My views are my own. Miners can speak for themselves if they are so inclined. Fools would take one opinion and try to extrapolate it to a population.

I'm not going to argue the de-merrits of bots. Why not? From a price perspective, I fully support the proliferation of minerals on the market by any and all means necessary. From a profit perspective, I object wholeheartedly to my previous statement. Then again, I'm a profiteering ho. So I will support both the reduction of costs of goods and the maximization of profit in the same breath.

Therefore I think you need to differentiate between your compulsion to remove the bot from mining that will in itself, to some extent, balance out your value = demand / supply equation by basing the equation on true player capacity instead of automated capacity with actual people supplimenting...... from your compulsion to ruin the mining game in the hope that the perceived solutions of a predominantly pro-ganking clique will make everyone happy.

If your entire justification for this whole debate is that bots devalue mining... then clearly adding risks will not solve the problem (As it didn't in the past when risk was abundant... in fact, I recall botting at its worst when you had soo much risk to play with in hi-sec, that you could agress somebody and profit from the gank or even prevent concord from getting sum back just for getting looked at the wrong way or minding their own business).

How bots are removed from Eve without touching risk, is a different animal all together... one I think this topic doesn't cover at all.

All well and good. However, your arguments cannot be resolved logically or mathematically. Either you want low prices, or you want high prices.

Either you want successful miners to earn peanuts, or you want successful miners to earn reasonable income.

There really isn't a middle of the road here.

Also, I have it on good authority that bot authors hated Hulkageddon. Which is interesting, considering prices earned at market by successful miners during Hulkageddon were among the highest ever earned in Eve.

Thanks for your replies.

Either you want successful miners to earn peanuts, or you want successful miners to earn reasonable income.

I don't mine to sell those materials. I mine because it's faster way to get materials than reprocessing loot. Especially when I have to sort that loot first.

It's free because you mined it yourself right?

All well and good. However, your arguments cannot be resolved logically or mathematically. Either you want low prices, or you want high prices.

Either you want successful miners to earn peanuts, or you want successful miners to earn reasonable income.

There really isn't a middle of the road here.

Also, I have it on good authority that bot authors hated Hulkageddon. Which is interesting, considering prices earned at market by successful miners during Hulkageddon were among the highest ever earned in Eve.

Thanks for your replies.

Remember loss of your ship or your life is not the only risk which exists. Failed investment is currently the most important risk in highsec, and it can be extended to any activity simply by giving that activity a (non-trivial) cost.

Can you prove "tanked Hulk can't be destroyed in hisec" is not true?

-Fix aggression in highsec so you cannot hide in an npc corp from aggression. Give people 1 year in an un-wardecable npc corp (the academy corps) then after that time should they decide to remain in an npc-corp, return from a player corp to an npc corp or somehow end up in an npc corp transfer them to their factions npc corp that is involved in FW. Npc corp protection would be returned for 1 year upon purchase of a new character because the fee and effort involved in buying/selling characters can be called a non-trivial cost.

That penalizes some more than others and only creates more alts with handoffs to still accomplish the same things they do today when unfriendly empire borders need be crossed.

That is one of the core problems of the game & things will only get worse if more people aren't encouraged out of highsec.

Saying it does not make it true.

How?

Revamp the difficulty of rats in high-sec belts. Seeing frigates in .5 and then battleships in .4 and lower is just silly. Have progressively harder rats the further down in high sec you go. Battleships & BCs in .5, BCs in .6, cruisers and BCs in .7, and so on. Good lootz, good salvage.

That might also make the anti-mining losers happier, too... but naw, that means they'll probably have to start fighting things that shoot back, easy as they are.

Let me know if you need help. That's the way I'll be riding out the game myself right up to the point they ban me for "griefing" or whatever other label they put on their no-longer favored features.

Amarr mission runner who never goes to Gallente space doesn't really care if they are placed in an FW corp as all they do is sit in Amarr HS anyways and still has access to Jita as the 2 factions are allies. This is especially true if it's a character that is KOS in opposing faction space anyways. As far as freighter pilots, it may be a bit more of a hassle. 3 pilots could easily do it though. 1 for each pair of empires with 1 handoff character in a 1 man corp. Not the simplest of solutions, but easily doable.

So newbies should only be in 1.0 systems then ??

Because with your advocted change to belts rats, they would get butt f***ed (without lube), and then most likely uninstall the game permanantly.

So many tears from the supposed tough guys.

Can you prove "tanked Hulk can't be profitably destroyed in hisec" is not true?

I fixed this, because the point has always been about profit.

Industrial scale ganking of poorly tanked barges is no longer viable as it requires far too much capital investment and provides only a loss in return. Can flipping is more or less gone now that miners dont drop cans and wardecs are so esily avoided theres not point to them. This leaves the NPCs which are so esily shrugged off they might as well not be there.

Yeah that's not penalizing some more than others anymore than people being too apathetic to vote for CSM penalizes them. It provides new players 1 year to figure out the game. It removes consequence free npc corps and gives players an incentive to explore different player corps or create their own. CCP has already shown and stated that players who get involved in player corps tend to enjoy EVE more than those who remain in npc corps so this is a win all around. The trade hub, I can agree with slightly; this could prompt minmatar/gallente to make their own jita and have two competing highsec trade hubs which would be a good thing.

In the examples there were some advantages present depending on how you view them.

1. Those who have no need to travel to opposing faction HS have no change
2. Those who have capable alts have minor changes

Genuinely new players wouldn't be negatively affected since they would have the grace period, but having corp chat with veterans has helped quite a few actually get to the point of wanting to get into a player corp rather than just quitting immediately.

The proposed doesn't seem to provide real incentive to leave but rather to turtle even further into a specific area of space.

I addressed both of those points. There is an entire help channel as well to provide exactly the same benefit those veterans will. It is much better at helping new players than npc corp chat.

Turtling I see as a benefit, it provides a hunting ground for FW pilots as faction police are not a threat to a decent fleet.

There is a very good incentive to leave the npc corp, lower taxes, better atmosphere, more safety, and more. If highsec players are anything, they are risk averse and that will propel them into player corporations. They might try to avoid the wardec via leaving the corporation but then they lose easy of access to some space and still might not be safe if the wardecing corp is part of the opposing FW. It provides more risk and as a consequence makes highsec player's decisions more meaningful as there is more at stake.

Why does access to a corp channel justify wardec immunity?
You can join channels independently of being part of a corp already.

The reasons you give for players to want to leave NPC corps already exist. That being the case if these are to be the fundamental motivators, why is any change needed and how would it be expected to be effective?