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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air
3190
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Posted - 2013.02.22 03:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
eve is a sandbox therefore all facts are subjective. |
Tesal
206
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Posted - 2013.02.22 03:15:00 -
[32] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:...facts are subjective.
A point of view isn't necessarily a fact.
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2804
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Posted - 2013.02.22 03:26:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tesal wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:...facts are subjective. A point of view isn't necessarily a fact.
But facts are still facts. Shouting "that's just a point of view" doesn't actually change the fact that they are objective facts.
Like this one:
HS industry is literally perfect. It's Cheap, Risk Free, Has Virtually Unlimited Capacity and is Convenient. Without nerfing some of those, and without either creating an infinite free mineral faucet or breaking reprocessing forever, how do you propose making Nullsec industry competitive? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Tesal
208
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Posted - 2013.02.22 03:36:00 -
[34] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Tesal wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:...facts are subjective. A point of view isn't necessarily a fact. But facts are still facts. Shouting "that's just a point of view" doesn't actually change the fact that they are objective facts. Like this one: HS industry is literally perfect. It's Cheap, Risk Free, Has Virtually Unlimited Capacity and is Convenient. Without nerfing some of those, and without either creating an infinite free mineral faucet or breaking reprocessing forever, how do you propose making Nullsec industry competitive?
I don't propose making nullsec competitive. It works already. The amount of nerfing you would need to do to make nullsec competitive would break the back of hi-sec industry. I think that's why CCP isn't bothering with POS and industry upgrades because they know it leads to a dead end for hi-sec with disproportionate gains for a few people in null. There isn't a lot of upside to that for CCP from what I can see. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air
3191
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Posted - 2013.02.22 03:43:00 -
[35] - Quote
CCP already knows the folly of catering towards risk-free carebear content, and show no signs of easing up on encouraging 'emergent content'. I mean, they've iterated bounty hunting. |
Tesal
208
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Posted - 2013.02.22 03:49:00 -
[36] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:CCP already knows the folly of catering towards risk-free carebear content, and show no signs of easing up on encouraging 'emergent content'. I mean, they've iterated bounty hunting.
Its not risk free. You lay your money down and bet you will make a profit. If you are good, you make money, otherwise you lose money. Its player vs player.
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CJ Dashto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.02.22 03:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
Agnar Volta wrote:Did you know that in the turn of the 20th century the biggest problem that New York was facing was horse manure?
What a coincidence. The biggest problem facing these forums is also horse manure. Some people are full of it, others keep shoveling it. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2806
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Posted - 2013.02.22 03:51:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tesal wrote:I don't propose making nullsec competitive. It works already.
No, it doesn't. Nothing significant is built there that can be imported.
More to the point, CCP disagrees with you too. Twice.
Quote:The amount of nerfing you would need to do to make nullsec competitive would break the back of hi-sec industry.
Nope. HS will still automatically be risk free and convenient. If the Mackinaw has taught us anything, it's that that's a big deal.
Know how much ISK it costs to build a Rhea? ~2m. 2m in fees to build a 7 Billion ISK item. And that's on the higher end of the fees/value ratio. A Hurricane is ~1800 ISK in fees for a 50m ship.
Quote:I think that's why CCP isn't bothering with POS and industry upgrades because they know it leads to a dead end for hi-sec with disproportionate gains for a few people in null. There isn't a lot of upside to that for CCP from what I can see.
Yeah, no. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air
3191
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Posted - 2013.02.22 03:52:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tesal wrote: Its not risk free. You lay your money down and bet you will make a profit. If you are good, you make money, otherwise you lose money. Its player vs player.
That's right, which is why all forms of PvP should be an option everywhere in EVE. Making an area 'consensual pvp' makes as much sense as me deciding I don't feel like paying what a marketeer is charging, and give him what I feel is a fair price. |
Tesal
208
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Posted - 2013.02.22 04:02:00 -
[40] - Quote
POS are the key to the null industry scheme brought up by some nullsec industry enthusiasts. They aren't doing it.
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Degren
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1980
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Posted - 2013.02.22 04:03:00 -
[41] - Quote
Read what he said.
