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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
332
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 06:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
All these "Nerf hisec" threads are just ludicrous, and All these "Null is broken" threads are enlightening.
If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left, mining in losec?....totally useless.
Living in Null sec? Practically every thread talking about Null sec speaks about how pointless it is to live there.
It is Null sec that needs to be Buffed somehow, cos if you nerf the daylights outta High sec, people will have little choice but to
leave, and we'll get the same lousy player numbers as during the last unending Hulkaggeddon before the Mining Barge Buff. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
ihcn
Life. Universe. Everything. Clockwork Pineapple
91
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 06:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
Your mistake is equating "nerf hisec" with "completely ruin hisec" when in reality nobody who's advocating the first thing wants the second thing. Sorry about your misinformed opinion. |
Some Rando
University of Caille Gallente Federation
365
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 06:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
332
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 06:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game.
As I said elsewhere , many people play EVE to relax, manufacture stuff, hang out with friends, not to have an FC yelling at them for allegedly making the team lose a PVP match. If forced to PVP, many would rather leave. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Rain6635
Team Evil
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 06:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
it should be that high sec missions are run just for the standings, so pilots can travel through unmolested on their way back to jita. no LP or ISK rewards and bonus.
AND standings degrade over time... so you have to return to repair standings with missions periodically.
like going to the DMV or filing taxes, something that everyone has to do. |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
332
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 06:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Rain6635 wrote:it should be that high sec missions are run just for the standings, so pilots can travel through unmolested on their way back to jita. no LP or ISK rewards and bonus.
AND standings degrade over time... so you have to return to repair standings with missions periodically.
like going to the DMV or filing taxes, something that everyone has to do.
I don't mind that cos missions give paultry isk rewards as is, but standings degrading over time would totally suck
Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Some Rando
University of Caille Gallente Federation
365
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 06:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:As I said elsewhere , many people play EVE to relax, manufacture stuff, hang out with friends, not to have an FC yelling at them for allegedly making the team lose a PVP match. If forced to PVP, many would rather leave. That's fine, live in high-sec if you think the rest of space is like that.
The problem is that high-sec is just too good compared to the rest of.K-space. It needs to be nerfed to bring it in line. After that, a buff to null industry and maybe some slight improvements in null and low individual income would help balance the game, IMO. |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
332
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 06:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Sure this has to be done carefully though, imprudently nerf hisec mining for example, and inflation will skyrocket, and people will whine about plex prices going to a Billion possibly. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Some Rando
University of Caille Gallente Federation
365
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 06:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Sure this has to be done carefully though, imprudently nerf hisec mining for example, and inflation will skyrocket, and people will whine about plex prices going to a Billion possibly. I think this "ring-mining" will help rebalance mining and the POS rework will help with industry (and hopefully reduce the allowed size of POSes in high-sec), but station services in high-sec also need a serious looking-into; they're simply too good for how many there are in near-safety. L4s also need to be looked into, as well as incursions; IMO they should both be removed from high-sec but whatever. Then exploration, L3s, and mining should be balanced to provide roughly the same "grind" income.
No matter what I think, though, at the end of the day CCP will be making the decisions. All the players can do is quibble and troll over what they think is best. |
Torakenat
Space Cowboys United The Irukandji
9
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
You can't force someone to play the way you want to play.
However, you can entice players to play like you.
I don't understand how you feel nerfing or putting restrictions or penalties on anything, that only spins a negative action to a player, in hopes to gain a positive response.
I can guarantee you this won't happen.
However, if you buff null sec and implement more content to give players more of a reason to leave hi sec you might have a better chance in getting a higher population in null.
Now if you want to sit behind your monitor and troll and act like an asshat then you can just as well HTFU
I would rather read and entertain posts being constructive and devise a positive solution.
Why don't we have a persistent ongoing arena system. Where you can queue up in your pos or npc dock? Like an 8 pilot/16 pilot random setup? Or a pre-made fleet 8 pilot/16pilot arena teams?
Why don't we have generic mission givers in pos's in null?
Is it possible to give certain systems a buff for say mining yield. While mining in this system you get X amount percentage increase in yield?
Can we make null a little more new player friendly? Hell my corp/alliance is a null sec corp/alliance and if it wasn't for them holding my hand I would happily stay in hi sec.
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Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
332
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Sure this has to be done carefully though, imprudently nerf hisec mining for example, and inflation will skyrocket, and people will whine about plex prices going to a Billion possibly. I think this "ring-mining" will help rebalance mining and the POS rework will help with industry (and hopefully reduce the allowed size of POSes in high-sec), but station services in high-sec also need a serious looking-into; they're simply too good for how many there are in near-safety. L4s also need to be looked into, as well as incursions; IMO they should both be removed from high-sec but whatever. Then exploration, L3s, and mining should be balanced to provide roughly the same "grind" income. No matter what I think, though, at the end of the day CCP will be making the decisions. All the players can do is quibble and troll over what they think is best.
Nevertheless CCP will be reading closely what we think, cos we pay their wages.
Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1055
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:[quote=Peter Raptor]Sure this has to be done carefully though, imprudently nerf hisec mining for example, and inflation will skyrocket, and people will whine about plex prices going to a Billion possibly. I think this "ring-mining" will help rebalance mining and the POS rework will help with industry (and hopefully reduce the allowed size of POSes in high-sec), but station services in high-sec also need a serious looking-into; they're simply too good for how many there are in near-safety. /quote] Personally I hope they don't put size restrictions on POSs any where, player owned should be better than NPC anywhere and there is no real need to butcher hi-sec to make other areas seem better, however player owned should look better than NPC supplied. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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ihcn
Life. Universe. Everything. Clockwork Pineapple
91
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:11:00 -
[13] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. As I said elsewhere , many people play EVE to relax, manufacture stuff, hang out with friends, not to have an FC yelling at them for allegedly making the team lose a PVP match. If forced to PVP, many would rather leave. wow you jumped to the "i am threatening to leave" post this quickly?
can i have your stuff |
Some Rando
University of Caille Gallente Federation
365
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Personally I hope they don't put size restrictions on POSs any where, player owned should be better than NPC anywhere and there is no real need to butcher hi-sec to make other areas seem better, however player owned should look better than NPC supplied. The only problem with that is you cannot bring certain capital ships into high-sec which make structure-grinding pretty painful. Otherwise I agree with you. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
Rain6635 wrote:it should be that high sec missions are run just for the standings, so pilots can travel through unmolested on their way back to jita. no LP or ISK rewards and bonus.
AND standings degrade over time... so you have to return to repair standings with missions periodically.
like going to the DMV or filing taxes, something that everyone has to do.
Fail.
Not everyone lives in null or lowsec or even has enough time to earn money in other ways than missioning. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |
Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
200
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
This thread sucks. |
RAGE QU1T
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
72
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. As I said elsewhere , many people play EVE to relax, manufacture stuff, hang out with friends, not to have an FC yelling at them for allegedly making the team lose a PVP match. If forced to PVP, many would rather leave.
Confirming, no one likes EMO raging FC's spamming alliance crying for more Logi's, furthermore people are tired of CTA online |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:24:00 -
[18] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:This thread sucks.
Well, happy christmas and a happy new year. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
332
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:This thread sucks.
Youre a Pirate right? Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
354
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
RAGE QU1T wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. As I said elsewhere , many people play EVE to relax, manufacture stuff, hang out with friends, not to have an FC yelling at them for allegedly making the team lose a PVP match. If forced to PVP, many would rather leave. Confirming, no one likes EMO raging FC's spamming alliance crying for more Logi's, furthermore people are tired of CTA online
So don't join an alliance that demands you to play on their terms? |
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Kamden Line
Deadly Shadow Clan Executive Outcomes
45
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:34:00 -
[21] - Quote
I love how People have departed from an attitude of 'HTFU' to 'Ultima Online was the best game ever'.
PVP action keeps a game healthy. Spending hours kills rats to get better gear to kill more rats is frankly boring as ****. If that's really the way high sec players want to see the game, World of Warcraft is thatta way -->.
Ultimately, there needs to be a rebalance - high sec needs to be worth less, but the NAP fests of the current nulsec politics also need to stop happening. I should know, I happen to be in the middle of one.
CCP recongizes this and understand the need for a rebalance and various other fixes, and so does the CSM. But considering the comments of the current CSM (the last CSM minutes reminded me of a session of the American House of Reps.), I'm very concerned with execution. I'm hoping that whatever nerf or buff that is put in place isn't utterly nutso like Faction Warfare was/is (orbit to make 200 mil/hour).
Also, the trend of discouraging high sec ganking and 'PVP' is disheartening. If CCP has truly abadoned the ways of the HTFU, then this game is finished and no amount of General discussion threadnaughts will change that. The tendency for this game to eliminate the stupid and elevate the smart is what sets it apart from other MMOs - if CCP eliminates that, then other upcoming MMOs like Star Citizen will quickly eat EVE-Os market share and set in motion the inevitable death slide of player population.
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5854
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:37:00 -
[22] - Quote
Rain6635 wrote:it should be that high sec missions are run just for the standings, so pilots can travel through unmolested on their way back to jita. no LP or ISK rewards and bonus.
AND standings degrade over time... so you have to return to repair standings with missions periodically.
like going to the DMV or filing taxes, something that everyone has to do.
uh, what
people run missions for ISK and LP, not for standings ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. An idea for improving corp management |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5663
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Sure this has to be done carefully though, imprudently nerf hisec mining for example, and inflation will skyrocket, and people will whine about plex prices going to a Billion possibly.
That's not what would happen. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Torakenat
Space Cowboys United The Irukandji
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Andski wrote: uh, what
people run missions for ISK and LP, not for standings
Well, in order to get to lvl 3, 4, etc you have to get the standing to run for decent isk/lp. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2216
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 07:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote: It is Null sec that needs to be Buffed somehow, cos if you nerf the daylights outta High sec, people will have little choice but to
leave, and we'll get the same lousy player numbers as during the last unending Hulkaggeddon before the Mining Barge Buff.
The problem is that many aspects of highsec are offered in near infinite amount and without cost. Adjusting aspects of nullsec to be more appealing then things that are free, extremely convenient and wholly without risk would be far more game breaking then merely downgrading specific highsec services. If there was a way to achieve this without touching highsec I would be entirely for it since it would create much less fuss. |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1680
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 08:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
Torakenat wrote:You can't force someone to play the way you want to play.
However, you can entice players to play like you. Hard to do when null isn't that enticing to begin with.
Torakenat wrote:However, if you buff null sec and implement more content to give players more of a reason to leave hi sec you might have a better chance in getting a higher population in null. When highsec has perfect manufacturing and refining (for those with appropriate skills and standings of course) there's no buff you can do in nullsec that will make it enticing enough to leave highsec without completely breaking the game. Highsec needs a nerf for this to be possible.
Torakenat wrote:Why don't we have a persistent ongoing arena system. Where you can queue up in your pos or npc dock? Like an 8 pilot/16 pilot random setup? Or a pre-made fleet 8 pilot/16pilot arena teams? Because it's a dumb idea?
Torakenat wrote:Why don't we have generic mission givers in pos's in null? Yeah, mission agents, that's what we need!
Torakenat wrote:Can we make null a little more new player friendly? Hell my corp/alliance is a null sec corp/alliance and if it wasn't for them holding my hand I would happily stay in hi sec. The only reason null isn't new player friendly is because there's no CONCORD here and there are these things called bubbles and cynos, both of which mean you need to have a bit better understanding of game mechanics in order to survive and make a living. -áObjects in mirror aren't as red as they appear. |
Mars Theran
Pod Kings
1393
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 08:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
Rain6635 wrote:it should be that high sec missions are run just for the standings, so pilots can travel through unmolested on their way back to jita. no LP or ISK rewards and bonus.
AND standings degrade over time... so you have to return to repair standings with missions periodically.
like going to the DMV or filing taxes, something that everyone has to do.
That would be frickin awful; it's a good thing you're not a Dev here. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
1764
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 08:20:00 -
[28] - Quote
Torakenat wrote:However, if you buff null sec and implement more content to give players more of a reason to leave hi sec you might have a better chance in getting a higher population in null.
Why don't we have a persistent ongoing arena system. Where you can queue up in your pos or npc dock? Like an 8 pilot/16 pilot random setup? Or a pre-made fleet 8 pilot/16pilot arena teams?
Why don't we have generic mission givers in pos's in null?
Is it possible to give certain systems a buff for say mining yield. While mining in this system you get X amount percentage increase in yield?
1. As many has said before on various different threads, you can't buff nullsec without prior nerf to hisec. 2. Eve is a sandbox, an open world MMO where almost every aspect/activity you do, be it pvp or pve can and should allow people to go in and crash your party. Arena is an exclusive closed instance, it doesn't fit in a sandbox concept and it never will. 3. No. 4. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ore_Prospecting_Array_5 How to : Playing Eve 100% Risk and Conflict FREE! |
raskonalkov
Tie Fighters Inc
44
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 08:32:00 -
[29] - Quote
^ You can just overly buff null sec, without nerfing hi sec first.
Of course that will probably act as a nerf to hi sec. But there would be no initial nerf first.
Also if this game is a sandbox, why nerf hi sec, or buff null then? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2223
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 08:37:00 -
[30] - Quote
raskonalkov wrote:^ You can just overly buff null sec, without nerfing hi sec first.
Of course that will probably act as a nerf to hi sec. But there would be no initial nerf first.
Also if this game is a sandbox, why nerf hi sec, or buff null then? Yeah, it's a sandbox, stupidly imbalanced titans were fine, sheesh. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2223
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 08:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Torakenat wrote:Can we make null a little more new player friendly? Hell my corp/alliance is a null sec corp/alliance and if it wasn't for them holding my hand I would happily stay in hi sec. The only reason null isn't new player friendly is because there's no CONCORD here and there are these things called bubbles and cynos, both of which mean you need to have a bit better understanding of game mechanics in order to survive and make a living. Well yeah, newbies are so cute though. Like when they get bubbles in the intro op, it's like "why can't I warp anymore". Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
64
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 08:41:00 -
[32] - Quote
Keep on beating the dead horse. Nerfing high-sec will only result in lower player numbers for EVE. It won't bring more players to Null, period.
People who don't want to PvP will rather leave the game than be forced to PvP.
However, buffing Null and giving (a lot) more toys in that particular sandbox would be a good start to make Null more interesting. Hell, maybe it would get interesting enough that 90% of the corps living there wouldn't gank everyone and anyone entering null just for the momentarily break from boredom.
Currently, null is the gankfest hell-hole it is just because most of the players living there have nothing better to do to pass their time.
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Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
64
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 08:51:00 -
[33] - Quote
Kamden Line wrote:I love how People have departed from an attitude of 'HTFU' to 'Ultima Online was the best game ever'.
PVP action keeps a game healthy. Spending hours kills rats to get better gear to kill more rats is frankly boring as ****. If that's really the way high sec players want to see the game, World of Warcraft is thatta way -->.
That's a great attitude there. Ultima Online's greatest strength was that there were so many different paths you could take. Many of them completely doable with zero PvP experience.
You would be surprised how many people enjoy grinding missions, even if you find it mind numbingly boring. If all of them would leave EVE for WoW, you would be PvPing the same three other players still remaining quite soon.
CCP will need to start adding meaningful content in their game soon. Tweaks and fixes are only going to keep people playing a while. And by content I mean sandbox content. Tools for the players to create their own content.
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James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1680
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 08:55:00 -
[34] - Quote
Thomas Gore wrote:That's a great attitude there. Ultima Online's greatest strength was that there were so many different paths you could take. Many of them completely doable with zero PvP experience. Which is exactly what EVE should NOT be. Reading this makes me angry.
Thomas Gore wrote:CCP will need to start adding meaningful content in their game soon. Tweaks and fixes are only going to keep people playing a while. And by content I mean sandbox content. Tools for the players to create their own content.
"People enjoy doing missions" = missions are meaningful content, apparently. No. -áObjects in mirror aren't as red as they appear. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
561
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 08:56:00 -
[35] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:RAGE QU1T wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. As I said elsewhere , many people play EVE to relax, manufacture stuff, hang out with friends, not to have an FC yelling at them for allegedly making the team lose a PVP match. If forced to PVP, many would rather leave. Confirming, no one likes EMO raging FC's spamming alliance crying for more Logi's, furthermore people are tired of CTA online So don't join an alliance that demands you to play on their terms? and get blobbed by everyone and their dog, of live a clandestine life of trying to get something out of null and give up because hisec is easier.
thing is, every alliance, not only in null btw, demands you to play with their terms. difference is, some do it so well that you won't even notice.
let's be honest here. the reason why nullsec sucks is because there isn't enough good space for everybody. you put a 500-man alliance there, you either bend over or you get smashed by alliances 3-5 times your size.
so you need more people, more people means that you need more iskies to make them stay, and a whole region can't sustain 500 people at the same time. try to have 7 people ratting in a single nullsec, doing anoms and whatever and tell me how much isk per each person you get.
grunts look at hisec and see it easier there and they either go there or whine because it's "better". [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1680
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 08:57:00 -
[36] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:and get blobbed by everyone and their dog, of live a clandestine life of trying to get something out of null and give up because hisec is easier.
thing is, every alliance, not only in null btw, demands you to play with their terms. difference is, some do it so well that you won't even notice.
Been in every alliance, have you? -áObjects in mirror aren't as red as they appear. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2223
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:00:00 -
[37] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Grimpak wrote:and get blobbed by everyone and their dog, of live a clandestine life of trying to get something out of null and give up because hisec is easier.
thing is, every alliance, not only in null btw, demands you to play with their terms. difference is, some do it so well that you won't even notice.
Been in every alliance, have you? Yes, you didn't notice, clearly.
How can anyone argue against this: "I'm right, you just don't know it". Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
raskonalkov
Tie Fighters Inc
44
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:01:00 -
[38] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:raskonalkov wrote:^ You can just overly buff null sec, without nerfing hi sec first.
Of course that will probably act as a nerf to hi sec. But there would be no initial nerf first.
Also if this game is a sandbox, why nerf hi sec, or buff null then? Yeah, it's a sandbox, stupidly imbalanced titans were fine, sheesh.
I suppose by defining sandbox by not be able to crash parties. Overly imbalanced titans would hurt the sandbox, since they would be too hard to crash.
I would also say then, that titan blobs and any blob should be pretty much banned, since that makes the party hard to crash as well. Also characters with higher SP should be taken away since, that makes it harder to crash parties as well.
The sandbox might be a viable fun thing someday. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
561
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:01:00 -
[39] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Grimpak wrote:and get blobbed by everyone and their dog, of live a clandestine life of trying to get something out of null and give up because hisec is easier.
thing is, every alliance, not only in null btw, demands you to play with their terms. difference is, some do it so well that you won't even notice.
Been in every alliance, have you? I don't know. have I? I'm just a grunt. been playing this game for over 9 years and people keep complaining about the very same issue since 2003, but hey. I'm just a grunt. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
561
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:02:00 -
[40] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Yes, you didn't notice, clearly.
How can anyone argue against this: "I'm right, you just don't know it".
if I was right, I would say so.
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
|
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1681
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:07:00 -
[41] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Grimpak wrote:and get blobbed by everyone and their dog, of live a clandestine life of trying to get something out of null and give up because hisec is easier.
thing is, every alliance, not only in null btw, demands you to play with their terms. difference is, some do it so well that you won't even notice.
Been in every alliance, have you? I don't know. have I? I'm just a grunt. been playing this game for over 9 years and people keep complaining about the very same issue since 2003, but hey. I'm just a grunt. Well as you demonstrated here that doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. -áObjects in mirror aren't as red as they appear. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
561
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:08:00 -
[42] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Grimpak wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Grimpak wrote:and get blobbed by everyone and their dog, of live a clandestine life of trying to get something out of null and give up because hisec is easier.
thing is, every alliance, not only in null btw, demands you to play with their terms. difference is, some do it so well that you won't even notice.
Been in every alliance, have you? I don't know. have I? I'm just a grunt. been playing this game for over 9 years and people keep complaining about the very same issue since 2003, but hey. I'm just a grunt. Well as you demonstrated here that doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. of course I don't. I'm captain Obviously Contradicting Walking-pants! nice to meet you.
but I'll do you a favor.
here's how things evolved:
back in 2003 people in nullsec demanded infrastructure, saying hisec was better so CCP gave them conquerables. That wasn't enough, so it came Exodus and POS'es! Yay finally I can setup my starbase! But that still wasn't enough, so let's get tools to remove them! Tadaa! dreadnaughts! Dreadnaughts are too powerful! We want moar caps! Here have some carriers! oh and outposts too and the ability to claim sovereignty! But that's not enough, let's give you motherships and titans! and a superweapon too! But logistics are hard! Okay have some jumpgates!
then clusterfucks happened and CCP started nerfing these things down. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2224
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:09:00 -
[43] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Grimpak wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Grimpak wrote:and get blobbed by everyone and their dog, of live a clandestine life of trying to get something out of null and give up because hisec is easier.
thing is, every alliance, not only in null btw, demands you to play with their terms. difference is, some do it so well that you won't even notice.
Been in every alliance, have you? I don't know. have I? I'm just a grunt. been playing this game for over 9 years and people keep complaining about the very same issue since 2003, but hey. I'm just a grunt. Well as you demonstrated here that doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. He doesn't know what he's talking about, he won't even notice. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Alara IonStorm
3959
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:09:00 -
[44] - Quote
raskonalkov wrote: Also if this game is a sandbox, why nerf hi sec, or buff null then?
This is not the first I have seen this and it probably won't be the last time. Phrase like this have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." Nothing at all.
You can't remove Tiers EVE is a Sandbox, you can't make it easier and or harder to suicide gank EvE is a Sandbox, you can't add group based PvE EVE is a Sandbox, you can't have a mechanic or organize Y EVE is a Sandbox, you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox.
The word Sandbox has become a Dummy phrase in this game that people tack on to any position they hold like it has any meaning. The word has a meaning but at this rate 9 out of 10 players probably could not pick it out of a lineup.
It means non linear Gameplay. The phrase you just won EVE is a joke told when someone makes an impressive accomplishment because there is no real winning EVE. Your fleet decimates the enemy and takes out their Titans, do the credits role? No you did because of Epeen, because it was a challenge, because you wanted to defend your space, because you wanted to conquer theirs, because for the hell of it. Whatever the reason behind it you completed your goal, the game isn't over, you'll have to either maintain your goal or find a new one. There is no end to the game only accomplishments and failures.
That is the Sandbox, if you have beaten all the content of the game and won it isn't a Sandbox it is a linear game. It has nothing to do with the content unless beating that content beats the game, then you can say "if this game is a Sandbox why add X content."
Hopefully 8 out of 10 people now can know the definition of the game design they are so proud of. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2224
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:raskonalkov wrote: Also if this game is a sandbox, why nerf hi sec, or buff null then?
This is not the first I have seen this and it probably won't be the last time. Phrase like this have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." Nothing at all. But I like carrot. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
561
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:14:00 -
[46] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Grimpak wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Grimpak wrote:and get blobbed by everyone and their dog, of live a clandestine life of trying to get something out of null and give up because hisec is easier.
thing is, every alliance, not only in null btw, demands you to play with their terms. difference is, some do it so well that you won't even notice.
Been in every alliance, have you? I don't know. have I? I'm just a grunt. been playing this game for over 9 years and people keep complaining about the very same issue since 2003, but hey. I'm just a grunt. Well as you demonstrated here that doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. He doesn't know what he's talking about, he won't even notice. but yes, I don't know what I'm talking about. I never did! I'm Grimpak! all I hear is voices telling me what to do! [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1681
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:14:00 -
[47] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:raskonalkov wrote: Also if this game is a sandbox, why nerf hi sec, or buff null then?
This is not the first I have seen this and it probably won't be the last time. Phrase like this have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." Nothing at all. Heh. -áObjects in mirror aren't as red as they appear. |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1946
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:17:00 -
[48] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:It is Null sec that needs to be Buffed somehow, cos if you nerf the daylights outta High sec, people will have little choice but to leave, and we'll get the same lousy player numbers as during the last unending Hulkaggeddon before the Mining Barge Buff.
I can guarantee you that the proletariat will still undock their retrievers and mackinaws and suck the same belts dry everyday and be parked endlessly in front of those ice chunks. Mission runners will still run the same missions over and over and over. The markets will keep on turning and life will go on. . |
raskonalkov
Tie Fighters Inc
44
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:18:00 -
[49] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:raskonalkov wrote: Also if this game is a sandbox, why nerf hi sec, or buff null then?
This is not the first I have seen this and it probably won't be the last time. Phrase like this have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." Nothing at all. Heh. Totally paraphrasing that.
But you can not carrot.
If you don't like that, HTFU. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2224
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:19:00 -
[50] - Quote
No More Heroes wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:It is Null sec that needs to be Buffed somehow, cos if you nerf the daylights outta High sec, people will have little choice but to leave, and we'll get the same lousy player numbers as during the last unending Hulkaggeddon before the Mining Barge Buff. I can guarantee you that the proletariat will still undock their retrievers and mackinaws and suck the same belts dry everyday and be parked endlessly in front of those ice chunks. Mission runners will still run the same missions over and over and over. The markets will keep on turning and life will go on. Mackinaws, the endgame of EVE Online, as cold as the ice and as harsh as local chat. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
|
Luanda Heartbreaker
FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:19:00 -
[51] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Sure this has to be done carefully though, imprudently nerf hisec mining for example, and inflation will skyrocket, and people will whine about plex prices going to a Billion possibly. I think this "ring-mining" will help rebalance mining and the POS rework will help with industry (and hopefully reduce the allowed size of POSes in high-sec), but station services in high-sec also need a serious looking-into; they're simply too good for how many there are in near-safety. L4s also need to be looked into, as well as incursions; IMO they should both be removed from high-sec but whatever. Then exploration, L3s, and mining should be balanced to provide roughly the same "grind" income. No matter what I think, though, at the end of the day CCP will be making the decisions. All the players can do is quibble and troll over what they think is best.
u are a moron my dear friend. if highsec is so TOO GOOD, why you dont go there? pff. u just dont know what are ya talkin about... |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
561
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:21:00 -
[52] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Mackinaws, the endgame of EVE Online, as cold as the ice and as harsh as local chat. and feels good brah.
veldspar fumes make you go higher than spiked quafe. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
333
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:21:00 -
[53] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Grimpak wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Grimpak wrote:and get blobbed by everyone and their dog, of live a clandestine life of trying to get something out of null and give up because hisec is easier.
thing is, every alliance, not only in null btw, demands you to play with their terms. difference is, some do it so well that you won't even notice.
Been in every alliance, have you? I don't know. have I? I'm just a grunt. been playing this game for over 9 years and people keep complaining about the very same issue since 2003, but hey. I'm just a grunt. Well as you demonstrated here that doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. of course I don't. I'm captain Obviously Contradicting Walking-pants! nice to meet you. but I'll do you a favor. here's how things evolved: back in 2003 people in nullsec demanded infrastructure, saying hisec was better so CCP gave them conquerables. That wasn't enough, so it came Exodus and POS'es! Yay finally I can setup my starbase! But that still wasn't enough, so let's get tools to remove them! Tadaa! dreadnaughts! Dreadnaughts are too powerful! We want moar caps! Here have some carriers! oh and outposts too and the ability to claim sovereignty! But that's not enough, let's give you motherships and titans! and a superweapon too! But logistics are hard! Okay have some jumpgates! then clusterfucks happened and CCP started nerfing these things down.
Well thats amazing, I only been playing 3 years, and yet CCP HAS BEEN BUFFING NULL SEC FOR NINE WHOLE YEARS, AND NULL BEARS STILL NOT HAPPY till Hisec nerfed to the ground.
Actually, buff null sec all you want, just be very careful about nerfing hisec, thats all I'm saying, the prices atm are fairly stable, inflation is lurkning behind a poorly implemented hisec nerf.
Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1681
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:21:00 -
[54] - Quote
EVE isn't a sandbox yet. Buff exotic dancers to give lapdances. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
561
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:22:00 -
[55] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:EVE isn't a sandbox. Buff exotic dancers to give lapdances. now THAT is something I can get behind. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
raskonalkov
Tie Fighters Inc
44
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:23:00 -
[56] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:EVE isn't a sandbox. Buff exotic dancers to give lapdances.
Eve is a job, and those exotic dancers need to start working. |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1681
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:23:00 -
[57] - Quote
Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:u are a moron my dear friend. if highsec is so TOO GOOD, why you dont go there? pff. u just dont know what are ya talkin about... Did you miss where we said, in multiple threads, multiple times, that this has already happened for quite a few nullseccers? Many of them maintain highsec alts just so they can make isk or do industry there. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
65
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:30:00 -
[58] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Thomas Gore wrote:That's a great attitude there. Ultima Online's greatest strength was that there were so many different paths you could take. Many of them completely doable with zero PvP experience. Which is exactly what EVE should NOT be. Reading this makes me angry. Thomas Gore wrote:CCP will need to start adding meaningful content in their game soon. Tweaks and fixes are only going to keep people playing a while. And by content I mean sandbox content. Tools for the players to create their own content.
"People enjoy doing missions" = missions are meaningful content, apparently. No. If I want to force you to PVP, I will, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. This is a PVP game. The only thing you can do to prevent PVP in this game is not undock or buy anything on the market, ever.
You need to train up your reading comprehension skills and/or understand first how UO worked. It had very similar aggression methods and the world was likewise divided into "safe" zones and unsafe ones. Anyone could attack anyone, anywhere, but in safe zones "unlawful" aggression was punished with a quick death. Sound familiar? You could be a crafter and never leave the safe zones, but everything else carried a risk of being "ganked". However, my main point is UO was not just a PvP game. It was much more and it's exactly what EVE needs to be too, in order to survive.
Yes you can force me to "PvP" in Highsec and I agree that ability should never be taken away from you. In fact, I think highsec currently is a very safe place and there is no need to increase its safety, nor is there a reason to bring those safety methods to low or null sec. You just need to realize there is and needs to be more to EVE than just PvP. Darkfall is a game that also has similar aggression methods and safe and unsafe areas, but it lacks any meaningful PvE content and is basically just a big FFA Full Loot PvP arena. It's not doing well. In fact, the creators just redesigned the whole game and are relaunching it early next year, adding more safe areas and stuff to do for players who don't enjoy PvP all the time.
Finally, I don't know where you got '"People enjoy doing missions" = missions are meaningful content, apparently.'. That's not what I said at all. I said that meaningful content should be sandbox content. It could be anything from people being able to build secret bases in high sec deadspace pockets, to giving tools for null players to make their Empires more worth living in and more organized. In fact, I really don't want to see more ready-canned PvE content such as Incursions in EVE. They are exactly the wrong direction for a sandbox game.
Hope I cleared things up for you a bit.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2225
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:44:00 -
[59] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:u are a moron my dear friend. if highsec is so TOO GOOD, why you dont go there? pff. u just dont know what are ya talkin about... Did you miss where we said, in multiple threads, multiple times, that this has already happened for quite a few nullseccers? Many of them maintain highsec alts just so they can make isk or do industry there. Highsec is the way of the future. Surrender to CONCORD or face the consequences.
HTFU and go back to highsec. Adapt to highsec. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
destiny2
57
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 10:20:00 -
[60] - Quote
If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, |
|
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
562
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 10:22:00 -
[61] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:u are a moron my dear friend. if highsec is so TOO GOOD, why you dont go there? pff. u just dont know what are ya talkin about... Did you miss where we said, in multiple threads, multiple times, that this has already happened for quite a few nullseccers? Many of them maintain highsec alts just so they can make isk or do industry there. Highsec is the way of the future. Surrender to CONCORD or face the consequences. HTFU and go back to highsec. Adapt to highsec. well, I prefer CONCORD overlords to goon overlords. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5668
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 10:25:00 -
[62] - Quote
destiny2 wrote:If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk
How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of?
You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1055
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 10:29:00 -
[63] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:destiny2 wrote:If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of? You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop. So does that mean you don't get to complain about your industry till you can't put up outposts and until the old ones are destructible and till you cannot build supers? Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2226
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 10:31:00 -
[64] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:destiny2 wrote:If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of? You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop. If only our 20bil a pop stations were totally invulnerable like their free ones which they get multiple of in some systems. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5669
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 10:37:00 -
[65] - Quote
In fact I bet you have no idea just how high alliance costs in null are, do you? And why should you, when everything is automatically taken care of for you by NPCs. For free.
Go look up how much to costs to install an ihub. And upgrade it. And deploy Cyno jammers and jump bridges. And TCUs. And SBUs. And how much the monthly Sov bills are. And how much a station costs. And how much they cost to upgrade.
You and most hi-seccers seem to think sov null is just Turn up, Plant flag, Collect free Technetium & Anomalies. . You're missing the titanic amount of ISK (amd effort) that's required to gain, control, upgrade and maintain space. And that's not even including what it costs to fight for it. Just to claim it costs many billions per region, and then more billions per month to keep it.
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5669
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 10:37:00 -
[66] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Malcanis wrote:destiny2 wrote:If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of? You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop. If only our 20bil a pop stations were totally invulnerable like their free ones which they get multiple of in some systems.
lol typical entitled nullseccer MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
psycho freak
Snuff Box
83
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 10:40:00 -
[67] - Quote
Tbh dont care how much they buff 0.0 have no intention of returning and becoming a sheep/lemming or a number in a blob
no need to nurf hisec its the main hub of eve
not everyone has the time to comit to a corp are theyer subscription fee any difrent to anyone elses?
eve is game we pay for so do what you want when you want anyone who wants you to be difrent can go f**k themselfs tbh my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k
nop cant find it |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
562
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 10:43:00 -
[68] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Malcanis wrote:destiny2 wrote:If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of? You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop. If only our 20bil a pop stations were totally invulnerable like their free ones which they get multiple of in some systems. lol typical entitled nullseccer well, let's get honest here: everybody's a typical self-entitled whatever-fancies-you [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Glathull
Suicidal Panda Tears of Love and Death
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 10:46:00 -
[69] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:In fact I bet you have no idea just how high alliance costs in null are, do you? And why should you, when everything is automatically taken care of for you by NPCs. For free.
Go look up how much to costs to install an ihub. And upgrade it. And deploy Cyno jammers and jump bridges. And TCUs. And SBUs. And how much the monthly Sov bills are. And how much a station costs. And how much they cost to upgrade.
You and most hi-seccers seem to think sov null is just Turn up, Plant flag, Collect free Technetium & Anomalies. . You're missing the titanic amount of ISK (amd effort) that's required to gain, control, upgrade and maintain space. And that's not even including what it costs to fight for it. Just to claim it costs many billions per region, and then more billions per month to keep it.
Your point seems to be that turning null-sec into high-sec is very expensive and potentially time consuming. And ultimately a failure. And that bothers you. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5669
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 10:53:00 -
[70] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Malcanis wrote:In fact I bet you have no idea just how high alliance costs in null are, do you? And why should you, when everything is automatically taken care of for you by NPCs. For free.
Go look up how much to costs to install an ihub. And upgrade it. And deploy Cyno jammers and jump bridges. And TCUs. And SBUs. And how much the monthly Sov bills are. And how much a station costs. And how much they cost to upgrade.
You and most hi-seccers seem to think sov null is just Turn up, Plant flag, Collect free Technetium & Anomalies. . You're missing the titanic amount of ISK (amd effort) that's required to gain, control, upgrade and maintain space. And that's not even including what it costs to fight for it. Just to claim it costs many billions per region, and then more billions per month to keep it.
Your point seems to be that turning null-sec into high-sec is very expensive and potentially time consuming. And ultimately a failure. And that bothers you.
What the hell does that even mean "turning it into hi-sec". Do you mean the ability to, you know, do stuff ? Oh well lawks-a-lawdy lookit dem uppity nullers trying to pretend deys proper decent folk, fo shame, fo shame.
Because to the best of my knowledge, there's no upgrade that adds CONCORD, there's no upgrade that adds Crimewatch, there's no upgrade that adds sec hit, there's no upgrade that adds gate guns, there's no upgrade that adds agents, there's no upgrade that adds skillbooks, and worst of all there's no upgrade that adds the ability to use knowledge and logic in posts made by people who know nothing about nullsec and yet seem to think that they're qualified to make comments on it without appearing very ignorant indeed. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
|
Lexmana
739
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 10:56:00 -
[71] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Malcanis wrote:In fact I bet you have no idea just how high alliance costs in null are, do you? And why should you, when everything is automatically taken care of for you by NPCs. For free.
Go look up how much to costs to install an ihub. And upgrade it. And deploy Cyno jammers and jump bridges. And TCUs. And SBUs. And how much the monthly Sov bills are. And how much a station costs. And how much they cost to upgrade.
You and most hi-seccers seem to think sov null is just Turn up, Plant flag, Collect free Technetium & Anomalies. . You're missing the titanic amount of ISK (amd effort) that's required to gain, control, upgrade and maintain space. And that's not even including what it costs to fight for it. Just to claim it costs many billions per region, and then more billions per month to keep it.
Your point seems to be that turning null-sec into high-sec is very expensive and potentially time consuming. And ultimately a failure. And that bothers you. I don't think you got it right. But whats your point? |
Luanda Heartbreaker
FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:01:00 -
[72] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:u are a moron my dear friend. if highsec is so TOO GOOD, why you dont go there? pff. u just dont know what are ya talkin about... Did you miss where we said, in multiple threads, multiple times, that this has already happened for quite a few nullseccers? Many of them maintain highsec alts just so they can make isk or do industry there.
then u do something very wrong. most of us move to nullsec cos there it is easier to print isk even solo... thats the only reason to leave the safe empire
|
Glathull
Suicidal Panda Tears of Love and Death
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:07:00 -
[73] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Glathull wrote:Malcanis wrote:In fact I bet you have no idea just how high alliance costs in null are, do you? And why should you, when everything is automatically taken care of for you by NPCs. For free.
Go look up how much to costs to install an ihub. And upgrade it. And deploy Cyno jammers and jump bridges. And TCUs. And SBUs. And how much the monthly Sov bills are. And how much a station costs. And how much they cost to upgrade.
You and most hi-seccers seem to think sov null is just Turn up, Plant flag, Collect free Technetium & Anomalies. . You're missing the titanic amount of ISK (amd effort) that's required to gain, control, upgrade and maintain space. And that's not even including what it costs to fight for it. Just to claim it costs many billions per region, and then more billions per month to keep it.
Your point seems to be that turning null-sec into high-sec is very expensive and potentially time consuming. And ultimately a failure. And that bothers you. I don't think you got it right. But whats your point?
My point is pretty simple: Malcanis is talking about how expensive it is to do "things" in null sec. Things that are pretty easy to do in high sec.
In other words, he(?) is saying that setting up the infrastructure that you need in null sec to do the same kinds of things you can do in high sec for free is a frustration for him(her). And when all of that is done, and all that ISK is spent, it's still not really the same as high sec.
Am I misreading that?
edited to add that my gender questions aren't a challenge to Malcanis. Just respecting the fact that I have no idea. |
Lexmana
739
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:14:00 -
[74] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Lexmana wrote:Glathull wrote:Malcanis wrote:In fact I bet you have no idea just how high alliance costs in null are, do you? And why should you, when everything is automatically taken care of for you by NPCs. For free.
Go look up how much to costs to install an ihub. And upgrade it. And deploy Cyno jammers and jump bridges. And TCUs. And SBUs. And how much the monthly Sov bills are. And how much a station costs. And how much they cost to upgrade.
You and most hi-seccers seem to think sov null is just Turn up, Plant flag, Collect free Technetium & Anomalies. . You're missing the titanic amount of ISK (amd effort) that's required to gain, control, upgrade and maintain space. And that's not even including what it costs to fight for it. Just to claim it costs many billions per region, and then more billions per month to keep it.
Your point seems to be that turning null-sec into high-sec is very expensive and potentially time consuming. And ultimately a failure. And that bothers you. I don't think you got it right. But whats your point? My point is pretty simple: Malcanis is talking about how expensive it is to do "things" in null sec. Things that are pretty easy to do in high sec. In other words, he(?) is saying that setting up the infrastructure that you need in null sec to do the same kinds of things you can do in high sec for free is a frustration for him(her). And when all of that is done, and all that ISK is spent, it's still not really the same as high sec. Am I misreading that? edited to add that my gender questions aren't a challenge to Malcanis. Just respecting the fact that I have no idea.
Malcanis speaks very well for himself. But I think you are missing the point. There is nothing wrong with conquering, organising, funding, building, maintaining and defending empires and infrastructures. What is wrong is getting all that for free and still complain asking for more ISK and less effort.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5675
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:20:00 -
[75] - Quote
You are not only misreading it, you're employing an obvious fallacy.
