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Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
184
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Posted - 2012.07.24 19:11:00 -
[121] - Quote
Anyone know how the Ice Mining skill will be applied now that the ice mining function is set by a rig? Will the Ice Mining skill apply tp the rig? How's this gonna work? |
Athos Maulerant
Deep Space Holdings Inc
0
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Posted - 2012.07.24 19:37:00 -
[122] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:Anyone know how the Ice Mining skill will be applied now that the ice mining function is set by a rig? Will the Ice Mining skill apply tp the rig? How's this gonna work?
From what I can tell (and my math skills are horrendous), the Mack and Skiff will both achieve 30 cycles/hr (counting ship roles and skill bonuses but not the rigs). That is down a bit for the Mack which makes ice mining an unprofitable venture. Either those rigs better kick some serious ass or ice prices are going to go even higher. |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
124
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Posted - 2012.07.25 01:48:00 -
[123] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Your regular miner, that poor **** who was paying attention, who had friends with him, who knew what the hell he was doing, will be left untouched by these changes. His hulk's yield will remain the same, and even going into big scary low/nullsec wont improve his condition much. In the current (and, apparently, future) state, he's still a poor **** who play a role so un-challenging that a bot can fill it, and be just as efficient as he is. By that measure, Ratters and Mission runners have it even worse. A bot can do their role more efficiently than they can, not just as efficiently.
A bot could easily handle what a lot of people consider pvp too. Fleet fights, gate camps, and suicide ganking don't exactly take a pro gamer to accomplish. |
Attica
Social Destortion
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 02:54:00 -
[124] - Quote
So if I have a Hulk with 2 MLU II's and my alt flying Itty 5 with 38K cargo who is hauling, will that still give me more ore per hour than the lower exhumers? |
Fluffy Sheep
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 03:11:00 -
[125] - Quote
If there are new rigs for mining, will there be some significant retraining needed to use them? If so, should players be getting a neural remap or something to help those who happen to have all their stats in completely the wrong area? Having previously trained everything they thought they needed in the mining industry then remapped for other things... |
Pipa Porto
485
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Posted - 2012.07.25 03:24:00 -
[126] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Your regular miner, that poor **** who was paying attention, who had friends with him, who knew what the hell he was doing, will be left untouched by these changes. His hulk's yield will remain the same, and even going into big scary low/nullsec wont improve his condition much. In the current (and, apparently, future) state, he's still a poor **** who play a role so un-challenging that a bot can fill it, and be just as efficient as he is. By that measure, Ratters and Mission runners have it even worse. A bot can do their role more efficiently than they can, not just as efficiently. A bot could easily handle what a lot of people consider pvp too. Fleet fights, gate camps, and suicide ganking don't exactly take a pro gamer to accomplish.
That's not really on point, but they really couldn't be botted well. PVP has elements of unpredictability that just don't exist in PVE. Computers don't deal with the unpredictable nearly as well as humans do. They can't improvise for something unplanned. That's not a problem with PVE because there's nothing unpredictable about it, and you can plan for all possible human interaction (neut in Local in null, canflipper in High, probes on DScan in WH -> Dock/POS).
Fleets: First, Text to Speech isn't that good at the moment. Second, a Bot wouldn't likely be able to lose a fight gracefully (E&E, etc). A Bot fleet would be a win-or-whelp fleet. Third, knowing when it's worth using Cap Boosters, when it's safe to pulse your MWD (wrong time and you're stranded trying to align), what to do if the FC goes down, etc. (How do you think a Bot would handle "Target Tackle").
Suicide Ganking requires finding likely targets, which I suppose you could bot, but it would take a fair bit more complicated bot than a PVE one.
Gate Camping really requires a good decloaker if you want to be good at it, which requires manual piloting, which I doubt a bot can do well. A botted gate camp also probably couldn't identify bait and when (and how) to run away.