/thread. Hello again, friends. |
Tesal
208
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Posted - 2013.02.22 04:10:00 -
[42] - Quote
Degren wrote:Read what he said. /thread.
I did read it and responded in kind.
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2810
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Posted - 2013.02.22 05:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
Tesal wrote:Degren wrote:Read what he said. /thread. I did read it and responded in kind. *edit: My link is more recent and is an official CCP statement.*
Actually, it's a link to some guy quoting the CSM minutes and failing to quote CCP's clarification. (Which entirely undermines your "point.")
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2494811#post2494811
Also, fixing POSes is only one part of the changes that will need to happen to fix Nullsec industry, so even if they weren't planning on revamping POSes (which is false), what's posted on the whiteboard would still prove your claim (that Nullsec industry is fine) wrong.
Of course, any experience trying to run industry competitively in Nullsec would also prove you wrong, but v0v. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Max Doobie
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
194
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Posted - 2013.02.22 05:31:00 -
[44] - Quote
Dasola wrote:Dont let these nerf highsec threads bother you. CCP knows full well if they nerf highsec they are going to loose a lot paying gamers.. Not everyone wants to move to nullsec or lowsec even if they would get buffed seriously.
But thats the best part of eve, it has 4 distinct gameing area for different player types. Highsec, lowsec, nullsec and wormhole space. All these require little different type of players.
Nullsec is mostly about war, ok its too damn peacefull currently, but sooner or later big war will break out somewhere there. Someone will be bored enough to consider going to war just to get change of pace for while.
Lowsec is about faction warfare and piracy
Highsec is about industry and misison running
Wormhole space is about adventure, can you survive in difficult enviroment where even logistics is challenge?
Yes i do believe nullsec and lowsec could use some more developer attention and ideas to make them more interesting. But when does CCP get arround to do it? Who knows, They have a lot of things needing fixing and iterations in work list.
Didn't they just add some weird ass route lines to the screen when travelling in space?
You mean THOSE kind of things take precedence over things like SOV?
They aren't all that busy, they just really could give a damn about it. They'd rather have cool color lines in space. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
265
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Posted - 2013.02.22 08:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Katran Luftschreck wrote:So let's focus on talking about ways to fixing those problems. Let's focus on fixing the things that are actually broken for the people who live & work out there everyday and thus have to deal with it everyday. Ok. One of the main problems with null is the unbeatable baseline that highsec provides. That baseline has to come down to more reasonable levels in terms of availability, cost, ease of use and logistics. Fixing null requires nerfing highsec, because highsec is one of the root causes of the problems with null.
Only in the case of industry, because CCP foolishly allowed 100% refine rates and essentially free and infinite manufacturing slots in highsec. For the poor logistics, these are either a feature of nullsec, or a bug. In the latter case, just change nullsec. |
Kate stark
250
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Posted - 2013.02.22 09:04:00 -
[46] - Quote
Takseen wrote:100% refine rates
i'm not sure changing that would really solve anything.
all that would happen is the low end mineral supply would decrease, pushing up it's price, making high sec mining worth more isk/hour and putting the final nail in the coffin for null sec mining. if anything, the answer is increasing supply, preferably from outside high sec sources, eg spod/gneiss providing more low ends. Obvious Goon alt that's never mined a day in his life(!) |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
265
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Posted - 2013.02.22 13:51:00 -
[47] - Quote
Max Doobie wrote:
Didn't they just add some weird ass route lines to the screen when travelling in space? You mean THOSE kind of things take precedence over things like SOV? They aren't all that busy, they just really could give a damn about it. They'd rather have cool color lines in space.
If there isn't a name for this fallacy yet, there should be. A guy has some time left over after doing some major project, he can't just "go work on SOV" for a day or two and come up with any meaningful results. What he does have for, is an itty bitty little feature that is generally quite popular.