"People build stuff in hi-sec, therefore trying to make it viable to build stuff in nullsec as well is the same as trying to turn it into hi-sec".
"****** had a moustache and you're growing a moustache, therefore you're trying to declare war on Poland and conquer eastern Europe."
Imagine that all Amarr ships had a 50% hit point penalty in 0.0; correcting this wouldn't be "turning 0.0 into hi-sec", it would just be correcting an obvious and egregious imbalance, because there's nothing inherent to the concept of hi-sec that mandates Amarr ships only being worthwhile in empire and not in null.
SO: No, building stuff isn't the defining characteristic of hi-sec. What makes hi-sec hi-sec are the characteristics that are unique to it, like CONCORD.
The ability to build stuff is explicitly enabled in all areas, even W-space; but they're not properly balanced. Hi-sec has all of the advantages and none of the disadvantages, which is obviously imbalanced. You don't get to have the best stations AND multiple stations AND the stations are free AND you can't be locked out of them AND you can't lose them AND you get free NPC protection AND you can run missions from them... something has to give here.
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Solstice Project
Carebear Cadaver Productions
2452
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:21:00 -
[76] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Do you mean the ability to, you know, do stuff ? Oh well lawks-a-lawdy lookit dem uppity nullers trying to pretend deys proper decent folk, fo shame, fo shame. I've read through all posts, actually interested. Then i saw this and went ...
... WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN ?
Could you translate, please? Just so i can keep context ... thanks. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1055
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:26:00 -
[77] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:You are not only misreading it, you're employing an obvious fallacy.
"People build stuff in hi-sec, therefore trying to make it viable to build stuff in nullsec as well is the same as trying to turn it into hi-sec".
"****** had a moustache and you're growing a moustache, therefore you're trying to declare war on Poland and conquer eastern Europe."
Imagine that all Amarr ships had a 50% hit point penalty in 0.0; correcting this wouldn't be "turning 0.0 into hi-sec", it would just be correcting an obvious and egregious imbalance, because there's nothing inherent to the concept of hi-sec that mandates Amarr ships only being worthwhile in empire and not in null.
SO: No, building stuff isn't the defining characteristic of hi-sec. What makes hi-sec hi-sec are the characteristics that are unique to it, like CONCORD.
The ability to build stuff is explicitly enabled in all areas, even W-space; but they're not properly balanced. Hi-sec has all of the advantages and none of the disadvantages, which is obviously imbalanced. You don't get to have the best stations AND multiple stations AND the stations are free AND you can't be locked out of them AND you can't lose them AND you get free NPC protection AND you can run missions from them... something has to give here.
You try to build large quanities of anything in Wormhole space and see the fact that the costs soon out weight the rewards. Yes we can build some things in Wormholes but no way near the amounts that can be built in Null And to top it all off Null has access to ice to power those POSs and Moon Goo to help fund those POSs. That is even before we get to the fact that in null you are no more than a few minutes from the nearest Hi-Sec market via cyno.
So NO null has not gotten the bad end of the manufacturing stick by a long run.
As I have said Player owned should be better than NPC but I think giving null huge quantities of Hi-sec minerals would just make super caps owned by every person and their dog as well as completely destroying the hi-sec markets. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
173
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:26:00 -
[78] - Quote
the game and its features is working as intended
because it it wasnt the devs would have fixed it
the pure fact that something exists is a proof that it was intended this way - like smallpox or stephen hawking which only goes to show that The Developer can be a huge 8=============D sometimes
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5675
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:29:00 -
[79] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Malcanis wrote:Do you mean the ability to, you know, do stuff ? Oh well lawks-a-lawdy lookit dem uppity nullers trying to pretend deys proper decent folk, fo shame, fo shame. I've read through all posts, actually interested. Then i saw this and went ... ... WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN ? Could you translate, please? Just so i can keep context ... thanks.
I am satirically drawing a comparison between the person I was replying to and the kind of person who thinks that they're not racist, but...
There's a mindset that confuses what is with what should be. That because 0.0 sucks for activities that aren't waiting on a titan or smooshing red pluses, it's supposed to be that way. Or that it's that way because the people in 0.0 are somehow less deserving or intelligent or hardworking. Sociologists call this mindset "privilege" (As in "male privilege" or "inherited wealth privilege" - the viewpoint of someone who sees the world through the lens of their advantages without realising or admitting that they are advantaged - so they think that poor people are all poor or that women get piad less for the same work or that blacks receive harsher sentences for equivalent crimes or that 0.0ers can't even build enough ammo for themselves in their own space, let alone ships and modules because they're lazy or stupid or less deserving in the eyes of God or whatever bullshit they claim in order to deny that rebalancing is required). MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Glathull
Suicidal Panda Tears of Love and Death
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:30:00 -
[80] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:You are not only misreading it, you're employing an obvious fallacy.
"People build stuff in hi-sec, therefore trying to make it viable to build stuff in nullsec as well is the same as trying to turn it into hi-sec".
"****** had a moustache and you're growing a moustache, therefore you're trying to declare war on Poland and conquer eastern Europe."
Imagine that all Amarr ships had a 50% hit point penalty in 0.0; correcting this wouldn't be "turning 0.0 into hi-sec", it would just be correcting an obvious and egregious imbalance, because there's nothing inherent to the concept of hi-sec that mandates Amarr ships only being worthwhile in empire and not in null.
SO: No, building stuff isn't the defining characteristic of hi-sec. What makes hi-sec hi-sec are the characteristics that are unique to it, like CONCORD.
The ability to build stuff is explicitly enabled in all areas, even W-space; but they're not properly balanced. Hi-sec has all of the advantages and none of the disadvantages, which is obviously imbalanced. You don't get to have the best stations AND multiple stations AND the stations are free AND you can't be locked out of them AND you can't lose them AND you get free NPC protection AND you can run missions from them... something has to give here.
There's a lot of incoherent stuff here.
I'm pretty careful about fallacies, and I haven't employed any here.
According to you:
Building things is okay.
So long as . . . it's not more efficient to build things in high sec.
What you want is a null sec that has stations at least as good as high sec for, well, everything.
That's what it sounds like.
|
|
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1685
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:37:00 -
[81] - Quote
Randolph Rothstein wrote:the game and its features is working as intended
because it it wasnt the devs would have fixed it
the pure fact that something exists is a proof that it was intended this way - like smallpox or stephen hawking which only goes to show that The Developer can be a huge 8=============D sometimes
That's just about the stupidest **** I've read today. Never post again. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
173
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:46:00 -
[82] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Randolph Rothstein wrote:the game and its features is working as intended
because it it wasnt the devs would have fixed it
the pure fact that something exists is a proof that it was intended this way - like smallpox or stephen hawking which only goes to show that The Developer can be a huge 8=============D sometimes
That's just about the stupidest **** I've read today. Never post again.
Phrases like "Never post again" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1685
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:48:00 -
[83] - Quote
Randolph Rothstein wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Randolph Rothstein wrote:the game and its features is working as intended
because it it wasnt the devs would have fixed it
the pure fact that something exists is a proof that it was intended this way - like smallpox or stephen hawking which only goes to show that The Developer can be a huge 8=============D sometimes
That's just about the stupidest **** I've read today. Never post again. Phrases like "Never post again" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm Yes, keep trying to outdo yourself. This is entertaining. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Alara IonStorm
3961
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:51:00 -
[84] - Quote
Randolph Rothstein wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Randolph Rothstein wrote:the game and its features is working as intended
because it it wasnt the devs would have fixed it
the pure fact that something exists is a proof that it was intended this way - like smallpox or stephen hawking which only goes to show that The Developer can be a huge 8=============D sometimes
That's just about the stupidest **** I've read today. Never post again. Phrases like "Never post again" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm Actually it means to convey his wish that you no longer post on the forums, that much is obvious.
As for your initial post Dev's take time to fix things and Dev's make mistakes in implementation all the time.
Working as Intended because it exists is not an arguments, you actually have to explain why it is better.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5676
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:51:00 -
[85] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Malcanis wrote:You are not only misreading it, you're employing an obvious fallacy.
"People build stuff in hi-sec, therefore trying to make it viable to build stuff in nullsec as well is the same as trying to turn it into hi-sec".
"****** had a moustache and you're growing a moustache, therefore you're trying to declare war on Poland and conquer eastern Europe."
Imagine that all Amarr ships had a 50% hit point penalty in 0.0; correcting this wouldn't be "turning 0.0 into hi-sec", it would just be correcting an obvious and egregious imbalance, because there's nothing inherent to the concept of hi-sec that mandates Amarr ships only being worthwhile in empire and not in null.
SO: No, building stuff isn't the defining characteristic of hi-sec. What makes hi-sec hi-sec are the characteristics that are unique to it, like CONCORD.
The ability to build stuff is explicitly enabled in all areas, even W-space; but they're not properly balanced. Hi-sec has all of the advantages and none of the disadvantages, which is obviously imbalanced. You don't get to have the best stations AND multiple stations AND the stations are free AND you can't be locked out of them AND you can't lose them AND you get free NPC protection AND you can run missions from them... something has to give here.
There's a lot of incoherent stuff here. I'm pretty careful about fallacies, and I haven't employed any here.
You employed the exact fallacy that I demonstrated: asserting that two things with a single similar characteristic are therefore similar in all characteristics.
Glathull wrote: According to you:
Building things is okay.
So long as . . . it's not more efficient to build things in high sec.
What you want is a null sec that has stations at least as good as high sec for, well, everything.
That's what it sounds like.
And yes, pretty much that's what it sounds like because that's what it is. That's what I'm arguing.
Hi-sec is both more efficient AND free AND safer. That's as unbalanced as a ship that's faster AND has more EHP AND has better DPS than others in its class. Why should hi-sec be the best in every respect? Why isn't there a trade-off for that CONCORD-provided safety? Shouldn't that be balanced against lower efficiency? Shouldn't a station that cost players tens of billions of ISK and which is vulnerable to being taken away from them provide some compelling efficiency advantage over one that's just put there for free and which they can't ever be locked out of and which doesn't require continuous spending on sov bills?
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
337
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:55:00 -
[86] - Quote
The fact is many hisec players will still venture into losec / WHs to do good PI there, just because they prefer hisec, doesn't mean theyll Never leave it, and so the pirates will continue to have targets, overnerf hisec, and you get fewer players in the game, and fewer targets for null/losec. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1686
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:58:00 -
[87] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:The fact is many hisec players will still venture into losec / WHs to do good PI etc there, just because they prefer hisec, doesn't mean theyll Never leave it, and so the pirates will continue to have targets, overnerf hisec, and you get fewer players in the game, and fewer targets for null/losec. I guess it's a good thing then that nobody's suggesting an overnerf. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5676
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:59:00 -
[88] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Randolph Rothstein wrote:the game and its features is working as intended
because it it wasnt the devs would have fixed it
the pure fact that something exists is a proof that it was intended this way - like smallpox or stephen hawking which only goes to show that The Developer can be a huge 8=============D sometimes
That's just about the stupidest **** I've read today. Never post again.
You might want to adjust the gain on your sarcasm detector a smidge there, mate MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5676
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:00:00 -
[89] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:The fact is many hisec players will still venture into losec / WHs to do good PI etc there, just because they prefer hisec, doesn't mean theyll Never leave it, and so the pirates will continue to have targets, overnerf hisec, and you get fewer players in the game, and fewer targets for null/losec.
What would be an "overnerf"? MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
psycho freak
Snuff Box
84
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:03:00 -
[90] - Quote
Most ppl know what they are doing going to null and if they dont they should
pointless crying to nurf another area just becouse your area sucks
0.0 does need a buff tbh make all 0.0 npc space problem solved add another 10 regions also make eve big again
nurfing one area to boost another wont work youll just pissoff that area population and will result in unsubing and more whineing on forums my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k
nop cant find it |
|
Glathull
Suicidal Panda Tears of Love and Death
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:14:00 -
[91] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Glathull wrote:Malcanis wrote:You are not only misreading it, you're employing an obvious fallacy.
"People build stuff in hi-sec, therefore trying to make it viable to build stuff in nullsec as well is the same as trying to turn it into hi-sec".
"****** had a moustache and you're growing a moustache, therefore you're trying to declare war on Poland and conquer eastern Europe."
Imagine that all Amarr ships had a 50% hit point penalty in 0.0; correcting this wouldn't be "turning 0.0 into hi-sec", it would just be correcting an obvious and egregious imbalance, because there's nothing inherent to the concept of hi-sec that mandates Amarr ships only being worthwhile in empire and not in null.
SO: No, building stuff isn't the defining characteristic of hi-sec. What makes hi-sec hi-sec are the characteristics that are unique to it, like CONCORD.
The ability to build stuff is explicitly enabled in all areas, even W-space; but they're not properly balanced. Hi-sec has all of the advantages and none of the disadvantages, which is obviously imbalanced. You don't get to have the best stations AND multiple stations AND the stations are free AND you can't be locked out of them AND you can't lose them AND you get free NPC protection AND you can run missions from them... something has to give here.
There's a lot of incoherent stuff here. I'm pretty careful about fallacies, and I haven't employed any here. You employed the exact fallacy that I demonstrated: asserting that two things with a single similar characteristic are therefore similar in all characteristics. Glathull wrote: According to you:
Building things is okay.
So long as . . . it's not more efficient to build things in high sec.
What you want is a null sec that has stations at least as good as high sec for, well, everything.
That's what it sounds like.
And yes, pretty much that's what it sounds like because that's what it is. That's what I'm arguing. Hi-sec is both more efficient AND free AND safer. That's as unbalanced as a ship that's faster AND has more EHP AND has better DPS than others in its class. Why should hi-sec be the best in every respect? Why isn't there a trade-off for that CONCORD-provided safety? Shouldn't that be balanced against lower efficiency? Shouldn't a station that cost players tens of billions of ISK and which is vulnerable to being taken away from them provide some compelling efficiency advantage over one that's just put there for free and which they can't ever be locked out of and which doesn't require continuous spending on sov bills?
Your argument is that there is something wrong with people who don't go around killing each other at every chance and cooperate in an attempt to make money . . . this is somehow bad, and not what happens in the real world, and not, under any circumstances, what should happen in EVE?
You really think anyone is going to buy this idea?
Here's an idea: go pirate yourself and your nullnec alt-dolts.
Or here's an even better idea: adapt.
There are already plenty of ways to make ISK, or tears, or whatever it is you want as a reward. So go find them. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5678
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:16:00 -
[92] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Malcanis wrote:Glathull wrote:Malcanis wrote:You are not only misreading it, you're employing an obvious fallacy.
"People build stuff in hi-sec, therefore trying to make it viable to build stuff in nullsec as well is the same as trying to turn it into hi-sec".
"****** had a moustache and you're growing a moustache, therefore you're trying to declare war on Poland and conquer eastern Europe."
Imagine that all Amarr ships had a 50% hit point penalty in 0.0; correcting this wouldn't be "turning 0.0 into hi-sec", it would just be correcting an obvious and egregious imbalance, because there's nothing inherent to the concept of hi-sec that mandates Amarr ships only being worthwhile in empire and not in null.
SO: No, building stuff isn't the defining characteristic of hi-sec. What makes hi-sec hi-sec are the characteristics that are unique to it, like CONCORD.
The ability to build stuff is explicitly enabled in all areas, even W-space; but they're not properly balanced. Hi-sec has all of the advantages and none of the disadvantages, which is obviously imbalanced. You don't get to have the best stations AND multiple stations AND the stations are free AND you can't be locked out of them AND you can't lose them AND you get free NPC protection AND you can run missions from them... something has to give here.
There's a lot of incoherent stuff here. I'm pretty careful about fallacies, and I haven't employed any here. You employed the exact fallacy that I demonstrated: asserting that two things with a single similar characteristic are therefore similar in all characteristics. Glathull wrote: According to you:
Building things is okay.
So long as . . . it's not more efficient to build things in high sec.
What you want is a null sec that has stations at least as good as high sec for, well, everything.
That's what it sounds like.
And yes, pretty much that's what it sounds like because that's what it is. That's what I'm arguing. Hi-sec is both more efficient AND free AND safer. That's as unbalanced as a ship that's faster AND has more EHP AND has better DPS than others in its class. Why should hi-sec be the best in every respect? Why isn't there a trade-off for that CONCORD-provided safety? Shouldn't that be balanced against lower efficiency? Shouldn't a station that cost players tens of billions of ISK and which is vulnerable to being taken away from them provide some compelling efficiency advantage over one that's just put there for free and which they can't ever be locked out of and which doesn't require continuous spending on sov bills? Your argument is that there is something wrong with people who don't go around killing each other at every chance and cooperate in an attempt to make money . . . this is somehow bad, and not what happens in the real world, and not, under any circumstances, what should happen in EVE? You really think anyone is going to buy this idea?
What? No it isn't. Where did that come from?
Oh wait, I see. You've got no answer to my very pertinent question so you're trying a troll-derail.
It's OK man, I'll just take this as your admission that I'm right.
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2227
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:24:00 -
[93] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Oh wait, I see. You've got no answer to my very pertinent question so you're trying a troll-derail.
It's OK man, I'll just take this as your admission that I'm right. Achievement Unlocked: "Troll Detected" (Detect 10/10 trolls)
Next Goal: "Lock on" (Detect 50 trolls) Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2227
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:25:00 -
[94] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Randolph Rothstein wrote:the game and its features is working as intended
because it it wasnt the devs would have fixed it
the pure fact that something exists is a proof that it was intended this way - like smallpox or stephen hawking which only goes to show that The Developer can be a huge 8=============D sometimes
That's just about the stupidest **** I've read today. Never post again. You might want to adjust the gain on your sarcasm detector a smidge there, mate The fact he drew an ascii dong shows that it was in no way serious. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Confessor Golab
Lower Guk
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:27:00 -
[95] - Quote
Guys, Im sorry to intrude on the Eternal Debate of Nerf Others, but you seem to miss the most important point here.
Its all about profits.
CCP is not some imaginary outfit full of idealistic nerdlings , dreaming of making the most interesting and original space game for all peoples, but a company that has to pay salaries and limit layoffs in generally tanking Western economy. All company boards are the same, and Im strangely certain the CCP one isnt an exception. The question of the day isnt , `Oh, how to make nullsec interesting and pvp meaningfull??` Its rather; 1.Ok guys, how do we get the soccer moms? 2.The Guild Wars 2 is tanking hard, how do we get those players today? 3. STO is making mistake on mistake, lets incentivize those customers that want a space game without a blatant cash-grab approach, and in 2 months they will buy plex for sure 3. WoW population seems to have stabilized, how do we get those customers this month? 4.TSW seems to be slowly losing subscriptions, here`s a goldmine for this trimester.
For any company, its first get new customers- the hardest part, then retain the old customers. And its obvious for anyone that the fabled new customer wont be attracted by the perspective of being thrown in the nullsec corp at the whims of a screaming man-child with a nascent god complex. The new customer does not want his time investment being blown by a gate camp. The new customer wants to relax after a hard day in the office, trying desperately to hold on a job that may or may not be delocalised soon. The new customer wants complexity that can be slowly assimilated and exploited in (seemingly) innovative ways. And so on.
Recent CCP efforts are all in this direction, btw, to retain the economic balance, which reposes mainly on ships being destroyed and produced, all the while making more hi-sec content. Drone nerf and the `Wholesale Aggro` experiment produced scores of expensive pve ships lost, and being replaced. The cute new little Venture is a marvelous tool for hi-sec miners to plunge into wormholes and losec to get those Ladars. The superb rebalanced cruisers are ready for short, cheap losec intrusions. The Bounties system is a blatant attempt to produce some more destroyed ships in hi-sec, not because of the negligible bounties of course, but attempting to cash on the shooting sprees that seem to happen with the new criminal/suspect system. And so on.
In my opinion, CCP will continue to move into hi-sec consensual pvp/pve hybrid direction, as that seems to satisfy the most numerically important customer base.
Its all about profits. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5678
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:40:00 -
[96] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Malcanis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Randolph Rothstein wrote:the game and its features is working as intended
because it it wasnt the devs would have fixed it
the pure fact that something exists is a proof that it was intended this way - like smallpox or stephen hawking which only goes to show that The Developer can be a huge 8=============D sometimes
That's just about the stupidest **** I've read today. Never post again. You might want to adjust the gain on your sarcasm detector a smidge there, mate The fact he drew an ascii dong shows that it was in no way serious.
ASCII dongs are the very archetype of serious seriousity
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
329
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:41:00 -
[97] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. any examples of "other space"? i'm only aware of low, sov 0.0, NPC 0.0 and wormholes. And not one of these worth spending time I PAID FOR. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:41:00 -
[98] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:The fact is many hisec players will still venture into losec / WHs to do good PI etc there, just because they prefer hisec, doesn't mean theyll Never leave it, and so the pirates will continue to have targets, overnerf hisec, and you get fewer players in the game, and fewer targets for null/losec. I guess it's a good thing then that nobody's suggesting an overnerf.
Yeah about that....
Rain6635 wrote:it should be that high sec missions are run just for the standings, so pilots can travel through unmolested on their way back to jita. no LP or ISK rewards and bonus.
AND standings degrade over time... so you have to return to repair standings with missions periodically.
like going to the DMV or filing taxes, something that everyone has to do.
There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5678
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:42:00 -
[99] - Quote
Confessor Golab wrote:Guys, Im sorry to intrude on the Eternal Debate of Nerf Others, but you seem to miss the most important point here.
Its all about profits.
CCP is not some imaginary outfit full of idealistic nerdlings , dreaming of making the most interesting and original space game for all peoples, but a company that has to pay salaries and limit layoffs in generally tanking Western economy. All company boards are the same, and Im strangely certain the CCP one isnt an exception. The question of the day isnt , `Oh, how to make nullsec interesting and pvp meaningfull??` Its rather; 1.Ok guys, how do we get the soccer moms? 2.The Guild Wars 2 is tanking hard, how do we get those players today? 3. STO is making mistake on mistake, lets incentivize those customers that want a space game without a blatant cash-grab approach, and in 2 months they will buy plex for sure 3. WoW population seems to have stabilized, how do we get those customers this month? 4.TSW seems to be slowly losing subscriptions, here`s a goldmine for this trimester.
For any company, its first get new customers- the hardest part, then retain the old customers. And its obvious for anyone that the fabled new customer wont be attracted by the perspective of being thrown in the nullsec corp at the whims of a screaming man-child with a nascent god complex. The new customer does not want his time investment being blown by a gate camp. The new customer wants to relax after a hard day in the office, trying desperately to hold on a job that may or may not be delocalised soon. The new customer wants complexity that can be slowly assimilated and exploited in (seemingly) innovative ways. And so on.
Recent CCP efforts are all in this direction, btw, to retain the economic balance, which reposes mainly on ships being destroyed and produced, all the while making more hi-sec content. Drone nerf and the `Wholesale Aggro` experiment produced scores of expensive pve ships lost, and being replaced. The cute new little Venture is a marvelous tool for hi-sec miners to plunge into wormholes and losec to get those Ladars. The superb rebalanced cruisers are ready for short, cheap losec intrusions. The Bounties system is a blatant attempt to produce some more destroyed ships in hi-sec, not because of the negligible bounties of course, but attempting to cash on the shooting sprees that seem to happen with the new criminal/suspect system. And so on.
In my opinion, CCP will continue to move into hi-sec consensual pvp/pve hybrid direction, as that seems to satisfy the most numerically important customer base.
Its all about profits.
Ah yes, the old "silent majority" fallacy in the form of "unbalancing the game in my favour is a business necessity".
So you think CCP is eager to emulate the incredible commercial success of STO? MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
329
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:45:00 -
[100] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Peter Raptor wrote: It is Null sec that needs to be Buffed somehow, cos if you nerf the daylights outta High sec, people will have little choice but to
leave, and we'll get the same lousy player numbers as during the last unending Hulkaggeddon before the Mining Barge Buff.
The problem is that many aspects of highsec are offered in near infinite amount and without cost. Adjusting aspects of nullsec to be more appealing then things that are free, extremely convenient and wholly without risk would be far more game breaking then merely downgrading specific highsec services. If there was a way to achieve this without touching highsec I would be entirely for it since it would create much less fuss. there is way: add CONCORD. It's quite simple isn't it? |
|
Lexmana
739
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:50:00 -
[101] - Quote
Confessor Golab wrote:Guys, Im sorry to intrude on the Eternal Debate of Nerf Others, but you seem to miss the most important point here.
Its all about profits.
Bla Bla soccer moms Bla Bla WoW Bla Bla Bla
You do realise that on a global market it is often a good business strategy to create a niche product traget at a specific group of customers. Or do you think the car industry should all focus on soccer moms too? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5680
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:51:00 -
[102] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Malcanis wrote:You are not only misreading it, you're employing an obvious fallacy.
"People build stuff in hi-sec, therefore trying to make it viable to build stuff in nullsec as well is the same as trying to turn it into hi-sec".
"****** had a moustache and you're growing a moustache, therefore you're trying to declare war on Poland and conquer eastern Europe."
Imagine that all Amarr ships had a 50% hit point penalty in 0.0; correcting this wouldn't be "turning 0.0 into hi-sec", it would just be correcting an obvious and egregious imbalance, because there's nothing inherent to the concept of hi-sec that mandates Amarr ships only being worthwhile in empire and not in null.
SO: No, building stuff isn't the defining characteristic of hi-sec. What makes hi-sec hi-sec are the characteristics that are unique to it, like CONCORD.
The ability to build stuff is explicitly enabled in all areas, even W-space; but they're not properly balanced. Hi-sec has all of the advantages and none of the disadvantages, which is obviously imbalanced. You don't get to have the best stations AND multiple stations AND the stations are free AND you can't be locked out of them AND you can't lose them AND you get free NPC protection AND you can run missions from them... something has to give here.
You try to build large quanities of anything in Wormhole space and see the fact that the costs soon out weight the rewards. Yes we can build some things in Wormholes but no way near the amounts that can be built in Null And to top it all off Null has access to ice to power those POSs and Moon Goo to help fund those POSs. That is even before we get to the fact that in null you are no more than a few minutes from the nearest Hi-Sec market via cyno. So NO null has not gotten the bad end of the manufacturing stick by a long run. As I have said Player owned should be better than NPC but I think giving null huge quantities of Hi-sec minerals would just make super caps owned by every person and their dog as well as completely destroying the hi-sec markets.
Yep I agree about W-space being even worse than sov 0.0, but I didn't want to complicate the issue by discussing which of the 2 starving dogs fighting for scraps from the fat man's table was the skinniest MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1686
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:52:00 -
[103] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Malcanis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Randolph Rothstein wrote:the game and its features is working as intended
because it it wasnt the devs would have fixed it
the pure fact that something exists is a proof that it was intended this way - like smallpox or stephen hawking which only goes to show that The Developer can be a huge 8=============D sometimes
That's just about the stupidest **** I've read today. Never post again. You might want to adjust the gain on your sarcasm detector a smidge there, mate The fact he drew an ascii dong shows that it was in no way serious. I didn't actually read past the second sentence.
But that damn sarcasm detector, I keep recalibrating it and it still never works properly. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1686
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:53:00 -
[104] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Yep I agree about W-space being even worse than sov 0.0, but I didn't want to complicate the issue by discussing which of the 2 starving dogs fighting for scraps from the fat man's table was the skinniest Well W-space IS the frontier that wasn't meant to have large industrial capability. What it does have is the best PVE you can get anywhere, plus relative isolation and safety afforded by various mechanics and balanced only because there's no local.
I don't hear w-space residents clamoring for changes, I'm fairly sure they like it the way it is for the most part. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5680
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:54:00 -
[105] - Quote
The haze of ignorance and the greasy mist of fallacious privilege defence is probably clogging up the intake. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5680
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:58:00 -
[106] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Malcanis wrote:Yep I agree about W-space being even worse than sov 0.0, but I didn't want to complicate the issue by discussing which of the 2 starving dogs fighting for scraps from the fat man's table was the skinniest Well W-space IS the frontier that wasn't meant to have large industrial capability. What it does have is the best PVE you can get anywhere, plus relative isolation and safety afforded by various mechanics and balanced only because there's no local. I don't hear w-space residents clamoring for changes, I'm fairly sure they like it the way it is for the most part.
I'm fairly sure that they'd like to be able to build their own T3s (as well as refit them) but maybe you're right, I don't know. Again, watch out for the ontology fallacy; it might just be that people who like to build stuff more complex than ammo simply completely avoid W-space. Therefore there are no people in W-space who like to build stuff. But that doesn't preclude the possibility that there are people who would like to be able to live self-sufficiently in W-space. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1055
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:59:00 -
[107] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Malcanis wrote:Yep I agree about W-space being even worse than sov 0.0, but I didn't want to complicate the issue by discussing which of the 2 starving dogs fighting for scraps from the fat man's table was the skinniest Well W-space IS the frontier that wasn't meant to have large industrial capability. What it does have is the best PVE you can get anywhere, plus relative isolation and safety afforded by various mechanics and balanced only because there's no local. I don't hear w-space residents clamoring for changes, I'm fairly sure they like it the way it is for the most part. I must remember that having the ability to face a huge number of Battleships that have the ability to completely cut off any avenue of escape while they destroy your home is classed as safe.
Actually wormhole residents would like POSs fixed, I think the reason they don't want CCP to touch wormhole space itself is more to do with their past performance on "fixing" areas and issues than a want for the area to be better, that and the fact that besides the POSs and crummy industrial capabilities wormhole space works about the best compared to the others. This however is more due to the type of people in Wormholes than the mechanics however. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
329
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 12:59:00 -
[108] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:destiny2 wrote:If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of? You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop. i spent 6 or 7 months of my and my corp activity to build outpost in 0.0. Mined, grinded alloys, lots of PI and stuff. 1 month after system was lost because alliance failed at war.
So what's your point again? you got lucky to get into right alliance so you have cake. i haven't and cake was taken from me. and there is difference. All the difference. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
564
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 13:02:00 -
[109] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Malcanis wrote:Yep I agree about W-space being even worse than sov 0.0, but I didn't want to complicate the issue by discussing which of the 2 starving dogs fighting for scraps from the fat man's table was the skinniest Well W-space IS the frontier that wasn't meant to have large industrial capability. What it does have is the best PVE you can get anywhere, plus relative isolation and safety afforded by various mechanics and balanced only because there's no local. I don't hear w-space residents clamoring for changes, I'm fairly sure they like it the way it is for the most part. I'm fairly sure that they'd like to be able to build their own T3s (as well as refit them) but maybe you're right, I don't know. Again, watch out for the ontology fallacy; it might just be that people who like to build stuff more complex than ammo simply completely avoid W-space. Therefore there are no people in W-space who like to build stuff. But that doesn't preclude the possibility that there are people who would like to be able to live self-sufficiently in W-space. don't forget that they can only refine 75% at most of what they can mine, which is like... well... not that much. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1055
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 13:20:00 -
[110] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Malcanis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Malcanis wrote:Yep I agree about W-space being even worse than sov 0.0, but I didn't want to complicate the issue by discussing which of the 2 starving dogs fighting for scraps from the fat man's table was the skinniest Well W-space IS the frontier that wasn't meant to have large industrial capability. What it does have is the best PVE you can get anywhere, plus relative isolation and safety afforded by various mechanics and balanced only because there's no local. I don't hear w-space residents clamoring for changes, I'm fairly sure they like it the way it is for the most part. I'm fairly sure that they'd like to be able to build their own T3s (as well as refit them) but maybe you're right, I don't know. Again, watch out for the ontology fallacy; it might just be that people who like to build stuff more complex than ammo simply completely avoid W-space. Therefore there are no people in W-space who like to build stuff. But that doesn't preclude the possibility that there are people who would like to be able to live self-sufficiently in W-space. don't forget that they can only refine 75% at most of what they can mine, which is like... well... not that much. There is crap loads to mine in wormholes that you then have to compress and take to Hi-sec to use for manufacturing as well as the need for Hi-sec alts so you can mine the Hi-sec ores as moving huge volumes out of a WH is depressing at best. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
|
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
940
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 13:25:00 -
[111] - Quote
Decrease war declaration costs, increase NPC corp tax and and make it apply to LP as well as bounties then limit highsec POSes to medium and small towers and I think you'd go a long way to making highsec much more reasonable space. |
Lexmana
739
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 13:33:00 -
[112] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Malcanis wrote:destiny2 wrote:If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of? You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop. i spent 6 or 7 months of my and my corp activity to build outpost in 0.0. Mined, grinded alloys, lots of PI and stuff. 1 month after system was lost because alliance failed at war. So what's your point again? you got lucky to get into right alliance so you have cake. i haven't and cake was taken from me. and there is difference. All the difference. What are you saying there. That in a game like EVE there should not be winnings and losses? You lost, he won. Suck it up! Or are you one of those that feel entitled to a win no matter what? |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
329
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 13:37:00 -
[113] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Decrease war declaration costs, increase NPC corp tax and and make it apply to LP as well as bounties then limit highsec POSes to medium and small towers and I think you'd go a long way to making highsec much more reasonable space. it's all good and refreshing.
However would anyone describe to me why the hell CONCORD pays for killing rats in 0.0? Who the hell would even care about them infesting spaces which belongs to noone? Remove CONCORD payouts from killing NPC in 0.0 and it will be more reasonable space |
Opertone
Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
217
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 13:38:00 -
[114] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game.
Lol what? Free space that is not contested? Are you in your own mind?
Every bit of null is occupied. And it can not support more people. Extra contenders will cause never ending wars and conflicts over resources and ownership.
This is why null can not fill. A super power will arise and kill all weaker parties. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
940
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 13:48:00 -
[115] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Decrease war declaration costs, increase NPC corp tax and and make it apply to LP as well as bounties then limit highsec POSes to medium and small towers and I think you'd go a long way to making highsec much more reasonable space. it's all good and refreshing. However would anyone describe to me why the hell CONCORD pays for killing rats in 0.0? Who the hell would even care about them infesting spaces which belongs to noone? Remove CONCORD payouts from killing NPC in 0.0 and it will be more reasonable space It would be no skin off my nose. But unlike you my intention in posting was to suggest things that would make highsec less terrible not to make stupid rhetorical arguments to try and further the advantage that bad game design gives me personally. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5683
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 13:50:00 -
[116] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Malcanis wrote:destiny2 wrote:If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of? You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop. i spent 6 or 7 months of my and my corp activity to build outpost in 0.0. Mined, grinded alloys, lots of PI and stuff. 1 month after system was lost because alliance failed at war. So what's your point again? you got lucky to get into right alliance so you have cake. i haven't and cake was taken from me. and there is difference. All the difference.
No, you just proved my point with an excellent example. That risk exists & should be compensated for. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5683
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 13:53:00 -
[117] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Decrease war declaration costs, increase NPC corp tax and and make it apply to LP as well as bounties then limit highsec POSes to medium and small towers and I think you'd go a long way to making highsec much more reasonable space. it's all good and refreshing. However would anyone describe to me why the hell CONCORD pays for killing rats in 0.0? Who the hell would even care about them infesting spaces which belongs to noone? Remove CONCORD payouts from killing NPC in 0.0 and it will be more reasonable space
Sure, that's an easy one: they're paying POD pilots to do the dirty work from them in areas they don't operate.
It's far more puzzling to me why they pay for killing rats in hi-sec when they could easily blow them to pieces themselves. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
469
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 14:05:00 -
[118] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. You reak of e-machismo and e-bravery. You must be, like, a dragon slayer in real life.
Down with the e-cowards! Am I doing it right? |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
890
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 14:07:00 -
[119] - Quote
I agree completely. The null sec sov holders need to be able to make more iskies, do metric crap-tons more industry on their own without all those onerous penalties, and anomalies should be spawning every minute.
Please do that, CCP. Hopefully it'll keep these losers out of high and low and shut them the hell up on the forums (since none of them, apparently, know how to post in CAOD). Fly Minmatar Air --- "Trust in the Rust!" |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5685
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 14:09:00 -
[120] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. You reak of e-machismo and e-bravery. You must be, like, a dragon slayer in real life. Down with the e-cowards! Am I doing it right?
Not bad, but not great. You should have also put in something about how you started playing in 2004 and, ideally, a complaint about the parlous state of solo PvP and a self-serving mock complaint about how so few people these days prefer not to fight in "blobs".
HTH MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
|
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
564
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 14:20:00 -
[121] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:There is crap loads to mine in wormholes that you then have to compress and take to Hi-sec to use for manufacturing as well as the need for Hi-sec alts so you can mine the Hi-sec ores as moving huge volumes out of a WH is depressing at best.
is there really? ask a wormholler how much they mine. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5687
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 14:39:00 -
[122] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Frying Doom wrote:There is crap loads to mine in wormholes that you then have to compress and take to Hi-sec to use for manufacturing as well as the need for Hi-sec alts so you can mine the Hi-sec ores as moving huge volumes out of a WH is depressing at best. is there really? ask a wormholler how much they mine.
Wormhole mining can be pretty profitable, I'm told, but it's all about the gas clouds rather than the ore these days.
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Rick Banning
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 15:04:00 -
[123] - Quote
Perhaps I am slightly late to the party, but couldn't a lot be solved by simply giving nullsec something unique? For example, you give nullsec a small group of items that can only be found there, and allow them to have an effect on high sec space. It could potentially be interesting to have such resources be able to be controlled by alliances or small corporations to a certain degree. The effect such resources could have could range from affecting high sec corporations and their stations or their production queues to something entirely new.
The way it is right now makes it seem like high sec has better resources that null is jelly of, so null needs something to make high sec jelly.
Personally, I have only played in high sec, but that is just because I am starting out. All I am trying to say is that there are other alternatives to just simply nerfing or buffing something. |
janzzen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 15:30:00 -
[124] - Quote
Rick Banning wrote:Perhaps I am slightly late to the party, but couldn't a lot be solved by simply giving nullsec something unique? For example, you give nullsec a small group of items that can only be found there, and allow them to have an effect on high sec space. It could potentially be interesting to have such resources be able to be controlled by alliances or small corporations to a certain degree. The effect such resources could have could range from affecting high sec corporations and their stations or their production queues to something entirely new.
The way it is right now makes it seem like high sec has better resources that null is jelly of, so null needs something to make high sec jelly.
Personally, I have only played in high sec, but that is just because I am starting out. All I am trying to say is that there are other alternatives to just simply nerfing or buffing something.
You mean something like technetium i guess?
I rest my case |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
330
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 15:40:00 -
[125] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:March rabbit wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Decrease war declaration costs, increase NPC corp tax and and make it apply to LP as well as bounties then limit highsec POSes to medium and small towers and I think you'd go a long way to making highsec much more reasonable space. it's all good and refreshing. However would anyone describe to me why the hell CONCORD pays for killing rats in 0.0? Who the hell would even care about them infesting spaces which belongs to noone? Remove CONCORD payouts from killing NPC in 0.0 and it will be more reasonable space It would be no skin off my nose. But unlike you my intention in posting was to suggest things that would make highsec less terrible not to make stupid rhetorical arguments to try and further the advantage that bad game design gives me personally. 1. you gave to high-sec status "terrible". Your job to prove it first. And only if you can succeed at it then we will speak about fixes.
2. I asked really interesting question. Outside of ISK source for 0.0 bears i don't see any reasons for these payouts.
|
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
330
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 15:42:00 -
[126] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:No, you just proved my point with an excellent example. That risk exists & should be compensated for. ok.
- Any numbers please? - Any reasons why it should be CCP's job to compensate risks PROVIDED BY PLAYERS? |
Miri Amatonur
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 16:16:00 -
[127] - Quote
Thomas Gore wrote: People who don't want to PvP will rather leave the game than be forced to PvP.
Yes, there once was a browser game called Neveron. It had a similar learning curve as EVE, industry, PvP and so on. One day the Devs thought that there should be more fights.
At first they introduced NPC attacks in large volume. This drove away the casual players.
At second they introduced forced wars. That drove away the industrialists and the last casual players.
TLDR: Force all to pvp and you can kiss EVE good bye. |
Some Rando
University of Caille Gallente Federation
370
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 16:20:00 -
[128] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. You reak of e-machismo and e-bravery. You must be, like, a dragon slayer in real life. Down with the e-cowards! Am I doing it right? Not bad, but not great. You should have also put in something about how you started playing in 2004 and, ideally, a complaint about the parlous state of solo PvP and a self-serving mock complaint about how so few people these days prefer not to fight in "blobs". Solo PvP is alive and well, I have no idea what you're on about. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5691
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 16:32:00 -
[129] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Malcanis wrote:No, you just proved my point with an excellent example. That risk exists & should be compensated for. ok. - Any numbers please? - Any reasons why it should be CCP's job to compensate risks PROVIDED BY PLAYERS?
