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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
Orb Lati
Minmatar
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.07 23:31:00 -
[631]
*****ing about the skill requirements / training times is a non issue, and a waste of this thread.
I (and i dear say many minmatar pilots) don't care about having to train longer, its a characteristic of the race we are playing.
What matters is that at the end of the training we end up with equipment thats worth all that effort.
"We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
isdisco3
Reaper Industries
Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.05.08 01:46:00 -
[632]
 Originally by: Seishi Maru
If you started a character just for capital ships FOCUSING on Minmatar you are really not smart at all. Not because of training time but simply because their ships were completely inferior.
lol. so your argument is, essentially:
"yes, the nag sucks. it has always sucked. but people who have the misfortune of being minmatar might like it now, slightly. nobody else will, but that's ok. that's how the game should be."
you're an awful troll lol. go back to flying drakes.
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VoiceInTheDesert
Zebra Corp
Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2009.05.08 08:00:00 -
[633]
I'm just gonna keep pointing out that the Niddy tanks better with shields (meaning all minny caps use shields) and see if anyone notices.
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Juliette DuBois
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Posted - 2009.05.08 08:05:00 -
[634]
Sure, if you are looking at personal tank only. But in a group on mainly armor tanking and RRing carriers? No way.
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aevistyne
Caldari
Solarflare Heavy Industries
Doctrine.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 10:00:00 -
[635]
not to mention the cap instability you'd have using the mids for a shield tank rather than cap recharge when it comes to running remote reps on the nid. Saying its a shield tanker is the same as saying the thanatos is a shield tanker.
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EvE +NLINE - T+TALHELLDEATH SUPPORTER |
Tom Hanks
Raype Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 10:36:00 -
[636]
Boost Citadel explosion velocity so they can actually do damage against a mother ship for the love of all that is holy. A capital speed tanking a torpedo the size of a football field is utterly stupid. Do they pack citadels with low explosives instead of high explosives or something? The kind of damage they do I think the warhead is filled with gasoline or firecrackers.
Caldari Racial Purity
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Seishomaru
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:11:00 -
[637]
Originally by: isdisco3
Originally by: Seishi Maru
If you started a character just for capital ships FOCUSING on Minmatar you are really not smart at all. Not because of training time but simply because their ships were completely inferior.
lol. so your argument is, essentially:
"yes, the nag sucks. it has always sucked. but people who have the misfortune of being minmatar might like it now, slightly. nobody else will, but that's ok. that's how the game should be."
you're an awful troll lol. go back to flying drakes.
nope.. just pointing that you are complaining about a problem taht doe s not exist! IF you have a normal minmatar character you already has missile and shield skills (or you are fail). This woudl only affect people training from zero direclty towards capitals.. and this does nto EXIST with minmatar characters. At most 1 in 20 of the characters made direclty to capitals are minmatar. So the problem you complain doe snto exist at all!
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RookieEG
Sun Lin Tong
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:25:00 -
[638]
as every1 like to say here - i'm a descent minni pilot, i have trained armor and shield tanking, both projectiles, drones and missiles. BUT - i don't ***ken what to train torpedoes to 5lvl and waste 20+ days on tactical shield manipulation. this skills are mostly needed for raven pilots. minni ship doesn't needs them at all.
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Gloria Lewis
Caldari
lolpatrol B-D
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Posted - 2009.05.08 14:51:00 -
[639]
Originally by: Seishi Maru
If you want to waste your time doing character sonly for capital ships than its not my problem. If you started a character just for capital ships FOCUSING on Minmatar you are really not smart at all. Not because of training time but simply because their ships were completely inferior. Any NORMAL minmatar pilot will have very little extra to train to get to a naglfar when compared to a normal a ammar pilot have to get to a revelation. That is what matters.
This game was not and should never be balanced around idea of people that make characters only for capital ships to then resale them...