Fixing SOV in a way that minimises the amount of disruption and nullbear tears is a way bigger mutli-person expansion level commitment. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1432
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Posted - 2013.02.22 13:54:00 -
[48] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Katran Luftschreck wrote:So let's focus on talking about ways to fixing those problems. Let's focus on fixing the things that are actually broken for the people who live & work out there everyday and thus have to deal with it everyday. Ok. One of the main problems with null is the unbeatable baseline that highsec provides. That baseline has to come down to more reasonable levels in terms of availability, cost, ease of use and logistics. Fixing null requires nerfing highsec, because highsec is one of the root causes of the problems with null.
You might as well be talking to an actual brick wall when trying to penetrate high sec layers self interest.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7778
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Posted - 2013.02.22 13:56:00 -
[49] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:admiral root wrote:Nullsec can't be fixed in isolation to the rest of the game. This.
That. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1432
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Posted - 2013.02.22 13:58:00 -
[50] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:admiral root wrote:Nullsec can't be fixed in isolation to the rest of the game. This. That.
I'm not your Guy, buddy...
Crap, wrong meme, sorry.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12979
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Posted - 2013.02.22 14:37:00 -
[51] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Or you could just, y'now, buff null industry to be on par or greater than that in hisec. No, you really couldn't, unless null industry gave you money when you installed a job rather than take some away (to offer greater affordability than highsec does); unless outposts offered materials teleportation to and from POSes and the like (to offer greater ease of use and logistics than highsec does); unless they also offered one-click movement to and from highsec trade hubs (again, to outweigh highsec logistics); unless both POSes and outposts were given several orders of magnitude more slots than they currently have (to outweigh the availability in highsec); and unless outpost and unless a system security of less than 0.1 automatically halved all materials and time requirements on all types of industry jobsGǪ
GǪin other words, the only way to buff null industry to be on par or greater than that in highsec, is to make a system so exploitable that the economy collapses. The only way to be greater than perfect is to introduce legal duping exploits, and if I have to explain to you why this is a bad idea, I'm afraid you've just disqualified yourself from discussing the topic any further.
Quote:Personally I think the low refinement rates and limited slots on POSs need to be brought up hisec NPC station standards as a minimum. In fact, making them work even better than NPC stations would be a good idea to offset all the expense and hassle of running a POS. Not even remotely enough. Let's see if I can find that old list againGǪ
1. One outpost per system probably has to remain for sov reasons. 2. Every outpost type gets 50 each of every industry slot type. Industry-specific outposts get twice that (up from a best-case scenario of 10 each). 3. Every outpost type gets 20 offices; Gallente outposts get twice that (up from 4GÇô8 / 24). 3. Every outpost type gets a 30% refinery; a 50% refinery is a single basic upgrade. 4. Basic industry upgrades add 50 each of every slot type (up from 5 of a specific type); Intermediate upgrades add 100 (up from 7); Advanced upgrades add 150 (up from 9). Time bonuses could probably remain the same.
Those are be bare minimum buffs required to make a single null system work on par with what you get from highsec. This still hasn't removed any of the costs or logistical hassles that come from having to bring stuff in from elsewhere. Those costs cannot be reduced to less than zero, so there's simply no way of being better than high in that regard. Thus, we have to increase the costs of highsec to give null a margin to operate within:
5. All NPC station industrial fees are increased by a factor of 1,000. (+ù500 to bring it up to POS expense level and make it worth-while to use those even in highsec, and another +ù2 to pay for the inability to lose these capabilities).
6. PI-style import and export fees for base materials when transferring to and from NPC stations GÇö the exact tariffs can be discussed, as can whether mineral compression should work around these expenses.
Again. That's the bare minimum for the two to be on par. From there on, null still needs to be buffed a bit (or high nerfed further) to provide a good separation between the two, and we haven't even begun to touch on the horrid mess of uselessness that are POSes. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
840
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Posted - 2013.02.22 14:56:00 -
[52] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:admiral root wrote:Nullsec can't be fixed in isolation to the rest of the game. This. That. Them. |
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Shockwave Sovereign Industries
4
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Posted - 2013.02.22 15:37:00 -
[53] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Tippia wrote:Katran Luftschreck wrote:So let's focus on talking about ways to fixing those problems. Let's focus on fixing the things that are actually broken for the people who live & work out there everyday and thus have to deal with it everyday. Ok. One of the main problems with null is the unbeatable baseline that highsec provides. That baseline has to come down to more reasonable levels in terms of availability, cost, ease of use and logistics. Fixing null requires nerfing highsec, because highsec is one of the root causes of the problems with null. You might as well be talking to an actual brick wall when trying to penetrate high sec layers self interest.