I suppose that someone who knew about such things could query the database about how many stations have changed hands, butare you seriously disputing your own example?
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
64
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 16:47:00 -
[130] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:As I said elsewhere , many people play EVE to relax, manufacture stuff, hang out with friends, not to have an FC yelling at them for allegedly making the team lose a PVP match. If forced to PVP, many would rather leave. That's fine, live in high-sec if you think the rest of space is like that. The problem is that high-sec is just too good compared to the rest of.K-space. It needs to be nerfed to bring it in line. After that, a buff to null industry and maybe some slight improvements in null and low individual income would help balance the game, IMO.
High sec is not too good, high sec was much better a couple years ago and this didn't changed the fact many players took over null and did stuff over there. Problem is with time, several nerfs to high sec hurt also null sec by extent at the point it's now better to run poor isk reward missions than sites in null, you can thank all the mighty nerfs to anoms for a start.
You can nerf high sec as much as you want, this will not change a dime about null sec but make it so high sec is as uninteresting as null has become.
Many smart monkeys come up with comments about nef high sec yada ya, none, and I clearly say it: NONE of them comes with decent arguments what's going wrong with high sec and specially what's so wrong with null sec that makes high sec a better place to be despite all the nerfs across the time and many many players loss -alt accounts never loging in are not an argument, real players leaving the game is and CCP will never ever make public these numbers, so forget it.
Buff null sec to what it should be, make it interesting being there, rewarding enough to accept the risks involved, make it so more casual players have their place over there and want to fight for at their log in. But to do this, there's only one and a single manner to do it, it's to start putting to pieces "economic arguments" unable to adapt to the size of the problem or to the state where it is. Or simply make all the game pvp everywhere, get rid of concord and finish the game once and for all so a couple nerds with their dozen alts can have fun and everyone else just go somewhere else give their money for something worth of some fun. |
|
Sean Parisi
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
72
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 16:57:00 -
[131] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:As I said elsewhere , many people play EVE to relax, manufacture stuff, hang out with friends, not to have an FC yelling at them for allegedly making the team lose a PVP match. If forced to PVP, many would rather leave. That's fine, live in high-sec if you think the rest of space is like that. The problem is that high-sec is just too good compared to the rest of.K-space. It needs to be nerfed to bring it in line. After that, a buff to null industry and maybe some slight improvements in null and low individual income would help balance the game, IMO.
Nerf Isn't needed for Highsec, Null Sec needs a complete change from the ground up to make it more worthwhile for industry and smaller organizations. |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
332
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 17:05:00 -
[132] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:March rabbit wrote:Malcanis wrote:No, you just proved my point with an excellent example. That risk exists & should be compensated for. ok. - Any numbers please? - Any reasons why it should be CCP's job to compensate risks PROVIDED BY PLAYERS? I suppose that someone who knew about such things could query the database about how many stations have changed hands, butare you seriously disputing your own example? i have no access to databases but i can assist a little.
Ok. Number of stations changed hands is 5 (any number is good for theoretical discussions). So your suggested value for increasing rewards in 0.0 is ...?
And second question is still here. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2223
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 17:14:00 -
[133] - Quote
janzzen wrote:Rick Banning wrote:Perhaps I am slightly late to the party, but couldn't a lot be solved by simply giving nullsec something unique? For example, you give nullsec a small group of items that can only be found there, and allow them to have an effect on high sec space. It could potentially be interesting to have such resources be able to be controlled by alliances or small corporations to a certain degree. The effect such resources could have could range from affecting high sec corporations and their stations or their production queues to something entirely new.
The way it is right now makes it seem like high sec has better resources that null is jelly of, so null needs something to make high sec jelly.
Personally, I have only played in high sec, but that is just because I am starting out. All I am trying to say is that there are other alternatives to just simply nerfing or buffing something. You mean something like technetium i guess? I rest my case Tech moons are in lowsec as well. Also the vast majority of nullsec lacks tech moons. |
Sean Parisi
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
72
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 17:57:00 -
[134] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:janzzen wrote:Rick Banning wrote:Perhaps I am slightly late to the party, but couldn't a lot be solved by simply giving nullsec something unique? For example, you give nullsec a small group of items that can only be found there, and allow them to have an effect on high sec space. It could potentially be interesting to have such resources be able to be controlled by alliances or small corporations to a certain degree. The effect such resources could have could range from affecting high sec corporations and their stations or their production queues to something entirely new.
The way it is right now makes it seem like high sec has better resources that null is jelly of, so null needs something to make high sec jelly.
Personally, I have only played in high sec, but that is just because I am starting out. All I am trying to say is that there are other alternatives to just simply nerfing or buffing something. You mean something like technetium i guess? I rest my case Tech moons are in lowsec as well. Also the vast majority of nullsec lacks tech moons.
If they made it more hands on as opposed to determined solely by Null Sec power holders (CEO's, Directors, etc). Then yes the Unique resources will stimulate the economy, make them required in high volume and provide more infrastructure needed for domestic industry. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2223
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 18:03:00 -
[135] - Quote
Sean Parisi wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:janzzen wrote:Rick Banning wrote:Perhaps I am slightly late to the party, but couldn't a lot be solved by simply giving nullsec something unique? For example, you give nullsec a small group of items that can only be found there, and allow them to have an effect on high sec space. It could potentially be interesting to have such resources be able to be controlled by alliances or small corporations to a certain degree. The effect such resources could have could range from affecting high sec corporations and their stations or their production queues to something entirely new.
The way it is right now makes it seem like high sec has better resources that null is jelly of, so null needs something to make high sec jelly.
Personally, I have only played in high sec, but that is just because I am starting out. All I am trying to say is that there are other alternatives to just simply nerfing or buffing something. You mean something like technetium i guess? I rest my case Tech moons are in lowsec as well. Also the vast majority of nullsec lacks tech moons. If they made it more hands on as opposed to determined solely by Null Sec power holders (CEO's, Directors, etc). Then yes the Unique resources will stimulate the economy, make them required in high volume and provide more infrastructure needed for domestic industry. the solution to technetium, the unique nullsec resource that is also located in lowsec, is to tighten the bottleneck by requring it in 'higher volume' to build things |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5700
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 18:03:00 -
[136] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Malcanis wrote:March rabbit wrote:Malcanis wrote:No, you just proved my point with an excellent example. That risk exists & should be compensated for. ok. - Any numbers please? - Any reasons why it should be CCP's job to compensate risks PROVIDED BY PLAYERS? I suppose that someone who knew about such things could query the database about how many stations have changed hands, butare you seriously disputing your own example? i guess you missed the point of my question. I asked about your numbers for compensation for risks of bold part. Not for number of outposts people lose/capture every day.
You tell me. You built that station, and then you lost it. How much better would player built stations have to be than they are now for you to take a similar risk? MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
358
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 18:37:00 -
[137] - Quote
Nullsec's unique industry resource is supposed to be T2 production. Not necessarily the items used to manufacture it (moon goo), the end result should be ships and mods.
How much of this stuff do you see manufactured in nullsec and imported to empire? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5724
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 18:43:00 -
[138] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Nullsec's unique industry resource is supposed to be T2 production. Not necessarily the items used to manufacture it (moon goo), the end result should be ships and mods.
How much of this stuff do you see manufactured in nullsec and imported to empire?
Or even manufactured in nullsec and used there. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2257
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 18:47:00 -
[139] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:March rabbit wrote:Malcanis wrote:March rabbit wrote:Malcanis wrote:No, you just proved my point with an excellent example. That risk exists & should be compensated for. ok. - Any numbers please? - Any reasons why it should be CCP's job to compensate risks PROVIDED BY PLAYERS? I suppose that someone who knew about such things could query the database about how many stations have changed hands, butare you seriously disputing your own example? i guess you missed the point of my question. I asked about your numbers for compensation for risks of bold part. Not for number of outposts people lose/capture every day. You tell me. You built that station, and then you lost it. How much better would player built stations have to be than they are now for you to take a similar risk? Why can't CONCORD protect me~~~
Oh right, we rely on our friends rather than NPCs. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Sean Parisi
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
74
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 18:49:00 -
[140] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Sean Parisi wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:janzzen wrote:Rick Banning wrote:Perhaps I am slightly late to the party, but couldn't a lot be solved by simply giving nullsec something unique? For example, you give nullsec a small group of items that can only be found there, and allow them to have an effect on high sec space. It could potentially be interesting to have such resources be able to be controlled by alliances or small corporations to a certain degree. The effect such resources could have could range from affecting high sec corporations and their stations or their production queues to something entirely new.
The way it is right now makes it seem like high sec has better resources that null is jelly of, so null needs something to make high sec jelly.
Personally, I have only played in high sec, but that is just because I am starting out. All I am trying to say is that there are other alternatives to just simply nerfing or buffing something. You mean something like technetium i guess? I rest my case Tech moons are in lowsec as well. Also the vast majority of nullsec lacks tech moons. If they made it more hands on as opposed to determined solely by Null Sec power holders (CEO's, Directors, etc). Then yes the Unique resources will stimulate the economy, make them required in high volume and provide more infrastructure needed for domestic industry. the solution to technetium, the unique nullsec resource that is also located in lowsec, is to tighten the bottleneck by requring it in 'higher volume' to build things
You are reading what I said properly. I'm not even saying Technetium specifically, essentially you have resources available in both Low Sec and Null Sec that are needed for something in production (Tech 2, Tech3, Whatever) that require high volumes.
But the key is having it so it requires players to work together in order to harvest or obtain properly. As opposed to having one or two moon barons running one mine. Instead you have something like ring mining which encourages more players to occupy the space and use it in order to obtain this unique resource. You don't make it limited solely to specific systems either.
For example in order to create Tech 3 Items, we need players to work together within wormholes running sites. This encourages people to actually live and occupy their system. To bring more people on board in order to increase how much they can pull in.
|
|
Kery Nysell
Nysell Incorporated
25
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 19:13:00 -
[141] - Quote
I find it interesting to see null-bears complaining about the tens of billions they need to pay for their sov costs and all ...
Guess what ?
As a highsec carebear, I *CANNOT* make tens of billions ... and yes, I've also been playing since 2004/2005 ...
So, from my point of view, nullsec = isk printing machine ... that very well deserves all the hindrances, it's SO EASY to make a fortune down there, compared to the grind and market pvp of high sec.
Flame away, I've got my asbestos suit. |
Miri Amatonur
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 19:33:00 -
[142] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:(...) Oh right, we rely on our friends rather than NPCs.
Where we would come back to smaller is better as a possible future for 0.0. The mega alliances and super coalitions of today can't be the right way.
How much more interesting could 0.0 be if it would resamble the small scale counties of medival Europe. Lots of PvP. Fast changing politics. Sounds interesting.
But the current game mechanics would need an adjustment to support this. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2263
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 19:36:00 -
[143] - Quote
Kery Nysell wrote:I find it interesting to see null-bears complaining about the tens of billions they need to pay for their sov costs and all ...
Guess what ?
As a highsec carebear, I *CANNOT* make tens of billions ... and yes, I've also been playing since 2004/2005 ...
So, from my point of view, nullsec = isk printing machine ... that very well deserves all the hindrances, it's SO EASY to make a fortune down there, compared to the grind and market pvp of high sec.
Flame away, I've got my asbestos suit. Yeah we kinda have to work together to make those. No, you can't do this sort of thing solo.
Don't worry though, highsec is nice and easy and broken, you can rely on CONCORD and the like, just be happy ^___^ Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
957
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 19:37:00 -
[144] - Quote
Miri Amatonur wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:(...) Oh right, we rely on our friends rather than NPCs. Where we would come back to smaller is better as a possible future for 0.0. The mega alliances and super coalitions of today can't be the right way. How much more interesting could 0.0 be if it would resamble the small scale counties of medival Europe. Lots of PvP. Fast changing politics. Sounds interesting. But the current game mechanics would need an adjustment to support this.
Medieval Europe was actually relatively stable. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2263
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 19:40:00 -
[145] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Miri Amatonur wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:(...) Oh right, we rely on our friends rather than NPCs. Where we would come back to smaller is better as a possible future for 0.0. The mega alliances and super coalitions of today can't be the right way. How much more interesting could 0.0 be if it would resamble the small scale counties of medival Europe. Lots of PvP. Fast changing politics. Sounds interesting. But the current game mechanics would need an adjustment to support this. Medieval Europe was actually relatively stable. Then EVE will be different, and unstable ! Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
203
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 19:40:00 -
[146] - Quote
Kery Nysell wrote:I find it interesting to see null-bears complaining about the tens of billions they need to pay for their sov costs and all ...
Guess what ?
As a highsec carebear, I *CANNOT* make tens of billions ... and yes, I've also been playing since 2004/2005 ...
So, from my point of view, nullsec = isk printing machine ... that very well deserves all the hindrances, it's SO EASY to make a fortune down there, compared to the grind and market pvp of high sec.
Flame away, I've got my asbestos suit. First, if you can't make tens of billions in highsec (especially with that much sp/experience), you are terrible.
Second, it's not just about reward, it's about risk vs. reward. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2263
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 19:43:00 -
[147] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:Kery Nysell wrote:I find it interesting to see null-bears complaining about the tens of billions they need to pay for their sov costs and all ...
Guess what ?
As a highsec carebear, I *CANNOT* make tens of billions ... and yes, I've also been playing since 2004/2005 ...
So, from my point of view, nullsec = isk printing machine ... that very well deserves all the hindrances, it's SO EASY to make a fortune down there, compared to the grind and market pvp of high sec.
Flame away, I've got my asbestos suit. First, if you can't make tens of billions in highsec (especially with that much sp/experience), you are terrible. Second, it's not just about reward, it's about risk vs. reward. Lies, with intel channels, blue lists and local nullsec has no risk, certainly not if your neighbor is a en evil blobbing supercapital blobbing evil Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Miri Amatonur
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 19:43:00 -
[148] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote: Medieval Europe was actually relatively stable.
But had a ton of conflicts going on. Most small scale (count vs count) and some major stuff like Hundred Years' War, crusades and so on. |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
969
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 19:46:00 -
[149] - Quote
Miri Amatonur wrote:masternerdguy wrote: Medieval Europe was actually relatively stable.
But had a ton of conflicts going on. Most small scale (count vs count) and some major stuff like Hundred Years' War, crusades and so on.
Yes, but in EVE we mainly have lots of small scale conflicts and a big war every now and then, but things are pretty stable.
So I'd argue we're already where you think you want us to go. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2279
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 19:48:00 -
[150] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Miri Amatonur wrote:masternerdguy wrote: Medieval Europe was actually relatively stable.
But had a ton of conflicts going on. Most small scale (count vs count) and some major stuff like Hundred Years' War, crusades and so on. Yes, but in EVE we mainly have lots of small scale conflicts and a big war every now and then, but things are pretty stable. So I'd argue we're already where you think you want us to go. We also burn down whole regions, I mean you don't see the south of europe all burning and being blued that frequently, I hope. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
|
Kery Nysell
Nysell Incorporated
26
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 20:03:00 -
[151] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote: First, if you can't make tens of billions in highsec (especially with that much sp/experience), you are terrible.
Second, it's not just about reward, it's about risk vs. reward.
Never said I was the best player there is, but "tens of billions" is still out of my league ... half a billion per month for me alone is more reasonnable ...
But since I'm "terrible", care to share your wisdom, O Great One ?.? |
Miri Amatonur
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 20:15:00 -
[152] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote: Yes, but in EVE we mainly have lots of small scale conflicts and a big war every now and then, but things are pretty stable.
So I'd argue we're already where you think you want us to go.
In the sense of war and fights yes we might always been there.
It's in the sense of counties. A county = a small alliance today in EVE. If you'll argue with renters of the same hegemonial power. They lag feuds medival counties had even within one kingdom.
Today we have a few large alliances and coalitions that claim most of the space. |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
979
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 20:17:00 -
[153] - Quote
Miri Amatonur wrote:masternerdguy wrote: Yes, but in EVE we mainly have lots of small scale conflicts and a big war every now and then, but things are pretty stable.
So I'd argue we're already where you think you want us to go.
In the sense of war and fights yes we might always been there. It's in the sense of counties. A county = a small alliance today in EVE. If you'll argue with renters of the same hegemonial power. They lag feuds medival counties had even within one kingdom.
The United States of America, Russian Federation, People's Republic of China, those are also countries and are also quite large and influential. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2286
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 20:21:00 -
[154] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Miri Amatonur wrote:masternerdguy wrote: Yes, but in EVE we mainly have lots of small scale conflicts and a big war every now and then, but things are pretty stable.
So I'd argue we're already where you think you want us to go.
In the sense of war and fights yes we might always been there. It's in the sense of counties. A county = a small alliance today in EVE. If you'll argue with renters of the same hegemonial power. They lag feuds medival counties had even within one kingdom. The United States of America, Russian Federation, People's Republic of China, those are also countries and are also quite large and influential. Which of those has magical police? I think it's best to live there. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Miri Amatonur
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 20:25:00 -
[155] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote: The United States of America, Russian Federation, People's Republic of China, those are also countries and are also quite large and influential.
Now you switch to the present world while i was talking about a world system 800 years ago.
The current game mechanics allow the super corporations, alliances by count of members and mega coalitions by blue lists.
That mechanics are changed frequently by CCP. Personally i would prefer the smaller is better approach over the current system. |
Miri Amatonur
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 20:26:00 -
[156] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: Which of those has magical police? I think it's best to live there.
I'd say China. But i doubt you want to live there.
|
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
979
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 20:27:00 -
[157] - Quote
Miri Amatonur wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Which of those has magical police? I think it's best to live there.
I'd say China. But i doubt you want to live there.
I've met a lot of people from China they seem ok to me. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2286
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 20:30:00 -
[158] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Miri Amatonur wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Which of those has magical police? I think it's best to live there.
I'd say China. But i doubt you want to live there. I've met a lot of people from China they seem ok to me. They have police that can save you within 15 seconds? Interesting. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
1091
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 20:38:00 -
[159] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:They have police that can save you within 15 seconds? Interesting.
Who said anything about saving? They kill people that fast, and send the bill for the bullet to the family, which could be considered a killmail. "The nice thing about quotes is that they give us a nodding acquaintance with the originator which is often socially impressive." ~Kenneth Williams |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1948
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 21:01:00 -
[160] - Quote
Kery Nysell wrote:As a highsec carebear, I *CANNOT* make tens of billions ... and yes, I've also been playing since 2004/2005 ...
So, from my point of view, nullsec = isk printing machine ... that very well deserves all the hindrances, it's SO EASY to make a fortune down there, compared to the grind and market pvp of high sec
I'm afraid you are mistaken, about a great many things. I tried the various income things in 0.0 like exploration, belt ratting, anomaly farming, got some plasma planets going and did alright. Made a few hundred million over a period of months.
So I bought a perfect station trader that is in Jita 4-4 and never undocks.
Now I make billions
Weekly
By just changing and creating some buys and sells each day, talk about printing isk . |
|
destiny2
81
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 21:49:00 -
[161] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Malcanis wrote:destiny2 wrote:If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of? You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop. If only our 20bil a pop stations were totally invulnerable like their free ones which they get multiple of in some systems.
they are infact invul as they cant be destroyed, unless its found while being anchored and filled 2 hours before downtime. but look at it this way, theirs some alliances in this game that have no tech moons and they can still survive.
But since highsec cant allow capitals how many here would actually spend 3-5 hours shooting a highsec station with a maelstrom fleet, i know i wouldnt.
and also their is some null areas that have pre built stations already that players didnt have to spend isk for nor that can be destroyed or flipped. seen a few in tenal/venal.Delve,seen a couple in goons home land. |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
371
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 21:52:00 -
[162] - Quote
No More Heroes wrote:Kery Nysell wrote:As a highsec carebear, I *CANNOT* make tens of billions ... and yes, I've also been playing since 2004/2005 ...
So, from my point of view, nullsec = isk printing machine ... that very well deserves all the hindrances, it's SO EASY to make a fortune down there, compared to the grind and market pvp of high sec I'm afraid you are mistaken, about a great many things. I tried the various income things in 0.0 like exploration, belt ratting, anomaly farming, got some plasma planets going and did alright. Made a few hundred million over a period of months. So I bought a perfect station trader that is in Jita 4-4 and never undocks. Now I make billions Weekly By just changing and creating some buys and sells each day, talk about printing isk
Obviousy Thats because theres thousands of players in Jita practically all day long, you could'nt do that in Perimeter even though it's still hisec. Get 2000 people into a null sec hub, you'll make much more, trick is to make null sec more attractive for players than it is, without ruining hisec, Jita actually keeps the Eve economy quite stable, mess with the stability of the economy and you get a sick economy. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
1647
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 21:56:00 -
[163] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Null is Broken because Hisec working as intended. FTFY...
|
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
371
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 21:59:00 -
[164] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Null is Broken because Hisec working as intended. FTFY...
Wreck the hisec economy, and a null sec economic depression will follow, thats a given. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
1647
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 22:04:00 -
[165] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Gogela wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Null is Broken because Hisec working as intended. FTFY... Wreck the hisec economy, and a null sec economic depression will follow, thats a given. Sometimes I like to just make up silly arguments and attribute them to non-specific comments so it looks like we are actually having a conversation, which in turn implies my position has some merit to it.
|
Kery Nysell
Nysell Incorporated
26
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 22:15:00 -
[166] - Quote
No More Heroes wrote:I'm afraid you are mistaken, about a great many things. I tried the various income things in 0.0 like exploration, belt ratting, anomaly farming, got some plasma planets going and did alright. Made a few hundred million over a period of months. So I bought a perfect station trader that is in Jita 4-4 and never undocks. Now I make billions Weekly By just changing and creating some buys and sells each day, talk about printing isk
So the trick is AFK trading in Jita ... niiiiiiiice ... and do you actually play the game, instead of number-crunching with a spreadsheet ?
I do missions, I mine, I build things, I try to sell them for a profit without gouging newbies, I'm starting to dabble in exploration, I *gasp* talk in Local and make friends, I have a couple of planets producing things I might need for a (future) research POS, in short, even in my limited high sec life, I'm very active ... and all that as a casual player with maybe a couple of hours per day of 'game time'.
But I don't enjoy direct player versus player combat, I find games like Unreal or Quake soooooo much better for that ... for me a MMORPG (Many Men Online Role Playing Girls, heh) is about co-operation and interaction, but those CAN (and should) be limited if I'm in a foul mood ... let's be honest here, no-one, even my closest friends, want to hear/read me ranting about my own personnal real life problems ...
Yes, I could try to join a 0.0 Alliance (I have too many fond memories with my own corp to disband it) and try the nullbear life, but from what I see/read, it's all about obeying orders and forming blobs ... and frankly, waiting hours for maybe finding 15 minutes of mashing F1 to kill other players is a waste of my limited playing time.
Thanks for the tip about the Jita trading tough, I might invest time in that one day. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
2582
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 22:49:00 -
[167] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Malcanis wrote:destiny2 wrote:If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of? You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop. If only our 20bil a pop stations were totally invulnerable like their free ones which they get multiple of in some systems. And when do those evil high sec players have the ability to decide who docks at all these glorious stations? Last I checked anyone, including null players can freely dock there and take advantage of all the services said stations provides.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
The CandyGirl
the unified Negative Ten.
22
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 23:07:00 -
[168] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:All these "Nerf hisec" threads are just ludicrous, and All these "Null is broken" threads are enlightening.
If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left, mining in losec?....totally useless.
Living in Null sec? Practically every thread talking about Null sec speaks about how pointless it is to live there.
It is Null sec that needs to be Buffed somehow, cos if you nerf the daylights outta High sec, people will have little choice but to
leave, and we'll get the same lousy player numbers as during the last unending Hulkaggeddon before the Mining Barge Buff.
I agree with you..... but then i dont.
High low and null all need to be rebalanced.
Some aspects of high need to be hit with the nerf bat repediatly( incursions, lvl4s, afk anything)
Low needs something that no other zone has that will make people want to brave the pirates
Null needs to be made less boring and sov fixed.
POSes need to be rebalanced so doing industry from them is better than at high sec stations.
I can go on but these are the main issues that i have noticed |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
1780
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 23:41:00 -
[169] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Gogela wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Null is Broken because Hisec working as intended. FTFY... Wreck the hisec economy, and a null sec economic depression will follow, thats a given. It's the other way around actually. The only reason why the wheel of Eve's economy is still turning is because people keep blowing each other up. Nullsec provides that on a massive scale. Go figure. How to : Playing Eve 100% Risk and Conflict FREE! |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
685
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 23:44:00 -
[170] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game.
Lived in Hi, Low, Null and currently WH resident - basically left Null because I had seen enough ASCII art.....
Interdict Hi-Sec - it's the only way to be sure... |
|
Katherine Jasmone
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 23:50:00 -
[171] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game.
Pardon if this is [tl;dr]
A certain misnomer or definition in regards to what actually equals PvP in this game. Bear with me since I feel most nullbears tend to think of PvP as straight 1v1 or blob-fest or hi-sec chicken ganks. And most carebears think of PvP as something that is beyond their want or need of the game. The style of gameplay (hardcore vs social) aspects of the game differ greatly in taste, scope, frequency and escalation and are reflected similarly in how peoples opinions differ greatly.
The sandbox of PvP, or definition of it in this game goes far beyond that of merely ship vs ship, but rather the content is driven by the creativity and productivity of players on many levels and modes of play. PvP isn't merely outgunning or otherwise shooting stuff, it is as much scamming and corpthieving (GHSC any one?) as it is allocating resources and outproducing, outselling and playing the market versus other players.
My own opinion of the game is that ultimately PLEX have ruined the backend of isk-making (through industry, research, mining and exploration) that drives the economy/market in terms of ships and modules ultimately used for PvP. You can simply buy yourself wealth or PvP with real world money and thus debase the true nature of the game. Not all PvP players can afford a live-by-the-PLEX-die-by-the-PLEX lifestyle.
Baseline drivers of people wanting to change something (i.e. game mechanics) to their advantage are usually greed and avarice, their chosen line of play is not providing with enough wealth (or targets) and thus they usually suffer butthurt because they with envious eyes look at others achieving wealth through hard work and due diligence. So it is in the real world, the lazy want what the hard workers want. The lazy want pleasure and the hard working want dividend. t is the balance of things, the nature of EVE. [/tl:dr]
The short version:
To PvP nullbears I say: STFU, MTFU and look at the game from a perspective of balance. Your chosen profession is not what everyone else wants. People want different things from the sandbox and not necessarily the singular way of life that you lead.
To hi-sec carebears I say: You don't know how well you have it. Aspects of this game shelter you from the receiving end of some serious gangbang action.
Buff/nerf null-sec: Make industry and mining more viable in low and null. Make sovereignty harder to attain and keep in low and null. Remove alliances so that corps actually matter rather than the blob fest of alliances "owning" so much real estate in null.
Yes , I am an alt.-á |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2455
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 00:08:00 -
[172] - Quote
Katherine Jasmone wrote: STFU, MTFU and look at the game from a perspective of balance. Yeah, EVE Online is reallu unbalanced as it is.
This must continue in order to keep to a consistent trend. Never nerf highsec ~~ Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Sir Diablos
The Plebian Republic
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 00:22:00 -
[173] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game.
Indeed, because it can't be a sandbox unless it has no sand in it, hmmm? The devil is in the details... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2455
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 00:34:00 -
[174] - Quote
Sir Diablos wrote:Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. Indeed, because it can't be a sandbox unless it has no sand in it, hmmm? Yep, CONCORD will control our lives. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Katherine Jasmone
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 00:35:00 -
[175] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Katherine Jasmone wrote: STFU, MTFU and look at the game from a perspective of balance. Yeah, EVE Online is reallu unbalanced as it is. This must continue in order to keep to a consistent trend. Never nerf highsec ~~
Nope, highsec has its definite imbalances (just in the direction of catering to carebears, macroers and afkers.) Just make it a stepping stone - and in some regard a pseudo-haven while moving on to greater things.
Hi-sec should in someways provide any area for individuals and corps willing to stage into lo and null to gather enough resources: capitol, labor and other resources. Current null mechanics, industry, politics and PvP-blob mentality are barriers to entry into such areas for most if they never can muster the aforementioned resources to do so.
A thought for perhaps the F&I section - make asteroid belts "hidden" and force those who thrive on this to actually put in the effort to actually find their ore (like miners in the old days who had to collect soil and rock samples) instead of rinse and repeat the method of mining today. Similarly that those who would gank/pirate/ransom/grief would too have to work for their living. Not simply warp-to, ctrl and f1 (mash keys randomly).
But then again why should I agree with an individual in a corp that shelters/lives in an alliance that is in of itself an imbalance due to the blob mentality. When things (mechanics of null, lo or hi and some regards alliances) grow to the point of having their own inertia and this influence can be felt in a detrimental way then the game is in of itself imbalanced.
Yes , I am an alt.-á |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
215
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 01:19:00 -
[176] - Quote
In all seriousness, sitting in Jita and playing with orders is both ridiculously fun and profitable.
I feel bad for all you droolies who are like "durr numbers, i go shoot red crosses and spacerocks instead". Pathetic. |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1869
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 01:30:00 -
[177] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:And when do those evil high sec players have the ability to decide who docks at all these glorious stations? Last I checked anyone, including null players can freely dock there and take advantage of all the services said stations provides. That's what we already do, obviously. You must think we're awfully stupid. The point is, nobody has to do anything for that capability, which is idiotic, seeing as to have any capability in null we have to spend hundreds of billions of isk on outposts, sov, ihubs, etc. and still not come anywhere close to what you get for free in highsec.
There's quite obviously a problem here, and you're willfully dismissing it. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2455
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 01:36:00 -
[178] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:And when do those evil high sec players have the ability to decide who docks at all these glorious stations? Last I checked anyone, including null players can freely dock there and take advantage of all the services said stations provides. That's what we already do, obviously. You must think we're awfully stupid. The point is, nobody has to do anything for that capability, which is idiotic, seeing as to have any capability in null we have to spend hundreds of billions of isk on outposts, sov, ihubs, etc. and still not come anywhere close to what you get for free in highsec. There's quite obviously a problem here, and you're willfully dismissing it. Highsec is the way of the future, stop fighting it. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1869
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 01:40:00 -
[179] - Quote
Katherine Jasmone wrote:Nope, highsec has its definite imbalances (just in the direction of catering to carebears, macroers and afkers.) Just make it a stepping stone - and in some regard a pseudo-haven while moving on to greater things. Can't make things better than perfect without them being horribly broken. Highsec needs to be nerfed, there's no way around it and it's not even debatable. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 02:07:00 -
[180] - Quote
Sometimes in this discussions I feel like I'm reading the notes from a person in an insane asylum.
TL;DR
EVE is already hardwired with difficulty levels, they are Hard, Harsh, and Deadly. The new players already start on Hard difficulty, and most of the hardcore crowd want to force them to step up because "they don't have enough fresh meat to shoot at". How about you recruit new players for that, and let the more casual crowd explore the universe anyway they want.
---
* First off, Its just a GAME. Yea, that's really hard to comprehend for a lot of EVE players. One day, maybe all the devs will be caught in a meteorite acident, or a disgruntled ex employee will wipe the database and backups, or maybe they'll go bankrupt because of a screwup somewhere, and then, all your shiny spaceships and billion SP toons will be GONE.
* Since it states clearly everywhere that it's a "Sandbox" it means that some players will just take a look around, decide on what to settle on for X months and just do that. If They decide it's hisec, they will stay there regardless of how many nerfs you apply, if it's low/null they will join a corp and wonder around with them, uncaring of the extra difficulty because they want the challenge. The point of game for people is to find a confort zone, they will stay there untle THEY are ready.
* Every time a new patch comes out that changes mechanics, there's VERY LARGE corps that will VERY QUICKLY find a way to exploit them in some way, something that individual players are not able to do before CCP eventually goes "oh noes!" and "fixes" it. They make tons of money, and for the little players, the game just gets harder.
* It's pointless to say to carebears to "HTFU it's a PvP game" you don't get the right to start playing eve simply to quench your thirst for blood on easy prey, that why hisec protection exists in the first place, you want to kill at will, roam lowsec with the other piranhas, that's basically what it's design intention is, same way that null is where all the politics and blob battles happen as people try to push each other around. Different play styles for different people, that's what's cool about wormholes, yet another life choice available.
* If you can't find enough people to kill in low/null it's not because the carebears aren't been pushed there, most of them probably don't even want anything to do with it, and if you did force them, you'd just have less of them. If there is a lack of targets it's just because there's not enough of the PvP minded people around, these arguments are like trying to force someone that just want to be a logi pilot to do combat. Maybe he'd just rather not play, if his options of play style get taken away.
* You can nerf/boost high/low/null all you want. A new balance will just appear, and if it does not, and the game instead breaks down, it was never a proper sandbox to start with.
|
|
Elrich Kouvo
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 02:23:00 -
[181] - Quote
Katherine Jasmone wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Katherine Jasmone wrote: STFU, MTFU and look at the game from a perspective of balance. Yeah, EVE Online is reallu unbalanced as it is. This must continue in order to keep to a consistent trend. Never nerf highsec ~~ Nope, highsec has its definite imbalances (just in the direction of catering to carebears, macroers and afkers.) Just make it a stepping stone - and in some regard a pseudo-haven while moving on to greater things. Hi-sec should in someways provide any area for individuals and corps willing to stage into lo and null to gather enough resources: capitol, labor and other resources. Current null mechanics, industry, politics and PvP-blob mentality are barriers to entry into such areas for most if they never can muster the aforementioned resources to do so. A thought for perhaps the F&I section - make asteroid belts "hidden" and force those who thrive on this to actually put in the effort to actually find their ore (like miners in the old days who had to collect soil and rock samples) instead of rinse and repeat the method of mining today. Similarly that those who would gank/pirate/ransom/grief would too have to work for their living. Not simply warp-to, ctrl and f1 (mash keys randomly). But then again why should I agree with an individual in a corp that shelters/lives in an alliance that is in of itself an imbalance due to the blob mentality. When things (mechanics of null, lo or hi and some regards alliances) grow to the point of having their own inertia and this influence can be felt in a detrimental way then the game is in of itself imbalanced. I was with ya till you compared mining on earth to mining in internet space ships. Soil samples in space? WTF? but yeah they could add more hidden belts to low and null, and they could buff low and null to be more rewarding. Yes High sec corps need to "muster" resources to venture into low/null, which is why they should get rid of war decs. |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
1011
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 02:30:00 -
[182] - Quote
I think hi sec needs to be more like real world western democracies where most people are wage slaves. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
491
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 02:35:00 -
[183] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:I think hi sec needs to be more like real world western democracies where most people are wage slaves. So... no real change then? |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
1011
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 02:36:00 -
[184] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:masternerdguy wrote:I think hi sec needs to be more like real world western democracies where most people are wage slaves. So... no real change then?
No, I think hi seccers should have to file a realistic income tax with realistic tax forms. Also there needs to be rent paid to live in hi sec. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
491
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 02:37:00 -
[185] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:masternerdguy wrote:I think hi sec needs to be more like real world western democracies where most people are wage slaves. So... no real change then? No, I think hi seccers should have to file a realistic income tax with realistic tax forms. Also there needs to be rent paid to live in hi sec. Ah, so you just hate people and want the game to reflect that. Gotcha. |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
1011
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 02:39:00 -
[186] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:masternerdguy wrote:I think hi sec needs to be more like real world western democracies where most people are wage slaves. So... no real change then? No, I think hi seccers should have to file a realistic income tax with realistic tax forms. Also there needs to be rent paid to live in hi sec. Ah, so you just hate people and want the game to reflect that. Gotcha.
They could pay a corporate tax to all the stations they keep stuff in. Then we can add on a faction tax so you have to pay the empire you live in. Finally a concord tax.
Maybe we can add a system where you can cheat on your taxes at the risk of a sec status penalty if discovered. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
206
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 02:43:00 -
[187] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:masternerdguy wrote:I think hi sec needs to be more like real world western democracies where most people are wage slaves. So... no real change then? No, I think hi seccers should have to file a realistic income tax with realistic tax forms. Also there needs to be rent paid to live in hi sec.
whats more realistic than evading tax? its rl feature
if you want me to pay the rent give me some real estate,like corp office but for players to walk in and sjit so i can admire my collection of dancers and garage - it totaly should be a crib,maybe even on a planet ,id pay a rent for that
real estate market is what this game needs,it would be awesome to have house on a lava planet etc. |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1869
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 02:44:00 -
[188] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:masternerdguy wrote:I think hi sec needs to be more like real world western democracies where most people are wage slaves. So... no real change then? No, I think hi seccers should have to file a realistic income tax with realistic tax forms. Also there needs to be rent paid to live in hi sec. Ah, so you just hate people and want the game to reflect that. Gotcha. Ahhh, more entitlement. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 02:45:00 -
[189] - Quote
What's wrong with just adding more activities to high/low/null, and only having some of those cross over. We already have game content that can only be done with expensive ships and high SP like Incursions, why not add more stuff into the mix?
Wouldn't that be a carrot to get people to move around more? Why do people always want to use the stick to motivate players to do stuff? |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5449
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 02:47:00 -
[190] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:What's wrong with just adding more activities to high/low/null, and only having some of those cross over. We already have game content that can only be done with expensive ships and high SP like Incursions, why not add more stuff into the mix?
Wouldn't that be a carrot to get people to move around more? Why do people always want to use the stick to motivate players to do stuff?
The stick is more fun for us "Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff-á |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
491
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 02:51:00 -
[191] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:masternerdguy wrote:I think hi sec needs to be more like real world western democracies where most people are wage slaves. So... no real change then? No, I think hi seccers should have to file a realistic income tax with realistic tax forms. Also there needs to be rent paid to live in hi sec. Ah, so you just hate people and want the game to reflect that. Gotcha. Ahhh, more entitlement. You see, there is a point where accusations of entitlement lose their bite. For me it's somewhere around the place where not liking a proposal which is designed to introduce bad gameplay for an area you don't like is "entitlement." You see a need for greater income disparity between sec statuses? Fine, really does make sense. Seriously. Want to turn an area of the game into a punishment? Not so much. Do you have an actual argument as to why it's a good thing or is that just an old fallback? |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1869
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 02:54:00 -
[192] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:You see, there is a point where accusations of entitlement lose their bite. For me it's somewhere around the place where not liking a proposal which is designed to introduce bad gameplay for an area you don't like is "entitlement." You see a need for greater income disparity between sec statuses? Fine, really does make sense. Seriously. Want to turn an area of the game into a punishment? Not so much. Do you have an actual argument as to why it's a good thing or is that just an old fallback? Why should you get the best stuff for free? Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
491
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 02:56:00 -
[193] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:You see, there is a point where accusations of entitlement lose their bite. For me it's somewhere around the place where not liking a proposal which is designed to introduce bad gameplay for an area you don't like is "entitlement." You see a need for greater income disparity between sec statuses? Fine, really does make sense. Seriously. Want to turn an area of the game into a punishment? Not so much. Do you have an actual argument as to why it's a good thing or is that just an old fallback? Why should you get the best stuff for free? How would greater income disparity in trade be for free? |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1869
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 03:01:00 -
[194] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:You see, there is a point where accusations of entitlement lose their bite. For me it's somewhere around the place where not liking a proposal which is designed to introduce bad gameplay for an area you don't like is "entitlement." You see a need for greater income disparity between sec statuses? Fine, really does make sense. Seriously. Want to turn an area of the game into a punishment? Not so much. Do you have an actual argument as to why it's a good thing or is that just an old fallback? Why should you get the best stuff for free? How would greater income disparity in trade be for free? I'm referring to the fact that you can get 100% refining in highsec for nothing other than doing some missions and training a few skills, not to mention you have TONS more manufacturing slots.
It's only fair that you'd have to pay something to use such services. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
105
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 03:02:00 -
[195] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:You and most hi-seccers seem to think sov null is just Turn up, Plant flag, Collect free Technetium & Anomalies. . You're missing the titanic amount of ISK (amd effort) that's required to gain, control, upgrade and maintain space. And that's not even including what it costs to fight for it. Just to claim it costs many billions per region, and then more billions per month to keep it.
