typical ABing frigate requires dual-webbing - almost impossible for a med-slot poor frigate to perform. In the case of the ABing Dramiel, I think that web-stacking means that infinity webs are insufficient...! Such a reliance on webs is bad, as it makes for predictable fits and tactics on the medslot-limited frigates. Aside from any arguments about raw damage increases, the disparity in damage between a webbed non-ABing target and an unwebbed ABing target must be significantly reduced. This suggests that a significant increase in rocket explosion velocity, decrease in explosion radius and/or decrease in Damage Reduction Factor is necessary.
Sith LordX	Posted - 2010.07.15 14:41:00 - [870] Originally by: Helicity Boson Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Dragon Greg Well, I have to say this is one of the better recent attempts to spin :P 'twas merely responding to the original reply we quoted where at least when it came to rockets, a statement from us of 2014 as a release date for the improvement was wrong and we wanted to correct that given this change has begun its journey down the development pipeline. We have been keeping tabs on the discussion here for when the work was due to begin which it has. However I am most certainly guilty of digressing and perhaps divulging too much of things not wholly related to rockets alone and indeed should be a discussion and focus of another better thread started on purpose by us by those of us concerned with more than just rockets alone. That shall be corrected in the near future to separate the topics which was our intention. You strike me as a smart person actually. I sincerely hope then, that this "addressing" will take the form of new policies and direction and a true dedication to excellence, communication and respect for the customers, and not spin, lies and dishonesty. We're done with that. but we still love you, if you only love us back, we will always forgive you <3 Hes obviously smart, he develops games, they get papers when they finish collage for that you know, saying they can develop games.

Jack Dant Minmatar The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre	Posted - 2010.07.16 09:53:00 - [871] Originally by: pmchem If you're relying on webs as the only time you use HAMs, that pretty much sums it up right there. HAMs have a top range of 20km, after which they do 0 damage. An overheated web reaches 13km before gang bonuses, or 17km with a claymore. So anywhere from 65% to 85% of HAM combat will happen in web range. And if you really don't want to be constrained by web range, a single target painter will do the same with a much greater range than your HAMs. If your problem is that you need extra tackle to get full damage against relatively small targets, well, it's the same problem all gun users have.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2010.07.16 10:10:00 - [872] Originally by: CCP Chronotis The unguided missiles from rockets to HAMs or torpedoes were intended to be much more effective weapons against larger ship classes which is reflected in their stats rather than be equally effective vs the same hulls. It's all nice and sound, however, the main problem is - some ships of the same hull became restricted to only shoot larger ships. Without any alternative. Vengeance and Sacrilege coming as examples. HM Sac is somewhat viable, but then lacking her bonus, which bring her on par with current HAM Sac. And there's no other Amarr ships to fly with light missiles. Originally by: CCP Chronotis However as Tonto points out the relative velocity and sig radius min/max is much less variable as you move up to cruisers and battleships. Ships like HAM drake or HAM sacrilege perform their roles well as do the torp ravens. However rocket crows or vengeance lack the punch these lot serve and that is most likely what we will address. I've pointed out more issues with rockets, specifically the reloading time affecting rockets DPS (see the spreadsheet). The bay load is very small compared to RoF, solution would be to increase RoF delay and damage of every rocket by 50% each, increase PG need for launchers, bringing rockets in the area of blasters and autocannons - close-range high-DPS weapon, keeping HAM's and Torps as they are now - "the bigger weapon". Also don't forget rockets velocity, when you're at it. And PG available on ships intended for rockets only... too. Originally by: CCP Chronotis If we still intend to keep this role for the unguided missiles, then a damage increase would be done along with some changes to explosion velocity and radius with perhaps some changes to the light missiles to ensure they are effective anti-frigate missiles for example if we went that route. I don't think this will solve problem with rocket frigates. For bigger ships, that'd work. -- Thanks CCP for cu
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.17 10:30:00 - [873] Originally by: CCP Chronotis The unguided missiles from rockets to HAMs or torpedoes were intended to be much more effective weapons against larger ship classes.....rocket crows or vengeance lack the punch these lot serve and that is most likely what we will address. Could you define 'larger ship classes' please. The ship class up from a raven is a carrier so I assume you mean that torps are for chewing through bigger slower ships in the same class, such as plated geddons? Or have I got the definition wrong and you're saying that rockets are intended to be effective against cruisers rather than heavier frigates like AF's? Originally by: CCP Chronotis perhaps some changes to the light missiles to ensure they are effective anti-frigate missiles for example if we went that route. +1 When flying a light missile crow it's quite distressing the way your damage just disappears if your target starts afterburning in a straight line, would be nice to get a little boost here Many thanks again for your work, please can we see something on sisi soon. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.07.17 15:06:00 - [874] Torps have the explosion radius to deal full damage to tier 3 BS, so it seems to me that that's what "larger ships" means there.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.17 18:54:00 - [875] Originally by: Gypsio III Torps have the explosion radius to deal full damage to tier 3 BS, so it seems to me that that's what "larger ships" means there. Yeah that was my guess, when I mentioned bringing rockets in to line with torps back on page 19 Duchess and Deva spent the next page shouting about 400dps kestrels, just want to make sure of the facts before I upset them again :) Originally by: Tonto Auri Originally by: CCP Chronotis If we still intend to keep this role for the unguided missiles, then a damage increase would be done along with some changes to explosion velocity and radius with perhaps some changes to the light missiles to ensure they are effective anti-frigate missiles for example if we went that route. I don't think this will solve problem with rocket frigates. For bigger ships, that'd work. Depends how it's done, I personally think Chronotis is on the right track. Explosion radius is fine but there's a huge variation in speed between the fastest and slowest frigates, you can make rockets effective against such a wide range of targets by dropping the DRF. This leaves you with explosion velocity and base damage to play with. Low explosion velocity and high damage will be devastating against AF's while allowing interceptors to evade some of the damage, high explosion velocity and low damage will do less damage to AF's but more to interceptors. Because a rocket pilot can not manipulate transversal to their advantage the high explosion velocity and low damage option will always leave the rocket pilot at a disadvantage. EG1: A claw is orbiting a malediction at 500m. Both ships have MWD and scram, neither have a web. For the malediction to hit the claw for 100% damage would require: DRF = 1 Ev = 190 Er = 20 Damage = +20% Ok it's a slightly extreme example but consider for a moment what would happen with those changes in place. Rockets would hit any AF or T1 frig for full damage every time so would need to have less raw damage than a turret ship because they don't lose damage through tracking and falloff. Now lets look at duchess's list of rocket ships: Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington 3 launchers+: (Primary weapon) Hawk Vengeance Malediction Crow Kestrel Breacher (lol, yeah, I know...) Inquisitor Flycatcher Heretic Worm (easily the most lolworthy pirate frigate right now) Caldari Navy Hookbill Notice how many slow ships like the hawk and vengeance are on there? Sure the crow's pretty fast but in many cases the equivalent matari ship could just click keep at range 500m and apply full DPS to you. By making rockets high explosion velocity and low damage the only way to out DPS an equivalent turret ship is to keep them at the edge of scram range and force them in to falloff, guess what, only range bonused ships with faction rockets can do this, not to mention they'd need a web (I may be mistaken but there seemed to be quite a lot of comments in this thread about forcing rocket ships to carry a web). Now for a more torpish low explosion velocity, high damage option: DRF = 1.5 Ev = 100 Er = 20 Damage = + 65% This would put rocket ships about on par with lasers for raw DPS (crow 160dps / crusader 166dps) Without speed mods a jaguar and hawk would be doing about the same DPS at 500m, if the jag fits an AB or the hawk fits a web they can tip the fight in their favour. Suddenly the fight becomes paper rock scissors instead of the jag simply approaching to 500m and overloading its guns. Similarly in a crow vs claw fight you get big variations in DPS for both ships depending on range, speed and fit so the fight would be decided by player skill, rather than a simple mechanism of the claw trying to get as close as possible to maximize its firepower. TL;DR Chronotis has got it right with the torps philosophy, we just need to see it on sisi now _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.17 21:51:00 - [876] Quote: Yeah that was my guess, when I mentioned bringing rockets in to line with torps back on page 19 Duchess and Deva spent the next page shouting about 400dps kestrels, just want to make sure of the facts before I upset them again :) I'm on your side now Also yay page 30 Re-posting for emphasis. 3 launchers+: (Primary weapon) Hawk Vengeance Malediction Crow Kestrel Breacher* Inquisitor Flycatcher Heretic Worm Caldari Navy Hookbill* Condor"" Split weapons (half and half rockets/guns) Merlin Tristan Eris Extra launcher high slot (meh) Rifter Republic fleet Firetail Harpy Cormorant Thrasher Claw Stiletto Raptor Enyo Jaguar Wolf VINDICATOR DRAMIEL BECAUSE OF TANKY SHUTTLE FALCON Also severely handicapped by stupid slot layout. * Worst pirate frigate by a longshot. Could've just given it hybrids or good fitting for standards but no. * Changed to pure rockets from split weapon AFTER CCP ACKNOWLEDGED THEY WERE BROKEN. Good job on the pre-nerf there! "" Due partly to the stupid and obsolete tier system but still belongs there. _________________________________ Originally by:** Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2010.07.17 22:25:00 - [877] oh dear chronotis on the job? gl rocket users he's an industrial and we all know which direction that has taken for a while now - putting the gist back into logistics
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.18 00:38:00 - [878] Originally by: yani dumyat Now for a more torpish low explosion velocity, high damage option: DRF = 1.5 Ev = 100 Er = 20 Damage = + 65% This would put rocket ships about on par with lasers for raw DPS (crow 160dps / crusader 166dps) Its decent idea but as previous issues: would possibly need to change (nerf) kestrel. And maybe change crow somehow. If you have spare time try and run more-less the DPS amount (kinetic/other) on all ships which use rockets (include 1 damage mod on all, just for comparison). As for Ev/Er/DRF stats. For example malediction: 33 sig, 1460with AB. Gets hit by 60% of the DPS. With single web it jumps to 80%. With MWD its 56% and 73% respectively. Kinda funny that with those changes MWD is better at tanking rockets than AB (ofc on ceptors with sig reduction). For dramiel (clear fit, t2 ab or just mwd): AB 58% AB+web 77% MWD 73% (IF rockets actually connect with dram - at those speeds dram should outrun them) MWD+web 96% Looks decent. Ceptors can MWD tank (their role), other frigs need AB. I need to think a little more about... going to sleep for now.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.18 01:33:00 - [879] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 18/07/2010 01:34:59 Quote: Its decent idea but as previous issues: would possibly need to change (nerf) kestrel. 5% rocket damage (kinetic or omni) + 5% shield resist or amount? OR missile velocity bonus Shield bonus would be pretty handy, while a missile velocity bonus would make it fit in more with the Caracal and Raven. /Shrug. Hell while I'm at it I'd love to see it upgraded with an extra mid to bring it in line with the Merlin as a big middle finger to the obsolete tier system. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.07.18 02:43:00 - [880] Originally by: yani dumyat Because a rocket pilot can not manipulate transversal to their advantage the high explosion velocity and low damage option will always leave the rocket pilot at a disadvantage. This is not always true. A rocket user can't manipulate transversal to increase DPS, but you can manipulate transversal to decrease incoming DPS. I've already stated in this thread that the rocket Malediction is a very viable dogfighting interceptor. It beats most Claws by making them fight in falloff, and it beats Crusaders by getting under their guns and tanking the rest of their damage. EVEN WHILE SCRAMMED, a Malediction orbiting a scrammed/webbed 'sader at 500m will still create enough transversal to completely tank a 'saders DPS, even one with damage rigs, heat sinks and MF ammo, while not affecting its own DPS output at all. The combination of having close to the range of pulse lasers with scorch, without any of the tracking problems that lasers have at ultra-close range, can actually be a huge advantage, but the problem is it's so heavily linked to the relative velocity of both combatants that it becomes VERY situational. A rocket Malediction doesn't have a chance vs a competent 'ranis pilot, simply because it has 3 mids which eliminates it's range controlling advantage. The slower a rocket boat gets, and the less mid-slots it has for range control, the less viability rockets have. Quote: EG1: A claw is orbiting a malediction at 500m. No competent Malediction pilot would allow a Claw to orbit them at 500m, unless the Claw was using Barrage and they wanted to try and take advantage of it's tracking penalty to get under the it's guns. Balancing rockets is not as easy as some people think, though I'm still pretty disgruntled at CCP for the amount of time their taking to do it. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.

yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.18 02:56:00 - [881] Edited by: yani dumyat on 18/07/2010 02:58:31 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Its decent idea but as previous issues: would possibly need to change (nerf) kestrel. And maybe change crow somehow. If you have spare time try and run more-less the DPS amount (kinetic/other) on all ships which use rockets (include 1 damage mod on all, just for comparison). Yeah it would require some ship rebalancing, 5% kinetic damage and 10% missile velocity for the kestrel would seem like the caldari norm, though a 5% damage and 5% Ev bonus could be interesting . Also seconding that we should give a big middle finger to the obsolete tier system. This is a screenshot of my damage chart with turrets set to 100% and rockets set to 165%, it's far from complete but does give a rough idea. The crow looks pretty balanced to me, if anything it's the malediction that might be a little bit overpowered. Originally by: Deva Blackfire As for Ev/Er/DRF stats. For example malediction: 33 sig, 1460with AB. Gets hit by 60% of the DPS. With single web it jumps to 80%. With MWD its 56% and 73% respectively. Kinda funny that with those changes MWD is better at tanking rockets than AB (ofc on ceptors with sig reduction). For dramiel (clear fit, t2 ab or just mwd): AB 58% AB+web 77% MWD 73% (IF rockets actually connect with dram - at those speeds dram should outrun them) MWD+web 96% Looks decent. Ceptors can MWD tank (their role), other frigs need AB. I need to think a little more about... going to sleep for now. It's worth noting that a ship orbiting at 500m is significantly slower than one traveling in a straight line, two ships of similar speed orbiting each other will also adjust their orbit a lot which can reduce the speed too. Scram and web would be mandatory for fighting interceptors however - return of the plate fit rocket crow maybe? A MWD dram can outrun all rockets apart from velocity bonused faction ones which can hit if he's in a 2,000m orbit or tighter (It's knowing this sort of thing that makes me such fun at dinner parties). I'm sure the numbers aren't perfect but it's hard to know for sure just by looking at a spreadsheet. Originally by: Roemy Schneider oh dear chronotis on the job? It's all good as long as he drops his DRF's and lets us play with his sisi EDIT: Originally by: Braitai Stuff You make some good points, I need my bed however so I'll sleep on it :) _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2010.07.18 08:23:00 - [882] Bonusing missiles on Kestrel, don't forget that Kessi can't fit standard launchers in any realistical fit. She need either RCU, or PDS, or MAPC to fit it all. -- Thanks CCP for cu
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.18 11:55:00 - [883] Originally by: Tonto Auri Bonusing missiles on Kestrel, don't forget that Kessi can't fit standard launchers in any realistical fit. She need either RCU, or PDS, or MAPC to fit it all. MAPC does not make a fit unrealistic. Standard missile Kestrel is easily doable, just hoping Chronotis saw the post on the last page asking him about the fitting on those. Also WTB that 160 dps rocket Crow _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.19 21:51:00 - [884] Edited by: Gecko O''Bac on 19/07/2010 21:55:33 Speaking of missiles in more broader terms, I don't really get why the shorter range missiles are supposed to be used against bigger classes of ships. Now, I'm fine with trying to diversify the weapons, but if you look at short range turrets, they not only are good against the same class of ships, but are usually better than their long range counterpart at dealing with smaller classes due to the improved tracking... Short range missiles on the other hand have worse "tracking" (EV, ER and DRF) and also worse velocity (IIRC), which in some cases means that you can actually outrun the missile (which is certainly not true for turrets). The short range and the well known launch vector "bug" just exacerbate the issue... Fixing the launch vector thing is not easy (though I did make a proposal some time ago...), but if it's not going to be fixed, it MUST be taken into account. EDIT: Also, T2 missiles suck. Badly. The precision missiles are usually worthless due to minimal difference in "tracking", lower damage and higher DRF. Long range missiles for the short range missile systems give very harsh penalties and very low dps (though they are better than precisions...). The fury/rage versions are not THAT bad, but you need some kind of support (or a limited target choice) to actually gain benefit from using them instead of faction missiles. (It is true though that most T2 ammo would benefit from a balance pass...)
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.07.19 22:39:00 - [885] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Speaking of missiles in more broader terms, I don't really get why the shorter range missiles are supposed to be used against bigger classes of ships. They're not. They're designed to be most effective against tackled ships of the same class. Which is fine, apart from rockets, because these weapons operate within tackle range. Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Short range missiles on the other hand have worse "tracking" (EV, ER and DRF) and also worse velocity (IIRC) Try tackling your targets. The issue will go away - except with rockets, of course. Originally by: Gecko O'Bac EDIT: Also, T2 missiles suck. Badly. The precision missiles are usually worthless due to minimal difference in "tracking", lower damage and higher DRF. Long range missiles for the short range missile systems give very harsh penalties and very low dps (though they are better than precisions...). The fury/rage versions are not THAT bad, but you need some kind of support (or a limited target choice) to actually gain benefit from using them instead of faction missiles. (It is true though that most T2 ammo would benefit from a balance pass...) Precisions - worthless for Lights, becoming slightly less worthless as you increase in size to Cruise. Jav - not very good. Would be useful if it didn't cause a velocity bonus. Scorch doesn't... Rage/Fury. Absolutely fine.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.20 00:14:00 - [886] Edited by: Gecko O''Bac on 20/07/2010 00:18:03 Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Speaking of missiles in more broader terms, I don't really get why the shorter range missiles are supposed to be used against bigger classes of ships. They're not. They're designed to be most effective against tackled ships of the same class. Which is fine, apart from rockets, because these weapons operate within tackle range. Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Short range missiles on the other hand have worse "tracking" (EV, ER and DRF) and also worse velocity (IIRC) Try tackling your targets. The issue will go away - except with rockets, of course. Originally by: Gecko O'Bac EDIT: Also, T2 missiles suck. Badly. The precision missiles are usually worthless due to minimal difference in "tracking", lower damage and higher DRF. Long range missiles for the short range missile systems give very harsh penalties and very low dps (though they are better than precisions...). The fury/rage versions are not THAT bad, but you need some kind of support (or a limited target choice) to actually gain benefit from using them instead of faction missiles. (It is true though that most T2 ammo would benefit from a balance pass...) Precisions - worthless for Lights, becoming slightly less worthless as you increase in size to Cruise. Jav - not very good. Would be useful if it didn't cause a velocity bonus. Scorch doesn't... Rage/Fury. Absolutely fine. Please take your "know-it-all" tone and stuff it back whence it came from. Not a page ago Chronotis stated exactly what I said: the idea behind the short range missiles was for them to be ideally used against bigger classes of ships. And tackle or not tackle, my point still stands, what's the reason for CR missiles to be less effective against the same class and lower classes of ships while the CR turret weapons usually are more effective in those areas? Also, the value of precision missiles is up for debate... the difference in damage from precisions to faction missiles is such that in the 95% of the cases you're better off with the faction missiles. The Ev, ER difference is too low to make a significant difference, while the dmg decrease is more noticeable. They also suffer an increased DRF, which means that they reduce their damage even faster than the non T2 versions. Rage/fury sure are the best of the bunch but "absolutely" fine is quite overestimating their usefulness. Mostly they suffer from the higher DRF compared to the t1/faction versions, this means that not only they need additional support for dealing full damage (webs/painters, flare/rigor rigs, implants, what have you), but as soon as the target gets "away" from the ideal spot for speed/sig, you start losing damage at a faster rate than T1/faction versions, once again hampering a lot their usefulness. And don't forget that T2 missiles have penalties all of their own: mostly, reduced range and what it amounts to a quite narrow target selection, so narrow that no target is actually a good target in some cases. Also, the various maluses to the ship itself, be it speed or signature.
Agallis Zinthros Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.20 08:58:00 - [887] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Mohenna Originally by: Deva Blackfire Where did you get 80 sig from? - their DPS sucks: rocket launcher WITH 25% damage bonus (malediction, vengeance etc) deals as much damage as unbonused 200mm autocannon while its fitting is MUCH worse This. Please CCP, make rockets useful or just remove them from the game and give vengeance / malediction a new bonus It's not piracy, its surprise PVP.
Mohenna Caldari Knights of the Dark	Posted - 2010.07.20 09:11:00 - [888] From the damage control fail thread: Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: CCP Explorer To answer your question, we would work on a defect even if there is a re-factoring task in the backlog. There are a couple of exceptions: () Defects should be issues where the code/content is not in accordance with the design. A defect that is essentially asking for a changed design or a new feature will be resolved as "By Design" or "Feature Request". () When we know that the re-factoring task is imminent then we will close the defects that we know will be resolved by the re-factoring (as an example, once we knew that we would implement IGB2 then we stopped working on IGB defects). So this means that: - A defect must be something that differs from the design. - A defect may be closed as "superseded by another feature" - and no action was taken. - A defect may be closed as "by design" - and no action was taken. - A defect may be closed as "feature request" - and the item was put into the back log. - A defect may be closed as "complete" - and the bug got squished. Thus rockets not dealing appropriate damage to frigates and faction warfare timers being extended/incorrect are defects (or could be argued as such - and I would :P), but Tier 1 BCs being basically obsolete next to Tier 2 ("dropping the tier system") and AFs "missing a bonus" are both "by design" and will be closed as "feature request" and potentially moved into the back log. I assume exploits fall into the defect category? Rockets - by design, fw timers - defect, Tier1/Tier2 - by design, AFs "missing a bonus" - good question, don't know, it depends on what bonus it is "missing" and why. Exploit - defect. So, the rockets are in their current state (since ages ago) because, although they're a known defect, they are a defect "by design" and therefore require a big change. With this I disagree completely, it was because I started the thread: I say (and I think the numbers I brought 18 months ago back me) that it's not by design, but rather an error of data input. It does not make any sense to give rocket 20 explosion radius, and **** explosion speed. Therefore, somebody entered the wrong explosion speed and nobody noticed. It's a defect, not a design error.
Mohenna Caldari Knights of the Dark	Posted - 2010.07.20 10:12:00 - [889] This is what I posted in that thread. Anybody would like to bet on this getting an answer... Originally by: Mohenna Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: CCP Explorer To answer your question, we would work on a defect even if there is a re-factoring task in the backlog. There are a couple of exceptions: () Defects should be issues where the code/content is not in accordance with the design. A defect that is essentially asking for a changed design or a new feature will be resolved as "By Design" or "Feature Request". () When we know that the re-factoring task is imminent then we will close the defects that we know will be resolved by the re-factoring (as an example, once we knew that we would implement IGB2 then we stopped working on IGB defects). So this means that: - A defect must be something that differs from the design. - A defect may be closed as "superseded by another feature" - and no action was taken. - A defect may be closed as "by design" - and no action was taken. - A defect may be closed as "feature request" - and the item was put into the back log. - A defect may be closed as "complete" - and the bug got squished. Thus rockets not dealing appropriate damage to frigates and faction warfare timers being extended/incorrect are defects (or could be argued as such - and I would :P), but Tier 1 BCs being basically obsolete next to Tier 2 ("dropping the tier system") and AFs "missing a bonus" are both "by design" and will be closed as "feature request" and potentially moved into the back log. I assume exploits fall into the defect category? Rockets - by design, fw timers - defect, Tier1/Tier2 - by design, AFs "missing a bonus" - good question, don't know, it depends on what bonus it is "missing" and why. Exploit - defect. CCP Explorer, please, answer a 1.5y old issue! Are rockets really a 'by design' flaw? They must be a bug - an error in the explosion speed, like somebody typing 85 instead of 285.* If this is correct, then the problem is a defect; could you reclassify it and type 2 in front of 85 expl. spd. instead of a coffee break? I'll send you the best beer in the world from Belgium! Totally worth a coffee :-) If my argument is wrong, could you please say why in the thread that I started asking this, and is now 30 pages and 18 months long: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1005679 That would really cheer us up! * numbers deducted by - noting that a less-than-light drone-sized explosion radius and battleship explosion speed don't make any sense together; - comparing the heavies/heavy assaults and cruise/torps differences - more data and proof in the thread above, especially in the first 3-4 pages.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.07.20 11:48:00 - [890] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Please take your "know-it-all" tone and stuff it back whence it came from. Not a page ago Chronotis stated exactly what I said: the idea behind the short range missiles was for them to be ideally used against bigger classes of ships. What Chronotis said was rather misleading. While it is true that HAMs and torps possess larger explosion radii then HMs and Cruise, this does not translate in practice to being more effective against larger classes - because ships of the same class are still large enough to receive no damage mitigation via signature. On the battleship scale, there are no sig radius issues when firing torps against tier 3 BS. On the cruiser scale, there are no signature radius issues when firing HAMs against almost all cruisers (Vagabond, Stabber, Logistics etc). Rockets are crazy though. They have a much smaller exploion radius than LMs (20 m vs. 37.5 m), but also about half the exploion velocity. The small explosion radius indicates that they're designed to be used against small frigates and drones (also contrary to what Chronotis said!), while the low explosion velocity suggests that it's expected that those small frigates and drones be multiply webbed - infinitely webbed, in the case of the Dramiel.

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.20 13:00:00 - [891] Quote: On the battleship scale, there are no sig radius issues when firing torps against tier 3 BS. Just chipping in to note here - my Raven might not be getting full damage on all other battleships, but it's certainly doing enough to hurt a great deal. The fact HAMs are fine isn't even disputable when I'm getting full damage on a properly tackled (cruiser) target. The fact rockets do not have either of the above redeeming factors is a sign that they are by far the most broken of the lot. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2010.07.20 13:09:00 - [892] Originally by: Mohenna ...So, the rockets are in their current state (since ages ago) because, although they're a known defect, they are a defect "by design" and therefore require a big change... Explorer is being too pedantic there for how we classify things from their engineering standpoint. The analogy would be that if design called for the accelerator pedal to be on the roof of the car instead the floor, the engineers would go away and do that. Now when a customer comes along as says this is silly, they respond with "this is how it was designed." There is indeed a fault in the design/product, however the implementation is 'as designed' and thus the design must change (correctly, the precise balancing of attributes which game design does) to fix it. That has not been the cause of the delays however. It was more down to higher priority design tasks sitting above it in queue as I stated in an earlier reply. Rockets/Missiles are being worked on over the summer (most of us are away on vacation currently as we all take it at the same time to help project planning) and you should see a proper blog discussing the initial changes when we are ready for public testing september onwards typically.

Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.20 13:11:00 - [893] I'm not disputing any of the above. I know how hams and tops works, Hell, I fly only caldari ships! But the idea behind was exactly what chronotis stated. And while the effects might be different in the various implementations, the logic behind them still stands. Now, look at short range turrets... Beside the problem of keeping in range your target, do they need tackle to be effective against same (or lower) class ships? Usually nope, though blasters are a lot of suckage on their own :P This is because the weren't meant to be used just against "bigger targets" (or that't what transpires at least). I'm not saying we NEED this to change, except for rockets, but range is already a malus on these weapons... And if the balance between long range turrets and long range missiles is quite good as it is, why should we need additional support for short ranges? I'm asking for clarification, not for a STFU LEARN2PLAY since I can adapt pretty well to what's in game, just wondering about the rational behind this.
Corvin Demeter Caldari Legio XII Fulminata Ferrum 26	Posted - 2010.07.20 15:01:00 - [894] So rockets and missiles are being looked at over the summer...this could be interesting.
Xtover Suicide Kings	Posted - 2010.07.20 16:07:00 - [895] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Rockets/Missiles are being worked on over the summer (most of us are away on vacation currently as we all take it at the same time to help project planning) and you should see a proper blog discussing the initial changes when we are ready for public testing september onwards typically. we've heard this same story before....
Jason1138	Posted - 2010.07.20 16:20:00 - [896] we've got 1 dev here saying that they will be worked on this summer and about 6 devs on ccp zulu's last blog thread refusing to commit to EVER fixing them. including the CEO so who is in the loop and who is out of it?
Kaltooth Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.20 17:06:00 - [897] Originally by: Jason1138 we've got 1 dev here saying that they will be worked on this summer and about 6 devs on ccp zulu's last blog thread refusing to commit to EVER fixing them. including the CEO so who is in the loop and who is out of it? What are you trying to incite here, honestly? What is the bug. We all agree there are balance problems, but there is no bug. You press fire, it fires. The server tracks the object from your ship to the target without errors. The missile and target variables are inputted into a formula and a result is spit out. Again, no errors. What you are trying to call a bug is actually balance. They work. We can argue they don't work as well as other weapon systems, but that isn't a bug. This means, it is part of the feature list, not the bug list. If chronotis is correct on it being on the dev servers, that means they are burning a 2 week sprint to take a poke at it. It doesn't mean it will get done however. There is still a chance that they realize it is more complicated than at first glance and some aha (perhaps a shortcut on tracking missile objects freeing up cpu time) about the lag appeared while looking at missiles. They haven't refused to commit. They can only say it is in the feature list to complete. It is not in the bug list. There have constructive discussion in this thread up to this point. Lets keep it that way. If you want to rabble rouse, go back to the zulu thread please.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.20 17:26:00 - [898] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Speaking of missiles in more broader terms, I don't really get why the shorter range missiles are supposed to be used against bigger classes of ships. Now, I'm fine with trying to diversify the weapons, but if you look at short range turrets, they not only are good against the same class of ships, but are usually better than their long range counterpart at dealing with smaller classes due to the improved tracking... Because if short range missiles hit every time against smaller ships their DPS would have to be appalling for them to be even remotely balanced. This gives you the choice of rockets being good against interceptors (but lacking damage against bigger ships like AF's) or rockets having enough damage against the bigger ship classes like AF (but lacking the Ev/Er/DRF to hit interceptors well). Given the choice I'd rather be able to do turret level damage and have to tackle my target than do carp damage against all targets. I'm really not sure how else to explain this, I feel like a stuck record saying it over and over. Perhaps someone else can find better words? Or correct me if I'm wrong about this? (Totally agree with you about T2 ammo though, amongst other problems the stacked drawbacks in speed/sig is plain crazy) Originally by: Braitai Originally by: yani dumyat Because a rocket pilot can not manipulate transversal to their advantage the high explosion velocity and low damage option will always leave the rocket pilot at a disadvantage. This is not always true. A rocket user can't manipulate transversal to increase DPS, but you can manipulate transversal to decrease incoming DPS. I've already stated in this thread that the rocket Malediction is a very viable dogfighting interceptor. It beats most Claws by making them fight in falloff, and it beats Crusaders by getting under their guns and tanking the rest of their damage. OK fair enough there are situations where you can make a rocket ship work, I can think of fights I've won while flying a hawk, doesn't make rockets or the hawk good though. I'm not entirely sure of the point you're trying to make, perhaps you could clarify in terms of how you would like to see rockets changed? Originally by: Braitai No competent Malediction pilot would allow a Claw to orbit them at 500m, unless the Claw was using Barrage and they wanted to try and take advantage of it's tracking penalty to get under the it's guns. Yeah it wasn't the most realistic example, I used it because I used a claw to test rockets. This is a screenshot of my spreadsheet with the changes I proposed. Full spreadsheet can be downloaded from here: http://www.4shared.com/file/OM-ctG6_/rockets_again.html _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Jason1138	Posted - 2010.07.20 17:31:00 - [899] "What are you trying to incite here, honestly?" i'm not sure what you're asking really. One CCP employee says this issue is being worked on. 6 more say it is not if you don't think that's worth a question, ie "who is in the loop here and who is out of it", then i don't know what to tell you are we getting a rocket fix or not? CCP says yes, CCP says no. what are we suppposed to think
Ban Doga	Posted - 2010.07.20 17:46:00 - [900] Originally by: Kaltooth Originally by: Jason1138 we've got 1 dev here saying that they will be worked on this summer and about 6 devs on ccp zulu's last blog thread refusing to commit to EVER fixing them. including the CEO so who is in the loop and who is out of it? What are you trying to incite here, honestly? What is the bug. We all agree there are balance problems, but there is no bug. You press fire, it fires. The server tracks the object from your ship to the target without errors. The missile and target variables are inputted into a formula and a result is spit out. Again, no errors. What you are trying to call a bug is actually balance. They work. We can argue they don't work as well as other weapon systems, but that isn't a bug. This means, it is part of the feature list, not the bug list. If chronotis is correct on it being on the dev servers, that means they are burning a 2 week sprint to take a poke at it. It doesn't mean it will get done however. There is still a chance that they realize it is more complicated than at first glance and some aha (perhaps a shortcut on tracking missile objects freeing up cpu time) about the lag appeared while looking at missiles. They haven't refused to commit. They can only say it is in the feature list to complete. It is not in the bug list. There have constructive discussion in this thread up to this point. Lets keep it that way. If you want to rabble rouse, go back to the zulu thread please. Hmmm, the posting you quoted does not contain the word "bug". Maybe you assumed he said "bug" because he said "fixing"? It might not be a technical bug (as you said: rockets do work). But the overall outcome is that they do not perform as well as other comparable weapon systems (again, as you said). If you want to call this problem a bug or an imbalance is not really important. The point is that the actual outcome is undesirable and this problem needs to be fixed. The point where CCP is unable to predict a release date is another issue and has nothing to do with how they tend to call it internally.

Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems The Laughing Men	Posted - 2010.07.20 18:29:00 - [901] Edited by: Krennel Darius on 20/07/2010 18:31:32 Originally by: CCP Chronotis Explorer is being too pedantic there for how we classify things from their engineering standpoint. The analogy would be that if design called for the accelerator pedal to be on the roof of the car instead the floor, the engineers would go away and do that. Now when a customer comes along as says this is silly, they respond with "this is how it was designed." There is indeed a fault in the design/product, however the implementation is 'as designed' and thus the design must change (correctly, the precise balancing of attributes which game design does) to fix it. That has not been the cause of the delays however. It was more down to higher priority design tasks sitting above it in queue as I stated in an earlier reply. Your accelerator pedal analogy, while being silly in the respect that I don't know any engineers that would willing design a car with a gas pedal on the roof without questioning it first. And, if such a car made it to the prototype level, then it would be completely rejected in testing and promptly changed. But in this case, the majority of the designers are also implementers, or have been at some point, which makes us wonder how it can go from one stage to another without being noticed. I can understand how such a thing can be missed on SiSi, people usually log on there to test out new features and small things like broken rockets would be missed and make it to the official expansion, but not all of the testing on SiSi are done by players. And, as the case with every other product known to man, if there is a flaw with it soon after it is put onto the market, the said flaw is swiftly taken care of. Yes, we know there is a flaw in the product, and yes we know that rockets have been in some sort of queue for fixing for some time. The problem is, rockets have stayed static in the said queue, with other things constantly added in front of it. This wouldn't be too much of a problem for me, except the majority of the things added in the queue have not been fixes to in game features. Instead, they have been additions to in-game features, which also require fixes of their own and are also not getting fixed, and from CCP Zulu's blog and the CSM meeting, it looks like it will be quite a while before anything that needs to be fixed on this queue will get fixed. Thanks for taking your time to chat with us in this thread Chronitis. While many people may be fairly hostile toward CCP's stance on running EVE at the moment, it is still refreshing to have a dev in here for us to throw our ideas at, and not just a brick wall of a thread to bang our heads on. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris

CCP Atropos	Posted - 2010.07.20 18:55:00 - [902] Originally by: CCP Chronotis most of us are away on vacation currently... Aren't you away on vacation currently? Software Engineer Core Engineering

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.20 20:19:00 - [903] Well there are three possibilities as I see it. 1. "Just shove the changes through, can't be bothered to check them" 2. "Hmm, these have a 25m explosion radius, the rest can't be a problem can it?" 3. "I got ganked by a Hawk as a newbie. PAYBACK TIME, MWAHAHAHAHAHA" _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.20 21:50:00 - [904] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 20/07/2010 21:55:35 Originally by: Krennel Darius Thanks for taking your time to chat with us in this thread Chronitis. While many people may be fairly hostile toward CCP's stance on running EVE at the moment, it is still refreshing to have a dev in here for us to throw our ideas at, and not just a brick wall of a thread to bang our heads on. Thats what i particularily dislike about "chat with dev" in any topic. Most of DEV responses arent even ON topic and most of the people who respond to said responses also miss the point. In this thread particularly i dont rly give a damn who screwed up rockets in 1st place or why. The important part is how WE can find a way to fix the issue (and we found a few ways already) or how DEVs see the issue (which partially can help us "guide" our thoughts). For example Chronotis stating that they wanted "high damage short range missiles effective against larger targets" pretty much changed the course of our thinking here. And out of all DEV responses in this thread that was IMO the most important sentence. I really would prefer shorter and faster version. What do we have - ccp does their version. Players then can compare it, raise issues (if idea is totally out of the window) or propose tweaks. Tweaks get added (or no), another short discussion. 3-4 cycles, few sisi tests, done. Geez i just did whole design-fix-do QA tests line! And if it still doesnt work properly (tested by full TQ player base) then issue can be easily fixed next patch while undertaking same steps. Time taken? Probably less than moving your (CCP's) whole "design team" to fix the issue. Players happy? All the users of said feature. I really do not understand why its so friggin hard to tweak (as in slightly adjust) few numbers from patch to patch. I always thought that developement of e-media means you can do the changes on spot. But atm it seems that upgrading the tank or plane or even gun takes less time INCLUDING design stages and implementation. Programming is harder than rocket science i guess...
Mohenna Caldari Knights of the Dark	Posted - 2010.07.20 22:13:00 - [905] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Mohenna ...So, the rockets are in their current state (since ages ago) because, although they're a known defect, they are a defect "by design" and therefore require a big change... ...There is indeed a fault in the design/product, however the implementation is 'as designed' and thus the design must change (correctly, the precise balancing of attributes which game design does) to fix it. That has not been the cause of the delays however. It was more down to higher priority design tasks sitting above it in queue as I stated in an earlier reply. Thank you v.m. for the answer! Great to have a timeframe and the promise of a blog starts to put this thread to rest, something that I wish occurred long ago :) This though raises more in depth questions: what was the design sense of the better than light drone explo radius and worse than BS explo speed? []Can such an information (the decision motivation) be tracked down at all in design notes? []Is tracking down the sense of this kind of choices feasible in the current environment? Please don't take the above questions as criticism. Thanks again for the answer: \o/ <3 I got a dev answer PS you're discussing CCP Explorer's action, IB4 ban

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2010.07.20 22:14:00 - [906] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Explorer is being too pedantic ... Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.20 22:28:00 - [907] Edited by: Gecko O''Bac on 20/07/2010 22:29:39 Originally by: yani dumyat Because if short range missiles hit every time against smaller ships their DPS would have to be appalling for them to be even remotely balanced. This gives you the choice of rockets being good against interceptors (but lacking damage against bigger ships like AF's) or rockets having enough damage against the bigger ship classes like AF (but lacking the Ev/Er/DRF to hit interceptors well). Given the choice I'd rather be able to do turret level damage and have to tackle my target than do carp damage against all targets. I'm really not sure how else to explain this, I feel like a stuck record saying it over and over. Perhaps someone else can find better words? Or correct me if I'm wrong about this? Well imho this is a non-problem, especially since most of the involved ships are caldari anyway (with a couple of amarr, for which the same problem stands). This makes the problem not existant for this reason: short range weapons are just that, short range. lower classes of ships can usually outrun you quite easily (minmatar ships are the exception, but we're talking mostly about caldari/amarr ships), so either you have a mean to tackle them (scramble/web), which already has the drawback of an even more reduced range, or they just can gtfo (or rather, engage somebody else in the gang, outside your engagement range). In this way you are forcing ships to use webbers/short range scramble even if they, in theory, wouldn't need it for pure damage purposes (like, a HAM cerberus which could fire at 50 kms the hams but either it has to rely on outside tackle or get into scramble range and lose all the advantages, even though it wouldn't need to web the target if it wasn't for the added damage). Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: CCP Chronotis Explorer is being too pedantic ... Don't worry, the Engineer mindset just makes us difficult to understand for the common mortals :P (In fact I understood exactly what was meant by that post, as it's the standard terminology in use :P)
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.20 23:59:00 - [908] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 20/07/2010 23:59:36 yay page 31 Re-posting for emphasis. 3 launchers+: (Primary weapon) Hawk Vengeance Malediction Crow Kestrel Breacher* Inquisitor Flycatcher Heretic Worm Caldari Navy Hookbill* Condor"" Split weapons (half and half rockets/guns) Merlin Tristan Eris Extra launcher high slot (meh) Rifter Republic fleet Firetail Harpy Cormorant Thrasher Claw Stiletto Raptor Enyo Jaguar Wolf VINDICATOR DRAMIEL BECAUSE OF TANKY SHUTTLE FALCON Also severely handicapped by stupid slot layout. * Worst pirate frigate by a longshot. Could've just given it hybrids or good fitting for standards but no. * Changed to pure rockets from split weapon AFTER CCP ACKNOWLEDGED THEY WERE BROKEN. Good job on the pre-nerf there! "" Due partly to the stupid and obsolete tier system but still belongs there. RACE TALLY (thought I'd add this up as I'm bored) Caldari - 7 (Counting worm) in top section, 1 in middle section, 3 in bottom (total: 11) Gallente - 1 (Counting worm) in top section, 2 in middle section, 1 in bottom (total: 4) Amarr - 4 in top section, 0 in middle section, 0 in bottom section (total: 4) Minmatar - 1 in top section, 0 in middle section, 7 in bottom section (total: 8) _________________________________ Originally by:** Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.21 00:14:00 - [909] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac lower classes of ships can usually outrun you quite easily ...so either you have a mean to tackle them...or they just can gtfo. This I agree with and understand, what I don't get is why you want to be able to hit a ship for full damage if you can't hold it in place and it's just going to gtfo anyway? Braitai made a good post about how a malediction can be used to defeat ships by using their falloff and tracking against them. A hookhill can be similarly effective because of its speed, range and copious midslots. For this reason rockets that could hit interceptors well would need to be very low damage (for comparison an autocannon ship will lose about 50% of its DPS when fighting at the edge of scram range, AB interceptors can almost completely evade lasers by orbiting at 500m) Then you go on to talk about 50km cerbs and I find it hard to follow. There are only 4 rocket ships that can hit outside of scram range - flycatcher, crow, hookbill and hawk. Of those four the hookbill and crow are not slow ships and only the hookbill can fit enough range rigs to make a disruptor/kite setup worthwhile (even then it's debatable and you'd be better with a light missile setup). If I'm being dumb then I apologize but I find your reasoning hard to follow, maybe if you posted numbers it would be a bit less vague. Originally by: Gecko O'Bac In this way you are forcing ships to use webbers/short range scramble even if they, in theory, wouldn't need it for pure damage purposes On the contrary I suggested a setup that would hit an AF for 100% damage unless he fitted an afterburner. If he's going to fit a tanking mod then surely it's only fair that you should have to fit a web? An untackled interceptor would get between 15% and 50% damage reduction depending on fit and orbit range. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.21 00:25:00 - [910] Originally by: yani dumyat If I'm being dumb then I apologize but I find your reasoning hard to follow, maybe if you posted numbers it would be a bit less vague. Nope it's just that you're talking about rockets exclusively, while I'm talking about short range missiles in general. So while having to tackle/web for a frigate is basically mandatory anyway with short range weapons, cruisers and BSs don't need that. Vagabond, for example, normally fits just long point and no webs, and still uses the short range weapons. On the cerberus you can't do that even though your hams could hit up to 50 and some kms. And that's because even against same size targets the webber is almost mandatory (though the painter can help, but with a much lower efficiency), never mind using hams against smaller targets. So what is basically a mean to prevent the target from escaping becomes, for short range missiles ships only (and here lies what I, at least, perceive as something not balanced), a necessary mean for dealing damage.

Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.21 00:57:00 - [911] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Nope it's just that you're talking about rockets exclusively, while I'm talking about short range missiles in general. So while having to tackle/web for a frigate is basically mandatory anyway with short range weapons, cruisers and BSs don't need that. Mostly because cruiser/BS short ranged weapons have tad better stats than frig ones AND their designed targets (cruisers for HAM, BS for torp) usually dont run on AB and are naturally quite slow (MWD tanking missiles in kinda weird as you dont get such huge damage reductions as with AB). Quote: Vagabond, for example, normally fits just long point and no webs, and still uses the short range weapons. On the cerberus you can't do that even though your hams could hit up to 50 and some kms. Ofc you can but cerb is generally bad solo boat. It is quite slow and has fitting issues with HAMs (+MWD, +LSEs). But if you really want you can always slap on longer point like RF or TS and solo. But generally there are better ships for this role. That said HAMs hit non-webbed cruisers quite well (except for vaga and prolly cynabal but thats quite obvious). I do have most of my cerb kills in HML setup tho, but when it comes to sacrilege i always used long point and never had issues killing stuff. Quote: And that's because even against same size targets the webber is almost mandatory (though the painter can help, but with a much lower efficiency), never mind using hams against smaller targets. As above. Against same size targets you dont rly need web when using HAMs. They have goon enough stats to kill non-webbed cruisers. Ofc in 90% cases you will want to put web on them just to stop them from running away. Against smaller targets its obvious web is almost always needed - thats how missiles work... Quote: So what is basically a mean to prevent the target from escaping becomes, for short range missiles ships only (and here lies what I, at least, perceive as something not balanced), a necessary mean for dealing damage. Again: only for rockets. Was using disruptor only on torp raven - never had issues (changed to scrambler only because couldnt cope with tards burning away with MWD... raven is kinda slow even on overheat). HAMs - same story as above. Tho 2/3 of ingame HAM boats (drake, sacri, 3rd one is cerb) can fit web+disruptor/scrammer no problem. Cerb unfortunately has fitting issues. Aaaand when it comes to rockets? World is turned upside down. You need web to damage anything (even non-ABing non-MWDing frig), you need scram+web to actually damage MWDing frig and 2x web+ point to kill ABing frig. So totally different story. FAKE EDIT: actually i flown HAM cerb. I forgot i had HAM skills before i got HML. But that was mostly gang dps/support and with 90% webs.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.07.21 07:20:00 - [912] Originally by: yani dumyat I'm not entirely sure of the point you're trying to make, perhaps you could clarify in terms of how you would like to see rockets changed? I guess my point is if CCP did go in the direction of eliminating the need for a web to apply 100% DPS, they'd still be useful for mitigating incoming DPS through range/transversal control. In fact an AB would serve the same purpose, exchanging higher fitting requirements for a greater degree of control. TBH though I think the changes you've been proposing sound pretty reasonable, most of the issues I have extend towards frigates in general. In order to tackle cruisers and above, you either need to stay in disruptor ranges, or get close. At rocket ranges all of a sudden you have to counter neuts, webs, and scramblers, unless you're using a crow/hawk/CNH or javelins. There simply aren't that many frigates which can hack combat within scram ranges vs larger opponents. If a web remained a requirement for a rocket boat, that's one less midslot you have to play around with if you want to fit to counter different situations. Have you worked out how effective rockets would be vs drones with your changes? I use AC's on my fleet 'diction because it has a long point/scram combo. Webbed drones actually die pretty quickly to rockets but that only works in a tight orbit, in a high orbit they're useless. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.07.21 07:39:00 - [913] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac So what is basically a mean to prevent the target from escaping becomes, for short range missiles ships only (and here lies what I, at least, perceive as something not balanced), a necessary mean for dealing damage. Personally, I have no problem with the extent of this state of affairs for HAMs and torps.
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2010.07.21 08:36:00 - [914] Originally by: yani dumyat This I agree with and understand, what I don't get is why you want to be able to hit a ship for full damage if you can't hold it in place and it's just going to gtfo anyway? You and Braitai have good points - I think once I killed a rifter with a rocket kestrel using his tactic - the problem is that a frig must be webbed twice. One web ought to be enough to do full damage to an orbiting, abing, non overloading dramiel imo. Overloading, or the dramiel going straight, would decrease the damage, but that's it... All the numbers should be deduced by the above principle.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.21 10:26:00 - [915] Well, I'm not that sure about torps since a torp raven doesn't appeal me at all, but hams are not all that good... I'm fine with having to use webbers and the like on smaller targets, afterall we don't get tracking issues so normally a minimum of damage is applied to the target (though it's quite easier to reduce missile damage than turret damage, generally speaking, since you just need to be small and fast, no need to maneuver in any particular way). But I'm not really that sure about hams on same targets... Like you said, they already have fitting problems on their own, which makes it harder to fit tank, they have very limited range (except on the cerberus, ofc) and the added damage compared to HM isn't that much, when it gets reduced by some % no matter what. Yes, you don't get a drastic reduction of damage like rockets, I know, but given the worse stats, the higher DRF (which, again, means that you lose target diversity... Anything too small or too fast (and those aren't big numbers either) will reduce the damage done FASTER than what you lose with hmls) couple with the above (fitting problems and limited range, which would be fine on its own though, of course...) make the HAM setups not really worth flying: the heavy missiles are (much) more reliable, flexible and with comparable dps (since often the powergrid issues mean you have to sacrifice a BCU to a fitting module). I used to fly a ham drake and while I did some satisfying kills with it, I realized how poor it performs in real combat situations and why the run of the mill HML drake is superior. Torp raven imho suffers from the same problems (though I guess they both can fit the needs of a gatecamper), but then again the raven is imho an overall subpar ship for pvp
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.21 10:50:00 - [916] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac But I'm not really that sure about hams on same targets... Like you said, they already have fitting problems on their own, which makes it harder to fit tank, Only on cerb (and mostly on NH). Tengu, Drake, Sacri, Legion (lol) fits them ok. Quote: they have very limited range (except on the cerberus, ofc) and the added damage compared to HM isn't that much, when it gets reduced by some % no matter what. Its plain 25% damage boost. 29% damage reduction vs 1544m/s, 870sig ishtar (only MWD, no LSE, going in straight line). Dual LSE ishtar going in straight line gets 7% damage reduction. So you are already better than heavy missiles. Vs same ishtar without speed mod you get 100% damage. Yeah HAM stats suck, they deal full damage MWDing or non-prop cruisers. Almost like rockets. Only non-mwd vaga gets 40% damage reduction while moving in straight line. try orbitting or turn on MWD and it hurts. Fact is: HAMS work PERFECTLY against their intended targets. Even better than torps because they can deal full damage in almost all cases (where torps deal reduced damage vs tier1 battleships). Quote: Yes, you don't get a drastic reduction of damage like rockets, I know, but given the worse stats, the higher DRF (which, again, means that you lose target diversity... Anything too small or too fast (and those aren't big numbers either) will reduce the damage done FASTER than what you lose with hmls) No they dont because their intended targets cant run 5km/s. Most hacs (cruisers) end up around 2km/s speed which is still within hard-hitting range of hams without huge damage reduction. Quote: I used to fly a ham drake and while I did some satisfying kills with it, I realized how poor it performs in real combat situations What is a "real combat situation"? Or are you talking from high horse here (aka "i fly in blobs! hams dont work in blobs")? Because whenever i fought in "real combat situations" (ergo: not on sisi) i NEVER had issues with HAMs. Selecting proper ship/weapon for a job is 1st thing you should consider before even undocking. Quote: and why the run of the mill HML drake is superior. Yeh. Tell it to 3-5 man gangs i flown for quite a while. Im sure HML's 450-500 dps would be appreciated more than 600+ from HAM drake. TBH id prefer some facts/numbers rather than "real combat situation" lulz generalization. Also id kinda prefer to get back on topic - rockets.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.21 11:25:00 - [917] Originally by: Braitai Have you worked out how effective rockets would be vs drones with your changes? I use AC's on my fleet 'diction because it has a long point/scram combo. Webbed drones actually die pretty quickly to rockets but that only works in a tight orbit, in a high orbit they're useless. If someone can tell me the in game speed, sig and orbit distance of drones then I'd be happy to do the maths (warrior II's would probably be best as they seem to be the most common). Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Nope it's just that you're talking about rockets exclusively, while I'm talking about short range missiles in general....Vagabond, for example A normal vaga fit (2 gyros) with phased plasma gets 516 DPS in EFT, in game with barrage from 20km it's more like 300 dps, at forty km you'd be lucky to scratch their paint. Needing to get close up with a web to apply full damage is not a purely missile thing. HAMs are fine. Anyway, I'm sure this thread had something to do with rockets
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.21 13:07:00 - [918] I don't want this to turn into some kind of pointless debate over a minor issue. I believe that the HAMs are almost good. Perhaps it's more a problems of ships than missiles, but the fact is that while there is no lack of short range turret fits (well, pulse and autocannons at least), HAM fits are very hard to come by besides, perhaps, pirate gatecamps. The sacrilege, which is a HAM specialized ship hasn't seen much use at all lately (and since my target pool isn't all that limited I guess it makes up for a decent statistical base of the overall population, with the exception of the above mentioned pirates). Originally by: Deva Blackfire Only on cerb (and mostly on NH). Tengu, Drake, Sacri, Legion (lol) fits them ok. This is a little misleading imho... Fitting problems doesn't mean an outright "they don't fit". It means that you have to sacrifice much of the advantages of a long range fit BESIDE the long range. Not sure about tengu ham (and the HML tengu is awesome as it is), legion is loltastic. Sacrilege is a specialized ham ship, ofc there are not problems there (well, I hope so at least). Drake on the other hand has to sacrifice quite some tank and normally even some damage modding to fit a balanced HAM setup. If you want to make it agile enough to run after some ships then you may have to waste even more tank/dmg mods. But then, I'm all for sacrificing tank for gank if the end result is satisfying. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Its plain 25% damage boost. 29% damage reduction vs 1544m/s, 870sig ishtar (only MWD, no LSE, going in straight line). Dual LSE ishtar going in straight line gets 7% damage reduction. So you are already better than heavy missiles. Vs same ishtar without speed mod you get 100% damage. Yeah HAM stats suck, they deal full damage MWDing or non-prop cruisers. Almost like rockets. Only non-mwd vaga gets 40% damage reduction while moving in straight line. try orbitting or turn on MWD and it hurts. Fact is: HAMS work PERFECTLY against their intended targets. Even better than torps because they can deal full damage in almost all cases (where torps deal reduced damage vs tier1 battleships). Now, I'm using eft to calculate this because I don't want to dig up the dmg formula to make the exact calcs. So it may be wrong but... You say non mwd vaga gets 40% dmg reduction... EFT shows that a MWDed, double lse'd vaga flying in straight line gets about 50% damage reduction. Bear in mind also that the vaga is one of the ships which you are most likely to encounter anyway. A long range fit made for tank more than damage (with TP I have to add) outdamages the ham fit from the get-go if the scrambler/webbers are off. With the painter off, the damage is perhaps 20 dps lower than the ham fit while outside web range. On a mwding sniper zealot the results are exactly the same, with the difference that the long range fit with painter on does top damage, while the ham fit isn't anywhere close to doing that. That's because of the DRF difference, which makes the heavy missiles cap in damage quite faster. On a close range AB zealot, the things go even worse. The dmg differential between HML and HAM is wider (though they both suffer from a huge damage loss, if outside web range, the zealot reduces HAM damage by almost 75%, while HML fit, even with painter off is just a little under 50% reduction AND over the now reduced ham dps). I gave you three VERY common pvp fits, found both in small and large roaming gangs as well as fully fledged fleet ops. So... Either the EFT formula is completely off (which, I grant you, may be possible) or perhaps I'm not exactly pulling things out from thin air. Originally by: Deva Blackfire No they dont because their intended targets cant run 5km/s. Most hacs (cruisers) end up around 2km/s speed which is still within hard-hitting range of hams without huge damage reduction. I think I answered this above. (Continues)
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.21 13:08:00 - [919] Reserved
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.21 13:54:00 - [920] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Drake on the other hand has to sacrifice quite some tank and normally even some damage modding to fit a balanced HAM setup. If you want to make it agile enough to run after some ships then you may have to waste even more tank/dmg mods. WHAT? Learn how to fit proper HAM drake... it easily fits 7x HAM + 3x BCU (needs 3% PG implant iirc). If you dont want that implant just swap 1x HAM for HML. Done. Tank is as sturdy as it can get: LSE + 2x invul + dc + 3x extender rig. Thats 80k to 91k (overheated) EHP while sporting almost 680dps non-overheated. There IS a reason drake is considered best BC out there... at least for those who know how to fit and fly it. Quote: Now, I'm using eft to calculate this because I don't want to dig up the dmg formula to make the exact calcs. So it may be wrong but... You say non mwd vaga gets 40% dmg reduction... EFT shows that a MWDed, double lse'd vaga flying in straight line gets about 50% damage reduction. Bear in mind also that the vaga is one of the ships which you are most likely to encounter anyway. A long range fit made for tank more than damage (with TP I have to add) outdamages the ham fit from the get-go if the scrambler/webbers are off. With the painter off, the damage is perhaps 20 dps lower than the ham fit while outside web range. Yes yes you have TP and stuff. And you wont kill said Vaga anyways without proper tackle as he will warp away anyways. So it dfoesnt mean if you use HAM or HML as damage reduction will be 100% as soon as he warps. Thats the difference between "eft combat" and "tq combat". Also Vaga is the only exception i shown for comparison. Why did you ignore the rest of slower cruisers the game has to offer? Quote: On a mwding sniper zealot the results are exactly the same, with the difference that the long range fit with painter on does top damage, while the ham fit isn't anywhere close to doing that. That's because of the DRF difference, which makes the heavy missiles cap in damage quite faster. Its not "exactly the same" Its not even close to being "the same". MWD+LSE (typical long range zealot fit) gets only 30% damage reduction while flying in straight line. Thats without counting in any rigs. And again - your HML drake has no ability to hold it from running away = you need another ship with web. If oyu use web you might aswell use it on said drake and then just use HAMs. Quote: On a close range AB zealot, the things go even worse. The dmg differential between HML and HAM is wider (though they both suffer from a huge damage loss, if outside web range, the zealot reduces HAM damage by almost 75%, while HML fit, even with painter off is just a little under 50% reduction AND over the now reduced ham dps). Close range zealot fit will get webbed. That means single web will put damage reduction down to 37% if he is going in straight line. If hes doing curved runs his reduction drops even further. For HML+TP (no web) damage reduction is 49% in straight line. 37% reduction is less than 49% (plus HAMs have 25% base DPS more). Its worth remembering that single web is almost as effective as 2x TP. Quote: I gave you three VERY common pvp fits, found both in small and large roaming gangs as well as fully fledged fleet ops. So... Either the EFT formula is completely off (which, I grant you, may be possible) or perhaps I'm not exactly pulling things out from thin air. Nope. You are just using wrong ships for the wrong job. You try to engage sniper zealots with HAM drake (lol) or vaga with HML drake without having additional tackle. If i were to take HAM drake to sniper fest i too would whine its not good. But for their own job HAMs (that is: fighting within web range or around 15-20km tops) they are superior to HML in any way. And dont forget surprise buttsex gangmod drake with 17km web and 14km scram.

Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.21 14:01:00 - [921] Quote: Rockets have been debated for a long time and since devs stated that they are taking a broader look at missiles (though it may just be that, a look), I don't think we're wasting time with this. And also while the terminology may be imperfect, I'm not trying to troll nor I'm spouting nonsense. My claims have some substance behind them. I don't believe they are universally accepted, not the perfect look on the situation, but you shouldn't think I'm completely clueless either. This sentence fortunately saved you from lots of smack from my side (i deleted it just now). And im speaking broadly from pretty much all point of views: both large and small (solo) bombat both in empire (wardecs)/lowsec and nullsec. Only issues i've ever had with HAMs is taking wrong ship with wrong gang. Bringing HAM boat to 50 man gang (happened, i dont deny it) was stupid and pointless. For smaller combat HAMs actually show how short range missiles should have been balanced. IMO even torps could learn a thing or 2 from them (their stupidly large explo radius which doesnt catch tier1 BS easily). When it comes to short range missiles (rockets aside) is prefer to see torps changed a little not HAMs. And that is lowering explo velocity and explo radius just a little (say to 400-420 range). But its no biggy. Torps actually work, HAMs work, rockets dont.
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc	Posted - 2010.07.21 14:46:00 - [922] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: CCP Chronotis Explorer is being too pedantic ... Don't be too worked up about that, your explanation in that specific question made a lot of heads turn since most customers don't speak "engineer". .
Faffywaffy The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.07.21 17:43:00 - [923] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Ships like HAM drake or HAM sacrilege perform their roles well as do the torp ravens. However rocket crows or vengeance lack the punch these lot serve and that is most likely what we will address. CCP Chronotis, I beg you not to "fix" rockets, as they need no fixing and any boost will make them overpowered. Please examine my long history of using rocket Crows and Maledictions to defeat all other interceptors. With the exception of a rail Taranis, there is pretty much no standard ceptor fit that can defeat a properly fit and flown rocket Malediction. The main reason to prefer a (rocket) Crow over a Malediction is that it can apply more dps, thus requiring less distance from "the blob" when engaging an enemy interceptor. I will argue similarly that a properly fit and flown rocket Vengeance will hold its ground against many of the more popular assault frigates. The rocket-bonused interdictors are terrible for reasons unrelated to rockets. The "rockets suck" mantra has been repeated over and over on the forums to such an extent that you can now see posts from people saying "I was going to fly a rocket X, but then I heard they are terrible, so I guess I shouldn't. CCP, please fix rockets!". Of course with the Angel buff, the Dramiel is king and flying anything other than an anti-Dramiel Dramiel is sub-optimal.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.21 18:27:00 - [924] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 18:34:52 Yeh heretic is also fine ship, because i have almost 500 kills with it. Not. Most (out of 4 pages i checked at least 90-95%) of ceptors you soloed were **fits. Sure the piloting counts but when you engage lol 2x coproc or medium pulse crusaders it rly doesnt matter if you orbit them at 500 or not at all - they are so bad they will die even in straight out fight. Thats point number 1. Point number 2: even more of those kills are gang kills. So what you are saying is "rockets are fine as long as my enemy is ** fit and has no clue". Pretty much. Taranis (one of most used ceptors out there), gatling sader (not some funny DLP or DLB setup) - two of the best ceptors out there that have no problem at all with rocket ceptors. AB frigs (cant find any of those soloed by you) - also kinda immune to whatever you dish out (unless you tackle em and wait for gang - but thats not killing them but tackling). Veng/hawk fine? I dont see many kills using them either (nor many losses). To sum up: sure you have lots of kills with malediction. But lots of kills in a ship doesnt always mean its good, sorry to break your bubble. It only means you just fly a lot with it and get on lots of mails. What is easily doable in any small/med ship if s1 can be bothered to do it. And all the proofs in heavens and earth point that rockets are terribad indeed. EDIT: plus as i remember we had this discussion once already. And points stated then arent different today. EDIT2: also rockets are fine because i have rocket launcher on my dramiel and i do get kills! YAY !
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.07.21 18:41:00 - [925] What a fascinating kill record. In 2010, Faffywaffy has solo-killed 4 (four) interceptors using a rocket Crow or Malediction. Of these, one was an untanked SML Crow, another was an untanked SML Malediction, the third was an untanked Stiletto and the fourth was another rocket Crow. Three of these victims also used missiles, one was another rocket-user, none had an afterburner and two of them were tackle-ceptors, designed for tackling rather than DPS. These are not accomplishments of note and tell us nothing about rocket balance.
Faffywaffy The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.07.21 19:19:00 - [926] Originally by: Gypsio III What a fascinating kill record. In 2010, Faffywaffy has solo-killed 4 (four) interceptors using a rocket Crow or Malediction. What is your point? Yes, I haven't flown interceptors very much recently. Have there been significant changes since 2009 (when I did fly them almost exclusively) that made rockets much worse? Also, losing to Garmon in his AB/Scram/Web/Blaster Incursus doesn't count. It was a very close fight and he won because I didn't know it was him at the time and didn't expect it to be fit like that.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.21 19:20:00 - [927] Edited by: Gecko O''Bac on 21/07/2010 19:25:47 Originally by: Deva Blackfire WHAT? Learn how to fit proper HAM drake... it easily fits 7x HAM + 3x BCU (needs 3% PG implant iirc). If you dont want that implant just swap 1x HAM for HML. Done. Tank is as sturdy as it can get: LSE + 2x invul + dc + 3x extender rig. Thats 80k to 91k (overheated) EHP while sporting almost 680dps non-overheated. There IS a reason drake is considered best BC out there... at least for those who know how to fit and fly it. You should leave drones out of the calculations if just for the fact that they are meaningless for comparing two fits of the same ship. Also, this fit DOES have less tank than the common HML one. You have to sacrifice one LSE for the webber. That brings you down to 83k ehp, while the hml hits 104k, overloadable to 119k. The third bcu is opinable because you need a grid implant if you want to fit it. That's not always doable, so I compared two similar 2 BCU fits (long and short). That's the whole difference between your "I know how to fit drakes" and my "you don't" drake. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Yes yes you have TP and stuff. And you wont kill said Vaga anyways without proper tackle as he will warp away anyways. So it dfoesnt mean if you use HAM or HML as damage reduction will be 100% as soon as he warps. Thats the difference between "eft combat" and "tq combat". Also Vaga is the only exception i shown for comparison. Why did you ignore the rest of slower cruisers the game has to offer? You are also talking exclusively about solo fighting it seems because in my original post (which should be... 3 posts ago? something like that), I stated that my problem is with the need for the tackle to do damage, not for the tackle to keep the guy there. So the point about the vagabond escaping is moot. Because if we want to be pedantic, with an HML fit at least you will hit the vagabond once or twice before he GTFO, while you won't even get in range to fire HAMs at all. Also... Originally by: Deva Blackfire Its not "exactly the same" Its not even close to being "the same". MWD+LSE (typical long range zealot fit) gets only 30% damage reduction while flying in straight line. Thats without counting in any rigs. And again - your HML drake has no ability to hold it from running away = you need another ship with web. If oyu use web you might aswell use it on said drake and then just use HAMs. What I said above. I wasn't clear... The dmg reduction is different, but the result is still that the HML fit with TPs is doing more damage than the ham fit. And without TP the difference in damage is laughable, but I'm much more likely to hit said zealot in a combat situation. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Close range zealot fit will get webbed. That means single web will put damage reduction down to 37% if he is going in straight line. If hes doing curved runs his reduction drops even further. For HML+TP (no web) damage reduction is 49% in straight line. 37% reduction is less than 49% (plus HAMs have 25% base DPS more). Its worth remembering that single web is almost as effective as 2x TP. Yes, in a 1 on 1 situation that's quite likely. It's also very unlikely for such a situation to ever happen. On the other hand, target painting is quite easier, and also, much more easily stackable. The problem is that you have to apply web in the first place, and that limits your already limited range again. HML has no such problems dmg wise (yes it gets reduced but it still does MORE damage than the ham drake without webs). Originally by: Deva Blackfire Nope. You are just using wrong ships for the wrong job. I guess you never happened to run around in a roaming gang fighting whatever comes your way. Or you were never engaged by somebody while you weren't looking forward that particular fight. I guess you have perfect intel and you know at any time what people are flying in that moment in every place. Perhaps I wouldn't bring a drake gang to a sniper fest if I knew that beforehand. But there lies the problem.
Faffywaffy The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.07.21 19:25:00 - [928] Originally by: Deva Blackfire To sum up: sure you have lots of kills with malediction. But lots of kills in a ship doesnt always mean its good, sorry to break your bubble. It only means you just fly a lot with it and get on lots of mails. It does mean it when you can reliably defeat the overwhelming majority of other commonly fit interceptors. Are you suggesting that rockets should be buffed to the point where rocket crows/maledictios can beat all other interceptor fits? Originally by: Deva Blackfire plus as i remember we had this discussion once already. And points stated then arent different today. Yes, but now devs are watching and actually thinking about making changes.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.21 19:38:00 - [929] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 19:45:23 Quote: You should leave drones out of the calculations if just for the fact that they are meaningless for comparing two fits of the same ship. Also, this fit DOES have less tank than the common HML one. You have to sacrifice one LSE for the webber. That brings you down to 83k ehp, while the hml hits 104k, overloadable to 119k. The third bcu is opinable because you need a grid implant if you want to fit it. That's not always doable, so I compared two similar 2 BCU fits (long and short). That's the whole difference between your "I know how to fit drakes" and my "you don't" drake. As i said. If you dont want BCU you swap 1x HAM to HML. You NEVER remove 3rd BCU from HAM drake. And yes drones are important. They add quite nice DPS to short range ship and are... hmm... useless at extreme ranges of HML ships? Quote: You are also talking exclusively about solo fighting it seems because in my original post (which should be... 3 posts ago? something like that), I stated that my problem is with the need for the tackle to do damage, not for the tackle to keep the guy there. So the point about the vagabond escaping is moot. Because if we want to be pedantic, with an HML fit at least you will hit the vagabond once or twice before he GTFO, while you won't even get in range to fire HAMs at all. Also... Need to tackle to do damage. And next you compare non-TP ship with TP one (even tho 1st one has a web which is used instead of TP). So either we compare missiles alone with no support at all or we use proper "support" the ship actually has to offer. Quote: Yes, in a 1 on 1 situation that's quite likely. It's also very unlikely for such a situation to ever happen. On the other hand, target painting is quite easier, and also, much more easily stackable. Uh actually 3x web will be as effective as infinite number of painters against smaller ships due to stacking penalty. Against cruisers on AB 2 webs will be better than 2 painters but at some points painters should take over (due to cruiser speed dropping under explo velocity but sig radius still being below explo radius). Still its such small difference it is really neiglible. And even if you go against clear zealot (125 sig vs 150ish HAM explo radius) the increased damage from HAMs will equal HMLs. Quote: I guess you never happened to run around in a roaming gang fighting whatever comes your way. I did. But iirc -a- is kinda higher in the food chain than generic_carebear_alliance and brings proper ships for roams instead of "put whatever you find, plexing drakes are OK too". Quote: I guess you have perfect intel and you know at any time what people are flying in that moment in every place. Yes i do. Otherwise i dont engage unless im sure my "wrong fit" can cope with it. If you end up in equal fight - you screwed up. If you end up using inferior ships against enemy - you screwed up REALLY BAD and the fight should have never happened. Quote: Perhaps I wouldn't bring a drake gang to a sniper fest if I knew that beforehand. I think you have one pair of eyes (or maybe you dont, dunno) and can see what ship types are in gang and judge from it what range will you engage at. If you see people bringing sniper zealots, muninns and cerbs and you bring HAM drake it means you are either clueless or kinda special... And yeh i have both HAM drake and HML drake (+gangmod fit) ready for both gang styles - short or long range.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.21 19:42:00 - [930] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 19:45:44 Originally by: Faffywaffy Also, losing to Garmon in his AB/Scram/Web/Blaster Incursus doesn't count. It was a very close fight and he won because I didn't know it was him at the time and didn't expect it to be fit like that. Damn - so you mean you can only rush against clueless newbs with **fits after all. So still nothing that says rockets are fine. It only proves that rockets are fine as long as you fire at tards with crap fits. Originally by:** Faffywaffy Originally by: Deva Blackfire To sum up: sure you have lots of kills with malediction. But lots of kills in a ship doesnt always mean its good, sorry to break your bubble. It only means you just fly a lot with it and get on lots of mails. It does mean it when you can reliably defeat the overwhelming majority of other commonly fit interceptors. Are you suggesting that rockets should be buffed to the point where rocket crows/maledictios can beat all other interceptor fits? Im yet to see those kills you speak of. In previous discussion i did what Gypsio did here - linked some of your "awesome solo kills" against crapfits. And atm it only shows you can reliably ***** on mails / tackle stuff till friends arrive / kill said crapfits. Also taranis can possibly kill most/all other fits (excluding specific counter-fits, as they are what name implies - counters). So can sader with proper piloting skills/fit. So can dramiel (if hes smart) and possibly Daredevil. Why malediction shouldnt? Because you said so?

Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.21 23:15:00 - [931] Originally by: Deva Blackfire As i said. If you dont want BCU you swap 1x HAM to HML. You NEVER remove 3rd BCU from HAM drake. And yes drones are important. They add quite nice DPS to short range ship and are... hmm... useless at extreme ranges of HML ships? About the HML yeah you're probably right, though having lag issues using different groups of weapons is not that good for me, but that's me, ofc. About drones... Well if you're sitting at 70 km range in a hml drake you're failing because it'll be quite easy for your target to get outside your range. With good (not even max skills) drones can reach up to 57 kms, so sending them to one target is not that hard in a HML fit, and after that you can leave them to aggro by themselves if you can't manage them because of range. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Need to tackle to do damage. And next you compare non-TP ship with TP one (even tho 1st one has a web which is used instead of TP). So either we compare missiles alone with no support at all or we use proper "support" the ship actually has to offer. Well I compared even without the TP on. In the three cases I shown, even with TP off the HML damage is VERY close (less than 50 dps difference) to HAM damage without webs, either in excess or in defect (while still having a lot more range). Also TP is much easier to apply than a web given its range, don't you agree? Originally by: Deva Blackfire Uh actually 3x web will be as effective as infinite number of painters against smaller ships due to stacking penalty. Against cruisers on AB 2 webs will be better than 2 painters but at some points painters should take over (due to cruiser speed dropping under explo velocity but sig radius still being below explo radius). Still its such small difference it is really neiglible. And even if you go against clear zealot (125 sig vs 150ish HAM explo radius) the increased damage from HAMs will equal HMLs. Yes but getting 3 webs on a target is much harder than getting 3 TPs... Also with your last statement you basically say what I'm saying: HAM damage will equal HML damage. The problem is that HML damage can be done from up to around 3 times the range of the HAMs... Originally by: Deva Blackfire I did. But iirc -a- is kinda higher in the food chain than generic_carebear_alliance and brings proper ships for roams instead of "put whatever you find, plexing drakes are OK too". Yeah, but we are not talking about our alliances only, right? I mean, these changes are for everyone, not just high profile pvp alliances. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Yes i do. Otherwise i dont engage unless im sure my "wrong fit" can cope with it. If you end up in equal fight - you screwed up. If you end up using inferior ships against enemy - you screwed up REALLY BAD and the fight should have never happened. Yes, the gang may have screwed up or may have been outmaneuvered, but if you're not attacking a specific target and just roaming around, it may happen that you have to engage something which isn't your ideal target. A flexible fit may win in that occasion anyway, while a more "rigid" one, will have a harder time. I'm fine with this, but it just makes HAMs less appealing to use. Originally by: Deva Blackfire I think you have one pair of eyes (or maybe you dont, dunno) and can see what ship types are in gang and judge from it what range will you engage at. If you see people bringing sniper zealots, muninns and cerbs and you bring HAM drake it means you are either clueless or kinda special... And yeh i have both HAM drake and HML drake (+gangmod fit) ready for both gang styles - short or long range. Well I wasn't talking about MY gang. Ofc I'm not going to bring a HAM drake in a sniper hac gang. I was talking about what happens if you encounter an enemy sniper gang... If they jump on you they are toast... If they warp on you and you have bubble they are toast. If you have close warpin (either by probes or hero ceptor) then the snipers are game...
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.21 23:31:00 - [932] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 23:32:29 Quote: Originally by: Deva Blackfire Need to tackle to do damage. And next you compare non-TP ship with TP one (even tho 1st one has a web which is used instead of TP). So either we compare missiles alone with no support at all or we use proper "support" the ship actually has to offer. Well I compared even without the TP on. In the three cases I shown, even with TP off the HML damage is VERY close (less than 50 dps difference) to HAM damage without webs, either in excess or in defect (while still having a lot more range). Also TP is much easier to apply than a web given its range, don't you agree? Jess. If im in HAM drake i will not engage at 50km. Nor at 30. I engage at around 18km (max HAM range). Thats only 5km from overheated web. As a result IF i engage with HAM drake it means ill be in web range almost always. Basics of target selection: tackle -> kill. I cant rly remember the time i actually fired at a target without having it webbed/tackled properly. And that includes small gangs - firing at non-tackled target is pointless as it can disengage whenever he wishes. As a result EVERY target i engaged was webbed. I dont care if TP works at 60km as i dont engage at that distance. Understood? You start to sound like all blaster whiners "but mah blasters dont hit at 40km". No they dont and never will. Tackle stuff, get close, **. And suddenly range is not an issue. Quote: Yes but getting 3 webs on a target is much harder than getting 3 TPs... Also with your last statement you basically say what I'm saying: HAM damage will equal HML damage. The problem is that HML damage can be done from up to around 3 times the range of the HAMs... Yes. But still i have advantage of actually being up and close to target = i can web him and keep him from running. Again specifics of said weapon are: you use it when you KNOW you will be close. There is no point at all arguing if HAMs on drake do good damage outside of web as you WILL be in web range. With some rare wonky exceptions of using javelins (again: RARE, as in one in 50 kills maybe). Quote: Yeah, but we are not talking about our alliances only, right? I mean, these changes are for everyone, not just high profile pvp alliances. If someone is too stupid to bring long range ship to long range gang is it my problem? Or maybe you are suggesting all weapons should be balanced towards **s? Then i propose to make every weapon out there same, so little Timmy wont get confused by accident and will be a winner every time he undocks. Quote:** Well I wasn't talking about MY gang. Ofc I'm not going to bring a HAM drake in a sniper hac gang. I was talking about what happens if you encounter an enemy sniper gang... If they jump on you they are toast... If they warp on you and you have bubble they are toast. If you have close warpin (either by probes or hero ceptor) then the snipers are game.. In 3rd case i dont engage. Duh i dont need to win them all if its not possible. Again: HAMs are fine if you use them with their role on mind. Ergo: engaging around web/scram range. They do have tad higher range but treat is as a bonus if you actually have gang/faction web instead of "i have 20km range i will engage on its edge". Damage wise? They are fine. Can they hit their intended targets for full/almost full damage? Sure they do. I dont see any problems here. EDIT: i wouldnt mind having 10% more DPS on them. Problem is: with 10% more DPS ill get around 1000dps on my tengu (without overheat) and around 730 on drake. Overpowered? Surely.
Faffywaffy The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.07.22 05:50:00 - [933] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 19:45:44 Originally by: Faffywaffy Also, losing to Garmon in his AB/Scram/Web/Blaster Incursus doesn't count. It was a very close fight and he won because I didn't know it was him at the time and didn't expect it to be fit like that. Damn - so you mean you can only rush against clueless newbs with **fits after all. So still nothing that says rockets are fine. It only proves that rockets are fine as long as you fire at tards with crap fits. No, it means that the tactics of fighting an AB/Scram/Web/Blaster Incursus are different from what you'd normally attempt to do when engaging a t1 frig in 0.0. Originally by:** Deva Blackfire Im yet to see those kills you speak of. In previous discussion i did what Gypsio did here - linked some of your "awesome solo kills" against crapfits. And atm it only shows you can reliably *** on mails / tackle stuff till friends arrive / kill said crapfits. Malediction vs. Crusader Crow vs. Crusader Crow vs. Taranis Rocket crow vs. 2 Missile Crows Malediction vs. Taranis Crow vs. Claw Crow vs. Taranis Malediction vs. Taranis Crow vs. Taranis Crow vs. Taranis Crow vs. Taranis Crow vs. two Rifters followed by Taranis Crow vs. Malediction and Stiletto Originally by:** Deva Blackfire Also taranis can possibly kill most/all other fits (excluding specific counter-fits, as they are what name implies - counters). So can sader with proper piloting skills/fit. I said reliably, not possibly.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.07.22 08:06:00 - [934] Originally by: Faffywaffy Originally by: Gypsio III What a fascinating kill record. In 2010, Faffywaffy has solo-killed 4 (four) interceptors using a rocket Crow or Malediction. Also, losing to Garmon in his AB/Scram/Web/Blaster Incursus doesn't count. It was a very close fight and he won because I didn't know it was him at the time and didn't expect it to be fit like that. Er, what exactly were you expecting? Fitting blasters, scrambler and web on an Incursus should not surprise anyone. Nor should the result when you take a rocket ship into its tackle range. As for the kills you linked. There's barely a non-****** fit there. Scrambler Crusaders, injector-salvager Taranis, SML Crows, come on. Only one of those linked had an afterburner or was dual-prop.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.07.22 08:20:00 - [935] I think the problem is that rockets are just a little too situational. As I stated earlier, a properly fit rocket 'diction will kill any MWD 'sader, regardless of how well it's fit, and most likely most Claws as well. A 'sader though, aside from being much better able to deal with properly fitted 'ranis (I wouldn't consider any of those 'ranis kills Faffy posted to be properly fitted for 'ceptor combat), can also be fit with a long point, as can a 'ranis. Sure it affects their combat capabilities but they still do damage, and it increases their effectiveness in other ways. On the other hand, a rocket malediction has no role outside of a scram/web fit and neither does a rocket Crow, you're better off fitting AC's to a 'diction if you're using a long point. Faffy has highlighted why I think it would be better to decrease the reduction in DPS rockets are hit with, while not affecting their dps at all. Doing that wouldn't affect the situations where rockets are viable, but it would be a buff in situations where they're currently useless. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.22 09:37:00 - [936] Without getting sidetracked by the intricacies of Faffy's kills I think it's fair to say that both he and Braitai make a fair point, namely that rocket crows and maledictions are viable ships in the right hands. Dogfighting has always been a battle of the mid slots and the 4/3/3 slot layout shared by both these ships is near perfect for a combat interceptor. There are other rocket ships that are definitely not ok, hawk springs to mind. Originally by: Faffywaffy I will argue similarly that a properly fit and flown rocket Vengeance will hold its ground against many of the more popular assault frigates. The rocket-bonused interdictors are terrible for reasons unrelated to rockets. If this is how you feel then perhaps you could enlighten us by saying exactly which ships need changed and how they should be changed? Maybe if you give us a proposal and some numbers we can debate the validity of changing ships instead of rockets? I am still of the opinion that Chronotis is right about increasing the DPS of rockets and have yet to see a valid counter proposal, it should be noted that when I ran the numbers for increased damage I specifically pointed out the malediction as one of the ships that might need a nerf and others pointed out that a 160dps rocket crow might be a bit excessive. Whichever way it goes it's clear that the problem is a lot more complex than just tweaking the Ev stat like many on the main forums seem to believe, a plain buff to rockets will boost the better rocket ships to the point of being overpowered, whereas not touching them at all will result in abominations like the dual web armour tanked rocket hawk I put together a while ago (bad experiment, don't recommend it ). _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Faffywaffy The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.07.22 10:15:00 - [937] Originally by: Gypsio III As for the kills you linked. There's barely a non-**** fit there. Scrambler Crusaders, injector-salvager Taranis, SML Crows, come on. Only one of those linked had an afterburner or was dual-prop. Obviously our ideas of what is a properly fit ceptor differ, which to me suggests that you have no idea what you're talking about. All the ones I linked I consider reasonable fits. Crusaders should** be scramble-fit (as should almost all interceptors). There is nothing wrong with an offline salvager in the extra highslot on a taranis (a cap-injector is unusual, but not terrible for specific purposes), and if SML crows are terrible, why are you not crying to boost SMLs?
Faffywaffy The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.07.22 10:24:00 - [938] Originally by: yani dumyat Originally by: Faffywaffy I will argue similarly that a properly fit and flown rocket Vengeance will hold its ground against many of the more popular assault frigates. The rocket-bonused interdictors are terrible for reasons unrelated to rockets. If this is how you feel then perhaps you could enlighten us by saying exactly which ships need changed and how they should be changed? Maybe if you give us a proposal and some numbers we can debate the validity of changing ships instead of rockets? I haven't looked very extensively into the Hawk, but with 4 midslots, I'm pretty sure something useful can be done with it. There are many things that need balancing (the speed of the dramiel, for example), but that's a discussion for a separate thread, isn't it?
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.22 12:07:00 - [939] Re-posting for emphasis. 3 launchers+: (Primary weapon) Hawk Vengeance Malediction Crow Kestrel Breacher* Inquisitor Flycatcher Heretic Worm Caldari Navy Hookbill* Condor"" Split weapons (half and half rockets/guns) Merlin Tristan Eris Extra launcher high slot (meh) Rifter Republic fleet Firetail Harpy Cormorant Thrasher Claw Stiletto Raptor Enyo Jaguar Wolf VINDICATOR DRAMIEL BECAUSE OF TANKY SHUTTLE FALCON Also severely handicapped by stupid slot layout. * Worst pirate frigate by a longshot. Could've just given it hybrids or good fitting for standards but no. * Changed to pure rockets from split weapon AFTER CCP ACKNOWLEDGED THEY WERE BROKEN. Good job on the pre-nerf there! "" Due partly to the stupid and obsolete tier system but still belongs there. Also yeah, sorry but most of those inty kills are utter fail. Especially the Crusaders. I also have to call bull on the idea that half the guys on there are remotely competant. 2 Rifters failing against a Crow with no tank? Someone messed up in a big way to let that happen. And I don't even know why you're bothering linking stuff like the Male + Stiletto. There's nothing impressive about taking down tackle inties. Sorry but you're full of crap. You're picking and chosing a few (fail) killboard results to somehow justify frigates getting 50%+ damage reductions against a weapon that already does poor dps. Also let us know when you get some good results out of that Hawk there. No doubt it'll involve a 200mil isk faction fit. _________________________________ Originally by:** Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.22 12:12:00 - [940] I swear this is the last one on this subject :P Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 23:32:29 Jess. If im in HAM drake i will not engage at 50km. Nor at 30. I engage at around 18km (max HAM range). Thats only 5km from overheated web. As a result IF i engage with HAM drake it means ill be in web range almost always. Basics of target selection: tackle -> kill. I cant rly remember the time i actually fired at a target without having it webbed/tackled properly. And that includes small gangs - firing at non-tackled target is pointless as it can disengage whenever he wishes. As a result EVERY target i engaged was webbed. I dont care if TP works at 60km as i dont engage at that distance. Understood? You start to sound like all blaster whiners "but mah blasters dont hit at 40km". No they dont and never will. Tackle stuff, get close, **. And suddenly range is not an issue. That is all fine and well, but the drake is not the only HAM capable ship around... You can get higher range than the 20ish kms of drakes and sacrileges... Anyway range is not the issue for me, DRF is. Originally by:** Deva Blackfire Yes. But still i have advantage of actually being up and close to target = i can web him and keep him from running. Again specifics of said weapon are: you use it when you KNOW you will be close. There is no point at all arguing if HAMs on drake do good damage outside of web as you WILL be in web range. With some rare wonky exceptions of using javelins (again: RARE, as in one in 50 kills maybe). Well, see above... Originally by: Deva Blackfire If someone is too stupid to bring long range ship to long range gang is it my problem? Or maybe you are suggesting all weapons should be balanced towards ****s? Then i propose to make every weapon out there same, so little Timmy wont get confused by accident and will be a winner every time he undocks. This is not a problem of failfits, it's a problem of pvping guys who can't really chose their targets or have very good intel due to low numbers or whatever. Originally by:** Deva Blackfire In 3rd case i dont engage. Duh i dont need to win them all if its not possible. You mean that if you get a close warpin you won't even try to engage? Well I guess I'm more bloodthirsty... Originally by: Deva Blackfire Again: HAMs are fine if you use them with their role on mind. Ergo: engaging around web/scram range. They do have tad higher range but treat is as a bonus if you actually have gang/faction web instead of "i have 20km range i will engage on its edge". Damage wise? They are fine. Can they hit their intended targets for full/almost full damage? Sure they do. I dont see any problems here. EDIT: i wouldnt mind having 10% more DPS on them. Problem is: with 10% more DPS ill get around 1000dps on my tengu (without overheat) and around 730 on drake. Overpowered? Surely. Again... You may have longer range HAM setups than just drake. And imho a reduction in the HAMs DRF (nothing else), will fix them completely. This way you lose a little less dps due to speed/sig, so you can top HMLs in almost every situation except where range is the only problem. And also you get the same top damage so tengus and drakes don't become overpowered.

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.22 12:33:00 - [941] If HAMs are that much of a problem, could you please carry it over to another thread? This one is for rockets in particular and while standard missiles have leaked into it they have basically the same problems and are used on the same (more or less) ships. More to the point HAMs are a perfectly usable weapon system - rockets on the other hand are very obviously broken to anyone who's even looked at the maths involved. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.22 12:57:00 - [942] Edited by: yani dumyat on 22/07/2010 13:08:34 Originally by: Faffywaffy I haven't looked very extensively into the Hawk, but with 4 midslots, I'm pretty sure something useful can be done with it. There's quite a few things that can be done with it, I've tried most of them and it simply falls short. On paper you'd think it was similar to the vengeance with it's tank bonus and rockets but they're worlds apart, veng is a much better ship (due to resist profile, better tank bonus and slot layout). If you start with a mwd and scram then you're left with 2 slots for whatever combination of web/shield booster/shield extender/cap booster/AB you want (I'll leave out ewar fits for now) The most successful dogfighting fit I've found is MWD/scram/web/medium extender as the capless weapons and tank allow you to neut your opponent. The web is needed to damage to AB ships and provide range control, that leaves you with one mid slot and a damage control left to tank with (the rig slots are used to fill the gaping EM hole) Using a small shield booster in that mid doesn't work, even with the bonus it takes over a minute to be as effective as a medium extender and that's assuming you don't cap out (which you will). The only way to make the boost bonus work is by fitting a cap booster and medium shield booster, this gives you a monster tank but without any range control or meaningful dps you're limited to gang tackle rather than dogfighting. It might make more sense if I compare it to the harpy, both ships have a 5/4/2 slot layout and a range bonus. The harpy deals twice the DPS of the hawk and is not considered overpowered. Edit, if the Hawk is meant to be a low DPS tanky ship then it needs an extra mid, if it's meant to work with the current slot layout then it needs more DPS and the active tank bonus changed to a resist bonus. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Tiny Montgomery	Posted - 2010.07.22 13:01:00 - [943] Originally by: CCP Chronotis A boost, we recognise that rockets do not really pack the punch they should when they compare to other weapons of the equivalent class. We cannot really say more openly until we get to the point where further details will be released in the usual blogs as we near the public testing stage. Needless to say we have kept up with the feedback at the start of the thread when there was good discussion going on so aware of the various suggestions. When is much harder for any of us to answer, each upcoming release has a focus but we do release two major content expansions and the next one is the winter release of those so at the very least, it will be part of that. Good news. Looking forward to better rockets, whatever that might be. Someone ought to mention this to the angry mob with torches in the Iterative Development thread. Although naturally there would be a mighty big bonfire if this didn't come to pass by the Winter expansion.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.22 13:14:00 - [944] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 22/07/2010 13:16:29 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 22/07/2010 13:15:35 Quote: Quote: Originally by: Faffywaffy Also, losing to Garmon in his AB/Scram/Web/Blaster Incursus doesn't count. It was a very close fight and he won because I didn't know it was him at the time and didn't expect it to be fit like that. Damn - so you mean you can only rush against clueless newbs with **fits after all. So still nothing that says rockets are fine. It only proves that rockets are fine as long as you fire at tards with crap fits. No, it means that the tactics of fighting an AB/Scram/Web/Blaster Incursus are different from what you'd normally attempt to do when engaging a t1 frig in 0.0. So exactly what i said: as long as its fit with clueless pilot you can win. Bring better pilot with fit he actually knows how to use and damn, you are not so awesome anymore. Thanks for proving my point. Fortunately CCP acknowledged that rockets are fubar long time ago and you are wasting your breath. Would be hilarious to explain everyone "sorry guys, rockets were broken for 2 years, we were going to fix em but one dude killed some **fits and we dont want to fix them anymore". I hope you have similiar explanation why blasters dont need any fix. Well i do get kills with them and my proteus. Fine i guess v0v EDIT: @ Gecko - if you take it to other thread i might contine. Rocket thread, CBA.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.07.22 13:17:00 - [945] Originally by: Faffywaffy Crusaders should be scramble-fit (as should almost all interceptors). There is nothing wrong with an offline salvager in the extra highslot on a taranis (a cap-injector is unusual, but not terrible for specific purposes), and if SML crows are terrible, why are you not crying to boost SMLs? As Yani says, it's a medslot thing. A scrambler-Crusader is vulnerable to any frigate that can dictate range inside web range. Yes, this includes the rocket Crow, but it also includes the Taranis, whether dual-prop or web-fit, and there's no doubt which is superior over Taranis or rocket Crow. A while ago I spent a long time exploring the rocket Crow on the test server. Analysing the results was tricky because of people's surprise at meeting a rocket Crow - often they just charged straight in to get the scramble - but I found that as soon as anything was faster than me inside web range it was Game Over. Aside from any raw damage issue, the problems with rockets are to do with afterburners and the absolute necessity of fitting a web. I think that your experience in interceptors has made you overlook the AB issue. The damage delivered by rockets to targets is much more dependent on target speed than on the HAM or torp scale, to the extent that a MSE-DC Dramiel can almost passive-tank a Kestrel, and that a web is absolutely essential on a rocket platform. The rapidity of falloff of rocket damage with target speed is controlled by the DRF. If we accept that dealing 100% rocket damage gives acceptable DPS - and I'll come back to this in a minute, hah - I will not accept that rocket DPS is acceptable against ABing targets. See pretty piccy that shows how rocket damage falls off against a fast target of sig 36 m. Current rocket DRF is 3.0 - the graph shows the damage falloff for DRFs of 2.0 and 1.5. A reduction in DRF would increase rocket damage against ABing targets, but not change it against a sufficiently tackled target - into which category the typical MWD-only interceptor falls when webbed and scrambled. Secondly, let's look at raw rocket damage. Let's ignore killmails because, quite frankly, killmails prove nothing. let's compare Rocket Crow with rail Taranis, as they have similar engagement envelopes, and both have the important three medslots. 125 mm rail-Taranis with two Warriors = 156 DPS. Rocket Crow = 97 DPS. I know there's the option to get under the rails' tracking, but this only becomes significant below 2 km even at high transversals, and is hardly doable anyway when both ships have three medslots.
Faffywaffy The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.07.22 14:04:00 - [946] Originally by: Gypsio III let's compare Rocket Crow with rail Taranis, as they have similar engagement envelopes, and both have the important three medslots. 125 mm rail-Taranis with two Warriors = 156 DPS. Rocket Crow = 97 DPS. I know there's the option to get under the rails' tracking, but this only becomes significant below 2 km even at high transversals, and is hardly doable anyway when both ships have three medslots. First, my rocket crow does 130 dps (it does have a turret slot, but the taranis doesn't have any missile slots). But yes, the taranis does out-DPS it. That is not surprising though, as the taranis gets that dps in exchange for being worse at other things (namely speed). Turret damage can be reduced by increasing angular velocity. Missile damage can be reduced by increasing absolute velocity. That is how it was meant to be. Perhaps the DRF could be tweaked a bit without making rockets OP, but it should still be possible to get a significant reduction in damage from rockets by using an AB.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.22 14:33:00 - [947] Yeh cute and all. But you are still only talking from the perspective of outtracking other guns using 2 ceptors which are fastest frigs out there (and they cant rly outrun gatlings if properly flown but thats neiglible as you kill badfits anyways). How is your rocket experience with remaining 10 rocket ships (which use rockets as primary weapon)? Ofc normal t2 fits, not 200mil expensive ones for comparison sake. Im yet to see heretic or AF outtracking small guns (and taranis will obliterate heretic in most cases).
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.07.22 14:57:00 - [948] Originally by: Faffywaffy That is not surprising though, as the taranis gets that dps in exchange for being worse at other things (namely speed). Not really, an AB offers a speed increase that is greater than the reduction a web inflicts, a proper duel-prop fit should be quicker while webbed than a scram/web rocket 'ceptor, even a 'diction. This is why I said that those 'ranis KM's you posted aren't really combat-effective, they're oldschool web/scram/blaster fits and the one duelprop fit has no speed mods at all and doesn't even have a t2 AB. An optimally fit 'ranis will beat a rocket Crow/Malediction EVERY time, either scram/web/rail or duelprop/blasters/rails (yes I've seen duel prop rail fits, they're pretty good). Quote: Perhaps the DRF could be tweaked a bit without making rockets OP, but it should still be possible to get a significant reduction in damage from rockets by using an AB. Depending on your definition of "significant" I may or may not agree with this. Some KM's for the doubters, just 'cause I want to join in with Faffy's E-peen waving. I haven't been terribly active lately so some of these are oollld, but then, rockets were broken ages ago. http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=127131 http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=119342 http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=113916 http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=111125 Slicers are currently my favourite thing to kill. Their DPS ends up being about on par with an average 'sader once tracking is taken into account, which isn't enough to break a 'diction's tank. http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=110892 A 13.5 KM warp scrambler means a TE/locus/pulse 'sader has no chance of kiting a 'diction. http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=110088 Armor rep on a 'sader probably isn't the smartest thing in the world I guess but otherwise that's a solid dogfighting fit (if a little none-standard, grid rig+DLP instead of just using gatlings) http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=83075 Notice the lack of speed - 2 aux thrusters and a t2 AB+overload would have turned the tide very quickly. http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=96470 Buff Claws - no really, I actually think they need some love. A falloff bonus maybe. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.22 15:44:00 - [949] Posters that are too inept to press the hyperlink button annoy me, it's a pet peeve like drivers who don't indicate, people who pick their nose in public and people who voice strong opinions in TSF forum without analysis or numbers to back their argument up. Originally by: Braitai 1 2 3 4 Slicers are currently my favourite thing to kill. Their DPS ends up being about on par with an average 'sader once tracking is taken into account, which isn't enough to break a 'diction's tank. 5 A 13.5 KM warp scrambler means a TE/locus/pulse 'sader has no chance of kiting a 'diction. 6 Armor rep on a 'sader probably isn't the smartest thing in the world I guess but otherwise that's a solid dogfighting fit (if a little none-standard, grid rig+DLP instead of just using gatlings) 7 Notice the lack of speed - 2 aux thrusters and a t2 AB+overload would have turned the tide very quickly. 8 Buff Claws - no really, I actually think they need some love. A falloff bonus maybe. [/pedantic rant] _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.24 01:17:00 - [950] Back to the top. Gief moar fix plx. Also to repeat my question from a few pages ago: Quote: If I may make a suggestion, have you considered dropping the power grid reqs slightly on standards? It has to be said, they are absurdly high considering they also come with a large CPU cost and most of the ships that use them have very poor grid. It would be fine if not for the fact unlike turret users, missile ships only have one choice of long range weapon. It's sort of the equivilent of removing all but the highest caliber turrets. They'd still be harder to cram on to a given ship, but more in proportion with the ships actual fitting capabilities. As an example: a Kestrel with 4x SML II and max skills has a grand total of 5 grid left, and nearly half its CPU gone. Also out of interest, was the Hookbill specifically never intended to fit standards? with that ship it's more an issue of the CPU being ridiculously low for a 5-mid missile boat (although it really needs a grid mod to get everything on...). Even with rockets it needs a lot of named stuff to crowbar the right mods onto that thing. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.

