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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Primary Me
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
32
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
James 315 for CSM 8. A voice for hi-sec, a voice for reason. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Tribal Band
590
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
equal ..
the belief that nulsec should be more than hisec is based on a flawed premise.
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Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1172
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Null industry should be at least comparable to High, if not marginally better. Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1046
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Primary Me wrote: Is it simply risk v reward,
yes
Primary Me wrote: or more complex than that?
no "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2147
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Of course it should be better.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
HVAC Repairman
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
468
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
lol nullbears there is no risk in null lmao Follow me on twitter |
Tialano Utrigas
Critical Mass Inc. Nexus Fleet
11
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
In terms of the risk vs reward, it should be better.
Null has its pro's and cons with risk, i.e. intel channels, the blue donut but pain in the ass AFK cloakies and BS rats do tip it slightly.
Also the lengths an alliance has to go to in order to manage that risk are huge. You need sov, which requires isk, grind and good diplomacy skills (or just a s***load of ISK).
Your average 30 man corp cant just say f*ck it lets go and mine in 0.0 today. If they did, the rewards would need to be significantly better. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1020
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
Right now, high-sec industry beats null-sec industry by such a margin that imports are more reliable and probably even cheaper than producing locally.
And I won't talk about the need for a carebear adoption program for null-sec cradles to make null-sec industry work. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008. |
Sentamon
725
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
You realize the result of this is entrenched stagnant null-sec alliances concerned with nothing but RMT profits.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13074
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Abrazzar wrote:Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
You realize the result of this is entrenched stagnant null-sec alliances concerned with nothing but RMT profits. Excellent! That means null becomes vastly easier to invade.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
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Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Shockwave Sovereign Industries
31
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
Right now, high-sec industry beats null-sec industry by such a margin that imports are more reliable and probably even cheaper than producing locally.
And I won't talk about the need for a carebear adoption program for null-sec cradles to make null-sec industry work.
Making null interact with hi-sec may be by design... and moving stuff around leads to destruction of goods which is a necessary part of EVE. |
Angelique Duchemin
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
105
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
Logistics is everything.
People are reluctant to bring large amounts of valuable materials someplace where they and probably could lose it.
Yes it's risk versus reward but the risk is total. What reward could balance that? A station that refines veldspar into Morphite? Does anyone know a good website to upload loudouts too that doesn't try to sell me plexes in between every line? |
baltec1
Bat Country
5487
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
Onomerous wrote:
Making null interact with hi-sec may be by design... and moving stuff around leads to destruction of goods which is a necessary part of EVE.
You can jump freighter goods directly out of jita to low sec and then on to null. Its rather riskless if you do it right. |
Liafcipe9000
Smeghead Empire
331
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
posting in a stealth Nerf Hisec thread. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1192
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
Right now, high-sec industry beats null-sec industry by such a margin that imports are more reliable and probably even cheaper than producing locally.
And I won't talk about the need for a carebear adoption program for null-sec cradles to make null-sec industry work.
Actually, you don't want /everything/ to be available to a single alliance. That means there are no conflict drivers. No resources you want to capture.
And if it's not all available, you then want middlemen with a 'neutral' ground for trade to get the materials you need, to build the things you need to defend your space, and to try and take other people's space. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Sentamon
726
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sentamon wrote:Abrazzar wrote:Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
You realize the result of this is entrenched stagnant null-sec alliances concerned with nothing but RMT profits. Excellent! That means null becomes vastly easier to invade.
Heh, well assuming everyone isn't allied and you can convince someone to risk their gravy train, good luck invading null when they have a near infinite supply of cheap T1 ships to throw away in defense. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Whitehound
1140
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
What does industry have to do with any of this?! The difference is in the available resources between null- and high-sec.
When you do not want players to move null-sec resources into high-sec then stop them from doing it. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13075
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Posted - 2013.03.05 14:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Heh, well assuming everyone isn't allied and you can convince someone to risk their gravy train, good luck invading null when they have a near infinite supply of cheap T1 ships to throw away in defense. Since there will be plenty of factions willing to blow them up, and since their bots won't help them in their defence (and since, as you say, they've stagnated and have no real players with any interest in or familiarity with blowing things up), it'll be quite trivial.
Oh, and no, they won't have infinite T1 ships GÇö cuts into profits don't'cha' knowGǪ
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
528
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Posted - 2013.03.05 14:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Primary Me wrote:There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Part of your problem is you do not understand nullsec industry.
First issue is: You need three stations to do in nullsec what you can do in one highsec station. The outposts are broken down into the four races; the gallente have the most offices, the minmitar has the best refining, the amarr have production slots, and caldari research. That will require 18 mill a day. There's also the problem where the lines do get backed up. Even though they're kinda private the stations don't have near enough production slots to do anything in grad schemes and numbers to support those huge fights in the news. Not to mention there are industry upgrades needed for the good belts. So that's going to require a lot of man power to maintain as it decays without use. Also the stations need to be upgraded. Each upgrade costs minerals, isk, and blue print time. Here's a list.
