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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
559
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Posted - 2012.05.10 16:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
Alright folks, as stated in the latest FW blog, there are certain points in Factional Warfare that still need to be looked at after Inferno.
One of these are the NPCs; we all have grown to hate them as they jam you non stop for 5 minutes, or laugh at them when speed tanking them while capturing a complex. So, let's try to find ways to make them interesting here.
We have some ideas floating around, one of them is to:
- Upgrade their AI with target switching mechanics - just like Sleepers and Incursion Sanshas
- Revamp their attributes to be more on par with PvP fits, while still allowing new pilots to compete (FW barrier of entry is supposed to be low)
- Cut their respawn numbers - they should be used as an activity if there is no PvP going around, but not impair PvP when it is happening
- Possibly use them to assist a losing faction; for example, have tougher NPCs than usual spawn for a faction with less solar systems, or attack opposing members at gates (not neutrals)
Remember, all of these are just high-pitch ideas at the moment that are posted here to get your constructive input and a discussion going. So stay cool and remember, the spice must flow.
Another point where your feedback would be most appreciated is regarding your own experience facing them as they are right now:
- Think a FW NPC is plain broken, crap or annoying? Post its exact name here, and explain why and what. Again, please remember, this discussion is about FW NPCs, not mission / deadspace / Incursion / Sleepers or whatever (we know there are a lot of them to fix in other features as well, but let's not get lost here shall we?).
- What do you think about Navy NPCs when you go to enemy high-security space? What would you do about that?
- What about the standing mechanic that govern NPC attack behavior? When do you feel they should engage you? Low standings? Capturing a complex?
Thanks for your feedback. |
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Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
153
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Posted - 2012.05.10 16:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
A common and recurring complaint I hear from friends in FW is summed up pretty easily in two words: NPC EWAR.
More specifically: Amarr Militia: "OMG my frigate is suddenly a stationary battleship because the Minmatar NPCs have hax webifiers and target painters!" Caldari Militia: "OMG I can't target anything because the Gallente NPCs are damping my targeting range down to 5km!" Gallente Militia: "OMG I can't target anything because the Caldari NPCs are permajamming me!" Minmatar Militia: "OMG I can't hit anything because I was already fighting in falloff and the Amarr NPCs are tracking distrupting me!" (alternatively: "lol, tracking disruption doesn't work on stealth bombers, n00b NPCs") |
Shandir
Indigo Archive
127
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Posted - 2012.05.10 17:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Have you considered coding NPCs to simulate hunting players in space, perhaps having a somewhat random timer of sitting still where NPCs will pretend to be probing you down, and then launch a small gang to fight. Also interesting would be if they could warp in to assist friendly fleets under attack, or try to gank roaming enemy gangs.
I ask because when I first heard about the sleepers, I thought that was what they did - that they came looking for you when you trespassed in their territory, and it sounded awesome.
It would be nice, generally, if the NPCs could start to take a more active role than just being floating targets - why can't they want to kick our asses sometimes?
Edit: FW Noob Disclaimer - I have not joined FW *yet* but these recent changes intrugue me and I may join soon. |
Kurai Okala
Okala Corp
18
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Posted - 2012.05.10 17:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
Are you only interested in FW Complex NPCs or are you also looking at FW Mission NPCs?
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Denuo Secus
50
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Posted - 2012.05.10 18:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:...
Cut their respawn numbers - they should be used as an activity if there is no PvP going around, but not impair PvP when it is happening...
This!
It's the only issue I have with NPCs in FW plexes: they disturb my PvP. I enjoy solo and very small scale PvP in FW. So if we're - for example - two against 5 WTs...additional NPCs are a very irritating factor. Sometimes we just cannot enter a hostile plex for PvP because there are 10+ NPCs. |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
3
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Posted - 2012.05.10 19:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
If we don't want NPCs messing up PvP (I don't), but don't want to ditch them entirely (I don't), a possible solution would be to make the plex have two rooms: one with the NPCs and one with the actual plex timer. Hostile militia that warp to the plex and take the accel gate in wind up in the first room and need to kill all the NPCs to unlock a second gate. Friendly militia just go straight to the final room. (This also gives an advantage to defenders who respond quickly or attackers who can clear the NPCs quickly).
This doesn't solve the issue of NPC difficulty/numbers, but it does mean that you're not going to lose a fight because the rats had you webbed or TDed. It also prevents people from AFK speed tanking plexes, since you will have to kill the rats. |
Kurai Okala
Okala Corp
18
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Posted - 2012.05.10 19:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:If we don't want NPCs messing up PvP (I don't), but don't want to ditch them entirely (I don't), a possible solution would be to make the plex have two rooms: one with the NPCs and one with the actual plex timer. Hostile militia that warp to the plex and take the accel gate in wind up in the first room and need to kill all the NPCs to unlock a second gate. Friendly militia just go straight to the final room. (This also gives an advantage to defenders who respond quickly or attackers who can clear the NPCs quickly).
This doesn't solve the issue of NPC difficulty/numbers, but it does mean that you're not going to lose a fight because the rats had you webbed or TDed. It also prevents people from AFK speed tanking plexes, since you will have to kill the rats.
Mixing NPCs with PVP has always seemed like a bad idea to me but I don't want to see FW NPCs removed all together either so I like this idea.
Also, another +1 to reducing NPC numbers but improving their AI to make them mimic PVP. I don't think FW players should have to gimp their PVP effectiveness to effeciently deal with enemy NPCs (get those PVE fits out of a PVP feature) |
Fidelium Mortis
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
75
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Posted - 2012.05.10 23:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Morwen Lagann wrote:A common and recurring complaint I hear from friends in FW is summed up pretty easily in two words: NPC EWAR.
More specifically: Amarr Militia: "OMG my frigate is suddenly a stationary battleship because the Minmatar NPCs have hax webifiers and target painters!" Caldari Militia: "OMG I can't target anything because the Gallente NPCs are damping my targeting range down to 5km!" Gallente Militia: "OMG I can't target anything because the Caldari NPCs are permajamming me!" Minmatar Militia: "OMG I can't hit anything because I was already fighting in falloff and the Amarr NPCs are tracking distrupting me!" (alternatively: "lol, tracking disruption doesn't work on stealth bombers, n00b NPCs")
As far as FW Plexes go: Um... actually these aren't the sentiments at all. For the most part the main frustration with EWAR is with Caldari rats which can be particularly nasty if they happen to get multiple jamming cycles off, and additionally they use missiles which makes it tougher to mitigate NPC damage during a fight. Overall, this is compounded by introducing fairly standard PvE fights as the backdrop for PvP activities, which gives offensive pilots a significant advantage since they can fit specifically for PvP. Plus with their current implementation, FW plexes are just plain boring and really lack a meaningful objective. In theory they should feel like an assault on an enemy facility, but in practice it's a mind numbing timed grind.
The only good thing the FW plexes have going for them is they provide a way to accrue navy tags, and do a pretty good job of promoting skirmish PvP.
Now for some suck mitigation: 1. Do we need/want FW plex (or general navy) NPCs? I think that unless they convey at least some semblance of the wider conflict they should be removed.
2. NPCs should actually do something. For instance, could a FW plex be a mini-scenario, like a disabled freighter that has RR and a small defense fleet that is guarding against an opposing strike force?
3. NPCs should help - not hinder - immersion. So yes, fewer NPCs with more advanced AI would be a good start. Also why not have both NPC navies represented in the FW plexes (witth the advantage to the defenders)? This reinforces the idea of an active conflict, and you might be able to introduce some weak friendly NPC RR that GTFOs once an enemy player joins the fray, which makes the plexes a bit more PvP fit friendly (especially buffer tanks).
Just some thoughts...
ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
87
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Posted - 2012.05.11 03:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
NPC's could all be the grossly overpowered Concord vessels if only the AI/behaviour was coded right. Not sure if the actual ships need much changing at all to be honest, eWar could do with a downwards tweak but I am hoping that the eWar revision will make any such change pointless .. you are still planning on revising eWar I take it?
Have them protect that which they were meant to first and foremost .. the complex, aka. timer, instead of everything with the proper standings.
- If a person enters capture range (CR), check standings, if hated -> shoot him down. - If a person leaves capture range, but has taken no hostile action -> keep him locked but do nothing further. - If more than one with hated standings are in CR, then use threat list akin to the one used by Incursion Sansha. - If a person is in plex but not in CR, lock him up -> do nothing further. - If a person is in plex but not in CR and takes hostile action against guards -> shoot him down but never leave striking distance of timer which is to be protected. * Basically have them ignore anyone who is not a direct threat to the plex or its personnel.
Add some sentries around the timer to assist with LR targets (especially in Gallente plexes where NPC weapons are worse than BB guns) and to make the solo AB frig capture an impossibility. It is a military installation damnit, surely they have some gun emplacements .. even the smallest of the small pirate installations have some defensive guns in place!
The NPCs are now something to do when no pew is present and they don't interfere with the pew when it is (provided it doesn't happen on the timer ). |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
42
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Posted - 2012.05.11 09:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
You could combine military NPCGÇÖs Amarr/Caldari and Gallente/ Minmatar joint fleets, this increases the number of damage types and weapon types a player faces and sits better for omni tanking.
Smaller smarter spawns. Damage output balanced for Omni tanks.
Link NPC strength to the system upgrade level; say NPCGÇÖs start at reduced Damage/ EHP to current level with incrementing stats at each level, Introduce NPC E-war at say level 3. This way as a system loses its system upgrades the plexes become easier and the offensive should gain momentum.
Change how tags work, itGÇÖs bad enough I have to orbit a timer but I also have to go round and pick up tags from each NPC just to get them for the LP Store.
Have them engage neutrals as if they are the enemy.
Spread aggro, target new ships so the first ship cannot just tank the spawn.
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Fidelium Mortis
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
76
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Posted - 2012.05.11 17:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
Concerning Navy Ships in High Sec:
If locked docking mechanic is implemented, I would suggest reducing the effectiveness of the high-sec NPC navies, in particular their web/neuting abilities. It also depends on how GÇ£safeGÇ¥ high-sec should feel for players that sign up for FW. For instance should it be a viable tactic for someone to retreat into high sec to shake off a few pursuers in smaller ship hulls (and in general PvP fitted ships). Currently this is a pretty significant deterrent for further pursuit, and creates some annoying gate games (rather than stuff blowing up).
I would propose fewer, but smarter spawns that would respawn on a timer, and will escalate in difficulty the longer the spawns keep getting wiped out. The difficulty of the initial spawn should be dependent on the security level of the system, or on the proximity of the system to a militia station.
ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon |
Gevlin
Universal Might DSM FOUNDATION
139
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 03:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
oh please please... this would keep me in low sec for ever.... it allows PC to lead NPC followers. Allows a solo Player to play against many if he know how to stratigically use the NPCs. I can Solo in a logitics ship. I can actually play on the Side of the NPCs - A first!
This should encourage timid new PVP players, I would expect to see some new players in Low sec... The NPCs should open a faction chat channel for those in system so they can report targets, broadcast for reps, report if someone is tackled. so the player being apart of the NPC fleet can feel apart of the fleet. Or report they have a tackle in another complex.
This would add a whole new play style in eve. a Unique play style ... is it ready on SISi yet. I want to test this out.. I need to test this out to make an informed decision. Other wise half of my self is battling the fear of the unknown.
Please this is a CRAZY idea and needs some play testing... there are just too many variable to just sit back and say Meh or YEH!!
I know this is work, but please allow us to test it before allowing this idea to be shot down.
Thanks
The Goons are Coming, The Goons are Coming Jita the April 28, Hulk a geddon April 29 for a month. The Best Tears are the Geifer's Tears. just hope the new crime watch system is in place by then.... oh the chaos will rain!!! |
Gevlin
Universal Might DSM FOUNDATION
139
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 03:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
for high sec I would recommend leaving the Crew Week and dumb as they will become complacent because Concord does all the work, In low sec, the cream of the crop is used because they can't rely on Concord to help you out.
Would be interesting to have Faction police roam in their space controlled territory. If you want protection.. You you have to join a Faction!
This would make a nice transition for High sec to Null sec. forcing people to choose. Fly with limited protection, but be targets to a couple of factions. Pirates can attack people in their home faction low sec systems, Don't get a sec hit. But will get pounced by NPC Faction after 20-60 seconds dependings on the sec status. These NPC would be Defeatable by same number PCs players. or avoided if the Pirates are quick.
This would Encourage Carebearing in low sec and pirates in a fast fleet or cheap fleet can earn a life from salvage and running from the police. The Goons are Coming, The Goons are Coming Jita the April 28, Hulk a geddon April 29 for a month. The Best Tears are the Geifer's Tears. just hope the new crime watch system is in place by then.... oh the chaos will rain!!! |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
203
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 04:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- Upgrade their AI with target switching mechanics - just like Sleepers and Incursion Sanshas
- Revamp their attributes to be more on par with PvP fits, while still allowing new pilots to compete (FW barrier of entry is supposed to be low)
- Cut their respawn numbers - they should be used as an activity if there is no PvP going around, but not impair PvP when it is happening
- Possibly use them to assist a losing faction; for example, have tougher NPCs than usual spawn for a faction with less solar systems, or attack opposing members at gates (not neutrals)
These sound like good ideas. Not so sure about the last one, but I don't think it will matter too much one way or the other.
Quote:Another point where your feedback would be most appreciated is regarding your own experience facing them as they are right now:
- What do you think about Navy NPCs when you go to enemy high-security space? What would you do about that?
- What about the standing mechanic that govern NPC attack behavior? When do you feel they should engage you? Low standings? Capturing a complex?
If a WT enters a plex, the NPCs should shoot him no matter what standings he has. If a fellow militia member enters a plex, he should never be shot at - no matter what his faction standing is (unless he shoots first). Otherwise, set the standings for neutrals at whatever people think is important.
I wish plexes were capped based on when the last NPC dies (for the attacker). Nothing is more boring than sitting in a plex when nobody wants to fight you.
w.r.t balance. There's two things: 1. Damage 2. E-war
Both ought to be thought through. Hopefully making NPCs more pvp like, this issue will go away.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
204
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 13:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kurai Okala wrote:
Mixing NPCs with PVP has always seemed like a bad idea to me but I don't want to see FW NPCs removed all together either so I like this idea.
Also, another +1 to reducing NPC numbers but improving their AI to make them mimic PVP. I don't think FW players should have to gimp their PVP effectiveness to effeciently deal with enemy NPCs (get those PVE fits out of a PVP feature)
I disagree. Having NPCs in fights can give a numerically inferior group of players a chance at defeating a better squad on paper. These are actually pretty fun fights and offer some variety in engagements. Their effect on the plex fights, however, should simulate normal pvp as much as practicable. For example, fighting against large numbers of ewar is not realistic nor fun.
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Liner Xiandra
Caldari State Reserve
4
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Posted - 2012.05.12 13:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Maybe this is more a thing for the user interface guys and girls, but why are friendly NPC's in FW complexes shown as reds on the overview?
If the NPC's are on your side, either make them militia coloured on the overview; or neutral even. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
204
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 13:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
delete |
RavenTesio
Liandri Corporation
22
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Posted - 2012.05.13 19:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
This isn't so much NPC based but would first say I think that Tags are just an irritating aspect of PvE, they should be replaced with a Bounty... only rather than ISK you are earning Commendations.
Ship Size = Commendation Type Ship Cost = Commendation Amount
You would earn these for both NPCs and Players. Remove the LP from Player Kills. Honestly this just make far more sense overall... right now Tags are considered "Very Rare Items" so if you die, they instantly disappear rather than drop, they are also a HUGE pain in the ass to bother picking up because you earn such low quantities you have to grind for the damn things.
As it stands Faction Gear for the most part is just ridiculously over-priced. We should see far more of it on the market, and not be afraid to use all but the most basic and cheap hardware because that 1 Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field cost more than the entire ship we're flying on a Kill Report.
To me instead of increasing out ability to have larger wallets, just let us earn the equippment we need to get back in to a fight more cheaply. After all most of us care more about doing PvP than simply watching our wallets explode, this would also take care of those who join Faction Warfare simply to Mission Run or such; because they'll find what they were making a mint on suddenly has reduced to only being slightly better price-wise than Tech 2 hardware.
Loyalty from Complexes and Commendations from Combat to me provides the perfect blend in earning potencial that could be quickly turned around to deadly ships rather than having to do a trade hub run each time we need more hardware.
Also increase what we can buy via the LP Store. At the very least have them offer Tech 1 ships at baseline prices for us as opposed to what Goonswarm are forcing the market towards, little point in being rich if the market inflation is out-pacing our earning potencial.
As it stands the NPCs in a complex will stack, and stack, and stack. With a single Spawn being relatively easy to deal with solo, yet if someone forces a full spawn (or fails) blam next time you enter you have to deal with a full set of spawns. To me this makes complexes somewhere between a yawnfest and "**** I wish I'd brought friends"
Not to mention simply speed tanking a room is just far too easy, even with the changes on SiSi; I can still grab a throwaway rifter and solo them to my hearts content.
Instead what would make more sense is the idea of a Roaming NPC Fleet. The basic concept here is you have a Fleet in system, with let's say 50 NPC Pilots; they would be split in to 5x 10-man Squads... their job would be to patrol a system for that given Militia.
These squads could be split in to their intended patrol areas. Commander (Carrier + Battleships) would Patrol the I-HUB, Major Unrestricted (Patrols Gates), Major (Patrols Stations), Medium (Patrols Planets), Minor (Patrols Belts)
When you enter the system, they wouldn't deviate from their Patrol Routes; but if they see you they would engage relying information to the other patrolling squads. You would be able to remain hidden in a Safe-Spot or Cosmic Anomaly.
Activating a Complex, wouldn't have NPCs inside but instead this would alert the NPCs in system with a given Squad Responding... they would enter via the same way we do (acceleration gate), with their objective to defend the Control Point. Just as if a Player was there, when they are within range of the Control Point it would stop the timer; meaning you have to dispatch of them as quickly as possible to keep it going.
When they die instead of being well dead, they would return to the I-HUB and Reship from the Carrier. Meaning there would be a little downtime before they attack again, but they would keep coming back even once the site has been taken.
If however Friendly Militia enter the Complex, they would no longer return and either go to another complex that needs their attention or return to patrol duty.
In this way you will only EVER have a single wave of enemy to deal with that would continue to Harass you until the I-HUB becomes vunerable AND you have taken down their Carrier. If the I-HUB is still invunerable, it will respawn another Carrier (followed by the rest of the ships) after 5minutes.
Again if there are Friendly Militia on the Field, the NPCs will disengage (if they can) to return to a Safe Spot (perhaps the Sun) in the System.
The idea here is to have the PvE combat feel more like PvP Combat, with the honestly ridiculously boring aspect of Bunker Busting, which very rarely results in a fight between two sides have something interesting to also deal with. To me fighting over a system should be a very tough fight, against either NPCs or Players that requires us to work together rather than just run around as a solo player all day.
Only reason you see fleets for Bunker Busts come from the fact that they have a stupid amount of hitpoints like POSs, not because we couldn't do it alone just that it'd take all dang day.
I also think that the Complex sites themselves should make a bit more sense. As it stands we have to sit inside an imaginary circle until a timer says we're good... which honestly doesn't make any sense. "Oh no, the enemy has sat outside my Window for 10 minutes... well guess we should defect now!" - just ridiculous.
Instead what would make more sense (atleast to me) is if these Complex sites actually were tied to the Invunerability of the Infrastructer Hub. The sites themselves would also be protected by shield units and a small contingent of low-yield turrets designed to deter curious pilots. [continued in post 2] |
RavenTesio
Liandri Corporation
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 19:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
As such would propose there be 2 new Modules and a 'new' Structure. These would be available via the LP Store. Module 1 GÇó Military Assault Module GÇó [High Slot] This device would be loaded with an DAS (Dust Assault Ship) and provide a Triage / Seige-style Mode; where the ship that launches the DAS is locked in to position until the Assault Ship returns, with their resists raised 25% (up to a max of 95%) for the duration.
As DUST obviously isn't out yet, for the moment this would be a simple timer (say 5 minutes) but it would make a good Assault & Defend Game Mode in DUST... where their success would have a direct impact on our ability to capture a site, just as our success at defending the ship that launches it would on them being able to come back alive.
Module 2 GÇó Military IFF GÇó [Mid-Slot] Complex gates would automatically allow friendly militia in, those who are not however would be locked out. Using the device would scramble the Friend-or-Foe check for 5 minutes to allow those from your Faction, Corporation or Alliance in to the Complex. Those in a militia the device works instantly, but those outside of militia it would work similar to how the Salvager or Decrypter works... this wouldn't stop Pirates or such from entering but it would mean they will be vunerable on the gate for much longer until it works.
Structure GÇó Remote Shield Emitter GÇó These are devices inside the complex, where you would have +1 per Level of Complex. As such Minor = 1, Medium = 2, Major = 3, Major Unrestricted = 4. In order to make the Control Center vunerable to attack you must offline these shields... basically, blow them the hell up. Once you have completed gaining control of the site however it will be your responsibility to anchor and calibrate new RSEs to make sure your Control Center is protected.
The Emitters themselves will anchor immediately, but a friendly militia ship is used to calibrate them; so they must stay within 10km until they have finished calibration. These should take between 1-2 minute(s) to Calibrate.
---
To me this makes a more interesting Complex system, but what would make it better is if the Complexes weren't randomly spawning deadspace, but were more like randomly placed but always there. You would still need to scan them down, but instead each site would be worth a set number of points depending on the site size. With the System Upgrade determining the number of points you could have active in a system...
For example: Upgrade Level 0 = 25 Points (Minor = 1 Point) and so when you capture the system 25 Minor Sites are spawned in that system. Upgrade Level 1 = 75 Points ... each time you upgrade you get an additional 25 Minor Site, but you have a further 25 Points to spend on spawning either more Minor Sites; or Upgrading the sites you have to Mediums, Major or Major Unrestricted.
This is done by simply entering the site, anchoring a new Emitter and Activating it. Each emitter anchored increases that site to the next level and adding a point to how much it is worth.
Now why do this? Simple, to change how the systems are won overall. The idea is that there will be a running total of points, let's say for example we are fighting over Nisuwa (Caldari-Gallente) and they have only chosen to upgrade it to Level 1 (75 points)
In order for that system to become vunerable, the Caldari would need to take +50% of the Points available in the system. e.g. 38 Points, which would be the quickest means ... but for the Gallente to stop us, they would only need to take a single Minor Complex back.
Still we go further with this and say for some reason the Gallente don't respond to this attack, we take the I-HUB dealing with the NPC fleet, blam! now it is Caldari owned. The thing is there are still 37 Points that the Gallente own, meaning they can immediately make the I-HUB vunerable again... while we could take the remaining Gallente Points, we would not earn any LP for this as they would now be defensive.
This would allow for systems to still have a very quick turn-over within a single timezone, but this is at the risk of having it very quickly be turned back. The system will then enter a 24hr Warzone period, during this time it is up to either the side who just lost the system to take it back (retaining the upgrade level) or for the defending side to donate the LP to upgrade it to maintain it. Would also point out that during a Warzone period, no one owns the system. This gives the defending side the chance to move all of their docked ships out of system, or retake it.
After this time the Complexes are reset to the basic 25 Minors. With the Docking Rights to Enemies of the Controlling Faction Rescinded... would echo this should not just be Wartargets, but anyone who had bad standings with the Faction inversely equivilant to the system security rating.
i.e. Nisuwa 0.3 (-7.0 with Caldari State or lower = No Dock) - Diplomacy should not be factored in, as this should only count for High-Sec. These are Warzones, with much more strict rules enforce by Military Personel not Diplomats and Police. |
Esna Pitoojee
The Peerage Amarr 7th Fleet
62
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Posted - 2012.05.13 23:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
Regarding NPC EWAR:
While I cannot speak for the Caldari/Gallente front, this has been a major issue on the Amarr/Minmatar front; the classic example given for this is that while an ABing Vigil can solo an Amarr Major (let alone Medium) plex, at least two frigates or other small ship are required to run a Minmatar medium or Major plex - one to kite the NPCs and one to count the timer down. Moreover, if ANY of the subsequent spawns aggro on the button-counter, they will have to leave the plex and re-enter. Of course, an Amarr player could use a more appropriately sized ship for the plex size, but this puts them at a significant disadvantage - especially for newer players - compared to the Minmatar pilot who can take his ABing vigil almost anywhere and easily run if someone decides to come chasing them.
Looking over the database of NPCs at Games.chruker.dk, however, I noticed something else:
For Minmatar FW NPCs, 19 have various EWAR abilitiies (this includes web, scram, energy neuting, TPing, etc...). Amarr have 24 seperate NPCs with assorted EWAR abilities.
Here's the breakdown: Webbing: A:4 / M: 6 - unsurprising; webbing is the secondary Minmatar racial EWAR type. Warp Scrambling: A:4 / M:4 - a nice balance here Primary racial EWAR type (TP/TD/etc): A:15 / M:12 - here's a surprise, Amarr actually have more NPCs doing their main EWAR Energy Vampire: A:12 / M:2 - another surprise; Amarr have a much greater disparity among the number of ships using their secondary EWAR type than for the Minmatar secondary EWAR (webbing).
Considering the above, why is it that Amarr NPCs are by nearly everyone I've encountered generally agreed to be the easier NPCs to fight?
I would argue it's a combination of three things: First, the Amarr EWAR types are highly dependent on range - that is, it is possibly to mitigate or entirely remove their effects by pulling range. Minmatar EWAR, on the other hand, can follow you out to extreme ranges.
Second, while Amarr EWAR is "defensive" - that is, it only limits your ability to engage the NPCs - Minmatar EWAR is "offensive", assisting the NPCs in their firing on you. Finally, there's that oft-cited disparity in missile use between Amarr and Minmatar NPCs, which becomes particularly pertinent when you consider the second point.
Finally, there is an extreme disparity in how far or how effectively the EWAR is utilized. For example, an Amarr NPC battleship has a 25% chance to neut you out to 10km, while a Minmatar battleship has a 75% chance to neut at up to 30km. Keepin in mind that energy neutralization is an Amarr EWAR type! The same is true for primary (racial-specific) EWAR types; one of the Minmatar basic cruisers, for example, is 100% more likely to engage its EWAR out to 10km farther than its Amarr counterpart.
Overall, therefor, Minmatar NPCs are far more likely to use their EWAR and will effect you regardless of what you are doing, compared to Amarr NPCs.
As a final note, as has been mentioned, the issue of disparity in missile use is a serious issue in the difficulty issues between Amarr and Minmatar NPCs, particularly in light of the above points about EWAR. |
|
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 03:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Cut their respawn numbers - they should be used as an activity if there is no PvP going around, but not impair PvP when it is happening
That idea is pretty carebear.
You want to gank someone, best time to do it is during or just after a fight while he's at his weakest. That's how dirty PvPers do it, so that's how NPCs should to if you want to make them more realistic. These guys should spawn during or towards the end of a PvP battle. Uncloak with their stealth bomber and shove a few torpedoes up the winners tail pipe. Maybe make finding the cloaked NPCs a game within the game.
If you want to win a war, sometimes you need to use dirty tricks and the more you are losing the dirtier you should be.
Quote:Possibly use them to assist a losing faction; for example, have tougher NPCs than usual spawn for a faction with less solar systems, or attack opposing members at gates (not neutrals)
In theory I like this one to a degree. For instance are we talking about hotdropping an NPC carrier or twelve on the winning side for the LULZ?
Quote: What about the standing mechanic that govern NPC attack behavior? When do you feel they should engage you? Low standings?
A lot of people won't do FW primarily because it kills your faction standings with the other side. Food for thought. I <3 Vexors. |
Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 14:55:00 -
[22] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:NPC's could all be the grossly overpowered Concord vessels if only the AI/behaviour was coded right. Not sure if the actual ships need much changing at all to be honest, eWar could do with a downwards tweak but I am hoping that the eWar revision will make any such change pointless .. you are still planning on revising eWar I take it? Have them protect that which they were meant to first and foremost .. the complex, aka. timer, instead of everything with the proper standings. - If a person enters capture range (CR), check standings, if hated -> shoot him down. - If a person leaves capture range, but has taken no hostile action -> keep him locked but do nothing further. - If more than one with hated standings are in CR, then use threat list akin to the one used by Incursion Sansha. - If a person is in plex but not in CR, lock him up -> do nothing further. - If a person is in plex but not in CR and takes hostile action against guards -> shoot him down but never leave striking distance of timer which is to be protected. * Basically have them ignore anyone who is not a direct threat to the plex or its personnel. Add some sentries around the timer to assist with LR targets (especially in Gallente plexes where NPC weapons are worse than BB guns) and to make the solo AB frig capture an impossibility. It is a military installation damnit, surely they have some gun emplacements .. even the smallest of the small pirate installations have some defensive guns in place! The NPCs are now something to do when no pew is present and they don't interfere with the pew when it is (provided it doesn't happen on the timer ).
^This is a good idea. Additionally, make all the NPCs have uniform damage and range. The NPCs should have no EWAR, no webs, no points, no neuts, just damage.
As far as FW complexes go, increase the base capture time on all the plexes. If there are no hostile NPCs left on the grid, the timer counts time 3-5 times faster than normal. Defensive plexes should still get the base capture times as they are today. |
Gevlin
Universal Might DSM FOUNDATION
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 19:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
yest a mecahnic to taunt your enemy - the lower your faction the more aggro you make when you fire. The Goons are Coming, The Goons are Coming Jita the April 28, Hulk a geddon April 29 for a month. The Best Tears are the Geifer's Tears. just hope the new crime watch system is in place by then.... oh the chaos will rain!!! |
Galphii
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 04:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
You could use the FW NPC's as a testbed for adjusting all rats in EvE; Bring their stats up to 80% of a player's ship, give them pvp fittings (based on the current modules, not the ancient variants of things like sensor damps or 80km torpedo launchers) and the sleeper AI (or at least the AI we see npc's use in 'Worlds Collide' where they aren't quite as intelligent). And yes, fewer NPC's in each location, fewer still if there are players fighting each other, 'cause that's more important. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
422
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 19:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kurai Okala wrote:Milton Middleson wrote:If we don't want NPCs messing up PvP (I don't), but don't want to ditch them entirely (I don't), a possible solution would be to make the plex have two rooms: one with the NPCs and one with the actual plex timer. Hostile militia that warp to the plex and take the accel gate in wind up in the first room and need to kill all the NPCs to unlock a second gate. Friendly militia just go straight to the final room. (This also gives an advantage to defenders who respond quickly or attackers who can clear the NPCs quickly).
This doesn't solve the issue of NPC difficulty/numbers, but it does mean that you're not going to lose a fight because the rats had you webbed or TDed. It also prevents people from AFK speed tanking plexes, since you will have to kill the rats. Mixing NPCs with PVP has always seemed like a bad idea to me but I don't want to see FW NPCs removed all together either so I like this idea. Also, another +1 to reducing NPC numbers but improving their AI to make them mimic PVP. I don't think FW players should have to gimp their PVP effectiveness to effeciently deal with enemy NPCs (get those PVE fits out of a PVP feature)
Improve their ai if you want but make them easy to kill. IMO ccp should use npcs only where absolutely necessary. If they aren't absolutely necessary then get rid of them.
This is a mmo people should be deciding the outcome of wars not spawns of npcs. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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ostar ostar
Odyssey Space Exploration
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 20:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
A few ideas here:
Have scrambling NPCs on gates/stations/customs offices, whose numbers and firepower scale inversely with how much territory you control, and scale linearly with how close to friendly highsec you are, and how upgraded the system is. This makes it easier to defend systems when you are losing (all the NPC dudes fall back to hold the line), on home turf or have a more upgraded system, which makes sense to me. The customs office thing just makes plain sense; why would they let an enemy harvest planet resources? Tie this to DUST, so that this goes away if the dusties win a planet, stays if they don't, and it'll be nice. Also make sentry guns of FW corp stations fire on FW targets (why, fiction-wise, wouldn't they?) which is little more than an annoyance, as they can be tanked pretty easy in a BS anyway. Possibly make a system upgrade more sentries on stations, only these particular ones only fire on FW targets, or neutrals attacking friendly FW members. Again, makes sense, gives incentive to upgrade your system, which is nice. Upgrade the spawns in plexes to faction-police grade spawns, but only very few, and have them spawn constantly so long as you are attempting to capture it. Augment them with sleeper AI (somebody mentioned a very good aggression management idea for NPCs, do that please) so that they provide a challenge, but if you know how and bring one or two friends, they'll die pretty quick. This means with the right tactics/gang it can be beaten, but if you charge in solo, guns blazing without any kind of strategy expect to die very, very quickly. With a small gang they'll be pushovers, at which point it's over to the players to save the complex and stop the enemy gaining influence over the system. NPC fleets, including capitals, at the IHub once it becomes venerable. So what, they're meant to just sit back and watch themselves lose sov? Erm, not very realistic; i'm not getting a sense of conflict here. Where is the home-field advantage? Where is something NOT a structure grind? I wouldn't mind structure grinds, but mix it up, make it a proper siege, fending off players and NPCs for just long enough to convert sov. It makes victory more satisfying rather than the current: 'oh, we won. That's nice' not-very-gratifying sensation, and makes it actual effort rather than 'stare and hit f1-f8, maybe change targets if something warps in.' Note: Ideas aren't serious, just ideas floating around in my head. No idea if they're any good, just throwing them out here for discussion. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
422
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 20:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Kurai Okala wrote:
Mixing NPCs with PVP has always seemed like a bad idea to me but I don't want to see FW NPCs removed all together either so I like this idea.
Also, another +1 to reducing NPC numbers but improving their AI to make them mimic PVP. I don't think FW players should have to gimp their PVP effectiveness to effeciently deal with enemy NPCs (get those PVE fits out of a PVP feature)
I disagree. Having NPCs in fights can give a numerically inferior group of players a chance at defeating a better squad on paper. These are actually pretty fun fights and offer some variety in engagements. Their effect on the plex fights, however, should simulate normal pvp as much as practicable. For example, fighting against large numbers of ewar is not realistic nor fun.
I only got a pvp fight one time due to rats. I have had about 50 times where rats blocked or ruined the pvp opportunity. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
116
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 14:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Kurai Okala wrote:Milton Middleson wrote:If we don't want NPCs messing up PvP (I don't), but don't want to ditch them entirely (I don't), a possible solution would be to make the plex have two rooms: one with the NPCs and one with the actual plex timer. Hostile militia that warp to the plex and take the accel gate in wind up in the first room and need to kill all the NPCs to unlock a second gate. Friendly militia just go straight to the final room. (This also gives an advantage to defenders who respond quickly or attackers who can clear the NPCs quickly).
This doesn't solve the issue of NPC difficulty/numbers, but it does mean that you're not going to lose a fight because the rats had you webbed or TDed. It also prevents people from AFK speed tanking plexes, since you will have to kill the rats. Mixing NPCs with PVP has always seemed like a bad idea to me but I don't want to see FW NPCs removed all together either so I like this idea. Also, another +1 to reducing NPC numbers but improving their AI to make them mimic PVP. I don't think FW players should have to gimp their PVP effectiveness to effeciently deal with enemy NPCs (get those PVE fits out of a PVP feature) Improve their ai if you want but make them easy to kill. IMO ccp should use npcs only where absolutely necessary. If they aren't absolutely necessary then get rid of them. This is a mmo people should be deciding the outcome of wars not spawns of npcs.
The rats are necessary to prevent farming now. The problem is, they are unbalanced across the races.
Here is the best example I can think of - last night one of my corpies chased off a solo condor that was speed tanking a gallente major. I have seen km of these ships in the past, and many of them dont even fit guns - just an overdrive or two. People are now just going to go to backwater systems and run buttons for 30k LP with solo condors or atrons on unskilled alts. PLEASE DON'T LET THAT GO LIVE. I cannot tell you how many ways i have heard to exploit this already. I have 3 suggestions that might fix it:
1. Give all races frigate and cruiser rats that can hit frigates. Ships that have light missiles and/or painters. Some should spawn with wach wave. It wont make them impossible to run with frigates, but it will make people have to kill the rats. Solo or dual boxed unskilled frigs should not be able to speed tank plex.
2. Even easier - make it so a plex will not complete or award LP unless all rats have been killed. This won't require changing the rats at all.
3. Award LP for both offensive and defensive plexing, but ONLY when a system is contested. This will prevent farming by making conflict systems where players will gather and fight and prevent people from afk farming backwater systems.
Honestly, I think it should be a combination of #2 and 3 above. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
424
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 14:25:00 -
[29] - Quote
Hrett wrote:Cearain wrote:Kurai Okala wrote:Milton Middleson wrote:If we don't want NPCs messing up PvP (I don't), but don't want to ditch them entirely (I don't), a possible solution would be to make the plex have two rooms: one with the NPCs and one with the actual plex timer. Hostile militia that warp to the plex and take the accel gate in wind up in the first room and need to kill all the NPCs to unlock a second gate. Friendly militia just go straight to the final room. (This also gives an advantage to defenders who respond quickly or attackers who can clear the NPCs quickly).
This doesn't solve the issue of NPC difficulty/numbers, but it does mean that you're not going to lose a fight because the rats had you webbed or TDed. It also prevents people from AFK speed tanking plexes, since you will have to kill the rats. Mixing NPCs with PVP has always seemed like a bad idea to me but I don't want to see FW NPCs removed all together either so I like this idea. Also, another +1 to reducing NPC numbers but improving their AI to make them mimic PVP. I don't think FW players should have to gimp their PVP effectiveness to effeciently deal with enemy NPCs (get those PVE fits out of a PVP feature) Improve their ai if you want but make them easy to kill. IMO ccp should use npcs only where absolutely necessary. If they aren't absolutely necessary then get rid of them. This is a mmo people should be deciding the outcome of wars not spawns of npcs. The rats are necessary to prevent farming now. ....
Well with these changes we should have better intel as to where plexes are being run so players can stop the farming. Plus players will have an added incentive to stop plexing if they strongly tie in the lp upgrades to the 16x lp cost multiplier.
So I do not know that rats are necessary to prevent farming after the inferno changes. Certainly ccp could continue to improve the militia intel tools and the incentives to stop plexers so that rats would be completely unnecessary. That would make for a much better game.
Few are proud that they are the carebear pver in this game. So making faction war more of a pve activity is not going to help it. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 17:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
One thing I believe is needed is you should have to clear the npc's for an offensive cap to occur.
And I like the ideas in the OP. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
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Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 17:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Possibly use them to assist a losing faction; for example, have tougher NPCs than usual spawn for a faction with less solar systems, or attack opposing members at gates (not neutrals)[/list]
OK, I have to ask why they wouldn't attack neutrals? They should gets aways from our wars.
Unless you were planning on only having FW able to activate gates?
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
424
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 14:03:00 -
[32] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Possibly use them to assist a losing faction; for example, have tougher NPCs than usual spawn for a faction with less solar systems, or attack opposing members at gates (not neutrals)[/list]
I would be against this. Try to put some sort of balance in the systems so players will continue to fight for both sides. Don't make it so everyone joins one side and then just does pve against rats.
Please look at data on incursions. When incursions go to a low sec system does the amount of pvp there increase or decrease? If it decreases then please reduce the influence of npcs in faction war. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cardano Firesnake
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 11:12:00 -
[33] - Quote
The anomalies, and the missions are boring. Nearly as boring than mining.
Missions and anomalies should be more dynamic even if the ISK/Time must not be too hard.
More different missions and anomalies with similar level of gain is a priority.
Distribution and Mining missions must be as lucrative than security missions give players more way to gain isk. |
Serina Tsukaya
Lonetrek Trade and Industries Test Friends Please Ignore
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 11:47:00 -
[34] - Quote
The idea of using npcs to assist a faction that is struggling is a good idea. It would mean that taking all of the space of a faction becomes more difficult. And given how many people prefer one race over another, this would artificially balance power between the factions in a positive light. No one would want to join the war on the side of the gallente if they've lost all their systems. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
126
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 16:49:00 -
[35] - Quote
Problem with using NPCs as a balance tool is that you risk forcing a winning side to field ever more people just to deal with the 'distractions' which will cut into the pew side of things .. will be even more true if they ever get around to balancing the NPCs themselves ... I say "if" because 'lol' CCP SoundFail is in charge so chances are the navy rats start dropping navy bpcs and get bounties attached "because then people will want to shoot them and they are no longer an obstacle to pew!!!1111"
As for joining a losing side .. LP will be easy as hell to acquire just from plexing (semi-AFK activity for the most part) .. so easy in fact that even if you have the atrocious x1/4 modifier you will probably still be able to make a tidy profit. Whole thing depends on whether or not the "winners" aggressively pursue and have nigh constant numerical superiority . |
Shallazar
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 11:38:00 -
[36] - Quote
Hrett wrote:Cearain wrote:Kurai Okala wrote:Milton Middleson wrote:If we don't want NPCs messing up PvP (I don't), but don't want to ditch them entirely (I don't), a possible solution would be to make the plex have two rooms: one with the NPCs and one with the actual plex timer. Hostile militia that warp to the plex and take the accel gate in wind up in the first room and need to kill all the NPCs to unlock a second gate. Friendly militia just go straight to the final room. (This also gives an advantage to defenders who respond quickly or attackers who can clear the NPCs quickly).
This doesn't solve the issue of NPC difficulty/numbers, but it does mean that you're not going to lose a fight because the rats had you webbed or TDed. It also prevents people from AFK speed tanking plexes, since you will have to kill the rats. Mixing NPCs with PVP has always seemed like a bad idea to me but I don't want to see FW NPCs removed all together either so I like this idea. Also, another +1 to reducing NPC numbers but improving their AI to make them mimic PVP. I don't think FW players should have to gimp their PVP effectiveness to effeciently deal with enemy NPCs (get those PVE fits out of a PVP feature) Improve their ai if you want but make them easy to kill. IMO ccp should use npcs only where absolutely necessary. If they aren't absolutely necessary then get rid of them. This is a mmo people should be deciding the outcome of wars not spawns of npcs. The rats are necessary to prevent farming now. The problem is, they are unbalanced across the races. Here is the best example I can think of - last night one of my corpies chased off a solo condor that was speed tanking a gallente major. I have seen km of these ships in the past, and many of them dont even fit guns - just an overdrive or two. People are now just going to go to backwater systems and run buttons for 30k LP with solo condors or atrons on unskilled alts. PLEASE DON'T LET THAT GO LIVE. I cannot tell you how many ways i have heard to exploit this already. I have 3 suggestions that might fix it: 1. Give all races frigate and cruiser rats that can hit frigates. Ships that have light missiles and/or painters. Some should spawn with wach wave. It wont make them impossible to run with frigates, but it will make people have to kill the rats. Solo or dual boxed unskilled frigs should not be able to speed tank plex. 2. Even easier - make it so a plex will not complete or award LP unless all rats have been killed. This won't require changing the rats at all. 3. Award LP for both offensive and defensive plexing, but ONLY when a system is contested. This will prevent farming by making conflict systems where players will gather and fight and prevent people from afk farming backwater systems. Honestly, I think it should be a combination of #2 and 3 above.
I've only been in FW a week and the above seems to be one of the most annoying issues when watching a Vigil able to go and complete an Amarr Major Outpost solo. It is quite a crazy situation, devalues the game and should be fixed asap.
As the above poster suggested in point 2, it would be a very easy change to make capture dependent on killing all the npc's and running the timer. There are a lot of other ideas that can be evaluated, and just this one change will not fix the issue completely, but I it must be very easy to implement, as many missions work in this way.
It would also make the mechanics more logical, as it is not very realistic to suggest an outpost/plex is caputured if the guarding fleet is still intact. They would just capture it back!!!!! Maybe the timer shouldn't even start counting until the fleet starts being attacked.
Shall.
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Condor Amarr
Black Watch Guard
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 11:52:00 -
[37] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:NPC's could all be the grossly overpowered Concord vessels if only the AI/behaviour was coded right. Not sure if the actual ships need much changing at all to be honest, eWar could do with a downwards tweak but I am hoping that the eWar revision will make any such change pointless .. you are still planning on revising eWar I take it? Have them protect that which they were meant to first and foremost .. the complex, aka. timer, instead of everything with the proper standings. - If a person enters capture range (CR), check standings, if hated -> shoot him down. - If a person leaves capture range, but has taken no hostile action -> keep him locked but do nothing further. - If more than one with hated standings are in CR, then use threat list akin to the one used by Incursion Sansha. - If a person is in plex but not in CR, lock him up -> do nothing further. - If a person is in plex but not in CR and takes hostile action against guards -> shoot him down but never leave striking distance of timer which is to be protected. * Basically have them ignore anyone who is not a direct threat to the plex or its personnel. Add some sentries around the timer to assist with LR targets (especially in Gallente plexes where NPC weapons are worse than BB guns) and to make the solo AB frig capture an impossibility. It is a military installation damnit, surely they have some gun emplacements .. even the smallest of the small pirate installations have some defensive guns in place! The NPCs are now something to do when no pew is present and they don't interfere with the pew when it is (provided it doesn't happen on the timer ).
This, but I would add:
ALL NPC within a plex must be destroyed before the plex is captured. There is no way you should be able to capture a plex from "under the nose" of the Navy assigned to protect it. If we can't dock in their space, we sure as hell shouldn't be able to steal their system while they sit and watch.
I also think you have gone about this in the wrong order. You have implemented the new Sov system, whilst still working with a broken (horribly broken actually) capture mechanic. All this is going to do is mean that certain factions will continue to have an advantage (IE - capture the remaining systems) and THEN the NPC balance will be implemented... Which is pointless, as they will already own all the space.
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RaptorXL
Tax Evasion R US Joint Alliance Blue
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 04:19:00 -
[38] - Quote
Morwen Lagann wrote:A common and recurring complaint I hear from friends in FW is summed up pretty easily in two words: NPC EWAR.
More specifically: Amarr Militia: "OMG my frigate is suddenly a stationary battleship because the Minmatar NPCs have hax webifiers and target painters!" Caldari Militia: "OMG I can't target anything because the Gallente NPCs are damping my targeting range down to 5km!" Gallente Militia: "OMG I can't target anything because the Caldari NPCs are permajamming me!" Minmatar Militia: "OMG I can't hit anything because I was already fighting in falloff and the Amarr NPCs are tracking distrupting me!" (alternatively: "lol, tracking disruption doesn't work on stealth bombers, n00b NPCs")
This. Fix all NPC's, missions too while you change the FW. This is a problem everywhere. |
Mra Rednu
Black Watch Guard
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 08:44:00 -
[39] - Quote
Hrett wrote: 1. Give all races frigate and cruiser rats that can hit frigates. Ships that have light missiles and/or painters. Some should spawn with wach wave. It wont make them impossible to run with frigates, but it will make people have to kill the rats. Solo or dual boxed unskilled frigs should not be able to speed tank plex. 2. Even easier - make it so a plex will not complete or award LP unless all rats have been killed. This won't require changing the rats at all. 3. Award LP for both offensive and defensive plexing, but ONLY when a system is contested. This will prevent farming by making conflict systems where players will gather and fight and prevent people from afk farming backwater systems. Honestly, I think it should be a combination of #2 and 3 above.
Idea's here would work, main thing and we been saying this for years is balance the rats, a vigil should not be able to capture all Amarr plex's OR make it so the Amarr can run all the minnie plex's with a t1 shitfit frig.
It's been the case where we need to put double the numbers into a plex to cap it because of the npc ewar and then get reports of a t1 frig capping a major next door, we been fighting against the tide for so long now that tbh a lot of us are resigned to the fact that CCP will balance the rats only once it is too late and the last systems have fallen or perhaps switch it for a few years so we can cap systems with untrained alts and the other side need to field proper ships and see how that goes, that would be proper balance wouldn't it :P
I'd personally favour all rats got to be killed I think do away totally with the ewar aspect from the rats as well, if pvp is going to happen the rats should provide additional dps but not ewar, you want ewar you bring it you're self. |
Atfal alNudjum
Black Watch Guard
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 09:34:00 -
[40] - Quote
Below are my views on FW and some of them have already been discussed previously, but you did ask for suggestions...
STATION LOCKOUT Get rid of it, in it's current form it's crap. My preference would have been to have stations across the WHOLE of eve allow acces or charge docking fees based upon your standing. Hey if I want to dock at a player owned station in 0.0 I have to pay or I may not be allowed in at all right?. So why not make it across the board. If your standing is say below -6 or so then the racial station will lock you out "Sorry mate your isk aint good enough to get you in here". Military stations linked to FW deny access to the enemy regardless. If they are in a system controlled by the enemy then the friendlies have to pay to dock, hey you have to pay for the dodgy paperwork to be done.
PLEXES Plexes are the bane of existence to FW. You are either going to have to balance the NPC rats across the board so that you can't speed tank them for example, as currently they act like morons. This is especially needed for the missions as they are being farmed like crazy with stealth bombers due to the crap rats on some sides of the militia.
The other alternative is to remove the spawned plexes all together and make all plexes missions. Something like;
- Agents are available based upon your standing in the militia (Agent Level) and possibly allow the choice of offensive or defensive missions when you speak with them.
- The size of the complex that will spawn is based upon the level of agent you speak to. (Lvl 1-Minor, Lvl 2-Medium, Lvl3-Major, Lvl 4&5 -Major Unrestricted). Ship restrictions remain as they are or if you want new players a step into FW, then perhaps Lvl 1 agents will spawn a Minor Restricted plex that only allows T1 frigates to enter, this negates the effect of faction frigates, T2s, destroyers etc and is only just a thought.
- The system chosen for the mission can be randomly determined with a weighting based upon how contested a system is. Highly contested systems would have more resources thrown at it by the respective militias. Higher level agents would also look at putting the larger missions in the most contested systems to try and stop the enemy.
- NPC rats may be included in the missions based upon the storyline of the mission, but they need to be intelligent and balanced. You shouldn't be able to speed tank a mission in a stealth bomber to farm them for example. Not having come across the EWAR stuff much myself I can't comment, although I can imagine the annoyance against Caldari with the missile buffs and ECM kicking in. Especially against frigate sized ships in minor plexes.
- ALL FW MISSIONS must have a way for either side to close it and it shouldn't necessarily have to be the same way e.g. a timer or shooting a rat so the other guy can't finish the mission.
- This last point is more of a story-line one which could affect missions. As the war progresses each sides military strategy may also change based on political back story etc. This would then affect the type and way missions are handed out. For instance, the Amarr Militia is losing a significant number of systems to the Minmatar. The Minmatar Command decides that at this stage it may be stretching itself thinly they begin a campaign of consolidation rather than purely offensive or perhaps the Empress decrees a spring offensive and all Amarr agents will give offensive missions only with every 5th mission given being a defensive one.
Plex Restrictions With the idea above re new players and a Minor Restricted plex it got me thinking. CCP has indicated in their 'latest' ship re-shuffle that faction ships are above T2 ships with respect to abilities and such. If that is the case then why are faction ships so cheap to build (once you get a BPC/BPO they only cost around $400k isk for a Dramiel or Slicer) compared to T2s and secondly why are they allowed in a minor plex when a T2 is not?
Restrictions need a little bit of a rethink in my opinion to balance out the PvP somewhat. A number of people like the small skirmish type of PvP that has, lets face it, been somewhat lacking with the use of booster alts and blobs. A Dramiel, Slicer or Firetail etc will for the most part take apart T1 & T2 frigates, and quite a number of destroyers from my experience (obviously if the player is crap the ship type doesn't count for much). But it is still allowed into minor complexes without issue, while T2s frigates have to enter mediums. It doesn't add up in my mind anyway.
Well that's about it for the moment, I'm sure I may think of other stuff later on and if I get a chance post it for critique or ridicule.
If you got this far, cheers for reading the whole thing
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Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
60
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 05:26:00 -
[41] - Quote
Hrett wrote:The rats are necessary to prevent farming now. The problem is, they are unbalanced across the races.
Here is the best example I can think of - last night one of my corpies chased off a solo condor that was speed tanking a gallente major. I have seen km of these ships in the past, and many of them dont even fit guns - just an overdrive or two.
http://aretr.thelegionofshadow.be/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=26560
Rifter, no guns, small shield booster, oversized afterburner, two nanofibers, cap/fitting mods. Solo contesting an Amarr major at the button. A Dramiel can solo an Amarr major at the button without so much trouble, and get out easier if a defender comes.
If the NPCs had to be destroyed for a plex to be taken, much of the problem of NPC balance would go away. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
242
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 11:40:00 -
[42] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote: If the NPCs had to be destroyed for a plex to be taken, much of the problem of NPC balance would go away.
+1.
CCP ought to also spend time in plexes against diffferent races to be able to judge how to handle e-war/dps differences between the different rats. Everybody's opinion differs. My experience: Caldari E-war - Painful, Not as bad as before. Need eccm. Galletne E-war - Painful for long range ships. Need shorter range ship (not ultra long sniper), or sensor boosters. Amarr E-war - Only painful if another pvp'er is in plex, or if you are pure turret boat. Need Missile Boat, then drone boat. Minmatar E-war - ?? No experience. TPs + Missiles are probably very devastating to small ships. |
Condor Amarr
Black Watch Guard
13
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 15:23:00 -
[43] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Kuehnelt wrote: If the NPCs had to be destroyed for a plex to be taken, much of the problem of NPC balance would go away.
+1. Minmatar E-war - ?? No experience. TPs + Missiles are probably very devastating to small ships.
You've nailled it with this mate. The TP's make it impossible to do what the Minmatar are able to with soloing plexes.
As many people here have now stated, forcing a player to kill all the NPCs would do away with a lot of the hassles and force people to close the plexes the way I am sure CCP originally intended. |
Kade Jeekin
Kinda'Shujaa
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 16:14:00 -
[44] - Quote
The NPC EWAR is balanced with the NPC ship strengths - this balance has been fine tuned for non-FW missions over the years.
Minmatar is geared to damage enhancing, range controlling EWAR but with light ships
Amarr are geared to slugging it out, damage reducing EWAR, with heavy ships,
Gallente geared to close range brawling with heavy ships
Caldari long range, damage reducing but lighter ships
But, because you don't need to eliminate the spawns to cap a plex, the slugger factions (Amarr and Gallente) don't get to use their strengths
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
441
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 17:20:00 -
[45] - Quote
I think the minmatar npcs are pretty difficult to deal with. Running a major plex with them requires more than a typical pvp battlecruiser.
Seriously I wish CCP would do something so we didn't have to shoot npcs. Maybe have an alarm system that you have to apply x amount of dps to over 20 seconds or the npcs will spawn. That way a smaller ship won't be able to blow up the alarm.
Or just remove the npcs altogether and let the players know where plexes are being taken so we can defend our territory - you know pvp. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Dynast
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 01:19:00 -
[46] - Quote
Morwen Lagann wrote:A common and recurring complaint I hear from friends in FW is summed up pretty easily in two words: NPC EWAR.
More specifically: Amarr Militia: "OMG my frigate is suddenly a stationary battleship because the Minmatar NPCs have hax webifiers and target painters!" Caldari Militia: "OMG I can't target anything because the Gallente NPCs are damping my targeting range down to 5km!" Gallente Militia: "OMG I can't target anything because the Caldari NPCs are permajamming me!" Minmatar Militia: "OMG I can't hit anything because I was already fighting in falloff and the Amarr NPCs are tracking distrupting me!" (alternatively: "lol, tracking disruption doesn't work on stealth bombers, n00b NPCs") What this guy said. The EWAR is the crux of the problem, on two accounts. One, because a lot of it is frustrating as all hell, and two, because some races EWAR is much more powerful than others giving one side an unfair advantage in plex capping and PvP.
Plexes are simultaneously a little to easy to speed-tank and cap, while some of them are frustratingly hard to clear. Caldari suck to clear because of ECM, Caldari and Minmatar NPCs also have missiles (and webs) which make them harder to speed tank. Clearing Gallente is tiresome because of the constant damping, and clearing Amarr is more or less a breeze as long as you didn't bring a turret boat. And clearing should be encouraged in general, because it makes for better (more even) PvP in plexes. Speed-tanking just leads to people warping off instantly the second a hostile comes on grid.
PvP wise, getting ECM'd and Damped by NPCs both suck horribly, with TDing and webbing/painting being not as bad but still a pain the arse. The extra DPS is already an advantage for the defender, it needn't be so large.
My suggestion is, remove all FW plex electronic warfare NPCs, and add a spider drone or two to each wave. If there's gonna be EWAR in the plexes, make the players bring it. if the difficulty of the plexes is deemed too low with that removed, up the ship types/numbers, those are much less unpleasant to deal with than ECM, Damping, and the like. |
Dynast
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 01:34:00 -
[47] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:- What about the standing mechanic that govern NPC attack behavior? When do you feel they should engage you? Low standings? Capturing a complex?
FW Plex NPCs should immediately engage all ships that are not members of a friendly militia. i.e., Gallente plex NPCs should shoot anyone who is not in a corp that is in the Gallente or Minmatar militias. There's no reason they should ever decline to shoot based on something that can be manipulated like faction standings, or should allow neutrals or pirates to futz around or harass friendlies at a military site. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 11:09:00 -
[48] - Quote
Having had a chance to run some plexes the the NPCGÇÖs at the moment seem an inconvenience rather than a challenge or deterrent.
- I run them in active tanked semi PVP fits neither optimised for both.
- I use up ammo and cannot now resupply
- Potentially use up cap boosters especially in the larger plexes. Cannot resupply these either.
- Face periods of heavy jamming.
- I will prob warp/gain extreme range if a war target enters while in the majors. ItGÇÖs too much to face the NPC's and another ship.
- With no rewards for defensive plexing they normally get bored and leave.
- All in all itGÇÖs not fun and it does not encourage PVP
- The NPCGÇÖs should have a point to them.
I would not suggest doing away with NPCGÇÖs altogether especially in the larger plex sizes they should consist of a few light squadron waves that are fast and web, this potentially deters speed tankers.
Crazy idea GÇ£End of level BossGÇ¥Warning may be a rubbish idea
This NPC spawns at the end of the timer and only where no militia pilot friendly to the plex has accessed the timer in the latter half of its countdown. In this case some form of PVP engagement has likely taken place and the plex is completed as normal. It may have a few light allies but is a much more challenging NPC both tank and damage wise think of it as an officer NPC.
This NPC has to be destroyed to complete the PLEX.
This sounds silly but the point is to provide a reward and challenge where no PVP has occurred.
It could have a bounty or drop faction ammo, boosters.
This might need to de-spawn after a time to prevent it being gamed by being left hanging around, or could lock the gate just those in the plex face the spawn and it scales with ship numbers, canGÇÖt beat it and have to warp out plex closes and counts as defended.
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Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D Defiant Legacy
34
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 16:59:00 -
[49] - Quote
Any chance of a Dev posting to say you are still reading this?
Having just read the entire thread, it seems an easy and fairly universally agreed first step would be to require killing all npc's to cap a plex. Speed tanking will work to count the timer down, but you still need something else to cap it.
Do that first and see what people think afterwards. *cough*iterate*cough*
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2418
|
Posted - 2012.06.01 00:08:00 -
[50] - Quote
Axl Borlara wrote:Any chance of a Dev posting to say you are still reading this?
Having just read the entire thread, it seems an easy and fairly universally agreed first step would be to require killing all npc's to cap a plex. Speed tanking will work to count the timer down, but you still need something else to cap it.
Do that first and see what people think afterwards. *cough*iterate*cough*
Probably not, but I assure you the feedback isn't going unnoticed. The dev's are busy with the CSM summit, and the Faction Warfare session is tomorrow morning, I'm sure this subject will come up and I'll certainly pass on the community feedback!
This thread will stay open and available even after the summit until we actually see a pass at NPC rebalancing, I'd imagine. That's the point, Ytterbium wants your specific input on what to tackle (no pun intended). You prolly won't see many posts just to say "we're listening" though, its implied especially since it was a Dev that opened the thread. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
169
|
Posted - 2012.06.01 04:40:00 -
[51] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:... its implied especially since it was a Dev that opened the thread. So all (as in OMG Dev SPAM!) the Dev threads from F&I (or was it TSF) that were opened just prior to the forum change and never re-created are still being consulted/read?
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Meditril
T.R.I.A.D Defiant Legacy
78
|
Posted - 2012.06.01 15:11:00 -
[52] - Quote
Here are my proposals:
- Remove e-war entirely from NPC in FW missions and plexes. Reason: e-war makes the game too unbalanced for different factions.
- Give the NPCs the sleeper AI. Reason: This will make the "one is tanking the other is providing damage game" not that easy.
- Make NPCs faster, frigates should use MWD and they should hit at least 2000 m/s if they are going for a target. Cruisers should go for 1000 m/s and battleships 500 m/s. Without this, the change above has not much effect.
- NPC should stop spawning once defender (friendly pilot) is in plex.
- Keep the damage output and tanking ability of NPCs as it is.
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
308
|
Posted - 2012.06.01 19:09:00 -
[53] - Quote
as per many whine post by me:
I love the changes overall even dont mind the dip in LP from sov occupancy and upgrade.
I feel we would get alot more done faster and more fun without the lockouts.
It already takes a very long time with alot of players to take systems and upgrade them, ontop of the pvp - the lockouts should go, even if just few a few weeks to try it out. http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2418
|
Posted - 2012.06.02 20:35:00 -
[54] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:... its implied especially since it was a Dev that opened the thread. So all (as in OMG Dev SPAM!) the Dev threads from F&I (or was it TSF) that were opened just prior to the forum change and never re-created are still being consulted/read?
Well, I obviously can't speak to the activity of every single developer, I just know in this case that Ytterbium's following the thread and taking notes, he doesn't usually post something up unless he really cares about the feedback he receives on that particular issue.
I would say that's *most likely* true for other recent threads as well, the ones that are older may be less likely they're being followed only because CCP has made such a pointed effort in recent months to engage the community because of all the feedback that they weren't doing so in the past.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 19:07:00 -
[55] - Quote
http://a7th.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13549183
Dramiel, deadspace AB, EM/Thermic shield resist amplifiers, MSE, no guns.
This is 91mil loss is just another example of... um... wait... is there any way that you could make this the only viable plex farming fit? Thanks. |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
626
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 13:56:00 -
[56] - Quote
Hey folks,
It's not because we aren't posting anything that we aren't following such threads
As a quick update, we first want to remove all EW from FW NPCs (starting with complexes, FW missions would not be affected for now). This should go out as soon as possible (working on it as we speak).
However, the proper way of fixing this on the long run would be to totally revamp the NPCs though, and that's something we highly consider for this winter as it is extremely difficult to do on its own (current NPCs are used in missions for example). There also are good points mentioned here that we will definitely consider when iterating on this further.
Many thanks for your time and ideas so far! |
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Dynast
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
43
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 22:06:00 -
[57] - Quote
How costly would it be to make killing the NPCs required to finish offensive FW plexes? That would at least somewhat even things out between the militias, particularly in terms of nerfing the one day old afk speed-tank alt that currently works for some races but not others. |
Dopified
Quantum Cats Syndicate
21
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 23:57:00 -
[58] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, It's not because we aren't posting anything that we aren't following such threads As a quick update, we first want to remove all EW from FW NPCs (starting with complexes, FW missions would not be affected for now). This should go out as soon as possible (working on it as we speak). However, the proper way of fixing this on the long run would be to totally revamp the NPCs though, and that's something we highly consider for this winter as it is extremely difficult to do on its own (current NPCs are used in missions for example). There also are good points mentioned here that we will definitely consider when iterating on this further. Many thanks for your time and ideas so far!
I like that you guys are looking at this and guess i just did not come over here to see that it was being talked about when I posted the new thread over in warefare and tactics. I am sorry for that can of worms.
I do not mind the fact that EW is being taken away i guess for most that will fix the problems such as ammar with target painting and such but the problem of damage dealing for the gallente will remain. Would a quick fix be possible to give all the complexes missiles spaming rats that do the damage type accordingly to the different militia's. This in turn will take away the speed tanking the Caldari and Minmatar have and in turn level the playing field for a short time for all. The only reason i say this is that the gallente are being outplexed at such a high rate. I just believe it would cut down on Brand new low sp alts running all plexes in a single system and yes it matters that all three can be run so easy and not just 1 or 2. This makes a difference. With all my rambling i am asking would this be considered for a short term solution just in the complexes? At least until you have your long term solution.
I am not concerned about lp market as much as system control we will simply be limited by what we can do and where we can go if we lose our systems as a whole. And as you see with the numbers we are working hard at trying to combat this on our own. Great job with the expansion it really did achieve the goal of making faction warfare awesome on the pvp front. We have action beyond what i thought it would have brought. |
Soldarius
TreadStone Standard The 99 Percent
224
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:34:00 -
[59] - Quote
Although I have never done faction warfare on TQ, I have tried it out on SiSi. I am sorry to see EWAR go away. No military force in its right mind would deny itself the use of such weapons if they were available.
The problem is that the various types of EWAR are not balanced. This is irrespective of FW. Rather than covering up the problem by removing the offending issue, try fixing it.
All factions should web and scram. These are the basic EWAR needed to hold an enemy down and destroy them.
Minmatar get TP (for their bungholes) to increase damage.
Caldari get ECM do reduce incoming damage.
Gallente get damps to force players to work at close range where their weapons do the most damage.
Amarr get neuts to reduce an enemy's ability to tank damage or even escape at all at close range. Tracking Disruption should be focused on optimal/falloff reduction to force players into close range where neuts are effective.
I also support the idea of having to destroy the defending NPCs to capture an installation. Flying around in space while cloaked or with no weapons for 15-20 minutes and calling ti captured is just not within the realm of believability. It utterly destroys all immersion.
Additionally, I would like to see better AI for faction NPCs. Given an enemy fleet, targets at close range obviously do not need to be range damped. The snipers do. High value targets like logistics, EWAR, and other support ships should be targeted regularly. Target switching should also be possible. The current targeting algorithm is too predictable and completely illogical.
In short, a single player in a frigate should not be able to capture a plex of any kind without some serious effort.
"How do you kill that which has no life?" |
Dynast
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
43
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 00:21:00 -
[60] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Although I have never done faction warfare on TQ, I have tried it out on SiSi. I am sorry to see EWAR go away. No military force in its right mind would deny itself the use of such weapons if they were available.
The problem is that the various types of EWAR are not balanced. This is irrespective of FW. Rather than covering up the problem by removing the offending issue, try fixing it.
All factions should web and scram. These are the basic EWAR needed to hold an enemy down and destroy them.
Minmatar get TP (for their bungholes) to increase damage.
Caldari get ECM do reduce incoming damage.
Gallente get damps to force players to work at close range where their weapons do the most damage.
Amarr get neuts to reduce an enemy's ability to tank damage or even escape at all at close range. Tracking Disruption should be focused on optimal/falloff reduction to force players into close range where neuts are effective.
I also support the idea of having to destroy the defending NPCs to capture an installation. Flying around in space while cloaked or with no weapons for 15-20 minutes and calling ti captured is just not within the realm of believability. It utterly destroys all immersion.
Additionally, I would like to see better AI for faction NPCs. Given an enemy fleet, targets at close range obviously do not need to be range damped. The snipers do. High value targets like logistics, EWAR, and other support ships should be targeted regularly. Target switching should also be possible. The current targeting algorithm is too predictable and completely illogical.
In short, a single player in a frigate should not be able to capture a plex of any kind without some serious effort. These sort of PvE centric changes really aren't appropriate to FW. They don't add anything of value for the people who have joined FW looking for PvP, and that's what FW is supposed to be about: PvP along faction lines. The tougher the plexes get, the less PvPing in them makes sense -- if you have to spec for PvE, you pretty much always get destroyed in PvP. At which point.. why even try engaging? It's no accident that the lion's share of plex pvp is in and around the minors, which can effortlessly be cleared by destroyers.
There are other places to go for players who want enhanced PvE experiences, such as incursions and wormholes. Take it from someone who's in FW for real: this is not what we need, or want. |
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Condor Amarr
Black Watch Guard
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.08 04:56:00 -
[61] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, It's not because we aren't posting anything that we aren't following such threads As a quick update, we first want to remove all EW from FW NPCs (starting with complexes, FW missions would not be affected for now). This should go out as soon as possible (working on it as we speak). However, the proper way of fixing this on the long run would be to totally revamp the NPCs though, and that's something we highly consider for this winter as it is extremely difficult to do on its own (current NPCs are used in missions for example). There also are good points mentioned here that we will definitely consider when iterating on this further. Many thanks for your time and ideas so far!
Thanks for letting us know you are still interested in this.
Can I ask that we PLEASE don't make the same mistake that was made with Incarna. Removing the EWAR from plexes but not from missions is not going to fix the imbalance. Mission runners are part of this war (otherwise why would you advertise their mission by putting a beacon in local) so having the NPC's unchanged in them is still allowing one side to farm them (and therefor farm ISK) whilst the other cannot..... What sense is there in that?
I could happily link another kill showing just how crazy this has gotten, but I think we have all seen enough and no one seems to be disagreeing. |
Botagar
7th Regiment
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.08 12:26:00 -
[62] - Quote
I think people agree that the NPC's need fixing. There are plenty of good ideas already posted so im not going to re-iterate on them. I do want to however voice my opinion that the NPC's im missions should undergo the same balancing act as the NPC's in the FW Plex's. I don't do alot of missioning, but when/if i want to, as someone fighting for the Amarr, its quite impossible to do the missions to the same effeciency the Minmatar can.
NPC balance has to affect ALL aspects of FW, not just the FW plex's.
On another note, increase qualitiy of rats in upgraded systems?
Cheers! |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
268
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 17:44:00 -
[63] - Quote
The ultimate goal of FW plexes is ship limited combat.
CCP should implement code that encourages ship limited combat with appropriately sized ships/gangs for a given plex size. For example, a T1 BC should be most efficient ship to solo a Tier 3 plex (for both attacker and defender).
NPCs should be "dps sinks" for opposing players with little else to do. Note that E-war and NPC dps will always be mitigated by "tankers" of one form or another.
Appropriate Sized Ships: Killing all NPCs requirement in plex would encourage the attackers to bring appropriate amount of dps to a plex (especially if NPCs of both sides are designed to be "dps sinks").
Timer speed based on ship sizes in plex would also encourage appropriately sized ships to run a plex for both attacker and defender (this may be the only answer to afk-alt defensive plexers)
Encourage Combat rather than Bailing: Timer to move to baseline feature if nobody is on timer (at perhaps an increased rate of 2x, or 5x) encourages plexers to stay and fight and to bring fighting ships to plexes. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2432
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 17:44:00 -
[64] - Quote
Looks like the NPC E-war removal in FW plexes is now on Singularity for testing, go try it out!
Condor - this isn't intended to be the "last word" on NPC balancing, but a temporary measure to cut back on the discouraging effect that the E-war has on PvP within the plexes.