And even your numbers prove my point. its a LIE that naglfar needs 2 time s more skill points. Its a 15% difference! That is a SMALL difference. Smaller than the difference of what a gallente character needs to train for his battleships and a minmatar character needs to train for his battleships.
Notice when I said "a new character"? When you remove all the shared skills (jump drive calibrations, capacitor skills, everything in spaceship command and so on) the difference is still going to be 121 days. It's still going to be 4 months. But it's no longer 15%, it's something much more (it takes too much effort to figure the exact number out)
Also your troll-fu is very weak; work on it or quit it
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Incantare
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Posted - 2009.05.08 18:31:00 -
[640]
Edited by: Incantare on 08/05/2009 18:36:17
From another thread:
Originally by: Vitrael
So I trained a Phoenix a few months ago. The moment it was ready I hopped on Sisi and started pew pewing and realized that the missiles go about 1km/s and can't hit anything that moves for any damage at all. The ship is so laughably bad that I sold the character.
Citadel torps need a big boost for both the Phoenix and Naglfar's sake. It's really pretty sad how awful those dreads are compared to the others.
It's great that you're finally boosting the Nag. It's also good that citadels are getting a velocity boost.
But until explosion velocity on citadels gets massively increased the Nag and Phoenix will remain subpar in capital fights.
Aknowledging this issue is the least you could do.
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darkmancer
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Posted - 2009.05.08 19:05:00 -
[641]
Originally by: RookieEG
as every1 like to say here - i'm a descent minni pilot, i have trained armor and shield tanking, both projectiles, drones and missiles. BUT - i don't ***ken what to train torpedoes to 5lvl and waste 20+ days on tactical shield manipulation. this skills are mostly needed for raven pilots. minni ship doesn't needs them at all.
Tactical Shield Manipulation 5 is of no use to Caldari pilots either. Indeed itÆs actually a bad skill to train as a low amount of shield bleed is beneficial as it maintains shields longer and allows for more shield regen to kick in (mainly theoretical, in practice I suspect it wouldnÆt make much difference in 99% of cases).
The whole shield bleed systems is vestigial which serves little except to create a more complex calculations for the server .
TSM 5 is just a road block skill for capitals, although why itÆs required I donÆt know as capital armour reps have no skill requirements you wouldnÆt have out normal ôeverydayö armour tanking pvp. The Capital Shield booster requirements should be shield operation 5 and shield management 5 imo.
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There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong |
Orb Lati
Minmatar
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.08 21:19:00 -
[642]
Originally by: RookieEG
BUT - i don't ***ken what to train torpedoes to 5lvl ..... minni ship doesn't needs them at all.
How can you say that...Get your typhoon throwing RAGE at your hapless prey then come back and retract that statement. 
"We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
prathe
Minmatar
Omega Enterprises
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.05.09 01:29:00 -
[643]
Edited by: prathe on 09/05/2009 01:29:30
Originally by: Midjutetur
Originally by: Jelmer
So, my suggestion would be - remove the missile slots and make this ship pure projectile. Thank you.
PLEASE
oh yes this would be aweesome but it has to be four turrets
signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
why dont you just tell me ? |
Mrsticks
Minmatar
RNCGM Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.09 08:05:00 -
[644]
Prohaps a Change in Dir...
Howabout a change to XL Projectile ammo.
Make them do a small Debuff to Resistances.
This Debuff Would Grow over time but like shield recharge would Recharge faster as it went taward zero.
The Torps Would be there to Deal extra Damage.
Also We need Assult Cruise missle Launchers 
Long Live TEXAS! Texans join the Texas channel in game plz.
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Hawk Firestorm
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Posted - 2009.05.09 10:02:00 -
[645]
I can understand why people say why the Nag shouldn't have 2 wep types.
No other dread has such a requirement, there's a few things that could be done to change this by either making all dreads be able to use either all gus or all missiles or a combo dependant on the users preference, but it shouldn't be forced on them.
