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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
599
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 08:09:00 -
[331] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:Also, you don't know what the players want, your are just saying that they want FiS because it suits your argument. We, the players, want WiS. And there are a lot of us who want it. I would wager a very large amount that more of us want it than wanted a FW upgrade, which a very small portion of the player-base uses.
See, the question isn't "do players want WiS?", the question is "do players want WiS more than FiS?". CCP is betting pretty firmly that the answer is "no" (hint: they're right). You simply cannot hold this conversation in a vacuum - whether CCP can fully realize WiS in any kind of acceptable form without compromising FiS has to be a prime consideration, and they've already said they cannot, so they 're not going forward as of now. |
Mars Theran
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
463
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 08:15:00 -
[332] - Quote
KrakizBad wrote:Arduemont wrote:You could get rid of the Incarna part and it wouldn't be missed much, Arduemont wrote:We, the players, want WiS. OK then. We, the players, have been pretty clear about what we want. It's not emoting at each other.
Tend to agree with that, though I have no issue with the ability to do so. Salutes: Fist to heart, crisp brow salute, etc.. but, as a function of something rather than a vanity emote. Sort of like how the pilot can sit in a chair by interacting with it.
Speaking of emotes, iirc Carbon doesn't have the ability to support them as it was designed and implemented in EVE. This is I think why WoD had to branch off of EVEs Carbon framework in another direction and I'm fine with that. WoD is a vanity game. Don't argue with that, it's Vampires.
Anyway, Carbon has the ability to do functional animations like sitting on the couch in CQ based on player interaction, but as I understand it, it doesn't have any support for text input translating to animations like common emotes in other MMOs. CCP never intended this for EVE, and they stated as much back when they were calling WiS Ambulation, or in early Incarna previews. Can't recall exactly when.
WiS was always intended to be an interactive environment, with games and activities for players in which their characters focused on interactive objects and avatar animations were directly associated with that interaction.
Personally, I hope that doesn't change. Let WoD keep their Carbon Framework model, and continue developing EVEs Carbon Framework as it was originally intended to be developed, with required additions and changes for the exploration missions that have been suggested.
That is the direction WiS should take, and as Ambulation turned to Incarna, turned to WiS, so should WiS as a perspective evolve into something else.
I mentioned I felt this way earlier; that WiS does not encompass any longer what the evolution of Ambulation and Incarna should be. It also leads many players to expect 'Emoting in Stations,' rather than projected or potential development, when they try to identify with the concept on a basic level.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub |
Mars Theran
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
463
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Posted - 2012.11.28 08:20:00 -
[333] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Arduemont wrote:Also, you don't know what the players want, your are just saying that they want FiS because it suits your argument. We, the players, want WiS. And there are a lot of us who want it. I would wager a very large amount that more of us want it than wanted a FW upgrade, which a very small portion of the player-base uses. See, the question isn't "do players want WiS?", the question is "do players want WiS more than FiS?". CCP is betting pretty firmly that the answer is "no" (hint: they're right). You simply cannot hold this conversation in a vacuum - whether CCP can fully realize WiS in any kind of acceptable form without compromising FiS has to be a prime consideration, and they've already said they cannot, so they 're not going forward as of now.
You're argument is flawed in that you are generalizing players sharing your own position with regard to an argument which clearly has 2 or more sides as represented by a small portion of the playerbase. You can't possibly argue effectively on that logic, when you are suggesting the people you are arguing with share your position with regard to the subject of the argument.
Only if they were lying, would that be possible.
On the other hand, CCP does do surveys and I'm sure this was included in them, and that some portion of the playerbase responded one way or another, so they probably have some information to base these decisions on. Of course, that can easily be outweighed by the threat of massive bad press like the Jita Statue Murder. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
599
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 08:34:00 -
[334] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:You're argument is flawed in that you are generalizing players sharing your own position with regard to an argument which clearly has 2 or more sides as represented by a small portion of the playerbase. You can't possibly argue effectively on that logic, when you are suggesting the people you are arguing with share your position with regard to the subject of the argument.
Only if they were lying, would that be possible.