Gallentius - exactly, those would be the goals when the actual AI and capabilities of the NPC's themselves are overhauled. That however is a much more ambitious project, this ewar removal is simply to address the fact that a lot of people don't want to engage a defender that has a boatload of E-war on his side. Hopefully it'll lead to more PvP in the short term. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
268
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 17:57:00 -
[65] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Looks like the NPC E-war removal in FW plexes is now on Singularity for testing, go try it out!
Condor - this isn't intended to be the "last word" on NPC balancing, but a temporary measure to cut back on the discouraging effect that the E-war has on PvP within the plexes.
Gallentius - exactly, those would be the goals when the actual AI and capabilities of the NPC's themselves are overhauled. That however is a much more ambitious project, this ewar removal is simply to address the fact that a lot of people don't want to engage a defender that has a boatload of E-war on his side. Hopefully it'll lead to more PvP in the short term. Hans, I'm just throwing out a suggestion that I think is feasible for FW plexing mechanics in the future. Spending significant time recoding NPC features nobody who wants to PVP is interested in (maybe people interested in PVE and farming care) may not be the best use of resources. I'm sure the devs will figure it out.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2432
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 18:08:00 -
[66] - Quote
Oh, I see what you're saying now. Haven't had enough coffee yet this morning. You're talking about taking care of the issue from a timer angle, not the NPC angle. That definitely has its merits.
I think up to this point the line of thinking has been more on how to adjust the NPC AI themselves to encourage this "sweet spot" in terms of gang size and to discourage speed tanking / farming (by using smarter, incursion-like rats), but I like your angle of tackling the plex timer mechanic itself. That is certainly a good place for the developers to investigate the issue as well, I agree. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
361
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 22:21:00 -
[67] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Oh, I see what you're saying now. Haven't had enough coffee yet this morning. You're talking about taking care of the issue from a timer angle, not the NPC angle. That definitely has its merits.
I think up to this point the line of thinking has been more on how to adjust the NPC AI themselves to encourage this "sweet spot" in terms of gang size and to discourage speed tanking / farming (by using smarter, incursion-like rats), but I like your angle of tackling the plex timer mechanic itself. That is certainly a good place for the developers to investigate the issue as well, I agree.
Well, removing all ewar from all NPCs is not the way to discourage speed tanking by week old farming alts, that's for sure. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2443
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 22:26:00 -
[68] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Oh, I see what you're saying now. Haven't had enough coffee yet this morning. You're talking about taking care of the issue from a timer angle, not the NPC angle. That definitely has its merits.
I think up to this point the line of thinking has been more on how to adjust the NPC AI themselves to encourage this "sweet spot" in terms of gang size and to discourage speed tanking / farming (by using smarter, incursion-like rats), but I like your angle of tackling the plex timer mechanic itself. That is certainly a good place for the developers to investigate the issue as well, I agree. Well, removing all ewar from all NPCs is not the way to discourage speed tanking by week old farming alts, that's for sure.
Let's be honest, the EWAR isn't doing its job to prevent that anyways. At least this way no one will hesitate to go in after them, other than the fact that they could just warp off if they don't want to PvP anyways.
The only sure-fire way to force the ship up is to require the killing of NPC's. While I certainly agree this would reduce farming, I'm hestitant to require more NPC-shooting grinds in what is still a PvP system to me. I think that a lot of us would still prefer to let some speed tankers get away, than to be forced into NPC shooting. But its worthy of further discussoin. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
361
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 22:33:00 -
[69] - Quote
Well, I have very little experience with it so I'm not exactly knowledgeable, but to hear some people in the CvG conflict tell, frigate alts ninjaing plexes are ubiquitous and make what they consider "legitimate" progress very difficult. This could be heresy or exaggeration or both, of course, but it would seem to me that simply giving every plex a few long range webbing towers would be a decent bandaid while CCP comes up with a better solution. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
182
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 04:57:00 -
[70] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Let's be honest, the EWAR isn't doing its job to prevent that anyways. At least this way no one will hesitate to go in after them, other than the fact that they could just warp off if they don't want to PvP anyways.
The only sure-fire way to force the ship up is to require the killing of NPC's. While I certainly agree this would reduce farming, I'm hestitant to require more NPC-shooting grinds in what is still a PvP system to me. I think that a lot of us would still prefer to let some speed tankers get away, than to be forced into NPC shooting. But its worthy of further discussion. The only "real" long term solution would be something similar to what I posted early on in this thread (P.1 I believe) .. AI coding.
eWar removal will not really do much other than speed up system flips as everyone and their mother will be able to solo cap everythin; gangs are already killing rats and solo plexers generally run regardless .. should help a bit with the occasional fight that happens on/near timer before rats are killed off but not that common to begin with so 'meh'.
By the by, requiring destruction of NPCs (aka. PvE grind) is more than OK now that people are paid massive amounts of LP for their time .. on top of tags/loot gained from said destruction. Once we start doing what null has been doing for years, asking for something for nothing, then we will well and truly be lost .. FW will decompose (already dead, being flogged) and the sky fall.
PS: Looking forward to seeing the difference in plexing speed Amarr will be able to pull off when they get the same ability as the Mimes has had since day 1 (solo frig capping).
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Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Minmatar's Shadow
90
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 09:41:00 -
[71] - Quote
This is what I'd think would be the perfect fix to plexes:
- All NPCs should be heavily nerfed (heavily decrease the numbers).
- The amount of NPCs should depend on how many systems that faction has (I.E. Current Amarr would have more NPCs than Minmatar since Amarr have fewer systems).
- Defencive plexing time should be around four times shorter.
- Defencive plexing should give a small LP reward.
- Defencive plexing should cause the plex to close instead of increasing the timer (not exactly sure how this works now).
- NO E-WAR OF ANY KIND!
- Balance NPCs so minor plexes are easier to do in a frigate than majors (should still be easy to speed-tank majors in a frigate).
This would hopefully encourage more people to do defencive plexing, which would force the offencive plexers to fight for their plexes instead of warping off to a safespot and going AFK. It would also encourage the offencive plexers to fight for their plexes, since NPCs would either have been killed or would just be a small bother. It would also encourage offencive plexers to do the smaller plexes because it would allow them to more easily deal with the NPCs and defencive plexers. Hopefully, it would make it impossible to farm plexes in an eight day old Vigil. |
Kreiga Khamsi
Black Watch Guard
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 11:41:00 -
[72] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Let's be honest, the EWAR isn't doing its job to prevent that anyways. At least this way no one will hesitate to go in after them, other than the fact that they could just warp off if they don't want to PvP anyways.
The only sure-fire way to force the ship up is to require the killing of NPC's. While I certainly agree this would reduce farming, I'm hestitant to require more NPC-shooting grinds in what is still a PvP system to me. I think that a lot of us would still prefer to let some speed tankers get away, than to be forced into NPC shooting. But its worthy of further discussion. The only "real" long term solution would be something similar to what I posted early on in this thread (P.1 I believe) .. AI coding. eWar removal will not really do much other than speed up system flips as everyone and their mother will be able to solo cap everythin; gangs are already killing rats and solo plexers generally run regardless .. should help a bit with the occasional fight that happens on/near timer before rats are killed off but not that common to begin with so 'meh'. By the by, requiring destruction of NPCs (aka. PvE grind) is more than OK now that people are paid massive amounts of LP for their time .. on top of tags/loot gained from said destruction. Once we start doing what null has been doing for years, asking for something for nothing, then we will well and truly be lost .. FW will decompose (already dead, being flogged) and the sky fall. PS: Looking forward to seeing the difference in plexing speed Amarr will be able to pull off when they get the same ability as the Mimes has had since day 1 (solo frig capping).
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
460
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 13:43:00 -
[73] - Quote
There are allot of good ideas here.
XGallentius is right the npcs should really be a dps sink. Chatgris is right they shouldn't interfere with pvp. And pretty much everyone is agrees speedtanking plexes is a problem. I think the following changes - mostly proposed by others - would work well:
1) must kill all rats
2) the rats will orbit the button and not leave that orbit range and only agro when the timer is running. If the timer stops they stop aggroing. This will do 3 things: A) it will mean if a war target warps in the person running the plex can go outside the timer range and fight without worring about rat damage. B) It will prevent one ship from comming in collecting the aggro orbiting outside range while a small long range destroyer just shoots the rats inside the orbit range C) If it is a newer player having problems with the rats they can shoot the rats outside the orbit button. This of course means it will take longer for them to run the plex. But gives them an option.
3) Have the rats use small weapon systems. Having battleships shoot torpedoes is just asking players to speedtank the plexes in a small ship. Instead of torpedoes the rats should use light missiles/assault and rockets. Battleships will just fit more of them and have more damage mods. They should also use smaller guns that can track. The rats might also get a speed boost. This will mean that a) the overall dps will go down,(allowing more pvp fits to be used in plexes) but also b)the rats will hit smaller ships almost as hard as bigger ships - which means people will use the bigger ships. Perhaps some of the ships will stay in orbits throughout the range instead of chasing us if that will mean it is harder to kite them inide the orbit range.
4) Possibly increase the tank on the npcs. I'm not sure how necessary this is but its something ccp can tweak if necessary. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cheekything
Dark-Rising
99
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 15:19:00 -
[74] - Quote
1) Rat AI needs an update. 2) Anyone not participating in the militia should be shot by the NPCs as well, pirates are having too much fun at our expense. 3) Less Plexes overall per system. 4) Longer Timers on Plexes and more rewards for more people (or bring the right amount of people). 5) Defensive plexes are needing an update, they give no reward and it just results in everyone ping ponging the space about. 6) More Plexes Sizes, have ones for capitalship and battleships that give huge rewards but are also highly risky, means we will have more than just destroyer and cruiser fleets to play with. 7) Only spawn Plexes in waring neighboring systems, this will create point of conflict rather than who can carebear the most plexes over all factional warfare space and there can always be ones as they will get pushed towards high sec. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
362
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 15:29:00 -
[75] - Quote
Cheekything wrote: 7) Only spawn Plexes in waring neighboring systems, this will create point of conflict rather than who can carebear the most plexes over all factional warfare space and there can always be ones as they will get pushed towards high sec.
This isn't a very good solution - it allows a dominating entity (such as Minmatar) to focus their efforts along a very small front, and the defender will be unable to open new fronts by ninja plexing in the rear. Don't get me wrong - I don't think ninja plexing should be IMPOSSIBLE but I think that it should require a group or at least a commitment of a larger, more capable ship, rather than a day old alt in an afterburning frigate. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2452
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 16:01:00 -
[76] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Well, removing all ewar from all NPCs is not the way to discourage speed tanking by week old farming alts, that's for sure.
I completely agree, but the EWAR change was suggested because of the overwhelming feedback about the current *imbalance* of racial e-war, not its effect on speedtanking. Removing E-war from plexes is intended to create at least a more fair plexing environment so that some races don't suffer more than others when offensively plexing until a complete overhaul can be completed.
The increase in speed tanking would be an unwanted temporary side effect, which has now sparked this new wave of "force us to kill the rats" feedback, ironically from an historically PvP-oriented crowd. I still don't like the idea of *forcing* anyone to PvE in FW, ever, but I also understand that counter intuitively it may actually increase PvP in the long run.
Let's put it this way - are you guys are saying that you'd rather have unbalanced Ewar but less speedtanking, or more balanced plexing enviroments at the cost of some anti-speed tanking measures?
We're talking short term vs long term here, I think its best to try to reach a consensus on whether ewar removal *alone* does more harm than good, like I said its a band-aid and doesnt have to be implemented in the meantime, but its on the test server and worth discussing sooner than later.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
182
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 16:12:00 -
[77] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:We're talking short term vs long term here, I think its best to try to reach a consensus on whether ewar removal *alone* does more harm than good, like I said its a band-aid and doesnt have to be implemented in the meantime, but its on the test server and worth discussing sooner than later. No, the eWar band-aid is sorely needed .. your mission, should you choose to accept it .. is to make sure CCP starts planning/scheming the "real" fix ASAP so they can not only make it fit in with FW (non-FarmVilleGäó version) but also use it to foster a proper PvP environment .. will require a lot of thought I think, not to mention a potentially heavy workload dependent on solution chosen.
Ideally we'd have the anti-farm band-aid in the form of "Kill Everything!" in conjunction with the eWar band-aid, but that is two FW items in between expansions which is probably one more than is allowed by CCP corporate policy, labour laws or some such |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
362
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 16:30:00 -
[78] - Quote
The issue with ewar, as I understand it, is the imbalance between factions, right? Particularly with regards to caldari ECM. So would there be a problem with removing all the ewar, replacing it with a stasis tower or three per plex to bandaid the speedtanking issue, and then working on a longer term solution? |
Fidelium Mortis
Quantum Cats Syndicate
89
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 17:51:00 -
[79] - Quote
Kreiga Khamsi wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Let's be honest, the EWAR isn't doing its job to prevent that anyways. At least this way no one will hesitate to go in after them, other than the fact that they could just warp off if they don't want to PvP anyways.
The only sure-fire way to force the ship up is to require the killing of NPC's. While I certainly agree this would reduce farming, I'm hestitant to require more NPC-shooting grinds in what is still a PvP system to me. I think that a lot of us would still prefer to let some speed tankers get away, than to be forced into NPC shooting. But its worthy of further discussion. The only "real" long term solution would be something similar to what I posted early on in this thread (P.1 I believe) .. AI coding. eWar removal will not really do much other than speed up system flips as everyone and their mother will be able to solo cap everythin; gangs are already killing rats and solo plexers generally run regardless .. should help a bit with the occasional fight that happens on/near timer before rats are killed off but not that common to begin with so 'meh'. By the by, requiring destruction of NPCs (aka. PvE grind) is more than OK now that people are paid massive amounts of LP for their time .. on top of tags/loot gained from said destruction. Once we start doing what null has been doing for years, asking for something for nothing, then we will well and truly be lost .. FW will decompose (already dead, being flogged) and the sky fall. PS: Looking forward to seeing the difference in plexing speed Amarr will be able to pull off when they get the same ability as the Mimes has had since day 1 (solo frig capping). I agree with 90% of the above (and 100% of his post on page 1). Removing the EWAR from plexes will not encourage PvP, in fact I contend it will make PvP harder. Removing the EWAR will simply allow all sides to farm LP in frigs and never have to commit to a fight. There is an ever increasing number of people farming LP from plexes in frigs (some without even having guns as can be seen by KM linked earlier in this thread) who will warp out of the plex as soon as you hit the gate; they warp to a safe, most have a cloak fitted and they just wait for you leave so they can go back to farming the LP. Plexing has become more like hunting WT missioning in SB than anything else. The only real way to catch them is hope they get complacent and you surprise them. Hans please don't take this as disrespect but removing the EWAR will not take FW back to its PvP roots; all it will do is encourage carebears to come to lowsec and farm LP with relative ease. I have not read any posts on here (I don't think) that have asked for the plexes to be easier to cap, they want it to be fair. In fact the vast majority of the posts have said that it should be harder to cap a plex (e.g. kill all the NPC). You want the LP, then earn it. I also agree with Veshta that the NPC grind will be far less of an issue given the reward people are getting for plexing now. I would also like to acknowledge the good work the devs are doing at trying to show FW some love and improving this area of EVE, I just don't think they have got it quite right yet. There has to be a way to stop the ridiculous amount of farming that is currently going on and get FW back the PvP roots it was founded on. Just my thoughts.
I'll give you a couple examples of how plex EWAR discourages pvp.
A couple of days ago, I decided to take my slicer and blitz a Caldari thrasher and merlin sitting inside a fully spawned major with the hopes of burning one down before the rats burn through my tank. As the merlin enters armor, I get jammed and the merlin bails and I have to warp out as the dps starts to pile on. I try again, this time going for the thrasher, and the same thing happens after I get off my first couple of volleys.
At least on the gallente side, any engagement in a medium or major plex usually takes into account losing at least 1 ship to jamming rats, if not more if the plex is spawned more. Which means you have to either bring additional people to compensate (which often means the targets warp off), or you don't engage (senselessly losing ships). This also severely limits your options for going in with an undermanned group where every ship counts.
ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
460
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 19:44:00 -
[80] - Quote
Fidelium Mortis wrote:Kreiga Khamsi wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Let's be honest, the EWAR isn't doing its job to prevent that anyways. At least this way no one will hesitate to go in after them, other than the fact that they could just warp off if they don't want to PvP anyways.
The only sure-fire way to force the ship up is to require the killing of NPC's. While I certainly agree this would reduce farming, I'm hestitant to require more NPC-shooting grinds in what is still a PvP system to me. I think that a lot of us would still prefer to let some speed tankers get away, than to be forced into NPC shooting. But its worthy of further discussion. The only "real" long term solution would be something similar to what I posted early on in this thread (P.1 I believe) .. AI coding. eWar removal will not really do much other than speed up system flips as everyone and their mother will be able to solo cap everythin; gangs are already killing rats and solo plexers generally run regardless .. should help a bit with the occasional fight that happens on/near timer before rats are killed off but not that common to begin with so 'meh'. By the by, requiring destruction of NPCs (aka. PvE grind) is more than OK now that people are paid massive amounts of LP for their time .. on top of tags/loot gained from said destruction. Once we start doing what null has been doing for years, asking for something for nothing, then we will well and truly be lost .. FW will decompose (already dead, being flogged) and the sky fall. PS: Looking forward to seeing the difference in plexing speed Amarr will be able to pull off when they get the same ability as the Mimes has had since day 1 (solo frig capping). I agree with 90% of the above (and 100% of his post on page 1). Removing the EWAR from plexes will not encourage PvP, in fact I contend it will make PvP harder. Removing the EWAR will simply allow all sides to farm LP in frigs and never have to commit to a fight. There is an ever increasing number of people farming LP from plexes in frigs (some without even having guns as can be seen by KM linked earlier in this thread) who will warp out of the plex as soon as you hit the gate; they warp to a safe, most have a cloak fitted and they just wait for you leave so they can go back to farming the LP. Plexing has become more like hunting WT missioning in SB than anything else. The only real way to catch them is hope they get complacent and you surprise them. Hans please don't take this as disrespect but removing the EWAR will not take FW back to its PvP roots; all it will do is encourage carebears to come to lowsec and farm LP with relative ease. I have not read any posts on here (I don't think) that have asked for the plexes to be easier to cap, they want it to be fair. In fact the vast majority of the posts have said that it should be harder to cap a plex (e.g. kill all the NPC). You want the LP, then earn it. I also agree with Veshta that the NPC grind will be far less of an issue given the reward people are getting for plexing now. I would also like to acknowledge the good work the devs are doing at trying to show FW some love and improving this area of EVE, I just don't think they have got it quite right yet. There has to be a way to stop the ridiculous amount of farming that is currently going on and get FW back the PvP roots it was founded on. Just my thoughts. I'll give you a couple examples of how plex EWAR discourages pvp. A couple of days ago, I decided to take my slicer and blitz a Caldari thrasher and merlin sitting inside a fully spawned major with the hopes of burning one down before the rats burn through my tank. As the merlin enters armor, I get jammed and the merlin bails and I have to warp out as the dps starts to pile on. I try again, this time going for the thrasher, and the same thing happens after I get off my first couple of volleys. At least on the gallente side, any engagement in a medium or major plex usually takes into account losing at least 1 ship to jamming rats, if not more if the plex is spawned more. Which means you have to either bring additional people to compensate (which often means the targets warp off), or you don't engage (senselessly losing ships). This also severely limits your options for going in with an undermanned group where every ship counts.
For the amarr its just that by the time we burn to the ships by the button, if there are a significant number of rats, we will have our tank decimated before we can even point the enemy. I remember I was in a drake in an open plex and another pirate was in a drake in an open plex. We were both drawing so much aggro that by the time we got into point range we were both had to warp out. How much the painters and missile spam cause this I don't know. But I think the lack of painters can only be helpful.
These are just examples. I have had too many times that the rats have screwed up a good pvp fight to count. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
461
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 19:55:00 -
[81] - Quote
corestwo wrote:The issue with ewar, as I understand it, is the imbalance between factions, right? Particularly with regards to caldari ECM. So would there be a problem with removing all the ewar, replacing it with a stasis tower or three per plex to bandaid the speedtanking issue, and then working on a longer term solution?
This is an idea worth considering but I woudln't like it in plexes for this reason:
With the very small gang pvp (like of 1-3 per side) that plexing often delivers your speed is very important. Almost none of my plexing fits will work if I they are turned into a brick by numerous webs. It will be very hard to hold anyone long enough to kill them. You combine knowing your opponent is going to be webbed with some tracking disruptors or even damps and we have a whole new ballgame that is pretty far removed from pvp in the rest of eve. Some might not view that as a problem but I wouldn't like that at all.
However I do think this would work well for missions and preventing the speedtank /stealth bomber approach. I look at missions as a form of pve. I am ok with missions remaining pve - ie your supposed to warp out when pvpers come. The only time I would really pvp in my missions is when I am using them mainly as bait. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
96
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 21:57:00 -
[82] - Quote
The reason Gallente can't speed tank plexes like the squids do is because of the NPC damage type, not anything to do with ECM EWAR. To be sure it will make PVP easier in the plexes than it was before, but the speed tanking issue, at least on this end of the FW arena, is completely unrelated to NPC ewar. Missile spam is what keeps us soloing the larger plexes in T1 frigs. You can maybe do mediums with good skills and a good Incursus fit, but the majors are more or less closed to you without some ridiculous skills, or a better ship.
This is at the heart of the occupancy warfare imbalance over here. The squids can run all kinds of plexes with a single type of ship. That means they can go into the backwaters and plex to their heart's content, and never have to stop because they don't burn ammo, don't use up cap booster charges, and most of all, they don't have to reship. We don't have this luxury. The result is that the squids can plex at a far higher rate than we can when plexing in an area far behind the lines. This means that pretty much every system is in play for us defensively, whereas that is not as much a problem for the Caldari.
To reiterate, EWAR has nothing to do with the speed tanking issue in the Cal/Gal side of FW. The issue here is the missile spam and how it is far more effective against frigs than the blaster/rail dps from Gallente rats in Gallente plexes.
Also, Hans you can't say you don't want to make people do more PVE when you're already forcing them to orbit timers for extended periods of time. Either we recognize that speed tanking is an issue and do something about it, or we don't and we continue to let one side have an unfair advantage over the other. |
Kreiga Khamsi
Black Watch Guard
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 22:29:00 -
[83] - Quote
For those that replied to my post, I am sorry I didn't explain myself very well. I absolutely agree with the removal of EWAR from plexes. Re-reading it I see how I may have accross that I was advocating something different. EWAR should be removed because it is a hindrance to PvP, but that on its own won't create PvP situations either. To me it actually encourages farming. Last night a few of us were flying around for hours looking for fights in plexes but as soon as we warp in, even when outnumbered, the WT would warp to a safe and simply wait for us to leave. When we inquired why they would not fight they openly said because they were there to farm LP, not get involved on fights. That is just as frustrating as having NPC EWAR decide the outcomes of fights. Like I said it is becoming like hunting missioning SB.
I agree with the removal of EWAR, but that is only half the solution. Stopping the LP farming has to be high on the priority list as well. |
Cheekything
Dark-Rising
99
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 22:38:00 -
[84] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Cheekything wrote: 7) Only spawn Plexes in waring neighboring systems, this will create point of conflict rather than who can carebear the most plexes over all factional warfare space and there can always be ones as they will get pushed towards high sec.
This isn't a very good solution - it allows a dominating entity (such as Minmatar) to focus their efforts along a very small front, and the defender will be unable to open new fronts by ninja plexing in the rear. Don't get me wrong - I don't think ninja plexing should be IMPOSSIBLE but I think that it should require a group or at least a commitment of a larger, more capable ship, rather than a day old alt in an afterburning frigate.
That is true but on the flip side in the Gallente / Caldari side I did a quick run around this morning and all the Caldari areas had 1 or 2 Gallente and all the Gallente had 1 or 2 Caldari.
This fails the point of factional warefare.
Also if you included in a system that if your Faction has more overall points than the opposite side then you'd get more complexes in their systems for the other side to beat or something.
Yes it would lead to focused areas of combat but with focused areas comes more PVP, in no where in EVE is the fighting so random, even in wormhole space people dont aimlessly wander they stay within a set number of jumps in fear that they will get stuck.
What I'm saying is we need targets not "go complex in every system". |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
192
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 03:37:00 -
[85] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:corestwo wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Oh, I see what you're saying now. Haven't had enough coffee yet this morning. You're talking about taking care of the issue from a timer angle, not the NPC angle. That definitely has its merits.
I think up to this point the line of thinking has been more on how to adjust the NPC AI themselves to encourage this "sweet spot" in terms of gang size and to discourage speed tanking / farming (by using smarter, incursion-like rats), but I like your angle of tackling the plex timer mechanic itself. That is certainly a good place for the developers to investigate the issue as well, I agree. Well, removing all ewar from all NPCs is not the way to discourage speed tanking by week old farming alts, that's for sure. Let's be honest, the EWAR isn't doing its job to prevent that anyways. At least this way no one will hesitate to go in after them, other than the fact that they could just warp off if they don't want to PvP anyways. The only sure-fire way to force the ship up is to require the killing of NPC's. While I certainly agree this would reduce farming, I'm hestitant to require more NPC-shooting grinds in what is still a PvP system to me. I think that a lot of us would still prefer to let some speed tankers get away, than to be forced into NPC shooting. But its worthy of further discussion. I'm sorry to say Hans, but you are wrong on this. Ewar DOES stop people speed tanking when it is balanced and done right (i.e. Minmitar NPCs) and not wrong (Amarr NPCs). The complaints about EWar and NPCs have been because they are UNBALANCED. Amarr need more than a frig to capture a MAJOR because they cannot speed tank due to the missile spam AND TP we receive. We have to kill the rats as a result. The minmitar don't need to shoot the rats at all because they can speed tank them.
The solution CCP SHOULD implement to partially fix the FW plexing mechanics is NOT to remove Ewar. Let that stay for now. Instead they should require that ALL NPCs in a plex have to be killed before the site can be captured. This fits in with RP elements of the NPCs defending a plex AND goes some way to addressing the farming in a 10mn AB fitted frig with no weapons problem we are complaining about. This will give CCP time to view how this changes plexing and the warzone AND time to overhaul the NPCs.
The OTHER thing they need to do is fix the plex bugs that allow people to bug timers so we can't defensively plex when we have a TZ number advantage. Currently just before DT Amarr are finding alot of bugged timers when we have a chance of offensively/defensively plexing with a number advantage. This advantage goes after DT, but the timers are all reset, giving the Minmitar an unfair advantge - unbugged timers in a TZ they can run plexes and then the ability to bug said timers when the Amarr get some numbers available. We can't win under these circumstances. The response from CCP on at least 3 petitions from 3 members of my corp now is something along the lines of "We can't spawn/fix the timers etc... Hopefully DT will clean this up. And yes, the devs ARE aware of this issue...". This has been an issue since before I have been in FW - some tell me it is 4 years old...
Another change CCP needs to make is a check of what militia you belong to BEFORE a standings check occurs. Make it so that your Militia allegence overrides any standings. This fixes people bumping up their standings to avoid being shot by NPCs when farming plexes AND makes it so people who join a militia with low standings don't get shot. When I first joined FW, I didn't have much in the way of Amarr standings. I would go into a plex and my own NPCs would shoot me instead of the WT I was attempting to kill/chase out of the plex. This prevented me from HELPING the "friendly" NPCs.
Speaking of friendly NPCs shooting me, I still haven't had my petition answered as to WHY Amarr NPCs targetted me the other day when I was chasing a WT out of a defensive plex. (I've had a corp mate report the same issue.)
Comms went like this
* Corp Mate - "Har. Get down there and help the NPCs vs that WT" (me in a buffer armor cane vs a SFI with a fast tackle corp mate also in the plex * Me - "Sorry, need to bail. The NPCs have targetted me and are shooting me. I won't be able to tank them whilst chasing the SFI around"...
I suggest CCP and everyone else read this thread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=118626
FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
192
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 03:39:00 -
[86] - Quote
Kreiga Khamsi wrote:For those that replied to my post, I am sorry I didn't explain myself very well. I absolutely agree with the removal of EWAR from plexes. Re-reading it I see how I may have accross that I was advocating something different. EWAR should be removed because it is a hindrance to PvP, but that on its own won't create PvP situations either. To me it actually encourages farming. Last night a few of us were flying around for hours looking for fights in plexes but as soon as we warp in, even when outnumbered, the WT would warp to a safe and simply wait for us to leave. When we inquired why they would not fight they openly said because they were there to farm LP, not get involved on fights. That is just as frustrating as having NPC EWAR decide the outcomes of fights. Like I said it is becoming like hunting missioning SB.
I agree with the removal of EWAR, but that is only half the solution. Stopping the LP farming (read frigates speed tanking Majors) has to be high on the priority list as well. Then logically, wouldn't EWAR lead to pvp since the farmers would not be able to farm with the combination of EWar And being required to kill the NPCs. No farmers left would mean only pvp people left??? FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Condor Amarr
Black Watch Guard
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 04:10:00 -
[87] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Kreiga Khamsi wrote:For those that replied to my post, I am sorry I didn't explain myself very well. I absolutely agree with the removal of EWAR from plexes. Re-reading it I see how I may have accross that I was advocating something different. EWAR should be removed because it is a hindrance to PvP, but that on its own won't create PvP situations either. To me it actually encourages farming. Last night a few of us were flying around for hours looking for fights in plexes but as soon as we warp in, even when outnumbered, the WT would warp to a safe and simply wait for us to leave. When we inquired why they would not fight they openly said because they were there to farm LP, not get involved on fights. That is just as frustrating as having NPC EWAR decide the outcomes of fights. Like I said it is becoming like hunting missioning SB.
I agree with the removal of EWAR, but that is only half the solution. Stopping the LP farming (read frigates speed tanking Majors) has to be high on the priority list as well. Then logically, wouldn't EWAR lead to pvp since the farmers would not be able to farm with the combination of EWar And being required to kill the NPCs. No farmers left would mean only pvp people left???
No. We have EWAR now and we aren't getting PvP. What makes you think that by doing nothing, it will somehow change?
EWAR needs to go (and really glad it is, thanks again Hans).
From the Amarr/Minmatar side (can't/wont speak for the Cal/Gal side because I don't have enough knowledge on it), the EWAR issue is that the Minmatar EWAR is offensive, meaning it causes additional DPS on Amarr ships (being smashed with missile spam whilst being TP by 4-5 ships really hurts :p). Where are the Amarr EWAR is defensive (TD). The problem with THAT is there is NO requirement for Minmatar to actually do anything offensive. They simply warp in, click orbit and watch local/short range scan (please stop watching short-range scan, you are costing me kills). This has been proven over and over by the kills which show some cowards getting around with no guns but a cloak on their ship. If Amarr tried this, we would be TP and missile spammed to hell.
If you wanted EWAR to mean something, then you would need to give the Minnies a requirement to actually shoot at something. There is currently no incentive to do that, so why would they? It's been said several times, they are more than happy (and aren't the only ones, I am sure) to orbit buttons and then just warp out and cloak their Rifter until we leave.
I think we have taken 1 step forward. Unfortunately, if CCP go ahead and remove EWAR without actually fixing the problem (IE - Make us shoot all NPCs etc) then we really are just putting a band-aid on the issue. All this will do is cause Amarr to have plexing "bots" who do nothing other than orbit buttons for LP, the same as the Minmatar have now.
At the end of the day, the biggest attraction to FW (for me personally and for other I have spoken to) was the constant small-gang/solo PvP, without the BS "alarm-clock Eve" that 0.0 demands. If we can have that, I think you'll find us "lolFW PvPers" can go back to shooting each other and CCP can focus on other stuff.
|
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
193
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 05:50:00 -
[88] - Quote
Condor Amarr wrote:Har Harrison wrote:Kreiga Khamsi wrote:For those that replied to my post, I am sorry I didn't explain myself very well. I absolutely agree with the removal of EWAR from plexes. Re-reading it I see how I may have accross that I was advocating something different. EWAR should be removed because it is a hindrance to PvP, but that on its own won't create PvP situations either. To me it actually encourages farming. Last night a few of us were flying around for hours looking for fights in plexes but as soon as we warp in, even when outnumbered, the WT would warp to a safe and simply wait for us to leave. When we inquired why they would not fight they openly said because they were there to farm LP, not get involved on fights. That is just as frustrating as having NPC EWAR decide the outcomes of fights. Like I said it is becoming like hunting missioning SB.
I agree with the removal of EWAR, but that is only half the solution. Stopping the LP farming (read frigates speed tanking Majors) has to be high on the priority list as well. Then logically, wouldn't EWAR lead to pvp since the farmers would not be able to farm with the combination of EWar And being required to kill the NPCs. No farmers left would mean only pvp people left??? No. We have EWAR now and we aren't getting PvP. What makes you think that by doing nothing, it will somehow change? EWAR needs to go (and really glad it is, thanks again Hans). From the Amarr/Minmatar side (can't/wont speak for the Cal/Gal side because I don't have enough knowledge on it), the EWAR issue is that the Minmatar EWAR is offensive, meaning it causes additional DPS on Amarr ships (being smashed with missile spam whilst being TP by 4-5 ships really hurts :p). Where are the Amarr EWAR is defensive (TD). The problem with THAT is there is NO requirement for Minmatar to actually do anything offensive. They simply warp in, click orbit and watch local/short range scan (please stop watching short-range scan, you are costing me kills). This has been proven over and over by the kills which show some cowards getting around with no guns but a cloak on their ship. If Amarr tried this, we would be TP and missile spammed to hell. If you wanted EWAR to mean something, then you would need to give the Minnies a requirement to actually shoot at something. There is currently no incentive to do that, so why would they? It's been said several times, they are more than happy (and aren't the only ones, I am sure) to orbit buttons and then just warp out and cloak their Rifter until we leave. I think we have taken 1 step forward. Unfortunately, if CCP go ahead and remove EWAR without actually fixing the problem (IE - Make us shoot all NPCs etc) then we really are just putting a band-aid on the issue. All this will do is cause Amarr to have plexing "bots" who do nothing other than orbit buttons for LP, the same as the Minmatar have now. At the end of the day, the biggest attraction to FW (for me personally and for other I have spoken to) was the constant small-gang/solo PvP, without the BS "alarm-clock Eve" that 0.0 demands. If we can have that, I think you'll find us "lolFW PvPers" can go back to shooting each other and CCP can focus on other stuff. I think you just made my point. No Ewar means they can speed tank and orbit the button. BALANCED EWar means they need to clear the rats to remove the incoming DPS. Ergo, removing Ewar just means Amarr can now do to the Minmitar what they have been doing to us - rolling noob alts to farm LP. The required fix is to KEEP the Ewar and make them kill the NPCs. If they want the LP, they have to fit weapons and hopefully at that point will fight vs running off to farm another plex.
FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Condor Amarr
Black Watch Guard
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 08:03:00 -
[89] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Condor Amarr wrote:Har Harrison wrote:Kreiga Khamsi wrote:For those that replied to my post, I am sorry I didn't explain myself very well. I absolutely agree with the removal of EWAR from plexes. Re-reading it I see how I may have accross that I was advocating something different. EWAR should be removed because it is a hindrance to PvP, but that on its own won't create PvP situations either. To me it actually encourages farming. Last night a few of us were flying around for hours looking for fights in plexes but as soon as we warp in, even when outnumbered, the WT would warp to a safe and simply wait for us to leave. When we inquired why they would not fight they openly said because they were there to farm LP, not get involved on fights. That is just as frustrating as having NPC EWAR decide the outcomes of fights. Like I said it is becoming like hunting missioning SB.
I agree with the removal of EWAR, but that is only half the solution. Stopping the LP farming (read frigates speed tanking Majors) has to be high on the priority list as well. Then logically, wouldn't EWAR lead to pvp since the farmers would not be able to farm with the combination of EWar And being required to kill the NPCs. No farmers left would mean only pvp people left??? No. We have EWAR now and we aren't getting PvP. What makes you think that by doing nothing, it will somehow change? EWAR needs to go (and really glad it is, thanks again Hans). From the Amarr/Minmatar side (can't/wont speak for the Cal/Gal side because I don't have enough knowledge on it), the EWAR issue is that the Minmatar EWAR is offensive, meaning it causes additional DPS on Amarr ships (being smashed with missile spam whilst being TP by 4-5 ships really hurts :p). Where are the Amarr EWAR is defensive (TD). The problem with THAT is there is NO requirement for Minmatar to actually do anything offensive. They simply warp in, click orbit and watch local/short range scan (please stop watching short-range scan, you are costing me kills). This has been proven over and over by the kills which show some cowards getting around with no guns but a cloak on their ship. If Amarr tried this, we would be TP and missile spammed to hell. If you wanted EWAR to mean something, then you would need to give the Minnies a requirement to actually shoot at something. There is currently no incentive to do that, so why would they? It's been said several times, they are more than happy (and aren't the only ones, I am sure) to orbit buttons and then just warp out and cloak their Rifter until we leave. I think we have taken 1 step forward. Unfortunately, if CCP go ahead and remove EWAR without actually fixing the problem (IE - Make us shoot all NPCs etc) then we really are just putting a band-aid on the issue. All this will do is cause Amarr to have plexing "bots" who do nothing other than orbit buttons for LP, the same as the Minmatar have now. At the end of the day, the biggest attraction to FW (for me personally and for other I have spoken to) was the constant small-gang/solo PvP, without the BS "alarm-clock Eve" that 0.0 demands. If we can have that, I think you'll find us "lolFW PvPers" can go back to shooting each other and CCP can focus on other stuff. I think you just made my point. No Ewar means they can speed tank and orbit the button. BALANCED EWar means they need to clear the rats to remove the incoming DPS. Ergo, removing Ewar just means Amarr can now do to the Minmitar what they have been doing to us - rolling noob alts to farm LP. The required fix is to KEEP the Ewar and make them kill the NPCs. If they want the LP, they have to fit weapons and hopefully at that point will fight vs running off to farm another plex.
Which, if you read about 5 pages up, is what everyone has already said. NO ONE wants EWAR (unless it's from an actual player). The fix has already been suggested - Remove EWAR from NPCs and make it so all NPCs need to be killed before the plex will cap. This will completely kill the speed tank AND make so that only those people who are "fit to fight" are in plexes in the first place.
Anything else is just a band-aid. |
Kreiga Khamsi
Black Watch Guard
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 08:21:00 -
[90] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Condor Amarr wrote:Har Harrison wrote:Kreiga Khamsi wrote:For those that replied to my post, I am sorry I didn't explain myself very well. I absolutely agree with the removal of EWAR from plexes. Re-reading it I see how I may have accross that I was advocating something different. EWAR should be removed because it is a hindrance to PvP, but that on its own won't create PvP situations either. To me it actually encourages farming. Last night a few of us were flying around for hours looking for fights in plexes but as soon as we warp in, even when outnumbered, the WT would warp to a safe and simply wait for us to leave. When we inquired why they would not fight they openly said because they were there to farm LP, not get involved on fights. That is just as frustrating as having NPC EWAR decide the outcomes of fights. Like I said it is becoming like hunting missioning SB.
I agree with the removal of EWAR, but that is only half the solution. Stopping the LP farming (read frigates speed tanking Majors) has to be high on the priority list as well. Then logically, wouldn't EWAR lead to pvp since the farmers would not be able to farm with the combination of EWar And being required to kill the NPCs. No farmers left would mean only pvp people left??? No. We have EWAR now and we aren't getting PvP. What makes you think that by doing nothing, it will somehow change? EWAR needs to go (and really glad it is, thanks again Hans). From the Amarr/Minmatar side (can't/wont speak for the Cal/Gal side because I don't have enough knowledge on it), the EWAR issue is that the Minmatar EWAR is offensive, meaning it causes additional DPS on Amarr ships (being smashed with missile spam whilst being TP by 4-5 ships really hurts :p). Where are the Amarr EWAR is defensive (TD). The problem with THAT is there is NO requirement for Minmatar to actually do anything offensive. They simply warp in, click orbit and watch local/short range scan (please stop watching short-range scan, you are costing me kills). This has been proven over and over by the kills which show some cowards getting around with no guns but a cloak on their ship. If Amarr tried this, we would be TP and missile spammed to hell. If you wanted EWAR to mean something, then you would need to give the Minnies a requirement to actually shoot at something. There is currently no incentive to do that, so why would they? It's been said several times, they are more than happy (and aren't the only ones, I am sure) to orbit buttons and then just warp out and cloak their Rifter until we leave. I think we have taken 1 step forward. Unfortunately, if CCP go ahead and remove EWAR without actually fixing the problem (IE - Make us shoot all NPCs etc) then we really are just putting a band-aid on the issue. All this will do is cause Amarr to have plexing "bots" who do nothing other than orbit buttons for LP, the same as the Minmatar have now. At the end of the day, the biggest attraction to FW (for me personally and for other I have spoken to) was the constant small-gang/solo PvP, without the BS "alarm-clock Eve" that 0.0 demands. If we can have that, I think you'll find us "lolFW PvPers" can go back to shooting each other and CCP can focus on other stuff. I think you just made my point. No Ewar means they can speed tank and orbit the button. BALANCED EWar means they need to clear the rats to remove the incoming DPS. Ergo, removing Ewar just means Amarr can now do to the Minmitar what they have been doing to us - rolling noob alts to farm LP. The required fix is to KEEP the Ewar and make them kill the NPCs. If they want the LP, they have to fit weapons and hopefully at that point will fight vs running off to farm another plex.
If I understand the guys from Gallante correctly the EWAR can be the deciding factor in their PvP (in that they are jammed by NPC) and I do not agree with this, so I support the removal of EWAR to balance everything. Har you are right that maybe the EWAR wouldn't be the deciding factor in our area, but the Devs have to cater for the other guys as well. I support the removal of EWAR, but at the same time killing all the rats in order to get the LP will stop farming in frigs with no guns.
Hans, basically what Condor said. |
|
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
193
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 09:03:00 -
[91] - Quote
Kreiga - you raise a valid point. But that can be fixed by balancing as opposed to just removing. E.g. Only 1 jamming ship in a spawn vs 2-3 for example. Also, it is not unreasonable to have the NPC ewar such as jamming turn off if a member of the opposing militia warps into the plex. You are never going to get pvp in a plex all the time. I think it is reasonable to expect the NPCs to put up a decent fight and use all weapons at their disposal including their racial ewar... FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Madbuster73
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
35
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 20:46:00 -
[92] - Quote
Cearain wrote:There are allot of good ideas here.
XGallentius is right the npcs should really be a dps sink. Chatgris is right they shouldn't interfere with pvp. And pretty much everyone is agrees speedtanking plexes is a problem. I think the following changes - mostly proposed by others - would work well:
1) must kill all rats
2) the rats will orbit the button and not leave that orbit range and only agro when the timer is running. If the timer stops they stop aggroing. This will do 3 things: A) it will mean if a war target warps in the person running the plex can go outside the timer range and fight without worring about rat damage. B) It will prevent one ship from comming in collecting the aggro orbiting outside range while a small long range destroyer just shoots the rats inside the orbit range C) If it is a newer player having problems with the rats they can shoot the rats outside the orbit button. This of course means it will take longer for them to run the plex. But gives them an option.
3) Have the rats use small weapon systems. Having battleships shoot torpedoes is just asking players to speedtank the plexes in a small ship. Instead of torpedoes the rats should use light missiles/assault and rockets. Battleships will just fit more of them and have more damage mods. They should also use smaller guns that can track. The rats might also get a speed boost. This will mean that a) the overall dps will go down,(allowing more pvp fits to be used in plexes) but also b)the rats will hit smaller ships almost as hard as bigger ships - which means people will use the bigger ships. Perhaps some of the ships will stay in orbits throughout the range instead of chasing us if that will mean it is harder to kite them inide the orbit range.
4) Possibly increase the tank on the npcs. I'm not sure how necessary this is but its something ccp can tweak if necessary.
+1 |
Madbuster73
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
35
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 09:11:00 -
[93] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:The reason Gallente can't speed tank plexes like the squids do is because of the NPC damage type, not anything to do with ECM EWAR. To be sure it will make PVP easier in the plexes than it was before, but the speed tanking issue, at least on this end of the FW arena, is completely unrelated to NPC ewar. Missile spam is what keeps us from soloing the larger plexes in T1 frigs. You can maybe do mediums with good skills and a good Incursus fit, but the majors are more or less closed to you without some ridiculous skills, or a better ship.
This is at the heart of the occupancy warfare imbalance over here. The squids can run all kinds of plexes with a single type of ship. That means they can go into the backwaters and plex to their heart's content, and never have to stop because they don't burn ammo, don't use up cap booster charges, and most of all, they don't have to reship. We don't have this luxury. The result is that the squids can plex at a far higher rate than we can when plexing in an area far behind the lines. This means that pretty much every system is in play for us defensively, whereas that is not as much a problem for the Caldari.
To reiterate, EWAR has nothing to do with the speed tanking issue in the Cal/Gal side of FW. The issue here is the missile spam and how it is far more effective against frigs than the blaster/rail dps from Gallente rats in Gallente plexes.
Also, Hans you can't say you don't want to make people do more PVE when you're already forcing them to orbit timers for extended periods of time. Either we recognize that speed tanking is an issue and do something about it, or we don't and we continue to let one side have an unfair advantage over the other.
+1 Yes, its the missile spam that makes it impossible for the gallente. So give all the NPC races missiles and problem solved. no more 1 day old Caldari alts farming in stabbed t1 frigates.
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2512
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 17:37:00 -
[94] - Quote
Hey guys, I was talking with Shalee Lianne and Drackarn and a few others on twitter today about the NPC issue, discussing the issue of speedtanking and plex farming.
A lot of you have suggested forcing the killing of rats in order to be able to seize the plex. As I've said before, I don't like this idea on the basis of keeping Sovereignty control as a PvP activity, and never *requiring* FW pilots to shoot red crosses in order to fight over a system.
One compromise that was well received all around was the idea of moving the LP reward to a rat bounty, and separating it from Sov control?
This way PvP-ers fighting over a system could still ignore the rats and engage in Factional Warfare without being forced to PvE. Those that wanted to farm plexing for profit couldn't do so in a speed-tanking frig, they'd have to actually *do something* for their isk.
There are variants on this, making the payout for the rats only occur if the timer actually completes, keeping people from just blitzing rats than leaving. But barring technical limitations that make programming this difficult, I think moving the profit-end of plexing to the rat killing solves a lot of issues.
What do you think everyone? Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
279
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 18:26:00 -
[95] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:What do you think everyone?
Good first start and it will remove many afk plexing alt farmers from the area. However speed tanking major plexes in unfit frigs for sovereignty control is just as bad as it is for LP rewards. The Occupancy War will still be fought with afk plexing alts (offensive and defensive) - which is still wrong and still game breaking.
Better short term solution: Just have them kill all the rats. Stops offensive speed tanking ships from screwing up both Occupancy Warfare, and isk payouts.
Then figure out a way to stop the afk defensive plexing alts from being so efficient as well.
|
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
99
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 22:38:00 -
[96] - Quote
I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world. If not having to do PVE is your objection, then you had better start brainstorming a better, more balanced mechanic than we have now. Otherwise we should balance the plexing mechanics we already have so that it's a level playing field and stop trying to make concessions to people who already live in the most active pvp environment there is in EVE. Enough with the spoonfeeding. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 23:40:00 -
[97] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Hey guys, I was talking with Shalee Lianne and Drackarn and a few others on twitter today about the NPC issue, discussing the issue of speedtanking and plex farming.
A lot of you have suggested forcing the killing of rats in order to be able to seize the plex. As I've said before, I don't like this idea on the basis of keeping Sovereignty control as a PvP activity, and never *requiring* FW pilots to shoot red crosses in order to fight over a system.
One compromise that was well received all around was the idea of moving the LP reward to a rat bounty, and separating it from Sov control?
This way PvP-ers fighting over a system could still ignore the rats and engage in Factional Warfare without being forced to PvE. Those that wanted to farm plexing for profit couldn't do so in a speed-tanking frig, they'd have to actually *do something* for their isk.
There are variants on this, making the payout for the rats only occur if the timer actually completes, keeping people from just blitzing rats than leaving. But barring technical limitations that make programming this difficult, I think moving the profit-end of plexing to the rat killing solves a lot of issues.
What do you think everyone?
Hans thanks for posting this and continuing to engage the community.
But I don't understand what you mean by "lp reward to a rat bounty and seperating it from sov control." Do you mean that we would shoot rats for lp but the sov control would be determined solely by the timer and not yield any lp? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 23:42:00 -
[98] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world...
Shooting rats is clearly pve because you are fighting a computer ai. Orbitting a button is pvp if we assume that enemy players will come to fight for that plex within that time. Admittedly that assumption is often wrong.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
195
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 01:52:00 -
[99] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world... Shooting rats is clearly pve because you are fighting a computer ai. Orbitting a button is pvp if we assume that enemy players will come to fight for that plex within that time. Admittedly that assumption is often wrong. Ergo, there are NO pvp mechanics for sov capture in FW as we don't have to DO something like online ihubs and drop SBUs and shoot structures like they do in null sov.
Orbitting a button IS a PvE activity. Attempting to stop someone doing that is a PvP activity. The person trying to PvE who responds to the person trying to PvP them is also PvPing... FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Gevlin
Universal Might DSM FOUNDATION
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 01:58:00 -
[100] - Quote
Unless there is a mechanic that is "Instant action" option and the Player is Hot dropped any block that is being taken over NPC will have to be a barrier to entry.
When I talk about NPC i mean ones that have brains. Ones that are tough.
I would like to see some resistance than now resistance when I come to fight a challenge.
Though it would be interesting to see an NPC light a cyno and a bunch of players come rushing threw. The Goons are Coming, The Goons are Coming Jita the April 28, Hulk a geddon April 29 for a month. The Best Tears are the Geifer's Tears. just hope the new crime watch system is in place by then.... oh the chaos will rain!!! |
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Cheekything
Dark-Rising
101
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 03:06:00 -
[101] - Quote
On the matter of Ewar and NPCs, I've never been a fan it doesn't seem to do anything but annoy players and I'd be happy for it to be removed.
However with NPCs as a whole I'd love it if CCP create a new set of NPCs just for factions and Factional warfare with the following:
- Give them sleeper like AI so they can choose targets more effectively. - The only EWAR should be webs and maybe a 0 point scrambler to kill MWDs - Tougher and stronger in the HP and DPS area. - AI that will assist a player from their faction that is being aggressed by someone (like gate guns and concord do) and that will instantly target people will low standings and low security ratings (the second is exempt if in the factional warfare). - Slight UI change that will make the Icons white when they are with you and red when they are against you, (give them the colour of your +10 standings and -10 standings even). - Allow the ships to not give away their specs by the name just call them Gallente Frigate etc.
And on the warfare system we need more pvp that is preferably based around some NPCing but also ones that players can get involved with.
This might be a great time to do some work with Dust's planet stuff or just have it so you have to bombard a planet and protect the people who are doing it, while they are doing it once they finish then you win points towards that system and some juicier LPS. (might be a great idea to get a small amount of capitals involved in FW). |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
281
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 14:20:00 -
[102] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world... Shooting rats is clearly pve because you are fighting a computer ai. Orbitting a button is pvp if we assume that enemy players will come to fight for that plex within that time. Admittedly that assumption is often wrong. Shotting rats (that already exist in plexes) is no worse than orbiting a button.
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Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
195
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 07:04:00 -
[103] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world... Shooting rats is clearly pve because you are fighting a computer ai. Orbitting a button is pvp if we assume that enemy players will come to fight for that plex within that time. Admittedly that assumption is often wrong. Shotting rats (that already exist in plexes) is no worse than orbiting a button. I'd argue it COULD be considered as better - at least it gives you something to do... FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Atfal alNudjum
Black Watch Guard
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 08:19:00 -
[104] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:What do you think everyone? Good first start and it will remove many afk plexing alt farmers from the area. However speed tanking major plexes in unfit frigs for sovereignty control is just as bad as it is for LP rewards. The Occupancy War will still be fought with afk plexing alts (offensive and defensive) - which is still wrong and still game breaking. Better short term solution: Just have them kill all the rats. Stops offensive speed tanking ships from screwing up both Occupancy Warfare, and isk payouts. Then figure out a way to stop the afk defensive plexing alts from being so efficient as well. Edit: What you are saying, What I am saying 1. Farming - You: Kill NPCs, Me: Kill NPCs 2. Occupancy Warfare - You: Speed tanking is cool, Me: Kill NPCs 3. PvP - You: Don't have to shoot red squares, Me: Don't have to shoot red squares. You kill rats to win occupancy, not to PvP. Nobody said you had to stay and finish the plex after a fight. Nobody said you had to run the timer before one.
Hans, killing the NPCs is the best option for the plexing side of things. At this point the system is so broken that people are boasting about making billions a day from LP rewards.....something needs fixing sooner and not later. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2533
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 09:36:00 -
[105] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Hans thanks for posting this and continuing to engage the community.
But I don't understand what you mean by "lp reward to a rat bounty and seperating it from sov control." Do you mean that we would shoot rats for lp but the sov control would be determined solely by the timer and not yield any lp?
Yeah, that's what I meant. It's just one idea though.
I don't want everyone getting the wrong impression here, I hate speed tanking of all kinds in all situations. The ideal goal to shoot for is forcing pilots into bigger ships for bigger plexes and missions, even if each can still be soloed. I don't mind pilots making absurd rewards doing FW stuff as long as they're taking absurd risks and putting isk on the line that can be *caught* if you're not careful. That's what's broken to me everywhere atm, the problem isn't that you make good money, its that its so safe to do.
This will ultimately require an overhaul of all the NPC AI, making them smarter and tougher, fewer numbers but still killable in PvP fits. Ytterbium may or may not be able to can clarify on the timeline, but I imagine something of this magnitude will be a feature of the winter expansion.
CCP may not be willing to do a lot more tweaks in the meantime, to shine a turd they're about to flush down the toilet, so to speak. We'll have to see and like I said that's something only Ytterbium can clarify for you.
I say all that just so everyone has appropriate expectations going forward while we discuss NPC's, and focuses on the right kind of feedback at this stage in the game. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
195
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 02:53:00 -
[106] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: Hans thanks for posting this and continuing to engage the community.
But I don't understand what you mean by "lp reward to a rat bounty and seperating it from sov control." Do you mean that we would shoot rats for lp but the sov control would be determined solely by the timer and not yield any lp?
Yeah, that's what I meant. It's just one idea though. I don't want everyone getting the wrong impression here, I hate speed tanking of all kinds in all situations. The ideal goal to shoot for is forcing pilots into bigger ships for bigger plexes and missions, even if each can still be soloed. I don't mind pilots making absurd rewards doing FW stuff as long as they're taking absurd risks and putting isk on the line that can be *caught* if you're not careful. That's what's broken to me everywhere atm, the problem isn't that you make good money, its that its so safe to do. This will ultimately require an overhaul of all the NPC AI, making them smarter and tougher, fewer numbers but still killable in PvP fits. Ytterbium may or may not be able to can clarify on the timeline, but I imagine something of this magnitude will be a feature of the winter expansion. CCP may not be willing to do a lot more tweaks in the meantime, to shine a turd they're about to flush down the toilet, so to speak. We'll have to see and like I said that's something only Ytterbium can clarify for you. I say all that just so everyone has appropriate expectations going forward while we discuss NPC's, and focuses on the right kind of feedback at this stage in the game. Hans, if they DON'T do something soon, you might see a total collapse of the Amarr Militia. There is no way we can compete when the minmitar can make the LP they are, cash in it and then return in SFIs which is the best faction cruiser going around pretty much... It costs them nothing to fly one. We have to spend a fortune to get the equivalent ship from our store and SFIs are still expensive for us when we have no isk. Even if you remove the ISK side of things and go with the approach that Fweddit has of many numbers in cheap ships, it still doesn't remove the fact your side can capture a plex with 1 guy while we need a fleet. It might be turd polishing, but it MUST be done in Inferno 1.1 or soon after as the winter expansion is too long to fix something we all knew was an issue BEFORE Inferno Don't give us a rolls royce in 3-4 months time. Give us a fix now (must kill NPCs) and THEN go away and work out a better long term fix... If they can do it for the UI, they can do it for this!!! FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 04:15:00 -
[107] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world... Shooting rats is clearly pve because you are fighting a computer ai. Orbitting a button is pvp if we assume that enemy players will come to fight for that plex within that time. Admittedly that assumption is often wrong. Shotting rats (that already exist in plexes) is no worse than orbiting a button.
If they force people to fly pve ships or otherwise force people to have to warp off instead of staying for pvp(which they often do) they are worse than orbiting a button. IMO. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 04:52:00 -
[108] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: Hans thanks for posting this and continuing to engage the community.
But I don't understand what you mean by "lp reward to a rat bounty and seperating it from sov control." Do you mean that we would shoot rats for lp but the sov control would be determined solely by the timer and not yield any lp?
Yeah, that's what I meant. It's just one idea though. I don't want everyone getting the wrong impression here, I hate speed tanking of all kinds in all situations. The ideal goal to shoot for is forcing pilots into bigger ships for bigger plexes and missions, even if each can still be soloed. I don't mind pilots making absurd rewards doing FW stuff as long as they're taking absurd risks and putting isk on the line that can be *caught* if you're not careful. That's what's broken to me everywhere atm, the problem isn't that you make good money, its that its so safe to do. This will ultimately require an overhaul of all the NPC AI, making them smarter and tougher, fewer numbers but still killable in PvP fits. Ytterbium may or may not be able to can clarify on the timeline, but I imagine something of this magnitude will be a feature of the winter expansion. CCP may not be willing to do a lot more tweaks in the meantime, to shine a turd they're about to flush down the toilet, so to speak. We'll have to see and like I said that's something only Ytterbium can clarify for you. I say all that just so everyone has appropriate expectations going forward while we discuss NPC's, and focuses on the right kind of feedback at this stage in the game. Hans, if they DON'T do something soon, you might see a total collapse of the Amarr Militia. There is no way we can compete when the minmitar can make the LP they are, cash in it and then return in SFIs which is the best faction cruiser going around pretty much... It costs them nothing to fly one. We have to spend a fortune to get the equivalent ship from our store and SFIs are still expensive for us when we have no isk. Even if you remove the ISK side of things and go with the approach that Fweddit has of many numbers in cheap ships, it still doesn't remove the fact your side can capture a plex with 1 guy while we need a fleet. It might be turd polishing, but it MUST be done in Inferno 1.1 or soon after as the winter expansion is too long to fix something we all knew was an issue BEFORE Inferno Don't give us a rolls royce in 3-4 months time. Give us a fix now (must kill NPCs) and THEN go away and work out a better long term fix... If they can do it for the UI, they can do it for this!!!
I'm not so sure this is going to change very much really. Since amarr has so many more offensive plexes to run it may actually hurt amarr - I am thinking we will be able to speed tank allot of plexes after the "no ewar" change.
Until Amarr really starts to spread out and make the war painful for minmatar by forcing them to defensive plex in back systems for no lp gain we are not going to turn this around very fast. Unless fweddit brings in huge numbers from null sec or something.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
195
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 08:45:00 -
[109] - Quote
So CCP has asked for feedback. When are we going to hear feeback from them that they are going to make FW balanced so some militias aren't favoured over another? Removing ewar is NOT enough...
Apart from the existing fixes, suggest CCP ALSO put the 0.5 standing requirements back in. Stop the disposable alts being put into the minmitar militia to farm. (BTW - we predicted THIS would be an issue before Inferno was released as well). FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D Defiant Legacy
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 15:17:00 -
[110] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: A lot of you have suggested forcing the killing of rats in order to be able to seize the plex. As I've said before, I don't like this idea on the basis of keeping Sovereignty control as a PvP activity, and never *requiring* FW pilots to shoot red crosses in order to fight over a system.
I might have missed it, but why?
Requiring all plex NPCs to be killed makes sense from a RP point of view - they are defending after all. They aren't exactly difficult to kill given a reasonable amount and type of ships which varies by plex size. It gives the attackers something to do while capping the plex and waiting for PVP. Most importantly, it stops speed tanking alts.
That should be relatively easy to implement.
I used to think that the NPCs should be 'better' and more sleeper like. However, I now think that would tip the balance to much towards PVE instead of PVP. Ideally other players should be the defenders. NPCs are only really there to provide some defence when there are no player defenders. It's that defence which speed tanking nullifies. You might as well just have the button with no NPCs at all.
Everything else pretty much works as it is.
So, require the NPCs to be killed and see what might need adjusting after that. |
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
285
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 15:32:00 -
[111] - Quote
Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Shotting rats (that already exist in plexes) is no worse than orbiting a button.
If they force people to fly pve ships or otherwise force people to have to warp off instead of staying for pvp(which they often do) they are worse than orbiting a button. IMO. This is a short term solution, and the rats are already there, so there is no "incremental cost" to pvp at the expense of pve. In fact, if you made it a point to shoot the rats, then you would get a more pure pvp encounter when it actually happens.
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2539
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 15:52:00 -
[112] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Hans, if they DON'T do something soon, you might see a total collapse of the Amarr Militia. There is no way we can compete when the minmitar can make the LP they are, cash in it and then return in SFIs which is the best faction cruiser going around pretty much... It costs them nothing to fly one. We have to spend a fortune to get the equivalent ship from our store and SFIs are still expensive for us when we have no isk. Even if you remove the ISK side of things and go with the approach that Fweddit has of many numbers in cheap ships, it still doesn't remove the fact your side can capture a plex with 1 guy while we need a fleet. It might be turd polishing, but it MUST be done in Inferno 1.1 or soon after as the winter expansion is too long to fix something we all knew was an issue BEFORE Inferno Don't give us a rolls royce in 3-4 months time. Give us a fix now (must kill NPCs) and THEN go away and work out a better long term fix... If they can do it for the UI, they can do it for this!!!
The problems with the UI affected everyone in the entire game without question, Faction Warfare is only small subset of players, and besides no one's been able to successfully convince CCP yet that there is a "crisis" here where one faction is stuck purely based on the mechanics alone. So I think the sense of urgency you'd like them to have on this issue probably isn't the same sense of urgency they're going to have.
I've already spoke with them about this though, and discussed the exact solutions proposed in this thread by you all. I'm just not sure they're going to devote the time to it or not. Like I said, that's something only Ytterbium can clarify or give reasons as to why that's not possible.
Regarding the sleeper AI - whatever they end up using, the design goal is to tailor fit them to be fought against using PvP fits. The NPC's may not be copycats of incursion rats or sleeper rates, CCP has the capability at least to custom make new NPC's and adjust their strengths and firepower to fit. If it were me coding them, I'd make them fewer in number, smart enough that they mitigate speed tanking and force a ship-up for each plex size but are still straightforward enough to kill that they don't serve as a persistent deterrent to PvP. They shouldn't force pilots into *tank-the-room* PvE fits that focus on DPS-soaking, but they should have enough webbing frigates and such that you put yourself at much higher risk going into a larger plex in a small ship. All that to say, I've heard enough of their intentions here to not worry too much about this pushing FW back into PvE-land. We already have incursions, there is no need to duplicate that here, Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:58:00 -
[113] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Har Harrison wrote:Hans, if they DON'T do something soon, you might see a total collapse of the Amarr Militia. There is no way we can compete when the minmitar can make the LP they are, cash in it and then return in SFIs which is the best faction cruiser going around pretty much... It costs them nothing to fly one. We have to spend a fortune to get the equivalent ship from our store and SFIs are still expensive for us when we have no isk. Even if you remove the ISK side of things and go with the approach that Fweddit has of many numbers in cheap ships, it still doesn't remove the fact your side can capture a plex with 1 guy while we need a fleet. It might be turd polishing, but it MUST be done in Inferno 1.1 or soon after as the winter expansion is too long to fix something we all knew was an issue BEFORE Inferno Don't give us a rolls royce in 3-4 months time. Give us a fix now (must kill NPCs) and THEN go away and work out a better long term fix... If they can do it for the UI, they can do it for this!!! The problems with the UI affected everyone in the entire game without question, Faction Warfare is only small subset of players, and besides no one's been able to successfully convince CCP yet that there is a "crisis" here where one faction is stuck purely based on the mechanics alone. So I think the sense of urgency you'd like them to have on this issue probably isn't the same sense of urgency they're going to have.
Hans thanks for the feedback. It seems there is still some resistance from ccp in seeing the value in really making faction war work.
I also saw a dev in another thread talkiing about how they could be working on ship balancing instead of faction war. Again because that "effects everyone"
Just because boosting the condor will "effect everyone" doesn't mean it is as important as faction war. The effect that this has is pretty miniscule. And its not just because its a frigate. This whole ship balancing is just changing the fotm. And frankly its getting to the point where you can't do any sort of long term planning in eve. Crucible was much needed and a great addition. But if future expansions are just going to involve tweaking numbers on ships every month "to mix it up" then I am concerned for the game.
Faction war is the real crux of what people do in the game. And if they actually got it right it would be a major draw like null sec is. Its not just another ship people can fly depending on what is buffed or nerfed. I really can't see how anyone could think "ship balance" is as important as getting a core gameplay feature working.
Frankly I will still play eve even if the drake is not nerfed or the incursus wasn't buffed. But if they botch faction war I am not likley to stay subbed at all. I can't imagine many people were going to unsub if the incursus didn't get a buff.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2541
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:48:00 -
[114] - Quote
Ok, let's not drift too far backwards into the "CCP doesn't care about FW" zone....
I wasn't trying to say that the feature isn't important to CCP, just that something as front-and-center as the user interface is naturally going to need the most immediate attention if it's malfunctioning.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
195
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 02:36:00 -
[115] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Har Harrison wrote:Hans, if they DON'T do something soon, you might see a total collapse of the Amarr Militia. There is no way we can compete when the minmitar can make the LP they are, cash in it and then return in SFIs which is the best faction cruiser going around pretty much... It costs them nothing to fly one. We have to spend a fortune to get the equivalent ship from our store and SFIs are still expensive for us when we have no isk. Even if you remove the ISK side of things and go with the approach that Fweddit has of many numbers in cheap ships, it still doesn't remove the fact your side can capture a plex with 1 guy while we need a fleet. It might be turd polishing, but it MUST be done in Inferno 1.1 or soon after as the winter expansion is too long to fix something we all knew was an issue BEFORE Inferno Don't give us a rolls royce in 3-4 months time. Give us a fix now (must kill NPCs) and THEN go away and work out a better long term fix... If they can do it for the UI, they can do it for this!!! The problems with the UI affected everyone in the entire game without question, Faction Warfare is only small subset of players, and besides no one's been able to successfully convince CCP yet that there is a "crisis" here where one faction is stuck purely based on the mechanics alone. So I think the sense of urgency you'd like them to have on this issue probably isn't the same sense of urgency they're going to have. I've already spoke with them about this though, and discussed the exact solutions proposed in this thread by you all. I'm just not sure they're going to devote the time to it or not. Like I said, that's something only Ytterbium can clarify or give reasons as to why that's not possible. Regarding the sleeper AI - whatever they end up using, the design goal is to tailor fit them to be fought against using PvP fits. The NPC's may not be copycats of incursion rats or sleeper rates, CCP has the capability at least to custom make new NPC's and adjust their strengths and firepower to fit. If it were me coding them, I'd make them fewer in number, smart enough that they mitigate speed tanking and force a ship-up for each plex size but are still straightforward enough to kill that they don't serve as a persistent deterrent to PvP. They shouldn't force pilots into *tank-the-room* PvE fits that focus on DPS-soaking, but they should have enough webbing frigates and such that you put yourself at much higher risk going into a larger plex in a small ship. All that to say, I've heard enough of their intentions here to not worry too much about this pushing FW back into PvE-land. We already have incursions, there is no need to duplicate that here, I'm inclined to call crap on CCP not wanting to do it Hans (this is against CCP, not you since I don't want to shoot the messenger and appreciate the work you are doing here).
If all 4 races can speed tank a major in a 1 week old char in a frig, then it is balanced. Amarr cannot do this. Therefore it is unbalanced and IS an issue. We can't have a person sat in every plex in every system to run a timer down since the farmers are bouncing around trying to get LP, not partake in FW as it gives us no reward. This goes against the very fundamentals of what FW is supposed to be about - small to medium scale PvP in the name of the empire you serve. NOT INSANE ISK/LP FARMING.
CCP MUST have logic that can detect if the rats are on grid or the ability to do this via the existing trigger mechanism. They do it for Incursions, l4s etc... Secondly, a check must be made every tick to see if the clock goes up or down depending on who is on the button and if there are opposing militias there. When the counter reaches zero, the plex completes. How hard is it to add an extra check to see if the counter is 0 AND all ships are destroyed? (they need to make sure all spawns have appeared as well).
And when are we going to see the fixes to the plex bugs we have been reporting over and over? Borked timers that won't count down. Plexes that won't depawn and therefore mean one side cannot effectively plex. Plexes that say captured, but don't post the message in local and so the achievement has not actually occured.
Alot of people aren't that interested in the ship balancing right now - they just want this part of the game to be fixed so they can enjoy it whilst CCP goes and works on the larger stuff like changing NPC AI, ship balancing (which effects the WHOLE game) etc...
I will repeat what I have posted before about the timer bug.
I had a conversation with a dev at fan fest and his response to players purposely bugging the timers was "We didn't expect them to do this". They know something is not working as they intended, so they should go and fix it. They are doing it for the UI, are doing it for the wardecs, so why does FW miss out? Because the issue is so much older, so the FW have learned to put up with it??? FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
470
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 04:25:00 -
[116] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Shotting rats (that already exist in plexes) is no worse than orbiting a button.
If they force people to fly pve ships or otherwise force people to have to warp off instead of staying for pvp(which they often do) they are worse than orbiting a button. IMO. This is a short term solution, and the rats are already there, so there is no "incremental cost" to pvp at the expense of pve. In fact, if you made it a point to shoot the rats, then you would get a more pure pvp encounter when it actually happens.
This is true an it is why I am in favor of the must kill all rats requirement - if we are going to have rats. But I was just pointing out that orbiting a button is not as bad as having rats because it does not force you to fit a pve ship. Nor does it cut through your tank so that if anything with a point comes you need to warp out or die just from being held. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D Defiant Legacy
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 12:09:00 -
[117] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: They shouldn't force pilots into *tank-the-room* PvE fits that focus on DPS-soaking, but they should have enough webbing frigates and such that you put yourself at much higher risk going into a larger plex in a small ship.
It shouldn't be the case that individual players are be able to solo plexes (at least bigger than a minor). Less "but I'll need a bigger ship", more "I need a couple of friends".
I really do believe that requiring the npc's to be killed will stop 1 day alt speed tanking for everyone (which is good) and still allow all players to use PVP fits (also good).
