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HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.09.11 03:31:00 - [691] Originally by: cosmoray Sorry, no democracy here! Hmmm... I see a lively conversation that just started today. Sorry if people expressing concerns or differing opinions upset you. I had not thought it would but I guess perhaps I over estimated you. Please don't let me interrupt you, continue with the drama bombing. PS: Waving your hands in the air screaming about a lack of democracy only makes me wonder if you understand what a democracy is or if you better understand marketing. See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
KaarBaak Minmatar Squirrel Team	Posted - 2009.09.11 03:55:00 - [692] Originally by: HawkBlade Originally by: cosmoray Sorry, no democracy here! Hmmm... I see a lively conversation that just started today. Sorry if people expressing concerns or differing opinions upset you. I had not thought it would but I guess perhaps I over estimated you. Please don't let me interrupt you, continue with the drama bombing. PS: Waving your hands in the air screaming about a lack of democracy only makes me wonder if you understand what a democracy is or if you better understand marketing. Which makes me wonder if you understand this. KB Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.11 04:11:00 - [693] Originally by: HawkBlade Originally by: cosmoray Sorry, no democracy here! Hmmm... I see a lively conversation that just started today. Sorry if people expressing concerns or differing opinions upset you. I had not thought it would but I guess perhaps I over estimated you. Please don't let me interrupt you, continue with the drama bombing. PS: Waving your hands in the air screaming about a lack of democracy only makes me wonder if you understand what a democracy is or if you better understand marketing. No I don't get upset, I have always loved a good argument. I think I am going to stick to being a drama queen/bomb. When all the sides have finished shouting can you tell me who won! For the record, I have always been a good marketer, but a very poor listener and not very diplomatic. Cost me a few job promotions, according to some of my less than intelligent bosses!!
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.09.11 11:43:00 - [694] Originally by: KaarBaak Which makes me wonder if you understand this. LOL, at least you understood what I was doing. Now wrap your head around the fact that was exactly what I intended. It's called "holding up a mirror" or "pot calling the kettle"... Cosmo is a big enough boy to know that he was being teased. Or, at the least, he's been around long enough to know that if I want to flame... I flame. See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.09.11 14:37:00 - [695] Originally by: HawkBlade Or, at the least, he's been around long enough to know that if I want to flame... I flame. I wouldn't go that far... Black Sun Empire
ProfessorFaust	Posted - 2009.09.11 15:13:00 - [696] Ray McCormack >> I am getting tired of hearing this 1 year crap, and as such have decided to shift to a 3 year schedule. Posted on this thread. Can we get a confirmation on this?
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.11 17:54:00 - [697] Originally by: ProfessorFaust Posted on this thread. Can we get a confirmation on this? Confirming that I posted that. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Tarinara	Posted - 2009.09.11 20:25:00 - [698] So now it's 3 Years?!?! Oh come on guys - just go ahead and steal the damn money already and be done with it. I've already written off my 700+ mil as gone. HaHa ... the jokes on us... I'm just waiting for my commemorative "All my ISK are belong to E-Bank and all I got was this crummy Newbie Frig" Tee Shirt.
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.09.11 20:57:00 - [699] Originally by: Tarinara So now it's 3 Years?!?! Oh come on guys - just go ahead and steal the damn money already and be done with it. I've already written off my 700+ mil as gone. HaHa ... the jokes on us... I'm just waiting for my commemorative "All my ISK are belong to E-Bank and all I got was this crummy Newbie Frig" Tee Shirt. 3 years? The current members of EBANK are going to work, for free, for 36 months for the sole purpose of giving back to others players the money that has been lost. Forgive me for thinking that most players would do better to just take the 40% and spend 3 years tripling their money. Either they can, or they have so much money already they can just write off the loss. This is just plain silly. - Lexander Morinex
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.09.11 21:19:00 - [700] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: ProfessorFaust Posted on this thread. Can we get a confirmation on this? Confirming that I posted that. Surely you jest... Any idea when we will be seeing another official announcement on Ebanks plan of action? Or are plans still in the discussion phase?
