The big issue of EVE: These kinds of threads.

The worst issue of EVE: Posting a GD thread in NCQA.

You totally beat me to it.

:(

I wonder if the OP realizes which forum they posted in.

Moving this from New Citizens Q&A to General Discussion.

Moving this from New Citizens Q&A to General Discussion.

Dorrim, bud, seriously.... we needed another one of these in here? Really?

This pretty much proves that the ISDs are the biggest trolls of them all.

Gankers who ignore things like wardecs, can flipping, dueling and crimewatch so that they can still put on blinders when claiming that "there isn't enough PvP/risk in hisec" and then try to scrape together the same old tired (chorus) arguments that have nothing to do with their real motivation for the only area where hisec PvP hasn't been made easier (i.e.: ganking).

These threads start to sound all the same.

Fix Herp !
Nerf Derp !

Followed by 20 pages of hurr and durr.

Nullsec can't be fixed in isolation to the rest of the game.

Your face portrays the pain and sorrow I felt when I read this thread.

So let's focus on talking about ways to fixing those problems. Let's focus on fixing the things that are actually broken for the people who live & work out there everyday and thus have to deal with it everyday.

Ok. One of the main problems with null is the unbeatable baseline that highsec provides. That baseline has to come down to more reasonable levels in terms of availability, cost, ease of use and logistics.

Fixing null requires nerfing highsec, because highsec is one of the root causes of the problems with null.

Or you could just, y'now, buff null industry to be on par or greater than that in hisec. Assuming, of course, that we're talking about that issue for real and not just looking for "moar ganking" excuses.

Ok. One of the main problems with null is the unbeatable baseline that highsec provides. That baseline has to come down to more reasonable levels in terms of availability, cost, ease of use and logistics.

Fixing null requires nerfing highsec, because highsec is one of the root causes of the problems with null.

Or you could just, y'now, buff null industry to be on par or greater than that in hisec. Assuming, of course, that we're talking about that issue for real and not just looking for "moar ganking" excuses.

Personally I think the low refinement rates and limited slots on POSs need to be brought up hisec NPC station standards as a minimum. In fact, making them work even better than NPC stations would be a good idea to offset all the expense and hassle of running a POS.

...what EVE is really like.

...facts are subjective.

A point of view isn't necessarily a fact.

But facts are still facts. Shouting "that's just a point of view" doesn't actually change the fact that they are objective facts.

Like this one:

HS industry is literally perfect. It's Cheap, Risk Free, Has Virtually Unlimited Capacity and is Convenient. Without nerfing some of those, and without either creating an infinite free mineral faucet or breaking reprocessing forever, how do you propose making Nullsec industry competitive?

CCP already knows the folly of catering towards risk-free carebear content, and show no signs of easing up on encouraging 'emergent content'.
I mean, they've iterated bounty hunting.

Did you know that in the turn of the 20th century the biggest problem that New York was facing was horse manure?

I don't propose making nullsec competitive. It works already.

The amount of nerfing you would need to do to make nullsec competitive would break the back of hi-sec industry.

I think that's why CCP isn't bothering with POS and industry upgrades because they know it leads to a dead end for hi-sec with disproportionate gains for a few people in null. There isn't a lot of upside to that for CCP from what I can see.

Its not risk free. You lay your money down and bet you will make a profit. If you are good, you make money, otherwise you lose money. Its player vs player.

It would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes. Focusing that amount of time and effort on some small singular aspect of the game and delivering only that GÇ£is what will kill the businessGÇ¥.

Yup

Read what he said.

/thread.

I did read it and responded in kind.

*edit: My link is more recent and is an official CCP statement.*

Dont let these nerf highsec threads bother you. CCP knows full well if they nerf highsec they are going to loose a lot paying gamers.. Not everyone wants to move to nullsec or lowsec even if they would get buffed seriously.

But thats the best part of eve, it has 4 distinct gameing area for different player types. Highsec, lowsec, nullsec and wormhole space. All these require little different type of players.



Nullsec is mostly about war, ok its too damn peacefull currently, but sooner or later big war will break out somewhere there.
Someone will be bored enough to consider going to war just to get change of pace for while.

Lowsec is about faction warfare and piracy

Highsec is about industry and misison running

Wormhole space is about adventure, can you survive in difficult enviroment where even logistics is challenge?



Yes i do believe nullsec and lowsec could use some more developer attention and ideas to make them more interesting. But when does CCP get arround to do it? Who knows, They have a lot of things needing fixing and iterations in work list.

Ok. One of the main problems with null is the unbeatable baseline that highsec provides. That baseline has to come down to more reasonable levels in terms of availability, cost, ease of use and logistics.