For example, I *can* solo a minor in a griffin. That is, killing the npc's. It works, but it takes a while. It's much easier and quicker if I have a couple of friends to help kill the rats. There is no reason at all for all involved not to have PVP fits, ready for any defenders which may drop by,
What is the argument against it? |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
470
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 16:22:00 -
[118] - Quote
CCP when are you getting rid of the missiles from the Caldari plex rats?
They are way too effective in comparison to the other weapon types.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
470
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 16:53:00 -
[119] - Quote
Mekhana wrote:CCP when are you getting rid of the missiles from the Caldari plex rats?
They are way too effective in comparison to the other weapon types.
Perhaps someday they will get rid of the minmatar missiles as well. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
196
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 23:46:00 -
[120] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Mekhana wrote:CCP when are you getting rid of the missiles from the Caldari plex rats?
They are way too effective in comparison to the other weapon types.
Perhaps someday they will get rid of the minmatar missiles as well. And this is the reason WHY I have been saying that removing ewar alone may not solve the speed tanking issue. Some races have to deal with turrets AND missiles, others just have to deal with turrets. FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
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Madbuster73
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 15:43:00 -
[121] - Quote
How hard is it to make the game check if you killed all npc's in the plex when timer is at 0?? I can not Imagine that it is a lot of work. This simple line of programming will keep people satisfied until Winter-Expansion. Just make it so you HAVE to kill all NPC in the plexes and all speedtanking is over.
If CCP cant do it I am happy to fly over to Iceland and do it myself over the weekend. STOP GIVING LAME EXCUSES AND FIX IT PLEASE!
At this moment Caldari are taking all systems and by the time the winter expansion comes out, Caldari will own all systems and all Gallente Militia will have quit game or left FW because there is no fighting against it.
Cheers. |
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Minmatar's Shadow
91
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 16:24:00 -
[122] - Quote
Please DON'T make plexing about PvE:
- Please DON'T buff the NPC AI.
- Please DON'T force us to kill the NPCs.
Please DO make plexing about PvP:
- Please DO remove ALL NPC E-war.
- Please DO decrease the amount of NPCs.
- Please DO decrease the defencive plexing time (E.G. four times as fast).
- Please DO despawn plexes when successfully defencive plexed.
- Please DO give a reward for defencive plexing. Either LP or standing!
Please DO this BECAUSE:
- It would encourage war targets to defencive plex (only five minutes for a major + reward).
- It would force people to fight for their plex if they don't want it to despawn.
- It would discourage farming.
- It would encourage (but not force) people to do plexes designed for their ship class to avoid a war target in a much bigger ship despawning their plex.
- It would encourage (but not force) people to kill the NPCs to remove the PvE disadvantage.
TL;DR: I want faction warfare to be about PvP, not PvE! |
Madbuster73
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 15:07:00 -
[123] - Quote
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:Please DON'T make plexing about PvE:
- Please DON'T buff the NPC AI.
- Please DON'T force us to kill the NPCs.
Please DO make plexing about PvP:
- Please DO remove ALL NPC E-war.
- Please DO decrease the amount of NPCs.
- Please DO decrease the defencive plexing time (E.G. four times as fast).
- Please DO despawn plexes when successfully defencive plexed.
- Please DO give a reward for defencive plexing. Either LP or standing!
Please DO this BECAUSE:
- It would encourage war targets to defencive plex (only five minutes for a major + reward).
- It would force people to fight for their plex if they don't want it to despawn.
- It would discourage farming.
- It would encourage (but not force) people to do plexes designed for their ship class to avoid a war target in a much bigger ship despawning their plex.
- It would encourage (but not force) people to kill the NPCs to remove the PvE disadvantage.
TL;DR: I want faction warfare to be about PvP, not PvE!
Are you nuts?? what you are saying WILL bring even MORE farmers to FW. LOL You obviously have no clue... Oh wait, you are a farmer yourself probably.
Also Caldari have now stopped shooting ihubs because they found out you can still farm it when vulnerable. So what they do is they keep farming a system for days before they shoot the ihub. Isnt it possible to change that once a System is vulnerable to not give any LP anymore for running more plexes?? Its a bit ridicilous that they still get LP when a system is already vulnerable. (it encourages farming even more) |
Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D Defiant Legacy
39
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 16:54:00 -
[124] - Quote
Shooting the NPC's really shouldn't take much effort even now. I mean, given a reasonable amount and type of PVP fitted ships for the plex size, it's not exactly difficult to kill them.
Solo killing all major plex NPC's in a thrasher is, and should be, quite difficult and/or time consuming.
The whole point of NPC's existing is to prevent speed tanking farmers. And right now they aren't doing it. |
Ares Lee
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:58:00 -
[125] - Quote
I think CCP should fix the npc's tracking disruptors via the next patch if they want to fix the EWAR issue. NPC does not lower players' falloff range while CCP buffed the tracking enhancer and tracking computer to additionally increase ridiculous % of falloff range. Then, Minmatar became the biggest winner after CCP increased the difficulty by increasing the NPC's EWAR ability. I don't know whether it is intended or simply a overlooked bug. |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
209
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:05:00 -
[126] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Har Harrison wrote:Hans, if they DON'T do something soon, you might see a total collapse of the Amarr Militia. There is no way we can compete when the minmitar can make the LP they are, cash in it and then return in SFIs which is the best faction cruiser going around pretty much... It costs them nothing to fly one. We have to spend a fortune to get the equivalent ship from our store and SFIs are still expensive for us when we have no isk. Even if you remove the ISK side of things and go with the approach that Fweddit has of many numbers in cheap ships, it still doesn't remove the fact your side can capture a plex with 1 guy while we need a fleet. It might be turd polishing, but it MUST be done in Inferno 1.1 or soon after as the winter expansion is too long to fix something we all knew was an issue BEFORE Inferno Don't give us a rolls royce in 3-4 months time. Give us a fix now (must kill NPCs) and THEN go away and work out a better long term fix... If they can do it for the UI, they can do it for this!!! The problems with the UI affected everyone in the entire game without question, Faction Warfare is only small subset of players, and besides no one's been able to successfully convince CCP yet that there is a "crisis" here where one faction is stuck purely based on the mechanics alone. So I think the sense of urgency you'd like them to have on this issue probably isn't the same sense of urgency they're going to have. I've already spoke with them about this though, and discussed the exact solutions proposed in this thread by you all. I'm just not sure they're going to devote the time to it or not. Like I said, that's something only Ytterbium can clarify or give reasons as to why that's not possible. Regarding the sleeper AI - whatever they end up using, the design goal is to tailor fit them to be fought against using PvP fits. The NPC's may not be copycats of incursion rats or sleeper rates, CCP has the capability at least to custom make new NPC's and adjust their strengths and firepower to fit. If it were me coding them, I'd make them fewer in number, smart enough that they mitigate speed tanking and force a ship-up for each plex size but are still straightforward enough to kill that they don't serve as a persistent deterrent to PvP. They shouldn't force pilots into *tank-the-room* PvE fits that focus on DPS-soaking, but they should have enough webbing frigates and such that you put yourself at much higher risk going into a larger plex in a small ship. All that to say, I've heard enough of their intentions here to not worry too much about this pushing FW back into PvE-land. We already have incursions, there is no need to duplicate that here, Is CCP convinced NOW Hans??? They rushed out a fix for the goon manufacturing LP to convert into ISK and your militia has been carried along with a free hand up. You are already down to 50% and tier 3, so you haven't been "winning", you have been propped up. How many ships and how much ISK has your militia accrued as a by product of this design flaw/bug on top of the LP they get from farming plexes due to the unbalanced NPCs in the plexes???
BTW - I AM mad. I supported Hans for CSM and I WANT TO SEE SOME REPRESENTATION FOR ALL MILITIAS HERE!!!! Why won't CCP fix the ongoing FW issues? NPC balance, timer bugs etc??? |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:09:00 -
[127] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Har Harrison wrote:Hans, if they DON'T do something soon, you might see a total collapse of the Amarr Militia. There is no way we can compete when the minmitar can make the LP they are, cash in it and then return in SFIs which is the best faction cruiser going around pretty much... It costs them nothing to fly one. We have to spend a fortune to get the equivalent ship from our store and SFIs are still expensive for us when we have no isk. Even if you remove the ISK side of things and go with the approach that Fweddit has of many numbers in cheap ships, it still doesn't remove the fact your side can capture a plex with 1 guy while we need a fleet. It might be turd polishing, but it MUST be done in Inferno 1.1 or soon after as the winter expansion is too long to fix something we all knew was an issue BEFORE Inferno Don't give us a rolls royce in 3-4 months time. Give us a fix now (must kill NPCs) and THEN go away and work out a better long term fix... If they can do it for the UI, they can do it for this!!! The problems with the UI affected everyone in the entire game without question, Faction Warfare is only small subset of players, and besides no one's been able to successfully convince CCP yet that there is a "crisis" here where one faction is stuck purely based on the mechanics alone. So I think the sense of urgency you'd like them to have on this issue probably isn't the same sense of urgency they're going to have. I've already spoke with them about this though, and discussed the exact solutions proposed in this thread by you all. I'm just not sure they're going to devote the time to it or not. Like I said, that's something only Ytterbium can clarify or give reasons as to why that's not possible. Regarding the sleeper AI - whatever they end up using, the design goal is to tailor fit them to be fought against using PvP fits. The NPC's may not be copycats of incursion rats or sleeper rates, CCP has the capability at least to custom make new NPC's and adjust their strengths and firepower to fit. If it were me coding them, I'd make them fewer in number, smart enough that they mitigate speed tanking and force a ship-up for each plex size but are still straightforward enough to kill that they don't serve as a persistent deterrent to PvP. They shouldn't force pilots into *tank-the-room* PvE fits that focus on DPS-soaking, but they should have enough webbing frigates and such that you put yourself at much higher risk going into a larger plex in a small ship. All that to say, I've heard enough of their intentions here to not worry too much about this pushing FW back into PvE-land. We already have incursions, there is no need to duplicate that here, Is CCP convinced NOW Hans??? They rushed out a fix for the goon manufacturing LP to convert into ISK and your militia has been carried along with a free hand up. You are already down to 50% and tier 3, so you haven't been "winning", you have been propped up. How many ships and how much ISK has your militia accrued as a by product of this design flaw/bug on top of the LP they get from farming plexes due to the unbalanced NPCs in the plexes??? BTW - I AM mad. I supported Hans for CSM and I WANT TO SEE SOME REPRESENTATION FOR ALL MILITIAS HERE!!!!
We shouldn't blame hans for the design flaw.
However I would be very interested in knowing how much isk in items has come out of the minmatar faction war store from may 22nd to june 22nd? How much isk in items has gone out of the 24th crusade lp store from may 22nd until june 22nd?
I don't want to know this to necessarilly make any sort of argument about change (at least I can't think of one yet) I just want to know for lulz.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
209
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:12:00 -
[128] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Har Harrison wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Har Harrison wrote:Hans, if they DON'T do something soon, you might see a total collapse of the Amarr Militia. There is no way we can compete when the minmitar can make the LP they are, cash in it and then return in SFIs which is the best faction cruiser going around pretty much... It costs them nothing to fly one. We have to spend a fortune to get the equivalent ship from our store and SFIs are still expensive for us when we have no isk. Even if you remove the ISK side of things and go with the approach that Fweddit has of many numbers in cheap ships, it still doesn't remove the fact your side can capture a plex with 1 guy while we need a fleet. It might be turd polishing, but it MUST be done in Inferno 1.1 or soon after as the winter expansion is too long to fix something we all knew was an issue BEFORE Inferno Don't give us a rolls royce in 3-4 months time. Give us a fix now (must kill NPCs) and THEN go away and work out a better long term fix... If they can do it for the UI, they can do it for this!!! The problems with the UI affected everyone in the entire game without question, Faction Warfare is only small subset of players, and besides no one's been able to successfully convince CCP yet that there is a "crisis" here where one faction is stuck purely based on the mechanics alone. So I think the sense of urgency you'd like them to have on this issue probably isn't the same sense of urgency they're going to have. I've already spoke with them about this though, and discussed the exact solutions proposed in this thread by you all. I'm just not sure they're going to devote the time to it or not. Like I said, that's something only Ytterbium can clarify or give reasons as to why that's not possible. Regarding the sleeper AI - whatever they end up using, the design goal is to tailor fit them to be fought against using PvP fits. The NPC's may not be copycats of incursion rats or sleeper rates, CCP has the capability at least to custom make new NPC's and adjust their strengths and firepower to fit. If it were me coding them, I'd make them fewer in number, smart enough that they mitigate speed tanking and force a ship-up for each plex size but are still straightforward enough to kill that they don't serve as a persistent deterrent to PvP. They shouldn't force pilots into *tank-the-room* PvE fits that focus on DPS-soaking, but they should have enough webbing frigates and such that you put yourself at much higher risk going into a larger plex in a small ship. All that to say, I've heard enough of their intentions here to not worry too much about this pushing FW back into PvE-land. We already have incursions, there is no need to duplicate that here, Is CCP convinced NOW Hans??? They rushed out a fix for the goon manufacturing LP to convert into ISK and your militia has been carried along with a free hand up. You are already down to 50% and tier 3, so you haven't been "winning", you have been propped up. How many ships and how much ISK has your militia accrued as a by product of this design flaw/bug on top of the LP they get from farming plexes due to the unbalanced NPCs in the plexes??? BTW - I AM mad. I supported Hans for CSM and I WANT TO SEE SOME REPRESENTATION FOR ALL MILITIAS HERE!!!! We shouldn't blame hans for the design flaw. However I would be very interested in knowing how much isk in items has come out of the minmatar faction war store from may 22nd to june 22nd? How much isk in items has gone out of the 24th crusade lp store from may 22nd until june 22nd? I don't want to know this to necessarilly make any sort of argument about change (at least I can't think of one yet) I just want to know for lulz. I am not blaming him for the design flaw.
My issue is that he still isn't saying "There is absolutely an issue here and CCP needs to fix it". Instead we are getting comments about how Amarr need to step up etc... It is just insulting. We highlighted issues before the patch and now we want the CSM member who has the FW background to raise hell on our behalf!!! Why won't CCP fix the ongoing FW issues? NPC balance, timer bugs etc??? |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:43:00 -
[129] - Quote
Yes I agree. Everytime I see the title to this thread "rebalancing" NPCS, I wonder what he means by "rebalancing." They were never balanced to begin with.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Minmatar's Shadow
91
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:58:00 -
[130] - Quote
Madbuster73 wrote:Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:stuff Are you nuts?? what you are saying WILL bring even MORE farmers to FW. LOL You obviously have no clue... Oh wait, you are a farmer yourself probably. Also Caldari have now stopped shooting ihubs because they found out you can still farm it when vulnerable. So what they do is they keep farming a system for days before they shoot the ihub. Isnt it possible to change that once a System is vulnerable to not give any LP anymore for running more plexes?? Its a bit ridicilous that they still get LP when a system is already vulnerable. (it encourages farming even more)
How will this possibly bring more farmers? I am trying to come up with ideas that would increase defencive plexing and thus force plexers to PvP.
I am not a farmer and I hate farmers with all my heart (they usually try to ***** my plexes (often ends with them in a pod)). |
|
Thaddeus Rees
EntroPraetorian Militia
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:45:00 -
[131] - Quote
What annoys me most about Npc's in offensive factional warfare complexes, is that to tank them in a frigate I need to swap out for a PvE fitted ship. Which inevitably means when anyone warps in looking for a fight I warp out, having had to use a fit that is completely unusable in PvP...
The same applies in reverse, and when I am hunting for people who are running offensive plexes they immediately warp off because they are using PvE fitted ships.
Since the point of factional warfare is that everything is designed to provoke a fight, let me say that I Really want that fight, but not if the game mechanics have forced me to use a PvE fitted ship...
I'm not sure what the solution is for this, but I imagine it lies in greatly nerfing (or even removing) those Npc's. Seperate system control from PvE... Aka, to PvE people should go and run factional warfare missions... |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
203
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:31:00 -
[132] - Quote
Thaddeus Rees wrote:..... And that is the wet dream for all of us .. to have a PvP centric mechanic in plexes. Problem is that FW has more alts per capita than even the most alt heavy null alliances, so designing such a system is nigh impossible.
The pragmatic/rational approach is to accept that some measure of PvE is part of plexing and making sure that it is moved to the background when/if PvP occurs .. all the while brainstorming for a way to make the wet dream come true.
|
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
210
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:06:00 -
[133] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Thaddeus Rees wrote:..... And that is the wet dream for all of us .. to have a PvP centric mechanic in plexes. Problem is that FW has more alts per capita than even the most alt heavy null alliances, so designing such a system is nigh impossible. The pragmatic/rational approach is to accept that some measure of PvE is part of plexing and making sure that it is moved to the background when/if PvP occurs .. all the while brainstorming for a way to make the wet dream come true. One must also remember that we fight for the militias of the empirs. That by itself implies an interaction with the NPCs of the empire navys... Removing them is not the option. Finding a way to use them that gives good pvp and meaningful content is what needs to occur (just don't ask me HOW). Why won't CCP fix the ongoing FW issues? NPC balance, timer bugs etc??? |
Coco Caine
Black Rise Combat Logistics
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:01:00 -
[134] - Quote
Plexing has no consistent story, and even if you could make a story up, plexing is no fun. What the hell is the game lore behind noob alt vigils orbiting around a space button in order to make a bunker vulnerable? Rats shouldn't play any significant role in faction warfare, which, for me, is about lore-based PVP.
Screw tedious plexing, conquest should happen through destruction of rat POS spawns Randomly spawn ungated military complexes ("POSes") that have to be destroyed (or repped up) in order to switch (maintain) system sov. They should have rats and guns that can defend the military plex from solo players. No more afk bot alt army conquest. Have the rats warp away if more than three players are on grid, so no more interfering with Pvp with "unfair" jams etc.
FW missions more generic Now to the FW missions. I personally enjoy running those. I'd like them to be more generic though, and with much less to no rats. Something like "Destroy small/medium/large communication node". I can't do them with a pvp ship, that sucks, so when someone wants some pewpew, I have to warp out. They could count towards sov switch, too, that way allowing solo and small gang players to contribute to the war.
Easy missions for noobies For noob players I'd introduce level 1,2 defensive "distribution"-style missions, where they can stay within the factions own systems. Missions like 'deliver a data core to a covert data center' or 'deploy/refuel a small/medium/large communication node'. That way, the fewer systems a faction has left, the more interesting it gets for newer players to run those easy missions.
No go implement the above changes :). |
Madbuster73
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 19:18:00 -
[135] - Quote
I have another Idea: you have to shoot the ihub and then it gets reinforced (always random time 24-48 hours) Then when it comes out the Militia that reinforced it can shoot it. and if it goes down people will get LP for it. for example 1 Million LP divided by everyone one the Killmail of the Ihub. (takes about 25-50 people to shoot a ihub so thats about 20.000/40.000 LP wich is not much. But that can be iterated on. AND you will have fights on the Ihubs :)
Ofcourse this is just another idea, feel free to improve it. |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
211
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 02:10:00 -
[136] - Quote
Madbuster73 wrote:I have another Idea: you have to shoot the ihub and then it gets reinforced (always random time 24-48 hours) Then when it comes out the Militia that reinforced it can shoot it. and if it goes down people will get LP for it. for example 1 Million LP divided by everyone one the Killmail of the Ihub. (takes about 25-50 people to shoot a ihub so thats about 20.000/40.000 LP wich is not much. But that can be iterated on. AND you will have fights on the Ihubs :)
Ofcourse this is just another idea, feel free to improve it. This idea does have some merit I guess. The people who reinforced it should also get some reward though since they might not make the second event due to TZ differences etc...
There needs to be a mechanic of some kind to force a defensive outcome as well as an offensive one. The offensive one is already defined - system flips and is not contested if the iHub is blown up.
One idea that could be exlored is if the defensive IHub comes out of reinforced and is not blown up after XYZ time (e.g. 4-6 hours perhaps) reverts the system to 50% contestion. This means the defending militia has the following choice 1) defensive plex to stop it going vulnerable 2) gamble on the second chance of being able to keep the IHub alive for long enough for it to reset and the system to drop to 50% contestion. Failure to do this would of course mean you lost that system...
Variations on this could be a timer that starts running once armor damage is repaired and the shields are above a certain amount (e.g. 80%). If the timer gets to 0, it is defended and a "defender reset" occurs. If the attackers get it below this threashold, the timer stops (maybe even resets). Why won't CCP fix the ongoing FW issues? Fix the speed tanking of plexes |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
206
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 04:10:00 -
[137] - Quote
The static EHP grind should only be offered as a solution when all other possibilities have been exhausted .. it is mind-numbingly dull, has been since CCP introduced it with null sovereignty and the associated towers .. still is with iHubs and SBUs.
Drama/Backstabbery/More interesting option: Replace bunker-bust with a NPC taskforce consisting of a couple of RR carriers, a supercarrier and an assortment of sub-capital ships .. EHP of S.Carrier roughly 2/3rds current bunker/iHub.
S.Carrier drops an encryption control module that has to be plugged into the iHub to flip system. While Navy is useless in a fight, they do have the bureaucracy down pat so validity of encryption protocol expires after four to six hours .. were an enemy (or ally ) to ninja-loot said module to prevent it from being installed into iHub, HQ sends another taskforce with a 'fresh' control module after the allotted time. NB: Control Module ALWAYS drops, only way to destroy it is to jettison and nuke can or trash in station, so get that ninja! |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
211
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 04:16:00 -
[138] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:The static EHP grind should only be offered as a solution when all other possibilities have been exhausted .. it is mind-numbingly dull, has been since CCP introduced it with null sovereignty and the associated towers .. still is with iHubs and SBUs. Drama/Backstabbery/More interesting option: Replace bunker-bust with a NPC taskforce consisting of a couple of RR carriers, a supercarrier and an assortment of sub-capital ships .. EHP of S.Carrier roughly 2/3rds current bunker/iHub. S.Carrier drops an encryption control module that has to be plugged into the iHub to flip system. While Navy is useless in a fight, they do have the bureaucracy down pat so validity of encryption protocol expires after four to six hours .. were an enemy (or ally ) to ninja-loot said module to prevent it from being installed into iHub, HQ sends another taskforce with a 'fresh' control module after the allotted time. NB: Control Module ALWAYS drops, only way to destroy it is to jettison and nuke can or trash in station, so get that ninja! If that is what is required. The point is that the event should be significant and give both sides a decent outcome.
If the defender wins, and then has to repeat the same exercise again 10 minute later as the system went back to 99.999999% contested and someone completes a minor, the event is somewhat pointless. The defender needs a significant reward for winning the engagement and good fights in and of itself is not enough. Why won't CCP fix the ongoing FW issues? Fix the speed tanking of plexes |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
206
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 04:41:00 -
[139] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:If that is what is required. The point is that the event should be significant and give both sides a decent outcome.
If the defender wins, and then has to repeat the same exercise again 10 minute later as the system went back to 99.999999% contested and someone completes a minor, the event is somewhat pointless. The defender needs a significant reward for winning the engagement and good fights in and of itself is not enough. One could combine it with the previously (and elsewhere) mentioned idea of having "Background NPC Battles" for flavour.
When system defences drop (Vulnerable), attackers HQ send a taskforce which is met by its equal from defenders HQ .. they'll go at it forever with neither side being able to break the other (ie. backdrop) .. militia's then get to duke it out for the right to nuke the opposing taskforce. If attacker wins, grinds the dynamic EHP, gets the drop and inserts it in iHub = LP reward and system flip. If defender wins grinds the dynamic EHP, gets the drop and inserts it in iHub = System contested status reset to 50%.
NB: This is on top of securing plexes. If system is taken down to say 95% by defender then the taskforce suddenly starts doing damage and wipes the attacking taskfoce (no module drop in that case) and goes home.
PS: I will entertain the most outrageous ideas and concepts if it means I don't have to shoot a damn brink in space ever again, hate that mechanic like the plague. |
Ashriban Kador
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 12:08:00 -
[140] - Quote
For a start ALL Facion Navy NPCs wether in FW or hanging around gates and stations in Empire should do Omni Damage with turrets and missles together. Just with racial flavour such as Amarr being slow large armour EHP with long range turrets and missiles, Caldari being the same but Shields instead of armour, Minmatar and Gallente being faster more spread EHP (both shields and armour, but not as much as Cal/Amarr) using short ranged turrets and rockets.
It would be nice to have Complexes renamed "Engagements" and have groups of both Factions NPCs inside duking it out between each other (and anyone entering the 'Engagement') but that would need a massive NPC AI rewrite and fiddling about with Standings. But if it can be done, it'll make defensive plexing more interesting since there will be something to kill. No timer. Just after all one sides waves are dead, a larger ship spawns. Possibly 1 grade up... IE a cruiser for Minor Plexes, although that might be a bit much for new players to solo. But then again, if that new player had his NPC faction navy spawns to help...
And the engagements scale up of course to Yoshida's Capital Ship Duke Out for the system flip... Your goals may align with some ... and with others, collide with the force of suns. |
|
Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D Defiant Legacy
41
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 16:23:00 -
[141] - Quote
Thaddeus Rees wrote:What annoys me most about Npc's in offensive factional warfare complexes, is that to tank them in a frigate I need to swap out for a PvE fitted ship.
Which size plexes are you tanking in a PVE fit frigate? And what is the difference between your PVP and PVE fits?
I'm struggling to see why (for example) a pvp fitted rifter couldn't kill the npc's in an amarr minor plex. (I have no direct experience of other faction npc's).
How about requiring more pilots to be able to capture larger plexes? Say, minimum of 1 player to cap a minor. 2 for a medium and 3 for a major.
Also, shooting npc's, while not perfect, is a better option than shooting inanimate objects.
|
hired gunman
Knights of Neraka
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:03:00 -
[142] - Quote
Shandir wrote:Have you considered coding NPCs to simulate hunting players in space, perhaps having a somewhat random timer of sitting still where NPCs will pretend to be probing you down, and then launch a small gang to fight. Also interesting would be if they could warp in to assist friendly fleets under attack, or try to gank roaming enemy gangs. I ask because when I first heard about the sleepers, I thought that was what they did - that they came looking for you when you trespassed in their territory, and it sounded awesome. It would be nice, generally, if the NPCs could start to take a more active role than just being floating targets - why can't they want to kick our asses sometimes? Edit: FW Noob Disclaimer - I have not joined FW *yet* but these recent changes intrugue me and I may join soon.
i like this but when deploying they should make it equal to the player with AI to challenge the player but not impossible for the player. At the same time have some player losses to this instances. |
Lady Hanguko
Suicide Lemmings
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 12:23:00 -
[143] - Quote
Sleepers and so forth, are advanced form of NPC farming.... Sometimes ppl just needs ISK, and too lazy, too bored or otherwise unimaginative to get other income quickly. Live it as it is. Want to have more advanced AI ? Sure, add more dungeons, improve end game NPC areas, such as WH space... add content. Live this basic simple source of income, there u can take a ship, know that to expect, farm some isk to buy ur next PvP cane.... Leave Empire mission NPC as is. |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
213
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 23:43:00 -
[144] - Quote
Lady Hanguko wrote:Sleepers and so forth, are advanced form of NPC farming.... Sometimes ppl just needs ISK, and too lazy, too bored or otherwise unimaginative to get other income quickly. Live it as it is. Want to have more advanced AI ? Sure, add more dungeons, improve end game NPC areas, such as WH space... add content. Live this basic simple source of income, there u can take a ship, know that to expect, farm some isk to buy ur next PvP cane.... Leave Empire mission NPC as is. Empire mission (L4) NPCs are not the same as FW NPCs and if you don't understand that, you don't understand the massive farming that has been occuring within some militias since the release of Inferno Why won't CCP fix the ongoing FW issues? Fix the speed tanking of plexes |
Madbuster73
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 10:17:00 -
[145] - Quote
Madbuster73 wrote:I have another Idea: you have to shoot the ihub and then it gets reinforced (always random time 24-48 hours) Then when it comes out the Militia that reinforced it can shoot it. and if it goes down people will get LP for it. for example 1 Million LP divided by everyone one the Killmail of the Ihub. (takes about 25-50 people to shoot a ihub so thats about 20.000/40.000 LP wich is not much. But that can be iterated on. AND you will have fights on the Ihubs :)
Ofcourse this is just another idea, feel free to improve it.
Ofcourse I meant that there is no need to plex a system anymore. No more plexes at all. Capturing Systems should not be done by spinning buttons at all. |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
31
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 05:35:00 -
[146] - Quote
I am increasingly convinced that we should just remove NPCs from plexes altogether. Instead have the plex button itself shoot at you if you are in the capture radius. The damage from these weapons will ramp up over time, but they can be disabled with the application of an amount of damage reasonable in proportion to the size of the plex.
PvPers can avoid being hobbled when fighting in hostile plexes, gangs of undersized ships can still run a plex without getting reamed, and speed tankers get exploded because they didn't disable the plex guns in time.
What we really don't need, though, is any more structure bashing. Structure bashing is worse than plexing. |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 12:52:00 -
[147] - Quote
Madbuster73 wrote:Ofcourse I meant that there is no need to plex a system anymore. No more plexes at all. Capturing Systems should not be done by spinning buttons at all.
So current corporations who have manpower to CTA for such pre-set operations would dictate every event in FW zone? And how convinient that your own corporation and their brosefs in Wolfsbrigade just happen to be such corporations.
So tell me, are you completely ignorant or shamelessly pushing your own agenda for making low-sec exactly like null-sec? If the latter is the case, why arent you going to null-sec already? |
VB Sarge
Tri-gun Lost Obsession
4
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 15:35:00 -
[148] - Quote
Apologies if this has been mentioned before...
From what i can see, there is a pretty big discrepancy on the different races NPC's in the plexes and missions. This leads to a pretty big imbalance as far as who has an advantage.
I think the biggest issue, with the imbalance, is missiles. It is very easy to mitigate all gun damage, and now that ewar for fw npc's has been turned off, it gives sides that don't have to mitigate missile damage a huge advantage.
In Amarr FW, it is very easy to mitigate all of the Minmatar NPC gun damage, however the missiles make it impossible to solo with the drug of choice, stealth bombers. Minmatar, however, don't have the same problem. They can easily dodge the laser damage, and there are no missiles, thus giving them a massive advantage.
I am unsure as to how Caldari/Gallente pan out, however I would estimate that it's likely the same situation.
As a solution, I think there are two choices.
1) Unify all the missions by letting all appropriate rats shoot missiles (i.e. sacrilege for amarr, etc)
2) Unify all the missions by preventing rats from shooting missiles
I think both have downsides, 1) of course is unfriendly to those that have gotten used to "easy mode". 2) makes missions easier for the sides that have had to 2-3 man missions in the past.
I would think option 2 would be the better option, as the sides that are having to deal with missiles are also the sides that are constantly on the "losing" end of FW. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2619
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 17:04:00 -
[149] - Quote
VB Sarge wrote: From what i can see, there is a pretty big discrepancy on the different races NPC's in the plexes and missions. This leads to a pretty big imbalance as far as who has an advantage.
I think the biggest issue, with the imbalance, is missiles. It is very easy to mitigate all gun damage, and now that ewar for fw npc's has been turned off, it gives sides that don't have to mitigate missile damage a huge advantage.
Absolutely. This is something that CCP is aware of, and something I very much want to fix as soon as possible. I don't know that a full NPC rebalance is going to happen earlier than winter expansion, but this is certainly the goal to shoot for. All races should have an equal challenge when running plexes and missions.
Once again, the ewar removal was only a temporary fix, it is by no means intended to be the end-all solution to fixing plex imbalances. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
217
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 23:12:00 -
[150] - Quote
VB Sarge wrote:Apologies if this has been mentioned before...
From what i can see, there is a pretty big discrepancy on the different races NPC's in the plexes and missions. This leads to a pretty big imbalance as far as who has an advantage.
I think the biggest issue, with the imbalance, is missiles. It is very easy to mitigate all gun damage, and now that ewar for fw npc's has been turned off, it gives sides that don't have to mitigate missile damage a huge advantage.
In Amarr FW, it is very easy to mitigate all of the Minmatar NPC gun damage, however the missiles make it impossible to solo with the drug of choice, stealth bombers. Minmatar, however, don't have the same problem. They can easily dodge the laser damage, and there are no missiles, thus giving them a massive advantage.
I am unsure as to how Caldari/Gallente pan out, however I would estimate that it's likely the same situation.
As a solution, I think there are two choices.
1) Unify all the missions by letting all appropriate rats shoot missiles (i.e. sacrilege for amarr, etc)
2) Unify all the missions by preventing rats from shooting missiles
I think both have downsides, 1) of course is unfriendly to those that have gotten used to "easy mode". 2) makes missions easier for the sides that have had to 2-3 man missions in the past.
I would think option 2 would be the better option, as the sides that are having to deal with missiles are also the sides that are constantly on the "losing" end of FW. This has been raised repeatedly and I have had a very frank discussion with Hans on it.
It is interesting to note how quickly the minmitar fell from Tier 4 once the target painters were removed from their NPCs as it increased the ability of the Amarr guys to speed tank.
All up, speed tanking is stupid and the fix a number of us have been asking for is to require NPCs to be cleared from the field before the timer can complete until a better mechanic is developed. Why won't CCP fix the ongoing FW issues? Fix the speed tanking of plexes
CCP Sreegs - I'm just Winston Wolf |
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
218
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 04:10:00 -
[151] - Quote
Pretty sure the main reason for the Mimes losing Tier 4 so fast is that they no longer get the LP dumps from the LP-for-Kills exploit perpetrated by certain individuals with null affiliations
Mr. Har, just how much of a difference has the removal of TP's made .. how "low" can one go shipwise for offensive plexes?
Can't wait to see/hear what the plan is to sort the mess that is the system upgrades/WZC mechanics to make FW more than ninja'ing as many offensive plexes as possible with no incentive to defend whatsoever .. but is sister thread so .. |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
217
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 06:39:00 -
[152] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Pretty sure the main reason for the Mimes losing Tier 4 so fast is that they no longer get the LP dumps from the LP-for-Kills exploit perpetrated by certain individuals with null affiliations Mr. Har, just how much of a difference has the removal of TP's made .. how "low" can one go shipwise for offensive plexes? Can't wait to see/hear what the plan is to sort the mess that is the system upgrades/WZC mechanics to make FW more than ninja'ing as many offensive plexes as possible with no incentive to defend whatsoever .. but is sister thread so .. Not sure as we have just moved to Caldari Militia and I have yet to try their plexes, but this also means I haven't had a chance to try Amarr ones Why won't CCP fix the ongoing FW issues? Fix the speed tanking of plexes
CCP Sreegs - I'm just Winston Wolf |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2619
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 16:46:00 -
[153] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote: All up, speed tanking is stupid and the fix a number of us have been asking for is to require NPCs to be cleared from the field before the timer can complete until a better mechanic is developed.
Yup, though its important to remember that mandating PvE for plex seizure is just that, a band-aid solution that many have asked for if they have to wait for the rebalance.
It's looking like even that fix itself is unlikely before winter, so i suggest the conversation zero in back on Ytterbium's original post, rather than us fixating too much on forced-PVE solutions that ultimately head away from the direction of making Sovereignty more PvP-based.
Assuming we get fewer, smarter, easy-to-kill-in-our-PvP-ship rats that still can effectively hamper the non-combat alt-farming activity, there's no reason to layer the forced-PvE solution on top of that, if the new rat system works well.
What I want everyone asking themselves is this - if I could flush the inside of the plex out and replace it with anything in the world, what do I want inside? NPC's ? No NPC's ? Incursion-style rats that you HAVE to kill, turning FW sov into a race to complete mini-incursions? Or simply a dash of incurion AI into some new custom NPC's that don't FORCE PvE, but still cut out the alt-farming?
I just hate to see us limit ourselves by focusing too much on the must-kill-all-rats issue, when that was only one quick fix and there's other more elegant solutions that push FW sovereignty towards PvP, not PvE.
The "Holy Grail" solution would a sov system that doesnt require PvE (or button orbiting) at all - and is heavily PvP centric. But to achieve that there needs to be more brainstorming (don't just rely on CCP to come up with that for you), or more contemplation and consensus with regards existing ideas.
TL,DR: Instead of waiting for the better idea to be developed, WE should be developing the better idea *right now* instead of settling for yet another band-aid. Winter is a golden window to get some major work done on plexes, lets not let it go to waste!
If we can't come up with something better to pitch to CCP, we'll be left with an upgraded PvE-based Sov system, plain and simple. If thats what everyone wants, great, they've said they can beef up the PvE aspect. But if thats NOT what you all envision for the feature, we gotta pull together and nail down the alternative now, or forever hold our peace. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Cromwell Savage
Quantum Cats Syndicate
76
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 17:46:00 -
[154] - Quote
I think another "band aid" until a full npc rebalance can be made to put all racial plexes on an even keel......is to get rid of the station docking denial mechanic completely.
To continue to allow a seriously flawed PVE mechanic to have such a massive impact on lo-sec PvP staging is what is most wrong with this latest "update".
I was never in favor of denying docking rights (services...sure) and the abysmal imbalance in plex "diffculty" just reinforces it.....after all, I'm not in FW to pretend to be in 0.0.....
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2620
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 18:24:00 -
[155] - Quote
Cromwell Savage wrote:I think another "band aid" until a full npc rebalance can be made to put all racial plexes on an even keel......is to get rid of the station docking denial mechanic completely.
To continue to allow a seriously flawed PVE mechanic to have such a massive impact on lo-sec PvP staging is what is most wrong with this latest "update".
I was never in favor of denying docking rights (services...sure) and the abysmal imbalance in plex "diffculty" just reinforces it.....after all, I'm not in FW to pretend to be in 0.0.....
One of the ideas I brought up with CCP at the CSM summit was moving "dockblocking" to a system upgrade feature, rather than an automatic effect. This would enable underdog attackers to get ships into a contested system to assist with reships during a siege. It would also give people a tangible reason to invest in upgrades, rather than for the novelty of half-price clones.
Lucky for the anti-dockblocking crowd, CCP was really receptive to the idea, I think its a very achievable fix as long as the community is still interested in it by the time CCP begins work on the Winter Expansion.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
192
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 19:43:00 -
[156] - Quote
Mohammed Jihad here ... no worry guys ... im just gonna get a new pickup with a machinegun from the local US-Army warehouse, they dont seem to mind. I have 20 of them parked in their yard.
Dockblocking should stay the way it is. It makes sense and stops the moronic situations where the enemies are hiding in your own barracks and you cant root them out either.
It should affect highsec space too, make tradecenter systems like jita into freeports where concorde is the law. Everything else .. no docking.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
483
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 19:47:00 -
[157] - Quote
Hans
Good job keeping focus. As you know I would prefer no npcs at all as per my signature.
But if we must have npcs then post number 73 in this thread is what I would like to see:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1463058#post1463058
I guess I still get the feeling that posting here is like throwing a bottle with a message in it in the sea. No one from csm or ccp ever seems to indicate which of the hundreds of ideas they are looking at more seriously or why they are tending to reject others.
So these threads end up as lots of random posts that few players follow up on because it would take forever.
It would be nice for some input on the ideas I posted, and on ?sigma pi's? idea of having the counter to start to count back to zero if you leave a plex after and enemy lands on grid. (or on grid of the accel gate)
I can say that just making it so that you can't speed tank plexes will not make faction war a pvp game. I think ccp needs to look at how to do that directly (like timer count downs following warp offs and notification systesms) and start working toward changes in that direction. If they aren't looking in that direction please redirect their gaze.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Lili Lu
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 20:00:00 -
[158] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cromwell Savage wrote:I think another "band aid" until a full npc rebalance can be made to put all racial plexes on an even keel......is to get rid of the station docking denial mechanic completely.
To continue to allow a seriously flawed PVE mechanic to have such a massive impact on lo-sec PvP staging is what is most wrong with this latest "update".
I was never in favor of denying docking rights (services...sure) and the abysmal imbalance in plex "diffculty" just reinforces it.....after all, I'm not in FW to pretend to be in 0.0.....
One of the ideas I brought up with CCP at the CSM summit was moving "dockblocking" to a system upgrade feature, rather than an automatic effect. This would enable underdog attackers to get ships into a contested system to assist with reships during a siege. It would also give people a tangible reason to invest in upgrades, rather than for the novelty of half-price clones. Lucky for the anti-dockblocking crowd, CCP was really receptive to the idea, I think its a very achievable fix as long as the community is still interested in it by the time CCP begins work on the Winter Expansion. Emphasizing the sad part. Going to be a long hot summer for the two present underdogs |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2624
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 20:22:00 -
[159] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Hans Good job keeping focus. As you know I would prefer no npcs at all as per my signature. But if we must have npcs then post number 73 in this thread is what I would like to see: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1463058#post1463058I guess I still get the feeling that posting here is like throwing a bottle with a message in it in the sea. No one from csm or ccp ever seems to indicate which of the hundreds of ideas they are looking at more seriously or why they are tending to reject others. So these threads end up as lots of random posts that few players follow up on because it would take forever. It would be nice for some input on the ideas I posted, and on ?sigma pi's? idea of having the counter to start to count back to zero if you leave a plex after and enemy lands on grid. (or on grid of the accel gate) I can say that just making it so that you can't speed tank plexes will not make faction war a pvp game. I think ccp needs to look at how to do that directly (like timer count downs following warp offs and notification systesms) and start working toward changes in that direction. If they aren't looking in that direction please redirect their gaze.
The reason you haven't heard much is because of the schedule and timeline, like I've been trying to explain. Those of us on the CSM are knee-deep wrapping up the summit minutes, CCP just finished their June release and is beginning their summer vacation. Work won't begin in earnest again for several more weeks, and teams are being reshuffled a bit to get some fresh faces onto the project. That's why I've tried to keep people talking, and not just saying "what's the point??" because the longer you do that, the longer we use up valuable discussion time that could be used to reach some consensus as to what to tell CCP once they're actually ready to begin the next phase of the project.
I personally like your proposal for better notifications for enemies entering plexes, and I also like SigmaPi's idea of the plex resetting when you leave, to encourage people to stick it out and fight over it instead of fleeing constantly. But in the end, me liking an idea isn't enough, I don't just take any old idea that I like to CCP - it needs to be something solidly supported by the community first. If there's no community discussion of an issue, I'm not going to just "boosh" it to CCP over everyone's heads, its just not how I've chosen to operate.
In general - I don't think there's much purpose sitting around worrying about whether CCP likes an idea or not. They were pretty receptive to ideas at the summit - as usual the challenge is more in obtaining as close to community consensus as is ever possible, that's really the bottleneck in the process right now. CCP's not really stonewalled any popular community requests yet, unless you count not changing things at the last minute before they had a chance to see any of the inferno changes in action. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Dynast
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
50
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 20:31:00 -
[160] - Quote
Station lockout has at least taken all the ******** station games out of FW, and that's a vast improvement on six months ago.
Requiring all NPCs to be killed would fix the worst of the issues with FW plexes. I'm not sure a big redo is really necessary or desirable. Look at what happened to nullsec sov when they redid it, went from bad to ******* godawful. |
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
484
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 20:46:00 -
[161] - Quote
Dynast wrote:Station lockout has at least taken all the ******** station games out of FW, and that's a vast improvement on six months ago..
No it hasn't, at least not if you fight for a faction that has no stable place to base.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
484
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 21:15:00 -
[162] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
....I personally like your proposal for better notifications for enemies entering plexes, and I also like SigmaPi's idea of the plex resetting when you leave, to encourage people to stick it out and fight over it instead of fleeing constantly. .
Now we are narrowing it down a bit.
I thought SignmaPi's idea would be to have the counter start counting back to zero. Not automatically reset. I think a reset is not a good idea. A single large gang (I won't say blob because I don't mind blobs) can just make the rounds and undue everyones plexing by warping in a single time and immediately leaving.
With respect to this I also think it should only start counting back down if a wt lands on grid or on grid of the accel gate before you leave. That way my own timer won't start counting down if I want to leave to chase someone else out. Also some people like to run defensive plexes up a bit so that the offensive plexer will have to sped more time plexing if they want to cap that plex. I think that is a valid idea.
I haven't heard anyone object to this. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Tsubutai
The Tuskers
104
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 22:00:00 -
[163] - Quote
I'm not in FW, so treat this suggestion with due scepticism, but how's this for an offensive plex rework:
When you enter the plex there are some token hostile NPCs that can be killed in less than a minute in a site-appropriate pvp ship without significant difficulty. Once these hostile NPCs are dead, an NPC transport ship belonging to your faction spawns next to the plex button and starts the plex timer - you could have some RP fluff here about it being a troop transport disgorging marines to storm the hostile facility or whatever. No further hostile NPCs spawn for the remaining duration of the plex. If the timer runs to completion without interruption, the plex is captured and you get your LP payout as occurs at present. If a hostile player warps in, the timer continues to run down. However, the hostile can shoot and blow up the transport ship (which should have maybe 2x the EHP of the payer ship class for which the plex was designed, so perhaps 15-20k ehp in a minor plex). If the transport ship is blown up, the attempt to capture the plex fails and the hostile player gets some kind of reward, whether it's loot from the transport, LP, or whatever. Obviously, if the hostile is shooting the transport while you're still in the plex, you should be able to kill him without issue...
The idea is that you have to fit at least some guns to your plexing ship to clear the initial few NPCs, and if you choose to run rather than fight when a hostile comes in, they can quickly negate your work and get a little reward for themselves. However, because there are very few combat NPCs in the plex, they can't significantly distort the outcome of any fights that happen inside it. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2628
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 22:40:00 -
[164] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote: The idea is that you have to fit at least some guns to your plexing ship to clear the initial few NPCs, and if you choose to run rather than fight when a hostile comes in, they can quickly negate your work and get a little reward for themselves. However, because there are very few combat NPCs in the plex, they can't significantly distort the outcome of any fights that happen inside it.
I think this is very much a step in the right direction. I still don't like mandating PvE, but if its there, it needs to be much less intrusive, and easily dispatched by just about any basic PvP fit, including armor buffer tanks. Thats a core design value both the players and CCP can agree upon, thankfully.
I kind of envisioned more of a static small conflict between two opposing NPC's gangs, where whichever faction entered would be able to assist and kill off the other faction NPC's, tipping the scales and helping to secure the plex. That way both defensive and offensive plexing become an engaging activity that can't simply be delegated to a day-old speedtanker alt. I like your idea in particular because it rewards hostile interference, and penalizes the flight response. What is sorely needed is a directive incentive to stay rather than to bounce constantly.
I also REALLY want to investigate the possibility of NPC AI that would involve the rats de-aggroing whenever hostile players enter the plex. I think it would be awesome to have engaging NPC content for when hostiles aren't around, but have rats "stand down" when a capsuleer comes in to take you on themselves. That way, there could be a PvP-alternative to the "must kill all rats" provision everyone's been begging for - if you're challenged and you win, maybe that allows for a successful plex capture in lieu of grinding through a stack of NPC's. If you aren't challenged, you complete some manageable NPC content instead. I just think we take for granted that NPC's interfere with PvP, there's no reason that they have to if CCP is redesigning the content anyways. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2628
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 22:47:00 -
[165] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Now we are narrowing it down a bit.
I thought SignmaPi's idea would be to have the counter start counting back to zero. Not automatically reset. I think a reset is not a good idea. A single large gang (I won't say blob because I don't mind blobs) can just make the rounds and undue everyones plexing by warping in a single time and immediately leaving.
With respect to this I also think it should only start counting back down if a wt lands on grid or on grid of the accel gate before you leave. That way my own timer won't start counting down if I want to leave to chase someone else out. Also some people like to run defensive plexes up a bit so that the offensive plexer will have to sped more time plexing if they want to cap that plex. I think that is a valid idea.
I haven't heard anyone object to this.
You're absolutely right, a passive tick-down of the plex is much better than allowing a blob to control whether you can plex and accomplish anything at all. Thought now that its been brought up, I like the idea of rewarding plex defense through incentives (like protect-the-transport) as supposed to pure clock manipulation. Either way, good ideas, keep em coming. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2629
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 23:05:00 -
[166] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote: Once these hostile NPCs are dead, an NPC transport ship belonging to your faction spawns next to the plex button and starts the plex timer - you could have some RP fluff here about it being a troop transport disgorging marines to storm the hostile facility or whatever. No further hostile NPCs spawn for the remaining duration of the plex. If the timer runs to completion without interruption, the plex is captured and you get your LP payout as occurs at present. If a hostile player warps in, the timer continues to run down. However, the hostile can shoot and blow up the transport ship (which should have maybe 2x the EHP of the payer ship class for which the plex was designed, so perhaps 15-20k ehp in a minor plex). If the transport ship is blown up, the attempt to capture the plex fails and the hostile player gets some kind of reward, whether it's loot from the transport, LP, or whatever. Obviously, if the hostile is shooting the transport while you're still in the plex, you should be able to kill him without issue...
NOW, picture this with Dust 514 troops in a real troop carrier.....and yes, I'm 100% serious. This is something I've talked about in the past, the fact that the button timer is a nice unit of time (15-20 minutes) that dovetails nicely with an FPS match length, and that CCP should consider extending Dust 514 warfare into space compounds, not just planet surface battles. You've just come up with a better way to integrate them into the current plex model than I did at the time.
I know it sounds pie-in-the-sky, but I don't really think it is. Having a plex warfare system that is set up for this makes it all the more easy to integrate further down the road, all CCP would have to do is build a space outpost map for each race, and drop queued-up dust marines into matches as plexes were triggered and run. Militias could either allow public groups to take these deep-space missions for a fixed NPC pay rate, or have the option of paying their own highly skilled mercs to defend the plexes in systems they really cared about. CCP's already talked about Faction Warfare being one of the early places where the link will be built between the two games, this is a MUCH more meaningful and practical way to integrate the two systems without having to depend on fights over planet resources that people don't really care much about anyways, comparatively.
I think it would be awesome! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.07.07 02:33:00 -
[167] - Quote
The big problem is this: It's possible to farm FW plexes of every size with low-skill alts in T1 frigs.
Literally every day I see an endless procession of unarmed Incursus' and stabbed Merlins going semi-AFK in plexes and warping off the instant their spidey-sense detects imminent PVP. It's impossible to defend systems effectively (outside of militia basing areas) because they'll simply leave and come back once you get bored, with the T1 plexing swarms running practically 24/7
The solution: Spawns have to be killed, or at least a 'boss' or 'boss wave' that needs to be killed before the plex can be capped |
Tsubutai
The Tuskers
105
|
Posted - 2012.07.07 09:58:00 -
[168] - Quote
Since at least one person liked my offensive plex suggestion, I'll make another concerning defensive plexing: it is dumb and shouldn't exist in its current form. The lack of rewards is dumb, orbiting a button doing nothing while guarded by friendly NPCs is dumb, it's all dumb. So get rid of it entirely.
Instead, have offensive plexes spawn for both the the defending and the attacking faction in contested systems, with the number of plexes for the defenders (and also their sizes and respawn rates) being dependent on the capture status of the system. For example, if my system was uncontested, I wouldn't have any plexes to run. At 1-30% contested, I might have at most 2 minor plexes to run, with long respawn timers. If it was 31-60% contested, I'd have a maximum of four minor/intermediate plexes available, with slightly less long respawn timers; at 61-90% contested, I'd have a maximum of six with minors/intermediates/gated majors available with near-current respawn timers; and at 91-100% contested, I'd have the full current complement of plexes available, with current respawn timers. In all cases, attackers would have the full standard complement of plexes available, with normal respawn timers. To compensate for the long respawn timers at low capture status percentages, give each "defensive" plex a bigger impact on capture status when the system is only lightly contested.
The idea here is that you can't efficiently farm your backwater systems for LP because the long respawn timers and low number of available plexes when the system is lightly contested mean you can only run a few per hour (you could further discourage "defensive" LP farming by scaling the LP payout according to the system capture status...). However, this doesn't affect your ability to decontest your system because each individual "defensive" plex you do has a greater impact on the capture status. At the same time, you're still running the risk of having a hostile come in to kill your transport and render your efforts ineffective if you're not willing to fight. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
485
|
Posted - 2012.07.07 12:30:00 -
[169] - Quote
No lp for defensive plexing does at least a few good things:
1) Encourages the defending side to stop plexers in pvp before they capture a plex so that they do not need to orbit a button for no pay.
2) Gives some reason to join the side with fewer systems since although your lp is worth very little you have more opportunities to make lp through plexing. It also limits the winning sides ability to make lp through plexing. Yes they can still make lp from missions but that does not help their occupancy efforts and if enough people switch over to missioning instead of plexing then the side with fewer systems is given some respite.
3) It can lead to a war where many systems become vulnerable or close to vulnerable and then flipped in a dramatic fashion. Sure this hasn't happened, yet. But we are starting to see it signs of how it will work. One of the caldari or gallente refused to flip a system after bringing it to vulnerable. The minmatar are already getting concerned of the prospect that amarr will start farming those back systems in a way that will be very difficult/tedious for them to recapture. Once the amarr gets around to plexing those back systems and forcing the minmatar to plex for no gain we will start to wear them out. We haven't really begun that yet but it will work if we do decide to do that.
4) Its sort of neat to use individual greed as a balance.
5) If you want to farm systems where your enemy can't even dock then eve offers that already. Sov null sec. I think sov null sec is boring because it allows "defensive plexing." - farming rats and running plexes in its own systems.
IMO Null sec would greatly benefit from a system like this where you are rewarded for taking over new space instead of just sitting in your space and farming it. IMO, that is a big reason why null sec has been so boring for the last few years. By forcing people to take over new space in order to gain isk your encourage conflict.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Avery Jaydefyre
Galactic Organization of Tariff and Trade.
2
|
Posted - 2012.07.07 20:58:00 -
[170] - Quote
Squatdog wrote:The big problem is this: It's possible to farm FW plexes of every size with low-skill alts in T1 frigs.
Literally every day I see an endless procession of unarmed Incursus' and stabbed Merlins going semi-AFK in plexes and warping off the instant their spidey-sense detects imminent PVP. It's impossible to defend systems effectively (outside of militia basing areas) because they'll simply leave and come back once you get bored, with the T1 plexing swarms running practically 24/7
The solution: Spawns have to be killed, or at least a 'boss' or 'boss wave' that needs to be killed before the plex can be capped
I'm currently awaiting standings to set to join Amarr fw. I was a bit bored last night and went out to pew pew in the neighborhood and discovered a rifter speed tanking an Amarr major:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13912939
Now time for an opinion:
Take one of the current npc fw skins and apply it to frigates. Then boost the speed, tracking, and d p s on the new ship, rename it and make it exclusive to major fw plexes. This should prevent speed tanking in major plexes while allowing minors to be viable for appropriate ship types. It also does not affect current missions in high sec by doing so.
This also removes the e-war discussion from the equation in how to deal with the speed tankers. Additionally, it follows the philosophy of large ship types needing the support of smaller ship types.
Start by adding two or three of them and then slowly adjust from there, rather than making a drastic change immediately.
A 5 day old alt should not be earning as much as they are currently able to in fw. |
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
219
|
Posted - 2012.07.07 21:12:00 -
[171] - Quote
eWar removal was never about speed/tracking tankers, but rather the occasional pew where it ended up as a turd in one sides soup .. speed/tracking tankers can only be removed by "Kill Everything!" or redesigning/-coding plexes entirely.
As for topic: Brain left on idle came up with the idea of merging the two current threads or at least their premises. Remove WZC and make it constellation based, the higher the level of "control" the higher the level of "insurgency" .. ie. upgrade all systems in constellation to gain benefit at the cost of making the life for an attacker 'easier'. One could upgrade a backwater constellation necessitating extra travel to avail of said upgrades or one could do it closer to home (where the baddies prowl) and have to actively defend not one one but several systems for bonuses to remain intact. Pros: More pew. One up for the underdog. Cons: My brain does not deal with such trivial things so not applicable.
Basically ripping yet another bit of the working mechanics from Incursions .. constellation conflict/incentives rather than system conflict/entire zone benefit. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 00:26:00 -
[172] - Quote
Not only can low-skill T1 frig alts speed-tank any plex, players can abuse their faction standing and run plexes without the NPCs even aggressing.
Which is just great. |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
36
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 01:07:00 -
[173] - Quote
edit: **** these forums. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 01:56:00 -
[174] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:edit: **** these forums.
What my dear, departed post said at some length is that speed-tankers are a symptom, not the problem. Plexes are supposed to be generating fights. The problem is that they generally aren't, except in hotly contested systems, and I think we need to identify why that is before trying to come up with a fix. I blame the insignificant of an individual plex (which discourages defenders from stopping plexers and discourages attackers from trying to hold a given plex), the pve/pvp divide problem (which further discourages plexers from fighting), and the reward structure (which discourages offensively plexing in a group).
You're doing it wrong.
Plexing is GREAT for getting solo and small gang fights, without being dropped on or blobbed by T3/Logi/Faggotry
|
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 01:59:00 -
[175] - Quote
Oh God, look at your killboard...
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Milton+Middleson
Now I understand. |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
36
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 02:00:00 -
[176] - Quote
No, plexes are sometimes useful for getting solo and small gang fights. The only part of them that contributes to that is the type-limited acceleration gate. System capture is more or less irrelevant, and the NPCs actively inhibit small engagements, where their presence makes a more significant impact. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 02:22:00 -
[177] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:No, plexes are sometimes useful for getting solo and small gang fights. The only part of them that contributes to that is the type-limited acceleration gate. System capture is more or less irrelevant, and the NPCs actively inhibit small engagements, where their presence makes a more significant impact.
The NPCs hit like bitches and have no EWAR now, so a single spawn has very little influence of fights.
Also, their limited aggro range means that PVPers will immediately rush to the warp-in point so the NPCs can't ***** in on the killmail.
|
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
36
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 02:54:00 -
[178] - Quote
So, what you're saying is, plexes are great, so long as you find an unopened one or one where the spawns have been cleared, of the appropriate size, where you stay out of NPC aggro range (which entails pretty much not moving at all from the warp in).
Thanks for confirming my point.
The acceleration gate is the only part of the FW plex that is performing its intended function. The other elements are either non-contributors or adversely impact the creation of fights. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 03:01:00 -
[179] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:So, what you're saying is, plexes are great, so long as you find an unopened one or one where the spawns have been cleared, of the appropriate size, where you stay out of NPC aggro range (which entails pretty much not moving at all from the warp in).
Thanks for confirming my point.
The acceleration gate is the only part of the FW plex that is performing its intended function. The other elements are either non-contributors or adversely impact the creation of fights.
No. Once again, the NPCs contribute very little and contribute ZERO if the fight is near the warp-in.
In fact, the only time they make a major difference is if there's a full spawn as the result of the plex being farmed by an unarmed Incursus alt.
|
Hurtado Soneka
Serenity Prime
60
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 04:17:00 -
[180] - Quote
Players need to clear out the npcs before the timer goes down in offensive plexing, some minute lp reward for defensive plexing, really its that simple |
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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
30
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 04:15:00 -
[181] - Quote
As a Caldari FW NPC's in plexes are not a big issue for me. If the other militias have a more difficult time plexing - then hell yeah, balance them so that it is fair. I prefer the npc's despawn when a defender arrives.
Now the real NPC issue that needs a fix. NPC faction Police in High Sec. (CCP or Hans - plz give your comments)
Why do they exist?
Who do they protect?
How do they protect them?
What does Concord do?
What would change if NPC police were deleted?
Why do faction police shoot their own military?
Name one advantage of having them in game-
Name one disadvantage if they were deleted-
I should be able to be -10 and still fly in my own factions space without 'police' interference.
If I decide to gank a pod in high sec - they can't stop me. Concord will respond but the 'police' will have done nothing to stop the gank. This proves the police are a purposeless annoyance that need deleting.
Wanna know the real reason why so many systems are left vulnerable??? CAUSE WE CAN"T GET OUR FKN DRAKES OUT OF JITA CAUSE OF SCRAMMING NPC'S. Again FFS CCP please delete the faction police.
I said 'please' this time.
Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 08:48:00 -
[182] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote:I'm not in FW, so treat this suggestion with due scepticism, but how's this for an offensive plex rework:
When you enter the plex there are some token hostile NPCs that can be killed in less than a minute in a site-appropriate pvp ship without significant difficulty. Once these hostile NPCs are dead, an NPC transport ship belonging to your faction spawns next to the plex button and starts the plex timer - you could have some RP fluff here about it being a troop transport disgorging marines to storm the hostile facility or whatever. No further hostile NPCs spawn for the remaining duration of the plex. If the timer runs to completion without interruption, the plex is captured and you get your LP payout as occurs at present. If a hostile player warps in, the timer continues to run down. However, the hostile can shoot and blow up the transport ship (which should have maybe 2x the EHP of the payer ship class for which the plex was designed, so perhaps 15-20k ehp in a minor plex). If the transport ship is blown up, the attempt to capture the plex fails and the hostile player gets some kind of reward, whether it's loot from the transport, LP, or whatever. Obviously, if the hostile is shooting the transport while you're still in the plex, you should be able to kill him without issue...
The idea is that you have to fit at least some guns to your plexing ship to clear the initial few NPCs, and if you choose to run rather than fight when a hostile comes in, they can quickly negate your work and get a little reward for themselves. However, because there are very few combat NPCs in the plex, they can't significantly distort the outcome of any fights that happen inside it.
I really got excited while reading this. This is a very good way to handle it. Right now I can just hop on a (insert any cheap t1 frig name here) and do any size of plex without problems. This is wrong. Needs to be changed....and this suggestion looks very good for solving it. |
VB Sarge
Tri-gun Lost Obsession
5
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 09:03:00 -
[183] - Quote
The biggest issue, that I can think of, with FW is that right now, as it stands, people are not forced to fight.
The problem with 0 day alts speed tanking in throw away ships (and how this isn't split evenly across all races, some races such as minmatar and caldari can do this while gallente and amarr can not) has been brought up, and I agree that it is more a symptom of the issue, and not the issue itself. It still needs fixed, though.
Here are a few ideas, that came up in a brain storming session. I think they fit in this thread, as they are predominantly ideas that are based on the rats.
1) Change the warp in to on top of the button. - This would mitigate the ability to just warp off as soon as you see someone land in your plex and force more fights
2) Require people to kill all of the rats before conquering the plex - This would require people to use ships other than 0 day alts. You could still use said alt to tank, however I think idea 3 is a good fix for this
3) Make FW rats akin to sleeper and incursion rats. - This change should effect the target switching, and not necessarily making them incredibly tough - This would require small groups, or well fit out individuals, to complete these plexes
4) Give rewards for defensively running plexes - The idea here, is give a reason to go out and save your systems from being conquered - (thought about the idea of, giving rewards to someone for chasing someone off or killing someone in an offensive plex and running the button down to 0, was shot down as the idea of using alts to exploit this was brought up)
5) Slightly off topic with the rats, however on par with forcing fights, change the way the ihub mechanic and system flip works. - Once system is brought to 100% vulnerable, ihub goes into reinforced with some random or fixed timer for when it comes out and can be shot. - This gives time for both sides to prepare for a big fight - More found in this thread: See Third Post
Once we make it easier to engage and eliminate all of the ninja taking of systems, thus giving the defensive side a fair chance, I think the system will be a lot better. The rats becoming uniform, with all 4 races using the same weapon systems (as far as turrets and missiles, or just turrets) helps as well. These are things that need to be done together, and not one or the other. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
488
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 23:16:00 -
[184] - Quote
Was the e-war supposed to get removed? I was getting target painted just now in a plex. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2644
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 16:57:00 -
[185] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:As a Caldari FW NPC's in plexes are not a big issue for me. If the other militias have a more difficult time plexing - then hell yeah, balance them so that it is fair. I prefer the npc's despawn when a defender arrives.
Now the real NPC issue that needs a fix. NPC faction Police in High Sec. (CCP or Hans - plz give your comments)
Why do they exist?
Who do they protect?
How do they protect them?
What does Concord do?
What would change if NPC police were deleted?
Why do faction police shoot their own military?
Name one advantage of having them in game-
Name one disadvantage if they were deleted-
I should be able to be -10 and still fly in my own factions space without 'police' interference.
If I decide to gank a pod in high sec - they can't stop me. Concord will respond but the 'police' will have done nothing to stop the gank. This proves the police are a purposeless annoyance that need deleting.
Wanna know the real reason why so many systems are left vulnerable??? CAUSE WE CAN"T GET OUR FKN DRAKES OUT OF JITA CAUSE OF SCRAMMING NPC'S. Again FFS CCP please delete the faction police.
I said 'please' this time.
Faction police shoot criminals because crime is a crime. Doesn't matter if you belong to the military, IRL you murder someone that isn't a war target, you're going to jail. I don't think conceptually there's any issue with police enforcing crime.
The penalty to being a full-blown pirate is restricted access to high sec space. If you want to ninja through it fast you still can, but ruthless criminals are not supposed to enjoy all the privileges of shopping and basing out of major trade hubs.
EVE is a game full of decisions and consequences, you're essentially asking for criminals to live without penalty as long as they enlist in a militia.
I understand why you're frustrated, but many players for years have simply made the decision to curb their piracy in exchange for shopping and basing freely in the safety of high sec, or to go full pirate and send an alt to do the shopping instead. You're really the first person that's brought up the idea of removing the penalty for crime..... Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2644
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 18:39:00 -
[186] - Quote
Just wanted to point out that we had a good talk amongst various militia leaders this weekend, you can listen to the full podcast and discuss what you heard in the linked thread. Enjoy! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
31
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 04:38:00 -
[187] - Quote
Ty for the response Hans. At work atm so if something I say gets confusing - sorry - I'm rushing this response.
I understand your perspective - It does seem that I am asking for no penalty for crime. However that is not my motivation. I would simply prefer the game make sense and not be annoying for no purpose.
In FW - once you move to low sec you will eventually end up with a negative status. Mine has been heading south at a decent rate since I moved to low sec.
The low sec aggression rules were designed for a very different sov system/low sec. One has been updated but the consequences for actually playing within that system have not been updated.
This problem occurs mostly just from chasing pirates out of plexes. If you do not shoot first and control the situation - you will generally die due to inaction. The only alternative is to leave the plex - which contradicts CCP's idea that these changes will encourage pvp. Players in high sec can already shoot people with low sec status - NPC's are not needed. The current system that has my own factions NPC's attacking me is flawed/broken.
As for the penalty for being a criminal - Increase my Insurance - broker fees - whatever - but not being able to return to the fight due to PvE content is not how FW should be.
Small ship are no hassle to get around in. As long as I don't undock a Drake and try and do something super evil like warp to a gate - all is OK. So I can warp a thrasher to someones pod - but not a drake to a gate.
I am not looking for a win button or an easier time in game - I just honestly believe that what most likely started out with the best intentions - is now a worn out and pointless bit of code that REDUCES player content and participation in pvp. Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 15:21:00 -
[188] - Quote
Behold the face of Faction Warfare!
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13927659
An unarmed, faction-fit Dram with a cloak.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2650
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 15:40:00 -
[189] - Quote
I just threw up inside my mouth a little, time to go brush my teeth.....
This is probably the most offensive thing I've ever seen in Faction Warfare, Dev's should strip players of their "pilots licenses" whenever they catch someone in such an abomination of a fit. This guy should never be allowed to fly Dram's again!
Thanks for the link, it'll certainly be saved and added to the information I'm providing to CCP regarding the speed tanking issue, this is now"Exhibit A" for sure! Surely Ytterbium, as a ship balancer, will have his stomach churned the way i do and double down on the plex NPC overhaul :) Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
219
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 16:17:00 -
[190] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I just threw up inside my mouth a little, time to go brush my teeth..... Bathroom's taken!
Better not give it to Ytter without being absolutely sure he knows what's what. Chances are he'll think you are advocating further nerfs to the Dram when it is merely a high profile instance of the hundreds of Vigils, Rifters, Condors et al. that make up the real issue .. that of farming/speed tanking.
|
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Saul Elsyn
Angels Of Prosperity
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 21:31:00 -
[191] - Quote
After a long hiatus... I'm back and thinking about returning to the Caldari militia... and I figure with a bit of experience with game modification and so forth I can add my two ISK,
Faction Warfare: Issues NPC Rebalancing and Tweaks
Before going into details about what I think should be done with NPCs I have a few comments IGÇÖd like to make about them and the design of factional warfare. Current mechanics revolve around the taking of complexes in hostile space to GÇÿadvanceGÇÖ your factionGÇÖs possession of hostile space. Taking a complex involves orbiting an object in space for a specific amount of time in order to GÇÿcaptureGÇÖ or GÇÿflipGÇÖ the complex.
From an in universe perspectiveGǪ what the heck is going on? Are they some sort of automated installation weGÇÖre capturing or what? IGÇÖd like a bit more of a reason to bother with them.
I do love the suggested post involving clearing the space around the complex of hostile npcs, and the appearance of a transport you must protect until the complex is captured. That would be an excellent solution to theGǪ rather arbitrary manner in which faction warfare players struggle for sovereignty.
From an out of universe perspective I can understand the idea behind the current mechanicsGǪ forcing a player to remain within a complex until itGÇÖs captured is a means of promoting pvp as they must stay there to take it even if an enemy militia pilot shows up.
This brings up the first question that should dictate how we think of NPC rebalancing and tweaking in Factional Warfare. That question is really rather obviousGǪ
Question: What is the purpose of NPC opposition in Complexes?
If NPC opposition in complexes are supposed to be farmableGǪ like mission npcs or other PvE combat, theyGÇÖre serving that role rather well. The problem with that is that it makes complex runners fit for PvE combat.
If NPC opposition in complexes is to provide a fight or actual defense in the absence of hostile players, then they need to be significantly changed.
Think of it as a round in a FPS multiplayer game. If you get on an empty serverGǪ thereGÇÖs no one there and nothing for you to doGǪ unless they have GÇÿbotsGÇÖ for you to kill while waiting for another player to appear. Bots act much, much different from the opponents you have in single player campaigns right? So shouldnGÇÖt these NPCs trying to keep you busy while waiting for an enemy militia member to show up be a lot different from mission running npcs?
The complaints about the EW ability of NPCs make me laughGǪ thereGÇÖs nothing wrong with EW in pvpGǪ so why canGÇÖt the NPCs wield EW as well. Our complaint is that their EW is either significantly more powerful or longer ranged then the same abilities we can wield. ThatGÇÖs a point worth making.
What should npcGÇÖs in faction warfare dungeons be like? Think newbie fit t1 ships with crap skills. IGÇÖll put down what the stats for a few of those ships would look like (these stats are derived from playing with EFTGǪ).
