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Vern Aldin
Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Volition Cult
1
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Posted - 2012.07.27 19:24:00 -
[241] - Quote
If the argument for not being able to carry a full set of crystals in the Hulk is that it is meant to be the fleet mining ship then why do the Mackinaw and Skiff also have a 350m3 cargo bay?
All of the mining ships should be able to carry a full set of crystals at a minimum. I do not mind having a tiny cargo bay but if that is the case further reduce the m3 of mining crystals appropriately. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
291
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Posted - 2012.07.27 19:27:00 -
[242] - Quote
Vern Aldin wrote:If the argument for not being able to carry a full set of crystals in the Hulk is that it is meant to be the fleet mining ship then why do the Mackinaw and Skiff also have a 350m3 cargo bay?
All of the mining ships should be able to carry a full set of crystals at a minimum. I do not mind having a tiny cargo bay but if that is the case further reduce the m3 of mining crystals appropriately.
because they have less strips to load, so they need less crystals, so they need less space. not to mention if you're not mining in a fleet you're more likely to cherry pick, therefore even less crystals are needed. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
102
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Posted - 2012.07.27 19:37:00 -
[243] - Quote
Vern Aldin wrote:If the argument for not being able to carry a full set of crystals in the Hulk is that it is meant to be the fleet mining ship then why do the Mackinaw and Skiff also have a 350m3 cargo bay?
All of the mining ships should be able to carry a full set of crystals at a minimum. I do not mind having a tiny cargo bay but if that is the case further reduce the m3 of mining crystals appropriately. Dave pointed out half of the issue.
The other half is that you do NOT need to carry a full set of crystals (e.g. for every ore type). You only need to carry a subset + spares (3 ores + 1 spare for Barges & 5 ores + 2 spares for Exhumers -- is what I'm pusing for). HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
81
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Posted - 2012.07.27 19:52:00 -
[244] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Vern Aldin wrote:If the argument for not being able to carry a full set of crystals in the Hulk is that it is meant to be the fleet mining ship then why do the Mackinaw and Skiff also have a 350m3 cargo bay?
All of the mining ships should be able to carry a full set of crystals at a minimum. I do not mind having a tiny cargo bay but if that is the case further reduce the m3 of mining crystals appropriately. Dave pointed out half of the issue. The other half is that you do NOT need to carry a full set of crystals (e.g. for every ore type). You only need to carry a subset + spares (3 ores + 1 spare for Barges & 5 ores + 2 spares for Exhumers -- is what I'm pusing for).
I think the option to be able to carry a full set of crystals is valid. Do not sell short by asking for too little, no we don't need a full set of crystals, but if you wanted to lug around 2 full sets, why not? Some people only bother with 1-2 sets, some take out 3-5 sets, and some people take as much as possible without interfering with the amount room needed for mining cycles. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
102
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Posted - 2012.07.27 20:12:00 -
[245] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Infinite Force wrote:Vern Aldin wrote:If the argument for not being able to carry a full set of crystals in the Hulk is that it is meant to be the fleet mining ship then why do the Mackinaw and Skiff also have a 350m3 cargo bay?
All of the mining ships should be able to carry a full set of crystals at a minimum. I do not mind having a tiny cargo bay but if that is the case further reduce the m3 of mining crystals appropriately. Dave pointed out half of the issue. The other half is that you do NOT need to carry a full set of crystals (e.g. for every ore type). You only need to carry a subset + spares (3 ores + 1 spare for Barges & 5 ores + 2 spares for Exhumers -- is what I'm pusing for). I think the option to be able to carry a full set of crystals is valid. Do not sell short by asking for too little, no we don't need a full set of crystals, but if you wanted to lug around 2 full sets, why not? Some people only bother with 1-2 sets, some take out 3-5 sets, and some people take as much as possible without interfering with the amount room needed for mining cycles. Everyone has a different mining style, why is your choice the one for everyone? Also, think of the wonderful kill mails if a hulk gets ganked with a few hundred cyrstals sitting in it. It is true that everyone has a different mining style - however, CCP already has stated the cargoholds are being "nerfed" to avoid these specialized ships being used as haulers.
Due to that, it's necessary to think what is necessary and what isn't. It is necessary to carry "X" amount of crystals & spares for "Y" types of Ore. It is not necessary to carry crystals for all 15 (Mercoxit excluded) ores plus spares - even if we'd like to.