Second issue is double taxation. Belt ratters get charged one tax for their income per payout; what ever percent that may be. However the industrialists get double taxed for refining and then again when the alliance buys the stuff from the industrial at the discount rate (tax rate).
Another problem is the logistics. The only way to get any fuel, component, or minerals moved is through a jump freighter. Not only are they god damned expensive too buy, the fuel costs cut into any hope of profit. They're a pain to move as well. And you have to use them to import and export to jita. No way can viators handle what a jf can do in a reasonable amount of time.
Those industry upgrades, that I mentioned earlier, actually increase the frequency and quality of the hidden belt. If a neutral pops into local (which they will regularly) the first thing they do is see if they can grab a belt kill. This means that miners gotta stop what they're doing every five to ten minutes. For industry to be conducted in any quantifiable manner, they need to mine for a good bit of time, rather than be interrupted every time. This is why hidden belts rock. Some chancer isn't going to ruin your day for a lazy kill. One roaming sabre can ruin a well planned mining op pdq. When you're in a grav site the neutral actually have to put in a little itty bitty effort to scan a miner's ass down.
The real issue is the amount of minerals needed to conduct an alliance's day to day business (cta, structure grinding, etc). This is why 425mm rails are bought so much. When you see a sov jf kill look at how many rail guns are in the cargo. The 425mm is the best item for mineral compression. Mineral compression is when, during reprocessing, nearly as many minerals are taken out of the item as were put in to produce the item being reprocessed. That costs money for the rails, for the production, for the jump fuel, for the cynos, etc etc.
All this is beyond the realm of highsec industry. Where a highsec miner's biggest issue isn't being able to afk mine in a few areas or the production line.
Before you even think of mentioning moon profit know that a) not everybody has access to tech and b) the profit margins on a non power block complex reaction are around one to two percent. CCP don't make us wait another decade for a drone overhaul; DRONE OVERHAUL NOW! |
Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
529
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
P.S. I don't mean to sound like I am whining. I'm not. I don't even live in nullsec anymore I've moved onto broader horizons. I just remember what it's like. CCP don't make us wait another decade for a drone overhaul; DRONE OVERHAUL NOW! |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4125
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Posted - 2013.03.05 14:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:equal ..
the belief that nulsec should be more than hisec is based on a flawed premise.
You consider the premise that what players work hard, risk plenty, and spend a lot to build should be superior to what's handed to them at virtually no cost, no risk, and no effort in the safest area of the game? Yeah, totally flawed. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1027
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Posted - 2013.03.05 14:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Primary Me wrote:There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Well, lets look at this from the perspective of reality.
Do western counties have more industry than say African or middle Eastern countries? Why is that....what could possibly be the reason? As a business person, do you want your business in a well controlled, stable society or one that might explode into tribal warfare at any time?
So, I guess it's only the null people that want a place that can erupt into tribal warfare with +1000 spearchuckers running around like mad-men destroying everything in their wake to have better industry than hs. Your logic is impeccable!
Speaking for the rest of the universe....no thanks, we'll keep our industry in HS so the price of our ships don't fluctuate from reasonable to insane every other day. HTFU!...for the children! |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1056
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Onomerous wrote:
Making null interact with hi-sec may be by design... and moving stuff around leads to destruction of goods which is a necessary part of EVE.
You can jump freighter goods directly out of jita to low sec and then on to null. Its rather riskless if you do it right.
Should it be made more risky?
Pvp and all that class of stuff. This is not a signature. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4125
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Onomerous wrote:
Making null interact with hi-sec may be by design... and moving stuff around leads to destruction of goods which is a necessary part of EVE.
You can jump freighter goods directly out of jita to low sec and then on to null. Its rather riskless if you do it right. Should it be made more risky? Pvp and all that class of stuff. If we have industry facilities in null sec that are superior to high sec so that we would need to JF stuff in, that would actually increase the risk to us because these would be facilities that you could capture, disrupt, or destroy.
Done correctly it would be a proper conflict driver, would actually incentivize holding space, and increase nullsec self-sufficiency. It would also likely result in a lot of industry characters relocating to nullsec. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1193
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:20:00 -
[25] - Quote
Acac Sunflyier wrote:The 425mm is the best item for mineral compression.
Not quite, actually. The Gaze Survey Probe is pretty good competition for it.
Though you'll spend double (or so) the time making them. You'll get a third again the trit from it however.
Less Pyerite (around half), a little more isogen, a little less mexallon and no highends.
GSP 160m3 of minerals compressed to 5m3
425mm rail 1400m3 compressed to 50 m3
Depends what you need, of course.
(Throw in some Ultraviolet XL to make up the pyerite you need) FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Arcosian
EntroPrelatial Industria EntroPraetorian Aegis
58
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Posted - 2013.03.05 14:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
Right now, high-sec industry beats null-sec industry by such a margin that imports are more reliable and probably even cheaper than producing locally.
