I do hope ore goes directly into the ore bay when mined.

I do hope ore goes directly into the ore bay when mined.

Woah, retriever has 3 highs? I'm liking this change already.

That would be awesome. Don't get your hopes up!

ahh I misread, still though, the ore space is nice, means I won't need to train for a hauler :)

What are the stats on the ice and mercoxit rigs?

effective mining output: 3.54 strip miners
EHP: 106,993 [76 260 shield / 11982 armor / 18750 hull]
shield resists: 82.2 / 77.4 / 83.0 / 84.2
tank (passive recharge) 407 HP/s

And it'd still have a respectable cargo capacity, higher than most current hulks not afk spec'd. Yeah, if anyone's getting ganked after 1.2 by the 2 week alt on a catalyst with options like this out there, they are doing something seriously wrong. This thing could shrug off a nado gank.

have ice/mercox bonuses been removed from ships?

also i'll take back the bad things i said about the mackinaw, nearly 40k cargo space is nothing to be sniffed at. the cargo is large enough for it's niche to be worth while. in fact, i might even use one myself. especially since it has an extra low for an additional MLU if the cpu can support it to bring it even closer in line with the hulk.

overall good changes imo.

yes they have been removed - they've been moved to rigs

Lot of good changes there. Looks like I gotta do some work on IPH soon.

i was able to get the tanking attributes of the hulk modified - and here is the fit comparison for the following fit [which requires a CPU implant]

[Hulk, Highsec Gank proof]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Kernite Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Kernite Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Kernite Mining Crystal II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Mining Drone II x5
Hobgoblin II x5



EFT stats (current): 30,235 EHP (20034 shield / 2292 armor / 7909 structure), 107 dps shield tank [passive recharge],
Pyfa (test server tank): 42,638 [29814 shield / 5010 armor / 7812 structure), 99.382 dps shield tank [passive recharge]

Wow great... A hulk still can't mine more than 1 cycle ...

good, this was the one place ccp were going to fail (if anywhere) with these changes. glad to see they realised how op the mackinaw would be if the ice bonus remained.

How is someone testing the new stats on the test server when sisi changes aren't live that I can see.?

I really don;t want to see role bonus go completely away.. I think that would be fail.

i'm a software engineer and i took a look at pyfa and noticed they used a sqllite database to store the ship stats .. so i went an altered it and i've just been "pyfa warrioring". i don't know where Sarmatiko got his raw data dump.

I really don;t want to see role bonus go completely away.. I think that would be fail.

On an slightly unrelated note, rookie ships getting powergrids boosted to 20 MW means a cyno can be fitted without a MAPC

Wow great... A hulk still can't mine more than 1 cycle ...

That's the point. If you want to mine a lot before hauling, use a Mackinaw. It mines better than a cargo Hulk does.

i just don't see the point in having an ore bay bigger than 1 cycle if it's not going to be able to fit 2 cycles of ore. there's no reason the hulk shouldn't have an ore bay equal to the skiff's.

And it's good to see that CCP listened when we pointed out that leaving the bonuses on the ships would be a bad idea (did we ever agree on the terms of that bet?).

Going to be funny to see the merc miners setting off clouds since everyone stopped DCM at 2, since the skiff's bonus negated the cloud generation.

well at least now there's a reason to train it past II

Can't you just out range the clouds?

Can't you just out range the clouds?

yeah.. 5km.

Any information on skill requirement changes?

The ships now seem to be at the same level, just different roles so I would assume they would have similar skill requirements (as opposed to the starter, intermediate, advanced set up now).

devblog said mining barge I for all mining barges. don't think it said anything about exhumers, though.

devblog said mining barge I for all mining barges. don't think it said anything about exhumers, though.

• WILL THE EXHUMER SKILL ALSO BE AFFECTED BY THE "TIERICIDE" INITIATIVE? Yes, all Exhumers will now require this skill at level 1 instead of various levels.

Hope that clears some confusion.