Yes, the killmails would be interesting, but unless you create a crystal hold (similiar to the fuel bays on caps), you won't get it. What I'm shooting for is something reasonable that can be done without being overly harsh or overly generous - trying to run it down the middle / upper middle road. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
81
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Posted - 2012.07.27 20:24:00 -
[246] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:Infinite Force wrote:Vern Aldin wrote:If the argument for not being able to carry a full set of crystals in the Hulk is that it is meant to be the fleet mining ship then why do the Mackinaw and Skiff also have a 350m3 cargo bay?
All of the mining ships should be able to carry a full set of crystals at a minimum. I do not mind having a tiny cargo bay but if that is the case further reduce the m3 of mining crystals appropriately. Dave pointed out half of the issue. The other half is that you do NOT need to carry a full set of crystals (e.g. for every ore type). You only need to carry a subset + spares (3 ores + 1 spare for Barges & 5 ores + 2 spares for Exhumers -- is what I'm pusing for). I think the option to be able to carry a full set of crystals is valid. Do not sell short by asking for too little, no we don't need a full set of crystals, but if you wanted to lug around 2 full sets, why not? Some people only bother with 1-2 sets, some take out 3-5 sets, and some people take as much as possible without interfering with the amount room needed for mining cycles. Everyone has a different mining style, why is your choice the one for everyone? Also, think of the wonderful kill mails if a hulk gets ganked with a few hundred cyrstals sitting in it. It is true that everyone has a different mining style - however, CCP already has stated the cargoholds are being "nerfed" to avoid these specialized ships being used as haulers. Due to that, it's necessary to think what is necessary and what isn't. It is necessary to carry "X" amount of crystals & spares for "Y" types of Ore. It is not necessary to carry crystals for all 15 (Mercoxit excluded) ores plus spares - even if we'd like to. Yes, the killmails would be interesting, but unless you create a crystal hold (similiar to the fuel bays on caps), you won't get it. What I'm shooting for is something reasonable that can be done without being overly harsh or overly generous - trying to run it down the middle / upper middle road.
I don't think a crystal needs to be any bigger than 0.1m3 and they could reduce the cargo hold to 10m3 if they were readlly worried about hulks being used as haulers.
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Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
294
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Posted - 2012.07.27 20:26:00 -
[247] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:I don't think a crystal needs to be any bigger than 0.1m3 and they could reduce the cargo hold to 10m3 if they were readlly worried about hulks being used as haulers.
then you have mining crystals being an absurdly op way of compressing nocxium. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
104
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Posted - 2012.07.27 20:26:00 -
[248] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:I don't think a crystal needs to be any bigger than 0.1m3 and they could reduce the cargo hold to 10m3 if they were readlly worried about hulks being used as haulers. Actually, you would be able to use mining crystals in mineral compression at that point. They would break things at that point.
Dave stark wrote:then you have mining crystals being an absurdly op way of compressing nocxium. Great minds think alike! lol HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Vern Aldin
Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Volition Cult
1
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Posted - 2012.07.27 20:36:00 -
[249] - Quote
For a null sec miner it is extremely valuable to be able to carry around a full set of crystals. When mining in a hidden belt nearly all types of ore are present. Therefore to clear the site all types of crystals are needed. I am not asking for an upgrade. I am simply looking to preserve the ability to mine without having to constantly micro manage crystals. As it is, switching out crystals in strips is annoying enough. Having to dock up in the middle of a mining op to change out crystals sets is just another irritation. This is a game. This is a change to a mechanic which makes the game less enjoyable. Beyond that it is a matter of personal style. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
294
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Posted - 2012.07.27 20:38:00 -
[250] - Quote
alternate solution; let us put crystals in our ore bay. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
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Pipa Porto
539
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Posted - 2012.07.27 20:43:00 -
[251] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:I don't think a crystal needs to be any bigger than 0.1m3 and they could reduce the cargo hold to 10m3 if they were readlly worried about hulks being used as haulers.
then you have mining crystals being an absurdly op way of compressing nocxium.
You could make them mostly "extra" materials, like Bombs. That would fix their compression ratio. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Ooda
Treasures Collectors Solar Citizens
17
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Posted - 2012.07.27 23:32:00 -
[252] - Quote
Can anyone explain to me why they had to nerf the hulk? Srsly, you can't mine more than ~6k per cycle, and you can't store more than one cycle either.