Fixing null requires nerfing highsec, because highsec is one of the root causes of the problems with null.

100% refine rates

Didn't they just add some weird ass route lines to the screen when travelling in space?
You mean THOSE kind of things take precedence over things like SOV?
They aren't all that busy, they just really could give a damn about it. They'd rather have cool color lines in space.

Ok. One of the main problems with null is the unbeatable baseline that highsec provides. That baseline has to come down to more reasonable levels in terms of availability, cost, ease of use and logistics.

Fixing null requires nerfing highsec, because highsec is one of the root causes of the problems with null.

This.

That.

Or you could just, y'now, buff null industry to be on par or greater than that in hisec.

Personally I think the low refinement rates and limited slots on POSs need to be brought up hisec NPC station standards as a minimum. In fact, making them work even better than NPC stations would be a good idea to offset all the expense and hassle of running a POS.

That.

You might as well be talking to an actual brick wall when trying to penetrate high sec layers self interest.

HS industry is literally perfect. It's Cheap, Risk Free, Has Virtually Unlimited Capacity and is Convenient. Without nerfing some of those, and without either creating an infinite free mineral faucet or breaking reprocessing forever, how do you propose making Nullsec industry competitive?

Why are so many people advocates of crapping in everyone else's sandbox because their sandbox is full of crap?

I'm for an Eve where all 4 types of space can play and have fun without advocating killing Eve for others... sheesh you peeps are butt hurt.

The fact that scamming and ganking are legit 'careers' in EVE is sad.

well. what would you say about "high-sec industry can not produce T2 ships?"

You sure it can? Yes, it can. But it is up to you (i mean 0.0 sec) to make high-sec industry out of technetium (it is used only for example). It's up to you to make high-sec out of megacite, zydrine, etc...

Goons already shown that this can be done. It only needs :effort:.

Yes, yes. It's easier to ask CCP to do something instead of :sandbox:

High sec is ok, buff null.

Highsec is not ok. It makes buffing null both futile and impossible.

they should just make highsec into nullsec so these gankers, cant hide all the time from people ie.

remove stations make players build their own stations like we do in null set up posses for safe spots etc, but have a certain area for only new players to enter and be safe from all the blah blah so they dont get run out of the game in the first week.

GǪwhich is why people get so confused when I make those suggestions, rather than the nullseccers

But then again, the only ones really advocating killing EVE for others are the bearsGǪ

Only if you want to try to make it have its own industrial base, instead of just using highsecs.
What are the actual gameplay advantages of having people making some/all of the stuff in null?

Targets.

The ability to disrupt the industrial base of your enemies.
People making their bread where they live.
etc.

To me there are High Sec only (or EVE-lite) players and "full" EVE players who play everywhere including high sec.

I have no problem with the EVE-lite players so long as they understand they are choosing to play a pvp based game.

Only if you want to try to make it have its own industrial base, instead of just using highsecs.

So people will start shipping their stuff around null in industrials instead of the jump freighters they presumably use now to bring stuff from Jita?
I mean it'd be cool if nullsec wasn't so barren looking in kills per system like it is now, but would it really kick off a decent war?

I don't care where you ******* play, if you get blown up in a frieghter it's your own damned fault.

And if you're a serious industrialist, regardless of where you play, you own and fly a frieghter to move your ****, or you're a tool who's to scared to take a loss and pay someone else to do it for you.

Yes, we move **** around already in freighters.

EVE-lite is a fairly spot on description of highsec. Its what I engage in when in a more relaxed mood, preferring to listen to tunes and tab browse a bit while playing, instead of listening to fleet comms, clicking dscan, checking local, etc.
Like a quiet night down the pub sipping a pint or two, instead of doing 5 shots then hitting the dance floor.

You can close all the pubs in town, but you won't get too many old fogies to hit the nightclub instead.

Now if there's actual industrialists who are in favour of nerfing highsec instead of people looking for targets, then I'd be more interested in what they ahd to say.
(apologies if you are actually an industrialist, perhaps that is how you acquire your lollipops)

Here's what I'm wondering about.
If nullsec industry is buffed to the point where its moderately more profitable than highsec industry, then it'll attract more industry people. Who are the new targets

Now if there's actual industrialists who are in favour of nerfing highsec instead of people looking for targets, then I'd be more interested in what they ahd to say.

Here's what I'm wondering about.
If nullsec industry is buffed to the point where its moderately more profitable than highsec industry, then it'll attract more industry people. Who may then attract targets, which will likely drive down profitability to the point they're better off going back to null.

Now if there's actual industrialists who are in favour of nerfing highsec instead of people looking for targets, then I'd be more interested in what they ahd to say.
(apologies if you are actually an industrialist, perhaps that is how you acquire your lollipops)

FYP.