I would like to put guns on these ships.

i just don't see the point in having an ore bay bigger than 1 cycle if it's not going to be able to fit 2 cycles of ore. there's no reason the hulk shouldn't have an ore bay equal to the skiff's.

Sounds like there are some plans (at least high level ones) to make mining more of a mini game. which I'm all for. People who pay attention make more isk.

Do you have a source on that?

Did anyone do some testing with ice mining? Wondering how hulk and mack compare without macks ice yield bonus

I did some math on the yields for a Hulk and 2 cycles without MLU2s and no fleet support will take almost 8k m3 space. So, after your first cycle, you make a little room in your ore hold by moving some to your cargo hold and fill up at the end of the second cycle. That seems to be the logic for 7500 m3 instead of 5500 m3.

The other two ships get about 11.74 and 5.47 cycles before their holds fill up without fleet and MLU support. (8 and 4 with)

Drox

mining in a hulk without fitting 2 mlus... doing it oh so wrong. worst justification ever for ******** cargo size.

Everyone is comparing tank in here .... but do you have some information on maxed yield fits/skills how do the ships do ?

How much is hulk better than other ships ?

I mean .... if i loose 10% of my mining yield, but i can store few cycles in my ships, i would probably switch from hulk to something else and just field more miners. Because you dont have to move the ore every 2 minutes, but every 15 minutes, and that is awesome.

Oh, and screw your minigames ... try to mine with 6-7 hulks and play some minigames with your ship :D

Ship - Strips * modifiers = effective # of strip mining modules

Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675
Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15
Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15

Covetor - 3 strips * 1.2 (barge V) = 3.6
Retriever - 2 strips * 1.5 (role bonus) = 3 strips
Procurer - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) = 3 strips


or % relative to a hulk

Mackinaw: 79.4%
Skiff: 79.4%

Covetor: 90.7%
Retriever: 75.6%
Procurer: 75.6%

hulk: 5
mack/skiff: 3.99

Everyone is comparing tank in here .... but do you have some information on maxed yield fits/skills how do the ships do ?

How much is hulk better than other ships ?

I mean .... if i loose 10% of my mining yield, but i can store few cycles in my ships, i would probably switch from hulk to something else and just field more miners. Because you dont have to move the ore every 2 minutes, but every 15 minutes, and that is awesome.

I'm not clear here. Does the Mack still have an ice bonus or not? At the moment I pull 2 blocks per laser, or 4 blocks per 196.97 seconds (with Orca boost and assuming a upgrades in low). Also, in the same vein, is the bonus on the skiff gone? Have we replaced these ore specific bonuses with rigs which can be fit on any barge/exhumer?

mining in a hulk without fitting 2 mlus... doing it oh so wrong. worst justification ever for ******** cargo size.

The Mack gets a base 50% bonus to mining now. (making 2 strips the equivalent of 3) Just like the retriever

One problem I see is can flippers will have a field day with solo miners in high sec. Using expanders you could get 17k m3 of cargo in a hulk. Now you have to be dumping ore into a jet can every cycle. Way to go ccp.

will it always have the 2x bonus on ice blocks mined in a cycle and the trick that if you stop your cycle at 51% you still get the 2 blocks? I don't get who's king of ice mining and which are the new rigs you're talking about.

mining in a hulk without fitting 2 mlus... doing it oh so wrong. worst justification ever for ******** cargo size.

I didn't say I liked it. And if you check the other thread, you'll see I'm arguing for 11k ore hold. I was just pointing out why it wasn't a 5500 m3 ore hold.

Drox

i appreciate they want to keep the cargo space to 8k, which is fine. however i'd like to see them move more space away from the ore bay back to regular cargo. keep the ore bay big enough for 1 fully maxed out cycle then the rest of the space for regular cargo because as another person pointed out; there isn't enough room for a full compliment of crystals, especially with 3 strips.

may i direct you to the mackinaw?

Yes I know. Just that the Hulk, being way more expensive, should be doing more and doing it better than any other mining vessel.