Previously, you had the chance to store crystals for a large cluster - with this changes you can't, and you can't make use of 1500m3 ore-space either. Any reason for this nerf?
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Zetaomega333
HIFI INDUSTRIAL ROL.Citizens
12
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Posted - 2012.07.27 23:32:00 -
[253] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Zetaomega333 wrote:Second this, Empire bears seem to be under the illusion that nullsec and wh miners will ONLY use the hulk when in a fleet, when in fact we use hulks to solo mine and will keep doing it. Why? The Mackinaw will probably yield more once you take dropoffs into account. 37k m3 vs 7500 (or Jetcans and switching ships)
IM still gona fly a hulk cus it has the highest yeild, Them saying that its better for fleet ops doesnt mean it only works there. Titans are supposed to be good as support and command ships but all you see if them blobbing. Nothing ccp intends actually happens. |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found
57
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Posted - 2012.07.27 23:34:00 -
[254] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:alternate solution; let us put crystals in our ore bay. Doesn't help unless you can use a can to manage them there.
A 350m3 cargo bay means that you can only use a small can to organise things, even with the reduced size of crystals that allows for only four crystals, spares on a retriever/Mack for two ore types. Which considering the ship is supposed to act without a hauler, solo, without support, simply isn't enough.
The cargoholds need to be increased or the crystal size needs to be drastically reduced... I suggested 5m3 before and I still think that's a good number. The hauler arguement seems foolish from my perspective - a Thorax is already a better hauler than these things. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
299
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Posted - 2012.07.27 23:42:00 -
[255] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:Dave stark wrote:alternate solution; let us put crystals in our ore bay. Doesn't help unless you can use a can to manage them there.
yes it does help, it gives you the 8k cargo space back in the hulk. it solves a problem by reverting it to the original state wherein the problem didn't exist.
you do not need a can to organise it at all. when you right click on the t2 strip miner it has an option to change the crystal to any other crystal and it even has options to load used crystals or unused crystals. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Pipa Porto
544
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Posted - 2012.07.27 23:43:00 -
[256] - Quote
Zetaomega333 wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Zetaomega333 wrote:Second this, Empire bears seem to be under the illusion that nullsec and wh miners will ONLY use the hulk when in a fleet, when in fact we use hulks to solo mine and will keep doing it. Why? The Mackinaw will probably yield more once you take dropoffs into account. 37k m3 vs 7500 (or Jetcans and switching ships) IM still gona fly a hulk cus it has the highest yeild, Them saying that its better for fleet ops doesnt mean it only works there. Titans are supposed to be good as support and command ships but all you see if them blobbing. Nothing ccp intends actually happens.
So you are going to take in less ore per hour because you want to see your hold fill faster?
The Mack is probably going to yield more Ore per hour if you take into account the time you take in warp with the Hulk or it's hauling ship. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1723
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Posted - 2012.07.27 23:46:00 -
[257] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:It is true that everyone has a different mining style - however, CCP already has stated the cargoholds are being "nerfed" to avoid these specialized ships being used as haulers.
I suppose that creating a "crystals only" hold was too much of a challenge for CCP? That would fix the hauler cross over.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
107
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Posted - 2012.07.27 23:49:00 -
[258] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Jacob Holland wrote:Dave stark wrote:alternate solution; let us put crystals in our ore bay. Doesn't help unless you can use a can to manage them there. yes it does help, it gives you the 8k cargo space back in the hulk. it solves a problem by reverting it to the original state wherein the problem didn't exist. you do not need a can to organise it at all. when you right click on the t2 strip miner it has an option to change the crystal to any other crystal and it even has options to load used crystals or unused crystals. Yes, but the reload-option has this nasty tendancy to take unused crystals when it has the option - even when you select "used" ... HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Pipa Porto
544
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Posted - 2012.07.28 00:01:00 -
[259] - Quote
Ark T1 Crystal is 30m3 Ark T2 Crystal is 50m3
New Cargo Hold is 350 for the Skiff and Mack (IIRC).
Skiff can hold 7 T2 Ark Crystals or 11 T1 Crystals.
That means the Skiff can hold up to 8 Ores worth of Crystals (it takes 1 Crystal to change) and 11 with T1.
The Mackinaw can hold 4 Ores worth with 1 spare, or 5 Ores with 1 spare T1.
