...have you been away for the last 3 years or something? Incarna, the Jita monument/protest, the massive flood of Spaceship related improvements in the last few years?

Let's see - 44 pages in and CCP has not commented once.

Now time for a reality check - do you believe CCP cares about how industry is lopsided towards high sec over null sec? Do you believe they are going to be diligent on fixing this issue or pass off some choice words to appease some players? After the Noble Exchange fiasco, personally I have started viewing CCP not as a gaming company run by gamers but as a business looking to make the most doing the least like any other business.

How long has industry been as it current stands?

How long has mining been the same old, same old?

How long has player owned stations been an issue that gets a "too much work for too little reward" answer for improving?

How long has sov been an issue?

Yet everyone cheers that the game is growing year after year. So why should CCP change anything when they know the players have been accepting everything dished out, will complain, yet return for more?

They also have cheaper manufacturing facilities. I know, the last company I have worked for, designed and produced those manufacturing facilities for a lot of Chinese factories. So cheaper that it costed less to have their facilities designed and produced in Europe and shipped to them to produce in there, than any production done in Europe or USA.

You completely lost me on that one.

Are you saying that you built the facilities and then sold them to China at a lower price than you do to Europe?

Or are you saying that you built the facilities and then rented them to china, so they cost the Chinese less to operate?

I think they mean they produced machines in Europe, sent them to China, and had the chinese use the imported machines to make goods and ship the goods to Europe.

And this was apparently cheaper than making and using machines in Europe.


Europe has got nothing on highsec, then. You don't even have to make facilities, the NPCs let you use them for nearly nothing.

Its possible find common ground between hi-sec and null but its becoming clear that isn't really possible in this thread. The null agenda people are set on their program of changes which they developed and honed in other threads, and are now repeating over and over again. Any alternative to their program will not be considered. Flaws and difficulties in their plan are being actively ignored and sidestepped.

Bringing hi-sec slot costs into line with null costs, solutions to lack of low end minerals in null and other things cannot be discussed because the null people already have their position and are unwilling to budge.

If I try to make a constructive post that helps fix some of the perceived problems, look for a compromise position, or accept any of their points as a legitimate grievance, it will only taken it as a validation of their entire program. They will accept no alternatives to their plan. Its all or nothing. It doesn't matter to them how unrealistic their changes are, and that the odds of CCP actually following through with their changes is low bordering on the non-existent because they are so severe. They stick to their position with religious zeal. The only thing they guarantee with this behavior is full, unyielding opposition.

I find this thread entertaining though. I will continue to post. Never stop posting.

I find this thread entertaining though. I will continue to post. Never stop posting.

So tell me your ideas so that I might convert to them if I believe they are better than the ones I currently have.

I must admit I do like new ideas and perceived problems.

So tell me your ideas so that I might convert to them if I believe they are better than the ones I currently have.

I'm glad people are taking the time here to ensure that my internet spaceship industry mirrors as closely as possible their bastardized version of economic history.

The one where highsec is the best ever, forever, I hope.

CCP I request a downvote button specifically for Buzzy Warstl's posts.

I haven't seen so much kneejerk since they decided to buff mining barges and exhumers.

That was what I could not understand, If the machines are built in Europe and sold to China doesn't that mean the costs the companies are saving are in relation to wages not the cost of the equipment. Kind of exactly what I said?

As I have yet to see any argument as to how renting equipment is cheaper than owing your own in relation to running costs. As the initial capital expenditure is obviously higher if you buy the manufacturing equipment.

Yes those companies that out source do so not due to cheaper manufacturing facilities but cheaper wages.

Downvoting should be a thing, perhaps.

Will it hurt the nullsec posters? Please say yes.

CCP I request a downvote button specifically for Buzzy Warstl's posts.

I haven't seen so much kneejerk since they decided to buff mining barges and exhumers.

Mostly depends on the ratio of high sec poster to null sec poster. If it follow in-game population, null sec poster are doomed to negative likes count...

That would totally hurt them btw.

The truth hurts that much?