Ditto

As it is, you can have 10+3 crystals. So, you can have crystals for 3 ores with a spare each and one more extra or crystals for 4 ores and one spare (or singleton ore).

I wonder if they will remove my rigs for me, or if I'll have some extra room?

I've used cargo rigs to get my cargo space over two cycles worth of yield, but the lows are used for MLU2s.

BTW, does the Ore hold mean I can stash my mining barge in the SMB without emptying the ore out? I've managed to sneak extra PI stuff around by putting it in the PI bay of the Primae and carrying it around before.

Drox

Yes I know. Just that the Hulk, being way more expensive, should be doing more and doing it better than any other mining vessel.

Yes I know. Just that the Hulk, being way more expensive, should be doing more and doing it better than any other mining vessel.

Yes I know. Just that the Hulk, being way more expensive, should be doing more and doing it better than any other mining vessel.

One problem I see is can flippers will have a field day with solo miners in high sec. Using expanders you could get 17k m3 of cargo in a hulk. Now you have to be dumping ore into a jet can every cycle. Way to go ccp.

hulk bonuses are unchanged so (so it's mining yield is unchanged) so we can figure out all the mining rates relative to a hulk

these calculations are based on Exhumers V/Barge V char, for mining rock not ice - this is without MLUs


Ship - Strips * modifiers = effective # of strip mining modules

Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675
Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15
Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15

Covetor - 3 strips * 1.2 (barge V) = 3.6
Retriever - 2 strips * 1.5 (role bonus) = 3 strips
Procurer - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) = 3 strips


or % relative to a hulk

Mackinaw: 79.4%
Skiff: 79.4%

Covetor: 90.7%
Retriever: 75.6%
Procurer: 75.6%



note: there is now an ice mining and a mercoxit rig

see thread in the test server forum


note: more posts to come, i'm going to try to find ships with comparable stats (CPU/PG/HP) to post side-by-side

[edit]
note if you fit two MLU's to the exhumers you get the following effective strip miner factors

hulk: 5
mack/skiff: 3.99

and ice and mercoxit "role bonuses" have been moved to rigs [see second page of thread]

Two words: Insurance fraud will be back for a limited time!

Mining ship buffs -> more mining -> mineral prices fall. Ship insurance prices are updated periodically. In theory, if mineral prices drop significantly before the insurance prices update, we'll see a boom in insurance fraud.

Two words: Insurance fraud will be back for a limited time!

Mining ship buffs -> more mining -> mineral prices fall. Ship insurance prices are updated periodically. In theory, if mineral prices drop significantly before the insurance prices update, we'll see a boom in insurance fraud.

ship mining buffs -> people mining in ships with lower yield -> oh wait....

Yes I know. Just that the Hulk, being way more expensive, should be doing more and doing it better than any other mining vessel.

So instead of adressing the lack of reward or fun in mining, CCP rewards AFK-ers and botters by making them safer against gankers.

Good move.

Your regular miner, that poor **** who was paying attention, who had friends with him, who knew what the hell he was doing, will be left untouched by these changes. His hulk's yield will remain the same, and even going into big scary low/nullsec wont improve his condition much. In the current (and, apparently, future) state, he's still a poor **** who play a role so un-challenging that a bot can fill it, and be just as efficient as he is.

Mining dont need a 100k EHP mining barge, nor a barge able to mine 30 minutes without requiring a single click, mining need a ship, or a mechanism, that makes a human better than a script.