And I won't talk about the need for a carebear adoption program for null-sec cradles to make null-sec industry work. I agree that nullsec indy should be somewhat self sufficient at least with basic stuff like minerals and manufacturing/research slots. As of right now there isn't much infrastructure in terms of manufacturing slot availability. Outposts lack the necessary slots for even small scale production and since only 1 can be placed per system you would have to travel around or us POS.
People claim that manufacturing with POS is the way to go in null but it's too risky. This is due to POS roles severely lacking when it comes to securing who can start/cancel jobs, not to mention only corp members can access those slots. For null to be "fixed" indy wise it needs to have a basic infrastructure like high does now where anyone can use it. But there will always be some dependence on high for empire materials like data cores/faction mods. This leads into my next point of JF
As for highsec beating nullsec indy this is mainly due to the ease with which people can JF supplies into deep nullsec space. I can't tell how many threads I've read with nullsec players claiming that getting supplies into null is dangerous when they can jump right on a station and dock immediately all the way through a cyno chain to anywhere in null very quickly. To me, this undermines the development of nullsec indy to begin with as it's easier/cheaper to just import everything in.
This is also the reason we see huge blobs of caps and new ones being built very rapidly. Sure there are people out in null mining for mins but why do that when you can JF a couple loads of 425mm rails from high and reprocess it to build a titan? I'm my opinion removing JF and mineral compression would actually make it harder to build caps since it would be easier to mine in null than import from high. Making caps harder to build means people would be less willing to risk them so all the hotdrop/blob whining we see on the forums would finally stop. Null would have to develop indy or convoy supplies in and how many fights would be generated by opposing alliances trying to kill supply convoys?
There shouldn't be a problem with getting low end minerals in null with bigger rocks and instant respawning grav sites. Huge alliance like TEST/Goons/Solar should be able to field a huge number of miners since they have 5000+ people and not have to JF minerals in, much less out to jita. Null should be supplying null not exporting everything to Jita. |
March rabbit
No Name No Pain
581
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:equal ..
the belief that nulsec should be more than hisec is based on a flawed premise.
You consider the premise that what players work hard, risk plenty, and spend a lot to build should be superior to what's handed to them at virtually no cost, no risk, and no effort in the safest area of the game? Yeah, totally flawed. question is: who forces them players to risk/hard work/all this great stuff in 0.0? No one except themself and their slave-lords. Their chose this way so why whine now?
so yes. totally flawed |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1193
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Posted - 2013.03.05 14:34:00 -
[28] - Quote
Arcosian wrote: People claim that manufacturing with POS is the way to go in null but it's too risky. This is due to POS roles severely lacking when it comes to securing who can start/cancel jobs, not to mention only corp members can access those slots. For null to be "fixed" indy wise it needs to have a basic infrastructure like high does now where anyone can use it. But there will always be some dependence on high for empire materials like data cores/faction mods. This leads into my next point of JF
This.
This is one of the major issues with making stuff.
In high, you can start jobs and they're perfectly safe from your fellow corp members.
Being able to launch a POS that /only/ you can access. Or part of a POS that is just yours, that will help a lot. And it'd help with removing one of the reasons for people to have single player corps (can't trust people with your resources) FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13076
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:47:00 -
[29] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:question is: who forces them players to risk/hard work/all this great stuff in 0.0? No one except themself and their slave-lords. Their chose this way so why whine now? Close but not quite. The correct answer is simply no-one. What the game does, however, is force them to do it in highsec. This is bad from pretty much every perspective. It means that you get stuff for free; it means you don't get anything extra for making an effort; it means large swaths of game content is useless and redundant; it means there is no way to attack the industrial backbone of larger alliances; it means there is no dynamics in the industrial part of the game; it means there is no incentive to hunt for better industrial foundations.
So yes, they chose this way (doing it in highsec) and they rightfully whine about it because it doesn't make sense that the game should force them to do their work in a part of space they are not interested in living in.
Quote:so yes. totally flawed Not in the slightest. The premise that harder work shold yield better reward is at the very core in of the game.
What is flawed, however, is every single premise borne out of whatever brain-damage that causes people to believe that high should provide anything that even barely reaches above the level of being much much much worse industry than every other part of space in the game. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:56:00 -
[30] - Quote
As high sec carebear, I'd say.... of course null industry should be better than high sec.
I would not mind seeing low sec rocks produce 2x the mins of high and null rocks produce 4x high. I would no mind seeing the cost of high sec production lines increased. I would not mind seeing high sec POS tower sizes limited to small.
The biggest buff null industry is some form of defense against the AFK cloaky. Maybe something like a cloak jammer, or maybe just probes that can scan out a cloaked ship.
If those things were to accompany things I really want, like 25 hours between GT vs 24 hr, so every timezone gets equal treatment...
Heck, I may even consider leaving high sec again. Maybe. |
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