State Nihonoto GÇô Merlin Frigate used by the Caldari State A Combat Frigate of the Caldari State and will engage any hostile ship it detects in its patrol zone. Threat Level: High
Offenses GÇô Battery of 125mm Railguns with Antimatter ~ 34.9 DPS Cycle Time:2.69 seconds Optimal Range:4,500 meters Falloff Range:5,000 meters Signature:40 meters Tracking:0.08925 radians Damage per Hit:55 Kinetic, 39 Thermal
Defenses GÇô Standard Merlin with Rigging for Factional Resists and Shield Extender Shield Hitpoints:688 Shield Resistances:30% EM, 20% Thermal, 40% Kinetic, 75% Explosive Armor Hitpoints:350 Armor Resistances:50% EM, 45% Thermal, 25% Kinetic, 10% Explosive Hull Hitpoints:400 Hull Resistances:None
Electronic Warfare GÇô Really you expect a PvP frigate not to have Tackle? Warp Scrambling:Duration: 5 sec, 95% chance, Optimal: 7,500 meters, Warp Strength: -2 Stasis Webifier:Duration: 5 sec, 95% chance, Optimal: 10,000 meters, Speed: -50%
Targeting GÇô Standard Merlin Signature Radius:52 meters Attack Range:9,500 meters Attack Targets:1 Locked Targets:2 Strength:Gravimetic: 11 points
Movement GÇô Standard Merlin + Afterburner Orbital Range:4,500 meters Orbital Velocity:635 m/sec Max Velocity:660 m/sec
I think a lot of you have encountered Merlin frigates with similar fits on TQGǪ though they are usually performing much, much better than this ship. As for the 95% chance on the Scram and Web: Human error is reportedly around 2% so giving anything a 100% chance of tackling someone seems rather dumb to me. AdmittedlyGǪ IGÇÖve seen and youGÇÖve seen people fitting terribly setups, but we shouldnGÇÖt cater to idiots, right?
Federation Arcus GÇô Incursus Frigate used by the Gallente Federation A Combat Frigate of the Gallente Federation and will engage any hostile ship it detects in itGÇÖs patrol zone. Threat Level: High
Offenses GÇô Battery of Light Electron Blasters with Antimatter ~ 46.5 DPS Cycle Time:1.66 seconds Optimal Range:500 meters Falloff Range:1,500 meters Signature:40 meters Tracking:0.438 radians Damage per Hit:46 Kinetic, 33 Thermal
Defenses GÇô Standard Incursus with Rigging for Factional Resists Shield Hitpoints:400 Shield Resistances:0% EM, 20% Thermal, 40% Kinetic, 50% Explosive Armor Hitpoints:450 Armor Resistances:50% EM, 55% Thermal, 65% Kinetic, 10% Explosive Hull Hitpoints:500 Hull Resistances:None
Electronic Warfare GÇô Really you expect a PvP frigate not to have Tackle? Warp Scrambling:Duration: 5 sec, 95% chance, Optimal: 7,500 meters, Warp Strength: -2 Stasis Webifier:Duration: 5 sec, 95% chance, Optimal: 10,000 meters, Speed: -50%
Targeting GÇô Standard Incursus Signature Radius:42 meters Attack Range:2,000 meters Attack Targets:1 Locked Targets:2 Strength:Magnetometric: 9 points
Movement GÇô Standard Incursus + Afterburner Orbital Range:500 meters Orbital Velocity:530 m/sec Max Velocity:550 m/sec |
Saul Elsyn
Angels Of Prosperity
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 21:36:00 -
[192] - Quote
Federation Arcus GÇô Incursus Frigate used by the Gallente Federation A Combat Frigate of the Gallente Federation and will engage any hostile ship it detects in itGÇÖs patrol zone. Threat Level: High
Offenses GÇô Battery of Light Electron Blasters with Antimatter ~ 46.5 DPS Cycle Time:1.66 seconds Optimal Range:500 meters Falloff Range:1,500 meters Signature:40 meters Tracking:0.438 radians Damage per Hit:46 Kinetic, 33 Thermal
Defenses GÇô Standard Incursus with Rigging for Factional Resists Shield Hitpoints:400 Shield Resistances:0% EM, 20% Thermal, 40% Kinetic, 50% Explosive Armor Hitpoints:450 Armor Resistances:50% EM, 55% Thermal, 65% Kinetic, 10% Explosive Hull Hitpoints:500 Hull Resistances:None
Electronic Warfare GÇô Really you expect a PvP frigate not to have Tackle? Warp Scrambling:Duration: 5 sec, 95% chance, Optimal: 7,500 meters, Warp Strength: -2 Stasis Webifier:Duration: 5 sec, 95% chance, Optimal: 10,000 meters, Speed: -50%
Targeting GÇô Standard Incursus Signature Radius:42 meters Attack Range:2,000 meters Attack Targets:1 Locked Targets:2 Strength:Magnetometric: 9 points
Movement GÇô Standard Incursus + Afterburner Orbital Range:500 meters Orbital Velocity:530 m/sec Max Velocity:550 m/sec
It looks simple to meGǪ I mean the way inexperienced players pvp in most ships is that simpleGǪ orbit at optimal range and shoot until they blow up. Even the basic NPC AI is capable of that behavior. The difference between NPC performance in missions and PC performance is rather bizarre considering the nonsensical damage outputs and behaviors that the NPCs use in missions.
IGÇÖd suggest the developers try those stats aboveGǪ plug them into a SingularityGǪ have only one or two ships spawn at a minor complex and let us try itGǪ I mean why canGÇÖt it be so simple as sayingGǪ lets mimic PvP setups with our NPCs?
Of course their performance is badGǪ theyGÇÖre not capsuleers and they donGÇÖt have T2 trainingGǪ but their ship configurations is sensible at least, right? For a new capsuleer with just a few weeks of training these npcs would be a challenge, but not an insurmountable one. Plus, it would rapidly teach them what to expect from pvp combat.
If NPC ships are to act as GÇÿbotsGÇÖ to simulate bad and inexperienced pvpersGǪ we should get LP for their destruction as wellGǪ not much (for theses frigates IGÇÖd expect no more than 20 or 30 LP). At the same time an attack on them by non-militia affiliated players should have significant security and factional penaltiesGǪ plus they shouldnGÇÖt get LP for thatGǪ
From that starting pointGǪ IGÇÖll be digressing into alternative means of upgrading your systems and modifying the sovereignty mechanics.
1.Penalizing the price of items in the LP store causes player depression. Instead of modifying prices, it would be better to modify LP awards. This would also prevent players from GÇÿcashing outGÇÖ LP to surge their Tier and purchase items.
2.Upgrading a system should increase its defensibilityGǪ either by increasing NPC spawn strength, timers to take a complex in the system, or both. Defensive plexing should award LP directly to the system I-hub instead of the player or nothing at all.
3.If NPCs are treated as GÇÿbotsGÇÖ for players to compete againstGǪ why limit their presence to just complexes and missions? In upgraded systems, small NPC gate camps and patrols might exist. HellGǪ why would the empires limit their presence on the battlefield to sub-capitals? When a system is vulnerable to being takenGǪ spawn a significant NPC force including capitals to defend its sovereignty. Maybe tie it to the tier of the defending system.
4.New deadspace style complexes could be added where the focus is on destroying all of the hostile ships in the complex. The spawns for such deadspaces would be much smaller than traditional deadspace complexes due to the new NPC builds, but should be about as rewarding. Accessing a deadspace complex will also activate a local beacon, just like accessing other complexes.
Another point is that there needs to be a cosmetic change for Faction Warfare NPCsGǪ all FW NPCs should be represented with a grey crossGǪ in fact all NPCs that do not have a posted bounty from CONCORD should be grey for consistency.
I have more ideas but this is definitely a good start. |
Jermain Jackson
Black Dynasty
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 17:49:00 -
[193] - Quote
Ahw nice i see my fit made it to the headlines, not a smart move putting it out here you will get more of them now. Why people always gotta whine and cry about plex runners. Its way to earn good isk in game.. let it go stop complaining about it. Some people love to mine or Pi or whatever. others love the danger of low sec like me and become plex runners. Dont complain about i dont pvp you. what do u expect u jump on a 2month old toon with 2 mil sp, using a 40mil sp toon and u wanna call that a fair fight? dont make me laugh.. your lookin for an easy kill. if u didnt engage the noob in the first place he wouldnt have to run now would he. And then they say dont be in low sec then. why not? cause i choose not to get blown up easy and decide this makes better money then mining or w/e ive seen so far in game? Thats why EVE is suppose to be a Free world. Deal with it. Dont try to kill fresh born toons and try to call urself skilled. look for older players im sure they wont run. And no im not some alt This acctually is a main toon.
i mean... You dont see arm dealers in the front line of the war do you? they are in the warzone.. but they get the hell outta there when the fight gets to close.. picture me like that.. an arms dealer, i even like the sound of it
you keep throwing up, i'll keep kissing these billions. And when im rich enough and i buy a decent pvp toon.. i'll pvp all of ya it will be actually fun for me 2 at that point. even if i die.
and dont go posting new players arent suppose to earn that much cause ive heard that 1 be4 eve is a free world.. deal with it dont whine about it.
funny how they dont whine about protecting new players from toons that are years older.. skilled.. my *** |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2656
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 18:10:00 -
[194] - Quote
Jermain, plexes were not designed to be a farmed income source. They were designed to be a "come at me bro" PvP venue. The payouts were added only to incentivize their use, the intent is still PvP.
Missions, on the other hand, most certainly are designed to be the farmable resource in FW. In either situation, the intent is that pilots are at a PvP risk when they conduct these activities. I'm totally fine with people farming isk in FW, but it needs to be risky, and it needs to be in its proper context, which isn't the front-line mechanism for winning territorial control. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Dersen Lowery
Knavery Inc. StructureDamage
47
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 19:55:00 -
[195] - Quote
I'm not in faction warfare, and I certainly claim no expertise on the subject of PVP, but:
Take the above idea of having the warp-in near the button. Make the button an outpost. Have the faction NPCs wait to see what kind of ship comes in to take the plex, and have the NPCs undock from that outpost in a fleet designed to respond to that ship type. Is it a frigate in anything other than a baby plex? Send ships with launchers after it. Every faction has them (some are better than others, but that's a different problem, and one that CCP is addressing). Is it a ship appropriate to the class of plex? Send a small, hard-hitting crew out to try and hold the site until capsuleer help arrives.
I realize that I'm asking for a whole new subsystem here, but if the plex NPCs can react to the incoming enemy ship, even in the most rudimentary terms (frigate/not-frigate, or maybe slicing up responses by sig radius?) then CCP can tweak the NPCs to address not only this problem, but any other subsequent problems that come up with "win ships" farming plexes. |
Gevlin
Universal Might DSM FOUNDATION
171
|
Posted - 2012.07.13 01:49:00 -
[196] - Quote
was there ever a suggestion of instead of NPC at plexes but have an option for defending FW to "instant action" (teleport, FW hot drop , to plex) to allow limited number of players to defend the plex (ie 50% enemy currently in plex) allowing tackle and start defending the plex while the rest of the malitia runs the gates as reinforcements.? The Goons are Coming, The Goons are Coming Jita the April 28, Hulk a geddon April 29 for a month. The Best Tears are the Geifer's Tears. just hope the new crime watch system is in place by then.... oh the chaos will rain!!! |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
33
|
Posted - 2012.07.13 06:35:00 -
[197] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:was there ever a suggestion of instead of NPC at plexes but have an option for defending FW to "instant action" (teleport, FW hot drop , to plex) to allow limited number of players to defend the plex (ie 50% enemy currently in plex) allowing tackle and start defending the plex while the rest of the malitia runs the gates as reinforcements.?
I think you are on to a good idea. - But not as a teleport.
Jumpbridges as a system upgrade would have a similar effect. Enemy's could even camp them.
You could set up baits in the plexes and wait for a response.
Once you upgrade - they could spawn near the hub in each fully upgraded system allowing travel to any other fully upgraded system.
The more I think about it - the more of a win idea it is. +1 Dude.
Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2656
|
Posted - 2012.07.13 08:23:00 -
[198] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:
Jumpbridges as a system upgrade would have a similar effect. Enemy's could even camp them.
You could set up baits in the plexes and wait for a response.
Once you upgrade - they could spawn near the hub in each fully upgraded system allowing travel to any other fully upgraded system.
The more I think about it - the more of a win idea it is. +1 Dude.
I could just see some cocky plex-farmer orbiting a major in his faction-fitted dramiel and out of nowhere the outpost fires a cyno and a bunch of recon ships instantly appear. Pants would be soiled, I guaranteed you.... Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Kale Freeman
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
4
|
Posted - 2012.07.13 09:04:00 -
[199] - Quote
A proposal for a completely different plex mechanic
The Basic idea
You can't Offensive Plex unless you in a appropriate ship for the size plex. There are no rats that aggress players interfering with PvP. For both offensive and defensive plexing, if you are forced off the field your opponent can close your plex (but it doesnt close automatically) You can defensive plex in a cheapy ship
Offensive Plexing
Warp into the plex Shoot a structure (something that dies in less than 1 min if you have an appropriate sized ship for the plex, but something that you cant kill in a undersized ship) Once the structure explodes a friendly hauler arrives to pickup the cans from the destroyed structure. The hauler collects loot for 10min (or 15 or 20 depending on plex size / amount of loot to collect) If you move away from the structure (button) the hauler stops working (timer stops). If you come back onto grid, close to the structure (button) the hauler continues again. However, if the hauler is destroyed by the opposing militia then the plex closes with no rewards (and no gain to contested level). The hauler takes about 1 min to kill in an appropriate size pvp fit ship.
Defensive plexing
Warp into a plex. Approach the structure. Structure launches a minig ship. While you are are at the structure (button) the mining ship mines. Timer counts down (10,15,20 as normal) If you leave the button (or grid) the mining ships stops mining (timer stops) If you come back, it continues again. If the mining ship is destroyed by the opposing militia then the plex close with no change to contested level. The mining ship takes about 1min to kill in an appropriate sized pvp fit ship. |
Saul Elsyn
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.13 15:22:00 -
[200] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:
Jumpbridges as a system upgrade would have a similar effect. Enemy's could even camp them.
You could set up baits in the plexes and wait for a response.
Once you upgrade - they could spawn near the hub in each fully upgraded system allowing travel to any other fully upgraded system.
The more I think about it - the more of a win idea it is. +1 Dude.
I could just see some cocky plex-farmer orbiting a major in his faction-fitted dramiel and out of nowhere the outpost fires a cyno and a bunch of recon ships instantly appear. Pants would be soiled, I guaranteed you....
At the very least they could give us distress calls from complexes in the militia channel...
This is the Caldari Naval Station in Tama, we are under attack... repeat, we are under... *static* Deploying Cyno!
We know that the NPC navies have titans... how about CCP put one in the militia's home systems and use them to jump bridge us to combat zones. |
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2661
|
Posted - 2012.07.13 17:36:00 -
[201] - Quote
Saul Elsyn wrote: At the very least they could give us distress calls from complexes in the militia channel...
This is the Caldari Naval Station in Tama, we are under attack... repeat, we are under... *static* Deploying Cyno!
We know that the NPC navies have titans... how about CCP put one in the militia's home systems and use them to jump bridge us to combat zones.
I agree that the more information we have regarding who is attacking where, the better. Alerts for plexing would be a great conflict driver, and are perfectly in the spirit of Faction Warfare content. It's why our complexes and missions show up on the overview, its why we have the cool new 3D menu in our FW interface showing which systems are under attack.
The next logical step would be alerting players directly to specific plexing activity, so response times can be reduced even further. it's more fun and less of a grind to chase an attacker out of his plex than it is to defensively run it down, we want to reach the point of intervention, not clean up work after the attacker has nabbed his LP and ran. I know exactly how we can accomplish this, but for the details you'll have to wait for the CSM minutes to be released, there will be much more I can elaborate on once you guys see what CCP's been up to on their end. Sorry to tease, but you won't have to wait long, they'll be out very soon! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
55
|
Posted - 2012.07.13 23:24:00 -
[202] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: The next logical step would be alerting players directly to specific plexing activity, so response times can be reduced even further. it's more fun and less of a grind to chase an attacker out of his plex than it is to defensively run it down, we want to reach the point of intervention, not clean up work after the attacker has nabbed his LP and ran. I know exactly how we can accomplish this, but for the details you'll have to wait for the CSM minutes to be released, there will be much more I can elaborate on once you guys see what CCP's been up to on their end. Sorry to tease, but you won't have to wait long, they'll be out very soon!
This would need to be handled carefully, Sometimes local is empty when I open a plex sometimes not, I then expect or at least prepare for some form of fight and often I am even trying to provoke a fight by opening the plex that is the notification. Having everyone within a couple jumps swarm in would do little to encourage PVP.
That said if I remain alone in the plex for a period of time then perhaps this could be escalated to the militia interface say five minutes into plexing a minor longer for tougher plexes.
I would prefer an indication on the map rather than broadcasts in a channel that could end up as spam. Perhaps such intel should be restricted to systems local to the player so an element of roaming/patrolling is still required.
I still feel NPC rebalance is the key to the plex issue.
Minor plexes feel balanced. NPC resistance is light and approaches to within small weapon range or can be handled by a few drones. I do not feel they deter PVP and a wave can be dealt with within a minute.
The problem with the harder plexes is it become more worthwhile to speedtank rather than fight due to the increased NPC resistance, I can kill and tank the waves in but it takes longer increasing the time I am vulnerable to attack from both player and NPC (either I donGÇÖt mind but not together). If shield fit it attacks my primary form of defence and if armour tanked it completely strips my shield buffer and running active tanks put me under cap pressure before a PVP fight even occurs. Also the NPC engagement range can be from further out forcing me to leave the timer zone if not in a ship with decent DPS projection.
The aim should be for fight with NPCGÇÖs to be infrequent over the course of the timer and easily dealt with in an appropriate PVP ship.
NPCGÇÖs could be changed to spawn within the timer zone.
NPC resistance should lighter with fast tackle in Major plexes. webbbing and warp disruption maybe but no scrams as that would disrupt PVP fit ships.
Mixing faction militia NPCGÇÖs would introduce a third damage type encouraging omni tanking and specific PVE style high resistance fits would be less viable, DPS needs to be reduced accordingly as omni tanking is harder.
A specific end of plex wave with a value NPC ship that has to be destroyed I still feel could be the final piece to prevent speedtanking, If it takes an appropriate amount of DPS to deal with it. It could also be programmed to warp away if it receives a certain amount of damage unless pointed by the player encouraging players to fit points again promoting PVP fits. It could return after a time fully repped or the plex could just close and tough you lost your reward.
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Dynast
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
56
|
Posted - 2012.07.13 23:53:00 -
[203] - Quote
Consider putting the LP on the NPC rats guarding the plex, rather than the capture event. i.e. each time you pop one of the various State/Federation/etc NPCs, you get LP, and the total LP for all the waves of NPCs is roughly equivalent to current payouts. This would accomplish several things:
- Remove incentive for non-combat ships, speed tanking the plex alone would not be enough.
- Reward the pilots who participated the most in capturing the plex, rather than just whoever is there at the end.
- Make it easy to code fleet splitting of LPs (as with bounties) to reward pilots who are in fleet, but guarding the acceleration gate.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
492
|
Posted - 2012.07.14 03:23:00 -
[204] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: The next logical step would be alerting players directly to specific plexing activity, so response times can be reduced even further. it's more fun and less of a grind to chase an attacker out of his plex than it is to defensively run it down, we want to reach the point of intervention, not clean up work after the attacker has nabbed his LP and ran. I know exactly how we can accomplish this, but for the details you'll have to wait for the CSM minutes to be released, there will be much more I can elaborate on once you guys see what CCP's been up to on their end. Sorry to tease, but you won't have to wait long, they'll be out very soon!
This would need to be handled carefully, Sometimes local is empty when I open a plex sometimes not, I then expect or at least prepare for some form of fight and often I am even trying to provoke a fight by opening the plex that is the notification. Having everyone within a couple jumps swarm in would do little to encourage PVP.
I have to say plex fights where random people from both militias just show up are some of the best pvp fights I have ever been in. People in militia a few jumps away just all coming to a plex not knowing exaclty what to expect. Its great.
I really don't know what you mean. A notification system that pulls in random militia pilots would be awesome. Its long overdue.
As for the rest of your post I agree. Minors are pretty well balanced. The trick is to figure out how to make the bigger plexes balanced. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
55
|
Posted - 2012.07.14 08:21:00 -
[205] - Quote
I am not against the idea in principle and have supported your previous thread.
Cearain wrote: I have to say plex fights where random people from both militias just show up are some of the best pvp fights I have ever been in. People in militia a few jumps away just all coming to a plex not knowing exaclty what to expect. Its great.
I really don't know what you mean. A notification system that pulls in random militia pilots would be awesome. Its long overdue.
As for the rest of your post I agree. Minors are pretty well balanced. The trick is to figure out how to make the bigger plexes balanced.
This is true to an extent if both sides pile in but my fear is it will be used to blob single targets.
My point is only that it is quite possible to get pvp between well balanced forces in and around plexes. If I spend time dscanning a system judging ship types and who is in local even convoing fellow militia pilots then opening a plex to start a fight or following a target into a plex then I do not necessarily want three additional war targets suddenly appearing in local within 30seconds or even three allied pilots this may ruin good fights and promote small scale blobbing.
A defence should be scrambled. Defenders should not immediately be informed a major plex is opened it gives them almost 20 minutes to prepare a ship and get there (you could almost travel the entire warzone in this time) plus they may get there and find 10 other allies already chased the war target into hiding. Notification towards the end of the timer 5min to go as an example means that local fights can have already taken place that the plexer only has to hold out for a period of time and can only be engaged a few times by those within a few jumps.
Pilots should not be able to just remain docked up waiting for a notification then setting out to get PVP, keeping notifications to be within half a dozen jumps may encourage people to still roam/patrol to cover more ground. More people actively in space increases the chances of PVP.
It also has implications for a faction that has less numbers or holds fewer systems, with so much free intel it would become almost impossible to plex even the backwater systems, it becomes too easy to defend, I would suggest alerts are only received for systems at a certain contested percentage. 50% or even higher.
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Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
8
|
Posted - 2012.07.14 11:21:00 -
[206] - Quote
I had put this one on the other thread but appearently this thread is where the main conversation is done. So I'll post it also here. It adresses the alerting, plex alt and snowballing issues.
Here are my (wall of text) 2 cents on the subject:
I couldn't read all posts up to here but I've seen some very nice ideas. Some of them are blended within my suggestions below.
Station Lockouts:
All we wanted before inferno was to make occupancy of a system matter. If CCP removes station lockout completely from game we'll arrive back at old occupancy system. I think some sort of lockout must still be implemented.
Binding the station lockouts to level of ths system is a good idea. This way we have to keep spending LP/defending the system if we want to deny docking rights to an enemy. A tiered system like
L1=agent denial L2=services denial L3=Complete lockout looks ok.
Furhtermore I'd like to make following suggestion:
Make upgrade levels limited by the contest amount of the system. 0%-20% contested Upgradeable up to L5 20%-40% contested Upgradeable up to L4 40%-60% contested Upgradeable up to L3 60%-80% contested Upgradeable up to L2 80%-100% contested Upgradeable up to L1
Thus if you want to keep the level of your system at a certain value you need to defend it. Right now there is very little incentive to keep the level of a system high though. To change that:
To flip a system your warzone control level must be up to a certain tier.
If you control 0%-20% of warzone you need to have a minimum T1 warzone control to be able to flip a vulnerable system. If you control 20%-40% of warzone you need to have a minimum T2 warzone control to be able to flip a vulnerable system. If you control 40%-60% of warzone you need to have a minimum T3 warzone control to be able to flip a vulnerable system. If you control 60%-80% of warzone you need to have a minimum T4 warzone control to be able to flip a vulnerable system. If you control 80%-100% of warzone you need to have a minimum T5 warzone control to be able to flip a vulnerable system.
This way the more systems you control, the higher the upkeep becomes to be able to capture more systems. You'll need to keep levels of your systems high if you want to be able to continue capturing more systems, thus you'll need to do defensive plexing to be able to continue on offense.
Then modify defensive plexing. Make it so that a defender does have NO effect at all on a plex of its own faction. The timer can only be ran by enemies and counts back when there are no enemies in the plex. To decontest system you need to run plexes belonging to the opposite faction which begin spawning in a system once it becomes contested and despawn once the system is no longer contested.
Change minmatar rats to projectiles and caldari rats to hybrids. The playground must be evened out. Yes this will result in more speed tanking, which brings the next point.
As a final touch. Change the way to run down the counter. To run the counter one pilot needs to go in capturing range of button and interact with it for (insert RP reason here). Once the connection to bunker is established timer begins counting and the pilots warp drive turns off. To turn the warp drive back on the pilot needs to sever the connection, which results in stopping of the timer. Severing the connection can be done by just interacting with the button. It takes 100 seconds for the warp drive to re-initialize. Optionally during these 100 seconds the pilot also might get a %50 penalty on speed, though it would ruin kiting setups (Just don't sever the connection and you get no speed penalty). Running the timer all the way down and capturing plex does not involve this 100 seconds wait time.
So when you begin the timer you are dedicated to it. If nobody cares for defending the system you can get away with just speed tanking. If enemy shows up you cannot immediately warp off. You'll have to fight. So you better be prepared.
Caerain had an idea about alerting plexing presence. I believe this can be connected to the upgrade level of the system.
At L1 there will be no alerts. A L2 system wil alert if there are any offensive plexes open in system. On the FW tab these systems will have a different hue. When mouse hovers on the system normally there is only name. A L3 system will make a list of open plexes sizes in the system and put it below name of system on mouseover. A L4 will colorize those being actively run as green. A L5 system will give you plex timers.
For example Lets assume Amarr are offensive plexing in Auga. There are 2 minors and a med open and there is a slicer in minor and a Omen Navy Issue in Med.
If Auga were a L1 system it would be just another system on the FW map. If Auga were a L2 system its system color would turn from light blue to dark blue on FW map. (For defending side that is) If Auga were a L3 system, when you get your mouse over it you would see the name followed by minor, minor, medium If Auga were a L4 system, one of the minors on the list and the medium would turn green If Auga were a L5 system, you would get the timer information along with the sizes.
So if you want to have an information network going on you should at least have L2. To see if the plexes are actively being ran or not would require the system to be minimum L4.
Well...that would be all I guess. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
492
|
Posted - 2012.07.14 11:39:00 -
[207] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:I am not against the idea in principle and have supported your previous thread. Cearain wrote: I have to say plex fights where random people from both militias just show up are some of the best pvp fights I have ever been in. People in militia a few jumps away just all coming to a plex not knowing exaclty what to expect. Its great.
I really don't know what you mean. A notification system that pulls in random militia pilots would be awesome. Its long overdue.
As for the rest of your post I agree. Minors are pretty well balanced. The trick is to figure out how to make the bigger plexes balanced.
This is true to an extent if both sides pile in but my fear is it will be used to blob single targets. My point is only that it is quite possible to get pvp between well balanced forces in and around plexes. If I spend time dscanning a system judging ship types and who is in local even convoing fellow militia pilots then opening a plex to start a fight or following a target into a plex then I do not necessarily want three additional war targets suddenly appearing in local within 30seconds or even three allied pilots this may ruin good fights and promote small scale blobbing. A defence should be scrambled. Defenders should not immediately be informed a major plex is opened it gives them almost 20 minutes to prepare a ship and get there (you could almost travel the entire warzone in this time) plus they may get there and find 10 other allies already chased the war target into hiding. Notification towards the end of the timer 5min to go as an example means that local fights can have already taken place that the plexer only has to hold out for a period of time and can only be engaged a few times by those within a few jumps. Pilots should not be able to just remain docked up waiting for a notification then setting out to get PVP, keeping notifications to be within half a dozen jumps may encourage people to still roam/patrol to cover more ground. More people actively in space increases the chances of PVP. It also has implications for a faction that has less numbers or holds fewer systems, with so much free intel it would become almost impossible to plex even the backwater systems, it becomes too easy to defend, I would suggest alerts are only received for systems at a certain contested percentage. 50% or even higher.
I agree with your concerns but keep in mind:
1) I was thinking both sides would get the notifications. Hopefully it won't just be the defenders.
2) Also keep in mind plexes will be entered and exited constantly thoughtout the war zone. So if the militia wants to send all their forces to one pilot in a plex they can. But that will not be a very efficient use of their resources. The better use would be to just send what is necessary for each plex. Plus you will get people who aren't on coms just randomly rolling in and out of plexes.
I do imagine though that whereas i will usually get about 1-2 defenders in dal when i run a plex, I will get many more after this change (assumign ccp does it). I think I will need to pop open a plex in a farther back water like ebolfer or ardar to get 1-2 players coming in.
So I think it will tend to spread the war zone out. From the amarr minmatar perspective - If you want a big gang then run a plex in kourmonen or kamela. if you want a medium sized gang I think dal or vard would be good. If you want smaller scale stuff then minmatar space up past frerstorn. Of course you never know what you get for any given plex because that is eve but in general I think this sort of pattern will develop.
But yeah I agree they should keep an eye on it. I don't see how it could go wrong, but if it causes some problems hopefully they will tweak it. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Justin Cody
Tri-gun Lost Obsession
25
|
Posted - 2012.07.14 22:30:00 -
[208] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright folks, as stated in the latest FW blog, there are certain points in Factional Warfare that still need to be looked at after Inferno. One of these are the NPCs; we all have grown to hate them as they jam you non stop for 5 minutes, or laugh at them when speed tanking them while capturing a complex. So, let's try to find ways to make them interesting here. We have some ideas floating around, one of them is to:
- Upgrade their AI with target switching mechanics - just like Sleepers and Incursion Sanshas
- Revamp their attributes to be more on par with PvP fits, while still allowing new pilots to compete (FW barrier of entry is supposed to be low)
- Cut their respawn numbers - they should be used as an activity if there is no PvP going around, but not impair PvP when it is happening
- Possibly use them to assist a losing faction; for example, have tougher NPCs than usual spawn for a faction with less solar systems, or attack opposing members at gates (not neutrals)
Remember, all of these are just high-pitch ideas at the moment that are posted here to get your constructive input and a discussion going. So stay cool and remember, the spice must flow. Another point where your feedback would be most appreciated is regarding your own experience facing them as they are right now:
- Think a FW NPC is plain broken, crap or annoying? Post its exact name here, and explain why and what. Again, please remember, this discussion is about FW NPCs, not mission / deadspace / Incursion / Sleepers or whatever (we know there are a lot of them to fix in other features as well, but let's not get lost here shall we?).
- What do you think about Navy NPCs when you go to enemy high-security space? What would you do about that?
- What about the standing mechanic that govern NPC attack behavior? When do you feel they should engage you? Low standings? Capturing a complex?
Thanks for your feedback.
Force the room to be cleared of npc's in order to complete the capture of the beacon. You already do this in missions for players to complete objectives. It is a simple if/then statement. Easy fix.
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Atfal alNudjum
Black Watch Guard
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 12:29:00 -
[209] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: What I want everyone asking themselves is this - if I could flush the inside of the plex out and replace it with anything in the world, what do I want inside? NPC's ? No NPC's ? Incursion-style rats that you HAVE to kill, turning FW sov into a race to complete mini-incursions? Or simply a dash of incurion AI into some new custom NPC's that don't FORCE PvE, but still cut out the alt-farming?
I just hate to see us limit ourselves by focusing too much on the must-kill-all-rats issue, when that was only one quick fix and there's other more elegant solutions that push FW sovereignty towards PvP, not PvE.
The "Holy Grail" solution would a sov system that doesnt require PvE (or button orbiting) at all - and is heavily PvP centric. But to achieve that there needs to be more brainstorming (don't just rely on CCP to come up with that for you), or more contemplation and consensus with regards existing ideas.
TL,DR: Instead of waiting for the better idea to be developed, WE should be developing the better idea *right now* instead of settling for yet another band-aid. Winter is a golden window to get some major work done on plexes, lets not let it go to waste!
If we can't come up with something better to pitch to CCP, we'll be left with an upgraded PvE-based Sov system, plain and simple. If thats what everyone wants, great, they've said they can beef up the PvE aspect. But if thats NOT what you all envision for the feature, we gotta pull together and nail down the alternative now, or forever hold our peace.
Han's...haven't read ahead to the later posts but personally I think if there was a way to do the following it would be good for FW;
A) Remove rats from a plexes all together - Alternative, not sure on what would be the best option here but see suggestions below.
B) Make all FW missions able to be completed by both sides. A defender should be able to shut down an open plex without having to shoot their own side. Seeing as missions are supposed to be PvE then make teh defender hold the site (button run if they have to)
C) Combine 1 & 2 together. All missions become the plex, defenders and attackers have to fight to win it, each with some form of closing it down if not stopped. Mission level dictates ship types and sizes allowed. eg Lvl 1 Agent -> Minor Restricted - T1 Frig Only (Non faction) & possibly destroyers Lvl 2 Agent -> Minor Plex - All Frigates & Destroyers Lvl 3 Agent -> Medium Plex - As per current medium Lvl 4 Agent -> Major Plex - As per current Major Lvl 5 Agent -> Major Unrestricted (possibly allow cynos for big fleet fights )
I like the transport option which does, I think, also lend itself to something like option C. If you incorporate dust FPS games into it, then each game would spawn a plex for the duration of the game. Button / Transport in plex, sides have to hold it...If it is contested then no orbital bombardment available for the guys on the ground. If it isnt contested, Dust guys can call in fire..These types of plexes could be broadcast on both militia channels and the size of the game dictates the size of the plex, eg 4v4 = minor, 8v8 = medium, 16v16 = Major, 32+ a side Unrestricted.
Just thoughts.
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Dynast
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
57
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 00:24:00 -
[210] - Quote
One other thing to be mindful of, vulnerable systems should not grant LP for further offensive plexing. Right now it's more advantageous to leave a system vulnerable than to flip it, it's an infinite LP faucet, and the result is showing in Gallente/Caldari FW, we have several dozen vulnerable systems and nobody flips them unless they're doing an organized LP dump. While the organized LP dumps are probably a good thing (they reward organization and teamwork), the tons of systems being left vulnerable and perma-farmed are not. |
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
327
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 17:16:00 -
[211] - Quote
Whatever CCP comes up with for NPC balance, future plexing mechanics, whatever... I hope they follow the principles below:
GÇó Offensive plexing should be rewarded more than defensive plexing because offensive plexing drives conflict. (Defensive plexing is a reaction to offensive plexing.) GÇó Plexes (both offensive and defensive) should be run most efficiently by the appropriately sized ship. (Frigs/Dessies for L1, Cruisers/T2 frigs for L2, BC/T2 cruisers for L3, BS/T2 BCs for L4) GÇóPlex mechanics should encourage pvp, not pve.
Potential Solutions:
GÇó (Much) higher LP rewards for offensive plexing. GÇó Timer slows down if appropriately sized ship is not running the button. Ex: If frigate is on timer of L4 plex, then plex timer should slow down by a factor of eight. GÇó Timer move toward baseline if no ship is close to button. This enables players interested in pvp to run off those not interested in pvp and still be successful. (This has been discussed extensively elsewhere). |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
499
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 19:14:00 -
[212] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Whatever CCP comes up with for NPC balance, future plexing mechanics, whatever... I hope they follow the principles below:
GÇó Offensive plexing should be rewarded more than defensive plexing because offensive plexing drives conflict. (Defensive plexing is a reaction to offensive plexing.) GÇó Plexes (both offensive and defensive) should be run most efficiently by the appropriately sized ship. (Frigs/Dessies for L1, Cruisers/T2 frigs for L2, BC/T2 cruisers for L3, BS/T2 BCs for L4) GÇóPlex mechanics should encourage pvp, not pve.
Potential Solutions:
GÇó (Much) higher LP rewards for offensive plexing. GÇó Timer slows down if appropriately sized ship is not running the button. Ex: If frigate is on timer of L4 plex, then plex timer should slow down by a factor of eight. GÇó Timer move toward baseline if no ship is close to button. This enables players interested in pvp to run off those not interested in pvp and still be successful. (This has been discussed extensively elsewhere).
I agree with you, except the whole "appropriate sized" ship stuff. If i want to fight a cruiser in a frigate(s) or a bc in a cruiser(s) i should be able to. I shouldn't be punished. Typically it will be several frigates against a cruiser or a few cruisers against a bc. But whatever, I love those sorts of fights.
Until we see that amarr can actually fight their way back then I would say we shouldn't even consider any lp for defensive plexing. At this point I think ccp should consider giving missions a slight nerf to the lp payout as well. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
327
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 20:05:00 -
[213] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
I agree with you, except the whole "appropriate sized" ship stuff. If i want to fight a cruiser in a frigate(s) or a bc in a cruiser(s) i should be able to. I shouldn't be punished. Typically it will be several frigates against a cruiser or a few cruisers against a bc. But whatever, I love those sorts of fights.
Until we see that amarr can actually fight their way back then I would say we shouldn't even consider any lp for defensive plexing. At this point I think ccp should consider giving missions a slight nerf to the lp payout as well.
I did say that completing a plex should be done most efficiently with an appropriately sized ship. Current plex size restrictions would still hold. You could fight with destroyers in any size plex. This thread is not about FW missions. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
501
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 14:01:00 -
[214] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:
I agree with you, except the whole "appropriate sized" ship stuff. If i want to fight a cruiser in a frigate(s) or a bc in a cruiser(s) i should be able to. I shouldn't be punished. Typically it will be several frigates against a cruiser or a few cruisers against a bc. But whatever, I love those sorts of fights.
Until we see that amarr can actually fight their way back then I would say we shouldn't even consider any lp for defensive plexing. At this point I think ccp should consider giving missions a slight nerf to the lp payout as well.
I did say that completing a plex should be done most efficiently with an appropriately sized ship. Current plex size restrictions would still hold. You could fight with destroyers in any size plex. This thread is not about FW missions.
Right but if you try to run a say a medium plex with 3 destroyers instead of 1 cruiser the timer would take longer under your proposal.
The thread is about plexing. If we "nerf" plexing so you can't run them in frigates you are indirectly buffing missions. Its important that ccp understand that connection, or their whole goal of making plexing pay better than missions won't be achieved. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
501
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 14:10:00 -
[215] - Quote
I tried running some majors with a cyclone asb fit pvp ship. I wanted to see if it was viable to do them in a pvp ship post ewar removal.
Conclusion: No go even on the closed plexes. I was using cap boosters and without the ability to dock and resupply my cargo it is not really doable. Its extremely unlikely I would take a fight in a major plex even if the enemy ship was quite a bit smaller. Its just stupid to think people will actually pvp in these things with the rats doing so much damage. Unfortunately for pvp I am limitted to the medium and minor plexes.
I run medium plexes in a faction cruisers. They are still not doable in most of my regular t1 pvp cruisers. (although yes they can be done in a caracal) Even with the faction cruisers if the spawn has continued to build up it is a no go.
Minor plexes are fine. No real complaints there.
It does appear that the elimination of ewar has allowed amarr to speed tank major plexes in gunnless frigates.
I still recomend the following:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1463058#post1463058 Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2688
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 17:24:00 -
[216] - Quote
Cearain wrote:I tried running some majors with a cyclone asb fit pvp ship. I wanted to see if it was viable to do them in a pvp ship post ewar removal. Conclusion: No go even on the closed plexes. I was using cap boosters too fast and without the ability to dock and resupply my cargo it is not really doable. Its extremely unlikely I would take a fight in a major plex even if the enemy ship was quite a bit smaller. Its just stupid to think people will actually pvp in these things with the rats doing so much damage. Unfortunately for pvp I am limitted to the medium and minor plexes. I run medium plexes in a faction cruisers. They are still not doable in most of my regular t1 pvp cruisers. (although yes they can be done in a caracal) Even with the faction cruisers if the spawn has continued to build up it is a no go. Minor plexes are fine. No real complaints there. It does appear that the elimination of ewar has allowed amarr to speed tank major plexes in gunnless frigates. I still recomend the following: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1463058#post1463058
Awesome work doing the research on the plex rats, Cearain - this kind of field testing is very helpful as we approach the time when the developers resume working on the NPC's. I totally agree the DPS on field is just too much, this is clearly a holdover from old-school mission design where you tanked a whole room full of red crosses, and it needs to go away in order to make plexes PvP-friendly. I think we need fewer rats, less incoming DPS, and they should be easy to kill - but could perhaps have a scram or a web and be fairly fast, to pose a threat to those running the plex.
Subsequent spawns should be similar- not too DPS heavy, just enough of a threat that you want to quickly dispatch them and go back to defending against players. The goal as I see it is to create content that will kill if you're AFK or unarmed, but be easy to handle in a wide variety of conventional Tech 1 PvP ships (according to plex size). We hit those two points, and we'll be light years ahead of where we stand now.
Theres probably another couple weeks before they get fully underway with the winter expansion, everyone's trickling back in from summer vacation. Minutes should be out at the beginning of the week, so everyone has plenty of time to read up, see where everything stands, and chime in with your feedback early in the process. Thanks to everyone who's been patient and kept up all the contributions in the meantime! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
507
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 17:39:00 -
[217] - Quote
The other thing they may want to consider is only having the rats spawn as the timer runs.
It seems that once triggered the rats keep spawning even if no one is in the plex. Often I will get to these plexes that have no time off the timer but several spawns of angry red crosses. When this happens even the mediums are not doable in a faction cruiser - at least not if you plan on fighting with it.
As far as scrams and webs on the npcs I think that will cause problems. Especially if you mean a scram that shuts off your mwd. The webs also would really kill most solo pvp fits. Unless of course the rats stop attacking when an enemy comes in. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2688
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 17:45:00 -
[218] - Quote
Just out of curiosity, have any of you played the Dust beta? There's some game play there involving the capturing of objectives that I could see applying to plex design, as far as breaking up the single-button-orbit monotony. I can't really explain exact what I'm referring to exactly cause its NDA, unless you're also in the Dust beta (in which case you should private convo me some time if you have any thoughts) - but
Get ahold of me if any of you guys are testing Dust and we brainstorm some more, if you've been playing you know what I'm referring to. If not, you guys SHOULD run and grab the Dust beta if you have a PS3, its very fun! They have a mercenary pack you can buy for instant access if you've been having trouble waiting for a key, you get all the money back in Aurum after the beta resets and becomes official, so its worth it in my humble opinion. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
333
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 17:48:00 -
[219] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Right but if you try to run a say a medium plex with 3 destroyers instead of 1 cruiser the timer would take longer under your proposal.
The thread is about plexing. If we "nerf" plexing so you can't run them in frigates you are indirectly buffing missions. Its important that ccp understand that connection, or their whole goal of making plexing pay better than missions won't be achieved. There is an idea ealier in this thread where you would assign points to ships.
BS/T2 BC = 8 BC/T2 Cruiser = 4 Cruiser/T2 frig = 2 Frig/Dessie = 1
and points to Plexes: L1,L2,L3,L4 = 1,2,4,8 respectively
Plex timer rate = max(1x, Plex Level/sum(ship points)).
So two dessies could run a medium as efficiently as one cruiser. Seems fair to me.
Likewise, you could scale the plex LP payouts exponentially as well so that 8 frigs running a major L4 would receive the same LP payout as one frig running a minor.
IMO, that fixes plex exploitation (especially once they rebalance the NPCs for winter expansion).
Adding the "timer reset to zero" option would really go a long way towards helping pvp'ers defend plexes against pve'ers as well.
Missions - Gimme the damn poison pill option for griefing missions and the exploitation of missions by PVE-centric farmers will be removed from the game! The risk would be on scale with the potential reward. They could also decide to lower mission LP, or perhaps have mission completion count toward occupancy. Whatever. I'm in the minority, but I like moving about in enemy low sec running missions more than I like orbiting buttons to earn isk. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2688
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 17:49:00 -
[220] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Unless of course the rats stop attacking when an enemy comes in.
This would be MONEY if they could pull it off. I mean it makes sense - ever notice in action movies when the leaders of two opposing armies clash in the middle of a war? the grunts clear out, and give the two champions space to duel it out. I'd love to see rats that did this as well. That way you'd only be PvE-ing when there was no one around.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
19
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 18:13:00 -
[221] - Quote
I havn't read anything here, just want to mention that first.
I say make FW rats point. would make it harder to farm plexes while avoiding pvp.
Ohh and make them not attack neutrals.. Being attacked by the Caldari navy when you're actually in good standing with it and not a part of any militia is kinda silly. |
Dynast
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
64
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 23:43:00 -
[222] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:I havn't read anything here, just want to mention that first.
I say make FW rats point. would make it harder to farm plexes while avoiding pvp.
Ohh and make them not attack neutrals.. Being attacked by the Caldari navy when you're actually in good standing with it and not a part of any militia is kinda silly. Actually it's absolutely appropriate, you have no business in a military installation, and you sure as hell have no business shooting FW pod pilots in their own military installation. The use of standings by FW Plex NPCs should be removed entirely, it's not appropriate to the setting. It shouldn't matter how good your standings are, if you're not part of the appropriate militia you get shot.
There's increasing militia use of fiddled standings (sometimes at corp level) to make FW plex rats ignore pilots. The outcome is hostile militia pilots "capturing" a plex while the Empire military just sits there on it's ass. |
Atfal alNudjum
Black Watch Guard
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 00:30:00 -
[223] - Quote
Just to re-iterate what players have been saying about the current state of affairs within FW. This is a conversation that occurred in local after a minmatar FW player's CNI was killed.
[08:24:36] EVE System > Channel changed to Local : Haras [08:24:40] Minmatar Player > gf [08:24:52] Amarr Player > Sorry mate I brought something a little bigger this time [08:24:58] Minmatar Player > I don't really care [08:25:03] Minmatar Player > I still make 1b/h per char [08:25:04] Minmatar Player > and I run 3 [08:25:40] Amarr Player > Really? I thought you were alright. Apparently I was wrong [08:25:59] Minmatar Player > All I care about is milking as much isk I can untill ccp patches this broken ****
Not players names have been replaced rather than place individuals in the spotlight.
So still making 1 bill / hour per character, incursions were nerfed for this kind of isk output...fixing sooner rather than later would be good. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
19
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 01:43:00 -
[224] - Quote
Dynast wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:I havn't read anything here, just want to mention that first.
I say make FW rats point. would make it harder to farm plexes while avoiding pvp.
Ohh and make them not attack neutrals.. Being attacked by the Caldari navy when you're actually in good standing with it and not a part of any militia is kinda silly. Actually it's absolutely appropriate, you have no business in a military installation, and you sure as hell have no business shooting FW pod pilots in their own military installation. The use of standings by FW Plex NPCs should be removed entirely, it's not appropriate to the setting. It shouldn't matter how good your standings are, if you're not part of the appropriate militia you get shot. There's increasing militia use of fiddled standings (sometimes at corp level) to make FW plex rats ignore pilots. The outcome is hostile militia pilots "capturing" a plex while the Empire military just sits there on it's ass. Though really, this too could be fixed by requiring the rats to be killed to cap the plex.
TBH i don't really care about the rats.
All i want is the point thing because its way to easy to farm plexes with no risk.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
509
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 13:50:00 -
[225] - Quote
Atfal alNudjum wrote:Just to re-iterate what players have been saying about the current state of affairs within FW. This is a conversation that occurred in local after a minmatar FW player's CNI was killed.
[08:24:36] EVE System > Channel changed to Local : Haras [08:24:40] Minmatar Player > gf [08:24:52] Amarr Player > Sorry mate I brought something a little bigger this time [08:24:58] Minmatar Player > I don't really care [08:25:03] Minmatar Player > I still make 1b/h per char [08:25:04] Minmatar Player > and I run 3 [08:25:40] Amarr Player > Really? I thought you were alright. Apparently I was wrong [08:25:59] Minmatar Player > All I care about is milking as much isk I can untill ccp patches this broken ****
Not players names have been replaced rather than place individuals in the spotlight.
So still making 1 bill / hour per character, incursions were nerfed for this kind of isk output...fixing sooner rather than later would be good.
I think its dangerous to compare plexing to a pve activity like incursions. At least how plexing should be. Mainly it was the high sec incursions that were the problem.
Also I think there is a bit of bs going on about his income. If you want a higher than say 4-5k per lp then you have to spend quite a bit of time trading.
I don't want the rewards changed. I want the mechanics changed so that when you enter a plex more often than not you will have a pvp fight and maybe even 2 or 3 fights per plex. If they do that then the rewards are not too much at all.
Plexing should be something such that if you are medium at pvp you can pretty much cover your losses. If you are really good at pvp you can cover your losses and even make some profit. If you are bad a pvp you won't cover your losses and will have to use alternate income to cover your losses until you learn to be good a pvp.
So its not really the rewards that are too much its the fact that you can earn them with no pvp.
If however they do make plexign more pvp they will have to nerf missions. Cut mission lp by 30-50%. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cardano Firesnake
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
33
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 05:34:00 -
[226] - Quote
To give a new dimension to Eve, I think it would be excellent to create more interaction between PVP and PVE.
Players should have the possibility to create missions in the NPC Corporations. Agents could give these missions as they give level 1 to 4 mission now.
A character that have done missions for a corporation receive standings and Loyalty Points.
With these LP he can buy items.
But imagine that he could use it to create missions. A level 1 mission cost 2000 LP and a Level 4 50000 LP for example. The type of mission would depend of the corporation, but the player that create it should have lot of possibilities to customize it with NPC escort, type of ship expected etc... All these missions should have a PVP aspect like going in 0,0, or low sec, or factional warfare aspect etc.
If the mission is a success the character could double his LP, but lose all if it is a fail. He could never do the mission himself.
We can also imagine NPC mission like courrier that could be created by trader player to avoid them the boring freighter trips. (with all the risk of an autopilot move of freight)
Loyalty Points could be use to create NPC Bounties... Imagine a player hunted bye the member of an NPC corporation... |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 09:22:00 -
[227] - Quote
Is it possible to make LP's delayed like in incursions?. Make pilots gain LP tokens and LP is only awarded when the system falls/decontests
Actually I believe I explained this in another post a year ago:
Offensive side begins plexing. As the system reaches 50% the LP token valve is turned on. From that point on both sides try to get the system to 0% or 100% respectively. Each plex gives some LP tokens (Both defensive and offensive). Actual LP is only then awarded when the system falls/decontests. |
RangerGord
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services The Possum Lodge
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 23:19:00 -
[228] - Quote
I know so far a bulk of this thread has been about FW NPCs, but can regular NPCs at least be required to follow ship fitting rules? like seeing 9 turrets and cruise missiles and defender missiles coming off a Raven... if I can't fit 11 highs on any ship they shouldn't be able to either.
This problem filters all the way down to even the frigate NPCs, of which some have so many turret models enveloping their ships you can't single out exactly how many of each turret they actually have (I've got a great picture of a Minmatar faction Breacher, but can't find it at the moment). |
RangerGord
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services The Possum Lodge
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 23:22:00 -
[229] - Quote
Oh, and this is also the same problem with Incursion NPCs, they (even the frigates) can do everything all at once as if they have too many modules fit/active at the same time. They fly thousands of meters a sec, have huge omni tanks, huge omni damage, vast amounts of ewar, and they never run out of cap. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
23
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 04:19:00 -
[230] - Quote
1. Make some of the frigs web for the love of all thats holy. Being able to do major plexes in a frig with no guns is completely stupid and completely fucks up the Risk/rewards ratio
2. Make is harder to do the plexes without risk. Right now we have a ton of players using stabbed no gun t1 frigs that grind the plexes all day long with no risk what so ever. The risk/reward ratio is completely ****** up, you can get billions every week with a bloody 2 week old alt. I don't know what you should do about this, make the rats point, remove the accel gates or move the capture points closer to the warp in.. I don't know i'm not a dev but you need to do something
Doing FW should not be risk free.. It is a PVP activity, not a carebear grind. As it is you can do it without any risk with no effort what so ever.
FW is a PVP activity FFS.. |
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Cheekybiatch
Dark-Rising
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 01:11:00 -
[231] - Quote
Like it but no ewar please. |
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
The Forsworn Protectorate
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 19:12:00 -
[232] - Quote
Okay FW is totaly broken, everyone fears the minmatar farming armada and CCP does.... nothing. First step it would be to end this farmfest and then looking at what can be done. How long will this farmfest go on? How many months? That is totaly weird. Give a fast fix that rats should be killed in plexes so that we have a fast problem fixing and after that we can improve more. But actually fw is completely broken, minnies making 1b per day and it cannot get worse. FAST FIX NEEDED! |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
387
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 20:23:00 -
[233] - Quote
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:Okay FW is totaly broken, everyone fears the minmatar farming armada Fearing an army of unfit ships....
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Thaddeus Rees
Armored Core Strategies
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 20:33:00 -
[234] - Quote
Ok, so I've spent quite a bit more time in FW than I had when I posted before, and I believe people are correct in saying that completely removing the NPC's is not the answer.
I can't say what the final solution is, but there is something that is certain - if NPC's are to stay, they must all be equally tankable. I am referring here to the number of missiles in caldari plexes that can't be speed tanked in the same way as gallente plexes.
Also, and perhaps most importantly - make it so that plexers have to kill the rats. I am sick to death of chasing down caldari plexers only to find they have two warp core stabs on. (I could not even count how many have warped out in flames with a scram on them.)
Making it so that the rats must be killed, would prevent speed tanking in plexed ships with no thought to combat efficiency, thus reducing the feesability for using warp core stabs.
(Also, couldn't you make it so that warp core stabs stop you from being able to target anything? ) |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
206
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 06:48:00 -
[235] - Quote
Thaddeus Rees wrote:Ok, so I've spent quite a bit more time in FW than I had when I posted before, and I believe people are correct in saying that completely removing the NPC's is not the answer. I can't say what the final solution is, but there is something that is certain - if NPC's are to stay, they must all be equally tankable. I am referring here to the number of missiles in caldari plexes that can't be speed tanked in the same way as gallente plexes. Also, and perhaps most importantly - make it so that plexers have to kill the rats. I am sick to death of chasing down caldari plexers only to find they have two warp core stabs on. (I could not even count how many have warped out in flames with a scram on them.) Making it so that the rats must be killed, would prevent speed tanking in stabbed plexing ships with no thought to combat effectiveness, thus reducing the feesability for using warp core stabs. (Also, couldn't you make it so that warp core stabs stop you from being able to target anything? )
I do not like the idea that NPC is the only defence, there should be some reason for players to defend. Anyway if you remove all npc and players can be with pvp fitted ship does not change the fact that they escape too if you chase them away with too power full ship.
NPC is not the solution or the problem, there should be some reason/reward to chase enemy away or kill them and take the plex they started.
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
584
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 13:33:00 -
[236] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:Okay FW is totaly broken, everyone fears the minmatar farming armada Fearing an army of unfit ships....
Its how you win this war - you know destroy your enemies will!!!! Look how many people fear them so much they can only think to join them. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Mortromain
PALADIN IMPERATOR
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 14:00:00 -
[237] - Quote
i don't know if this has been said (too many pages for me) :
first, i agree with the fact that you should have to kill all npc's to capture a plex, it forbid speed tanking a plex. i think you should remove the timer too, just make them captured by NPC killing, right now, even if you kill the npc's, you have little interest in being with a fleet when plexing and ithat is not good if you want to promote fleet fights.
I would not recommend to enhance the NPC's AI, switching targets will force people to plex in pve fits (like with incursions), and people in PvE fits will avoid PvP fights. I think you should also promote farmer hunting, give reward to people who defend plexes.
For example, when an attacker leave a plex without capturing it, put a 5 min timer (active when a defender is present) to reset the plex and give a reward to the defender.
And please give reward to defensive plexing, i want to defend my faction territory, but i need to replace my ships too.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2776
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 14:28:00 -
[238] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote: I do not like the idea that NPC is the only defence, there should be some reason for players to defend. Anyway if you remove all npc and players can be with pvp fitted ship does not change the fact that they escape too if you chase them away with too power full ship.
NPC is not the solution or the problem, there should be some reason/reward to chase enemy away or kill them and take the plex they started.
QFT. I fully support balancing NPC's should they remain in the plexing system, the feedback has been spot on about balancing tankability and DPS levels, but Bad Messenger is spot on here.
In the end, whether you have NPC's dictating ship types or not, this does not address the core issue of incentivizing two players fighting to the death over that plex to begin with. We can hold guns to people's heads and force them to fly whatever ship we want using the NPC AI, or we can give players enough of a reason to stand their ground and not run away all the time. Personally I think the latter of the two is more important.
How can we incentivize PvP in the plexes over constantly running away? Lots of ways. We can give players more visibilty, making plexers easier to locate and engage, so hiding your activity is much more difficult. We can address the fact that defensive plexing is an unpaid boring chore, effectively rendering half of all plexes undesirable as an activity to participate in. We can shorten the distance between the warp-in and the capture point, increasing the risk players take on and making that risk a PvP risk rather than a PvE risk. We can have timer progress slowly roll back when plexes are unoccupied, making it so players that bounce all the time whenever someone comes after them end up neither profiting nor contributing to the warzone.
Yes, this is a thread focused on the NPC balance itself, but Bad Messenger makes an outstanding point that even if you had no NPC's regulating fits at all, if the motivation is there to complete the plex (either offensively or defensively) and there is little reward in running away constantly, players will bring the fit they need to win against the PvP threat anyways. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
584
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 14:59:00 -
[239] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: We can address the fact that defensive plexing is an unpaid boring chore, effectively rendering half of all plexes undesirable as an activity to participate in.
All good stuff except the above. Giving rewards for plexing will not make it a pvp activity. I hope we have learned this lesson from inferno.
There are numerous reasons why no direct reward for d-plexing is a good plan. Including encouraging pvp and allowing the smaller militia to establish a foothold. Giving rewards just does the opposite. It entrenches the winning team and it gives people a reason to stay docked while the enemy captures an offensive plex instead of fighting them for it. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2781
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 15:34:00 -
[240] - Quote
Cearain wrote: There are numerous reasons why no direct reward for d-plexing is a good plan. Including encouraging pvp and allowing the smaller militia to establish a foothold. Giving rewards just does the opposite. It entrenches the winning team and it gives people a reason to stay docked while the enemy captures an offensive plex instead of fighting them for it.
Well, there is theory, and there's practice. I'll shelve theory for a second, and I'll even shelve suggesting a solution for one moment. Let's simply talk about some problems that are emerging on the server.
The bottom line is that defensive plexing in its current form is nearly 100% undesirable. The profit is purely in offensive plexing, which means that for the dominant militia, there's more incentive in allowing the enemy to plex your system without resistance, so you can turn around and profit on the takeback. The winning militia is farming the underdog however you slice it, and to resist this advantage we have the nearly absurd situation of militias stopping at the point of taking space because it hands more money to the enemy.
The problem you fear is already taking place - pilots stay docked when the enemy comes to plex their system because its more profitable to plex once you've lost your space and are taking it back. Refusing to put up resistance to offensive plexing efforts is by definition an enormous missed PvP opportunity. As I said at the CSM summit, this leads to deep frustration for FC's that want just want to fight a straight-up war, because pilots would rather sit in station, let the enemy take a system (or even help them bust the bunker) just so they can profit later, or in a diferent system. This is the opposite of encouraging conflict, its encouraging players to ignore each other for financial gain.
The whole mess of militias enrolling plexing alts to break the bunker busting "hostage" situation where vulnerable systems refuse to get flipped, the mess of pilots refusing to defend their space except in edge cases where you have an alliance with their ships stashed there, the mess of it being more profitable to ignore an attacker so you can attack yourself (and even there, efficiency encourages you to evade PvP offensively as well), none of this is providing the incentive for a militia to want to own all the systems, and to fight their best in every plex, and to chase off every attacker.
You may not see LP for defensive plexing as the solution Cearain, and that's fine, you're not alone in this opinion. But I think most players who have been active in Faction Warfare the last few months realize that the current incentive program is not doing a great job of encourage direct conflict over each and every individual plex, but rather fosters a trade mentality where you avoid conflict both offensively and defensively to chase the maximum profit in the system. This is unhealthy for FW.
Don't get wrong, we don't want a system where the winning militia can farm their own territory for LP endlessly through defensive plexing. I'm certainly not advocating that, we already have missions that work in this fashion and don't need to exacerbate the problem. But at the same time, I don't want to miss the opportunity to fix some major conflict driver issues because we're blindly attached to the idea of only giving half the war effort a reward of some kind. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
266
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 16:16:00 -
[241] - Quote
Two birds (they can be Booby's if you want) with one stone:
Make the individual system and/or constellation worth protecting by using both carrot and stick.
Possible carrots (make it constellation based so that if a single system is lost the whole she-bang is in turmoil. - Free repairs. - Enemy denied docking. - Awesome rat spawns/Exploration spawns. - Super charged industry. - Plexes taking longer to complete for enemy depending on upgrade level. - Etc.
Possible sticks: - Plexes taking less and less time for enemy to capture the deeper into contested a system drops. Wait too long and you'll never save it. - Enemy can dock!!!!! Oh Noes!!!! - Services start closing up shop as the enemy nears (contested status). NB: Hurts both sides until matter is settled (ie. Da Flip) .... would personally love to see this in a system like Amamake - Repairs becoming more and more expensive as the enemy nears (Fitting/Repair are the only services never to close, assumed to be part of the dock/hangar area). - Etc.
That is the non-escalating-LP-faucet way of solving both the incentive to D.Plex and the willingness to engage hostile plexers.
Will require the entire system be redone from scratch though, so I bet we'll see the faucet opened wide for defensive work as well thus making the last 40-50 people (not counting the temporary alliances only there to farm) actually interested in PvP leave in disgust as so many before them.
But if rumour-mill is correct, then Winter will be the last "major" FW iteration for the time being so guess the cheap and dirty way is to just give LP for everything; consequences, fun and gameplay be damned |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 16:55:00 -
[242] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Bad Messenger wrote: I do not like the idea that NPC is the only defence, there should be some reason for players to defend. Anyway if you remove all npc and players can be with pvp fitted ship does not change the fact that they escape too if you chase them away with too power full ship.
NPC is not the solution or the problem, there should be some reason/reward to chase enemy away or kill them and take the plex they started.
QFT. I fully support balancing NPC's should they remain in the plexing system, the feedback has been spot on about balancing tankability and DPS levels, but Bad Messenger is spot on here. In the end, whether you have NPC's dictating ship types or not, this does not address the core issue of incentivizing two players fighting to the death over that plex to begin with. We can hold guns to people's heads and force them to fly whatever ship we want using the NPC AI, or we can give players enough of a reason to stand their ground and not run away all the time. Personally I think the latter of the two is more important. How can we incentivize PvP in the plexes over constantly running away? Lots of ways. We can give players more visibilty, making plexers easier to locate and engage, so hiding your activity is much more difficult. We can address the fact that defensive plexing is an unpaid boring chore, effectively rendering half of all plexes undesirable as an activity to participate in. We can shorten the distance between the warp-in and the capture point, increasing the risk players take on and making that risk a PvP risk rather than a PvE risk. We can have timer progress slowly roll back when plexes are unoccupied, making it so players that bounce all the time whenever someone comes after them end up neither profiting nor contributing to the warzone. Yes, this is a thread focused on the NPC balance itself, but Bad Messenger makes an outstanding point that even if you had no NPC's regulating fits at all, if the motivation is there to complete the plex (either offensively or defensively) and there is little reward in running away constantly, players will bring the fit they need to win against the PvP threat anyways. I agree with pretty much everything said here..
Maybe i should have some faith in the CSM after all..
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2783
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 16:55:00 -
[243] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Two birds (they can be Booby's if you want) with one stone: Make the individual system and/or constellation worth protecting by using both carrot and stick.Possible carrots (make it constellation based so that if a single system is lost the whole she-bang is in turmoil. - Free repairs. - Enemy denied docking. - Awesome rat spawns/Exploration spawns. - Super charged industry. - Plexes taking longer to complete for enemy depending on upgrade level. - Etc. Possible sticks: - Plexes taking less and less time for enemy to capture the deeper into contested a system drops. Wait too long and you'll never save it. - Enemy can dock!!!!! Oh Noes!!!! - Services start closing up shop as the enemy nears (contested status). NB: Hurts both sides until matter is settled (ie. Da Flip) .... would personally love to see this in a system like Amamake - Repairs becoming more and more expensive as the enemy nears (Fitting/Repair are the only services never to close, assumed to be part of the dock/hangar area). - Etc. That is the non-escalating-LP-faucet way of solving both the incentive to D.Plex and the willingness to engage hostile plexers. Will require the entire system be redone from scratch though, so I bet we'll see the faucet opened wide for defensive work as well thus making the last 40-50 people (not counting the temporary alliances only there to farm) actually interested in PvP leave in disgust as so many before them. But if rumour-mill is correct, then Winter will be the last "major" FW iteration for the time being so guess the cheap and dirty way is to just give LP for everything; consequences, fun and gameplay be damned
Nice upgrade ideas , though now we're getting a bit off topic and there's a whole nother thread for that stuff. Doesnt *really* matter though, CCP and I are monitoring both.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Nikita Alterana
Alexylva Paradox
20
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 17:25:00 -
[244] - Quote
Overall suggestions:
You know what's not fun? Orbiting a stationary object for 10 minutes You know what is fun? Spending ten minutes blowing up 60 stationary objects that take 10 seconds each to kill, some of which have huge pretty explosions, produce damaging clouds of debris and AoE effects.
Taking a plex should feel like taking out an enemy installation. There should be some static turrets to kill, but nothing difficult at first, there should be a random chance to spawn a group of hard (sleeper/incursion styled) rats, everytime you blow up a structure. It makes plex taking much more active, and provides lots of chances for pvp that the rats won't get in your way for.
Defensive plexing becomes protecting haulers while they set up/improve a base, and if the enemy blows up the haulers, the base doesn't get set up/improved. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
585
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 17:36:00 -
[245] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: There are numerous reasons why no direct reward for d-plexing is a good plan. Including encouraging pvp and allowing the smaller militia to establish a foothold. Giving rewards just does the opposite. It entrenches the winning team and it gives people a reason to stay docked while the enemy captures an offensive plex instead of fighting them for it. Well, there is theory, and there's practice. I'll shelve theory for a second, and I'll even shelve suggesting a solution for one moment. Let's simply talk about some problems that are emerging on the server. The bottom line is that defensive plexing in its current form is nearly 100% undesirable.. Ok I do not believe militias actually want to give systems to the enemy. If they do they do not want it to be widespread. There has been absolutely no evidence of this except on a very small scale. If they give their systems away they will not be able to hit tier 5. So while they may not mind if up to 10-15% of systems go to the enemy they generally donGÇÖt want to lose systems.
I do not think that is a substantial problem. If you think I am wrong on this let me know. Otherwise letGÇÖs assume that A) people like to cash out at tier 5 and further that B) they realize that in order to do that they need to hold the vast majority of systems. Most eve players will therefore see why it is in their interest to hold onto the vast majority of systems.
Right now there are 2 ways to hold onto your space in fw.
1)You can fight off people who try to capture an offensive plex before they capture it (always a pvp way)
or
2)You can run a defensive plex. (most often a pve method)
To the extent you reward the second way you are also effectively discouraging the first method of achieving their goal. The reverse is also true. To the extent the second method is undesirable the first option becomes the more common method.
This is why making defensive plexing undesirable is a good thing! It should be undesirable to defensive plex because it becomes your only option to keep your systems (and therefore tier benefits) if you do not fight people when they offensively plex your system.
If you want to make the occupancy plexing more of a pvp activity you should make the mostly pve options undesirable. If anything you should make it so that a player who runs a defensive plex must actually pay lp if they want that work to count to decontest the system. That is their tax for not defending their system in a pvp method. That will encourage people to choose the pvp method of defending systems.
There seems to be this assumption that every activity in eve should be rewarded and encouraged. I say reward the activities that make fw pvp, not the ones like defensive plexing which make it pve.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: The profit is purely in offensive plexing, which means that for the dominant militia, there's more incentive in allowing the enemy to plex your system without resistance, so you can turn around and profit on the takeback. The winning militia is farming the underdog however you slice it, and to resist this advantage we have the nearly absurd situation of militias stopping at the point of taking space because it hands more money to the enemy. .
The above is pure theory that is no longer seen in practice. This may have happened earlier when amarr was gullible enough to immediately flip systems back to minmatar but now that no longer is the case. Minmatar was not just letting amarr get to tier 4. They were to some extent trying to fight in the plexes to prevent it. Kudos to qcats, em, and the minmatar in general.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: The problem you fear is already taking place - pilots stay docked when the enemy comes to plex their system because its more profitable to plex once you've lost your space and are taking it back. Refusing to put up resistance to offensive plexing efforts is by definition an enormous missed PvP opportunity. .
I am all for giving incentives to encourage people to fight in plexes. However if you understand what I said above then it should be pretty clear that giving more rewards for them to wait till the enemy leaves and then open a defensive plex is not the answer.
If anything the opposite may be the answer. Make so that if you defensive plex a system it will not effect the level the system is contested unless the defensive plexer pays some lp. That way even more of the effort for keeping a system will be directed fighting in plexes instead of just running your own after the enemy leaves. We already have enough of that.
I can sit in busy minmatar systems running systems without anyone coming in. Then I come back the next day and someone dplexed it down again. I donGÇÖt know if they got some pvp in that plex but I know I donGÇÖt get any from that system. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
585
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 17:38:00 -
[246] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: As I said at the CSM summit, this leads to deep frustration for FC's that want just want to fight a straight-up war, because pilots would rather sit in station, let the enemy take a system (or even help them bust the bunker) just so they can profit later, or in a diferent system. This is the opposite of encouraging conflict, its encouraging players to ignore each other for financial gain. ..
Hans your fears that this theory will happen are way overblown. Minmatar flipped one vulnerable system. Big deal. The effect of this strategy was just to save the amarr some ammo. Please this strategy is talked about but it hasnGÇÖt actually worked in practice yet and for very good reason.
Moreover let me ask you what balances this game at all other than no lp for defensive plexing? It seems to me this is the only thing the side that is down has to hang their hat on and being amarr I have thought about this for a long time. What other mechanic balances things for the side with fewer numbers and is down systems?
DonGÇÖt get mad. I am not accusing you of bias when I ask this. (In fact I know your not biased so lets get that out of the way) But let me ask:
Do you think itGÇÖs too easy for the side like the amarr to get back into the game? Is that why you want to tilt the scales in favor of the side that is winning and holding the systems? ItGÇÖs a sincere question.
I mean largely due to the fact there is no lp reward for defensive plexing, amarr was able to make a push and started making systems vulnerable. Do you think that push to tier 4 was too easy for the amarr? I mean if you did then I think yes the answer would be to reward defensive plexing.
But I donGÇÖt think it was too easy. In fact I think it may be that it is still too hard and again maybe even lp would need to be paid if the defensive plexing is to count to decontest a system.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: The whole mess of militias urself (and even there, efficiency encourages you to evade PvP offensively as well), none of this is providing the incentive for a militia to want to own all the systems, and to fight their best in every plex, and to chase off every attacker.