Anyway, even if botting was efficient at running PVP, that would reinforce my point. A Mining bot is not more efficient at mining than a Human. A mission/ratting bot is more efficient at missioning/ratting than a Human. Therefor, in competition with bots, Miners have a leg up compared to missioners/ratters. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
98
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 03:24:00 -
[127] - Quote
Fluffy Sheep wrote:If there are new rigs for mining, will there be some significant retraining needed to use them? If so, should players be getting a neural remap or something to help those who happen to have all their stats in completely the wrong area? Having previously trained everything they thought they needed in the mining industry then remapped for other things... New rigs -- as they are on SiSi at the time of this posting - which means everything could change:
Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator I: Description: -This ship modification is designed to reduce the duration of ice harvester cycles. -It works solely on Mining barges and Exhumers. -Only one mining or ice harvesting rig can be fitted at a time.
Attributes: Cycle Time Bonus: -12%
Prereqs: Jury Rigging 1 / Mechanics 3
Medium Mercoxit Mining Crystal Optimization I: This ship modification is designed to increase the yield modifier of those modules using Mercoxit mining crystals. It works solely on Mining barges and Exhumers. Only one mining or ice harvesting rig can be fitted at a time.
Attributes: Mining Amount Bonus: +16%
Prereqs: Jury Rigging 1 / Mechanics 3
Both rigs are in the Electronics sub-category.
There will be no 'retraining' necessary. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Pipa Porto
485
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 03:26:00 -
[128] - Quote
Fluffy Sheep wrote:If there are new rigs for mining, will there be some significant retraining needed to use them? If so, should players be getting a neural remap or something to help those who happen to have all their stats in completely the wrong area? Having previously trained everything they thought they needed in the mining industry then remapped for other things...
L5 in a rigging skill takes like a week and a half, and L4 is all you need for T2 rigs.
They're probably gonna stuff it into an existing rig category. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
Pipa Porto
485
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 03:27:00 -
[129] - Quote
Attica wrote:So if I have a Hulk with 2 MLU II's and my alt flying Itty 5 with 38K cargo who is hauling, will that still give me more ore per hour than the lower exhumers?
Yep.
The Mack/Skiff with 2 MLUIIs will be mining about the same as a Hulk with 0 MLUs. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
Fluffy Sheep
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 03:33:00 -
[130] - Quote
Cheers.
Unless the manufacturing costs of ships decreases, I can see prices spiking some what as demand increases. Not only because of more people or alts joining the mining profession, but also because every miner will want a couple of their preferd ship type each with a different rig to save regularly destroying them to change types?
Would be nice to have a specialized ore rig that maybe has the ability to accept either the ice or mercoxit module that can be removed without destruction ;P |
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
883
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 03:57:00 -
[131] - Quote
Denidil wrote:i was able to get the tanking attributes of the hulk modified - and here is the fit comparison for the following fit [which requires a CPU implant]
[Hulk, Highsec Gank proof]
EFT stats (current): 30,235 EHP (20034 shield / 2292 armor / 7909 structure), 107 dps shield tank [passive recharge], Pyfa (test server tank): 42,638 [29814 shield / 5010 armor / 7812 structure), 99.382 dps shield tank [passive recharge]
How does that compare to my current fit (requires EG-604 though EG-605 is cheaper, but not needed with t1 strips):
EFT stats (current): 32,576 EHP (22779 shield / 2265 armor / 7533 structure), 121 DPS shield tank [passive recharge]
[Hulk, EHP] Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Internal Force Field Array I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5 Mining Drone II x5
I haven't yet gotten any ship to mine as much or more than a Hulk on Sisi (built-in +30% yield), but it is more tedious to test when I have to buy and swap modules. |
Industrializata
Imperial Logistics And Research
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 04:39:00 -
[132] - Quote
while now getting with a mack 4 cubes of ice @ 191 seconds ( orca boosted ) , anyone know what would be the new output considering Ice Harvesting Upgrades and the rig?
Thanks in advance! |
Brego Tralowski
T1 Module Supplies.
63
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 05:42:00 -
[133] - Quote
Looks like i'll be using the Machinaw after the update
Flying Logi in an Incursion near you and giving free stuffs to Rookies. |
Dominika Brumarova
Buddel und Schuerf - Mining Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 07:42:00 -
[134] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Some of the changes are good (Procurer/Skiff's HP, Retriever/Mackinaw's cargo hold, the mining yield buff for both ship lines and the mercoxit and Ice rigs). But the unilateral buff of mining barge and exhumers EHP is a terrible thing to do.