Brutus B	Posted - 2010.07.24 04:52:00 - [951] Is it too late to ask CCP for a special kind of rocket that can alpha a titan, but can't do any damage to anything else? Sort of a Star Wars X-wing vs the Death Star thing. :-D Actually, maybe that was there purpose all along and none of us ever figured it out! (Just kidding about the crazy balancing thing, such would suck for pvp--but something like that would be a cool scenerio for a storyline mission, where you're a small fish in a big fleet VS fleet fight, and you have a secret weapon that can kill the enemies biggest gun, you get in, deploy your weapon, and gtfo before dying--while the majority of the npc red's aggro is going to npc whites.) Anyway, I'll just be glad when teh rocket issue is fixed sometime-winterish... been so many threads on this issue it would drive me crazy if I was wroking at CCP. It'll be interesting how a a change in this area effects my gameplay. I mean, I've learned to ignore the fact that rockets even exist, since like I first started playing the game. For them to actually get some utility, might make them fun and profitable to use. CCP should throw a party when this fix is done. SERIOUSLY. It's a little thing, but it's one of those little things, that nearly every player in the game has been annoyed by at least once. Everyone that has seen real avaition footage or even a good war movie knows rockets should be cool, insanely high rapid fire, havoc causing carnage rods! :-D Eve experience should try to match that RL expectation, and be a competitive weapons system vs other weapons systems in it's class.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.24 10:41:00 - [952] Quote: It'll be interesting how a a change in this area effects my gameplay. I mean, I've learned to ignore the fact that rockets even exist, since like I first started playing the game. I'll have to get used to the Hawk not completely sucking. "Get a new AF, the Hawk is total cr- oh hang on..." _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.24 11:16:00 - [953] Originally by: Brutus B CCP should throw a party when this fix is done. So should we, assuming AFs and rockets get done at the same time it would be nice to get an AF party going where everyone gets an AF and a bottle of rum, start in low sec and rampage through 0.0 _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.24 13:30:00 - [954] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Quote: It'll be interesting how a a change in this area effects my gameplay. I mean, I've learned to ignore the fact that rockets even exist, since like I first started playing the game. I'll have to get used to the Hawk not completely sucking. "Get a new AF, the Hawk is total cr- oh hang on..." Oh don't get excited... The hawk needs far more help than just a rocket fix...
Ninetails o'Cat League of Super Evil	Posted - 2010.07.25 06:46:00 - [955] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Quote: It'll be interesting how a a change in this area effects my gameplay. I mean, I've learned to ignore the fact that rockets even exist, since like I first started playing the game. I'll have to get used to the Hawk not completely sucking. "Get a new AF, the Hawk is total cr- oh hang on..." Oh don't get excited... The hawk needs far more help than just a rocket fix... Just swap the boost bonus for a resist bonus, and it all makes sense.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.07.25 09:27:00 - [956] Heh, i have to say that braitais rocket malediction made me change my slicer fit and always bring drop with me /im terrible at manual piloting = if anything goes more than 3k i end in scram range even if im considerably faster/. Btw i hate that i miss like 0,1pg to fit anp to male. I also understand that for his playstyle it would be better if rockets got better damage projection /dualprop male to counter targets ab and still 60dps tank/ instead of just plain dps boost, but tbh i think that dps boost will help more ships. For example hawk and vengeance desperately need more dps. Btw whats the problem with hams /other than that you want hmls 90% of the time anyway/.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.25 11:34:00 - [957] Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat Just swap the boost bonus for a resist bonus, and it all makes sense. Not really, the fittings would need changed to accommodate an MSE rather than the booster and even then it sucks with low damage and lack of mid/low slots. The AF's with 6 mid/low slots all do 150-250dps and have a utility high slot to spare, the AF's with 7 mid/low slots do 100-200 dps and all apart from the vengeance have a utility high. The hawk has 6 mid/low slots, does about 110 dps and needs a fitting mod for most decent fits. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.25 12:43:00 - [958] The fittings need to be changed more than that. The CPU on that thing is awful. I tried to cram a SML fit on there, I eventually managed it - but the result was just a slower Crow. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.26 00:29:00 - [959] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington The fittings need to be changed more than that. The CPU on that thing is awful. I tried to cram a SML fit on there, I eventually managed it - but the result was just a slower Crow. [OT RANT] Kinda like the Ranis is a better blaster assault boat than both the enyo and the harpy =/ [/OT RANT] Ahem, well, AFs need help more than just fixing rockets/missiles. Still it's a step in the right direction. (Though if rockets get fixed and become a balanced close range weapons, I doubt we'll see many hawks since the crow will probably be much better anyway.)
Captain Mastiff	Posted - 2010.07.27 08:33:00 - [960] Confirming ROFLKETS are broken.

Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.07.28 14:19:00 - [961] Confirming ROFLKETS are broken.
scunner funk Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.29 16:59:00 - [962] Confirming ALT POSTING is not broken
Jyngo	Posted - 2010.07.30 07:27:00 - [963] Bumping this thread because I desperately want the Vengeance to be a good ship.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.07.30 10:22:00 - [964] in 18 months, maybe Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.30 11:13:00 - [965] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 30/07/2010 11:13:14 Quote: Bumping this thread because I desperately want the Vengeance to be a good ship. It is a good ship. ... If you use guns. 3 launchers+: (Primary weapon) Hawk Vengeance Malediction Crow Kestrel Breacher* Inquisitor Flycatcher Heretic Worm Caldari Navy Hookbill* Condor"" Split weapons (half and half rockets/guns) Merlin Tristan Eris Extra launcher high slot (meh) Rifter Republic fleet Firetail Harpy Cormorant Thrasher Claw Stiletto Raptor Enyo Jaguar Wolf VINDICATOR DRAMIEL BECAUSE OF TANKY SHUTTLE FALCON Also severely handicapped by stupid slot layout. * Worst pirate frigate by a longshot. Could've just given it hybrids or good fitting for standards but no. *** Changed to pure rockets from split weapon AFTER CCP ACKNOWLEDGED THEY WERE BROKEN. Good job on the pre-nerf there! "" Due partly to the stupid and obsolete tier system but still belongs there. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.30 17:13:00 - [966] List of issues with rockets (complete i think): - inability to deal decent damage to small targets (especially ABing frigs) without using 1+ (2+ for Ab ships) webs or multiple painters which is impossible to put on one frig --> explo velocity and DamageReductionFactor issue - low damage (DPS) values. Bonused rocket launchers (+25% damage) are outclassed even by lowest tier autocannons and lasers - small clip capacity. Increase it to 80 (?) as rockets already lose circa 10% dps from reloads alone. Reducing ROF and upping damage (so DPS stays the same) would also help the issue a bit. Yet another way: reduce size of rockets. - short range due to how rocket is fired from ship (in front of) and due to rocket being "dumb" and not following target for around a second after a launch (which is around 1/3 of its total flight time = loses 1/3 of its range before it even starts to track target) - inability to hit non-webbed MWD frigs due to low velocity (3-4km/s wheras heavy missiles/cruises get upwards to 8km/s... its funny when heavy missile can catch up to ceptor and frig vs frig weapon cant) - "missile agility" issue. Old test of mine: rockets change dirtection (while following target) each second. This means that target which turns fast will not be hit at all (they have like 2 direction changes and are gone). Tested on close range orbit ceptor (think he was 500m orbit, landed at 3,5km from me doing around 2km/s) - with skills 5/5/dictors 4 (heretic, thus additional 40% to rocket velocity) he was hit 3 times out of around 100 rockets fired. - fitting issues of t2 rocket launchers on some ships. Example: heretic. Fitting 6 rocket launchers eats most of CPU ship has to offer. Any decent anti-frig setup (similiar to sabre: extender, web, damage mod, bubble blower, guns/rockets) will hit the CPU wall (and grid wall soon after) wheras sabre or catcher has no big issues fitting it all.
Aglais Caldari	Posted - 2010.07.31 18:06:00 - [967] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 30/07/2010 11:13:14 Worm Worst pirate frigate by a longshot. Could've just given it hybrids or good fitting for standards but no. I think in Apocrypha sometime the Worm had Hybrids. So it suffers a similar fate of the Hookbill, really.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.31 19:11:00 - [968] Quote: I think in Apocrypha sometime the Worm had Hybrids. So it suffers a similar fate of the Hookbill, really. Yeah as I recall it was similar to the Typhoon nowadays - dual bonused and fittable with either launchers or turrets. Shame it sucked at both, but the current iteration isn't a huge improvement... _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.01 15:16:00 - [969] When they fix rockets* the decision to remove the split weapons system will turn out to be a blessing, one of the big advantages of range bonused rockets is you can move between 500m and edge of scramble range without reducing your dps. Split weapons remove this advantage. Worm wouldn't seem so bad if the ishkur wasn't so much better, needs something to set the two ships apart. * "A bit of optimism never hurt." Said the dead horse _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
So Cash	Posted - 2010.08.01 22:52:00 - [970] I agree, Roflkets do appear to be broken.

Zanaraxtarus Knowledge Stick Station	Posted - 2010.08.03 12:06:00 - [971] It's been FAR too long since someone added to this thread! Well, I guess not anymore... Seriously though, I think we all (and by "we all" I, of course, mean "anyone with any experience TRYING to use rockets" and/or "anyone with any remedial math skills") know that rockets are borked ("broken" kind of implies they were, at some point, "fixed" and I don't THINK that was ever the case [correct me if I'm wrong, please]) Point being, same as the many other posts, PLEASE (anyone tried saying 'please' yet?) fix rockets SOON! (tomorrow's downtime would be GREAT!) (so frustrated when I think of this that I don't even know which smiley to use!) -Zan- --Zan--
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.08.04 23:54:00 - [972] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 04/08/2010 23:55:19 See sig. \| \| V _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.08.05 22:30:00 - [973] Are rockets fixed yet? ...sigh
Zanon Ar'Dhaos Caldari Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace	Posted - 2010.08.07 18:21:00 - [974] Not on page 1? Back you go.
ore4all Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:57:00 - [975] rocket suck do you ppl buy rockets FOF missiles suck to and defender need fix all 3 **y missiles ciass i love biger rockets and lil torps add rockets for super fire speed ok air time ** for dmg and slow fireing torp lot dmg butt low air time and missiles for ok dmg and good air time
Khalik Artonid	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:35:00 - [976] Originally by: ore4all rocket suck do you ppl buy rockets FOF missiles suck to and defender need fix all 3 **y missiles ciass i love biger rockets and lil torps add rockets for super fire speed ok air time ** for dmg and slow fireing torp lot dmg butt low air time and missiles for ok dmg and good air time What.
Zach Donnell Ghost-Busters	Posted - 2010.08.09 20:31:00 - [977] Originally by: ore4all rocket suck do you ppl buy rockets FOF missiles suck to and defender need fix all 3 **y missiles ciass i love biger rockets and lil torps add rockets for super fire speed ok air time ** for dmg and slow fireing torp lot dmg butt low air time and missiles for ok dmg and good air time I lol'd. ------------------------------------------------- "Bustin' makes me feel good!"
King Dave The Collective	Posted - 2010.08.10 11:27:00 - [978] Guys i wouldn't argue with Deva, he is ret4rded. <3 deva --------- "Evil Edna > just get director roles, put child **** in the corp bio and then petition ccp"
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.08.10 11:43:00 - [979] Originally by: King Dave Guys i wouldn't argue with Deva, he is ret4rded. <3 deva Petitioned !!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111 And well... free bump i guess ;p
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.11 11:45:00 - [980] This thread seems to have gone all bumpy, did we just run something over? _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.

Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems The Laughing Men	Posted - 2010.08.12 20:04:00 - [981] Originally by: yani dumyat This thread seems to have gone all bumpy, did we just run something over? Yeah, I was hoping we ran over a rocket fix. Guess not though. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Darth Felin	Posted - 2010.08.13 11:10:00 - [982] Originally by: Krennel Darius Originally by: yani dumyat This thread seems to have gone all bumpy, did we just run something over? Yeah, I was hoping we ran over a rocket fix. Guess not though. don't worry we will have space combat expansion and it will be included there of course. It is scheduled for late autumn 2011 but it will .
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.08.13 13:43:00 - [983] Originally by: Darth Felin Originally by: Krennel Darius Originally by: yani dumyat This thread seems to have gone all bumpy, did we just run something over? Yeah, I was hoping we ran over a rocket fix. Guess not though. don't worry we will have space combat expansion and it will be included there of course. It is scheduled for late autumn 2011 but it will . Heh young ones. So innocent and naive :P
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.08.13 21:17:00 - [984] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Darth Felin Originally by: Krennel Darius Originally by: yani dumyat This thread seems to have gone all bumpy, did we just run something over? Yeah, I was hoping we ran over a rocket fix. Guess not though. don't worry we will have space combat expansion and it will be included there of course. It is scheduled for late autumn 2011 but it will . Heh young ones. So innocent and naive :P In truth after reading his post I thought "Whoa, so, after walking in station we can actually FLY IN SPACE??? Totally cool, man!" :D Space combat expansions sounds so much like the "Jump to lightspeed" expansion for SWG (which tbh was probably the best addiction ever and it was a damn pity they neglected it so much to continue ruining the already doomed "ground play"). Ahem, back to topic. Roflkets, soon?
HeliosGal Caldari	Posted - 2010.08.17 06:04:00 - [985] what happens when ccp ignores something
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems The Laughing Men	Posted - 2010.08.17 20:29:00 - [986] Originally by: HeliosGal what happens when ccp ignores something Rockets don't get fixed for two years? I failed to see a rocket fix in this latest patch CCP. _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
Nimbat	Posted - 2010.08.18 01:30:00 - [987] Edited by: Nimbat on 18/08/2010 01:32:07 Originally by: ore4all i love biger rockets and lil torps add rockets for super fire speed ok air time ** for dmg and slow fireing torp lot dmg butt low air time and missiles for ok dmg and good air time Let's try translating this . I love big rockets and little torps. Add superfire speed r0ckets (okay airtime) but for damage. Slow firing torps, lots of damage with butt speed (ok). Missiles for ok damage and good air speed. Originally by:** Khalik Artonid What. Still doesn't make sense, sorry.
Patri Andari Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer	Posted - 2010.08.18 08:32:00 - [988] Originally by: ore4all i love biger rockets and lil torps add rockets for super fire speed ok air time ** for dmg and slow fireing torp lot dmg butt low air time and missiles for ok dmg and good air time What? You guys don't speak gibberish? Better translation: Originally by:** ore4all i love biger rockets and lil torps I would like to see the creation of new types of missiles in the game. Originally by: ore4all add rockets for super fire speed ok air time ** for dmg Create medium and large sized rockets (cruiser and battleship sized weapons) that have a high rof, low burn time, average velocity, and poor damage (alpha). Originally by:** ore4all and slow fireing torp lot dmg butt low air time Also create small and medium sized torps (frigate and cruiser sized weapons) that have a slow rof, slow velocity, and high damage (alpha). Originally by: ore4all and missiles for ok dmg and good air time Brain fart? HTH Patri I'll Roshambo You For That Titan!
omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.08.20 01:34:00 - [989] CCP needs to nerf larger missiles to bring them in line with rockets.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.08.20 10:54:00 - [990] Nope, CCP needs to nerf frigate turrets so they need 3 rigs to hit targets their own size. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED

CommandoII AEON Pirating The AEON Conglomerate	Posted - 2010.08.20 17:50:00 - [991] Edited by: CommandoII on 20/08/2010 17:50:46 As a recent missle trainer I can agree that rockets need fixing. Just finished training rocket specialization to 4, and my god they are terrible. I almost gave up when I popped my 900k SP price checker in his (minmattar noob frig).
Jyngo Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.08.24 09:45:00 - [992] Back to the top you go.
Losvar Caldari Section Omega E.X.I.L.E.S	Posted - 2010.08.24 16:29:00 - [993] Fix rockets! NAO! p.s. hookbill is quite awesome atm though (the only rocket ship that works).
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.08.25 09:42:00 - [994] Originally by: Losvar Fix rockets! NAO! p.s. hookbill is quite awesome atm though (the only rocket ship that works). And all it needs is the dual web to do it On the subject of the Hookbill though, I really want to see the minutes of the dev meeting about that ship. No, really, I do. I so want to see the train of thought that led them to "Ok guys, It's a ship that shield tanks and uses missiles with 5 mids... let's give it less CPU than a Hawk with maxed out skills!" _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
LoRDa RaMOs Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.08.26 16:56:00 - [995] Currently, there's no reason to train rockets, and furthermore, use them on Assault Frigates. Not even for the extra Mid-Slots, since you would be better off in an Interceptor. Not even for the tank, since we know Frigs are awful tankers. Not even for the range, since a Rail Ishkur can do a lot better and with more DPS. This alone, makes Rocket-oriented Assault Frigates useless. Now, this proves it, took screens and compared The Vengeance (since it is a perfect example of how such an artistic eye candy is totally wasted), to other popular Assault Frigates DPV/DPS: Vengeance Vs Rail Ishkur OMG! WTF? Vengeance Vs Retribution Vengeance Vs Wolf, Clash of the useless ships and proof of how Matari owns Amarr So, wake up people, we know missiles ain't designed for DPS but, wtf.? I really think they need some love.
Bonny Lee Caldari Starkstrom Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.08.27 12:31:00 - [996] Edited by: Bonny Lee on 27/08/2010 12:32:33 Originally by: LoRDa RaMOs Currently, there's no reason to train rockets, and furthermore, use them on Assault Frigates. Not even for the extra Mid-Slots, since you would be better off in an Interceptor. Not even for the tank, since we know Frigs are awful tankers. Not even for the range, since a Rail Ishkur can do a lot better and with more DPS. This alone, makes Rocket-oriented Assault Frigates useless. Now, this proves it, took screens and compared The Vengeance (since it is a perfect example of how such an artistic eye candy is totally wasted), to other popular Assault Frigates DPV/DPS: Vengeance Vs Rail Ishkur OMG! WTF? Vengeance Vs Retribution Vengeance Vs Wolf, Clash of the useless ships and proof of how Matari owns Amarr So, wake up people, we know missiles ain't designed for DPS but, wtf.? I really think they need some love. I dont want to say rockets are ok but your "example" is just to funny. 1. Vengeance vs Rail Ishkur. - Drones can be shot - Your Ishkur Fitting has a lot less room left in PG and CPU => you could tank the vengeance more 2. Vengeance vs Retribution - again: Retri has far less Options for Fitting left cause it used more PG and CPU to fit like this. - Retri has ONLY 1 medslot. It should do more Damage to compensate the inabillity of Scrambling etc. 3. Vengeance vs Jaguar - this is the first time the other ship has more PG and CPU left. Grats. - Veng got 40 DPS less Damage but has more then double the range. Maybee this is worth it? - If you compare Vengeance to Wolf you probably should use a Wolf. If you use a Jaguar dont failfit it pls. => You are comparing your Vengeance to 3 Ships with only rockets as modules fitted and not complete viable Setups. Noone will ever fly a Jaguar like you fitted it to begin with. Noone will (in most cases) ever use Hail S. You probably have no idea how to fly the ships you compared the vengeance too. => Yes those Rockets could use some love. => Yes Jaguar, Wolf and Ishkur are nice ships. => NO YOU DONT HAVE ANY VIABLE ARGUMENT WITH YOUR FUNNY EXAMPLES CAUSE THEY ARE SO BAD
LoRDa RaMOs Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.08.27 17:15:00 - [997] Originally by: Bonny Lee Edited by: Bonny Lee on 27/08/2010 12:32:33 Originally by: LoRDa RaMOs Currently, there's no reason to train rockets, and furthermore, use them on Assault Frigates. Not even for the extra Mid-Slots, since you would be better off in an Interceptor. Not even for the tank, since we know Frigs are awful tankers. Not even for the range, since a Rail Ishkur can do a lot better and with more DPS. This alone, makes Rocket-oriented Assault Frigates useless. Now, this proves it, took screens and compared The Vengeance (since it is a perfect example of how such an artistic eye candy is totally wasted), to other popular Assault Frigates DPV/DPS: Vengeance Vs Rail Ishkur OMG! WTF? Vengeance Vs Retribution Vengeance Vs Wolf, Clash of the useless ships and proof of how Matari owns Amarr So, wake up people, we know missiles ain't designed for DPS but, wtf.? I really think they need some love. I dont want to say rockets are ok but your "example" is just to funny. 1. Vengeance vs Rail Ishkur. - Drones can be shot - Your Ishkur Fitting has a lot less room left in PG and CPU => you could tank the vengeance more 2. Vengeance vs Retribution - again: Retri has far less Options for Fitting left cause it used more PG and CPU to fit like this. - Retri has ONLY 1 medslot. It should do more Damage to compensate the inabillity of Scrambling etc. 3. Vengeance vs Jaguar - this is the first time the other ship has more PG and CPU left. Grats. - Veng got 40 DPS less Damage but has more then double the range. Maybee this is worth it? - If you compare Vengeance to Wolf you probably should use a Wolf. If you use a Jaguar dont failfit it pls. => You are comparing your Vengeance to 3 Ships with only rockets as modules fitted and not complete viable Setups. Noone will ever fly a Jaguar like you fitted it to begin with. Noone will (in most cases) ever use Hail S. You probably have no idea how to fly the ships you compared the vengeance too. => Yes those Rockets could use some love. => Yes Jaguar, Wolf and Ishkur are nice ships. => NO YOU DONT HAVE ANY VIABLE ARGUMENT WITH YOUR FUNNY EXAMPLES CAUSE THEY ARE SO BAD I know the fits are not what you normally see around. And i know the Vengeance could have some advantages. However the central point on my post was: - Comparing DPS Hence the use of the most damage oriented Ammo, higher tier small weapons, no other modules... It would just be lame to start a discussion on how a Jag, for example, should be fit to kill a Vengeance. Granted, drones can be destroyed, but EFT doesn't take them into consideration for DPV. So the solo rails still own rockets... Well, in this particular case (-DPV-). I don't know much about the Jag, but seeing as i used armor tanking AFs, i just wanted to hint the possibility of speed tanking the hell out of those rockets. And again, my contribution here is to DPS. There's too many details to cover but, let's remember the core of the discussion shall we?
deathkiller95	Posted - 2010.08.27 17:40:00 - [998] Quote: Rocket Launcher II A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really intended as a primary weapon but rather as a cheap supplementary weapon system. Must be loaded with rockets: Foxfire, Gremlin, Phalanx, Thorn as well as Javelin and Rage variants. They're NOT MEANT to be on-par with the other weapons. They're only meant to add a little bit of extra DPS for a Rifter or something.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.08.27 20:28:00 - [999] Originally by: deathkiller95 Quote: Rocket Launcher II A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really intended as a primary weapon but rather as a cheap supplementary weapon system. Must be loaded with rockets: Foxfire, Gremlin, Phalanx, Thorn as well as Javelin and Rage variants. They're NOT MEANT to be on-par with the other weapons. They're only meant to add a little bit of extra DPS for a Rifter or something. You are an idiot / clueless / troll (or all of the above). Ill let others explain why, if they care.
deathkiller95	Posted - 2010.08.27 20:35:00 - [1000] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: deathkiller95 Quote: Rocket Launcher II A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really intended as a primary weapon but rather as a cheap supplementary weapon system. Must be loaded with rockets: Foxfire, Gremlin, Phalanx, Thorn as well as Javelin and Rage variants. They're NOT MEANT to be on-par with the other weapons. They're only meant to add a little bit of extra DPS for a Rifter or something. You are an idiot / clueless / troll (or all of the above). Ill let others explain why, if they care. Ah, so you think you know better than CCP do you? I know whose judment I trust more!

Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.08.27 20:56:00 - [1001] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 27/08/2010 20:57:10 Originally by: deathkiller95 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: deathkiller95 Quote: Rocket Launcher II A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really intended as a primary weapon but rather as a cheap supplementary weapon system. Must be loaded with rockets: Foxfire, Gremlin, Phalanx, Thorn as well as Javelin and Rage variants. They're NOT MEANT to be on-par with the other weapons. They're only meant to add a little bit of extra DPS for a Rifter or something. You are an idiot / clueless / troll (or all of the above). Ill let others explain why, if they care. Ah, so you think you know better than CCP do you? I know whose judment I trust more! They already acknowledged the issues. So i guess i know better. EDIT: and to answer my guess from [995]. All 3 at once.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.08.28 00:18:00 - [1002] ^ Obvious troll is obvious. It's often hard to tell these days but people that stupid are really rare, so that's my bet. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
Khalessa	Posted - 2010.08.28 01:49:00 - [1003] Dear CCP, Please fix rockets so that a large percentage of the ships that I am able to fly...aren't completely and utterly useless!!! Thank you...
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.08.28 10:37:00 - [1004] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington ^ Obvious troll is obvious. It's often hard to tell these days but people that stupid are really rare, so that's my bet. I wish I could be that positive about the human race...
Krennel Darius Caldari Nova Security Systems The Laughing Men	Posted - 2010.08.30 16:24:00 - [1005] Did you guys forget to add the rocket fix you were working on to this latest patch CCP? _________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.01 13:28:00 - [1006] What is the opposite of vertigo? I seem to get an apprehensive feeling whenever this thread drops too low on the page and wondered if there is a name for this condition? _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.09.01 14:56:00 - [1007] Originally by: yani dumyat What is the opposite of vertigo? I seem to get an apprehensive feeling whenever this thread drops too low on the page and wondered if there is a name for this condition? Not really the opposite of vertigo... The term you're looking for is OCD :D (I also noticed my previous post was the 1000th in the thread... GO ME! \o/ )
Henri Rearden Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.01 15:08:00 - [1008] Still waiting for rockets to make a decent chunk of the frigate hulls useful...
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.02 07:34:00 - [1009] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac The term you're looking for is OCD :D I believe the correct term is CDO, it's the same disorder but with the letters in alphabetical order LIKE THEY SHOULD BE! _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Opertone Caldari Metalworks Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.09.02 08:06:00 - [1010] rockets need some DPS and other stats boost. Rockets should be wtf PWN weapon of caldari kestrel frigate.

omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.09.02 12:03:00 - [1011] Maybe the Kestrel, Breacher and Inquisitor should be given 10-slot layouts and non-nerfed grid and CPU compared to ships like Rifter, merlin, and Punisher? This would partially fix rockets...
Ban Doga	Posted - 2010.09.03 08:46:00 - [1012] Edited by: Ban Doga on 03/09/2010 08:46:00 Impatiently waiting for the highly anticipated change to rockets that is still on CCP's internal dev servers. I'm sure it will be released this winter.
Ketusan	Posted - 2010.09.04 16:32:00 - [1013] Here's a good idea for a fix :: Add a new class of t1 rockets. Anti-Frigate Rockets > Special qualities to damage frigs
BlahBlahBlah exwife	Posted - 2010.09.06 08:01:00 - [1014] Originally by: Ketusan Here's a good idea for a fix :: Add a new class of t1 rockets. Anti-Frigate Rockets > Special qualities to damage frigs That's not a fix. That's a joke. Rockets ARE anti-frig weapons. Would you want to have to add a special type of ammo for your Large turrets to damage battleships?
BlahBlahBlah exwife	Posted - 2010.09.06 08:04:00 - [1015] Rockets need a little more range too, tbh, since the missile accelleration changes reduced it. The Crow, in particular suffers from this. As does the Hawk, really, but the rocket Crow is pretty much a thing of the past, and unless range is increased a bit along with the other rocket attributes that need adjusted, it will remain so.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.06 12:44:00 - [1016] Originally by: Ketusan Here's a good idea for a fix :: Add a new class of t1 rockets. Anti-Frigate Rockets > Special qualities to damage frigs Just... stop posting. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.07 15:55:00 - [1017] Edited by: yani dumyat on 07/09/2010 16:03:46 Originally by: CCP Chronotis We'll just go ahead and stop working on these changes siting on our internal servers then shall we if you want to wait till then This was posted by CCP Chronotis on Friday 13th August, I'm not usually superstitious but Friday the 13th is an ominous date and he's not been seen for nearly a month now, should we send out a search party? Edit - added pic cos it always makes me smile _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2010.09.07 17:13:00 - [1018] Originally by: yani dumyat Originally by: CCP Chronotis We'll just go ahead and stop working on these changes siting on our internal servers then shall we if you want to wait till then This was posted by CCP Chronotis on Friday 13th August, I'm not usually superstitious but Friday the 13th is an ominous date and he's not been seen for nearly a month now, should we send out a search party? Edit - added pic cos it always makes me smile another quote from me :p Quote: Rockets/Missiles are being worked on over the summer (most of us are away on vacation currently as we all take it at the same time to help project planning) and you should see a proper blog discussing the initial changes when we are ready for public testing september onwards typically. oh hey, it's september and guess what we are working on - another week or so and we'll look to hotdrop some changes onto sisi for you if we get green light as it is being used for lag fix testing right now.

yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.07 18:12:00 - [1019] Good to know you're safe and the Friday 13th gremlins didn't get you Originally by: CCP Chronotis we'll look to hotdrop some changes onto sisi Does it sound wrong if I say I'm looking forward to seeing the devs hot drop their rockets? _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.09.07 21:00:00 - [1020] Edited by: Gecko O''Bac on 07/09/2010 21:04:21 Originally by: yani dumyat Good to know you're safe and the Friday 13th gremlins didn't get you Originally by: CCP Chronotis we'll look to hotdrop some changes onto sisi Does it sound wrong if I say I'm looking forward to seeing the devs hot drop their rockets? I get the innuendo but I'm more worried about the fact that the rocket fix may have to compete with lag fixes to get on Sisi... Now that's a fight I wouldn't like to witness =/ Lag ofc has the priority but rockets have been broken for sooooo long... And also, a rocket fix is much easier and faster to test than the lag fixes so I suppose rockets could get a little push ahead? Edit: lol solution! Give everybody amarr and caldari AF skills and make the fleet fight a 500 man ROCKET FRIGATE GRANDE MELEE! Win

yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.08 00:17:00 - [1021] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac solution! Give everybody amarr and caldari AF skills and make the fleet fight a 500 man ROCKET FRIGATE GRANDE MELEE! Win This ^^ sign me up :) _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Mussaschi	Posted - 2010.09.08 09:29:00 - [1022] Edited by: Mussaschi on 08/09/2010 09:29:15 Originally by: CCP Chronotis oh hey, it's september and guess what we are working on - another week or so and we'll look to hotdrop some changes onto sisi for you if we get green light as it is being used for lag fix testing right now. Dead Horse Running ;) Thanks for this update. So maybe we even see a pos upgrade one day ;)
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.08 10:55:00 - [1023] Confirming I will be coming to the next mass test in a rocket Drake _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
Alex Jarwind	Posted - 2010.09.08 11:35:00 - [1024] Originally by: yani dumyat Originally by: Gecko O'Bac solution! Give everybody amarr and caldari AF skills and make the fleet fight a 500 man ROCKET FRIGATE GRANDE MELEE! Win This ^^ sign me up :) I like that idea. Love to see it happen. But what would stop people arriving in rocket Leviathans? Not much would but it would be funny seeing one. Lol sign me up for that!
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.09 17:36:00 - [1025] Question for CCP Chronotis. The rocket changes seemed at one point to be tied in to AF 4th bonus, is this still the case? I'm praying for the day I see AF's get fixed and can stop disturbing you and the rest of assembly hall with my bad attempts at rocket/hawk humour. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Illrean	Posted - 2010.09.09 18:38:00 - [1026] Originally by: Alex Jarwind Originally by: yani dumyat Originally by: Gecko O'Bac solution! Give everybody amarr and caldari AF skills and make the fleet fight a 500 man ROCKET FRIGATE GRANDE MELEE! Win This ^^ sign me up :) I like that idea. Love to see it happen. But what would stop people arriving in rocket Leviathans? Not much would but it would be funny seeing one. Lol sign me up for that! Can an unbonused rocket even make it down the length of the Leviathan from Bow to Stern? Might get better results ramming you target me thinks
Alex Jarwind	Posted - 2010.09.09 18:57:00 - [1027] Originally by: Illrean Originally by: Alex Jarwind Originally by: yani dumyat Originally by: Gecko O'Bac solution! Give everybody amarr and caldari AF skills and make the fleet fight a 500 man ROCKET FRIGATE GRANDE MELEE! Win This ^^ sign me up :) I like that idea. Love to see it happen. But what would stop people arriving in rocket Leviathans? Not much would but it would be funny seeing one. Lol sign me up for that! Can an unbonused rocket even make it down the length of the Leviathan from Bow to Stern? Might get better results ramming you target me thinks lol. Aye might be better.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.09 23:50:00 - [1028] Originally by: Illrean Can an unbonused rocket even make it down the length of the Leviathan from Bow to Stern? Might get better results ramming you target me thinks - "Use force, Luke!" - "Right on, my rockets went straight into the vent, BOOM... ohcrap. They ran out of fuel before hitting reactor. We are soooooo dead."
BlahBlahBlah exwife	Posted - 2010.09.10 06:27:00 - [1029] Originally by: Mussaschi Edited by: Mussaschi on 08/09/2010 09:29:15 Originally by: CCP Chronotis oh hey, it's september and guess what we are working on - another week or so and we'll look to hotdrop some changes onto sisi for you if we get green light as it is being used for lag fix testing right now. Dead Horse Running ;) Thanks for this update. So maybe we even see a pos upgrade one day ;) It's not a dead horse as long as it's an unresolved issue.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2010.09.10 16:34:00 - [1030] Originally by: yani dumyat Question for CCP Chronotis. The rocket changes seemed at one point to be tied in to AF 4th bonus, is this still the case? I'm praying for the day I see AF's get fixed and can stop disturbing you and the rest of assembly hall with my bad attempts at rocket/hawk humour. assault frigate balancing is separate to rockets and not on the immediate horizon for release like rockets (aka in the backlog, not assigned to a release but could be pulled in if time allows). The current approach is to release rocket changes, then do assault frigs after that in a subsequent release. The issue is they are scenario specific to where they under perform. One approach we have explored a little is splitting the varieties more to give a more distinct difference in role so one may be remain the armoured gank 'mini-hac' whilst the other might fulfill a heavy tackler role perhaps as one idea to cover the two main scenarios and potential roles. (also we need to rename these and hacs back to frigates and cruisers. Always weird to call them ships!)


yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.10 19:58:00 - [1031] Many thanks for the reply. To follow on I do have another question though will understand if you wish to evade or pass on this one, it's a long post but please forgive me as I am trying to communicate rather than rant. Four years ago I was told by a corp mate to train for cruisers because AF's were broken and the forum seemed to agree, now you are telling me that the changes are going to come in a subsequent release so it's fair to say that in total CCP will take five or six years to fix AF's. Last month there was an outpouring of frustration as people got wound up about the 'excellence' issue but I think there was something missing from that debate, namely the roots of our nerdness and what causes us to rage. In the case of AF's I have built spreadsheets and spent hours analyzing the various ships, this is mainly for my own amusement but if you read the forums you'll understand when I say that this behavior is quite prevalent among the eve community. If a dev posted and asked for analysis of any ship or module in the game I guarantee there would be many pages of player made spreadsheets and graphs to wade through. When something directly affects our game experience eve players have a knee jerk reaction that involves analyzing the situation then arguing about it on the forums, this is as much a part of the game as piracy or running missions. The point I'm trying to make is that by taking between two and six years to implement balance changes CCP are creating vast amounts of frustration among the most vocal members of the eve community, the same people who tend to be dominant characters in their corps and spread gossip among blogs and fan sites. At the start of my career I chose to fly caldari and wanted to specialize in frigates, I've spent four years waiting for the hawk to be fixed and CCP have continuously said things like 'it's in the backlog' so I posted my thoughts and assumed the promised changes would appear within the next year. The question is this - Do you understand why I feel frustrated? PS This is not a dig at you, you did a good job on bombers and I have every confidence you will do a good job on rockets. If I have a problem it's that we don't see you more often :) This post is an attempt to communicate the importance players put on finding solutions to problems and seeing them implemented. From a player perspective it is hard to see how a balancing issue could take more than a month to resolve, without the aid of devhax it took me about 8 hours to rigorously test rockets and create a spreadsheet that could tell me the exact damage reduction for any rocket parameters against any given ship at any orbit distance. That's approximately one days work. I know you do care but five or six years to fix AF's looks suspiciously like you don't give a ****. PPS - An active tanked shield tackle AF neeeeeds 5 mid slots. Please for the love of god put me out my misery _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.09.10 20:44:00 - [1032] Originally by: yani dumyat snip Agreed... Afterall, we ARE playing Spreadsheets online :P
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.10 23:08:00 - [1033] [1027] Well said. Id love if CCP could get just few people (it doesnt really need full team, just few dudes) to play some balance changes game. Im really surprised that tweaking some stuff say by 5% up or down takes years. If it was up to me id tweak it by 5% in the patch and see what happens. Both test server will bring enough data fast (OMG what did you do, overpowered!!!) and even if it doesnt - TQ will. And you can then easily rever the change in hotfix (i doubt changing one number to pre-patch would be hard) or balance in further patch. Small steps but they would be more visible than one "soon to be" fix which happens after 5 years. Back to rockets, waiting for them to hit Sisi so we can discuss them further.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.11 00:54:00 - [1034] [1027] Good point on the bombers. I was really dubious at first when they mentioned torps but they turned out great. ... /Cautious optimism for rockets. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Grenouilles Volantes	Posted - 2010.09.11 02:12:00 - [1035] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Id love if CCP could get just few people (it doesnt really need full team, just few dudes) to play some balance changes game. Im really surprised that tweaking some stuff say by 5% up or down takes years. If it was up to me id tweak it by 5% in the patch and see what happens. Both test server will bring enough data fast (OMG what did you do, overpowered!!!) and even if it doesnt - TQ will. And you can then easily rever the change in hotfix (i doubt changing one number to pre-patch would be hard) or balance in further patch. Small steps but they would be more visible than one "soon to be" fix which happens after 5 years. Indeed, it takes years because of their deployement politic. They only releases few big expansions each year, so needed balancing issues are forgotten by time long before a new expansion is released. CCP never make small patchs unless to correct bugs from the lastest expansion or to correct exploits... We need a 'Small (but regular) balancing patchs' initiative. Signature removed for not being EVE related. Zymurgist
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.09.11 10:17:00 - [1036] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Back to rockets, waiting for them to hit Sisi so we can discuss them further. Just wanted to point out this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1382088&page=2#55 Although it'll take much more time than fixing rockets, when they DO change the way missile works it should also alleviate the issues with the rocket range being chewed by the launch vector.
Don Pellegrino Pod Liberation Authority	Posted - 2010.09.11 14:44:00 - [1037] I think that most people here will agree... The most disappointing thing about CCP is how slow everything is, especially rebalancing. A game's balance has to be fine tuned and making one BIG fix and then forgetting about it for years just doesn't work. It has to be a constant stream of light fixes until a perfect balance is achieved, ala Starcraft 1. Rockets and (to a lesser extent) AF's have been broken for over 5 years. FIVE years, what serious company would even allow that? In 2 months, blasters will have been broken for 2 years, since the speed nerf took away their 90% webs and high speed to reach a target before it can react(how you did not realize even it during your testing is beyond me). /rant over I hope that you guys realize that things like that is the reason why CCP doesn't look like a "serious" and "professional" company to most people. P.S.: I can't wait to test rockets on Sisi.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.11 15:10:00 - [1038] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Originally by: Deva Blackfire Back to rockets, waiting for them to hit Sisi so we can discuss them further. Just wanted to point out this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1382088&page=2#55 Although it'll take much more time than fixing rockets, when they DO change the way missile works it should also alleviate the issues with the rocket range being chewed by the launch vector. This one is interesting. Missile system was one of most borked things in game and i guess it adds to lag too (missiles being physical objects that can be interacted with = lots of stress on server). I do wonder what direction CCP wants to take with it (id prefer my idea of just removing physical object and leaving rockets only as animation, with all calcs being done at the moment of firing). Also you stole post number 1000 :P [1033] Rockets were broken for 2+ years now, starting with nano nerf. Before nano nerf they werent best weapon out there but they did work (mostly thanks to 90% webs).
Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.12 01:50:00 - [1039] You all FAIL! Everything in the game is fine; you people just suck. Check out my resent losses = ) http://proxyyyy.eve-kill.net/?a=home&m=09&y=2010&view=losses So pro \0/
Soldarius Independent Coalition OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.12 06:32:00 - [1040] tbh, I've never really noticed any issues with rockets. Admittedly, I've only ever put them on a Hawk, and never used them against anything particularly fast. But with 4 launchers it chews through frigs like nothing else I've ever flown. The high RoF of the launchers seems to more than make up for the lack of raw damage. Just for the sake of comparison, using base damage against an unmoving target for rockets in the Meta 0 launcher vs Standard missiles in a meta 0 launcher: 25dam x 4 launchers / 4 sec = 25dps vs 75dam x 4 launchers / 15 sec = 20dps. Rocket wins. The problem arises when, as has been pointed out a number of times, speed gets figured in. Either we have to use a web to slow the targeted frigate, or rockets need an explosion speed boost. It really does look like someone left off a leading "1" in the exp vel. ofc, I don't know why CCP didn't simply utilize a hit/miss mechanic like how they actually work, rather than trying to say that a high-energy explosion expands slower than most motor vehicles travel on the high-way. "When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk."

Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.09.12 10:48:00 - [1041] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Originally by: Deva Blackfire Back to rockets, waiting for them to hit Sisi so we can discuss them further. Just wanted to point out this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1382088&page=2#55 Although it'll take much more time than fixing rockets, when they DO change the way missile works it should also alleviate the issues with the rocket range being chewed by the launch vector. This one is interesting. Missile system was one of most borked things in game and i guess it adds to lag too (missiles being physical objects that can be interacted with = lots of stress on server). I do wonder what direction CCP wants to take with it (id prefer my idea of just removing physical object and leaving rockets only as animation, with all calcs being done at the moment of firing). Also you stole post number 1000 :P Yes I did :P I also realized only later :D Anyway... Yeah I agree. While the current system adds to realism (in some ways at least), eve combat is already complex as it is. And like I stated in the dev blog thread (and in the missile mechanic change thread I posted some months ago), it'd allow for better missile graphics which is also a plus. Imho they'll try to use a system similar to the one turrets use but imho they'll try to make the calculations on impact (or at least estimated impact), to keep some of the current way missiles work. Depends if it's feasible or not...
Jyngo Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:24:00 - [1042] Originally by: Soldarius tbh, I've never really noticed any issues with rockets. Admittedly, I've only ever put them on a Hawk, and never used them against anything particularly fast. But with 4 launchers it chews through frigs like nothing else I've ever flown. The high RoF of the launchers seems to more than make up for the lack of raw damage. Just for the sake of comparison, using base damage against an unmoving target for rockets in the Meta 0 launcher vs Standard missiles in a meta 0 launcher: 25dam x 4 launchers / 4 sec = 25dps vs 75dam x 4 launchers / 15 sec = 20dps. Rocket wins. The problem arises when, as has been pointed out a number of times, speed gets figured in. Either we have to use a web to slow the targeted frigate, or rockets need an explosion speed boost. It really does look like someone left off a leading "1" in the exp vel. ofc, I don't know why CCP didn't simply utilize a hit/miss mechanic like how they actually work, rather than trying to say that a high-energy explosion expands slower than most motor vehicles travel on the high-way. Rockets do less raw damage then any other short range frigate weapon in the game.
Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.12 14:06:00 - [1043] Originally by: Jyngo Edited by: Jyngo on 12/09/2010 11:31:37 Edited by: Jyngo on 12/09/2010 11:29:05 Originally by: Soldarius tbh, I've never really noticed any issues with rockets. Admittedly, I've only ever put them on a Hawk, and never used them against anything particularly fast. But with 4 launchers it chews through frigs like nothing else I've ever flown. The high RoF of the launchers seems to more than make up for the lack of raw damage. Just for the sake of comparison, using base damage against an unmoving target for rockets in the Meta 0 launcher vs Standard missiles in a meta 0 launcher: 25dam x 4 launchers / 4 sec = 25dps vs 75dam x 4 launchers / 15 sec = 20dps. Rocket wins. The problem arises when, as has been pointed out a number of times, speed gets figured in. Either we have to use a web to slow the targeted frigate, or rockets need an explosion speed boost. It really does look like someone left off a leading "1" in the exp vel. ofc, I don't know why CCP didn't simply utilize a hit/miss mechanic like how they actually work, rather than trying to say that a high-energy explosion expands slower than most motor vehicles travel on the high-way. Rockets do less DPS than any other short range frigate weapon in the game. Even with a 5% damage bonus. Try fitting 3 rocket launchers to a Vengeance, then fit 3 125mm autocannons (the lowest caliber) to it. (with lvl 5 skills OFC.) So your point is, one weapon system does more damage than another? Go play WOW or something. Notice that no-one seems intrested in flying any other rocket ship, other than the vengeance (Seems like a vengeance boost). -This thread needs to die
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.12 15:26:00 - [1044] Srsly, go away... only thing in this thread what should die is your posting. Quote: tbh, I've never really noticed any issues with rockets. Admittedly, I've only ever put them on a Hawk, and never used them against anything particularly fast. But with 4 launchers it chews through frigs like nothing else I've ever flown. The high RoF of the launchers seems to more than make up for the lack of raw damage. And you should try well... any interceptor out there. Sader/Taranis - you will "chew" thru other ships much faster. Or any other AF than hawk (im not sure if there is any other weaker damage dealer AF than hawk in game... maybe vengeance, tho it can equip guns). And dont forget faction frigs. And kestrel. And rifter. And incursus. Guess you just need to fly something ELSE than hawk and you will actually find that most ships can kill frigs faster than it.
Baneken Gallente School of the Unseen	Posted - 2010.09.12 15:37:00 - [1045] Dunno how to say this but... my Velator out damages a hawk with rockets and with a good margin I might add. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
BlahBlahBlah exwife	Posted - 2010.09.13 07:15:00 - [1046] I fly assault frigs all the time. And kill the hell out of stuff with them. I don't see any problem with assault frigs in general, just with the rocket ones... Are assault frigs broken...I don't think they are. Are they an easy win button for players with little to no knowledge of the game? Nope. So people will complain.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.13 10:53:00 - [1047] Originally by: Baneken Dunno how to say this but... my Velator out damages a hawk with rockets and with a good margin I might add. Look back a few pages, I got a Reaper to outdamage a Hawk. Quote: -This thread needs to die Stfu please. This thread will die when the issue is fixed. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.13 17:47:00 - [1048] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: Baneken Dunno how to say this but... my Velator out damages a hawk with rockets and with a good margin I might add. Look back a few pages, I got a Reaper to outdamage a Hawk. Quote: -This thread needs to die Stfu please. This thread will die when the issue is fixed. Your terrible! Issue fixed = )
Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.13 18:32:00 - [1049] Often when reading these forums, you come across alot of dumbasses, who complain about ships they dont even fly. Then you have the ones that fly the ships they complain about, but dont know how to set them up properly, fly them or figure out what their use is (had a chat with one of these people ingame today). Besed on the suggestions that are most popular in this thread, you may increase rockets ability to do damage to a Ab'ing frig, but you wont make ships using rockets more viable than they are now. Hard to understand? Of course it is, your idiots. Look at the kestrel for a moment; Since no-one is suggesting boosting rockets to the point where they hit, for full damage, everytime. All ships that use rockets will still require a web. If thats the case, then a kestrel will still be no better than a incursus (less so). Why? Because it has PG and CPU issues; the fittings is a major problem with most ships that use rockets. Its the same for every rocket ship except the vengeance (to a lesser extent). The Mal will always under-preform, using rockets (Unless rockets get a base-damage increase). Mal works better with turrents and thats kool. After these changes the hawk will be no better than it is, because it has fitting issues. Here's an example of a hawk with one less high slot and one more mid slot (also having the cpu to fit this would be nice). [Hawk, Hawk] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25 Small Shield Booster Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Small Bay Loading Accelerator II Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Of course i can also go on to prove, with many links to ingame video; double webs not being necessary, (in most cases) when engaging most frigates ingame (Exception; Abing Intercetors and drameil). I would, but i've come to the conclusion, that many of you are not worth that much effort. In conclusion; i suggest you look more closely at the hulls themselves and not so much at the weapon system.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.13 19:02:00 - [1050] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 13/09/2010 19:03:29 Originally by: Proxyyyy your idiots. No, you're. Really. And get out. Rest of your post just shows how stupid and ignorant you are and that you DID NOT read this thread at all. So STFU before you make even bigger fool of yourself than you already are.

Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.09.13 19:30:00 - [1051] That's a pretty stupid post. Originally by: Proxyyyy Besed on the suggestions that are most popular in this thread, you may increase rockets ability to do damage to a Ab'ing frig, but you wont make ships using rockets more viable than they are now. This is a logical contradiction. Quote: Look at the kestrel for a moment; Since no-one is suggesting boosting rockets to the point where they hit, for full damage, everytime. All ships that use rockets will still require a web. If thats the case, then a kestrel will still be no better than a incursus (less so). No. More damage against ABing frigate = more viable. How can this not be?
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.09.13 19:37:00 - [1052] Ahem. We shall now try an hereby untried approach to the "Proxyyy" problem. Let's see. Proxyyy says rockets are fine. Most people (and I do know that "most people" is quite bad to use in such an argument, but see how this continus) disagree. Most importantly, among those people there is that community of people collectively known as "CCP", designers and developers of the game, the only group of people whose opinion is ultimately important. So, to rephrase all this: Proxyyy feels rockets are fine. CCP does not think rockets are fine and is in fact testing for a way to fix them or tune them. Ergo: Proxyyy is wrong and should avoid further posting in this thread on the subject of "rockets are fine". /thread?
Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.13 19:58:00 - [1053] Deva Blackfire even though CCP sensored you, ill respond (maybe the last time i do). I have read this thread from the beginging. The only person that has even came close to having some real insight into the issue, has been Gecko O'Bac. Some others have made sparse comments about fitting issues, but have consistently stayed with the same old "missile velocity" arugments. Your on the missiles velocity bandwagon 24/7. Often you have no-real insight and cont with your linear arguments threw out the entirety of the thread. You can often tell who lacks imagination and putting any effort into anything, because they have no intrest in the Hawk at all; they're to hard to fit compared to a vengeace. Braitai's comments about going under a crusaders tracking and using falloff to his advantage is kinda funny (No offense bro). The crusader will track a mal orbiting at 500m with Pulse and gatling lasers. A Claw can tank as much as a viable malediction and will do even more dps than a malediction with 1 damage-mod at 8k (barrage loaded). I have stated in many threads before; the damage is not so much the issue, but overall viabilty is (more than one contributing factor). The Vexor can out damage the rupture, but the rupture can use its ability to kite to even the playing field. You can also see this in the tempest v mega. So in many previous threads, i hinted to the fact that it seems rocket ships can only be viable in 1 of 2 ways: Tank or speed. Certain ships, like the Hookbill can do both. To the rest of your comments; Am i arrogant? Maybe, but you seem to be too and when i dont know something i tend to admit it (i also submit to others knowledge in the area). Its also possible that im a complete Idiot (I could be ******ed and not know it)! Thank you for all your love-hate...
Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.13 20:07:00 - [1054] Originally by: Gypsio III That's a pretty stupid post. Originally by: Proxyyyy Besed on the suggestions that are most popular in this thread, you may increase rockets ability to do damage to a Ab'ing frig, but you wont make ships using rockets more viable than they are now. This is a logical contradiction. Quote: Look at the kestrel for a moment; Since no-one is suggesting boosting rockets to the point where they hit, for full damage, everytime. All ships that use rockets will still require a web. If thats the case, then a kestrel will still be no better than a incursus (less so). No. More damage against ABing frigate = more viable. How can this not be? Well i should rephrase; it wont make ships using rockets significantly more viable, than they are now. The ship is still a glass canon and would benifit from a increase in PG and CPU. Am i wrong about this Gypsio III?
Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.13 20:20:00 - [1055] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Ahem. We shall now try an hereby untried approach to the "Proxyyy" problem. Let's see. Proxyyy says rockets are fine. Most people (and I do know that "most people" is quite bad to use in such an argument, but see how this continus) disagree. Most importantly, among those people there is that community of people collectively known as "CCP", designers and developers of the game, the only group of people whose opinion is ultimately important. So, to rephrase all this: Proxyyy feels rockets are fine. CCP does not think rockets are fine and is in fact testing for a way to fix them or tune them. Ergo: Proxyyy is wrong and should avoid further posting in this thread on the subject of "rockets are fine". /thread? CCP reacts to the tears of the player base, even if the players are a whining lazy bunch of ******s. Also, eve is an ammusing social experiment; New idea's are frowned upon, those who disagree are laughed at, and not to mention, the herd like behavior. I often enjoy just posting on these forums just to see how the clowns react (sometimes im even serious). So! Would you fly a kestrel if it could do that, full 100dps, versus a merlin or rifter? or would you rather jump in a punisher, incursus, vigil or tristan?
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.13 22:40:00 - [1056] Considering PROPERLY flown kestrel obliterates most other frigs except AB tanking ones? Sure i would. And yeh, that kestrel will omgwtfkill incursus, vigil or tristan. Not 100% sure about punisher (as gatlings can reach quite far), but AC punisher is killable. Also sure i would fly malediction over any other ceptor if it actually could damage AB ceptors. Same goes for Heretic vs Sabre. Duhhh dun. Also you can check post [962] for full list of rocket issues. No its not only explo velocity. Ill just copy it for you: Quote: List of issues with rockets (complete i think): - inability to deal decent damage to small targets (especially ABing frigs) without using 1+ (2+ for Ab ships) webs or multiple painters which is impossible to put on one frig --> explo velocity and DamageReductionFactor issue - low damage (DPS) values. Bonused rocket launchers (+25% damage) are outclassed even by lowest tier autocannons and lasers - small clip capacity. Increase it to 80 (?) as rockets already lose circa 10% dps from reloads alone. Reducing ROF and upping damage (so DPS stays the same) would also help the issue a bit. Yet another way: reduce size of rockets. - short range due to how rocket is fired from ship (in front of) and due to rocket being "dumb" and not following target for around a second after a launch (which is around 1/3 of its total flight time = loses 1/3 of its range before it even starts to track target) - inability to hit non-webbed MWD frigs due to low velocity (3-4km/s wheras heavy missiles/cruises get upwards to 8km/s... its funny when heavy missile can catch up to ceptor and frig vs frig weapon cant) - "missile agility" issue. Old test of mine: rockets change dirtection (while following target) each second. This means that target which turns fast will not be hit at all (they have like 2 direction changes and are gone). Tested on close range orbit ceptor (think he was 500m orbit, landed at 3,5km from me doing around 2km/s) - with skills 5/5/dictors 4 (heretic, thus additional 40% to rocket velocity) he was hit 3 times out of around 100 rockets fired. - fitting issues of t2 rocket launchers on some ships. Example: heretic. Fitting 6 rocket launchers eats most of CPU ship has to offer. Any decent anti-frig setup (similiar to sabre: extender, web, damage mod, bubble blower, guns/rockets) will hit the CPU wall (and grid wall soon after) wheras sabre or catcher has no big issues fitting it all. As you can see damage AND fitting issues were ALSO taken into an account. We are quite smart kids here and after flying ship (say me in heretic) for circa... 4 years now? (pretty much since it was added to game) or malediction since rocket changes im quite good with spotting the issues that go beyond usual "need moar dps" problem. But the fact is: with ONLY explo velocity (aka: hits faster targets better) change it would mean i could at least use heretic again and kill normal non-ab ceptors and not die in hilarious way to taranises or saders (yay 3 mids = mwd + point + web, loltank anyone?).
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.09.13 23:09:00 - [1057] Originally by: Proxyyyy The only person that has even came close to having some real insight into the issue, has been Gecko O'Bac. I swear I raised an eyebrow in RL reading this. Shows how much you are wrong. I may have a close understanding of the problems of missiles on the whole but surely not so much about rockets. I've used rockets the entirety of ONE (1) time in my whole eve life. I'm a caldari user, mainly, and I've got rocket launchers skilled at lvl 1. Yeah. Also, commenting on the other reply: I've played more mmogs than you probably even KNOW and let me assure you that CCP does NOT listen to whiners. CCP does listen to well proposed ideas and requests for fixes which have basis in reality. Otherwise by now salvaging would give the criminal flag, AFK cloaking would be impossible, suicide ganking would be impossible and a list of other whiny features they have repeatedly ignored (or straight on answered that they are good as they are) over the years. There are other development houses which follow general whines much more than CCP. The list is too long for me to bother.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.09.14 00:01:00 - [1058] Originally by: Proxyyyy Well i should rephrase; it wont make ships using rockets significantly more viable, than they are now. The Kestrel is still a glass canon and would benifit from a increase in PG and CPU. Am i wrong about this Gypsio III? This is an inane comment. The entire point of PG and CPU is to limit a ship's fitting options and capabilities. What ship would not benefit from more CPU and PG...? Ironically though, a rocket Kestrel does not have major PG and CPU issues, and would not benefit significantly from increases. Instead, it would benefit more from a fourth medslot (not likely to happen!) or fixing rockets' performance against frigates.
Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.14 00:03:00 - [1059] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Originally by: Proxyyyy The only person that has even came close to having some real insight into the issue, has been Gecko O'Bac. I swear I raised an eyebrow in RL reading this. Shows how much you are wrong. I may have a close understanding of the problems of missiles on the whole but surely not so much about rockets. I've used rockets the entirety of ONE (1) time in my whole eve life. I'm a caldari user, mainly, and I've got rocket launchers skilled at lvl 1. Yeah. Also, commenting on the other reply: I've played more mmogs than you probably even KNOW and let me assure you that CCP does NOT listen to whiners. CCP does listen to well proposed ideas and requests for fixes which have basis in reality. Otherwise by now salvaging would give the criminal flag, AFK cloaking would be impossible, suicide ganking would be impossible and a list of other whiny features they have repeatedly ignored (or straight on answered that they are good as they are) over the years. There are other development houses which follow general whines much more than CCP. The list is too long for me to bother. So, because i said you are teh only person who came even close to having some insight into these issues im wrong? Ok! So, were having a debate on whether CCP reacts based on the intrest of its customers? Ok! So your admitting to being in here whining about something you dont even use or care to use?Intresting. Grats on playing the other lame MMO's about brown underwear and tight pants. Im not even going to argue with you about CCP listing to its whining customers, because thats a fact! The rest of your reply was meh! I suggest ignoring me and going back to some decent posting about things you know nothing about (Apparently); because its funny that it takes someone who doesnt even fly these ships to have come so close to the real issue...
Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.14 00:12:00 - [1060] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Proxyyyy Well i should rephrase; it wont make ships using rockets significantly more viable, than they are now. The Kestrel is still a glass canon and would benifit from a increase in PG and CPU. Am i wrong about this Gypsio III? This is an inane comment. The entire point of PG and CPU is to limit a ship's fitting options and capabilities. What ship would not benefit from more CPU and PG...? Ironically though, a rocket Kestrel does not have major PG and CPU issues, and would not benefit significantly from increases. Instead, it would benefit more from a fourth medslot (not likely to happen!) or fixing rockets' performance against frigates. \0/ Yeah your right! A kestrel would benifit more from a extra midslot than a increase in PG and CPU. I was trying to make a correlation between more PG/CPU, for more tank (armor plate i suppose), but failed! You made the point better sir; another mid-slot would enable you to fit a MSE. The problem is'nt rockets alone, but the major problem are the ships/hulls (Dont know if i got that point cross in my other post).

Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.14 00:50:00 - [1061] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Considering PROPERLY flown kestrel obliterates most other frigs except AB tanking ones? Sure i would. And yeh, that kestrel will omgwtfkill incursus, vigil or tristan. Not 100% sure about punisher (as gatlings can reach quite far), but AC punisher is killable. Also sure i would fly malediction over any other ceptor if it actually could damage AB ceptors. Same goes for Heretic vs Sabre. Duhhh dun. Also you can check post [962] for full list of rocket issues. No its not only explo velocity. Ill just copy it for you: Quote: List of issues with rockets (complete i think): - inability to deal decent damage to small targets (especially ABing frigs) without using 1+ (2+ for Ab ships) webs or multiple painters which is impossible to put on one frig --> explo velocity and DamageReductionFactor issue - low damage (DPS) values. Bonused rocket launchers (+25% damage) are outclassed even by lowest tier autocannons and lasers - small clip capacity. Increase it to 80 (?) as rockets already lose circa 10% dps from reloads alone. Reducing ROF and upping damage (so DPS stays the same) would also help the issue a bit. Yet another way: reduce size of rockets. - short range due to how rocket is fired from ship (in front of) and due to rocket being "dumb" and not following target for around a second after a launch (which is around 1/3 of its total flight time = loses 1/3 of its range before it even starts to track target) - inability to hit non-webbed MWD frigs due to low velocity (3-4km/s wheras heavy missiles/cruises get upwards to 8km/s... its funny when heavy missile can catch up to ceptor and frig vs frig weapon cant) - "missile agility" issue. Old test of mine: rockets change dirtection (while following target) each second. This means that target which turns fast will not be hit at all (they have like 2 direction changes and are gone). Tested on close range orbit ceptor (think he was 500m orbit, landed at 3,5km from me doing around 2km/s) - with skills 5/5/dictors 4 (heretic, thus additional 40% to rocket velocity) he was hit 3 times out of around 100 rockets fired. - fitting issues of t2 rocket launchers on some ships. Example: heretic. Fitting 6 rocket launchers eats most of CPU ship has to offer. Any decent anti-frig setup (similiar to sabre: extender, web, damage mod, bubble blower, guns/rockets) will hit the CPU wall (and grid wall soon after) wheras sabre or catcher has no big issues fitting it all. As you can see damage AND fitting issues were ALSO taken into an account. We are quite smart kids here and after flying ship (say me in heretic) for circa... 4 years now? (pretty much since it was added to game) or malediction since rocket changes im quite good with spotting the issues that go beyond usual "need moar dps" problem. But the fact is: with ONLY explo velocity (aka: hits faster targets better) change it would mean i could at least use heretic again and kill normal non-ab ceptors and not die in hilarious way to taranises or saders (yay 3 mids = mwd + point + web, loltank anyone?). Your list of rocket issues is boring and a waste of my time. you've only proven my point! Out of all the discussions surrounding these ships; changes to the hull themselves, have been largerly overlooked or understated (as i've said in previous post). The Heretic does have CPU issues that will not be affected by these changes; based on what has already been suggested, which is focused on the ammuntion. You"ve flown the heretic for four years? Link your setups please. I am a fan of the Heretic and believe it to be very underrated along with the flycatcher. I for one, have no issues setting up these ships and enjoy them both! Ha ha ha "PROPERLY flown kestrel obliterates most other frigs except AB tanking ones" is pretty funny. You included the incursus and even the Tristan in that weird dream of yours. I dont even want to waste my time arguing with you about frigates. Long before the speed changes, rockets were said to be broken. How can that be possible? Rockets must have been doing close to full damage. I flew the kestrel and other ships that used rockets before these changes and they seemed fine to me. Many made the argument that "the ships are glass" and "why not fly the ishkur or jaguar?" etc. At this time i was already blowing up interceptors with No-tank in kestrels and not being able to take down the best t1 frigates (unless bad setup and somehow bad piloting). So to me, you'd just be going back to that time. The same arguments about "Ishkurs and jaguars", will be made; except the mal would have to deal with the fact, all interceptors can now tank and all the top t1 frigates are still better than the kestrel.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.14 01:03:00 - [1062] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 14/09/2010 01:06:07 Im done talking with you. You are just a troll, so i CBA to waste my time on you. Do some (in your case a lot) research, then perhaps come back. But id prefer if you kept your posting to CAOD or other well informed places. EOT from my side. Also just a small hint: if 5 people tell you that you are clueless its very possible they are right and you arent. In this case its sure you arent the one who is correct.
Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.14 01:42:00 - [1063] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 14/09/2010 01:06:07 Im done talking with you. You are just a troll, so i CBA to waste my time on you. Do some (in your case a lot) research, then perhaps come back. But id prefer if you kept your posting to CAOD or other well informed places. EOT from my side. Also just a small hint: if 5 people tell you that you are clueless its very possible they are right and you arent. In this case its sure you arent the one who is correct. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 14/09/2010 01:06:07 Im done talking with you. You are just a troll, so i CBA to waste my time on you. Do some (in your case a lot) research, then perhaps come back. But id prefer if you kept your posting to CAOD or other well informed places. EOT from my side. Also just a small hint: if 5 people tell you that you are clueless its very possible they are right and you arent. In this case its sure you arent the one who is correct. OMG Deva Blackfire you dont have a clue! Heh! I dont need the forums to, accept the fact that im right about anything. I play the game and prove my point everytime i do. This is just another whining thread about how a weapon systems is not perfect. Which often leads to them forgeting (or never knew in the first place), both the weapon system and hull, culminates to a significant increase in viablity (or any viabilty at all). Whats funny is, you believe i was having a conversation with you. Your not important, nothing you've said has in anyway improve my setups, given new insight, or changed my opinions and general knowledge about rockets (You dont, ever, say anything most pilots dont already know). The only ship that uses rocekts im having difficulty with, is the hawk and it wont change that much, with the preposed changes (Unless rockets become wtf overpowered). So GTF0! -joker
Jyngo Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.09.14 02:17:00 - [1064] Originally by: Proxyyyy The Heretic does have CPU issues that will not be affected by these changes; based on what has already been suggested, which is focused on the ammuntion. Originally by: proxyyyy I am a fan of the Heretic and believe it to be very underrated along with the flycatcher. I for one, have no issues setting up these ships and enjoy them both! You keep contradicting yourself. Either you suck at expressing your points or you simply havent thought your arguments through.
Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.14 02:58:00 - [1065] Originally by: Jyngo Originally by: Proxyyyy The Heretic does have CPU issues that will not be affected by these changes; based on what has already been suggested, which is focused on the ammuntion. Originally by: proxyyyy I am a fan of the Heretic and believe it to be very underrated along with the flycatcher. I for one, have no issues setting up these ships and enjoy them both! You keep contradicting yourself. Either you suck at expressing your points or you simply havent thought your arguments through. I do suck at expressing my points and i dont realy put to much effort into my arguments. Rephrase; The Heretic has Cpu issues when fitting a diction launcher and all 6 rocket launchers. I've found ways to get around these issues but, for most others it seems, theyre not able to. Here are 2 flycather and heretic setups taht work! Also, i have solo version that are faction pimped, but are similar to these. [Flycatcher, Flycatcher] Damage Control II Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Small C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Interdiction Sphere Launcher I, Warp Disrupt Probe Small Bay Loading Accelerator I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I [Heretic, Heretic_Armor] 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Interdiction Sphere Launcher I, Warp Disrupt Probe Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I EXAMPLES; they have turrent hardpoints; so i use them. I also use the turrent hardpoints on my hawk.
Jyngo Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.09.14 03:13:00 - [1066] Originally by: Proxyyyy EXAMPLES; they have turrent hardpoints; so i use them. I also use the turrent hardpoints on my hawk. Proxxxy uses as many turrets as he can on ships that give a missile bonus! Clearly there is not a single issue with rockets as is. We can end this thread guys. Btw why dont you just use a Sabre? Train it up if you havent already and save yourself some pain.

CCP Jericho	Posted - 2010.09.14 03:18:00 - [1067] Inappropriate post removed.

Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.14 04:40:00 - [1068] Originally by: Jyngo Originally by: Proxyyyy EXAMPLES; they have turrent hardpoints; so i use them. I also use the turrent hardpoints on my hawk. Proxxxy uses as many turrets as he can on ships that give a missile bonus! Clearly there is not a single issue with rockets as is. We can end this thread guys. Btw why dont you just use a Sabre? Train it up if you havent already and save yourself some pain. I dont use the sabre cause its not koolz. I cant use many rockets on the heretic because of Fitting issues ******. Hence my previous arugments genius. A rocket boost, without looking at the hulls themselves is a waste of time. CCP might as well, ban me from the forums, because im not gunna stop untill i completely kill this thread! -CCP stop censoring me
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.09.14 05:11:00 - [1069] Originally by: Proxyyyy Braitai's comments about going under a crusaders tracking and using falloff to his advantage is kinda funny (No offense bro). The crusader will track a mal orbiting at 500m with Pulse and gatling lasers. A Claw can tank as much as a viable malediction and will do even more dps than a malediction with 1 damage-mod at 8k (barrage loaded). It will track - sort of - it'll do massively reduced damage though. I haven't lost to any MWD fit 'saders since I figured out that a close orbit cuts into their dps enough for me to tank. A Claw has a better shot at killing me, but it hasn't happened yet. This isn't theory crafting for me - this is all back up by practical experience. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.14 05:27:00 - [1070] Originally by: Braitai Originally by: Proxyyyy Braitai's comments about going under a crusaders tracking and using falloff to his advantage is kinda funny (No offense bro). The crusader will track a mal orbiting at 500m with Pulse and gatling lasers. A Claw can tank as much as a viable malediction and will do even more dps than a malediction with 1 damage-mod at 8k (barrage loaded). It will track - sort of - it'll do massively reduced damage though. I haven't lost to any MWD fit 'saders since I figured out that a close orbit cuts into their dps enough for me to tank. A Claw has a better shot at killing me, but it hasn't happened yet. This isn't theory crafting for me - this is all back up by practical experience. Makes sense. Keep on doing your thang broski!

van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc	Posted - 2010.09.14 07:59:00 - [1071] Originally by: Proxyyyy Originally by: Jyngo Originally by: Proxyyyy EXAMPLES; they have turrent hardpoints; so i use them. I also use the turrent hardpoints on my hawk. Proxxxy uses as many turrets as he can on ships that give a missile bonus! Clearly there is not a single issue with rockets as is. We can end this thread guys. Btw why dont you just use a Sabre? Train it up if you havent already and save yourself some pain. I dont use the sabre cause its not koolz. I cant use many rockets on the heretic because of Fitting issues ******. Hence my previous arugments genius. A rocket boost, without looking at the hulls themselves is a waste of time. CCP might as well, ban me from the forums, because im not gunna stop untill i completely kill this thread! -CCP stop censoring me But why are you fitting AutoCannons to the Flycatcher? There is no fitting issues there, you can easily fit all available missile slots, but you choose not to.
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.09.14 08:15:00 - [1072] Originally by: Proxyyyy Makes sense. Keep on doing your thang broski! Just in case people get the idea that I'm not in agreement with the thread, despite my successes with a rocket 'diction I still think that rockets are broken. The reduction in DPS they are hit with make them too situational. These days I usually undock with AC's instead of rockets unless I'm specifically going out to hunt solo ceptors/MWD frigates. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Jyngo Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.09.14 09:29:00 - [1073] Originally by: Proxyyyy Originally by: Jyngo Originally by: Proxyyyy EXAMPLES; they have turrent hardpoints; so i use them. I also use the turrent hardpoints on my hawk. Proxxxy uses as many turrets as he can on ships that give a missile bonus! Clearly there is not a single issue with rockets as is. We can end this thread guys. Btw why dont you just use a Sabre? Train it up if you havent already and save yourself some pain. I dont use the sabre cause its not koolz. I cant use many rockets on the heretic because of Fitting issues ******. Hence my previous arugments genius. A rocket boost, without looking at the hulls themselves is a waste of time. CCP might as well, ban me from the forums, because im not gunna stop untill i completely kill this thread! -CCP stop censoring me Because it's impossible for CCP to tweak the CPU and grid requirements for rocket launchers right? The only way to fix the fitting issues of any module is to change the ships they're used on obviously. Another example of: Proxyyy Logic (TM)
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.14 12:20:00 - [1074] Originally by: Proxyyyy I have read this thread from the beginging. The only person that has even came close to having some real insight into the issue, has been Gecko O'Bac. Some others have made sparse comments about fitting issues, but have consistently stayed with the same old "missile velocity" arugments. Your on the missiles velocity bandwagon 24/7. Often you have no-real insight and cont with your linear arguments threw out the entirety of the thread. You can often tell who lacks imagination and putting any effort into anything, because they have no intrest in the Hawk at all; they're to hard to fit compared to a vengeace. I'm not sure what thread you were reading but it wasn't this one. Both the kestrel and hawk have been mentioned quite a number of times and I've posted so often in AF threads about the hawk needing 5 mids that the following comment should need no explanation: Originally by: yani dumyat PPS - An active tanked shield tackle AF neeeeeds 5 mid slots. Please for the love of god put me out my misery That was posted in this thread only a page ago and there has been considerable discussion of the fitting requirements for both rockets and light missiles in regards to how hard they are to fit on the kestrel and other ships. When I posted my spreadsheet of possible rocket changes I included an analysis of how the changes might affect various hulls. Ships such as the flycatcher, malediction, crow and vengeance could become overpowered if you boost rockets without any regard for its effect on various hulls. There was also a lengthy discussion about the rocket malediction and its ability to use an enemies tracking and falloff against them. In terms of the kestrel a number of people, Duchess Starbuckington in particular, have pointed out that we should "give the middle finger to the tier system". If you look at the other T1 missile frigates you'll see that the kestrel has fairly generous fittings for its ship class, if you want to increase fittings on the kestrel then you will also need to boost the other missile frigs. Many have forgotten that the inquisitor even exists. Gypsio described your wish to see greater fittings on the kestrel as an "inane comment" and then stated that it needed an extra mid slot, I took this as a direct reference to the tier system yet you seemed surprised by Gypsio's comment. Perhaps if you'd understood this thread you'd have less need to make such a fool of yourself. In short it's the archaic tier system that needs to be reworked however I shudder to think how long CCP might take over such a large rebalancing task. In the mean time I will be happy to settle for increased rocket DPS so the kestrel can have a bit more cannon to go with its glass. I'd agree with one thing you've said: Originally by: Proxyyyy damage is not so much the issue, but overall viabilty is (more than one contributing factor) The problem is that rocket ships can not be altered in isolation. To alter the kestrel you must rebalance T1 frigs and there have been various threads calling for CCP to investigate the balance of AF and destroyer class ships. Without boosting rockets it will not be possible to balance AF's, to demonstrate this point I will return to the hawk. Af's can be roughly split in to 2 categories: Tackle - 7 mid/low slots, 3 main weapon hard points, 1 utility high, approx 150 dps DPS - 6 mid/low slots, 4 main weapon hard points, 1 utility high, approx 250 dps The hawk has the 5/4/2 slot layout of a DPS AF yet struggles to reach 150 dps. Should rockets be boosted and AF's given a 4th bonus then the hawk could potentially do over 200 dps, under such circumstances giving it 5 midslots could result in the ship becoming overpowered. Until we see what CCP do with rockets it will not be possible to know how the hull should be rebalanced. In short you are correct to say we need to look at the hulls but seem to be ignorant of how a rocket boost is a necessary step towards that goal. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.14 15:15:00 - [1075] yani dumyat im going to assume your not dense and ill respond. I've already stated that some have made passing suggestion about the need for slot rearrangement (many times in previous threads). So my point is to focuse more on that area. Is that so hard to understand? "But why are you fitting AutoCannons to the Flycatcher? There is no fitting issues there, you can easily fit all available missile slots, but you choose not to." van Uber the solo version uses all rockets. I dont need to go into my commitment to using rockets, because its well known. If im able to increase the preformance by including another weapon system, i will. My first choice was lasers, instead of ac's, but ran into grid issues; Also, their is a shield Heretic version (For shield gangs). "Because it's impossible for CCP to tweak the CPU and grid requirements for rocket launchers right? The only way to fix the fitting issues of any module is to change the ships they're used on obviously. Another example of: Proxyyy Logic (TM)" Jyngo, the focus is on rockets to a large extent; the only major suggestions (what is most popular) regarding rocket launchers is about their charge capacity (the constant reloading is freaking annoying). Dumbasses like you are on the forums complaining about these ships. Im Out flying and coming up with viable ways to use them. Also, your comments are p ******ed, seems like you have'nt read the thread your defending genius ("correct rocket explosion speed")? back to yani dumyat: you can look back on many threads where i have stated a need for another midslot on the hawk, kestrel and other ships that use rockets. It took 34 pages of prattle for most of you to even consider hulls as an issue (yet its still not the major issue in your disscusions). I figured most of that out 9 months ago. I dont agree about the tier system, but thats another disscussion. I have already had many disscusions ingame about rockets and have made revised formulas (dont do this often, because it lame) to how it would increase its viabilty, but ran into other issues. It appread thier was a broader picture, which i later came to understand. "To alter the kestrel you must rebalance T1 frigs and there have been various threads calling for CCP to investigate the balance of AF and destroyer class ships" The other t1 frigates bonused to missiles are not as good as the kestrel to begin with. Why i suggested an increase to PG and CPU instead of giving the kestrel another slot, was partly due to the other t1 ships bonused to missiles. In anycase Gyp didnt say anything that i havent said in many post before (shows you have no clue); so no, it was not surprising. I made a argument and he made an even better one (of course you would have to do the same for all missile bonused frigates and would come under my hull changes argument). Also, dont boast yourself; your little passsing statements where not very indepth, and focused mainly on rockets abiltiy to do damage (not so much fitting requirements or slot arrangement). Many times i've referred to the general consesus in this thread, and not boosting rockets to where they're overpowered is one of them. By the way, yani dumyat; heres a link to my unedited comments on eve search; I make refrences to what i think about this thread; the forums in general and most people in eve. make a fool of myself? So basicaly im suppose to care about what most of you tools think? The forums is just my playground; a place where i get some amusement... http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1005679/page/36 -CCP stop censoring me
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.09.14 16:13:00 - [1076] I'm having difficulty following your line of argument, Proxy. I think it boils down to "the best way to fix rocket-using ships is to fiddle with their fittings and slot layouts, rather than changing rockets". Is this right?
Zach Donnell Ghost-Busters	Posted - 2010.09.14 16:18:00 - [1077] CCP, any better idea when we will see some rocket changes on the test server? I am excited :) ------------------------------------------------- "Bustin' makes me feel good!"
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.14 16:28:00 - [1078] Originally by: Zach Donnell CCP, any better idea when we will see some rocket changes on the test server? I am excited :) Originally by: CCP Chronotis another week or so and we'll look to hotdrop some changes onto sisi for you if we get green light as it is being used for lag fix testing right now. Posted 09.07. So i guess "soon".
Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.14 17:15:00 - [1079] Edited by: Proxyyyy on 14/09/2010 17:18:20 Originally by: Gypsio III I'm having difficulty following your line of argument, Proxy. I think it boils down to "the best way to fix rocket-using ships is to fiddle with their fittings and slot layouts, rather than changing rockets". Is this right? No; focusing on issue alone (rockets/ammution), will not lead to any major inprovements. Infact: -Slot arrangement -Cpu -Powergrid These issues are more important than the current arguments for a straight boost to rockets. Those 3 issues would bring significant improvments; more so than the current arguments made for rockets. Based on the current consensus, i dont believe the current arguments would be enough (then this would have been a waste of time). 30% of the issues with these ships are realated to rockets and the rest to what i previously stated (you can tell that just by flying and fitting the ships). When i looked at the raw numbers the rest of it was'nt apparent, and i suggested to myself, they should do 100% of their damage, but others disagreed and made good arguments why they should'nt. So, i agreed; but then thier was suggestions to "boosting damage" , to the point where; would'nt a straight boost to damage accomplish the same thing as doing 100% of their current damage? So, it was clear the issue was difficult. No matter how long the discussion, and number crunching; it always ended with it being to over-powered or to under-powered. So i took a diffrent approach in-game and focused on fittings. Of course most these ships work, with some exceptions (even if it ment using other weapon systems). I can honestly say im the progenitor of most of the best setups for these ships; Hookbill, Flycatcher, Heretic, Hawk, Kestrel, Vengeance, Malediction, Manticore,Crow many that have'nt been seen by most yet(EPEEN). To over-powered or to under-powered = you cant fix that issue, without looking at the ships themselves So im saying, focus on the area that would bring the most change, without making these ships to over-powered or to under-powered (rockets is one of these issues, but not the most important)...
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.14 18:03:00 - [1080] Proxyyyy, as I'm sure you're aware the title of this thread is 'correct rocket explosion speed', it's hardly surprising that we have focused on rockets and their various parameters. Consider for a moment CCP's history in regard to balance issues, the time between a problem arising and CCP fixing it is usually 2 or more years. When they do fix stuff it tends to be done in categories, ie they will alter projectiles, black ops, ECM or some other discrete category. If you expect CCP to go through every single hull that uses rockets and rebalance them around the need for a web then you are living in ga ga land. I'd love to see changes like an extra mid on the hawk and kestrel but you're as well asking for CCP to introduce levitating bears and pink space mushrooms, it's just not going to happen. Originally by: Proxyyyy To over-powered or to under-powered = you cant fix that issue, without looking at the ships themselves I'd agree with this statement 100% but would also point out that the same can be said for many ships in the game, not just the ones that use rockets. What makes you think CCP will suddenly start giving a **** just because you've stated the blatantly obvious fact that a blanket boost to rockets will not resolve balance issues related to the hulls? To be honest I'm very happy to see rockets getting some love and am grateful to the devs for their work. The fact remains however that people have been suggesting changes to both the hawk and the tier system for many years, your arrogance will be ignored in the same way as every one else who has posted on this matter. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.

Proxyyyy Caldari Chaotic Tranquility	Posted - 2010.09.14 18:49:00 - [1081] yani dumyat i dont think CCP will be fixing the real issue. Also, the focus is on rockets because not many know of the limitations of the hulls (that is not general knowlegde, but rocket explosion velocity is). Even the ones that relise this, still think rockets are the major issue (read stuff, said about almost daily). I hear the contant chat about having to use double webs and thier so late and wrong. If CCP is not going to fix the real issue, then this thread was a waste of time; hence why i said it was dead. No new arguments are being made and its a endless cycle of agreeing ans arguing about the same thing, over and over again (pretty boring). If their going to half-ass this; then their time can be best spent addressing problems, they can fix. Im not in some weird happy dream land(Im high on something though); I am however rude and arrogant. So one of my plans was to destroy this thread; i also wanted to get banned, but failed at that. Ill try harder next time (kool people get banned from the forums)...
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.14 18:57:00 - [1082] God complex, tourette syndrome, down syndrome, all in one person. You should get yourself checked, you might become some medicine miracle. Also ****ting on the thread you dont like belongs to CAOD not here. But anyways thanks for admitting for thing i stated at the start: you were just trolling "to get thread closed". FYI: this thread will not die so buh bye. As for "i dont care what other people post". Oh you do. A lot. Posting is caring and it seems you care a lot.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.14 19:34:00 - [1083] Ha ha good post Deva, quoting this bit for truth. Originally by: Deva Blackfire As for "i dont care what other people post". Oh you do. A lot. Posting is caring and it seems you care a lot. Also quoting this because it made me lol very hard: Originally by: Proxyyyy i also wanted to get banned, but failed at that. A failed internet hard man, that's pure comedy gold An irony about you trying to destroy this thread is how you've perpetuated the "cycle of agreeing and arguing about the same thing, over and over again." For those of us who enjoy the insults and name calling it has also added some pleasant relief from the drudgery of this thread. Another irony of your attempted thread destruction is that you have correctly identified some hull balance issues, perhaps it will inspire CCP Chronotis to add a mid slot to the hawk rather than forcing us to wait for AF balancing. (I can dream). I wish you all the best in making your dreams of a forum ban come true. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.

CCP Adida C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.14 19:39:00 - [1084] removed a rant post from the thread Adida Community Rep CCP Hf, EVE Online

Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.14 19:44:00 - [1085] Funnily enough adding 1 mid to ALL rocket boats would prolly fix most of the velocity issues (dualweb) but i dont see this as proper balancing/fixing of an issue. It would fix rockets but possibly make even nastier non-rocket-using-rocket-ships setups (4 mid vengeance? think of possibilities if you run with ACs, same for other boats). Fixing rocket themselves is good step, which should be followed by further rebalancing of ships themselves. AFs (well they waited for too long anyways), tier system, prolly some CPu/grid shifts. But its nothing that wasnt said in this topic before. I think we already managed to cover every aspect of "how to make rocket boats better" approach. Now, we just need to wait to see what lands on Sisi and then we can talk about balancing boats against each other.

CCP Adida C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.14 20:05:00 - [1086] Removed a post that had previously been deleted from another post. Adida Community Rep CCP Hf, EVE Online

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.14 23:24:00 - [1087] Originally by: CCP Adida Removed a post that had previously been deleted from another post. <3 _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc	Posted - 2010.09.15 07:02:00 - [1088] Originally by: Proxyyyy van Uber the solo version uses all rockets. I dont need to go into my commitment to using rockets, because its well known. If im able to increase the preformance by including another weapon system, i will. My first choice was lasers, instead of ac's, but ran into grid issues; Also, their is a shield Heretic version (For shield gangs). So adding another weapon system will increase the performance of the Flycatcher. Now is the same true for a Sabre? If not, why should a racial ship be able to increase performance with unbonused or even non racial weapon systems when others in the same class doesn't?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.09.15 08:18:00 - [1089] Originally by: Proxyyyy No; focusing on issue alone (rockets/ammution), will not lead to any major inprovements. Infact: -Slot arrangement -Cpu -Powergrid These issues are more important than the current arguments for a straight boost to rockets. Those 3 issues would bring significant improvments; more so than the current arguments made for rockets. In general, rocket ships do not have crippling problems with PG and CPU. You've already agreed with this; why are you proposing it again? Rocket ships' fitting problems only really appear when you try to fit SMLs, but that's a different issue. Slots. Do you mean adding slots, or changing slot layouts? Adding slots means scrapping the tier system and a complete rework of half the ships in the game. As much as I hate the tier system, this isn't going to happen. The alternative is to give all rocket ships an extra medslot but remove a highslot or lowslot, so they can fit their extra web. Now this idea has a horrible flaw, and I think Deva or someone has already explained why. The ability to fit an extra web gives a frigate a much greater ability to control range. A rocket frigate with scrambler and two webs doesn't really want to fit rockets at all, it wants to fit ACs or neutrons because they do much more damage, and the range control offered by dual web means that it has a good chance of being able to apply it. So this doesn't fix rockets. Secondly, it opens balance problems because it's such a binary solution - either you give the ship an extra medslot, reducing the target's speed by ~55%, or you don't - there's no halfway house for fine-tuning balance. Thirdly, it doesn't fix one of the main problems with rockets currently - the utter reliance on webs to apply damage, which not only leads to predictable fits and a lack of flexibility, but leads to the crazy situation in which a 60% web gives about four times the damage increase than a BCS II does (~80% more DPS for the web compared to 20%, for rockets hitting a manoeuvring Rifter), while also offering range control and taking almost half the CPU of a BCS! "Bring significant improvements". Yes, a Kestrel with, fixed rockets, four medslots and lots more CPU and PG would be more powerful then one simply with fixed rockets. Too powerful, in fact. So let's just fix rockets. Things that can be changed are raw damage, explosion velocity and Damage Reduction Factor (DRF). Rocket base damage isn't terrible, considering their range - a boost of ~10% may be necessary to stop people fitting ACs instead though. The main problem is with application of damage to ABing target, which can be influenced by increasing explosion velocity or by reducing DRF. I'd favour a DRF reduction here, although and explosion velocity increase may also be necessary because it's currently just so low. A lower DRF means that ABing ships can still get a decent speed tank against rockets, but it's not so effective as now. It will also take us away from the current insane situation of a web having the DPS-increasing effect of an 80% BCS. There's also sufficient scope to fine-tune the new DRF factor to get the desired balance.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.15 09:50:00 - [1090] On the subject of webs I hope the rocket fix will negate the need for dual webs on any normal fit, most rocket ships can already fit a single web. Assuming that a speed mod and point are mandatory: 3 launchers+: (Primary weapon) Hawk - can fit a web but only by fitting a passive tank or running active without a cap booster. Vengeance - can fit a web Malediction - can fit a web Crow - can fit a web when plate fit Kestrel - can fit a web when plate fit Breacher - can not fit a web Inquisitor - can not fit a web Flycatcher - can fit a web Heretic - can fit a web Worm - can fit a web Caldari Navy Hookbill - can fit a web Condor - can not fit a web Split weapons (half and half rockets/guns) Merlin - can fit a web Tristan - can fit a web Eris - can not fit a web Of the four ships that can't fit a web three are victims of the tier system and the fourth is the eris which no one flies either but for different reasons. Plate fitting a kestrel has problems because it's slow as sin and much better off with an MSE, still best of the T1 missile frigs (though that's not saying much). Hawk.....for the sake of your sanity I'll refrain from ranting. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.

yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.15 09:54:00 - [1091] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: CCP Adida Removed a post that had previously been deleted from another post. <3 <3 _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.15 10:25:00 - [1092] The one rocket ship I can think of that really has serious problems on fitting is the Hookbill. Seriously - less CPU than a Hawk with 5 mids? It needs low-cpu metas all over the place just to work and completely rules out using standard missiles. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.09.15 10:55:00 - [1093] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington The one rocket ship I can think of that really has serious problems on fitting is the Hookbill. Seriously - less CPU than a Hawk with 5 mids? It needs low-cpu metas all over the place just to work and completely rules out using standard missiles. Yeah, I glossed over the Hookbill a bit. Using named DC, webs and scrambler, a rocket dual-web MSE fit will fit, but that's a lot of ISK on named mods, especially those Fleeting webs. But attempting to do anything clever with it in terms of TDs etc fails from CPU, and obviously any sort of usable SML fit with a T2 disruptor is impossible. Yani - good work pointing out the other rocket ships that absolutely don't have the slots to fit a web. When webbing your target gives you a ~80% rocket damage increase, then either the ships that cannot fit a web are broken, or rockets are broken.
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.15 15:36:00 - [1094] "Slots. Do you mean adding slots, or changing slot layouts?" Slot arrangemnt, not adding slots (only for the hawk and crow). Some of the other ships, would only need slight increases in CPU or Powergrid (or lower rocket launcher requirements). "The ability to fit an extra web gives a frigate a much greater ability to control range." A single Stasis Webifier is all thats needed (For most ships that use rockets); those who have flown these ships, would know this (if not, thier dumb) and the double-Stasis Webifier has been overblown. The only reason, i ever came up with the idea of using 2 Stasis Webifier on the, Hookbill (at the time, i couldnt give the hookbill a better tank), was due to my understanding of what makes these ships viable (Not necessarily to improve rocekt damage). Thier are 2 viable option for ships that use rocket; Large Defense (Buffer/Active) - Hawk Flycatcher Heretic Vengeance Mal Hookbill High Velocity (Afterburner) - Hookbill Crow Everything else - Kestrel Inquisitor Breacher Any ship using rockets, that dont make it into the first two categories, are the worst. Indeed i've stopped using Rockets with the: Kestrel, Inquisitor and Breacher in favour of standard missiles launchers (which they excel at). Of course thier are other ships that excel at using standard missile lauchers to varying degrees; Hookbill, Crow, Malediction and Hawk, can use Standard Missile Launchers. "the utter reliance on webs to apply damage" Being reliant on Stasis Webifier is not a big deal (many ships are, if they want to control range or hit anything). Not to long ago, it was a must to have a, stasis webifier, whenever you undocked your ship (still is, somewhat). Having a prepulsion module and some way of stopping someone from warping away (Scrambler/Disruptor), is also a must. That argument is trivial and a waste of time. Everyone in this thread is aware of what a single Stasis Webifier can do for ships using rockets (move on). "Bring significant improvements". Yes, a Kestrel with, fixed rockets, four medslots and lots more CPU and PG would be more powerful then one simply with fixed rockets. Too powerful, in fact. So let's just fix rockets." Who suggested doing that? Certainly not me and certianly not all that; read back up again or are you being overly dramatic? Your trying to counter arguments i have'nt made, but you have suggested. The only thing i agreed with, was when you made a argument directly, better than the one i was proposing and i agreed because it would be (but, you preposed it). I have'nt strayed away from slot arrangemnt and slight increases to CPU or Powergrid (only for certain ships). Also, CPU and powergrid, can be solved by tinkering with rocket launchers. "Things that can be changed are raw damage, explosion velocity and Damage Reduction Factor (DRF)." Im not going to waste anymore time, only focusing a minor issue. "So adding another weapon system will increase the performance of the Flycatcher. Now is the same true for a Sabre? If not, why should a racial ship be able to increase performance with unbonused or even non racial weapon systems when others in the same class doesn't?" Many ships benfit from other weapon systems augmenting thier damage; look at the hurricane and cyclone ( I wont be responding to you, anymore). -Proxyyyy is serving a 13 day ban (Spank are you proud of me?)
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.15 17:33:00 - [1095] Originally by: yani dumyat On the subject of webs I hope the rocket fix will negate the need for dual webs on any normal fit, most rocket ships can already fit a single web. Assuming that a speed mod and point are mandatory: 3 launchers+: (Primary weapon) Hawk - can fit a web but only by fitting a passive tank or running active without a cap booster. Vengeance - can fit a web Malediction - can fit a web Crow - can fit a web when plate fit Kestrel - can fit a web when plate fit Breacher - can not fit a web Inquisitor - can not fit a web Flycatcher - can fit a web Heretic - can fit a web Worm - can fit a web Caldari Navy Hookbill - can fit a web Condor - can not fit a web Split weapons (half and half rockets/guns) Merlin - can fit a web Tristan - can fit a web Eris - can not fit a web Of the four ships that can't fit a web three are victims of the tier system and the fourth is the eris which no one flies either but for different reasons. Plate fitting a kestrel has problems because it's slow as sin and much better off with an MSE, still best of the T1 missile frigs (though that's not saying much). Hawk.....for the sake of your sanity I'll refrain from ranting. You dont know how to fit most these ships, or know what they excel at currently (they do excel in some areas). Also one Stasis Webifier and one damage module is all you need (or damage rigs). The rest of your setup should focused on making the ship more viable; you can then add more damage increasing modules or rigs (if your able to); without gimping the viability of the rest of your setup. I have already increased the Hookbills tank (active and buffer) and damage (140dps). The setup only has one Stasis Webifier, but is still able to dictate range. The hookbill already has very high velocity and thier was no need to increase it (can out run most frigates ingame). i combined alot of things to make it the most viable hookbill setup possible (With a MWD or AB). I have also made a duel prepulsion version with less tank, but damage and velocity remain the same (i've yet to try this setup). Another viable setup for the hookbill is a Standard Missile Launcher, version, that is similar to the previous setups. Many of these ships just take time to figure out (and alot of losses). Not many are inrested in putting in the time to do so and just write them off as fail or gimmick ships. "Using named DC, webs and scrambler, a rocket dual-web MSE fit will fit, but that's a lot of ISK on named mods, especially those Fleeting webs." Its a faction ship; you might as well put some money into it.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.09.15 18:01:00 - [1096] Quote: A single Stasis Webifier is all thats needed (For most ships that use rockets); those who have flown these ships, would know this (if not, thier dumb) and the double-Stasis Webifier has been overblown. The only reason, i ever came up with the idea of using 2 Stasis Webifier on the, Hookbill (at the time, i couldnt give the hookbill a better tank), was due to my understanding of what makes these ships viable (Not necessarily to improve rocekt damage). Nonsense. Without the second web you can lose anything between 33-50% of your already deeply unremarkable DPS vs. a manoeuvring ABing target. Rockets are currently far too reliant on webs. This is not controversial and I'm surprised to see you take this position. Quote: Being reliant on Stasis Webifier is not a big deal (many ships are, if they want to control range or hit anything). Not to long ago, it was a must to have a, stasis webifier, whenever you undocked your ship (still is, somewhat). That argument is trivial and a waste of time. Everyone in this thread is aware of what a single Stasis Webifier can do for ships using rockets (move on). You've missed the point. Rocket ships are much more dependent on webs than turret ships, which can influence tracking via their own movement. This is harder without a web, but still possible. The cookie dual-prop MSE Dramiel doesn't have a web, after all, nor does MSE Rifter. Not so for rocket ships, apart from the extremely limited case of trying to force your opponent to lose speed in tight turns. Quote: Quote: "Bring significant improvements". Yes, a Kestrel with, fixed rockets, four medslots and lots more CPU and PG would be more powerful then one simply with fixed rockets. Too powerful, in fact. So let's just fix rockets." Who suggested doing that? Certainly not me and certianly not all that; read back up again I suggested "just fixing rockets". Along with everyone else in this thread, mind you. Apart from you, that is, who seem to be more interested in incomprehensible posts and vague, unspecified fiddles to a dozen ships, rather than a simple elegant change. I suggest that you "read back up again". Quote: Having a prepulsion module and some way of stopping someone from warping away (Scrambler/Disruptor), is also a must. Thanks. For. That.
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.15 20:29:00 - [1097] "Nonsense. Without the second web you can lose anything between 33-50% of your already deeply unremarkable DPS vs. a manoeuvring ABing target. Rockets are currently far too reliant on webs." Well, my single-web Hookbill is superior to the double web version in almost everyway (bar 1), including damage (That is a fact). A single web rocket-ship, with 2 damage modifiers (module and rigs), run those numbers, and you would find that to be true. Its the same with most of the other ships that use rockets (had to re-work them all); after i noticed the need and preformance of 1 web and damage mod (Mirrors the preformace of double webs). After that, it was just a matter of adding more damage modifiers to my setups (effectively giving these ships 2 damage modifiers and a web). I also saw the diffrence on my graphs. When engaging with a single web hookbill as oppose to the double webbed version (Web + Damage mod). The damage diffrence, was negligible (although it did more). I was already able to prove this ingame, with another pilot in my corp at the time, who likes to think he understands what i do. Also, i showed various pilots who were intrested, video's of many engagements with a duel-prop, single web, active tanked Hookbill (no damage module). So, why am i able to engage other frigates with a single web Hookbill, with no damage module and still win? Over-all Viabilty; even if it was true that i was doing 50% of my total damage, other factors compinsated. So, one thing is perfectly clear; Without the ability to dictate range, the hookbill will get torn apart by most faction, t2 and even some t1 frigates. Even if it were able to apply full damage, most t1 frigates would tear it apart before they went down (duel-web hookbill). (i had a bro suggest a lol test, because he wanted to prove i was a dumbass) I was bored, so i complied. All ships would be at 0 and no movement was made, then modules were activated. The test was done with Punisher, Merlin ,Rifter and Navy frigates. All the other navy ships went threw most t1 frigates farily quickly (punisher was an exception). The hookbill was the only navy ship, that struggled and even lost (it also lost to every other navy ship). It proved what should be common knowledge; thier are many factors that make a ship viable, not just one (blasters and raw damage; as an example). The Hookbill does'nt do alot of damage anyways, even if it could apply it all (atleast when compared to other faction ships); Its tank is not much better than a t1 frigate. All this shows, the problem would'nt be fixed just focusing on rockets alone. Based on all thats being suggested; no-one wants rockets to out-damage Autocannons, Lasers or Blasters. If thats the case, then they'll still be pwned by those ships everytime (If your just factoring raw damage output and tank). "You've missed the point. Rocket ships are much more dependent on webs than turret ships, which can influence tracking via their own movement. This is harder without a web, but still possible. The cookie dual-prop MSE Dramiel doesn't have a web, after all, nor does MSE Rifter. Not so for rocket ships, apart from the extremely limited case of trying to force your opponent to lose speed in tight turns." Same could be said for blasters; Ships that use blasters need webs, right? "I suggested "just fixing rockets". Along with everyone else in this thread, mind you. Apart from you, that is, who seem to be more interested in incomprehensible posts and vague, unspecified fiddles to a dozen ships, rather than a simple elegant change. I suggest that you "read back up again". Heh! No need, i already read exactly what you've said and i have'nt strayed from my arguments; So you basicaly wasted both are times, by even suggesting otherwise. (Read back up again one more time) "Thanks. For. That" Your welcome... -Proxyyyy is serving a 13 day ban
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.15 23:05:00 - [1098] Quote: Ships that use blasters need webs, right? The dual prop Taranis would like a word with you. But really, why are we still responding to Proxyyy's bull****? He's either trolling or a complete tool. Either way he's not even worth acknowledging any more. This thread has plenty of well researched figures and evidence, and if that's not going to get through his skull nothing is. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.15 23:57:00 - [1099] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Quote: Ships that use blasters need webs, right? The dual prop Taranis would like a word with you. But really, why are we still responding to Proxyyy's bull**? He's either trolling or a complete tool. Either way he's not even worth acknowledging any more. This thread has plenty of well researched figures and evidence, and if that's not going to get through his skull nothing is. Ha ha ha! The duel-fail ranis... Apparently, im told by many that i dont fail at spaceships; although they could be telling me lies. Also, me a tool? You got to be joking. Also, its not bull** if you can back it up = / -silly clown
Lyanca Amarr United Wormholes	Posted - 2010.09.16 00:12:00 - [1100] Rockets are fine, they do decent dps with good range and isn't dependant on tracking, compare with blasters and you will see. Learn to use webs. If there is any frigate weapon that needs a boost it is lasers.