You may not see LP for defensive plexing as the solution Cearain, and that's fine, you're not alone in this opinion. But I think most players who have been active in Faction Warfare the last few months realize that the current incentive program is not doing a great job of encourage direct conflict over each and every individual plex, but rather fosters a trade mentality where you avoid conflict both offensively and defensively to chase the maximum profit in the system. ..
Well I gave you a very clear explanation of why rewarding defensive lp will make this game worse. Hopefully the fact that someone in militia chat or on your vent said it would be nice to get lp for defensive plexing, wonGÇÖt trump some actual thought on the issue.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Don't get wrong, we don't want a system where the winning militia can farm their own territory for LP endlessly through defensive plexing. I'm certainly not advocating thatGǪ..
Then the answer is easy. DonGÇÖt reward defensive plexing.
Keep in mind there probably are many people in your militia who would love a system where they can farm lp even more. This whole idea of giving lp for defensive plexing is mainly raised by minmatar who are upset that they milked the fw cow dry.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2784
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 19:45:00 -
[247] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Do you think itGÇÖs too easy for the side like the amarr to get back into the game? Is that why you want to tilt the scales in favor of the side that is winning and holding the systems? ItGÇÖs a sincere question.
It's also a leading question, much like "Hans, why do you want to kill all of lowsec PvP? Is that why you didn't cause a scene at the summit over Greyscale's proposed gate gun changes?" It contains a false premise, and is suggestive of the answer.
For the sake of clarity, I'll take the bait this once, but since this is a thread about NPC's lets try to stick to that discussion and move this elsewhere if it has to continue.
Quote:Right now there are 2 ways to hold onto your space in fw.
1)You can fight off people who try to capture an offensive plex before they capture it (always a pvp way) 2)You can run a defensive plex. (most often a pve method)
There is a 3rd option here that is taking place, its not like these are the only two scenarios. The third option is to just let the enemy take the system, neither defensive plexing nor PvPing, and purely offensively plexing in the same system once its been flipped. You already pointed out that this "rollover" is only happening maybe 10-15% of the time - but that is well within what the winning militia can afford to lose and still maintain tier 5.
If the winning militia can lose 10-15% of the systems at any given moment, and still cash out at tier 5 100% of the time, than those 10-15% of systems being flipped for profit end up being the de facto strategy for all systems, its justs that the dominant militia is going to keep a watchful eye to see that this practice is contained as much as possible. Whether you give up your system to farm it back (knowing full well that the temporary loss wont affect your WZC), or whether you farm your own space, its essentially the same practice - using the fact that you know you can flip a system with your available manpower to farm it, without having to move.
The root of this problem isn't in the reward for individual plexes, its in the WZC tiers - the fact that it is price that is modulated and not payouts is directly responsible for this controlled flipping of systems because all anyone really cares about right now is spiking the market periodically, not actually maintaining themselves at a given tier for the sake of keeping the bonus income flowing at all times. This lack of real-time reward is precisely why you see opposing militias live at tier 1 constantly - nothing motivates them to actually intercept the enemy from bleeding them down everyday (providing the pew you and I are both after) the only motivation comes when your magical number of systems is threatened, and even than its easier to let one system fall if another is easier to take unopposed instead.
All mechanics discussion aside, the fact remains that the Amarr lost their space before rewards were implemented, and began to take it all back once they increased their numbers, cooperation, and concentrated their timezone presence - with groups like Fweddit and Nulli playing a large part in this. One came for PvP, the other for isk (so lets shelve the argument over what actually motivates people to enlist for the underdog for another day) but both were crucial in helping the Amarr begin to take back space - not because CCP suddenly switched off defensive plex payouts post-inferno. What motivates a faction to take back space isn't the one-sided payouts, its having the active manpower to begin with.
Quote:There seems to be this assumption that every activity in eve should be rewarded and encouraged. I say reward the activities that make fw pvp, not the ones like defensive plexing which make it pve.
I understand what you're trying to say - lets reward offensive plexing because it fosters PvP (another false premise - this guide explains why PvP actually impedes offensive plexing efforts and is a waste of time) and not reward defensive because its merely PvE.
But the truth is that neither of these plexing styles are a PvP activity, and that's where we should be changing the status quo. All Faction Warfare changes have to be implemented in tandem - this means changing the nature of plexing itself as well as the reward system. Since we're working on the plex content too, there's no reason to base future recommendations regarding the payout system on a current model of plexing that we're trying to transform anyways. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
266
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 20:52:00 -
[248] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Nice upgrade ideas , though now we're getting a bit off topic and there's a whole nother thread for that stuff. Doesnt *really* matter though, CCP and I are monitoring both. A bit off topic is putting it mildly, just wanted to try to show you and Cearain that there are options beyond straight up incentives for defensive plexing .. you two seem to be looping the loop with no end in sight. Addressed the thread topic when it first opened ago and thread itself, as has the sister thread, has morphed into "larger scope" concepts as is proper if you ask me as FW's strength is that everything is interconnected (or should be at any rate) so that there is a place for everyone to do their thing.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
587
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 21:39:00 -
[249] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: Do you think itGÇÖs too easy for the side like the amarr to get back into the game? Is that why you want to tilt the scales in favor of the side that is winning and holding the systems? ItGÇÖs a sincere question. It's also a leading question, much like "Hans, why do you want to kill all of lowsec PvP? Is that why you didn't cause a scene at the summit over Greyscale's proposed gate gun changes?" It contains a false premise, and is suggestive of the answer. For the sake of clarity, I'll take the bait this once, but since this is a thread about NPC's lets try to stick to that discussion and move this elsewhere if it has to continue. .
Hans anyone who followed what happens knows that no lp for defensive plexing was the key to our getting to tier four. To the extent you start rewarding defensive lp you erode that sole balancing factor. In practice this will just mean an even worse situation where everyone joins the winning side. Its already pretty bad.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: Right now there are 2 ways to hold onto your space in fw.
1)You can fight off people who try to capture an offensive plex before they capture it (always a pvp way) 2)You can run a defensive plex. (most often a pve method)
There is a 3rd option here that is taking place, its not like these are the only two scenarios. The third option is to just let the enemy take the system, neither defensive plexing nor PvPing, and purely offensively plexing in the same system once its been flipped.You already pointed out that this "rollover" is only happening maybe 10-15% of the time - but that is well within what the winning militia can afford to lose and still maintain tier 5. If the winning militia can lose 10-15% of the systems at any given moment, and still cash out at tier 5 100% of the time, than those 10-15% of systems being flipped for profit end up being the de facto strategy for all systems, its justs that the dominant militia is going to keep a watchful eye to see that this practice is contained as much as possible. .
Contained in the other 80-90% of plexes! Thats allot of plexes you are trying to hold. And no you canGÇÖt hold a system by letting an enemy take a system. ThatGÇÖs not holding a system. Your whole premise is based on the notion that flipping your own systems is smart. But this strategy is foolish here. It has never worked well yet and even if it we do start to see that strategy it is easily countered. Amarr could just keep plexing the least contested non home system. Then which system will you flip?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
587
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 21:41:00 -
[250] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Whether you give up your system to farm it back (knowing full well that the temporary loss wont affect your WZC), or whether you farm your own space, its essentially the same practice - using the fact that you know you can flip a system with your available manpower to farm it, without having to move. .
This is hardly a concern. And it can be countered.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: The root of this problem.
Hans you have not really offered a problem. There is no problem where minmatar are going around flipping systems to amarr so they can farm them back. They flipped labapi. And that did what for them? I think it just saved amarr some ammo and helped us hit tier4. Thanks minmatar great strategy.
You and susan black keep theorizing itGÇÖs a problem that factions will want to flip their own system but we are not actually seeing that in the game. Please donGÇÖt use this bogus nonsense as an excuse to start paying the minmatar farmers for defensive plexing.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: isn't in the reward for individual plexes, its in the WZC tiers - the fact that it is price that is modulated and not payouts is directly responsible for this controlled flipping of systems because all anyone really cares about right now is spiking the market periodically, not actually maintaining themselves at a given tier for the sake of keeping the bonus income flowing at all times. This lack of real-time reward is precisely why you see opposing militias live at tier 1 constantly - nothing motivates them to actually intercept the enemy from bleeding them down everyday (providing the pew you and I are both after) the only motivation comes when your magical number of systems is threatened, and even than its easier to let one system fall if another is easier to take unopposed instead.
This proposal is discussed else where and really not related to giving lp for defensive plexing.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: All mechanics discussion aside, the fact remains that the Amarr lost their space before rewards were implemented, and began to take it all back once they increased their numbers, cooperation, and concentrated their timezone presence - with groups like Fweddit and Nulli playing a large part in this. One came for PvP, the other for isk (so lets shelve the argument over what actually motivates people to enlist for the underdog for another day) but both were crucial in helping the Amarr begin to take back space - not because CCP suddenly switched off defensive plex payouts post-inferno. What motivates a faction to take back space isn't the one-sided payouts, its having the active manpower to begin with.
Hans you completely misunderstand why amarr started taking systems back. We started taking advantage of the rule that minmatar do not get lp rewards for defensive plexing and so we started to offensive plex instead of defensive plex and we stopped flipping systems immediately after they turned vulnerable. We did not have more numbers when we did that. In fact we had just lost a huge group of plexers in the entire 7th fleet alliance. And nulli wasnGÇÖt even in fw when we had 19 systems vulnerable.
Was it more organized? Well we were able to communiticate that people shouldnGÇÖt flip systems and that they should focus on offensive plexing but that is really it. Lots of prominent amarr thought we had given up and then found we had 19 vulnerable systems more than any other time post inferno! If minmatar were getting lp for defensive plexing this would have made this much harder if not impossible.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
587
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Posted - 2012.08.22 21:41:00 -
[251] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote:Quote:There seems to be this assumption that every activity in eve should be rewarded and encouraged. I say reward the activities that make fw pvp, not the ones like defensive plexing which make it pve. I understand what you're trying to say - lets reward offensive plexing because it fosters PvP (another false premise - this guide explains why PvP actually impedes offensive plexing efforts and is a waste of time) and not reward defensive because its merely PvE. . No you donGÇÖt understand. I am challenging your premise that miltias GÇ£donGÇÖt want those systems anyway.GÇ¥ Its false despite what susan says. And yes militias do want to hold onto systems because that allows them to hit tier 5. Even though they can lose up to 20% of their systems that does not mean they want to lose those systems. Once you accept that militias really do want to hold systems there are only 2 ways to do it. Fight offensive plexers or defensive plex. Offensive plexing is mostly pvp I agree with that poster. But when you fight offensive plexers its always pvp. The problem is there is another way to hold a system other than that way which is always pvp. You can let the person capture the plex and then defensive plex after they leave system. That is a mostly pve way to hold onto systems. To the extent you reward people for that you can expect fewer to try to hold the system through the method that is always pvp. [quote=Hans Jagerblitzen] But the truth is that neither of these plexing styles are a PvP activity, and that's where we should be changing the status quo. All Faction Warfare changes have to be implemented in tandem - this means changing the nature of plexing itself as well as the reward system. Since we're working on the plex content too, there's no reason to base future recommendations regarding the payout system on a current model of plexing that we're trying to transform anyways.
The only thing ccp needs to do to fix this is let people know where others are running plexes and implement some sort of count down mechanic if you run when an enemy lands on grid.
If you start giving lp for defensive plexing though then this will really be broken.
People are still working out strategies for the tier and reward system. ItGÇÖs not broken.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2786
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Posted - 2012.08.22 23:25:00 -
[252] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Nice upgrade ideas , though now we're getting a bit off topic and there's a whole nother thread for that stuff. Doesnt *really* matter though, CCP and I are monitoring both. A bit off topic is putting it mildly, just wanted to try to show you and Cearain that there are options beyond straight up incentives for defensive plexing .. you two seem to be looping the loop with no end in sight. Addressed the thread topic when it first opened ago and thread itself, as has the sister thread, has morphed into "larger scope" concepts as is proper if you ask me as FW's strength is that everything is interconnected (or should be at any rate) so that there is a place for everyone to do their thing.
You're right. I don't know why I bother, too much work and I've gotta read it all anyways wherever it ends up. ISD - if you're reading this, feel free to allow whatever people want to talk about in this thread. :) As long as its about Faction Warfare. Any talk of space hats though please banhammer away. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Nikita Alterana
Alexylva Paradox
20
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Posted - 2012.08.23 00:14:00 -
[253] - Quote
To reiterate:
Nikita Alterana wrote:Overall suggestions:
You know what's not fun? Orbiting a stationary object for 10 minutes You know what is fun? Spending ten minutes blowing up 60 stationary objects that take 10 seconds each to kill, some of which have huge pretty explosions, produce damaging clouds of debris and AoE effects.
Taking a plex should feel like taking out an enemy installation. There should be some static turrets to kill, but nothing difficult at first, there should be a random chance to spawn a group of hard (sleeper/incursion styled) rats, everytime you blow up a structure. It makes plex taking much more active, and provides lots of chances for pvp that the rats won't get in your way for.
Defensive plexing becomes protecting haulers while they set up/improve a base, and if the enemy blows up the haulers, the base doesn't get set up/improved.
Changing the mechanic over like this would force PVP, because if you're defensive plexing operation is contingent around some target that your enemy can shoot at and blow up being left alone, then you can't exactly go hide and come back later to stop the enemy.
Also: the payouts in general needs to be modulated so that the slippery slope is not so much in effect. The more space a faction loses, the harder it should be to continue pressing forward, not easier. The enemy should be bonused towards the actions they do take when they are the underdogs. Yes, this really points out that there's no real way to win faction warfare, but there's never been a way to actually win faction warfare, so lets encourage the endless battles and give the underdog an easier time based on how badly they're doing. |
Mortromain
PALADIN IMPERATOR
1
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Posted - 2012.08.23 08:26:00 -
[254] - Quote
Cearain wrote: There seems to be this assumption that every activity in eve should be rewarded and encouraged.
Of course it should, especially for FW.
you should be able to make a living out of every activity available in the game, and this is even more important for PvP activities where you actually loose stuff.
if defensive plexing is not desirable, remove it, but right now if you want to defend your territory, you either plex and get nothing, or you hunt for the attackers but they will flee and you will gain nothing. ( and the system will stay contested)
if you want to avoid farmers, make it so that plex rewards are less than mission rewards, farmers will do missions. If you want people to engage in very uncertain fights, make system control worth it in the long run.
Also :
Cearain wrote: The only thing ccp needs to do to fix this is let people know where others are running plexes and implement some sort of count down mechanic if you run when an enemy lands on grid.
while i agree with the second point, the first seems like a "join fight" button to me. Intel gathering is an important aspect of Eve.
For the NPC modifs, the question is what do we want : - NPC adds immersion - if the NPCs are too strong, adapted fit will be used and pvp fight are less likely to happen
and i think plex should be captured faster if you are more in it, right now, you should split if you want to have a bigger impact.
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Meditril
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
103
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Posted - 2012.08.23 11:56:00 -
[255] - Quote
Here are my 2ct to this topic:
- Doing large plexes solo with a gun-less frigate should not be possible. Button should only count down if no NPC is on grid.
- NPC should have WH-AI to make them more intelligent. They should not fire contiuosly at a target out range and ignore targets in range etc. With regards to DPS and tank, NPC are fine as they are.
- Since the first change will have a massive impact on large plexes, reduce the timer. I propose make all plex timers 15 minutes at max.
- Large plexes should context / decontext a system significantly more than small ones.
- Stop LP payout for plexing if system is 100% contested / vulnerable.
- It should be impossible to contest a system more than 100%. It should be indeed possible to make a vulnerable system unvulnerable by just defensive plexing one plex. This will cause fights and pressure for the offender to stay in control of all plexes until der bunker is down. This gives a small defender fleet at least a chance to disrupt the offender even if he has a much larger fleet.
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Mortromain
PALADIN IMPERATOR
1
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Posted - 2012.08.23 12:36:00 -
[256] - Quote
Meditril wrote:Here are my 2ct to this topic:
- Doing large plexes solo with a gun-less frigate should not be possible. Button should only count down if no NPC is on grid.
- NPC should have WH-AI to make them more intelligent. They should not fire contiuosly at a target out range and ignore targets in range etc. With regards to DPS and tank, NPC are fine as they are.
- Since the first change will have a massive impact on large plexes, reduce the timer. I propose make all plex timers 15 minutes at max.
- Large plexes should context / decontext a system significantly more than small ones.
- Stop LP payout for plexing if system is 100% contested / vulnerable.
- It should be impossible to contest a system more than 100%. It should be indeed possible to make a vulnerable system unvulnerable by just defensive plexing one plex. This will cause fights and pressure for the offender to stay in control of all plexes until der bunker is down. This gives a small defender fleet at least a chance to disrupt the offender even if he has a much larger fleet.
i agree with most point (or don't care) exept with the NPC AI, could you explain why you want an improved NPC AI? it seems to me that it will just limit the number of fit you can have while being in a plex
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Meditril
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
103
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Posted - 2012.08.23 12:58:00 -
[257] - Quote
Mortromain wrote: i agree with most point (or don't care) exept with the NPC AI, could you explain why you want an improved NPC AI? it seems to me that it will just limit the number of fit you can have while being in a plex
The reason why I want an improved NPC AI is that it is simply stupid that people get a fast frigate into the large plex which recieves full aggro and move it 200 km of the rats. Then uncloak their StealthBomber and kill everything inside in AFK-mode without the rats being intelligent enough to switch the target. In addition to this they are at no risk, since they are not targeted in the StealthBomber and can therefore immediatelly cloak.
So with WH-AI the NPC rats will sooner or later switch their aggro to the SteathBomber which is from my point of view a reasonable behaviour. Then you have the choice to either speed tank the rats or warp of. Furthermore, this creates at least some risk to the plexer especially if he is playing the lazy AFK mode. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
588
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 13:23:00 -
[258] - Quote
Mortromain wrote:Cearain wrote: There seems to be this assumption that every activity in eve should be rewarded and encouraged. Of course it should, especially for FW. you should be able to make a living out of every activity available in the game, and this is even more important for PvP activities where you actually loose stuff. if defensive plexing is not desirable, remove it, but right now if you want to defend your territory, you either plex and get nothing, or you hunt for the attackers but they will flee and you will gain nothing. ( and the system will stay contested) if you want to avoid farmers, make it so that plex rewards are less than mission rewards, farmers will do missions. If you want people to engage in very uncertain fights, make system control worth it in the long run.
Yes of course, we should reward people for letting the enemy capture plexes in their systems. Lets reward them by giving them lp for doing a defensive plex after the enemy leaves. That will encourage pvp.
Mortromain wrote:Also : Cearain wrote: The only thing ccp needs to do to fix this is let people know where others are running plexes and implement some sort of count down mechanic if you run when an enemy lands on grid. while i agree with the second point, the first seems like a "join fight" button to me. Intel gathering is an important aspect of Eve. For the NPC modifs, the question is what do we want : - NPC adds immersion - if the NPCs are too strong, adapted fit will be used and pvp fight are less likely to happen and i think plex should be captured faster if you are more in it, right now, you should split if you want to have a bigger impact.
If you like to waste hours warping around for looking for fights eve already offers allot for you. This is why the game is not hitting any sort of big numbers. You supposedly join the largest war dec and it still takes hours of warping to find a fight. Not everyone in the world has hours of free time warping around for every 2 minute fight.
Its absolutely insane that when an enemy attacks you faction military facility you have no way to know this unless you happen to stumble upon them while warping around.
But anyway I am not surprised that there are allot of people who are afraid their alts won't be able to hide and plex in fw. They are making allot of isk doing that after all.
I love the people who claim they want this to be pvp, but as soon as someone says well then lets have a system where the enemy knows where you are attacking their complexes, they complain.
Bottom line is your alts won't be able to plex anymore and whoever plexes better be ready to fight for it. If you don't like that then don't join in on the biggest pvp wardec in the game. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Mortromain
PALADIN IMPERATOR
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 14:14:00 -
[259] - Quote
Meditril wrote:The reason why I want an improved NPC AI is that it is simply stupid that people get a fast frigate into the large plex which recieves full aggro and move it 200 km of the rats. Then uncloak their StealthBomber and kill everything inside in AFK-mode without the rats being intelligent enough to switch the target. In addition to this they are at no risk, since they are not targeted in the StealthBomber and can therefore immediatelly cloak.
So with WH-AI the NPC rats will sooner or later switch their aggro to the SteathBomber which is from my point of view a reasonable behaviour. Then you have the choice to either speed tank the rats or warp of. Furthermore, this creates at least some risk to the plexer especially if he is playing the lazy AFK mode.
yeah, you're right saying this is a problem, but i still think that an enhanced AI is dangerous for pvp. Maybe there is another solution but i can't think of a simple one.
Meditril wrote:Yes of course, we should reward people for letting the enemy capture plexes in their systems. Lets reward them by giving them lp for doing a defensive plex after the enemy leaves. That will encourage pvp.
i also said that you should get rewards for protecting plexes, so you don't need to wait until they are gone, besides, killing guys gives reward too. i also said that if you want people to fight over a plex, make system possession worth it on the long run.
Meditril wrote: If you like to waste hours warping around for looking for fights eve already offers allot for you. This is why the game is not hitting any sort of big numbers. You supposedly join the largest war dec and it still takes hours of warping to find a fight. Not everyone in the world has hours of free time warping around for every 2 minute fight.
You are exagerating this, in FW, it takes less than 15 min to find a WT, and the enemy fleets positions are updated on the militia chan, It doesn't mean that you have a fight, but knowing where the WT is doesn't guarantee it either.
Meditril wrote: But anyway I am not surprised that there are allot of people who are afraid their alts won't be able to hide and plex in fw. They are making allot of isk doing that after all.
I love the people who claim they want this to be pvp, but as soon as someone says well then lets have a system where the enemy knows where you are attacking their complexes, they complain.
That is why CCP should lower plex rewards below other farming activities |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
588
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 14:28:00 -
[260] - Quote
Mortromain wrote:Meditril wrote: If you like to waste hours warping around for looking for fights eve already offers allot for you. This is why the game is not hitting any sort of big numbers. You supposedly join the largest war dec and it still takes hours of warping to find a fight. Not everyone in the world has hours of free time warping around for every 2 minute fight. You are exagerating this, in FW, it takes less than 15 min to find a WT, and the enemy fleets positions are updated on the militia chan, It doesn't mean that you have a fight, but knowing where the WT is doesn't guarantee it either. Meditril wrote: But anyway I am not surprised that there are allot of people who are afraid their alts won't be able to hide and plex in fw. They are making allot of isk doing that after all.
I love the people who claim they want this to be pvp, but as soon as someone says well then lets have a system where the enemy knows where you are attacking their complexes, they complain.
That is why CCP should lower plex rewards below other farming activities
Just knowing the location of a fleet is not getting a fight. You then have the endless shipping up and down. Your original complaint was this is a "get fight button." Its not really that, but yes it would *greatly* help people who want to pvp to find fights. Which is a huge problem in eve whether you realize it or not.
As far as reducing the rewards - well if they make plexing a pvp mechanic people might actually need those rewards to buy new ships. If you are losing your ship and therefore not capturing every other plex that lp might be handy just to replace your ships. Reducing the rewards based on the current pve set up is not wise - unless the intent is to leave it as a pve mechanic.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Deacon Abox
Genstar Inc Villore Accords
2
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Posted - 2012.08.23 14:46:00 -
[261] - Quote
Meditril wrote:Here are my 2ct to this topic:
1. Doing large plexes solo with a gun-less frigate should not be possible. Button should only count down if no NPC is on grid. 2. NPC should have WH-AI to make them more intelligent. They should not fire contiuosly at a target out range and ignore targets in range etc. With regards to DPS and tank, NPC are fine as they are. 3. Since the first change will have a massive impact on large plexes, reduce the timer. I propose make all plex timers 15 minutes at max. 4. Large plexes should context / decontext a system significantly more than small ones. 5. Stop LP payout for plexing if system is 100% contested / vulnerable. 6. It should be impossible to contest a system more than 100%. It should be indeed possible to make a vulnerable system unvulnerable by just defensive plexing one plex. This will cause fights and pressure for the offender to stay in control of all plexes until der bunker is down. This gives a small defender fleet at least a chance to disrupt the offender even if he has a much larger fleet. [/list] 1. agree 2. not sure this is a good thing, WH-AI might actually killoff fighting in plexes, because we are stuck with more fragile tech I frig, dest, and cruisers which is not the case as in WH space. 3. sounds good 4. possibly 5. definitely. And it would funnel the farming alts (assuming they survive as low skilled alts) into fewer systems where they themselves could be farmed quite easily. 6. hmm, well it would make bunker busting or mass bunker busting more difficult. it might cut down on the extreme ping pong monthly or so lp dumping strategies currently manifesting. Would have to think more about this. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
103
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 15:21:00 -
[262] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote: 2. not sure this is a good thing, WH-AI might actually killoff fighting in plexes, because we are stuck with more fragile tech I frig, dest, and cruisers which is not the case as in WH space. 6. hmm, well it would make bunker busting or mass bunker busting more difficult. it might cut down on the extreme ping pong monthly or so lp dumping strategies currently manifesting. Would have to think more about this.
With regards to your concerns to point 2. I was just talking about AI and not about making the NPC harder to kill. Better AI will just make the NPC switch their primary target from time to time and also distributed damage accross targets. FW-NPC should also with new AI not use any E-War. For small plexes this will make no difference since you can kill NPCs easily from range with one destroyer. For larger plexes the difference will be that you with AI can't simply tank all the damage by flying a frigate at 200km of the NPC and doing the damage with a No-Tank Ship. With the AI set-up you have to come with somehow balanced ships which is much closer to what is necessary for PVP which also mean you get better fights. Furthermore NPC-AI will make it also more interesting to fight against pirates in a plex, because NPC might switch their target to the new incomming pirate.
With regards to point 6. Currently if you want to flip a system, then the FC calls everyone to come as big as possible just for the matter of DPS. Such an approach will be naturally in danger if point 6 is implemented. This is fine, because bringing as big as possible ships tends to exclude young players. If point 6 is implemented, then the FC has an incentive to invite players with small ships for the bunker bash too. They than have to take care of keeping the small plexes clean which forces fleets to have a wide spectrum of ships which I think is in fafour of PVP and enables tactical decisions. |
Mortromain
PALADIN IMPERATOR
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 15:32:00 -
[263] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Just knowing the location of a fleet is not getting a fight. You then have the endless shipping up and down. Your original complaint was this is a "get fight button." Its not really that, but yes it would *greatly* help people who want to pvp to find fights. Which is a huge problem in eve whether you realize it or not.
I realize that this is not a huge problem in FW, you have tools to get fight : intel chat, scouts, map statistics (wich include FW stat), and system status monitoring. I like this process, so i would consider it a feature removal. But i understand that some people don't like this.
Cearain wrote:As far as reducing the rewards - well if they make plexing a pvp mechanic people might actually need those rewards to buy new ships. If you are losing your ship and therefore not capturing every other plex that lp might be handy just to replace your ships. Reducing the rewards based on the current pve set up is not wise - unless the intent is to leave it as a pve mechanic.
I'm not sure i understand what you call a pvp mechanics in this case, Do you mean that capturing can only be done upon PvP fighting? |
Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
47
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 17:07:00 -
[264] - Quote
I've only read the last couple of pages, so I may have missed things...
NPCs Required in plexs to avoid gun-less plex farming Need to be killed to avoid gun-less plex farming (may include *low* hp structures as well as ships) Fairly easy to kill Aggro only when shot at. Allows pvp to happen in plexs with less interference
Plex Defence Timer runs back to zero when no attackers are in range. Reduces the willingness of attackers to run away from defenders instead of pvping. Reduces need for defenders to sit at the button doing nothing for no reward The plex itself should have a (much longer) timer which also runs down when no attackers are in range. It will eventually defensive plex itself away if not attacked.
No defensive plexing requirement avoids the issue of lack of reward. Plexs (eventually) defend themselves, causing system control to slowly(!) revert to stable. Attackers need to constantly attack over time to gain system control. Attackers will have need to be able to shoot things and run away less, providing more pvp with defenders
No system control level above vulnerable. No lp rewards for plexing an already vulnerable system.
That seems to fix the obvious issues while (hopefully) using technically possible and simple options. |
Mortromain
PALADIN IMPERATOR
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 17:34:00 -
[265] - Quote
in fact i think you are misunderstanding me :
when i said that defensive plexing should get rewards, it is because it is currently the only way to diminish the contestation. But like i said, remove D-plexing if it is unwanted. If the contestation diminish by itself overtime, then you can effectively defend by protecting the plexes from hostile, but i still think you should get something from driving WT away from the plex.
It make me think of a way to balance NPCs.
The problem right now is that without NPCs, farming plexes will become too easy, but if a player is under NPC fire, he will avoid a fight inside the plex. and the plex is the reason to fight.
But what if while the button is being captured, NPCs from both faction were being spawned, this way you have npcs firing on both fleets, it might be difficult to balance the spawnings but here is an example for a minor plex :
Upon the plex spawning (done only by an attacker because defensive plexing is unwanted), 5 weak defender frigate spawn, once they are destroyed, 5 mediumly strong frigates spawn for each side when the defenders NPC are dead, 5 strong frigate spawn for the defenders and 5 medium for the attackers, the goal is to have around the same dps on both sides. if a the defender kills all attacking NPC, the plex is reset and the present defender gets lp for protecting it.
but maybe it's crap, it's just brainstorming
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
589
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 19:24:00 -
[266] - Quote
Mortromain wrote:Cearain wrote: Just knowing the location of a fleet is not getting a fight. You then have the endless shipping up and down. Your original complaint was this is a "get fight button." Its not really that, but yes it would *greatly* help people who want to pvp to find fights. Which is a huge problem in eve whether you realize it or not.
I realize that this is not a huge problem in FW, you have tools to get fight : intel chat, scouts, map statistics (wich include FW stat), and system status monitoring. I like this process, so i would consider it a feature removal. But i understand that some people don't like this.
FW is probably the best in eve but its still pretty terrible. It is not that rare to go 2 or 3 hours without a good fight.
All of eve has intel chat, scouts and map statistics. The only added tool fw has is the fw stat sheet which really isn't that much more helpful in finding a fight.
Like I said you might be fine with getting about 1 decent fight per hour. But its a big reason why eve is criticized for being boring and slow. FW can be a mechanic where people could regularly get 7-10 fights every 2 hours. People like you who like looking at maps and have alts scout around could still do that in other areas like wormholes, null sec, and low sec generally as a pirate. FW could be an option for people who like a bit more frequent combat.
Cearain wrote:As far as reducing the rewards - well if they make plexing a pvp mechanic people might actually need those rewards to buy new ships. If you are losing your ship and therefore not capturing every other plex that lp might be handy just to replace your ships. Reducing the rewards based on the current pve set up is not wise - unless the intent is to leave it as a pve mechanic.
I'm not sure i understand what you call a pvp mechanics in this case, Do you mean that capturing can only be done upon PvP fighting?[/quote]
No.
But if ccp did things like let us know when military plexes are attacked so players could defend them, and had a form of timer count down if peope warped out of the plex when an enemy was on grid. And if they made it so the rats dps don't make it so people can't fly pvp ships. These are things that would make plexing a pvp mechanic instead of the pve mechanic it is now.
If they did these things you would probably see the number of pvp fights per plex captured go from 2% to 70%. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Mortromain
PALADIN IMPERATOR
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 08:59:00 -
[267] - Quote
Cearain wrote:FW is probably the best in eve but its still pretty terrible. It is not that rare to go 2 or 3 hours without a good fight.
All of eve has intel chat, scouts and map statistics. The only added tool fw has is the fw stat sheet which really isn't that much more helpful in finding a fight.
Like I said you might be fine with getting about 1 decent fight per hour. But its a big reason why eve is criticized for being boring and slow. FW can be a mechanic where people could regularly get 7-10 fights every 2 hours. People like you who like looking at maps and have alts scout around could still do that in other areas like wormholes, null sec, and low sec generally as a pirate. FW could be an option for people who like a bit more frequent combat.
i did low sec pvp, but the problem is that it is very difficult to make a living out of it and you indeed can roam for 2 hours without finding targets.
FW allows you to find them really quickly.
The fact is that i don't think that knowing where the adverse militia is will increase the number of fight you get. With Eve rules, people will only fight if they think they have a chance, if you know where your enemy is , a small fleet will get blobed everytime then flee.
Your wish of getting 10 fights every 2 hours is possible only if the two sides are of the same strength. The losing side will not come again and again if they loose. And if the sides are actually even, the fights happening must produce enough income for both sides to replace ship loss, or it will suffocate both sides.
What i am afraid of with your proposal is that the losing side can not force a big fleet to spread, making every fight lost in advance.
I completely agree with putting very low dps NPCs though, make them tanky enough that capturing a plex in an undersize ship is impossible, but without dps (maybe just put a structure to destroy, its boring but it won't affect pvp) |
fon Luck
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 09:46:00 -
[268] - Quote
My suggestion: 1. Remove plexs. 2. Give much more LP for killing WT. 3. Increase system contested level from killing WT.
Sorry for my english. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
103
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 11:04:00 -
[269] - Quote
fon Luck wrote:My suggestion: 1. Remove plexs. 2. Give much more LP for killing WT. 3. Increase system contested level from killing WT.
Sorry for my english.
This will simply create a big hole for missuse. In such a scenario you just get an Alt in the enemy milita and then kill him all day to farm LP. Sounds not good to me. |
Thaddeus Rees
Armored Core Strategies
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 18:58:00 -
[270] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Bad Messenger wrote: I do not like the idea that NPC is the only defence, there should be some reason for players to defend. Anyway if you remove all npc and players can be with pvp fitted ship does not change the fact that they escape too if you chase them away with too power full ship.
NPC is not the solution or the problem, there should be some reason/reward to chase enemy away or kill them and take the plex they started.
QFT. I fully support balancing NPC's should they remain in the plexing system, the feedback has been spot on about balancing tankability and DPS levels, but Bad Messenger is spot on here. In the end, whether you have NPC's dictating ship types or not, this does not address the core issue of incentivizing two players fighting to the death over that plex to begin with. We can hold guns to people's heads and force them to fly whatever ship we want using the NPC AI, or we can give players enough of a reason to stand their ground and not run away all the time. Personally I think the latter of the two is more important. How can we incentivize PvP in the plexes over constantly running away? Lots of ways. We can give players more visibilty, making plexers easier to locate and engage, so hiding your activity is much more difficult. We can address the fact that defensive plexing is an unpaid boring chore, effectively rendering half of all plexes undesirable as an activity to participate in. We can shorten the distance between the warp-in and the capture point, increasing the risk players take on and making that risk a PvP risk rather than a PvE risk. We can have timer progress slowly roll back when plexes are unoccupied, making it so players that bounce all the time whenever someone comes after them end up neither profiting nor contributing to the warzone. Yes, this is a thread focused on the NPC balance itself, but Bad Messenger makes an outstanding point that even if you had no NPC's regulating fits at all, if the motivation is there to complete the plex (either offensively or defensively) and there is little reward in running away constantly, players will bring the fit they need to win against the PvP threat anyways.
Honestly, I like the idea that it should be players defending plexes. And although I've tried that, I meet ALOT of triple stabbed merlins. If you incentivise defensive plexing somehow, while allowing offensive plexes to take an efficient PvP fit then those of us that want it would get the FW we dream of, where we actually fight relatively even fights against other players.
The problem is that anything that makes it possible to ignore Npc's in favour of PvP is likely to exacerbate the issue of farming alts... (Yes I'm looking at you minimatar).
One final problem, if you reduced the range of the warpin from the button with Npc's as they are, there would be no option other than to take a triple stabbed merlin offensive plexing. The ONLY thing making it possible to defend an offensive plexing site with Npc's as they are, is the ability to burn away from the Npc's with a mwd, and fight the defending pilot without needing to tank the Npc's dps.
Please don't do anything rash that makes it Harder to PvP while offensive plexing. Maybe have the Npc's stop shooting for as long as there is another non offensive militia in the plex... (Yes including neutrals, I don't want pies driving me out of offensive plexing either!!!)
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Justin Cody
Tri-gun Lost Obsession
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 04:17:00 -
[271] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright folks, as stated in the latest FW blog, there are certain points in Factional Warfare that still need to be looked at after Inferno. One of these are the NPCs; we all have grown to hate them as they jam you non stop for 5 minutes, or laugh at them when speed tanking them while capturing a complex. So, let's try to find ways to make them interesting here.
- Think a FW NPC is plain broken, crap or annoying? Post its exact name here, and explain why and what. Again, please remember, this discussion is about FW NPCs, not mission / deadspace / Incursion / Sleepers or whatever (we know there are a lot of them to fix in other features as well, but let's not get lost here shall we?).
- What do you think about Navy NPCs when you go to enemy high-security space? What would you do about that?
- What about the standing mechanic that govern NPC attack behavior? When do you feel they should engage you? Low standings? Capturing a complex?
Thanks for your feedback.
Truncated for ease.
- 1) broken is that you can capture the plex without killing the defending npc's who sorta shrug at you as you warp off victoriously having orbited them for a period between 10 and 20 minutes on average.
-2) Navy NPC's in high sec should apply points before webs to targets of enemy factions (though perhaps not pirates...cause I am one and I like them helping me to warp faster)
-3) NPC's in low sec should attack any non-militia regardless of standings as they are trespassing on military property...additionally they should at some level (perhaps major and major unrestricted) apply webs, though perhaps not warp scrambling devices. To discourage solo activities on noob alts perhaps all FW plexes should have some form of arp scrambling NPC with the number and toughness of the npc's rising with the supposed plex difficulty rise.
I know this is supposed to be a low barrier to pvp, but honestly it is more of a farm system than one that encourages a fight.
On to the ihubs
-4) Ihubs can be hit whenever the system is vulnerable and it flips at the next down time...so a system ebing vulnerable is the same as being lost...except that it still spawns plexes (ideally to let defenders defensively plex I'd gather).
The problem with defensive plexing is that there is no just reward for the work. You get increased standings gains (they pat you on teh butt and send you on your way). So no one bothers defensively plexing a system that is vulnerable.
The other effect of vulnerability is that there is nothing to force a fight on a certain time table like in 0.0 sov. All the enemy has to do is wait until you are bored/asleep/ @ work and they can shoot it with a fleet of stealth bombers, thrashers and tier 3 bc's and it flips. Defense is pointless...you just have to farm lp offensively now.
Traditionally in EVE game mechanics the defender is given some advantage....like knowing when the enemy has to strike.
A simple Player Owned Customs Office (POCO) has the best mechanic for this. It has a window of a couple hours when it could come out of RF. As it stands the FW i-hubs have no RF and might as well be lost right when system is vulnerable for all the practicality of it.
-5) ihub HP is fine, perhaps a boost to its passive recharge rate so that a fleet of 50 or so thrashers can't do it would be nice. or 25% resists even across the board to harden it up a bit. Add a small bit of challenge for attackers. Perhaps have a nice fleet of hostile NPC's protecting it instead of an RF timer. They come fully equipped with ECM, webs, points and might as well be a small incusion force for its difficulty.
Either way the current system is geared towards farming rather than playing the game for any RP reason. The flavor isn't there. Perhaps more live events in FW would help.
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CaleAdaire
Research Industry Mining and Support Gatekeepers Universe
54
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 02:11:00 -
[272] - Quote
I just want to know why it is when I was in the militia, I would rush in to stop the take over of site by gallente and the NPC's (supposed to be caldari...) start shooting me! Stop friendly fire? I'm bored... Let's shoot the rocks. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2800
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 12:00:00 -
[273] - Quote
Thaddeus Rees wrote: The problem is that anything that makes it possible to ignore Npc's in favour of PvP is likely to exacerbate the issue of farming alts... (Yes I'm looking at you minimatar).
One final problem, if you reduced the range of the warpin from the button with Npc's as they are, there would be no option other than to take a triple stabbed merlin offensive plexing. The ONLY thing making it possible to defend an offensive plexing site with Npc's as they are, is the ability to burn away from the Npc's with a mwd, and fight the defending pilot without needing to tank the Npc's dps.
Please don't do anything rash that makes it Harder to PvP while offensive plexing. Maybe have the Npc's stop shooting for as long as there is another non offensive militia in the plex... (Yes including neutrals, I don't want pies driving me out of offensive plexing either!!!)
The whole purpose of this thread is to ask players how they want the NPC's balanced for fairness, and yet you argue that we can't make a set of changes because the NPC's are currently imbalanced.
I don't say this to be adversarial, you make excellent points, I'm just using this as an opportunity to remind players that the NPC's will almost certainly be rebalanced along with the plexing mechanics. ALL variables are in motion here, nothing should be taken for granted as it stands today.
And for the record, NPC's that de-agress upon enemy player entry is my absolute favorite solution to a lot of these issues. If the timer stopped and the NPC's deaggressed whenever a player warped in, we could have our PvP unfettered, and you couldn't just use an alt to trigger the de-aggression because you would be stopping the timer in the process.
Regardless of whatever form the NPC's take in the end, there will inevitably be some optimal plex-running ship that is discovered, there will still be some degree of farming, even if the ship used for this purpose is much more substantial than a triple-stabbed merlin. The days of farming complaints will certainly never end, the goal should be to continue to make these as PvP oriented as possible with the minimal amount of NPC involvement as possible to reduce speed-farming. I do NOT want these to become mini-incursions where the risk comes from dying to the NPC's themselves. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Meditril
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
105
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 13:25:00 -
[274] - Quote
A big NO for the following points!
Justin Cody wrote: -2) Navy NPC's in high sec should apply points before webs to targets of enemy factions (though perhaps not pirates...cause I am one and I like them helping me to warp faster)
-3) NPC's in low sec should attack any non-militia regardless of standings as they are trespassing on military property...additionally they should at some level (perhaps major and major unrestricted) apply webs, though perhaps not warp scrambling devices. To discourage solo activities on noob alts perhaps all FW plexes should have some form of arp scrambling NPC with the number and toughness of the npc's rising with the supposed plex difficulty rise.
-5) ihub HP is fine, perhaps a boost to its passive recharge rate so that a fleet of 50 or so thrashers can't do it would be nice. or 25% resists even across the board to harden it up a bit. Add a small bit of challenge for attackers. Perhaps have a nice fleet of hostile NPC's protecting it instead of an RF timer. They come fully equipped with ECM, webs, points and might as well be a small incusion force for its difficulty.
In detail: 2- If Navy NPC apply points in High-Sec then you make High-Sec complete save for FW members belonging to the faction of the high sec you are in. On the other hand any voyage into enemy high-sec for the opposite faction will get impossible. This will kill a lot of PVP fun. Therefore a clear NO!
3- Solo activites on noob alts are easily reduced if you need to kill the NPC. Webs or scrams of guarding NPC will completely kill PVP. Everyone will run in Stabbed ships and warp out on every sign on danger. If you force people to bring at least some useful ship and play around with the NPC then they might fight if they feel superior or you might be able to snag them because they are busy.
5- Being able to crush an unguarded IHub with frigates within one hour is fine. Don't force us to bring the 0.0 blob for this job. If you really want to encourage fight then you might think about informing while milita if an IHub is aggressed. |
Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
49
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 17:05:00 -
[275] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: And for the record, NPC's that de-agress upon enemy player entry is my absolute favorite solution to a lot of these issues. If the timer stopped and the NPC's deaggressed whenever a player warped in, we could have our PvP unfettered, and you couldn't just use an alt to trigger the de-aggression because you would be stopping the timer in the process.
Can you explain this a bit more?
As I understand it: Offensive plexer is killing NPC's. Defender warps in NPCs stop shooting offensive plexer and the timer stops Both players shoot each other
Surely that would just create speed tanked *defenders*? What would stop me, as a defender, warping in using a speed tanked slasher (for example) and just flying around until the plexer gets bored and runs away? I can stop the timer and be impossible to catch. The offensive plexer can't do anything except find another plex.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
272
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 17:44:00 -
[276] - Quote
Yeah, the straight de-aggress is one of those things that look awesome on paper but is destined to be 'meh', worse still it does not really solve anything as the majority of plexers will still run 90% of the time so you end up wasting resources coding something that has a fringe effect at best.
Quoting myself from page one as I do not think it can be done 'properly' without an AI overhaul.
Veshta Yoshida wrote:NPC's could all be the grossly overpowered Concord vessels if only the AI/behaviour was coded right. Not sure if the actual ships need much changing at all to be honest, eWar could do with a downwards tweak but I am hoping that the eWar revision will make any such change pointless .. you are still planning on revising eWar I take it? Have them protect that which they were meant to first and foremost .. the complex, aka. timer, instead of everything with the proper standings. - If a person enters capture range (CR), check standings, if hated -> shoot him down. - If a person leaves capture range, but has taken no hostile action -> keep him locked but do nothing further. - If more than one with hated standings are in CR, then use threat list akin to the one used by Incursion Sansha. - If a person is in plex but not in CR, lock him up -> do nothing further. - If a person is in plex but not in CR and takes hostile action against guards -> shoot him down but never leave striking distance of timer which is to be protected. * Basically have them ignore anyone who is not a direct threat to the plex or its personnel. Add some sentries around the timer to assist with LR targets (especially in Gallente plexes where NPC weapons are worse than BB guns) and to make the solo AB frig capture an impossibility. It is a military installation damnit, surely they have some gun emplacements .. even the smallest of the small pirate installations have some defensive guns in place! The NPCs are now something to do when no pew is present and they don't interfere with the pew when it is (provided it doesn't happen on the timer ). Now, I understand that CCP are loathe to mess around with AI and NPC power as the rats are shared with missions both in and out of FW. I also understand that CCP has said they would like worm AI to be implemented everywhere but that the server performance is an issue, yet they created Incursions with that exact (or close enough) AI system and by my reckoning Incursions are probably spawning as many if not more NPCs/plexes as FW.
Long-term fix: Create an entirely new subset of rats specifically for FW, with worm/Incursion AI.
Short-term fix: Something like in the quote above, should be possible to add some AI behaviour without breaking rats elsewhere as long as it is tied to FW specific mechanics (ie. timer, timer-range sphere). Or something as simple as destructible sentries balanced to suit the three size plexes to make the use of "inappropriate" ships (read: gunless frigs/speed tankers) impossible.
Either way, not sure is is prudent to look at the NPC's as a stand-alone thing as part of a solution could for example be the timer that counts backwards automatically when hostile leaves .. the beauty of FW is the interconnectedness of all things, use/abuse that when cooking ideas.
PS: How about adding LP-for-Kills x2 (or more) to value of a given plex when it is capped as a little extra incentive to kill each other inside. PPS: No matter what, the farm has to be addressed as a first priority if any headway towards the pew/tug-o-war of old is to be made. The idea that each side takes turns steam-rolling the other to get to the ATM is just stupid and makes for really crappy reading (mostly been whoring it up lately ) .. I can empathize with the people complaining about FW spamming WarTac these days as most threads are devoid of content, was better pre-patch when we smacked about actual engagements rather than "today we farmed ourselves back to tier 4-5!!!!11111". |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2803
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 17:47:00 -
[277] - Quote
Axl Borlara wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: And for the record, NPC's that de-agress upon enemy player entry is my absolute favorite solution to a lot of these issues. If the timer stopped and the NPC's deaggressed whenever a player warped in, we could have our PvP unfettered, and you couldn't just use an alt to trigger the de-aggression because you would be stopping the timer in the process.
Can you explain this a bit more? As I understand it: Offensive plexer is killing NPC's. Defender warps in NPCs stop shooting offensive plexer and the timer stops Both players shoot each other Surely that would just create speed tanked *defenders*? What would stop me, as a defender, warping in using a speed tanked slasher (for example) and just flying around until the plexer gets bored and runs away? I can stop the timer and be impossible to catch. The offensive plexer can't do anything except find another plex.
It's not really any different that the current scenario, except that now the attacker wouldn't have to deal with NPC DPS while he kills the defender.
I'm not suggesting that any defender inside the plex stops the timer, I still think the stopping of the timer should take place only when the enemy is also in range of the button - you're absolutely right we don't want speedy slashers orbiting at 100km and stopping timers. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2803
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 18:00:00 -
[278] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Either way, not sure is is prudent to look at the NPC's as a stand-alone thing as part of a solution could for example be the timer that counts backwards automatically when hostile leaves .. the beauty of FW is the interconnectedness of all things, use/abuse that when cooking ideas.
Veshta's absolutely right, the NPC issue is but one piece in this puzzle, and MUST be fixed alongside things like the backwards timer, the farming of the WZC scheme, the system upgrades, all of it. This is certainly how I'm approaching this, and thankfully CCP is also taking a rather holistic approach in addressing these issues from the preliminary ideas they are tossing around internally. There is no "silver bullet", neither CCP nor myself are naive enough to think that there is. I'm also thankful that I haven't heard any limits yet on what can be gutted and overhauled, up to and including creating custom NPC's to replace existing plex content.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
49
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 16:28:00 -
[279] - Quote
That's encouraging, except that some things need fixing ASAP. A few relatively minor changes *now* that remove the bulk of the farmers will be enough to keep people happy and still involved in FW until the rest of the fixes come along. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 00:12:00 -
[280] - Quote
One thing that i don't know if has been mentioned.
But one problem with pvp in plexes is that the NPC's tip the scales.. You don't nessisarily want to 1v1 another merlin if yours is taking fire from npc's as well.
this might not exactly be a problem or a fault but it certainly does not encourage pvp. |
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2804
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 00:13:00 -
[281] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:One thing that i don't know if has been mentioned.
But one problem with pvp in plexes is that the NPC's tip the scales.. You don't nessisarily want to 1v1 another merlin if yours is taking fire from npc's as well.
this might not exactly be a problem or a fault but it certainly does not encourage pvp.
Oh it's been mentioned. :) This is very much on CCP's radar.....they're wrapping up release planning so you should start to see the preliminary list of fixes trickle out soon for everyone to discuss Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2804
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 00:19:00 -
[282] - Quote
Axl Borlara wrote:That's encouraging, except that some things need fixing ASAP. A few relatively minor changes *now* that remove the bulk of the farmers will be enough to keep people happy and still involved in FW until the rest of the fixes come along.
To be fair, the issues that affect farming aren't exactly "minor changes". They may seem that way conceptually, but its going to take them some development time and its extremely unlikely that you'll see anything changed until the December release.
Is it going to get worse before it gets better? Probably, so hang in there. The good news though is that CCP isn't just giving FW the surface treatment when the time comes, they're trying very hard to hit a lot of these issues at their core. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
35
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 06:59:00 -
[283] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:One thing that i don't know if has been mentioned.
But one problem with pvp in plexes is that the NPC's tip the scales.. You don't nessisarily want to 1v1 another merlin if yours is taking fire from npc's as well.
this might not exactly be a problem or a fault but it certainly does not encourage pvp. Oh it's been mentioned. :) This is very much on CCP's radar.....they're wrapping up release planning so you should start to see the preliminary list of fixes trickle out soon for everyone to discuss
Yatta!
People who don't want to fight make me sad, making them more likely to fight makes me happy!
And then after this CCP should release an expansion named OUTLAW. And focus for half a year on making life for us reds easier instead of harder >=[ |
Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
13
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 09:06:00 -
[284] - Quote
One of my big problems with those NPCs is that they are causing the faction standing when you kill them. Yes, roleplay... pick sides... consequences...
But the consequences are simply: if you ruin your faction standings while doing FW, many people will NOT take part in FW who normally would. As CEO I have A HELL of trouble beating into new pilots that they MUST NOT ruin their standings. Standing mechanics are something that does not interest many players for managing standings is very tedious. But at a corp level, you lose many options: Try form a fleet, do something in HiSec - you can bet that some guy who runs missions in his off-time will say: well, I cannot chase that war target, my standing with Amarr is too low. Not to even mention being able to setup POSes in a mixed corp... Alternative: turn half of potential members away because of wrong standings.
TL;DR: Please DO NOT make it mandatory to ruin your faction standing in FW. This will keep players from trying out FW and make this feature only available to some FW-only corps/players.
I also do believe that you would not see that many gun-less, stab-fitted lol-fits in Plexes if killing the NPCs actuall would not do any harm.
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Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
13
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 10:08:00 -
[285] - Quote
Proposal for a rebalance change:
1. Make offensive plexing happen in 2 PHASES: I) INITIAL FIGHT (PvE) II) SITTING DUCK :-D (potential PvP)
2. NPCs in FW-Plexes do not cause standing hits any more.
ad I) ship warps into enemy Plex and starts approaching the button. IF the timer is right at the start, an NPC spawn will happen. This spawn should be challenging and appropriate to the complex size. This makes sure that no one can do plexes without guns.
Important: it should be possible to kill the NPCs in a relatively short timespan - but not without guns. (example 5 minutes in a 15 minutes plex)
ad II) after a certain time period (above 5 minutes) the Beacon starts broadcasting for help in Local chat. ("Gallente minor outpost: help, we are under attack!"). If you do it right, the NPCs should be dead by then.
You have to kill the NPCs (or maybe at least an overseer) to capture the plex AND run the timer down. If there are no enemies near the button, the timer will regenerate in favor of the defending side. The spawn will only happen if the timer is less than 5 minutes.
Effect: -you can not speed tank complexes, but you will have to bring a ship at least capable of dealing with the NPCs. Otherwise you cannot capture the complex. -no one minds shooting the NPCs because of standings. -After the initial fight you are forced to sit duck at the beacon while everyone in the system is aware that you are doing it. There will be no NPCs around to discourage PvP (then again... it could be A TARP!) -defensive plexing is done automatically since there is no incentive to do it anyway -defenders find the attackers easier -> moar fights |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
856
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 14:37:00 -
[286] - Quote
@yiterbambam you link to this thread as "npc and complex revamp" so here is my complex revamp feedback
timers should run backwards if you leave the flag there should be a requirement to kill NPCs before finishing a plex
what should that fix? It should encourage plexing with pvp ships, create "hold the line" situations etc. You will lose progress if you run away and 0 risk sig tanking in alpha alts without fitting guns (speak farming) wouldn't work anymore.
(yes i don't care much about NPCs but AI changes are always very welcome) a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
275
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 14:38:00 -
[287] - Quote
Come'on Ytterbium, press the "Post" button already. Ignore the other thread, Fozz got that covered!!!!
Come ON!!!!! |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
109
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 14:40:00 -
[288] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Come'on Ytterbium, press the "Post" button already. Ignore the other thread, Fozz got that covered!!!! Come ON!!!!!
^^
Seriously, this is where the most important macro changes will occur. The root of the farming problem is how easy it is to plex and gain LP while constantly running from PVP. |
fingie
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 15:19:00 -
[289] - Quote
I have a question: was the point of FW to bring players into low-sec, or to have more PvP? Because if it's the first, I would say it's been a great success so far and leave well enough alone. If it's the second then it was not as successful as some would like (whine, whine, we want easy pvp where the target is stuck, whine) but I still got killed over 20 times so far, so I guess that's PvP of sorts.
Just wondering if everyone who is so hot on changing the system realizes that the population after such changes would be about a tenth of the present one (and why they're so happy about it if they do understand that). |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2806
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 15:53:00 -
[290] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:Come'on Ytterbium, press the "Post" button already. Ignore the other thread, Fozz got that covered!!!! Come ON!!!!! ^^ Seriously, this is where the most important macro changes will occur. The root of the farming problem is how easy it is to plex and gain LP while constantly running from PVP.
Farmers in AFK frigates will cry many, many, tears once they see what's coming to them. Make isk while you can people.....
...but these guys are in a ton of meetings today, finalizing things and posting them up as they have time to draft them on their breaks. Be patient, give the devs a lttle time here, I think you'll like what you see. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
|
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 15:58:00 -
[291] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:@yiterbambam you link to this thread as "npc and complex revamp" so here is my complex revamp feedback timers should run backwards if you leave the flag
Yes.
Bienator II wrote: there should be a requirement to kill NPCs before finishing a plex
Really have to disagree with this, for two reasons.
One: FW is a great entry level, new-player pvp experience because it has a low barrier of entry, and a big part of that is the fact that a really new player can substantively contribute to their faction's war effort, via plexing. That is valuable -- it makes FW new-player accessible in a way that NO other major PvP activity currently is, especially when you take into consideration the fact that any comparable activity (RvB, nullsec newbie hero tackle) has a massive player-based infrastructure to keep it going. (Yes, this new-player accessibility allows vets to use new alts to farm plexes, but in addressing that, CCP needs to retain the appeal to new players, because it is a good an important feature of FW.)
Two: Faction warfare needs less mandatory PvE, not more. Wanna turn the 'orbit zone' around the button into a warp bubble? Cool. Want to move the warp-in point closer to the button? Awesome. You want to mandate PvE inside a thing that's supposed to encourage PvP? No. Does not compute. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2806
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 16:13:00 -
[292] - Quote
Ty Delaney wrote: Two: Faction warfare needs less mandatory PvE, not more. Wanna turn the 'orbit zone' around the button into a warp bubble? Cool. Want to move the warp-in point closer to the button? Awesome. You want to mandate PvE inside a thing that's supposed to encourage PvP? No. Does not compute.
I would agree. However, I think once you see what the NPC "content" will look like, I think much of this fear will be mitigated. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
|
CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
929
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 16:18:00 -
[293] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Come'on Ytterbium, press the "Post" button already. Ignore the other thread, Fozz got that covered!!!! Come ON!!!!!
Had to read the 15 pages of feedback on this topic first Will post something now.
Is the anticipation killing you?
Are we there yet?
How about now?
Now? |
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
275
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 16:31:00 -
[294] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:.... Be patient, give the devs a lttle time here, I think you'll like what you see. Calling for patience from the FW crowd .. might as well try to tell the sun not to come up
Ty Delaney wrote:One: FW is a great new-player pvp option in the game... This was the reason for the plex restrictions and it held true for about a year or so, now however a 'newbie' is effectively thrown to the wolves as he'll have to contend with faction hulls, omni-present boosters and Goddess knows what else all the while being considered a dirty SPAI! 'Newbies' are actually a lot better off in RvB or even as expendable tackle in null .. just sayin'
Ty Delaney wrote:Two: Faction warfare needs less mandatory PvE, not more.... True .. but .. separating the two without adopting a 100% player driven occupancy mechanic like in null is impossible, so the question is how much is too much and what other options are there to solve the problems with the farming frigs. You'll end up doing more damage to FW were a solution adopted that forced PvP than you'd do by forcing PvE due to the fact that PvP is not and can never be balanced, not by a long-shot (impossible without crippling the game).
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Are we there yet? Was actually looking for a YouTube clip with that line as a response to Hans' call for patience, but couldn't find one annoying enough
|
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
856
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 16:49:00 -
[295] - Quote
Ty Delaney wrote:Bienator II wrote:@yiterbambam you link to this thread as "npc and complex revamp" so here is my complex revamp feedback timers should run backwards if you leave the flag Yes. Bienator II wrote: there should be a requirement to kill NPCs before finishing a plex Really have to disagree with this, for two reasons. One: FW is a great new-player pvp option in the game because it has a low barrier of entry, and a big part of that is the fact that a really new player can substantively contribute to their faction's war effort, via plexing. you can do a minor in ANY pvp fitted frig. Basically right after 1 or two days skilltime. (i am not talking about sig tanking)
Ty Delaney wrote: That is valuable -- it makes FW new-player accessible in a way that NO other major PvP activity currently is, especially when you take into consideration the fact that any comparable activity (RvB, nullsec newbie hero tackle) has a massive player-based infrastructure to keep it going. (Yes, this new-player accessibility allows vets to use new alts to cap plexes, but in addressing that, CCP needs to solve the problem in a way that retains the new player accessibility, because it is a good and important feature of FW.)
Two: Faction warfare needs less mandatory PvE, not more. Wanna turn the 'orbit zone' around the button into a warp bubble? Cool. Want to move the warp-in point closer to the button? Awesome. You want to mandate PvE inside a thing that's supposed to encourage PvP? No. Does not compute.
you won't engage anyone while tanking a major plex. or would you? Its basically kill him in 30s or you die first. All what tanking majors does is to encourage farming in 0 risk pve ships. Its exactly what this bullet point tries to fix:
Bienator II wrote: what should that fix? It should encourage plexing with pvp ships, create "hold the line" situations etc. You will lose progress if you run away and 0 risk sig tanking in alpha alts without fitting guns (speak farming) wouldn't work anymore.
a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
|
CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
931
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 16:52:00 -
[296] - Quote
Alright folks, as promised, here are some iterations we are planning for winter.
Remember, this thread will focus on FW NPCs and complexes, for War Zone Control and System Upgrade changes, please refer to this post.
- FW COMPLEX CHANGES
After reading the feedback from numerous community sources (had to read this post again to make sure we didn't forget any good point), we acknowledge that Factional Warfare complexes need to be changed and are high in our priority list.
* Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.
* Unify capture range: having 10, 20 and 30km range depending on the complex size is confusing and not needed anymore if we move the beacon closer to the room entrance. Thus we would like to have a capture range of 30km for all sized sites, so it's easier to remember for everyone.
* Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.
* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).
- FW COMPLEX NPC CHANGES
We will be talking about complex NPC changes only here - we know FW mission NPCs need to be tackled as well, but for now let's focus on one problem at a time. Before we list the changes, the main activity we see for Factional Warfare is PvP. PvE should not override PvP in this feature, as such the NPCs need to be very specialized to meet the goals you mentioned in this thread.
* NPC attribute revamp: this means two things. First, making sure no faction has an advantage over another. For example, having some factions use missiles while other have turrets is a no go. The other is to make sure we prevent, or at least significantly reduce AFK farming without hampering PvP when it does happen. Current FW complex NPCs will be scrapped and replaced with new ones that have the following characteristics:
* Very low damage output - they can kill you if you stay in the complex without taking care of them for 15 minutes, but their damage potential is so small it won't hamper players if attacked by others while capturing. * Very high speeds: no matter what your fitting is, they will catch you. No endless Benny Hill music scene anymore. * No EW: no electronical warfare or any kind, as this would be destabilizing when PvP occurs * Have Sleeper AI: that means they will change targets according to your threat * Active tanking: NPCs will have an active tanking according to the complex size they are on to discourage players to tackle larger sites with undersized ships. For example, while Minor sites could have a frigate NPC easily killed in your own frigate, Major could have battlecruiser or battleships NPCs with a active tank extremely difficult to tackle on the same frigate.
Why do the active tanking point matter you say? Because:
* NPCs contest capture timer: as long as there is a NPC in the area the capture timer is paused, just like with an enemy player. Capture timer is only paused when attacking a complex. Defending a complex with NPCs of the same faction would not cause such pause. Coupled with the active tanking point above, it means that if you can't kill the NPC reasonably fast, you can't capture the complex.
* NPC number reduction: currently NPCs spawn by wave of 3-5 on a timer. Thus if you don't kill them in time you can be overrun by a large number of them. That was particularly a problem with EW NPCs, as while a few jamming NPCs is annoying but not a big deal, having 10-15 of them jamming you would prevent you from doing anything. Our goal is to change them to spawn sequentially one at a time, so the next NPC would not arrive until the previous one was killed. Again, PvE should not take over PvP in Factional Warfare.
* NPCs only spawn when no PvP is happening: NPCs spawn at a semi-random period of time, and only when the complex is attacked while there is no defending player. Technically that means NPC prevent AFK farming. NPCs do not warp away when a player from the opposing factions arrives. However, since they have very low damage and no EW, this wouldn't be much of a problem.
* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into.
Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome |
|
fingie
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 16:57:00 -
[297] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:you can do a minor in ANY pvp fitted frig. Basically right after 1 or two days skilltime. (i am not talking about sig tanking)
This I got to see. Would you please post a fit? Something a two-day char can use? 'Cause I'm really curious to see how a two-day old pvp fit that can nevertheless kill a bunch of NPCs looks like. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
454
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:11:00 -
[298] - Quote
I really like the low dps, fast NPCs with active repping idea.
Please clarify the following.
Quote: * Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.
A "tie" goes to the faster ships that may have no incentive to engage. Super fast defender will sit on button aligned away. When opponent comes in he'll burn away and pick at targets, or just keep at range until the opponent gets bored. What is really a "win" for the attacker (they control the plex) turns into a loss (fast defender can grief with no risk). The advantage to the fast defender increases with capture range size.
Perhaps the capture timer range was originally set based on projected effective range of the ships that would enter the plex. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
856
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:12:00 -
[299] - Quote
@Ytterbimbang those fixes would already fix a lot of issues.
however a few possible problems: - bring a wt alt with you.. no npcs spawn?
i also don't like the warpin spot changes. IMO there should be more reasons why i should stay in a plex and defend my efforts when a wt warps in, otherwise they will just leave as soon something is on the dscan, move to the next system while the wt has to undo the plexing. (pvp blocker)
so rather then changing the warpin i would like to see "backwards running timers" if you leave the plex. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Dan Carter Murray
104
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:13:00 -
[300] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright folks, as promised, here are some iterations we are planning for winter. Remember, this thread will focus on FW NPCs and complexes, for War Zone Control and System Upgrade changes, please refer to this post.
- FW COMPLEX CHANGES
After reading the feedback from numerous community sources (had to read this post again to make sure we didn't forget any good point), we acknowledge that Factional Warfare complexes need to be changed and are high in our priority list.
* Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.
* Unify capture range: having 10, 20 and 30km range depending on the complex size is confusing and not needed anymore if we move the beacon closer to the room entrance. Thus we would like to have a capture range of 30km for all sized sites, so it's easier to remember for everyone.
* Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.
* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).
- FW COMPLEX NPC CHANGES
We will be talking about complex NPC changes only here - we know FW mission NPCs need to be tackled as well, but for now let's focus on one problem at a time. Before we list the changes, the main activity we see for Factional Warfare is PvP. PvE should not override PvP in this feature, as such the NPCs need to be very specialized to meet the goals you mentioned in this thread.
* NPC attribute revamp: this means two things. First, making sure no faction has an advantage over another. For example, having some factions use missiles while other have turrets is a no go. The other is to make sure we prevent, or at least significantly reduce AFK farming without hampering PvP when it does happen. Current FW complex NPCs will be scrapped and replaced with new ones that have the following characteristics:
* Very low damage output - they can kill you if you stay in the complex without taking care of them for 15 minutes, but their damage potential is so small it won't hamper players if attacked by others while capturing. * Very high speeds: no matter what your fitting is, they will catch you. No endless Benny Hill music scene anymore. * No EW: no electronical warfare or any kind, as this would be destabilizing when PvP occurs * Have Sleeper AI: that means they will change targets according to your threat * Active tanking: NPCs will have an active tanking according to the complex size they are on to discourage players to tackle larger sites with undersized ships. For example, while Minor sites could have a frigate NPC easily killed in your own frigate, Major could have battlecruiser or battleships NPCs with a active tank extremely difficult to tackle on the same frigate.
Why do the active tanking point matter you say? Because:
* NPCs contest capture timer: as long as there is a NPC in the area the capture timer is paused, just like with an enemy player. Capture timer is only paused when attacking a complex. Defending a complex with NPCs of the same faction would not cause such pause. Coupled with the active tanking point above, it means that if you can't kill the NPC reasonably fast, you can't capture the complex.
* NPC number reduction: currently NPCs spawn by wave of 3-5 on a timer. Thus if you don't kill them in time you can be overrun by a large number of them. That was particularly a problem with EW NPCs, as while a few jamming NPCs is annoying but not a big deal, having 10-15 of them jamming you would prevent you from doing anything. Our goal is to change them to spawn sequentially one at a time, so the next NPC would not arrive until the previous one was killed. Again, PvE should not take over PvP in Factional Warfare.
* NPCs only spawn when no PvP is happening: NPCs spawn at a semi-random period of time, and only when the complex is attacked while there is no defending player. Technically that means NPC prevent AFK farming. NPCs do not warp away when a player from the opposing factions arrives. However, since they have very low damage and no EW, this shouldn't be much of a problem.
* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into.
Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome
love it.
please test it to hell and back though before implementing.
let's have a release without issues! |
|
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1186
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:14:00 -
[301] - Quote
Bienator II wrote: so rather then changing the warpin i would like to see "backwards running timers" if you leave the plex.
That idea is definitely on our radar but we have not committed to it yet internally, still being discussed. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
265
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:15:00 -
[302] - Quote
Amazing changes.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:* Have Sleeper AI: that means they will change targets according to your threat
...
NPCs do not warp away when a player from the opposing factions arrives. However, since they have very low damage and no EW, this shouldn't be much of a problem.
How apt are they to kill drones? |
Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
49
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:15:00 -
[303] - Quote
Generally sounds really good.
With capture buttons (and definitely the capture range) being right on the warp-in beacon, won't all plex fights just be close range blapping?
Also, did I miss anything on whether a timer will count back down if no attackers are in range? (there was quite a lot to read through over the two threads) |
Jack bubu
GK inc. Pandemic Legion
360
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:18:00 -
[304] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:@Ytterbimbang those fixes would already fix a lot of issues.
however a few possible problems: - bring a wt alt with you.. no npcs spawn?
i also don't like the warpin spot changes. IMO there should be more reasons why i should stay in a plex and defend my efforts when a wt warps in, otherwise they will just leave as soon something is on close range dscan, move to the next system while the wt has to undo the plexing. (pvp blocker)
so rather then changing the warpin i would like to see "backwards running timers" if you leave the plex. yes but when your wt alt prevents nps from spawning he will pause the capturing himself, if he leaves the npcs spawns :) |
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:19:00 -
[305] - Quote
It all looks good!
Except there's something weird going on. This:
Quote: * Very low damage output - they can kill you if you stay in the complex without taking care of them for 15 minutes.
Would seem to imply that the NPC rats build up over time. (They would have to, as otherwise a 'very low damage' npc isn't going to ever break an active tanked ship.)
But this...
Quote: * NPC number reduction: currently NPCs spawn by wave of 3-5 on a timer. Thus if you don't kill them in time you can be overrun by a large number of them. Our goal is to change them to spawn sequentially one at a time, so the next NPC would not arrive until the previous one was killed.
Seems to imply they do not ever build up.
So... how is a single "very-low-damage" NPC going to kill a single or dual-repped incursus who just chooses to ignore it?
(Yes, I know he'll never capture the plex if he doesn't kill it, but he still doesn't NEED to kill it to live.)
Related question: If NPCs put a site into contested mode, and they respawn replacements when you kill the current one, how long is (for example) a 10-minute plex really going to take, with these changes? How much time from a dead NPC to the new spawn? |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
454
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:19:00 -
[306] - Quote
Axl Borlara wrote: With capture buttons (and definitely the capture range) being right on the warp-in beacon, won't all plex fights just be close range blapping?
It just changes the dynamic a bit. The short range solo guy can sit on warpin and run timer now without having to make a choice of setting up properly for a fight or running the timer. However, fast guys can sit on timer and burn away when enemy comes in. For gangs, one fast guy can sit on timer, and the rest of the gang can sit at whatever range they like.