I'm not arguing any point, I'm telling you what is literally happening with WiS right now. I'll link CCP Unifex's exact quote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2023395#post2023395
CCP Unifex wrote:The result of that planning highlighted that right now, we do not have the time or people to build this without impacting what we can deliver for our players who are flying in space. To create this will mean a considerable investment which will take time to put together and also a new focus for us just at a time when we as a company have another new game coming into the EVE Universe (yes DUST 514, IGÇÖm looking at you).
So, all that being said, we have a great concept to expand the EVE Universe but now is not the right time for us to take that step. ItGÇÖs a step I very much want to take but I want to take it when it wonGÇÖt mean removing developers and focus from flying in space.
That's about as straightforward as he can get without cartoons. You may think it's dishonest of me to frame the WiS argument in real terms (i.e. is it worth taking manpower away from other areas of the game?), but that's the reality of the situation, clearly outlined by CCP Unifex right there. They don't have the manpower to give WiS the attention it deserves without taking away from other areas, and that's not something they're willing to do. It doesn't exactly take a Nostradamus type to figure out WHY they're not willing to do that. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1823
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Posted - 2012.11.28 08:37:00 -
[335] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Did you happen to read anything about the design goals of Eve Online before you signed up? What about Eve Online's history? Can you think of another MMO with a history this rich? Probably not.
That history is courtesy of the original intended demographic, as evidenced by Eve's design philosophy. You mean the stories and rich history of scamming and ganking 'carebears'? Whether you accept it or not, you need them more than they need you. They won't miss being ganked, but you'll miss ganking them. Whether they accept it or not, carebears need the people you call "nutjob psychopaths." That's because Eve was designed to work that way.
If a person quits over losing at Eve, I won't miss their whining anymore than they'll miss getting ganked by me.
That seems pretty quid pro quo to me. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Evelyn Meiyi
Meiyi Family Holdings
57
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Posted - 2012.11.28 08:50:00 -
[336] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Just to answer a couple of points:
- Team Avatar doesn't exist anymore. As per the thread linked earlier our prototype has been shelved for the time being. Please read both my post and the one from CCP Unifex for the full picture on what's happening with WIS development at the moment. The team members are off working on a whole bunch of stuff from the launcher, through to new game features.
While it's a shame to hear this (Team Avatar were the 'unsung heroes' of EvE, in my opinion, for keeping the lights on and giving it a shot), I can certainly understand why the choice was made.
I've been working for about a month or so on a dungeon-crawler. While the game itself is functional and playable, I've had to learn the sometimes-painful truth that desire must give way to practicality, and most of the 'really cool' features I want to include have been put on a waiting list for lack of time.
Here's hoping that Team Avatar can come back strong and make their vision a reality. |
Nick Rich
Republic University Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 09:03:00 -
[337] - Quote
I'll try to write clear, with replays because I do not know very well English. I am not against space exploration and space crafts, and any improvements, I just want to support those who for Incarna, as pent up, so for a long time does not change. Discussions with developers is not as complete as we would like. Quite a lot of those created on Incarna, a lot of arguments and disputes, but almost nothing specific they are not, or is, but only distant blurry replica. Flying in space are made and completed long ago, recently issued only patches. The patch is not content. But look, what arguments and discussions are about the little things in space. We discuss everything loud intrusive. But, as regards space. If Incarna not come up if an Incarna no one ever said, if it were not promised .... But it came up with its promised long done, done, done so little that even insulting. The fact that there is now a beautiful quarter, very detailed, I have it turned on at all times. But that's it! It was written that the team Avatar is working WIS, then that does not work, because we need to focus on the space flight. But why? Why is not promised, but just decided to change the current practice? But do not do what needs to be done long ago? After all the players want! Long wanted and waited. And you CCP can not even imagine how it hurts to read about that development is suspended, or allowing increased. Since I'm not good at English but tried to read all the threads, I realized how people are fighting fiercely for what she still came out in all its glory!. Yes, there are those who are screaming that they do not need it. So what then? Will be guided by them? After walking around the stations, this niche is unoccupied, this feature is for you to CCP, there is no game more beautiful than Eve, but it lacks the Incarna. I love this game, and I hope that in the near future there will be at least some sort of information about it. I often repeat, excuse me, I would want that all was clear what I mean. Incarna should be, or not to strive for. |
Borascus
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
123
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Posted - 2012.11.28 09:33:00 -
[338] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote: That's about as straightforward as he can get without cartoons. You may think it's dishonest of me to frame the WiS argument in real terms (i.e. is it worth taking manpower away from other areas of the game?), but that's the reality of the situation, clearly outlined by CCP Unifex right there. They don't have the manpower to give WiS the attention it deserves without taking away from other areas, and that's not something they're willing to do. It doesn't exactly take a Nostradamus type to figure out WHY they're not willing to do that.