You should be able to achieve higher marginal revenue in Nullsec because your costs are much, much higher than in HS.

By the way.

You're talking to a number of them.

Only if you want to try to make it have its own industrial base, instead of just using highsecs.
What are the actual gameplay advantages of having people making some/all of the stuff in null?

- properly gradiates levels of risk and reward for industrial activity along the lines of resource extraction-activities
- enforces the idea that nullsec alliance actively patrol, utilize and occupy their space
- opens nullsec to manufacturers and builders due to necessity on the part of the nullsec alliances
- allieviates direct competition between newbie industrialists and industrialists with enormous levels of experience and cumulative resources.

I've never said nullsec should have 'all' industrial activity, just the amount needed to sustain its own wars and conflicts while having enough of an efficiency/capacity advantage over highsec to make it worth doing for the small-scale industrialists

Ty for the correction.
Yes I say Natsett's post just after I made that one. I can see where he's coming from. He wants to combine the dangers of nullsec with the fun of building an industrial empire, and can't really do that at the moment, it seems.
I understand that more than "man, I wish we had more people to shoot at". Because there's other probably better ways to do that.

I assume you meant Gǣback to highGǥGǪ

Anyway, no. jBecause if you do it right, moving back to high doesn't offer any advantages. Yes, you'll be safer when you few without escorts or intel, but the price and inconvenience of that security (and lack of production capability GÇö read: lower throughput and thus lower profits) would not be worth it.

If you attract targets when the industrials move out, then great! It means the combat pilots will have fun things to do. It means that roaming around in your own space would yield viable and valuable targets to attack. You have a border to protect. It means the fights come to you, at home, where it's nice and close and comfy, rather than having to hunt for them aaaall the way over there.

Pretty much all of us are. It's just the bears that have something against it, since they have problems seeing outside their bubble and imagine all the good it would do.

Yes, that's what I meant, sorry.
So are you saying that pilots in nullsec would prey on industrials within their own space, or am I misunderstanding? I assumed they'd just be raiding the other sides industrials. Or you mean Alliance A gets to fight the raiders from Alliance B that have come to attack Alliance A's industrials? That'd be fun.
Its just that from my perspective simply looking at the Star Map kill stats, null is the quietest, while high and low have way more activity. Low especially has about the same population as null, but quite a few more kills despite not having any real industrial base to speak of. And in highsec its kind of difficult to have wars fighting over industrials when you can't deny access to resources, but they still manage to have fights anyway.

I understand that more than "man, I wish we had more people to shoot at".

So are you saying that pilots in nullsec would prey on industrials within their own space, or am I misunderstanding?

Nullsec can't be fixed in isolation to the rest of the game. OP is clueless enough that he could be Trebor's alt and out of touch with reality, implying he's Ripard. Could you post with your main next time, please?

GǪand there will be glorious battlesGǪ

Or they get blobbed by a super coalition of 15,000 people and get kicked out of null and all their industrial slots go to the enemy. That's been more the case in recent history.

Or they get blobbed by a super coalition of 15,000 people and get kicked out of null and all their industrial slots go to the enemy. That's been more the case in recent history.

No, it really hasn't. If nothing else because there are no industrial slotsGǪ

At least with a proper null backbone, there would be something easy to target to break that coalition apart. Right now, there's very little that can be done along those lines.

We don't build **** in the US, we build in 3rd world or emergent countries. Like China, where they intentially control their economy to keep the value of their currency and inflation down, so that they are the prefered place to produce goods.

Sov holders should have the ability to act like China. They can either make thier space the prefered place to build, or they can develop along another line, like an emphasis on PvE.

The only way to beat a super coalition is with another super coalition. A Goon or Test industrial backbone would be extremely difficult to harass or pick apart.

You are willfully ignoring the problem.

The only way to beat a super coalition is with another super coalition. A Goon or Test industrial backbone would be extremely difficult to harass or pick apart. You are willfully ignoring the problem.

The only way to beat a super coalition is with another super coalition.

You're willfully ignoring reality.

My point is that it won't, it would be a source of strength for the big guys, not a weakness to be exploited.

That's because the current flawed implementation only gives you one thing to attack: the fleet of that coalition. You're facing military power head-on so of course you're going to need massive military power to do so.

If they are given strong incentives to do more than stock their ships out there, you are at the same given more things to disrupt to ensure that their military power loses its staying-power. It might be difficult to harass or pick apart, but that's a vast improvement over being impossible to harass or pick apart, which is what we have at the moment.

So which do you prefer? Super coalitions that can only be attacked head on because all other ways are rendered mechanically impossible, or super coalitions that can be attacked through a number of means, many of which will require a whole lot less in terms of direct striking powerGǪ?