Just don't be a slow, long range solo guy. You're dead. |
Dan Carter Murray
104
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:19:00 -
[307] - Quote
actually...on second thought, doesn't this decrease the BC usage since there is no plex which caps out at BC hull size? (in other words, Large complexes are the only ones which BCs can enter, but BSs can also enter...along with everything else) |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1186
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:21:00 -
[308] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Amazing changes. CCP Ytterbium wrote:* Have Sleeper AI: that means they will change targets according to your threat
...
NPCs do not warp away when a player from the opposing factions arrives. However, since they have very low damage and no EW, this shouldn't be much of a problem. How apt are they to kill drones?
With the sleeper AI we basically have a slider to adjust their hatred of drones, we can take them all the way from "Member of NPCs for the ethical treatment of drones" to "Drones killed my parents and forced me into life as a sociopathic superhero" and anywhere in between.
So we'll tweak based on test server feedback. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
Roddex
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:22:00 -
[309] - Quote
Will the cruiser complex (Medium) allow Tech 3 cruisers? |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke
319
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:22:00 -
[310] - Quote
the low dps idea is a bad one.
Let them fight like lions but step back once a friendly capsuleer arrives |
|
Mike deVoid
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:23:00 -
[311] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into. [/list] Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome
I probably shouldn't expose this but I currently benefit from being in Caldari FW and having very high Gal and Min faction standings (I used to be in Gal FW 2 years ago). Currently this means that offensive plexing is easy since I never get attacked by the NPCs, but conversely it means I can never run a defensive plex.
What is going to happen to me when you 'fix' this? |
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:23:00 -
[312] - Quote
Roddex wrote:Will the cruiser complex (Medium) allow Tech 3 cruisers?
... well, it doesn't currently allows tech 2 cruisers, so... |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
856
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:24:00 -
[313] - Quote
Jack bubu wrote:Bienator II wrote:@Ytterbimbang those fixes would already fix a lot of issues.
however a few possible problems: - bring a wt alt with you.. no npcs spawn? ...
yes but when your wt alt prevents nps from spawning he will pause the capturing himself, if he leaves the npcs spawns :)
oh right. that fixes it. thanks! a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1187
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:25:00 -
[314] - Quote
Mike deVoid wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into. [/list] Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome I probably shouldn't expose this but I currently benefit from being in Caldari FW and having very high Gal and Min faction standings (I used to be in Gal FW 2 years ago). Currently this means that offensive plexing is easy since I never get attacked by the NPCs, but conversely it means I can never run a defensive plex. What is going to happen to me when you 'fix' this?
We know about that, don't worry.
The NPCs should always consider faction membership above standings after the patch, so they'll shoot you like they shoot everyone in your faction. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2807
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:27:00 -
[315] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
With the sleeper AI we basically have a slider to adjust their hatred of drones, we can take them all the way from "Member of NPCs for the ethical treatment of drones" to "Drones killed my parents and forced me into life as a sociopathic superhero" and anywhere in between.
So we'll tweak based on test server feedback.
I am a card-carrying member of PETD. Please don't hurt the drones, Gallente ships have it bad enough as it is. You gave us the cool Tristan, don't ban it from the plexes! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Jack bubu
GK inc. Pandemic Legion
360
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:29:00 -
[316] - Quote
Ty Delaney wrote:Roddex wrote:Will the cruiser complex (Medium) allow Tech 3 cruisers? ... well, it doesn't currently allows tech 2 cruisers, so... but it will after these changes. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2807
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:30:00 -
[317] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:The NPCs should always consider faction membership above standings after the patch, so they'll shoot you like they shoot everyone in your faction.
YAAAAAAAAY!!!! An end to "Standings tanking" !! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
275
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:36:00 -
[318] - Quote
Me again o/
Capture beacon location: Bad idea. Assaulting a plex occupied by an enemy is insanely hard as is, this will effectively put all 'defenders' on the warp-in where they get 2-3s worth of "free" dps due to grid load and such. It needs to be 20km+ for it to have a positive impact on PvP, the farmer will be unaffected as he will warp when you land on gate instead of when you land inside so they'll still be buzzing around. End result will be an amplification of current trend when assaulting, overwhelm with stupidly high numbers = no fight.
Unify capture range: 30km is too much and will kill fights in minors entirely. Combined with the above you have zero hope of evicting say an Arty Thrasher swarm (which are probably still the most common spam ship). If it must be uniform then 20km is much better, especially when combined with 20km beacon location.
Increase contested range: Goddess no .. or rather not without additional tweaks, particularly to grid size. Might just be twitches left over from the old Dramiel's Benny'ing all over the place but this will not promote fights as the guy on the button will not chase a silly bugger all over creation just to get the seconds ticking when he can just as easily go to another plex.
Complex size and name changes: Good. Allow rookie ships in all sizes and you are set.
FW COMPLEX NPC CHANGESHoly crap! Thought it a long-shot when I and others suggested creating a FW specific sub-set .. pure :AWESOMESAUCE:
* NPCs contest capture timer: MOAR SAUCE!
* NPC number reduction: With tanks and better AI, numbers wont matter much so good on you.
* NPCs only spawn when no PvP is happening: Be careful with how this is implemented, I foresee alts in opposing militia being used to turn off spawns .. quadruple check the code before launching it. Also, if they are not to have eWar then why did you use it above as justification for reducing numbers .. hmmmmmmm
* NPC standing aggression revamp: And there you have it folks, "Blurry" in Iceland is the same broken, borked, unwieldy etc. in the rest of the world!
Good call. You are working on aggression mechanics at any rate so better have a strong back-bone that can be used elsewhere than try adding some ham-fisted "attack everything" line to FW rats. Just do us a favour, declare the obvious abuses a No-No until the system is in place and give those GM types something to do while swilling what is likely atrocious coffee (office coffee = *yuck*). |
Alli Othman
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:36:00 -
[319] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:@Ytterbimbang those fixes would already fix a lot of issues.
however a few possible problems: - bring a wt alt with you.. no npcs spawn?
Did you even think before you said that? The contestion won't run with a WT in the plex. |
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins Amarr 7th Fleet
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:40:00 -
[320] - Quote
Sleeper AI is very good idea, low damage is not. Even with these changes there will be a lot of "we plex this system, the enemy can't bring enough numbers, they leave us alone" situtation. Basically there will be a lot of pve. If those NPCs can actually kill me (scram, web, neut, jam, td, etc.), it makes it risky and therefore more FUN.
Also could you please somehow break the off grid boosters if a fleet member is in a plex? It seems awfully unfair that I have a faction frigate in a minor, but my Tengu cant come to help when I am fighting an enemy frigate and his Loki.
http://i.imgur.com/QLit4.gif |
|
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
265
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:43:00 -
[321] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Capture beacon location: Bad idea. Assaulting a plex occupied by an enemy is insanely hard as is, this will effectively put all 'defenders' on the warp-in where they get 2-3s worth of "free" dps due to grid load and such.
There's at least 2-3 seconds of an invulnerability timer after you land, isn't there? It's something that rarely matters, but I was in a fleet once where we were instructed to wait on moving or activating any module so as to not break this invulnerability. |
Mike deVoid
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:46:00 -
[322] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Mike deVoid wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into. [/list] Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome I probably shouldn't expose this but I currently benefit from being in Caldari FW and having very high Gal and Min faction standings (I used to be in Gal FW 2 years ago). Currently this means that offensive plexing is easy since I never get attacked by the NPCs, but conversely it means I can never run a defensive plex. What is going to happen to me when you 'fix' this? We know about that, don't worry. The NPCs should always consider faction membership above standings after the patch, so they'll shoot you like they shoot everyone in your faction.
And for defensive plexing I won't get shot either?
The other aspect is that with the forced killing of NPCs now you will permanently mess up your faction standings locking you out of highsec even after you leave FW. It took me a long while to get my Caldari standings back up high enough that I could visit Jita again. I'd rather not lock myself out of highsec forever just for engaging in PVP in FW in my past. I can't run datacentre agents more than once so... find a solution for this please? Or tell me you like that there are permanent consequences for having picked a side in FW that persist after leaving?
|
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
115
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:53:00 -
[323] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Mike deVoid wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into. [/list] Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome I probably shouldn't expose this but I currently benefit from being in Caldari FW and having very high Gal and Min faction standings (I used to be in Gal FW 2 years ago). Currently this means that offensive plexing is easy since I never get attacked by the NPCs, but conversely it means I can never run a defensive plex. What is going to happen to me when you 'fix' this? We know about that, don't worry. The NPCs should always consider faction membership above standings after the patch, so they'll shoot you like they shoot everyone in your faction.
On a related note, If we must now kill the rats to capture plexs, is there any thought being given to the issue of the terrible, terrible grind that must be done if one leaves FW to get standings back just to bad with the opposing faction? |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
275
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:55:00 -
[324] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:Capture beacon location: Bad idea. Assaulting a plex occupied by an enemy is insanely hard as is, this will effectively put all 'defenders' on the warp-in where they get 2-3s worth of "free" dps due to grid load and such. There's at least 2-3 seconds of an invulnerability timer after you land, isn't there? It's something that rarely matters, but I was in a fleet once where we were instructed to wait on moving or activating any module so as to not break this invulnerability. Then it has been added after I quit the plexing game some two years ago, cannot count the number of times I have saved a pod after ship popped without the ability to move much less fight.
But raises a tasty idea: Five second gate cloak when coming through plex gate. Double (or triple) width of 'spawn sphere'. ie make it a 5-7.5km radius rather than 2.5km and you'll suddenly have a fighting chance against even numbers who are entrenched inside plex.
|
Dan Carter Murray
104
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:56:00 -
[325] - Quote
Manssell wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Mike deVoid wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into. [/list] Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome I probably shouldn't expose this but I currently benefit from being in Caldari FW and having very high Gal and Min faction standings (I used to be in Gal FW 2 years ago). Currently this means that offensive plexing is easy since I never get attacked by the NPCs, but conversely it means I can never run a defensive plex. What is going to happen to me when you 'fix' this? We know about that, don't worry. The NPCs should always consider faction membership above standings after the patch, so they'll shoot you like they shoot everyone in your faction. On a related note, If we must now kill the rats to capture plexs, is there any thought being given to the issue of the terrible, terrible grind that must be done if one leaves FW to get standings back just to bad with the opposing faction?
you knew the repercussions when you joined FW.
|
FistyMcBumBasher
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:57:00 -
[326] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: * Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).
I am not sure what the plans are with the t1 cruisers, but with the change of t2 cruisers being allowed into mediums, logistics ships and recons are going to become more common. This will make people more risk averse, thereby decreasing the likelyhood that a gang will jump into another unless there are have equal numbers of logi/recons on both sides.
A more elegant solution would to make T2 cruisers in line with battlecruisers. T2 frigates are not allowed into the frigate sized plex, so why should t2 cruisers be allowed into T1? |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
145
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 18:00:00 -
[327] - Quote
Is it possible to get rid of acceleration gates? Instead just now allowing ships to warp the beacon? Chalk it up to the mass of the ship not being able to generate a proper warp bubble or something like that. Gates discourage PVP. Just let frigates warp in on other frigates! |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
265
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 18:02:00 -
[328] - Quote
Manssell wrote:On a related note, If we must now kill the rats to capture plexs, is there any thought being given to the issue of the terrible, terrible grind that must be done if one leaves FW to get standings back just to bad with the opposing faction?
Even if you don't shoot the rats, you'll get promotions from capturing plexes. Later promotions give you the largest faction standings in the game; the earliest promotions are competitive with what you'd get from running the SoE epic arc. So promotions destroy enemy standings all by themselves, and making you kill rats to plex is not really piling on new diplomatic troubles for you.
Train Diplomacy (a rank 1 skill); shop in Jita by just flying in (faction navy only web, and are entirely evaded by agile ships) and buying stuff and having an alt/courier service ship it out. Or even have an alt do the purchasing and contracting both, without ever leaving jita.
What you're really restricted from is missioning, incursions, and public events - stuff that requires you to hang aronud in a system, rather than move through it - in half of highsec. |
Durrr
ReD or DeaD
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 18:21:00 -
[329] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Amazing changes. CCP Ytterbium wrote:* Have Sleeper AI: that means they will change targets according to your threat
...
NPCs do not warp away when a player from the opposing factions arrives. However, since they have very low damage and no EW, this shouldn't be much of a problem. How apt are they to kill drones?
Yeah, the drones thing could be huge, especially for pvp, as not much dmg is needed to pop a drone. |
Durrr
ReD or DeaD
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 18:27:00 -
[330] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Me again o/
Capture beacon location: Bad idea. Assaulting a plex occupied by an enemy is insanely hard as is, this will effectively put all 'defenders' on the warp-in where they get 2-3s worth of "free" dps due to grid load and such. It needs to be 20km+ for it to have a positive impact on PvP, the farmer will be unaffected as he will warp when you land on gate instead of when you land inside so they'll still be buzzing around. End result will be an amplification of current trend when assaulting, overwhelm with stupidly high numbers = no fight.
When was the last time you were in a fleet fight in a plex? Everyone sits at range of the warpin anyways (with the button currently 60KM off) except for 1 person running it for the benefit of the fleet.
|
|
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
84
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 18:33:00 -
[331] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Bienator II wrote: so rather then changing the warpin i would like to see "backwards running timers" if you leave the plex.
That idea is definitely on our radar but we have not committed to it yet internally, still being discussed.
I think you should seriously consider it, because without it the current changes still don't really fix the problem that it is more time efficient to defend your space by dplexing than driving out offensive plexers. While I'm quite happy to see the end of gunless plexing frigates, I expect that it will still be trivial to run small plexes in a destroyer. I don't want to see fruitlessly pursuing stabbed merlins replaced by fruitlessly pursuing nanothrashers (granted, they will be much easier to catch that frigates, but the point is that driving someone out of a plex should result in them losing at least some of their forward progress). |
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
115
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 18:36:00 -
[332] - Quote
Dan Carter Murray wrote:Manssell wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Mike deVoid wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into. [/list] Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome I probably shouldn't expose this but I currently benefit from being in Caldari FW and having very high Gal and Min faction standings (I used to be in Gal FW 2 years ago). Currently this means that offensive plexing is easy since I never get attacked by the NPCs, but conversely it means I can never run a defensive plex. What is going to happen to me when you 'fix' this? We know about that, don't worry. The NPCs should always consider faction membership above standings after the patch, so they'll shoot you like they shoot everyone in your faction. On a related note, If we must now kill the rats to capture plexs, is there any thought being given to the issue of the terrible, terrible grind that must be done if one leaves FW to get standings back just to bad with the opposing faction? you knew the repercussions when you joined FW.
I know that. That's why I waited so long in my Eve life to finally join FW. I had some things to finish up. But lots of newer people I have been meeting don't understand what they are getting into in regards to the pain in the butt it's going to be for them after they leave FW. Of corse there is consequences for them, but the grind in this game is bad. But I suppose this is one of those "eve is hard for the sake of being hard arguments"? |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
454
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 18:40:00 -
[333] - Quote
Quote: * Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).
Leave "unrestricted" to bunker busts. New L4 ought to be old L3. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
197
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 18:41:00 -
[334] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:* Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.
So far I LOVE everything about this but this:
a) If the pilot goes "off grid" are they still considered in the plex zone? (To prevent an enemy player from just burning away in a 8k/s dramiel forever.
b) System defence is possible with a super nano ship that runs forever with offgrid boost. Mix this with the grid mechanics and it can get a little exploitable in the sense that defence is no longer pvp but "run around and around and around until the opponent gets bored".
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
454
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 18:48:00 -
[335] - Quote
FistyMcBumBasher wrote:A more elegant solution would to make T2 cruisers in line with battlecruisers. T2 frigates are not allowed into the frigate sized plex, so why should t2 cruisers be allowed into T1? This will definitely change the dynamics of the fights. The space for successful engagements with T1 cruisers and non-nanofag BCs has been removed. Logi/ECM ftw in this new FW.
There is no need to change plex entrance requirements now that the T1 frigs have been rebalanced. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
73
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 19:15:00 -
[336] - Quote
I do not feel the capture beacon location should change, at least not as much as you are suggesting.
At the moment when I pick up a ship on scan I have to decide to close to the beacon or stay and run the timer it will be easy to camp the warp in. I often camp the warp in any way, the npcGÇÖs can be killed and then I can run the timer if things are quiet.
The main reason I donGÇÖt like this is that currently if I pick up multiple ships on scan and then one warps in I can still choose to fight in the knowledge subsequent ships at least have some distance to travel. I donGÇÖt think lots of blobbing on the warp in will be fun.
I also feel that being able to contest the beacon from any point in the plex is exploitable, currently if someone gets range within a plex I can still approach and start counting down the timer they then are forced into engaging or risk losing the plex, the increased beacon activation range should give enough distance.
It is the NPC speed, tanking and timer changes that will work against afk farming plexers not moving the beacon.
I also do not like the ship restriction changes.
I can get T1 cruiser fights I can get frigate fights. T1 cruisers will be made obsolete in the plexes and the new small size will just be full of assault ships reducing the role of destoyers and even navy frigs.
|
Mike deVoid
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 19:25:00 -
[337] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Manssell wrote:On a related note, If we must now kill the rats to capture plexs, is there any thought being given to the issue of the terrible, terrible grind that must be done if one leaves FW to get standings back just to bad with the opposing faction? Even if you don't shoot the rats, you'll get promotions from capturing plexes. Later promotions give you the largest faction standings in the game; the earliest promotions are competitive with what you'd get from running the SoE epic arc. So promotions destroy enemy standings all by themselves, and making you kill rats to plex is not really piling on new diplomatic troubles for you. Train Diplomacy (a rank 1 skill); shop in Jita by just flying in (faction navy only web, and are entirely evaded by agile ships) and buying stuff and having an alt/courier service ship it out. Or even have an alt do the purchasing and contracting both, without ever leaving jita. What you're really restricted from is missioning, incursions, and public events - stuff that requires you to hang aronud in a system, rather than move through it - in half of highsec.
You do not get promotions just for capturing plexes. |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
265
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 19:32:00 -
[338] - Quote
Mike deVoid wrote:You do not get promotions just for capturing plexes.
I did not imagine all of the "You have been promoted." notifications that arrived the instant I captured a plex. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
145
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 19:33:00 -
[339] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:Is it possible to get rid of acceleration gates? Instead just now allowing ships to warp the beacon? Chalk it up to the mass of the ship not being able to generate a proper warp bubble or something like that. Gates discourage PVP. Just let frigates warp in on other frigates!
I got it! Anyone can warp to the beacon but ships not meeting the requirements get dropped out of warp 500km or more from the beacon. Think of the beacon having a large warp bubble that stops that ships from entering it. You already have warp bubbles that drop people out of warp at a distance, so this is technically doable. Just need a few if's and else's with a large radius and BAM! no more acceleration gates.
Soundwave, I'm still waiting to hear back about my start date. |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
109
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 20:01:00 -
[340] - Quote
I'm with XG on the capture/contest range, making it 30km all around and being able to contest as soon as you're on grid gives a buff to kitey faggots that don't need any more buffs to their play style. Is there any reason why you guys don't want to make the timer run back when someone is not actively running it? |
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
197
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 20:47:00 -
[341] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:I'm with XG on the capture/contest range, making it 30km all around and being able to contest as soon as you're on grid gives a buff to kitey faggots that don't need any more buffs to their play style. Is there any reason why you guys don't want to make the timer run back when someone is not actively running it?
Well, it's just one more reason to stop flying useless blaster boats :) |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
197
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 20:50:00 -
[342] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Mike deVoid wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into. [/list] Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome I probably shouldn't expose this but I currently benefit from being in Caldari FW and having very high Gal and Min faction standings (I used to be in Gal FW 2 years ago). Currently this means that offensive plexing is easy since I never get attacked by the NPCs, but conversely it means I can never run a defensive plex. What is going to happen to me when you 'fix' this? We know about that, don't worry. The NPCs should always consider faction membership above standings after the patch, so they'll shoot you like they shoot everyone in your faction.
What about diagonal militias?
If I am a pilot in the minmatar militia defensively capturing a gallente plex, but my gallente standing is only +3, the "friendly" rats in a major plex will shoot at me even though I am counting the timer down for them.
Will this be fixed? Or put another way, will my faction membership in the minmatar militia count? |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
526
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 21:06:00 -
[343] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Mike deVoid wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into. [/list] Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome I probably shouldn't expose this but I currently benefit from being in Caldari FW and having very high Gal and Min faction standings (I used to be in Gal FW 2 years ago). Currently this means that offensive plexing is easy since I never get attacked by the NPCs, but conversely it means I can never run a defensive plex. What is going to happen to me when you 'fix' this? We know about that, don't worry. The NPCs should always consider faction membership above standings after the patch, so they'll shoot you like they shoot everyone in your faction.
Do you guys feel that defensive plexing may end up being the new farming flavor of the month? Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Cabal |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
456
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 21:13:00 -
[344] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Do you guys feel that defensive plexing may end up being the new farming flavor of the month? At least the farmers will now have to bring the appropriately sized ships for the job. Their defending alts (activated at about 95% contested level), however, will remain in fast frigs. Farmers are gonna farm. Farming will be a bit harder in the next patch. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2812
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 21:21:00 -
[345] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Aryth wrote:Do you guys feel that defensive plexing may end up being the new farming flavor of the month? At least the farmers will now have to bring the appropriately sized ships for the job. Their defending alts (activated at about 95% contested level), however, will remain in fast frigs. Farmers are gonna farm. Farming will be a bit harder in the next patch.
My message to CCP is to have rats spawn in the plexes according to who's inside - I don't know yet whether this is technically feasible or not, but I'm heavily encouraging it. What is needed here is that if I'm running a defensive plex, There are Amarr attacker spawns entering periodically. If I'm running an offensive plex, there are amarr defender spawns entering periodically.
The devil will be in the AI / aggro / programming, but this should be the absolute design goal to strive for if at all technically feasible. The last thing I want to see is the farming issue moved to D-plexing but not eliminated entirely. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Mike deVoid
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
19
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Posted - 2012.08.31 21:38:00 -
[346] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Aryth wrote:Do you guys feel that defensive plexing may end up being the new farming flavor of the month? At least the farmers will now have to bring the appropriately sized ships for the job. Their defending alts (activated at about 95% contested level), however, will remain in fast frigs. Farmers are gonna farm. Farming will be a bit harder in the next patch. My message to CCP is to have rats spawn in the plexes according to who's inside - I don't know yet whether this is technically feasible or not, but I'm heavily encouraging it. What is needed here is that if I'm running a defensive plex, There are Amarr attacker spawns entering periodically. If I'm running an offensive plex, there are amarr defender spawns entering periodically. The devil will be in the AI / aggro / programming, but this should be the absolute design goal to strive for if at all technically feasible. The last thing I want to see is the farming issue moved to D-plexing but not eliminated entirely.
Well you couldn't farm very easily since you'd get very little at low % of contestation. |
Mackenzie Ayres
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 22:09:00 -
[347] - Quote
As per my previous post, can we get the timers moved to the HUD?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1798235#post1798235
Mac |
Durrr
ReD or DeaD
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 22:10:00 -
[348] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access). Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome
While I have no problem with the "rookie" and new "small" plexes, I have some comments/questions in regards to the new medium, and new large plexes.
First of all, will the new large plex still have an acceleration gate that keeps out: A: Cynos B: Capitals C: Assigned Fighters from Carriers.
Or will they be more like the rarely seen unrestricted majors of today?
Secondly, I have a 'meh" feeling to the proposed medium plex change. I have a feeling that T2 cruisers would make t1 cruisers obsolete (since they cannot enter any smaller plex, and are at a rather large disadvantage to their t2 counterparts in mediums) at least with the way the ships are now (after cruiser tiercide, things may be different). IMO, t2 cruisers are much more on even footing with battlecruisers. If you really wanted a plex size which had t2/t3 cruisers, but not battlecruisers, I would urge that there remains a seperate plex for just t1 cruisers and below.
My ideal situation would be: Rookie Plex- T1 Frigs Small Plex: Faction/T2 Frigs/Dessies + Rookie plex ships Red Headed Stepchild Plex: T1 Cruisers + Small Plex ships Medium Plex: perhaps similar to today's large plexes, although I wouldn't be offended if they didn't allow battlecruisers. Large Plexes: Unrestricted sub-caps and on a very rare occasion Giant Plexes: Completely Unrestricted- I would still like to keep the plex free of cynos though, so that if someone wants to bring capitals in, they would have to cyno them somewhere other than on top of you, and then warp them in. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2812
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 22:49:00 -
[349] - Quote
Durrr, lets have a bit of faith in CCP Fozzie - the reason you feel Tech 2 frigs aren't OP in small plexes is because Tech 1 frigs have been balanced properly and now are very much viable alongside their tech 2 counterparts.
Once tech 1 cruisers (including logi) are buffed to the same level of usefulness (especially in terms of bang-for-your-buck) as tech 1 frigates, you'll see them fielded just as much even if tech 2 cruisers are allowed in medium plexes.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Durrr
ReD or DeaD
1
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Posted - 2012.08.31 23:44:00 -
[350] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Durrr, lets have a bit of faith in CCP Fozzie - the reason you feel Tech 2 frigs aren't OP in small plexes is because Tech 1 frigs have been balanced properly and now are very much viable alongside their tech 2 counterparts.
Once tech 1 cruisers (including logi) are buffed to the same level of usefulness (especially in terms of bang-for-your-buck) as tech 1 frigates, you'll see them fielded just as much even if tech 2 cruisers are allowed in medium plexes.
I did point out that this is how I felt about how the cruisers are now (pre-tiercied). The fact remains though that if they implement these changes for winter, it will be at least 6 months (if not a year) before the cruisers get some love, during which time nobody will really fly t1 cruisers in mediums.
I will take your word though Hans, and give 'em some faith. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1193
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 23:50:00 -
[351] - Quote
Durrr wrote: it will be at least 6 months (if not a year) before the cruisers get some love
Sure about that? Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
73
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 23:51:00 -
[352] - Quote
I don't feel tech 2 frigates are balanced in the proposed small plexes and certainly not against Tech 1 frigates even the rebalanced ones. Assault ships will be the new top frig, even destroyers the cheap pvp option for countering frigs will have a hard time especially those with restricted damage types against racial resists.-á
I certainly hope that there is not the kind of power creep that Tech one cruisers can compete with HACs. Buffing T1 cruises would mean they are more viable along side navy and pirate cruisers but I would consider ships like the vexor and thorax quite well balanced and still far off the HAC versions whose nearest T1 competition is really battlecruisers. |
Hoarr
RPS holdings
36
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 00:03:00 -
[353] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Durrr wrote: it will be at least 6 months (if not a year) before the cruisers get some love Sure about that?
THIS. This is the greatest thing I've heard in EvE all year. CRUISER LOVE FOR THE WINTER WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
822
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 00:23:00 -
[354] - Quote
I can't Like + this post enough.
Seriously, great stuff!!!
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright folks, as promised, here are some iterations we are planning for winter. Remember, this thread will focus on FW NPCs and complexes, for War Zone Control and System Upgrade changes, please refer to this post.
- FW COMPLEX CHANGES
After reading the feedback from numerous community sources (had to read this post again to make sure we didn't forget any good point), we acknowledge that Factional Warfare complexes need to be changed and are high in our priority list.
* Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.
* Unify capture range: having 10, 20 and 30km range depending on the complex size is confusing and not needed anymore if we move the beacon closer to the room entrance. Thus we would like to have a capture range of 30km for all sized sites, so it's easier to remember for everyone.
* Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.
* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).
- FW COMPLEX NPC CHANGES
We will be talking about complex NPC changes only here - we know FW mission NPCs need to be tackled as well, but for now let's focus on one problem at a time. Before we list the changes, the main activity we see for Factional Warfare is PvP. PvE should not override PvP in this feature, as such the NPCs need to be very specialized to meet the goals you mentioned in this thread.
* NPC attribute revamp: this means two things. First, making sure no faction has an advantage over another. For example, having some factions use missiles while other have turrets is a no go. The other is to make sure we prevent, or at least significantly reduce AFK farming without hampering PvP when it does happen. Current FW complex NPCs will be scrapped and replaced with new ones that have the following characteristics:
* Very low damage output - they can kill you if you stay in the complex without taking care of them for 15 minutes, but their damage potential is so small it won't hamper players if attacked by others while capturing. * Very high speeds: no matter what your fitting is, they will catch you. No endless Benny Hill music scene anymore. * No EW: no electronical warfare or any kind, as this would be destabilizing when PvP occurs * Have Sleeper AI: that means they will change targets according to your threat * Active tanking: NPCs will have an active tanking according to the complex size they are on to discourage players to tackle larger sites with undersized ships. For example, while Minor sites could have a frigate NPC easily killed in your own frigate, Major could have battlecruiser or battleships NPCs with a active tank extremely difficult to tackle on the same frigate.
Why do the active tanking point matter you say? Because:
* NPCs contest capture timer: as long as there is a NPC in the area the capture timer is paused, just like with an enemy player. Capture timer is only paused when attacking a complex. Defending a complex with NPCs of the same faction would not cause such pause. Coupled with the active tanking point above, it means that if you can't kill the NPC reasonably fast, you can't capture the complex.
* NPC number reduction: currently NPCs spawn by wave of 3-5 on a timer. Thus if you don't kill them in time you can be overrun by a large number of them. That was particularly a problem with EW NPCs, as while a few jamming NPCs is annoying but not a big deal, having 10-15 of them jamming you would prevent you from doing anything. Our goal is to change them to spawn sequentially one at a time, so the next NPC would not arrive until the previous one was killed. Again, PvE should not take over PvP in Factional Warfare.
* NPCs only spawn when no PvP is happening: NPCs spawn at a semi-random period of time, and only when the complex is attacked while there is no defending player. Technically that means NPC prevent AFK farming. NPCs do not warp away when a player from the opposing factions arrives. However, since they have very low damage and no EW, this shouldn't be much of a problem.
* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into.
Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Ovali Garsk
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.09.01 00:32:00 -
[355] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:* Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily. * Unify capture range: having 10, 20 and 30km range depending on the complex size is confusing and not needed anymore if we move the beacon closer to the room entrance. Thus we would like to have a capture range of 30km for all sized sites, so it's easier to remember for everyone. * Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused. Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome
Ok, I love the NPC changes.
Love the move of the capture button and the increase to 30km (for kiting style plexers).
But the increased contested range leaves me bewildered. Isn't that exploitable? What would stop sbd. from grabbing a fleet interceptor/Dram and essentially forever keep sbd. from contesting that plex. In ordinary circumstances you'd just move on, i guess (and let him waste his time), but what about a crucial moment, when people are trying to get a system into or out of vulnerable? Grab a few pilots and forever stop a those plexes from being completed?
Maybe I am missing something.
Other than that, good changes. Love the new iterating CCP. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
145
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 01:02:00 -
[356] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Durrr wrote: it will be at least 6 months (if not a year) before the cruisers get some love Sure about that?
Look what you did Durrr, you made Fozzie mad! Now he is going to hold out on rebalancing the cruisers for two years. Good job. Good job.
Fozzie, you have no officially gone on the record saying that you will fix cruisers by Winter ;-)
I know, I know, I have issues and should see a therapist about my trolling issues. |
Sven Viko VIkolander
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
19
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Posted - 2012.09.01 02:35:00 -
[357] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Kuehnelt wrote:Amazing changes. CCP Ytterbium wrote:* Have Sleeper AI: that means they will change targets according to your threat
...
NPCs do not warp away when a player from the opposing factions arrives. However, since they have very low damage and no EW, this shouldn't be much of a problem. How apt are they to kill drones? With the sleeper AI we basically have a slider to adjust their hatred of drones, we can take them all the way from "Member of NPCs for the ethical treatment of drones" to "Drones killed my parents and forced me into life as a sociopathic superhero" and anywhere in between. So we'll tweak based on test server feedback.
lolololol |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
595
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 03:22:00 -
[358] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:I don't feel tech 2 frigates are balanced in the proposed small plexes and certainly not against Tech 1 frigates even the rebalanced ones. Assault ships will be the new top frig, even destroyers the cheap pvp option for countering frigs will have a hard time especially those with restricted damage types against racial resists.-á
I certainly hope that there is not the kind of power creep that Tech one cruisers can compete with HACs. Buffing T1 cruises would mean they are more viable along side navy and pirate cruisers but I would consider ships like the vexor and thorax quite well balanced and still far off the HAC versions whose nearest T1 competition is really battlecruisers.
I too think the current plex restrictions are better than the proposed new ones. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
595
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Posted - 2012.09.01 03:26:00 -
[359] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:I do not feel the capture beacon location should change, at least not as much as you are suggesting.
Yeah it just means I will lose a few more ruptures to cynabals (and now vagabonds) unless I am sitting there spamming the dscan like a ninny.
Also like you said the distance helped for when blobs jumped in. Keeping everything right at the warp in will lead to more ganks but it won't lead to any more decent fights.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
595
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Posted - 2012.09.01 03:31:00 -
[360] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Durrr wrote: it will be at least 6 months (if not a year) before the cruisers get some love Sure about that?
Unless they are going to be able to compete with hacs its hard to see what place they will have in faction war.
These faction plex restriction changes seem like a big boost to t2 industry. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Deena Amaj
Community for Justice Resurrection by Election
30
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Posted - 2012.09.01 03:34:00 -
[361] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Durrr wrote: it will be at least 6 months (if not a year) before the cruisers get some love Sure about that? Look what you did Durrr, you made Fozzie mad! Now he is going to hold out on rebalancing the cruisers for two years. Good job. Good job. Fozzie, you have no officially gone on the record saying that you will fix cruisers by Winter ;-) I know, I know, I have issues and should see a therapist about my trolling issues.
Actually, LOL. I didn't think about it that way. You actually thought out of the box there dude , don't see the therapist. ;P confirthisposmed
I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
595
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 03:39:00 -
[362] - Quote
Overall these changes to npcs are very good. This will allow people to pvp in plexes without the rats being a major nuisance. Thats half the battle won!
But really the plexes will still best be done in pve ships and by avoiding pvp.
Until we get a notification system and/or some sort of timer countback (even jsut a couple of minutes back) that won't change. Its too bad these ideas aren't front and center for winter as they address the fact that faction war is really a carebear race.
The whole moving the button closer to warp in is a bad idea though. If i wanted to compulsively hit dscan I would be in a wormhole.
As far as stopping the timer as long as you are anywhere on grid, I am not sure I get why you are doing that. Not only will kiting ships get an unnecessary boost but, can people just cloak up and go afk preventing the plex to be captured and therefore new ones to spawn?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
235
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Posted - 2012.09.01 08:33:00 -
[363] - Quote
T3 ships can enter mediums?
Do missiles hit those FAST ships you are talking about or can any gun track those without webbing?
This may end AFK farming yes, but question is that who will take these anymore and why?
Combined with new rules from FW: I-hub and system upgrades thread, i do not see any reason why or how anyone will or could take systems anymore?
My vision what will happen is that no one is going to take systems anymore, everyone goes back to missioning until those are nerfed.
After that everyone just quits militia.
There is no reason to take systems and there is no reason to fight for plexes also it is too hard to take those with these rules so no one bothers.
I might missed great wisdom of these changes? |
Nyla Skin
Maximum fun chamber
81
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Posted - 2012.09.01 09:33:00 -
[364] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
* Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.
Personally I hate Eve for forcing all fights to happen next to gates or stations. Further promoting this is bad imo.
All other changes mentioned seem to be pretty good though.
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Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment
7
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Posted - 2012.09.01 10:03:00 -
[365] - Quote
I sincerely hope that you keep in mind that players will try to exploit your changes at nearly all costs. :)
At the moment I can hardly imagine an NPC that can catch a speed-pimped Interceptor (5k m/s +) without using Ewar and still being able to apply *any* kind of damage to him. Right now, NPC-tracking is absolutely bad and even in wormholes and incursions the NPC-frigs are only able to catch smaller splayerships by using webs or break permatanks by using neuts.
Maybe you should consider giving NPCs EWAR Modules but let them stop using them once a hostile player enters the site. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
597
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 10:24:00 -
[366] - Quote
Let me second what someone else already said. It's great to see you posting these ideas in the forums asking for some feedback.
I don't mean to be overly negative about this. I think the rookie plex would be a very good addition to the other plexes.
But if you just combine all ships into the other three it gets a little crampled. You basically turn mediums into smalls with afs. And major restricted into mediums with hacs but no bcs. Now all but the rookie plexes get a bit expensive if you want to run them solo. I would rather lose cruisers than one hac.
Let me ask some questions:
A firetail or a slicer would fit in a small one right? But a firetail and slicer only do about 200 dps on a good day. (I actually don't fly either but think its a bit lower for most pvp fits) An incursus can do about that much damage as well. So we will still have t1 frigates running mediums, or we will have no plexes that our navy frigates can run.
As far as the large plexes you will have to base the damage on what a t1 cruiser can do. And well many destroyers can put out the damage of a cruiser. The tank may be a problem but probably not if you pve it up. If you have the rats do too much damage for those types of ships you will probably have them do too much damage for a pvp ship that should be fitting a point etc.
You will find that a ship set up for pve will always be able to out tank and gank a pvp ship. They don't have to worry about a scram or other ewar or tracking and other things that win in pvp. And they typically know exactly what tank they need. This is why to avoid plexing being a pve activity you also need to do some other things like a form of timer countdown and notifications.
Maybe your sleeper AI covers this. But I think it would be very hard to do. Players pretty much learn the minminmum to beat just about any pve ship in about a month or 2. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
597
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Posted - 2012.09.01 10:32:00 -
[367] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:Quote:Personally I hate Eve for forcing all fights to happen next to gates or stations. Further promoting this is bad imo.
All other changes mentioned seem to be pretty good though. The problem was, that you could hardly intercept someone in a site, because you had to use the acceleration gate and once you dropped he saw you 90km away and just warped out. It prevented PvP, simple as that.
No it prevented allot of ganks and made it so you didn't have to compulsively hit dscan. That was all. Now you have more t1 pvp ships getting ganked by hacs and afs. Now if you will have to compulsively hit the dscan if you want to avoid the blob landing right on top of you. This is not really an improvement.
If you want to ganks do the whole gate camp thing. Don't make fw plexes revolve around that.
What has been preventing fights is the fact that you run plexes much more efficiently in a pve ship. Nothing in the winter proposals changes that.
Bottom line is I can fit more stabs on a cruiser than I can on a frigate. So yes i will be in a cruiser but because I can still hide in my plex I will be better off just leaving if an enemy does come. Just like now I can leave the plex run and run another a system or 2 away. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment
7
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Posted - 2012.09.01 10:45:00 -
[368] - Quote
let me summarize that:
- you are in a low-security system and you know that everyone there can and probably will try to kill you - you are in a ship not equipped for PvP - you are in a public available position and know that anyone can warp to you any second - you refuse to hit the scanner frequently even when probably hostile players enter the local
. . .
And you still want the environment protecting your while making money? Seriously?
Note: 99% if all people who are "ganked" while doing PvE made a lot of mistakes previously that lead to the outcome. If FW should be mainly about PvP, the environment should not prevent it. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
239
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 10:51:00 -
[369] - Quote
also these new ship restrictions mean that people will use t2 ships mostly or pirate faction cruisers/frigs so FW is not for new players anymore with cheap ships
rookie plex sure is but meh condor vs condor fights must be fun |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
597
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 11:01:00 -
[370] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:let me summarize that:
- you are in a low-security system and you know that everyone there can and probably will try to kill you - you are in a ship not equipped for PvP - you are in a public available position and know that anyone can warp to you any second - you refuse to hit the scanner frequently even when probably hostile players enter the local
. . .
And you still want the environment protecting your while making money? Seriously?
Note: 99% if all people who are "ganked" while doing PvE made a lot of mistakes previously that lead to the outcome. If FW should be mainly about PvP, the environment should not prevent it.
Let me summarize some things for you:
People should be able to expect to see an enemy come in when they are attacking the enemies complex.
Plexing should be about pvp.
Your style of ganking people with several ship classes higher or greater numbers should not replace the current mechanics.
CCP is essentially saying well we will leave plexing a pve mechanic but just make it a bit easier to gank the pvers unless the pvers do some tedious task like spam dscan. This is the wrong approach.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment
7
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Posted - 2012.09.01 11:18:00 -
[371] - Quote
you "see" your "enemy" in local at least a minute before he comes into your plex? you then "see" him on dscan if you are not too lazy to do the click once you have hostiles in local and then you "see" him entering your grid which gives you about 10 more seconds to decide if you want to fight or run - more than enough for a frigate to warp out, even for a cruiser of you care to pre-align once you "see enemies" in local.
still not enough? pfffff.... |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
597
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 11:37:00 -
[372] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:you "see" your "enemy" in local at least a minute before he comes into your plex? you then "see" him on dscan if you are not too lazy to do the click once you have hostiles in local and then you "see" him entering your grid which gives you about 10 more seconds to decide if you want to fight or run - more than enough for a frigate to warp out, even for a cruiser of you care to pre-align once you "see enemies" in local.
still not enough? pfffff....
You don't get it.
Plexing should not be a game of gank the pver. You are applying the pirate versus carebear dynamic to the wrong part of eve. We have enough of that already in eve.
I go in plexes where there are enemies. That way it increases the chance of a fight. I just want some distance from the warp in, case there is a blob.
The other mechanics like notifications and timer rollback are the mechanic changes that make plexing a pvp mechanic without making it a silly gank the pver game. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 13:06:00 -
[373] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Syzygium wrote:you "see" your "enemy" in local at least a minute before he comes into your plex? you then "see" him on dscan if you are not too lazy to do the click once you have hostiles in local and then you "see" him entering your grid which gives you about 10 more seconds to decide if you want to fight or run - more than enough for a frigate to warp out, even for a cruiser of you care to pre-align once you "see enemies" in local.
still not enough? pfffff.... You don't get it. Plexing should not be a game of gank the pver. You are applying the pirate versus carebear dynamic to the wrong part of eve. We have enough of that already in eve. I go in plexes where there are enemies. That way it increases the chance of a fight. I just want some distance from the warp in, case there is a blob. The other mechanics like notifications and timer rollback are the mechanic changes that make plexing a pvp mechanic without making it a silly gank the pver game. I do get it. It is just my opinion, that there are quite enough chances to avoid being caught in case someone don't want to fight. The plex being 70k off the Accgate just shifts the balance way too much in favor of the one being inside because he needs zero attention and can still evade all and every combat.
Since I am a fan of good balance, I like the proposed change. The one wanting to make the catch needs to be quick, the one wanting to escape needs to be careful. Good thing. |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
95
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 13:36:00 -
[374] - Quote
Changes seem fine, but I guess my only concern is with the need now to kill the NPC's at sites won't this drive faction standing down so low that it will be quite painful to grind it back up when/if they leave faction warfare? I think that may be a fairly big negative to those contemplating FW if that's the case. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
526
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 14:22:00 -
[375] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Aryth wrote:Do you guys feel that defensive plexing may end up being the new farming flavor of the month? At least the farmers will now have to bring the appropriately sized ships for the job. Their defending alts (activated at about 95% contested level), however, will remain in fast frigs. Farmers are gonna farm. Farming will be a bit harder in the next patch. My message to CCP is to have rats spawn in the plexes according to who's inside - I don't know yet whether this is technically feasible or not, but I'm heavily encouraging it. What is needed here is that if I'm running a defensive plex, There are Amarr attacker spawns entering periodically. If I'm running an offensive plex, there are amarr defender spawns entering periodically. The devil will be in the AI / aggro / programming, but this should be the absolute design goal to strive for if at all technically feasible. The last thing I want to see is the farming issue moved to D-plexing but not eliminated entirely.
This would be perfect. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Cabal |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
276
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 15:00:00 -
[376] - Quote
No, perfect would be to drop the folly of the easy LP that comes from defensive plexing and introduce the automatic timer instead plus meaningful upgrades (ie. ones that will encourage people to spend the hours orbiting).
But the Farmers Union is too strong now after six months of infini-LP so guess we'll (read: I'll) have to settle for even more LP being thrown after the gunless stabbed frigs of the alt armies. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
457
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 16:45:00 -
[377] - Quote
I guess ultimately I would have defensive LP be worth at most 10-20% the current rate so that defensive plexers can replenish the ihub. 75% LP return invites easy farming of unfit defensive plexing frigs. The real ROI should be the upgrades and LP store.
Offensive plexing starts all the drama/fights/controversy. It is the one that takes all the effort that requires an enemy to go into the other guy's system to accomplish something. Defensive plexing supresses interaction by making "winning" seem impossible.
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
660
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 17:06:00 -
[378] - Quote
Cearain wrote:I go in plexes where there are enemies. That way it increases the chance of a fight. I just want some distance from the warp in, case there is a blob.
So hit dscan before you actually warp into the plex. Heaven forbid you use the tools available to you to garner intelligence.
Mariner6 wrote:Changes seem fine, but I guess my only concern is with the need now to kill the NPC's at sites won't this drive faction standing down so low that it will be quite painful to grind it back up when/if they leave faction warfare? I think that may be a fairly big negative to those contemplating FW if that's the case.
This is a good point. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
fofofo |
Atomic Option
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
20
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 17:25:00 -
[379] - Quote
Quote: Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.
Assuming "whole complex range" means "on grid with the complex" you'll be able to cause a lot of delay and be almost untouchable with some grid fu and a fast ship. Unless complex grids somehow aren't as stretchable as regular grids. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
347
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 17:33:00 -
[380] - Quote
Atomic Option wrote:Quote: Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused. Assuming "whole complex range" means "on grid with the complex" you'll be able to cause a lot of delay and be almost untouchable with some grid fu and a fast ship. Unless complex grids somehow aren't as stretchable as regular grids.
I agree this part will have to be changed. Something like 60k will make people trying to defend actually enter the combat area, instead of orbiting at 150k, or sitting 100k away and sniping while defensive plexing the site at the same time.
|
|
Kalaratiri
Skadi's Call Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
235
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 18:15:00 -
[381] - Quote
I am a huge fan of these changes, the making of a t1 frig only plex especially. That is a good thing! |
Ava Starfire
Skadi's Call Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
408
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 18:19:00 -
[382] - Quote
I cannot like this enough!
Dedicated plexes for T1 frigs only, thank you! Destroyers and a few types of faction frigs (Hookbill) dominate minors as it is, and T2 frigs are useless vs most cruisers (and rats) in mediums. Giving us two small-ship playgrounds, where all frigs and dessies will be of use, is just epic. Thank you.
T1 frigs are amazingly fun, so wonderful to see the new little plexes.
Most of the time, AF vs Destroyer is a good fight, especially if the destroyer can dictate starting range. It will be nice to force people to devote more thought to a plex boat than "Fit arty thrasher, win" though it is likely a couple classes of AFs (Vengeance, Hawk) will dominate here; AF balance is another issue altogether, however, and this is a great bunch of changes.
The changes to LP and upgrades, once again, made me actually squee a little when I read them.
Make this happen, please, and soon! The ONLY way this could be better is a T1 cruiser specific plex, do NOT go back to "T1 cruisers or AFs" as this just means "Use a cruiser" due to the uphill fight an AF has vs the holy trinity of neuts, webs, and drones.
Overall, based on what I have read, 9/10. Great work. |
Starbuck Mulligann
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
3
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 18:58:00 -
[383] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: * Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.
As several people have already mentioned, a full grid contest range is going to be abused by 5k m/s frigs to prevent capture without engaging in PvP. I tried to think up options that would balance this (like allowing warp to squad in sites) but I think the best way to encourage pvp is to keep the contest range proportional to the capture range. A contest range of 2x the capture range might be the right balance.
I could see how this change might cause regression in how a cloaked ship effects the timer. Definitely want to test that on SiSi.
Shrinking the contest range over time is another interesting option.
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
457
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 19:07:00 -
[384] - Quote
Quote:* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).
The more I think abou tthis the more I don't like it. There is nothing wrong with the current system. I read this as L1: T1 frigs L2: Sabres L3: HACs, Recons, Logi L4: Nanofag ships
1. After the rebalance T1 frigs are perfectly viable options in current L1 plexes. They are competitive with dessies.
2. Navy faction ships are currently inferior to their T2 counterparts. Their only advantage was their flexibility in getting into smaller plexes. This advantage is gone. IMO, FW should be all about faction navy ships since 1) they are faction navy ships for faction warfare and 2) they are given out at a discount to the LP store.
3. No room for T1 cruisers. T2 AHAC/Logi/Recon will rule the day in L3s.
4. Armor BCs are worthless, only more "open ocean" nanofaggotry. If you are going this way, then please put a warp in on L4s.
.Maybe it's fear of change. What do other FW players think of this change? |
MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1108
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 20:19:00 -
[385] - Quote
now please please trible or double the LP payout for killing another player in FW when defending your own sites.
That way you gain income from defending passively, but if you actually have to defend, you get huge rewards for winning. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |
Super Chair
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
321
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 22:10:00 -
[386] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:I really like the low dps, fast NPCs with active repping idea. Please clarify the following. Quote: * Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.
A "tie" goes to the faster ships that may have no incentive to engage. Super fast defender will sit on button aligned away. When opponent comes in he'll burn away and pick at targets, or just keep at range until the opponent gets bored. What is really a "win" for the attacker (they control the plex) turns into a loss (fast defender can grief with no risk). The advantage to the fast defender increases with capture range size. Perhaps the capture timer range was originally set based on projected effective range of the ships that would enter the plex.
Yeah i'm fairly certain players should have to risk their ship to stop the ones who are in control from running the timers. Burning 200-300km around the button in a strictly speed fit ship isn't a "risk". Players should have to be MUCH closer to the button to contest. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
37
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 00:07:00 -
[387] - Quote
Excellent..
I can't think of a better way to express it
Tears will flow! |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
29
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 00:19:00 -
[388] - Quote
Cearain wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Durrr wrote: it will be at least 6 months (if not a year) before the cruisers get some love Sure about that? Unless they are going to be able to compete with hacs its hard to see what place they will have in faction war. These faction plex restriction changes seem like a big boost to t2 industry.
You mean, unless they can compete with the vagabond and zealot, and everything else is just as useless? |
Hrett
Justified Chaos
182
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 01:16:00 -
[389] - Quote
chatgris wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:* Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused. So far I LOVE everything about this but this: a) If the pilot goes "off grid" are they still considered in the plex zone? (To prevent an enemy player from just burning away in a 8k/s dramiel forever. b) System defence is possible with a super nano ship that runs forever with offgrid boost. Mix this with the grid mechanics and it can get a little exploitable in the sense that defence is no longer pvp but "run around and around and around until the opponent gets bored".
Kudos on all changes, but this is the glaring problem I see. Now we will have nano+OD frigates orbiting at 100+. No one will be able to chase them off, making it impossible to offensively capture a plex. The FW exploit gang is already discussing it in W&T forum.
I know people were able to bug plexes in the prior iteration by going into the limited contesting range then 'locking' the timer somehow. So, if perhaps some coding limitation, could you just tie the plex closure to the killing of the last NPC?
That way the defender has to be actively fighting the attacker and kill/drive him off to defend the plex by preventing the the death of the last NPC until the defender runs his timer to zero. Dunno, just an idea. I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Hrett
Justified Chaos
182
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 01:17:00 -
[390] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:Cearain wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Durrr wrote: it will be at least 6 months (if not a year) before the cruisers get some love Sure about that? Unless they are going to be able to compete with hacs its hard to see what place they will have in faction war. These faction plex restriction changes seem like a big boost to t2 industry. You mean, unless they can compete with the vagabond and zealot, only?
Deimos at zero on warp in might cause a problem or 3... I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
|
Hrett
Justified Chaos
182
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 01:22:00 -
[391] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Quote:* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access). The more I think abou tthis the more I don't like it. There is nothing wrong with the current system. I read this as L1: T1 frigs L2: Sabres L3: HACs, Recons, Logi L4: Nanofag ships 1. After the rebalance T1 frigs are perfectly viable options in current L1 plexes. They are competitive with dessies. 2. Navy faction ships are currently inferior to their T2 counterparts. Their only advantage was their flexibility in getting into smaller plexes. This advantage is gone. IMO, FW should be all about faction navy ships since 1) they are faction navy ships for faction warfare and 2) they are given out at a discount to the LP store. 3. No room for T1 cruisers. T2 AHAC/Logi/Recon will rule the day in L3s. 4. Armor BCs are worthless, only more "open ocean" nanofaggotry. If you are going this way, then please put a warp in on L4s. .Maybe it's fear of change. What do other FW players think of this change?
Yes. I completely agree. A HUGE part of the charm and awesomeness of FW is that ALL ship sizes and classes get used. This change will eliminate T1 cruisers and destroyers among others. Currently, Pirate faction ships get used, but they are rare enough not to be unbalancing. I would rather keep the current restrictions over this suggested change. I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
37
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 01:23:00 -
[392] - Quote
Hrett wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:Cearain wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Durrr wrote: it will be at least 6 months (if not a year) before the cruisers get some love Sure about that? Unless they are going to be able to compete with hacs its hard to see what place they will have in faction war. These faction plex restriction changes seem like a big boost to t2 industry. You mean, unless they can compete with the vagabond and zealot, only? Deimos at zero on warp in might cause a problem or 3...
More like it would be an awesome kill ^^ |
Hrett
Justified Chaos
182
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 02:06:00 -
[393] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:I'm with XG on the capture/contest range, making it 30km all around and being able to contest as soon as you're on grid gives a buff to kitey faggots that don't need any more buffs to their play style. Is there any reason why you guys don't want to make the timer run back when someone is not actively running it? Well, it's just one more reason to stop flying useless blaster boats :)
Funny. I read it as just one more reason to nerf offgrid boosting. ;) I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
77
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 02:44:00 -
[394] - Quote
Still not keen on the button location change. I keep coming back to max DPS ships just sat on the warp in.-á
As for plex sizes
Rookie- I don't hate this although I feel it is not required. Small- still feel assault ships are to strong but it is another small ship complex which I think is good. Medium- really feel there should be a place for T1 cruisers. Feels a shame that they may get buffed especially the logi but still have to compete with T2. Large- I would question whether this needs to be unrestricted. Allow all subcabs and move T2 cruisers here.
If people want to use caps then use them in taking the hubs. Or let the hubs act as a plex somehow.
An alternative may be to add a plex between medium (remove the tech 2 cruisers) and large and add T2 cruisers and battlecruisers (tech 1 only) here.
Don't want to many plex sizes though as then you never find the ones you want. |
Roddex
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 03:55:00 -
[395] - Quote
Any word on where Tech 3 fit into the planned system (at least the current plan)? |
Dread Operative
Justified Chaos
8
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 06:23:00 -
[396] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Quote:* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access). The more I think abou tthis the more I don't like it. There is nothing wrong with the current system. I read this as L1: T1 frigs L2: Sabres L3: HACs, Recons, Logi L4: Nanofag ships 1. After the rebalance T1 frigs are perfectly viable options in current L1 plexes. They are competitive with dessies. 2. Navy faction ships are currently inferior to their T2 counterparts. Their only advantage was their flexibility in getting into smaller plexes. This advantage is gone. IMO, FW should be all about faction navy ships since 1) they are faction navy ships for faction warfare and 2) they are given out at a discount to the LP store. 3. No room for T1 cruisers. T2 AHAC/Logi/Recon will rule the day in L3s. 4. Armor BCs are worthless, only more "open ocean" nanofaggotry. If you are going this way, then please put a warp in on L4s. .Maybe it's fear of change. What do other FW players think of this change?
I agree. The new changes to plex sizes will kill of CLASSES in FW. No reason for Faction Frigs in L2. No reason for Cruisers and some Faction Cruisers in L3. You can put 3 Logi in's a plex (which rep BS damage) and hold almost infinitely. 2 Vigilant's and 3 Guards could hold against a MUCH LARGER FORCE.
Keep the current plex size restrictions. Add a rookie if you must.
|
Juan Rayo
Justified Chaos
6
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 07:43:00 -
[397] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Quote:* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access). The more I think abou tthis the more I don't like it. There is nothing wrong with the current system. I read this as L1: T1 frigs L2: Sabres L3: HACs, Recons, Logi L4: Nanofag ships 1. After the rebalance T1 frigs are perfectly viable options in current L1 plexes. They are competitive with dessies. 2. Navy faction ships are currently inferior to their T2 counterparts. Their only advantage was their flexibility in getting into smaller plexes. This advantage is gone. IMO, FW should be all about faction navy ships since 1) they are faction navy ships for faction warfare and 2) they are given out at a discount to the LP store. 3. No room for T1 cruisers. T2 AHAC/Logi/Recon will rule the day in L3s. 4. Armor BCs are worthless, only more "open ocean" nanofaggotry. If you are going this way, then please put a warp in on L4s. .Maybe it's fear of change. What do other FW players think of this change? I agree. The new changes to plex sizes will kill of CLASSES in FW. No reason for Faction Frigs in L2. No reason for Cruisers and some Faction Cruisers in L3. You can put 3 Logi in's a plex (which rep BS damage) and hold almost infinitely. 2 Vigilant's and 3 Guards could hold against a MUCH LARGER FORCE. Keep the current plex size restrictions. Add a rookie if you must.
Agreed 100%. Still thinking a bit more on the other changes, but this one at least I-¿m pretty clear sucks. It kills t1 cruisers as they just can-¦t compete with their t2 counterparts. I want to bring new pilots into FW, I want to bring newbies into FW. So now instead of them being in a t1 cruiser and already a huge asset to corp, they-¦d have to train for a t2 + make the isk for it. Please dont. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
168
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 07:45:00 -
[398] - Quote
Roddex wrote:Any word on where Tech 3 fit into the planned system (at least the current plan)?
This ^
T3 are cruiser hulls. Will they be allowed into L3 sites? |
Martin0
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
50
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 08:16:00 -
[399] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: * Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.
* Unify capture range: having 10, 20 and 30km range depending on the complex size is confusing and not needed anymore if we move the beacon closer to the room entrance. Thus we would like to have a capture range of 30km for all sized sites, so it's easier to remember for everyone.
I love those two, i can now sit at the warpin with my blastership AND capture the plex :D
|
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
168
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 08:21:00 -
[400] - Quote
Also"
X asked, "What do other FW players think?"
These changes are radically different than anything I had imagined.
Major changes create major ripple effects. Clearly the last change affected the economy, the FW specific markets, some individual players, and a couple of massive exploits.
It has also affected the membership base of the Amarr Militia and the Gallente Militia. The influx of 'farm alts' had a huge impact that cannot be undone. This is the only thing that needed fixed imo. All the other economic 'incentive based' changes seem like a huge over correction. I can't explain the mechanics...but it just feels wrong. Feels ike FW is about to become the slums of EVE. Just poor pilots sitting in dead Tier 1 systems.
I think the current system is obviously flawed, and I keep going back to the timeless wisdom of: Why try and re-invent the wheel? The original wheel worked just fine. All 4 factions rolled up the hills and down the hills for years.
Farm alts was a big flat tire, and leaching/awoxing alts was a big leaky tire. Just fix the flat, patch the leak, and let the wheels get rolling again. |
|
Sui'Djin
Black Rise Guerilla Forces Caldari Protectorate Forces
6
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 08:48:00 -
[401] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Quote:* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access). The more I think abou tthis the more I don't like it. There is nothing wrong with the current system. I read this as L1: T1 frigs L2: Sabres L3: HACs, Recons, Logi L4: Nanofag ships 1. After the rebalance T1 frigs are perfectly viable options in current L1 plexes. They are competitive with dessies. 2. Navy faction ships are currently inferior to their T2 counterparts. Their only advantage was their flexibility in getting into smaller plexes. This advantage is gone. IMO, FW should be all about faction navy ships since 1) they are faction navy ships for faction warfare and 2) they are given out at a discount to the LP store. 3. No room for T1 cruisers. T2 AHAC/Logi/Recon will rule the day in L3s. 4. Armor BCs are worthless, only more "open ocean" nanofaggotry. If you are going this way, then please put a warp in on L4s. .Maybe it's fear of change. What do other FW players think of this change?
I fully agree. |
Lili Lu
374
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 16:05:00 -
[402] - Quote
Hrett wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Quote:* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access). The more I think abou tthis the more I don't like it. There is nothing wrong with the current system. I read this as L1: T1 frigs L2: Sabres L3: HACs, Recons, Logi L4: Nanofag ships 1. After the rebalance T1 frigs are perfectly viable options in current L1 plexes. They are competitive with dessies. 2. Navy faction ships are currently inferior to their T2 counterparts. Their only advantage was their flexibility in getting into smaller plexes. This advantage is gone. IMO, FW should be all about faction navy ships since 1) they are faction navy ships for faction warfare and 2) they are given out at a discount to the LP store. 3. No room for T1 cruisers. T2 AHAC/Logi/Recon will rule the day in L3s. 4. Armor BCs are worthless, only more "open ocean" nanofaggotry. If you are going this way, then please put a warp in on L4s. .Maybe it's fear of change. What do other FW players think of this change? Yes. I completely agree. A HUGE part of the charm and awesomeness of FW is that ALL ship sizes and classes get used. This change will eliminate T1 cruisers and destroyers among others. Currently, Pirate faction ships get used, but they are rare enough not to be unbalancing. I would rather keep the current restrictions over this suggested change. Another post in agreement with XGallentius' comment. The current breakdown of ship sizes in plexes is one of the successes of the current system. T1 and navy faction frigs and Cruisers are viable and necessary even. Convert the restrictions to as proposed and we will lose the use of these ships. What a waste it would be. |
Limarr
Rennfeuer Curatores Veritatis Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 16:05:00 -
[403] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright folks, as promised, here are some iterations we are planning for winter. Remember, this thread will focus on FW NPCs and complexes, for War Zone Control and System Upgrade changes, please refer to this post. FW COMPLEX CHANGES* Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.
How about add more than one acceleration gate per plex with different warp in?
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
13
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 18:05:00 -
[404] - Quote
Are the NPCs still going to attack neutrals? They really shouldn't do that. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
349
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 19:08:00 -
[405] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Are the NPCs still going to attack neutrals? They really shouldn't do that.
I think they should ewar neutrals.
|
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
77
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 19:16:00 -
[406] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Are the NPCs still going to attack neutrals? They really shouldn't do that.
Yes they should, it is a military site do not enter if you do not want to be involved. |
Ashriban Kador
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 20:39:00 -
[407] - Quote
Roddex wrote:Any word on where Tech 3 fit into the planned system (at least the current plan)?
Most probably in a deep safe somewhere or PoS, just like they are currently. Why would that change? Your goals may align with some ... and with others, collide with the force of suns. |
Garr Earthbender
Justified Chaos
53
|
Posted - 2012.09.03 02:08:00 -
[408] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Quote:* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access). The more I think abou tthis the more I don't like it. There is nothing wrong with the current system. I read this as L1: T1 frigs L2: Sabres L3: HACs, Recons, Logi L4: Nanofag ships 1. After the rebalance T1 frigs are perfectly viable options in current L1 plexes. They are competitive with dessies. 2. Navy faction ships are currently inferior to their T2 counterparts. Their only advantage was their flexibility in getting into smaller plexes. This advantage is gone. IMO, FW should be all about faction navy ships since 1) they are faction navy ships for faction warfare and 2) they are given out at a discount to the LP store. 3. No room for T1 cruisers. T2 AHAC/Logi/Recon will rule the day in L3s. 4. Armor BCs are worthless, only more "open ocean" nanofaggotry. If you are going this way, then please put a warp in on L4s. .Maybe it's fear of change. What do other FW players think of this change?
Well, here's my quickly thought out thought. on the subject. We've seen the T1 frigs be brought more in line to be competitive with T2 frigs. Not a lot, but enough. If we move this up to the cruiser and BC classes, that means that the T1 hulls will be much more effective than before (I'm looking at YOU Omen).
That being said, I don't see HOW they stand a CHANCE against HACs, Logi, and Navy/Pirate hulls. Sure some of us are EVE rich, but that doesn't mean we like to blow through all our ISK super quick.
I agree with others that adding in the rookie plex is fine, but keep the other size restrictions as they currently are. I think it would be cool to see a few more unrestricted majors around though. -Rock is overpowered, Scissors is fine. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
416
|
Posted - 2012.09.03 03:45:00 -
[409] - Quote
I, too, am concrerned about some of these changes.
I don't want to see the end of the Unrestricted Major. I faffed about and missed a fight with carriers last night, on a gate. It was ~40 Amarrwith 2 caps vs 15-20 AHACs from Minmatar, and all agreed it was a great 30 minute brawl; everyone won though some lost their rides. MOAR PLOCKS.
It is rare enough that FW guys use the big toys, so getting rid of the Unrestricted sites will discourage risky cap drops more than they happen today (ie; rarely). It is also the only place you can light a cyno; which is ergo the only place one can drop BLOPs gangs in FW. Again, it's risky toy usage, and should be encouraged.
Secondly, the move of the capture button (which I suggested, with others). I am 20% agreeing with Cearain, 80% disagreeing. Right now, he gets to be lazy on the d-scan while orbiting button because 90km in a complex of any kind equals an ability to be risk averse or be a horrible farming alt. Either you avoid the fight because of blob (or, you know, use d-scan; no excuses here Cearain) or you bug out because you are a farmer. Hell, I can and do ********** to redtube with EVE windowed down to the overview tab ONLY and if I see flashy orange I drop what I'm doing (so to speak), take the splash guard off my keyboard, and click warp to station/safe and then keep watching Assmunchers XXV - The Return of Buttcake. Moving the capture button closer will discourage such tawdry behaviour, and incidentally, increase the thrill of ****-plexing.
However, I'm not sure that 20km is an appropriate distance, given, a) the proliferation of off-grid booster Lokis = instapoint on anyone within 34-40km of warpin. This includes a button 20km off the entry with a 20km radius and the WT at the far side and an overheated T2 dissy with Loki links on it. Which is basically got to be the standard threat you deal with. Ergo, the likelihood of being pointed the second someone drops on grid with a 20km button range is close to 100%. b) Dropping my johnson, cleaning the hand lotion off, and picking up my mouse takes at least 5 seconds. This indicates that you need another 10km at least, so I'll only really die to ceptors if I'm not on d-scan.
I think something like a 30km from warp-in, 20km radius capture beacon gives people an opportunity to ****-plex, or even actually do it for serious, with an ability to not get pointed 100% of the time by a well prepared blob who sends in a ship with loki-boosted T2 point. At 30km, you'd have to be a dullard unaware of d-scan (or Cearain) to fall victim. Or a sodding great wanker like me.
Thirdly, I am also concerned about the role of T1 cruisers in the proposed tiers of FW complexes. I'm not going all Chicken Little about it like others, because I at least can use d-scan and hence pick my fights while rolling my Nanocose or Nanoscythe (yeah, lol). But you WILL have, as stated, 2 vigilants/Deimos and 3 guardians with off-grid Legion boosts roflstomping everything, forever, on warp-in. At least the Deimos' won't be able to escape being pointed by the gang trying to bumrush them.
As for the changes to the rats, I approve. This will basically stop the farmer alts of offensive plexers doing it AFK. You'll still be able to farm smalls and maybe mediums in a T1 frig/dessie (loki boosted twin rep incursus, I figure, would be enough to toss over medium rats) and people will up the ante with the medium and large plexes with new and innovative ways to farm them....but requiring the rats to be dead will at least force people to not AFK it.
Defensive plexes, yeah they will be done by the alts. But so what? The way it will work is that, since you get LP's by defensively deplexing systems which your enemy contests, it is therefore in your interests to let your enemies contest your systems, and then decontest them. This will benefit both sides' Farmville Committees and, really, you should get organised on this with a rota and schedule and gentlemanly agreements.
It will also, incidentally, benefit the PVPers of both sides, as we get to hunt people who offensively plex our space, and we get to defensively plex for ISK if we feel like it, and we get to go offensively plex the other guy's space while looking for fights. It will be just like now except everyone coming to your space looking for income will have to risk more than a MSE-MASB Merlin with stabs. It will at least have to have some guns on it to clear the rats off.
Finally, I am confused by the way the rats will spawn. I take it there will be three to five on warp-in, and when you kill one a new one spawns, until the reservoir of rats is depleted, then no more spawn. This would then maintain 3-5 rats on field at all times but prevent pile-ups. Correct? The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man. Sun Tzu localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|
Martin0
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
55
|
Posted - 2012.09.03 08:14:00 -
[410] - Quote
There is ONE thing that i don't like. T2 cruisers in medium plexes. This will means FALCONS everywhere (elite pvpers, you know) I think we need a medium plex where only t1 crisers can enter. Give a chance to new players to try out cruisers without be permajammed, neuted to death or raped by T2 cruisers. |
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
38
|
Posted - 2012.09.03 10:44:00 -
[411] - Quote
I don't think t2 cruisers should get into a plex BC's can't get into
The power difference between t1 cruisers and t2 cruisers is enormous.
I'd say T1 for the mediums. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
112
|
Posted - 2012.09.03 11:22:00 -
[412] - Quote
I really like the proposed changes to plexing mechanics in FW, the only thing I am concerned about is the new size of plexes. Currently T1/Faction Cruisers are almost equivalent to T2-Frigates if it comes to survivability. You never know exactly how the fight will end up which makes it interesting. With the new size rules T1/Faction Cruisers will in the worst case fight against T3-Cruisers which will compeletely outclass them. (And don't forget the Falcon and the Logi.)
Therefore I like to propose the following sizes for plexes:
L1 - Rooky: T1/Faction Frigates only (no Pirate Frigates and no Destroyers). L2 - Small: T1/Faction Cruisers + all Frigates and all T1/T2 Destroyers (no Pirate Cruisers and no BC). L3 - Medum: BC + all Cruisers + all Destroyers L4 - Large: BS + everything including capitals (since no gates) |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
49
|
Posted - 2012.09.03 13:59:00 -
[413] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Quote:* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access). The more I think abou tthis the more I don't like it. There is nothing wrong with the current system. I read this as L1: T1 frigs L2: Sabres L3: HACs, Recons, Logi L4: Nanofag ships 1. After the rebalance T1 frigs are perfectly viable options in current L1 plexes. They are competitive with dessies. 2. Navy faction ships are currently inferior to their T2 counterparts. Their only advantage was their flexibility in getting into smaller plexes. This advantage is gone. IMO, FW should be all about faction navy ships since 1) they are faction navy ships for faction warfare and 2) they are given out at a discount to the LP store. 3. No room for T1 cruisers. T2 AHAC/Logi/Recon will rule the day in L3s. 4. Armor BCs are worthless, only more "open ocean" nanofaggotry. If you are going this way, then please put a warp in on L4s. .Maybe it's fear of change. What do other FW players think of this change?
I do not like the change - T1 Destroyers will have no use at all and this will take a fun, cheap ship type out of action. Harpys will be everywhere.
Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Lebaneur
Tribal Core Defiant Legacy
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.03 16:48:00 -
[414] - Quote
Maybe someone asked this already but how will these changes change tags harvesting in plexes? Less NPCs, but all will be killed and more likely looted? Might want to look into that aspect as well. |
Draco Zhuangli
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.03 18:15:00 -
[415] - Quote
Many of the ideas suggested here sound good to me...in theory. I have not ventured into FW so I can not make an informed suggestion, however the reason I have not joined FW is the reason for my post. It is because FW is limited to certain areas that many like me may refrain from joining FW. I like where I am based out of, and I also want to venture into null space. The null space nearby is NPC owned. You should be able to get a hint for where I am going with my suggestion.
Proposal : Take FW into NPC owned null-space.
I know that corps, alliances, individuals do not need to be at war to fight in null. However, they is no real way to lay claim to a pocket of space in NPC null besides blockading gates. This seems very limiting to me, lets go camp on a gate and wait. Sometime the fishing is good, sometimes not. But, what if you were to bring FW into the picture. The features in FW give a form of sovereignty control in the NPC space.
- Station access denied - warzone control - and space upgrading
These are all features that make non-NPC space able to be occupied.
Expand FW into NPC null-space and you will not only get more people to join FW, but also more sovereignty like action in the regions. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 03:10:00 -
[416] - Quote
I've been known for running the odd plex or two in Faction Warfare, so here are my recommendations:
Quote:* Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.
TERRIBLE idea.
The last thing players want is to have their ranged ship dumped at scram range to the button and it doesn't give plex-runners enough time to react to inbound hostiles.
Moving the warp-in 10km-20km closer would help, though.
Quote:* Unify capture range: having 10, 20 and 30km range depending on the complex size is confusing and not needed anymore if we move the beacon closer to the room entrance. Thus we would like to have a capture range of 30km for all sized sites, so it's easier to remember for everyone.
Pointless, really.
The difference in capture range reflects the difference in engagement range and mobility of the ship classes.
Quote:* Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.
TERRIBLE idea.
This would invariably lead to defensive plexes being perma-trolled by MWD Condor alts orbiting at 150km.
Quote:* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).
TERRIBLE idea.
'Rookie' plexes would force people to ship down to T1 frigs they might not even own, instead of the faction frigs and destroyers that are typically part of a small gang.
'Medium' plexes would be a a magnet for Logi/Falcon faggotry, while (farcially) not allowing the BCs required to counter them.
No. Just no. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
420
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 03:58:00 -
[417] - Quote
Lebaneur wrote:Maybe someone asked this already but how will these changes change tags harvesting in plexes? Less NPCs, but all will be killed and more likely looted? Might want to look into that aspect as well.
Not empty quoting to highlight this issue I didn't think of. The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man. Sun Tzu localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
600
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 13:51:00 -
[418] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:Cearain wrote:Syzygium wrote:you "see" your "enemy" in local at least a minute before he comes into your plex? you then "see" him on dscan if you are not too lazy to do the click once you have hostiles in local and then you "see" him entering your grid which gives you about 10 more seconds to decide if you want to fight or run - more than enough for a frigate to warp out, even for a cruiser of you care to pre-align once you "see enemies" in local.
still not enough? pfffff.... You don't get it. Plexing should not be a game of gank the pver. You are applying the pirate versus carebear dynamic to the wrong part of eve. We have enough of that already in eve. I go in plexes where there are enemies. That way it increases the chance of a fight. I just want some distance from the warp in, case there is a blob. The other mechanics like notifications and timer rollback are the mechanic changes that make plexing a pvp mechanic without making it a silly gank the pver game. I do get it. It is just my opinion, that there are quite enough chances to avoid being caught in case someone don't want to fight. The plex being 70k off the Accgate just shifts the balance way too much in favor of the one being inside because he needs zero attention and can still evade all and every combat. Since I am a fan of good balance, I like the proposed change. The one wanting to make the catch needs to be quick, the one wanting to escape needs to be careful. Good thing.
Did I mention that I run plexes when there are allot of wts in system? Because I plex hopeing for pvp your comment about looking at local misses the point entirely. I want pvp I don't want plexing turned into another blob mechanic where the enemy lands right on top of you.
As far as your comment about being to lazy to use the dscan. I do use the dscan. But I don't need to constantly spam it the way it is set up now. Moving the button closer to the warp in just means I have to constantly mash the dscan like a korean kid on a ninetendo. I am not interested in that. That is the point.
You don't have 10 seconds from the time you see someone laning on grid. Sorry.
Look plexing is currently a good way for small scale pvp. This moving the button closer to warp in just tends to decrease that. Now people in t1 insured ships looking for pvp will just have more of them lost to tech 2 ships because they weren't spamming the dscan like someone with a hand tremor.
This change demonstrates that CCP seems unable to understand there can be more to pvp in eve than pirates/blobs looking to gank carebears.
There are other ways to promote pvp in plexes that promotes quality fights. Those methods would include a timer countback if you warp out after an enemy or neutral lands on grid and some way militias could know where plexes are being attacked. But ccp decided to leave that out.
Instead they are just making this another mechanic where helpless carebear trys to run from blobs and blobs try to catch carebears. You know like everywhere else in eve. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Lili Lu
378
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 14:38:00 -
[419] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Syzygium wrote: I do get it. It is just my opinion, that there are quite enough chances to avoid being caught in case someone don't want to fight. The plex being 70k off the Accgate just shifts the balance way too much in favor of the one being inside because he needs zero attention and can still evade all and every combat.
Since I am a fan of good balance, I like the proposed change. The one wanting to make the catch needs to be quick, the one wanting to escape needs to be careful. Good thing. Did I mention that I run plexes when there are allot of wts in system? Because I plex hopeing for pvp your comment about looking at local misses the point entirely. I want pvp I don't want plexing turned into another blob mechanic where the enemy lands right on top of you. As far as your comment about being to lazy to use the dscan. I do use the dscan. But I don't need to constantly spam it the way it is set up now. Moving the button closer to the warp in just means I have to constantly mash the dscan like a korean kid on a ninetendo. I am not interested in that. That is the point. You don't have 10 seconds from the time you see someone laning on grid. Sorry. Look plexing is currently a good way for small scale pvp. This moving the button closer to warp in just tends to decrease that. Now people in t1 insured ships looking for pvp will just have more of them lost to tech 2 ships because they weren't spamming the dscan like someone with a hand tremor. This change demonstrates that CCP seems unable to understand there can be more to pvp in eve than pirates/blobs looking to gank carebears. There are other ways to promote pvp in plexes that promotes quality fights. Those methods would include a timer countback if you warp out after an enemy or neutral lands on grid and some way militias could know where plexes are being attacked. But ccp decided to leave that out. Instead they are just making this another mechanic where helpless carebear trys to run from blobs and blobs try to catch carebears. You know like everywhere else in eve. 70+ km as it is now may be too much distance, but on the flip side Cerain is right that 10km would be ridiculous. And yes dscan mashing is one of the most ******** requirements in the game atm. One of the reasons I won't bother with wormholes even though on the whole they are attractive.
So there has to be some distance between 70 and 10 that would present some danger for inattention while at the same time not make the person in the plex instant gank meat for the attacker(s). Oh look, 40km, a midpoint between those two values. So If one wants one could mash the dscan or one could just pay attention and be quick on the fight or flight response. And on the flip side the attacker needs some fast tackle to enter, some of which he might lose in order to get that tackle. Seems like a decent solution.
40km |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
602
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 16:10:00 -
[420] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Cearain wrote:I go in plexes where there are enemies. That way it increases the chance of a fight. I just want some distance from the warp in, case there is a blob.
So hit dscan before you actually warp into the plex. Heaven forbid you use the tools available to you to garner intelligence.
Nothing about this changes how you enter a plex. The concerns deal with when you are already in the plex how often you need to keep mashing the dscan. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hiro Protagonisti
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 17:09:00 -
[421] - Quote
The FW system lacks immersion.
Timers: Running down timers feels artificial and takes me out of the eve universe. If you made taking over a complex like taking an Ihub it think that's fun way at least for me to gain Points if you have to hit a certain level of concerted damage you will be armed and able to fight also it will be very difficult to do AFK when I have fought and defeated something it gives a great sense of victory. Potential Abuse Large gangs of ships could take down complexes quickly making complexes maintain captured status would help limit farming.
Arm The Stations: These complexes are in Lo-sec a very dangerous place from a story point of view any complex manager with half a brain will be looking to arm his station with something look at any war and you will find all kinds of field modifications arm these stations guys it just feels right that they can fight back and story wise if i were running one of these spots i wouldn't trust some hot shot pilot to protect me instead of running off after some tempting target.
Loyalty Point Awards: Static LP awards encourage farming and i think should be changed to better reflect the nature of warfare I think if it were based on the challenge encountered for instance say i take a complex in a condor and i was able to stay out of the range of the guns and took no damage then its not much of a challenge and a small amount of LP should be awarded however if I was in said same condor and was damaged into structure by a defending player before defeating him and the Plex then I should be given the equivalent of a combat citation and a subsequently larger LP award . The same applies for defensive plexing.
Benefits: When you frequent a place you get to know the people that live and work there to represent this if you consistently defend or even capture a location you should get bonuses not based on LP spent to bump an artificial tier but based on the number of times you saved their butts there should be npcs that send a message for help to their favorite capsuleers when they are being attacked thats how direct messages should be sent maybe only while your within a region after all recapturing and freeing a friend will make for good stories. and with that level of gratitude maybe when you are in a favored system you would get bonus to sensors or perhaps a timely ecm jam of an enemy.
The Payoff: This is how to build immersion for those playing the game without making it too slow and boring for the non Rp-ers it makes the adrenaline rush of combat primary and then gives the reinforcing payoff of reward plus recognition based on the quality of work not just allowing someone to do boring iterations also this allows you to do story-line changes easily for instance an often fought over Major complex lets say Deep Space 69 has a surprise weapons upgrade because the commander was frustrated with the local pilots not doing their best to defend the complex thus making it more challenging.
Mechanics are fine but story will help smooth over many of the rough spots.
|
Recoil IV
Far From Sober
15
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 17:17:00 -
[422] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Think a FW NPC is plain broken, crap or annoying? Post its exact name here, and explain why and what. Again, please remember, this discussion is about FW NPCs, not mission / deadspace / Incursion / Sleepers or whatever (we know there are a lot of them to fix in other features as well, but let's not get lost here shall we?). .
i wish missions were more challanging a more rewarding.why not take a look at those while you still in this area? |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
605
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 21:15:00 -
[423] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Cearain wrote:Syzygium wrote: I do get it. It is just my opinion, that there are quite enough chances to avoid being caught in case someone don't want to fight. The plex being 70k off the Accgate just shifts the balance way too much in favor of the one being inside because he needs zero attention and can still evade all and every combat.
Since I am a fan of good balance, I like the proposed change. The one wanting to make the catch needs to be quick, the one wanting to escape needs to be careful. Good thing. Did I mention that I run plexes when there are allot of wts in system? Because I plex hopeing for pvp your comment about looking at local misses the point entirely. I want pvp I don't want plexing turned into another blob mechanic where the enemy lands right on top of you. As far as your comment about being to lazy to use the dscan. I do use the dscan. But I don't need to constantly spam it the way it is set up now. Moving the button closer to the warp in just means I have to constantly mash the dscan like a korean kid on a ninetendo. I am not interested in that. That is the point. You don't have 10 seconds from the time you see someone laning on grid. Sorry. Look plexing is currently a good way for small scale pvp. This moving the button closer to warp in just tends to decrease that. Now people in t1 insured ships looking for pvp will just have more of them lost to tech 2 ships because they weren't spamming the dscan like someone with a hand tremor. This change demonstrates that CCP seems unable to understand there can be more to pvp in eve than pirates/blobs looking to gank carebears. There are other ways to promote pvp in plexes that promotes quality fights. Those methods would include a timer countback if you warp out after an enemy or neutral lands on grid and some way militias could know where plexes are being attacked. But ccp decided to leave that out. Instead they are just making this another mechanic where helpless carebear trys to run from blobs and blobs try to catch carebears. You know like everywhere else in eve. 70+ km as it is now may be too much distance, but on the flip side Cerain is right that 10km would be ridiculous. And yes dscan mashing is one of the most ******** requirements in the game atm. One of the reasons I won't bother with wormholes even though on the whole they are attractive. So there has to be some distance between 70 and 10 that would present some danger for inattention while at the same time not make the person in the plex instant gank meat for the attacker(s). Oh look, 40km, a midpoint between those two values. So If one wants one could mash the dscan or one could just pay attention and be quick on the fight or flight response. And on the flip side the attacker needs some fast tackle to enter, some of which he might lose in order to get that tackle. Seems like a decent solution. 40km
If you do allot of plexes you will find that even if you pick busy systems with allot of wartargets you will only get someone to fight enter every 40 minutes or so of plexing.
I tend to hit the dscsan every 30 seconds or so, I mean I still want to see if there is an ecm ship on scan etc, and if I see someone that can come in the plex, I will hit it more intently at shorter ranges.
So doing plexes right now requires a reasonable amount of dscanning. I don't think it should require even more. That will just make what is often a boring activity boring and annoying. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
273
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 22:30:00 -
[424] - Quote
Cearain wrote:So doing plexes right now requires a reasonable amount of dscanning. I don't think it should require even more. That will just make what is often a boring activity boring and annoying.
Another thing that happens is that you scan someone at the gate and don't know if it's friendly or not. Currently you can wait and see, and not to have run away too early from a hopeless fight with a Dramiel or something. I expect in winter to see a lot more chatter in Militia like "is the ship named 'Floris' in Sahtogas friendly?", and more complaints about blue intel: "don't ask if my Redeemer is friendly, ffs"
If you really want to promote ambushes, an acceleration gate inside the plex that leads back to the acceleration gate outside it, that would see some use. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
605
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 22:49:00 -
[425] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Cearain wrote:So doing plexes right now requires a reasonable amount of dscanning. I don't think it should require even more. That will just make what is often a boring activity boring and annoying. Another thing that happens is that you scan someone at the gate and don't know if it's friendly or not. Currently you can wait and see, and not to have run away too early from a hopeless fight with a Dramiel or something. I expect in winter to see a lot more chatter in Militia like "is the ship named 'Floris' in Sahtogas friendly?", and more complaints about blue intel: "don't ask if my Redeemer is friendly, ffs" If you really want to promote ambushes, an acceleration gate inside the plex that leads back to the acceleration gate outside it, that would see some use.
Excellent point. Often I have figured I would get a fight only to find the guy entering is friendly. Now I will have to be aligning much more often possibly outside the range of the button and hoping the lag gods favor me.
Why can't ccp just do what the people who plex want them to do instead of screwing everything up in random ways?
The whole being on grid stops the timer sounds like they are actually legitimizing what used to be considered an exploit. Or will they make sure you can't stop the timer by cloaking?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
39
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 09:11:00 -
[426] - Quote
Squatdog wrote:I've been known for running the odd plex or two in Faction Warfare, so here are my recommendations: Quote:* Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily. TERRIBLE idea. The last thing players want is to have their ranged ship dumped at scram range to the button and it doesn't give plex-runners enough time to react to inbound hostiles. Moving the warp-in 10km-20km closer would help, though. You know you can use a thing called Dscan right? Its not hard to keep up a close range, with the time it takes to land on the plex and get in you would be safe keeping up a 20mill scan every 15 seconds or even more... HTFUQuote:* Unify capture range: having 10, 20 and 30km range depending on the complex size is confusing and not needed anymore if we move the beacon closer to the room entrance. Thus we would like to have a capture range of 30km for all sized sites, so it's easier to remember for everyone. Pointless, really. The difference in capture range reflects the difference in engagement range and mobility of the ship classes. Not really..Quote:* Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused. TERRIBLE idea. This would invariably lead to defensive plexes being perma-trolled by MWD Condor alts orbiting at 150km. This wont be all that common, people generally don't do that many things that don't get them isk or kills. It will happen, but it won't be a huge problem..Quote:* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access). TERRIBLE idea. 'Rookie' plexes would force people to ship down to T1 frigs they might not even own, instead of the faction frigs and destroyers that are typically part of a small gang. So its a bad idea because it would force people to buy a 12 million isk ship? Ohh dear.. Stop being bad.'Medium' plexes would be a a magnet for Logi/Falcon faggotry, while (farcially) not allowing the BCs required to counter them. No. Just no.
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Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 11:41:00 -
[427] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:[quote=Squatdog]I've been known for running the odd plex or two in Faction Warfare, so here are my recommendations: TERRIBLE idea. The last thing players want is to have their ranged ship dumped at scram range to the button and it doesn't give plex-runners enough time to react to inbound hostiles. Moving the warp-in 10km-20km closer would help, though. You know you can use a thing called Dscan right? Its not hard to keep up a close range, with the time it takes to land on the plex and get in you would be safe keeping up a 20mill scan every 15 seconds or even more... HTFUPointless, really. The difference in capture range reflects the difference in engagement range and mobility of the ship classes. Not really..Quote:* Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused. TERRIBLE idea. This would invariably lead to defensive plexes being perma-trolled by MWD Condor alts orbiting at 150km. This wont be all that common, people generally don't do that many things that don't get them isk or kills. It will happen, but it won't be a huge problem..Quote:* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access). TERRIBLE idea. 'Rookie' plexes would force people to ship down to T1 frigs they might not even own, instead of the faction frigs and destroyers that are typically part of a small gang. So its a bad idea because it would force people to buy a 12 million isk ship? Ohh dear.. Stop being bad..
You aren't even in Faction Warfare. Take your trolling elsewhere.
This is my favourite part:
"people generally don't do that many things that don't get them isk or kills."
With Faction Warfare defensive plexing, YES THEY DO.
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
40
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 12:01:00 -
[428] - Quote
Squatdog wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:
The last thing players want is to have their ranged ship dumped at scram range to the button and it doesn't give plex-runners enough time to react to inbound hostiles. Moving the warp-in 10km-20km closer would help, though.
You know you can use a thing called Dscan right? Its not hard to keep up a close range, with the time it takes to land on the plex and get in you would be safe keeping up a 20mill scan every 15 seconds or even more... HTFU
Pointless, really.The difference in capture range reflects the difference in engagement range and mobility of the ship classes.
Not really..
This would invariably lead to defensive plexes being perma-trolled by MWD Condor alts orbiting at 150km.
This wont be all that common, people generally don't do that many things that don't get them isk or kills. It will happen, but it won't be a huge problem..
'Rookie' plexes would force people to ship down to T1 frigs they might not even own, instead of the faction frigs and destroyers that are typically part of a small gang.
So its a bad idea because it would force people to buy a 12 million isk ship? Ohh dear.. Stop being bad.
.
You aren't even in Faction Warfare. Take your trolling elsewhere. This is my favourite part: " people generally don't do that many things that don't get them isk or kills."With Faction Warfare defensive plexing, YES THEY DO.
I do actually agree with you that you shouldn't be able to contest a plex with derping around in a 5k m/s dramiel.
And while i may not be in FW i do spend most of my time in eve in plexes non the less ^^
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
201
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 03:57:00 -
[429] - Quote
Squatdog wrote:This is my favourite part:
"people generally don't do that many things that don't get them isk or kills."
With Faction Warfare defensive plexing, YES THEY DO.
When I defensive plex I do it on an alt while playing League of Legends. |
Garr Earthbender
Justified Chaos
55
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 04:27:00 -
[430] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Squatdog wrote:This is my favourite part:
"people generally don't do that many things that don't get them isk or kills."
With Faction Warfare defensive plexing, YES THEY DO. When I defensive plex I do it on an alt while playing League of Legends.
Wait, don't you play EVE in general while playing LoL? I kid ,I kid, but I had to go there. Sorry Chat. -Rock is overpowered, Scissors is fine. |
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Kalicor Lightwind
Vigihan Zombie Ninja Space Bears
26
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 21:32:00 -
[431] - Quote
To encourage working in a group, the payout should work like incursions in that other militias don't reduce your payout (unless you have far more than should be required).
Real life equivalence would be that soldiers don't suddenly get less pay because they have fellow soldiers in their proximity... |
Kesthely
Fleet of the Damned Happy Endings
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 05:36:00 -
[432] - Quote
The biggest problem that i have myself is that its to predictable. You know what kind of npc-¦s your going to face in a plex, where the-¦ll aproximatly start and how the-¦ll behave. Due to this an experianced person has NO troubles whatsoever with npc-¦s, be it for pvp, or running the plexes. The solution to that is verry easy. Don-¦t make it so static
Make different plexes and randomize them so we don-¦t actually know what to expect. Randomize the button distance, randomize how the button is taken (only orbiting is silly mechanic anyway) eg button is taken after a certain amount of waves is defeated, once something inside the plex is picked up and brought to the plex or the standard orbiting one.
PvP is about different ships, different fittings and different skill levels. This is not an FPS where the one with the best reflexes and map knowledge wins, nor an rts with the one that knows best how to counter something and has the best micromanagement wins. Mix it up, sometimes have the same dumb npcs that we have now in there, other times have good sleeper ai ones in it
Make it so that those going into the plex for pvp don't know what to expect, and those running plexes don't know either. In pvp there is no one fit does all, so make it that in the plexes there is no one fit does all either.
Here are a few suggestions that i would love for every faction to have:
If more then one person joins a plex scale the plex appropiatly If one (or more person) runs multiple plexes in one system, start responding to it with more intelligent and harder ai, so farmers are getting a bigger challange and tripple stabbed ab buffer fits eventually won't be able to run the sites anymore. Allow all the different ewars for all the militia's Introduce a lot more capacitor warfare
Also it would be nice if you allow defensive plexers to do objectives to set the plex to there likeing, eg have "empty" militia sentry towers in a plex wich you can load up with special modules so you can convert it to gun batteries, missile batteries or various forms of ewar - capwar batteries. This can even be linked with skills that allow you to shoot pos guns where you can control an amount of sentry turrets equal to the normally allowed pos modules. |
Garr Earthbender
Justified Chaos
55
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 15:09:00 -
[433] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1907821#post1907821
CCP Fozzie wrote:Garr Earthbender wrote:With cruisers not sucking any more, logi cruisers and the like, is it possible that the new FW complex layout (rookie, minor, medium, large) that the idea to have a medium hold all T2 cruisers and below had this rebalance in mind? Yup
Ship rebalancing dev blog + plex reassignment gave me a slight *ding* moment. Well, more like a 3 watt bulb getting a power surge to 5 watt. Seems I was right on track. -Rock is overpowered, Scissors is fine. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
283
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 16:45:00 -
[434] - Quote
Garr Earthbender wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1907821#post1907821CCP Fozzie wrote:Garr Earthbender wrote:With cruisers not sucking any more, logi cruisers and the like, is it possible that the new FW complex layout (rookie, minor, medium, large) that the idea to have a medium hold all T2 cruisers and below had this rebalance in mind? Yup Ship rebalancing dev blog + plex reassignment gave me a slight *ding* moment. Well, more like a 3 watt bulb getting a power surge to 5 watt. Seems I was right on track. And when T2 cruisers are revised to match some of the changes made to T1 .. then what? |
Garr Earthbender
Justified Chaos
55
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 18:03:00 -
[435] - Quote
Then in a year, that comment will be invalid! -Rock is overpowered, Scissors is fine. |
Sorph
3rd Millennium Group Intergalactic Brotherhood
3
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 23:23:00 -
[436] - Quote
The whole concept of contested systems only makes sense if it were being fought with freelance mercenaries. If there were enough navy to hold these systems, hard boundaries would quickly be established and held. When you want more systems than your navy can defend, this is when you send out freelancers and hope for the best, and see boundaries constantly shifting. In other words, there should be no navy NPCs in contested space.
That is from a realism perspective. From a gaming perspective, NPCs simply ruin PVP. Either it is PVP or it is PVE and as we have witnessed, when you try to mix them it ends up much more one than the other. The only way to balance it would be to have donation matching, i.e. if one player ship is donated to the battle, one NPC ship is donated to match. This of course is just silly. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2416
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 17:25:00 -
[437] - Quote
Without doing more than skim the rest of the thread (sorry) a couple of points:
1: Plex's should never be able to be done solo. Instead of removing NPC EW effects, they should have been balanced to be equally effective for all races. There is far too much solo farming going on currently.
2: Missions should never be able to be solo'd by a frigate (not even a stealth bomber) save for possibly level 1 missions. It is far too easy to evade gate camps in a single frig and does nothing but promote solo farming of the system. Larger ships moving needing to travel behind enemy lines would change the dynamic (and level of cooperation necessary) by quite a bit.
3: Currently players find themselves in positions where they are threatened or war dec'd for taking enemy systems... by their own fellow militia members... because leaving them "vulnerable" makes farming easier. This situation absolutely must change, even if it involves making NPC kills pay zero loyalty points and upping the rewards for killing opposing militia members. If you want to limit people abusing this, place a limit of one LP payout per day for killing a particular character. You could also consider LP payouts not for taking plexes, but for taking systems. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
375
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 20:01:00 -
[438] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Without doing more than skim the rest of the thread (sorry) a couple of points:
1: Plex's should never be able to be done solo. Instead of removing NPC EW effects, they should have been balanced to be equally effective for all races. There is far too much solo farming going on currently.
2: Missions should never be able to be solo'd by a frigate (not even a stealth bomber) save for possibly level 1 missions. It is far too easy to evade gate camps in a single frig and does nothing but promote solo farming of the system. Larger ships needing to travel behind enemy lines would change the dynamic (and level of cooperation necessary) by quite a bit.
3: Currently players find themselves in positions where they are threatened or war dec'd for taking enemy systems... by their own fellow militia members... because leaving them "vulnerable" makes farming easier. This situation absolutely must change, even if it involves making NPC kills pay zero loyalty points and upping the rewards for killing opposing militia members. If you want to limit people abusing this, place a limit of one LP payout per day for killing a particular character. You could also consider LP payouts not for taking plexes, but for taking systems.
1) if you increase the rewards based on more players in the plex, you just get more farmers grouped up in the plex. if you continue to split the reward based on the number in the plex, you'll get more solo farmers. plexes are farms, there's really no way of getting around that with the mechanics.
2) missions shouldn't give lp, and then no one will care if you can solo them in bombers.
3) this is where reading the threads would have helped, since that mechanic is going away. you won't get lp from vulnerable systems. in the new mechanics, you'll actually want to capture and hold all the systems.
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Valkyriy
S O L O M O N STR8NGE BREW
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 11:51:00 -
[439] - Quote
Gate camping /// ganking npc. that throw up bubbles, webs and scrams. Also afk miners, stealth bombers should also spawn NPCs that hunt them down..
Will bring balance to 23/7 gate campers or afk smart bombers.
EVERY region should have at-least one if not a few NPC stations to increase more player interactions.
Have different factions npcs come to drone sec and fight each other. over npc stations..
Thsi would bring more mission types null secs and players could side certain faction npc to help them win soverty to get what missions they like |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
376
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 21:46:00 -
[440] - Quote
Valkyriy wrote:Gate camping /// ganking npc. that throw up bubbles, webs and scrams. Also afk miners, stealth bombers should also spawn NPCs that hunt them down..
Will bring balance to 23/7 gate campers or afk smart bombers.
EVERY region should have at-least one if not a few NPC stations to increase more player interactions.
Have different factions npcs come to drone sec and fight each other. over npc stations..
Thsi would bring more mission types null secs and players could side certain faction npc to help them win soverty to get what missions they like
The FW at the beginning of the thread stands for Factional Warfare. It's not about npcs in general. Feel free to create a new thread for your ideas though.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
612
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 21:59:00 -
[441] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Without doing more than skim the rest of the thread (sorry) a couple of points:
1: Plex's should never be able to be done solo. Instead of removing NPC EW effects, they should have been balanced to be equally effective for all races. There is far too much solo farming going on currently.
The problem is the farming not the solo. If you want to do group farming you can do high sec missions. Faction war plexes should be about frequent quality pvp without the blobs.
Increasing the role of npcs in the war is a step in the wrong direction. CCPs proposed changes are good because they make it so the players decide the outcome of the battles not the npcs.
Ranger 1 wrote: 2: Missions should never be able to be solo'd by a frigate (not even a stealth bomber) save for possibly level 1 missions. It is far too easy to evade gate camps in a single frig and does nothing but promote solo farming of the system. Larger ships needing to travel behind enemy lines would change the dynamic (and level of cooperation necessary) by quite a bit.
Not really. MWD cloak and you can bring a battleship just about anywhere in low sec.
Missions are pretty much fine with the exception that they should have their payouts nerfed, if plexing becomes more of a pvp activity.
Ranger 1 wrote: 3: Currently players find themselves in positions where they are threatened or war dec'd for taking enemy systems... by their own fellow militia members... because leaving them "vulnerable" makes farming easier. This situation absolutely must change, even if it involves making NPC kills pay zero loyalty points and upping the rewards for killing opposing militia members. If you want to limit people abusing this, place a limit of one LP payout per day for killing a particular character. You could also consider LP payouts not for taking plexes, but for taking systems.
I'm not sure what the issue is here. Yes there is currently a strategy on how a militias flip systems. So yeah if a corp purposely screws the rest of the militia they will be unpopular. Unless you want to make it so there is no strategy or planning involved, this will always be the case.
The proposed changes to the tier system do tend to make it so there is no strategy or planning involved in faction war. But I don't really think that is a good thing. Just sort of dumbs it down.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Valkyriy
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 09:36:00 -
[442] - Quote
let rouge drones drop metal scraps or ammo atleast |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
378
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 12:14:00 -
[443] - Quote
Valkyriy wrote:let rouge drones drop metal scraps or ammo atleast
i think you're just trolling now.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
489
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 07:04:00 -
[444] - Quote
This guy has it right.
Variety is good. Timer/hubs should be randomly placed within the plex. Rats should have variety. etc...
Timers are immersion breaking. Completion of tasks is not.
LP bumping a hub is immersion breaking. Benefits based on activity - locals help you (not just anybody) out in return for your service - is not.
Hiro Protagonisti wrote:The FW system lacks immersion. ...stuff...
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
492
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 20:47:00 -
[445] - Quote
Non-immersion breaking defensive plexing:
Defensive plexing involves "shoring up" the defenses of a Navy base of operations. These could include remote repping NPC hulls to get them to their full strength, or perhaps load up missile silos so they can shoot. Once these things are done, the base is fully operational and will help slowly decontest the system as long as it is alive. More reinforcement means decontesting happens more quickly.
Practically what this means is that one player can potentially "reinforce" a series of Navy "bases of operation" and have them help "secure" numerous systems. If there is no attack, system eventually gets decontested - as it should be. These bases of operation are there to help secure the system. No attack on them means they are doing their job.
Non-immersion breaking offensive plexing:
Offensive plexing involves destroying all of the (or a few key) NPCs in a plex. There could be several waves of NPCs to slow the process down a bit in the hopes that fights will happen. System continues to be contested until next Navy base of operation respawns. At that point the system will not be more or less contested since the base of operations is not functional.
Offensive vs. Defensive Balance:
Defense should involve both securing plexes as well as actively defending them. Rate of securing a system would necessarily be slower than rate of contesting a system in order to favor the attacker. The risk here is that the rate of deconesting may be "too fast" to allow for any attacking force to ever hope to win a system, and deconesting "too slowly" puts a system at too much risk when the defenders can't cover a time zone.
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Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
899
|
Posted - 2012.09.30 16:00:00 -
[446] - Quote
Had a discussion with Ty Delaney about this and we sparked an idea...
Take the Faction Warfare missions and use the Epic Arc system to create a few once a day Epic arcs. You can have multiple agents start them or have different agents start different epic arcs, etc.
The point is, that when you pick up the FW Mission Arcs, you go through and run the missions until you finish the sites, and then you can go back and start one the next day. It can have a few Arcs so that it's not always the same, with decisions, but it pushes a storyline (nice for noobs) and it somewhat paces the amount of missions people can do. Which is better than the infinite amount of missions that can be pumped out.
Still profitable? Yes, just not abusable.
As well, if you make a few simple epic arc storylines for L1 to L4 missions, you can use the remote completion of missions (Rather than having to fly back) to collect rewards, perhaps some choices etc.
Unlike the current "Epic arcs" there would not necessarily be a big reward at the end, or the majority of the reward can be at the end of the epic arc rather than in the middle along the way, forcing people to complete to get the big payouts rather than random cash outs that can be abused as right now.
The whole philosophy would work better to bring the FW missions back in line. Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
21
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 17:45:00 -
[447] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: FW COMPLEX CHANGES
Anyone know if these changes are live over on Bucky or Sisi? |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3129
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 19:20:00 -
[448] - Quote
This is a bit of a seperate issue, so I moved the topic to its own thread. But if any of you have an opinion on "diagonal plexing" I've started a discussion thread over here. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3129
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 19:21:00 -
[449] - Quote
Ty Delaney wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: FW COMPLEX CHANGES
Anyone know if these changes are live over on Bucky or Sisi?
Not that I'm aware. If anyone notices them, please share! otherwise none of the FW changes are on the test servers yet to my knowledge. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3129
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 19:38:00 -
[450] - Quote
....and one more thread to house the discussion surrounding dockblocking. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
73
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 19:43:00 -
[451] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Increasing the role of npcs in the war is a step in the wrong direction. CCPs proposed changes are good because they make it so the players decide the outcome of the battles not the npcs.
No it wont since all systems wil be defended by permarunning mwd frigate keeping the timer stopped 300km off until attacker gets bored and leaves the plex. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3130
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 22:05:00 -
[452] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:Cearain wrote:Increasing the role of npcs in the war is a step in the wrong direction. CCPs proposed changes are good because they make it so the players decide the outcome of the battles not the npcs. No it wont since all systems wil be defended by permarunning mwd frigate keeping the timer stopped 300km off until attacker gets bored and leaves the plex.
The feedback against this mechanic was almost universally negative, I told CCP it was a bad idea, and I'd be VERY surprised to see it make it into the final release at this point. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Dan Carter Murray
146
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 04:03:00 -
[453] - Quote
this forum is stickied so i'm posting this here:
i like the npc changes.
i would like you to look at further changes below with regard to plexing and lp:
- lp in plexes does not promote pvp and therefore lp from plexing should be removed
- lp in plexes promotes farming and i'm sure the non-farming FW community would like to know how many farm fit ships have been killed since inferno along with how many farm fit ships have completed sites and how much lp was created using farm fits
- lp from ship and pod kills including cargo in rookie ships should remain (put it back!)
- lp from missions should remain because it's not the easiest thing on earth to run missions on an alt with a stabbed merlin
- remove the 5 tier system and replace with 3 tier system where tier 1 is pre-inferno, tier 2 is 5% less than pre-inferno, and tier 3 is 10% less than pre-inferno
- tier is 100% based on systems owned, including vulnerable systems
- keep docking restrictions as they are now (as Zarnak said, "it raises the stakes")
- look at improving system upgrades to further promote trade, industry, etc.
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Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
73
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 12:53:00 -
[454] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Yuri Intaki wrote:Cearain wrote:Increasing the role of npcs in the war is a step in the wrong direction. CCPs proposed changes are good because they make it so the players decide the outcome of the battles not the npcs. No it wont since all systems wil be defended by permarunning mwd frigate keeping the timer stopped 300km off until attacker gets bored and leaves the plex. The feedback against this mechanic was almost universally negative, I told CCP it was a bad idea, and I'd be VERY surprised to see it make it into the final release at this point.
Except CCP and their devs are more clueless about reality of FW than a tea leaf has about history of East India Company (Sorry for quoting DA) and I am willing to bet everything they outlined for FW changes will happen 100% and you will cheer on because ultimately it will benefit your side since you have more farmers with vested interest for it to happen. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
78
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 23:15:00 -
[455] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
* Complex size and name changes: medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed)
no NO NO NO are you seruios? what the hell are you guys revamping t1 cruisers for? SHOW? your just turning medium plexs into tengu jerk off sessions and o hi you think this is a fair fight decloak 2 falcons.
the whole attration to fw is the medium plex t1 cruiser and navy cruiser fights, not its legendary even scaled gate fights (which their are none)
you need to have a few size plexs for mediums TBH
1 for t1 cruisers and navy 1 for t3,t2,t1 cruisers and navy
thats how it should be.
DO NOT DO THIS CHANGE you WILL KILL FW and your upcoming ZOMG t1 cruiser revamp. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.10.05 00:45:00 -
[456] - Quote
Basically, the two biggest problems (week-old T1 farmer alts and the abuse of faction standings) appear to be resolved by the upcoming changes.
However, several of the proposed changes are very poorly thought-out and will effectively break FW Plexing:
Quote:* Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.
TERRIBLE idea.
This would invariably lead to defensive plexes being perma-trolled by MWD Condor alts orbiting at 150km.
Quote:* Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.
TERRIBLE idea.
The last thing players want is to have their ranged ship dumped at scram range to the button and it doesn't give plex-runners enough time to react to inbound hostiles.
Moving the warp-in to 50km from the button would help, especially as the 30km capture radius allows defenders to cap while 21km from warp-in.
Quote:* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).
TERRIBLE idea.
'Medium' plexes would be a a magnet for Logi/Falcon faggotry, while (farcially) not allowing the BCs required to counter them.
'Rookie' plexes would force people to ship down to T1 frigs they might not even own, instead of the faction frigs and destroyers that are typically part of a small gang.
No. Just no. |
Dan Carter Murray
149
|
Posted - 2012.10.06 23:21:00 -
[457] - Quote
Are the absolutely 100% stupid changes to plexes a 'go' for December? |
Lili Lu
517
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 00:22:00 -
[458] - Quote
Posting to support the growing chorus singing:
DON"T CHANGE THE CURRENT PLEX SIZES AND SHIP RESTRICTIONS
FFS, CCP that is one of the good things you did with your FW revamp. Now you are going to **** up the good along with trying to fix the bad? It makes no sense. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 12:25:00 -
[459] - Quote
Dan Carter Murray wrote:Are the absolutely 100% stupid changes to plexes a 'go' for December?
edit:
@CCP in general. you seem to improve one thing and completely **** up another. who is the mastermind behind all of this stupidity? if there are two masterminds well then keep the one that fixes things and fire the moron who ****s up things.
Alternatively, have NPC stations sell T2 cruisers at T1 prices since apparently that's the only thing that's going to be used from December until you fix the idiocy which you will create by allowing ALL cruisers into medium plexes.
Alternatively to the statement above, just go ahead and scratch all your plans to "fix" cruisers because NONE of them are going to be viable for any plexing in FW.
I whole-heartedly support the immediate dismissal of CCP Moron. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
64
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 12:59:00 -
[460] - Quote
It's funny how bad you all are. I just get the impression that you all fly overpowered pirate faction ships and don't know how to use the scanner. |
|
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
123
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 21:53:00 -
[461] - Quote
How is letting t2 frigates into minors or t2 cruisers into mediums any worse than letting pirate ships into plexes of the appropriate size? Hopefully this means we'll see more t2 cruisers and battleships and fewer battlecruisers.
Also, the rookie plex idea is awesome. If people don't own T1 frigates, they could, I don't know, buy them. It's not like they're expensive. Or if the very notion of flying a t1 frigate offends you, just ignore the rookie plexes and grumble about scrubs ruining EVE.
I also like the idea of replacing FW missions with mini-arcs. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
966
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 23:28:00 -
[462] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:Had a discussion with Ty Delaney about this and we sparked an idea...
Take the Faction Warfare missions and use the Epic Arc system to create a few once a day Epic arcs. You can have multiple agents start them or have different agents start different epic arcs, etc.
The point is, that when you pick up the FW Mission Arcs, you go through and run the missions until you finish the sites, and then you can go back and start one the next day. It can have a few Arcs so that it's not always the same, with decisions, but it pushes a storyline (nice for noobs) and it somewhat paces the amount of missions people can do. Which is better than the infinite amount of missions that can be pumped out.
Still profitable? Yes, just not abusable.
its still abuseable. people would just accept those with a fleet of pods and finish them in an neutral tengu or faction caracal. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
123
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 03:30:00 -
[463] - Quote
Quote:its still abuseable. people would just accept those with a fleet of pods and finish them in an neutral tengu or faction caracal.
Anything which can be repeated or duplicated can be farmed, and will be if it is worth the effort. The only way to get around this is to constrict the supply in a way that is player independent. In order to reduce the number of FW mission farmers, you would either need to make it so there are a finite number of missions available at a given time (which will mostly hurt the people who won't camp the agents all day i.e. the actual pvpers), or make the entry and maintenance costs sufficiently high to discourage the majority of carebears.
You could, I suppose, make it so that FW missions don't give standings, cut the standings gain from plexes, and make standings degrade over time to baseline if not maintained with activity. But that sounds like a bigger pain to the pvper than the carebear. If missions were moderately better than Retribution-Tier 1 income, but were unaffected by tier and required alt-spam to abuse effectively, they'd work as a nice auxiliary source of income if your faction is getting its ass kicked without generating the absolutely insane income you get now at tier 5. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
316
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 08:16:00 -
[464] - Quote
Pirate ships in plexes are a non issue when/if navy hulls are readily available at 1/5th the costs .. hell, if they do the balance pass properly the mere fact that all T1 are being tiericided will make pirate hulls a luxury rather than an iWin button .. T1 hulls are shaping up to be quite powerful and I fully expect the gap between them and T2/pirate to be minuscule by the time the dust settles (ie. after T2/pirate are revised). Eve PvP has always been about paying through the nose to get those few extra percentages that guarantees a win, CCP are now in a position to make that reality for hulls as well as modules.
Bienator II wrote:its still abuseable. people would just accept those with a fleet of pods and finish them in an neutral tengu or faction caracal. Except completing a mission with a non-FW character was declared an exploit ages ago .. would have to be enforced though which is where the issue lies
Milton Middleson wrote:.... Missions only to enemy held space (or even more evil, to border systems only!) and all missions to include a poison pill .. solves any issues related to missions. PvP'ers can and will fight for them with the non-confrontational's being shown the door in short order (if standings remain). No need to create mini-arcs and what not, just increase the risks to be proportionate with the rewards involved, CCP can wield their rotten carrot as long as we get to swing the stick around .. as it was meant to be!
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
521
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 14:08:00 -
[465] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:It's funny how bad you all are. I just get the impression that you all fly overpowered pirate faction ships and don't know how to use the scanner. Actually we just don't want to fight logi/ecm gangs the new medium plexes 23/7. It's bad enough trying to take down a logi gang in a Tier 3 plex with battlecruisers. It will be near impossible to do in a medium plex.
|
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 00:32:00 -
[466] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:How is letting t2 frigates into minors or t2 cruisers into mediums any worse than letting pirate ships into plexes of the appropriate size? Hopefully this means we'll see more t2 cruisers and battleships and fewer battlecruisers.
Once again, because Medium Plexes will be a magnet for Logi/Falcon faggotry, without allowing the BCs required to effectively deal with them...while Minor Plexes will be home to super-tanked Vengeance and ASB Hawks.
The buffs to T1 frig and cruiser hulls make these proposed changes entirely unnecessary to begin with.
Quote:Also, the rookie plex idea is awesome. If people don't own T1 frigates, they could, I don't know, buy them. It's not like they're expensive. Or if the very notion of flying a t1 frigate offends you, just ignore the rookie plexes and grumble about scrubs ruining EVE.
Do a Minor Plex instead.
It's that simple. |
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
21
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 15:00:00 -
[467] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:Quote:its still abuseable. people would just accept those with a fleet of pods and finish them in an neutral tengu or faction caracal. Anything which can be repeated or duplicated can be farmed, and will be if it is worth the effort. The only way to get around this is to constrict the supply in a way that is player independent. In order to reduce the number of FW mission farmers, you would either need to make it so there are a finite number of missions available at a given time (which will mostly hurt the people who won't camp the agents all day i.e. the actual pvpers), or make the entry and maintenance costs sufficiently high to discourage the majority of carebears. You could, I suppose, make it so that FW missions don't give standings, cut the standings gain from plexes, and make standings degrade over time to baseline if not maintained with activity. But that sounds like a bigger pain to the pvper than the carebear. If missions were moderately better than Retribution-Tier 1 income, but were unaffected by tier and required alt-spam to abuse effectively, they'd work as a nice auxiliary source of income if your faction is getting its ass kicked without generating the absolutely insane income you get now at tier 5.
I think the idea we'd had that would throttle back abuse was to make each one of the quest chains contains 'undesirable' missions as part of the arc, in order to continue. The arcs themselves could probably be largely strung together from the existing missions, plus a few new ones (or reskinned non FW missions).
By that, I mean requiring completion on missions that everyone currently skips, because they're a pain do solo. Basically put in missions for each arc that are generally farmer unfriendly, and then load most of the reward at the end of the arc, in the style of the Gurista or Angel arcs.
Hell, hinging an arc on a simple variation on Shades of Grey that featured a couple webbing towers would be enough to force folks into something besides an MSE, AB-fit bomber all the time. |
Deacon Abox
Genstar Inc Villore Accords
5
|
Posted - 2012.10.14 18:14:00 -
[468] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:How is letting t2 frigates into minors or t2 cruisers into mediums any worse than letting pirate ships into plexes of the appropriate size? Hopefully this means we'll see more t2 cruisers and battleships and fewer battlecruisers.
Also, the rookie plex idea is awesome. If people don't own T1 frigates, they could, I don't know, buy them. It's not like they're expensive. Or if the very notion of flying a t1 frigate offends you, just ignore the rookie plexes and grumble about scrubs ruining EVE.
I also like the idea of replacing FW missions with mini-arcs. Because T2 frigates and T2 cruisers means Falcons and tech II logis in the mediums. Much better to have squishy and noob friendlier BBs. It means Rapiers and Lachesises in medium plexes. Say goodbye to all tech I cruisers there then.
As things currently are there are plenty of wonderful tech I frig/destroyer and cruiser battles in the current plex restriction regimes. That won't happen if tech II gets lumped in. Faction and pirate faction are nbd atm. They can often be juicy killmails anyway. But tech II Logis and Recons in the same plexes as tech I cruisers will just destroy any place for tech I cruisers.
These tech II cruisers are fine in majors because you can go in with BCs and have some good fights then.
The current plex restrictions are working quite well. They really cannot be improved upon. Maybe the only suggested change that makes sense is the addition of a rookie plex for noob ships and tech I frigates only.
edit - oh and forgot tech IIIs also. Ugh. |
Planetwhore001
Inappropriate Contact Infinite Improbabilities
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 09:20:00 -
[469] - Quote
Chuckling at the idea that a PVP fit will tank and destroy spawning waves of NPC's over an extended time.
Seriously head over to BC and check out PVP vs PVE fits, there is no comparison. Fighting rats is PVE work, it demands PVE fits and by reducing their DPS to "low" is not going to change that fact.
You want to force PVP into a PVE hat and coat ... guess what it aint gonna work. Lets get down to the nitty gritty here shall we? You effed up with the last update to FW. Lucky for CCP the goons couldn't keep a lid on the absurd loophole your "testing" failed to find [SERIOUSLY not one of your QA guys thought to check???] and CCP got to look all hardcore by flinging around enough mud to cover their own ineptitude.
What you couldn't do anything about was the afk farming of plexs. Why can people afk them, because they are PVE content. Why do they give such ridiculous rewards? Because otherwise Faction Warfare would have died a death by now. So now you want to make them a back up to PVP. Sorry that was a mouthful of coffee hitting the screen.
What you could do is admit that the plexing system is broken beyond repair, scrap it as PVE content and make it into small gang PVP. No seriously.
The whole omg what type of ship can I take into that plex idea is rotten. If people want frigate or destroyer PVP go join RvB or EVE Uni. So rather than the plethora of plexes we reduce it to three types.
Stage 1 requires 4 members of the opposite faction to capture. Stage 2 requires 8 members of the opposite faction to capture. Both are gated to accept all subcaps. Stage 3 require 20 members of the opposite faction to capture and is ungated. Plexs do NOT reward players with LP, instead an arbitary number of control points for that system are removed/added to the system control depending on the winner (using the tried and tested CCP method lets say 20/40 and 100). Each system requires an arbitrary number of control points to upgrade (again lets say 1000). Once the system control falls to the Vunerable status, offensive plexes cease to spawn and defensive plexes spawn. Each plex takes 20 minutes to capture.
The control zone for all of these is 40km, opposing faction ships reset the capture timer if they enter the zone. If there is no member of the opposing faction in system at the time of capture then the point value is 1/4'ed.
So there you have it, a rough idea I know but it does more to promote small gang pvp and involvement as a group than everything CCP has done in the past year. Does it mean that plexing itself brings the player no reward, well yes it does but this is war [insert war face]. This is PVP content, the reward is the fight itself, so buckle up soldier and go win us a system.
Whats that? You want to make isk while fighting the Caldari/Amarr/Minmatar/Froggies (please delete as appropriate). Then go run missions or Incursions. War should not be about making money!!!!
Just for CCP ... you see thats where you failed FW. You bribed people into trying it, and rather than getting the core concept that it is PVP everyone saw the ridiculous earning potential and got on the wagon. The current mess you are dealing with is your OWN fault. Stop trying to bribe people into doing it, make it a true war scenario, get the isk out of FW and let it stand on its own two feet. If it fails after that then you KNOW it was a waste of time. |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1899
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 13:59:00 -
[470] - Quote
Wanted to point you guys towards the other thread where I'm posting some updates. Gonna use that one for consolidated feedback for this round of tweaks. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
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Luc Chastot
Moira. Villore Accords
35
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 14:28:00 -
[471] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Wanted to point you guys towards the other thread where I'm posting some updates. Gonna use that one for consolidated feedback for this round of tweaks.
Would be cool to have a link to get there faster from here. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1027
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 14:36:00 -
[472] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Bienator II wrote:its still abuseable. people would just accept those with a fleet of pods and finish them in an neutral tengu or faction caracal. Except completing a mission with a non-FW character was declared an exploit ages ago .. would have to be enforced though which is where the issue lies thats interesting. Didn't knew that it was considered as an exploit. When i hunt mission runners its basically all i see. Eather they have a FW alt tanking the mission and finishing it with one or two neutral SBs (i seriously don't understand why you need that many SBs) or they are a bit more advanced and do the extreme version wich is typically a neutral tengu and a fleet of alt pods or noob ships to get many missions at once. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3179
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 17:30:00 -
[473] - Quote
Planetwhore001 wrote:Chuckling at the idea that a PVP fit will tank and destroy spawning waves of NPC's over an extended time.
Seriously head over to BC and check out PVP vs PVE fits, there is no comparison. Fighting rats is PVE work, it demands PVE fits and by reducing their DPS to "low" is not going to change that fact.
You want to force PVP into a PVE hat and coat ... guess what it aint gonna work. Lets get down to the nitty gritty here shall we? You effed up with the last update to FW. Lucky for CCP the goons couldn't keep a lid on the absurd loophole your "testing" failed to find [SERIOUSLY not one of your QA guys thought to check???] and CCP got to look all hardcore by flinging around enough mud to cover their own ineptitude.
What you couldn't do anything about was the afk farming of plexs. Why can people afk them, because they are PVE content. Why do they give such ridiculous rewards? Because otherwise Faction Warfare would have died a death by now. So now you want to make them a back up to PVP. Sorry that was a mouthful of coffee hitting the screen.
What you could do is admit that the plexing system is broken beyond repair, scrap it as PVE content and make it into small gang PVP. No seriously.
The whole omg what type of ship can I take into that plex idea is rotten. If people want frigate or destroyer PVP go join RvB or EVE Uni. So rather than the plethora of plexes we reduce it to three types.
Stage 1 requires 4 members of the opposite faction to capture. Stage 2 requires 8 members of the opposite faction to capture. Both are gated to accept all subcaps. Stage 3 require 20 members of the opposite faction to capture and is ungated. Plexs do NOT reward players with LP, instead an arbitary number of control points for that system are removed/added to the system control depending on the winner (using the tried and tested CCP method lets say 20/40 and 100). Each system requires an arbitrary number of control points to upgrade (again lets say 1000). Once the system control falls to the Vunerable status, offensive plexes cease to spawn and defensive plexes spawn. Each plex takes 20 minutes to capture.
The control zone for all of these is 40km, opposing faction ships reset the capture timer if they enter the zone. If there is no member of the opposing faction in system at the time of capture then the point value is 1/4'ed.
So there you have it, a rough idea I know but it does more to promote small gang pvp and involvement as a group than everything CCP has done in the past year. Does it mean that plexing itself brings the player no reward, well yes it does but this is war [insert war face]. This is PVP content, the reward is the fight itself, so buckle up soldier and go win us a system.
Whats that? You want to make isk while fighting the Caldari/Amarr/Minmatar/Froggies (please delete as appropriate). Then go run missions or Incursions. War should not be about making money!!!!
Just for CCP ... you see thats where you failed FW. You bribed people into trying it, and rather than getting the core concept that it is PVP everyone saw the ridiculous earning potential and got on the wagon. The current mess you are dealing with is your OWN fault. Stop trying to bribe people into doing it, make it a true war scenario, get the isk out of FW and let it stand on its own two feet. If it fails after that then you KNOW it was a waste of time.
First off, nobody said anything about waves and waves of NPC's - they are scrapping existing plex content, and re-engineering the *few* NPC's you'll see to be completed using PvP fits. So this PvP or PvE dichotomy you're so fearful of doesnt apply in this case. They are customizing the content to be run by all our PvP ships. I use the term "content" loosely - essentially we are getting NPC proxies for individual player ships warping into the plex. You either kill the enemy player, or kill the rat that warps in, and can use the same ship for both.
You also apparently missed the 4 years where Faction Warfare pilots begged for rewards for plexing so that they didn't have to run missions anymore, and could plex for PvP and earn LP along the way. In trying to thwart CCP's "effing up" of FW, you're also rejecting one of the community's top feature requests.
What CCP did was admit that the plexing system was broken beyond repair, is scrapping it as PVE "content" and is in the process of making it into small gang PVP. Yes seriously.
Calm down and stop wasting good coffee sputtering it all over the screen. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
319
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 18:20:00 -
[474] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:First off ... You are "new" to FW (relatively ) so I'll go easy on you ... hehehehe.
The clamouring for easy LP/ISK was not a thing until the last year prior to changes, personally think it was a combination of Incursion system becoming saturated and panic caused by CCP's tweaking of Sanctums. The three years preceding the establishment of the farm lobby, what we asked/begged for was consequence and balance (biggest annoyance/broken bit: DT shuffle). Missions were so damn easy and lucrative that only the tunnel vision impaired who flat out refuse to do anything resembling PvE wanted an alternative .. they got something even more lucrative while doubling up on the PvE aspect .. orbiting a timer.
Still waiting for updates as to what is planned now after a few months worth of feedback. Initial offering merely cause current bloats to take up defensive farming with no practical way for any change to landscape (barring the infusion of umpteen hundred active pilots as is the case now) .. quite frankly need to know if it worth hanging around for.
Memory Lane: - Back in the day we'd plex a system about halfway, at which point it flared on the map resulting in buckets of blood/tears as enemy scrambled to defend (or proselytize in local ) ..... now you can't even see the region names and you risk burning a hole in your monitor if you are foolish enough to toggle FW state on the map.
- Back in the day we'd regularly punch each other silly in all manner of ships as no one outside FW had any interest in it ..... now (when we left pre-inferno) you get some BC action, anything bigger is dropped on as outside interests brought their bat-phones with them (how many Titans are in play in FW today by the way?).
- Back in the day an aggressive PvP lifestyle was possible with an hour or two per week missioning to sustain it as "our" stuff had value on the market ..... now half the people in FW cannot make ends meet as high-sec can put "our" stuff on market for less so they spend all day orbiting buttons/running missions, accumulating LP in anticipation of the tri-annual monster-flip event that will hopefully keep them afloat until the next event.
Been back for a week or so now and have yet to see anything but ab frigs buzzing around from plex to plex like some damn pollinating bees. Perhaps it is because I haven't been travelling the Huola-Auga pipe as that seems to (still) be the only place one can get a shower (blood, golden, tears .. take your pick).
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Hulkdriver003
Inappropriate Contact Infinite Improbabilities
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 21:03:00 -
[475] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:First off, nobody said anything about waves and waves of NPC's - they are scrapping existing plex content, and re-engineering the *few* NPC's you'll see to be completed using PvP fits. So this PvP or PvE dichotomy you're so fearful of doesnt apply in this case. They are customizing the content to be run by all our PvP ships. I use the term "content" loosely - essentially we are getting NPC proxies for individual player ships warping into the plex. You either kill the enemy player, or kill the rat that warps in, and can use the same ship for both. You also apparently missed the 4 years where Faction Warfare pilots begged for rewards for plexing so that they didn't have to run missions anymore, and could plex for PvP and earn LP along the way. In trying to thwart CCP's "effing up" of FW, you're also rejecting one of the community's top feature requests. What CCP did was admit that the plexing system was broken beyond repair, is scrapping it as PVE "content" and is in the process of making it into small gang PVP. Yes seriously. Calm down and stop wasting good coffee sputtering it all over the screen.
Thank you for the reply, I would like to qualify a little.
As far as all the Dev comments that I have read, the line they are drawing is one of scaled rat sizes and more better AI. It is also mentioned that they will chain upwards in difficulty/size as you kill each "wave" [qualifier - I use wave to mean spawn cycle not number of npc's]. No confirmation has been given of the number of spawns nor of their sizes. If they are aiming towards being easy to kill with PVP fitted ships of appropriate size then what is their point apart from blocking capture?
My second point strikes right at the heart of why FW is broken. As I read it CCP has a vision for FW to be nullsec sov war lite edition. When you go out and PVP in a nullsec war you dont get paid to do it. Admittedly depending on the quality of your alliance/coalition you may get improved ship reimbursements etc (hey now there is an idea ... increase insurance payouts or have a "bonus" payout from the faction). If you want to make isk you have to carebear when things are quiet. In FW we have the exact opposite, you get paid regardless. It is clear bribery. The fact the the current state of FW is the fault of both the "community" [qualified - at my last count of pilots actually involved in PVP kills below the 1000 mark] and CCP for caving to them. Strategic objectives should not reward the pilot directly, but indirectly through system control mechanisms and system boni. You want to make isk, then fine go carebear on missions. HTFU and welcome to Nullsec Lite, none of the flavour and none of the rewards.
The fact is all CCP are doing is a spit and polish, they are not actually under the hood. FW as it stands is the bastardised remnants of 4 years of caving to the "community" and inept idealism. From the original failed launch, through the dry spells, the t Faction battleship fiasco up to the current day, it is just broken. If CCP can fix Crimewatch they sure as hell can fix FW or just put the damn thing down and redeploy the wasted resources to systems that need them more.
Just for the record, yes I do have alts in different faction militia at the moment circle camping for LP. I understand fully what a massive ISK faucet FW is and I am glad to see CCP finally dealing with it. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
532
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 21:42:00 -
[476] - Quote
I remember back in the day when not completing missions had serious consequences my militia standings (Damn you Reggie Kray and your f****** inteceptor!) and therefore the only way to make any isk was to leave theater and do something else. I was perpetually poor since I preferred to have fun fighting rather than make tons of isk for shiny ships. Even so, fights were rare because everybody had to spend so much time creating ways to efficiently generate wealth.
Then they buffed missions to ridiculous levels and I became incredibly wealthy, alts ran FW missions too and also got extremely wealthy. Many FW pvp'ers cried because alts were making as much isk as they were. Then CCP nerfed missions to only OP levels. Most of the alts still ran missions for Caldari and Minmatar because they were easier. I was happy though. I could stay in the FW theater to make isk, but I still had to do it with a PVE ship. While this was an inconvenience, at least I would be able to quickly run a couple missions when things were slow, and if needed I could reship in a somewhat reasonable amount of time if there was a big fight brewing.
Then they buffed FW income again last May. I am now able to stay in theater and make isk in a real pvp ship fighting for occupancy 100% of the time instead of running missions that take me out of my pvp ship. The horror. Alts have come back too. With massive isk comes massive alts. With the introduction of the incredirepping Incursus alts not only farm for Caldari (massive numbers of alts farm for them), but alts farm for my side too. FW pvp'ers are crying again because alts leech off the system (as they always do - "they" meaning both the alts and the FW pvp'ers), but now these alts also affect occupancy. CCP is going to hopefully fix the alt plexing issue enough so that enough of them will find something better to do and hopefully occupancy will be determined more by pvp'ers and less by alts. We'll be back in a better state than we were before May.
People will still cry on the forums about alts still farming because that's what alts do and that's what whiny FW players do as well. We FW players can't appreciate the fact that nowhere else in Eve can you make this much isk without having to run five PvE accounts.
I, on the other hand, will still appreciate the fact that I can make isk in a PvP ship with the option of breaking off my PvE any time I want when I hear that there are WTs one-two jumps away.
Isk is still flowing in. Kills are up. I'm happy. Well done CCP.
|
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1027
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 14:16:00 -
[477] - Quote
A general Q: if npcs switch targets, do they maintain a lock to the last target? a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Hulkdriver003
Inappropriate Contact Infinite Improbabilities
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 17:10:00 -
[478] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:A general Q: if npcs switch targets, do they maintain a lock to the last target?
Based on the behaviour of rats currently I would assume you would remain locked. I do know that Incursion Sansha's do rotate locking ... I suppose it could come down to how many PC's are involved and the max lock number of the rats. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 11:37:00 -
[479] - Quote
Planetwhore001 wrote:Chuckling at the idea that a PVP fit will tank and destroy spawning waves of NPC's over an extended time.
Seriously head over to BC and check out PVP vs PVE fits, there is no comparison. Fighting rats is PVE work, it demands PVE fits and by reducing their DPS to "low" is not going to change that fact.
You want to force PVP into a PVE hat and coat ... guess what it aint gonna work. Lets get down to the nitty gritty here shall we? You effed up with the last update to FW. Lucky for CCP the goons couldn't keep a lid on the absurd loophole your "testing" failed to find [SERIOUSLY not one of your QA guys thought to check???] and CCP got to look all hardcore by flinging around enough mud to cover their own ineptitude.
LOL...what?
A typical brawler Drake can easily run a major outpost and even an open major provided you kill the original spawn from range before triggering timer. Hell, I used to run MEDIUMS with a Hookbill because I was too lazy to reship, back when the NPCs had EWAR.
Unarmed Incursus aren't PVP ships.
|
Planetwhore001
Inappropriate Contact Infinite Improbabilities
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 16:36:00 -
[480] - Quote
Squatdog wrote:Planetwhore001 wrote:Chuckling at the idea that a PVP fit will tank and destroy spawning waves of NPC's over an extended time.
Seriously head over to BC and check out PVP vs PVE fits, there is no comparison. Fighting rats is PVE work, it demands PVE fits and by reducing their DPS to "low" is not going to change that fact.
You want to force PVP into a PVE hat and coat ... guess what it aint gonna work. Lets get down to the nitty gritty here shall we? You effed up with the last update to FW. Lucky for CCP the goons couldn't keep a lid on the absurd loophole your "testing" failed to find [SERIOUSLY not one of your QA guys thought to check???] and CCP got to look all hardcore by flinging around enough mud to cover their own ineptitude. LOL...what? A typical brawler Drake can easily run a major outpost and even an open major provided you kill the original spawn from range before triggering timer. Hell, I used to run MEDIUMS with a Hookbill because I was too lazy to reship, back when the NPCs had EWAR. Unarmed Incursus aren't PVP ships.
Quite agree, unarmed Incursus are not PVP ships, they are PVE ships tuned to the requirements of the content they are engaged in.
As for Drake comment, good luck with that after the winter nerf-date. Seriously, yes there are PVP ships that can double up, the fact that CCP are making it even easier by removing Ewar once more caving to a minority community in a vain attempt to keep their pet system alive.
Hey CCP if those involved in FW started bleating for free carriers I bet you would start seeding them for LP. One cave after another.
|
|
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
470
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 18:50:00 -
[481] - Quote
Planetwhore001 wrote:Squatdog wrote:Planetwhore001 wrote:Chuckling at the idea that a PVP fit will tank and destroy spawning waves of NPC's over an extended time.
Seriously head over to BC and check out PVP vs PVE fits, there is no comparison. Fighting rats is PVE work, it demands PVE fits and by reducing their DPS to "low" is not going to change that fact.
You want to force PVP into a PVE hat and coat ... guess what it aint gonna work. Lets get down to the nitty gritty here shall we? You effed up with the last update to FW. Lucky for CCP the goons couldn't keep a lid on the absurd loophole your "testing" failed to find [SERIOUSLY not one of your QA guys thought to check???] and CCP got to look all hardcore by flinging around enough mud to cover their own ineptitude. LOL...what? A typical brawler Drake can easily run a major outpost and even an open major provided you kill the original spawn from range before triggering timer. Hell, I used to run MEDIUMS with a Hookbill because I was too lazy to reship, back when the NPCs had EWAR. Unarmed Incursus aren't PVP ships. Quite agree, unarmed Incursus are not PVP ships, they are PVE ships tuned to the requirements of the content they are engaged in. As for Drake comment, good luck with that after the winter nerf-date. Seriously, yes there are PVP ships that can double up, the fact that CCP are making it even easier by removing Ewar once more caving to a minority community in a vain attempt to keep their pet system alive. Hey CCP if those involved in FW started bleating for free carriers I bet you would start seeding them for LP. One cave after another.
I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make, as you're already totally uninformed about FW plexes (current and future).
|
Roddex
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.10.22 18:47:00 -
[482] - Quote
Any word on where Tech 3 Cruisers fit into the planned system (at least the current plan)? |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
329
|
Posted - 2012.10.22 19:35:00 -
[483] - Quote
No major changes made to the stuff coming tomorrow so wouldn't expect them to not go with the three size system, meaning they will be allowed in mediums = ISK backbone wins every fight. Good times |
FistyMcBumBasher
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
14
|
Posted - 2012.10.23 11:36:00 -
[484] - Quote
I think the idea to show a timer in local for the plex timer is a bad idea. It will just create more people bum rushing the timer as soon as it is ending in order to eject people/***** lp. I see no need for this and fail to see how it would enhance the pvp experience. |
Anya Doshu
The Angry Celtics
2
|
Posted - 2012.10.23 12:36:00 -
[485] - Quote
TL:DR Most of this 25 pages, so it may have been mentioned.
From a non-FW pilot perspective.
Removing a 'range' limitation to 'occupancy' of a plex by a WT seems to open a possible exploit via grid-fu. It would appear to now be possible to 'occupy' a plex from a range of several thousand kilometers. |
Dread Pirate Pete
Tribal Core Defiant Legacy
84
|
Posted - 2012.10.23 12:39:00 -
[486] - Quote
FistyMcBumBasher wrote:I think the idea to show a timer in local for the plex timer is a bad idea. It will just create more people bum rushing the timer as soon as it is ending in order to eject people/***** lp. I see no need for this and fail to see how it would enhance the pvp experience.
I suspect the idea is to make it easier to find fights, plexes working as "mini-arenas" with ship restrictions and a beacon blaring out "come here for pvp!" all over the system. To avoid people whoring in on lp you could simply put a little marker next to the beacon signifying that it is being run, and by whom. |
Mutrin
Band of Cateteris
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.23 23:28:00 -
[487] - Quote
thx CCP for killing a low-sec and a militia.
|
Jhaelee de'Auvrie
The Peerage Amarr 7th Fleet
3
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 08:06:00 -
[488] - Quote
For the most part, this most recent modification to the FW plex system has been great. Gone are the ab-frigate LP farmers because of the need to now combat the NPCs. Here in though is a potential problem that I came across.
The staggered spawn time and fact that the timer pauses every time a spawn appears means a 50%-100% extension on the time it takes to close each plex. Soloing minor plexes taking 15 minutes is one thing, but trying to solo a Major-Unrestricted is easily an hour long ordeal.
If this is intented, then it changes the time/reward balance of the plexes heavily. TodayGÇÖs plex patrols saw quick jumping on minor plexes, but majors of all of the types completely being ignored. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
334
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 10:36:00 -
[489] - Quote
Jhaelee de'Auvrie wrote:For the most part, this most recent modification to the FW plex system has been great. Gone are the ab-frigate LP farmers because of the need to now combat the NPCs. Here in though is a potential problem that I came across.
The staggered spawn time and fact that the timer pauses every time a spawn appears means a 50%-100% extension on the time it takes to close each plex. Soloing minor plexes taking 15 minutes is one thing, but trying to solo a Major-Unrestricted is easily an hour long ordeal.
If this is intented, then it changes the time/reward balance of the plexes heavily. TodayGÇÖs plex patrols saw quick jumping on minor plexes, but majors of all of the types completely being ignored. Would love it if majors were kept as the ones requiring a gang, soloing them always stroked me the wrong way. My worry is that the NCs coming in December will be too anaemic and can be dropped by any sufficiently large amount of dps, I sort of expect the new Thorax in shield config will be the standard when it comes to future plexing.
But .. might be an idea to look at timers and perhaps reduce them by a bit to account for them not running with a rat present. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
476
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 15:03:00 -
[490] - Quote
With Retribution, it'll be one npc (most likely), so you won't have to be killing off waves of npcs.
|
|
Atomic Option
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
25
|
Posted - 2012.10.28 23:26:00 -
[491] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: With the sleeper AI we basically have a slider to adjust their hatred of drones, we can take them all the way from "Member of NPCs for the ethical treatment of drones" to "Drones killed my parents and forced me into life as a sociopathic superhero" and anywhere in between.
So we'll tweak based on test server feedback.
So THAT's why sleepers hate drones so much. I feel bad for shooting Batmans though. Batman is awesome. |
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
99
|
Posted - 2012.10.29 01:15:00 -
[492] - Quote
If I were to decide Plex sizes, I'd have
1) Rookie (T1 frigates, +faction frigates, maybe) 2) Minor (T2 Destroyers and smaller) 3) Medium (T1 cruisers and smaller) 4) Medium Advanced (BCs and smaller) 5) Major (BS down, with acc gate) 6) Unrestricted (no gate, cynos, alltheshit)
all spawning with the same probability.
I don't think a wider variety of sizes is a problem as long as the information can be read up when clicking the beacon in local (and not just at the Acc Gate, as it is now).
And a system upgrade that could pick on of these plex types and stop their spawning would also be interesting.
P.S: I wonder what CCPs plans for plex sizes look like, right now ? |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
562
|
Posted - 2012.10.29 21:26:00 -
[493] - Quote
BTW, latest "kill all the rats" nerf has proven the "90%" solution we were all waiting for since July.
Now we just need some minor modifications to reduce some cheesy behavior 1. Plexes should despawn after they have been completed even if somebody is still in them.
|
I Abstain
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 05:21:00 -
[494] - Quote
Level 5 upgraded system , 16% contested, Major Outpost, 20 minutes to complete
Loyalty points awarded for militia effort From: Tribal Liberation Force Sent: 2012.10.30 04:27
In recognition of your effort to secure our strategic facility in the contested system of Dal, Tribal Liberation Force grants you 7.810 loyalty points.