I haven't seen so much parochial thinking since last time I browsed the WoW boards.

Nullsec has the most access, the most things that can be done, industry that is pulled many different ways by the demands of supercap production, moon mining, and drug production in addition to local production of things they can perfectly well produce and import from lowsec (where there are *quite* adequate production facilities at highsec prices without the need to brave a single gate camp for access)).

The only reason I can see for this crusade to gut highsec industry is that there are too many production lines to do a full manipulation to lock people out with the resources they have at the moment, because everything they are asking for but that they already have.

Go back in the thread and read them. I took the time to try to contribute to the thread and look at things from the opposite point of view. I proposed 2 things a bunch pages ago and they were all ignored. One was about bringing null POS costs into line with hi-sec slot costs. The other was about making low ends available in null at a competitive cost. If both of those don't happen I don't see how null can expect to challenge hi-sec. I frankly don't care enough about converting you to bother going back and re-posting them. I don't expect a different response from the one I already got. I don't expect you to try to meet me half way or to propose a reasonable alternative.

Downvoting should be a thing, perhaps.

Will it hurt the nullsec posters? Please say yes.

No, because those export equipment are required to fulfill so low standards in terms of automation, quality control, safeties (and much more) that it costs much less to produce than the same stuff for western countries. That's for amortization costs.

Then their cycles time is faster which for high volume is very important, the NOK pieces are vastly less so you make a 2% production increase right there, you generally need to support less reconfigurations (they cost a good number of working hours each) and "model recipes" and a number of other details.

Nice buzzwords, buzzy.
Doesn't change the facts of the matter though.

Doesn't change a thing, I think it's a much better description than anybody else has managed yet, though.

Really, looking at the realities, and the resources that are available to nullsec players, the whole "nerf highsec industry" thing is nonsense of the first order: the sort of thing that players come up with when they are bored.

Assuming you are right, why would the players be bored?

My thoughts for fixing null:

1. Lower cost to build outposts and allow them to be built on any planet in nullsec systems.

This makes them like a POS upgrade at the alliance level. But they need to be destructible and permanantly anchored while not being conquerable. This keeps people from tearing down their outposts at the first sign of danger and adds risks to alliances having one. It also keeps an opposing alliance from steamrolling a system and getting a fully capable indy system in place.

This also allows alliances to build heavily fortified massive indy systems where they can build huge amounts of supplies for the entire alliance without needing to rely on empire so much but at the same time it would make a tempting target for their enemies,


2. Encourage indy in nullsec:

• Add 50 manufacturing slots to outposts (same as in empire) but have a time multiplier of .75
• Add 30 ME/PE/Copy/invention slots with time multiplier of .6
• Increase refining rate to 50%
• Increase manufacturing and research taxes/fees in empire to something other than 333 isk/hr...lol

3. Make outposts useful but expensive to operate.

Have the outpost require fuel to run just like a POS but 5x as much.

Make upgrades like:

• titan/SC docking for a large fee
• taxes/fees from market items sold there go to alliance
• ore compression without the need for a rorqual
• Stargate lockdowns (limited to 1 per region) disabling the gates to non alliance members in the adjacent systems. This would allow for "safe" mining/ratting...as long as the gates aren't hacked by an EWAR/blackop/recon ship with codebreaker mods.

4. Remove jump capability of Jump freighter.

As it stands JF make it too easy to ship stuff into null. You can bypass an entire hostile region jumping right onto the station and docking immediately so even if there was suitable infrastructure for indy work it would still be much easier to import everything. Consequently, this along with the outpost changes would stimulate indy development in null since alliances wouldn't want to risk hotdrops of their supply convoys or spend the time slowboating everything in.

But I'm not sure how to fix the ship if this happened as buffing it's EHP would just make it the ideal AFK high value transport in empire. And making it faster would just about do the same. Maybe it's role could be switched to a ship transporter with a 5 millon m3 ship maintenance bay which would allow 10 fully rigged BS to be transported?

5. Remove non-rorqual mineral compresstion completely.
There is no reason for a titan to fit in a couple JF loads of 425mm rails.