Oh no, there is dookey in your end of the sandbox! Shall you hold your nose and scoop it out, or just go and poop on the other side to make it match? Decisions, decisions. Oh wait, we're dealing with the vast web of insecurities & egomania of modern internet culture, so the answer is obvious: More poop for everyone.
"There is no such thing as justice. There is only the desire to see the pain spread around equally." - Solomon Short EvE Forum Bingo |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1869
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 03:04:00 -
[196] - Quote
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:Malcanis wrote:You and most hi-seccers seem to think sov null is just Turn up, Plant flag, Collect free Technetium & Anomalies. . You're missing the titanic amount of ISK (amd effort) that's required to gain, control, upgrade and maintain space. And that's not even including what it costs to fight for it. Just to claim it costs many billions per region, and then more billions per month to keep it. Oh no, there is dookey in your end of the sandbox! Shall you hold your nose and scoop it out, or just go and poop on the other side to make it match? Decisions, decisions. Oh wait, we're dealing with the vast web insecurities & egomania of modern internet culture, so the answer is obvious: More poop for everyone. "There is no such thing as justice. There is only the desire to see the pain spread around equally." - Solomon Short Yeah, let's respond to sensible arguments with childishness and irrelevant quotes! Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
491
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 03:04:00 -
[197] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:You see, there is a point where accusations of entitlement lose their bite. For me it's somewhere around the place where not liking a proposal which is designed to introduce bad gameplay for an area you don't like is "entitlement." You see a need for greater income disparity between sec statuses? Fine, really does make sense. Seriously. Want to turn an area of the game into a punishment? Not so much. Do you have an actual argument as to why it's a good thing or is that just an old fallback? Why should you get the best stuff for free? How would greater income disparity in trade be for free? I'm referring to the fact that you can get 100% refining in highsec for nothing other than doing some missions and training a few skills, not to mention you have TONS more manufacturing slots. It's only fair that you'd have to pay something to use such services. I've argued that this shouldn't be the case, so I won't argue in favor of a situation I don't believe is beneficial nor would I like to see it's correction replaced with excess tedium. |
Elrich Kouvo
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 03:07:00 -
[198] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:masternerdguy wrote:I think hi sec needs to be more like real world western democracies where most people are wage slaves. So... no real change then? No, I think hi seccers should have to file a realistic income tax with realistic tax forms. Also there needs to be rent paid to live in hi sec. You sir need to go play turbo tax then and not EVE Online. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2455
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 03:24:00 -
[199] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:What's wrong with just adding more activities to high/low/null, and only having some of those cross over. We already have game content that can only be done with expensive ships and high SP like Incursions, why not add more stuff into the mix?
Wouldn't that be a carrot to get people to move around more? Why do people always want to use the stick to motivate players to do stuff? The stick is more fun for us The tears, eh... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
105
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 04:12:00 -
[200] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Yeah, let's respond to sensible arguments with childishness and irrelevant quotes!
The quote was quite relevant, as it was a clear indication of the psychological dysfunction of the common whining nullbear. Childishness is simply my way of lowering the bar of conversation down to their own level of intellect for greater ease of comprehension. Did you enjoy it, or should I go back to being superciliously brusque?
EvE Forum Bingo |
|
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
371
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 05:33:00 -
[201] - Quote
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:Malcanis wrote:You and most hi-seccers seem to think sov null is just Turn up, Plant flag, Collect free Technetium & Anomalies. . You're missing the titanic amount of ISK (amd effort) that's required to gain, control, upgrade and maintain space. And that's not even including what it costs to fight for it. Just to claim it costs many billions per region, and then more billions per month to keep it. Oh no, there is dookey in your end of the sandbox! Shall you hold your nose and scoop it out, or just go and poop on the other side to make it match? Decisions, decisions. Oh wait, we're dealing with the vast web of insecurities & egomania of modern internet culture, so the answer is obvious: More poop for everyone. "There is no such thing as justice. There is only the desire to see the pain spread around equally." - Solomon Short
There is a lot of truth here, jealousy can get the better of people, so instead of doing something about improving their own circumstance, some just want every one to share their problems, that doesn't bode well for progress in Eve. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1875
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 05:46:00 -
[202] - Quote
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Yeah, let's respond to sensible arguments with childishness and irrelevant quotes! The quote was quite relevant, as it was a clear indication of the psychological dysfunction of the common whining nullbear. Childishness is simply my way of lowering the bar of conversation down to their own level of intellect for greater ease of comprehension. Did you enjoy it, or should I go back to being superciliously brusque? Your little argument boiled down to "nullsec sucks, don't nerf highsec, just buff nullsec instead" which ignores how that's not actually possible without breaking the game completely.
Don't think we want to make highsec suck for industry as a means of balance in itself. Highsec needs to be nerfed, but it doesn't need to suck. Not only that, but if we were to nerf highsec without buffing anywhere else that would hurt nullsec alliances as well because currently highsec is where most of our ships and modules are built. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 06:07:00 -
[203] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:You see, there is a point where accusations of entitlement lose their bite. For me it's somewhere around the place where not liking a proposal which is designed to introduce bad gameplay for an area you don't like is "entitlement." You see a need for greater income disparity between sec statuses? Fine, really does make sense. Seriously. Want to turn an area of the game into a punishment? Not so much. Do you have an actual argument as to why it's a good thing or is that just an old fallback? Why should you get the best stuff for free? How would greater income disparity in trade be for free? I'm referring to the fact that you can get 100% refining in highsec for nothing other than doing some missions and training a few skills, not to mention you have TONS more manufacturing slots. It's only fair that you'd have to pay something to use such services.
If you make it harder for people in hisec, you wont get more people moving to low/null, you will just see people roam less in low/null because it takes them longer to make ships. If it was EASIER to make isk and stuff in hisec, I'd be roaming around looking for fights all the time, lose said ships, rinse and repeat.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2496
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 06:07:00 -
[204] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Yeah, let's respond to sensible arguments with childishness and irrelevant quotes! The quote was quite relevant, as it was a clear indication of the psychological dysfunction of the common whining nullbear. Childishness is simply my way of lowering the bar of conversation down to their own level of intellect for greater ease of comprehension. Did you enjoy it, or should I go back to being superciliously brusque? Your little argument boiled down to "nullsec sucks, don't nerf highsec, just buff nullsec instead" which ignores how that's not actually possible without breaking the game completely. Don't think we want to make highsec suck for industry as a means of balance in itself. Highsec needs to be nerfed, but it doesn't need to suck. Not only that, but if we were to nerf highsec without buffing anywhere else that would hurt nullsec alliances as well because currently highsec is where most of our ships and modules are built. You musn't take away even 1% of their refining in highsec. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1892
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 06:08:00 -
[205] - Quote
It can't be better than perfect. Sorry. I don't know how many times I need to say it before you'll understand. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2496
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 06:11:00 -
[206] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It can't be better than perfect. Sorry. I don't know how many times I need to say it before you'll understand. This is general discussion, you'd need a lot more than just a few dozen,.. hundred of posts. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
371
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 06:13:00 -
[207] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:You see, there is a point where accusations of entitlement lose their bite. For me it's somewhere around the place where not liking a proposal which is designed to introduce bad gameplay for an area you don't like is "entitlement." You see a need for greater income disparity between sec statuses? Fine, really does make sense. Seriously. Want to turn an area of the game into a punishment? Not so much. Do you have an actual argument as to why it's a good thing or is that just an old fallback? Why should you get the best stuff for free? How would greater income disparity in trade be for free? I'm referring to the fact that you can get 100% refining in highsec for nothing other than doing some missions and training a few skills, not to mention you have TONS more manufacturing slots. It's only fair that you'd have to pay something to use such services. If you make it harder for people in hisec, you wont get more people moving to low/null, you will just see people roam less in low/null because it takes them longer to make ships. If it was EASIER to make isk and stuff in hisec, I'd be roaming around looking for fights all the time, lose said ships, rinse and repeat.
I agree with this, atm prices are stable, economy going along nicely, nerf hisec and even pirates will start thinking twice before they try to fight with a standard frigate that cost 40 million in jita. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2496
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 06:15:00 -
[208] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:RAGE QU1T wrote:Confirming, no one likes EMO raging FC's spamming alliance crying for more Logi's, furthermore people are tired of CTA online So don't join an alliance that demands you to play on their terms? Actually I think we finally got our scimitar fleet participation giveaway system working. Someone has already been awarded the first payout. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5861
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 06:17:00 -
[209] - Quote
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:Malcanis wrote:You and most hi-seccers seem to think sov null is just Turn up, Plant flag, Collect free Technetium & Anomalies. . You're missing the titanic amount of ISK (amd effort) that's required to gain, control, upgrade and maintain space. And that's not even including what it costs to fight for it. Just to claim it costs many billions per region, and then more billions per month to keep it. Oh no, there is dookey in your end of the sandbox! Shall you hold your nose and scoop it out, or just go and poop on the other side to make it match? Decisions, decisions. Oh wait, we're dealing with the vast web of insecurities & egomania of modern internet culture, so the answer is obvious: More poop for everyone. "There is no such thing as justice. There is only the desire to see the pain spread around equally." - Solomon Short
You like quotes? Here's a quote for you:
"Winter is coming" MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1892
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 06:19:00 -
[210] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:EI Digin wrote:RAGE QU1T wrote:Confirming, no one likes EMO raging FC's spamming alliance crying for more Logi's, furthermore people are tired of CTA online So don't join an alliance that demands you to play on their terms? Actually I think we finally got our scimitar fleet participation giveaway system working. Someone has already been awarded the first payout. Scimitar fleet? Is this a fleet where you just swarm everybody with light combat drones and RR the **** out of everybody? Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5861
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 06:19:00 -
[211] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:You see, there is a point where accusations of entitlement lose their bite. For me it's somewhere around the place where not liking a proposal which is designed to introduce bad gameplay for an area you don't like is "entitlement." You see a need for greater income disparity between sec statuses? Fine, really does make sense. Seriously. Want to turn an area of the game into a punishment? Not so much. Do you have an actual argument as to why it's a good thing or is that just an old fallback? Why should you get the best stuff for free? How would greater income disparity in trade be for free? I'm referring to the fact that you can get 100% refining in highsec for nothing other than doing some missions and training a few skills, not to mention you have TONS more manufacturing slots. It's only fair that you'd have to pay something to use such services. If you make it harder for people in hisec, you wont get more people moving to low/null
Actually, yes we will. If hi-sec becomes less profitable for nullsec for industry, invention, missioning, or whatever, then the tens of thousands of null-sec owned alts that operate in hi-sec will repatriate to 0.0 as fast as you can say "ISK/hr".
Or maybe you think we will keep them there even though it makes no sense to? Why do you think we'll do that?
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5861
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 06:21:00 -
[212] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Yeah, let's respond to sensible arguments with childishness and irrelevant quotes! The quote was quite relevant, as it was a clear indication of the psychological dysfunction of the common whining nullbear. Childishness is simply my way of lowering the bar of conversation down to their own level of intellect for greater ease of comprehension. Did you enjoy it, or should I go back to being superciliously brusque? Your little argument boiled down to "nullsec sucks, don't nerf highsec, just buff nullsec instead" which ignores how that's not actually possible without breaking the game completely. Don't think we want to make highsec suck for industry as a means of balance in itself. Highsec needs to be nerfed, but it doesn't need to suck. Not only that, but if we were to nerf highsec without buffing anywhere else that would hurt nullsec alliances as well because currently highsec is where most of our ships and modules are built. You musn't take away even 1% of their refining in highsec.
The answer is obviously to make nullsec refineries 111% efficient
And then increase all blueprint mineral requirements by 10% MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2499
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 06:23:00 -
[213] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Yeah, let's respond to sensible arguments with childishness and irrelevant quotes! The quote was quite relevant, as it was a clear indication of the psychological dysfunction of the common whining nullbear. Childishness is simply my way of lowering the bar of conversation down to their own level of intellect for greater ease of comprehension. Did you enjoy it, or should I go back to being superciliously brusque? Your little argument boiled down to "nullsec sucks, don't nerf highsec, just buff nullsec instead" which ignores how that's not actually possible without breaking the game completely. Don't think we want to make highsec suck for industry as a means of balance in itself. Highsec needs to be nerfed, but it doesn't need to suck. Not only that, but if we were to nerf highsec without buffing anywhere else that would hurt nullsec alliances as well because currently highsec is where most of our ships and modules are built. You musn't take away even 1% of their refining in highsec. The answer is obviously to make nullsec refineries 111% efficient And then increase all blueprint mineral requirements by 10% Heh heh heh.
Another round of production speculation changes, eh. By the way, want to buy some T1 cruisers? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5868
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 06:36:00 -
[214] - Quote
Yes please, 5 caracals & 5 moas to V-3 please. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
371
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 06:59:00 -
[215] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
Actually, yes we will. If hi-sec becomes less profitable for nullsec for industry, invention, missioning, or whatever, then the tens of thousands of null-sec owned alts that operate in hi-sec will repatriate to 0.0 as fast as you can say "ISK/hr".
Or maybe you think we will keep them there even though it makes no sense to? Why do you think we'll do that?
No theyll just unsub.
Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1895
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 07:00:00 -
[216] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Malcanis wrote:
Actually, yes we will. If hi-sec becomes less profitable for nullsec for industry, invention, missioning, or whatever, then the tens of thousands of null-sec owned alts that operate in hi-sec will repatriate to 0.0 as fast as you can say "ISK/hr".
Or maybe you think we will keep them there even though it makes no sense to? Why do you think we'll do that?
No theyll just unsub. Prove it. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
371
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 07:04:00 -
[217] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Malcanis wrote:
Actually, yes we will. If hi-sec becomes less profitable for nullsec for industry, invention, missioning, or whatever, then the tens of thousands of null-sec owned alts that operate in hi-sec will repatriate to 0.0 as fast as you can say "ISK/hr".
Or maybe you think we will keep them there even though it makes no sense to? Why do you think we'll do that?
No theyll just unsub. Prove it.
As shown in my opening post, Hulkaggeddon tried to get everybody into null in an indirect way, ccp was losing so many subs they Buffed Mining Barges, Unheard of in the History of this game, to Buff Mining Barges so quickly .
Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1896
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 07:08:00 -
[218] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Malcanis wrote:
Actually, yes we will. If hi-sec becomes less profitable for nullsec for industry, invention, missioning, or whatever, then the tens of thousands of null-sec owned alts that operate in hi-sec will repatriate to 0.0 as fast as you can say "ISK/hr".
Or maybe you think we will keep them there even though it makes no sense to? Why do you think we'll do that?
No theyll just unsub. Prove it. As shown in my opening post, Hulkaggeddon tried to get everybody into null in an indirect way, ccp was losing so many subs they Buffed Mining Barges, Unheard of in the History of this game, to Buff Mining Barges so quickly . Oh and inflation was getting outta hand too, we had so many whining posts about that, all stable now, thx to hiseccers mostly, mess with them and pvp wont be happening much, cos even your shuttle will cost 20 mil Um... what Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 07:28:00 -
[219] - Quote
What confuses me sometimes is trying to figure out what people actually want.
* If you want people to roam low/null looking for stuff, you have to at least make the entry safer. Hunt them all you like after they are in there, but don't force players to enter the system in a way so predictable (name shows up, flashing gate) that basically yells out "shoot me, I'm RIGHT HERE".
* If you think hisec is too safe, well gee, that's the damn idea of any civilized society. We already pay taxes to the NPC corps, if you must, add a CONCORD subcharge and call it the cost of police protection. If you were to nerf hisec so bad as to make people unhappy, you'd just get alliances charging for even more services to undercut hisec. Test already charges billion isk monthly fees in rent for whole systems because they know players can make more then that easily by ratting and anoms.
* If you want more balanced ship pew pew, then I think you're out of luck, because given the choice, no player wants to be on the losing side, so hunting your lone ass down with 20 ships is not called overkill, its called efficiency.
What I am getting at, is that I keep reading "let's nerf this or boost that" but I never see any arguments other then "its too easy" or "it's too hard".
* If it's too easy, you should be doing it too, not complaining.
* If it's too hard, get help in a Corp, or read spoilers on how to do it, cause I guarantee you that if anything in EVE was actually REALLY BAD, you'd hear real screaming, not just see annoyed posts in the forums, you'd get Burn Jita and Monoclegate level events.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5868
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 07:41:00 -
[220] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:Malcanis wrote:You and most hi-seccers seem to think sov null is just Turn up, Plant flag, Collect free Technetium & Anomalies. . You're missing the titanic amount of ISK (amd effort) that's required to gain, control, upgrade and maintain space. And that's not even including what it costs to fight for it. Just to claim it costs many billions per region, and then more billions per month to keep it. Oh no, there is dookey in your end of the sandbox! Shall you hold your nose and scoop it out, or just go and poop on the other side to make it match? Decisions, decisions. Oh wait, we're dealing with the vast web of insecurities & egomania of modern internet culture, so the answer is obvious: More poop for everyone. "There is no such thing as justice. There is only the desire to see the pain spread around equally." - Solomon Short There is a lot of truth here, jealousy can get the better of people, so instead of doing something about improving their own circumstance, some just want every one to share their problems, that doesn't bode well for progress in Eve.
Yeah we're asking to share the "problem" of viable industry
man how mean spirited and selfish can we get? MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1191
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 07:59:00 -
[221] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:Malcanis wrote:You and most hi-seccers seem to think sov null is just Turn up, Plant flag, Collect free Technetium & Anomalies. . You're missing the titanic amount of ISK (amd effort) that's required to gain, control, upgrade and maintain space. And that's not even including what it costs to fight for it. Just to claim it costs many billions per region, and then more billions per month to keep it. Oh no, there is dookey in your end of the sandbox! Shall you hold your nose and scoop it out, or just go and poop on the other side to make it match? Decisions, decisions. Oh wait, we're dealing with the vast web of insecurities & egomania of modern internet culture, so the answer is obvious: More poop for everyone. "There is no such thing as justice. There is only the desire to see the pain spread around equally." - Solomon Short There is a lot of truth here, jealousy can get the better of people, so instead of doing something about improving their own circumstance, some just want every one to share their problems, that doesn't bode well for progress in Eve. Yeah we're asking to share the "problem" of viable industry man how mean spirited and selfish can we get? That is kind of what this is about
Those wanting to nerf Hi-sec really just need a bullet.
This should be more about the whole game and less about any individual zones.
NPC refining, manufacturing, ME & PE research copying ect. Should be Nerfed with the player owned and built facilities being massively buffed to encourage people to own their own facilities in all parts of space.
My only worry with the current ideas is the introduction of hi-sec minerals to Null but if this was off set with a reduction in the range of bridges and jump drives to more isolate Null from the Hi-sec markets.
While this would damage the hi-sec markets by removing Null as a market to sell too, it would prevent the cheaper Null produced goods from further damaging the markets in Hi-sec and allow Null to become more than just a suburb of Hi-sec. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1899
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 08:21:00 -
[222] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Those wanting to nerf Hi-sec really just need a bullet. Is that a threat? Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1191
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 08:26:00 -
[223] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Those wanting to nerf Hi-sec really just need a bullet. Is that a threat? I was going to write something long.
But given the word I used bullet and the word threat in the same post I will just say NO.
mostly given to CCPs weird interpretation of DIAF some years back. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1899
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 08:28:00 -
[224] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Those wanting to nerf Hi-sec really just need a bullet. Is that a threat? I was going to write something long. But given the word I used bullet and the word threat in the same post I will just say NO. mostly given to CCPs weird interpretation of DIAF some years back. What else could you have possibly meant? It doesn't exactly refer to anything in EVE. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
373
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 08:59:00 -
[225] - Quote
POSs that refine at a mere 75% does make POS less desirable, buff POSs, Im ok with that.
Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1206
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 09:46:00 -
[226] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Frying Doom wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Those wanting to nerf Hi-sec really just need a bullet. Is that a threat? I was going to write something long. But given the word I used bullet and the word threat in the same post I will just say NO. mostly given to CCPs weird interpretation of DIAF some years back. What else could you have possibly meant? It doesn't exactly refer to anything in EVE. So there are no bullets in EVE?
Man I must have taken some good drugs years ago, I still keep hallucinating bullets in this game. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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CaiIyn Dove
Perkone Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 10:10:00 -
[227] - Quote
There will not be a one way "nerf" or "boost" on either high or null. The balance between high and null will be revised as a whole, make the risk/isk reward ratio always match the "risk/reward" rule. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1210
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 10:13:00 -
[228] - Quote
CaiIyn Dove wrote:There will not be a one way "nerf" or "boost" on either high or null. The balance between high and null will be revised as a whole, make the risk/isk reward ratio always match the "risk/reward" rule. But would that not mean that WH space then needs to be buffed to make the risk vs reward higher than Nulls Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
1739
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 10:25:00 -
[229] - Quote
I removed a bit of silliness from this thread. Though just a bit, Community Representative GÇ+ EVE Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5881
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 10:26:00 -
[230] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:CaiIyn Dove wrote:There will not be a one way "nerf" or "boost" on either high or null. The balance between high and null will be revised as a whole, make the risk/isk reward ratio always match the "risk/reward" rule. But would that not mean that WH space then needs to be buffed to make the risk vs reward higher than Nulls
W-space is already astonishingly lucrative. Even when I was only dabbling, 400M an hour was easily done, and I've heard credible schemas for even higher rates. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5881
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 10:27:00 -
[231] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote: POSs that refine at a mere 75% does make POS less desirable, buff POSs, Im ok with that.
The POS refine job also takes several hours. Just saying! MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
CaiIyn Dove
Perkone Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 10:29:00 -
[232] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:CaiIyn Dove wrote:There will not be a one way "nerf" or "boost" on either high or null. The balance between high and null will be revised as a whole, make the risk/isk reward ratio always match the "risk/reward" rule. But would that not mean that WH space then needs to be buffed to make the risk vs reward higher than Nulls
Isn't that already works in that way? I don't live in WH anyway so I don't know, but if it is the case, do it.
I hope you're not expecting me to be jealous to the WH or whatever that turn against the whole balance, because it is so unusual to human mind. |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
379
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 11:52:00 -
[233] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Frying Doom wrote:CaiIyn Dove wrote:There will not be a one way "nerf" or "boost" on either high or null. The balance between high and null will be revised as a whole, make the risk/isk reward ratio always match the "risk/reward" rule. But would that not mean that WH space then needs to be buffed to make the risk vs reward higher than Nulls W-space is already astonishingly lucrative. Even when I was only dabbling, 400M an hour was easily done, and I've heard credible schemas for even higher rates.
Hmm, wonder why the null bears dont cry "nerf WHs!" I mean if you find an isolated WH, and scan reguarly, risk is minimal. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1211
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 12:05:00 -
[234] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Malcanis wrote:Frying Doom wrote:CaiIyn Dove wrote:There will not be a one way "nerf" or "boost" on either high or null. The balance between high and null will be revised as a whole, make the risk/isk reward ratio always match the "risk/reward" rule. But would that not mean that WH space then needs to be buffed to make the risk vs reward higher than Nulls W-space is already astonishingly lucrative. Even when I was only dabbling, 400M an hour was easily done, and I've heard credible schemas for even higher rates. Hmm, wonder why the null bears dont cry "nerf WHs!" I mean if you find an isolated WH, and scan reguarly, risk is minimal. 400 mill an hour what a load of crap. Try way lower than that. And we can't just cyno our stuff to the nearest Hi-sec market.
Isolated is the word however and the more isolated the more of a ***** it is to get to a market. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
379
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 12:10:00 -
[235] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Malcanis wrote:Frying Doom wrote:CaiIyn Dove wrote:There will not be a one way "nerf" or "boost" on either high or null. The balance between high and null will be revised as a whole, make the risk/isk reward ratio always match the "risk/reward" rule. But would that not mean that WH space then needs to be buffed to make the risk vs reward higher than Nulls W-space is already astonishingly lucrative. Even when I was only dabbling, 400M an hour was easily done, and I've heard credible schemas for even higher rates. Hmm, wonder why the null bears dont cry "nerf WHs!" I mean if you find an isolated WH, and scan reguarly, risk is minimal. 400 mill an hour what a load of crap. Try way lower than that. And we can't just cyno our stuff to the nearest Hi-sec market. Isolated is the word however and the more isolated the more of a ***** it is to get to a market.
Yeah , I have 17 PI planets in Class 4 with a Class 4 static, takes a long time to get to hisec through multiple WHs, and am willing to risk it since hisec PI is pretty bad. But I wouldn't wanna mine in a WH with the POS refining restrictions, unless hisec mining is made uselss, but that'll just wreck the economy.
Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1211
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 13:08:00 -
[236] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Malcanis wrote:Frying Doom wrote: But would that not mean that WH space then needs to be buffed to make the risk vs reward higher than Nulls
W-space is already astonishingly lucrative. Even when I was only dabbling, 400M an hour was easily done, and I've heard credible schemas for even higher rates. Hmm, wonder why the null bears dont cry "nerf WHs!" I mean if you find an isolated WH, and scan reguarly, risk is minimal. 400 mill an hour what a load of crap. Try way lower than that. And we can't just cyno our stuff to the nearest Hi-sec market. Isolated is the word however and the more isolated the more of a ***** it is to get to a market. Yeah , I have 17 PI planets in Class 4 with a Class 4 static, takes a long time to get to hisec through multiple WHs, and am willing to risk it since hisec PI is pretty bad. But I wouldn't wanna mine in a WH with the POS refining restrictions, unless hisec mining is made uselss, but that'll just wreck the economy. It would want to be one hell of a gut to make mining in a WH worth while. Even if they make the Player refineries better than NPC it will still be touchy as you have to fly the stuff out spamming d-scan as you go and waiting for the inevitable cloaked ship to blow you to bits with no warning. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Ghazu
406
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 18:50:00 -
[237] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Malcanis wrote:Frying Doom wrote:CaiIyn Dove wrote:There will not be a one way "nerf" or "boost" on either high or null. The balance between high and null will be revised as a whole, make the risk/isk reward ratio always match the "risk/reward" rule. But would that not mean that WH space then needs to be buffed to make the risk vs reward higher than Nulls W-space is already astonishingly lucrative. Even when I was only dabbling, 400M an hour was easily done, and I've heard credible schemas for even higher rates. Hmm, wonder why the null bears dont cry "nerf WHs!" I mean if you find an isolated WH, and scan reguarly, risk is minimal. No local, concord, blobs, supers, stations, gates, or keep wondering your hisec mind away. http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984 |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
128
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 20:14:00 -
[238] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Eternal Error wrote:This thread sucks. Youre a Pirate right?
Yea he lives in lowsec with a lot of other gate campers. (Yes I'm bitter for getting blown up the other evening =P) "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
128
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 20:30:00 -
[239] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:destiny2 wrote:If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of? You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop.
Thousands and thousands of years, if you read the lore for Empire space. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2257
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 20:33:00 -
[240] - Quote
hi-sec players put in thousands and thousands of years to get access to invulnerable, ubiquitous superior and free station access and services, if you read the lore for Empire space |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5910
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 20:35:00 -
[241] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Malcanis wrote:Frying Doom wrote:CaiIyn Dove wrote:There will not be a one way "nerf" or "boost" on either high or null. The balance between high and null will be revised as a whole, make the risk/isk reward ratio always match the "risk/reward" rule. But would that not mean that WH space then needs to be buffed to make the risk vs reward higher than Nulls W-space is already astonishingly lucrative. Even when I was only dabbling, 400M an hour was easily done, and I've heard credible schemas for even higher rates. Hmm, wonder why the null bears dont cry "nerf WHs!" I mean if you find an isolated WH, and scan reguarly, risk is minimal. 400 mill an hour what a load of crap. Try way lower than that. And we can't just cyno our stuff to the nearest Hi-sec market. Isolated is the word however and the more isolated the more of a ***** it is to get to a market.
Sorry man I can only speak from my own experience and that's what I was making. I freely concede my W-space experience is limited. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5910
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 20:36:00 -
[242] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Malcanis wrote:Frying Doom wrote:CaiIyn Dove wrote:There will not be a one way "nerf" or "boost" on either high or null. The balance between high and null will be revised as a whole, make the risk/isk reward ratio always match the "risk/reward" rule. But would that not mean that WH space then needs to be buffed to make the risk vs reward higher than Nulls W-space is already astonishingly lucrative. Even when I was only dabbling, 400M an hour was easily done, and I've heard credible schemas for even higher rates. Hmm, wonder why the null bears dont cry "nerf WHs!" I mean if you find an isolated WH, and scan reguarly, risk is minimal.
Maybe because we're not solely motivated by envy and selfishness like you.
Let me know if you need some help understanding this viewpoint. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
128
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 20:46:00 -
[243] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Glathull wrote:Malcanis wrote:You are not only misreading it, you're employing an obvious fallacy.
"People build stuff in hi-sec, therefore trying to make it viable to build stuff in nullsec as well is the same as trying to turn it into hi-sec".
"****** had a moustache and you're growing a moustache, therefore you're trying to declare war on Poland and conquer eastern Europe."
Imagine that all Amarr ships had a 50% hit point penalty in 0.0; correcting this wouldn't be "turning 0.0 into hi-sec", it would just be correcting an obvious and egregious imbalance, because there's nothing inherent to the concept of hi-sec that mandates Amarr ships only being worthwhile in empire and not in null.
SO: No, building stuff isn't the defining characteristic of hi-sec. What makes hi-sec hi-sec are the characteristics that are unique to it, like CONCORD.
The ability to build stuff is explicitly enabled in all areas, even W-space; but they're not properly balanced. Hi-sec has all of the advantages and none of the disadvantages, which is obviously imbalanced. You don't get to have the best stations AND multiple stations AND the stations are free AND you can't be locked out of them AND you can't lose them AND you get free NPC protection AND you can run missions from them... something has to give here.
There's a lot of incoherent stuff here. I'm pretty careful about fallacies, and I haven't employed any here. You employed the exact fallacy that I demonstrated: asserting that two things with a single similar characteristic are therefore similar in all characteristics. Glathull wrote: According to you:
Building things is okay.
So long as . . . it's not more efficient to build things in high sec.
What you want is a null sec that has stations at least as good as high sec for, well, everything.
That's what it sounds like.
And yes, pretty much that's what it sounds like because that's what it is. That's what I'm arguing. Hi-sec is both more efficient AND free AND safer. That's as unbalanced as a ship that's faster AND has more EHP AND has better DPS than others in its class. Why should hi-sec be the best in every respect? Why isn't there a trade-off for that CONCORD-provided safety? Shouldn't that be balanced against lower efficiency? Shouldn't a station that cost players tens of billions of ISK and which is vulnerable to being taken away from them provide some compelling efficiency advantage over one that's just put there for free and which they can't ever be locked out of and which doesn't require continuous spending on sov bills?
Not every ship is created the same. All have specific roles and some are better than others. Highsec isn't "ours", it's everyones since its NPC controlled. NPC null is similiar with stations, such as mission agents and locator agents.
Sov space is "your's" to do with as you please without rules. The tradeoff? It isn't as industrial as high sec.
And of course, as we all know, Eve isn't fair. Balance doesn't belong. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2257
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 20:48:00 -
[244] - Quote
Ship and game balancing doesn't belong, because EVE isn't fair. Slogans trump common sense and proper game design.
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Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
128
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 21:18:00 -
[245] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:You see, there is a point where accusations of entitlement lose their bite. For me it's somewhere around the place where not liking a proposal which is designed to introduce bad gameplay for an area you don't like is "entitlement." You see a need for greater income disparity between sec statuses? Fine, really does make sense. Seriously. Want to turn an area of the game into a punishment? Not so much. Do you have an actual argument as to why it's a good thing or is that just an old fallback? Why should you get the best stuff for free? How would greater income disparity in trade be for free? I'm referring to the fact that you can get 100% refining in highsec for nothing other than doing some missions and training a few skills, not to mention you have TONS more manufacturing slots. It's only fair that you'd have to pay something to use such services.
This is to imply you cannot gain access to that same measure. The only thing that would be stopping you would be a security status, and even then, you still could.
That's the cool part of highsec; it doesn't belong to players. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
1038
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 21:21:00 -
[246] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote: That's the cool part of highsec; it doesn't belong to players.
This is the cool part of EVE Now? Lack of player involvement and initiative is awesome? A static world is awesome? The only time a static world is awesome is when you're a farming alt. Oh wait, that's right, you are farming. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2261
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 21:23:00 -
[247] - Quote
highsec industry is balanced because everyone can jump their ore to highsec for reprocessing instead of using their own space they maintain and defend |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
1038
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 21:25:00 -
[248] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:highsec industry is balanced because everyone can jump their ore to highsec for reprocessing instead of using their own space they maintain and defend
People who own their own space are just evil miner bumping griefers anyway who's stated goal is to force everyone into 24/7 CTAs. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
128
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 21:30:00 -
[249] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Murk Paradox wrote: That's the cool part of highsec; it doesn't belong to players.
This is the cool part of EVE Now? Lack of player involvement and initiative is awesome? A static world is awesome? The only time a static world is awesome is when you're a farming alt. Oh wait, that's right, you are farming.
Yes, because of the fact highsec is npc controlled, you have griefers, gankers, thieves, scammers, pyramid schemes, trades, a whole plethora of color and market options and player options at your disposal.
Because it's npc controlled. Because it is highsec. Everything else is so much more limited. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
1038
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 21:31:00 -
[250] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Murk Paradox wrote: That's the cool part of highsec; it doesn't belong to players.
This is the cool part of EVE Now? Lack of player involvement and initiative is awesome? A static world is awesome? The only time a static world is awesome is when you're a farming alt. Oh wait, that's right, you are farming. Yes, because of the fact highsec is npc controlled, you have griefers, gankers, thieves, scammers, pyramid schemes, trades, a whole plethora of color and market options and player options at your disposal. Because it's npc controlled. Because it is highsec. Everything else is so much more limited.
Oh my, now lo and nullsec are the places that are limited. Tell me more. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
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Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
128
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 21:35:00 -
[251] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Murk Paradox wrote: That's the cool part of highsec; it doesn't belong to players.
This is the cool part of EVE Now? Lack of player involvement and initiative is awesome? A static world is awesome? The only time a static world is awesome is when you're a farming alt. Oh wait, that's right, you are farming. Yes, because of the fact highsec is npc controlled, you have griefers, gankers, thieves, scammers, pyramid schemes, trades, a whole plethora of color and market options and player options at your disposal. Because it's npc controlled. Because it is highsec. Everything else is so much more limited. Oh my, now lo and nullsec are the places that are limited. Tell me more.
Don't make other places so undesirable. You have the control and power to regulate how things are, yet you want to have gatecamps, and massive roams and control over areas to NOT have people enter at the cost of their ships.
You made it undesirable, and now it is. Wah wah wah. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
1038
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 21:37:00 -
[252] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Murk Paradox wrote: That's the cool part of highsec; it doesn't belong to players.
This is the cool part of EVE Now? Lack of player involvement and initiative is awesome? A static world is awesome? The only time a static world is awesome is when you're a farming alt. Oh wait, that's right, you are farming. Yes, because of the fact highsec is npc controlled, you have griefers, gankers, thieves, scammers, pyramid schemes, trades, a whole plethora of color and market options and player options at your disposal. Because it's npc controlled. Because it is highsec. Everything else is so much more limited. Oh my, now lo and nullsec are the places that are limited. Tell me more. Don't make other places so undesirable. You have the control and power to regulate how things are, yet you want to have gatecamps, and massive roams and control over areas to NOT have people enter at the cost of their ships. You made it undesirable, and now it is. Wah wah wah.
So you want an alliance to go through the expense and work of maintaining a functioning infrastructure, keeping it safe from enemy invaders, and freeporting all the bases? And they have to let you act like an antisocial animal just because you are there? Does that make sense? Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2262
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 21:42:00 -
[253] - Quote
Highsec should have greater rewards then 0.0 and lowsec, because competition over resources and player initiative should be punished by game mechanics. Players that PvP in a PvP-based game setting are also morally obliged to support and defend neutrals who selfishly refuse to contribute or learn how to play the game effectively. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
128
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 21:43:00 -
[254] - Quote
[quote=masternerdguySo you want an alliance to go through the expense and work of maintaining a functioning infrastructure, keeping it safe from enemy invaders, and freeporting all the bases? And they have to let you act like an antisocial animal just because you are there? Does that make sense?[/quote]
I don't "want" anything. When I get destroyed going through TEST space getting stuck in a bubble, I move on and try to not get stuck in it again. It's TEST's space, they wanted the bubble there, they put it there. I move on.
I don't act like an antisocial animal, that's the point. When I see people in local, I wave as I'm passing through. When I went through in a venture, someone at a gate camp mentioned not being able to catch me, I replied I wasn't worth much and was passing through, then said bye as I left.
The point is, when I am in someone else's space, I take a chance. I accept it, I move on.
If an alliance wants to be NBSI and blows away everything that moves not blue, that's their fault, not mine. Doesn't matter if I'm in my little corner of NPC Null, or in highsec near Dodixie, or if I'm roaming in lowsec around Schoorasana. It all applies the same; you choose how you want your environment to be.
The rest is just whining. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
383
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 21:55:00 -
[255] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Highsec should have greater rewards then 0.0 and lowsec, because competition over resources and player initiative should be punished by game mechanics. Players that PvP in a PvP-based game setting are also morally obliged to support and defend neutrals who selfishly refuse to contribute or learn how to play the game effectively. It's the network effect at work.
If you just look at what you can do, 0.0 and lowsec are incredible, but that's not where the most people are so they end up being a bit drab compared to their potential. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Luanda Heartbreaker
19
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 21:55:00 -
[256] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Highsec should have greater rewards then 0.0 and lowsec, because competition over resources and player initiative should be punished by game mechanics. Players that PvP in a PvP-based game setting are also morally obliged to support and defend neutrals who selfishly refuse to contribute or learn how to play the game effectively.
omg. u should be banned. how old u are? 2? 3? selfish in a game? so i have to be ur slave to not be selfish? of a free target to make u happy? get a life little geek, world is not up for u |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
1038
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 21:57:00 -
[257] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:masternerdguy wrote:So you want an alliance to go through the expense and work of maintaining a functioning infrastructure, keeping it safe from enemy invaders, and freeporting all the bases? And they have to let you act like an antisocial animal just because you are there? Does that make sense? I don't "want" anything. When I get destroyed going through TEST space getting stuck in a bubble, I move on and try to not get stuck in it again. It's TEST's space, they wanted the bubble there, they put it there. I move on. I don't act like an antisocial animal, that's the point. When I see people in local, I wave as I'm passing through. When I went through in a venture, someone at a gate camp mentioned not being able to catch me, I replied I wasn't worth much and was passing through, then said bye as I left. The point is, when I am in someone else's space, I take a chance. I accept it, I move on. If an alliance wants to be NBSI and blows away everything that moves not blue, that's their fault, not mine. Doesn't matter if I'm in my little corner of NPC Null, or in highsec near Dodixie, or if I'm roaming in lowsec around Schoorasana. It all applies the same; you choose how you want your environment to be. The rest is just whining.
Your venture could be an enemy spy, scout, or have a cyno.
Things are only impossible until they are not. |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
2956
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 22:04:00 -
[258] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:This is to imply you cannot gain access to that same measure. The only thing that would be stopping you would be a security status, and even then, you still could.
That's the cool part of highsec; it doesn't belong to players. So you admit then that people have moved to highsec to do industry for their null alliances because industry is better there. Why then would people who do industry for their null alliances not move to nullsec to do industry once it's better there? Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
128
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 22:38:00 -
[259] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:This is to imply you cannot gain access to that same measure. The only thing that would be stopping you would be a security status, and even then, you still could.
That's the cool part of highsec; it doesn't belong to players. So you admit then that people have moved to highsec to do industry for their null alliances because industry is better there. Why then would people who do industry for their null alliances not move to nullsec to do industry once it's better there? It's easier and safer to move materials around nullsec (mainly having to do with jump freighter mechanics) than it is to move them from nullsec to highsec and back again, as well.
Because Null is not Highsec. Pros and cons. Unbalanced. As intended. And yes, it IS easier to move stuff in sov null because a lot of the bigger blocs do in fact come to highsec.. and they, omigosh, gank. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
128
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 22:39:00 -
[260] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:masternerdguy wrote:So you want an alliance to go through the expense and work of maintaining a functioning infrastructure, keeping it safe from enemy invaders, and freeporting all the bases? And they have to let you act like an antisocial animal just because you are there? Does that make sense? I don't "want" anything. When I get destroyed going through TEST space getting stuck in a bubble, I move on and try to not get stuck in it again. It's TEST's space, they wanted the bubble there, they put it there. I move on. I don't act like an antisocial animal, that's the point. When I see people in local, I wave as I'm passing through. When I went through in a venture, someone at a gate camp mentioned not being able to catch me, I replied I wasn't worth much and was passing through, then said bye as I left. The point is, when I am in someone else's space, I take a chance. I accept it, I move on. If an alliance wants to be NBSI and blows away everything that moves not blue, that's their fault, not mine. Doesn't matter if I'm in my little corner of NPC Null, or in highsec near Dodixie, or if I'm roaming in lowsec around Schoorasana. It all applies the same; you choose how you want your environment to be. The rest is just whining. Your venture could be an enemy spy, scout, or have a cyno.