Probably could use a small buff on the Mack Cargo bay, since it's got 2 Strips. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
887
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Posted - 2012.07.28 03:21:00 -
[260] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Yes, but the reload-option has this nasty tendancy to take unused crystals when it has the option - even when you select "used" ... I tend to drag-and-drop crystals. I find it takes me too long to navigate the context menu, and it is error prone (click on wrong option).
Of course I also remove (at 39/40 damage) and later reprocess crystals before they pop, to recover all the Noxcium.
I sure would like to see crystal size reduced though, and I think it is more likely to happen than cargoholds being enlarged. |
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MunnyRabbit
Fleetworks Soldiers Of New Eve
2
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Posted - 2012.07.28 04:53:00 -
[261] - Quote
So im not sure if i missed it or not but are the values i am reading base values with skills? For instance the mack has 31k ore bay for ore with perfect exhumer 5 and MB 5 skills?? Can this go up with cargo expanders or are they introducing specific cargo expanders for the ore bay?
With the small cargo bays i don't see why anyone would bother to use cargo rigs or cargo in low slots unless you would need to hold more crystals but seems like waste to me. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
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Posted - 2012.07.28 05:30:00 -
[262] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Zetaomega333 wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Zetaomega333 wrote:Second this, Empire bears seem to be under the illusion that nullsec and wh miners will ONLY use the hulk when in a fleet, when in fact we use hulks to solo mine and will keep doing it. Why? The Mackinaw will probably yield more once you take dropoffs into account. 37k m3 vs 7500 (or Jetcans and switching ships) IM still gona fly a hulk cus it has the highest yeild, Them saying that its better for fleet ops doesnt mean it only works there. Titans are supposed to be good as support and command ships but all you see if them blobbing. Nothing ccp intends actually happens. So you are going to take in less ore per hour because you want to see your hold fill faster? The Mack is probably going to yield more Ore per hour if you take into account the time you take in warp with the Hulk or it's hauling ship.
that depends on how long you're mining for, and what you're hauling in. the mackinaw only really comes out ahead if you're mining less than 2-3 jetcans worth in 1 sitting. so if you're mining for over an hour, you're probably better off with the hulk. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
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Posted - 2012.07.28 05:30:00 -
[263] - Quote
MunnyRabbit wrote:So im not sure if i missed it or not but are the values i am reading base values with skills? For instance the mack has 31k ore bay for ore with perfect exhumer 5 and MB 5 skills?? Can this go up with cargo expanders or are they introducing specific cargo expanders for the ore bay?
With the small cargo bays i don't see why anyone would bother to use cargo rigs or cargo in low slots unless you would need to hold more crystals but seems like waste to me.
the mack has 31k ore regardless of your skills. it's ore bay size is scaled with prerequisites which have to be at V in order to fly the ship.
no, there are no mods that increase ore bay size. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
108
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Posted - 2012.07.28 06:22:00 -
[264] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Infinite Force wrote:It is true that everyone has a different mining style - however, CCP already has stated the cargoholds are being "nerfed" to avoid these specialized ships being used as haulers.
I suppose that creating a "crystals only" hold was too much of a challenge for CCP? That would fix the hauler cross over. lol .. who knows. it certainly would have fixed several issues.. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 06:24:00 -
[265] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Infinite Force wrote:It is true that everyone has a different mining style - however, CCP already has stated the cargoholds are being "nerfed" to avoid these specialized ships being used as haulers.
I suppose that creating a "crystals only" hold was too much of a challenge for CCP? That would fix the hauler cross over. lol .. who knows. it certainly would have fixed several issues..
there's no need for such a thing, they just needed to correctly split the cargo bay of the hulk to begin with. it was just a case of changing 2 numbers on the hulk's stats [in fact, they could have done it by changing 1 number really]. instead they went and changed 4 numbers on 4 things and did a worse job of it than if they'd changed 2 numbers.
i fully expect to see more cargo adjustments on sisi today when it updates.