Your regular miner, that poor **** who was paying attention, who had friends with him, who knew what the hell he was doing, will be left untouched by these changes. His hulk's yield will remain the same, and even going into big scary low/nullsec wont improve his condition much. In the current (and, apparently, future) state, he's still a poor **** who play a role so un-challenging that a bot can fill it, and be just as efficient as he is.

hulk bonuses are unchanged so (so it's mining yield is unchanged) so we can figure out all the mining rates relative to a hulk

these calculations are based on Exhumers V/Barge V char, for mining rock not ice - this is without MLUs


Ship - Strips * modifiers = effective # of strip mining modules

Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675
Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15
Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15

Covetor - 3 strips * 1.2 (barge V) = 3.6
Retriever - 2 strips * 1.5 (role bonus) = 3 strips
Procurer - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) = 3 strips


or % relative to a hulk

Mackinaw: 79.4%
Skiff: 79.4%

Covetor: 90.7%
Retriever: 75.6%
Procurer: 75.6%



note: there is now an ice mining and a mercoxit rig

see thread in the test server forum


note: more posts to come, i'm going to try to find ships with comparable stats (CPU/PG/HP) to post side-by-side

[edit]
note if you fit two MLU's to the exhumers you get the following effective strip miner factors

hulk: 5
mack/skiff: 3.99

and ice and mercoxit "role bonuses" have been moved to rigs [see second page of thread]

Just that, the changes aren't live yet, and for all we know they'll be adjusting the cost of each ship the same way they're adjusting the training times.

AFK friendly buffs leads to more AFK miners, plus the lowered skill requirements. (Nevermind the added NPE content.)

I'm not saying that insurance fraud is guaranteed to happen, but I imagine that these changes are big enough that people will start dumping existing mineral stocks.

Really.. how exactly do you do that for a T2 exhumer whose cost is dictated by the -4ME BPC from invention .. dish out a few more BPO's to a select few in a raffle??

Really.. how exactly do you do that for a T2 exhumer whose cost is dictated by the -4ME BPC from invention .. dish out a few more BPO's to a select few in a raffle??

skill requirements for the mackinaw is still exhumers II, unchanged.
and you only get a 37500 ore bay at exhumers V.

I found the quote in another thread, but they are apparently planning on tiericiding the Exhumer skill, so all 3 become available at Exhumers I.

well that's not implimented on sisi yet.

Before we forget, part of what players now call GÇ£tiericideGÇ¥ is to look at skill requirements. We are not pleased with how they work specifically with this ship class, since the Hulk is currently only a few hours away from the Covetor in terms of skill training. That is why, after the change, all tech 1 mining barges will now only require the Mining Barge Skill at level 1.

We will most likely add the new ORE frigate skill at 4 as a Mining Barge nested prerequisite though

Well it took four seasons for the Cylons to implement their plan, so let's assume that sisi is a work in progress?

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72890

By changing what amounts of each moon goo get used. Pretty simple.

Adding a small number of BPOs won't significantly change the final price of any popular T2 item. Inventors dominate the market and set the prices. (Skiffs might be BPO dominated atm because they're not commonly used, but I couldn't say for sure without looking at numbers.)

There might be a few marginal cases where a few BPOs is all that's needed to push BPO production to the point where it can satisfy demand, but those aren't what I'd call popular items.

I was wondering if anyone knows wether mined ore (in lets say a hulk) will switch to your normal cargo hold if your ore hold is full, or when the ore hold is full(Which is rather small with a hulk) do you get the hold full message? thankyou

Mining dont need a 100k EHP mining barge, nor a barge able to mine 30 minutes without requiring a single click, mining need a ship, or a mechanism, that makes a human better than a script.

Cargo/Ore bay capacities
Hulk: 500/7500
Mackinaw: 350/25000 (+10% ore hold per mining barge skill level)
Skiff: 350 / 17500

Covetor: 500/7000
Retriver: 350/20000 (+10% ore hold per mining barge skill level)
Procurer: 350/15000

Anyone know how the Ice Mining skill will be applied now that the ice mining function is set by a rig? Will the Ice Mining skill apply tp the rig? How's this gonna work?

By that measure, Ratters and Mission runners have it even worse. A bot can do their role more efficiently than they can, not just as efficiently.

A bot could easily handle what a lot of people consider pvp too. Fleet fights, gate camps, and suicide ganking don't exactly take a pro gamer to accomplish.