Or could be me playing in a frig and moving it deep into npc null (which it was). "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
|
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
379
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 22:44:00 -
[261] - Quote
True enough, even if nullsec industry were buffed, the materials would still have to be brought to hisec to sell, few are going to venture to null sec to buy stuff, moving stuff to hisec is risky and would result in killmails , now thats fine, but if hisec is nerfed to the ground, then all those extra killmails will result in a depressed economy, all is really balanced now,
And these nullsec alts in hisec that people are talking about, if it finances their fun in nullsec, then its all good. Don't fix stuff that works. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2587
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 23:06:00 -
[262] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:masternerdguy wrote:So you want an alliance to go through the expense and work of maintaining a functioning infrastructure, keeping it safe from enemy invaders, and freeporting all the bases? And they have to let you act like an antisocial animal just because you are there? Does that make sense? I don't "want" anything. When I get destroyed going through TEST space getting stuck in a bubble, I move on and try to not get stuck in it again. It's TEST's space, they wanted the bubble there, they put it there. I move on. I don't act like an antisocial animal, that's the point. When I see people in local, I wave as I'm passing through. When I went through in a venture, someone at a gate camp mentioned not being able to catch me, I replied I wasn't worth much and was passing through, then said bye as I left. The point is, when I am in someone else's space, I take a chance. I accept it, I move on. If an alliance wants to be NBSI and blows away everything that moves not blue, that's their fault, not mine. Doesn't matter if I'm in my little corner of NPC Null, or in highsec near Dodixie, or if I'm roaming in lowsec around Schoorasana. It all applies the same; you choose how you want your environment to be. The rest is just whining. Your venture could be an enemy spy, scout, or have a cyno. Who knows, you might be a PL alt, and there's titans in them there hills Or could be me playing in a frig and moving it deep into npc null (which it was).
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2264
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 23:16:00 -
[263] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:True enough, even if nullsec industry were buffed, the materials would still have to be brought to hisec to sell Nullsec is the end consumer of the vast majority of materials in the game, even with its smaller population. What would happen is that with proper secondary economic support in nullsec, tertiary economies (retail) would emerge in 0.0. WIth highsec manufacturing fit in order to replenish highsec's level of material consumption (aka ship loss) and not all of New Eden's with space to spare, there would still be a need for highsec markets to facilitate trade for things like region-specific moon goo, faction items (both navy and pirate) and T3 product.
Quote:few are going to venture to null sec to buy stuff, moving stuff to hisec is risky and would result in killmails , now thats fine, but if hisec is nerfed to the ground, then all those extra killmails will result in a depressed economy, all is really balanced now, Increased demand would hurt the EVE economy? Quite the opposite. Increased demand for goods means suppliers can command a higher wage.
Quote:And these nullsec alts in hisec that people are talking about, if it finances their fun in nullsec, then its all good. Don't fix stuff that works. Nobody but you believes it's good, hth. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2587
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 23:20:00 -
[264] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Quote:And these nullsec alts in hisec that people are talking about, if it finances their fun in nullsec, then its all good. Don't fix stuff that works. Nobody but you believes it's good, hth. Everyone agrees you must never try to nerf highsec, it's perfectly fine. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
381
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 00:14:00 -
[265] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:True enough, even if nullsec industry were buffed, the materials would still have to be brought to hisec to sell Nullsec is the end consumer of the vast majority of materials in the game, even with its smaller population. What would happen is that with proper secondary economic support in nullsec, tertiary economies (retail) would emerge in 0.0. WIth highsec manufacturing fit in order to replenish highsec's level of material consumption (aka ship loss) and not all of New Eden's with space to spare, there would still be a need for highsec markets to facilitate trade for things like region-specific moon goo, faction items (both navy and pirate) and T3 product. Quote:few are going to venture to null sec to buy stuff, moving stuff to hisec is risky and would result in killmails , now thats fine, but if hisec is nerfed to the ground, then all those extra killmails will result in a depressed economy, all is really balanced now, Increased demand would hurt the EVE economy? Quite the opposite. Increased demand for goods means suppliers can command a higher wage. Quote:And these nullsec alts in hisec that people are talking about, if it finances their fun in nullsec, then its all good. Don't fix stuff that works. Nobody but you believes it's good, hth.
Theres a lot of risk moving stuff around in null sec in freighters, its just not possible that null sec hubs will ever be on par with hisec hubs. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1242
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 00:18:00 -
[266] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Quote:And these nullsec alts in hisec that people are talking about, if it finances their fun in nullsec, then its all good. Don't fix stuff that works. Nobody but you believes it's good, hth. Everyone agrees you must never try to nerf highsec, it's perfectly fine. While I must admit I do like the new tag team sarcasm approach, who has actually said Hi-sec must never be nerfed?
I will admit it will require care to do and my own bias is that I feel it should be NPC owned stuff that is nerfed not a sector per say.
But has anyone actually said "Hi-sec must never be nerfed"
Sorry I might have just missed it. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
1041
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 00:25:00 -
[267] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Quote:And these nullsec alts in hisec that people are talking about, if it finances their fun in nullsec, then its all good. Don't fix stuff that works. Nobody but you believes it's good, hth. Everyone agrees you must never try to nerf highsec, it's perfectly fine. While I must admit I do like the new tag team sarcasm approach, who has actually said Hi-sec must never be nerfed? I will admit it will require care to do and my own bias is that I feel it should be NPC owned stuff that is nerfed not a sector per say. But has anyone actually said "Hi-sec must never be nerfed" Sorry I might have just missed it.
Many claim that nerfing hi sec will end EVE because of mass unsubs, so yes. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1243
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 00:32:00 -
[268] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Quote:And these nullsec alts in hisec that people are talking about, if it finances their fun in nullsec, then its all good. Don't fix stuff that works. Nobody but you believes it's good, hth. Everyone agrees you must never try to nerf highsec, it's perfectly fine. While I must admit I do like the new tag team sarcasm approach, who has actually said Hi-sec must never be nerfed? I will admit it will require care to do and my own bias is that I feel it should be NPC owned stuff that is nerfed not a sector per say. But has anyone actually said "Hi-sec must never be nerfed" Sorry I might have just missed it. Many claim that nerfing hi sec will end EVE because of mass unsubs, so yes. Even I am in that camp if you nerf the crap out of it. It needs a gentle touch or as I have proposed the ability to replace the NPC facilities with player owned ones that are comparable to the current NPC facilities. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2590
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 00:38:00 -
[269] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Quote:And these nullsec alts in hisec that people are talking about, if it finances their fun in nullsec, then its all good. Don't fix stuff that works. Nobody but you believes it's good, hth. Everyone agrees you must never try to nerf highsec, it's perfectly fine. While I must admit I do like the new tag team sarcasm approach, who has actually said Hi-sec must never be nerfed? I will admit it will require care to do and my own bias is that I feel it should be NPC owned stuff that is nerfed not a sector per say. But has anyone actually said "Hi-sec must never be nerfed" Sorry I might have just missed it. Many claim that nerfing hi sec will end EVE because of mass unsubs, so yes. Heh, like it wasn't blatantly obvious. Silly rhetorical question is silly. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
2959
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 00:52:00 -
[270] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Theres a lot of risk moving stuff around in null sec in freighters, its just not possible that null sec hubs will ever be on par with hisec hubs. Gee, I never thought of that. If only we had a ship that was like a freighter but had a jump drive in exchange for somewhat less cargo space... Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
|
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
1042
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 00:54:00 -
[271] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Theres a lot of risk moving stuff around in null sec in freighters, its just not possible that null sec hubs will ever be on par with hisec hubs. Gee, I never thought of that. If only we had a ship that was like a freighter but had a jump drive in exchange for somewhat less cargo space...
If only we could fit a module to vastly improve hulk tank at a reduced mining yield.
That was too complex, CCP rebalanced an entire line of ships because of that. I expect they'll "rebalance" regular freighters to have 2x the HP, 99% resists, etc. For the children. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1243
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 00:56:00 -
[272] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Theres a lot of risk moving stuff around in null sec in freighters, its just not possible that null sec hubs will ever be on par with hisec hubs. Gee, I never thought of that. If only we had a ship that was like a freighter but had a jump drive in exchange for somewhat less cargo space... If only we could fit a module to vastly improve hulk tank at a reduced mining yield. That was too complex, CCP rebalanced an entire line of ships because of that. I expect they'll "rebalance" regular freighters to have 2x the HP, 99% resists, etc. For the children. The mining barge re-balance was one of the best things ever done.
I love my 127K ehp skiff :) Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
495
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 01:06:00 -
[273] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Theres a lot of risk moving stuff around in null sec in freighters, its just not possible that null sec hubs will ever be on par with hisec hubs. Gee, I never thought of that. If only we had a ship that was like a freighter but had a jump drive in exchange for somewhat less cargo space... If only we could fit a module to vastly improve hulk tank at a reduced mining yield. That was too complex, CCP rebalanced an entire line of ships because of that. I expect they'll "rebalance" regular freighters to have 2x the HP, 99% resists, etc. For the children. Why is having a special case tank mod for hulks a better solution than the rebalance? Or were you hoping that they best case tank was still 30k EHP after the balance? |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
1042
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 01:09:00 -
[274] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:masternerdguy wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Theres a lot of risk moving stuff around in null sec in freighters, its just not possible that null sec hubs will ever be on par with hisec hubs. Gee, I never thought of that. If only we had a ship that was like a freighter but had a jump drive in exchange for somewhat less cargo space... If only we could fit a module to vastly improve hulk tank at a reduced mining yield. That was too complex, CCP rebalanced an entire line of ships because of that. I expect they'll "rebalance" regular freighters to have 2x the HP, 99% resists, etc. For the children. Why is having a special case tank mod for hulks a better solution than the rebalance? Or were you hoping that they best case tank was still 30k EHP after the balance?
Lol special case mod.
I was talking about DAMAGE CONTROL 2 Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
495
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 01:10:00 -
[275] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:masternerdguy wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Theres a lot of risk moving stuff around in null sec in freighters, its just not possible that null sec hubs will ever be on par with hisec hubs. Gee, I never thought of that. If only we had a ship that was like a freighter but had a jump drive in exchange for somewhat less cargo space... If only we could fit a module to vastly improve hulk tank at a reduced mining yield. That was too complex, CCP rebalanced an entire line of ships because of that. I expect they'll "rebalance" regular freighters to have 2x the HP, 99% resists, etc. For the children. Why is having a special case tank mod for hulks a better solution than the rebalance? Or were you hoping that they best case tank was still 30k EHP after the balance? Lol special case mod. I was talking about DAMAGE CONTROL 2 So yes to the 30k EHP max then? |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
1042
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 01:11:00 -
[276] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I was talking about DAMAGE CONTROL 2 So yes to the 30k EHP max then?
Yep. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
2959
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 01:13:00 -
[277] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: So yes to the 30k EHP max then?
It doesn't take much to make ganking unprofitable, before OR after the exhumer buff. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
495
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 01:13:00 -
[278] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:masternerdguy wrote:
I was talking about DAMAGE CONTROL 2
So yes to the 30k EHP max then? Yep. Glad they didn't share your opinion. Procurer is quite nice @ 90K EHP. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1244
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 01:14:00 -
[279] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:masternerdguy wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Theres a lot of risk moving stuff around in null sec in freighters, its just not possible that null sec hubs will ever be on par with hisec hubs. Gee, I never thought of that. If only we had a ship that was like a freighter but had a jump drive in exchange for somewhat less cargo space... If only we could fit a module to vastly improve hulk tank at a reduced mining yield. That was too complex, CCP rebalanced an entire line of ships because of that. I expect they'll "rebalance" regular freighters to have 2x the HP, 99% resists, etc. For the children. Why is having a special case tank mod for hulks a better solution than the rebalance? Or were you hoping that they best case tank was still 30k EHP after the balance? Lol special case mod. I was talking about DAMAGE CONTROL 2 To be honest the thing that was actually best about the rebalance was the rebalance its self.
After so many years of watching PvP ships get rebalanced time and again it was nice to see something done for mining or manufacturing.
After all that has been promised, one click manufacturing, ring mining ect.. it was good to see something. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
497
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 01:17:00 -
[280] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: So yes to the 30k EHP max then?
It doesn't take much to make ganking unprofitable, before OR after the exhumer buff. In a .5 it pretty much took every slot the ship had, a non-compromise most other ships didn't have to make. It's like a combat ship without a single damage mod, no ewar and no tackle. Doesn't seem "balanced" to me. Maybe I'm overestimating the ganking potential but especially during permageddon this became true to a real extent. |
|
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
2959
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 01:21:00 -
[281] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: So yes to the 30k EHP max then?
It doesn't take much to make ganking unprofitable, before OR after the exhumer buff. In a .5 it pretty much took every slot the ship had, a non-compromise most other ships didn't have to make. It's like a combat ship without a single damage mod, no ewar and no tackle. Doesn't seem "balanced" to me. Maybe I'm overestimating the ganking potential but especially during permageddon this became true to a real extent. So don't go to 0.5 ohnoeschoices Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
497
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 01:24:00 -
[282] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: So yes to the 30k EHP max then?
It doesn't take much to make ganking unprofitable, before OR after the exhumer buff. In a .5 it pretty much took every slot the ship had, a non-compromise most other ships didn't have to make. It's like a combat ship without a single damage mod, no ewar and no tackle. Doesn't seem "balanced" to me. Maybe I'm overestimating the ganking potential but especially during permageddon this became true to a real extent. So don't go to 0.5 ohnoeschoices I prefer having options like lower yield but more tank. |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
382
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 02:25:00 -
[283] - Quote
To tell you the truth, if they "slightly" nerf hisec, it wont make any difference to player distribution, hisec has been mini-nerfed for years (lvl 4 nerfs, datacore nerfs etc etc) people are still not going to nullsec, nullsec needs a MASSIVE overhaul to attract players, nullsec is the problem. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1245
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 02:43:00 -
[284] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:To tell you the truth, if they "slightly" nerf hisec, it wont make any difference to player distribution, hisec has been mini-nerfed for years (lvl 4 nerfs, datacore nerfs etc etc) people are still not going to nullsec, nullsec needs a MASSIVE overhaul to attract players, nullsec is the problem. To be honest the whole thing is do do with player distribution but the need has to be to make players want to go rather than forcing them too.
Take wormholes
They are now getting kind of full, it is becoming rarer to find an uninhabited system. Why because they work, this risk vs reward while more dangerous than Null and only slightly more rewarding is acceptable as we have no blobs and no need to join super alliances to live.
If the same could be done for Null and lo-sec made better it would be great. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Torakenat
Space Cowboys United The Irukandji
25
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 02:44:00 -
[285] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:To tell you the truth, if they "slightly" nerf hisec, it wont make any difference to player distribution, hisec has been mini-nerfed for years (lvl 4 nerfs, datacore nerfs etc etc) people are still not going to nullsec, nullsec needs a MASSIVE overhaul to attract players, nullsec is the problem.
Give me my ferris wheel in null and we'll have an insurgency of new blood. |
ashley Eoner
157
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 02:51:00 -
[286] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:To tell you the truth, if they "slightly" nerf hisec, it wont make any difference to player distribution, hisec has been mini-nerfed for years (lvl 4 nerfs, datacore nerfs etc etc) people are still not going to nullsec, nullsec needs a MASSIVE overhaul to attract players, nullsec is the problem. It's not the content that's the problem it's the people. The people in nullsec have decided they love a field of blues so they can kick over the sand castles of the small up and coming groups..
Then the nullsec players turn around and complain about the lack of targets.
Nullsec miners crunch ABC ores in massive numbers behind a huge blue shield. The nullsecer then complains that they don't get enough for the massive amount of ABC ore they mined almost risk free.
Seems to me a lot of the complains come from the ability to easily and quickly project a lot of power far from home bases. You wouldn't quite have the same sea of blue if your ability to project power was massively limited. With more risk and fewer miners your ABC ores would suddenly skyrocket in value. Without a sea of blue you'll suddenly find far more targets to shoot. |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
383
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 03:03:00 -
[287] - Quote
True enough too, and also some nullseccers seem to want to nerf hisec, cos theyre are running out of cannon fodder, and they just don't realise being cannon fodder is not everybodys idea of a fun time. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2596
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 03:32:00 -
[288] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:True enough too, and also some nullseccers seem to want to nerf hisec, cos theyre are running out of cannon fodder, and they just don't realise being cannon fodder is not everybodys idea of a fun time. Hahaha, the only problem is the newbies grow up and eventually they're all using drakes and we need more frigates for frigate roams... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
60
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 06:55:00 -
[289] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:True enough too, and also some nullseccers seem to want to nerf hisec, cos theyre are running out of cannon fodder, and they just don't realise being cannon fodder is not everybodys idea of a fun time.
Game needs more masochists.
CCP need to give more incentive for masochists to join the game. How about giving clinically diagnosed masochists a discount on their game time? That would improve nullsec and lowsec A LOT!
|
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
132
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 14:54:00 -
[290] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:masternerdguy wrote:So you want an alliance to go through the expense and work of maintaining a functioning infrastructure, keeping it safe from enemy invaders, and freeporting all the bases? And they have to let you act like an antisocial animal just because you are there? Does that make sense? I don't "want" anything. When I get destroyed going through TEST space getting stuck in a bubble, I move on and try to not get stuck in it again. It's TEST's space, they wanted the bubble there, they put it there. I move on. I don't act like an antisocial animal, that's the point. When I see people in local, I wave as I'm passing through. When I went through in a venture, someone at a gate camp mentioned not being able to catch me, I replied I wasn't worth much and was passing through, then said bye as I left. The point is, when I am in someone else's space, I take a chance. I accept it, I move on. If an alliance wants to be NBSI and blows away everything that moves not blue, that's their fault, not mine. Doesn't matter if I'm in my little corner of NPC Null, or in highsec near Dodixie, or if I'm roaming in lowsec around Schoorasana. It all applies the same; you choose how you want your environment to be. The rest is just whining. Your venture could be an enemy spy, scout, or have a cyno. Or could be me playing in a frig and moving it deep into npc null (which it was) Who knows, you might be a PL alt, and there's titans in them there hills
Paranoia proves my point. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
924
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 16:48:00 -
[291] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. As I said elsewhere , many people play EVE to relax, manufacture stuff, hang out with friends, not to have an FC yelling at them for allegedly making the team lose a PVP match. If forced to PVP, many would rather leave.
Too bad you (like every other high sec genius who says that) have no proof of that. History has shown that people invested in a game will ADAPT rather than leave, and this history is why the CCP brass (rightly) said "watch what they do, not what they say".
People like you need to believe legions of other people agree with them (oh look the post I replied to got 12 likes in a game of 400,000 accounts). Sorry, it's just not true. And if high sec people are too narrowminded to see their is a problem, wel, that's just sad.
You see most people are NOT saying "buff null/low/wormholes" (another common mistake of the high sec paranoid, it's not just about null), because we aren't greedy entitled welfare queens. We simply would like some internal consistancy in the game we play, high sec as currently constituted doesn't fit. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2654
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 17:20:00 -
[292] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. As I said elsewhere , many people play EVE to relax, manufacture stuff, hang out with friends, not to have an FC yelling at them for allegedly making the team lose a PVP match. If forced to PVP, many would rather leave. Too bad you (like every other high sec genius who says that) have no proof of that. History has shown that people invested in a game will ADAPT rather than leave, and this history is why the CCP brass (rightly) said "watch what they do, not what they say". People like you need to believe legions of other people agree with them (oh look the post I replied to got 12 likes in a game of 400,000 accounts). Sorry, it's just not true. And if high sec people are too narrowminded to see their is a problem, wel, that's just sad. You see most people are NOT saying "buff null/low/wormholes" (another common mistake of the high sec paranoid, it's not just about null), because we aren't greedy entitled welfare queens. We simply would like some internal consistancy in the game we play, high sec as currently constituted doesn't fit. Highsec, exceptional and the exception. Come to highsec today~
CONCORDprotectionfreeofchargenotaxesleviesifyoumakeanaltcorporareaminerortrader Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6680
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 18:14:00 -
[293] - Quote
Look at these guys with their cosy little subsidised monopoly squealing like little piggies at the idea of some actual competition from nullsec industry.
Look at them.
Well at least we can be honest and up front about the real motivations behind opposing a nullsec industry rebalance. No need to pretend any more... MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
1096
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 18:15:00 -
[294] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Look at these guys with their cosy little subsidised monopoly squealing like little piggies at the idea of some actual competition from nullsec industry.
Look at them.
Well at least we can be honest and up front about the real motivations behind opposing a nullsec industry rebalance. No need to pretend any more...
But but but subsidized monopolies are good for the economy and help encourage low barriers to entry and healthy competition. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2661
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 18:26:00 -
[295] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Malcanis wrote:Look at these guys with their cosy little subsidised monopoly squealing like little piggies at the idea of some actual competition from nullsec industry.
Look at them.
Well at least we can be honest and up front about the real motivations behind opposing a nullsec industry rebalance. No need to pretend any more... But but but subsidized monopolies are good for the economy and help encourage low barriers to entry and healthy competition. Yep, EVE Online, Highsec is magic (so are the police) Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Hestia Mar
Calmaretto
61
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 18:57:00 -
[296] - Quote
Rain6635 wrote:it should be that high sec missions are run just for the standings, so pilots can travel through unmolested on their way back to jita. no LP or ISK rewards and bonus.
AND standings degrade over time... so you have to return to repair standings with missions periodically.
like going to the DMV or filing taxes, something that everyone has to do.
Don't be too parochial with your examples - no-one here in the UK ever goes to the DVLA (which is where we get our driving licences from).
There's no need since our licences last until we're 70...and more to the point the DVLA office is in Wales (and no-one goes there voluntarily)
In addition, the great majority of people in the UK don't file taxes, it's ripped out of our pay-packets at source. |
Mistah Ewedynao
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
305
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 19:08:00 -
[297] - Quote
I am all for a completely balanced industrial universe.
So let's have cap ship building and the ability to move them to where needed, moon goo and moon mining in...HIGH SEC!
Jump freighters too, to avoid those pesky bottlenecks.
Then we would be equal.
Well give you Concord too if you would like. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6683
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 19:10:00 -
[298] - Quote
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:I am all for a completely balanced industrial universe.
So let's have cap ship building and the ability to move them to where needed, moon goo and moon mining in...HIGH SEC!
Jump freighters too, to avoid those pesky bottlenecks.
Then we would be equal.
Well give you Concord too if you would like.
CSAAs in hi-sec would be glorious. Let's do this. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6683
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 19:11:00 -
[299] - Quote
I'm completely serious. Lets get the CSM on this or whatever it takes.
Because oh god, can you imagine the reaction of the same guys who go nuts about losing a Hulk or something trivial when their loaded up CSAA gets coathangered?
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
2984
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 19:15:00 -
[300] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:To tell you the truth, if they "slightly" nerf hisec, it wont make any difference to player distribution, hisec has been mini-nerfed for years (lvl 4 nerfs, datacore nerfs etc etc) people are still not going to nullsec, nullsec needs a MASSIVE overhaul to attract players, nullsec is the problem. It's not the content that's the problem it's the people. The people in nullsec have decided they love a field of blues so they can kick over the sand castles of the small up and coming groups.. Then the nullsec players turn around and complain about the lack of targets. Nullsec miners crunch ABC ores in massive numbers behind a huge blue shield. The nullsecer then complains that they don't get enough for the massive amount of ABC ore they mined almost risk free. Seems to me a lot of the complains come from the ability to easily and quickly project a lot of power far from home bases. You wouldn't quite have the same sea of blue if your ability to project power was massively limited. With more risk and fewer miners your ABC ores would suddenly skyrocket in value. Without a sea of blue you'll suddenly find far more targets to shoot. And yet we have no shortage of risk or people to shoot at. Your entire premise is flawed. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
|
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
399
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 20:25:00 -
[301] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. As I said elsewhere , many people play EVE to relax, manufacture stuff, hang out with friends, not to have an FC yelling at them for allegedly making the team lose a PVP match. If forced to PVP, many would rather leave. Too bad you (like every other high sec genius who says that) have no proof of that. History has shown that people invested in a game will ADAPT rather than leave, and this history is why the CCP brass (rightly) said "watch what they do, not what they say". People like you need to believe legions of other people agree with them (oh look the post I replied to got 12 likes in a game of 400,000 accounts). Sorry, it's just not true. And if high sec people are too narrowminded to see their is a problem, wel, that's just sad. You see most people are NOT saying "buff null/low/wormholes" (another common mistake of the high sec paranoid, it's not just about null), because we aren't greedy entitled welfare queens. We simply would like some internal consistancy in the game we play, high sec as currently constituted doesn't fit.
If you check my opening post, you'll see I said, "lousy player numbers during the last Hulkageddon before the Mining Barge Buff", Hisec was NERFED by Hulkageddon, Thousands left without adapting to broken mechanic where a 5 million isk ship took down a 200 miilion Barge. (Some did adapt, but ended up mining for peanuts/hour relatively speaking and having to spam dscan for hours on end, most not gonna waste time on that kinda brain numbing game play)
Hisec has been nerfed so many times, Null sec has been buffed so many times, if you keep nerfing hisec, only a matter of time before it breaks, and people are not going to log in to make a choice between making 1 million isk/hour in hisec , or go to nullsec to get podded within 5 minutes. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2666
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 20:28:00 -
[302] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:If you check my opening post, you'll see I said, "lousy player numbers during the last Hulkageddon before the Mining Barge Buff", Hisec was NERFED by Hulkageddon, Thousands left without adapting to broken mechanic where a 5 million isk ship took down a 200 miilion Barge.
Hisec has been nerfed so many times, Null sec has been buffed so many times, if you keep nerfing hisec, only a matter of time before it breaks, and people are not going to log in to make a choice between making 1 million isk/hour in hisec , or go to nullsec to get podded within 5 minutes. Hahahaha, look at that.
Just say people will unsub and that gankers are killing EVE. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2281
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 20:29:00 -
[303] - Quote
yeah you saying things doesn't make them true |
psycho freak
Snuff Box
154
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 22:35:00 -
[304] - Quote
null sec working as intended
player controled content
blob take space rince repeat few times then cry on forums to nurf other areas my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k
nop cant find it |
psycho freak
Snuff Box
163
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 22:52:00 -
[305] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Mistah Ewedynao wrote:I am all for a completely balanced industrial universe.
So let's have cap ship building and the ability to move them to where needed, moon goo and moon mining in...HIGH SEC!
Jump freighters too, to avoid those pesky bottlenecks.
Then we would be equal.
Well give you Concord too if you would like. CSAAs in hi-sec would be glorious. Let's do this.
if u want full industry rebalnce then yes
can allways war dec the corp building my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k
nop cant find it |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3558
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 00:55:00 -
[306] - Quote
"Let's quickly make hi sec crap and take 10 years to improve null sec by 1 ounce". Because this is what'll happen.
Sound business and far sight! Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
411
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 03:45:00 -
[307] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:"Let's quickly make hi sec crap and take 10 years to improve null sec by 1 ounce". Because this is what'll happen.
Sound business and far sight!
As I said null sec been buffed a zillion times, hisec nerfed, people wont adapt to a over-nerfed hisec, they'll leave, sad, cos 0.0 is just sooooo " fun" Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
195
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 03:53:00 -
[308] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I'm completely serious. Lets get the CSM on this or whatever it takes.
Because oh god, can you imagine the reaction of the same guys who go nuts about losing a Hulk or something trivial when their loaded up CSAA gets coathangered?
Titangeddon? |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2290
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 06:34:00 -
[309] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:"Let's quickly make hi sec crap and take 10 years to improve null sec by 1 ounce". Because this is what'll happen.
Sound business and far sight! Under my proposal, hisec will always have the manufacturing capacity to be able to replenish its own losses. That's more then what can be said about nullsec at present. Are you inferring that highseccers are so unable to adapt that the presence of competitive forces and scarcity far, far weaker then what nullseccers have been dealing with for a decade will make them quit in droves? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2699
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 06:36:00 -
[310] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:"Let's quickly make hi sec crap and take 10 years to improve null sec by 1 ounce". Because this is what'll happen.
Sound business and far sight! Under my proposal, hisec will always have the manufacturing capacity to be able to replenish its own losses. That's more then what can be said about nullsec at present. Are you inferring that highseccers are so unable to adapt that the presence of competitive forces and scarcity far, far weaker then what nullseccers have been dealing with for a decade will make them quit in droves? I believe this is indeed the case. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2290
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 06:39:00 -
[311] - Quote
Truly nobody holds the average highsec dweller in lower esteem then the carebear advocate. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2699
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 06:45:00 -
[312] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Truly nobody holds the average highsec dweller in lower esteem then the carebear advocate. They are great people who deserve to be able to use CONCORD like a safety crutch. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
2996
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 07:10:00 -
[313] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Malcanis wrote:I'm completely serious. Lets get the CSM on this or whatever it takes.
Because oh god, can you imagine the reaction of the same guys who go nuts about losing a Hulk or something trivial when their loaded up CSAA gets coathangered?
Titangeddon? Titanomachy Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3560
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 07:47:00 -
[314] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:"Let's quickly make hi sec crap and take 10 years to improve null sec by 1 ounce". Because this is what'll happen.
Sound business and far sight! Under my proposal, hisec will always have the manufacturing capacity to be able to replenish its own losses. That's more then what can be said about nullsec at present. Are you inferring that highseccers are so unable to adapt that the presence of competitive forces and scarcity far, far weaker then what nullseccers have been dealing with for a decade will make them quit in droves?
No, I am inferring that nerfing hi sec has not worked ever so far (L4 missions nerfed about 7 times since 2009) and maybe CCP should think about *why*. Because it's easy and fast to nerf, but hard to setup low and null to be enticing. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3560
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 07:50:00 -
[315] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:destiny2 wrote:If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of? You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop.
I'd buy 3 of those stations today! Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6689
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 09:11:00 -
[316] - Quote
psycho freak wrote:null sec working as intended
player controled content
blob take space rince repeat few times then cry on forums to nurf other areas
Yes thank you for reminding us of some useless cliches MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6689
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 09:12:00 -
[317] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:destiny2 wrote:If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of? You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop. I'd buy 3 of those stations today!
Really? OK contact Shirin in game, he'll be delighted to discuss terms. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2736
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 09:18:00 -
[318] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:psycho freak wrote:null sec working as intended
player controled content
blob take space rince repeat few times then cry on forums to nurf other areas Yes thank you for reminding us of some useless cliches What about
blue lists blobbers (oh you mentioned that) supercapitals falcon boosting alt afk cloaking local Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6691
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 09:20:00 -
[319] - Quote
psycho freak wrote:Malcanis wrote:Mistah Ewedynao wrote:I am all for a completely balanced industrial universe.
So let's have cap ship building and the ability to move them to where needed, moon goo and moon mining in...HIGH SEC!
Jump freighters too, to avoid those pesky bottlenecks.
Then we would be equal.
Well give you Concord too if you would like. CSAAs in hi-sec would be glorious. Let's do this. if u want full industry rebalnce then yes can allways war dec the corp building
Yes exactly
hi-sec CSAAs would reincarnate the hi-sec mercenary business overnight
hi-sec CSAAs!
hi-sec CSAAs!
LETS DO THIS MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6691
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 09:21:00 -
[320] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Malcanis wrote:psycho freak wrote:null sec working as intended
player controled content
blob take space rince repeat few times then cry on forums to nurf other areas Yes thank you for reminding us of some useless cliches What about blue lists blobbers (oh you mentioned that) supercapitals falcon boosting alt afk cloaking local
Ehehehe he regularly bangs on about those in the chat channel too, bless his heart
(It's OK to go on about supercaps though) MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6691
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 09:22:00 -
[321] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:"Let's quickly make hi sec crap and take 10 years to improve null sec by 1 ounce". Because this is what'll happen.
Sound business and far sight! Under my proposal, hisec will always have the manufacturing capacity to be able to replenish its own losses. That's more then what can be said about nullsec at present. Are you inferring that highseccers are so unable to adapt that the presence of competitive forces and scarcity far, far weaker then what nullseccers have been dealing with for a decade will make them quit in droves? No, I am inferring that nerfing hi sec has not worked ever so far (L4 missions nerfed about 7 times since 2009) .
Please list those 7 nerfs.
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2736
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 09:23:00 -
[322] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:psycho freak wrote:Malcanis wrote:Mistah Ewedynao wrote:I am all for a completely balanced industrial universe.
So let's have cap ship building and the ability to move them to where needed, moon goo and moon mining in...HIGH SEC!
Jump freighters too, to avoid those pesky bottlenecks.
Then we would be equal.
Well give you Concord too if you would like. CSAAs in hi-sec would be glorious. Let's do this. if u want full industry rebalnce then yes can allways war dec the corp building Yes exactly hi-sec CSAAs would reincarnate the hi-sec mercenary business overnight hi-sec CSAAs! hi-sec CSAAs! LETS DO THIS SOUNDS LIKE A DEAL.
Highsec CSAAs it shall be! First, GSF needs to get some sovereignty in Jita Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1292
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 09:33:00 -
[323] - Quote
SmilingVagrant wrote:They made it so you didn't have to pack into a few systems in eve to get the quality agents. No wait that was a buff. That very much depends on your definition Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6692
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 09:38:00 -
[324] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:SmilingVagrant wrote:They made it so you didn't have to pack into a few systems in eve to get the quality agents. No wait that was a buff. That very much depends on your definition
Well yes, you could define it as a huge buff or an enormous buff. Or even a great buff. So many definitions! MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1292
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 09:44:00 -
[325] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Frying Doom wrote:SmilingVagrant wrote:They made it so you didn't have to pack into a few systems in eve to get the quality agents. No wait that was a buff. That very much depends on your definition Well yes, you could define it as a huge buff or an enormous buff. Or even a great buff. So many definitions! Or in the case of people with high standings the amounts went down as did the LP. so no not a buff in all cases. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3568
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 12:10:00 -
[326] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:destiny2 wrote:If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of? You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop. I'd buy 3 of those stations today! Really? OK contact Shirin in game, he'll be delighted to discuss terms.
He can't sell me 3 hi sec stations for 20B a pop. I'd love to set them names and other things. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3568
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 12:11:00 -
[327] - Quote
SmilingVagrant wrote:They made it so you didn't have to pack into a few systems in eve to get the quality agents. No wait that was a buff.
... which I'd revert in a second. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6052
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 12:22:00 -
[328] - Quote
heh, the "everyone wins" welfare philosophy is still dominant on these forums ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. An idea for improving corp management |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3568
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 12:25:00 -
[329] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:"Let's quickly make hi sec crap and take 10 years to improve null sec by 1 ounce". Because this is what'll happen.
Sound business and far sight! Under my proposal, hisec will always have the manufacturing capacity to be able to replenish its own losses. That's more then what can be said about nullsec at present. Are you inferring that highseccers are so unable to adapt that the presence of competitive forces and scarcity far, far weaker then what nullseccers have been dealing with for a decade will make them quit in droves? No, I am inferring that nerfing hi sec has not worked ever so far (L4 missions nerfed about 7 times since 2009) . Please list those 7 nerfs.
M0 removal off large wrecks Across the board reduction of bounties then later Meta 0 removal off all wrecks => The first 3 are due to Kerfira + me, feel free to EvE search 2010 mission forum posts. Removal of L5 missions from hi sec Reduction in numbers and replacement of medium end roids with veldspar and scordite, Removal of drone goo, now drone missions are even worse payout AND became a big ISK faucet. Now, that nerf was really due but it's still a nerf. Not really a nerf but a screwup: buffing hi sec agents to Q20 has been a bad buff to ISK faucet and a nerf to LP. Dodixie and surroundings lost plenty. SOE combat agent gone, another bad decision to put once again stuff in already too good Caldari space. then later LP indirect nerf through FW (that expecially hits hi sec L4)
These are the first that come to my mind, there have been probably others.
Sleepers AI drones are also a general PvE nerf that expecially impacts content not designed for such AI, mainly missions, this includes L4 hi sec missions as the CCP indicated target (AFK drone dominix).
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3568
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 12:27:00 -
[330] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Frying Doom wrote:SmilingVagrant wrote:They made it so you didn't have to pack into a few systems in eve to get the quality agents. No wait that was a buff. That very much depends on your definition Well yes, you could define it as a huge buff or an enormous buff. Or even a great buff. So many definitions!
Or you could define it as an unwarranted sh!t decision by CCP, expecially those who did not roll Caldari.
They incremented the totally unneeded ISK faucet while causing a flood of LP (later worsened for some items by FW) making player generated "content" (trading the LP) less important and NPC faucet more important. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
63
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 13:23:00 -
[331] - Quote
Andski wrote:heh, the "everyone wins" welfare philosophy is still dominant on these forums
Totally contrary to the spirit of Eve which is "everyone loses. Except CCP."
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Hestia Mar
Calmaretto
62
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 13:32:00 -
[332] - Quote
Just get rid of hi-sec, lo-sec, null; put in place an effective concord across random systems, and make entry points into systems random so that entry gates can't be camped (although exit gates can).
Simples!
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Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
246
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Posted - 2012.12.30 13:36:00 -
[333] - Quote
Andski wrote:heh, the "everyone wins" welfare philosophy is still dominant on these forums
and what is wrong with that? |
Dave stark
1288
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 13:49:00 -
[334] - Quote
Randolph Rothstein wrote:Andski wrote:heh, the "everyone wins" welfare philosophy is still dominant on these forums and what is wrong with that?
because the very definition of winner means not every one can be a winner. "100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system." |
Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
247
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 13:51:00 -
[335] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Randolph Rothstein wrote:Andski wrote:heh, the "everyone wins" welfare philosophy is still dominant on these forums and what is wrong with that? because the very definition of winner means not every one can be a winner.
do you think this is the reason why they are so passive agressive?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6706
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 14:59:00 -
[336] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:destiny2 wrote:If their going to nerf anything nerf null get rid of the tech moons, make it so people actually have to work for their isk How much "work" did hi-sec players put in to get all those invulnerable stations which they can't be locked out of? You don't get to complain about tech moons in null until stations in hi-sec cost you 20 bill a pop. I'd buy 3 of those stations today! Really? OK contact Shirin in game, he'll be delighted to discuss terms. He can't sell me 3 hi sec stations for 20B a pop. I'd love to set them names and other things.
Oh, that's a shame. Still, have you considered that if you buy now and CCP buff outposts, the value of your investment will rise enormously? MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6706
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 15:02:00 -
[337] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:Frying Doom wrote:SmilingVagrant wrote:They made it so you didn't have to pack into a few systems in eve to get the quality agents. No wait that was a buff. That very much depends on your definition Well yes, you could define it as a huge buff or an enormous buff. Or even a great buff. So many definitions! Or you could define it as an unwarranted sh!t decision by CCP, expecially those who did not roll Caldari. They incremented the totally unneeded ISK faucet while causing a flood of LP (later worsened for some items by FW) making player generated "content" (trading the LP) less important and NPC faucet more important.
Are missions an ISK faucet? They're certainly a wealth faucet, but LP intrinisically a massive ISK sink.
Still, it's going to be hard for you to convince me that a change to missioning that by your own account massively increased the amount of wealth generated by missioning was a "nerf".
If that's your idea of a "nerf" then we in 0.0 could do with a few "nerfs" like that, please. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3575
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 18:59:00 -
[338] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:Frying Doom wrote:SmilingVagrant wrote:They made it so you didn't have to pack into a few systems in eve to get the quality agents. No wait that was a buff. That very much depends on your definition Well yes, you could define it as a huge buff or an enormous buff. Or even a great buff. So many definitions! Or you could define it as an unwarranted sh!t decision by CCP, expecially those who did not roll Caldari. They incremented the totally unneeded ISK faucet while causing a flood of LP (later worsened for some items by FW) making player generated "content" (trading the LP) less important and NPC faucet more important. Are missions an ISK faucet? They're certainly a wealth faucet, but LP intrinisically a massive ISK sink. Still, it's going to be hard for you to convince me that a change to missioning that by your own account massively increased the amount of wealth generated by missioning was a "nerf". If that's your idea of a "nerf" then we in 0.0 could do with a few "nerfs" like that, please.