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pocnitoarea
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Posted - 2009.05.09 11:15:00 -
[646]
Edited by: pocnitoarea on 09/05/2009 11:16:06
Originally by: Gloria Lewis
Originally by: Random Womble
bad post
Also for the person saying the difference was slight, here, have some numbers (and words)
It takes 635 days for a new player to train a Revelation.
It takes 756 for a new player to train a Naglfar.
(=121 days or 4 months of difference)
The Revelation pilot can also jump straight into an Archon and tank away like nobodys business
The Naglfar pilot has to train up armor tanking if he wishes to fly a Nidhoggur, adding some 40 days more to the difference in training times. (No your unique-snowflake-shieldtank-nidhoggur doesn't count)
tl;dr a Naglfar takes 4 months longer to train and has nothing to show for it. Except, ofcourse, the vertical aspect
this tbh; the good part in all this training is that a mini pilot will need only caldari bs lvl V to be ready to fly a pheonix, and when phoenixes get a boost... who knows, lol 
it's maibe a nice ideea to have some versatile ships, but when it comes to capital ships, training req become just insane compared to other dreads; and at the end you'll get a middle class dread(more like the low middle), with some dmg and worst tank available on the market; at least make him 4/7/7, that will be a nice reward after all that training
4/7/7 and everyone will be happy! 
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Vlip
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.09 16:37:00 -
[647]
Quote:
at least make him 4/7/7, that will be a nice reward after all that training
4/7/7 and everyone will be happy!
This!
If we have to go through all that trouble to fly it, at least make it worth it.
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Cain m
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.05.09 20:20:00 -
[648]
All it needs is a 20% bonus to BCU and Gyrostab effectiveness per level of Matari Dread and some extra CPU. Fit 2 arty, 2 city torps, a siege mod, a T2 invul, one T2 hardener of each type, a DCU, 1 faction BCU, 1 faction Gryo, 3 T2 reinforced bulkheads.
This will give it a very nice buffer as well as decent DPS. Granted you don't always want a buffer.
Maybe a 50% reduction in siege module duration and fuel consumption? Maybe give the siege mod a script that decreases siege mod duration and bonuses from it, while having the nag not be effected by it.
Maybe significantly lower jump fuel cost?
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Foot M
FM Corp
Dead Mans Hand
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Posted - 2009.05.09 20:59:00 -
[649]
Edited by: Foot M on 09/05/2009 20:59:09
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
The Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I will have some changes to base it of the 1400mm artillery:
* Rate of Fire decreased to 35.438 secs (from 28.688)
The 6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I will have similar changes made to keep the original scaling inline:
* Rate of Fire decreased to 11.813 secs (from 8.438)
Hi,
Could you clarify the above from the first post in this thread please.
I assmue a typo, to decrease a ROF you need to have a lower ROF post change and this shows that its actually an increase in ROF.
if the ROF is increased my simple calculations takes the base damage of the nag from 1299.799 dps to 1446.753 dps (11.3% increase)
if the ROF is decreased "kept the same" my simple calculations takes the base damage of the nag from 1299.799 dps to 1659.22 dps (27.6% increase)
calcs based on 3500mm siege with emp.
I would very much like to see the ROF on the turrets stay at the lower figure but it would be nice to have some clarity.
Either way thanks for giving us more dps on the nag =)
Foot M
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
This day is called the feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day... |
Bobbechk
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.05.09 21:59:00 -
[650]
Edited by: Bobbechk on 09/05/2009 22:01:24
Edited by: Bobbechk on 09/05/2009 21:59:57
Originally by: darkmancer
Change in bonus's (5% rof 5%ken -> 10 % damage, 5% shield resist/7.5% boost amount, less dps but easier not to lose volleys of missiles + tough tank)?
so you want to take the best tanking dread and make it tank 50% better?
while you take the highest alpha dread and add 25% moore alpha?
and at the same time miss every aspect of what you said was wrong about the ship
(explosion velocity bonus anyone?)