Barton Foley	Posted - 2009.09.11 21:35:00 - [701] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: ProfessorFaust Posted on this thread. Can we get a confirmation on this? Confirming that I posted that. Lol semantics. No lol sadly for the idiots who assume that Ray was serious in that post.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.09.11 21:38:00 - [702] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 11/09/2009 21:39:44 Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: ProfessorFaust Posted on this thread. Can we get a confirmation on this? Confirming that I posted that. 3 years is very long for a MMO. How do you think to get back to operativity (because it't what you "secretly" would want to do, right?) since: - If ECR and others fail, there won't be given a second chance for EBANK. - If ECR and others succeed, they'll occupy a lot of your "space" for years and they will have a clean reputation. Edit: the post can be a jest, but 3 years to get back to "black" sound really realistic. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.12 07:10:00 - [703] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: ProfessorFaust Posted on this thread. Can we get a confirmation on this? Confirming that I posted that. ... and we thought DBANK was bad at handling PR (yes, this is a game - but many people have invested significant amounts of time/isk in EBANK - they would certainly appreciate if you could at least try to RP a banker somewhat convincingly. Have a look at Hexxx's statements - usually rather low on facts, but at least one felt somewhat better and reassured after reading them...) " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 07:12:00 - [704] Well, let's just get right down to the bleeding obvious. The one year statement is an aim, one that will be re-evaluated during each stage of the recovery. It is by no means a promise or a guarantee, and quite frankly means bugger all to me. Generating a profit of 1.2t in a year is unlikely to happen; it's possible, but without many more man hour contributions it's not a sound reality. However generating profit is not our only means of reducing the deficit. Other avenues we will be trying include some of the following: * Default collection. * Account closures. * Transfer fees. * Other stuff. So let's avoid making statements about how the Bank promised to generate 1.2t profit in a year, stop picking up your pitchforks and torches in anticipation of the lynching - it will not happen. What will happen when we near the one year mark is a re-evaluation of where we stand, we'll be in a better position to analyse the options and choose a path. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 07:18:00 - [705] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton ... and we thought DBANK was bad at handling PR Cry me a river, I'm not here to mollycoddle you. And do not lecture me on investing significant amounts of time in the Bank. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.12 07:34:00 - [706] Two issues with your statement The one year mark had a very important function - it allowed customers to calculate a (discounted) value of their ISK and have a preference on liquidation or continued operations. Without some credible timeframe the reselling of account balances won't happen, too (leaving you with those annoying & noisy customers who would have preferred liquidation). I can't quite see why any employee of EBANK should be motivated to take part in this venture. Sounds like a lot of work with unclear rewards: iirc they will get paid iff the bank has reopened (which might never happen) and again the variable timeframe for payment (1 < t < infty) means they cannot calculate a discounted value of their own wages, i.e. they have no way of finding out how much they are really being paid (and if the pay is worth their time). Add to this that when talking about periods in the magnitude of a year+, it becomes feasible to roll out a new MD char and build up the credibility the old EBANK-associated character will probably never gain again even allowing for a successful recovery. A new payment system featuring (a) frequent payouts based on individual performance (measured against the EBANK recovery roadmap) and (b) a competitive (and not token) wage-level might not be super popular amongst customers right now, but would imho be the best way of lending EBANK's plans for recovery any credibility " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
SentryRaven KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.12 08:14:00 - [707] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton I can't quite see why any employee of EBANK should be motivated to take part in this venture. Because we don't just wanna walk away and leave the bank in the awful state it is? Considered that? --------
