I think the answer to this question is that beams (and possibly energy weapons as a whole) need to be visited with a full balance pass. This is not a problem that should get fixed through ship design, it should get addressed through a weapon system rebalance. As we are now finishing up balancing most of the 'core' ships in the game we will be looking to add more module balancing and I would think weapon systems would be near the top of the list.

The Armageddon/Dominix debate seems to remain heated, but I think its a really good sign that there's people arguing both sides so passionately, and we'll just have to see how it shakes out once it goes live.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll keep reading. And as I've said before, we will watch all of these after they go to TQ and make changes if things aren't working out well for a certain ship or race.

Apoc:
UPDATE: Based on feedback concerns about Apocalypse cap I've given back a bit of its total cap pool, bringing its cap recharge up to almost 7cap/sec. Its also gained just a bit of armor hp. We will keep on eye on the cap situation throughout testing.

Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6000(-211) / 7000(-500) / 7000(+359)

These changes confuse me. "Increased Armor HP" and yet it has 1.5k less Armor than the other Amarrian Battleships.

It will also be Amarr's Attack battleship, meaning it has received increased base speed, agility, lowered signature resolution, and slightly lowered hitpoints.

I think the answer to this question is that beams (and possibly energy weapons as a whole) need to be visited with a full balance pass. This is not a problem that should get fixed through ship design, it should get addressed through a weapon system rebalance. As we are now finishing up balancing most of the 'core' ships in the game we will be looking to add more module balancing and I would think weapon systems would be near the top of the list.

The Apoc is not "supposed" to use beams. I don't really know how you took that from my description which says "It is also getting an increase to power grid and CPU so that beams are a more viable option in the future." All I meant to say was that we increased fitting while lowering PG need for beams and so hopefully it would be more viable now than before. We know beams still need work on their own, as I said above.

First of all, again, it isn't "supposed" to use beams. Even if it was, you really think increased tracking will never be relevant?

As for why tracking in general, I think there's a lot of reasons. Its makes the Apoc stand apart from the other two Amarr battleships in a very distinct and interesting way. It provides a niche for the Apoc in multiple environments. It offers a strong option to counter some of the most popular ships in PVP meta right now (attack BC and Tech 3 cruisers). It gives players who want to use Amarr battleships in smaller groups at closer ranges a new tool. It fits the idea of the attack role well. On and on.

Overall most of the concerns here seem related to cap or more specifically, beams.

The Armageddon/Dominix debate seems to remain heated, but I think its a really good sign that there's people arguing both sides so passionately, and we'll just have to see how it shakes out once it goes live.

I could not care less about Dominix. When changes to Amarr BS go live, I cancel my subscription.
I'm NOT playing this game for your entertainment.

To be honest, we aren't really much worse off than we used to be.
The Abaddon is still going to be used in fleets the same as it used to be, with 1400's, like always.
The Geddon doesn't exist, but the Navy Geddon is unchanged, and even if the Geddon still had the same bonuses, price would be going up significantly due to extra materials. So the Navy Geddon is much more reasonable in price anyway compared now. And was just better at the same job.

the only glaring issues with the apoc i can see so far is the severe lack of capacitor while firing its guns other than that it could use a bit more armor, just a bit. if those two things can be fixed i can see it being a fairly solid ship.

You find the bonuses useful over an Abaddon?

Anyone noticed on minmatar thread how Rise changed ship role on tempest? There is still hope for amarr ships

To be honest, I'm not used to repeat my statements twice. If you're trying to placate me by telling that "but not much have changed... yet", it's a futile effort. Sooner or later, they drag every ship from under me, and what I would be flying?

I agree wit this sentiment, I am going on a strike of sorts by not flying amarr battleships until energy weapons have their full balance pass and cap/pg problems are resolved.

However CCP get their metrics, they will not be getting them from me.

To anyone who is very sad to see the old Armageddon go, I encourage to you consider that if left the same, it would have been even more crowded by the Abaddon as a result of the price adjustment than it already was.

However, could the developers be forward thinking people designing these ships for the new mechanics they are working on?

Tonto, if/when Energy weapons get a real fix (Which really only needs the percentages we have been saying here and in the Energy Weapons thread), the Apoc will actually be in a pretty good place.

If/when they "fix" lasers, Apoc will still be as bland as other two. None of the new BS can compete with old Armageddon, not even remotely.
Bottom line: Amarr is shafted. However you slice this sentence, it won't change.

Go fit a dual plated mega pulse geddon on TQ, then go fit a dual plated mega pulse apoc on sisi.

You know, you making little sense? If you bring TQ 'geddon to the same PG/CPU, as Apoc/Abaddon, it will allow this fit easily.

And what exactly you want to track better? Frigates?
Don't try to fool me here, you'll fit pulses with conflag on it.

We took it from ship bonuses. Because the opposite makes little sense.

Yes, we really think.

Blind claim, not supported by anything but delusions, as it's evident from the whole thread of criticism.

So... a 60km Mega Pulse Laser II (firing Scorch) with a tracking bonus isn't good enough? Why would you ever fit beams on an Apoc when you can use that? (well, maybe if you can't use T2 guns for lolscorch) Pulse apocs are still really good when engaging down and nothing has changed except they burn through cap faster.

I've been trying to come up with an armor rail ship which is at all competitive... and the Megathron has serious trouble matching the pulse Apoc against anything smaller than a battleship, especially now that they both get tracking bonuses.