It's already been said several times why nullsec can't properly be buffed without highsec being nerfed. Tippia and Malcanis can both demonstrate that part of the argument a lot better than I can, and they've posted their reasons several times in this thread.

because why shouldn't i be entitled to that?

CCP had the NPCs give it to you, nuff' said.

aww, you're no fun.

I'm really bad at spotting trolls sometimes...

so it would seem :)
don't feel too bad, i have cloaking trained to V.

Confirming you cloak your hulks.

you think i mine in a hulk, that's cute.

Nobody can be sure as its cloaked.

It's already been said several times why nullsec can't properly be buffed without highsec being nerfed. Tippia and Malcanis can both demonstrate that part of the argument a lot better than I can, and they've posted their reasons several times in this thread.

That null sec should be improved is a no brainer.

But pray tell me, why are 7k+ men alliances in null sec since it's so underwhelming and just bad?

I mean, when perma Hulkageddon became expansive enough, miners stopped mining, CCP detected prices quadruplicating in 2 months and proceeded overbuffing barges.

When incursions proved to rise inflation too much, CCP detected prices rising 10% a year and proceeded nerfing them.

When new FW proved to bring in too much income, CCP detected prices rising and nerfed them as well.



So, which indicator of null sec being unbearable is evidence that CCP is going to nerf hi sec?

- The lack of sov claimed space?

- The impossibility to establish anything but gimpy-small alliances?

- The extreme poverty of the populace in there

- The extremely high prices for high ends minerals due to lack of players to mine them?

- The dire and extreme lack of supercaps because nobody can afford them?

But pray tell me, why are 7k+ men alliances in null sec since it's so underwhelming and just bad?

When incursions proved to rise inflation too much, CCP detected prices rising 10% a year and proceeded nerfing them.

When new FW proved to bring in too much income, CCP detected prices rising and nerfed them as well.

So, which indicator of null sec being unbearable is evidence that CCP is going to nerf hi sec?

- The lack of sov claimed space?

- The impossibility to establish anything but gimpy-small alliances?

- The extreme poverty of the populace in there

- The extremely high prices for high ends minerals due to lack of players to mine them?

- The dire and extreme lack of supercaps because nobody can afford them?

There is still this horrible assumption that nullsec needs to be better at *all aspects of industry* than highsec.

I guess simply being able to do things that can't be done at all in highsec isn't good enough.

I would refer you to the story of the goose that laid the golden eggs.

equal ..

the belief that nulsec should be more than hisec is based on a flawed premise.

Null industry can never be better than Hi in the areas of safety and ease of logistics, so no matter what is done Hi-sec will always have its up sides.

There is still this horrible assumption that nullsec needs to be better at *all aspects of industry* than highsec.

I guess simply being able to do things that can't be done at all in highsec isn't good enough.

I would refer you to the story of the goose that laid the golden eggs.

And then they reversed half of those nerfs.

I should also clarify that the nerf to highsec industry would apply to stations only. In fact I think that highsec dwellers should be able to have access to many of the same facilities they do now, provided they do it through a POS.
This way highsec players can have some reasonable access to facilities (not OMFG AMAZINGLY FREE NO ASSEMBLY REQUIRED) with the risk of getting wardecced and having their facilities destroyed, and also requiring some effort to start up.

Small time highsec industrialists will probably find it easier to do their thing because of the nullsec industrialists moving to nullsec, and because of the big-time highsec industrialists moving their work to POSes.

Most people would probably see this as a buff if done properly.

But you're still simply avoiding the issue of why highsec has such advanced, high capacity facilities available to anyone at almost no cost whatsoever, with no investment, no effort, and no risk. What could possibly lead you to believe this is actually good game balance?

Things would look a lot more like VV expects nullsec to look given nullseccers descriptions of it if everyone was occupied with maximizing their ISK profits above all else. Which is an understandable mistake because that is, as far as I can tell, one of VV's main goals in Eve (which is an acceptable goal, just so we're all clear).

We'll never have the advantage of CONCORD protection. Our factories, haulers, miners, you name it will always be vulnerable to being forever destroyed or at least captured with our assets locked from our reach unless we can reclaim the station. And if we're beaten in war and lose all our space, we're done. Our little empire isn't self-sufficient anymore.