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.12 08:32:00 - [708] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 12/09/2009 08:32:25 Originally by: SentryRaven Because we don't just wanna walk away and leave the bank in the awful state it is? Considered that? I have no doubt that this type of motivation carries you over a few weeks, but evtl. MD will stop caring about EBANK (have a look at DBANK), the workload will continue to be huge and as getting EBANK running again pretty much is a 0/1 game, you cannot expect to get much appreciation from the public during the process of recovery. So, in 6 months you will realize that EBANK is lacking behind on its recovery plan, it's still unclear when you EBANK be able to open again, MD doesn't care about your heroic rescue-efforts anymore and you yourself can't really say why you are investing so much time into this trainwreck. I would not expect staff to outright leave EBANK, but I would expect them to invest less and less labour into this venture and let EBANK die a silent death. Maybe I am wrong, but I would not place any business decision on the hope of people working for purely personal emotional rewards (if they get public appreciation that's another matter). " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.09.12 09:22:00 - [709] Originally by: SentryRaven Originally by: Mme Pinkerton I can't quite see why any employee of EBANK should be motivated to take part in this venture. Because we don't just wanna walk away and leave the bank in the awful state it is? Considered that? Oh please, it was you people that brought it the wreck state in the first place by exclusively tending to your private ventures like regional recycling, freighter production and so on. In truth, Ebank has always been an IPO, a means for a select few to draw enormous amounts of capital and fulfill wildest fantasies while screwing with the secondary market in such a way that no single individual could compete with. And now you got the nerve to ask: Quote: Because we don't just wanna walk away and leave the bank in the awful state it is? I demand concrete action be taken against the 1 year hocus pocus crap. Fist An esteemed group of invididuals should be given the full API keys of every toon involved with Ebank. Second The schedule for recovering 1.2T isk should be revised and adjusted to match the server load of each month. Unless Ebank clearly shows that it can meet the monthly profit quota or close to it, liquidation should be enforced. Black Sun Empire
Mjolnirsmith	Posted - 2009.09.12 09:42:00 - [710] Edited by: Mjolnirsmith on 12/09/2009 09:44:27 Edited by: Mjolnirsmith on 12/09/2009 09:43:08 Originally by: Ray McCormack Well, let's just get right down to the bleeding obvious. The one year statement is an aim, one that will be re-evaluated during each stage of the recovery. It is by no means a promise or a guarantee, and quite frankly means bugger all to me. This quote makes it pretty clear that the project of EBANK is taking priority over the people who, through their isk deposits, made the project possible. Whether it is a year, or two, or three means quite a lot to your former EBANK customers. We don't give a crap anymore about you playing your "market roleplaying" ooooh let's see if we can rebound/recover pet project. Our isk is held at ransom while you explore interesting market roleplaying strategies for a year, or a couple, or a few. Even though the mechanics of how EBANK was set up means that you can hold on to our isk, or what is left of it, and there is nothing we can do to get even a portion of it back until EBANK agrees to do so, it does not mean that you are actually justified in doing so. In a nutshell, "things fell apart, and we now insist that you indulge us even further to see if we can make it right, with no guarantee that we will" is not a justified option. I've got some cool market ideas of my own I'd like to try in the next year, or two, or three, of this MMORPG game. To try out these projects I would like whatever isk you can give back from the failed EBANK project so that I and others can be on our way. You know, It's late, and I have a crude analogy in mind. Maybe others will think it is disanalogous in a lot of ways. But here we go: Suppose I enter into a relationship where my significant other soon starts to abuse me. In a lot of ways ( here I think a lot of feminists would take issue, but oh well ) I am responsible for noticing the early symptoms of my spouse's abusive habits, but for psychological reasons ( delusional hope, attachment, etc ), I discounted the signs and the abuse escalated. Of course the significant other is responsible as well, and probably more responsible, because he has the violent habits coming into the relationship. So claims of " you should not have been in a relationship with the person to begin with: you should have heeded the signs" are true. However, it is not mutually exclusive of the view that the spouse is also responsible, and primarily responsible for introducing the abusive behavior into the relationship (this part of the analogy applies to the people who think "you should have known better" somehow ends the issues one might have with EBANK). Well now suppose some extreme violent act occurs and things really fall apart. The bad habits suddenly become clearly unsustainable habits. I wake up from my rationalizations and realize this relationship is something I need to get out of as quickly as possible. I have a right to do this. I can insist on leaving with whatever measly resources of the relationship are left. The abusing spouse is not in any way entitled to set his own timeframes in which to make things right. I am not obligated to remain in the