If there are new rigs for mining, will there be some significant retraining needed to use them? If so, should players be getting a neural remap or something to help those who happen to have all their stats in completely the wrong area? Having previously trained everything they thought they needed in the mining industry then remapped for other things...

If there are new rigs for mining, will there be some significant retraining needed to use them? If so, should players be getting a neural remap or something to help those who happen to have all their stats in completely the wrong area? Having previously trained everything they thought they needed in the mining industry then remapped for other things...

So if I have a Hulk with 2 MLU II's and my alt flying Itty 5 with 38K cargo who is hauling, will that still give me more ore per hour than the lower exhumers?

i was able to get the tanking attributes of the hulk modified - and here is the fit comparison for the following fit [which requires a CPU implant]

[Hulk, Highsec Gank proof]

EFT stats (current): 30,235 EHP (20034 shield / 2292 armor / 7909 structure), 107 dps shield tank [passive recharge],
Pyfa (test server tank): 42,638 [29814 shield / 5010 armor / 7812 structure), 99.382 dps shield tank [passive recharge]

Some of the changes are good (Procurer/Skiff's HP, Retriever/Mackinaw's cargo hold, the mining yield buff for both ship lines and the mercoxit and Ice rigs). But the unilateral buff of mining barge and exhumers EHP is a terrible thing to do.

Not only is it devaluating the Skiff buff (why bother with it when a hulk can easily reach over 40k EHP?), but it is also making the life of afk-miners and bots much easier, all while not adressing the structural issues of the mining profession: boring, poor and lacking improvement.

What the game need is not brick-tanked barge able to survive to multiple suicide tornadoes. These always existed, they're battleships (and now, skiffs). a 25000m3 ore hold is an amusing gimmick, but ultimately reward peoples who play eve afk.

Your regular miner, that poor **** who was paying attention, who had friends with him, who knew what the hell he was doing, will be left untouched by these changes. His hulk's yield will remain the same, and even going into big scary low/nullsec wont improve his condition much. In the current (and, apparently, future) state, he's still a poor **** who play a role so un-challenging that a bot can fill it, and be just as efficient as he is.

Mining dont need a 100k EHP mining barge, nor a barge able to mine 30 minutes without requiring a single click, mining need a ship, or a mechanism, that makes a human better than a script.

The best post in whole topic. Pure truth!

Question to all those who curse AFK mining - Have you EVER tried to mine for couple hours not-AFK?

AND beeing so low income source, mining MUST be made AFK activity, because nobody will do it other way.

1. I would love to do mining without AFK, but it's too borring.
2. If you make it so I have to sit constantly like running missions - make adequate pay. Nobody wants to actively mine for 1/5th of mission runners pay.
3. High-sec is probably the only place AFK mining occurs, and not counting ice belts it's not that much of afk mining anyway - roids pops really fast...

P.S.
Why everybody in every game wants main resource gatherers nerfed to oblivion and DPS chars to get all the glory and money?
What if I LIKE crunching rocks, but can't because of absurdicly low pay rate?

So if I have a Hulk with 2 MLU II's and my alt flying Itty 5 with 38K cargo who is hauling, will that still give me more ore per hour than the lower exhumers?

Yes.

/Or/ you could have 2 alts, both in Retrievers/Macks for a higher yield (you'll lose a couple of cycles hauling every 10 cycles or so, but it should still turn out higher.)

If it weren't an AFK activity, fewer people would do it (maybe), prices would rise(maybe), and Income would rise to compensate.

The maybes are if the people currently doing it AFK quit in any significant numbers.

The Pay is now entirely driven by miners. Your wage is determined by the aggregate supply the miners produce and the aggregate demand of manufacturing. CCP can't do anything more to change miner's income (more yield would suppress prices, resulting in the same income but with more hauling to do).

And yet they did by removing gun mining from drones and removing meta 0 items from missions instantly reducing mineral ammount gained from shooting guns.
What need more is LP nerfing so LP farming would not give such huge rewards. Also nerfing BS bounty a bit... getting paid 1 million+ for 5-6 groups of missiles is too much...