Before the LP dilution and FW competition, a smart missioneer could make a VERY nice side income. The worst module I'd sell would yield me 54M. SOE launchers yielded 45M but were coming hard and fast due to the moderate LP requirements. Some Amarr agents yielded 3300 ISK per LP. Placing yourself in a decent location would always get you 2-3 agents to use, even in Minmatar space where low sec is widespread.
A buff from Q18 to Q20 gave a very moderate ISK increase while diluting LP. The FW competition affected LP as well. Net result is a bad change for the game (ISK faucet increase, player made content decrease) and a nerf on wealth for all the missioneers who knew to run the 0.5 sec Q18 agents, for decent corps yielding good ISK / LP.
It's a buff for the terribles who ran brainless navy missions in 0.7 sec. But those are those who made 30M per hour (now I don't know), they are self nerfed just for existing. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
468
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 19:11:00 -
[339] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Before the LP dilution and FW competition, a smart missioneer could make a VERY nice side income. The worst module I'd sell would yield me 54M. SOE launchers yielded 45M but were coming hard and fast due to the moderate LP requirements. Some Amarr agents yielded 3300 ISK per LP. Placing yourself in a decent location would always get you 2-3 agents to use, even in Minmatar space where low sec is widespread.
A buff from Q18 to Q20 gave a very moderate ISK increase while diluting LP. The FW competition affected LP as well. Net result is a bad change for the game (ISK faucet increase, player made content decrease) and a nerf on wealth for all the missioneers who knew to run the 0.5 sec Q18 agents, for decent corps yielding good ISK / LP.
It's a buff for the terribles who ran brainless navy missions in 0.7 sec.
That was a very long time ago. Very much outdated now. Yet it is still the backbone of most nerf high sec arguments. The Nerf it and buff it shell game goes on but we the players beat CCP many times already. Every time they nerf, we beat them. Every time they buff, we beat them. We out played their game. Considering the last time EVE saw real content additions, I'd say they got last laugh though because we keep grinding it over. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3575
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 19:16:00 -
[340] - Quote
Skydell wrote: That was a very long time ago. Very much outdated now. Yet it is still the backbone of most nerf high sec arguments. The Nerf it and buff it shell game goes on but we the players beat CCP many times already. Every time they nerf, we beat them. Every time they buff, we beat them. We out played their game. Considering the last time EVE saw real content additions, I'd say they got last laugh though because we keep grinding it over.
Well, "long time" for a slow developing game like EvE with stuff like COSMOS unchanged since... ever is not a fundamental factor. Plus it happened more or less in the timeline I posted above so it's around 2 years ago which is within my 3 year window I considered for listing nerfs and bad changes. (Window I chose because it's when I started the game). Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6063
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 19:58:00 -
[341] - Quote
Randolph Rothstein wrote:Andski wrote:heh, the "everyone wins" welfare philosophy is still dominant on these forums and what is wrong with that?
this is not the terrible welfare MMO you came from, for instance ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. An idea for improving corp management |
Garreth Vlox
Shield and Shovel Mining Corp
114
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 22:40:00 -
[342] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. As I said elsewhere , many people play EVE to relax, manufacture stuff, hang out with friends, not to have an FC yelling at them for allegedly making the team lose a PVP match. If forced to PVP, many would rather leave.
No one said they have to PVP, what they are saying is if you aren't going to work for it you shouldn't get free access to the best processing, research facilites and production in the game for almost no cost and next to no risk. The LULZ Boat. |
Mars Theran
Red Rogue Squadron
1567
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 00:35:00 -
[343] - Quote
Thomas Gore wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Thomas Gore wrote:That's a great attitude there. Ultima Online's greatest strength was that there were so many different paths you could take. Many of them completely doable with zero PvP experience. Which is exactly what EVE should NOT be. Reading this makes me angry. Thomas Gore wrote:CCP will need to start adding meaningful content in their game soon. Tweaks and fixes are only going to keep people playing a while. And by content I mean sandbox content. Tools for the players to create their own content.
"People enjoy doing missions" = missions are meaningful content, apparently. No. If I want to force you to PVP, I will, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. This is a PVP game. The only thing you can do to prevent PVP in this game is not undock or buy anything on the market, ever. You need to train up your reading comprehension skills and/or understand first how UO worked. It had very similar aggression methods and the world was likewise divided into "safe" zones and unsafe ones. Anyone could attack anyone, anywhere, but in safe zones "unlawful" aggression was punished with a quick death. Sound familiar? You could be a crafter and never leave the safe zones, but everything else carried a risk of being "ganked". However, my main point is UO was not just a PvP game. It was much more and it's exactly what EVE needs to be too, in order to survive. Yes you can force me to "PvP" in Highsec and I agree that ability should never be taken away from you. In fact, I think highsec currently is a very safe place and there is no need to increase its safety, nor is there a reason to bring those safety methods to low or null sec. You just need to realize there is and needs to be more to EVE than just PvP. Darkfall is a game that also has similar aggression methods and safe and unsafe areas, but it lacks any meaningful PvE content and is basically just a big FFA Full Loot PvP arena. It's not doing well. In fact, the creators just redesigned the whole game and are relaunching it early next year, adding more safe areas and stuff to do for players who don't enjoy PvP all the time. Finally, I don't know where you got '"People enjoy doing missions" = missions are meaningful content, apparently.'. That's not what I said at all. I said that meaningful content should be sandbox content. It could be anything from people being able to build secret bases in high sec deadspace pockets, to giving tools for null players to make their Empires more worth living in and more organized. In fact, I really don't want to see more ready-canned PvE content such as Incursions in EVE. They are exactly the wrong direction for a sandbox game. Hope I cleared things up for you a bit.
You refer to UO as was and yet you state that EVE needs to be like it in order to survive. There is something wrong with that logic if you don't mind my saying so. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6063
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 02:44:00 -
[344] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:You refer to UO as was and yet you state that EVE needs to be like it in order to survive. There is something wrong with that logic if you don't mind my saying so.
"UO is dead, therefore eve online should be a ****** welfare MMO" ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. An idea for improving corp management |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
440
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 09:38:00 -
[345] - Quote
I for one would love to see new content in Null that'll inspire me to go there, at the moment theres None, unless i wanna go there to get instapopped, after flying through dozens of empty systems
. Inspire us Hisec dwellers with something CCP. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6730
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 10:17:00 -
[346] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:I for one would love to see new content in Null that'll inspire me to go there, at the moment theres None, unless i wanna go there to get instapopped, after flying through dozens of empty systems
. Inspire us Hisec dwellers with something CCP.
I'm pleased to see that you're finally on the same page as those of us who live there. The foundation of a lively, interesting and diverse sov 0.0 is the viability of lots of different niches in the player ecology. Manufacturing, R&D, invention and resource gathering are the base of that ecological pyramid. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1415
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 10:34:00 -
[347] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:I for one would love to see new content in Null that'll inspire me to go there, at the moment theres None, unless i wanna go there to get instapopped, after flying through dozens of empty systems
. Inspire us Hisec dwellers with something CCP. I'm pleased to see that you're finally on the same page as those of us who live there. The foundation of a lively, interesting and diverse sov 0.0 is the viability of lots of different niches in the player ecology. Manufacturing, R&D, invention and resource gathering are the base of that ecological pyramid. *clears throat* You mean the top of the pyramid standing over the bodies of those they supply surely. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
64
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 10:57:00 -
[348] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:I for one would love to see new content in Null that'll inspire me to go there, at the moment theres None, unless i wanna go there to get instapopped, after flying through dozens of empty systems
. Inspire us Hisec dwellers with something CCP. I'm pleased to see that you're finally on the same page as those of us who live there. The foundation of a lively, interesting and diverse sov 0.0 is the viability of lots of different niches in the player ecology. Manufacturing, R&D, invention and resource gathering are the base of that ecological pyramid.
You mean the plankton, right?
And in this game mostly made up of the masochists who also provide the entertainment for the sadists higher up them in the 'food chain'.
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Ivana Twinkle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
293
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 11:07:00 -
[349] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. As I said elsewhere , many people play EVE to relax, manufacture stuff, hang out with friends, not to have an FC yelling at them for allegedly making the team lose a PVP match. If forced to PVP, many would rather leave.
Not every FC is Makalu. |
FDIC Agent
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 11:11:00 -
[350] - Quote
It is people that act immature that keeps everyone mostly out of null space. After all who would put up with this. What you get in null space. |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6730
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 11:15:00 -
[351] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Malcanis wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:I for one would love to see new content in Null that'll inspire me to go there, at the moment theres None, unless i wanna go there to get instapopped, after flying through dozens of empty systems
. Inspire us Hisec dwellers with something CCP. I'm pleased to see that you're finally on the same page as those of us who live there. The foundation of a lively, interesting and diverse sov 0.0 is the viability of lots of different niches in the player ecology. Manufacturing, R&D, invention and resource gathering are the base of that ecological pyramid. You mean the plankton, right? And in this game mostly made up of the masochists who also provide the entertainment for the sadists higher up them in the 'food chain'.
Thanks for providing a meaningless cliche. It really helped to move the discussion along, wasn't an ignorant generalisation and didn't insult anyone's intelligence. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6730
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 11:16:00 -
[352] - Quote
There are multiple aspects to this situation, they all need resolving seperately,fixing just one of them isn't going to solve anything, and rebalancing them is going to be delicate and difficult.
(1) Sov 0.0 simply does not and cannot have sufficient manufacturing capacity to supply itself with the current outpost mechanics. There simply aren't the available production lines. Thus, simply "nerfing hi-sec" won't solve the problem. Even if CCP deleted hi-sec tomorrow, sov industry still wouldn't be viable. It would just move to lo-sec or NPC 0.0. Player built outposts need a complete rebalance.
(2) Hi-sec is virtually "perfect"; there is only one constraint to manufacturing and industry in hi-sec and that is the requirement to purchase Zydrine, Megacyte and Mercoxit from 0.0 or W-space sources. As these minerals are the ones with the lowest physical volume, they're also by far the easiest to transport, so even here, hi-sec has the advantage. With the sole exception of high end minerals, hi-sec is currently either better than anywhere else or else unbeatable (assuming we don't advocate silliness like 110% refine rates) for manufacturing, R&D, Invention, trading and so on. Even if 0.0 was "good" for these activities, hi-sec is arguably too good at all of them.
(3) Productive activity in sov 0.0 operates with some intrinsic costs that mean it has to be "better" than hi-sec to be viable; the productive output of a 0.0 station has to be better than that of a hi-sec system by at least the cost of the sov bills in order for that production to be competitive. To make this clear: let's imagine that CCP make sov outposts have the same number of production lines as a good hi-sec station, and both can make, say, 100 battleships a month. If the sov bill for the 0.0 system to 750M ISK per month, then the cost of producing those battleships needs to be at least 7.5M ISK less in the sov outpost for its production to be competitive.
Whether this difference is best achieved by making hi-sec stations less efficient or sov outposts more efficient is a matter for the economists to decide. And in practice there are quite a few other 'hidden' costs to operating productive activities in 0.0; delays caused by hostile presence, increased losses from same, additional transport overhead due to the 1 station per system limit, the actuarial cost of the possibility of losing the station and the space, plus the (very significant) sunk costs of building the station in the first place and of establishing the sov structures.
So it's easy to imagine that after taking all these into account that our imaginary sov outpost would actually need a 15M or 20M ISK production cost per battleship or BPC run or invention job efficiency advantage to be viable in the long run.
Please bear in mind that the numbers I have used are purely for example purposes, and the actual percentages might be lower or higher. However my instinct is that the real number will be at least ~15%. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1420
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 11:20:00 -
[353] - Quote
FDIC Agent wrote:It is people that act immature that keeps everyone mostly out of null space. After all who would put up with this. What you get in null space. Old Old Old news that was blown out of the water to remove a certain chairman.
Nothing to see here move along people. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1341
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 12:24:00 -
[354] - Quote
Who are you trying to convince? You, us, or CCP?
Because CCP has already said its not working as intended. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
191
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 15:43:00 -
[355] - Quote
Garreth Vlox wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. As I said elsewhere , many people play EVE to relax, manufacture stuff, hang out with friends, not to have an FC yelling at them for allegedly making the team lose a PVP match. If forced to PVP, many would rather leave. No one said they have to PVP, what they are saying is if you aren't going to work for it you shouldn't get free access to the best processing, research facilites and production in the game for almost no cost and next to no risk.
Why not? Everyone gets it from day one. Some choose to leave it willingly. And it isn't like those same people can't come back, or don't. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
191
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 15:55:00 -
[356] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:There are multiple aspects to this situation, they all need resolving seperately,fixing just one of them isn't going to solve anything, and rebalancing them is going to be delicate and difficult.
(1) Sov 0.0 simply does not and cannot have sufficient manufacturing capacity to supply itself with the current outpost mechanics. There simply aren't the available production lines. Thus, simply "nerfing hi-sec" won't solve the problem. Even if CCP deleted hi-sec tomorrow, sov industry still wouldn't be viable. It would just move to lo-sec or NPC 0.0. Player built outposts need a complete rebalance.
(2) Hi-sec is virtually "perfect"; there is only one constraint to manufacturing and industry in hi-sec and that is the requirement to purchase Zydrine, Megacyte and Mercoxit from 0.0 or W-space sources. As these minerals are the ones with the lowest physical volume, they're also by far the easiest to transport, so even here, hi-sec has the advantage. With the sole exception of high end minerals, hi-sec is currently either better than anywhere else or else unbeatable (assuming we don't advocate silliness like 110% refine rates) for manufacturing, R&D, Invention, trading and so on. Even if 0.0 was "good" for these activities, hi-sec is arguably too good at all of them.
(3) Productive activity in sov 0.0 operates with some intrinsic costs that mean it has to be "better" than hi-sec to be viable; the productive output of a 0.0 station has to be better than that of a hi-sec system by at least the cost of the sov bills in order for that production to be competitive. To make this clear: let's imagine that CCP make sov outposts have the same number of production lines as a good hi-sec station, and both can make, say, 100 battleships a month. If the sov bill for the 0.0 system to 750M ISK per month, then the cost of producing those battleships needs to be at least 7.5M ISK less in the sov outpost for its production to be competitive.
Whether this difference is best achieved by making hi-sec stations less efficient or sov outposts more efficient is a matter for the economists to decide. And in practice there are quite a few other 'hidden' costs to operating productive activities in 0.0; delays caused by hostile presence, increased losses from same, additional transport overhead due to the 1 station per system limit, the actuarial cost of the possibility of losing the station and the space, plus the (very significant) sunk costs of building the station in the first place and of establishing the sov structures.
So it's easy to imagine that after taking all these into account that our imaginary sov outpost would actually need a 15M or 20M ISK production cost per battleship or BPC run or invention job efficiency advantage to be viable in the long run.
Please bear in mind that the numbers I have used are purely for example purposes, and the actual percentages might be lower or higher. However my instinct is that the real number will be at least ~15%.
Is this to say that CCP needs to change things around to fit the logistic needs of people who decide to leave the benefits they already provide?
Just seems to be too much "to be competitive" here. I think what needs to be reiterated and kept in mind... is that people who choose to live in null were not kicked out of high sec. Also, as it is just "one world" (shard) and no server seperation, players can freely interact and move between both sides. Which I understand they already do.
If anything needs to be buffed or nerfed, it should be something that equally affects everyone (mechanic), not a logistic need of a few who don't want to make the trek, or see it as "unfair" to someone else who chose a different path to play on.
Highsec vs nullsec competition is just.... well, wrong.
EDIT- Just to clarify, the reason I'm posting this is because it is obvious it will be affecting some others more so than everyone equally, so if there is a mechanics problem, I'm all for the change. If it isn't working as intended, I'm all for the change. If it's to satisfy someone's agenda... well, that I don't agree with. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6744
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 16:15:00 -
[357] - Quote
What you're saying is that it's OK for hi-sec to be grossly overpowered because anyone can use hisec and no-one is forced to stop using it. In other words, why should CCP waste time and resources enabling playstyles you personally are not interested in?
I will give you credit in that you are frank and open about your indifference to game balance and the enjoyment of the game of people who do different things than you in it. It saves a lot of tedious arguing about what you really meant, and for that I'm sure we all thank you.
However, those of us taking a larger view are definitely going to disagree with you on this fundamental principle MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3026
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 16:17:00 -
[358] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:What you're saying is that it's OK for hi-sec to be grossly overpowered because anyone can use hisec and no-one is forced to stop using it. In other words, why should CCP waste time and resources enabling playstyles you personally are not interested in?
I will give you credit in that you are frank and open about your indifference to game balance and the enjoyment of the game of people who do different things than you in it. It saves a lot of tedious arguing about what you really meant, and for that I'm sure we all thank you.
However, those of us taking a larger view are definitely going to disagree with you on this fundamental principle Who cares about game balance, ~my highsec experience~ is something you can all enjoy.
AFKing a mackinaw on ice in highsec is easy, low risk and fun. Try it. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3026
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 16:19:00 -
[359] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:You mean the plankton, right?
And in this game mostly made up of the masochists who also provide the entertainment for the sadists higher up them in the 'food chain'. Thanks for providing a meaningless cliche. It really helped to move the discussion along, wasn't an ignorant generalisation and didn't insult anyone's intelligence. My intelligence being insulted on GD, no way... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6744
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 16:22:00 -
[360] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Malcanis wrote:What you're saying is that it's OK for hi-sec to be grossly overpowered because anyone can use hisec and no-one is forced to stop using it. In other words, why should CCP waste time and resources enabling playstyles you personally are not interested in?
I will give you credit in that you are frank and open about your indifference to game balance and the enjoyment of the game of people who do different things than you in it. It saves a lot of tedious arguing about what you really meant, and for that I'm sure we all thank you.
However, those of us taking a larger view are definitely going to disagree with you on this fundamental principle Who cares about game balance, ~my highsec experience~ is something you can all enjoy. AFKing a mackinaw on ice in highsec is easy, low risk and fun. Try it.
Agreed, if there's one thing that should be discouraged in a sandbox game, it's incentivizing players to move out of the starter areas and create their own idea of a community. That sort of thing needs to be harshly discouraged, and CCP have done a good job of that. Let's hope they continue to quell any dangerous, subversize and destructive notions that any of us should do anything differently to any of the others! MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
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Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
191
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 16:40:00 -
[361] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:What you're saying is that it's OK for hi-sec to be grossly overpowered because anyone can use hisec and no-one is forced to stop using it. In other words, why should CCP waste time and resources enabling playstyles you personally are not interested in?
I will give you credit in that you are frank and open about your indifference to game balance and the enjoyment of the game of people who do different things than you in it. It saves a lot of tedious arguing about what you really meant, and for that I'm sure we all thank you.
However, those of us taking a larger view are definitely going to disagree with you on this fundamental principle
I think you are taking a bit too much of a passive aggressive approach assuming what I want because I asked you a question.
You seem to think I'm defending highsec. I actually spend about equal amount of time in all 3 securities (would rather spend more time in w-space but alas not at this time).
And I'm not indifferent to game balance. I firmly believe it doesn't exist, nor should it. Balance is a word used for carebears. It's a mentality used for people who think not only can do what they want, it should be given to them.
Eve is MEANT to be unbalanced. That's the point! It's a paper rock scissors game. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
191
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 16:49:00 -
[362] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Malcanis wrote:What you're saying is that it's OK for hi-sec to be grossly overpowered because anyone can use hisec and no-one is forced to stop using it. In other words, why should CCP waste time and resources enabling playstyles you personally are not interested in?
I will give you credit in that you are frank and open about your indifference to game balance and the enjoyment of the game of people who do different things than you in it. It saves a lot of tedious arguing about what you really meant, and for that I'm sure we all thank you.
However, those of us taking a larger view are definitely going to disagree with you on this fundamental principle Who cares about game balance, ~my highsec experience~ is something you can all enjoy. AFKing a mackinaw on ice in highsec is easy, low risk and fun. Try it. Agreed, if there's one thing that should be discouraged in a sandbox game, it's incentivizing players to move out of the starter areas and create their own idea of a community. That sort of thing needs to be harshly discouraged, and CCP have done a good job of that. Let's hope they continue to quell any dangerous, subversize and destructive notions that any of us should do anything differently to any of the others!
Why? If it's a sandbox and you're given choices, then why should you be incentivized to leave? If anyone/thing wants you away and gone, why have that there in the first place? There's already rules about terrorizing newbie pilots, but nothing saying it's wrong to do incursions/lvl 4 missions, manufacture or have trade hubs in highsec.
So now you are indeed taking the sandbox element out of the picture thinking that high/low/null is a set value of "level" of gameplay.
Guess what, it isn't. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6756
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 16:56:00 -
[363] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Malcanis wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Malcanis wrote:What you're saying is that it's OK for hi-sec to be grossly overpowered because anyone can use hisec and no-one is forced to stop using it. In other words, why should CCP waste time and resources enabling playstyles you personally are not interested in?
I will give you credit in that you are frank and open about your indifference to game balance and the enjoyment of the game of people who do different things than you in it. It saves a lot of tedious arguing about what you really meant, and for that I'm sure we all thank you.
However, those of us taking a larger view are definitely going to disagree with you on this fundamental principle Who cares about game balance, ~my highsec experience~ is something you can all enjoy. AFKing a mackinaw on ice in highsec is easy, low risk and fun. Try it. Agreed, if there's one thing that should be discouraged in a sandbox game, it's incentivizing players to move out of the starter areas and create their own idea of a community. That sort of thing needs to be harshly discouraged, and CCP have done a good job of that. Let's hope they continue to quell any dangerous, subversize and destructive notions that any of us should do anything differently to any of the others! Why? If it's a sandbox and you're given choices, then why should you be incentivized to leave? If anyone/thing wants you away and gone, why have that there in the first place? There's already rules about terrorizing newbie pilots, but nothing saying it's wrong to do incursions/lvl 4 missions, manufacture or have trade hubs in highsec. So now you are indeed taking the sandbox element out of the picture thinking that high/low/null is a set value of "level" of gameplay. Guess what, it isn't.
It's like you're using words that I'm reading, but we think they mean very different things. Apparently making 0.0 industry remotely as good as that in hi-sec is "saying it's wrong to do incursions/lvl 4 missions, manufacture or have trade hubs in highsec" in your lexicon, and I just can't communicate across a barrier that wide.
Well I doubt we're going to agree on anything, and I'm even more sceptical that I'll get anything useful out of discussing this any further with you, so fly safe.
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
195
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 17:06:00 -
[364] - Quote
Double post. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
195
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 17:11:00 -
[365] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Malcanis wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Malcanis wrote:What you're saying is that it's OK for hi-sec to be grossly overpowered because anyone can use hisec and no-one is forced to stop using it. In other words, why should CCP waste time and resources enabling playstyles you personally are not interested in?
I will give you credit in that you are frank and open about your indifference to game balance and the enjoyment of the game of people who do different things than you in it. It saves a lot of tedious arguing about what you really meant, and for that I'm sure we all thank you.
However, those of us taking a larger view are definitely going to disagree with you on this fundamental principle Who cares about game balance, ~my highsec experience~ is something you can all enjoy. AFKing a mackinaw on ice in highsec is easy, low risk and fun. Try it. Agreed, if there's one thing that should be discouraged in a sandbox game, it's incentivizing players to move out of the starter areas and create their own idea of a community. That sort of thing needs to be harshly discouraged, and CCP have done a good job of that. Let's hope they continue to quell any dangerous, subversize and destructive notions that any of us should do anything differently to any of the others! Why? If it's a sandbox and you're given choices, then why should you be incentivized to leave? If anyone/thing wants you away and gone, why have that there in the first place? There's already rules about terrorizing newbie pilots, but nothing saying it's wrong to do incursions/lvl 4 missions, manufacture or have trade hubs in highsec. So now you are indeed taking the sandbox element out of the picture thinking that high/low/null is a set value of "level" of gameplay. Guess what, it isn't. It's like you're using words that I'm reading, but we think they mean very different things. Apparently making 0.0 industry remotely as good as that in hi-sec is "saying it's wrong to do incursions/lvl 4 missions, manufacture or have trade hubs in highsec" in your lexicon, and I just can't communicate across a barrier that wide. Well I doubt we're going to agree on anything, and I'm even more sceptical that I'll get anything useful out of discussing this any further with you, so fly safe.
"Apparently" is where you make things go wrong when you post. Again you're passively aggressively insinuating things I'm saying. My response to what you said is exactly that; a respo9nse to what you said. It's not an ideal. That's where your discussion goes wrong, you wish to lump things together into some sort of kneejerk response and therefore makes it seem like you aren't trying for any sort of impartial "balance" (which shouldn't exist anyways).
You don't have to take away from 1 thing to give to another! Trust me, I care more about NON highsec than I care about highsec, I just realize that there is a symbiotic relationship between all the different areas of space and focuses are stronger in one than another, like I did mention earlier about it being paper/rock/scissors which I also noticed you tended to conveniently forget in using my "incursions/lvl 4 missions..." quote as being some sort of anti null industry.
Make a good point, and I'll agree with it. But until then...
Fair enough Malcanis, fly safe.
Just keep in mind I will reply to your posts as I would anyone else's if they seem to be jaded towards one side more than the other one any sort of "versus" or "balance" comes into play.
o/ "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3031
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 17:12:00 -
[366] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:RAGE QU1T wrote:Confirming, no one likes EMO raging FC's spamming alliance crying for more Logi's, furthermore people are tired of CTA online So don't join an alliance that demands you to play on their terms? Confirming that FC "need more logi" tears are the best. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
202
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 17:13:00 -
[367] - Quote
In eve, high sec nerfs you! All the high end ores are not present in high sec. You can already make much more isk in null faster with very little effort.
If there is something that needs nerfing, are defenetly those high ends moons in null. There is way too much PASSIVE isk made from moons in null |
Kuranei
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 10:22:00 -
[368] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:RAGE QU1T wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Some Rando wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If CCP nerfs hisec, what have the hisec dwellers/industrialists got left A lot of other space to do business in. High-sec should be left to new players and the little coddled children who can't handle conflict in a PvP game. As I said elsewhere , many people play EVE to relax, manufacture stuff, hang out with friends, not to have an FC yelling at them for allegedly making the team lose a PVP match. If forced to PVP, many would rather leave. Confirming, no one likes EMO raging FC's spamming alliance crying for more Logi's, furthermore people are tired of CTA online So don't join an alliance that demands you to play on their terms?
Its not thier terms, When ever your are in a war in null sec this will happen on a repeated basis. Even more so when you are getting pummled.
its only a few chilled FCs out there that can take the pressure of losing space ships in a game and not emo rage. and Archie happen to be one who could. not to be said for -A- FC. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1547
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 10:46:00 -
[369] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:In eve, high sec nerfs you! All the high end ores are not present in high sec. You can already make much more isk in null faster with very little effort.
If there is something that needs nerfing, are defenetly those high ends moons in null. There is way too much PASSIVE isk made from moons in null I would like to state that the higher income available in Null is in large parts of SOV Null and it is mostly for people who like shooting things.
For people making things it is, well, crap.
It is crap all over space at -0.0, you increase your risk to make more isk but at the end of the day you end up spending more time building and mining with your hi-sec "alts" than on your supposed main characters.
I am one of the people that would like smaller alliances to have an easier time in Null and for Industry people to have a real reason to go there.
Lets face it I can make pretty good isk running Radar sites in a WH or plexes in Null but its all shooting red crosses which from my point of view is crap and with industry you shoot at the rocks and soon enough someone will shoot you, so not only do you not make enough money but you can lose money because the base amount is crappy, especially if you add in the massive extra risk you actually take exporting goods.
NPC facilities are so good why does anyone really want their own POS besides when you have no choice or you are impatient to research a BPO other than that an NPC facility is the way to go atm.
NPC facilities are set up like EVE has been in newbie friendly mode for 10 years and everyone is a newbie.
Oh and yes Super AFK Moon mining needs to die in a bloody accident. (People can hardly complain about AFK mining when there are POSs AFK mining) Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1547
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 10:57:00 -
[370] - Quote
Wikipedia wrote: Open world From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Sandbox (video games))
An open world is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives.[1]
The term "free roam" is also used, as is "sandbox" and "free-roaming".[2][3] "Open world" and "free-roaming" suggest the absence of artificial barriers,[4] in contrast to the invisible walls and loading screens that are common in linear level designs. The term "sandbox" is often used incorrectly. Open world doesn't necessarily mean sandbox. In a true "sandbox," the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.
Generally open world games still enforce some restrictions in the game environment, either due to absolute technical limitations or in-game limitations (such as locked areas) imposed by a game's linearity.
Just thought I would put this here as people keep stuffing up what a sandbox is. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6777
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 11:09:00 -
[371] - Quote
A player built outpost is a "sandbox" feature. (It would be more so if it were destructible) MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1547
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 11:22:00 -
[372] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:A player built outpost is a "sandbox" feature. (It would be more so if it were destructible) The above was not in reference to one of your statements.
But one about the fact that any form of incentive to go somewhere other than Hi-sec is not a sandbox feature.
Murk Paradox wrote: Why? If it's a sandbox and you're given choices, then why should you be incentivized to leave? If anyone/thing wants you away and gone, why have that there in the first place? There's already rules about terrorizing newbie pilots, but nothing saying it's wrong to do incursions/lvl 4 missions, manufacture or have trade hubs in highsec.
So now you are indeed taking the sandbox element out of the picture thinking that high/low/null is a set value of "level" of gameplay.
Guess what, it isn't.
Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
455
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 11:32:00 -
[373] - Quote
POS's should definitely have refining skills at 100%, current 75% is simply another reason why people don't risk living in null/lo. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6779
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 12:38:00 -
[374] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Malcanis wrote:A player built outpost is a "sandbox" feature. (It would be more so if it were destructible) The above was not in reference to one of your statements.
Yeah I know I was just making an observation.
Frying Doom wrote: But one about the fact that any form of incentive to go somewhere other than Hi-sec is not a sandbox feature.
Removing huge disincentives to do so might be though
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6167
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 12:43:00 -
[375] - Quote
I do love how hisec players cite the "sandbox" as a compelling reason why hisec should have the ridiculously high rewards and convenience it offers, while demanding that other aspects of the "sandbox" be curtailed if not removed (i.e. suicide ganking, canflipping, etc.) ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6779
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 12:54:00 -
[376] - Quote
Andski wrote:I do love how hisec players cite the "sandbox" as a compelling reason why hisec should have the ridiculously high rewards and convenience it offers, while demanding that other aspects of the "sandbox" be curtailed if not removed (i.e. suicide ganking, canflipping, etc.)
Sandbox, n: "Whatever I say it is" MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
70
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 13:08:00 -
[377] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Malcanis wrote:A player built outpost is a "sandbox" feature. (It would be more so if it were destructible) The above was not in reference to one of your statements. Yeah I know I was just making an observation. Frying Doom wrote: But one about the fact that any form of incentive to go somewhere other than Hi-sec is not a sandbox feature.
Removing huge disincentives to do so might be though
"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."
The point I've been trying to make, with the sadist/masochist remarks, is that there just aren't enough masochists around to make things entertaining enough for the sadists. Its an ecological problem.
People playing this game, who aren't masochists, don't want to see hours of game effort destroyed in what they perceive (rightly or wrongly) as unfair, unbalanced and unprovoked pvp. They just don't see the cost/benefit calculation being in low/nullsecs favor. They'll see the ease with which they can lose ingame toys (what some call 'space ships') being much MUCH greater than the ease of acquiring or replacing those losses. They put in X hours playing the game to get some toys, then see the toys destroyed by other players in the blink of an eye and think "hey now I have to play this game for another X hours so that what? They can get blowed up again? And those X hours weren't even fun? And getting my toys blowed up wasn't fun either? Pfft no I'm outta here."
So they stay away from low/nullsec because they aren't masochists and don't feel that they are playing this game in order to provide entertainment for 'tear seekers'.
Putting more vinegar into hisec won't help. They'll just leave the game and go somewhere else. It'd make it less fun for the non-masochists. If you bring the same level of risk to them in hisec the equation just goes against gameplay entirely.
Putting more honey into low/null WILL help (or possibly making the existing honey more accessible to the players who aren't totally entrenched in those areas).
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6167
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 13:11:00 -
[378] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."
The point I've been trying to make, with the sadist/masochist remarks, is that there just aren't enough masochists around to make things entertaining enough for the sadists. Its an ecological problem.
People playing this game, who aren't masochists, don't want to see hours of game effort destroyed in what they perceive (rightly or wrongly) as unfair, unbalanced and unprovoked pvp. They just don't see the cost/benefit calculation being in low/nullsecs favor. They'll see the ease with which they can lose ingame toys (what some call 'space ships') being much MUCH greater than the ease of acquiring or replacing those losses. They put in X hours playing the game to get some toys, then see the toys destroyed by other players in the blink of an eye and think "hey now I have to play this game for another X hours so that what? They can get blowed up again? And those X hours weren't even fun? And getting my toys blowed up wasn't fun either? Pfft no I'm outta here."
So they stay away from low/nullsec because they aren't masochists and don't feel that they are playing this game in order to provide entertainment for 'tear seekers'.
Putting more vinegar into hisec won't help. They'll just leave the game and go somewhere else. It'd make it less fun for the non-masochists. If you bring the same level of risk to them in hisec the equation just goes against gameplay entirely.
Putting more honey into low/null WILL help (or possibly making the existing honey more accessible to the players who aren't totally entrenched in those areas).
"EVE Online, the cold, harsh universe where Everybody Wins!" ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~ |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
70
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 13:13:00 -
[379] - Quote
Andski wrote: "EVE Online, the cold, harsh universe where Everybody Wins!"
Thing is there just arent enough people of appropriate personality types to make it work.
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6167
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 13:17:00 -
[380] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Andski wrote: "EVE Online, the cold, harsh universe where Everybody Wins!"
Thing is there just arent enough people of appropriate personality types to make it work.
No, this just isn't an "everybody wins" game. The problem is that there is just too much "honey" in highsec in comparison to lowsec and nullsec, not that there is not enough "honey" in the latter. Lowsec has what are supposed to be the best missions and the most rewarding incursions, yet nobody runs them there because hisec simply offers nearly the same rewards with far, far more convenience. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~ |
|
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
70
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 13:19:00 -
[381] - Quote
Andski wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Andski wrote: "EVE Online, the cold, harsh universe where Everybody Wins!"
Thing is there just arent enough people of appropriate personality types to make it work. No, this just isn't an "everybody wins" game. The problem is that there is just too much "honey" in highsec in comparison to lowsec and nullsec, not that there is not enough "honey" in the latter. Lowsec has what are supposed to be the best missions and the most rewarding incursions, yet nobody runs them there because hisec simply offers nearly the same rewards with far, far more convenience.
Profit/loss calculation. Include fun in the equation.
Lowsec/null doesnt have enough appeal to enough players. Its not that high is too good.
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6167
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 13:43:00 -
[382] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Profit/loss calculation. Include fun in the equation.
Lowsec/null doesnt have enough appeal to enough players. Its not that high is too good.
You can insist all you want that the problem isn't with hisec. It is. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~ |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
70
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 13:44:00 -
[383] - Quote
Andski wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Profit/loss calculation. Include fun in the equation.
Lowsec/null doesnt have enough appeal to enough players. Its not that high is too good.
You can insist all you want that the problem isn't with hisec. It is.
The problem, for you, is that you don't have enough targets. Wonder why ppl aren't queuing up to be your target?
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6167
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 13:49:00 -
[384] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:The problem, for you, is that you don't have enough targets. Wonder why ppl aren't queuing up to be your target?
Any targets that were once there have been relocated to hisec for running incursions, running missions, mining ice with only 2 seconds of interaction needed every 20 minutes or otherwise taking advantage of CCP's welfare programs for hisec. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~ |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1547
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 13:53:00 -
[385] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Andski wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Profit/loss calculation. Include fun in the equation.
Lowsec/null doesnt have enough appeal to enough players. Its not that high is too good.
You can insist all you want that the problem isn't with hisec. It is. The problem, for you, is that you don't have enough targets. Wonder why ppl aren't queuing up to be your target? Probably the same reason I went into a Wormhole but still have hi-sec alts.
Risk vs reward. The reward is not enough for the risk in Null and even Wormholes that are fun if you like to kill red Xs but it gets kind of boring if you like to mine, and then you look at the fact that at a POS you have a max 75% refine so you end up just saying why bother and what should be your main focus in the game (as was my intent) is actually the minority entertainment as I go to Hi-sec to mine for isk. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
70
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 13:54:00 -
[386] - Quote
Andski wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:The problem, for you, is that you don't have enough targets. Wonder why ppl aren't queuing up to be your target?
Any targets that were once there have been relocated to hisec for running incursions, running missions, mining ice with only 2 seconds of interaction needed every 20 minutes or otherwise taking advantage of CCP's welfare programs for hisec.
Because no matter how boring it may be its more fun than being your toy
|
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
906
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 13:54:00 -
[387] - Quote
Andski wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:The problem, for you, is that you don't have enough targets. Wonder why ppl aren't queuing up to be your target?
Any targets that were once there have been relocated to hisec for running incursions, running missions, mining ice with only 2 seconds of interaction needed every 20 minutes or otherwise taking advantage of CCP's welfare programs for hisec.
Drones need to be put back into the welfare system.
Perhaps President Obama can help. This is not a signature. |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
38
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 14:14:00 -
[388] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Andski wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Profit/loss calculation. Include fun in the equation.
Lowsec/null doesnt have enough appeal to enough players. Its not that high is too good.
You can insist all you want that the problem isn't with hisec. It is. The problem, for you, is that you don't have enough targets. Wonder why ppl aren't queuing up to be your target?
This is the whole problem.
"We don't have enough to shoot at, hence we must force players out of hisec, cause its too easy to stay there"
Hello? This is a GAME, right, so people will in fact see how a particular part of a game works, and for example decide "I just want to spend my free off work relaxing time in the market or making items" or "I just want to sub for 6 months and work up to a few Incursions".
So you want more PvP'ers but there dosn't seem to be enough of them? And you're blaming a game mechanic?
The game mechanic is what divides players into categories. If you have an mmo game that's has a 10K player base with a 50/50 pve/pvp population, and remove pve completely , do people seriously think the pve players will just go "oh well, now I have no choice but to pvp" and suddenly have 10K pvp players or do you think you'll just now have maybe 6000 pvp players and empty cities?
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6167
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 14:41:00 -
[389] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:This is the whole problem.
"We don't have enough to shoot at, hence we must force players out of hisec, cause its too easy to stay there"
Hello? This is a GAME, right, so people will in fact see how a particular part of a game works, and for example decide "I just want to spend my free off work relaxing time in the market or making items" or "I just want to sub for 6 months and work up to a few Incursions".
So you want more PvP'ers but there dosn't seem to be enough of them? And you're blaming a game mechanic?
The game mechanic is what divides players into categories. If you have an mmo game that's has a 10K player base with a 50/50 pve/pvp population, and remove pve completely , do people seriously think the pve players will just go "oh well, now I have no choice but to pvp" and suddenly have 10K pvp players or do you think you'll just now have maybe 6000 pvp players and empty cities?
This isn't about forcing players out of hisec because short of CCP moving their characters and assets to nullsec entirely, that isn't happening. It's about balancing hisec to stop it from being the absolute best game in town. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~ |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
38
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 15:02:00 -
[390] - Quote
Andski wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:This is the whole problem.
"We don't have enough to shoot at, hence we must force players out of hisec, cause its too easy to stay there"
Hello? This is a GAME, right, so people will in fact see how a particular part of a game works, and for example decide "I just want to spend my free off work relaxing time in the market or making items" or "I just want to sub for 6 months and work up to a few Incursions".
So you want more PvP'ers but there dosn't seem to be enough of them? And you're blaming a game mechanic?
The game mechanic is what divides players into categories. If you have an mmo game that's has a 10K player base with a 50/50 pve/pvp population, and remove pve completely , do people seriously think the pve players will just go "oh well, now I have no choice but to pvp" and suddenly have 10K pvp players or do you think you'll just now have maybe 6000 pvp players and empty cities?
This isn't about forcing players out of hisec because short of CCP moving their characters and assets to nullsec entirely, that isn't happening. It's about balancing hisec to stop it from being the absolute best game in town.