And this possibility of loss is a huge appeal for us. We should be motivated to fight to defend space so we can retain self-sufficiency, not just to keep tech moons and otherwise who cares if we lose sov like it is today.

So the possibility of loss is a huge appeal eh? Well you got it.

[a whole bunch of being mired in specifics]

I think that highsec dwellers should be able to have access to many of the same facilities they do now, provided they do it through a POS.

Small time highsec industrialists will probably find it easier to do their thing because of the nullsec industrialists moving to nullsec, and because of the big-time highsec industrialists moving their work to POSes.

Most people would probably see this as a buff if done properly.

I guess that's my cue to chime in again and remind folks that I disagree with James on this. No one who is manufacturing on site now is going to want the huge logistical chore required of living in a POS. Adding a ton of freightering to people's games that isn't currently required and adding pos costs and upkeep that isn't currently required - is no buff to high sec industry. You guys can keep calling it a buff, but it would be a game-changing nerf. And "small-time industrialists" (new players, casual players) aren't going to find any of this making their games "easier."

What. Ever.

I don't really care what is done to fix the game, (assuming the game needs fixing) but no one's going to sell me hooch and call it Johnny Walker Blue.

More available public slots is supposed to be some bonus? They're available now. And it won't matter anyway - folks would still need a pos to profit like everybody else. I don't know any better way to write it except to write that tethering a dynamic industry to a stationary object is not a buff. Nor is increasing the cost of doing business by a factor of thousands. All any of this would accomplish is reduce player fluidity and raise the bar (startup costs) on the time it takes to establish a new, successful indy corp. I really can't wait to hear from more high-sec industrialists expressing their unbridaled joy at the need for multiple pos's and hundreds of added freighter jumps per week. I'm sure they're on their way.

Annnnny minute now.

YK

I don't think anyone here would think that awful gameplay elements would have to stay awful.

It's been stated before that if high and null industry became dependent on PoS it'd have to come with a PoS revamp.

I guess that's my cue to chime in again and remind folks that I disagree with James on this. No one who is manufacturing on site now is going to want the huge logistical chore required of living in a POS. Adding a ton of freightering to people's games that isn't currently required and adding pos costs and upkeep that isn't currently required

I am not greedy, I openly share info on what I trade and how I trade it. Of course I won't spit on ISK when they come

Anyway, by the super-heavy pressure imposed by the constant spamming of this kind of threads I have some doubts people want to wait for a POS revamp.

Even if CCP would really do a POSes revamp, we are talking about:

1) Finishing T1 tiericide.
2) Finishing cap ships graphics (and maybe not just that) revamp.
3) Doing faction ships tiericide.
4) Updating the T2 ships that have been obsoleted by T1 improved ships.
5) POS revamp
6) Null sec industry changes / hi sec nerfs or whatever.

This means *years* of waiting. How do you keep them quiet for years, if they seem tired of waiting right today?

Bah, being greedy is a point of pride
(I at least try to help out people too, perhaps not as much as you do and mostly just in my alliance)

And that's CCP's question to answer! People have wanted null revamped for years and CCP has decided to work on great features like incarna, highsec wars, and crimewatch instead. Granted they haven't ignored null entirely but the changes made are very few in number and haven't really changed things out here (or have in some cases made things worse), so unfortunately they haven't gained any gratitude from nullsec in that regard.

Better hope that nullsec likes pvp enough to enjoy tiercides and other bones like attack battlecruisers while going through that.

In more optimistic news, CCP has been very effective at getting tiercide done quickly unlike everything else in this game, so *maybe* they'll get through that list faster than years of waiting. Because I may be wrong, but I suspect waiting years will hurt their bottom line.

I never avoided admitting that hi sec should be completely removed, feel free to check my past posts including in this thread.

- NPC Refineries, once nerfed at null sec quality would still provide almost no loss to people with proper skills / implants. Thus the nerf would be ineffective for anyone except new players. Do you see anything wrong with this?

Do you really believe that imposing sucky burdens (POS micromanagement that nobody likes) and expenses will gain EvE success on the long term?

Bah, being greedy is a point of pride
(I at least try to help out people too, perhaps not as much as you do and mostly just in my alliance)