The point was made by Tippia that industry in null would lead to more pvp. My point is that it won't, it would be a source of strength for the big guys, not a weakness to be exploited.

I prefer not to give the super coalitions more power than they already have.

How exactly?

I prefer not to give the super coalitions more power than they already have.

So you agree then. Good.

The very vast majority of people are mining in high sec, including your enemies who are also attempting to move large quantities of goods from high to null. You dont' wait for them to get home with the goods, you go to where they're attempting to export from to stop them; that means high sec.

Fix Low Sec by nerfing High Sec and Null.

http://en.mercopress.com/2011/03/15/china-became-world-s-top-manufacturing-nation-ending-110-year-us-leadership

So "not building crap in the US" means that China's total manufacturing (including for internal consumption) only passed US manufacturing in the last couple of years.

Of course, it isn't like China hasn't been a relatively stable country (with brief interruptions) for thousands of years now, so China would be a better analog for highsec than even the US.

Perhaps more appropriate to the point you wish to make would be to compare the manufacturing capacity of a region like Africa or Central America that has been subject to more political upheaval recently to the stable economies of China, North America, and Europe?

Actually, most blockades take place on the borders of the country you're trying to blockade... just becomes a bit harder when jump drives are involved to do things that way... actually, it makes me doubt that any high sec changes would make them any easier to blockade as they could just wait inside the station until its clear and then jump. And maybe that's the real issue. The obvious response would seem to be to find out where their usual jump points are and jump with them with your own cyno, take em out there, but they likely usually jump to a POS. Maybe they shouldn't be able to jump too close to a protected area? Maybe there should be ways to intercept cyno signals and give them to your own fleet? Maybe something that'd actually work in general.

This is where the null vs high sec animosity stems. Bunch of self entiltled twats who want everything for nothing and have no problem telling the rest of us to go **** ourselves because this is how it should be. Nevermind that those of us joining player run corps in null sec, with much higher difficulty aren't being rewarded; while guys are flying around high sec half braindead and alseep, putting in no effort, crying when someone so much as targets them (oh ******* god, he bumped me!), and getting better rewards for playing on "I'm a down child difficulty".

1. One outpost per system probably has to remain for sov reasons.
2. Every outpost type gets 50 each of every industry slot type. Industry-specific outposts get twice that (up from a best-case scenario of 10 each).
3. Every outpost type gets 20 offices; Gallente outposts get twice that (up from 4GÇô8 / 24).
3. Every outpost type gets a 30% refinery; a 50% refinery is a single basic upgrade.
4. Basic industry upgrades add 50 each of every slot type (up from 5 of a specific type); Intermediate upgrades add 100 (up from 7); Advanced upgrades add 150 (up from 9). Time bonuses could probably remain the same.

Those are be bare minimum buffs required to make a single null system work on par with what you get from highsec. This still hasn't removed any of the costs or logistical hassles that come from having to bring stuff in from elsewhere. Those costs cannot be reduced to less than zero, so there's simply no way of being better than high in that regard. Thus, we have to increase the costs of highsec to give null a margin to operate within

It was more the point,

We're not here, because we're there. Everyone seems to have a problem with us not being where they expect us to be, but when people explain why we're not there they don't want to hear it.

As one model high seccer put it, "we would control the economy!!!1" Which is a bunch of bullshit. We'd control OUR eocnomies.

When was the last time some of you high sec ******* dropped a billion in a null market, buying **** made by a null industrialist? Because I've gone through over 3 billion this buying **** in high sec.

Honestly, I'm at the point of just wanting to repsond to most of these threads with a big go **** yourself to the ignorants that have no idea how **** works outside of high sec. All I see are people who want the unbalance to remain because it benefits them.

This is where the null vs high sec animosity stems. Bunch of self entiltled twats who want everything for nothing and have no problem telling the rest of us to go **** ourselves because this is how it should be. Nevermind that those of us joining player run corps in null sec, with much higher difficulty aren't being rewarded; while guys are flying around high sec half braindead and alseep, putting in no effort, crying when someone so much as targets them (oh ******* god, he bumped me!), and getting better rewards for playing on "I'm a down child difficulty".

I think a good way to buff nullsec industry would be to introduce 'super asteroids'

I think a good way to buff nullsec industry would be to introduce 'super asteroids' that give compressed minerals right off the bat. Right now, there's no way for a Max skilled hulk mining Tritanium in nullsec to get a better profit margin then someone performing the same activity with the same skills in highsec. Therefore there's absolutely no reason to mine any of the low ends in nullsec, and thus creates the logistically necessity of importing items. If nullsec industry could produce raw minerals at a heightened rate then highsec, it would then behoove people to actually go and mine there.