Toady11	Posted - 2010.09.16 01:25:00 - [1101] I agree with Lyanca. Rockets are fine as they are. You don't even have to worry about tracking when you're using them because they always hit which seems a little OP to me considering they're supposed to be unguided. As for the laser idea I think that maybe if you have a laser your rockets will be able to home in easier and hit targets better and if you don't fit one then they will do very little damage to small ships like a torpedo. Most Rocket using ships have a utility high anyways so it wouldn't even be hard to fit them. I also think that rockets should be limited to six shots per reload because if you look at their picture you can see that they can only fit six rockets. Why would CCP put that picture in there if that wasn't the way they were intended to be?
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.16 04:03:00 - [1102] Originally by: idiot Proxyyyy is serving a 13 day ban (Spank are you proud of me?) Originally by: trolls laser guided rockets By making a statement like "Spank are you proud of me" I can only assume that there was a moment where Spank felt like Don Corleone and said "Yes you may kiss my ring." Proxy kissed said ring and after subjugating his dignity upon the alter of internet fame proceeded to suck deeply upon the ring so he may be blessed with the ability to spew forth the contents of spanks ring upon the forums. Logic is the only thing that counts here. This is not C+P so if you want to play a game of wit then yeah I'll play but don't expect anyone to take you seriously. I refer you to a simple truth of modern life => Geeks Rule. Literally. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.16 05:28:00 - [1103] Edited by: yyyyxorp on 16/09/2010 05:31:43 I refer you to a simple truth of modern life => Geeks Rule Wtf are you talking about (yani dumyat, you have no clue)? Also, i would suck spanks **** if he asked me too (strange h0m0 love) = / Also, i agree with Lyanca and toady!
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.09.16 06:48:00 - [1104] Originally by: yyyyxorp A single Stasis Webifier is all thats needed (For most ships that use rockets); those who have flown these ships, would know this Not always, sometimes one web is enough, quite often it isn't. I fought a duel prop 'ranis once in a scram/web 'diction, his drones alone were doing more damage than my rockets were. It took minutes to whittle him down, he popped when I was in about 20% structure. I won because he had a meta AB and no speed mods at all so I could keep distance, a fail-fit duel-prop basically. If he was a little bit faster not only would my 30dps or so be reduced even further but I would not have been able to maintain distance. Duel prop is quite prevalent these days and I'm surprised I don't see more around considering it's effectiveness. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.16 10:20:00 - [1105] Quote: Rockets are fine, they do decent dps You just lost all credibility there. Quote: good range Only on paper. Quote: isn't dependant on tracking, Look up what missile damage reduction is before commenting on stuff you're clueless about, mmkay? Quote: If there is any frigate weapon that needs a boost it is lasers. Right yeah, lasers are so gimped, that's why rocket Crows are great inties and Crusaders are never ever use- oh wait! Quote: I agree with Lyanca. Rockets are fine as they are. You don't even have to worry about tracking when you're using them because they always hit which seems a little OP to me considering they're supposed to be unguided. Look up damage reduction and like Lyanca stop commenting on things you don't have a clue about. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.16 16:22:00 - [1106] Originally by: Braitai Originally by: yyyyxorp A single Stasis Webifier is all thats needed (For most ships that use rockets); those who have flown these ships, would know this Not always, sometimes one web is enough, quite often it isn't. I fought a duel prop 'ranis once in a scram/web 'diction, his drones alone were doing more damage than my rockets were. It took minutes to whittle him down, he popped when I was in about 20% structure. I won because he had a meta AB and no speed mods at all so I could keep distance, a fail-fit duel-prop basically. If he was a little bit faster not only would my 30dps or so be reduced even further but I would not have been able to maintain distance. Duel prop is quite prevalent these days and I'm surprised I don't see more around considering it's effectiveness. The malediction is probably the worst ship using rockets broski (atleast in terms of damage). Even if you were able to do all of your damage, it wouldnt be enough. Looking at that ship often frustrates me (realy want it to work with rockets); Even if you were able to get more damage out of it, the cost of that setup is pretty high. The Malediction also has serious cpu issues, that you cant get around when using rockets (to expensive to fit damage mods). It does however have a great tank, which enables it to go into scram range and slug it out. I dont know if you've taken a look at the crow, but it has alot more damage than the Malediction does, but with a very poor tank. The crow has the cpu and grid to enable it to be a awesome damage dealing rocket ship, but without a tank its not very viable. This is the uber expensive setup that makes the Malediction more viable; The damage has been increased alot and you'll notice the lasers turrent is needed to, augment, that increase: [Malediction, Malediction_Rocket] Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Ballistic Control System II Adaptive Nano Plating II 1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket Gatling Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency S Small Bay Loading Accelerator I Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I Based on the current changes beening disscused the Malediction will not likely be getting alot of love and will still suffer in the damage department (sad tbh). This is my current setup for the ship; [Malediction, Malediction] Damage Control II Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Coreli C-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Small Projectile Burst Aerator I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I "Duel prop is quite prevalent these days and I'm surprised I don't see more around considering it's effectiveness." No, duel-prop, is fail and was developed for use with the taranis (rail ranis is bettter); anyone who flys that ship knows is not very effective against ab'ing frigates at all (not good for low sec), which is what it was created to deal with. About the only two ships effective with duel-propulsion, are the Dramiel and Firetail (Succubus too). Even if the ranis could get into range, the crusader and claw have almost as much damage with way better tanks (hence why i find it a joke, but love the ship anyways).
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.09.16 22:14:00 - [1107] Originally by: yyyyxorp The malediction is probably the worst ship using rockets broski (atleast in terms of damage). Good thing damage isn't everything? Saying that the Malediction is the worst rocket ship is pretty ridiculous really, considering the only thing rockets have going for them is their range versatility. They can out-range AC's and blasters and out-track lasers, all of which requires range control. That means mid slots and speed, of which the 'diction has plenty. Only the Hookbill exceeds it, and I'd be hesistant to call it a better ship because it lacks a utility high slot for neut protection when tackling larger targets, and it's slower, so it's harder to tackle the targets that rockets can actually hurt, IE MWD frigates. Obviously the Hookbill and the AF rocket boats are in a weight class above the 'diction, but the 'diction is actually moderately useful despite the fact that it's using the worst weapon system in the game currently. Originally by: yyyyxorp anyone who flys that ship knows is not very effective against ab'ing frigates at all (not good for low sec), which is what it was created to deal with." Uuuhh, no it wasn't. It was created to tackle cruisers. The AB allows it to out track medium guns when scrammed/webbed. Frigate combat is all about range control, "wasting" a slot on a MWD puts you at a disadvantage once tackle lands and the fight actually starts, if you're fitting blasters you'll lose to a ship that's fitted strictly to fight in web range. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.17 00:06:00 - [1108] "Good thing damage isn't everything?" Well, i dont think were disagreeing here; damage is'nt everything. You seem to be contradicting yourself wtih the next statment. "Saying that the Malediction is the worst rocket ship is pretty ridiculous really". You quoted excalty what i said, me referring to the malediction being the worst in tems of damage, which you then countered with this statement. "Good thing damage isn't everything?" "considering the only thing rockets have going for them is their range versatility." Agreed, rockets may not do the most damage, but coupled with other facters Including; range, damage selection, and tank or speed; they can be very competitive, with the right setup. "Obviously the Hookbill and the AF rocket boats are in a weight class above the 'diction, but the 'diction is actually moderately useful despite the fact that it's using the worst weapon system in the game currently." I agree with most of this, but i dont think rockets are the worst weapon system ingame (same thing pilots said about autocannons). You've already stated the benifits of rockets and what they bring to the table, which is " the only thing rockets have going for them is their range versatility". "Uuuhh, no it wasn't. It was created to tackle cruisers. The AB allows it to out track medium guns when scrammed/webbed. Frigate combat is all about range control, "wasting" a slot on a MWD puts you at a disadvantage once tackle lands and the fight actually starts, if you're fitting blasters you'll lose to a ship that's fitted strictly to fight in web range." Dude, i know who came up with the setup broski; not only that, but i was one of those pilots capitalizing on the new changes to **** Mwd-Ranis in silly ships (Was a massacre, seemed eveyone was taking turns). Also, the mwd-ranis wont be tracked by med sized turrents under 2-3k, but one of the benifits the duel-prop ranis had, was it could leave scram range a bit faster (overloaded Ab). Since i was flying ranises before and after those changes im aware of its abilities. Also, im able to track duel-prop ranises, with scram and web, at 5k with med Auto-cannons (Med-Lasers/scram/webs, have even hit me in my firetail at 4-6k). Braitai, how much of a increase in damage%, would rockets need, for your Malediction to be competitive with a crusader or claw?
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.09.17 05:01:00 - [1109] Originally by: yyyyxorp You seem to be contradicting yourself wtih the next statment. "Saying that the Malediction is the worst rocket ship is pretty ridiculous really". You quoted excalty what i said, me referring to the malediction being the worst in tems of damage, which you then countered with this statement. "Good thing damage isn't everything?" I was disagreeing with your statement that the Malediction is the "worst rocket ship" - it isn't, I consider it to be the best, with the possible exception of the Hookbill. Quote: Dude, i know who came up with the setup I'm sure there were thousands of people who looked at the scram changes and instantly thought of fitting MWD/AB, I know I did. First ship I ever duel propped was a Rifter, and it worked great, till it got hit by a neut from a Cyclone. Any 'ceptor can speed tank medium guns if you get close enough, even without an AB, the AB helps you get you into a tighter orbit faster. A scram/web simply decrease the distance you need to be from the target. Without it a lot of the time you'll just get popped before you can get close enough. Quote: Braitai, how much of a increase in damage%, would rockets need, for your Malediction to be competitive with a crusader or claw? I stated before that the 'diction is already competitive with these ships, as long as they are fitting MWD's and you're packing scram/web, since the scram basically functions as a second web in that situation. The problem is that's almost the only situation where rockets ARE useful. For instance, if you put a long point on a 'diction, don't bother with rockets. You even need to web drones in order to kill them. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.17 07:30:00 - [1110] The malediction is probably the worst ship using rockets broski (atleast in terms of damage). Decided to quote myself and even bolded a key area. Lets end it at that! "I was disagreeing with your statement that the Malediction is the "worst rocket ship" - it isn't, I consider it to be the best, with the possible exception of the Hookbill." I was surprised about that statement (I dont consider the hookbill, the best); wonder what makes the Malediction better than a, Vengeace, Hawk, Flycatcher, Heretic or Crow? I know from flying the Malediction, its limitations and what it excels at, but it cant match the best in its class (atleast not with rocket launchers); Rail-Ranis, Gank-Crusader, and Claw, have twice the damage and the same or better tank. Also, Rifter, Punisher and rail-Tristan; can engage a Malediction evenly. Anything you can engage in a malediction, under scram-range, i can engage, with even better results in a Hawk (what makes the Malediction second best?). The power-grid and cpu requirements of rocket launchers, makes it impossible to fit a good enough tank. For example; my current Malediction setup, that is a match for any of the top tier interceptors (140dps overloaded, 5,500k/ehp). [Malediction, Malediction] Damage Control II Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Coreli C-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Small Projectile Burst Aerator I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I It may be fast (with AB), but its speed is not enough without the abiltiy to capitalize on its tank (similar to the vengeace). A malediction, able to fit the above tank, with rocket launchers, would be more viable (more time to apply its low damage), but at the moment it cannot. (Try to prove my statements wrong, by linking your many killmails with a malediction) "I'm sure there were thousands of people who looked at the scram changes and instantly thought of fitting MWD/AB, I know I did." Even if their were, it was a terrible setup for engaging other frigates (unless, lack of skill points, poor piloting and terrible setups).The duel-prop ranis had a, slight benfit, over the mwd-ranis (700m/sec under scram and web) and both only excelled at exploding poorly fitted interceptors (alot of that around). They never held up against properly fitted Claws and Crusaders (after the nano-nerf), even the rail ranis struggles with those ships and still cant compare (for the most part). "I stated before that the 'diction is already competitive with these ships, as long as they are fitting MWD's and you're packing scram/web, since the scram basically functions as a second web in that situation. The problem is that's almost the only situation where rockets ARE useful. For instance, if you put a long point on a 'diction, don't bother with rockets. You even need to web drones in order to kill them." So your saying without the ability of your ship to use range, rockets are useless? So a rocket ship must have high velocity and if not that, it must be able to tank the damage of other frigates within scram range, long enough to apply its own damage? So what if you took away range + tank and gave a hookbill the ability to do 100% damage (120dps), against a blaster-Comet (230/dps); would the Hookbill win? What if you engaged a blaster-comet (short-range 230dps and falloff) and you had range Dictation and ok-tank, but you only did (65%)of your damage (80dps), would you win? <---This scenario is under the current game mechanics and the conditions i engage under. Another scenario would be, the Hawk and Vengeance, they're not able to dictate range, but compensate with large tanks and damage (under current game mechanics)

Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.09.17 14:17:00 - [1111] Originally by: yyyyxorp wonder what makes the Malediction better than a, Vengeace, Hawk, Flycatcher, Heretic or Crow? I know from flying the Malediction, its limitations and what it excels at, but it cant match the best in its class (atleast not with rocket launchers); Rail-Ranis, Gank-Crusader, and Claw, have twice the damage and the same or better tank. I think you need to go and read the rest of this thread, because all of this has been discussed already. I'll say it again for you... a properly fit and flown scram/web/rocket Malediction will beat ANY gank Crusader that's fitting a MWD in a straight up fight, and although in theory a Claw should give it a hard time, it's quite capable of beating those as well. Scram/web/rail 'ranis and duel prop ranis (with either blasters or rails, yes I've seen duel prop rail setups) will beat it easily though. Quote: Also, Rifter, Punisher and rail-Tristan; can engage a Malediction evenly. Anything you can engage in a malediction, under scram-range, i can engage, with even better results in a Hawk (what makes the Malediction second best?). The Hawk and Vengeance are AF's, comparing them to the 'diction is like comparing an Ishkur to a 'ranis. I say the Malediction is the best because it's actually useful, the Hawk and Vengeance are only good for sitting back and waiting for noobs to engage you. A 'diction on the other hand actually fulfill's a role, and can kill similar ships that are also fulfilling that role. It's partly a problem with AF's and T1 frigs, their usefulness is a bit too situational, 'ceptors have just more utility. The other part is what's already been discussed a million times. The only advantage rockets have is the fact that they out range all short range weapons aside from lasers, which they out track. So if you can dictate range, the effectiveness of the Malediction's tank increases proportionally, without affecting it's own DPS output at all. The Crow's lack of tank relegate it to killing tackle 'ceptors, although admittedly it will do it a LOT faster than a 'diction. But GL taking it up against a 'sader or decent Claw, and forget about adding any utility to a gang. Quote: (Try to prove my statements wrong, by linking your many killmails with a malediction) I already have, go back and find them. You've come into this conversation late. Most of what you're saying has already been discussed. Here's one, because I'm feeling generous http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=127131 Try even catching that in Hawk/Vengence, a Crow might catch it but it couldn't tank it. Quote: So your saying without the ability of your ship to use range, rockets are useless? Not simply use range, but dictate it. You need to be able to get close enough to laser boats to get under their guns and reduce their dps, and out range blasters/ac's. A 'dictions tank may not look that great in EFT, but once you factor in the reduction in dps a turret ship receives from tracking/fighting in falloff it starts to look a lot better. Quote: So a rocket ship must have high velocity and if not that, it must be able to tank the damage of other frigates within scram range, long enough to apply its own damage? So what if you took away range + tank and gave a hookbill the ability to do 100% damage (120dps), against a blaster-Comet (230/dps); would the Hookbill win? If by taking away it's range you mean taking away it's range bonus, then yes, it could win, by killing it's drones then out ranging it's blasters, assuming the Hookbill could kill it's drones before it popped. Unbonused rockets hit out to about 8k, that's out of range of a Comet's blasters unless it's packing Null/TE's/Neutrons/Ambits. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.17 18:14:00 - [1112] Edited by: yyyyxorp on 17/09/2010 18:18:15 I think you need to go and read the rest of this thread, because all of this has been discussed already. I'll say it again for you... a properly fit and flown scram/web/rocket Malediction will beat ANY gank Crusader that's fitting a MWD in a straight up fight, and although in theory a Claw should give it a hard time, it's quite capable of beating those as well. Scram/web/rail 'ranis and duel prop ranis (with either blasters or rails, yes I've seen duel prop rail setups) will beat it easily though. Yep, on page 9 or 10; Faffywaffy i believe stated this and then linked some funny mails with alot of poorly fitted interceptors being pwned (was funny). Just because you and Faffywaffy, came up with some rediculous story about, going under the tracking of a crusader, doesnt make it true (although im p sure Faffywaffy did'nt say anything about going under tracking, he just exploded fail-fit interceptors). However, i do agree with Faffywaffy and you, in most everything else, including rockets being fine. The Hawk and Vengeance are AF's, comparing them to the 'diction is like comparing an Ishkur to a 'ranis. I say the Malediction is the best because it's actually useful, the Hawk and Vengeance are only good for sitting back and waiting for noobs to engage you. A 'diction on the other hand actually fulfill's a role, and can kill similar ships that are also fulfilling that role. It's partly a problem with AF's and T1 frigs, their usefulness is a bit too situational, 'ceptors have just more utility. The other part is what's already been discussed a million times. The only advantage rockets have is the fact that they out range all short range weapons aside from lasers, which they out track. So if you can dictate range, the effectiveness of the Malediction's tank increases proportionally, without affecting it's own DPS output at all. The Crow's lack of tank relegate it to killing tackle 'ceptors, although admittedly it will do it a LOT faster than a 'diction. But GL taking it up against a 'sader or decent Claw, and forget about adding any utility to a gang. I dissagree; t1 frigates and assault frigates have a role (said this many times). Apart from that, i made a genearl statement that covered all ships that use rockets. You replied with another general statement, so its assumed that your including assault frigates and even interdictors. Also you seem to have contradicted yourself here; you say the ranis and ishkur cant be compared because their in diffrent classes, but then you say "the Malediction is the best because it's actually useful". Would'nt you need to compare them to come to that conclusion? You also say "the Hawk and Vengeance are only good for sitting back and waiting for noobs to engage you", but many think the Vengeance is one of the best if not the best tackler in-game, because of its tank; is'nt that a role? I already have, go back and find them. You've come into this conversation late. Most of what you're saying has already been discussed. Here's one, because I'm feeling generous http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=127131 Try even catching that in Hawk/Vengence, a Crow might catch it but it couldn't tank it. I can tell you right now, that i have exploded Slicers in t1 frigates and in other navy ships like the Firetail (snakes, skills, and errors happen). So, linking a Malediction blowing up a Slicer with MEDIUM PULSE LASERS and no-tank, neither surprises me nor makes your point (not to mention, you were in a larger-fleet engagement). Also, my Hawk and Vengeance setups are fitted with micro-warp drives and i have stated this in other threads, that i've stopped fitted ab's on none-Minmatar frigates (minmatar are bonused to ab's lol), because their's no point. (Ill be going to the AMARR MILLTIA real soon; you'll be able to prove your malediction can explode my crusaders, in many engagements to come.)
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.17 18:31:00 - [1113] Not simply use range, but dictate it. You need to be able to get close enough to laser boats to get under their guns and reduce their dps, and out range blasters/ac's. A 'dictions tank may not look that great in EFT, but once you factor in the reduction in dps a turret ship receives from tracking/fighting in falloff it starts to look a lot better. Your not getting under the crusaders tracking (td might help that happen); Slicers have no bonuses to tracking and many have no tank, they fit the highest tier laser turrents, with the worst tracking; Punishers when fited with lowest-tier laser turrent, have no issues tracking other frigates. My previous post have already, gone into the falloff, autocannons, blasters lack of range and what makes ships using rockets viable, range dictation or tank (I dont want to go back and quote myself again). This is all semantics, thier is no real disagreement here, but somehow your making it seem that way (lets move on) If by taking away it's range you mean taking away it's range bonus, then yes, it could win, by killing it's drones then out ranging it's blasters, assuming the Hookbill could kill it's drones before it popped. Unbonused rockets hit out to about 8k, that's out of range of a Comet's blasters unless it's packing Null/TE's/Neutrons/Ambits. No, i mean taking its ability to dictate range; Meaning, the Comet (230/dps) would have no issues keeping the Hookbill (120/dps) in its optimal; So its also doing full damage. Anyways, the point i was trying to make was this; rockets damage output is low on ships thier bonused for (even if they could do 100% of it), compared to other ships that use turrents. Now, many talk about not being reliant on using stasis webifiers, but without them, how would you dictate range (range and damage selection, what they excel at right)? Most missile ships dont have comparable tank to turrent ships(excluding; Vengeance, Malediction, Drake and Hawk). Fitting statis webfiers is a requirement. Based on whats been disscused in this thread; slight increases to explosion velocity, base-damage, and launcher capacity; would amount to no significant changes (although, reloading alot is annoying). The ships would remian the same, except for slight increases to damage; that moves it from sh!t damage, to poor damage (Malediction). all rocket-ships, will still be difficult to setup and pilots will still ignore them (in favour of best in class vessels). So if CCP, is going to half ass this, they might as well not do it at all! - will now, increase efforts to destroy thread, with some help = )
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.09.17 19:51:00 - [1114] Can Proxy make his posts any less readable? I fear so.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.17 20:07:00 - [1115] Originally by: Gypsio III Can Proxy make his posts any less readable? I fear so. You try to read them? Its not like he will add anything valuable or not known already to this thread. v0v /still waiting for changes to hit sisi
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.17 21:13:00 - [1116] Originally by: Gypsio III Can Proxy make his posts any less readable? I fear so. \0/ YES!
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.17 22:39:00 - [1117] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Gypsio III Can Proxy make his posts any less readable? I fear so. Its not like he will add anything valuable or not known already to this thread. v0v _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.18 01:44:00 - [1118] Would also be nice if the crow got another midslot; why does a, Caldari vessel, have so many lows? Also having the grid and cpu to fit such a ship would be nice. -Proxyyyy is serving a 13 day
Noir Avlaa Amarr Therapy. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.09.18 01:48:00 - [1119] Making this available to WIDOT. Originally by: CCP Navigator I do want to take this opportunity to make it clear that posting "This is now a WIDOT thread" is considered spam and is likely to generate a warning for anyone doing so in the future. Reference removed/
Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.09.18 04:49:00 - [1120] Originally by: yyyyxorp (Ill be going to the AMARR MILLTIA real soon; you'll be able to prove your malediction can explode my crusaders, in many engagements to come.) Excellent. Try not to spam local too much. BTW that wasn't a "larger fleet engagement", that Stiletto on the KM pointed the Slicer then bolted when he realised it was just the two of us. It's a fairly normal long range fit really. 24km optimal, speed fit, long point.. even overloaded a Vengeance or Hawk would be slower. BTW I never said rockets were "fine". Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.

Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.09.18 04:59:00 - [1121] My recommendations to fix rockets: Launcher Changes- Increase clip size to 200. Faction/T1 ammo- Increase base EV to 230m/s. Decrease DRF to 1.5. No change in base damage. Rage rockets- Increase ER to 60m. Increaase damage by 50%. Javelin rockets- Increase velocity bonus from 50% to 100%. Remove speed penalty. No other changes to current stats. Additionally- Decrease SML grid requirement to 6. Decrease DRF to 2. Change the Hawks bonus from active tanking to a resist bonus. A. It makes no sense on a Caldari ship B. Active shield tank on a frigate with 4 mid slots is a bit.. fail. Fix AF's. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Erin Feineneu Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.18 05:02:00 - [1122] Thanks for the new ship CCP, we didn't want that rocket fix anyway. ___________ ___________ ___________
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.18 15:10:00 - [1123] Originally by: Erin Feineneu Thanks for the new ship CCP, we didn't want that rocket fix anyway. I would'nt mind some tier 1 t1 and t2 destroyers. More bs's would be intresting too.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.18 21:12:00 - [1124] I'd like to see a phalanx of thorny gremlins dance the funky foxfire. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.09.18 22:14:00 - [1125] Originally by: yani dumyat I'd like to see a phalanx of thorny gremlins dance the funky foxfire. I wouldn't. I'd rage and throw a javelin at them.
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.18 22:44:00 - [1126] You know what would be kool right now? Walking in stations. Instead CCP is doing a half ass job on rockets/ship/launchers. Eve needs more ships too!
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.19 15:01:00 - [1127] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: yani dumyat I'd like to see a phalanx of thorny gremlins dance the funky foxfire. I wouldn't. I'd rage and throw a javelin at them. I'd say touche sir but for the sake of bumping this thread I shall instead call you a CNt. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.19 22:13:00 - [1128] According to my new religion "Roflketism", page 2 is blasphemy. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2010.09.20 16:25:00 - [1129] a quick update - the first set of balance changes to rockets should end up on sisi next week (possibly earlier but at the very least next week). For now as we mentioned previously, none of the changes should be too surprising, the explosion velocity got a boost along with the overall damage (RoF decreased whilst rocket damage increased) alongside increase in clip size). Specific numbers and detailed info on the changes will be posted next week in a sticky thread here in this forum at the to get the testing and feedback kicked off.

Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.20 16:39:00 - [1130] Originally by: CCP Chronotis a quick update - the first set of balance changes to rockets should end up on sisi next week (possibly earlier but at the very least next week). For now as we mentioned previously, none of the changes should be too surprising, the explosion velocity got a boost along with the overall damage (RoF decreased whilst rocket damage increased) alongside increase in clip size). Specific numbers and detailed info on the changes will be posted next week in a sticky thread here in this forum at the to get the testing and feedback kicked off. <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 Seriously. This will be such a welcome addition to the frigate world! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html

Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.09.20 18:06:00 - [1131] Edited by: Gypsio III on 20/09/2010 18:08:51 Awesome. I think there's some scope for decreasing the rocket Damage Reduction Factor, which would increase damage against ABing targets in a fashion that might be more controllable than an increase in explosion velocity, as well as lessening the "absolutely essential" state of a web to support rocket damage. But there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.20 20:11:00 - [1132] Originally by: CCP Chronotis a quick update - the first set of balance changes to rockets should end up on sisi next week (possibly earlier but at the very least next week). For now as we mentioned previously, none of the changes should be too surprising, the explosion velocity got a boost along with the overall damage (RoF decreased whilst rocket damage increased) alongside increase in clip size). Specific numbers and detailed info on the changes will be posted next week in a sticky thread here in this forum at the to get the testing and feedback kicked off. <3 Brb off to buy a Hookbill or 3. Gonna take me a while to get used to the idea of a flyable Hawk though... _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.20 20:22:00 - [1133] I just hope that ammo changes also cover rage and javelin roflkets :)
Zach Donnell Ghost-Busters	Posted - 2010.09.20 20:39:00 - [1134] Originally by: CCP Chronotis a quick update - the first set of balance changes to rockets should end up on sisi next week (possibly earlier but at the very least next week). For now as we mentioned previously, none of the changes should be too surprising, the explosion velocity got a boost along with the overall damage (RoF decreased whilst rocket damage increased) alongside increase in clip size). Specific numbers and detailed info on the changes will be posted next week in a sticky thread here in this forum at the to get the testing and feedback kicked off. Would you be so kind as to let us know whether we can expect the results of this balance (boost) to hit TQ before, or as part of, the Winter Expansion? ------------------------------------------------- "Bustin' makes me feel good!"
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.20 21:51:00 - [1135] Originally by: CCP Chronotis a quick update - the first set of balance changes to rockets should end up on sisi next week (possibly earlier but at the very least next week). Adding some appreciation. ^_^ Perhaps we should have a rocket night on SISI? Sunday 26th Sept at 20:00 would be my suggestion. Anyone up for it? _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.21 01:32:00 - [1136] please see this thread. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.21 01:38:00 - [1137] Well 26th IF rockets make it to sisi this week :) If ya want i guess i can spare 100m on TQ or something v0v.
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.09.21 02:25:00 - [1138] FRIGANK8 will be indefinitely delayed until rocket changes his tq - MY LATEST VIDEO - DO IT ALONE COWARD
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2010.09.21 03:29:00 - [1139] Originally by: CCP Chronotis . This pleases me greatly ----- results may vary
Izuru Hishido Amarr Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.21 05:28:00 - [1140] Edited by: Izuru Hishido on 21/09/2010 05:31:45 Originally by: yyyyxorp You know what would be kool right now? Walking in stations. Instead CCP is doing a half ass job on rockets/ship/launchers. Eve needs more ships too! First, read my entire post before going NNNNGNGNGRAAGE! Really...mmmm, I'd rather have a lag fix. I'd rather be able to see EVE able to support the 1000+ man fights that CCP advertises in most of their trailers on Tranquility again. CCP was making astonishing progress in Apocrypha, but the progress was halted in Dominion and rolled back a bit in the expansions since. Walking in stations would necessitate an unheard of shift in resources from things that CCP are famous for. In most MMO's, the servers start to break at 100+ people in the same area. In Apocrypha, EVE could support 1500 people in the same system. Granted, that was when problems compounded, but the server still could manage. I was astonished by that. That is the very core of the reason why I play this game, to fight alongside 700 of my allies and against 700 of my enemies in the same system, on the same grid, with a huge amount of stuff going on in the background, with the Control tower shooting at people on whichever side its on, and still support the fight. If walking in stations happens, then most of the 1500 people who were in that fight would be unable to replicate that ever again in the future just because of the sheer amount of server resources dedicated to each person in each room wandering around rendering the hair, the eyes, the clothes, and the character picking their nose while outside the station people are trying to fight. The server would embolize instantly. The node would quite literally and without any prognostication explode. Walking in stations and 1500 man fights (and Tranquility could barely support that then, and certainly can't support it now) simply cannot be supported without CCP inventing some phenomenal new server that could support it. No MMO can handle that. Not now, anyway. Maybe in five or ten years, but not right now. That said! If CCP were to create another server, (Space based operations on Tranquility, Space based testing on Singularity, and ambulation on a completely different server, and maybe call it Relativity or something like that) THEN and only then ambulation would be possible and very, very feasible. I really do appreciate that you want to see your character from a third person omniscient standpoint or even from a first person limited standpoint, but right now, it simply cannot happen all on the same server. That said, you have to appreciate also that I want to engage in 700 v 700 man spaceship fights with my buddies and my enemies. If you want to play an FPS, then by all means, play an FPS, but CCP cannot support an FPS server, a moon goo server, and a galaxy full of characters on top of it all fighting as it is now. If they try, the server will die. If you feel the need to rage, then you obviously didn't see the part of my post where I said that I appreciate that you want this, and asked politely that you appreciate what I want as a fellow player as well. "The point of war is not to die for your country, its to make the other bastard die for his."

