So then null is 99% self sufficient, just not as profitable as people would like?

Ahaha what no basically everything used in 0.0 is imported, it's far from 99% self-sufficient

I agree. T1 stuff is normally built where we are (i.e. ammo, ships, rigs) but everything else gets imported. Building anything T2 or above becomes a chore in null as the amount of components required for manufacture are a) often not available and b) high in price therefore it becomes a neccassity to import t2 stuff due to cost alone.

you can be self sufficient, however you've then got to look at the ratios of minerals that come out of a grav site. as i said, by nature 0.0 must overproduce on things like mega/zyd.

two things can happen, we export it to jita. bam, market price.
we separate null and high sec, no interaction what so ever; trit is now worth 30k per unit, and megacyte is less useful than a condom vending machine in the vatican. well perhaps nothing that extreme but the demand on stuff in null sec is higher than locally sourced minerals can provide with regards to low ends. (the most lucrative grav site in null has 0 veld, scord, and pyrox, or something. it's 3 of the common low ends, cba to go check but you get the point)

(i may need to edit this, forums went full ****** on me. give me a moment)
edit: meta 0 no longer drops, and iirc meta 1-4 reprocesses to less minerals or something? not quite sure on that one, i don't reprocess a lot of modules, and when i do i sure as **** don't check what i'm actually getting.

look at the chinese server, that's exactly what they do. then look at their ship prices. demand is bigger than supply, because they don't mine on serenity, they reprocess all their rat loot. or, so i've been led to believe.

Yea that's my basis for comparison. What works and what doesn't, but more importantly... why?

why what? why does nobody mine on serenity? *shrug* no idea.

That's the problem. Because it is a choice. You can produce anything in null you need to survive. The possibility is there. What remains, is the choice to wait, or plan a much more detailed oriented program to get the same things from highsec (albeit cheaper).

So you're saying that something is ok because you can just choose to suffer through it?

That's insane. Who does that? Do you?

If you were forced by circumstance to do things you'd rather not in a game (because the alternative is even more sucky stuff you'd have to do), your tune would change.

No one is asking for perfection, simply EQUAL opportunity. Hell, not even equal, high sec people get FOR FREE all the things the null industrialist want but will have to pay for in time and effort.

let's put it this way: anything can be built in nullsec, but it isn't, and the difference in efficiency is far more than 1%

the only thing I bother building in 0.0 is the frigates we need for our newbie program, simply because the quantities I need to provide are impossible to source in Jita at times and because it's more efficient to ship uncompressed minerals in a jump freighter than hulls

Ahaha what no basically everything used in 0.0 is imported, it's far from 99% self-sufficient

It's "ok" to have to take the stairs once in awhile.

And this is where your policy of avoiding the volume argument breaks down. Importing and production both have setup and maintenance costs (ISK and human). You can't produce enough to meet demand but you can import so why go through the pain of setting up and maintaining two systems at the same time when one can provide everything you need (and coincidentally do it cheaper too).

"Ok" and "broken" are 2 very different words. One is for improvement, one is for fixing.

You're insane if you think they mean the same thing =).

It's "ok" to have to take the stairs once in awhile.

The elevator was "broken" and would do nothing when I pushed the button.

"Suffering" through something that's not as cool as you want is something you opt to do. You don't have the play something you feel makes you suffer.

For instance. I HATE being camped in a station. I can logoff, use a jc, or simply wait it out.

Doesn't mean the act of station camping is broken.

But no. People want that isk. So yea I can totally agree with null needing more slots to meet the demand. Most definitely. It's there fights are even DESIGNED to be had (through various conflict drivers).

So you have the choice, and opt for the one that makes you more money. Which is fine.

But that also contradicts saying you CAN'T because it's broken and not working as CCP intended.

You either can, or can't, build the crap in null.

Null sec is forced to use the stairs everytime (it only has 3% of an elevator after all) to get to a roach infested studio apartment on the 50th floor that null sec has to pay $2000 a month for..