relationship as his hostage/captive audience to see if he turns around or not. In a nutshell: I can and should walk away, and you are not entitled to a chance to make things right again. I'm guessing as this is an MMORPG, and a spaceship pew pew game the analogy to domestic violence will strike a lot of people as being silly, and it will be flamed/ridiculed. However I think there is a fairly lucid point there about responsibility, what to do when things in some kind of relationship go wrong, and whether the wronged party is in any way obligated to stick around to see if you can make amends (we aren't). Your one year, or couple-year, or few-year plans are self-indulgent, and presume a power that you CAN have because you hold our isk hostage, but which you SHOULD NOT have on normative grounds.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 09:53:00 - [711] I'll make this quite clear, a complete liquidation will never happen whilst I am chairman. I am your villain, demonise me. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.09.12 11:07:00 - [712] I agree with what Mme Pinkerton said, which is basically a longer and more diplomatic version of what I said - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Skarii TuThess Lansez Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 11:39:00 - [713] Originally by: Ray McCormack I'll make this quite clear, a complete liquidation will never happen whilst I am chairman. Why?
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 12:32:00 - [714] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I agree with what Mme Pinkerton said, which is basically a longer and more diplomatic version of what I said Who cares why we want to do this? Originally by: Skarii TuThess Why? For the same reasons Stalin never gave up Russia. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.12 12:45:00 - [715] The 1 year mark is important because it represents the limit of a reasonable time frame for even long-term-minded Eve players. To force gamers into a year long plan with no tangible milestones (no benefit to being halfway)is pushing the limits, while suggesting some indeterminate period longer than 1 year is farcical. As more time passes more people will leave the game and more accounts can be closed or ignored. One day in the indeterminate future EBank will declare a miraculous recovery, but no one will care because they will know it was based on a massive waste of depositors' isk. It is far more likely that this period of irrational exuberance at EBank leads to burnout and greater failure anyway.
Skarii TuThess Lansez Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 12:50:00 - [716] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Skarii TuThess Why? For the same reasons Stalin never gave up Russia. Why did Stalin not give up Russia?
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 12:55:00 - [717] Originally by: Skarii TuThess Why did Stalin not give up Russia? Because of сокол. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.12 12:57:00 - [718] Originally by: Skarii TuThess Why did Stalin not give up Russia? Wikipedia leads you to this Originally by: Nikita Khrushchev Stalin personally called the investigative judge, gave him instructions, and advised him on which investigative methods should be used. These methods were simple -- beat, beat and, beat again. Shortly after the doctors were arrested, we members of the Politbiuro received protocols with the doctors' confessions of guilt. After distributing these protocols, Stalin told us, "You are blind like young kittens. What will happen without me? The country will perish because you do not know how to recognize enemies." The case was presented so that no one could verify the facts on which the investigation was based. There was no possibility of trying to verify facts by contacting those who had made the confessions of guilt. We felt, however, that the case of the arrested doctors was questionable. We knew some of these people personally because they had once treated us. When we examined this "case" after Stalin's death, we found it to have been fabricated from beginning to end. ... which does not bode well for EBANK " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
Johnny Ringo Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.09.12 13:07:00 - [719] Originally by: Ray McCormack I'll make this quite clear, a complete liquidation will never happen whilst I am chairman. I am your villain, demonise me. Done. This makes you a thief or an extortionist in my book. If Ebank won't be liquidated while you are chairman, then resign. It's our money, give those of us who want a portion of it back the option to do so. Or admit that it really is just a scam, and you are just stringing us along, laughing at us for truly believeing it was ever anything else.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 13:12:00 - [720] Originally by: Johnny Ringo If Ebank won't be liquidated while you are chairman, then resign. No. Originally by: Johnny Ringo It's our money, give those of us who want a portion of it back the option to do so. Okay, we'll let you sell your account to someone offering to buy it. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah

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