CCP's Current Recruitment Page
Looking through the list there doesn't seem to be much recruitment for WiS either, however the Studio Manager position in Newcastle UK does look like DUST's Engine is getting some new recruits. Studio Manager - Newcastle Job Spec
How cool does the Shanghai Senior Animator position look though? |
Revajin
15 Minute Outliers Novus Dominatum
48
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 09:39:00 -
[339] - Quote
Hi guys,
Do you think when WiS comes out there will be raids and gear grind? Because I like WoW for the raids but WoW is really gay so idk. I played Guild Wars 2 for a while but the Zhaitan fight was just lulzy bad. I hope they have raids in EVE: WIS. They could have them against a new alien race or something. |
Arduemont
Rotten Legion Ops
775
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 14:26:00 -
[340] - Quote
KrakizBad wrote: OK then. We, the players, have been pretty clear about what we want. It's not emoting at each other.
Agreed, we want WiS content. What exactly is your point?
Snow Axe wrote:See, the question isn't "do players want WiS?", the question is "do players want WiS more than FiS?". CCP is betting pretty firmly that the answer is "no" (hint: they're right). You simply cannot hold this conversation in a vacuum - whether CCP can fully realize WiS in any kind of acceptable form without compromising FiS has to be a prime consideration, and they've already said they cannot, so they 're not going forward as of now.
That question, "do players want WiS more than FiS?", is largely irrelevant. Because we already have FiS, so it's not an "either/or" choice. We can have both. As for compromising, they are already doing that at the expensive of taking Eve in the direction of new things. Rehashing old content is fine whilst it needs it, but they can't keep doing it without everyone getting bored.
Besides, if we ran a poll asking whether players wanted to put a small team to slowly work towards WiS content, or not. Your answer would probably yes, they probably do. Three devs working on it wont detract hugely from FiS anyway. Im not holding this debate in a vacuum. I am considering whether people want it or not, and I strongly believe they do. Check through all the WiS related threads and count the fors and againsts. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
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Koen L
Order Carebears Solar Citizens
17
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Posted - 2012.11.28 15:01:00 -
[341] - Quote
So no more dressing barbies and spin them inside a room with a door. Take out the code, not worth maintaining it. Play second life, if you liked it. GÖ½ When your ship gets blown to bits GÖ¬ GÖ½ And you lose your Faction fits GÖ¬ \Gÿ+/ Don't worry GÖ¬ GÖ½ GÖ¬ GÖ½ GÖ½ GÖ¬ GÖ½ GÖ¬ Be Happy \Gÿ+/ |
Davon Mandra'thin
Solar Horizon Directive Blue Nation
131
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 15:24:00 -
[342] - Quote
CCP Unifex wrote:we do not have the time or people to build this without impacting what we can deliver for our players who are flying in space.
Except they managed to make a pretty cool little prototype with only two devs. I would happily leave those two on it over the course of a year to see what they could do. Would that really impact on FiS that much? I doubt it. |
Djana Libra
The Black Ops Black Core Alliance
16
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Posted - 2012.11.28 15:40:00 -
[343] - Quote
Shepard Book wrote:Arduemont wrote:For those of you interested in WiS content, like myself, you will be disheartened to find out that it seems CCP have pulled the plug on using Carbon as the engine for the World of Darkness game.
Good catch and horrible news. I feel like you are failing us CCP leadership, and CSM until I see any kind of commitment towards WIS content. I really feel bad for the WOD team as well. This had to crush them.
Hmm ur a rare breed then, about the entire eve community clashed on CCP to stop working on WIS and get back to the core of the game, which they fortunatly did.
