So talking about nerfing hi-sec to make null sec competitive may not make much sense at all because it might not accomplish anything except wrecking hi-sec industry and possibly handing industry over to a very few large producers, especially in large and strong coalitions.

Sounds like a better idea to allow ten thousand man coalitions the ability to control industry rather than the current system where one dude, a spreadsheet, and a bunch of plexxed alts can do the same thing.

I can totally see some areas of null where the space really sucks, and they have nothing else to do, or they are a very safe place to build, building huge quantities that dwarf most any other place. They will probably take their stuff to Jita too.

So lets not talk about nerfing hi-sec because its not a very good idea.

If nerfing HS is not a good idea, how do you propose to improve Nullsec industry such that it can compete with Free, Unlimited, Risk Free, and Convenient HS Industry?

As I said, I'm pretty sure now the only way to improve nullsec industry viable is to encourage some way to keep it out in nullsec... at least with current jump freighter costs. when you stop and do the math, I'm not sure null sec CAN be viable without ruining high sec completely.

How would increasing the cost to manufacture ruin HS at all? Cost goes up, Sell price goes up, profit stays the same, no problem.

I'm not sure null sec CAN be viable without ruining high sec completely.

Increasing it a little bit is no problem. Increasing it a lot? Is massive inflation.

Increasing it a little bit is no problem. Increasing it a lot? Is massive inflation. Not to mention everyone else's income remains largely the same, so its a significant effect to non-industrials in general.

Nope. Cost increases != Inflation.

I'm not sure null sec CAN be viable without ruining high sec completely.

Stop fear mongering. You just don't want to lose the perfect utopia you've got going right now.

Already did the math.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation

First sentence. I can bring up other sources if wiki isn't good enough. But when 3 seconds is all it takes to prove you wrong.. well...

If it's the same caliber of math you've shown in this thread already, go ahead and post it. I can't think of a better proof that nerfing highsec would work like a charm.

You should read further. Inflation is caused by an increase in the supply of money (i.e. ISK faucets) which devalue that money. An increase in manufacturing costs that is passed on to the consumer does not automatically mean inflation since the purchasing power of the money has remained the same.

Shifting where stuff is built is the goal.

Anyway, the same way that most items are not priced in the long term based on the "minerals I mine are free" crowd, there's nothing to suggest that a competitive nullsec would result in prices being based on "the use/risk of my effort/time/capital is free" crowd.

The likeliest result is that prices would increase such that HS industry would have roughly similar profits to what they have now, and Nullsec would show higher balance sheet profits (compensating for increased costs) but similar Economic profits (takes into account increased risk, etc) to what HS has.

If nerfing HS is not a good idea, how do you propose to improve Nullsec industry such that it can compete with Free, Unlimited, Risk Free, and Convenient HS Industry?

crap i've been caught out linking a wikipedia article after only reading the first sentence

quick, google something, maybe it'll save me

Shifting production, more slots, more offices, better POS is one thing. Rendering hi-sec obsolete is another thing. Also, shifting production from very many players to a few powerful players cuts out a large amount of the player base from industry. That's not good for the game.

For those who convinced that inflation is ONLY the increase in money supply....

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/inflation.asp
http://www.investorwords.com/2452/inflation.html (key phrase: "...OFTEN caused...", not always)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/inflation specifically refers to "cost-push inflation"

Do I need more or do you surrender yet?

The wiki article doesn't even say what they're stating, they're just being children.

Newsflash: This is already the case.

You seem to be under the impression that large nullsec alliances haven't taken over manufacturing and industry, but they have. They do it in highsec because it's the best place to do it.

If you don't see why this is a problem I don't think I could convince you that the sky is blue, either.

Increased manufacturing costs will not result in an increase of base mineral prices, or salvage, or other harvestable goods. The price of certain finished goods would increase because that cost would be passed on to the consumer. The purchasing power of ISK does not go down since you can still purchase the same amount of some things, but other prices do go up (note that two of those definitions include the phrase "overall general upward price movement"; we're not talking about general price movements).

You are very easily frustrated and quick with the ad hominems.

A general production increase causes a general increase in all manufactured goods. As what part of mining prices takes into account is the cost of operations, which increases with the finished goods prices increasing, its not unreasonable to expect mineral prices to increase.

Who wouldn't get frustrated at people who are trying to say "hey, this article says this" in a discussion when nowhere is it stated as such. In every single article on inflation, it may mention increase in cash supply as A cause, but I challenge you to find one where it says its the only cause.

Stop fear mongering. You just don't want to lose the perfect utopia you've got going right now.

Hi-sec isn't nirvana. If you were asking for a program of modest but measurable changes, implemented one after the other, to gauge success before going too far, people might not be so defensive when confronted by your ideas. Odds are they wouldn't even care if that was the case. Your contempt for hi-sec people doesn't inspire much in the way of comity either.

But who am I to tell you to stop trolling? I guess I'm a hypocrite.

Well gee, that's kind of what I was advocating. It seems like we differ on what we consider measurable and modest changes. I consider a measurable and modest change to be something like removing 100% refining in NPC stations, whereas most people who come across such threads think a wonderful and modest change would be to give nullsec higher than 100% refining because yeah, that's a wonderful idea that can't possibly be exploited.