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prefectro
Minmatar
Amok.
Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.05.10 03:00:00 -
[651]
Originally by: Seishomaru
Originally by: isdisco3
Originally by: Seishi Maru
If you started a character just for capital ships FOCUSING on Minmatar you are really not smart at all. Not because of training time but simply because their ships were completely inferior.
lol. so your argument is, essentially:
"yes, the nag sucks. it has always sucked. but people who have the misfortune of being minmatar might like it now, slightly. nobody else will, but that's ok. that's how the game should be."
you're an awful troll lol. go back to flying drakes.
nope.. just pointing that you are complaining about a problem taht doe s not exist! IF you have a normal minmatar character you already has missile and shield skills (or you are fail). This woudl only affect people training from zero direclty towards capitals.. and this does nto EXIST with minmatar characters. At most 1 in 20 of the characters made directly to capitals are minmatar. So the problem you complain doe snto exist at all!
You are missing what people are saying completely so let me try to help you. A normal Minmatar PVP character will not have Tactical Shield Manipulation V trained (needed for the Capital Shield Booster) which is a 20 day skill. An average Minmatar pilot would be a ****** to have this trained up as it has zero use as no sub cap Matar ships requires this skill. And OF COURSE people do not create Minmatar Capital alts, one of the reasons is because the EXTRA TRAINING IS SO DAMN LONG coupled with the fact that the Matar caps are the worst. And even though the Matar dread is being buffed, people still will not train them on an Alt because of all the extra training time. What people are trying to get through your head is that they want the training time to be the same as it is for other races so that maybe people will train Matar capital alts also. Hope this helps to clarify things for you.
You are welcome.
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aldarrin
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Posted - 2009.05.10 04:48:00 -
[652]
If I can't using tracking disruptors against sieged Revelations / Moros / Naglfars, then people should be able to smartbomb my Phoenix's torps. I don't particularly care how to explain it RP wise. It isn't balanced if 3/4 of Dread weapons are impervious to outside interference but my torps are.
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Flame on. |
Uedel
Minmatar
Lyonesse.
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.10 09:59:00 -
[653]
Remove Torps please and make it turret only so we can finaly be on par with dmg mods etc
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General Paul
Atomic Heroes
Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.05.10 11:45:00 -
[654]
to the guy whineing about tactical shield manipulation 5, its hardly any use on a caldari char either, if your at 10% shields ur going down in a ****storm.
Changeing the skill requirements as someone said already would be a grave insult to people who spent 20 days training for that 5% extra bleedthrough damage rubbish.
I agree that the naglefar is poor because one of its weapontypes is the horrendous torpedoe, the phoenix is forced to use these as its main weapon type though =/
A none speed fitted Thanatos can speed tank a sieged phoenix's torps to the point where they do no effective damage, this is plain silly. One of the torps is described as nothing less than a baby nuclear warhead, how exactly do you outrun a nuke at < 100m/sec
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.05.10 20:14:00 -
[655]
Citadel torps vs moving cap ships
We acknowledge that citadel torps do not perform as well as turrets against cap ships which can move. We are looking at possible changes that could help in this area, many of which you have already mentioned such as a boost to explosion velocity or introduction of citadel cruise missiles to cite another common idea to reducing the explosion velocity penalty whilst in siege. Nothing is changing presently in this area but it is being looked at.
Tactical shield manipulation V pre-req makes us emo
It is true that this skill is not so useful and pretty much the only reason to train this skill to 5 is so you can use capital shield boosters. We are open to possibly changing this to shield management 5 (a skill most of you should have and find more useful) but this does not help those of you who have gone through the pain already, only potential future naglfar pilots or those who specifically armour tanked their ships only and might be branching towards the phoenix for example.
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Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.05.10 20:34:00 -
[656]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
but this does not help those of you who have gone through the pain already, only potential future naglfar pilots or those who specifically armour tanked their ships only and might be branching towards the phoenix for example.