edit; for ccp's benefit the only number that needed changing was the cargo bay to 2150 m3. (if you really wanted your 8k total then the ore bay should have gone to 5850, which is fine as the theoretical max yield is ~5.6k) how much more effort did it take you to **** around with 4 things yesterday and NOT fix the problem than it would have took to do the above to 1 number on the hulk's stats? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
108
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Posted - 2012.07.28 06:30:00 -
[266] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Infinite Force wrote:Yes, but the reload-option has this nasty tendancy to take unused crystals when it has the option - even when you select "used" ... I tend to drag-and-drop crystals. I find it takes me too long to navigate the context menu, and it is error prone (click on wrong option). Of course I also remove (at 39/40 damage) and later reprocess crystals before they pop, to recover all the Noxcium. I sure would like to see crystal size reduced though, and I think it is more likely to happen than cargoholds being enlarged. I normally drag-n-drop as well - just because of the mis-click potentials. I don't think I've ever reprocessed my crystals - never really paid that close of attention to it .. lol HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1671
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Posted - 2012.07.28 08:29:00 -
[267] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:edit; for ccp's benefit the only number that needed changing was the cargo bay to 2150 m3.
The only change that was ever needed was 10PG to the Hulk, then adjusting the base fittings, EHP and cargo of the other ships to fall in line with the specialist tank/capacity/yield roles that CCP had decided on. I like the split roles idea, it's just the execution was sloppy (typical CCP tweak finely balanced things with a 500lb hammer approach). Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Pipa Porto
547
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Posted - 2012.07.28 08:31:00 -
[268] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:that depends on how long you're mining for, and what you're hauling in. the mackinaw only really comes out ahead if you're mining less than 2-3 jetcans worth in 1 sitting. so if you're mining for over an hour, you're probably better off with the hulk.
I wan't the Mack to have enough Ore bay that it comes out ahead any time you don't have a second account hauling. That's what it's role is. It should be great at that role, just like the Hulk and Skiff are great at theirs (though the Mack is also great at the Skiff's role, and the Skiff good at the Mack's atm).
Oh well, I guess the Mack's gonna be a HS boat (can flip proof). EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
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Posted - 2012.07.28 08:38:00 -
[269] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Dave stark wrote:that depends on how long you're mining for, and what you're hauling in. the mackinaw only really comes out ahead if you're mining less than 2-3 jetcans worth in 1 sitting. so if you're mining for over an hour, you're probably better off with the hulk. I wan't the Mack to have enough Ore bay that it comes out ahead any time you don't have a second account hauling. That's what it's role is. It should be great at that role, just like the Hulk and Skiff are great at theirs (though the Mack is also great at the Skiff's role, and the Skiff good at the Mack's atm). Oh well, I guess the Mack's gonna be a HS boat (can flip proof).
assuming you mean "coming out on top" means having more m3 of ore in the station at the end of the session.
and the mack does come out on top; if you're not mining for extended periods of time. however that means the mack has more yield tank and cargo than a hulk. which is basically what the hulk is doing now and they want to move away from it. an issue hasn't been solved, the ships have just swapped between who's the king and who's the peasant. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Pipa Porto
547
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Posted - 2012.07.28 08:53:00 -
[270] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Dave stark wrote:that depends on how long you're mining for, and what you're hauling in. the mackinaw only really comes out ahead if you're mining less than 2-3 jetcans worth in 1 sitting. so if you're mining for over an hour, you're probably better off with the hulk. I wan't the Mack to have enough Ore bay that it comes out ahead any time you don't have a second account hauling. That's what it's role is. It should be great at that role, just like the Hulk and Skiff are great at theirs (though the Mack is also great at the Skiff's role, and the Skiff good at the Mack's atm). Oh well, I guess the Mack's gonna be a HS boat (can flip proof). assuming you mean "coming out on top" means having more m3 of ore in the station at the end of the session. and the mack does come out on top; if you're not mining for extended periods of time. however that means the mack has more yield tank and cargo than a hulk. which is basically what the hulk is doing now and they want to move away from it. an issue hasn't been solved, the ships have just swapped between who's the king and who's the peasant.
The tank issue is separate. If the Mack had a tank similar to the current SISI dump Hulk (topping at ~22k), the Skiff would be king. If the Skiff's ore bay was then reduced to ~2 un-gang-bonused cycles, it would be a toss up.
The Hulk has the most Yield Measured by Roid->Cargo. Which is nice, but you need a Hauler. The Mack should have the most Yield when measured Solo, Roid -> Station.
Maybe getting the numbers right for the Ore hold would be too difficult, I don't know, but that's how I envision the yield-cargo balance between the Hulk and the Mack. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
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