They just have to remove the room along with the door. |
Nick Rich
Republic University Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 15:57:00 -
[344] - Quote
If someone you do not like it, they can simply turn off the -íQ, and go on to admire the poor texture of the old docks. (see Gallente hangar). |
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone Caldari State
769
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 17:51:00 -
[345] - Quote
Koen L wrote:So no more dressing barbies and spin them inside a room with a door. Take out the code, not worth maintaining it. Play second life, if you liked it.
wow these barbie lovers keep showing up,man you have to stop playing with Dolls and admit that here
R.S.I2014
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Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
65
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 18:22:00 -
[346] - Quote
Second life - where real man can wear high heels and nobody cares. EVE online - same, but with spaceships. Inside mining barge, true story |
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
540
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 18:24:00 -
[347] - Quote
Second life sucks there is no spaceships. Now if I could have both my barbie dress up sexy time mode + spaceships Eve would be perfect This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.-á Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1180
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 18:37:00 -
[348] - Quote
I'm not sure what CCP is planning, but walking around in CQ is alot smoother on the test server than it is on TQ. They have done some improvements to the fps, a step needed before we get multi-avatar areas. I'm not sure why they would bother unless they were planning something. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Johnny Bloomington
Justified Chaos
44
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 19:32:00 -
[349] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:I'm not sure what CCP is planning, but walking around in CQ is alot smoother on the test server than it is on TQ. They have done some improvements to the fps, a step needed before we get multi-avatar areas. I'm not sure why they would bother unless they were planning something.
Its running smoother because its on the test server. Is that because the test is less busy?
For people that want CCP to start working on POS's, don't you want to walk around your POS? WiP could add gameplay related functions to POS. EVE Online |
Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
584
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 20:07:00 -
[350] - Quote
Johnny Bloomington wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:I'm not sure what CCP is planning, but walking around in CQ is alot smoother on the test server than it is on TQ. They have done some improvements to the fps, a step needed before we get multi-avatar areas. I'm not sure why they would bother unless they were planning something. Its running smoother because its on the test server. Is that because the test is less busy? The CQ interacts as much with the server as the hangar view, as in the server has no idea where in the CQ your avatar is. All it does is react to when you click on the 3D buttons (holographic ship for ship fitting window). Dominique Vasilkovsky Mashie Saldana Monica Foulkes |
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
524
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 20:10:00 -
[351] - Quote
How do you pull the plug on something that was dead on arrival? Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3718
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 20:59:00 -
[352] - Quote
Ghazu wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote: Don't know what your problem is and quite honestly, I don't really care. For some reason you seem hellbent on being antagonistic. Considering the fact that your character is only 2 years old and unknown to me, I see no reason for you to have this bitter attitude, let alone try to provoke rage especially since you're nowhere near being a vet.
If you continue trying to start some sort of forum flame war with me, I will use the report option.
DMC
Whatever you say, 4 year old npc alt.
Obviously you don't know me and didn't bother to check so I'll set the record straight for you.
THIS IS MY FIRST AND WILL ALWAYS BE MY MAIN CHARACTER.
If you need some proof, check my skills and standings.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:How do you pull the plug on something that was dead on arrival?
Actually, it just needed a lot of attention and TLC but due to the vocal minority, it got locked into a deep dark hole, er.... room, where it has slowly bled to death from all of the constant anti avatar attacks, much like this thread topic.
This is just another re-hash, everything has already been said and done a long time ago. It's nothing more than "Promises In The Dark"
DMC |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Drunk 'n' Disorderly
256
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Posted - 2012.11.28 21:01:00 -
[353] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:Isn't this now the second engine you've completely dropped? Am I the only person who is more than a little pissed off about this?
If they have completely stopped work on WiS, I for one and very happy. The current focus on the ships has caused me resub my alt, and cancel the unsub on my main.
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Some Rando
University of Caille Gallente Federation
133
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 21:02:00 -
[354] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:due to the vocal minority Actually a very scary amount of unsubs.
DMC Issler |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
602
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 21:12:00 -
[355] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:That question, "do players want WiS more than FiS?", is largely irrelevant. Because we already have FiS, so it's not an "either/or" choice. We can have both. As for compromising, they are already doing that at the expensive of taking Eve in the direction of new things. Rehashing old content is fine whilst it needs it, but they can't keep doing it without everyone getting bored.