As opposed to null sec layers self interest? Or low sec layers self interest? or WH layers self interest? Or pvp layers self interest? Or pve layers self interest? Shall I go on?
Can always depend on GD posters to give the typical, "Our way is the REAL Eve.. you guys are playing it wrong... Nerf their area because our area sucks.." types of post.
Why are so many people advocates of crapping in everyone else's sandbox because their sandbox is full of crap? I'm for an Eve where all 4 types of space can play and have fun without advocating killing Eve for others... sheesh you peeps are butt hurt. |
March rabbit
player corp n1
559
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Posted - 2013.02.22 15:46:00 -
[54] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: HS industry is literally perfect. It's Cheap, Risk Free, Has Virtually Unlimited Capacity and is Convenient. Without nerfing some of those, and without either creating an infinite free mineral faucet or breaking reprocessing forever, how do you propose making Nullsec industry competitive?
well. what would you say about "high-sec industry can not produce T2 ships?"
You sure it can? Yes, it can. But it is up to you (i mean 0.0 sec) to make high-sec industry out of technetium (it is used only for example). It's up to you to make high-sec out of megacite, zydrine, etc...
Goons already shown that this can be done. It only needs :effort:.
Yes, yes. It's easier to ask CCP to do something instead of :sandbox: |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12979
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Posted - 2013.02.22 15:54:00 -
[55] - Quote
Onomerous wrote:Why are so many people advocates of crapping in everyone else's sandbox because their sandbox is full of crap? GǪwhich is why people get so confused when I make those suggestions, rather than the nullseccers
Quote:I'm for an Eve where all 4 types of space can play and have fun without advocating killing Eve for others... sheesh you peeps are butt hurt. But then again, the only ones really advocating killing EVE for others are the bearsGǪ Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Zak Breen
9
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Posted - 2013.02.22 16:31:00 -
[56] - Quote
The fact that scamming and ganking are legit 'careers' in EVE is sad. |
Kate stark
252
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Posted - 2013.02.22 16:32:00 -
[57] - Quote
Zak Breen wrote:The fact that scamming and ganking are legit 'careers' in EVE is sad.
actually, it's great. it's why i play this god forsaken game. Obvious Goon alt that's never mined a day in his life(!) |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2824
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Posted - 2013.02.22 16:52:00 -
[58] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:RubyPorto wrote: HS industry is literally perfect. It's Cheap, Risk Free, Has Virtually Unlimited Capacity and is Convenient. Without nerfing some of those, and without either creating an infinite free mineral faucet or breaking reprocessing forever, how do you propose making Nullsec industry competitive?
well. what would you say about "high-sec industry can not produce T2 ships?" You sure it can? Yes, it can. But it is up to you (i mean 0.0 sec) to make high-sec industry out of technetium (it is used only for example). It's up to you to make high-sec out of megacite, zydrine, etc... Goons already shown that this can be done. It only needs :effort:. Yes, yes. It's easier to ask CCP to do something instead of :sandbox:
And if Nullsec were to stop exporting things to HS, how would it build anything? There are quite literally not enough manufacturing slots in Nullsec to build anywhere near what Nullsec consumes.
Let alone the fact that "trying to monopolize all the raw materials" != "being competitive."
There is literally no rational reason to do any serious manufacturing in Nullsec except for Supercaps (that can't be built elsewhere) and maybe mass battleships (transport costs, though eh...). None. The Game Mechanics guarantee this. And you don't see that as a problem? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
167
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Posted - 2013.02.22 17:16:00 -
[59] - Quote
High sec is ok, buff null. New CQ prototype |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12979
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Posted - 2013.02.22 17:24:00 -
[60] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:High sec is ok, buff null. Highsec is not ok. It makes buffing null both futile and impossible. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
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