Meanwhile high sec gets free rocket propelled elevator service to the penthouse suite complete with half-naked Swedish maid service and all the Cavier high sec can eat, FOR FREE (and without even having to look at local).

Yea, it's that broken.

Frigates being built in nullsec is a prime example of self-sufficiency, yes

Are you trolling

Except in this case 0.0 is an apartment block with an empty lift shaft and a set of stairs and sure you could try to climb up the inside of the lift shaft but you might fall and die and only one person can climb per day so you're better off just getting used to using the stairs.

Or you could move to the other apartment block with the free teleporter.



Given the choice of performing two different tasks with the same result (a thing to sell on the market) why would you not choose the one that also makes you more profit. Your argument here is really "why don't nullsec people do stupid things to prove a point?".

Ignore Industrialists: In an alliance or corporation, industrialists are completely irrelevant and should never be allowed a voice in anything.

Does anybody really expect change?


Sins of a Solar Spymaster #88: Mittani's Maxims GÇô On Management

So you have the choice, and opt for the one that makes you more money. Which is fine.

But that also contradicts saying you CAN'T because it's broken and not working as CCP intended.

You either can, or can't, build the crap in null.

Enough with all the steps and lift nonsence, you lot are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.



Simple fact is that 0.0 badly lacks the slots for industry and simply setting up a huge POS network to get those slots wont work because you will be undercut by people building stuff in highsec and just shipping it out for a fraction of the cost.

Stuff can be built in null - fact
Stuff can be bought in empire, carted to null, and be had cheaper than built in null - fact.

However, this is kind of the same argument that you have at home. Let's say you like making pasta (as in flour + salt + water actually making the dough).

You can make pasta at home in quantities of say 5 pounds (approx 2.5 kilos) per week, because you're making your own flour (OMGWTF!), and you're already at the limits of your wheat production. The actual pasta-making process is (let's say) 3 hours from start to finish, for every 5 pound batch.

Now, you have a party coming up at the end of the week, and you're gonna be serving pasta to 60. Next week, you've promised to serve the same number of people ... and the week after that ... and so on.

You have three options --

1. somehow ramp up flour generation (i.e. mining) to cover your needs. However, you're now limited by the fact that you need 9 hours/week (on top of your day job and whatever else) to actually make the pasta. Not to mention there's a point where you're better off with

2. buy enough flour to cover your needs. You have to account for storage/transport (because 20 pounds of flour is bulky), and you're still needing to do that 9 hours of work, so you may be better off with

3. say "**** it" and just buy the damn pasta ready made from someone else. You save 9 hours of work/week, and can easily make your commitments of "enough pasta for everyone!", which leaves your "manufacturing slots" available for the more important things (cookies/cake/pie/whatever ... i.e. caps/supers/titans/whatever).

Does anybody really expect change?


Sins of a Solar Spymaster #88: Mittani's Maxims GÇô On Management

Look at the date.

Does anybody really expect change?


Sins of a Solar Spymaster #88: Mittani's Maxims GÇô On Management

Ignore Industrialists: In an alliance or corporation, industrialists are completely irrelevant and should never be allowed a voice in anything. Sound extreme? It isnGÇÖt. An industrialist is not a logistician, but a GÇÿproducerGÇÖ. Producers live in hisec in countless numbers, and anything that is built there can simply be imported from Jita with a jump freighter - by a logistician. Logisticians matter in alliances; so do financiers, diplomats, and most of all warriors. Producers do not. There has never been a war in the history of EVE which was won by an advantage in local production; the hobbits of ASCN believed their own propaganda and assured each other that production mattered, but they were crushed utterly by Band of Brothers. Take after the words of House Greyjoy: GÇÿWe Do Not SowGÇÖ. Be particularly wary of capital/supercapital producers, who are often wealthy and consider themselves to be above alliance rules. Alliances have no need of GÇÿindustrial wingsGÇÖ, GÇÿindustrial directorsGÇÖ - none of it.

None of these leads to how industry is broken "because of highsec".

I do agree that nullsec needs more slots. The efficiency needs to be ramped up a notch or 20.

is it really an april fool's thing?