What? Balance what? This is not a game where you have one base and I have a base and you say that your base is smaller and has less windows from where to shoot from. Everyone has access to the same base and can come and go as they please, and when shooting happens, we all do it somewhere else anyway like lowsec, and if you can't enter that hisec base because of your security status then you already know how that happened.
|
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6780
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 15:08:00 -
[391] - Quote
Andski wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Profit/loss calculation. Include fun in the equation.
Lowsec/null doesnt have enough appeal to enough players. Its not that high is too good.
You can insist all you want that the problem isn't with hisec. It is.
Well, strictly speaking, he can't pretend that hi-sec isn't part of the problem. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6780
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 15:09:00 -
[392] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Andski wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:This is the whole problem.
"We don't have enough to shoot at, hence we must force players out of hisec, cause its too easy to stay there"
Hello? This is a GAME, right, so people will in fact see how a particular part of a game works, and for example decide "I just want to spend my free off work relaxing time in the market or making items" or "I just want to sub for 6 months and work up to a few Incursions".
So you want more PvP'ers but there dosn't seem to be enough of them? And you're blaming a game mechanic?
The game mechanic is what divides players into categories. If you have an mmo game that's has a 10K player base with a 50/50 pve/pvp population, and remove pve completely , do people seriously think the pve players will just go "oh well, now I have no choice but to pvp" and suddenly have 10K pvp players or do you think you'll just now have maybe 6000 pvp players and empty cities?
This isn't about forcing players out of hisec because short of CCP moving their characters and assets to nullsec entirely, that isn't happening. It's about balancing hisec to stop it from being the absolute best game in town. What? Balance what? This is not a game where you have one base and I have a base and you say that your base is smaller and has less windows from where to shoot from. Everyone has access to the same base and can come and go as they please, and when shooting happens, we all do it somewhere else anyway like lowsec, and if you can't enter that hisec base because of your security status then you already know how that happened.
Ah, the old "$_SHIP isn't overpowered because anyone can fly it" argument that has been roundly mocked and solidly destroyed over and over and over but apparently this is your first time and I hope it was special for you too?
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6167
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 15:14:00 -
[393] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:What? Balance what? This is not a game where you have one base and I have a base and you say that your base is smaller and has less windows from where to shoot from. Everyone has access to the same base and can come and go as they please, and when shooting happens, we all do it somewhere else anyway like lowsec, and if you can't enter that hisec base because of your security status then you already know how that happened.
"hisec, the newbie area, should be just as lucrative for veterans to live in as nullsec, but infinitely more convenient and accessible" ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6780
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 15:15:00 -
[394] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote: What? Balance what? This is not a game where you have one base and I have a base and you say that your base is smaller and has less windows from where to shoot from. Everyone has access to the same base and can come and go as they please, and when shooting happens, we all do it somewhere else anyway like lowsec, and if you can't enter that hisec base because of your security status then you already know how that happened.
Picture this scenario:
You're a happy mission runner, happily running missions for the Minmatar Republic like a good freedom fighter should. It's your thing and you like it and you're happy. Your standing with Amarr is in the tank, of course, but hey, screw those slavers!
Then one day Greyscale posts a blog, and says that Amarr missions are going to be changed. First, they're going to get 75% more LP than everyone else's, second, the deadspaces are going to be locked so that no one else can enter them, and then lastly, 90% of the Minmatar LP store tiems (including almost all the good ones)
The Amarr missioners defend the change on the grounds that, hey, anyone can grind up Amarr standings and get the benefit of this change, and also it makes lore sense for Amarr missions to pay the most and have the best tech, and anyway, EVE isn't fair so ~deal with it~.
Your immediate response to that defence is exactly what we think of your post.
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
491
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 15:23:00 -
[395] - Quote
Andski wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:The problem, for you, is that you don't have enough targets. Wonder why ppl aren't queuing up to be your target?
Any targets that were once there have been relocated to hisec for running incursions, running missions, mining ice with only 2 seconds of interaction needed every 20 minutes or otherwise taking advantage of CCP's welfare programs for hisec.
It's funny how you manage to accuse and point the finger everywhere but yourself in this post. You don't think that people have relocated to hi sec because they're just not welcome into your space? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6780
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 15:24:00 -
[396] - Quote
Andski wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:What? Balance what? This is not a game where you have one base and I have a base and you say that your base is smaller and has less windows from where to shoot from. Everyone has access to the same base and can come and go as they please, and when shooting happens, we all do it somewhere else anyway like lowsec, and if you can't enter that hisec base because of your security status then you already know how that happened. "hisec, the newbie area..."
Really, is it not about time CCP started admitting to themselves that hi-sec isn't just a starter area, hasn't just been a starter area for at least 6 years, and will never be predominantly a starting area ever again, and got working on a new conception of what hi-sec should be?
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6780
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 15:25:00 -
[397] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Andski wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:The problem, for you, is that you don't have enough targets. Wonder why ppl aren't queuing up to be your target?
Any targets that were once there have been relocated to hisec for running incursions, running missions, mining ice with only 2 seconds of interaction needed every 20 minutes or otherwise taking advantage of CCP's welfare programs for hisec. It's funny how you manage to accuse and point the finger everywhere but yourself in this post. You don't think that people have relocated to hi sec because they're just not welcome into your space?
No I'm pretty sure he doesn't, because he's talking about his own alts. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
491
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 15:29:00 -
[398] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: No I'm pretty sure he doesn't, because he's talking about his own alts.
Maybe. But it doesn't make much sense he refers to his alts as "targets". |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6780
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 15:40:00 -
[399] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Malcanis wrote: No I'm pretty sure he doesn't, because he's talking about his own alts.
Maybe. But it doesn't make much sense he refers to his alts as "targets".
No, I'm pretty sure that he's aware that when he has his mining guy or his hauling guy out doing their thing, that they're potential targets. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
416
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 15:50:00 -
[400] - Quote
I still say that the nullsec players will never be happy with highsec rewards, because it has the highest population.
Having 100 other people with you in a busy missioning system cuts down the odds that you will be the person scanned down considerably, and would even work in lowsec if that many people could be dragged out there.
It's even better protection than CONCORD in some places. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6780
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 16:00:00 -
[401] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:I still say that the nullsec players will never be happy with highsec rewards, because it has the highest population.
Having 100 other people with you in a busy missioning system cuts down the odds that you will be the person scanned down considerably, and would even work in lowsec if that many people could be dragged out there.
It's even better protection than CONCORD in some places.
You should have seen G-0Q when INIT. lived there. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6168
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 16:18:00 -
[402] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Really, is it not about time CCP started admitting to themselves that hi-sec isn't just a starter area, hasn't just been a starter area for at least 6 years, and will never be predominantly a starting area ever again, and got working on a new conception of what hi-sec should be?
That's the thing. It's a starting area only on paper, but there is so much content there that is far from accessible to newer players. For example, if you can't fly a T3, a T2 gunned battleship or a T2 logistics with great skills, all of which take several months of dedicated skill training to fly properly, you don't get into most incursion gangs. Yet CCP chose to implement incursions in hisec, despite having a golden opportunity to introduce group PvE content exclusive to lowsec which would have definitely been beneficial to the state of the game there. However, in what seems to be a lapse of thought, they somehow believed that the very, very slim chance of a BPC for a crappy supercarrier being dropped by the final encounter would be the carrot that would draw players to run them in lowsec, which never quite worked out. The fact that they also put them in hisec, while also making them far easier to run there (no ridiculous NPC gate camps, no scramming rats, CONCORD and faction navies work perfectly, etc.) just made hisec the best place to run them considering that one could safely use high-meta modules and T3/faction ships to make up for the payout difference with increased efficiency.
There's also missions. Hundreds of players can simultaneously run missions from the same agent without a single drawback. In comparison, a fully upgraded Strat 5 system in nullsec will have maybe 6 anomalies in existence that are worth running, so it can support 6 players plus a few to run belts.
And then there's PI. Extraction is, of course, superior in wormholes and nullsec, but there is zero difference between a 0.0/WH factory planet and one next door to Jita. There is also no difference between a planet with 5 players running factories and another with 1000. Tyrannis was the ultimate carebear expansion, almost the definition of welfare in MMOs.
What I'm saying is that CCP's current vision of hisec seems to be "EVE at Very Easy difficulty." ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~ |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
38
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 16:57:00 -
[403] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:Andski wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:This is the whole problem.
"We don't have enough to shoot at, hence we must force players out of hisec, cause its too easy to stay there"
Hello? This is a GAME, right, so people will in fact see how a particular part of a game works, and for example decide "I just want to spend my free off work relaxing time in the market or making items" or "I just want to sub for 6 months and work up to a few Incursions".
So you want more PvP'ers but there dosn't seem to be enough of them? And you're blaming a game mechanic?
The game mechanic is what divides players into categories. If you have an mmo game that's has a 10K player base with a 50/50 pve/pvp population, and remove pve completely , do people seriously think the pve players will just go "oh well, now I have no choice but to pvp" and suddenly have 10K pvp players or do you think you'll just now have maybe 6000 pvp players and empty cities?
This isn't about forcing players out of hisec because short of CCP moving their characters and assets to nullsec entirely, that isn't happening. It's about balancing hisec to stop it from being the absolute best game in town. What? Balance what? This is not a game where you have one base and I have a base and you say that your base is smaller and has less windows from where to shoot from. Everyone has access to the same base and can come and go as they please, and when shooting happens, we all do it somewhere else anyway like lowsec, and if you can't enter that hisec base because of your security status then you already know how that happened. Ah, the old "$_SHIP isn't overpowered because anyone can fly it" argument that has been roundly mocked and solidly destroyed over and over and over but apparently this is your first time and I hope it was special for you too?
That was NOT the arguments. Ships aren't "places", you cant just fly any ship you like, it can take months to train a hull. Learn to read. How the hell can you compare space for objects? There's never a section of space that's not an an exact copy of somewhere else in space under a different faction, everyone has access to the same resources. If suddenly everyone wanted Amarr space because they made a mistake and put all the good missions there, it would be imbalanced. |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
38
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 17:12:00 -
[404] - Quote
I'm not defending Hisec saying "oh gees don't nerf it" I really don't give a crap about what they do to it. I'll adapt, so will everyone else.
None of you have yet produced a logical argument as to why it needs changing, and what you seem to think it will cause when it happens. Even if, prices will change, markets will adjust, biz as normal. Less people will stick their heads in low/null because it takes longer to get the isk for ships. Congrats, even less targets. |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
38
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 17:20:00 -
[405] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote: What? Balance what? This is not a game where you have one base and I have a base and you say that your base is smaller and has less windows from where to shoot from. Everyone has access to the same base and can come and go as they please, and when shooting happens, we all do it somewhere else anyway like lowsec, and if you can't enter that hisec base because of your security status then you already know how that happened.
Picture this scenario: You're a happy mission runner, happily running missions for the Minmatar Republic like a good freedom fighter should. It's your thing and you like it and you're happy. Your standing with Amarr is in the tank, of course, but hey, screw those slavers! Then one day Greyscale posts a blog, and says that Amarr missions are going to be changed. First, they're going to get 75% more LP than everyone else's, second, the deadspaces are going to be locked so that no one else can enter them, and then lastly, 90% of the Minmatar LP store tiems (including almost all the good ones) will be in the Amarr LP store. The Amarr missioners defend the change on the grounds that, hey, anyone can grind up Amarr standings and get the benefit of this change, and also it makes lore sense for Amarr missions to pay the most and have the best tech, and anyway, EVE isn't fair so ~deal with it~. Your immediate response to that defence is exactly what we think of your post.
Don't put words in my mouth, you have no idea how I think, Even assuming I could never grind standing for Amarr with any toon I own. why the hell would I actually care. I don't complain now that mission runners with 150 million SP's can have all 4 Marouders and run any L4's in 10 minutes, or complain to CCP that my Stations never have research or invention slots "why or why didnt you add moar CCP ???"
I am dealing with it, how about you start dealing with the way hisec/lowsec/null are, it;s your damn argument.
CCP can nerf all they like. If this game stayed the same all the time, I'd go back to another game. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6168
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 17:23:00 -
[406] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Less people will stick their heads in low/null because it takes longer to get the isk for ships. Congrats, even less targets.
You know, people who feel that they need to stick their heads out into low/null in ships that are an unreasonable burden to replace are already going about it wrong, no matter how much ISK they can make in hisec. So while we might see less late-generation players cluelessly roaming solo in T3s whose fits they found on Battleclinic, we'd have more nullsec players actually making their ISK in 0.0 rather than funding their PvP with hisec incursions and missions, which means more targets. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~ |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
38
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 17:49:00 -
[407] - Quote
Andski wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:Less people will stick their heads in low/null because it takes longer to get the isk for ships. Congrats, even less targets. You know, people who feel that they need to stick their heads out into low/null in ships that are an unreasonable burden to replace are already going about it wrong, no matter how much ISK they can make in hisec. So while we might see less late-generation players cluelessly roaming solo in T3s whose fits they found on Battleclinic, we'd have more nullsec players actually making their ISK in 0.0 rather than funding their PvP with hisec incursions and missions, which means more targets.
I'm all for more low/null fight, I fail to see why you think that everyone that joins up wants that. If they did, guess what, they'd get out to a corp in low/null from the start and still mission for isk in relative safety in a controlled system, with better mission payouts, and if needed, still have a fast alt for market games in a month or so in high sec.
If you just want new targets because you're bored shooting the same people, well then, this is what happens when all the people around that want to play EVE are already playing eve, and for the record, I'd just join RvB to not put up with alliances tantrums that seem to happen on a weekly basis.
|
Mister Tuggles
Faceless Men
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 18:25:00 -
[408] - Quote
High sec doesn't need nerfed anymore than it has been already. It is the most dangerous place in Eve to live/play.
I firmly believe that Null should be nerfed, and have a lot of its wealth moved into low sec. You know, low sec, that place where every corp in the 50 surrounding systems aren't blue to your alliance, and you actually get attacked by other players... |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
343
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 18:43:00 -
[409] - Quote
Title is accurate. Scan down a Grav in High Sec and 5 other people want it.
Null lacks competition. R.I.P. Vile Rat |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
71
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 23:38:00 -
[410] - Quote
Andski wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:Less people will stick their heads in low/null because it takes longer to get the isk for ships. Congrats, even less targets. You know, people who feel that they need to stick their heads out into low/null in ships that are an unreasonable burden to replace are already going about it wrong, no matter how much ISK they can make in hisec. So while we might see less late-generation players cluelessly roaming solo in T3s whose fits they found on Battleclinic, we'd have more nullsec players actually making their ISK in 0.0 rather than funding their PvP with hisec incursions and missions, which means more targets.
But thats the WHOLE POINT!
They don't want to be TARGETS!
You are objectifying other human beings and seeing them as some kind of amazing toy doll that cries when you hurt them.
Heres news for you; other people don't play this game for the purposes of YOUR entertainment.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6781
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 23:43:00 -
[411] - Quote
Mister Tuggles wrote:High sec doesn't need nerfed anymore than it has been already. It is the most dangerous place in Eve to live/play.
Fact: 0.0 is over 4 times more dangerous than hi-sec
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
71
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 23:50:00 -
[412] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Mister Tuggles wrote:High sec doesn't need nerfed anymore than it has been already. It is the most dangerous place in Eve to live/play.
Fact: 0.0 is over 4 times more dangerous than hi-sec
Only if you want it to be...
By 'dangerous' you probably mean 'risk of getting your ship blown up'. You might want to take 'on purpose' (ie by consensual pvp) or 'by accident' (ie nonconsensual pvp) into that. I think more ship losses in low/null happen when people engage in fights willingly than in high but a LOT more happen in high when people are ganked.
So yes 0.0 is more dangerous when you want danger; but if you want to hole up in your safe system with only blues around and when someone non blue shows up you gtfo then 0.0 is way safer than high.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1079
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 23:54:00 -
[413] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Malcanis wrote:Mister Tuggles wrote:High sec doesn't need nerfed anymore than it has been already. It is the most dangerous place in Eve to live/play.
Fact: 0.0 is over 4 times more dangerous than hi-sec Only if you want it to be... By 'dangerous' you probably mean 'risk of getting your ship blown up'. You might want to take 'on purpose' (ie by consensual pvp) or 'by accident' (ie nonconsensual pvp) into that. I think more ship losses in low/null happen when people engage in fights willingly than in high but a LOT more happen in high when people are ganked. So yes 0.0 is more dangerous when you want danger; but if you want to hole up in your safe system with only blues around and when someone non blue shows up you gtfo then 0.0 is way safer than high.
It sure is, and I clung to that incorrect belief last week while being awoxed by a light blue guy in a system full of blues....
The only people who think null sec is safer than null are people hiding under the protection of CONCORD...in high sec. No magical npc spaceships spawned to punish my null sec awoxxer. |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
400
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 23:55:00 -
[414] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:So yes 0.0 is more dangerous when you want danger; but if you want to hole up in your safe system with only blues around and when someone non blue shows up you gtfo then 0.0 is way safer than high.
Since more people get ganked in highsec, it is more dangerous?
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Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
71
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 00:03:00 -
[415] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:purestrain highsec pubbie trash Since more people get ganked in highsec, it is more dangerous?
As I was saying it all depends how you define danger. Those poor hisec pubbies (gods do you use that expression on reddit now as well as sa?) have a different definition to you. So what? Does everyone have to see this game the same way you do?
That is the whole problem on this thread; people who think that other people playing with space toys should play with those toys in the way THEY think they should.
Thats your whole nullsec/hisec argument problem right there. Once you can get over that issue you can get on with enjoying the game the way YOU want to play it.
But other people having fun and relaxing does not, should not, make you have less fun unless you are a sadist. If you are then you need to encourage masochists to play the game instead of trying to turn other players into masochists.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2361
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 00:10:00 -
[416] - Quote
encouraging game balance is a sign of sexual peversion |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
71
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 00:12:00 -
[417] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:encouraging game balance is a sign of sexual peversion
Well otherwise its gonna end up like this:
Quote: "Executing the cost-reduction plan CEO Mark Pincus announced in November, Zynga has shut down, pulled from the app stores, or stopped accepting new players to more than 10 games such as PetVille, Mafia Wars 2, FishVille, Vampire Wars, Treasure Isle, Indiana Jones Adventure World, Mafia Wars Shakedown, Forestville, Montopia, Mojitomo, and Word Scramble Challenge. Comments from gamers on the shutdown notices included things like 'my daughter is heartbroken' and 'Please don't remove petville. I been playing for 4 yrs. and I'M going to miss my pet Jaime.why do you want cause depression for me and others. Why do you want to kill my pet?' For players that have invested a lot of microtransactions and/or time, this comes as a heavy blow."
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EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
400
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 00:14:00 -
[418] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote: As I was saying it all depends how you define danger. Those poor hisec pubbies (gods do you use that expression on reddit now as well as sa?) have a different definition to you. So what? Does everyone have to see this game the same way you do?
No, you don't get to redefine "danger". Try again.
Zaraz Zaraz wrote: But other people having fun and relaxing does not, should not, make you have less fun unless you are a sadist. If you are then you need to encourage masochists to play the game instead of trying to turn other players into masochists.
No, but when others "fun" is exploiting bad game mechanics ruining other parts of the game it needs to be addressed. People who want changes are not asking highsec to be eliminated, which you and others are implying. We are asking it to be balanced.
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Count of MonteCylon
MonteCylon Money Acquisition and Demolition Ltd.
37
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 00:15:00 -
[419] - Quote
Hi-sec can't really be nerfed for the following reasons:
1. Veldspar and scordite value makes it possible for new players to get started in Eve even if playing solo. They don't have the support or the skills to survive in low-sec or null-sec.
2. Team-based PvE is a big part of any MMO so you can't get rid of incursions etc.
3. Freighter hauling is an important part of the Eve economy so you can't really get rid of that either.
You can't buff null-sec because they are making incredible amounts of ISK as it is.
All this really leaves is to buff low-sec profitability so that it matches the risk. Buff Low-Sec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2400257#post2400257 |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
71
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 00:23:00 -
[420] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote: As I was saying it all depends how you define danger. Those poor hisec pubbies (gods do you use that expression on reddit now as well as sa?) have a different definition to you. So what? Does everyone have to see this game the same way you do?
No, you don't get to redefine "danger". Try again.
There are many different kinds of danger. Theres the danger that in fooling around with a girl I'll get her pregnant, theres the danger that some chavs at the bus stop will stab me. Theres the danger that I'll lose my ship in a gf, theres the danger that my hauler will get ganked undocking from Jita44.
These are different kinds of danger and different people see them differently.
I don't need to redefine danger, its diverse enough as it is.
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James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
3033
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 00:34:00 -
[421] - Quote
Mister Tuggles wrote:High sec doesn't need nerfed anymore than it has been already. It is the most dangerous place in Eve to live/play.
I firmly believe that Null should be nerfed, and have a lot of its wealth moved into low sec. You know, low sec, that place where every corp in the 50 surrounding systems aren't blue to your alliance, and you actually get attacked by other players... Wow, you actually believe everything you said. That's pretty scary. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
3033
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 00:36:00 -
[422] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:That is the whole problem on this thread; people who think that other people playing with space toys should play with those toys in the way THEY think they should. Don't you dare presume to tell me what I think. I don't give a damn what you do in this game, I do however care about the mechanics you're exploiting and how they affect me.
Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6178
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 01:12:00 -
[423] - Quote
Mister Tuggles wrote:High sec doesn't need nerfed anymore than it has been already. It is the most dangerous place in Eve to live/play.
I firmly believe that Null should be nerfed, and have a lot of its wealth moved into low sec. You know, low sec, that place where every corp in the 50 surrounding systems aren't blue to your alliance, and you actually get attacked by other players... High sec is perfectly safe right now. Stop posting nonsense. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~ |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3112
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 02:32:00 -
[424] - Quote
Andski wrote:Mister Tuggles wrote:High sec doesn't need nerfed anymore than it has been already. It is the most dangerous place in Eve to live/play.
I firmly believe that Null should be nerfed, and have a lot of its wealth moved into low sec. You know, low sec, that place where every corp in the 50 surrounding systems aren't blue to your alliance, and you actually get attacked by other players... High sec is perfectly safe right now. Stop posting nonsense. Haha, look at him, saying highsec is the most dangerous. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1572
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 09:45:00 -
[425] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Andski wrote:Mister Tuggles wrote:High sec doesn't need nerfed anymore than it has been already. It is the most dangerous place in Eve to live/play.
I firmly believe that Null should be nerfed, and have a lot of its wealth moved into low sec. You know, low sec, that place where every corp in the 50 surrounding systems aren't blue to your alliance, and you actually get attacked by other players... High sec is perfectly safe right now. Stop posting nonsense. Haha, look at him, saying highsec is the most dangerous. Yes Blue space is a problem but honestly what is there to fight for.
Top down income needs to go, while I think just having a workable industry will drive a lot of conflicts as there will be miners to gank, in large numbers.
Hi-sec can be dangerous yes but it is more dangerous to lose concentration in a WH or lo-sec. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
71
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 10:46:00 -
[426] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:That is the whole problem on this thread; people who think that other people playing with space toys should play with those toys in the way THEY think they should. Don't you dare presume to tell me what I think. I don't give a damn what you do in this game, I do however care about the mechanics you're exploiting and how they affect me.
I'm not exploiting any mechanics. I only sub for the forums. There are much better games to play.
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Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
199
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 16:56:00 -
[427] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Malcanis wrote:A player built outpost is a "sandbox" feature. (It would be more so if it were destructible) The above was not in reference to one of your statements. But one about the fact that any form of incentive to go somewhere other than Hi-sec is not a sandbox feature. Murk Paradox wrote: Why? If it's a sandbox and you're given choices, then why should you be incentivized to leave? If anyone/thing wants you away and gone, why have that there in the first place? There's already rules about terrorizing newbie pilots, but nothing saying it's wrong to do incursions/lvl 4 missions, manufacture or have trade hubs in highsec.
So now you are indeed taking the sandbox element out of the picture thinking that high/low/null is a set value of "level" of gameplay.
Guess what, it isn't.
I'm not seeing where what I said is wrong. Are you refereing my use of "sandbox element"? Because it is correct, reinforced by your own definition quoted by wikipedia. Maybe I need to spell out the underlined sentence, since you clearly glossed over a few words =P. THINKING that high/low/null has a set value of gameplay to think one advances to the next such as in stages, removes the sandbox element of what eve is. All sectors of space are equal in regards to who can go where. If it makes it easier for you, replace with open world element.
But please, if you wish to pick apart a statement, use all the words =) "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2379
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 17:03:00 -
[428] - Quote
lol this guy is stupid |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
199
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 17:12:00 -
[429] - Quote
Andski wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:This is the whole problem.
"We don't have enough to shoot at, hence we must force players out of hisec, cause its too easy to stay there"
Hello? This is a GAME, right, so people will in fact see how a particular part of a game works, and for example decide "I just want to spend my free off work relaxing time in the market or making items" or "I just want to sub for 6 months and work up to a few Incursions".
So you want more PvP'ers but there dosn't seem to be enough of them? And you're blaming a game mechanic?
The game mechanic is what divides players into categories. If you have an mmo game that's has a 10K player base with a 50/50 pve/pvp population, and remove pve completely , do people seriously think the pve players will just go "oh well, now I have no choice but to pvp" and suddenly have 10K pvp players or do you think you'll just now have maybe 6000 pvp players and empty cities?
This isn't about forcing players out of hisec because short of CCP moving their characters and assets to nullsec entirely, that isn't happening. It's about balancing hisec to stop it from being the absolute best game in town.
Why? You've been saying the problem is with highsec. Now you're saying it isn't?
I'm not going to play the goon card or anything, but it will be hard to ignore the fact that goons are the largest entity of people in eve, and almost ANY null/highsec conversation includes a Goon speaking ill of one in favor of another in some sort of good vs evil battle.
Highsec is npc generated much akin to a major city. Major trade hubs, infrastructure, reasearch, the ability to do just about anything in game can be done in highsec. We all know it, and have known it.
Then you have a group of people who want to create their own space. They want their own diplomats and choose to shoot whoever they want. Their rules. Screw everyone else. Fine. You got it.
Now the "people" (ccp, empire et al) who are behind the scenes of highsec are supposed to help you make it your version of them, all the way citing it isn't "fair"? Of course it's not. It's not fair. Eve is a cold and harsh, blah blah blah.
But you didn't want highsec, you forsook it and walked away. You wanted to make your own empire, and have done so. It's not anyone else's fault in highsec nor is it a problem of highsec, that people don't want to go to null.
In short, you did a shittier job of it than empire did creating their high security space.
When people want pure lawless space, they go see null.
No incentives are needed, because it's player generated. You want more people in null, get more people in null. Don't rest upon the fact you want more targets when you can have them at a moment's notice. You sov types do indeed do it all the time. Even come into highsec for those targets.
All this honey and vengar crap is insane. Make your neighborhood better instead of pleading with other people to do it for you. It's your bed you made, sleep in it. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
71
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 23:51:00 -
[430] - Quote
Watching the two sides square off against each other; the ones who like to puff themselves up about how they enjoy the 'cold harsh' game and aren't afraid to get their internet space toys blown up and aren't they just awesome!!!!! vs the ones who just want to relax and play a game and have fun and its not fair that their internet space toys can get blow'd up by other players leave us alone!!!!!
Guys. Its just a game. Enjoy what you have while you have it. The mechanics get changed by CCP ALL THE TIME! It totally breaks immersion, pretty much every patch (what how did all these ships all across the galaxy get their slot layout and stats changed simultaneously??) Immersion breaking. But its CCPs game; the hammer will swing around wildly and the game will change.
Enjoy what you have. While you have it. Don't bleat and moan about other players having fun; have your own fun. Otherwise its just pathetic.
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James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
3052
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 23:55:00 -
[431] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:In short, you did a shittier job of it than empire did creating their high security space. Yeah, we sure did a ****** job not putting 8 stations in every system with 100% refining and multiple manufacturing slots. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
457
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 00:29:00 -
[432] - Quote
I think hisec is well balanced right now, its been nerfed a zillion times, yet still good enuff to make a living there and not have players unsub,
cos thats whatll happen if it keeps getting nerfed, cos few are going to go willingly into pointless Goon dominated Null sec, Very FEW.
Null Sec needs to be fixed,
Thats the whole issue here. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Lord Zim
2217
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 00:32:00 -
[433] - Quote
Mister Tuggles wrote:High sec doesn't need nerfed anymore than it has been already. It is the most dangerous place in Eve to live/play. This is absolute bullshit from start to finish.
Frying Doom wrote:Yes Blue space is a problem but honestly what is there to fight for. No, it isn't a problem, the problem lies in there not being enough people in null to actually make roaming around something to do on a regular basis in nullsec.
Murk Paradox wrote:Why? You've been saying the problem is with highsec. Now you're saying it isn't? He said hisec is "the absolute best game in town", which is a problem. Why should I bother mining in nullsec when it's readily available in hisec, with concord protection so I don't even have to spend any time protecting myself? Why should I bother manufacturing anything in nullsec when I can find a fucktonne of readily available manufacturing slots within 2 jumps of Jita?
You're not seeing this as a problem, but it is. Nullsec should be one of the places where most people should want to go to to make money, however it isn't. The only thing nullsec is used for, largely, is PVP and supercap manufacture and some reaction, anything else is comparatively speaking inconsequential and more easily/better done in hisec. And this is wrong.
Murk Paradox wrote:When people want pure lawless space, they go see null. This is at the base of your problem with seeing how null should be, null isn't supposed to be "lawless space", it's supposed to be "NPC lawless space" and "player-lawful space", i.e. it should be a place where players went to live and make their own rules.
Currently the game mechanics dictate that what they do in nullsec is 1) Make supercaps 2) Some reaction 3) PVP
Indy? Why? We've got hisec for that. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
457
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 00:39:00 -
[434] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: He said hisec is "the absolute best game in town", which is a problem. Why should I bother mining in nullsec when it's readily available in hisec, with concord protection so I don't even have to spend any time protecting myself? .
It is an absolute fallacy that if you just nerf the heck outta hisec mining, ALL the Miners will just flock to Null sec,
No they'll flock ouuta the game,
No matter How good your protection is as youre mining in Null sec, unless youre in a system surrounded by blues, theres always a Bigger Blob thatll kill everything you got and make your HOURS of effort useless. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Lord Zim
2217
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 00:46:00 -
[435] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:It is an absolute fallacy that if you just nerf the heck outta hisec mining, ALL the Miners will just flock to Null sec, I did not say "nerf hisec mining", I said "mining is better in hisec". It's less effort, it's just as profitable (in fact, it's more profitable for vastly less effort) than nullsec, and literally every part of being an industrialist is better in hisec than it is in nullsec. This must change.
Peter Raptor wrote:No they'll flock ouuta the game, Stop being a drama queen, it does you no good.
Peter Raptor wrote:No matter How good your protection is as youre mining in Null sec, unless youre in a system surrounded by blues, theres always a Bigger Blob thatll kill everything you got and make your HOURS of effort useless. There's no reason to do anything industry-related in nullsec, because hisec can outperform it at literally every level, for vastly less effort and risk. Bitching about "a bigger blob" is irrelevant to this topic. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
457
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 01:28:00 -
[436] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:It is an absolute fallacy that if you just nerf the heck outta hisec mining, ALL the Miners will just flock to Null sec, I did not say "nerf hisec mining", I said "mining is better in hisec". It's less effort, it's just as profitable (in fact, it's more profitable for vastly less effort) than nullsec, and literally every part of being an industrialist is better in hisec than it is in nullsec. This must change. Peter Raptor wrote:No they'll flock ouuta the game, Stop being a drama queen, it does you no good. Peter Raptor wrote:No matter How good your protection is as youre mining in Null sec, unless youre in a system surrounded by blues, theres always a Bigger Blob thatll kill everything you got and make your HOURS of effort useless. There's no reason to do anything industry-related in nullsec, because hisec can outperform it at literally every level, for vastly less effort and risk. Bitching about "a bigger blob" is irrelevant to this topic.
I agree with you, fix Null sec, its Broken, Null sec has Vastly superior asteroid belts to Hisec, but whats the point of that if you get killed and lose Billions instantanously, unless youre in a Sea of Blues??
The risk factor makes Nullsec industry very lousy, especialy with 75% POS refining yield, This has to be changed to 100% and add insta-refine to POSs too. POSs are another reason no one in their right mind wants to go to do industry in Null.
If you Buff POSs and give more protection in Null to individual miners somehow ( I don't know how this could be done, perhaps Mining Barges receive Buff when they enter Null, maybe +4 Warp Core Strength), perhaps more people would RISK it.
The "Bigger Blob" remark refers to the fact that no one in their right mind is going to risk their industry equipment worth hundreds of millions with zero protection in Null sec. So unless you join Goons, no point going to Null, even if you remove every asteroid from Empire. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
ILikeMarkets
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
111
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 01:35:00 -
[437] - Quote
I would rather remain where the PvP is at, and nullsec ain't it.
I was a nullbear, once. Then I was dragged kicking and screaming out of my safe little sov space and actually forced into Low/High PvP land. I haven't looked back. The Mittani discussing, long before the alcohol, what his panel will be about. It is entitled "Goonswarm Hates You".-á Enjoy! Be sure to go re-read his "Apology" after listening to compare his claims. :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SKC00a0ovTA#t=413s |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2390
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 02:21:00 -
[438] - Quote
ILikeMarkets wrote:I would rather remain where the PvP is at, and nullsec ain't it.
I was a nullbear, once. Then I was dragged kicking and screaming out of my safe little sov space and actually forced into Low/High PvP land. I haven't looked back. Royal Amarr Institute [RIN] from 2010.08.11 00:35 to this day |
ILikeMarkets
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
111
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 02:33:00 -
[439] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:ILikeMarkets wrote:I would rather remain where the PvP is at, and nullsec ain't it.
I was a nullbear, once. Then I was dragged kicking and screaming out of my safe little sov space and actually forced into Low/High PvP land. I haven't looked back. Royal Amarr Institute [RIN] from 2010.08.11 00:35 to this day
le gasp! Could it possibly be a... forum alt? =D
Naw, no way. No one does that. The Mittani discussing, long before the alcohol, what his panel will be about. It is entitled "Goonswarm Hates You".-á Enjoy! Be sure to go re-read his "Apology" after listening to compare his claims. :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SKC00a0ovTA#t=413s |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
3057
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 02:36:00 -
[440] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:I agree with you, fix Null sec, its Broken, Null sec has Vastly superior asteroid belts to Hisec, but whats the point of that if you get killed and lose Billions instantanously, unless youre in a Sea of Blues??
The risk factor makes Nullsec industry very lousy, especialy with 75% POS refining yield, This has to be changed to 100% and add insta-refine to POSs too. POSs are another reason no one in their right mind wants to go to do industry in Null.
If you Buff POSs and give more protection in Null to individual miners somehow ( I don't know how this could be done, perhaps Mining Barges receive Buff when they enter Null, maybe +4 Warp Core Strength), perhaps more people would RISK it.
The "Bigger Blob" remark refers to the fact that no one in their right mind is going to risk their industry equipment worth hundreds of millions with zero protection in Null sec. So unless you join Goons, no point going to Null, even if you remove every asteroid from Empire. Null miners don't need more protection, they just need a reason to mine there. If industry is improved this will go a long way towards that goal. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3142
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 03:23:00 -
[441] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:I agree with you, fix Null sec, its Broken, Null sec has Vastly superior asteroid belts to Hisec, but whats the point of that if you get killed and lose Billions instantanously, unless youre in a Sea of Blues??
The risk factor makes Nullsec industry very lousy, especialy with 75% POS refining yield, This has to be changed to 100% and add insta-refine to POSs too. POSs are another reason no one in their right mind wants to go to do industry in Null.
If you Buff POSs and give more protection in Null to individual miners somehow ( I don't know how this could be done, perhaps Mining Barges receive Buff when they enter Null, maybe +4 Warp Core Strength), perhaps more people would RISK it.
The "Bigger Blob" remark refers to the fact that no one in their right mind is going to risk their industry equipment worth hundreds of millions with zero protection in Null sec. So unless you join Goons, no point going to Null, even if you remove every asteroid from Empire. Null miners don't need more protection, they just need a reason to mine there. If industry is improved this will go a long way towards that goal. I think he means that for everyone but goons i needs a buff, whereas we need a nerf for being blue. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2392
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 05:37:00 -
[442] - Quote
ILikeMarkets wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:ILikeMarkets wrote:I would rather remain where the PvP is at, and nullsec ain't it.
I was a nullbear, once. Then I was dragged kicking and screaming out of my safe little sov space and actually forced into Low/High PvP land. I haven't looked back. Royal Amarr Institute [RIN] from 2010.08.11 00:35 to this day le gasp! Could it possibly be a... forum alt? =D Naw, no way. No one does that. Noone worth listening to anyway. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6805
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 10:01:00 -
[443] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:It is an absolute fallacy that if you just nerf the heck outta hisec mining, ALL the Miners will just flock to Null sec, I did not say "nerf hisec mining", I said "mining is better in hisec". It's less effort, it's just as profitable (in fact, it's more profitable for vastly less effort) than nullsec, and literally every part of being an industrialist is better in hisec than it is in nullsec. This must change. Peter Raptor wrote:No they'll flock ouuta the game, Stop being a drama queen, it does you no good. Peter Raptor wrote:No matter How good your protection is as youre mining in Null sec, unless youre in a system surrounded by blues, theres always a Bigger Blob thatll kill everything you got and make your HOURS of effort useless. There's no reason to do anything industry-related in nullsec, because hisec can outperform it at literally every level, for vastly less effort and risk. Bitching about "a bigger blob" is irrelevant to this topic. I agree with you, fix Null sec, its Broken, Null sec has Vastly superior asteroid belts to Hisec.
Does it really?
What are the numbers, exactly? What's the sum value of ore in a 0.0 belt over a 1-week cycle compared to a belt in hi-sec?
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
psycho freak
Snuff Box
216
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 10:21:00 -
[444] - Quote
Some ppl dont want to be a part of blobitvile and theyer sub is same as yours and mine
i dont see any need to nurf hisec tbh
null sec does need a buff
better stations and better pos for those who chose to go to null and become a lemming
null needs more content added to atract players or null sec emp alts bck to null
biggest problem you have in null even if buffed is why wast your time building somthing for it then to be taken by blobitviletrain when you can do the same based out of npc null
remove the bottleneck of moon goo and make it so the avrage grunt can get they hands on some by adding some sort of content
but i think blobitvile leaders would cry if that happened
no need to nurf any area tbh just buff null to ad some null only content that the avrage grunt can do
ppl crying there nobody in null hmm well maybe you shouldnt evict every man and they dog
player controlled content working as intended my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k
nop cant find it |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
457
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 16:08:00 -
[445] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
Does it really?
What are the numbers, exactly? What's the sum value of ore in a 0.0 belt over a 1-week cycle compared to a belt in hi-sec?
Well for one, a single Veldspar roid has a lot more volume in Null sec than in Hisec, thats pretty obvious I thought, but youre not gonna mine it unless youre surrounded by blues, no little group of miners is gonna risk it out there by themselves. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Lord Zim
2222
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 16:13:00 -
[446] - Quote
And what's its respawn rate? Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6216
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 16:13:00 -
[447] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Why? You've been saying the problem is with highsec. Now you're saying it isn't?
At what point did I say that?
Murk Paradox wrote:Highsec is npc generated much akin to a major city. Major trade hubs, infrastructure, reasearch, the ability to do just about anything in game can be done in highsec. We all know it, and have known it.
Then you have a group of people who want to create their own space. They want their own diplomats and choose to shoot whoever they want. Their rules. Screw everyone else. Fine. You got it.
Now the "people" (ccp, empire et al) who are behind the scenes of highsec are supposed to help you make it your version of them, all the way citing it isn't "fair"? Of course it's not. It's not fair. Eve is a cold and harsh, blah blah blah.
You do realize that we only have the tools CCP gives us, right? They limited us to one outpost per system, despite the fact that some NPC systems have >20 stations. Player-dropped outposts are crap, and the only way to get manufacturing AND refining in the same station is to build a Minmatar outpost and upgrade it like a madman, which nets you up to 50% refines and all of 9 manufacturing slots. Oh, let's not forget that the cost of building the station and upgrading it to that point costs about as much as a titan.
When did anyone in hisec have to pay for the luxury of refining and manufacturing in the same station?
Murk Paradox wrote:But you didn't want highsec, you forsook it and walked away. You wanted to make your own empire, and have done so. It's not anyone else's fault in highsec nor is it a problem of highsec, that people don't want to go to null.