Considering that i never got Survey V reinbursed when salvaging requirements got changed, i don't see the problem. At least vets have something to brag about. ("Back in the days, when capital shieldbooster required....we also had to order every single turret to shoot through a command line interpreter, and sometimes the AOE would...")
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Originally by: CCP Prism X
In New Eden, EVE wins you.
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Ragel Tropxe
The Older Gamers
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.10 20:43:00 -
[657]
this is getting rather off topic, and as someone who has both TSM 5 and Shield Management 5 the proposed change to the requirement of cap shield boosters doesnt affect me.
If youre going to change the requirements, why not make TSM a valuable skill (to reward thoe of us that have trained it) - otherwise itll just be another pointless skill to train - in fact there is an argument that it hurts your shield tank!.
How about TSM giving a shield resist bonus? or a shield capacity bonus?
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2009.05.10 21:04:00 -
[658]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Citadel torps vs moving cap ships
We acknowledge that citadel torps do not perform as well as turrets against cap ships which can move. We are looking at possible changes that could help in this area, many of which you have already mentioned such as a boost to explosion velocity or introduction of citadel cruise missiles to cite another common idea to reducing the explosion velocity penalty whilst in siege. Nothing is changing presently in this area but it is being looked at.
I made a spreadsheet about missile damage so I could understand the way missiles work now and the resulting graph I got is on eve-files, what it shows is damage from a citadel torp from a sieged naglfar(all lvl 5's). Assuming the formula found by the community is correct, it would appear that damage from missiles falls away rapidly and then slows down instead of falling away slowly similar to how turret falloff functions.
This rapid drop in effect is noticeable on every missile type, other missiles that are affected by this seem to be for instance rockets, which have great trouble hitting frigates for good damage. A few m/s difference in velocity can mean a big difference in damage.
Of course this is assuming the formula reverse engineered from ingame data is accurate, I don't have a reason to believe it is not though, some form of confirmation would be nice pwetty please  .
( formula: Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(ln(drf)/ln(oaeDRS))), with oaeDRS being 5.5 )
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Tactical shield manipulation V pre-req makes us emo
It is true that this skill is not so useful and pretty much the only reason to train this skill to 5 is so you can use capital shield boosters. We are open to possibly changing this to shield management 5 (a skill most of you should have and find more useful) but this does not help those of you who have gone through the pain already, only potential future naglfar pilots or those who specifically armour tanked their ships only and might be branching towards the phoenix for example.
ooh ooh, something that could make this skill "usefull" is for shields to start leaking earlier, say at 75% they can start leaking and this skill reduces that to 0% at lvl 5 
-- stuff -- |
Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.05.10 22:46:00 -
[659]
Edited by: Blane Xero on 10/05/2009 22:48:36
Make TSM increase the peak recharge zone (which is currently about 35-25%?) go all the way from 0%-35% at level 5. (20%-35% at one, 15%-35% at two, 10%-35% at three, 5%-35% at four, 0%-35% at five)
This effectively means a Passive shield tanked ship can regenerate just as well at 0% as an active tanked ship could, instead of the current "Past 30% all is lost"
And then you can rebalance Passive shield tanked ships while you're at it so that they tank on-par (or a little more/less as you see fit) with active tanked ships.
______________________________________________
Haruhiist since December 2008
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Incantare
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Posted - 2009.05.11 00:17:00 -
[660]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Citadel torps vs moving cap ships
We acknowledge that citadel torps do not perform as well as turrets against cap ships which can move. We are looking at possible changes that could help in this area, many of which you have already mentioned such as a boost to explosion velocity or introduction of citadel cruise missiles to cite another common idea to reducing the explosion velocity penalty whilst in siege. Nothing is changing presently in this area but it is being looked at.
\o/
That said I do have one comment: those solutions aren't mutally exclusive. Ideally you should both fix citadels against moving caps and introduce capital cruise as a long range option.
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