CCP fixed the problems that were making that not so. There's nothing more they can do to significantly affect Mining Income.

Apart from, say, buffing mining ships to the point where you can have your max yield and a 30k EHP tank too.

Apart from, say, buffing mining ships to the point where you can have your max yield and a 30k EHP tank too.

Higher yield -> Lower mineral prices -> More hauling effort for the same amount of ISK.

Buffing mining ships like you suggest removes any element of decision making. Everybody else has to compromise something for something else when they fit their ships. Why should miners be special?

Exactly.



It's like you are reading my mind.

Exactly.



It's like you are reading my mind.

The best post in whole topic. Pure truth!

mining ships have 1 purpose. mining. combat ships do not, you have ewar, you have high alpha, you have tacklers etc. you're comparing apples to oranges.

Compare it to Ratting ships then. Ratting ships have one purpose. To kill red Crosses. They have to sacrifice DPS for Range/Tracking and Tank. The balance between the two is something that they have to figure out.

PVP boats have one purpose: To get the other guy dead. They have to sacrifice some things that make them effective at that in order to stay alive doing so.
One shining example. Falcons can be plated or not. Plated falcons survive better, unplated falcons do their job better. Falcons have only one purpose. To jam the enemy.

granted, i still don't see the issue with a 30k ehp mining ship with max yield though.

if we could kill a carrier in 30 seconds with a meta fit mael then there'd be tears galore on here. all ccp have done is stopped that happening on a smaller scale. destroyers vs exhumers.

if people want to cry about having to put in real effort to ganking an expensive t2 ship then i'll laugh at them as they laughed at miners. if we were getting 100k ehp skiffs mining more than hulks then yeah you'd have a point. however they don't.

edit; besides when picking between yield, tank, and cargo we have to pick entirely different ships which costs more than a few modules costs.

granted, i still don't see the issue with a 30k ehp mining ship with max yield though.

A Hulk can be tanked enough that it can't be profitably ganked.

Also I would like to point out, AFK mining capabilities of the Procurer and Retriever hulls will have far greater effect on ice mining since you don't have to switch targets very often while ice mining. I think AFK mining options will be more limited for ore mining.

That's what miners get for whining when they could have just learned to tank their Hulks.

A Carrier is a Logistics ship without maneuverability. Of course it's tanky. It has to be. It's designed for Combat. A Hulk isn't designed to be a brick, it's designed to mine in a convenient manner. You want a brick miner, the Rokh's your toy.

A Hulk can be tanked enough that it can't be profitably ganked. If the gankers bring outside help (GSF bounties) to change that, and the Hulk pilot brings outside help (Blap Nado, RR, ECM), the gankers still lose at making a profit.

Price is not a balancing factor the way miners seem to think it is.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11888211

This 100b ratting ship got killed by a gang worth not more than 4-5b Isk. And that gang didn't lose anything significant.

Price is not a balancing factor the way miners seem to think it is.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11888211

This 100b ratting ship got killed by a gang worth not more than 4-5b Isk. And that gang didn't lose anything significant.

One problem I see is can flippers will have a field day with solo miners in high sec. Using expanders you could get 17k m3 of cargo in a hulk. Now you have to be dumping ore into a jet can every cycle. Way to go ccp.

How does that compare to my current fit (requires EG-604 though EG-605 is cheaper as the former is from CONCORD, but not needed with t1 strips):

EFT stats (current): 32,576 EHP (22779 shield / 2265 armor / 7533 structure), 121 DPS shield tank [passive recharge]

[Hulk, EHP]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Internal Force Field Array I

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5
Mining Drone II x5


I haven't yet gotten any ship to mine as much or more than a Hulk on Sisi (built-in +30% yield), but it is more tedious to test when I have to buy and swap modules.

and is a loot pinata - even post-buff i would be temped to gank a hulk like that and i ******* mine (on an alt)

[quote=Darveses]Sorry if I missed it, but has anyone tried ASB fits yet?

no, but i will now!

with all due respect, any hulk fit without mlu IIs are pointless.

if you're sacrificing those to fit a tank on a hulk you may as well just mine in a mlu'd skiff, odds are you'll have both more ehp and yield.

you are correct.