Not only is it devaluating the Skiff buff (why bother with it when a hulk can easily reach over 40k EHP?), but it is also making the life of afk-miners and bots much easier, all while not adressing the structural issues of the mining profession: boring, poor and lacking improvement.
What the game need is not brick-tanked barge able to survive to multiple suicide tornadoes. These always existed, they're battleships (and now, skiffs). a 25000m3 ore hold is an amusing gimmick, but ultimately reward peoples who play eve afk.
Your regular miner, that poor **** who was paying attention, who had friends with him, who knew what the hell he was doing, will be left untouched by these changes. His hulk's yield will remain the same, and even going into big scary low/nullsec wont improve his condition much. In the current (and, apparently, future) state, he's still a poor **** who play a role so un-challenging that a bot can fill it, and be just as efficient as he is.
Mining dont need a 100k EHP mining barge, nor a barge able to mine 30 minutes without requiring a single click, mining need a ship, or a mechanism, that makes a human better than a script.
The best post in whole topic. Pure truth! |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 08:53:00 -
[135] - Quote
Dominika Brumarova wrote:The best post in whole topic. Pure truth!
Because Hulk needs 100k m3 cargohold and huge yield boost? |
Kiwis23
Kiwis Corp
8
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 09:10:00 -
[136] - Quote
Question to all those who curse AFK mining - Have you EVER tried to mine for couple hours not-AFK?
AND beeing so low income source, mining MUST be made AFK activity, because nobody will do it other way.
1. I would love to do mining without AFK, but it's too borring. 2. If you make it so I have to sit constantly like running missions - make adequate pay. Nobody wants to actively mine for 1/5th of mission runners pay. 3. High-sec is probably the only place AFK mining occurs, and not counting ice belts it's not that much of afk mining anyway - roids pops really fast...
P.S. Why everybody in every game wants main resource gatherers nerfed to oblivion and DPS chars to get all the glory and money? What if I LIKE crunching rocks, but can't because of absurdicly low pay rate? |
Pipa Porto
488
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 09:25:00 -
[137] - Quote
Kiwis23 wrote:Question to all those who curse AFK mining - Have you EVER tried to mine for couple hours not-AFK?
AND beeing so low income source, mining MUST be made AFK activity, because nobody will do it other way.
1. I would love to do mining without AFK, but it's too borring. 2. If you make it so I have to sit constantly like running missions - make adequate pay. Nobody wants to actively mine for 1/5th of mission runners pay. 3. High-sec is probably the only place AFK mining occurs, and not counting ice belts it's not that much of afk mining anyway - roids pops really fast...
P.S. Why everybody in every game wants main resource gatherers nerfed to oblivion and DPS chars to get all the glory and money? What if I LIKE crunching rocks, but can't because of absurdicly low pay rate?
If it weren't an AFK activity, fewer people would do it (maybe), prices would rise(maybe), and Income would rise to compensate.
The maybes are if the people currently doing it AFK quit in any significant numbers.
The Pay is now entirely driven by miners. Your wage is determined by the aggregate supply the miners produce and the aggregate demand of manufacturing. CCP can't do anything more to change miner's income (more yield would suppress prices, resulting in the same income but with more hauling to do). EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
515
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 09:26:00 -
[138] - Quote
Attica wrote:So if I have a Hulk with 2 MLU II's and my alt flying Itty 5 with 38K cargo who is hauling, will that still give me more ore per hour than the lower exhumers?
Yes.
/Or/ you could have 2 alts, both in Retrievers/Macks for a higher yield (you'll lose a couple of cycles hauling every 10 cycles or so, but it should still turn out higher.) FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
220
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 09:28:00 -
[139] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Attica wrote:So if I have a Hulk with 2 MLU II's and my alt flying Itty 5 with 38K cargo who is hauling, will that still give me more ore per hour than the lower exhumers? Yes. /Or/ you could have 2 alts, both in Retrievers/Macks for a higher yield (you'll lose a couple of cycles hauling every 10 cycles or so, but it should still turn out higher.)
this, i'm considering going from hulk/orca setup to mack/mack setup. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Kiwis23
Kiwis Corp
8
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 09:37:00 -
[140] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:
If it weren't an AFK activity, fewer people would do it (maybe), prices would rise(maybe), and Income would rise to compensate.