All these people who are proposing that we make super asteroids or better low ends or whatnot have no idea what they're talking about or why the imbalance exists.

All these people who are proposing that we make super asteroids or better low ends or whatnot have no idea what they're talking about or why the imbalance exists.

Generally one of the complaints is lack of reward for being in a more dangerous area. How does improving what is available out there not improve on that? Maybe be constructive rather than whine.

you're not going to nerf high sec mining's isk/hour unless you introduce low ends to null.

I'm not interested in nerfing high sec mining's isk/hour. As far as I'm concerned that's fine where it is.

That's not the point. The point is it's being proposed here as the simple fix that would make everything worthwhile. Well, frankly, it isn't. Sure mining in null could use some work. Mining EVERYWHERE could use work. But as far as industry as a whole goes, that needs even more work and most of these people are proposing these alternate schemes because they're scared to death of highsec getting nerfed. They don't care about the health of the game, they only care about preserving a system they benefit from.


I'm not interested in nerfing high sec mining's isk/hour. As far as I'm concerned that's fine where it is.

Pretty sure I never said that either.
You can buff mining isk/hr in null without having to nerf it in highsec.

In any case, what's going to happen is that the reduction in consumption by nullsec of highsec minerals will probably cause a decrease in their income anyway, probably offset by the loss of mineral imports from nullsec.

Quit being so damned self righteous. The often suggested nerfs to high sec won't help the health of the game any more than many other ideas out there.

Stopped reading right there. As we've demonstrated several times, you can't make nullsec industry viable without nerfing highsec industry. This is not controversial. It's fact. Don't pretend otherwise.

Let's be honest here people (even if only because you need to take a break from ISK scamming every once in a while)...

It seems you can't go 24 hours without some ganker posting another tired "nerf hisec" thread. It's tired. It's old.

Stopped reading right there. As we've demonstrated several times, you can't make nullsec industry viable without nerfing highsec industry. This is not controversial. It's fact. Don't pretend otherwise.

Good, you have identified a facet of this problem, ergo that the base refinery rate for a POS even after the upgrade is only 50%.

Quit being so damned self righteous. The often suggested nerfs to high sec won't help the health of the game any more than many other ideas out there.

Stopped reading right there. As we've demonstrated several times, you can't make nullsec industry viable without nerfing highsec industry. This is not controversial. It's fact. Don't pretend otherwise.

It was more the point,

We're not here, because we're there. Everyone seems to have a problem with us not being where they expect us to be, but when people explain why we're not there they don't want to hear it.

As one model high seccer put it, "we would control the economy!!!1" Which is a bunch of bullshit. We'd control OUR eocnomies.

When was the last time some of you high sec ******* dropped a billion in a null market, buying **** made by a null industrialist? Because I've gone through over 3 billion this buying **** in high sec.

Honestly, I'm at the point of just wanting to repsond to most of these threads with a big go **** yourself to the ignorants that have no idea how **** works outside of high sec. All I see are people who want the unbalance to remain because it benefits them.

This is where the null vs high sec animosity stems. Bunch of self entiltled twats who want everything for nothing and have no problem telling the rest of us to go **** ourselves because this is how it should be. Nevermind that those of us joining player run corps in null sec, with much higher difficulty aren't being rewarded; while guys are flying around high sec half braindead and alseep, putting in no effort, crying when someone so much as targets them (oh ******* god, he bumped me!), and getting better rewards for playing on "I'm a down child difficulty".

Can't know anything of the sort without trying.

It could just as easily be focused around how easy it is to jump goods into nullsec cheaply and safely.

In fact I'd say it'd take nerfing high sec into oblivion for your method to work if done on its own.

Obliterating the game's economy is not something that creates balance.

Why would someone from high sec go to the place where things are more expensive to buy stuff? Which really is the thing. Because null sec has low supply, they have high prices. This isn't going to magically change. An interesting part of this is a lot of the most valuable materials come from null sec, but they still bring it to high sec to sell. This isn't going to change unless high sec became null sec, which isn't a reasonable expectation no matter how much some people want it to be. And don't give me that crap about you guys not being rewarded. The most valuable stuff is in null sec and wormhole space. If that isn't a reward, then what the hell is? I'll be heading out to wormhole space and null eventually for just that reason. I'm more than for ways to prevent shipments from reaching null sec safely. Not however for ideas that instead cater to whining about not being able to do whatever they want, when they want, where they want. And that's my problem with a lot of these null sec "suggestions". While their intentions might be one thing, the results go far far beyond their intentions. It always ends up being about these massive drastic changes that change pretty much everything except what's actually broken in the first place or ends up breaking other things, and really those sort of ideas aren't worth much.