And this angle completely ignores the resources issue. Of course both can exist side-by-side. However, they cannot develop both of them with their current resources without sacrificing quality, which given the Incarna debacle is not something they can afford to do at all.
Referring to CCP finally attempting to fix long neglected areas of the game as "rehashing" is rich, too.
Arduemont wrote:Besides, if we ran a poll asking whether players wanted to put a small team to slowly work towards WiS content, or not. Your answer would probably be yes, they probably do. Three devs working on it wont detract hugely from FiS anyway. Im not holding this debate in a vacuum. I am considering whether people want it or not, and I strongly believe they do. Check through all the WiS related threads and count the fors and againsts.
Oh great! Arduemont says it won't detract to take people away from FiS and have them work on WiS! CCP thinks it does, but screw them, what do they know? ~Arduemont~ has spoken! "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
815
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 21:23:00 -
[356] - Quote
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:wow these barbie lovers keep showing up,man you have to stop playing with Dolls and admit that here
Used to be fun mocking the guys with female characters who accused others of playing barbie, but i think they switch to their male alts now. "It's no use crying over spilt milk, because all the forces of the universe were bent on spilling it." ~William Maugham |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1182
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 21:30:00 -
[357] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:...... Seriously, you're still phrasing the question wrong. Given the current situation of CCP resources, in which CCP Unifex clearly laid out that WiS cannot be developed concurrently without sacrificing FiS to some degree (enough of one to make them decide to shelve WiS for the time being), the question HAS to be "would you support development of WiS at the expense of FiS?". Anything less than that is just dishonest polling. Honest polling would be "Part of every subscription is used to develop new features. What fraction of your portion do you want devoted to developing Avatar based features?". If you answer 0%, then none of your money goes to it. If you answer is more than zero, then that fraction goes to avatar related features. Let the people who want it pay for it, and everyone who does not want it will know none of their money went to develop it. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
5
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 21:31:00 -
[358] - Quote
I think I have actually done the WiS thing once just to see what it was, I then quickly changed the option to not load the WiS. If they pull it out of the client, I'm perfectly fine with that, I have no desire to run around EVE stations and bump in to people or watch as silly clowns do dances and emotes. If I wanted that I could just resurrect my WoW account. |
Arduemont
Rotten Legion Ops
781
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 21:34:00 -
[359] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote: Oh great! Arduemont says it won't detract to take people away from FiS and have them work on WiS! CCP thinks it does, but screw them, what do they know? ~Arduemont~ has spoken!
Seriously, you're still phrasing the question wrong. Given the current situation of CCP resources, in which CCP Unifex clearly laid out that WiS cannot be developed concurrently without sacrificing FiS to some degree (enough of one to make them decide to shelve WiS for the time being), the question HAS to be "would you support development of WiS at the expense of FiS?". Anything less than that is just dishonest polling.
Now your just trolling. I'm not declaring myself any more competent than you claim to be in this discussion.
As for CCP declaring they don't have the resources; they managed to build a prototype in less than six months between Inferno and Crucible. So CCP said, we don't have the resources to do the things we've already proved we do have the resources to do. And that team only had 2 people on it. Did that detract from the purely FiS expansions that you probably thought were only good because CCP didn't bother with WiS stuff?
Sure, it will have to detract from FiS development to "some degree", but that's like saying rain being in the clouds detracts from the total amount of water in the ocean to "some degree". Yea, it does... So what? Could you tell me how much it detracts? No? Well then, what was the point in saying it? Answer: None.
As for the phrasing of the question, you can phrase it how you like. People will still support it. Don't believe me? Open a thread and find out. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
816
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 21:36:00 -
[360] - Quote
Toku Jiang wrote:I think I have actually done the WiS thing once just to see what it was, I then quickly changed the option to not load the WiS. If they pull it out of the client, I'm perfectly fine with that
I think pretty much everyone has the CQ disabled at this point. It's not a valid representation of the kind of WiS this thread is about. Even those who support WiS would agree the CQ is pointless. "It's no use crying over spilt milk, because all the forces of the universe were bent on spilling it." ~William Maugham |
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