The maybes are if the people currently doing it AFK quit in any significant numbers.
The Pay is now entirely driven by miners. Your wage is determined by the aggregate supply the miners produce and the aggregate demand of manufacturing. CCP can't do anything more to change miner's income (more yield would suppress prices, resulting in the same income but with more hauling to do).
And yet they did by removing gun mining from drones and removing meta 0 items from missions instantly reducing mineral ammount gained from shooting guns. What need more is LP nerfing so LP farming would not give such huge rewards. Also nerfing BS bounty a bit... getting paid 1 million+ for 5-6 groups of missiles is too much...
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Pipa Porto
488
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Posted - 2012.07.25 11:03:00 -
[141] - Quote
Kiwis23 wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
If it weren't an AFK activity, fewer people would do it (maybe), prices would rise(maybe), and Income would rise to compensate.
The maybes are if the people currently doing it AFK quit in any significant numbers.
The Pay is now entirely driven by miners. Your wage is determined by the aggregate supply the miners produce and the aggregate demand of manufacturing. CCP can't do anything more to change miner's income (more yield would suppress prices, resulting in the same income but with more hauling to do).
And yet they did by removing gun mining from drones and removing meta 0 items from missions instantly reducing mineral ammount gained from shooting guns. What need more is LP nerfing so LP farming would not give such huge rewards. Also nerfing BS bounty a bit... getting paid 1 million+ for 5-6 groups of missiles is too much...
LP and Isk are the same as Ore. Their only value is in what they buy. If you hadn't noticed, T1 items are a lot more expensive then they used to be, and Mission runners have seen no increase in their nominal income, which means that their real income has declined at the same time that Miners real income has increased.
If miners are unhappy with their pay, a strike will very effectively raise miners incomes (at least, until the strike is over).
Mining Income is currently driven by Miners. CCP fixed the problems that were making that not so. There's nothing more they can do to significantly affect Mining Income. What you're asking for fewer miners, but you don't want mining to take any more effort (mining taking more effort is really the only likely way to get miners to quit). EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1646
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 11:10:00 -
[142] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:CCP fixed the problems that were making that not so. There's nothing more they can do to significantly affect Mining Income.
Apart from, say, buffing mining ships to the point where you can have your max yield and a 30k EHP tank too.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
224
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 11:13:00 -
[143] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:CCP fixed the problems that were making that not so. There's nothing more they can do to significantly affect Mining Income. Apart from, say, buffing mining ships to the point where you can have your max yield and a 30k EHP tank too.
how does tank effect yield in the slightest? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Pipa Porto
488
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 11:21:00 -
[144] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:CCP fixed the problems that were making that not so. There's nothing more they can do to significantly affect Mining Income. Apart from, say, buffing mining ships to the point where you can have your max yield and a 30k EHP tank too.
Higher yield -> Lower mineral prices -> More hauling effort for the same amount of ISK.
Used to not be true of mining ships because the highest yield mining ship in the game was a Sentry Carrier, but since that's no longer true, mining income is controlled by the supply of mining vs the demands of ship building.
Buffing mining ships like you suggest removes any element of decision making. Everybody else has to compromise something for something else when they fit their ships. Why should miners be special? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1646
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 11:33:00 -
[145] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Higher yield -> Lower mineral prices -> More hauling effort for the same amount of ISK.
Exactly.
Pipa Porto wrote:Buffing mining ships like you suggest removes any element of decision making. Everybody else has to compromise something for something else when they fit their ships. Why should miners be special?
It's like you are reading my mind. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
225
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 11:42:00 -
[146] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Higher yield -> Lower mineral prices -> More hauling effort for the same amount of ISK. Exactly. Pipa Porto wrote:Buffing mining ships like you suggest removes any element of decision making. Everybody else has to compromise something for something else when they fit their ships. Why should miners be special? It's like you are reading my mind.
mining ships have 1 purpose. mining. combat ships do not, you have ewar, you have high alpha, you have tacklers etc. you're comparing apples to oranges. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Pipa Porto
488
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 11:42:00 -
[147] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Higher yield -> Lower mineral prices -> More hauling effort for the same amount of ISK. Exactly. Pipa Porto wrote:Buffing mining ships like you suggest removes any element of decision making. Everybody else has to compromise something for something else when they fit their ships. Why should miners be special? It's like you are reading my mind.