We all play different games.

Try to enjoy yours.

We all play different games.

No, we sure as hell do not. You're not only wrong, you're spouting bull that goes against everything this game stands for.

Nobody is suggesting that. Nobody wants that. God, you're dense...

Your solution greatly reduces the supply, which increases cost at a rather high rate. This supply is lost both from the refining nerf and more ships getting destroyed out in null, so even if you found what would be the balance "in theory", the increased production costs and startup cause problems of their own that you're ignoring, trying to act like it doesn't exist. These things are things that can't be easily estimated and a mistake there WILL cause massive problems. Assuming you can get enough industrials to stick around in the first place.

Higher prices are a good thing. The game is already facing heavy power creep. Making it harder to acquire "things" means more generic every day content merely from the creation and acquisition of goods.

The people who care about a hisec indy nerf are the miniscule minority of super-industrialists that produce on such a massive scale in the pure safety of hisec that the vast majority of players are priced right out of even trying to compete. Everyone else shouldn't suffer poorer game play because a few people want to have their mega empires with 14 accounts all minmaxing enormous industrial chains perfectly safe from any form of interference or new market entrants.

A thousand tears for the ~200 hypernerds that will no longer be able to price everyone else out of a major element of the game.

Your solution greatly reduces the supply, which increases cost at a rather high rate. This supply is lost both from the refining nerf and more ships getting destroyed out in null, so even if you found what would be the balance "in theory", the increased production costs and startup cause problems of their own that you're ignoring, trying to act like it doesn't exist. These things are things that can't be easily estimated and a mistake there WILL cause massive problems. Assuming you can get enough industrials to stick around in the first place.

Supply of what? Minerals? Did you consider the fact that because a really freaking huge amount of minerals goes into building ships to be exported to null that constitutes a much greater drain on supply than the loss of perfect refining?

Higher prices are a good thing. The game is already facing heavy power creep. Making it harder to acquire "things" means more generic every day content merely from the creation and acquisition of goods.

The people who care about a hisec indy nerf are the miniscule minority of super-industrialists that produce on such a massive scale in the pure safety of hisec that the vast majority of players are priced right out of even trying to compete. Everyone else shouldn't suffer poorer game play because a few people want to have their mega empires with 14 accounts all minmaxing enormous industrial chains perfectly safe from any form of interference or new market entrants.

A thousand tears for the ~200 hypernerds that will no longer be able to price everyone else out of a major element of the game.

And the majority of people who make claims like this are just looking for ways to try and villianify those against their ideas while knowing nothing about the people involved. The only people higher prices are good for are the kind of people you're talking about. The super-industrialists who stand to make a higher profit.

Too low though and you make an entire section of the game unappealing which also causes everyone problems. The most vital thing to any economy is stability.

Actually its newbs that often make the low price.

So ships will be slightly more expensive. So what?
That's not justification for keeping things the way they are.

Actually it is a justification, just not a good one.

Let's try simple causal relations here. The mechanics change so it becomes harder to mass-produce. The decline of mass-production means prices rise.

Now let's add yours. The rise in prices benefits the mass-producer. See the problem with your logic here?

Here's the part you're missing. More of the ISK in existence goes to the mass

And the majority of people who make claims like this are just looking for ways to try and villianify those against their ideas while knowing nothing about the people involved. The only people higher prices are good for are the kind of people you're talking about. The super-industrialists who stand to make a higher profit. Too low though and you make an entire section of the game unappealing which also causes everyone problems. The most vital thing to any economy is stability.

Amazing how plexing 14 accounts and using someone elses spreadsheets in some dumb video game makes some morons believe that they're suddenly smart.

People sell at whatever price they can get. The price is set by the few people who produce everything on an enormous scale, not the random noob making his first cruiser.

Sorry about the impending doom of your 14 account just-in-time-delivery hisec industrial empire. A thousand tears for your travails.

This is literally nonsensical. The prices are rising in direct correlation with the less money that the massproducer is making. They are rising because his capacity to massproduce has been hampered.

The rest of your post is just utter made-up garbage, something you have literally just invented on the spot and has no connection whatsoever with reality.

Stop posting.

Here's the part you're missing. More of the ISK in existence goes to the mass producer increasing the gap between poor and wealthy, similar to how its been working in real life, or have you not noticed the gas price situation with the oil companies continuing to rake in record profits despite the price rises being supposedly because of production difficulties? Or how despite the economy reducing how much the average person makes, there are companies that continue to make more and more. This is because despite the price changes, despite the supply, the demand remains the same so they realize they can get more out of them for less. Its logic based off a very very real situation. Reality provides the evidence just fine regardless of how it sounds.