Well, a Hulk has a bonus of 30% and a Skiff has a bonus of 5%. So you need to fit at least 3 MLU to match a Hulk, and the Skiff has 2 low slots (unless that was changed, as I don't see it on pastebin).

Mining Income is currently driven by Miners.

Not true.

Mining income is driven by demand, or would be in theory, if there weren't gigantic stockpiles all over the place. Mining income is a direct result of market pressures and it's mineral traders that are in control of pricing.

read what we were saying

dual MLU skiff vs non-MLU'ed hulk

I did. I even quoted it. Please explain assuming I'm clueless, as I apparently am.

No MLU Hulk: 30% bonus. Dual MLU Skiff: 23% bonus.

That's a 7% cost for durability and a larger ore hold. If the size of the hold is the issue, then of course Dave stark's comment should have mentioned that (i.e, when mining solo) , rather than being an apparent blanket statement.

But if I'm still missing something, please enlighten me. I'm trying to understand these "new" ships, just like everyone else.

I did. I even quoted it. Please explain assuming I'm clueless, as I apparently am.

No MLU Hulk: 30% bonus. Dual MLU Skiff: 23% bonus.

That's a 7% cost for durability and a larger ore hold. If the size of the hold is the issue, then of course Dave stark's comment should have mentioned that (i.e, when mining solo) , rather than being an apparent blanket statement.

But if I'm still missing something, please enlighten me. I'm trying to understand these "new" ships, just like everyone else.

Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675
Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15
Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15

0.8175/3.15 = 25.9..%
hulk is ^ much better than a skiff or mack before mlus etc.

where are you getting 30 and 23 from? perhaps we can clear up some confusion.

No MLU Hulk: 30% = 3% per level of Mining Barge + 3% per level of Exhumers
2x MLU Skiff: 23% = 1% per level of Exhumers + two 9% MLU

As far as I can see, all the ships have otherwise been normalized at 3 strips.

Mining Barge skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to shield hit points
7.5% bonus to all shield resistances

Exhumer skill bonus per level:
1% bonus to Strip Miner yield
1% reduction in Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonus:
200% bonus to Strip Miner yield
66.66% reduction in Ice Harvester Duration and capacitor use

there is your error.. you didn't read the changes to the ship

If only this were true.

that link doesn't work, so i can't really comment. if it's some moron in a faction fit tengu not paying attention to local in a 0.0 system then it's really not a valid argument since we're talking about empire space. in 0.0 a lone rifter can kill anything if some dumb bastard is just sitting there afk for long enough.

Yes I did. That is making a 1 strip Skiff into a 3 strip Skiff.

1 * (1 + 200%) = 3

As I stated, all the ships were normalized at 3 strips.

So that leaves the two 15% bonuses for the hulk and the 5% for the skiff as being the main differences, plus fitting two 9% mlu to the skiff. So I still don't see how a 2 MLU skiff is on-par or better than a no-mlu hulk.

Not trying to argue, just trying to understand.

Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675
Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 * 1.09^2 (two MLU II) = 3.742515

I don't think there is stacking penalty on MLU, but if there is, then the Skiff is even less.

Higher yield -> Lower mineral prices -> More hauling effort for the same amount of ISK.

Used to not be true of mining ships because the highest yield mining ship in the game was a Sentry Carrier, but since that's no longer true, mining income is controlled by the supply of mining vs the demands of ship building.

Buffing mining ships like you suggest removes any element of decision making. Everybody else has to compromise something for something else when they fit their ships. Why should miners be special?