Ban Doga	Posted - 2010.09.21 06:14:00 - [1141] Originally by: CCP Chronotis a quick update - the first set of balance changes to rockets should end up on sisi next week (possibly earlier but at the very least next week). For now as we mentioned previously, none of the changes should be too surprising, the explosion velocity got a boost along with the overall damage (RoF decreased whilst rocket damage increased) alongside increase in clip size). Specific numbers and detailed info on the changes will be posted next week in a sticky thread here in this forum at the to get the testing and feedback kicked off. And it took you how many months to tell "it has to fit into the bigger picture" and "it's not just changing some numbers" and then go and do exactly what had been suggested hundreds of times already?
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.21 07:31:00 - [1142] _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.21 09:48:00 - [1143] Everyone predicted that a silly broad buff to rockets was certain after entire :18months: thing. CCP as expected completely missed the point that rocket issues were used as a symbol of general "balance" status of game. By buffing all aspects of rockets you will of course make rocket specialized frigs and dictors silly OP. So, a year from now all frigate engagements will be Caldari T3 frig with a rocket fit, vs the Angel Ships. :CCP: Polished content =/= broken and unbalanced content.
Yankunytjatjara Amarr Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.09.21 12:35:00 - [1144] Originally by: CCP Chronotis a quick update - the first set of balance changes to rockets should end up on sisi next week (possibly earlier but at the very least next week). For now as we mentioned previously, none of the changes should be too surprising, the explosion velocity got a boost along with the overall damage (RoF decreased whilst rocket damage increased) alongside increase in clip size). Specific numbers and detailed info on the changes will be posted next week in a sticky thread here in this forum at the to get the testing and feedback kicked off. OMFG YES darnit I was actually starting to get out of this spaceships habit And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors
Wildcard Trek Caldari Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.21 14:30:00 - [1145] Edited by: Wildcard Trek on 21/09/2010 14:35:48 Giving Rockets a damage bonus and reducing the rate of fire is about the same thing as doing nothing, rockets are not instant damage like every other weapon system out there, rockets / missiles do not get a damage bonus to the spec skills like every other weapon system out there, instead they get a rof bonus, which means little to nothing in the grand scheme of things. Buff rockets, really buff rockets, give them a damage increase that is comparable to gunnery, dont lessen the rof, add more capacity to rocket launchers 100% more than now, and change the rocket / missile spec skills to reflect a damage bonus like every other weapon system out there. Basic gunnery skill 5% damage per level Basic missile skill 5% damage per level Gunnery Support Skill Rapid fire skill 4% rof per level Spec gunnery skill 2% damage per level ( Instant damage ) Spec missile skill 2% rof per level ( worthless ) Missile Support Skill Rapid launch skill 3% rof per level ( again less than gunnery, make it 4% as well ) If your gonna buff then go ahead and buff and not tease about a buff. Change missile damage to be comparable to gunnery make the damage per level in the spec skill the same as gunnery and make the rof skill the same as gunnery. Why do rockets / missiles have to suck, they dont. But since they do I quit using them over 2 years ago since they are so horrible, and never looked back. Wasted 12 some Mil SP.
steave435 Caldari SniggWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.09.21 14:51:00 - [1146] Quote: Giving Rockets a damage bonus and reducing the rate of fire is about the same thing as doing nothing That completely depends on how much those stats change. For example, if rof is cut in half but damage is multiplied by 10, then the dps has gone up 5x.
Zach Donnell Ghost-Busters	Posted - 2010.09.21 15:29:00 - [1147] Originally by: Wildcard Trek Edited by: Wildcard Trek on 21/09/2010 14:35:48 Giving Rockets a damage bonus and reducing the rate of fire is about the same thing as doing nothing, rockets are not instant damage like every other weapon system out there, rockets / missiles do not get a damage bonus to the spec skills like every other weapon system out there, instead they get a rof bonus, which means little to nothing in the grand scheme of things. Buff rockets, really buff rockets, give them a damage increase that is comparable to gunnery, dont lessen the rof, add more capacity to rocket launchers 100% more than now, and change the rocket / missile spec skills to reflect a damage bonus like every other weapon system out there. Basic gunnery skill 5% damage per level Basic missile skill 5% damage per level Gunnery Support Skill Rapid fire skill 4% rof per level Spec gunnery skill 2% damage per level ( Instant damage ) Spec missile skill 2% rof per level ( worthless ) Missile Support Skill Rapid launch skill 3% rof per level ( again less than gunnery, make it 4% as well ) If your gonna buff then go ahead and buff and not tease about a buff. Change missile damage to be comparable to gunnery make the damage per level in the spec skill the same as gunnery and make the rof skill the same as gunnery. Why do rockets / missiles have to suck, they dont. But since they do I quit using them over 2 years ago since they are so horrible, and never looked back. Wasted 12 some Mil SP. The whine is strong in this one. Isn't decreasing the ROF going from say 2s to 1.5s? Maybe I'm wrong, but maybe you should wait and see what they actually do before you start *****ing :) ------------------------------------------------- "Bustin' makes me feel good!"
Alexeph Stoekai Stoekai Corp	Posted - 2010.09.21 16:00:00 - [1148] Originally by: Izuru Hishido That said! If CCP were to create another server, (Space based operations on Tranquility, Space based testing on Singularity, and ambulation on a completely different server, and maybe call it Relativity or something like that) THEN and only then ambulation would be possible and very, very feasible. I really do appreciate that you want to see your character from a third person omniscient standpoint or even from a first person limited standpoint, but right now, it simply cannot happen all on the same server. Ever since they started working on WiS, CCP has made it clear that it will be running on its own nodes. it was one of the main reasons cited for not being able to see things outside of the station through windows. You're raging over nothing, mate. And you're incredibly off-topic. -----
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.09.21 16:10:00 - [1149] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 21/09/2010 16:10:53 Originally by: Wildcard Trek Giving Rockets a damage bonus and reducing the rate of fire is about the same thing as doing nothing.. Very much depends on what else they do. My hope is that they make them into miniature HAMs. Much higher damage output than lights but requiring tackle/TP for maximum efficiency. To do that they have to increase damage by a factor of 3 as well as decrease RoF by about 1.5 (to get around 3.5s RoF or so). After that all that is needed are small tweaks to Exp.velocity/radius to drop damage to light level unless aforementioned tackle/TP are applied. Looking forward to seeing what they are doing at any rate, getting a little bored using gun toting Vengeances
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.21 16:46:00 - [1150] Quote: My hope is that they make them into miniature HAMs. Much higher damage output than lights but requiring tackle/TP for maximum efficiency. Umm, what? Have you been reading this thread at all? The fact they need full tackle + TP to be properly effective is why they're completely ed. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED

Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.09.21 16:54:00 - [1151] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Umm, what? Have you been reading this thread at all? The fact they need full tackle + TP to be properly effective is why they're completely ed. Note that I did not use the '+' sign and used current HAMs as example. Problem you run into if you do not make tackle/TP a requirement is the Caldari ships with range bonuses. With rigs you can get a damn good range on rockets and if dps is increased without accounting for this then a ship like the Crow will not only come out from its mothballed status but it will utterly **** all competitors. Non-range bonus ships have to be in scram/web range anyway so they will not be significantly/adversely affected by it.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.21 17:11:00 - [1152] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/09/2010 17:14:47 As far as i remember crow IS a combat interceptor - and probably one of worst of them. Crusader/Taranis eats it alive, claw is kinda worse but still decent. Crow is behind the flock. With rocket boost it should still die to crusaders and rail ranises but will have decent chances against blaster ranis. Dunno about claw, i dont fly them (my small AC "skill" comes solely from sabre piloting). The only rocket ship i would be worried about is kestrel as it is kinda nasty already.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.09.21 17:24:00 - [1153] Originally by: Deva Blackfire ...The only rocket ship i would be worried about is kestrel as it is kinda nasty already. Kinda? Done right they are well beyond nasty Kestrel is one of the reasons I want tackle/TP to be mandatory. Basically forces it to go tank at the cost of dps or vice versa ..
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.09.21 18:03:00 - [1154] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida My hope is that they make them into miniature HAMs. Much higher damage output than lights but requiring tackle/TP for maximum efficiency. To do that they have to increase damage by a factor of 3 as well as decrease RoF by about 1.5 (to get around 3.5s RoF or so). After that all that is needed are small tweaks to Exp.velocity/radius to drop damage to light level unless aforementioned tackle/TP are applied. Tripling the damage, that's crazy talk! And such a weapon system would not scale well - it would be hard to use solo, but a frigate gang with sufficient tackle available would be insane to use any other weapon. Sod "mini-HAMs", just give us rockets that aren't crippled by the first afterburner and that aren't so massively reliant on webbing the opponent.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.21 19:01:00 - [1155] Something that worries me slightly is that Chronotis didn't mention DRF. I'll wait till they hit sisi before making any judgments but if the DRF hasn't been modified then a boost to Ev will do very little in terms of reducing the need for a web. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Hawk TT Caldari Bulgarian Experienced Crackers Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.09.21 22:36:00 - [1156] k Originally by: Izuru Hishido If walking in stations happens, then most of the 1500 people who were in that fight would be unable to replicate that ever again in the future just because of the sheer amount of server resources dedicated to each person in each room wandering around rendering the hair, the eyes, the clothes, and the character picking their nose while outside the station people are trying to fight. Tranquility is not a single server, but a cluster of many, many blade-servers, known as "nodes". With the recent system architecture changes there are different roles assigned to different nodes - SOL Nodes (space simulation), Character Nodes (market, evemail etc.). Ambulation a.k.a Walking in Stations a.k.a. Incarna will be hosted on different type (dedicated) of nodes, that's for sure! One more thing - rendering hair, eyes, clothes will be performed by your EVE Client, i.e. on each player's PC. Tranquility has nothing to do with visual rendering. Of course, some players complain even now that Incarna would require serious PC resources (DirectX 10 GPU, I suspect), but that's optional game aspect, isn't it? Originally by: Izuru Hishido Walking in stations and 1500 man fights (and Tranquility could barely support that then, and certainly can't support it now) simply cannot be supported without CCP inventing some phenomenal new server that could support it. No MMO can handle that. Not now, anyway. Maybe in five or ten years, but not right now. a) Incarna will be separated by the 1500 man flights, at least in the first iterations. So, don't worry - there will be no direct influence on big fights. b) Jita recently managed to support 2023 playes + many hundreds of CONCORD ships + frenetic market & chat acitivity. SS01: 1997 Players @ 60FPS / Gate View SS02: 2003 Players @ 55FPS / Outside 4-4 Station View SS03: 2025 Players @ 41FPS / Outside 4-4 Station View SS04: 1979 Players @ 20FPS / Outside 4-4 Station - Concord Fight SS05: 1992 Players @ 24FPS / Outside 4-4 Station - Concord Overview SS06: Windows 7 x64 - Resources @ 5 EVE Clients That said! P.S. I KNOW JITA MASS TEST WAS NOT A FIGHT SIMULATION, BUT INCARNA WILL BE A DIFFERENT TYPE OF SIMULATION AS WELL! ___________________________________ Science & Diplomacy Manager @ BECKS Circle-of-Two
OT Smithers	Posted - 2010.09.21 23:47:00 - [1157] Originally by: Zach Donnell Isn't decreasing the ROF going from say 2s to 1.5s? Maybe I'm wrong, but maybe you should wait and see what they actually do before you start *****ing :) A decrease in the rate of fire means that it is firing less often. A change from 2sec to 1.5 seconds would be an increase in the rate of fire.
OT Smithers	Posted - 2010.09.21 23:54:00 - [1158] Originally by: Wildcard Trek Edited by: Wildcard Trek on 21/09/2010 14:35:48 Giving Rockets a damage bonus and reducing the rate of fire is about the same thing as doing nothing, rockets are not instant damage like every other weapon system out there, rockets / missiles do not get a damage bonus to the spec skills like every other weapon system out there, instead they get a rof bonus, which means little to nothing in the grand scheme of things. We need to see what the actual numbers are. But yeah, I understand your point. Quote: Buff rockets, really buff rockets, give them a damage increase that is comparable to gunnery, dont lessen the rof, add more capacity to rocket launchers 100% more than now, and change the rocket / missile spec skills to reflect a damage bonus like every other weapon system out there. Basic gunnery skill 5% damage per level Basic missile skill 5% damage per level Gunnery Support Skill Rapid fire skill 4% rof per level Spec gunnery skill 2% damage per level ( Instant damage ) Spec missile skill 2% rof per level ( worthless ) Missile Support Skill Rapid launch skill 3% rof per level ( again less than gunnery, make it 4% as well ) If your gonna buff then go ahead and buff and not tease about a buff. Change missile damage to be comparable to gunnery make the damage per level in the spec skill the same as gunnery and make the rof skill the same as gunnery. Why do rockets / missiles have to suck, they dont. But since they do I quit using them over 2 years ago since they are so horrible, and never looked back. Wasted 12 some Mil SP. ItÆs Caldari. Caldari are SUPPOSED to suck for PvP -- their ships and weapons are designed that way.
Zach Donnell Ghost-Busters	Posted - 2010.09.22 01:09:00 - [1159] Originally by: OT Smithers Originally by: Zach Donnell Isn't decreasing the ROF going from say 2s to 1.5s? Maybe I'm wrong, but maybe you should wait and see what they actually do before you start ***ing :) A decrease in the rate of fire means that it is firing less often. A change from 2sec to 1.5 seconds would be an increase in the rate of fire. Fair enough, however I dislike the ambiguity in the statement. Originally by:** OT Smithers ItÆs Caldari. Caldari are SUPPOSED to suck for PvP -- their ships and weapons are designed that way. Why do people continue to perpetuate this myth? ------------------------------------------------- "Bustin' makes me feel good!"
OT Smithers	Posted - 2010.09.22 02:24:00 - [1160] Originally by: Zach Donnell Why do people continue to perpetuate this myth? Probably 'suck' is too strong a word but that's okay.

Braitai Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.09.22 05:44:00 - [1161] Originally by: yani dumyat Something that worries me slightly is that Chronotis didn't mention DRF. I'll wait till they hit sisi before making any judgments but if the DRF hasn't been modified then a boost to Ev will do very little in terms of reducing the need for a web. Quoted for importance. Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.22 07:16:00 - [1162] Quote: ItÆs Caldari. Caldari are SUPPOSED to suck for PvP -- their ships and weapons are designed that way. Quoted for amusing levels of stupidity. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
OT Smithers	Posted - 2010.09.22 13:32:00 - [1163] Originally by: OT Smithers Caldari are SUPPOSED to suck for PvP -- their ships and weapons are designed that way. Quoted for.... wait wat?
OT Smithers	Posted - 2010.09.22 14:43:00 - [1164] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Quote: ItÆs Caldari. Caldari are SUPPOSED to suck for PvP -- their ships and weapons are designed that way. Quoted for amusing levels of stupidity. This sentiment is expressed regularly on pretty much every eve forum and subforum: that Caldari are a good (though perhaps not ultimately the best) choice for PvE, and a poor choice for PvP. People say it because it's self evident. Nor is there any reason to assume that this was anything other than a design / balance decision on the part of the devs.
Agent Unknown Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.22 14:54:00 - [1165] Originally by: OT Smithers Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Quote: ItÆs Caldari. Caldari are SUPPOSED to suck for PvP -- their ships and weapons are designed that way. Quoted for amusing levels of stupidity. This sentiment is expressed regularly on pretty much every eve forum and subforum: that Caldari are a good (though perhaps not ultimately the best) choice for PvE, and a poor choice for PvP. People say it because it's self evident. Nor is there any reason to assume that this was anything other than a design / balance decision on the part of the devs. I dunno...the Falcon/Drake/40km blaster Rokh really don't seem that bad to me. Did I mention 100 man drake fleets? 500 dps + a decent buffer + logistics is nothing to laugh at. I forgot to mention that you are in fact reading something that is called a signature.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.22 15:44:00 - [1166] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 22/09/2010 15:55:33 Quote: This sentiment is expressed regularly on pretty much every eve forum and subforum: that Caldari are a good (though perhaps not ultimately the best) choice for PvE, and a poor choice for PvP. People say it because it's self evident. Caldari are fine for PVP. Do you do nothing but RR battleship blobs or have you just not played since 2006? Quote: Nor is there any reason to assume that this was anything other than a design / balance decision on the part of the devs. Please link me to the CCP post saying they actively decided to make Caldari bad at PVP (and if they did say that, they evidently didn't try very hard.) Quote: I dunno...the Falcon/Drake/40km blaster Rokh See also: Scorpion, Raven, Ferox (no, seriously, it's surprisingly workable for its price with some fitting creativity) Rook, Cerberus, Onyx, Caracal, Moa, Blackbird, Harpy, Merlin, Basilisk, Kestrel, Kitsune and whatever else I've missed. Many reading this will already be quoting one or more of the ships listed there along with a but with a decent fitting they're all workable. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.22 16:08:00 - [1167] Originally by: OT Smithers Originally by: Wildcard Trek Edited by: Wildcard Trek on 21/09/2010 14:35:48 Giving Rockets a damage bonus and reducing the rate of fire is about the same thing as doing nothing, rockets are not instant damage like every other weapon system out there, rockets / missiles do not get a damage bonus to the spec skills like every other weapon system out there, instead they get a rof bonus, which means little to nothing in the grand scheme of things. We need to see what the actual numbers are. But yeah, I understand your point. Quote: Buff rockets, really buff rockets, give them a damage increase that is comparable to gunnery, dont lessen the rof, add more capacity to rocket launchers 100% more than now, and change the rocket / missile spec skills to reflect a damage bonus like every other weapon system out there. Basic gunnery skill 5% damage per level Basic missile skill 5% damage per level Gunnery Support Skill Rapid fire skill 4% rof per level Spec gunnery skill 2% damage per level ( Instant damage ) Spec missile skill 2% rof per level ( worthless ) Missile Support Skill Rapid launch skill 3% rof per level ( again less than gunnery, make it 4% as well ) If your gonna buff then go ahead and buff and not tease about a buff. Change missile damage to be comparable to gunnery make the damage per level in the spec skill the same as gunnery and make the rof skill the same as gunnery. Why do rockets / missiles have to suck, they dont. But since they do I quit using them over 2 years ago since they are so horrible, and never looked back. Wasted 12 some Mil SP. ItÆs Caldari. Caldari are SUPPOSED to suck for PvP -- their ships and weapons are designed that way. So true.
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.22 16:11:00 - [1168] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/09/2010 17:14:47 As far as i remember crow IS a combat interceptor - and probably one of worst of them. Crusader/Taranis eats it alive, claw is kinda worse but still decent. Crow is behind the flock. With rocket boost it should still die to crusaders and rail ranises but will have decent chances against blaster ranis. Dunno about claw, i dont fly them (my small AC "skill" comes solely from sabre piloting). The only rocket ship i would be worried about is kestrel as it is kinda nasty already. Everything you say, seems ******ed.
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.22 16:17:00 - [1169] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Hirana Yoshida My hope is that they make them into miniature HAMs. Much higher damage output than lights but requiring tackle/TP for maximum efficiency. To do that they have to increase damage by a factor of 3 as well as decrease RoF by about 1.5 (to get around 3.5s RoF or so). After that all that is needed are small tweaks to Exp.velocity/radius to drop damage to light level unless aforementioned tackle/TP are applied. Tripling the damage, that's crazy talk! And such a weapon system would not scale well - it would be hard to use solo, but a frigate gang with sufficient tackle available would be insane to use any other weapon. Sod "mini-HAMs", just give us rockets that aren't crippled by the first afterburner and that aren't so massively reliant on webbing the opponent. To bad battlecruisers and criusers dont generaly use, after burners, or else hams would face similiar reduction in damage (not as much though). -die thread die
OT Smithers	Posted - 2010.09.22 16:57:00 - [1170] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Please link me to the CCP post saying they actively decided to make Caldari bad at PVP (and if they did say that, they evidently didn't try very hard.) I do not know that there is such a statement. That said, if one were to go to any PvP game on the internet (regardless of genre) and ask the players there to name the most desirable traits for winning, the attributes they list as important or even critical for victory could easily be used as a listing of everything the Caldari lack. Accident? The guys at CCP are professionals. No one at CCP thought that slow ships were better than fast, less drones better than more, delayed DPS better than instant. I could go on, but donÆt need to -- you already know. Does this mean that Caldari are hopeless or useless? Obviously not. They seem to be, as you say yourself, workable. Quote: I dunno...the Falcon/Drake/40km blaster RokhàScorpion, Raven, Feroxàetc Many reading this will already be quoting one or more of the ships listed there along with a but with a decent fitting they're all workable. I think you said it yourself -- you admit that most of the community might chuckle over this list. The term you use is æworkableÆ and this sounds about right. Not the best tool for the job, but workable. And everyone knows it. The only question is whether or not CCP does. I contend that they are professionals who made the Caldari what they are by design. Of course, if this is not the case, then it is up to CCP to correct the error. There is only one way to do that. Perhaps that is their intention with this rocket æfixÆ. Perhaps they intend to make rockets really deadly as a first step towards improving the Caldari overall. We will see.

Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.22 17:07:00 - [1171] @proxyyyy waah waah oh look, special kid came back from asylum with words of wisdom. Shame such great pilot with setups for every ship in this game doesnt even know how to fly caldari boats. Seems you are quite bad pilot then. Go learn more about ships before you comment here Back to ignoring your diarrhea of words. @OT Smithers And what exactly is wrong with caldari ships? I use them on my alt (as she can fly ONLY caldari ships of missile flavour) and had great success with them. Onyx? HIC as any other. Raven? Quite efficient damage dealer in shield gangs. Drake - duh, best BC in game. Tengu? Second only to Proteus tho has tad better damage dealing capability (range/damage types). Flycatcher - prolly second best dictor after sabre (a bit slower than heretic but due to amount of mids it can fit quite a few duelling/ceptor killing setups). Rook/Falcon - i guess nothing to add here. Kitsune - quite fun ship imo, works in its role well. Cerb - best long range HAC ingame, nuff said. T1 ones which Duchess pointed out are also ok (at least missile ones, never used hybrid ones as i dont have skills on alt). Ofc if you use caldari ship in a wrong role then it sucks. Most of caldari ships are kinda stuck to one or two roles and cant be used on every ocassion.
yyyyxorp	Posted - 2010.09.22 17:27:00 - [1172] Originally by: OT Smithers Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Please link me to the CCP post saying they actively decided to make Caldari bad at PVP (and if they did say that, they evidently didn't try very hard.) I do not know that there is such a statement. That said, if one were to go to any PvP game on the internet (regardless of genre) and ask the players there to name the most desirable traits for winning, the attributes they list as important or even critical for victory could easily be used as a listing of everything the Caldari lack. Accident? The guys at CCP are professionals. No one at CCP thought that slow ships were better than fast, less drones better than more, delayed DPS better than instant. I could go on, but donÆt need to -- you already know. Does this mean that Caldari are hopeless or useless? Obviously not. They seem to be, as you say yourself, workable. Quote: I dunno...the Falcon/Drake/40km blaster RokhàScorpion, Raven, Feroxàetc Many reading this will already be quoting one or more of the ships listed there along with a but with a decent fitting they're all workable. I think you said it yourself -- you admit that most of the community might chuckle over this list. The term you use is æworkableÆ and this sounds about right. Not the best tool for the job, but workable. And everyone knows it. The only question is whether or not CCP does. I contend that they are professionals who made the Caldari what they are by design. Of course, if this is not the case, then it is up to CCP to correct the error. There is only one way to do that. Perhaps that is their intention with this rocket æfixÆ. Perhaps they intend to make rockets really deadly as a first step towards improving the Caldari overall. We will see. You are so koolz -die thread die
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.22 17:46:00 - [1173] Quote: you admit that most of the community No, I said many, because a fair few: 1. Cling to the same years-outdated view as you and 2. Dismiss ships like the Moa or Caracal on the spot, having no idea what they are actually capable of. I am saying many will be skeptical because of widespread misconceptions, not because they have any factual basis. Quote: No one at CCP thought that slow ships were better than fast Armour tanked ships of other races frequently end up slower than the equivilent Caldari ship. Compare a Drake and plated Harbinger sometime. Quote: less drones better than more Only on a few ships is this a noticable handicap. They don't need more drones. In fact this is a good time to bring up Gallente. Going by your (lack of) logic here, they fall well behind Caldari in more ways than one. I'll take ok speed and good range anyday over poor speed and lolrange. Quote: delayed DPS better than instant. ... So don't use missiles to snipe with? You also seem blissfully unaware that missile boats are only a part of the lineup. You don't use a Raven to snipe, you get a Rokh, which does the job nicely. Flight time is the tradeoff for the fact that missiles come with naturally higher range than equivilent turrets. To use the Drake as an example again - please show me the battlecruiser capable of firing anywhere from 1-70km+ with consistant damage without a single range mod. Then you get stuff like the Raven which does roughly a Megathron worth of dps with massively higher range. (And by the way, my missiles travel a lot faster than a trimarked mega.) Quote: I could go on, but donÆt need to -- you already know. I know you're very likely to be a troll, probably Proxyyy's alt or something, you're both pretty full of ****. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.22 18:04:00 - [1174] Originally by: OT Smithers I do not know that there is such a statement. That said, if one were to go to any PvP game on the internet (regardless of genre) and ask the players there to name the most desirable traits for winning, the attributes they list as important or even critical for victory could easily be used as a listing of everything the Caldari lack. Accident? The guys at CCP are professionals. No one at CCP thought that slow ships were better than fast, less drones better than more, delayed DPS better than instant. I could go on, but donÆt need to -- you already know. Does this mean that Caldari are hopeless or useless? Obviously not. They seem to be, as you say yourself, workable. Not sure how long you've been playing but this game used to be called Caldari Online. Ravens were the No 1 most feared battleship, you could stack MWD's and keep pace with your missiles as they launched, thus several volleys of missiles would arrive at the same time in one bbq blob of alpha. There was a time when rifter pilots would see a kestrel and think oh ****. Sometimes I think there should be an eve museum where new players get to see all this stuff and old hands can take a walk down memory lane. The current state of Caldari in pvp is all part of the buff/nerf/fotm cycle that CCP's so fond of. I'm actually quite surprised they managed to implement the QR missile changes without making missiles fotm, usually it's a case of buff lasers (OMG everyone fly amarr now!) or buff projectiles (OMG everyone fly matari now!). Caldari will probably have their day again sometime but having cross trained to fly the other races I'd have to say that people moan too much, all the races are usable and have some good ships to chose from. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
OT Smithers	Posted - 2010.09.22 20:07:00 - [1175] Originally by: yani dumyat Not sure how long you've been playing but this game used to be called Caldari Online. (snip) I had heard this, yes. Just how many years ago are we talking about here? Quote: The current state of Caldari in pvp is all part of the buff/nerf/fotm cycle that CCP's so fond of. Okay. Quote: Caldari will probably have their day again sometimeà So essentially you agree: ItÆs not ôtheir dayö now, and hasnÆt been for so long that it is a common consensus that they are a relatively poor choice for PvP.
OT Smithers	Posted - 2010.09.22 20:33:00 - [1176] It is an oft repeated community concensus that Caldari are a good choice for PvE and a poor choice for PvP. The devs, at least in respect to one of the most glaring problems, apparently AGREE with at least part of that concensus, or they wouldn't be fixing rockets. Nuff said.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.22 20:34:00 - [1177] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 22/09/2010 20:35:40 Quote: So essentially you agree: ItÆs not ôtheir dayö now, and hasnÆt been for so long that it is a common consensus that they are a relatively poor choice for PvP. You've been blithering on about your so called consensus for a while now without offering up any backing evidence whatsoever. As I've just shown in the post you conveniently ignored, your "arguments" actually apply better to Gallente than anything else. And re-read his post - he said that CCP managed to indirectly buff missiles without making them overpowered as has been done with other weapons, leaving them good but not the be-all end-all. With the exception of cruises (once rockets are fixed), missiles are fine and Caldari in general are on par. Quote: It is an oft repeated community concensus that Caldari are a good choice for PvE and a poor choice for PvP. The devs, at least in respect to one of the most glaring problems, apparently AGREE with at least part of that concensus, or they wouldn't be fixing rockets. Nuff said. Ok, this confirms it. Troll. My money is definately on Proxyyy's alt now - this was just too stupid for words. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.09.22 22:02:00 - [1178] Originally by: OT Smithers It is an oft repeated community concensus that Caldari are a good choice for PvE and a poor choice for PvP. The devs, at least in respect to one of the most glaring problems, apparently AGREE with at least part of that concensus, or they wouldn't be fixing rockets. For your FYI, rockets ≠ missiles.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.22 23:29:00 - [1179] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Ok, this confirms it. Troll. My money is definately on Proxyyy's alt now - this was just too stupid for words. If it is a proxy alt he's doing better than last time, still perpetuating the thread though. At least it gives us something to argue about till rockets hit sisi. Originally by: OT Smithers So essentially you agree: ItÆs not ôtheir dayö now, and hasnÆt been for so long that it is a common consensus that they are a relatively poor choice for PvP. You're misinterpreting what I said: "People moan too much, all the races are usable and have some good ships to chose from" was meant to point out that forum opinions should be taken with a pinch of salt. Even then I don't think I've seen a thread in the last two years reach any sort of consensus about caldari being poor pvpers. Caldari have got enough good ships that some people can make them work and prefer them to the other races, others just read the forums rather than making up their own mind. Rockets and the hawk are special cases that need looked at, it's not something that defines the whole line up of caldari ships. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Tir Arsil Eve University	Posted - 2010.09.23 05:35:00 - [1180] Regardless of all the drama and whining by others, I'm pleased to see CCP providing us small time Caldari PvP pilots some attention. The quality and quantity of my pleasure will of course be dependent on how much the rocket buff actually changes things. Tir

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.23 08:10:00 - [1181] Originally by: Tir Arsil Regardless of all the drama and whining by others, I'm pleased to see CCP providing us small time Caldari PvP pilots some attention. The quality and quantity of my pleasure will of course be dependent on how much the rocket buff actually changes things. Tir Well on an optimistic note - take a look at the Hookbill now. Besides being hard to fit the dual web setup is very effective, showing what rockets could be and hopefully will be with proper attention. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
Yankunytjatjara Amarr Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.09.23 11:15:00 - [1182] End of the week approaches quickly, anybody found the new stuff? Or was it yet again a CCP troll (best troll)? And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.23 12:30:00 - [1183] Originally by: Yankunytjatjara End of the week approaches quickly, anybody found the new stuff? Or was it yet again a CCP troll (best troll)? No changes on there last night but I wouldn't expect anything till the end of next week at the earliest, anything before then is a bonus. If Chronotis has to wait for other devs to finish their work on sisi before he can implement the changes it won't be possible for him to give an exact date. We've waited two years so a week or two wouldn't make much difference, am very much looking forward to seeing the changes though :) _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.09.23 16:38:00 - [1184] Originally by: yani dumyat Originally by: Yankunytjatjara End of the week approaches quickly, anybody found the new stuff? Or was it yet again a CCP troll (best troll)? No changes on there last night but I wouldn't expect anything till the end of next week at the earliest, anything before then is a bonus. If Chronotis has to wait for other devs to finish their work on sisi before he can implement the changes it won't be possible for him to give an exact date. We've waited two years so a week or two wouldn't make much difference, am very much looking forward to seeing the changes though :) I've waited for a broad band connection for 8 years and I can tell you that the last week before I finally got it was in every way worse than the rest of those 8 years :D
Crias Taylor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.09.23 22:01:00 - [1185] Originally by: CCP Chronotis a quick update - the first set of balance changes to rockets should end up on sisi next week (possibly earlier but at the very least next week). For now as we mentioned previously, none of the changes should be too surprising, the explosion velocity got a boost along with the overall damage (RoF decreased whilst rocket damage increased) alongside increase in clip size). Specific numbers and detailed info on the changes will be posted next week in a sticky thread here in this forum at the to get the testing and feedback kicked off. You forgot about blasters... For over half a decade.
Henri Rearden Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.23 23:32:00 - [1186] woohoo! Thank you CCP, now I won't regret training Amarr nearly as much. And I might train for Caldari Assault ships too. :-)
Kail Storm Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.24 07:16:00 - [1187] Originally by: Crias Taylor Originally by: CCP Chronotis a quick update - the first set of balance changes to rockets should end up on sisi next week (possibly earlier but at the very least next week). For now as we mentioned previously, none of the changes should be too surprising, the explosion velocity got a boost along with the overall damage (RoF decreased whilst rocket damage increased) alongside increase in clip size). Specific numbers and detailed info on the changes will be posted next week in a sticky thread here in this forum at the to get the testing and feedback kicked off. You forgot about blasters... For over half a decade. If you played Eve before 2008 Blasters owned for almost the longest. They were BBQ`ers for the longest time, but as Player size of gangs like the Naptrain AKA NC went up blaster effect went down because its hard to fight 25 diff targets and have to MWD to each one to be effective, You new goonies Naping with NC are killing blasters yourselves -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2010.09.24 07:46:00 - [1188] Originally by: CCP Chronotis a quick update - the first set of balance changes to rockets should end up on sisi next week (possibly earlier but at the very least next week). For now as we mentioned previously, none of the changes should be too surprising, the explosion velocity got a boost along with the overall damage (RoF decreased whilst rocket damage increased) alongside increase in clip size). Specific numbers and detailed info on the changes will be posted next week in a sticky thread here in this forum at the to get the testing and feedback kicked off. Seems just like what i was suggesting two years ago... -- Thanks CCP for cu
Debby Dallas	Posted - 2010.09.24 13:38:00 - [1189] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Well on an optimistic note - take a look at the Hookbill now. Besides being hard to fit the dual web setup is very effective, showing what rockets could be and hopefully will be with proper attention. SHHHH!
Lemmy Kravitz	Posted - 2010.09.24 13:40:00 - [1190] I use rockets in my fits as heat syncs. they're there for what fail dps they can give. But mostly it's just there to soak up heat.

Sharton	Posted - 2010.09.24 14:06:00 - [1191] Originally by: Tonto Auri Seems just like what i was suggesting two years ago... Do you ever have something positive to say, or are you always an a$$ hat? By the way, you might want to try spell check once in a while.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2010.09.24 18:27:00 - [1192] Originally by: Sharton Originally by: Tonto Auri Seems just like what i was suggesting two years ago... Do you ever have something positive to say, or are you always an a$$ hat? By the way, you might want to try spell check once in a while. Who are you anyway, that I should consider your opinion important? Do you have anything meaningful to contribute to this topic? These changes I've suggested @2008-08-26, I still have file uploaded if you want to check it. -- Thanks CCP for cu
Sharton	Posted - 2010.09.24 19:23:00 - [1193] Originally by: Tonto Auri Who are you anyway, that I should consider your opinion important? Do you have anything meaningful to contribute to this topic? These changes I've suggested @2008-08-26, I still have file uploaded if you want to check it. Well, seeing how youÆre a noob, I donÆt consider you as having an opinion at all. Off topic :P
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.25 08:30:00 - [1194] Originally by: Sharton Well, seeing how youÆre a noob, I donÆt consider you as having an opinion at all. Off topic :P Does anyone have the phone number for proxy's care home? I think the mental patients must be getting unsupervised access to the internet again. Back on topic there's a new build on sisi, I'm getting a python error when I try to patch so no idea if it contains the rocket fix or not. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2010.09.25 17:55:00 - [1195] Originally by: yani dumyat Back on topic there's a new build on sisi, I'm getting a python error when I try to patch so no idea if it contains the rocket fix or not. Edit - no rocket fix on sisi for this build. It's "old" build. Based on different branch and probably contains even less "features". -- Thanks CCP for cu
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.26 14:27:00 - [1196] Chronotis - a while ago it was also hinted that light missiles are getting a look - any news on that? I could live without a buff to those if rockets were fixed but just wondering if there's anything in the works for them. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.09.26 21:19:00 - [1197] Imo light missiles require explosion velocity boost much more than rockets.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.27 20:20:00 - [1198] Page 2 is still blasphemy. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.28 21:52:00 - [1199] Bump. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
OT Smithers	Posted - 2010.09.29 01:48:00 - [1200] I am very curious to see this "fix." Will it be enough to lift Caldari frigates up into balance with the other races? Will it be enough to compensate for the slowest frigates in the game or the lack of drones? And once Rockets are addressed -- assuming they are -- will CCP then turn their attention towards tuning the rest of the Caldari line up?

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.09.29 10:59:00 - [1201] Quote: will CCP then turn their attention towards tuning the rest of the Caldari line up? You mean cruises? Those and rockets are the only really broken missiles. What exactly is so bad besides those? The Eagle springs immediately to mind but that's an issue with rails more than the ship. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.29 18:08:00 - [1202] One Year Seven Months And Six Days Farewell dear thread you have served your purpose, For the geeks, trolls and lurkers of the rocket thread circus. The borking of rockets did inspire, Some entertaining geek vs geek internet fire. Chronotis is now at the programmers anvil, Hammering the roflket meme intangible. I see his avatar's hair is somewhat gray, It wouldn't surprise if we've made his RL hair go the same way. Hopefully this was not in vain, Thank you all for your efforts to make rockets useful again. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
VanNostrum	Posted - 2010.10.01 10:24:00 - [1203] Originally by: yani dumyat One Year Seven Months And Six Days Farewell dear thread you have served your purpose, For the geeks, trolls and lurkers of the rocket thread circus. The borking of rockets did inspire, Some entertaining geek vs geek internet fire. Chronotis is now at the programmers anvil, Hammering the roflket meme intangible. I see his avatar's hair is somewhat gray, It wouldn't surprise if we've made his RL hair go the same way. Hopefully this was not in vain, Thank you all for your efforts to make rockets useful again. Rockets are useful again? When did this happen??? Any stats?
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.10.01 12:04:00 - [1204] Originally by: VanNostrum Rockets are useful again? When did this happen??? Any stats? Try reading the stickies next time _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.


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