And James. I didn't say change nothing, just not to change the thing that you think will solve everything. You'd realize that if you were paying any attention.

I'm down to my main now and that's it.

I'm glad you weep for me. Thank you for your tears.

And James. I didn't say change nothing, just not to change the thing that you think will solve everything. You'd realize that if you were paying any attention.

This isn't the real world where the poor get stuck in a system designed to keep them poor, and the wealthy get wealthier.

WTF are you talking about?

An industrialist is not someone that builds a few T1 items.

I'm pretty sure Newbie Miners/Industrialists are building a lot of T1 items collectivly.

I mean who else is newb enough to make all those items under the cost of the actual minerals.

That's the effect of the superindustrialist. Because they have no hindrances or diseconomies of scale, they can make profit on absolutely razor thin margins by mass-sourcing and mass-producing. When some random scrub tries to build a few cruisers, on the other hand, his even slightest deviation from utterly perfected megaindustrial practices means he is building at a loss.

Again, the only people who are negatively affected by reducing hisec capacity are those who have pushed the limits to absolute absurdity through perfect safety and multi-accounting.

Building 1 or a 1000 of an item below mineral cost is still a loss. No one is making a true profit by selling at such prices. (Except maybe station traders who bought the item even at a lower price).

I'm pretty sure Newbie Miners/Industrialists are building a lot of T1 items collectivly.

I mean who else is newb enough to make all those items under the cost of the actual minerals.

Except the people who paid less for the minerals or production through expert mass-sourcing and maximized skills/BPOs etc.

The superindustrialists make the margins razor thin, then a few noobs who want to have fun push it over the edge here and there. In the grand scheme, they guy producing a thousand still makes money if some of his stuff gets driven below his build cost here and there; the random scrub gets nothing ever.

That's the effect of the superindustrialist. Because they have no hindrances or diseconomies of scale, they can make profit on absolutely razor thin margins by mass-sourcing and mass-producing. When some random scrub tries to build a few cruisers, on the other hand, his even slightest deviation from utterly perfected megaindustrial practices means he is building at a loss.

Again, the only people who are negatively affected by reducing hisec capacity are those who have pushed the limits to absolute absurdity through perfect safety and multi-accounting.

And you think somehow if there is a nerf, the superindustrialist wouldn't be at a significant advantage where this is largely unchanged? Yeeeeeah... no... this is one aspect that wouldn't change without removing refining skills and the like entirely.

The quantity that you produce, whether it's 1 or 100, has no bearin gon your ability to get market value for that item. Shut up already.

I've already explained how it works. Not complicated.

I've already explained how it works. Not complicated.

I'm sick of seeing peoeple make comments abou this area of the game, that they clearly are not participating in and only give a **** because "high sec" is involved.

T2 production in high sec NEEDS TO BE LIMITTED. There's NO FAIR COMPETITION, it's entirely slanted to a single area of the game.

Except that moons are in low and especially null, as are the reaction farms which are highly profitable if you do the right reactions. Goons in particular have tech moons which pays for ship replacement and sov bills. Hi-sec corps don't have that advantage. Its not entirely slanted one way. Its a balance.

We should really keep the status quo with the current game economy because it is currently working.

Maybe you shouldn't assume what people are and aren't involved in and actually converse. Almost every time I see a statement like this, its always crying "no you're wrong!" and whining like a child rather than trying to prove it. Jumping to assumptions about what someone is or isn't involved in frankly is immature or desperation. It isn't a legitimate claim without something actually backing it up. I could have just said "none of you are economist, you don't know what you're talking about, stfu" but that would have been immature and hypocritical. That statement isn't much different. You don't suddenly hold the only right to opinion for any reason and others could very easily know about something but possess a different viewpoint from you. If you want to bash it rather than talk about it, then really, it stops being about opinions and is just being childish.

I see sort of what he's getting at about all that stuff generally being exported to high sec to be produced in safety, I just don't agree with the method of handling it.

Captain Tardbar has also argued in the past that all expansions since Dominion are good because subs are higher now than then.

I see sort of what he's getting at about all that stuff generally being exported to high sec to be produced in safety, I just don't agree with the method of handling it.

Kind of sick of seeing this.

No, we do not play different games. It's the same game, with the same rules, and the same economy.
You are not the no impact man just because you fly arund high sec, shooting rocks.

Your stance of 'cyno mechanics are the problem' is flawed because it seeks to treat the symptom instead of the cause.

Do you really think if CCP got rid of Hi-Sec people would come out of the wood work demanding to play EVE?

People would sign up in droves to shoot people like you, then do crazy things like build T1 goods and sell them on the market for higher than their mineral cost because now there is some sort of profit margin to play with.