There is also a finite limit. Only so many roids in all of eve every daily cycle before DT replaces them. Miners can only mine that much and no more per day. If ship building demand exceeded that supply then the dynamics all change.
This could happen if eve grew enough. I wonder what percentage of roids are mined out daily right now on eve?

There is also a finite limit. Only so many roids in all of eve every daily cycle before DT replaces them. Miners can only mine that much and no more per day. If ship building demand exceeded that supply then the dynamics all change.
This could happen if eve grew enough. I wonder what percentage of roids are mined out daily right now on eve?

so you're right - I was thinking of a 3x MLU mackinaw, not a skiff

Ah, good, so I'm not completely insane. Good to know. Thanks!

Thanks for all the math too!

Now I have to check some more Mackinaw fittings. Most of the fittings I tried were very tight, lower yield than a no-MLU Hulk (I posted my current fit previously), and not significantly more tank. I don't consider to have fully explored every possibility yet though (I don't have mining upgrades 4 yet *blush*).

And don't get me wrong, I think the improved Skiff is an awesome addition. I'd probably use them if I was still living in w-space.

I would therefore suggest:

Increase the PG on the Hulk and Mack by three megawatts, one for each additional slot they have over their T1 counterparts.

Reduce Mining crystal volume tenfold (to 5m3) to allow a reasonable number of ore types and the use of a can to manage the singletons.
or
Increase the cargobay to allow a large can as well as "active" sets of crystals.

I have no options for the icemining and Merc rigs...

can't find the new magic rigs in sisi. where are them?

as regards the cargo bay size..... I like it instead. I think it's made under the specific purpose of fixing the roles for each ship or in other words: no cargohold extenders/cargo rigs anymore which is an awesome news. If you want to solo/afk mine there's no way you can use a hulk now. There are specific barges with a huge ore bay for that and you can't use them for hauling either, which I guess is the second reason why they made a "ore bay" for barges instead of "just a bay"

also, I honestly can't see how you may say the crystal problem even exists. If you solo mine how long are you staying out there, 36 hrs without docking? I don't think so, so check your crystals before undocking and fly safe. If you're in a fleet, as you are supposed to be, the orca/hauler can keep all the crystals you want and give some to those who need them when necessary.

it's not the fact that you're reloading crystals, it's the fact that there's more than one ore in the belts so you need multiple sets of crystals. this situation is made even worse by the fact that you have 3 strips on the hulk.

sure, but 13 crystals are more than enough to stay out 2 hrs (just in case you want to jetcan before coming back in a indy and scoop your cans) or for any other kind of solo mining thing, being a "solo mining thing" something like "I go me myself and my barge around and mine the hell out of those roids" (different than "I solo with my 6 accounts with rorq and orca boost in -1 sec").

ideally i'd like to see 5750 ore / 2250 cargo.
increasing the cargo bay to accommodate a GSC would reduce the ore bay to a size insufficient to hold a full cycle of ore.

also, I honestly can't see how you may say the crystal problem even exists. If you solo mine how long are you staying out there, 36 hrs without docking? I don't think so, so check your crystals before undocking and fly safe. If you're in a fleet, as you are supposed to be, the orca/hauler can keep all the crystals you want and give some to those who need them when necessary.

But it is not all truth. Mining did need a ship that could effectively haul for itself and it did need a ship with a solid tank. Now that we will be getting those they can work to fix the second problem of mining being a super boring activity.

Yes, mining needed a sturdy ship, and a ship with a large cargo. But that's not really what is happening there. We're getting, really, 3 sturdy ships (two on the level of a battlecruiser, one on the level of battleships -with the size and speed of a cruiser-), and 2 ships with a large cargo bay (17500 for the skiff, 37500 for the mackinaw). And both these ships actually reach about, apparently, 80% of the yield of a hulk.

As I said before, and I cant emphasize that enough, it means that the miner who was careful enough to not get ganked, who used orca support to drop his mineral, wont gain anything from this update. The players who were doing good wont see their situation improve, but instead the value of their yield diminush, as "bad" miners get a safer and easier life and flood the market.