3 minutes later my ship gets destroyed, damage 12M isk (fully T2 fitted Incursus, including guns for pvp).
In the old situation 7.810LP would be a ~24M profit (based on a netto profit of selling 2x standard implant)
In the new situation i cannot even buy 1 implant but just 50%, so let-¦s say i make 2 runs = ~ 15.000LP . I need 12.000LP in order to be able to buy 1x standard implant and costs 12M isk.
Conclusion: With the new FW system there are WAY more hostiles around and so securing a 20 minutes time costing Major Outpost has become a burden! 1st. There-¦s a risk you won-¦t even be able to make the full 20 minutes. 2nd. The risk your ship gets podded has become quite a risk that that will happen since the new FW update as there are way more hostiles around now.
Risk vs Reward = negative!
In the above situation you make 1500 LP for 20 minutes of securing a major outpost based on Level 5 (225%bonus) and 16% contested). As there aren-¦t that many L5 systems that are contested, imagine your netto reward resulting to be even less LP's!
Final words: Yes, the old situation was too rewarding but currently the Risk vs Reward is totally not worth the effort at all!
I suggest the following improvements:
1. Reduce the time to complete the outposts, compounds etc. by 50%
2. Increase LP rewards by Rank, i.e. a ranked General should earn more LP than a foot soldier (Warrior)
/ I Abstain |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
346
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 09:56:00 -
[495] - Quote
So you are in a frigate defending a major outpost (designed for BCs!) in a 'base' (read: reships abundant) system and complain that risk/reward is off-kilter? Profit ought to be contingent on peoples ability not to die .. you died and lost more than you gained .. how is that wrong?
Rank should have meaning, but since everyone are maxed within a month it would become meaningless in a heartbeat. |
I Abstain
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 16:08:00 -
[496] - Quote
In fact in my post i state that even a reward based on max. income (major outpost, level 5, 16% contested) is not worth the risk and effort.
Medium and small outposts are not safer at all and you still need to do the same " rituals" that are a great risk like warping to the activation gate, jumping from system to system to find a free outpost and a true risk to get smartbombed at the gates and so on.
In all honosty i really tried to prove my statement wrong today, changed ship types, moved from amarr/minmatar to gallente/caldari regions resulting in a loss of 3 full fitted (T2) incursus, loss of 2x slasher and the loss of a pod with 70M implants. That is 110M loss in just one day and in result zero outposts of any type taken/secured.
As said in my earlier post the risk vs income have become re-tarded since the patch.
Statement: My post is for Devs to read , they can check today-¦s kill history of this toon vs reward. Dev-¦s should bring in a better balance and it-¦s quite urgent. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
348
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 17:45:00 -
[497] - Quote
Understood your post perfectly, you insist on competing in a Pro Tour race (ex. Tour de France) riding a tri-cycle and expect management to change the rules to accommodate your choice of transportation.
Income options have increased since patch as defensive work now pays for the time spent, it is not the systems fault that you think you should be able to make a profit in what is a PvP activity (plexing) without actually participating in said activity. Get a crew together, blow the people standing in your way to smithereens and spread out to available plexes .. unite crew again if enemy has the audacity to reship and come back for more.
If you want to make a profit without all the evil, evil risk then do FW missions. Still solo'able in a bomber (if against Amarr) with no changes until December at the earliest.
In short: FW should be about the pew. Nothing more and nothing less. If one can't hack it in the Blood Bowl then one needs to look elsewhere .. it is a WARZONE, either learn how to kill or survive .. if neither is applicable to your situation then you are in the wrong place to begin with.
PS: Defensive LP is an abomination and should be removed ASAP. Acquiring, fighting for and holding a system should be the only reward in itself (read: meaningful upgrade paths). PPS: Post for the devs .. on a public forum .. perhaps an email and/or petition would be a better option to get shot down by someone with "proper" credentials. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3264
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 18:12:00 -
[498] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:BTW, latest "kill all the rats" nerf has proven the "90%" solution we were all waiting for since July.
Now we just need some minor modifications to reduce some cheesy behavior 1. Plexes should despawn after they have been completed even if somebody is still in them.
This is the infamous bug that was confirmed to have been fixed (again, and again, and again, and again....)
If this is still happening, its likely a byproduct of the recent changes to plex mechanics, because this is the first time I've heard of it since CCP confirmed it being fixed a few weeks after the May summit.
If you're getting this consistently, send me any details you have about how to reproduce it (is it happening in EVERY plex, all the time, or what?) and I'll make sure they get to Fozzie and the team.
Thanks
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
568
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 20:49:00 -
[499] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:X Gallentius wrote:BTW, latest "kill all the rats" nerf has proven the "90%" solution we were all waiting for since July.
Now we just need some minor modifications to reduce some cheesy behavior 1. Plexes should despawn after they have been completed even if somebody is still in them.
This is the infamous bug that was confirmed to have been fixed (again, and again, and again, and again....) If this is still happening, its likely a byproduct of the recent changes to plex mechanics, because this is the first time I've heard of it since CCP confirmed it being fixed a few weeks after the May summit. If you're getting this consistently, send me any details you have about how to reproduce it (is it happening in EVERY plex, all the time, or what?) and I'll make sure they get to Fozzie and the team. Thanks 1. Create plexing alt. 2. Scan down plex. 3. Warp plexing alt to plex. 4. Warp plexing alt into plex. 5. Move plexing alt to timer. 5.5 Go to lunch (do laundry, watch Alliance Tournament videos, whatever) 6. Plex completed. 7. Don't move plexing alt. ?? 8. Plex does not despawn.
|
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
489
|
Posted - 2012.10.31 22:03:00 -
[500] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:X Gallentius wrote:BTW, latest "kill all the rats" nerf has proven the "90%" solution we were all waiting for since July.
Now we just need some minor modifications to reduce some cheesy behavior 1. Plexes should despawn after they have been completed even if somebody is still in them.
This is the infamous bug that was confirmed to have been fixed (again, and again, and again, and again....) If this is still happening, its likely a byproduct of the recent changes to plex mechanics, because this is the first time I've heard of it since CCP confirmed it being fixed a few weeks after the May summit. If you're getting this consistently, send me any details you have about how to reproduce it (is it happening in EVERY plex, all the time, or what?) and I'll make sure they get to Fozzie and the team. Thanks
I've never had a plex despawn if someone is still inside. Are you sure that's the bug they said they were fixing. Nothing else that i know of despawns if someone is still there, so would be odd for FW plexes to be the only thing.
|
|
Dan Carter Murray
179
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 08:42:00 -
[501] - Quote
NPCs and you...
so uh...amarr lasers...
they probably can't even track targets that have cyno'd and are going 0 km/s...
it'd be nice if you could fix that....for example 0.5 tracking for all amarr NPCs...
would be a nice surprise for:
- farmatar
- winmatar
- noskillpvpsoiwilljustflyastabberfleetissuematar
- ohmygodstabberfleetnotenoughletmeget12morematar
- ohdearlordwhyonearthareallthesestabberfleetsnotblobbinghardenoughletmeget7blackbirdsaswellmatar
- etcetcetcetcmatar
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
362
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 19:32:00 -
[502] - Quote
Dan Carter Murray wrote:...would be a nice surprise for:... Heh.
On an unrelated note. Now that NPC destruction is a requirement for plexing, one of three things needs to happen to prevent an outcry (already building in case you were wondering): 1. Bring spawns closer to button. Currently long range ships are superior as they save several minutes per plex in travel time, but long range ships are severely restricted in the primarily close range fighting that FW is comprised which leads to faggotry and PvE fits. 2. Timers should be reduced across the board to compensate for the upto 50% increase a plexer experiences when killing spawns. Not much required, 10-20% reduction should be enough. 3. Timers should be changed to keep counting but not being able to complete with rats on grid. Serves same purpose in that destruction is mandatory but avoids most of the issues described above as rats close on button/orbiter and last spawn generally comes in a few minutes prior to completion. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
495
|
Posted - 2012.11.04 16:15:00 -
[503] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Dan Carter Murray wrote:...would be a nice surprise for:... Heh. On an unrelated note. Now that NPC destruction is a requirement for plexing, one of three things needs to happen to prevent an outcry (already building in case you were wondering): 1. Bring spawns closer to button. Currently long range ships are superior as they save several minutes per plex in travel time, but long range ships are severely restricted in the primarily close range fighting that FW is comprised which leads to faggotry and PvE fits. 2. Timers should be reduced across the board to compensate for the upto 50% increase a plexer experiences when killing spawns. Not much required, 10-20% reduction should be enough. 3. Timers should be changed to keep counting but not being able to complete with rats on grid. Serves same purpose in that destruction is mandatory but avoids most of the issues described above as rats close on button/orbiter and last spawn generally comes in a few minutes prior to completion.
Luckily they're changing it from spawns to spawn in a month, eh? If you have to kill 1 rat each wave, it's hardly going to add 50% to the timer. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
364
|
Posted - 2012.11.04 16:38:00 -
[504] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Luckily they're changing it from spawns to spawn in a month, eh? If you have to kill 1 rat each wave, it's hardly going to add 50% to the timer. True, 50% won't be valid come december, but if spawns still start off 20-30km (that's in minors!) from button the travel time alone will add the mentioned 10-20%.
Personally most partial to the last solution listed as it solves all related issues I can think of without sacrificing the desired outcome, ie. PvP fits capable, farmers hindered.
Will naturally depend on the stats of the new rats, they'll need enough EHP to be obstacles without being massive time-sinks/hindrances and have just enough applied dps to encourage getting rid of them pronto but not enough to be a credible threat if an actual enemy comes around. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
640
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 19:50:00 -
[505] - Quote
Are these changes still planned?
CCP Ytterbium wrote:* Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.
Perosnally I'm not thrilled with this one because I don't like to have to spam the dscan button to avoid getting blobbed. IMO this won't lead to more fights it will just lead to more ganks.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
640
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 19:52:00 -
[506] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:* * Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).
Rookie plexes will be the only place to fly t1 hulls? I like the rookie plex but I would prefer they just add it to the current line up of plexes.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Sean Parisi
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
34
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 00:01:00 -
[507] - Quote
I still believe that the button timer should be randomized between plexes. Some having it 10-20km off from the acceleration gate and others being in their current position. This would make both close range brawling / sniper set ups effective. It would also limit the gunless farmers a bit. |
Irsam Samri
Imperial Outlaws
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 05:32:00 -
[508] - Quote
Sorry late to the party.
Have you guys considered looking at what other games did with their faction war systems? Two come to mind for me:
In Ultima Online, there was a more direct ownership over the captured areas, linking them to guilds and even assigning players special roles for the captured area. Things like (Sheriff of Britain) - A commander which had special access and abilities to fortify the area with strong NPC guards. This could look like points that purchase turrets or upgraded npcs that take awhile to kill at the plex. Assigning player roles as the leadership of the faction really made it have more meaning. I remember being in awe just being around the commanding lord of my faction in UO.
The other game that did it right was Dark age of Camelot. They have a very similar system in that you capture objective castles for realm control. A difference is that the castle took a lot longer than a plex to capture, and it had warnings that allowed players to know that their castle was being attacked, giving them time to respond. A way to replicate this in Eve would be to force the people plexing to "defend" their plex. The timers could be increased slightly, and warnings sent to the corp controlling the area. If the defenders are pushed from the plex, the timer starts over. This encourages fights because the defenders want to hold the plex for the capture.
My main suggestion from other games would be making the faction zones controlled by corps and give them special controls over the system.
-one last thing, it would be REALLY cool, if plexing sites with a group of people increased the difficulty of the plex and gave better rewards and more sovereignty control. It's pointless to plex with other people as a team because the point split is so bad. OR just make plexes that are built for balanced groups (good idea with the new cheap logi ships) |
Liner Xiandra
Caldari State Reserve
13
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 11:20:00 -
[509] - Quote
Sean Parisi wrote:I still believe that the button timer should be randomized between plexes. Some having it 10-20km off from the acceleration gate and others being in their current position. This would make both close range brawling / sniper set ups effective.
This.
Button capture range of 30km + being located 10/20km from accelation gate makes no sense, and would disqualify any sniper setups. |
Garr Earthbender
Justified Chaos
70
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 13:15:00 -
[510] - Quote
Nah. they'd be vialbe still. You just couldn't sit your happy tush on the button and snipe away at anyone coming in. Watch the scanner, anyone comes on short scan, burn away. Easy as that. -Rock is overpowered, Scissors is fine. |
|
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
31
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 15:36:00 -
[511] - Quote
Irsam Samri wrote:The other game that did it right was Dark age of Camelot.
Totally of topic but that game had SO many things right on pvp basis. Its a shame that mythic couldn't repeat same success wiht thier other games. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 00:10:00 -
[512] - Quote
So on Buckingham the new plex sizes seem to be in place and the warp in now seems to drop you 10km from the button, that is very close not really sure that is a good change. It is nice that you start right on top of the rats though.
I assume the NPCGÇÖs have not changed yet, the medium seems to have the rats from the old major, I hope this will change before the 4th.
|
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
423
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 00:17:00 -
[513] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:So on Buckingham the new plex sizes seem to be in place and the warp in now seems to drop you 10km from the button, that is very close not really sure that is a good change. It is nice that you start right on top of the rats though.
I assume the NPCGÇÖs have not changed yet, the medium seems to have the rats from the old major, I hope this will change before the 4th.
The new AI is in. Not sure if the new types and number will make the cut for first release. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
649
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 16:58:00 -
[514] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:So on Buckingham the new plex sizes seem to be in place and the warp in now seems to drop you 10km from the button, that is very close not really sure that is a good change.
Well now when you run a plex you will have to constantly spam your dscan. This combined with the changes to the size restrictions will mean less quality pvp fights and more ganks.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
360
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 00:23:00 -
[515] - Quote
Irsam Samri wrote:-one last thing, it would be REALLY cool, if plexing sites with a group of people increased the difficulty of the plex and gave better rewards and more sovereignty control. It's pointless to plex with other people as a team because the point split is so bad. OR just make plexes that are built for balanced groups (good idea with the new cheap logi ships)
I really like this idea in general. Encourages grouping, rather than current ninjaing, where you spend 10 mins capping the plex, and someone shows up at the last minute and steals half the LP.
However, the balance of scaling is really difficult to get right. I just got out of GW2 which had scaling difficulty based on the number of people. But it was still pretty bad. Beyond a certain point, there were so many people that things, no matter how many and how tough, got completely obliterated within a second of spawning because there was just so much damage going on. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1172
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 05:15:00 -
[516] - Quote
i don't like it very much that the flag moved that close to the warpin. This makes all kiting or sniping setups even more risky to use as they already are, since you will have to prepare to brawl if you want to fight inside a plex. Right now on TQ you still have the chance that the wt is at the flag and not at the warpin, this option won't be there anymore after the change.
I believe the reasoning behind this change was to create more fights and encourage pvp setups in plexes. But i am not sure if thats the right way to encourage those (people would just run earlier... close range dscan and warp). I posted somewhere some time ago that i would prefer to give the plexer a good reason why he should stay and fight. Easiest way i can imagine would be backwards running timers if you leave the plex. Dev response was "still in discussion" or something like that... Seems like CCP decided against it. :-( a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Irsam Samri
Imperial Outlaws
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 05:26:00 -
[517] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Irsam Samri wrote:-one last thing, it would be REALLY cool, if plexing sites with a group of people increased the difficulty of the plex and gave better rewards and more sovereignty control. It's pointless to plex with other people as a team because the point split is so bad. OR just make plexes that are built for balanced groups (good idea with the new cheap logi ships) I really like this idea in general. Encourages grouping, rather than current ninjaing, where you spend 10 mins capping the plex, and someone shows up at the last minute and steals half the LP. However, the balance of scaling is really difficult to get right. I just got out of GW2 which had scaling difficulty based on the number of people. But it was still pretty bad. Beyond a certain point, there were so many people that things, no matter how many and how tough, got completely obliterated within a second of spawning because there was just so much damage going on.
what about linking some of the loyalty points gained from the plex to the npcs killed, and have extra npcs spawn based on how many people are in the plex (to an amount) Doing this could increase the time needed to capture the plex and also raise the damage done by a percentage. So lets say 4 people did a level 1 plex. it ups the difficulty significantly, and makes them wait 25 minutes, and takes 1.4% system sovereignty instead of .7%. Just an example, the numbers are made up. |
Luc Chastot
Moira. Villore Accords
88
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 07:10:00 -
[518] - Quote
Moving the button 25km from the warp-in sounds like a better idea than having it at 10km, to be honest. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
650
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 14:34:00 -
[519] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:i don't like it very much that the flag moved that close to the warpin. This makes all kiting or sniping setups even more risky to use as they already are, since you will have to prepare to brawl if you want to fight inside a plex. Right now on TQ you still have the chance that the wt is at the flag and not at the warpin, this option won't be there anymore after the change.
I believe the reasoning behind this change was to create more fights and encourage pvp setups in plexes. But i am not sure if thats the right way to encourage those (people would just run earlier... close range dscan and warp). I posted somewhere some time ago that i would prefer to give the plexer a good reason why he should stay and fight. Easiest way i can imagine would be backwards running timers if you leave the plex. Dev response was "still in discussion" or something like that... Seems like CCP decided against it. :-(
I think they are doing the backward timer too.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1173
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 15:29:00 -
[520] - Quote
Cearain wrote: I think they are doing the backward timer too.
its not on the testserver the last time i checked a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
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Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
31
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 15:41:00 -
[521] - Quote
It is a matter of kiting ship vs brawling ship.
Right now brawling ships need to make a tactical decission if they want to capture the plex. After spotting the enemy on short scan you have around 30-40 seconds of time to move from button to beacon. If you can manage it, you just might be able to snatch the kiting ship at the acc gate exit. If you can't, you are in for a tough fight where you'll try to slingshot the enemy in before they eat up all your EHP.
With the new change the brawler ships can just camp the exit beacon AND run the plex simultaneously. The kiting ship pilots will hesitate to enter plexes. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1173
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 16:13:00 -
[522] - Quote
Deerin wrote:It is a matter of kiting ship vs brawling ship. right. but why has it been changed? It limits the options for no good reason. At least i see none. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
650
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 16:19:00 -
[523] - Quote
Deerin wrote:It is a matter of kiting ship vs brawling ship.
Right now brawling ships need to make a tactical decission if they want to capture the plex. After spotting the enemy on short scan you have around 30-40 seconds of time to move from button to beacon. If you can manage it, you just might be able to snatch the kiting ship at the acc gate exit. If you can't, you are in for a tough fight where you'll try to slingshot the enemy in before they eat up all your EHP.
With the new change the brawler ships can just camp the exit beacon AND run the plex simultaneously. The kiting ship pilots will hesitate to enter plexes.
They won't hesitate. They won't enter at all unless they want to lose their ship.
But it is not just brawling versus kiting. If I am in a brawling ship now and someone warps in I can try to catch them at the warp in. Or I can stay on the button or align away from warp in to see how they are actually fit. For example most destroyers and frigates can be fit as kiting or brawler. Are they mwd fit? Are they shooting with long range guns? etc. This space between the two combatants helps good players make educated decisions.
This new warp in will mean more decisions will need to be made before the enemy is even on grid. Hence we will have allot more warp offs where there at least potentially could be fights. Either that or people will just agree to make pvp more of a crap shoot. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
650
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 16:21:00 -
[524] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:Deerin wrote:It is a matter of kiting ship vs brawling ship. right. but why has it been changed? It limits the options for no good reason. At least i see none.
I think the reason is ccp hopes more people would get ganked if they are not spamming the dscan. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Colt Blackhawk
The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate
3
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 19:50:00 -
[525] - Quote
Quote:It is a matter of kiting ship vs brawling ship.
Right now brawling ships need to make a tactical decission if they want to capture the plex. After spotting the enemy on short scan you have around 30-40 seconds of time to move from button to beacon. If you can manage it, you just might be able to snatch the kiting ship at the acc gate exit. If you can't, you are in for a tough fight where you'll try to slingshot the enemy in before they eat up all your EHP.
With the new change the brawler ships can just camp the exit beacon AND run the plex simultaneously. The kiting ship pilots will hesitate to enter plexes
Completely agree here. Kiters will not enter plex. We will see a spam of double repped Incursus in the smallest plex. You enter with Condor to kite->You are in scram range=You have no chance.
I would rather do it like that: Let the beacon/warpout distance as it is at offensive plexes and move the warpout to 10km at beacon at defensive plexes. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1175
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 23:09:00 -
[526] - Quote
[quote=Colt Blackhawk]Quote:
I would rather do it like that: Let the beacon/warpout distance as it is at offensive plexes and move the warpout to 10km at beacon at defensive plexes.
there is no difference between defensive and offensive plexes. They are the same thing. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
31
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 03:50:00 -
[527] - Quote
Cearain wrote: They won't hesitate. They won't enter at all unless they want to lose their ship.
That was the point I was trying to make. Camping the beacon and running the timer shouldn't be done simultaneously by one ship. I'm ok with the idea of closing the button to beacon....but not that much.
I think they want to get rid of "bot" plexing by doing this change. I believe they already reduced bots considerably by making npc removal mandatory. I don't know if it is necessary to be working on bot removal in plexes anymore. |
Colt Blackhawk
The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate
3
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 07:35:00 -
[528] - Quote
Quote:there is no difference between defensive and offensive plexes. They are the same thing.
There is a big difference: in offensive plexes you need to shoot npcs in defensive plexes you get in and grab a cup of coffee. Moving the button near warpout in defensive plexes would make them a litle bit more exciting and more rich in variety. But do that with offensive plexes and you will see as I said only brawlers like double repped incursus in the plexes.
|
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
96
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 08:29:00 -
[529] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote:Quote:there is no difference between defensive and offensive plexes. They are the same thing. There is a big difference: in offensive plexes you need to shoot npcs in defensive plexes you get in and grab a cup of coffee. Moving the button near warpout in defensive plexes would make them a litle bit more exciting and more rich in variety. But do that with offensive plexes and you will see as I said only brawlers like double repped incursus in the plexes.
They are the same from a mechanics point of view, it's just that the rats make things different for either faction, the only way I can think of doing this would be to have two buttons one for either faction, linked with one timer but one closer to the warp in for the defender. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
96
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 08:38:00 -
[530] - Quote
In some plexes the beacon is very far off and I can understand some movement but moving it within short point range is a mistake.
If the edge of the timer activation zone was 20km from the warp that might be ok if you were quick enough.
The problem with large timer zones is that it will give much more leeway for position in the plex and this inevitably covers the warp in, if all the zones were 10km radius with the npcGÇÖs spawning close to that point then with 20km distance the plexer could be max 40km distant or 20km close to the warp in to run the plex. A smaller zone to run the timer and a larger zone to contest the timer only may help ships force contestation of the plex without having to be too close. |
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
387
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 09:16:00 -
[531] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:They are the same from a mechanics point of view, it's just that the rats make things different for either faction, the only way I can think of doing this would be to have two buttons one for either faction, linked with one timer but one closer to the warp in for the defender. You are not thinking hard or long enough
- Defender spends 10s on timer after which it begins to count down on its own even if defender leaves vicinity/plex/system. - When a timer has been set to auto-run, initial spawn withdraws as "poddies got our backs!" and future spawns are halved (read: double spawn cycle). - When an attacker enters capture range, timer immediately resets if on auto-run, but spawn cycle remains 'gimped'. - Half of LP-for-Kills (LfK) within a plex earned by a defender counts towards system VP pool and LfK is doubled on grid. - Defensive plexes yield no LP on their own (more than covered by 2x LfK).
= Defensive work suddenly requires actual defence as the gunless frig running from all enemies will effectively hand plexes to the enemy. = Defensive LP farms are eliminated. = Aggressive/effective pew defence can make more LP than current "run-away!" stratagem. = Defender acquires ability to defend system even though plexes themselves are lost provided they kill enough of enemy to counter VP gained by plexes, essentially trading ISK/stockpiles (and killboard epeen) for system VP. = Attacker has to be on the ball in any/all systems being targeted lest defender use auto-run to seize plexes. |
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
137
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 16:46:00 -
[532] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote:They are the same from a mechanics point of view, it's just that the rats make things different for either faction, the only way I can think of doing this would be to have two buttons one for either faction, linked with one timer but one closer to the warp in for the defender. You are not thinking hard or long enough - Defender spends 10s on timer after which it begins to count down on its own even if defender leaves vicinity/plex/system. - When a timer has been set to auto-run, initial spawn withdraws as "poddies got our backs!" and future spawns are halved (read: double spawn cycle). - When an attacker enters capture range, timer immediately resets if on auto-run, but spawn cycle remains 'gimped'. - Half of LP-for-Kills (LfK) within a plex earned by a defender counts towards system VP pool and LfK is doubled on grid. - Defensive plexes yield no LP on their own (more than covered by 2x LfK). = Defensive work suddenly requires actual defence as the gunless frig running from all enemies will effectively hand plexes to the enemy. = Defensive LP farms are eliminated. = Aggressive/effective pew defence can make more LP than current "run-away!" stratagem. = Defender acquires ability to defend system even though plexes themselves are lost provided they kill enough of enemy to counter VP gained by plexes, essentially trading ISK/stockpiles (and killboard epeen) for system VP. = Attacker has to be on the ball in any/all systems being targeted lest defender use auto-run to seize plexes.
But...alts.
What stops me or my corp from using an alt in the enemy militia to gimp all the plexes before we take them ? |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1176
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 22:19:00 -
[533] - Quote
btw i haven't found a single major plex. Whats the status of the FW changes? Is feedback to the current state of the complexes even wanted? a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
388
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 22:44:00 -
[534] - Quote
Sheynan wrote:But...alts.
What stops me or my corp from using an alt in the enemy militia to gimp all the plexes before we take them ? Nothing, but one must assume defenders will come after you at some point which may happen fast or slow depending on whether we get some kind of reporting tool.
Besides #1; It is impossible to design mechanics in Eve that do not favour alts in some way, the best one can do it is mitigate the effectiveness of such use. Besides #2; Defender already had an enormous strategic advantage from having the system in the first place that I have no qualms with forcing him to undock (he can dock, you can't, remember?) once in a while to check on things. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
96
|
Posted - 2012.11.21 10:26:00 -
[535] - Quote
The NPcGÇÖs now seem to have changed; I only encountered one wave of one NPC in each plex. NPC is there on warp in no more NPCGÇÖs spawned.
My vexors drones easily dealt with the cruiser in a medium, I returned in an incurses to tackle the next wave no more NPCGÇÖs.
In the same incursus, single rep about 200dps with void I then: -
Easily killed the frigate in a Rookie.
Tanked the destroyer in a Small for a bit before killing it.
Killed a cruiser in a medium facility.
Killed a battlecruiser in a large compound. This took a little while (couple minutes tops) but orbiting close I was in no danger. Did not even need repper.
I assume these are not finished and that more will be introduced. In the larger sites I feel it the frigates (not present now) that will need to be beefed up, a single battlecruiser is easy to speed tank.
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
388
|
Posted - 2012.11.21 13:08:00 -
[536] - Quote
So combined with frigate revision, FW will be nothing but?
CCP obviously need to tweak some more if all sizes can be done in a single hull as the whole point of the NPC/Plex revamp is to avoid that very scenario .. doesn't much matter if the frig is gunless as now/before or if its a generic pew fit, they should have a hard time in mediums and an impossible time in majors .. we need it to require appropriate ships and or gang operations dammit!
What options are there to avoid the solo frig scenario: - Neuts on cruisers, BCs, BS? - Webs on cruisers, BCs, BS? - Tackling frigs added to pool (kill first and exploit tracking I guess, so bad option)? - Destructible sentry guns? |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
654
|
Posted - 2012.11.21 14:29:00 -
[537] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:The NPcGÇÖs now seem to have changed; I only encountered one wave of one NPC in each plex. NPC is there on warp in no more NPCGÇÖs spawned.
My vexors drones easily dealt with the cruiser in a medium, I returned in an incurses to tackle the next wave no more NPCGÇÖs.
In the same incursus, single rep about 200dps with void I then: -
Easily killed the frigate in a Rookie.
Tanked the destroyer in a Small for a bit before killing it.
Killed a cruiser in a medium facility.
Killed a battlecruiser in a large compound. This took a little while (couple minutes tops) but orbiting close I was in no danger. Did not even need repper.
I assume these are not finished and that more will be introduced. In the larger sites I feel it the frigates (not present now) that will need to be beefed up, a single battlecruiser is easy to speed tank.
Thanks for posting this information.
What sort of tags did they drop?
It sounds like rats active tanks need to be beefed up a bit. But really I think its foolish for ccp to assume rats will be the protection of faction war. To the extent CCP keep focusing on rats as the defense, plexing will remain a farming pve game.
CCP needs to focus on giving players the tools they need to defend their space. Unfortunately I do not see anything in retribution that will accomplish that.
Lots of time and resources spent changing tiers around and lots of resources tweaking with npcs. Nothing to help players defend their space through pvp.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
654
|
Posted - 2012.11.21 14:36:00 -
[538] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:So combined with frigate revision, FW will be nothing but?
CCP obviously need to tweak some more if all sizes can be done in a single hull as the whole point of the NPC/Plex revamp is to avoid that very scenario .. doesn't much matter if the frig is gunless as now/before or if its a generic pew fit, they should have a hard time in mediums and an impossible time in majors .. we need it to require appropriate ships and or gang operations dammit!
What options are there to avoid the solo frig scenario: - Neuts on cruisers, BCs, BS? - Webs on cruisers, BCs, BS? - Tackling frigs added to pool (kill first and exploit tracking I guess, so bad option)? - Destructible sentry guns?
You forgot enemy players coming in a major plex in a bc. That should be able to keep frigates from capturing major plexes.
All this talk the "npcs are too strong" the "npcs are too weak." Its a waste of time. Npcs shouldn't be what is driving the game. Do away with them entirely and give players the tools they need to defend their entire space through pvp. Players have been turned off by the pve nature of faction war since it started.
Yet 4 years later after a full expansion on faction war and the announcements of second we really don't hear a word about tools to help players fight for occupancy through pvp. Just daily updates about how they are changing lp payments and rats around. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
388
|
Posted - 2012.11.21 16:56:00 -
[539] - Quote
Cearain wrote:All this talk the "npcs are too strong" the "npcs are too weak." Its a waste of time.... A year ago I would have yielded that argument to you, but now that CCP has thrown LP into the mix the NPCs are no longer optional so we have to include them in all future deliberations.
Feedback system would go a long way towards allowing pew as the principal defence which should come around Soon-üGäó, which leaves NPCs as a way for CCP to suggest/dictate how and in what plexes ought to be run.
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
631
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 06:25:00 -
[540] - Quote
Cearain wrote: It sounds like rats active tanks need to be beefed up a bit. But really I think its foolish for ccp to assume rats will be the protection of faction war. To the extent CCP keep focusing on rats as the defense, plexing will remain a farming pve game.
They stated that appropriately sized ships will be able to kill rats in plexes. So I think by their own definition they aren't executing this new plex rat feature correctly - yet. |
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Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
515
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 15:21:00 -
[541] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: It sounds like rats active tanks need to be beefed up a bit. But really I think its foolish for ccp to assume rats will be the protection of faction war. To the extent CCP keep focusing on rats as the defense, plexing will remain a farming pve game.
They stated that appropriately sized ships will be able to kill rats in plexes. So I think by their own definition they aren't executing this new plex rat feature correctly - yet.
They're talking about release candidate builds starting early next week, which makes that "yet" a bit troubling. I guess fixing the show info messages and putting the correct rats in the plex aren't hard, but would still love to test to see a working FW system before it goes live.
|
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
2468
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 17:51:00 -
[542] - Quote
There's been a lot of changes and beta versions of the new FW plexes on Bucky lately, but what we have on there as of today is getting very close to ready. If you guys want to check them out we'd welcome feedback.
Known bugs: -The names of the beacons is currently incorrect and doesn't list which type (Stonghold, Installation, Facility) the plex is. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Lili Lu
585
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 19:02:00 -
[543] - Quote
Fozzie, did you guys put medium plexes back to just tech I and faction cruisers? Beacause until you do that you are just breaking one of the best things you did with the initial set of FW plex changes. And, if you persist in allowing tech II and III cruisers into medium plexes you are basically rendering almost all of your effort to rebalance and buff tech I cruisers moot. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
2470
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 19:10:00 -
[544] - Quote
T3s are not allowed into Mediums, T2 cruisers are. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
281
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 19:14:00 -
[545] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:T3s are not allowed into Mediums, T2 cruisers are.
gosh darn it, now i will be killed in my moa by every cerberus that comes along!
oh wait... |
Lili Lu
585
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 19:17:00 -
[546] - Quote
It will still result in HAC, Recon, and tech II logi gangs stomping on any tech I ships that might want to enter. This is fine out in the open. But that has been one of the great things about FW plexe restrictions is the fielding of tech I frigates and cruisers by everyone, new and old players. Changing the restrictions will render tech I cruisers not worth taking into that environment. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
2470
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 19:22:00 -
[547] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:It will still result in HAC, Recon, and tech II logi gangs stomping on any tech I ships that might want to enter. This is fine out in the open. But that has been one of the great things about FW plexe restrictions is the fielding of tech I frigates and cruisers by everyone, new and old players. Changing the restrictions will render tech I cruisers not worth taking into that environment.
I disagree. Bring a recon in against a vexor sitting at 0 on the warpin and see what happens.
BTW for everyone testing, we are aware that the rats are currently not tanking quite as well as we would have liked. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Lili Lu
585
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 19:39:00 -
[548] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Lili Lu wrote:It will still result in HAC, Recon, and tech II logi gangs stomping on any tech I ships that might want to enter. This is fine out in the open. But that has been one of the great things about FW plexe restrictions is the fielding of tech I frigates and cruisers by everyone, new and old players. Changing the restrictions will render tech I cruisers not worth taking into that environment. I disagree. Bring a recon in against a vexor sitting at 0 on the warpin and see what happens. BTW for everyone testing, we are aware that the rats are currently not tanking quite as well as we would have liked. Sure a lone Recon is probably not going to enter a plex that is occupied. But a lone HAC will probably give that a go. There is nothing wrong with having tech II be stronger, they do afterall require more training have better resists.
The point is that the current in-game plex restrictions have been great for the most part. Plenty of tech I frigs and cruisers get used. To mess with what is already working quite well is a perilous thing. I sure hope you are right that tech I cruisers will continue to see lots of use in FW. I don't think they will though. You are removing a place where they could compete. Once people realize they will lose their tech I cruiser gangs to tech II cruiser gangs noone will bother flying tech I cruisers.
FW has been great for tech I frigate and Cruiser use. Because of the current plex restrictions the militias regularly roam in those ships. They can look for fights on roughly equal terms because neither gang is going to be able to follow the other into those sites with beefier ships. Removing a place where tech I cruisers are a requirement will result in them not being sufficient.
Again, i hope you are right. But I think on this, you are not. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
88
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 19:39:00 -
[549] - Quote
Posting here because it's FW-related. Are acceleration gates going to continue to make people invulnerable? **** is ridiculous. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
2470
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 19:48:00 -
[550] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Posting here because it's FW-related. Are acceleration gates going to continue to make people invulnerable? **** is ridiculous.
The fact that someone can always enter a FW plex as long as they do not hang around outside for any length of time is intended design. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
88
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 19:55:00 -
[551] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Posting here because it's FW-related. Are acceleration gates going to continue to make people invulnerable? **** is ridiculous. The fact that someone can always enter a FW plex as long as they do not hang around outside for any length of time is intended design.
But... but I need this for anti-blob work, for splitting people up. Why do you guys hate fun so much? |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
281
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 20:13:00 -
[552] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Posting here because it's FW-related. Are acceleration gates going to continue to make people invulnerable? **** is ridiculous. The fact that someone can always enter a FW plex as long as they do not hang around outside for any length of time is intended design. But... but I need this for anti-blob work, for splitting people up. Why do you guys hate fun so much?
Lol, although I can see what you mean, there is always new tricks that small gangs can pull on blobs :)
bet there will be at least 8 more cool things figured out once the new crimewatch comes into the picture |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3370
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 20:17:00 -
[553] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote: But... but I need this for anti-blob work, for splitting people up. Why do you guys hate fun so much?
Right, anti-blob. So when you're in a thrasher, and you want to run some small plexes, a blob of veterans with a massive HAC/BC fleet and insta-locking tackle can't camp a small and keep you from having fun.
Plex restrictions would be rendered pointless if you couldn't use them to shake a larger blob to begin with. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
88
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 20:26:00 -
[554] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote: But... but I need this for anti-blob work, for splitting people up. Why do you guys hate fun so much? Right, anti-blob. So when you're in a thrasher, and you want to run some small plexes, a blob of veterans with a massive HAC/BC fleet and insta-locking tackle can't camp a small and keep you from having fun. Plex restrictions would be rendered pointless if you couldn't use them to shake a larger blob to begin with.
(such a scrub)
How about don't warp to things with blobs on them? Just like the rest of the time. It's not like it's hard to D-scan or come in at range. All a camp could do to someone who isn't a noob is deny entry.
The idea is to catch stragglers when a gang is inside, so I have 2 warps-worth of time to kill them before backup lands. Also it would be preferable for me to fight people outside a plex if it's not a blobby situation, because I wouldn't have to deal with a tonne of NPCs attacking me for no reason. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3370
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 20:29:00 -
[555] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote: because I wouldn't have to deal with a tonne of NPCs attacking me for no reason.
Have you even looked out the new plexes yet?
And you're welcome to taunt my PvP ability (I'm thoroughly mediocre) but this is not about "L2P, don't warp to blobs noob".
It's about a militia's ability to spread out and cover ALL gates in a system, and effectively lock it down with a blob on each plex as they spawn, preventing ANY ships from entering, even if they are small enough to be permitted and the blob isn't. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
88
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 20:36:00 -
[556] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote: because I wouldn't have to deal with a tonne of NPCs attacking me for no reason. Have you even looked out the new plexes yet? And you're welcome to taunt my PvP ability (I'm thoroughly mediocre) but this is not about "L2P, don't warp to blobs noob". It's about a militia's ability to spread out and cover ALL gates in a system, and effectively lock it down with a blob on each plex as they spawn, preventing ANY ships from entering, even if they are small enough to be permitted and the blob isn't.
I've not, but I look forward to them, even if the gate invulnerability nonsense won't be changed. I don't see why it's important that people have the ability to not get caught on acceleration gates when pretty much every day I run into gangs of instalocking destroyers on stargates (I hate them so much). |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1179
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 20:59:00 -
[557] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:There's been a lot of changes and beta versions of the new FW plexes on Bucky lately (...)
If you guys want to check them out we'd welcome feedback.
feedback is still the same: - having the flag next to the warpin is uncool for various reasons (eliminates kiting ships, makes fight mechanics very similar to normal gatecamps etc.. as already discussed in this thread) - still nobody really answered why this change has been made in the first place esp in context with the other improvements in FW or the possible alternatives for encouraging fights. - i still haven't found a major plex (might be connected to the wrong plex name bug.. don't know) a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
2470
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 21:23:00 -
[558] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:There's been a lot of changes and beta versions of the new FW plexes on Bucky lately (...)
If you guys want to check them out we'd welcome feedback.
feedback is still the same: - having the flag next to the warpin is uncool for various reasons (eliminates kiting ships, makes fight mechanics very similar to normal gatecamps etc.. as already discussed in this thread) - still nobody really answered why this change has been made in the first place esp in context with the other improvements in FW or the possible alternatives for encouraging fights. - i still haven't found a major plex (might be connected to the wrong plex name bug.. don't know)
The large plexes should be appearing as often as the Unrestricted do on TQ.
As for the kiting issue, as of the most recent builds the contesting range of each capture point in every plex is 30km. So you can be contesting the plex while sitting 40km from the entry point, and for fights that start elsewhere you have a bit of room to move around before even leaving contestion range. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
740
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 21:38:00 -
[559] - Quote
I will miss running Majors solo in my Naga. Nothing quite says 'don't even try it' like a Naga. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 21:42:00 -
[560] - Quote
DonGÇÖt really see any change in the NPCGÇÖs from the other day. Took the Incursus out again and killed the single NPC in each plex size rookie, small, medium and Large.
I seem to be only encountering one NPC (although this time I did not hang around for the full timer duration in all plexes)
The NPC drops only one Tag (battle cruiser in large dropped 2) are there any tag changes planned?
The battlecruiser was tanking some damage it is possible that it was the penetrating hits that pushed through its tank.
30km activation zone for timer in plex (seems to be the same for all plex sizes), timer is near the warp in about 10km, still not keen on this distance with this radius it is too easy for a brawler to sit on the warp in. (not sure why I am complaining I normally fit like that anyway)
It is strange but I miss the NPCGÇÖs in a way especially on the test server, you kill one NPC and then just sit flying round in circles, I guess on tranquillity someone is supposed to come along and stop you I just hope that happens more often than it does now.
|
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1179
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 21:55:00 -
[561] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Posting here because it's FW-related. Are acceleration gates going to continue to make people invulnerable? **** is ridiculous. The fact that someone can always enter a FW plex as long as they do not hang around outside for any length of time is intended design. why? a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
2470
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 21:57:00 -
[562] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Posting here because it's FW-related. Are acceleration gates going to continue to make people invulnerable? **** is ridiculous. The fact that someone can always enter a FW plex as long as they do not hang around outside for any length of time is intended design. why?
Because the ship restrictions are rendered moot if instalocking camps can prevent entry. There are opportunities to catch targets either at the place they warp to the plex from (often a gate) or inside the plex, and fighting can occur outside as long as the interested parties do not immediately activate the gate upon landing. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3371
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 22:06:00 -
[563] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:I don't see why it's important that people have the ability to not get caught on acceleration gates when pretty much every day I run into gangs of instalocking destroyers on stargates (I hate them so much).
So in other words, "If I have to suffer this instalocking crap, they should too!" as supposed to "This instalocking crap isn't very fun, wouldn't it be cool if there was a place we could play in the game where this wasn't an issue" Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
88
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 22:28:00 -
[564] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:I don't see why it's important that people have the ability to not get caught on acceleration gates when pretty much every day I run into gangs of instalocking destroyers on stargates (I hate them so much). So in other words, "If I have to suffer this instalocking crap, they should too!" as supposed to "This instalocking crap isn't very fun, wouldn't it be cool if there was a place we could play in the game where this wasn't an issue"
If I were trying to FW plex and hostiles were trying to prevent me from doing so, surely they'd be better off covering the stargates anyway? Unavoidable death for people who don't have scout alts or elite pvp 6th sense, whereas camping the acceleration gate doesn't actually catch anyone who isn't stupid, even if the acceleration gate didn't make the target invulnerable.
How about getting rid of the instalocking entirely, by gutting the effectiveness on all +scan res mods and fixing the stacking on rigs? I think everyone would be down for that, except the awful camper pirates and russians that we all hate. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 22:40:00 -
[565] - Quote
So I went and got a Velator, the frigate in the rookie plex was able to kill me with no extra mods fitted, this may be due as much to my range and speed if the other rookie frigates have better range they may be able to run a rookie plex right out of the box.
Went back in another Velator with a few extra mods and drones, another NPC frigate apeared, first time I have seen a second NPC what causes them to spawn? Killed both NPC frigates though they did get me into armour.
Timer now stuck on contested, not sure why, could not see any more NPCGÇÖs and warped in and out but nothing happening. Must be stuck somehow, itGÇÖs in Fliet.
|
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
2472
|
Posted - 2012.11.23 13:17:00 -
[566] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:So I went and got a Velator, the frigate in the rookie plex was able to kill me with no extra mods fitted, this may be due as much to my range and speed if the other rookie frigates have better range they may be able to run a rookie plex right out of the box.
Went back in another Velator with a few extra mods and drones, another NPC frigate apeared, first time I have seen a second NPC what causes them to spawn? Killed both NPC frigates though they did get me into armour.
Timer now stuck on contested, not sure why, could not see any more NPCGÇÖs and warped in and out but nothing happening. Must be stuck somehow, itGÇÖs in Fliet.
We're actually going to be removing Rookie Ships from plex access and renaming the Rookie plexes into something less confusing, due to concerns about the ease of defensive plexing with noobships. That hasn't made it into the current public build but should be represented on Bucky soon. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Lili Lu
587
|
Posted - 2012.11.23 18:04:00 -
[567] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote:So I went and got a Velator, the frigate in the rookie plex was able to kill me with no extra mods fitted, this may be due as much to my range and speed if the other rookie frigates have better range they may be able to run a rookie plex right out of the box.
Went back in another Velator with a few extra mods and drones, another NPC frigate apeared, first time I have seen a second NPC what causes them to spawn? Killed both NPC frigates though they did get me into armour.
Timer now stuck on contested, not sure why, could not see any more NPCGÇÖs and warped in and out but nothing happening. Must be stuck somehow, itGÇÖs in Fliet.
We're actually going to be removing Rookie Ships from plex access and renaming the Rookie plexes into something less confusing, due to concerns about the ease of defensive plexing with noobships. That hasn't made it into the current public build but should be represented on Bucky soon.
Well, since you are renaming them, and presumably the minor, medium and major paradigm is out, how about adding another level for cruisers?
This would result in the "no longer rookie but no destroyers or tech II frigs", "all small ships", "something that is equivalent to present medium", "something that allows tech II cruisers and BCs", "something that has no subcap ship restrictions and thus BSs". So instead of 4 sizes we would have 5. This would preserve a place for tech I cruisers and tech I cruiser gang roaming in FW.
Otherwise, I will be like everyone else, flying as a scannable tech I or II plexer with a cloaked dishonor Falcon alt in the "cruiser" size plexes. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Drunk 'n' Disorderly
249
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 07:12:00 -
[568] - Quote
I will join in the chorus of "please no t2 cruisers in mediums". Being able to avoid the falcon/rapier/guardian crap (ships that fight bs's out in the open) is one of the best things about fw.
But I will try and state my case in relation to the other plexes:
Destroyers enter the plexes with t2 frigates. It follows that battlecruisers are the tier to fight t2 cruisers.
|
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 09:11:00 -
[569] - Quote
Really hope there are more changes planned.
One NPC spawn for whole duration of plex.
Well fit frigate can kill the NPC in a large plex. The battlecruiser NPC should probably have a 300 dps tank at least.
Still not sure why I see a second NPC sometimes, it may be that another spawns if you cannot kill the first but this would not make sense as you would not be able to run the timer anyway.
Are other changes planned? As is I expect it to be far too easy to manipulate/exploit in a number of ways: -
DPS ship could be used to clear NPC then any stabbed frigate could run the timer.
I expect the venture to be great plex farmer. Can it enter plexes? I have not found one to test.
Low TAG drops how is this being handled?
Suggestions.
NPCGÇÖs should keep spawning through the timer; a ship of the correct size for the plex has no issue dealing with them so it should not be a problem. At least have a spawn a minute from the end of the timer.
Increase number of tags per ship.
I will again state I am not a fan of the T2 cruiser intermixed with the T1 cruisers.
Nor do I like the beacon location change it seems to remove a tactical element from the gameplay.
|
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
2482
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 15:57:00 -
[570] - Quote
During the most recent Buckingham reboot we deployed an updated version of the NPCs, the larger versions especially should tank harder now.
The current mechanics are that one NPC spawns at the start, and the second only appears if you fail to kill the first quickly. If we find that gunless farming begins to return we can put more NPC spawns in at a later point, but in general we want as much of the danger and difficulty of these plexes as possible to be provided by pvp rather than pve.
Let us know what you think of the specs on these latest versions of the rats. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
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Colt Blackhawk
The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate
3
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 16:49:00 -
[571] - Quote
Quote:During the most recent Buckingham reboot we deployed an updated version of the NPCs, the larger versions especially should tank harder now.
The current mechanics are that one NPC spawns at the start, and the second only appears if you fail to kill the first quickly. If we find that gunless farming begins to return we can put more NPC spawns in at a later point, but in general we want as much of the danger and difficulty of these plexes as possible to be provided by pvp rather than pve.
Let us know what you think of the specs on these latest versions of the rats.
No. No. No. Following will happen: One guys in ship with guns will kill the first wave and place an alt in the plex while doing the next wave in another plex and placing another alt on plex and so on. Or fleets of 5 pvp guys who run all plex guards in one system after the other while gunless frig armada follows. NO! Not again. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
98
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 17:11:00 -
[572] - Quote
Been on for a few minutes the battlecruiser tanked my incurses easily, my myrms drones also had a problem and they are supposed to put out somewhere like 380dps and had to use the guns to finish the NPCGÇÖs off so that is a lot better.
Going to say I donGÇÖtGÇÖ really get the logic behind the spawn mechanic.
If the plexer cannot kill the NPC then the timer does not run and no farming takes place, the player is then just circling an NPC wasting ammo, I guess there is a scenario where a ship with borderline DPS gets chased away by the second NPC but I would suggest that players will either break the NPC quickly or will just not be able to in which case further spawns are unnecessary and only open to exploitation (players may deliberately spawn it with an alt to gain a small advantage, many plexes come pre spawned in certain locations already)
I would much rather that second spawn always spawn at the back end of the timer to ensure the ship finishing the timer is still appropriate.
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Drunk 'n' Disorderly
252
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 17:22:00 -
[573] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:The current mechanics are that one NPC spawns at the start, and the second only appears if you fail to kill the first quickly.
This will immediately cause a single rat pop at the start with gunless frigs (probably trial accounts) following to complete. Gunless chain plexing will result almost immediately after this patch is released, please don't bring that back!
Just one rat at the beginning and one rat at the end is still not sufficient (though better).
IMO, the optimal setup is:
4-5 rats spawn. The timer only stops counting if a rat is not killed by the time another rat is ready to spawn. Then the next spawn is paused until the previous rat is killed. Once it is, the queued rat spawns and the timer resumes again.
|
Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D
53
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 17:30:00 -
[574] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Lili Lu wrote:It will still result in HAC, Recon, and tech II logi gangs stomping on any tech I ships that might want to enter. This is fine out in the open. But that has been one of the great things about FW plexe restrictions is the fielding of tech I frigates and cruisers by everyone, new and old players. Changing the restrictions will render tech I cruisers not worth taking into that environment. I disagree. Bring a recon in against a vexor sitting at 0 on the warpin and see what happens.
You are missing the point. Ok, yes you could start with a t1 cruiser in a plex. However, why would you not start by defending with a t2 cruiser? In which case, you'd attack using t2 as well.
It works reasonably well now because in minor plexes, t2 frigates aren't allowed. Faction frigs are debatable, but in most cases, there are practical uses for t1 frigs. Same for mediums. t1 cruisers are used because that's the best available. (plus of course faction). |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
2483
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 17:51:00 -
[575] - Quote
Axl Borlara wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Lili Lu wrote:It will still result in HAC, Recon, and tech II logi gangs stomping on any tech I ships that might want to enter. This is fine out in the open. But that has been one of the great things about FW plexe restrictions is the fielding of tech I frigates and cruisers by everyone, new and old players. Changing the restrictions will render tech I cruisers not worth taking into that environment. I disagree. Bring a recon in against a vexor sitting at 0 on the warpin and see what happens. You are missing the point. Ok, yes you could start with a t1 cruiser in a plex. However, why would you not start by defending with a t2 cruiser? In which case, you'd attack using t2 as well. It works reasonably well now because in minor plexes, t2 frigates aren't allowed. Faction frigs are debatable, but in most cases, there are practical uses for t1 frigs. Same for mediums. t1 cruisers are used because that's the best available. (plus of course faction).
We'll keep an eye on it and can change as needed if the results aren't good. However I plan on using medium plexes to farm HAC kills using my T1 cruisers. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Anna Shoul
14
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 18:00:00 -
[576] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:During the most recent Buckingham reboot we deployed an updated version of the NPCs, the larger versions especially should tank harder now.
Just went into a Caldari Medium Facility with an Atron. My favourite under-3-mil throwaway fit too. Now there's a State Cruiser Wreck and I'm waiting for the button to spin out in solitude. :) Not sure if that was what was intended.
As a side note, the system capture status vanished from the screen after I completed the first plex and never came back. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
632
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 18:05:00 -
[577] - Quote
Anna Shoul wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:During the most recent Buckingham reboot we deployed an updated version of the NPCs, the larger versions especially should tank harder now. Just went into a Caldari Medium Facility with an Atron. My favourite under-3-mil throwaway fit too. Now there's a State Cruiser Wreck and I'm waiting for the button to spin out in solitude. :) Not sure if that was what was intended. As a side note, the system capture status vanished from the screen after I completed the first plex and never came back. Sounds like high-dps short range hulls are a "challenge" for this implementation of FW plexes?
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Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1047
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 18:13:00 -
[578] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Axl Borlara wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Lili Lu wrote:It will still result in HAC, Recon, and tech II logi gangs stomping on any tech I ships that might want to enter. This is fine out in the open. But that has been one of the great things about FW plexe restrictions is the fielding of tech I frigates and cruisers by everyone, new and old players. Changing the restrictions will render tech I cruisers not worth taking into that environment. I disagree. Bring a recon in against a vexor sitting at 0 on the warpin and see what happens. You are missing the point. Ok, yes you could start with a t1 cruiser in a plex. However, why would you not start by defending with a t2 cruiser? In which case, you'd attack using t2 as well. It works reasonably well now because in minor plexes, t2 frigates aren't allowed. Faction frigs are debatable, but in most cases, there are practical uses for t1 frigs. Same for mediums. t1 cruisers are used because that's the best available. (plus of course faction). We'll keep an eye on it and can change as needed if the results aren't good. However I plan on using medium plexes to farm HAC kills using my T1 cruisers.
Eh, sorry.
It's really nice that the FLIPPING designer and known "pro" is thinking about farming T2 HACs. THat's really cute and special and stuff, but thanks for thinking about all the people that are learning to PVP and will never ever ever stand a chance.
Good thinkin.
Where I am. |
Anna Shoul
14
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Posted - 2012.11.26 18:14:00 -
[579] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Sounds like high-dps short range hulls are a "challenge" for this implementation of FW plexes?
Me, I'm not sure that there's a point to have NPCs in plexes at all.
Granted, it took me quite a while to kill that cruiser as my DPS isn't that high in that fit, but it certainly couldn't touch me. Maybe solo NPCs aren't really the way to go - a couple frigs to back it up could cause me problems.
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
2484
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Posted - 2012.11.26 18:20:00 -
[580] - Quote
Anna Shoul wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Sounds like high-dps short range hulls are a "challenge" for this implementation of FW plexes? Me, I'm not sure that there's a point to have NPCs in plexes at all. Granted, it took me quite a while to kill that cruiser as my DPS isn't that high in that fit, but it certainly couldn't touch me. Maybe solo NPCs aren't really the way to go - a couple frigs to back it up could cause me problems.
The NPCs not applying much damage is intentional so that they don't discourage pvp as much as the current system. They exist as speedbumps, and other players are the main event. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
89
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Posted - 2012.11.26 18:31:00 -
[581] - Quote
Do plex timers reset/tick down yet when people warp out? |
Anna Shoul
14
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Posted - 2012.11.26 18:31:00 -
[582] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:The NPCs not applying much damage is intentional so that they don't discourage pvp as much as the current system. They exist as speedbumps, and other players are the main event.
It's not the DPS in this case, but the tracking. At ~1200m/s with an effective orbit radius of ~1500m, it was unable to hit me entirely, so I could orbit it indefinitely. If it's role is to prevent me from plexing with an undersized and underpowered ship, it didn't work very well, I didn't try that Atron fit in a larger plex, but I suspect an all-T2-mods version would kill it anyway. If it's role is just to annoy me and give my FW opponents more time to catch me plexing in their system, well, yes, I suppose it works... ...but it would do best to scram me then. :) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
2484
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Posted - 2012.11.26 18:35:00 -
[583] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Do plex timers reset/tick down yet when people warp out?
Unfortunately we didn't have time to get that into the first Retri release. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Colt Blackhawk
The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate
5
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Posted - 2012.11.26 18:52:00 -
[584] - Quote
I wonder about another problem actually in the design: When a minmatar plexer in minmatar ship is plexing he is also with 80% probability perfectly fitted for pvp. Why? Because he has best possible em and thermal resists. If an amarr plexer tries the same in an amarr laser boat he has some disadvantage: He is probably perfectly fitted vs minmatar rat damage but the chasing minmatar pilot knows that and uses another damage type. Something the amarr pilot cannot do.
On topic:
Please do not start this one wave stuff. I was so happy I didn-¦t see any doublestabbed plexing slashers any more. And do not tell us you will switch it fast if you see too much plexing. You already needed about 5 months to fix the plex issue after Inferno which almost killed whole amarr militia plus absurd amounts of isk for minmatar (yeah congrats plex costs 600m now...) Not to mention this heroic idea at the beginning giving caldari and minnie npcs ewar and amarr plus gallente not.... That was the beginning of the drama. We really don-¦t need that sh..... again. |
MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1162
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 18:53:00 -
[585] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Anna Shoul wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Sounds like high-dps short range hulls are a "challenge" for this implementation of FW plexes? Me, I'm not sure that there's a point to have NPCs in plexes at all. Granted, it took me quite a while to kill that cruiser as my DPS isn't that high in that fit, but it certainly couldn't touch me. Maybe solo NPCs aren't really the way to go - a couple frigs to back it up could cause me problems. The NPCs not applying much damage is intentional so that they don't discourage pvp as much as the current system. They exist as speedbumps, and other players are the main event. love it
can upgraded FW systems give a bonus to how many speed bumps spawn? like 3 max for highest level? 2 for the next lowest, and 1 for every other so it's only a high end bonus? or maybe just maxing out a system makes spawns double so 2 ships show up?
just brain storming http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Drunk 'n' Disorderly
253
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Posted - 2012.11.26 19:06:00 -
[586] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We'll keep an eye on it and can change as needed if the results aren't good. However I plan on using medium plexes to farm HAC kills using my T1 cruisers.
If you want to farm HAC's in a cruiser, you can still do so in the current majors.
A serious question:
Obviously with rookie plexes, frigates are not considered on par with t2 frigates. What makes cruisers vs t2 cruisers different from frigates vs t2 frigates?
Because the coming setup of destroyers vs t2 frigates seems like it should translate to battlecruisers vs t2 cruisers. Same question, what makes this different? |
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
144
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 19:50:00 -
[587] - Quote
I agree, the best solution would IMO be one plex size for every of the 6 ship classes, with t2 rated one class higher. |
Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
747
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 19:54:00 -
[588] - Quote
Why did we cut numbers of NPCs to one at a time? That is crazy. I'll just have to hop into a 500-600 DPS Catalyst and get under the guns of one BS rat to run majors. Or a Stealth bomber.
Here is the thing CCP Fozzie. Every little corp or alliance in FW has a home base system. They also all have a 8 hour blind spot where people of the opposing faction can plex their systems. This new system will bring back the farmers as well as the three hour blocks of time you need to dplex your home system before you can do what you actually want to do.
Currently you need a committed effort to take a system. If rats are interfering with PvP then cutting their DPS and slightly modifying numbers would be the way to go. This is everything plus the kitchen sink.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
632
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Posted - 2012.11.26 19:57:00 -
[589] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Anna Shoul wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Sounds like high-dps short range hulls are a "challenge" for this implementation of FW plexes? Me, I'm not sure that there's a point to have NPCs in plexes at all. Granted, it took me quite a while to kill that cruiser as my DPS isn't that high in that fit, but it certainly couldn't touch me. Maybe solo NPCs aren't really the way to go - a couple frigs to back it up could cause me problems. The NPCs not applying much damage is intentional so that they don't discourage pvp as much as the current system. They exist as speedbumps, and other players are the main event. So, it still takes a sufficiently long time for a lower sized hull to wear down rats in a larger sized plex? If so, then that's fine.
The 600 dps Catalyst option should not be available for larger plexes, but I see this as challenging to achieve if you also want a Drake or other ship to be able to solo a plex as well. Good luck!
The other thing to do is space out the rat spawns so that it makes it more difficult to afk plex with minimum skill alts (spawns at beginning and end of timer, and evenly spaced throughout if there are more than two).
That's probably the best you can do. Then it's up to the players. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1179
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 21:13:00 -
[590] - Quote
i soloed a lage plex in a cheap pvp fitted punisher while playing planetside. (only one cane spawned). I don't see why it is supposed to be better as the current situation. In fact i would be happier if CCP would keep it as is. Having the beacon within warpin range serves no purpose, it rather limits ship options. Having a singe NPC at a time in the plex will just unlock those stealthbombers again - but this time it has sov implications rather then just missioning.
the changes are rather random, e.g. once timer resets are implemented you just could revert most of them. This is the real fix to thie problem. There is still no reason why the plexer should stay and fight. Unless you add a bubble around the flag you can move the warpin wherever you want - its pointless - it just causes other issues a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
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Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
166
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Posted - 2012.11.26 21:15:00 -
[591] - Quote
Farmers gonna farm. The best you can do is make it so the barrier to entry is high enough to deter the casual farmer from rolling nine alts.
Part of making FW a farmer unfriendly area is on the players to make it unpleasant and unprofitable to farm plexes and runaway at the first sign of trouble, but getting the timer reversion in place as fast as possible would be a big help in that regard. |
Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
747
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 22:36:00 -
[592] - Quote
It is reinventing the wheel where no reinvention needs to be done. The most annoying thing about minors is the endless frigate spawns. There is what, seven or eight spawns?? That is annoying but the rats themselves are not a threat in a minor.
Rats in mediums and majors only interfere if there is a full spawn. Make the spawn one at a time - issue solved.
Plexing is a sov mechanic. It needs to be time consuming. One rat at a time is a joke. If this rolls out as is on TQ Amarr will be on their heels again. |
Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
747
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 22:50:00 -
[593] - Quote
One more thing....
I currently run Majors in a Naga. It cuts through the rats like a hot knife through butter. It also gets some great comedy kills when people come into the plex and charge me. The ship itself is at great risk when I'm jumping it in and out of a system I'm trying to plex. It's also very vulnerable until I get range inside a plex. Lastly, cloaky ships are a significant threat.
The button is being moved closer in and the number of rats are being brought down. Do you think I'll continue to risk my Naga? Or just bring a cheap DPS boat?
You should be looking at where the rats spawn relative to the button and how often they spawn. Changing everything is unnecessary. |
Jarin Arenos
Card Shark Industries
47
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Posted - 2012.11.26 23:05:00 -
[594] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We'll keep an eye on it and can change as needed if the results aren't good. However I plan on using medium plexes to farm HAC kills using my T1 cruisers. Eh, sorry. It's really nice that the FLIPPING designer and known "pro" is thinking about farming T2 HACs. THat's really cute and special and stuff, but thanks for thinking about all the people that are learning to PVP and will never ever ever stand a chance. Good thinkin. Gotta emphasize this. C'mon, Fozzie, you're usually so good at keeping personal perspective out of balancing. Don't fail us now! |
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
145
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Posted - 2012.11.26 23:21:00 -
[595] - Quote
I like the new solitary rat, but it should really be tougher.
I was able to blap a the single Harbinger NPC that is guarding a large plex in seconds with my nado.
P.S: Also I repeat: 6 ship classes -> 6 plex sizes, t2 rated one class higher. |
Garr Earthbender
Justified Chaos
80
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Posted - 2012.11.27 00:58:00 -
[596] - Quote
How about that. Battleship sized guns blap slow moving battlecruiser sized NPCs. Go figgure. -Rock is overpowered, Scissors is fine. |
Anna Shoul
14
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Posted - 2012.11.27 03:32:00 -
[597] - Quote
Something random I just thought about.
If my memory serves me right, Faction Warfare LP store offers also include offers that require enemy navy tags. Previously, those tags were plentiful due to being readily available in any plex.
Well, now that there's only one NPC per plex, where exactly are people meant to be getting these? :) |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
33
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Posted - 2012.11.27 06:53:00 -
[598] - Quote
chatgris wrote:I will join in the chorus of "please no t2 cruisers in mediums". Being able to avoid the falcon/rapier/curse/guardian crap (ships that fight bs's out in the open) is one of the best things about fw.
But I will try and state my case in relation to the other plexes:
Destroyers enter the plexes with t2 frigates. It follows that battlecruisers are the tier to fight t2 cruisers.
Concretely, I am suggestig:
Rookie (t1 frigs) Minor (t1 frigs and destroyers and t2 frigs and below) Medium (t1 cruisers and below) Major (t2 cruisers and battlecruisers and below) Unrestricted (everything, no gate as now)
Not only does it keep the fun factor of being able to hide from the null sec style gangs in t1 cruisers, it matches the logic splitting off the rookie plex from the minor plexes.
This. Please do it like this.
Also....the number of farmers have been reduced greatly since the last patch. I no longer try to run med or large plexes in my frigate.....I go and risk my SFI for it if a med or large needs to be done. I don't see any problems with the current NPC's right now.
NPC's should be having same overall difficulty though. Right now I'm mostly safe from amarrian NPC's when I'm 40k away. Should be same difficulty for all races. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
98
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Posted - 2012.11.27 14:21:00 -
[599] - Quote
The battlecruiser in the large plex seems to have the right level of tank now, not much you can do about high DPS destroyers but at least they are quite vulnerable to other ships.
The cruiser in the medium is still vulnerable to my incursus and I feel you can kick itGÇÖs tank up a notch, any of the new cruisers easily put out decent DPS and will have no problem dealing with a bit more tank.
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Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
76
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Posted - 2012.11.30 00:46:00 -
[600] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:The battlecruiser in the large plex seems to have the right level of tank now, not much you can do about high DPS destroyers but at least they are quite vulnerable to other ships.
Vulnerable would be a 1000km bubble around the plex and multiple NPCs that can actually hold at least a T1 frig until the fabled "pvp" comes to the farmer.
Consider this scenario: neutral Daredevil/Vigilant comes in, ganks the 1 NPC ship, moves to next plex. Docks up if anything comes near him. After all plexes cleared, he decloaks the 8 stabbed Condors/Reapers to run the timers. Here he can go afk, and come back 30 minutes later.
Retribution = Farm Wars 2.0. |
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Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
99
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Posted - 2012.11.30 04:31:00 -
[601] - Quote
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote:The battlecruiser in the large plex seems to have the right level of tank now, not much you can do about high DPS destroyers but at least they are quite vulnerable to other ships.
Vulnerable would be a 1000km bubble around the plex and multiple waves of NPCs that can actually hold at least a T1 frig until the fabled "pvp" comes to the farmer. Consider this scenario: neutral Daredevil/Vigilant comes in, ganks the 1 NPC ship, moves to next plex. Docks up if anything comes near him. After all plexes cleared, he decloaks the 8 stabbed Condors/Reapers to run the timers. Here he can go afk, and come back 30 minutes later. Retribution = Farm Wars 2.0.
Earlier in the thread
Alticus C Bear wrote:Really hope there are more changes planned.
DPS ship could be used to clear NPC then any stabbed frigate could run the timer.
Suggestions.
NPCGÇÖs should keep spawning through the timer; a ship of the correct size for the plex has no issue dealing with them so it should not be a problem. At least have a spawn a minute from the end of the timer.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
679
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Posted - 2012.11.30 16:52:00 -
[602] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:It is reinventing the wheel where no reinvention needs to be done. The most annoying thing about minors is the endless frigate spawns. There is what, seven or eight spawns?? That is annoying but the rats themselves are not a threat in a minor.
Rats in mediums and majors only interfere if there is a full spawn. Make the spawn one at a time - issue solved.
Plexing is a sov mechanic. It needs to be time consuming. One rat at a time is a joke. If this rolls out as is on TQ Amarr will be on their heels again.
CCP is doing it right.
If you don't want people to plex in an undersized ship then take an appropriately sized ship (whatever that means) and chase them out. We really shouldn't be depending on npcs to defend our space anyway. We need more tools so we can do that.
But yes the full spawns of the rats are a real problem for medium and major plexes. Even one spawn at a time limits the pvp fits you can use. Not everyone wants to fly a long range rail naga in pvp.
Will the rats the amarr face be more difficult? Why do you say it will hurt the amarr?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
679
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 17:15:00 -
[603] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Axl Borlara wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Lili Lu wrote:It will still result in HAC, Recon, and tech II logi gangs stomping on any tech I ships that might want to enter. This is fine out in the open. But that has been one of the great things about FW plexe restrictions is the fielding of tech I frigates and cruisers by everyone, new and old players. Changing the restrictions will render tech I cruisers not worth taking into that environment. I disagree. Bring a recon in against a vexor sitting at 0 on the warpin and see what happens. You are missing the point. Ok, yes you could start with a t1 cruiser in a plex. However, why would you not start by defending with a t2 cruiser? In which case, you'd attack using t2 as well. It works reasonably well now because in minor plexes, t2 frigates aren't allowed. Faction frigs are debatable, but in most cases, there are practical uses for t1 frigs. Same for mediums. t1 cruisers are used because that's the best available. (plus of course faction). We'll keep an eye on it and can change as needed if the results aren't good. However I plan on using medium plexes to farm HAC kills using my T1 cruisers.
I think the improvements to the t1 cruisers indeed might make this change easier to deal with.
However even with the changes I think the deimos will be pretty hard to beat in a t1 cruiser. So will a kiting vagabond. But this really won't change much since the current mechanics really favore the cynabal and vigilant. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1351
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 10:41:00 -
[604] - Quote
Unsticking, let's make some space for future threads. |
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
691
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 20:11:00 -
[605] - Quote
Friendly rats attack my drones when I have them out.
They attack them even though I have high standing with the faction and do not attack the rats first.
Is this intended? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Garr Earthbender
Justified Chaos
103
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Posted - 2012.12.27 23:44:00 -
[606] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Friendly rats attack my drones when I have them out.
They attack them even though I have high standing with the faction and do not attack the rats first.
Is this intended?
I wanna know too. Cause this is friggin annoying. -Rock is overpowered, Scissors is fine. -Paper |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1638
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Posted - 2013.01.01 02:33:00 -
[607] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Posting here because it's FW-related. Are acceleration gates going to continue to make people invulnerable? **** is ridiculous. The fact that someone can always enter a FW plex as long as they do not hang around outside for any length of time is intended design. Come on, man. I like you and all, but you've been with CCP for six months. Why do you guys always fall back on the "intended design" argument at every opportunity, even when that argument makes no logical sense?
Faction warfare wasn't even a gameplay element when acceleration gates were first introduced into the game. And gate sliding has been an anomaly since before faction warfare.
I very much doubt this was intended design. That the game locks you out of any action, completely obverse to any of the gate's usual behaviour? It's just a side-effect of some other coding that's occurring (session-type changes.) It's a happy side-effect. It probably should never be "fixed" ... but to call it intended it a bit nutty.
Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |
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