In short, you did a shittier job of it than empire did creating their high security space.
When people want pure lawless space, they go see null.
No incentives are needed, because it's player generated. You want more people in null, get more people in null. Don't rest upon the fact you want more targets when you can have them at a moment's notice. You sov types do indeed do it all the time. Even come into highsec for those targets.
All this honey and vinegar crap is insane. Make your neighborhood better instead of pleading with other people to do it for you. It's your bed you made, sleep in it.
So you actually have no knowledge about nullsec, got it. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~ |
Karrl Tian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
131
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 16:15:00 -
[448] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:encouraging game balance is a sign of sexual peversion Well otherwise its gonna end up like this: Quote: "Executing the cost-reduction plan CEO Mark Pincus announced in November, Zynga has shut down, pulled from the app stores, or stopped accepting new players to more than 10 games such as PetVille, Mafia Wars 2, FishVille, Vampire Wars, Treasure Isle, Indiana Jones Adventure World, Mafia Wars Shakedown, Forestville, Montopia, Mojitomo, and Word Scramble Challenge. Comments from gamers on the shutdown notices included things like 'my daughter is heartbroken' and 'Please don't remove petville. I been playing for 4 yrs. and I'M going to miss my pet Jaime.why do you want cause depression for me and others. Why do you want to kill my pet?' For players that have invested a lot of microtransactions and/or time, this comes as a heavy blow."
Sooner or later, we all get the plug.
Hell, there's gonna mass suicides when EVE finally goes (Tomorrow). |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6217
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 16:20:00 -
[449] - Quote
Oh, and as a testament to the great industrial capacity available in nullsec stations, we had to lock down manufacturing slots in half of Deklein, which is very well-developed for a sov region, in order to convert our pre-Crucible stockpile of POS fuel into fuel blocks. That's maybe half the industrial capacity of a single station in Ansila, which is two jumps from Jita, and has several stations with 50 manufacturing slots each which cost peanuts to use. That's amazing, isn't it? ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~ |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
428
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 16:27:00 -
[450] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Edit: Actually, nevermind, only dumb people mine roid fields
Seems not many people know it.
The information about it seems unavailable.
But seems obvious to assume, except ladar sites in all SS systems/wh's, respawn timer goes with DT. I admit it's the very first time I've payed attention to this question and my assumption is probably wrong. |
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6218
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 16:29:00 -
[451] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
only dumb people mine belts in nullsec ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~ |
Lord Zim
2222
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 16:33:00 -
[452] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Funny, they're still talking about jetcan mining. How quaint. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6808
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 16:41:00 -
[453] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Malcanis wrote:
Does it really?
What are the numbers, exactly? What's the sum value of ore in a 0.0 belt over a 1-week cycle compared to a belt in hi-sec?
Well for one, a single Veldspar roid has a lot more volume in Null sec than in Hisec, thats pretty obvious I thought, but youre not gonna mine it unless youre surrounded by blues, no little group of miners is gonna risk it out there by themselves.
So you don't have any numbers, just assumptions? MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
428
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 16:41:00 -
[454] - Quote
Andski wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: only dumb people mine belts in nullsec
The risk involved on mining in null yeah, it's exponentially higher then high sec+isk loss because of all the disruptions you might get, there's no discussion to be made about this, should even be obvious for everyone.
Then killing rabbits in some calm system with station is about 50M/h for me if I'm not disrupted with whatever job/family, you know adult things, and I just hate wasting my time killing red crosses, it's so boring. Hell Eve pve stuff is thousands times more boring and unrewarding than farming elite mobs or doing quests in wow...thought Asian MMO's were kings of endless mindless uninteresting farming, I was wrong, CCP can make it even more boring.
|
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
2805
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 17:11:00 -
[455] - Quote
CCP should really just add two zero's at the end of each player built station slots and be done with it till an industrial revamp expansion.
Also now there is the subject of belts null bears are bringing up. So how much are you wanting removed from high sec and moved to null sec? Try and be precise on what you feel is 'balanced' in percentage terms.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6809
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 17:19:00 -
[456] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:CCP should really just add two zero's at the end of each player built station slots and be done with it till an industrial revamp expansion.
Also now there is the subject of belts null bears are bringing up. So how much are you wanting removed from high sec and moved to null sec? Try and be precise on what you feel is 'balanced' in percentage terms.
it's definitely worth making the effort to give a detailed exposition of the issues for the 37th time to someone who uses the term "nullbears". MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3150
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 19:07:00 -
[457] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:CCP should really just add two zero's at the end of each player built station slots and be done with it till an industrial revamp expansion.
Also now there is the subject of belts null bears are bringing up. So how much are you wanting removed from high sec and moved to null sec? Try and be precise on what you feel is 'balanced' in percentage terms. it's definitely worth making the effort to give a detailed exposition of the issues for the 37th time to someone who uses the term "nullbears". It certainly is, if the percentage is, say, greater than 0, they will whine at you. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
457
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 21:38:00 -
[458] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Malcanis wrote:
Does it really?
What are the numbers, exactly? What's the sum value of ore in a 0.0 belt over a 1-week cycle compared to a belt in hi-sec?
Well for one, a single Veldspar roid has a lot more volume in Null sec than in Hisec, thats pretty obvious I thought, but youre not gonna mine it unless youre surrounded by blues, no little group of miners is gonna risk it out there by themselves. So you don't have any numbers, just assumptions?
Well .............. just go there with a survey scanner, its pretty easy to prove. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Lord Zim
2235
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 21:42:00 -
[459] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Well .............. just go there with a survey scanner, its pretty easy to prove. Gee I'll move to nullsec because the roids are so big and fat oh whoops I forgot it meant I had to actually pay attention to the game instead of just pressing a button or two every 2-3 minutes as I would in hisec oh well I'll make less isk for more effort because there's almost no demand for minerals in nullsec I'm sure it'll be worth it in the end Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6832
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 21:47:00 -
[460] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Malcanis wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Malcanis wrote:
Does it really?
What are the numbers, exactly? What's the sum value of ore in a 0.0 belt over a 1-week cycle compared to a belt in hi-sec?
Well for one, a single Veldspar roid has a lot more volume in Null sec than in Hisec, thats pretty obvious I thought, but youre not gonna mine it unless youre surrounded by blues, no little group of miners is gonna risk it out there by themselves. So you don't have any numbers, just assumptions? Well .............. just go there with a survey scanner, its pretty easy to prove.
Great. Let us know when you've proved your assertion. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6832
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 21:48:00 -
[461] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Well .............. just go there with a survey scanner, its pretty easy to prove. Gee I'll move to nullsec because the roids are so big and fat oh whoops I forgot it meant I had to actually pay attention to the game instead of just pressing a button or two every 2-3 minutes as I would in hisec oh well I'll make less isk for more effort because there's almost no demand for minerals in nullsec I'm sure it'll be worth it in the end
hauling minerals takes zero time and fuel c/d? MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Lord Zim
2239
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 21:50:00 -
[462] - Quote
and time is free anyways Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
457
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 23:14:00 -
[463] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:Well .............. just go there with a survey scanner, its pretty easy to prove. Gee I'll move to nullsec because the roids are so big and fat oh whoops I forgot it meant I had to actually pay attention to the game instead of just pressing a button or two every 2-3 minutes as I would in hisec oh well I'll make less isk for more effort because there's almost no demand for minerals in nullsec I'm sure it'll be worth it in the end
No you won't be paying attention to the game, you'll be paying attention to seeing your ship blow up, so mining in null sec is pointless, unless your in a massive alliance with a zillion members. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Lord Zim
2241
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 23:17:00 -
[464] - Quote
Welcome to the sarchasm, guy. You just fell in. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Ares Desideratus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
76
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 23:23:00 -
[465] - Quote
Steal from a can and everyone in the universe can legally murder you. Might be intended, I'm not sure if it's working though
*Tears |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 17:17:00 -
[466] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Mister Tuggles wrote:High sec doesn't need nerfed anymore than it has been already. It is the most dangerous place in Eve to live/play. This is absolute bullshit from start to finish. Frying Doom wrote:Yes Blue space is a problem but honestly what is there to fight for. No, it isn't a problem, the problem lies in there not being enough people in null to actually make roaming around something to do on a regular basis in nullsec. Murk Paradox wrote:Why? You've been saying the problem is with highsec. Now you're saying it isn't? He said hisec is "the absolute best game in town", which is a problem. Why should I bother mining in nullsec when it's readily available in hisec, with concord protection so I don't even have to spend any time protecting myself? Why should I bother manufacturing anything in nullsec when I can find a fucktonne of readily available manufacturing slots within 2 jumps of Jita? Edit: I almost forgot to mention how, in nullsec, you can't realistically refine and manufacture in the same system (apart from using a POS), so hisec wins out in the convenience race there as well. You're not seeing this as a problem, but it is. Nullsec should be one of the places where most people should want to go to to make money, however it isn't. The only thing nullsec is used for, largely, is PVP and supercap manufacture and some reaction, anything else is comparatively speaking inconsequential and more easily/better done in hisec. And this is wrong. Murk Paradox wrote:When people want pure lawless space, they go see null. This is at the base of your problem with seeing how null should be, null isn't supposed to be "lawless space", it's supposed to be "NPC lawless space" and "player-lawful space", i.e. it should be a place where players went to live and make their own rules. Currently the game mechanics dictate that what they do in nullsec is 1) Make supercaps 2) Some reaction 3) PVP Indy? Why? We've got hisec for that.
I understand your words, but when you take into account how people treat NBSI versus people not in their alliances, your words sadly fall short. Yes it should be that way, but it isn't. And those are the fault of the dweller. And yes, I do agree you should be able to make more money in null, and most people do! But the HOW you want to make money shouldn't necessarily transfer over to each sector of space evenly, and that's a problem. Or wait, should rats in highsec be worth the same as in null? No? Why not? Lemme guess, risk versus reward right? So highsec, which is based off of trading and manufacture, has less risk with ratting, so less reward, but ohohoh it just doesn't equate to "risk vs reward" as being the end all be all does it?
No it doesn't. And I typically think it's meant to be that way. Risk versus reward is way too open to interpretation and I think people focus on that very idea solely as to apply to everything. Because I can make more money ratting in null than mining in highsec. The only difference is, I need to pay attention and do things in null, in highsec, I can watch netflix. But still make less.
And yes, null should be a place where you have players making up rules. And they do. And those rules involve people getting blown up.
So yes, I can totally understand see your point how null has crap industry. But I also don't see where Null should have good industry, or why that would be Null's focus, because as you said, it's focused on capitals and pvp and politics and other stuff.
So for mining, sure, highsec might be the best game in town. For capitals, no it isn't. For pvp? Highly doubt that too. But mining and research and manufacturing? Sure, why not. I'd love to have an amusement park in my apartment complex but sadly, I need to go to Busch Gardens for that. They just sadly have better games and rides over there. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Lord Zim
2249
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 17:43:00 -
[467] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:I understand your words, but when you take into account how people treat NBSI versus people not in their alliances, your words sadly fall short. Yes it should be that way, but it isn't. And those are the fault of the dweller. No, it flat out isn't. I didn't move my moneymaking alt to hisec because of NBSI or how people treat people, I moved it there because it was more convenient and more profitable for what I wanted to do.
That's on CCP and how they've designed the different areas.
Murk Paradox wrote:The only difference is, I need to pay attention and do things in null, in highsec, I can watch netflix. But still make less. Ding ding ding we have a winner.
Murk Paradox wrote:So yes, I can totally understand see your point how null has crap industry. But I also don't see where Null should have good industry, or why that would be Null's focus, because as you said, it's focused on capitals and pvp and politics and other stuff. The focus of null today is building supercaps, moonmining and PVP. That's not to say this is the right focus, because nullsec is supposed to be about building an empire. What sort of empire is more or less completely devoid of people milling about, doing their daily thing? A ****** empire, that's what, and that's what nullsec has now, because hisec does too many things too well, at too low a cost.
And that's on CCP. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 17:44:00 -
[468] - Quote
Andski wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Why? You've been saying the problem is with highsec. Now you're saying it isn't? At what point did I say that? Murk Paradox wrote:Highsec is npc generated much akin to a major city. Major trade hubs, infrastructure, reasearch, the ability to do just about anything in game can be done in highsec. We all know it, and have known it.
Then you have a group of people who want to create their own space. They want their own diplomats and choose to shoot whoever they want. Their rules. Screw everyone else. Fine. You got it.
Now the "people" (ccp, empire et al) who are behind the scenes of highsec are supposed to help you make it your version of them, all the way citing it isn't "fair"? Of course it's not. It's not fair. Eve is a cold and harsh, blah blah blah. You do realize that we only have the tools CCP gives us, right? They limited us to one outpost per system, despite the fact that some NPC systems have >20 stations. Player-dropped outposts are crap, and the only way to get manufacturing AND refining in the same station is to build a Minmatar outpost and upgrade it like a madman, which nets you up to 50% refines and all of 9 manufacturing slots. Oh, let's not forget that the cost of building the station and upgrading it to that point costs about as much as a titan. When did anyone in hisec have to pay for the luxury of refining and manufacturing in the same station? Murk Paradox wrote:But you didn't want highsec, you forsook it and walked away. You wanted to make your own empire, and have done so. It's not anyone else's fault in highsec nor is it a problem of highsec, that people don't want to go to null.
In short, you did a shittier job of it than empire did creating their high security space.
When people want pure lawless space, they go see null.
No incentives are needed, because it's player generated. You want more people in null, get more people in null. Don't rest upon the fact you want more targets when you can have them at a moment's notice. You sov types do indeed do it all the time. Even come into highsec for those targets.
All this honey and vinegar crap is insane. Make your neighborhood better instead of pleading with other people to do it for you. It's your bed you made, sleep in it. So you actually have no knowledge about nullsec, got it.
"I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 17:54:00 -
[469] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:I understand your words, but when you take into account how people treat NBSI versus people not in their alliances, your words sadly fall short. Yes it should be that way, but it isn't. And those are the fault of the dweller. No, it flat out isn't. I didn't move my moneymaking alt to hisec because of NBSI or how people treat people, I moved it there because it was more convenient and more profitable for what I wanted to do. That's on CCP and how they've designed the different areas. Murk Paradox wrote:The only difference is, I need to pay attention and do things in null, in highsec, I can watch netflix. But still make less. Ding ding ding we have a winner. Murk Paradox wrote:So yes, I can totally understand see your point how null has crap industry. But I also don't see where Null should have good industry, or why that would be Null's focus, because as you said, it's focused on capitals and pvp and politics and other stuff. The focus of null today is building supercaps, moonmining and PVP. That's not to say this is the right focus, because nullsec is supposed to be about building an empire. What sort of empire is more or less completely devoid of people milling about, doing their daily thing? A ****** empire, that's what, and that's what nullsec has now, because hisec does too many things too well, at too low a cost. And that's on CCP.
You ever watch the movie Dune? That's the closest thing I can compare. What you're saying isn't wrong. Certain areas in null focus on cap building because hey, it's wartorn! Suprise suprise. Escalations and one upping each other!
And yes, I guess my comment about making less in highsec compared to null makes me a winner, didn't really need to drive home the point I was right, but er, ok. I figured this was about highsec making more, which it doesn't, only does in certain aspects that are what that sector is based on but cool.
But in short, your empire is what you make out of it. This isn't to say you can duplicate highsec, but then, why would you want to? If you wanted highsec, you wouldn't want to leave. You'd have stayed. So I am still not seeing the point of how it's "broken" except for saying nullmining doesn't compare, and industry doesn't compare.
But uhm, I also don't think it's meant to. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Lord Zim
2250
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 18:03:00 -
[470] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:You ever watch the movie Dune? That's the closest thing I can compare. What you're saying isn't wrong. Certain areas in null focus on cap building because hey, it's wartorn! Suprise suprise. Escalations and one upping each other! I've watched it multiple times, and that's not even remotely close to what empires in nullsec should be all about.
Unless, of course, you've got this deep-rooted wish for empires in nullsec to be the same as some hobos in special suits living in caves and riding giant worms on their way to the local dance, while the royalty needs a levitation device to haul them from one chickenbone to the next.
Murk Paradox wrote:And yes, I guess my comment about making less in highsec compared to null No. Less effort. And, of course, next to no risk. And when comparing industry in hisec vs nullsec, it does make more, especially in comparison to effort.
Murk Paradox wrote:But in short, your empire is what you make out of it. This isn't to say you can duplicate highsec, but then, why would you want to? Because then people would feel an attachment to the space they inhabit, which they currently more or less do not.
Murk Paradox wrote:If you wanted highsec, you wouldn't want to leave. You'd have stayed. Yes, that's precisely the point, but then someone comes along and says "hey wait a minute, I want more space, because we've grown" or "I'm going to kick over your sandcastle just because I feel like it". And, because the people who do live there does have an attachment to their space, they'll actually put up more than a token resistence.
Murk Paradox wrote:So I am still not seeing the point of how it's "broken" except for saying nullmining doesn't compare, and industry doesn't compare. You can lead a horse to water, you can't make him drink, I suppose. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
|
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 18:28:00 -
[471] - Quote
So wait, your argument is solely based on null being highsec, and it's failed because it isn't highsec? It isn't highsec! At the cost of calling you names I'm going to stop myself there.
And no, you missed my point of dune altogether. Each faction, or "house" of Dune would be a seperate sector, with the Empire being, well, Empire. Notice how they always had the BETTER spice mining and industry? Harkonnens had better military, etc?
And yes, in highsec, for less effort, you can indeed less money than in nullsec with more effort, and in a cost:effort ratio it is higher in highsec, but then you're what, sanctioning for laziness? I don't get it.
If you want to be a toadstool afk mining in highsec, go do it. If you want to put a bit of effort into more fun and more isk, go to null. If you want to find more ships to shoot more consistently, go to lowsec. Not a huge mentality that involves a lot of thinking.
I think a huge problem is here we have an argument based on people wanting to re invent the wheel. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2479
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 18:32:00 -
[472] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:So wait, your argument is solely based on null being highsec, and it's failed because it isn't highsec Only if 'highsec' is its defined by disproportionate secondary economy superiority in relation to risk vs. reward. Otherwise that is not his argument. |
Lord Zim
2252
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 18:38:00 -
[473] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:So wait, your argument is solely based on null being highsec, and it's failed because it isn't highsec? No. Your interpretation couldn't be more wrong.
Murk Paradox wrote:And no, you missed my point of dune altogether. Each faction, or "house" of Dune would be a seperate sector, with the Empire being, well, Empire. Notice how they always had the BETTER spice mining and industry? Harkonnens had better military, etc? Notice how eve isn't dune?
Murk Paradox wrote:And yes, in highsec, for less effort, you can indeed less money than in nullsec with more effort, and in a cost:effort ratio it is higher in highsec, but then you're what, sanctioning for laziness? I don't get it. This makes no sense. Rewrite it so it actually makes sense.
Murk Paradox wrote:If you want to be a toadstool afk mining in highsec, go do it. If you want to put a bit of effort into more fun and more isk, go to null. If you want to find more ships to shoot more consistently, go to lowsec. Not a huge mentality that involves a lot of thinking. This isn't even remotely related to what I've been talking about.
Murk Paradox wrote:I think a huge problem is here we have an argument based on people wanting to re invent the wheel. No, I want nullsec to have its sov system changed to a more gradual system, instead of this shittastic system we have with the dominion sov system, and I want alliances to be financed through their space actually being used. I want nullsec to be good enough in comparison to hisec that it makes economic sense for our industrialists, who currently reside in hisec instead of in the space they've fought for, to move back. I want a nullsec which could supply itself T1-wise if they wanted to, instead of going "right, guys, we need 500 maelstroms and x billion tonnes of POS fuel, buy minerals in jita and invade a system within 2 jumps of jita and build it all, then export it to deklein because it's cheaper than trying to do that locally in deklein".
If that is something you don't think would make the game better, then I don't know what to tell you. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 18:45:00 -
[474] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:So wait, your argument is solely based on null being highsec, and it's failed because it isn't highsec Only if 'highsec' is its defined by disproportionate secondary economy superiority in relation to risk vs. reward. Otherwise that is not his argument.
So he isn't saying that null should have industry like what highsec has? Very well then. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Lord Zim
2254
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 18:46:00 -
[475] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:So wait, your argument is solely based on null being highsec, and it's failed because it isn't highsec Only if 'highsec' is its defined by disproportionate secondary economy superiority in relation to risk vs. reward. Otherwise that is not his argument. So he isn't saying that null should have industry like what highsec has? Very well then. That's not me saying "null should be hisec", that's me saying "null should be more desirable to live in than hisec". Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 18:51:00 -
[476] - Quote
But you're still asking for something that isn't there by design. I'm not going to play pattycake with you since you are repeating yourself in different words since you just want to kneejerk answer small bits.
In short, null isn't meant for industry. Highsec is. Ergo, it won't make sense because it isn't meant to.
And yes, highsec mining has a better RATIO for risk vs reward, but not a higher output of isk. So while you can make 10m/hr mining doing jackshit, you can make twice that in null ratting without breaking a sweat. It does however cost you a few more button clicks. Boohoo. Welcome to the risk aspect.
If you haven't realized over the years that there is supposed to be a synergy between null and hs for industry and yields of minerals, I don't understand why you haven't clamored for multiple servers, which each sec having it's own.
"I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2481
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 18:55:00 -
[477] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:So wait, your argument is solely based on null being highsec, and it's failed because it isn't highsec Only if 'highsec' is its defined by disproportionate secondary economy superiority in relation to risk vs. reward. Otherwise that is not his argument. So he isn't saying that null should have industry like what highsec has? Very well then. Correct. He is saying that null should have industrial capacity in order to meet its needs. Personally, I say the real solution is that all sec regions should have industry adjusted to reflect their ship consumption rate. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 18:56:00 -
[478] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:So wait, your argument is solely based on null being highsec, and it's failed because it isn't highsec Only if 'highsec' is its defined by disproportionate secondary economy superiority in relation to risk vs. reward. Otherwise that is not his argument. So he isn't saying that null should have industry like what highsec has? Very well then. That's not me saying "null should be hisec", that's me saying "null should be more desirable to live in than hisec".
Well, "should" is a matter of perspective. What aspect of null "should" be more desirable to move into it than highsec? The industry? Please. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Lord Zim
2254
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 18:57:00 -
[479] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:But you're still asking for something that isn't there by design. I'm not going to play pattycake with you since you are repeating yourself in different words since you just want to kneejerk answer small bits. Yes, I know it isn't there by design, why do you think I'm saying it should be there? Oh right, because it's not there and it should be.
Murk Paradox wrote:In short, null isn't meant for industry. Highsec is. Ergo, it won't make sense because it isn't meant to. Wrong.
Murk Paradox wrote:And yes, highsec mining has a better RATIO for risk vs reward, but not a higher output of isk. So while you can make 10m/hr mining doing jackshit, you can make twice that in null ratting without breaking a sweat. It does however cost you a few more button clicks. Boohoo. Welcome to the risk aspect. Let's take a look at what mining in hisec actually means effort/reward wise: oh dear I have to click something every 2-3 minutes, and I can watch movies or read a book in the meantime. Compare that to nullsec and I have to pay attention to local and the intel channels at all times, or I lose a 200m+ ship. Or I just lose it to an awoxer.
Murk Paradox wrote:If you haven't realized over the years that there is supposed to be a synergy between null and hs for industry and yields of minerals, I don't understand why you haven't clamored for multiple servers, which each sec having it's own. The only reason there is "a synergy" between null and hisec is because CCP hasn't done their job and made nullsec somewhere you not only fight over, but actually live in as well. And oh look, nullsec is more or less empty outside of fleet fights, this is awesome game design right here, that is. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Lord Zim
2254
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 18:59:00 -
[480] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Well, "should" is a matter of perspective. What aspect of null "should" be more desirable to move into it than highsec? The industry? Please. Every aspect except for safety. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6852
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 18:59:00 -
[481] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote: In short, null isn't meant for industry. Highsec is.
Says who? A dev? Hilmar? The book of Revelations? Link it, please.
If nullsec isn't "meant" for industry, then why are we able to build factory stations, mine ore and so on?
Of course nullsec is "meant" for industry. It just isn't good enough at it and a rebalance is required. Again and again you come back to the same old discredited "Hi-sec is far better for industry therefore hi-sec should be far better for industry" line. This is, what? The 4th time you tried this? The 5th?
If CCP make 0.0 ten times better for industry than hisec tomorrow downtime, will you be telling people "Oh... well hi-sec isn't meant for industry."? MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2481
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 19:00:00 -
[482] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote: Well, "should" is a matter of perspective. What aspect of null "should" be more desirable to move into it than highsec? The industry? Please.
All of it from a potential profit perspective, offset by risk of loss and opportunity cost from maintaining and defending the space. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 19:14:00 -
[483] - Quote
So in short, you guys should clamor for seperate servers. A highsec server, a lowsec server and a nullsec server.
Because you guys are adopting a "grass is greaner on the other side of the fence" mentality as to what you "should" have, as a player of a game you log in to. Instead of playing by the rules, you're finding ways to find issue with them.
You don't want to ferry stuff from highsec, which is the best area for industry, because you think null should have good enough industry to not warrant it, therefore removing highsec need from nullsec desires. Ok fair enough.
Take away the synergy. Cool. Now it's nullsec dependant. Why have highsec at all then? Let's see how far your idea takes us down the rabbit hole shall we? Is your end desire to have a Wow-Esque model of shards and servers and clusters? Because alientating one security of space is doing exactly that.
So ramp up industry in null! Hell yea! Now gives highsec better bounty rats! Why not? It's none of null's business now! They are their own entity! **** off nullbear, this is my area! Oh wait, highsec is governed by Concord! That's right, highsec can't stop you from entering (not without risk of course, sec standings and all that).
So now you have a player governed highsec because highsec has better industry and it makes nulls jelly. Boohoo.
And Malcanis, of course the devs have stated that null isn't meant to focus on industry. How can 10 years of developing be so wrong? If it was so broken, don't you think it would have had something done about it by now? Oh wait, you want the absolute of a dev typing it? Then go find it, not my problem to prove against your accusations. I'm not the one trying to reinvent the wheel here.
"I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 19:16:00 -
[484] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Murk Paradox wrote: Well, "should" is a matter of perspective. What aspect of null "should" be more desirable to move into it than highsec? The industry? Please.
All of it from a potential profit perspective, offset by risk of loss and opportunity cost from maintaining and defending the space.
But you can make more isk in null than highsec. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Lord Zim
2254
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 19:16:00 -
[485] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:So in short, you guys should clamor for seperate servers. A highsec server, a lowsec server and a nullsec server. No. Don't be daft. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6852
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 19:17:00 -
[486] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:So in short, you guys should clamor for seperate servers. A highsec server, a lowsec server and a nullsec server.
Because you guys are adopting a "grass is greaner on the other side of the fence" mentality as to what you "should" have, as a player of a game you log in to. Instead of playing by the rules, you're finding ways to find issue with them.
You don't want to ferry stuff from highsec, which is the best area for industry, because you think null should have good enough industry to not warrant it, therefore removing highsec need from nullsec desires. Ok fair enough.
Take away the synergy. Cool. Now it's nullsec dependant. Why have highsec at all then? Let's see how far your idea takes us down the rabbit hole shall we? Is your end desire to have a Wow-Esque model of shards and servers and clusters? Because alientating one security of space is doing exactly that.
So ramp up industry in null! Hell yea! Now gives highsec better bounty rats! Why not? It's none of null's business now! They are their own entity! **** off nullbear, this is my area! Oh wait, highsec is governed by Concord! That's right, highsec can't stop you from entering (not without risk of course, sec standings and all that).
So now you have a player governed highsec because highsec has better industry and it makes nulls jelly. Boohoo.
And Malcanis, of course the devs have stated that null isn't meant to focus on industry. How can 10 years of developing be so wrong? If it was so broken, don't you think it would have had something done about it by now? Oh wait, you want the absolute of a dev typing it? Then go find it, not my problem to prove against your accusations. I'm not the one trying to reinvent the wheel here.
The squirming and special pleading here is delicious. Oh god no we might have to compete on a level playing field! PANIC! MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6852
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 19:18:00 -
[487] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Murk Paradox wrote: Well, "should" is a matter of perspective. What aspect of null "should" be more desirable to move into it than highsec? The industry? Please.
All of it from a potential profit perspective, offset by risk of loss and opportunity cost from maintaining and defending the space. But you can make more isk in null than highsec.
Not even close. All the richest players operate in empire. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 19:21:00 -
[488] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Murk Paradox wrote: Well, "should" is a matter of perspective. What aspect of null "should" be more desirable to move into it than highsec? The industry? Please.
All of it from a potential profit perspective, offset by risk of loss and opportunity cost from maintaining and defending the space. But you can make more isk in null than highsec. Not even close. All the richest players operate in empire.
Traders do yea. But for a person to person basis, null is richer. Null just spends more. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 19:23:00 -
[489] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:So in short, you guys should clamor for seperate servers. A highsec server, a lowsec server and a nullsec server.
Because you guys are adopting a "grass is greaner on the other side of the fence" mentality as to what you "should" have, as a player of a game you log in to. Instead of playing by the rules, you're finding ways to find issue with them.
You don't want to ferry stuff from highsec, which is the best area for industry, because you think null should have good enough industry to not warrant it, therefore removing highsec need from nullsec desires. Ok fair enough.
Take away the synergy. Cool. Now it's nullsec dependant. Why have highsec at all then? Let's see how far your idea takes us down the rabbit hole shall we? Is your end desire to have a Wow-Esque model of shards and servers and clusters? Because alientating one security of space is doing exactly that.
So ramp up industry in null! Hell yea! Now gives highsec better bounty rats! Why not? It's none of null's business now! They are their own entity! **** off nullbear, this is my area! Oh wait, highsec is governed by Concord! That's right, highsec can't stop you from entering (not without risk of course, sec standings and all that).
So now you have a player governed highsec because highsec has better industry and it makes nulls jelly. Boohoo.
And Malcanis, of course the devs have stated that null isn't meant to focus on industry. How can 10 years of developing be so wrong? If it was so broken, don't you think it would have had something done about it by now? Oh wait, you want the absolute of a dev typing it? Then go find it, not my problem to prove against your accusations. I'm not the one trying to reinvent the wheel here.
The squirming and special pleading here is delicious. Oh god no we might have to compete on a level playing field! PANIC!
I don't understand why you quoted me with that response. I spend more time in null than highsec. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6852
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 19:23:00 -
[490] - Quote
Hi-sec isn't meant to be the place where you can be the richest! MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
|
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 19:23:00 -
[491] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:So in short, you guys should clamor for seperate servers. A highsec server, a lowsec server and a nullsec server. No. Don't be daft.
I'm not the one being daft here. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3621
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 19:23:00 -
[492] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Murk Paradox wrote: Well, "should" is a matter of perspective. What aspect of null "should" be more desirable to move into it than highsec? The industry? Please.
All of it from a potential profit perspective, offset by risk of loss and opportunity cost from maintaining and defending the space. But you can make more isk in null than highsec. Not even close. All the richest players operate in empire.
Open VFK to the richest players? Yes I am being provocative but in the end just having industry buffed etc. etc. won't bring wealthy players to you if you kill them. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Lord Zim
2254
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 19:27:00 -
[493] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:So in short, you guys should clamor for seperate servers. A highsec server, a lowsec server and a nullsec server. No. Don't be daft. I'm not the one being daft here. You're saying nullsec shouldn't be the place where everyone who aren't sissies should aspire to go and live. That's daft.
You're saying that because I'm advocating a separation of sorts between hisec and nullsec, that they must be moved to different shards. That's daft. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Lord Zim
2255
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 19:50:00 -
[494] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Open VFK to the richest players? What's in it for us? Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6852
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 19:51:00 -
[495] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Open VFK to the richest players? What's in it for us?
The privilige of seeing people you promise not to shoot making money in your space! MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 19:58:00 -
[496] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Hi-sec isn't meant to be the place where you can be the richest!
Well, 2 sides to that.
1)stop spending so much in null. Income is higher in null, but so are spending habits. Refer to your local null alliance titan loss for details (or whatever high end item that got blown up).
2)Tell that to the player market traders that drive the economy. When all you do is buy or sell... it's bound to generate profits.
All in all, if so many ships were not blown up in null, because hey, null is supposed to be industrial as you say (=P), then null would be far richer. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 19:59:00 -
[497] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:So in short, you guys should clamor for seperate servers. A highsec server, a lowsec server and a nullsec server. No. Don't be daft. I'm not the one being daft here. You're saying nullsec shouldn't be the place where everyone who aren't sissies should aspire to go and live. That's daft. You're saying that because I'm advocating a separation of sorts between hisec and nullsec, that they must be moved to different shards. That's daft.
Tell that to the devs then. They are the ones who created the game you want to change. I'm just pointing it out. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Lord Zim
2255
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 20:02:00 -
[498] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Tell that to the devs then. They are the ones who created the game you want to change. What do you think I'm doing? Sucking myself off?
Murk Paradox wrote:I'm just pointing it out. By telling us we're wrong for daring to try to tell CCP their game is suboptimally designed. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 20:24:00 -
[499] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Tell that to the devs then. They are the ones who created the game you want to change. What do you think I'm doing? Sucking myself off? Murk Paradox wrote:I'm just pointing it out. By telling us we're wrong for daring to try to tell CCP their game is suboptimally designed.
Apparently you are. And no, not at all.
You decide the order in which I'm answering your questions.
You are way too hostile it seems. Maybe you're the reason null is broken. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Lord Zim
2255
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 20:27:00 -
[500] - Quote
No, null would be less broken if I had any say in it. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
|
Jamyl Khanid
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 20:33:00 -
[501] - Quote
I went to Null and it was full of Scrubs |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6852
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 20:34:00 -
[502] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Malcanis wrote:Hi-sec isn't meant to be the place where you can be the richest! Well, 2 sides to that. 1)stop spending so much in null.
unfortunately, the manufacture of everything we need to buy is heavily subsidised in hi-sec. These subsidies mean that local industry is unable to compete - especially in addition to the many other unfair restrictions placed on 0.0 industry which would prevent us from building enough of what we needed. Even if hi-sec were to be deleted tonight, there simply isn't the manufacturing capacity in nullsec. It's just not there. This is an important point that has been explained to you ten or twelve times already.
You can't fly ISK into a fight... MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6852
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 20:36:00 -
[503] - Quote
Jamyl Khanid wrote:I went to Null and it was full of Scrubs
Much like when you look into a mirror. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 20:38:00 -
[504] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Malcanis wrote:Hi-sec isn't meant to be the place where you can be the richest! Well, 2 sides to that. 1)stop spending so much in null. unfortunately, the manufacture of everything we need to buy is heavily subsidised in hi-sec. These subsidies mean that local industry is unable to compete - especially in addition to the many other unfair restrictions placed on 0.0 industry which would prevent us from building enough of what we needed. Even if hi-sec were to be deleted tonight, there simply isn't the manufacturing capacity in nullsec. It's just not there. This is an important point that has been explained to you ten or twelve times already. You can't fly ISK into a fight...
All those 50bil and 67bil ships are arguing with you. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Jamyl Khanid
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 20:41:00 -
[505] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Jamyl Khanid wrote:I went to Null and it was full of Scrubs Much like when you look into a mirror.
The mirror in my CQ told me I was fairest of them all. Mirror don't like bich
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Lord Zim
2255
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 20:44:00 -
[506] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:All those 50bil and 67bil ships are arguing with you. You mean the only thing you can't build anywhere else except in sov space?
Gee, I wonder why those are built in sov space. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 20:45:00 -
[507] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:All those 50bil and 67bil ships are arguing with you. You mean the only thing you can't build anywhere else except in sov space? Gee, I wonder why those are built in sov space.
Yea strange isnt it. Damn that highsec for having everything. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6854
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 20:50:00 -
[508] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:All those 50bil and 67bil ships are arguing with you. You mean the only thing you can't build anywhere else except in sov space? Gee, I wonder why those are built in sov space. Yea strange isnt it. Damn that highsec for having everything. Because miners can afford everything~!
You're a living example of the quote
"It's difficult to make a man understand something when his living depends on not understanding it"
Don't worry, you'll understand soon enough. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 20:55:00 -
[509] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:All those 50bil and 67bil ships are arguing with you. You mean the only thing you can't build anywhere else except in sov space? Gee, I wonder why those are built in sov space. Yea strange isnt it. Damn that highsec for having everything. Because miners can afford everything~! You're a living example of the quote "It's difficult to make a man understand something when his living depends on not understanding it" Don't worry, you'll understand soon enough.
I don't think you understand.
Let me say it again in case you missed it the first time.
I don't live in highsec. Or is that your point? Now you are just being confusing. Do you even play eve or just forum warrior? Too much pvp, not enough industry in your posts. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6856
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 20:56:00 -
[510] - Quote
I heard you say it. I just think you're lying, either by omission or simply by not telling the truth. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
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Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 21:23:00 -
[511] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I heard you say it. I just think you're lying, either by omission or simply by not telling the truth.
I guess it's up to you to prove me wrong then. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2484
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 21:24:00 -
[512] - Quote
proving a negative is impossible proving a positive, with the use of killboards, is simple |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 21:27:00 -
[513] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:proving a negative is impossible proving a positive, with the use of killboards, is simple
I don't get what you mean, but it isn't hard to track people. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6857
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 21:31:00 -
[514] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Malcanis wrote:I heard you say it. I just think you're lying, either by omission or simply by not telling the truth. I guess it's up to you to prove me wrong then.
Oh now you want people to back up their own assertions? MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 21:35:00 -
[515] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Malcanis wrote:I heard you say it. I just think you're lying, either by omission or simply by not telling the truth. I guess it's up to you to prove me wrong then. Oh now you want people to back up their own assertions?
Well, you've been advocating it so far. Who's side do you want to take? "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3621
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 21:45:00 -
[516] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Open VFK to the richest players? What's in it for us? The privilige of seeing people you promise not to shoot making money in your space!
Ever seen what happens to say UK and NY for the pure fact they are most welcoming to markets and investors? Ever thought what kind of profit would yield a "new Jita" to the station owners if they could cash in the broker fees? Technetium would be dismissed as a mere waste of time. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2484
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 22:03:00 -
[517] - Quote
difference being UK and NY don't operate in a different dimension where physical laws which prevent any building over 2 stories from being built or the industrial revolution from ever happening
a better example would be say in the wild west where the eastern states sent wave after wave of violent gold prospectors to forming rough and tumble mining towns that would later develop into cities. Except the city thing never happened due to the 'alternate physics'' thing so the gold-mining militias just kept on loading their saddlebags with gold and coming back with eastern-manufactured guns to secure more land claims/kill all outsiders . Eventually the gold militias ditched the horses and saddlebag options and developed very efficient railroads that made gold export/weapon import hella efficient.
Soon the gold economy crashed due to this oversupply, but conveniently oil was discovered in the west and the gold economy could be phased out over some of gold militias becoming oil barons and others becoming feudal lords charging for access to their gold mines in order to compete with the oil barons. Another development was flight technology, which made oil delivery to the east and weapon delivery to the west trivial. Another good use of airplanes was using it to patrol the wastes for any Easterners who thought it wise to build some themselves some picks and go out 'looking for gold' and then eject a tactical parachuter team right on top of their old-tymey mining camp.
The eastern prospector yelling "i could build you... more shaaaccckkksss..." is you |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
6860
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 22:33:00 -
[518] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Malcanis wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Malcanis wrote:I heard you say it. I just think you're lying, either by omission or simply by not telling the truth. I guess it's up to you to prove me wrong then. Oh now you want people to back up their own assertions? Well, you've been advocating it so far. Who's side do you want to take? I'm either telling the truth and you're wrong, or you're right and I'm lying about being in null. Not my fault you can't trust anything.
My evidence is that your arguments don't match the reality of 0.0 as it actually is. If you're not lying then you're either personally hostile to the idea of non-combat activity taking place in 0.0, or your experience of it is extremely limited and deerives mainly from reading the General Discussion hi-sec crew talking points. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Lord Zim
2259
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 22:35:00 -
[519] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:My evidence is that your arguments don't match the reality of 0.0 as it actually is. If you're not lying then you're either personally hostile to the idea of non-combat activity taking place in 0.0, or your experience of it is extremely limited and deerives mainly from reading the General Discussion hi-sec crew talking points. At quick glance, most of that char's losses and kills are in lowsec, a few losses in hisec and some in delve, and he was first sighted in august 2012. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
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