I don't follow. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
Tassian Marrix
Spatial Interaction inc. Event Horizon Protocol
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 11:43:00 -
[148] - Quote
Dominika Brumarova wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Some of the changes are good (Procurer/Skiff's HP, Retriever/Mackinaw's cargo hold, the mining yield buff for both ship lines and the mercoxit and Ice rigs). But the unilateral buff of mining barge and exhumers EHP is a terrible thing to do.
Not only is it devaluating the Skiff buff (why bother with it when a hulk can easily reach over 40k EHP?), but it is also making the life of afk-miners and bots much easier, all while not adressing the structural issues of the mining profession: boring, poor and lacking improvement.
What the game need is not brick-tanked barge able to survive to multiple suicide tornadoes. These always existed, they're battleships (and now, skiffs). a 25000m3 ore hold is an amusing gimmick, but ultimately reward peoples who play eve afk.
Your regular miner, that poor **** who was paying attention, who had friends with him, who knew what the hell he was doing, will be left untouched by these changes. His hulk's yield will remain the same, and even going into big scary low/nullsec wont improve his condition much. In the current (and, apparently, future) state, he's still a poor **** who play a role so un-challenging that a bot can fill it, and be just as efficient as he is.
Mining dont need a 100k EHP mining barge, nor a barge able to mine 30 minutes without requiring a single click, mining need a ship, or a mechanism, that makes a human better than a script. The best post in whole topic. Pure truth!
But it is not all truth. Mining did need a ship that could effectively haul for itself and it did need a ship with a solid tank. Now that we will be getting those they can work to fix the second problem of mining being a super boring activity. |
Pipa Porto
488
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 11:47:00 -
[149] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Higher yield -> Lower mineral prices -> More hauling effort for the same amount of ISK. Exactly. Pipa Porto wrote:Buffing mining ships like you suggest removes any element of decision making. Everybody else has to compromise something for something else when they fit their ships. Why should miners be special? It's like you are reading my mind. mining ships have 1 purpose. mining. combat ships do not, you have ewar, you have high alpha, you have tacklers etc. you're comparing apples to oranges.
Compare it to Ratting ships then. Ratting ships have one purpose. To kill red Crosses. They have to sacrifice DPS for Range/Tracking and Tank. The balance between the two is something that they have to figure out.
PVP boats have one purpose: To get the other guy dead. They have to sacrifice some things that make them effective at that in order to stay alive doing so. One shining example. Falcons can be plated or not. Plated falcons survive better, unplated falcons do their job better. Falcons have only one purpose. To jam the enemy. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
224
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 11:55:00 -
[150] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Dave stark wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Higher yield -> Lower mineral prices -> More hauling effort for the same amount of ISK. Exactly. Pipa Porto wrote:Buffing mining ships like you suggest removes any element of decision making. Everybody else has to compromise something for something else when they fit their ships. Why should miners be special? It's like you are reading my mind. mining ships have 1 purpose. mining. combat ships do not, you have ewar, you have high alpha, you have tacklers etc. you're comparing apples to oranges. Compare it to Ratting ships then. Ratting ships have one purpose. To kill red Crosses. They have to sacrifice DPS for Range/Tracking and Tank. The balance between the two is something that they have to figure out. PVP boats have one purpose: To get the other guy dead. They have to sacrifice some things that make them effective at that in order to stay alive doing so. One shining example. Falcons can be plated or not. Plated falcons survive better, unplated falcons do their job better. Falcons have only one purpose. To jam the enemy.
granted, i still don't see the issue with a 30k ehp mining ship with max yield though.
if we could kill a carrier in 30 seconds with a meta fit mael then there'd be tears galore on here. all ccp have done is stopped that happening on a smaller scale. destroyers vs exhumers.
if people want to cry about having to put in real effort to ganking an expensive t2 ship then i'll laugh at them as they laughed at miners. if we were getting 100k ehp skiffs mining more than hulks then yeah you'd have a point. however they don't. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
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