High Sec people are ery good at seeing only that which pleases them, and with the exception of rare (in the grand scheme of things) suicide gank, the game lets them keep on believing what they want without consequence.

People would sign up in droves to shoot people like you, then do crazy things like build T1 goods and sell them on the market for higher than their mineral cost because now there is some sort of profit margin to play with.

He would unsub or never undock !!

Why don't you get all those people to start a kickstarter campaign to donate money to CCP if they get rid of hisec?

Or maybe you will have to use all that money to buy plex to pay for you 10 billion ships since no one is making ships anymore at reasonable prices.

Or maybe you will have to use all that money to buy plex to pay for you 10 billion ships since no one is making ships anymore at reasonable prices.

Not quite advocating for that but you are close, I would rather see the wardec evasion exploit removed and NPC corps to be something to avoid rather than to live in. Sounds a lot more reasonable, because it was the way highsec was designed to be.

For a guy who seemingly knows a lot about industry, you sure know nothing about market forces.

Jita isn't the entirety of the economy.

A normal trade hub in high sec isn't selling everything at production cost because there aren't 100k people trying to sell the same thing as you.

If it cost you more to build something in high sec, even at NORMAL market value, those items would still be more then profitable.

What would happen then is that jita costs would go up, because it's the large trade hubs that are primarilly where everyting is sold at near production levels, and the volumes in jita will always keep goods at near production levels.


Real simply,

Lets say "something" costs 1 million to build today. Doesn't really matter where you build it, it cost roughly 1 million.
In random system, 10 jumps from a major trade hub, that something sells for 3 million.
In the null sec, I want to sell that item for 3 million.
In Jita that item is sold for 1 million.
It gets purchased in buik because it makes sense to buy something for the same price you can build it.
It ends up in a null market for 10k over 1 million.

If you make that item cost 1.75 million to build in high sec, the guy 10 jumps from jita can still sell it for 3 million and it would be a good profit.

If you make it cost 1 million to build in null, then I'm more likely to get closer to being able to sell it for 2 million instead of 1.

Null sec can't be buffed to do that. CCP would have to make the lines pay me everytime I use them with the way things are set up today.

How do you buff a production line that has no intall or per hour cost? You can't, you can however increase the line costs in high sec.

And that's the situation that needs to happen in order for there to be fair competition.

I'm not sure if you see the cause and effect in economics land.

Jita and Hi-Sec industry keeps the prices low which helps people on fixed income (Missioners and Ratters).

If hi sec went away tomorrow the first thing that would happen is that mineral prices would go through the roof simply because miners would be unable to mine (at the rate that they do).

This would lead to massive cost increases to people who manafacture who get less of a profit. Therefore people who manufacture would have to have to sell their wares at a higher price.

People who are on fixed income (missioners and ratters) would suddenly discover their incomes are no longer able to purchase the same amount of goods as before.

Unable to replace their ship losses (also related to loss of hi-sec) without resorting to plex, many players that are on fixed income will consider quitting the game because of the fact they can no longer afford to play.

Simple.
Economics.

I'm not sure if you see the cause and effect in economics land.

Jita and Hi-Sec industry keeps the prices low which helps people on fixed income (Missioners and Ratters).

If hi sec went away tomorrow the first thing that would happen is that mineral prices would go through the roof simply because miners would be unable to mine (at the rate that they do).

This would lead to massive cost increases to people who manafacture who get less of a profit. Therefore people who manufacture would have to have to sell their wares at a higher price.

People who are on fixed income (missioners and ratters) would suddenly discover their incomes are no longer able to purchase the same amount of goods as before.

Unable to replace their ship losses (also related to loss of hi-sec) without resorting to plex, many players that are on fixed income will consider quitting the game because of the fact they can no longer afford to play.

Simple.
Economics.

[edit]

By fixed income I mean incomes that are limited simply by the static numbers CCP sets on certain tasks. When you kill a rat you earn a fixed amount of isk set by CCP. Those incomes do not change because market prices do.

Not quite advocating for that but you are close, I would rather see the wardec evasion exploit removed and NPC corps to be something to avoid rather than to live in. Sounds a lot more reasonable, because it was the way highsec was designed to be.

For a guy who seemingly knows a lot about industry, you sure know nothing about market forces.

You are asking CCP to modify the economy in your favor. You are basically saying "Make the game so I earn more money than other people."

I am saying "Leave the game alone. It works."

The game works for a large portion of the player base. The shear activity alone in Jita shows that people are participating in the current system. In fact Jita is often full on the weekends. People can't get in to make their trades it is so popular.

If you can sell goods at a higher price in Nullsec why don't you just HTFU up and haul goods from Jita to Null and make money that way.